mackay 66 - amazon s3transcript_mackay+66.pdf · 66-question customer profile. ... because i did a...

2 © 2011 The Mackay Roundtable

There is a crippling lack of knowledge about customers in the sales force, as well as a lack of know-how

Hello to all of you. Today’s topic is the Mackay 66 — which could

well become your most powerful secret weapon in customer relations.

Ask any sales rep or any sales manager:

“How well do you know your customer?”

“Like the back of my hand.” I’ll bet you dollars to doughnuts, that’s what

you’ll hear from each and every one.

And, I’m here to tell you that most businesses:

l Don’t know squat about their customers.

l Or, if they know it, they don’t know how to use it.

That crippling lack of knowledge or know-how is the crux of the

following statistics, and I quote:

l “A dissatisfied consumer will tell between 9 and 15 people about

their experience. About 13% of dissatisfied customers tell more

than 20 people.” [Source: White House Office of Consumer Affairs,

Washington, DC]

l “86% of consumers quit doing business with a company because of a

bad customer experience, up from 59% 4 years ago.” [Source: Harris

Interactive, Customer Experience Impact Report]

l “For every customer complaint, there are 26 other customers who

have remained silent.” [Source: Lee Resource Inc]


People buy from other people because of people skills, chemistry, and likeability

l “It takes 12 positive service experiences to make up for one nega-

tive experience.” [Source: “Understanding Customers” by Ruby

Newell-Legner]

l “91% of unhappy customers will not willingly do business with your

organization again.” [Source: Lee Resource Inc.]

l “Attracting a new customer costs 5 times as much as keeping an

existing one.” [Source: Lee Resource Inc.]

Knowing your customer better can — I firmly believe — obliterate

60-75% of these problems.

Here’s how…

Why do people buy?

If you are in sales — and all of us are selling something from products to

ideas — you should ask yourself that question every morning.

Why do people buy?

For many it’s because of the people who sell to them. That’s the reason

far more often than we may think.

Of course, you have to deliver. And your product has to perform, as well.

But if all other things are equal, people buy from other people because of

people skills … because of chemistry … because of likeability.


You can best spend your time studying your customer

If that’s true, how do you best spend your time getting customers to trust

you and to like you?

You guessed it: By studying your customer.

What is the sweetest-sounding word in the English language?

The answer, of course, is the sound of your own name on

someone else’s lips.

Make that impression even sweeter.

Bolster saying that name with a positive personal reference to another

person’s:

l family,

l hobby,

l personal cause …

l whatever his or her #1 hot button is.

Meet this salesmanship test, and you not only get the order. You get all

the reorders, too.

It doesn’t matter what you’re selling. It could be:

l A proposal for diesel locomotives.

l A proposal for urgent care clinics.

l A proposal for matrimony and wedding bells.


We want to know what a customer is like as a human being

The first rule is always: Know your customer.

A number of years back, we invented a product at Mackay Enve-

lope Company. As you might have guessed, it wasn’t an envelope. It’s a

66-question customer profile. We continue to use it today. We require all

of our salespeople to fill one out on each customer and prospect.

You wouldn’t believe how much we know about our customers. The IRS

wouldn’t believe how much we know about our customers. And I’m not

talking about their tastes in envelopes either.

We want to know what a customer is like as a human being, based on

routine conversation, observation and third-party research.

l What does he or she feel most strongly about?

l What is a customer most proud of having achieved?

l What status symbols and trophies decorate their office?

l What turns this human being on?

Swim With the Sharks Without Being Eaten Alive was my first book and

a New York Times #1 bestseller.

Why was it such a hit? Because I did a Mackay 66 profile on nearly

every single person who interviewed me.

Every single interviewer in TV, radio and the printed media, including

Larry King and Oprah Winfrey, who was in a state of shock when I rattled


If you are interviewed, write a note to your host that focuses on their success, not yours

off 25 personal items about her past. My allotted time was 15 minutes.

However, she kept me on her show for the full hour.

I might add thanks to the Mackay 66 and Oprah, I sold 50,000

hardcover copies that week.

These people praised Sharks to the moon because I schmoozed with

them before the program. I talked about their hobbies and their kids when

we went to break for commercials.

When the interview ended, I asked how their spouse’s current job was

going at Abercrombie International. By the way: Had they been to their

25th reunion at Slippery Rock College? Every day through a 35-city tour, I

repeated the same drill … over and over and over.

To top off each contact, within 24 hours of my appearance, I sent a

forget-me-not letter. That note focused on THEIR spectacular success and

not mine. This bread-and-butter note thanked them for the interview. It

also spread plenty of butter ... And it was heavy on the butter.

On Power Lunch on CNBC, the interviewer actually reprised our conver-

sation on the air talking about my letter. He said it was the first time in his

career that he had gotten a thank you note from a guest on the show.

I was filling up the “social” time in these media interactions. But it

wasn’t with dead air. It was with personally influential dialogue that won

me points.


Use the information you learn to build a long-term relationship

Transfer the same principle to sales. That’s where I learned this skill to

begin with.

Studies have shown that salespeople and customers or potential customers

can’t talk about business 100 percent of the time. It’s not possible.

Furthermore, it’s just not appealing or entertaining.

In fact, reliable data says that most interchanges between salespeople

and customers are 30-35 percent business and 65-70 percent social.

I repeat: People buy from other people because of likeability, chemistry

and people skills. Of course — you must perform. If you don’t perform,

you can toss the Mackay 66 out the window.

Do it sincerely and use the information to build a long-term rela-

tionship. That is what you are really after, not some victory in a single

crowning encounter.

Perhaps you’re asking yourself: “Is knowing and mentioning personal

information an intrusion?”

Our experience is just the opposite. Certainly not if you use it in a

friendly, positive way … with total sincerity.

Remember:

People don’t care how much you know about them once

they realize how much you care about them.


Buyers come prewired to regard your proposition with suspicion andcynicism — you must neutralize those feelings

Sophisticated, resource-deep businesspeople blunder every day by not

knowing their customers.

Armed with the right knowledge, all of us can outsell, outmanage,

outmotivate, and outnegotiate our competitors.

Am I overpromising?

Not if you believe, as I do, in the value of information.

All of us gather data about other people — especially people we want

to influence. The only question is how well we understand it and what we

do with it.

For anyone who still feels that this kind of reconnaissance smacks of

Big Brotherism, remember the truth about buyers: They come prewired to

regard your proposition with suspicion and cynicism.

That’s their job.

It’s your job as a salesperson to neutralize these feelings so your product

or service can get the fair hearing it deserves. If selling were just a matter of

offering the low bid, then the world wouldn’t need salespeople. It could all

be done on the Internet.

The Mackay 66 is designed to convert you from being an adversary to

becoming a colleague of the people you’re selling.

People, not product specs, will always be the key that determines who

gets the order.


The Mackay 66 will just help you organize your information in a way that will make it more useful and accessible

Remember what management legend Lee Iacocca said, “Anyone who

doesn’t get along with people has earned the kiss of death … because that’s

all we’ve got around here are people.”

That’s exactly why I developed the 66-question customer profile. Yes,

what we’re talking about here is filling out a form. And it does not come

as news to me that people don’t like to fill out forms. Salespeople are worse

than most that way.

Salespeople are Big Picture types. They aren’t nerds or techies. I under-

stand that. I accept that. This form is designed with those attitudes in mind.

Good news: Collecting this information is easier than you might think.

So don’t be turned off because a form is at the heart of this discipline.

It isn’t that tough to use. You’re probably doing a lot of it already. The

Mackay 66 will just help you organize your information in a way that will

make it more useful and accessible.

Although most of the information will come from personal contact with

your customer and from observation, you aren’t the sole collector.

You have plenty of other resources:

l Customers

l Suppliers

l Banks

l Internal database


Using the 66 helps protect your accounts if salespeople leave your company

l Colleagues

l Assistants

l Receptionists

l Conventional media

l Internet database. That’s huge and growing every day. It includes:

n General press

n Financial press

n Trade press

n Trade associations

n Special reports

n And, the power of the hidden Web … the Invisible Web …

the Deep Web. This last factor is nearly unknown and abso-

lutely enormous.

And I could go on and on.

In our shop, each of us scans the local papers (hard copy and online),

The Wall Street Journal, and The New York Times daily. Anything that

relates to our top twenty customers is a Must Read for anyone concerned

with the account.

The value of the Mackay 66 isn’t limited to today’s salespeople. As

in any business, salespeople leave. The 66 is a way to prevent their

accounts from leaving with them.


It’s a changing world, so the 66 has to be updated in a disciplined, continuous way

It gets their successor up and running with a decided timing edge.

That’s a much shorter learning curve than would be necessary if the

salesperson had to start from scratch. It’s all there in the internal database.

The Mackay 66 has also become our nerve center when salespeople and

sales managers are discussing customers.

Two cautionary notes: It’s a changing world, so the 66 has to be

updated in a disciplined, continuous way.

I don’t care what system you use — Microsoft Outlook, ACT, Gold-

mine … whatever — but you have to use some system for your key

contacts and customers. Before you walk in to see a customer, make sure

to look it over.

If you are talking to that person on the phone, make sure this informa-

tion is at your fingertips.

For the first ten years we used this process, I would take home the paper

files on our top ten accounts every Sunday night. I would drill the informa-

tion into my head until I knew it by rote. I don’t do that anymore. Once

a year our marketing group and our top operating people sit down and

review the material with special emphasis on the final page. This analysis

of common customer issues is the launching pad for our planning process.

As I said, the Mackay 66 is one of our handouts today. So let’s

actually look at the form and see how it’s organized. What kind of data

does it capture?


Knowing specific details about your customers is important because timing is everything

Let me share some stories about the Mackay 66 in action. I won’t cover

all the points — some of which are pretty obvious. Instead I’ll focus on a

sampling for special comment.

Look, for example, at question 5, “Birth date and place ___________

Hometown ___________.”

“So,” you say to yourself, “Mackay counsels sending customers a birthday

card? Big deal.” Wait a minute.

Sure, the customer gets a birthday card. But there’s more.

Remember, as kids we had an intuition never to ask for something if our

folks were in a terrible mood. But when we sensed they were content, we’d

hit them up for whatever the market would bear.

Timing is everything.

At our company, our customers’ birthdays are part of the data base.

They get a birthday card, of course. But guess what? That buyer also gets

called on in person — and asked out to lunch — when that special day of

the year rolls around. You wouldn’t believe how much business we write

up on our customer's birthdays.

As for the hometown of the buyer — it’s the source of an endless supply

of email clips to forward. Smart managers once used clipping services to

track this kind of press.

These days all you need to do is to file the right settings on your online

server, and you’ll have the daily dish in Jackson Hole or Hialeah. By the


Use a tool like Google Alerts to compile endless hits on hometowns or people or companies

way, I urge you to use a tool like Google Alerts to compile endless hits

on hometowns or people or companies … like Philip Tirone does on all

Roundtable members.

Armed with knowledge about Hometown, U.S.A., you have a subject

for customer small-talk eight days a week.

EducationQuestions 7-12. One day I called on a buyer who, it turned out, had

graduated from the same high school I did — about fifteen years earlier.

We both had the legendary Miss Malmon for English.

The yarns we told were fabulous. The envelopes he bought were even

more fabulous. I figured out that this buyer has purchased over 150 million

envelopes from me. I wonder why.

FamilyQuestions 13-19. I luckily overheard a buyer on the phone arranging to

have her fourteen-year-old son driven to his wrestling event. Obviously, I

asked about the son.

I brought myself up to speed on amateur wrestling. I learned all the big

time names. I mentioned my interest in wrestling to the buyer — and got

my first order the same day.


The most important reading a salesperson can do is to read the walls of his prospect’s office

Business BackgroundQuestion 22. Any status symbols in the office? is a good question to key

on. I called on a Fortune 500 company in New York.

I’ve learned that the most important reading a salesperson can do is to read

the walls of his prospect’s office while waiting for her to get off the phone. In

fact, you can’t work at our company unless you can read upside down.

On the wall was a framed picture of the company president awarding

the buyer a certificate for writing a position paper on unemployment. A

week later I sent her a book on unemployment. The orders have never

stopped coming.

LifestyleQuestions 40-57. Tickets to the game are always a good ice-breaker,

particularly if you go with the customer. And don’t take it for granted we’re

just talking about men here.

I’d been calling on a purchasing agent in Chicago for three years without

her ever once even asking me to quote a job. Then I found out she was a

professional wrestling fan.

I popped into her office, told her I had great contacts for ringside tickets

to — yes, this was many years ago — Gorgeous George. Would she care to

go or have me make the tickets available so she could go with someone else?

It was a real struggle for her to accept.


Surf the Internet to research topics that are important to your prospects

This prospect wasn’t naïve. She knew I was trying to capture her busi-

ness. But the lure of ringside seats was too much to resist. Though she

decided to accept, she insisted on paying for the tickets.

Three years of hard work with no results. To be truthful, it took another

year before she even asked me to bid a job and two more before we got an

order. Six years.

But it was the Mackay 66 that did it, and the business we’ve done

since then made it worth the wait.

A footnote: Gorgeous George was an outrageous motor-mouth during

the Golden Age of wrestling in the 1950s. Before a bout, his valet would

spray the ring with a huge atomizer of Chanel #10 disinfectant.

“After all, why be half safe?”

And, Gorgeous George was a relentless, flamboyant self-promoter. His

crowd-drawing banter had a profound effect on a 19-year-old kid from

Louisville. The fearless young boxer met Gorgeous George by chance in a

Las Vegas radio station. Yep, you guessed it … his name was Cassius Clay,

who later became Muhammad Ali.

Back to the principles of the Mackay 66.

If I had been making the same prospect approach today, it would have

been by Internet. I’d regularly be surfing the Web for hot data on pro

wrestling. (There are 225 million entries for the word “wrestling” on the


Come to meetings prepared to face your prospects objections

Internet.) I’d find out the latest scoop on stars like Ric Flair and TripIe

H. I’d be bouncing attention-getting emails or Tweets to the prospect off

the turnbuckles!

Questions 32 and 33 get at attitude and buying sentiment. In the last

couple of years in this volatile economy, many buyers have proven skittish.

They’re nervous about making long-term commitments. If you know

this in advance, you can better arm yourself with reassuring data.

If other buyers in town are more bullish, you can emphasize their more

upbeat outlook.

Point out the hazards of playing things too close to the vest: risks like

inventory shortages and tough supply chain logistics.

The central point: Don’t dream this sort of song-and-dance up on the

spur of the moment. Come to meetings prepared to face these kinds of

objections. Then offer constructive solutions.

Intelligent use of the Mackay 66 enables you to hop up one decisive

level in the way you interact with customers. You no longer are just a sales-

person. You are a specialized business advisor.

That’s just the niche you want to occupy.

Take a look at question 52. The more motivated your customer is, the

more important that question becomes.


Always look for ways to make your customer look good in the eyes of others

Always look for ways to make your customer look good in the eyes of

others. Especially significant others, and I mean that in the broadest sense.

I can recall a marketing executive who was a customer for direct-

mail ads. He had the creative team under his wing. I could see in a flash

that the new layout for his latest mailer was miles ahead of where this

firm’s design standards had been.

The exec also labored under a CEO who was unsure if the new graphics

were too bold for this traditional firm. As soon as the new flier was released,

I had it hand-delivered to the head of a prominent ad agency.

She loved the design work — as I knew she would — and fired an e-mail

back to me to say so. I, in turn, zipped this memo to the CEO and copied

the marketing executive.

That turned me into a pillar of support, at a time of need. A decade of

steadily growing and highly profitable mail-order business resulted. In

my opinion, that single Mackay 66-driven intervention was the reason

why.

Take a peek at question 60. Habits are the hardest thing in the world to

break. Those who have stopped smoking know what I mean. Incidentally, I

quit smoking at the age of 5. I had one cigarette behind our garage.The struggle with dieting and exercise is a daily challenge for most of us.


If you want a customer to change a habit, you better be prepared to support them in the change

Remember what Mark Twain said: “Habit is habit, and not to be flung

out of the window by any man, but coaxed downstairs a step at a time.”

If you want a customer to change a habit, you better be prepared to

support them in the change:

l Make the delivery or service terms easier.

l Deploy your own people — or even yourself — to help support the

customer on off-hours and weekends — any time when the customer

might feel alone.

l Cheerlead and applaud the change … and the positive effect it is

having on your customer’s customers.

Jump ahead to the last page, the most important part of the Mackay

66. Customers are remarkably willing to share their management’s goals

and issues with you. But, salespeople being salespeople, often just ignore it.

Then we have the all-important Question 66:

Does your competitor have more and better answers to the

above questions than you have?

I can’t tell you how often I hear people shrug that question off:

“Great question!” they say. “Beats the heck out of me how I answer it.”

The fact is managers get cues — often indirect ones — all the time. At a

trade association seminar, a buyer will comment offhand about the awesome

golf outing staged by Competitor A.


Awareness of the information in the 66— and knowing how to use it — are what distinguish the pros from the losers

Competitor B will be praised by a young mother for its socially advanced

childcare program. (You know where her heart lies, and given the choice,

where she’ll put her business.)

At a United Way kickoff, someone will comment that they really liked

a couple of long-time staffers that no longer seem to be on your payroll. Is

that an innocent comment?… Or, a hint that your firm has a rap sheet for

being a revolving-door employer?

The tragedy is not that negative comments are made. The great tragedy is

when these observations don’t find their way back into the 66 profile.

That’s where teamwork is so essential. We all swim in huge, surging

streams of information these days. In companies that survive, people really

believe they have an obligation to cover their coworker’s back.

This responsibility isn’t articulated in job descriptions. But it is inde-

scribably important.

Awareness of the information in the Mackay 66 — and knowing how

to use it — are what distinguish the pros from the Willy Lomans —

those losers immortalized in Arthur Miller’s play Death of a Salesman.

So much for theory. Now I bet you would like to hear the kind of

comments that go into a flesh-and-blood Mackay “66.” So I decided to do

one on a member of the Roundtable, our own Matt Ide.

Let’s say I’m going to call on Matt Ide to sell him something. It

doesn’t matter whether it’s securities, insurance, nuts and bolts, enve-


You need to prepare to win and do your homework

lopes, widgets … whatever. You see, there is no such thing as a cold

call at MackayMitchell Envelope Company. We prepare to win and

do our homework. So before we make the first call on someone, we

know an awful lot about that human being.

Now in Matt’s case, yes I know him, and I have his Roundtable applica-

tion, so I have a head start. But let me give you the short skinny on Matt

and the homework I have done. And remember, when you call on a first-

time buyer, he or she will not know the information you are armed with.

Matt was born and raised in Massachusetts. He lives in Hollis, New

Hampshire. His birthday is Feb. 22.

Matt graduated from …

l Wayland High School in Wayland, Massachusetts

l LeTourneau University.

He also attended Boston University and University of Massachusettes.

Matt has Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees in Electrical Engineering. He

participated in a talent show and also intramurals (track and cross country).

Matt is married to Beth. Their anniversary is Oct. 24 (which happens

to be my birthday!)

Matt and Beth have 4 children …

l Megan, age 15

l Jeremy, age 13


With the Mackay 66,you never have to go on another cold call again

l Becca, age 11

l Joshua, age 9

Matt likes to …

l Fly kites (He owns many of them)

l Go sailing

l Water ski and snow ski

l Read business books

l Fly (He is a pilot)

Matt puts on magic shows and runs a community magic club for kids, ages

7-14. He’s active in his church and leads various events to aid in making

better marriages. He loves to find bargains.

Matt follows all the New England sports teams …

l The Red Sox

l Bruins

l Patriots

l Celtics

He also enjoys watching the Olympics and especially likes ice skating.

Matt is a very healthy eater. He eats a lot of salads. He also likes fresh bread.


You should know personal details about your prospect, such as their likes and dislikes, and details about their family

His favorite place for dinner is the Wayside Inn in Sudbury, Massachu-

setts, where he enjoys lamb, lobster pie, salmon and prime rib.

Beth enjoys …

l Exercising (She is an aerobics instructor.)

l Reading

l Raising four active kids

The kids participate in many activities, including …

l Soccer

l Cross Country

l Tennis

l Chorus

l Drama

l Youth groups

Matt’s current company is the Local Search Company where they help

businesses get more customers from the Internet, using local search on

Google, Facebook and mobile websites.

His second company buys second mortgages and helps homeowners

restructure their debt.

Matt also created and started Merchant Express in 1999 and sold it in

2010. This was a credit card processing business on the Internet.


Mackay Mitchell Envelope’s salespeople earn nearly double our industry’s national average mainly because of the Mackay 66.

Prior to that he was a research scientist and senior engineer at MIT

and Lockheed.

Matt is …

l Smart

l Creative

l Friendly

l Family-oriented

l Highly ethical

And, that’s just the short list! Not only do you understand a bit better

how Matt Ide ticks. You also get the drift of why he was such a perfect

candidate for the Roundtable.

Now you know how it works. The question you’re probably asking is,

“Does it work?”

The proof is in the envelope. Not the MackayMitchell envelope. The

pay envelope. MackayMitchell Envelope’s salespeople earn nearly double

our industry’s national average. There’s one main reason: the Mackay 66.

What is the 66 really? It’s a lubricant that:

l opens doors,

l keeps doors open in stressful times,

l and, opens doors w-i-d-e-r to other and bigger opportunities.


Without trust, you can’t do business

The more you know about that customer and the better you put it work,

the more you level the playing field versus any competitor.

This cannot be accomplished without mentioning this single, all-impor-

tant, 5-letter word. It takes center-stage once again. The word is T-R-U-S-T.

Without trust, you can’t do business. Period. End-of-story.

Today we have the privilege of hearing from Ken Blanchard, one of the

great icons in management thought. Ken Blanchard’s One-Minute Manager

revolutionized management thinking forever.

One-Minute Manager has endured as Ken Blanchard’s first word

on management … but hardly his last.

He has authored or co-authored over 30 best-sellers. He and I go back

such a long way, our bond must be rooted in pre-history!

KEN BLANCHARD

Harvey:

Ken:

Ken, good morning. First question, you have known about

and used the Mackay 66 for decades. How do you believe this

tool helps anchor trust in customer relations?

Well, you know, Harvey, you’ve met Ichak Adizes, who is a

real character. He used to teach at UCLA. He used to be

with us in YPO. He said that trust — respect goes with trust.


In order to earn your prospect’s trust, you must respect them

Harvey:

Ken:

He always said, The respect is you face the person. You really

care about that person. You want to hear their opinion. If

you respect them, what’s interesting is they’re willing to turn

their back on you because they trust you, because you mean

them no harm. If you don’t respect them, you don’t listen to

them, you don’t care what they think, then they don’t trust

you at all. They’ll watch you like a hawk.

What’s so great about the Mackay 66 is it really shows a

person that you really respect them because you are listening

to them; you care about them; you want to find out about

them; and people love to share, if other people are really

sincerely interested.

Well, thank you. I’ve always said, to just piggyback on that,

that caring is contagious, help spread it around, which is also

what you’re saying.

Next question, Ken. You celebrate feedback as the breakfast

of champions. How should managers build feedback into

using a tool like the Mackay 66?

Well, feedback really means that somebody has shared some-

thing with you, and you’ve heard it. So often, when somebody

gives you some feedback, you argue with them and all.


With the Mackay 66, find out from customers about things that are important to them and then feed that back to them

For example, I went to a Ritz Carlton years ago, and they had

Pepsi after they were bought by Marriott. To me, Pepsi tastes

like rust. I said, “I really like Diet Coke.” And they said, “We

apologize, but we’ll get that as soon as we can.” I want to tell

you, pretty soon there was a knock on my door and there’s a

guy at the door with some Diet Coke. Now, whenever I go to

a Ritz Carlton and I go up to my room, if they have an icebox

in the room or anything, there’s always Diet Coke there. So

I said, “Wow, those people really listened.” They didn’t argue

and say, “I’m sorry. We have this agreement,” and so and so.

So I just love that.

What you’re saying with the Mackay 66 is to find out from

customers about things that are important to them and then

feed that back to them in a way that they go, wow, they

really heard me.

Harvey: I remember reading in the One Minute Manager, you said you

always wanted constant, immediate, unfiltered feedback. I

also remember my favorite story from the One Minute Manager

is, Go out and walk your plant every single day and catch

someone doing something right. Then in front of mother,

God, and country, praise him or her. Those are two of my

favorite stories from the One Minute Manager.


Being an undercover boss permits you to get feedback to things that maybe your people won’t tell you

Ken:

Harvey:

Ken:

It’s really important, Harvey, I think that you do catch

people doing things right. But it’s interesting, I don’t know

if you’ve seen Undercover Boss, where presidents of compa-

nies go undercover and all. What a fabulous thing for them

to learn what’s really going on.

Being an undercover boss permits you, sometimes, to get feed-

back to things that maybe your people won’t tell you, that are

directly reporting to you.

Interesting you mentioned that, because I even wrote a

column on it I loved the show so much.

Okay. Onto the next question. Customer service experts

love the common sense, big idea bent of your classic Raving

Fans: A Revolutionary Approach to Customer Service, which

I’m quite proud to have written the foreward for. So my

ques-tion is, How important is remembering and using

personal details to superior customer service?

Well, as I’ve already said, I think it’s really key for people. You

talk about Raving Fans for saying satisfied customers is not

enough; you want to really blow them away so that they brag

about you. People will brag about you when you remember


With the Mackay 66, you are saying that the customer is really important Harvey:

Ken:

details about them and their interests and their concerns

and are able to provide that for them, as a customer, as I was

talking about with the Ritz.

The great ones, I know, always, always know details about

you, and they keep it in their records. When people come,

they’re able to replay it. That’s what really kind of says,

wow, these people are something, and you start to brag

about them because they just have blown you away. So I

think that’s just so key.

Thank you. Next question. You used the term “seagull

managers” to describe managers who fly in, make a lot

of noise, dump on everybody, and then fly out. Do you

often spot seagull managers in customer service crises?

How could a tool like the Mackay 66 help prevent customer

service knee jerks?

Well, I think the big thing about the Mackay 66 is what you’re

really saying is that the customer is really important. Where

you get seagull managers, they kind of have kind of a bureau-

cratic mindset. Somebody comes in and makes an exception

to quote a rule and says, Who do you think you are, doing

something like that?


What you really want with your frontline people is eagles, not ducks

They fly in. They’re really not after the customer, per se;

they’re after the frontline person. But when they attack the

frontline person for actually paying attention to you, as a

customer, they lose you, too.

I just finished, Harvey, a while back, a book with Colleen

Barrett, who stepped down as president of Southwest Airlines.

They’re just an amazing culture. But one of my very favorite

stories is about seagull managers because they really create

people around them who are ducks. So if a customer asks

them, they say, Quack, quack, it’s our policy; quack, quack, I

just work here; quack, quack, I didn’t make the rules; quack,

quack, you want to talk to my supervisor.

The duck doodoo is flying all over the place.

What you really want with your frontline people is eagles,

people who can really think and make decisions on their own.

Colleen and I were on a teleconference recently. You might

have heard the story about a Southwest Airline pilot who

held up a plane for 12, 15 minutes waiting for a grandfather

who he heard was racing to the plane so that he could be at

the bedside of his grandson who was dying.

I asked Colleen about that. She said the amazing thing

about that is five or six departments were involved in that

decision and no managers. He called on the telephone to

make a reservation and told the woman on the phone what


Your salespeople shouldn’t do things to impress management, but to show care to the customers

Harvey:

was happening, and she says, “You jump in a cab.” She says,

“I’m going to call the airport. I’ll have somebody at door

number 10. Make sure you stop off there, and they’ll have

your ticket and all.”

Somebody was greeting him, and they had talked to the

security people, got him through there, everything. It was

unbelievable what happened. The pilot was outside the

plane waiting for the guy. And he said, “Why are you out

here?” And the pilot said, “Because this plane wasn’t going

anywhere without you.”

What Colleen said was just so great about it, they didn’t

do that to impress management. In fact, nobody heard

about it until the guy happened to put something on the

computer about it. But the reality is, it’s very important

for them to have on-time takeoffs, unless it doesn’t make

sense. I love that. They let their people be eagles, not

ducks.

Well, I love that story, Ken. Of course, Colleen Barrett, she’s

a superstar. I wouldn’t know her without your

introduction, and the fact that I guess I’m a proud

member of sitting on your board of advisors at the Grand

Canyon University and the business school they named

after you, the Ken Blanchard College of Business, so love

that story.


Life is all about getting an A

Ken:

Let’s move on. Two more, and then we are finished. What’s

the greatest sale, Ken, you ever made?

Well, when I think about the greatest sale I ever made, first

of all, probably selling my wife Margie on marrying me, and I

think you’ve made a great sale with Carol Ann. I think most

of the guys I know who are successful married above them-

selves, so that was a great sale.

But a fun sale and an important sale in my life was when I was

a college professor, which I was for ten years, I started the habit

of giving out the final exam the first day of class. Faculty got

all upset about that and said, “What are you doing?” I said,

“I’m confused.” They said “Yeah.” And I said, “I thought we

were supposed to teach these kids.” “You are, but don’t give

them the questions to the final.” I said, “Not only am I going

to give them the questions on the final, but what do you think

I’m going to do all semester? I’m going to teach them the

answers, so when they get the final exam, they get an A.”

Life is all about getting an A; it’s not some stupid normal

distribution curve. I finally convinced them of that.

Harvey, I grew up in New York. And in New York you could

get a Regents Diploma, which was a higher status diploma

than a regular high school diploma, but to do that you had


You can be tough on people but still help them to win

to take 10 or 12 Regents Exams that were written in the

state capital of Albany.

I noticed that people who were teaching the Regents Exams

behaved very differently than the teachers who were teaching

regular courses. In the Regents Exams, they were evaluated

on how many students passed the exam, and so they were

really excited that we did well. They started to give us old

Regents the first day of class so we would practice, and

when you came in for your final exam, they had cookies

and milk and all, and they were cheering you on and all.

The other poor teachers who weren’t teaching Regents

classes, they were evaluated on how well they did with their

normal distribution curve, because if they had too many

A’s, then they were considered easy markers and were a real

problem.

I finally sold people on the powerfulness of that, because

I wasn’t giving true/false/multiple choices. They were

tough tests, but I wanted people to win. In fact, I wrote

a book with Garry Ridge, the president of WD 40, entitled

Helping People Win at Work; the subtitle is A Business

Philosophy Called “Don’t Mark My Paper, Help Me Get an A.”

Garry heard me tell that story; he’s in a graduate program we

have at the University of San Diego. We have a master

of science, executive leadership there. He said, My God,

why don’t we do that in business?


Look at your job requirements and come up with three to five observable, measurable goals

He started having each of his managers -- they call

themselves tribe leaders, so it’s the WD 40 tribe -- he has

them sit with each of their direct reports, their tribe

members, and look at their job requirements and come up

with three to five observ-able, measurable goals. When they

do that, that’s what makes an A. If they can get an A on

each of those goals, then they have an A average, and

they’re an A performer. It’s the job of the manager at WD 40

to help people win.

To just give you the power of it, Harvey, he said last year

was the greatest year in the history of WD 40 financially.

They have an internal survey they give every 18 months to

every-body in their company, and they’re in 60 nations. 98

percent of the people filled out that internal survey, which

you never get in organizations, that kind of return. The

highest rated question was 98.7 people said, “At WD 40 I

am treated with respect and dignity;” 98.5 people said, “I’m

clear on what I’m being asked to do;” and 98.4 said, “I’m

getting the help I need to be a good performer.”

So not only has that been a great sale, convincing college

professors that I worked with that it was okay, but I’m now

starting to convince, with Garry Ridge’s help, CEOs around

the world to forget this normal distribution curve, forget

that Jack Welch, rank order your people. That’s

stupid. Why would you want some of your people to lose?

You want them to win.


Most of the people win because they have managers who want to help them get an A

Harvey:

Ken:

Does everybody win? Not necessarily, because sometimes

people are in the wrong position.

I don’t care much about finances, so I even get

permission to fall asleep in our board of directors meeting

when they go over the balance sheet. So you could

make me VP of finance and I wouldn’t do a very good

job, even if I had a great supervisor.

But the point is most of the people win because they have

managers who want to help them get an A, don’t sit around

with their arms folded, trying to judge and evaluate them.

Well, I love your thinking and love your philosophy.

Last question, Ken, a little different wrinkle. I know our

Roundtable members would be interested in this, but who

have been two or three of the most influential people in your

life and why?

Well, when I think of people who have been influential in my

life, I have to think about my mother and my father first. My

dad retired as an admiral of the Navy. He was really kind of a

Mr. Roberts’ type person, if any of you ever saw that film. He

really cared about his people.


Great leaders are great not because they have power, but because people respect and trust them

I’ll never forget, Harvey, I won the president of the 7th

grade at New Rochelle, New York, and it was the first year

in junior high. I came home, and I’m all pumped up. And

my dad says, “Congratulations, Ken. But now that you’re

president, don’t ever use your position, because great leaders

are great not because they have power, but because people

respect and trust them.”

And he was teaching me lessons about that all the time.

He said, “You know, without my junior officers, without the

chief petty officers, I’d be nothing, because they have all

the information I need in order to make me a great leader.

Don’t think that all the brains stop at your door.” So he was

a great influence on me.

My mother was an incredible influence on me because she

was such a positive thinker. She kind of invented that even

before Norman Vincent Peale, I think. She just constantly

was giving me lessons. She would say to me, “Don’t think

you’re better than anybody else, but don’t let anybody think

that they’re better than you. Remember, you’re okay, but that

doesn’t mean you can’t learn things to be better.” She was

just an amazing influence.

Then talking about Norman Vincent Peale. I met him when

he was 86 years old. They asked me if I would ever think

about writing a book with him, and I asked, “Is he still alive?”


Don’t think you’re better than anybody else, but don’t let anybody think that they’re better than you

Because my folks had gone to his church before I was born.

They said, “Not only is he alive, he’s incredible.” Norman

and his wife Ruth really took my wife Margie and me

under their wing, and they were a tremendous influence on

our spir-itual life. They told us that the Lord’s always had

you on his team, you just haven’t suited up yet. So rather

than trying to evangelize us, they just loved on us.

Then watching them behave and watching how they treated

each other and watching how they lived, we got really fasci-

nated by that, and that had a major impact on us spiritually.

So I think my mom and my dad and Norman Vincent Peale.

Then Paul Hersey had a tremendous impact on me. My

first job — I went to Ohio University in Athens, Ohio —

as an administrative assistant to the dean, because all of my

professors said if I wanted to be at universities, I should be an

administor, because I couldn’t write. And so Paul Hersey

had come as chairman of the management department at

Ohio University, and when I got there, the dean asked me

to teach a course. He wanted all of the deans to teach,

and I had never thought about teaching because of the

publish or perish problem. He said, “I don’t care anything

about that.”

So he put me in Hersey’s department, and he asked Hersey

to give me a course to teach, which he did. After about two

weeks, I came home and I told Margie, I said, “God, this is


Make sure your ego doesn’t get in the way

what I ought to be doing. I just love this teaching.” She

said, “What about the writing?” I said, “I don’t know. We’ll

figure that out.”

But I had heard that Hersey taught a great leadership course,

and I asked him if I could sit in the next semester. This is

December 1966. He said, “Nobody audits my course. If you

want to take it for credit, you’re welcome.” I had a doctor’s

degree and he didn’t, and he was making me take his course.

So I told Margie, and she laughed. She said, “Is he any good?”

I said, “He’s supposed to be great.” She said, “Well, get your

ego out of the way and take his course.” So I take his course,

wrote the papers and all.

In June 1967, Hersey comes into my office, and he said, “Ken,

I’ve been teaching leadership for ten years. I think I’m better

than anybody, but,” he says, “I’m a nervous wreck. I can’t

write, and they want me to do a textbook. I’ve been looking

for a good writer like you.” He read my papers in this course.

He said, “Would you co-author this book with me on Manage-

ment of Organizational Behavior: Utilizing Human Resources? It

is a textbook.” I said, “We ought to be a great team. You can’t

write, and I’m not supposed to. Let’s do it.”

We wrote that book. It’s now in its 10th Edition, sells

more today than it did in the '60s. So I went in to see the

dean — you’ll get a kick out of this, Harvey — and I said,

“I quit. I’m


Think about your mentors and how they influenced you in your life

Harvey:

Ken:

going to be a faculty member.” He said, “You can’t quit.” I

said, “Why not?” He said, “Because I was going to fire you.”

He said, “You are a lousy administrator,” which I was. So

we agreed it was a photo finish between him firing me and

me quitting.

But Hersey just had a tremendous impact on me, in getting

me underway teaching and writing and all of that, so I have

to add him to that list, for sure.

Well, Norman Vincent Peale’s name brings back great, great

memories. I wouldn’t have known him or got to know him

pretty well if it weren’t you.

I remember our first two-hour dinner, maybe more than

two hours. We were there in Chicago, and I can still

remember the story when — in fact, Ruth was there with

us — and he told the story. Ruth looked at us and said,

“Why, Norman, you haven’t told that story in over 40

years.” I remember you and I got a kick out of it.

Well, one of my treasures, Harvey, right outside my office

is a picture you sent me of you and Norman and me,

together, I think probably after that dinner or session maybe

we were at. That’s a really special picture to me.


Stop selling people, and get to know them

Harvey:

Ken:

Ken, I can’t thank you enough. Just terrific, as always. We

will be in touch. Give Margie a big hug for me. I wish you no

three-putts the next time you play.

Well, I appreciate it, Harvey. I would really add you to

the list of people who have impacted my life, because after

first meeting you through YPO, just learning about the way

you think and the way you do things, as well as the whole

Mackay 66, where you say to salespeople, “What you’ve

really got to do is connect with people, rather than commu-

nicate with them. Stop selling them, get to know them,”

and that’ll really make a difference.

Harvey, you’ll get a kick out of this, and you probably know

him, I was on a program recently with Walter Bonds. He was

a great basketball player in high school and was a top guy in

the state, I think, in Michigan.

All of these coaches were coming to recruit him, and they

all had brochures and all of that. In walked the coach of the

University of Minnesota, and he must have known you and

talked to you and all, because right away the first thing he did

is he says, “Where is your mom?” So Walter introduced him

to his mom. He had researched his mom and where she was

from and what kind of things she was interested in, and he

chatted with her.


The Mackay 66 is a mindset for looking at the entire world of sales

He said, “Is your dad around?” And his dad came in, and he

knew everything about his dad, and all of that kind of thing,

before he even sat down with Walter.

When he left, Walter’s father said to him, “Well, that deci-

sion is over. You’re going to the University of Minnesota.”

Harvey: Well, I didn’t know you were going to pull Walter Bonds’

name out. I was with him last week at a dinner, and we are,

in fact, having lunch in the next couple of weeks, and I’m

going to see him at NSA, the National Speaker’s Associa-

tion. Once again, hats off to you, Ken, and we shall be in

touch. Bye bye.

Ken: All right. Take care.

Ken leaves me speechless. I’ll edit down one of his famous one-minute

praising sessions to two heartfelt seconds: “Un-for-get-ta-ble!”

In many ways, the Mackay 66 is an icon. It’s a mindset for looking at

the entire world of sales.

That mindset is one of personalized, information-driven selling.


Relevant, powerful information is all around you — you only have to know how to look for itand how to apply it

The very first week I went into sales I spent the day with an old envelope

curmudgeon following around a competitor’s truck making envelope deliv-

eries to their customers.

“There’s your prospect list,” he told me. How right he was.

Relevant, powerful information is all around you. You only have to know

how to look for it and how to apply it.

Here’s another fundamental truth: There is bad news buzz about every

competitor. And it never hurts to know it.

Your competitors are not going to issue press releases about it. But you’ll

hear it from their disgruntled employees. You’ll pick it up from suppliers —

the same ones who are likely selling you.

l Is someone having trouble paying their bills?

l Is there a key employee who’s looking to make a move?

l Are they having problems with any of their customers?

Listen for the good buzz as well as the bad:

l Are your competitors active in the community? Do they participate

in fund drives and volunteer work?

l Do they value education? Do they encourage their employees to

improve their skills?

l How are they regarded in the industry? Do they attend trade shows?

Are they involved in industry organizations?


It’s always smart to have some pipeline into the enemy camp

You don’t want to be the last to know. There is no formal network for

getting this kind of information.

It can come from anywhere.

The one fact that never changes is: People love to talk, especially if it’s

the daily dish, and the subject is a little controversial or revealing. That’s

just human nature.

It’s always smart to have some pipeline, however informal, into the

enemy camp:

l Suppliers

l Bankers

l Lawyers

l Customers

l Former customers

l Employees

l Former employees

l Salespeople

l Truck drivers

l Spouses

l Girlfriends or boyfriends

l Ex-girlfriends or boyfriends


Watch for factories that are running at capacity

l Car dealers

l Bartenders at the cross-town factory’s #1 watering hole.

Following your competitor’s truck around is an unbeatable education.

But it’s only one route in a mental map with thousands of chances to

connect the dots:

l As I’ve said, program your information resources to track your

competitor in key news and trade websites.

l Does your competitor have a major plant in Saskatoon or Saint Clair

Shores? Do you regularly look at the town paper for local news that

may never make it to the national level?

l Here’s a golden tip: Watch for factories that are running at capacity!

Business may be booming for now, but it could also be stretched to

the seams. That can mean late deliveries and/or slipshod quality.

And that can mean platinum opportunities for you.

l Are you tracking the goings-on with your competitors’ biggest

customers? Let’s say you’re in the office furnishings business and Wiggle-

heimers — whom you would die to sell to — announces plans for a new

customer service center. You should be pounding on their e-mailbox

with a knock-their-socks-off design concept in nanoseconds.

l Are your competitors advertising on search engines like Google?

Does your search show a consumer activist group or blog is hot on

their heels?


Don’t underestimate the power of people who have recently left another company or organization in which you have an interest

l Visit your competitors’ websites regularly. How much trouble do they

take to maintain them and keep them fresh? What tips do they give

you for overhauling your own site?

Don’t forget — or underestimate — the power of people who have

recently left another company or organization in which you have an interest.

Just because they’ve moved on is no reason to erase them from your data

base. In fact, there’s a reasonably good chance they’ll become even more

valuable members of your network.

Whatever new connections they make may well be connections you

currently don’t have.

Let’s say that you’re a Chief Financial Officer in the hotel industry.

You’ve always had a respectful, but understandably distant relationship with

another CFO at a major competitor. That person jumps ship and is now the

top bean counter at a pharmaceutical firm. Perfect!

When you’re next in town, it’s the ideal time to visit and glean what you

can. After all, you’re no longer competitors, are you?

Great businesses make the systematic pursuit of prospects an art form.

Karen Stabiner wrote a classic about the ad biz called Inventing Desire.

It chronicles a year she spent at the headquarters of creativity powerhouse

Chiat\Day in Venice, California. This is the agency that made the

legendary 1984 commercial introducing the Macintosh for Apple. Chiat\

Day is now part of the global agency TBWA\Chiat\Day.


Your entire day can be spent swallowing up information, so you need to know how to prioritize your time

The watchwords for Chiat\Day are: “Good enough is not good enough.”

Nowhere is this more evident than in Chiat/Day’s hunger for information.

Stabiner recounts how Chiat\Day wanted to sew up the Nissan

account. The agency didn’t just dial up Nissan headquarters in the

Tokyo Ginza and pitch the account.

Chiat\Day mapped out a year-long plan to secure the business:

l They learned those clubs where managers were members.

l They knew where they played golf.

l Which charities did Nissan’s top team support? What roles did they

play? They were on top of that, too.

l Where did they eat lunch? What did they eat? When? Not a plate

left unturned.

The more sophisticated the business and the more attractive the prospect,

the better the pitch. And that means the more thorough the preparation.

It’s as simple as that.

Once you start thinking the Chiat\Day or Mackay 66 way — it

becomes a way of life.

OK, pretty soon you begin to see the enormity of the opportunity. Your

entire day could be spent swallowing up information. There’s no scarcity of

it. The next question becomes: How do I prioritize my time?


If you can identify the top 20 percent of your customers, you will always have a great idea of how to prioritize your time

If you can identify the top 20 percent of your customers, you will always

have a great idea of how to prioritize your time. The top prospects are the

“A” list. They are the coveted 20% who account for 80% of your business

and profits … and probably more. These are the customers who do and the

realistic prospects who might fall into that top 20% category.

You should also be aware that in the last five years the arrow is pointing

toward a 90 to 10 percent split.

The more contacts you have with them …

l The closer you are to them, the greater the volume of business you

have with them…

l The more you have done for them, the more current and active your

connection is…

l The more checkmarks that will appear opposite their names…

l The more checkmarks, the more likely they are to belong on your

“A” list.

These are your “A” list for networking contacts as well as for business.

All the more reason to keep the profiles updated.

Lay out your schedule of when you will see your key “A” list contacts

over a given year.

These are the power lunches and golf outings you need to prepare for

thoughtfully.


Little things don’t just mean a lot, they mean everything

Dining well at a power lunch depends on what you bring to the table.

Forgive the broken record. It all starts with the little things. Because —

let’s hear it — little things don’t mean a lot. They mean everything.

No salesperson ever went broke who knew the names of a customer’s kids.

Knowing the significant other’s name, unfortunately, is no guarantee.

You haven’t seen your old friend, Buddy, in just over a year. You break

bread at a local bistro.

“How have you been, Buddy?”

“Great.”

“How’s Buddette?”

“Buddette ran off with her psychiatrist. They’re living in Anchorage.”

“Oh. Well, how’s that terrific dog of yours, Squat?”

“Squat died. I have a new dog now, Grunt.”

At this point, a chill settles over the table. And it ain’t from the nicely

frosted salad forks.

Not a pretty sight. I know. It’s happened to me, too.

A name and a few notes typed into a file don’t constitute a Mackay 66. You have to keep it fine-tuned or you’re going to run into a lot of

Buddy-type fiascos.


The 66 profiles can determine whether or not you’ve got work to get to

Two years is too long between tune-ups.

You change your oil every 3,000 miles, don’t you? This is what I used

to ask people. That used to be about once every three months. Now people

change their oil more like once a year. Well, you should be doing

major update profiles on significant customers about twice as often as that.

Your car just gets you to work. The Mackay 66 profiles can determine

whether or not you’ve got work to get to.

Does this sound like grinding, merciless trench warfare? That’s because

it is. Keep a smiling face while you do it. You have to lock in your heels and

keep using your periscope to scan the horizon.

Our second guest today is an unsurpassed battlefield tactician of customer

service. What General George “Blood-and-Guts” Patton was to the Allies

in World War II, Jeffrey Gitomer is to the contemporary campaign to earn

customer loyalty.

Jeffrey Gitomer is one of the great modern gurus of sales training. He’s

authored nine books, including New York Times bestsellers like the block-

buster, The Little Red Book of Selling.

Jeffrey is celebrated as a straight-shooter when it comes to customer

relations. Countless managers perk up to the weekly Jolt! of his Sales

Caffeine e-zine.


Go from where you are now to where you really want to be and know you can be

JEFFREY GITOMER

Harvey: Jeffrey, you know the Mackay 66 backwards and forwards.

When you teach sales, how would you apply this tool in the

ideal sales approach?

Jeffrey: Before I begin, let me just say that the Mackay 66 was my

initial inspiration for making certain that I was able to get

closer to my customer.

When I first read Swim With the Sharks, which was the pivotal

book that I read in my business life, that took me from where

I was to where I really wanted to be or where I knew I could

be. That’s how important that book is.

People don’t realize it — because it might be, I don’t know

how old it is right now, 20 years old — but the bottom line

is that it’s still as current today as it was then.

When I look at gaining information from somebody, that’s

the first thing I do. When I first read Mackay 66, I was

documenting it on a legal pad or whatever I possibly could

gain, and then finally I went to a portable computer and

then a laptop, and we’ve now progressed to where I can put

it onto my phone.


The Mackay 66 is an absolutely unbelievable document, but only if you utilize it

But I try to find something personal about the other person

I’m dealing with and then doing something memorable

about it.

One of my customers right now is the Dale Carnegie Insti-

tute. I had one of their top three people here in my home.

In casual conversation, I asked who his favorite athlete was,

because he’s a Phillies fan. So he said his favorite Phillie

was Garry Maddox, which is kind of amazing to me, but

Maddox was on the 1980 World Championship team, when

the Phillies won the World Series in 1980. I’m a Phillies

fan, so I love that whole team.

But what I did for this guy is I got an autographed picture of

Garry Maddox and an autographed card where he endorsed

it as the Minister of Defense. He won eight Gold Gloves. I

mean, the guy was just absolutely an amazing athlete. So I

framed both of them. When I signed the contract with Dale

Carnegie, I enclosed those two items.

You would have thought that I just gave this guy the Holy

Grail. I didn’t give him what I wanted to give him; rather I

gave him what he wanted to get. Find something personal,

do something memorable. The Mackay 66 is an absolutely

unbelievable document, but only if you utilize it, once you

find out the information.


Make sure you write details down so you have them when you need them

Harvey:

Jeffrey:

Well, I’ll tell you, I appreciate those very sincere remarks,

Jeffrey. That’s a hell of an opener for our Roundtable, which

is just terrific.

Let’s go on to the next question, which you referred to

very briefly, as far as what kind of system you may have for

keeping track of people.

Well, currently we have salesforce.com in our company, but

I personally hate it. I’m Jewish and I have a Macintosh. So

that automatically precludes me from doing a lot of stuff, and

I’m 65 years old. So I’m partner in a firm called Ace of Sales,

and that allows me to store personal information and thoughts

about everybody, but I want to make sure that I remember

stuff. Literally, the only way I can remember it is if I write it

down and make sure that I have it when I need it.

I don’t necessarily keep people’s birthdays and anniversaries,

but I keep pertinent things. For example, in one of my prospec-

tive relationships, the woman who owns the company had a

son named Brooks. She named him after Brooks Robinson.

So the very first thing that I did was sent her an autographed

ball by Brooks Robinson that they keep on their baby’s dresser

every day so that every time she walks into the baby’s room,

she thinks about me.


The ultimate gift you can give a customer is something that will sit on that desk, so that every single day of their life they have to think about you

I find that if I hadn’t stored that information, not only in

my head, because I’ve got a lot swimming in my head, but

if I hadn’t stored that in my Ace of Sales account, I would

never have remembered it the way I did and was able to do

something about it.

Harvey: What an example. I’ve always said if you can ever be creative

and give a customer or a personal friend something that will

sit on that desk, in that bedroom, in the home, so that every

single day of their life they have to think about you, that, of

course, is the ultimate gift.

Jeffrey: Just let me say one more thing. Whenever a child is born

to a friend of mine, I send them the book, The Little Engine

That Could, and a set of bookends — usually a Dr. Seuss set

of bookends.

In the book I inscribe, “This is not a book for a kid; this is a

philosophy for a lifetime. I think I can. I think I can.” For

five bucks for the book and 20 bucks that the bookends cost,

that makes an impression on people that never goes away,

because they understand that I’m a family person, not just a

business person.


The Mackay 66 is designed so that a person can understand how they can get into the real life of the person, not just the business life of the person

Harvey:

Jeffrey:

I think that the Mackay 66 is designed so that a person can

understand how they can get into the real life of the person,

not just the business life of the person.

Well, of course, to that I say amen.

Next question, You preach the power of connecting and

relationship building. What are two or three of the most

overlooked opportunities in building customer connections?

Well, ten years ago, I called every one of my customers. I

called thousands of people and asked them for their e-

mail addresses. Ten years ago, people were still willing to

give their e-mail addresses, and we were able to garner

21,000 names.

Every week, I began to send every one of those people a

column of mine, the one that I had just written that

week, because I found that people needed new sales

information and new inspiration on pretty much a weekly

basis. Then we started to design the piece. It became Sales

Caffeine.

That was about 500 issues ago. We’re now at almost 500,000

names, because one person told another person, and I’m

able to keep my name in front of the people that I’ve built

relationships with. I don’t have to worry about how many


How much value are you providing to that customer or that prospective customer every week?

Harvey:

Jeffrey:

it is. I could never touch 300,000 people or 500,000 people

in a week, unless I was able to create a value message and hit

the send button.

One of the most misunderstood pieces, Harvey, in building

relationships is, How much value am I providing to that

customer or that prospective customer every week? So that

when I come to Minneapolis to do a seminar or when I come

to Phoenix to do a seminar, 500 to 1,000 people are

willing to pay me money to hear me talk.

Well, those are the key words, “How much value,” over and

over. You can’t hear that enough. I love that answer.

Next question would be, Please give us a couple of specifics

on how modern technology is changing the ability to build

customer connections. How can the typical sales executive

build these into their everyday practices?

Let me repeat, I’m 65, but let me also say that I’ve got

32,000 connections on Twitter; I have 7,000 connections

on LinkedIn; and I have about 20,000 people that like me

on Facebook. On my YouTube channel, I’ve got about 1.5

million people that have viewed my videos.


If you’re not taking advantage of the modern way of connecting with people through social media, you are missing the biggest boat of your life

Harvey:

I’m challenging everybody that if they’re not taking advan-

tage of the modern way of connecting with people through

social media, or what I’ve referred to as business social media,

they’re missing the biggest boat of their lives. Number one,

it’s free. Number two, it allows your customers to look at you

as, Oh, this guy is at the state of the art of the marketplace.

He knows or she knows exactly what’s going on.

All I do is I tweet something of value every day; I try to do

that the best I possibly can. I put myself in front of people

that can say yes to me, and I deliver value first. I put myself

in front of people who can say yes to me, and I deliver value

first. And that part of the process — I started with the e-mail

magazine, but the minute social media became prevalent in

our business society, I jumped on it, because I want to keep up

with what’s brand new, and I want to make sure that when my

grandchildren text me, I want to make sure I can text them

back. I’ve employed as much modern technology as I possibly

can into my own business life, and I would challenge every-

body in your circle to do exactly the same thing.

Well, I think everyone in my circle now knows after a brief

six, seven, eight, nine minutes, so far, we’re only halfway

through, what a master craftsman you are, Jeffrey.


Employ as much modern technology as you possible can intoyour own business life

Jeffrey: Thank you, Harvey.

Harvey: Next question, and I’m going to have a little smile on my face

here, but let’s talk about customer relations from a different

angle. I’m not trying to throw you a curve ball, but you can

plead the 5th Amendment on this question, if you want.

In 2003, you were the first customer ever banned from U.S.

Airways. Of course you and your frequent flyer miles have

since been reinstated.

Jeffrey: Right.

Harvey: Would you like to tell me and my group about your experience?

Jeffrey: Sure. Actually, I consider being banned by U.S. Airways,

eight or nine years later, kind of a badge of honor.

I fly out of Charlotte, which is a hub for U.S. Airways. I wrote

two very scathing articles about them, 100 percent of which

was truthful. Then they accused me of being too belligerent

in the airport, that I actually made a gate agent cry one time;


Some people will treat you badly no matter what you do

but predominantly I was being belligerent because I wanted

them to tell me the truth. When a plane was delayed, I would

go up and tell them, “Look, I’ve got a life. What’s the delay?”

“Well, we don’t know.”

“Yes, you do know, and all of these people need to know.”

But I decided after I was banned by U.S. Airways — and by

the way, I ended up taking about 20 private planes that year

— it was one of the best years of my life. I became Platinum

on Delta and a Executive Platinum on American Airlines, so

I knew Dallas very well, I knew Atlanta very well.

But the bottom line is I got a thousand posts about me on

FlyerTalk, wanting to get me reinstated. They were getting

about 100 e-mails a week about me at the top level of U.S.

Airways. So I get a call from one of their big cheeses who

said, “I don’t want to be known as the guy that banned Jeffrey

Gitomer from flying.”

So they flew down to Charlotte. We agreed that I would apol-

ogize and that they would reinstate me.

When I went back on my very first day back on the airline,

every one of the skycaps out front lined up and hugged me to

welcome me back. Half the people in Charlotte still hate me;

the other half love me. The ones that hate me are the people

that have zero customer service, zero care, are mistreated by


Sometimes you need to just be a customer

their employer, and have had a bad attitude from minute one.

I don’t really care about that.

I don’t do anything right now, except for one thing, I basi-

cally put my hood up and I go on the airplane. I try to sell a

book to the guy next to me for 20 bucks cash, and then I go

about my business.

But when the gate agent doesn’t look at me, I wait. I

give them my ticket and I wait. The guy says, “Anything

wrong?” I say, “Yeah.” I say, “I’m just kind of waiting for

you, because you were looking at somebody else or talking

to somebody else.” They say, “Well, you’re all set.” I say,

“Well, all set for what? Oh, you mean, thank you for my

thousand dollar ticket, that’s what you meant to say, right,

pal? Thank you?” And then I walk on the plane. That’s

the only thing I do now, Harvey.

I was banned by the airline for a damn good reason. I was

probably more abusive than I needed to be because I’m from

Philly, and we were just kind of born that way, I think. We

boo the home team and the away team. But the bottom line

for me is I’ve learned a very valuable lesson, and the valuable

lesson is just be a customer and shut the hell up. If it’s

not that good, tweet about it.

I sat there the other day, when I was frustrated as hell, and

I tweeted: The airlines are a great place to learn how to do


Be sure to give your customers reasons to tweet and share positive things about you rather than negative

Harvey:

Jeffrey:

Harvey:

Jeffrey:

business; whatever they do, do the opposite. I was re-tweeted

to about 100,000 other listeners. So I had a good time at it. I

vented. I was fine with it, and they were fine with it.

In case any of you do fly U.S. Airways or do not fl y U.S.

Airways, they have a slogan. Let me share the slogan with

you: We’re not satisfied until you’re not satisfied. Th at’s

pretty much the way the airline industry rolls.

I’ve got a stomachache from laughing. I’ve been looking up

in my dictionary here the word “colorful” and your picture

just showed up.

Thank you. Thank you.

Okay. That’s just terrific, Jeffrey. All right. A couple more

quickies and we are out of here. What’s the greatest sale you

ever made?

I’m probably not allowed to use the swear words, but I’ll give

you one really good sale.


You can make your greatest sales everif you employ the Mackay 66

I sold garments in New York City. I would cold call, because

in the late '70s and in the middle '70s, you could cold call in

Manhattan and it was still okay. Keep in mind that selling

garments also carried with it an expectation to give the other

person some money for doing business with you. They called

it a bribe in those days; they call them spiffs today. But the

bottom line is people wanted money.

Well, let me give you a non-money one, because I would call

on Fortune 500 companies as well. I was a devotee of MAD

Magazine, so I wanted to do the Alfred E. Neuman T-shirt. So

I went up to MAD’s office on Madison Avenue.

I came in, and I was prepared. I had a little statue of Alfred

E. Neuman that you could buy in the old days for a couple

of bucks. I brought it in to the lady at the front desk and

I said, “I’d like 5,000 of these statues, please.” She said, “I

don’t think we make them anymore.” I knew they didn’t

make them anymore. I said, “Well, I’m interested in 5,000 of

them.” So she goes back and she goes, “Yeah, we don’t make

them anymore.” I said, “You don’t understand, lady. I want

5,000 of these pieces.” She got all rude, “I’m telling you we

don’t make them.” She’s starting to get belligerent.

I said, “Listen, I want to see Bill Gaines,” and Bill Gaines is

the guy who ran MAD Magazine. He’s also one of the founders

of the comic book.


It’s all about how you create your opportunity in sales, rather than how you try to make a cold call

Harvey:

This big, white, burly haired guy comes out and says, “We

don’t make these things anymore.”

I said, “Okay.” I said, “Well, then give me 5,000 Alfred E.

Neuman T-shirts instead.”

He said, “We don’t have those either.”

I said, “I do.” And I ripped open my suit and shirt, and I

showed him a picture of Alfred E. Neuman on my T-shirt that

I was wearing underneath my suit.

And he goes, “Get (bleep) away.” I went in, sold him 50,000

shirts, got an autographed copy of the book, and left the

happiest guy on the planet.

It’s all about how you create your opportunity in sales, rather

than how you try to make a cold call on somebody and try

to get them interested. I already knew what I wanted. I was

prepared to make the sale. I walked out with what I did want,

an order form.

Love it again. All right. Let’s wrap it up here. What two or

three people influenced your career, and why?


Read, watch educational movies, and attend seminars that will help you increase your knowledge

Jeffrey: There’s living people that influenced my career, Harvey,

and dead people that influenced my career. When I very

first started out learning how to sell and be positive, there

was the original Think and Grow Rich book, which I had to

read with five guys.

We had to read a chapter a day and do a book report on

it, in front of all the other guys, and we had to do that for

one year. So I was reading literally one chapter a week.

But there’s only 15 chapters in the book, so we were going

through the book, like, 20 times during the course of that

year. That’s number one.

Number two, I watched the movie called Challenge to America,

by Glenn Turner, who was the head of a multilevel marketing

company back in the early '70s. We watched that movie

every day for one year. So the early people, the Earl Nightin-

gale, The Strangest Secret, all of the things that I could possibly

garner by all of the early sales guys, certainly the J. Douglas

Edwards guys and the Bill Gove guys, those were very early

influencers on me.

Then I started to go to seminars and learn everything that I

possibly could from them. Some were good and some were

not good. I would also have to say that by reading, when I

read — I’ve already acknowledged your books as a part of my

library that was important to me, but also reading books like


You need to constantly be a student

Thinkertoys by Michael Michalko, reading other things on

other subjects about attitude and about sales. I collect books

on sales. Harvey, you’ve been to my house; you know what

my collection looks like.

I try to read old things so that I could learn something new.

I took the Dale Carnegie course. I joined Toastmasters. I

joined the National Speakers Association.

The one thing that I’ve learned about learning things and

being inspired by other things and other people is that it

never stops. I’ll be going to the National Speakers Associa-

tion annual meeting this year. Yes, I’m giving a speech, but

I’m also going to take classes. I try to give myself about ten

personal development days per year.

So I learned from the old guys.

Then I started to take information from the modern guys, but

not too much, because I don’t want to be accused of looking

at their style or repeating what they have to say. But I’m a

student. I’ve always been a student.

I’m not even a student just on sales, I’m a student dad. I’ve

only been a dad for 38 years; I’ve still got a lot to learn. I’ve

only been a granddad for 13 years; I’ve still got a lot to learn.


The Mackay 66 may be indispensible for customers, but that is by no means the limit of its usefulness

Harvey: Well, let me just recap those last couple minutes. You started

out by talking about Think and Grow Rich, and my Round-

table has heard me mention it. That’s Napoleon Hill’s book,

Think and Grow Rich, which Jeffrey just referenced.

Also, bottom line, what you just said is it never stops: learning.

Never stop learning.

Jeffrey, you’ve been just truly outstanding. Thanks again, and

we shall be in touch. Bye bye.

Jeffrey: Always my pleasure, Harvey. Bye bye.

Thank you, General Jeffrey! If anyone can stir the troops with a call to

action, you sit tall in the saddle.

The Mackay 66 may be indispensible for customers. But that is by no

means the limit of its usefulness.

Who else should you be running Mackay 66 profiles on?

Suppliers certainly deserve them. For example: I want the best envelope

machine supplier … paper supplier … ink supplier … technical support

supplier in the world.


Learn what makes your customers and prospects tick as people — and what kind of personalities they will attract and repel

We treat our suppliers exactly the same way we treat our customers. We

want to build long-term relationships.

Any supplier that walks through our front door, our managers immedi-

ately try and develop a long-term relationship, and the tool they use is the

Mackay 66.

Always look at relationships in multiple ways.

If you have the best suppliers, you are likely to create the best product.

The more that you engage the best suppliers — provided it’s at the right

price — the less available they are to serve the needs of competitors.

And, did I say competitors?

Of course, you should do Mackay 66 profiles on your key competitors.

Even if you have to guess at some of the answers.

Here’s why:

l You’ll learn what makes them tick as people — and what kind of

personalities they will attract and repel.

l You’ll develop a feel for their social, alumni and trade association

networks. That translates, of course, to what their corporate culture

is and where they are likely to staff their key people.

l You’ll get to know the kinds of social causes and community projects

they will finance.


What have you done for your organization and not for your own self-interest that people appreciate?

l You’ll have a handle on their business objectives.

l And, you’ll have a much better idea of how this person competes.

That includes what their core values are … and, you bet, what

they aren’t.

Why not Mackay 66 your peers? And I mean peers of all sorts: l

People who are CEOs of other companies in your community.

l Industry peers you meet at trade association get-togethers. (They

aren’t always direct competitors.)

l Fellow board members of both business and civic organizations.

It takes a certain magic to be loved by your peers … who are also coin-

cidentally often your #1 rivals.

Here’s an inventory you might want to take as you glance around the

table at your next sales conference or industry convention:

l How many of my colleagues know who I am?

l Am I linked with any great achievements?

l What have I done for the organization and not for my own self-

interest that these people appreciate?

l What personal favors or kind acts have I done for each individual in

this room?


The Mackay 66 is only a starting point

l What lingering issues or disagreements do I have with each of these

individuals and what have I done to resolve them since the group

last met?

l When I look at each person: Do I know their name? The name of

their spouse? Their keenest hobby or non-job interest? The personal

achievement of which they are proudest?

l When was the last time I was in touch with this person since the

group most recently met over this conference table?

Ask yourself: If these people were on a jury of your peers, would you

get a death sentence or an acquittal? How long do you think they’d have

to deliberate?

The majority of people in our networks will tend to be our peers, econom-

ically, socially, professionally, personally. Privates hang with privates, not

with generals … and vice versa.

In Hollywood, a producer wouldn’t be seen socially with a lowly writer.

Writers go to writers’ parties, and so on, up and down the ladder.

We increasingly live in a teamwork world. That means that peers are a

powerful voice in who gets ahead. Who gets t-r-u-s-t-e-d to lead the pack

without fear they will abuse the privilege.

Remember, the Mackay 66 is only a starting point. It helps you to know

important things. You only make a difference when you put those things to

use in creative ways. (That’s why our next session will be on creativity.)


You can create customer loyalty if you use the Mackay 66 superbly

The Mackay 66 is all about awareness — disciplined awareness — that

makes you alert to your customers. Use it well, and it will be an incredible

tool to prioritizing your time and leveraging your personal impact.

Use it superbly, and you will make every customer feel like that person is

the only customer you have and that you will do anything in the world for

them. That is what loyalty is made of.

Before we close, I wanted to quickly talk about your second

handout. Years ago I was asked to speak at Harvard Business School, and

the Harvard Business Review requested that I put my speech in an article.

Twenty years later, it’s still as pertinent as ever.

The concepts of the Mackay 66 haven’t changed.

I believe this is my best work ... ever. Other than updating the examples,

I wouldn’t change a word.

WRAp Up

As we close our fifth teleseminar, I have one final thought to kick around.

Use the Mackay 66 to every advantage. But never — ever! — use it

to show off.

People love to hear about themselves. They’re constantly trying to piece

together what the world thinks of them.


Use the Mackay 66 to every advantage, but never — ever! — use it to show off

This is all about them. It’s not about you.

There’s an up-and-coming English writer named Mark Haddon who was

born in 1962. He made an observation worth reflection:

“No one wants to know how clever you are. They don’t want

an insight into your mind, thrilling as it might be. They want

an insight into their own.”

That’s it for this session.

Bye for now.

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