freedom court reporting, inc 877-373-366023 landry, kenneth paschal, roy lloyd. meeting 3 freedom...

Meeting 1

Freedom Court Reporting, Inc 877-373-3660

1

2 MEETING OF THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE

3 ON CHILD SUPPORT GUIDELINES

4 FOR THE STATE OF ALABAMA

5

6

7

8

9 August 2nd, 2013

10

11

12

13

14 The following proceedings were held in the

15 meeting of the Advisory Board on Child Support

16 Guidelines for the State of Alabama on Friday,

17 August 2nd, 2013, at the Heflin-Torbert Judicial

18 Building, 300 Dexter Avenue, Montgomery, Alabama

19 36104, and was taken down by Rena' Lanier,

20 Certified Court Reporter and Notary Public for

21 the State of Alabama at Large, and was open to

22 the public.

23

Meeting 2


1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2

3 For the Committee:

4 Gordon Bailey, Chairman

5 Judge Aubrey Ford, Jr., Co-Chairman, Macon County

6 District Judge

7 Jennifer Bush, DHR Legal Counsel

8 Faye Nelson, Alabama Child Support Director

9 Angela Campbell, DHR Program Mgr Mobile County

10 Justice Lyn Stuart, Alabama Supreme Court

11 Penny Davis, Alabama Law Insitute

12 Mary Moore, Circuit Clerk Perry County, Alabama

13 Julia Kimbrough, Attorney Shelby County, Alabama

14 Judge Julie Palmer, Circuit Judge Jefferson Co

15 Judge Billy Bell, Circuit Judge Madison County

16 Michael Polemeni, Alabama Family Rights

17 Association and National Parents Organization

18 Angela Drees, Birmingham, Alabama

19 Bob Maddox, AOC Attorney

20 Also Present:

21 Alex Jackson, Julia Weller, Melissa with Channel

22 12, Carter with Channel 8, Jim Clark, Boyd

23 Landry, Kenneth Paschal, Roy Lloyd

Meeting 3


1 MR. BAILEY: We're going to start on

2 time. I'm so glad everybody is here. We

3 have lots of special guests today.

4 And, Alex, do you want to introduce our

5 real special guest first?

6 MR. JACKSON: I do. I want to introduce

7 my boss, Julia Weller, the new clerk of the

8 Alabama Supreme Court. She's a welcome

9 addition. She's doing a fine job. She's

10 working me harder than I've worked in the

11 23 years I've been here. She has me thinking

12 more and more about the future that I have

13 outside of the practice of law one of these

14 days. She's a great boss.

15 MR. BAILEY: Wonderful.

16 MR. JACKSON: And she's done a really

17 wonderful job of getting through the mess we

18 have dealing with all the papers we get. And

19 she strongly supports the committee. If you

20 need anything, feel free to contact her or

21 contact me.

22 MR. BAILEY: We certainly are glad to

23 have you. Would you like to say anything to

Meeting 4


1 the committee?

2 MS. WELLER: Our office is always open to

3 you, and please contact us if you have any

4 questions or we can be of any assistance.

5 Thank you so much.

6 MR. BAILEY: Thank you for being here.

7 Your predecessor, Bob, was a wonderful -- is

8 a wonderful gentleman and did a great job and

9 a real friend to all of us. Look forward to

10 working with you.

11 MS. WELLER: Thank you very much.

12 MR. BAILEY: I'm Gordon Bailey. We're

13 going to go around to the committee members

14 and have them introduce themselves. I want

15 to welcome several people.

16 Rena' Lanier is here with Freedom Court

17 Reporting. When you say something, speak

18 out, testify or whatever, please give her

19 your name and title before you do so, so she

20 can keep it all straight.

21 I want to welcome Melissa with Channel

22 12. Are you with Melissa?

23 MR. CARTER: No, sir. I'm Carter with

Meeting 5


1 Channel 8.

2 MR. BAILEY: I'm sorry?

3 MR. CARTER: Carter with Channel 8.

4 MR. BAILEY: Carter with Channel 8. I

5 asked Melissa, I said, did you bring a

6 make-up man, and she said no, but she has one

7 on call.

8 MS. McKINNEY: I haven't even done my own

9 yet.

10 MR. BAILEY: She has one on call. Of

11 course, we all met Alex Jackson at our last

12 meeting. He's taken over for Wayne and has

13 done a great job at his being with us on our

14 committee. And, of course, Bob Maddox, is

15 over here with AOC, our staff attorney.

16 Let's go around the room and introduce

17 ourselves.

18 I'm Gordon Bailey as I said. I've

19 practiced law in Anniston for 35 years.

20 Seems like 135. Was a child support referee

21 for six or seven years after that. And I am

22 now retired.

23 Would you like to start?

Meeting 6


1 MS. DREES: Yes, sir. My name is Angela

2 Drees. I'm from Birmingham, Alabama.

3 MS. KIMBROUGH: I'm Julia Kimbrough. I'm

4 in private practice in Shelby County,

5 Alabama. And my primary focus is family law.

6 JUSTICE STUART: I'm Lyn Stuart. I'm an

7 Associate Justice on the Alabama Supreme

8 Court and a former juvenile and domestic

9 relations judge in Baldwin County.

10 I want to say for the Record that I

11 actually am a member of this committee. And

12 this is pursuant to a federal court order in

13 previous litigation concerning the Alabama

14 Child Support Guidelines.

15 I make that point to say that that is

16 different. Justices of the Alabama Supreme

17 Court are assigned to various committees that

18 we have, but typically the justices serve

19 only as a liaison to the committee, not a

20 member of the committee. And my role in this

21 case is unique. I want to make that point.

22 MR. BAILEY: And we're glad to have you.

23 MS. CAMPBELL: I'm Angela Campbell. I'm

Meeting 7


1 the DHR Program Manager in Mobile County.

2 MS. NELSON: I'm Faye Nelson. I'm the

3 Child Support Director for the State of

4 Alabama.

5 MS. BUSH: I am Jennifer Bush, DHR legal

6 counsel.

7 MR. BAILEY: Okay. Michael.

8 MR. POLEMENI: Michael Polemeni. I'm a

9 private citizen and a member of the Alabama

10 Family Rights Association and the National

11 Parents Organization.

12 JUDGE BELL: My name is Billy Bell, and

13 I'm a Circuit Judge in Madison County. And I

14 practiced primarily family law for 30 years

15 before I was elected in 2002 to the bench.

16 MS. DAVIS: I'm Penny Davis from the

17 Alabama Law Institute.

18 MR. BAILEY: At our meeting on

19 February 7th, I asked people to give us the

20 years, the number of years they've served on

21 the committee, and I totaled up 93. So

22 that's a lot of years for all of us to serve

23 as a member of this committee. Total years

Meeting 8


1 93.

2 I'll now entertain a motion to approve

3 the transcript. Did everyone have a chance

4 to read the transcript?

5 Bob, I believe you have a copy of it for

6 us here?

7 MR. MADDOX: Yes, sir.

8 MR. BAILEY: Any comments? I do have one

9 suggestion and possible correction. There

10 was a statement on page 87, line 9 from

11 Mr. Boyd -- Boyd Landry, attorney from Elmore

12 County.

13 He referred to the spirit of tenus. And

14 that was the Court of the Civil Appeals. And

15 I think he meant ore tenus. So we'll suggest

16 that we make that correction. You may want

17 to check your date and see, but I think he

18 meant ore tenus.

19 MR. LANDRY: I'm sure that's what I said.

20 MR. BAILEY: I'm sorry?

21 MR. LANDRY: I'm sure that's what I said.

22 MR. BAILEY: Boyd, is that -- are you

23 here? I didn't see you over there. I -- I'm

Meeting 9


1 sure you meant ore tenus.

2 MR. LANDRY: I'm -- I'm -- I'm almost

3 positive that that's what I said.

4 MR. BAILEY: I'm not aware of the Court

5 of Civil Appeals playing tennis during their

6 breaks, but it could be so.

7 Let me introduce Aubrey Ford. Aubrey,

8 you introduce yourself, Judge Ford.

9 JUDGE FORD: Aubrey Ford, Macon County

10 District Judge. I've served for 35 years and

11 about to quit.

12 MR. BAILEY: Judge Ford and I are two of

13 the original members of this committee

14 appointed in -- I was going to say --

15 original committee members appointed back in

16 1980. Isn't that right, Aubrey?

17 JUDGE FORD: Yes.

18 MR. BAILEY: It was a different name and

19 a different committee organization. We're

20 two of the original members, and we need our

21 walkers before we leave. Good to have you.

22 JUDGE FORD: Good to see you.

23 MR. BAILEY: Transcript. Let's go back

Meeting 10


1 to the transcript. Any other corrections?

2 Boyd, is that -- I'm sure you meant ore

3 tenus.

4 MR. LANDRY: And I'm not a lawyer either.

5 So if that's the...

6 MR. BAILEY: That's the term.

7 MR. LANDRY: All right.

8 MR. BAILEY: You got it. We'll make that

9 correction. Any other changes or corrections

10 to the transcript from our November 7th

11 meeting?

12 MR. PASCHAL: Sir, I'm from -- I'm just a

13 citizen. But regarding this transcript, I

14 don't know that it's a bigger deal, but I had

15 an opportunity to read it.

16 The reference to Mr. Davis on several

17 pages, I think that was incorrect. I think

18 it should have been Mr. Smith as I was

19 reading it. It's --

20 MR. BAILEY: Bob, I think you and I

21 talked about that as well. We need to make

22 that correction. Good point. I -- I omitted

23 that. That name needs to be changed.

Meeting 11


1 Any other suggestions, corrections,

2 comments about the transcript?

3 (No response.)

4 MR. BAILEY: All right. With those

5 corrections, I'll entertain a motion to

6 accept or approve the transcript from the

7 February 7th meeting. Do I have a motion,

8 please?

9 MS. KIMBROUGH: So moved.

10 MR. BAILEY: That's Julia, Julia

11 Kimbrough. Second?

12 JUDGE BELL: Second.

13 MR. BAILEY: Judge Bell. All in favor

14 say I.

15 (Everyone responded.)

16 MR. BAILEY: Opposed?

17 (No response.)

18 MR. BAILEY: All right. The transcript

19 is approved. All right. Our business is

20 review of schedule starting out as our first

21 topic number three, review of schedule.

22 At our last meeting it was discussed that

23 we contact Jane Venohr who helped us do all

Meeting 12


1 the guidelines and research and do the

2 schedule last year -- about four years ago,

3 excuse me, about updating the schedule and

4 how much that would cost.

5 Bob, can you give us a quick report on

6 that, please?

7 MR. MADDOX: Yes, sir. I was unable to

8 attend the -- the last meeting. But Gordon

9 Bailey, Alex Jackson and the Supreme Court

10 Clerk's Office and I got together. And we

11 from the last transcript contacted -- I

12 contacted Jane Venorh by e-mail. And she

13 gave us an estimate.

14 And I probably just need to read this

15 verbatim just to be exact what she said in

16 her e-mail.

17 MR. BAILEY: Good idea.

18 MR. MADDOX: This was from Jane Venohr,

19 May the 21st of this year. We're billing

20 about $20,000 now for a scheduled update with

21 realignment for low income status. That

22 includes a report, comparisons and some

23 limited additional analysis on a specific

Meeting 13


1 issue, for example, tax consequences. Home

2 site presentation arranged from about $2500

3 to $7000 depending on travel, length of

4 presentation and amount of preliminary

5 analysis. A higher amount involved something

6 like 60 slides is a little extreme.

7 Analysis of other issues, for example,

8 parenting time adjustments, analysis of case

9 file data range from about $500 to over

10 $10,000. If it's an issue we looked at

11 recently, the cost could be on the low end.

12 If it's an issue we've never looked at

13 and would require extensive data analysis of

14 thousands of case files, the billing of the

15 data field is on the high end.

16 So I would guesstimate that 20,000 to

17 $35,000 would be the total depending on

18 whether Alabama really needed the last two

19 tasks.

20 MR. BAILEY: All right. Obviously, our

21 committee has no budget. Let's discuss how,

22 what amount -- Julie, I'm sorry. I didn't

23 see you.

Meeting 14


1 JUDGE PALMER: I just walked in.

2 MR. BAILEY: Would you introduce

3 yourself, please?

4 JUDGE PALMER: Julie Palmer, Circuit

5 Court Judge, Birmingham Division, Domestic

6 Relations.

7 MR. BAILEY: Julie, good to have you with

8 us.

9 JUDGE PALMER: Good to be here.

10 MR. BAILEY: Let's have some discussion

11 about what we want to ask, a recommendation

12 to the Supreme Court about funding, how much

13 we think we're going to need, what we'd like

14 for Jane to do or anybody that takes this

15 task on for us. Let's have some discussion

16 about that.

17 Anybody want to talk about...

18 JUDGE BELL: Is she the only source for

19 this work?

20 MR. BAILEY: Bob, you put out a request

21 for services four years ago, five years, six

22 years ago. And how many responses did we

23 have?

Meeting 15


1 MR. MADDOX: Basically, just her. And,

2 certainly, Mr. Rogers --

3 MR. BAILEY: Right.

4 MR. MADDOX: -- came to our meeting, an

5 he had -- we paid for -- and that was

6 something that I did want to point out from

7 the last transcript.

8 I think a comment was made that his cost

9 of coming here and doing the study was fully

10 borne by the Alabama Family Rights

11 Association. But we did do a contract with

12 AOC. They may have paid some of it, but we

13 did do a contract between AOC and him to do

14 the study of about $15,000 --


16 MR. MADDOX: -- in 2006. So we sent out

17 about -- we didn't know how to do this in

18 terms of economics data analysis. We

19 basically sent it out from the division of

20 purchase. The Department of Finance sent us

21 a list of who basically did analyses of some

22 sort, and it was totaling over 1100 people.

23 So we sent all of that -- that was back

Meeting 16


1 in the mail days back in 2005. So we mailed

2 all of those out from our office as well as

3 to all 29 universities and colleges in the

4 state that may have business departments or

5 economics departments.

6 And Jane Venohr was the only one that

7 submitted a request by the deadline date that

8 year.

9 MR. BAILEY: Right. Billy, does that --

10 Judge Bell, does that answer your question?

11 I'm sorry.

12 JUDGE BELL: It did. And it's just...

13 MR. BAILEY: Mike, did you want to say

14 something?

15 MR. POLEMENI: Yes, sir. Researching in

16 Massachusetts, they did a -- their child

17 support committee just did their guidelines,

18 and it went into effect yesterday, August 1.

19 New Hampshire and Iowa redid -- just did

20 their child support guidelines. And they

21 went into effect July 1 of 2013.

22 New Jersey was April 1, 2013.

23 Georgia is meeting today also for their

Meeting 17


1 child support committee.

2 I don't have it written down, but I have

3 a -- copies of their guidelines on a thumb

4 drive.

5 There's a group out of Massachusetts that

6 did their guidelines. And they're doing

7 their guidelines on net income versus gross

8 income. And there are a lot -- I've got

9 copies of all of their guidelines they have

10 if you want to review those. That's a lot of

11 information.

12 MR. BAILEY: Now, when you say they redid

13 their guidelines, you mean they redid the

14 whole guideline approach? Adopted another

15 model? Or they --

16 MR. POLEMENI: No. No. They -- they're

17 doing -- they did what we did, what we're

18 doing now.

19 MR. BAILEY: Redid the schedules?

20 MR. POLEMENI: Redid the schedules. In

21 fact, they all -- they all lowered the

22 schedule overall. But they're all income

23 based also.

Meeting 18


1 MR. BAILEY: Similar to ours that appear

2 here?

3 MR. POLEMENI: Right.

4 MS. DAVIS: Hey, Mike, do you have any

5 idea how much those costs?

6 MR. POLEMENI: No. No, I don't. I'd

7 have to -- on the Massachusetts, they

8 reference the gentleman that did it. And --

9 but they have all of that data in -- in -- on

10 that thumb drive if you want a copy of that.

11 MS. DAVIS: We need to follow up.

12 MR. BAILEY: Bob, didn't Jane also

13 mention she was going to try to check with

14 Arkansas to see if we might borrow their

15 report to save a little money and --

16 MR. MADDOX: Yes.

17 MR. BAILEY: -- that might help us in the

18 long run?

19 MR. MADDOX: Yes, sir.

20 MR. BAILEY: Any other -- let's talk

21 about how much, or what direction we want to

22 go in. Do we want to look at redoing the

23 schedule only?

Meeting 19


1 Do we want to look at redoing the whole

2 concept of the guidelines? I don't think we

3 want to do that after all 13, 15 years we've

4 spent passing the new ones in '08.

5 Let me have some discussion from the

6 committee please about where we want to go.

7 MR. POLEMENI: Well, I think that the

8 guidelines are necessary when they're

9 necessary.

10 Shared parenting would be the ideal

11 situation. It would save the courts money.

12 It would save the state money overall if the

13 agreements are made and let the parents

14 negotiate if they're -- if they're fit

15 parents.

16 If there's no -- and I'll read something

17 here out of the WebMD.com July and August

18 2013. And they're talking about that parents

19 need to stay involved. The most important

20 thing from a man's point of view is his child

21 wants him and his child needs him says Gordon

22 E. Finley, Ph.D.

23 Maintaining the relationship is important

Meeting 20


1 for your child's development outcome, social

2 emotional and education. And then they go in

3 there -- and I think that's some of the same

4 things we've said here in these meetings over

5 the years.

6 MR. BAILEY: Right. Right.

7 MR. POLEMENI: And following those

8 guidelines, I think, you know, for fit

9 parents shared parenting would save everyone

10 money in the long run and do away with the

11 guidelines completely for those specific

12 things.

13 Now, the courts need to address the

14 guidelines when -- when it's necessary.

15 MR. BAILEY: Aubrey.

16 JUDGE FORD: I think the only competing

17 interest you have here is the fact that you

18 have those persons who at one time were

19 married and did have established

20 relationships with their children as opposed

21 to a majority of the cases that are probably

22 running through the system are those persons

23 who were never married, some of them that

Meeting 21


1 have established a relationship with the

2 children and some who do not.

3 And you have to take into effect how are

4 you going to establish that relationship if

5 indeed the person wishes to do that.

6 MR. POLEMENI: Right. Right. And that

7 would be where the courts really need to

8 concentrate their efforts.

9 MR. BAILEY: All right. So you would

10 suggest that we take another look at shared

11 parenting as it relates to child support; is

12 that correct?

13 MR. POLEMENI: Correct.

14 MR. BAILEY: All right. Do I have a

15 sense from the committee -- and I think,

16 Judge Bell, you mentioned this in the last

17 meeting that you wanted us to look at the

18 economics involved in the schedule and see if

19 anything has changed over the last four or

20 five years.

21 JUDGE BELL: I would. As I understand

22 it, that schedule hasn't been changed or

23 looked at since 2006. I came on the

Meeting 22


1 committee after that.


3 JUDGE BELL: I think we need to look and

4 see how the economics of Alabama will affect

5 that. Because it's based upon the amount of

6 child support that these parents are presumed

7 to provide. And I think the economics of it

8 would make a difference, or could make a

9 difference and we need to know that.


11 JUDGE BELL: What Michael was talking

12 about I think is one of the things that we

13 need to look at within the Rule 32

14 guidelines.

15 But the schedule itself I think needs to

16 be accurate if we're going to recommend that

17 it be continued at that level.

18 MR. BAILEY: I thought that you expressed

19 that at our last meeting.

20 JUDGE BELL: I did. I did.

21 MR. BAILEY: And we should at least do

22 that. Do we have a consensus that we would

23 like for Jane or whomever we select to look

Meeting 23


1 at the schedule, the economic part of the

2 schedule? Is that a good starting point for

3 us to begin?

4 JUDGE FORD: I agree.

5 MR. BAILEY: Penny.

6 MS. DAVIS: I agree. But as a practical

7 matter, we ought to address, are we -- do we

8 have authority to commit to hire someone? Or

9 are we just going to recommend that the court

10 hire -- that -- that that's the procedure

11 that we follow?

12 MR. BAILEY: I don't think we have any

13 committee funding.

14 MS. DAVIS: Well, that's what I'm saying.

15 MR. BAILEY: Our esteemed member of the

16 Supreme Court, I -- I don't think she's going

17 to sign the check.

18 MS. DAVIS: Okay. What are our

19 limitations? I assume we need to figure out

20 what kind of limitations we have before we

21 make any decisions.

22 JUSTICE STUART: Can I ask a question?

23 MR. BAILEY: Sure.

Meeting 24


1 JUSTICE STUART: I'm not sure about this.

2 This is Lyn Stuart. And I'm going to ask Bob

3 Maddox because he would know. Has this been

4 paid for with AOC money in the past? Or how

5 has it been paid?

6 MR. MADDOX: Well, in the past DHR has

7 helped us reimburse the costs of these

8 studies because it is related to child

9 support for the child support program.

10 JUSTICE STUART: That makes me feel a

11 little bit better.

12 MS. DAVIS: And everybody is aware that

13 the economics are difficult. And it

14 certainly is for the courts as well as

15 everybody else.

16 MR. BAILEY: Absolutely. Let's hear from

17 our finance man.

18 MS. NELSON: As -- as the DHR

19 representative, because this is a child

20 support issue, we draw down our 66 percent of

21 the cost with federal dollars.


23 MS. NELSON: I do have, because this was

Meeting 25


1 an issue that I saw that was on the agenda, I

2 have submitted a question to our federal

3 office that if this is something that the

4 committee recommends what would be the

5 process by which we would have to get federal

6 approval to pay X number of dollars.

7 You know, when you're talking about 30 to

8 $60,000, you may be able to pull down the

9 federal share, but someone still has to pay

10 that 34 percent state share.

11 So I don't know if that would come from

12 DHR or if AOC would have to cover that

13 34 percent cost, that difference in whatever

14 the hundred percent cost is.

15 MR. BAILEY: Bob, I think AOC covered it

16 last -- in '05 or '06, didn't it?

17 MR. MADDOX: Yes.

18 MS. DAVIS: Well, I make a motion --

19 MR. MADDOX: I would have to check with

20 our office, the administrative director. I

21 can't speak for him.

22 MR. BAILEY: Julie.

23 JUDGE PALMER: Julie Palmer. The only

Meeting 26


1 thing that I want to mention is that the two

2 studies last time, because I've been on the

3 committee I think since '04, is the -- even

4 the economic studies that they have are two

5 to three to four years old by the time they

6 collect all the data.

7 So there is no real time as to what

8 happened in 2012. It's going to be 2010,

9 2009 I would think just from the two studies

10 there were here last time that they would be

11 bringing any new economic data to us.

12 And we all know that the price of gas has

13 gone up from 2009 and 2010 to, I mean, you

14 know, I think this month alone it's gone up

15 16 cents. Or last month.

16 So just let everybody be aware of that.

17 That whatever data we get is going to be old

18 in comparison.

19 MS. CAMPBELL: Well, I have a question.

20 It's probably more ignorance than anything

21 else.

22 My name is Angela Campbell. According to

23 the amendment to guidelines, she did her

Meeting 27


1 study, Ms. Venohr did her study, economic

2 study and updated it to 2007 price levels.

3 I'm not an economist, but if we're

4 talking about redoing guidelines which are

5 going to be sort of permanent at least for

6 four years, do we want to do guidelines based

7 on the downturn in the economy? We're hoping

8 it will go up.

9 MR. BAILEY: Good question.

10 MS. CAMPBELL: There's another question

11 too. Income is income. Whatever income you

12 make, things are going up. Things are going

13 up everywhere.

14 If you're making less money than you were

15 making five years ago, which that's me, if I

16 had to go to court to get a child support

17 order it will be need to be based on what I'm

18 making now, not what I was, you know. That's

19 what I'm talking about.

20 MR. BAILEY: Good point. We would

21 certainly want to ask Jane what other states

22 are doing. She's just completed the Arkansas

23 report recently. So we could ask her what

Meeting 28


1 they did. We could ask her how far states

2 are going back in terms of number of years

3 and if she has to do something currently or

4 exactly what to do.

5 Yes, sir.

6 MR. POLEMENI: We're at the beginning of

7 the school cycle. Could we get, you know,

8 one of our major universities or several of

9 our major universities to pitch in and do the

10 study, or at least bid on the study?

11 MR. BAILEY: Bob.

12 JUDGE FORD: We tried.

13 MR. BAILEY: That's a good point though.

14 Today is tax free day, so I think we're all

15 here and can spend our money without paying

16 tax.

17 MR. POLEMENI: Usually we are at the end

18 of the semester when we do these things.

19 MR. BAILEY: Bob, did the University of

20 Alabama or Auburn respond last time?

21 MR. MADDOX: No, sir, not timely.

22 MR. BAILEY: I didn't think they did.

23 All right. Any other discussion on this

Meeting 29


1 issue because we've got a lot of issues to

2 cover?

3 By the way we had a new member join.

4 MS. MOORE: Mary Moore, Circuit Clerk

5 Perry County.

6 MR. BAILEY: Glad to have you with us.

7 Any other discussion on the direction, Bob,

8 we may want to give Jane in terms of putting

9 together a bid for us before we get down to

10 funding? Any other discussion on that?

11 JUSTICE STUART: Lyn Stuart again. I

12 think if there's any way that we could just

13 take Arkansas and make it applicable to

14 Alabama that's what we need to ask her to do.

15 I'm not sure we're in a position to pay for a

16 completely new study.

17 MR. BAILEY: I -- I'm not sure we are

18 either. She's offered to share the Arkansas

19 report with us, but she's having to get

20 permission from various levels. And we

21 certainly understand that. So, hopefully,

22 that will come through for us.

23 MS. DAVIS: Do you have a motion? Or...

Meeting 30


1 MR. BAILEY: We need a motion, we need

2 some direction for Jane too. Because Bob and

3 I tried to talk to her about some, you know,

4 issues to cover and get some direction and

5 some guesstimates, but I think we need a

6 little bit more specific direction for Jane.

7 MS. DAVIS: Well, I don't want to get the

8 cart before the horse. I think we need to

9 clarify the funding first.


11 MS. DAVIS: So my motion would be to give

12 the chairman authority to discuss all

13 possible funding sources, both federal and

14 state with DHR, AOC, the courts, the Feds,

15 anybody, random people we see on the street

16 and report back to the committee what funding

17 we have to work with. At that point, I think

18 we can then begin to give direction.

19 MR. BAILEY: All right. All right. Do

20 we have any -- you have a second to the

21 motion first? Or a second to the motion

22 first?

23 JUDGE FORD: Second.

Meeting 31


1 MR. POLEMENI: Second.

2 MR. BAILEY: All right. Judge Ford

3 seconded. Any discussion on the motion,

4 please?

5 (No response.)

6 MR. BAILEY: All right. All in -- let's

7 vote. All in favor say I?

8 (Everyone responded.)

9 MR. BAILEY: Opposed?

10 (No response.)

11 MR. BAILEY: All right. I'll assume that

12 mantle of responsibility.

13 MS. DAVIS: Good man.

14 MR. BAILEY: The next topic on the agenda

15 is health insurance. We talked a good bit

16 about that last time. Judge Bell, you want

17 to pick up that ball for us?

18 JUDGE BELL: Well, that's -- that's

19 just -- as a sitting judge dealing with child

20 support issues, that's just one of those

21 issues that I think we're struggling with.

22 I mentioned the case I got reversed on

23 for deviating from Rule 32 and not including

Meeting 32


1 the child support of a stepfather who was

2 covering not only his new wife and the

3 parties' two children but also his child by a

4 prior marriage added without any premium.

5 And I got reversed for that, and rightfully

6 so in that Rule 32 requires that that happen.

7 We had -- at the last committee we had

8 proposed a change to Rule 32 where we would

9 only include in the calculation a pro rata

10 share of the family policy premium.

11 Right now as we all know the Rule 32

12 guidelines require that the full family

13 premium be included in the calculation, which

14 quite honestly can result in some injustices

15 as it did I thought in the case that I had.

16 But I think we need to revisit the pro rata

17 share.

18 MR. BAILEY: Okay.

19 JUDGE BELL: And we should still have

20 that particular recommendation. Not that we

21 need to go exactly by that, but I do think we

22 need to revisit that issue.

23 MR. BAILEY: Penny, I know you were

Meeting 33


1 interested in us doing that when we convened

2 at that point.

3 MS. DAVIS: That's still an issue with

4 me. I think whether we -- the two thoughts

5 that come to my mind is that we might look

6 now a few years down the road and see what

7 other states are doing.

8 Because there's been a lot of change in

9 the health insurance industry, which we know,

10 and a lot to come which even the Feds don't

11 know I think what they did.

12 But it might be helpful, the states that

13 Mike had talked about, I don't know if they

14 did only schedule changes or if they also

15 looked and tweaked some of their guidelines.

16 But if might be helpful if we could have

17 maybe a subcommittee that Judge Bell could

18 chair.

19 MR. POLEMENI: It's a lot of data.

20 MS. DAVIS: And that would just focus on

21 what a number of other states have done

22 dealing with healthcare.

23 And if we can't decide on something, I

Meeting 34


1 think at the minimum we ought to give more

2 flexibility or discretion with the judges so

3 that when a judge who's looking at the whole

4 family picture like Judge Bell did in that

5 case --


7 MS. DAVIS: -- give him discretion that

8 the rule does not yet at this point give him.

9 MR. BAILEY: Right. Judge Bell, if I

10 asked to you chair a subcommittee -- and to

11 refresh everybody's memory, I thought our

12 subcommittees four or five, six years ago

13 really worked well in zeroing in on

14 particular topics, particular issues.

15 And, Judge Bell, would you mind assuming

16 that responsibility to chair a subcommittee

17 on the health insurance revisit?

18 JUDGE BELL: I'll be happy to on one

19 condition. That you put Ms. Davis who just

20 volunteered me to be on the subcommittee.

21 MR. BAILEY: She gladly accepts.

22 JUDGE BELL: I'm sure she does.

23 MS. DAVIS: That's the Baptist way, isn't

Meeting 35


1 it?

2 JUDGE BELL: I'll be happy to.

3 MR. BAILEY: Would anybody else like to

4 serve on this subcommittee? Julie would be

5 great. And would you like to as well? All

6 right. Julie and Julia. Wonderful.

7 MR. POLEMENI: I can't provide any legal

8 information, but I'm happy to help in any way

9 I can.

10 MR. BAILEY: All right. So we've got

11 Mike.

12 JUDGE BELL: Legal mind.

13 MR. BAILEY: All right. Judge Bell, we

14 have your committee assembled -- Penny, Julie

15 and Julia and Mike.

16 JUDGE BELL: Thank y'all very much.

17 MR. BAILEY: Okay. Thank y'all. That is

18 a big issue. Because I know we had a lot of

19 discussion about it before and spent a lot of

20 time on that particular issue.

21 All right. Any other comments on health

22 insurance or the health insurance issue as it

23 relates to the guidelines?

Meeting 36


1 MR. POLEMENI: What was the outcome of

2 the Amendment VI issue?

3 MR. BAILEY: Well, Alex, refresh my

4 memory. I thought you -- you were going to

5 be furnished a brief with some cites I

6 believe by the gentleman that addressed that

7 issue last time.

8 MR. JACKSON: Never got anything.

9 MR. POLEMENI: Which was, you know,

10 basically we can't -- the state can't compel

11 someone to buy insurance, which the courts

12 are doing in this instance.

13 JUDGE PALMER: Well, on that, the

14 Affordable Healthcare Act is going into

15 effect on January the 1st, 2014. Isn't the

16 federal government compelling people to buy

17 health insurance?

18 JUDGE FORD: They are.

19 JUDGE PALMER: Isn't that why that's

20 going to come out?

21 MR. POLEMENI: That's why Amendment VI

22 was approved by the voters is they don't want

23 to be compelled.

Meeting 37


1 JUDGE FORD: And another issue is whether

2 or not you can be compelled to buy family

3 coverage or only individual coverage. I

4 don't know under the healthcare reform if

5 that's the case.

6 MR. BAILEY: Jennifer, you did a little

7 research I believe on this recently on this

8 issue about the conflict between the

9 constitutional amendment and that, health

10 insurance guidelines.

11 MS. BUSH: Well, the research I came

12 across indicated that the purpose of the

13 amendment, Amendment VI, was not to address

14 child support but was geared towards the

15 federal healthcare mandate. And it was not

16 geared towards this, and that was not the

17 purpose and the intent.

18 MR. POLEMENI: Uh-huh.

19 MR. BAILEY: And wasn't there --

20 MS. BUSH: And, actually -- I don't know.

21 This hasn't been decided by the court. But

22 one has to wonder if a federal statute would

23 trump a state constitution.

Meeting 38


1 I mean, we do have an amendment in our

2 state constitution. But is it going to be

3 effective over a federal statute?


5 MS. BUSH: I would think federal would

6 trump state.

7 MR. BAILEY: And refresh my memory. You

8 did a little research I know on whether or

9 not requiring a parent to contribute to

10 health insurance and medical costs is or is

11 not unconstitutional or constitutional. And

12 the court didn't address it if I remember

13 right.

14 MS. BUSH: The court -- what I found, the

15 decisions I found, they did not specifically

16 address Amendment VI and child support but

17 indicated that it would not be

18 unconstitutional. That it would be

19 constitutional to require someone to provide

20 health insurance for their child.


22 MR. POLEMENI: So we're back to what

23 Judge Stuart stated is that we're going to

Meeting 39


1 have to run it through the system if we're

2 going to contest it.

3 JUDGE BELL: That's right.

4 MS. BUSH: But that specific question,

5 Amendment VI and child support, has not been

6 decided.

7 MR. BAILEY: Right. I think that's the

8 correct status right now. Okay.

9 All right. Any other comments,

10 discussion on health insurance in light of

11 what we just talked about? Any other

12 comments?

13 (No response.)

14 MR. BAILEY: All right. Let's now go to

15 tax deduction and dependents. We had a good

16 bit of discussion about that at our

17 February 7th meeting. Judge Bell, you asked

18 us I think to take a look at that as well.

19 JUDGE BELL: I did. I seem to be causing

20 all the problem. But that is just one of

21 those areas --


23 JUDGE BELL: -- too where I think judges

Meeting 40


1 need to have more flexibility. Because Rule

2 32 builds into the calculations that the

3 custodial parent is going to get the tax

4 exemption.

5 But we all know child support is not tax

6 deductible by the paying party. It's not

7 taxable to the receiving party. And that may

8 be true, but there's a lot of cases where

9 that is just not the fair thing to do if

10 you've got several children and there's a lot

11 of child support being paid.

12 I just think it's something we need to

13 look at and make sure we can breathe into the

14 guidelines some flexibility for the judges to

15 deviate on that particular issue. That --

16 that's just my...

17 JUSTICE STUART: Would it be a

18 satisfactory solution in that particular

19 issue to include that among the grounds for

20 which a judge can deviate, and specifically

21 say that in the rule? And then, I mean, I

22 just trust the judges overall.

23 JUDGE BELL: Thank you.

Meeting 41


1 JUSTICE STUART: I think they can use

2 discretion given the facts in a particular

3 case and in maybe the particular situation.

4 JUDGE BELL: I think that would be

5 wonderful. And that might be a good thing to

6 do on the health insurance issue too, to

7 breathe some flexibility into it. I do think

8 that would work like that.

9 JUSTICE STUART: I can further state that

10 I think that is something that if this

11 committee chose to do it it could do sooner

12 rather than later.


14 JUSTICE STUART: And certainly not wait

15 until we look at the guidelines themselves.

16 MR. BAILEY: Absolutely.

17 JUSTICE STUART: It might really be

18 helpful to the trial judges and the families

19 of the state.

20 MR. BAILEY: That is an excellent point.

21 JUDGE BELL: I agree.

22 MR. BAILEY: We don't need to delay some

23 decisions like that on funding and a new

Meeting 42


1 economic review. We can make those decisions

2 quickly. Good point.

3 Do we want to have some more discussion

4 about that?

5 MR. POLEMENI: A lot of the states on my

6 list that made decisions were going with net

7 income versus gross.

8 And I know there are some people that lie

9 about their net income or hide income between

10 gross and net. But the majority -- and that

11 would be something where the judge could, you

12 know, get validation.

13 But if we just looked at taking out state

14 and federal taxes as a complement of that.

15 JUDGE FORD: I see where -- I was going

16 to ask you what is your definition of net

17 income.

18 MR. POLEMENI: Yeah. Yeah.

19 JUDGE FORD: It can get really cloudy as

20 we go down the list.

21 MR. POLEMENI: I would say taxes, you

22 know.

23 JUDGE FORD: Okay.

Meeting 43


1 MR. BAILEY: All right. Any other issue

2 or discussion on that particular issue?

3 And to follow up on Justice Stuart's

4 suggestion, are there any other issues that

5 we want to address quickly in the next --

6 maybe by the next meeting to have some

7 language drafted other than her suggestion

8 about deviation on that issue?

9 Any other issues that we want to -- yes.

10 MS. BUSH: Are you talking about tax

11 deduction and health insurance, both of those

12 issues, giving the judge the authority to

13 deviate?

14 MR. BAILEY: I think we certainly could.

15 And, Billy, if you could have us a report --

16 I don't want to push you, but if you could

17 have us a report by the next meeting, we

18 might be able to adopt some of that language.

19 JUDGE BELL: Good. I'll do that.

20 MR. BAILEY: That was an excellent

21 suggestion that we move forward on some of

22 the -- tweak some of the guidelines that are

23 not working as well as they possibly should

Meeting 44


1 for our trial judges.

2 Any other suggestions or other issues

3 besides those two that we could address

4 quickly and possibly by our next meeting?

5 (No response.)

6 MR. BAILEY: Okay. We'll move on then to

7 child support and visitation and shared

8 placement.

9 Mike, do you want to take that over?

10 Because I know you're interested in that

11 issue quite a bit.

12 MR. POLEMENI: Well, basically, you know,

13 that goes back to the shared parenting issue.

14 And those parents that can negotiate or

15 mediate a shared parenting arrangement should

16 be able -- should be allowed to do so and not

17 be hindered by the courts based on their

18 assumption of what should be done.

19 They may want to review it. But if it's

20 already been mediated by lawyers, why should

21 the judge disagree?

22 And I believe the state states that in

23 its bylines that if you have an agreement, or

Meeting 45


1 maybe it's a rule -- I don't know. But if

2 there's an agreement before the court, the

3 court should accept it unless it's woefully

4 deficient for some reason or other.

5 MR. BAILEY: Well, let's ask our judges

6 what's going on in your courtrooms around the

7 state as we speak.

8 Julie, you want to take that first?

9 JUDGE PALMER: Yes. My usual standard of

10 review is if both parties are represented by

11 counsel and they've got shared custody,

12 whether it be four days with me and three

13 days with you, or I get or you every other

14 weekend during the school year, and then I

15 get her every other weekend during the

16 summer, however you want to call it, as long

17 as both parties are represented by counsel

18 and they agree to deviate from the child

19 support guidelines, whether it be zero,

20 whether it be zero but you're responsible for

21 the child -- for the daycare, I'm responsible

22 for out-of-pocket medicals, however you agree

23 to it, then 99.9 percent of the time I will

Meeting 46


1 sign that.

2 It's when there's one party represented

3 by counsel and the other party is self-

4 represented and the self-represented person

5 gets the children but gets no child support

6 because it's called joint custody or shared

7 custody, I just don't sign that.


9 JUDGE PALMER: Especially, let's say they

10 are suppose to get $95 and they are supposed

11 to get $495.

12 MR. POLEMENI: Yeah. And that's a fair

13 assessment. I would -- I would have no

14 problem with that myself. But that's --

15 that's -- that's -- I wish all -- and that's

16 one of the problems that we have is 67

17 counties in Alabama without -- with I don't

18 know -- I don't know the number of judges in

19 each county, but they all do something

20 different.

21 There's no concise and consistent finding

22 of facts. And maybe that -- maybe that's the

23 answer is that we have not a finding of fact

Meeting 47


1 worksheet along with the child support

2 guidelines so that -- to address that.

3 MR. BAILEY: Well, Delaware being the

4 smallest state with three counties has a

5 statewide family court. So in any of the

6 three counties you get the same visitation

7 basically scheduled, the same family law

8 issues are dealt with, you know, consistently

9 in all three counties.

10 With 67 counties it's been proposed

11 before and during my lifetime, Bob, and I

12 know yours too that we have a statewide

13 family court, but I don't think that's going

14 to happen while we're still all here.

15 MR. POLEMENI: Because for -- if both

16 parents are fit, it should be fairly easy for

17 the courts to make a decision in my mind.

18 It's not, of course, when you have the

19 unfit parent. That's when you get into the

20 problems. And I think making fit parents

21 have to go -- right now in my opinion you're

22 making -- fit parents are being treated as

23 unfit parents.

Meeting 48


1 JUDGE PALMER: Well, I think -- yeah.

2 JUDGE FORD: I think a lot of it too is a

3 training issue. We've not had a major child

4 support training in a while.

5 And so -- and we have a new, whole new

6 crop of judges that have come on within the

7 last six years.

8 And so we really -- some of this could be

9 resolved through just more concerted training

10 of our judges in a setting so we can discuss

11 these things and how they are applied. So we

12 have a real training issue problem too.

13 MR. BAILEY: Mr. Landry brought that to

14 our attention on February 7th, and we

15 discussed a good bit of training in Alabama

16 for judges and so on. And I'm sure that

17 warms your heart for Judge Ford to say that.

18 MR. LANDRY: Yes, it does.

19 MR. BAILEY: And I still want to try to

20 rein us in a little bit. Visitation schedule

21 statewide is not our charge. We are involved

22 with the placement of child and visitation of

23 children as it relates to Rule 32.

Meeting 49


1 I don't think it's our charge to develop

2 a statewide visitation schedule that everyone

3 will love.

4 JUDGE PALMER: And I think we've got to

5 get away from the word "visitation" period.

6 A parent does not visit their child. A

7 parent is -- they -- they co-parent.


9 JUDGE PALMER: You maybe have a custodial

10 parent and a noncustodial parent, or a

11 secondary custodial time; but, you know,

12 we've got to get rid of the word

13 "visitation".

14 Grandma visits and Aunt Julie visits.

15 But parents don't visit. They parent their

16 children. And that's one of the main things

17 we've got to get rid of.

18 I don't think it's in any of the

19 guidelines the word "visitation". But in all

20 the other statutes it's in clearly there.

21 It's called visitation. And we've got to get

22 rid of it as a whole.

23 JUDGE BELL: Gordon, there is a Family

Meeting 50


1 Law Task Force that is -- that is going to

2 start meeting. The first meeting I think is

3 next month and, maybe the end of this month

4 as a matter of fact.

5 But going back to the training that we've

6 talked about here, I do the family law

7 training for the new judges orientation.

8 They give me 45 minutes.

9 And I'm looking at these new judges who

10 are insurance defense lawyers or criminal

11 defense lawyers. And when I talk about Rule

12 32 and joint legal custody, they look at me

13 with the deer-in-the-headlight look and

14 saying what in the world are you talking

15 about.

16 But the only time -- and we've talked

17 about the lack of consistency from circuit to

18 circuit, but the only time -- I would much

19 rather parents make their own decisions and

20 decide their issues because they brought

21 these children into the world.


23 JUDGE BELL: And I would rather they do

Meeting 51


1 that. The only time I will send back or make

2 them revise the agreement is if they don't

3 use the correct terms for custody set out in

4 Section 30-3-151, or if it's the -- the

5 substance of it is not joint custody.

6 Sometimes people can get tricked like

7 that, and the agreement will say -- maybe

8 somebody is self-represented. It will say

9 joint custody, joint legal and physical

10 custody. The children shall reside primarily

11 with the mother, and the other parent will

12 get periods of joint custody as set out in

13 the visitation schedule attached hereto as

14 Exhibit 1.

15 Well, the appellate courts have said,

16 look, we got to look at the substance, not

17 the label. And I think it goes to training

18 for lawyers. I mean no disrespect to my good

19 lawyers, but they've got to use the right

20 terms. They've got to understand the

21 significance.

22 Because when it comes to a time to modify

23 that particular order, we've got to interpret

Meeting 52


1 what is it. And the appellate courts have to

2 say what in the world is this. And they

3 shouldn't have to. We have a statute that

4 defines these things.

5 JUDGE FORD: Billy, you also have the

6 pleasure of maybe -- I don't know whether

7 it's a pleasure or not having attorneys in

8 your court.

9 When you go through what I do on a

10 district court level, you have a pro se

11 litigant, not a pro se litigant but really

12 two pro se litigants because DHR says we have

13 nothing to do with parenting time.

14 So you are trying to forge an agreement

15 between two people that for a single moment

16 in their life loved each other, and since

17 that time they can't stand each other.

18 JUDGE BELL: I wish we could go off the

19 record whether I prefer my lawyers to pro se

20 because that apples in one hand.

21 MR. BAILEY: Well, Faye, bring us up-to-

22 date on DHR's training for your DHR child

23 support attorneys.

Meeting 53


1 I know, Jennifer, you have participated a

2 lot as well. Where are y'all on the training

3 of the DHR workers?

4 MS. NELSON: Well, you know, with funding

5 within our department just like any other

6 state agency --


8 MS. NELSON: -- we have not had any

9 direct group training for attorneys since we

10 have not had our child support conferences

11 within the past what, three years or so.

12 MR. BAILEY: About three years.

13 MS. NELSON: Jennifer does some, you

14 know, one-on-one, you know, when we're aware

15 of a new attorney that comes onboard. So we

16 utilize her knowledge, you know, to have one-

17 on-one communication with them. So she's --

18 she's the resource that we use --


20 MS. NELSON: -- for attorneys.

21 MR. BAILEY: Do you do any -- I'm sorry.

22 Go ahead.

23 MS. NELSON: We're trying to coordinate

Meeting 54


1 something with AOC right now to do some

2 specialized training as it relates to, you

3 know, the e-filing, you know, that's come

4 about. So that's pretty much where we are,

5 you know.

6 But as far as child support one-on-one

7 pretty much, you know, we have not have had

8 an opportunity to do that on a large scale,

9 you know, with attorneys.

10 MR. BAILEY: Right. Back in the days

11 before IV-D when it was a III-D program --

12 I'm kidding.

13 Back in the early days of getting the

14 program started, we used to do training for

15 judges, new judges in different circuits when

16 they took the child support docket over. We

17 would assemble a team and go in.

18 Are you doing any of that now with AOC?

19 MS. NELSON: No, we're not.

20 JUDGE FORD: No.

21 MR. BAILEY: Bob, at AOC for these new

22 judges, are you bringing in anything other

23 for child support other than the modules that

Meeting 55


1 the Office of Child Support developed?

2 MR. MADDOX: Not on the module. Like

3 Judge Bell pointed out, we have new judge

4 orientation. And we only have a very limited

5 time on it. I go over the juvenile law. He

6 goes over the DR law. We both have a minute

7 amount of time to cover a lot.


9 MR. MADDOX: So we're hoping to do --

10 we're in discussions with DHR about doing

11 some supplements next calendar year if we

12 have the funding available --


14 MR. MADDOX: -- for judges, DHR attorneys

15 and other attorneys possibly. So...

16 MR. BAILEY: Billy, is the task force

17 going to look at training for judges and

18 lawyers in child support? Or is that...

19 JUDGE BELL: Gordon, I really don't know.

20 I just got appointed to the task force. And

21 our -- we're going to have our first

22 organizational meeting, so we don't know

23 where we are.

Meeting 56


1 I'm hoping we're going to look at a

2 global family law code for Alabama to try to

3 breathe some consistency in the process.

4 MR. BAILEY: That would be wonderful.

5 JUDGE BELL: But I don't know that for

6 sure.

7 MR. BAILEY: Keep us updated on the

8 family law committee.

9 Any other questions or concerns, comments

10 about child support and placement? We won't

11 use the term "visitation".

12 JUDGE BELL: Well -- and I brought it up

13 last time. We've got a provision in Rule 32

14 for how do you calculate child support in a

15 split custody arrangement where each parent

16 has got one or more children in his or her

17 physical custody.

18 But we don't have any provision in there

19 for how to calculate under joint custody

20 other than it's a recognized reason to

21 deviate from Rule 32.

22 And when we talk about consistency, I've

23 talked with judges all over the state, and

Meeting 57


1 there really is no consistency about how you

2 should calculate under Rule 32 --


4 JUDGE BELL: -- for the joint custody

5 arrangement. That may be something we want

6 to look at too.

7 MR. POLEMENI: Indiana parenting time

8 guideline including amendments received

9 through March 1, 2013, they're going into --

10 again, the Indiana Supreme Court, you know,

11 changed their terminology to parenting time.


13 MR. POLEMENI: I have the preamble here

14 if you want to look at that. That goes into

15 it. And, plus, I have the whole guidelines

16 out from Indiana on a thumb drive as well.

17 So...

18 JUSTICE STUART: One concern that I have

19 is if all of the legislation says visitation

20 for us not to track the legislation would

21 create more confusion. That may really be a

22 legislative issues.

23 JUDGE BELL: I don't know that that's

Meeting 58


1 something that our committee deals with. The

2 family law task force may be -- may be

3 looking into that.

4 MR. POLEMENI: Okay.

5 MR. BAILEY: All right. Any other

6 comments on that issue before we hear from

7 the public? We've got quite a few people

8 from the public here. I'd certainly like to

9 give them adequate time.

10 Any other comments on those issues or any

11 other committee issues before we hear from

12 the public?

13 Anybody else have any issues or concerns?

14 MS. DAVIS: When are we going to deal

15 with the letter we received?

16 MR. BAILEY: That's a good question. We

17 can deal with that now.

18 Judge Bell, do you want to give us a

19 little background about the letter that

20 Bob -- you sent to Bob and myself and that we

21 sent out to all the committee members?

22 JUDGE BELL: I appreciate it. It just

23 came to me in the mail. And it's from a lady

Meeting 59


1 who evidently went through a child support

2 case or cases in Limestone County. I didn't

3 handle the case because I'm in Madison

4 County. But I just thought it was something

5 that since it was addressed to the Advisory

6 Committee. She did send it to Chief Justice

7 Moore and to Jennifer and to me and Faye --

8 and sent it to Faye Nelson and a bunch of

9 senators and Kimberly Essick at the news.

10 But I just thought everybody ought to

11 know about it. I mean, there's a balancing

12 in here about trying to be fair to everybody

13 in trying to make this system as efficient as

14 possible.

15 I think a lot of it probably is our fault

16 by taking things for granted and just not

17 explaining things the way we should.

18 MR. BAILEY: She was speaking on the

19 perspective of both a custodial and a

20 noncustodial parent which I thought was

21 really interesting.

22 JUDGE BELL: It was.

23 MR. BAILEY: Faye, I know you got a copy

Meeting 60


1 of the letter. Any comments on the letter or

2 thoughts that you might have?

3 MS. NELSON: Well, you know, we're

4 limited in what we can share as far as our

5 involvement with the case --


7 MS. NELSON: -- because of

8 confidentiality. But I can say that the, you

9 know, the county department is involved with

10 the case.

11 As noted in the letter, there is a

12 hearing that's coming up as of next week.

13 And they will be addressing what has been

14 brought to the court's attention and to DHR's

15 attention at that -- during that particular

16 hearing.

17 MR. BAILEY: Anything else you want to

18 add about the letter?

19 JUDGE BELL: Well, it just goes with kind

20 of what we've been talking about. I don't

21 know that there's a lot of consistency

22 because I think there's a lot of moving parts

23 in the process, including judges.

Meeting 61


1 I am real fortunate in Madison County to

2 have two wonderful assistant district

3 attorneys that handle child support

4 enforcement. They're very knowledgeable.

5 They've taught me a lot of law.

6 But it's a situation where these things

7 can become a nightmare for both sides. You

8 can't get service. Maybe it's an interstate

9 situation and, you know, it's just -- it can

10 be a nightmare.

11 And we've got to realize most of these

12 people are unrepresented. They're

13 representing themselves.


15 JUDGE BELL: And so we've just got to --

16 I think we've got to be more sensitive to

17 their position.

18 MR. BAILEY: I agree. And, plus, such a

19 volume of cases. Judge Ford, how many cases

20 a week do you hear? Or a day.

21 JUDGE FORD: We're down to once a month

22 because we only -- we don't have enough

23 workers. We hired one, so now we have two.

Meeting 62


1 But we do it once month.

2 But the real issue we have in DHR cases

3 is they're not represented. They have --

4 unfortunately their relationship has broken

5 down to the point that perhaps mainly they do

6 not speak to each other.

7 So it's difficult in trying to formulate,

8 not only get the child support but

9 particularly in a county like mine where

10 employment opportunities are minimal, it's

11 not only getting the child support but also

12 trying to see what you can do to forward the

13 relationship to make insure the child has

14 parenting time with both parents. It's --

15 it's very, very difficult. But we keep

16 trying.

17 JUDGE BELL: Well, the problem is with a

18 lot of these people is there's been a

19 paternity or child support action filed.

20 Child support is ordered but there's no

21 visitation ordered.


23 JUDGE BELL: So when you come back on an

Meeting 63


1 enforcement, then the paying party wants

2 visitation. They serve the assistant

3 district attorney who immediately files a

4 motion to quash, which is rightly so because

5 the state doesn't represent the custodial

6 parent, because that's an implied award of

7 custody.

8 And I don't know if there's anything we

9 can do about it, but it doesn't seem right

10 there has to be two separate actions if

11 you're going to award child support and

12 there's an implied award of custody to the

13 receiving party. There ought to be some

14 mechanism by which we could deal with the

15 parenting time for the other parent, the

16 paying party.

17 MR. BAILEY: I know the Office of Child

18 Support and Enforcement was looking at this

19 several years ago and trying to create a

20 family friendly court in terms of a lot of

21 issues.

22 Faye, have you received anything from

23 OCSE on it lately?

Meeting 64


1 MS. NELSON: No, we have not. And as I

2 stated earlier, funding hit everybody pretty

3 hard. So any initiatives were not really

4 implemented within the past, you know, two or

5 three years.

6 There's a great deal of emphasis on the

7 child support program supporting fatherhood

8 programs --


10 MS. NELSON: -- where we're trying to

11 become more father friendly.


13 MS. NELSON: And not just enforcement

14 alone. And there's been grant opportunities

15 that one of our counties here in the state

16 have taken advantage of but, you know, with

17 funding sources that would end at the end of

18 this month. So there's just been very little

19 opportunity to reach out and expand beyond

20 what we're doing right now.

21 And I know you all mentioned about, you

22 know, the number of cases on your docket and

23 all of that. But I will say that in

Meeting 65


1 communicating with the county about this

2 hearing that's coming up next week, this

3 particular docket has over 70 cases on it.

4 MR. BAILEY: Right

5 MS. NELSON: So, you know, I will say

6 that the DHR staff are sensitive to, you

7 know, the case situation and that, you know,

8 I've assigned my field supervisor to also be

9 present to try to assist in trying to work

10 through whatever issues exist there. It's a

11 challenge for all the parties that's

12 involved.

13 JUDGE BELL: And when I say sensitive,

14 I'm talking about the courts too. I'm not

15 just talking to y'all. Everybody involved in

16 the process needs to be sensitive to the

17 emotions and the importance of this.


19 MS. DAVIS: One of the issues that came

20 out of her story -- and I'm sure it's not

21 anything you've not heard, but just sort of

22 thinking globally is her lack of success in

23 being able to ascertain the noncustodial's

Meeting 66


1 actual income.

2 And I wondered if that's something we

3 could look at just focusing on the child

4 support aspect of it and not the other

5 aspects. But in terms of discovery.

6 And I'd like some input or discussion

7 from the practicing lawyers and the judges as

8 to is there becoming -- is it more difficult

9 to get discovery.

10 Do we need to try to think in terms of

11 more teeth in the child support area? Or

12 something different than you normally have

13 which is contempt powers?

14 Should we write in some specific

15 financial records that should be required,

16 like your -- as an example, prior two years

17 of your federal income tax?

18 Certainly people can cheat on their

19 income tax but, you know, that would be a

20 source of financial information --


22 MS. DAVIS: -- that's available. Would

23 that help the DHR people if they can say to

Meeting 67


1 their clients you have to provide your

2 federal income tax or your state income tax?

3 Or can we put a requirement that if they

4 don't provide it, the court can -- or it can

5 be subpoenaed, that sort of thing?

6 MR. BAILEY: Well, to follow up on what

7 Judge Ford said, if you have unrepresented

8 litigants, I had a docket in Anniston when I

9 was refereeing of about 60 to 90 cases a day.

10 And when you have an unrepresented

11 litigant, discovery is an unknown issue.

12 MR. DAVIS: Right. Right.

13 MR. BAILEY: It's nonexistent.

14 JUDGE FORD: It does not exist.

15 MS. BUSH: Judge Gordon --

16 MR. BAILEY: Yeah.

17 MS. BUSH: -- Rule 32 has a requirement

18 that people bring their income statement or

19 tax returns, but as a practical matter what

20 has been done is people, you know, a

21 layperson may not know the content of Rule

22 32. They usually don't.

23 And if they come to court without that,

Meeting 68


1 if the judge continues the case and does not

2 set child support until that documentation is

3 provided, it may be set two or three months.

4 And you can, not always but you can end up

5 with a situation where maybe somebody chooses

6 not to bring their income just so that child

7 support can't be calculated.

8 MR. BAILEY: Exactly.

9 MS. BUSH: And eventually at some point,

10 you may have to impute minimum wage or just

11 take other testimony if you can't. So it may

12 be good to have some kind of --

13 MS. DAVIS: Penalty if they don't.

14 MS. BUSH: -- penalty. But I do think

15 judges already have that contempt power. If

16 the judge enters an order and says custodial

17 or noncustodial parent, whoever it is, you

18 must bring your tax return, your state -- you

19 know, a statement of your income and they

20 don't provide it, the judge can still under

21 the existing law find that person in contempt

22 for failure to...

23 MS. DAVIS: I think they can. But I was

Meeting 69


1 wondering if we could be more creative if say

2 the person fails after ordered to do so bring

3 their income tax then the presumption is that

4 the other party, the amount that they suggest

5 is presumed, and the burden is on the other

6 party to -- to -- who has failed to bring the

7 documentation, then they have -- that they

8 obviously can get, then they have to overcome

9 the burden some other way.

10 MS. BUSH: So I'm going to repeat this

11 back to you.

12 MS. DAVIS: We're married.

13 MR. BAILEY: She's back to marrying

14 Billy.

15 MS. DAVIS: He's the bad guy.

16 MR. BAILEY: When was the ceremony?

17 JUDGE BELL: I have grown my beard.

18 MR. BAILEY: Are you registered at

19 Macy's?

20 MS. DAVIS: All right. He's the one

21 that's a non -- either way, noncustodial,

22 custodial parent. He's refusing to give

23 information. I think he's making a lot more

Meeting 70


1 money than he has been paying. The child

2 support guidelines are currently based on the

3 amount that he was making four years ago. I

4 think he's making a lot more money.

5 And he's refusing to bring the

6 information. And I say -- he says he's

7 making 20,000. I say he's making 40,000.

8 If he after being ordered by the court to

9 provide the federal income tax documentation

10 or whatever documentation we decide, if he

11 refuses to do so, then there become a

12 presumption that the amount that I said is

13 the correct amount and he has to somehow

14 overcome that presumption.


16 MS. DAVIS: Now, the court doesn't have

17 to find him in contempt. But, clearly, if

18 he's not making the 40,000, it's going to be

19 to his advantage to say, okay, I'm not making

20 20, I'm only making 30. But just try to

21 think sort of outside the box in terms of the

22 way that we can encourage people.


Meeting 71


1 MS. DAVIS: But I also recognize we need

2 to balance so the children are not adversely

3 affected by anything that we do.

4 JUDGE PALMER: Well, there was a study

5 recently I'm pretty sure, not a study but a

6 report that about 48 percent of the people in

7 the United States don't file taxes.

8 And then in this case the guy was

9 self-employed. And you've not been his wife

10 for four years. So now how do you know he's

11 been making 40,000 when you've not been

12 around him for four years?

13 Maybe it's his lifestyle or something

14 like that. And the court can take that into

15 consideration. You make only 20,000 but your

16 house note is a $1000 a month and your car

17 note is $1000 a month and your utilities are

18 $1000 a month.

19 MS. DAVIS: But that's not -- it isn't

20 just because he goes out and buys a new house

21 or a new boat or whatever. What we're

22 looking at is just his income. So those

23 things don't really matter.

Meeting 72


1 JUDGE PALMER: Well, the court gets to

2 look at the lifestyle though. He might say

3 he makes minimum wage but --

4 MS. DAVIS: Oh, yes. Yes. I understand

5 what you're saying from the perspective

6 clearly.

7 MR. POLEMENI: I agree with, you know,

8 the way that Penny presented it sounds fair.

9 It puts the responsibility on that person to

10 come up with his taxes. Whether he files

11 taxes or not he has to come up with some

12 documentation of some sort that says this is

13 how much I make, and I only make this much

14 or, oh, I do make that much.

15 JUDGE BELL: Well, it ought to be on both

16 sides. We have to have both gross incomes.


18 MS. DAVIS: Exactly. Billy in this case

19 is the bad guy. He's he one that won't

20 provide the information. Whoever it doesn't

21 matter, custodial or noncustodial parent.

22 JUDGE BELL: I tell you how you might

23 could handle that from circuit to circuit is

Meeting 73


1 you could get a standing order from your

2 judges -- hold my calls -- if you could get a

3 standing order from the judges that would be

4 served with the pleading on a rule nisi order

5 or whatever type it is that is directed to

6 both parties in a child support case that you

7 are to bring to this hearing the following

8 documents.


10 JUDGE BELL: Failure to do so may result

11 in a dismissal of this case or an entry of

12 default judgment against you on the merits.

13 MR. BAILEY: That's a good idea.

14 JUDGE BELL: And that might be something

15 that the child support people, we wouldn't

16 have any problem having a standing order like

17 that in Madison County. It would help

18 everybody.

19 MS. CAMPBELL: It would stop the delays

20 too. You wouldn't have to delay the case.

21 JUDGE BELL: That's where the

22 frustrations come from is the delays.

23 MR. BAILEY: For a lot of litigants,

Meeting 74


1 facing a child support order delay is

2 wonderful to be honest about it.

3 JUDGE BELL: That's right.

4 MR. BAILEY: It's exactly what they're

5 looking for.

6 MR. POLEMENI: Back at the e-mail, the

7 woman that submitted that e-mail, but we've

8 been hearing that type of thing for the last

9 15 years. So men and women both.

10 And one of the issues that we have is the

11 contempt filings for not complying with

12 either visitation or, you know, parenting

13 time or coming up with documents or whatever

14 the case may be is some people get contempt

15 and are thrown in jail and other people don't

16 get contempt for -- for worse, you know, for

17 worse acts.

18 So have some -- what's the word I'm

19 looking for -- have some equity in applying

20 the contempt whether it be good or bad.


22 comments before we hear from the public?

23 Anybody else like to join in or add

Meeting 75


1 something?

2 (No response.)

3 MR. BAILEY: All right. Let's hear from

4 our public members in the audience.

5 Do you have a list? Who has -- Bob, do

6 you have the list?

7 MR. MADDOX: I haven't passed it around.

8 MR. BAILEY: That's all right. All

9 right. I believe you were here, this

10 gentleman was here first.

11 If you'll tell us your name. And we'd

12 like to limit your comments to about 10

13 minutes --

14 MR. CLARK: Okay.

15 MR. BAILEY: -- in that area if you could

16 since we have a lot of people here. Thank

17 you.

18 MR. CLARK: My name is Jim Clark. I'm

19 from Autauga County. Went through a divorce

20 in Tuscaloosa County. I got a couple of

21 points for Judge Bell.

22 On the tax exemptions, if it's mediated

23 and agreed upon in the divorce then

Meeting 76


1 consideration should be the judge doesn't

2 have discretion later to change that.

3 JUDGE BELL: Oh, I agree with that. I'm

4 talking about contested.

5 MR. CLARK: Mine was just changed after

6 eight years of mediated settlement.

7 The other thing for you, Your Honor, is

8 young adult insurance needs to be considered.

9 Now that it's up to 26, is it only the parent

10 that carries the insurance that bears the

11 burden of paying for it? Or do both parents

12 share that burden?

13 JUDGE BELL: Well, that's a Bailey case

14 consideration.


16 JUDGE BELL: It's before the Supreme

17 Court right now. We can't -- that may be a

18 non-factor.

19 MS. DAVIS: Well, the child support

20 guidelines don't really cover that anyway.

21 That's outside the perimeter of our...

22 MR. CLARK: But insurance is. And while

23 my children are in college even though they

Meeting 77


1 are post-minority, I still have the burden of

2 sharing expenses with my ex-spouse.

3 So when she graduates from college in 10

4 days, she doesn't have a job. Doesn't have

5 insurance. We're going to carry insurance

6 until she gets a job.

7 But the question is, you know, I've got

8 an ex-spouse who is willing to do that for

9 this child. But I know all parents aren't.

10 The second thing is, Judge Palmer,

11 visitation is mentioned throughout Rule 32.

12 JUDGE PALMER: Is it? Well, thank you

13 for pointing that out.

14 MR. CLARK: And as the noncustodial

15 parent, that is important. Because I get

16 that thrown at me all the time. The judge

17 says you get to visit once a month.

18 I say these are my kids. You know, they

19 live in Tuscaloosa, and I still have to drive

20 two hours to visit my kids.

21 The main thing I would like to bring up

22 though is military retirement.

23 MR. BAILEY: Okay.

Meeting 78


1 MR. CLARK: I had a judge in 2011 mandate

2 that military retirement for myself on a 1099

3 is income countable toward child support.

4 But she specifically mandated that it was not

5 income for my ex-spouse even though she

6 received the same 1099 that I did.

7 We asked for reconsideration. Two weeks

8 later I get a reconsideration that says no,

9 my ruling stands.

10 So I appealed at great expense. It went

11 to the appellate court. The appellate court

12 affirmed. No opinion.

13 Thirty days later in Santiago v. Santiago

14 that just came out in March, they defined

15 military retirement as income for both

16 parties.

17 So now at expense to me I've got to go

18 back to court to have that judge reconsider

19 based upon a new case something that -- I've

20 talked to lawyers in Washington, D.C.

21 I've talked to Mark Sullivan who wrote

22 the military divorce handbook. He said, Jim,

23 she was wrong. And I said, well, it's going

Meeting 79


1 to cost me money to prove she was wrong.

2 And now that I've got a case and case

3 precedent by the appellate court, I can go

4 back and fight for that to be changed.

5 But that's -- it's not in Rule 32. Rule

6 32 to me is specific. It says any source of

7 income. But yet the judge said since it was

8 divided as property at divorce it counts as

9 property for your ex-spouse.

10 And my attorneys fought and said, well,

11 then it's property for Mr. Clark. And the

12 judge says no. It's income for him.

13 So I'm not asking Rule 32 gross income be

14 defined any better because I think it's

15 great. But I'm asking for a note to be put

16 in there that military retirement is income

17 for both parties.

18 MR. BAILEY: Let me share with the

19 committee the cite of Santiago v Santiago.

20 That's the case you're referring to?

21 MR. CLARK: Yes, sir.

22 MR. BAILEY: March 8th, 2013?

23 MR. CLARK: Yes, sir.

Meeting 80


1 MR. POLEMENI: Yes.

2 MR. BAILEY: For the committee members

3 that would like to take a look at it, 2013

4 Westlaw 856670 Al.Civ.App. Thanks. Go

5 ahead.

6 MR. CLARK: It's also on Lexis, sir.

7 MR. BAILEY: I don't want to use my time

8 against your time. Go ahead. I'm sorry.

9 MR. CLARK: And I just have one question.

10 And I'm not sure. But it's for the DHR

11 folks.

12 I paid my child support within the first

13 10 days of the month for seven years. And

14 when I went back to court for a modification,

15 the judge mandated that I pay my child

16 support through Alabama Child Support

17 Services.

18 So now when I pay my child support in the

19 first 10 days of the month, my former spouse

20 doesn't get that money until the 19th or the

21 20th. And I get texts and phone calls, where

22 is my child support, check my child support.

23 Why am I being forced to pay for your

Meeting 81


1 service that to me doesn't benefit the

2 relationship with my former spouse? Is there

3 anywhere that I can't find that allows the

4 judge to mandate that for someone who has

5 never missed a child support payment?

6 MS. BUSH: Well, federal law requires...

7 MS. NELSON: Go ahead now. You got it.

8 MS. BUSH: Federal law requires that

9 every child support order has an income

10 withholding order.

11 MR. CLARK: Okay.

12 MS. BUSH: Federal law also requires the

13 office who is holding the orders go through

14 one central disbursement unit for every

15 single income withholding order. Now, we

16 have state law that corresponds with that

17 federal law.

18 But that is why your child support order

19 will have an income withholding in it. The

20 judge has discretion to not issue that income

21 withholding order to your employer, but at

22 any time it can be issued.

23 MR. CLARK: Okay. Ms. Bush, in my case

Meeting 82


1 I'm retired from the Air Force. I'm laid off

2 from a job. Been laid off since 2002. Went

3 back in the Air Force. Retired in 2009. I'm

4 in school right now.

5 My only income is retirement. I write a

6 check every month to Alabama Child Support

7 Services. It doesn't come out of my paycheck

8 because she gets 35 percent of my retirement,

9 and child support would exceed the allowable

10 government withholding.

11 So I have to write a check to Alabama

12 Child Support Offices when I would rather

13 write it to her.

14 MS. BUSH: And you're doing that

15 according to the judge's order?

16 MR. CLARK: The judge dictated in our

17 modification that I pay this service. She

18 gave me the address and said this is where it

19 goes to.

20 MR. POLEMENI: That goes back to Social

21 Security Act, Title IV-D and how every state

22 has to do that in order to get that Title

23 IV-D funding to get the --

Meeting 83


1 MS. BUSH: No. I mean, that's a judge's

2 order. That's the judge's order that he pay

3 directly to us.

4 MR. POLEMENI: I understand that. But

5 that's being funneled down.

6 MS. BUSH: Was DHR involved in your case?

7 MR. CLARK: No.

8 MS. DAVIS: What you might do when you go

9 back anyway is ask to let you pay her.

10 MR. CLARK: We asked -- in the appeal we

11 asked for reconsideration.

12 MS. DAVIS: Well, you're going back now

13 anyway --

14 MR. CLARK: Yes, I am.

15 MS. DAVIS: -- so you might as well ask

16 again.

17 JUDGE PALMER: Mr. Clark, how I was

18 taught as an attorney and how I was taught as

19 a judge, is if the income withholding order

20 will not be served, that's fine. We

21 recognize that all the time.

22 If it comes in front of me and I have to

23 try it, I don't have any option except to

Meeting 84


1 order an income withholding order.

2 Now, if I'm wrong, Mr. Bell, or anybody

3 please let me know. But as attorneys

4 that's -- that's what we were taught --

5 JUDGE FORD: Correct.

6 JUDGE PALMER: -- from day one in law

7 school.

8 MR. CLARK: Judge Palmer, neither party

9 brought it up. Neither party wanted this.

10 And the judge put it on the order.

11 MS. CAMPBELL: It's not DHR or it doesn't

12 sound like it's DHR. It sounds like it's the

13 for the payment center.

14 MR. CLARK: That's what I --

15 MS. CAMPBELL: The central site. For the

16 payment center is paying for the, if it's not

17 a DHR case, it does go to ACD which is

18 disbursement division.

19 And she has the option I believe to

20 either get payroll -- she can have it

21 deposited directly into her account or she

22 can get a check. Is that correct?

23 MR. CLARK: She does get it directly in

Meeting 85


1 her account. It's just the delay that

2 bothers her.

3 MS. CAMPBELL: That's not DHR. That's

4 ACD.

5 MR. CLARK: It's just the delay that

6 causes her financial concern. Because I pay

7 it about the same time. I pay it in the

8 first 10 days.

9 But in talking to child support, they

10 said Mr. Clark, you can pay it on the 25th.

11 It's okay.

12 MS. CAMPBELL: That's why the delay is in

13 the mail. It's mailed to Montgomery to ACD

14 and they have to process it is what it sounds

15 like it is.

16 MR. POLEMENI: It is the Feds, not

17 Alabama.

18 MR. CLARK: But that's not mandatory I

19 take it, the judge can do that?

20 MR. POLEMENI: No. From the Feds it is

21 mandatory from what I'm read.

22 MS. CAMPBELL: Only the wage withholding

23 orders are mandatory. It goes to the same

Meeting 86


1 payment center.

2 Now, if DHR is involved, it is going to

3 go to the same payment center because -- and

4 then come to us.

5 But if DHR is not involved, the only

6 thing that's mandatory is the payment going

7 to the payment center at a central site in

8 Montgomery.

9 JUDGE BELL: Unless the parties have an

10 agreement otherwise, Judge Palmer is exactly

11 right. That's my understanding of the law.

12 MR. BAILEY: Do you have anything else?

13 MR. CLARK: No. I just wanted to thank

14 you. This is the first time I've been here.

15 I think this is great. Because I think Rule

16 32 is a little vague in some areas, and

17 you're addressing the areas I'm concerned

18 with. Thank you.

19 MR. BAILEY: Glad to have you. Thank you

20 for coming. And we've got quite a few

21 experts in this group.

22 JUDGE FORD: Depending on what you're

23 calling an expert.

Meeting 87


1 MR. BAILEY: Well, in my court somebody

2 coming from 50 miles out of town with a

3 briefcase. And I have mine.

4 Okay. Who is our next speaker from the

5 public, please?

6 MR. PASCHAL: I'll go ahead. My name is

7 Kenneth Paschal. As I look around the room,

8 I know quite a few of the faces here. I'm

9 with the Alabama Family Rights Association.

10 I'm the director of governmental affairs for

11 our organization.

12 And our goal is to change the family laws

13 in Alabama that forces the child to hate one

14 parent, one-half of themselves, and also

15 places them in a disadvantage in society. A

16 child needs both mom and dad.

17 So we kind of echo what Mike mentioned

18 earlier, shared parenting. That's not an

19 issue before this committee, but it will be

20 resolved as we meet later on next month with

21 our legislators and meet with Mr. Maddox.

22 But the laws will be changed come January

23 of 2014 where Alabama will be mandated as a

Meeting 88


1 starting point to treat parents as if they're

2 fit.

3 For example in 2011, there's over 20,000

4 unwed custody cases in Alabama, unwed births.

5 That's just a lot of kids coming through the

6 courtrooms. 20,000.

7 There's also 21,000 divorces from one

8 child in their family to seven kids. Over

9 $40,000 kids each year coming through our

10 system.

11 And we talk about child support here. I

12 think -- I'm sorry. Reading the meeting

13 transcript from February, I think the only

14 training, a lack of, 40,000 kids deserve

15 better than what they're receiving here in

16 the State of Alabama.

17 So it starts with training. It starts

18 with -- I like your recommendation about

19 creating forms to share with the courts,

20 share with the family law attorneys, share

21 with DHR so we have at least some type of

22 procedure mechanism as a starting point.

23 But right now this letter that you

Meeting 89


1 received, I have about 20 in my e-mail box.

2 We deal with 67 counties. We don't just deal

3 with the Tuskegee area. We don't only deal

4 with Mobile. We deal with 67 counties. And

5 our kids are being destroyed because of no

6 training.

7 I had the opportunity to serve our

8 country for 21 and a half years in the

9 military. But for the last three years I

10 continue to serve our -- I volunteer my time,

11 no money and travel through each county. I

12 haven't made it to Mobile yet, but I'm

13 coming. We have to address this issue there.

14 But this letter from this young lady

15 is -- is -- it's occurring everywhere in our

16 counties.

17 You mention about how to determine

18 income. We have some judges say just give me

19 an affidavit. Well, they put any number on a

20 signed affidavit. That don't mean anything.

21 Well, a young lady in McCalla was evicted

22 from her home, four kids. And the judge just

23 turned her head.

Meeting 90


1 So training, we need -- we need to look

2 at our training. I don't think we can do it

3 in this forum either. But in subcommittees,

4 it's great to hear that.

5 One thing I would recommend on this

6 subcommittee since it's dealing with the

7 healthcare, health insurance, select someone

8 with a health background, in that field.

9 I know we have a, Dr. Roy, he was

10 selected by the governor on two different

11 healthcare committees before. He might be a

12 good candidate. That's one thing I would

13 recommend on the subcommittee is have someone

14 in the field.

15 And speaking about health committee or

16 health insurance, I had the opportunity to

17 spend time on the floor here with our

18 legislators when they addressed our health

19 insurance. And I asked that they go back and

20 look at the intent of the bill.

21 The intent is not to discriminate whether

22 you're divorced or whether it's a child

23 support or not. That was not the intent of

Meeting 91


1 this bill. The intent was not just for the

2 federal government. The intent was for all

3 citizens. So we do have to address that.

4 You know, if you'd like to know more

5 information one-on-one, I'll be happy to

6 share that because I work with our

7 legislators one-on-one about why that

8 Amendment VI was put on the, why they voted

9 for it, 58 percent.

10 And it was not because -- it was not to

11 alleviate or discriminate against our kids.

12 You know, if we gonna have mandated health

13 insurance, let's do it for every child. I

14 think every child should be given the

15 opportunity, same opportunity. It's just

16 something to look at there.

17 And as I look around at the committee,

18 the question -- when I first walked into the

19 room, I was like I wonder how many of you

20 will go to bed tonight and think about what

21 we're discussing, how many of you is a

22 noncustodial parent?

23 So it's good to see the public here

Meeting 92


1 because the decisions you make or you

2 recommend upstairs to the chief justices is

3 going to impact these people. It's going to

4 impact another 240,000 that's out there.

5 So -- but how many members on -- how many

6 members are noncustodial parents? If we

7 don't have any, I would recommend that we

8 possibly look at that, sir.

9 JUDGE BELL: Right.

10 MS. DAVIS: Michael.

11 MR. POLEMENI: Judge fits that bill.

12 JUDGE BELL: And I have been too.

13 MR. PASCHAL: Again, as we grow younger

14 and our lives change, what is important to

15 us? So once again, it's something to think

16 about.

17 Title IV-D funding, I had the opportunity

18 to go to Washington, D.C., in February and

19 talk about this issue. I asked them to

20 temporarily stop the Title IV-D funding to

21 Alabama until we fix this problem for our

22 kids.

23 I'm heading back in probably September.

Meeting 93


1 Hopefully, when I go back, we'll have some

2 information I can share with them saying in

3 Alabama we're making progress.

4 We're receiving federal money, but

5 there's criteria, there's guidelines that we

6 must follow. Not, not half but all.

7 And one of those requirements is

8 parenting plans. We're receiving federal

9 money for that. So I will probably head back

10 to D.C., next month. And, hopefully, we will

11 have a means to -- hopefully, I can give them

12 this news. But we have to -- we're accepting

13 federal money, but we're not using it for its

14 intended purpose.

15 But overall I think that training, I

16 think -- I think we hit it on the nose,

17 training. If you need any input, our

18 organization input, please let us know. You

19 got the -- Judge Bell, I had an opportunity

20 to sit with him a couple of years ago. Great

21 guy, you know. No. He is. I heard a lot of

22 bad things about him. But I sat down with

23 him. And I was like judge is a good guy.

Meeting 94


1 You know, I say that. But even DHR, you

2 hear all kind of war stories about DHR. But,

3 you know, DHR, you're doing the best you can

4 with the hand you're dealt with.

5 I appreciate the committee, and I

6 appreciate what you do. And we want to get

7 the public in here more often. Thanks for

8 your time.


10 And we always make ourselves available to

11 hear from the public at every meeting.

12 That's standard operating procedure for our

13 committee. We appreciate you being here.

14 Thanks for your time.

15 MR. POLEMENI: Mr. Paschal, since you're

16 going back to D.C., ask for some funding to

17 fund that study that we need.


19 members of the public?

20 MR. LANDRY: Boyd Landry, Elmore County.

21 I thought the -- a couple of things. One is

22 as it relates to tax deductions, the IRS is

23 fairly clear as to how it determines tax

Meeting 95


1 deductions. And why the state should get

2 involved in that I'm not really sure.

3 But the IRS on the federal side says if

4 you provide 50 percent plus one, then you

5 should get tax deduction. And -- now, the

6 state would have an interest in terms of the

7 state tax deduction, but with that respect on

8 the federal side.

9 And I think -- I think to solve another

10 issue that was brought up today would --

11 involves the gross income and people not

12 bringing the documentation, standing orders

13 that Judge Bell mentioned.

14 And I think that the CS41 and the CS42

15 don't follow the way Rule 32 is laid out.

16 And I bring that point up because I don't

17 think that if -- if there's not a definition,

18 a 1040 says income from wages. It says

19 non-wage income. It says gifts. It says

20 gambling. I mean, on down the line there is

21 a list of things on a 1040 that you have to

22 fill out.

23 Well, on a CS41 and a CS42, it just asks

Meeting 96


1 for that one number. And so if you want to

2 lie, you can do it. But it's a little harder

3 to lie if it says wage earnings, gifts from

4 other parties, you know, non-wage income, et

5 cetera, et cetera, et cetera, on down the

6 line, and you've got to physically go in

7 there and put numbers.

8 Then I think it becomes a little bit

9 clearer to both the court and the parties,

10 you know, as to what, you know, people --

11 granted people will still lie. But I think

12 by and large it lays out for the court and it

13 lays out for the parties what's required and

14 the documentation necessary to prove those

15 numbers.

16 And I think if we work in that direction

17 I think it will become a little bit clearer

18 for the court and then the court can decide.

19 You know, Judge -- Judge Palmer brought

20 up a case. I was involved -- I'm involved in

21 a case where the custodial parent didn't even

22 bring any documentation, and the court

23 ordered child support and said, oh, well,

Meeting 97


1 your numbers are right.

2 And I'm having to bring it up and say,

3 you know, you can't do that. You've got to

4 have something to -- to substantiate a

5 number. You can't just take an affidavit

6 without anything.

7 And that's the problem I think that a lot

8 of people are -- are dealing with is, you

9 know, because that -- because the custodial

10 parent is represented by a lawyer probably as

11 a result of the child support that I give her

12 and I'm not. Therefore, they must be right.

13 Well, those of you that are lawyers and

14 judges in this room, lawyers can lie in

15 Alabama as long as they are advocating on

16 behalf of their client.

17 JUDGE FORD: They're not suppose to.

18 MR. LANDRY: Hey --

19 MR. POLEMENI: It's been done.

20 MR. LANDRY: -- come on, judge.

21 JUDGE BELL: Are you saying they can? Or

22 they do?

23 MR. LANDRY: They can, and they do.

Meeting 98


1 JUDGE BELL: Well, I tell lawyers in

2 every single case, listen. I appreciate what

3 y'all do. I used to be one. But what y'all

4 say is not evidence.

5 I'm going to make my decision based upon

6 the testimony under oath and the documents

7 that are admitted into evidence. And that's

8 how it's --

9 MS. MOORE: That's right.

10 MR. LANDRY: -- suppose to be. But then

11 that tenus thing.

12 JUDGE BELL: Ore tenus.

13 MR. LANDRY: Ore tenus doesn't get --

14 doesn't get turned on, you know, on appeal

15 because of ore tenus. But, you know, that's

16 the highest burden you have to jump over.

17 It's -- it's higher than a tennis net for

18 lack -- for a good description. And so, you

19 know, I think those are things that need to

20 be -- be looked at.

21 And on the health insurance question,

22 Judge Bell, why should I be responsible to

23 pay for the health insurance of my ex-spouse,

Meeting 99


1 or a portion thereof when I can't afford to

2 have insurance on myself?

3 JUDGE BELL: Well, that's the principle.

4 That's what I'm talking about. That's the

5 basic unfairness built into it.

6 MR. LANDRY: And I think that's something

7 that really needs to be addressed and looked

8 at. Because, you know, we're about to get

9 into whole new territory when the federal

10 government starts to dictate on health

11 insurance. And I think that -- and I want to

12 echo the same comments I made back in

13 February. I think training is the absolutely

14 imperative thing.


16 MR. LANDRY: I think training needs to go

17 from DHR level to circuit level to judge

18 level.


20 MR. LANDRY: And even up to appellate

21 level.

22 You know, with all due respect, Justice

23 Stuart, there are not many of you that are

Meeting 100


1 family court judges.

2 JUSTICE STUART: That's true.

3 MR. LANDRY: And you're sitting there,

4 and you might have a clerk that has an

5 interest in family law but maybe not. And,

6 you know, decisions are being written and

7 decisions are being handed down by people who

8 have no experience or very little experience.

9 And live in our shoes for a day or two

10 and you might find it's a totally different

11 world in what we have to deal with as

12 noncustodial parents and custodial parents.

13 As a noncustodial parent, there's no

14 services for us. There's nothing. We have

15 to do it all on our own.

16 I know the DHR ladies are perking up, but

17 let's face it. Let's face it. It's not in

18 your best interest to have child support

19 lowered. So you're not going to jump through

20 hoops to help somebody who wants to get their

21 child support lowered like you would to

22 collect child support.

23 MS. CAMPBELL: I do disagree with that.

Meeting 101


1 MR. BAILEY: I'm going to give rebuttal

2 time. Don't worry.

3 MR. LANDRY: I've sort of been there.

4 I've seen this live and in-person and in

5 action.

6 MR. BAILEY: If I could, let me sum up

7 one of your points for you, and correct me if

8 I misstate it.

9 You're suggesting that we take another

10 look at the CS41 and 42 forms to further

11 specifically identify income?

12 MR. LANDRY: Yeah. I think -- I think

13 you would find that you might have an

14 opportunity to address some of these issues

15 with people not bringing the necessary

16 documentation.


18 MR. LANDRY: And you might want to say,

19 you know, for wages you have to bring your

20 last two months check stubs, you know, and

21 the tops from all income sources. You got to

22 bring the last two years of tax deductions.

23 If you receive interest from some amount of

Meeting 102


1 money you got as an inheritance, you know,

2 that's considered income. You've got to

3 bring your 1099s for those and on down the

4 line.


6 MR. LANDRY: Let's face it. If you just

7 bring a W-2 and you got a raise from the

8 state, it's not going to show up until, you

9 know. That's why you got to have the current

10 pay stubs.

11 JUDGE BELL: A raise from the state?

12 What state do you work for?

13 JUDGE FORD: That's not judges.

14 MR. BAILEY: Is there anything else?

15 MR. LANDRY: No. I think -- I want to --

16 I think it's a tremendous undertaking to

17 address these -- these issues. But I think

18 by and large you can alleviate a lot of

19 trouble if you -- if we got into some shared

20 parenting issues statewide.

21 I think there are certain pockets where

22 that goes on around the state, but it doesn't

23 happen everywhere.

Meeting 103


1 And that's -- that's principally, you

2 know, the biggest gripe I hear from family

3 court judges, and -- I know several of them.

4 The biggest gripe I hear from family court

5 judges is our dockets are just littered with

6 cases. And I think that part of that would

7 be alleviated with training and things we've

8 already discussed.

9 MR. BAILEY: Thank you very much for

10 being with us. I think we have some rebuttal

11 from this side of the room. Jennifer.

12 MS. NELSON: I'll be quiet.

13 MS. BUSH: I just wanted to say that DHR

14 does offer help with modifications. And you

15 can come to our office, and your local county

16 office.

17 If you have a problem in your particular

18 case, it's no -- this is not just custodial

19 parent, but anyone who has a problem with a

20 DHR case, we have an internal hearing process

21 where they can request a review. There's

22 several levels of review if you think your

23 particular case --

Meeting 104



2 MS. BUSH: -- something is not being done

3 that should be done, or they're doing

4 something they didn't do.

5 It doesn't have anything to do with the

6 courts. It's just an internal quality

7 assurance process that we have.


9 JUSTICE STUART: I just wanted to make a

10 comment so the record would be correct or at

11 least clear.

12 MR. BAILEY: Yeah.

13 JUSTICE STUART: The backside of CS41

14 does state all of these different types of

15 income that are included in income.

16 The front side does provide those to be

17 itemized separately as employment income,

18 self-employment income, other employment

19 related income, and other non-employment

20 related income, which is like the gambling

21 and the gifts and that type of thing.


23 JUSTICE STUART: The form requires that

Meeting 105


1 documentation be maintained, not produced for

2 court. And that's something we might want to

3 consider is requiring that it be produced.

4 I believe the reason that it says at the

5 present time maintained is I don't think we

6 all wanted all of this put in the court file.

7 MR. BAILEY: That's exactly right.

8 JUSTICE STUART: I still say we don't

9 want it in the court file. But we could

10 consider requiring that it be produced at the

11 hearing and a copy provided to the opposing

12 party.

13 MR. BAILEY: That's a great idea. Good

14 idea. Okay. Any other members from the

15 public? Oh, wait a second. You wanted to

16 make a comment.

17 MS. DREES: Yes. Thank you. My name is

18 Angela Drees, and I'm going to be speaking

19 with the AOC lawyer about a client later

20 today. So I just wanted to make two brief

21 points.

22 One of the things that I wanted to do, I

23 tried to get her to come herself but she's a

Meeting 106


1 victim of the court system. And so when she

2 tells her story, she can't tell it without

3 getting emotional. And it's not very

4 effective because the message gets lost in

5 the emotion.

6 But I did want to say it's a case

7 involving a lady named Angela Brasfield.

8 It's a Tuscaloosa case. She was a pediatric

9 nurse. And she had two very small children

10 ages two and four.

11 Her husband was having an affair. And

12 then he went to court in Tuscaloosa where he

13 was able to obtain custody of these two young

14 children away from Ms. Brasfield.

15 When the child support issue kicked in --

16 and I guess Ms. Davis touched on this when we

17 were talking about how do you find out about

18 people's income.

19 Well, in this particular case -- and it

20 happens every day -- the child support

21 discovery process was so aggressive in her

22 case that her employer was constantly getting

23 subpoenaed and deposed to find the

Meeting 107


1 information that they thought or they alleged

2 that she was hiding. So she kept losing her

3 jobs, and so was unable to pay her child

4 support.

5 And then when she was incarcerated at the

6 time that she couldn't pay her child support

7 because she kept losing her jobs, she came

8 out of jail and committed suicide. She

9 basically said that was it.

10 She was not allowed to see her children,

11 and she couldn't pay her child support. And

12 she knew her next option was going back to

13 jail. So she took her own life.

14 So I know these committees, you know, are

15 often conducted in a vacuum, but I did want

16 to bring up the issue because the mother

17 would have been here, but she can't tell that

18 story without getting emotional.

19 The other point I would like to make, and

20 I think this is more in line of why we're

21 looking for solutions here. I would

22 challenge you to think -- and I'm a trial

23 lawyer by trade. I've practiced civil

Meeting 108


1 litigation for 15 years. I've tried cases in

2 almost every court in the State of Alabama

3 and also in other states from probate,

4 district court, all the way up to federal

5 court.

6 What I would challenge you to is to think

7 about one day perhaps abolishing the family

8 court system altogether. And I'll tell you

9 why.

10 Litigation and court is an adversarial

11 proceeding by its very natural. And in a

12 case like this where the winner takes all,

13 there is no resolving cases. The ultimate

14 solution is winner takes all. Somebody is

15 going to win those kids. Someone is going to

16 lose them. And that's what the litigant

17 looks at when they see these cases.

18 I would challenge you to say that a court

19 system, an adversarial court proceeding is

20 the worst place to address what we've already

21 addressed as complex human emotions.

22 You know, you have a car wreck case. You

23 may be somewhat emotional about it, but no

Meeting 109


1 one is taking your children, okay? That is

2 not the kind of case that should be put in an

3 adversarial proceeding.

4 In addition, we have entire industries

5 set up that do a much better job dealing with

6 these complex emotional proceedings rather

7 than adversarial court proceeding.

8 Our churches do a better job of dealing

9 with these issues. Our psychology industry

10 does a better job in dealing with these

11 issues. And even right across the street is

12 an entire division on alternative dispute

13 resolution.

14 And if you ask Judith Keegan right now,

15 she says most judges don't even go into

16 mediation because the lawyers are too busy

17 making money off of these types of cases in

18 domestic court.

19 Now, I know that makes everybody

20 uncomfortable because we all have to make a

21 living. And I have no problem with that.

22 But if 40,000 kids are suffering as a

23 result of this adversarial proceeding -- and,

Meeting 110


1 again, there's no way to get out of the court

2 system. If one litigant wants to keep filing

3 and filing and filing, then you're in court

4 and you're in court perpetually, even now

5 beyond the age of majority.

6 So think about what we're doing. If you

7 keep doing what you've always done, you're

8 going to keep getting what you've always got.

9 I would challenge the entire panel to say

10 less intervention, not more. Reroute your

11 resources. Obviously, you don't have enough

12 on any single level. I haven't heard one

13 person say today I've got enough money to get

14 my job done. Not one single person.

15 So instead of putting more people in the

16 court system including 40,000 of Alabama's

17 children who are going to eventually need

18 jobs and be in positions where we're going to

19 need them -- we don't need them in jail. We

20 don't need they dead on drugs. We need them

21 productive Alabama citizens.

22 We're last in the country on almost every

23 issue. I mean, if we don't start looking at

Meeting 111


1 it from that perspective, I think we're

2 cheating ourselves. And we have can coffee

3 all day long, but we're not getting to the

4 root of the problem.

5 MS. DAVIS: Can I make a comment

6 regarding her last comment in terms of the --

7 how we should approach the family law area in

8 general?

9 MR. BAILEY: Yeah.

10 MS. DAVIS: This is not adversarial.

11 Some of, you know, some of you may not know.

12 The legislature just passed the Collaborative

13 Law Act this last legislative session. And

14 it's for the family law area.

15 It does not become effective until

16 January 1st, 2014. The Supreme Court

17 recently appointed a committee, or is in the

18 process of appointing a committee on rules

19 relating to that.

20 But that will be another alternative. We

21 already have mediation that can happen in the

22 family law area. But the collaborative law

23 was just recently passed to allow that. And

Meeting 112


1 it was exclusively for the family law areas

2 and -- family law and also probate with

3 guardianships and things like that, which

4 hopefully will give an alternative.

5 Now, it does require both parties. It's

6 voluntary. So both parties have to agree to

7 do it. But it is a collaborative process.

8 Then can opt in the collaborative process

9 or opt out at any point they want to. But it

10 does provide a non-adversarial opportunity if

11 the parents choose to go in that direction.

12 MR. BAILEY: Good point. Thank you very

13 much. Thank you. Yes, sir.

14 MR. LLOYD: Good morning. My name is

15 Warren Lloyd, and I'm a resident of Jefferson

16 County. I'm going to try to be very mindful

17 of my words as well as my emotions. High

18 conflict divorce. Ten-year-old boy. I

19 haven't seen him in five years.

20 So moving forward, there are many, many

21 comments that -- I've made some good notes.

22 Some of the notes.

23 It started off with a visitation issue.

Meeting 113


1 And then it turned into a paperwork shuffle.

2 And then it turned into the -- got to going

3 like a dog chasing a tail. That lasted about

4 a year and a half.

5 That party didn't provide paperwork when

6 it comes to income or financial statements or

7 income because they weren't asking for

8 attorney's fees because they already had

9 millions in their back pocket. I didn't.

10 So as it turns out, fast forward three

11 years from there, it's been five years, and I

12 still have not seen my son.

13 I have changed careers. Been with two

14 companies in 27 years on straight commission.

15 Income is down. I'm a 1099 employee. I

16 probably drive, I don't know, 34,000 miles a

17 month. And gas is what?

18 Part of my territory is the panhandle

19 territory, the panhandle of Florida. Gas in

20 Pensacola, Fort Walton, that area is 3.69 a

21 gallon. We see 3.21 up here, but it's 3.69 a

22 gallon there.

23 So when you look at these calculations

Meeting 114


1 for child support, there has to be some

2 allowance for the judges and courts to

3 deviate from those guidelines. And I'm just

4 throwing gas in there.

5 I spend 800 to a thousand to $1100 a

6 month on gas, and that doesn't include

7 overnight expense. So it's just a -- but

8 meanwhile, I have the receipts. I have all

9 the receipts that I have. I got a ton.

10 Probably some of them in my wallet right now

11 if you want to challenge me. I got a copy of

12 two or three receipts in my wallet right now.

13 I would like for there to be some sort

14 of -- in this global family law thesis that I

15 heard about was that there be some -- some

16 consideration given towards allowance when it

17 comes to expenses for a self-employed person.

18 Because prior to being, you know, being a

19 stockbroker for 27 years straight commission

20 with two companies, I was a commissioned

21 employee. I had no idea what outside sales

22 was about.

23 Am I happier with it now? Yes, I am. Am

Meeting 115


1 I making less money now? Unfortunately, yes,

2 I am.

3 But -- and I would like to go back and

4 address the court regarding this. Maybe have

5 some consideration given towards reduction of

6 child support because of the expenses. I

7 mean, I have a daughter in college also. A

8 junior at UAB, nursing student. I mean,

9 that's extra expenses there.

10 But the other side has no need for the

11 income. There's no earned income. There's

12 nothing but dividend interest and tax-free

13 income from a portfolio of securities. I'll

14 never know that. We'll never get to that

15 because that's not required on her part.

16 But on my part I am required to show that

17 information to have a reduction. But I can't

18 afford to go back to the court and apply for

19 that unless I go to the DHR, one of you. And

20 I don't know if I can do that outside of my

21 attorney.

22 MS. BUSH: No. You can have an attorney

23 and still come to us. Our DHR attorneys do

Meeting 116


1 not represent the custodial parent or

2 noncustodial parent. You can still keep your

3 own attorney and come to us.

4 MR. LLOYD: And mediation, I would agree

5 that medication is just -- is just another

6 way for the legal -- for the institution,

7 this institution when it comes to attorneys,

8 child psychologists, the guardian ad litems,

9 just for everybody to put more money in their

10 pocket. I'm convinced of that. I really am.

11 Absolutely.

12 And I think mediation is just another way

13 for continuances to take place. I mean, I've

14 had five years of continuances. So I know.

15 I'm mindful of this. Because one of the

16 interested parties in this case is also in

17 this room. I'm being very mindful of my

18 words.

19 And I think perhaps group training would

20 be a good -- training both for the judges and

21 DHR as well as the new judges here. And the

22 training, if there had been training, perhaps

23 we might not have had the problem we're

Meeting 117


1 experiencing up in Jefferson County right

2 now.

3 And, finally, the last thing was I heard

4 the word "co-parenting" posed to use. I

5 would just love that. That would be a very

6 nice word to use in these divorce decrees to

7 soften the term of the visitation.

8 Co-parenting.

9 I thank you for your time.


11 Appreciate you joining us. Anyone else from

12 the public that would like to be heard?

13 (No response.)

14 MR. BAILEY: Okay. Anything else from

15 our committee?

16 MR. POLEMENI: I have one question about

17 Ms. Drees' comment. I thought that debtor

18 prison was illegal? This woman was put in

19 jail for not having, being able to pay child

20 support? Is that...

21 MS. DREES: She lost her job, so she was,

22 you know, she was getting behind. And so the

23 ex-husband immediately filed a petition to

Meeting 118


1 have her held in contempt.

2 MR. POLEMENI: But she still got put in

3 jail?

4 MS. DREES: Oh, yeah.

5 MR. POLEMENI: I know it was a contempt

6 charge. But basically it's debtor's court.

7 She wouldn't pay the child support. So why

8 was she put in jail?

9 MR. BAILEY: Bob, do you have anything

10 else we need to cover before we adjourn?

11 MR. MADDOX: No, sir. We just need to

12 make sure all the members sign the sign-in

13 sheet that was passed around that came in

14 late.

15 MR. BAILEY: Yeah. Let's be sure we sign

16 the sign-up sheet. And then, Bob, fill out

17 the form for reimbursement for mileage.

18 Alex, anything from the court?

19 MR. JACKSON: No.

20 MR. BAILEY: Certainly are glad to have

21 you with us. Hope you enjoyed it.

22 Anything else from the committee? Judge

23 Bell, I know you want to speak about the

Meeting 119


1 issue that you're driving longer than the

2 committee meetings last.

3 JUDGE BELL: Right. And I'd like my

4 subcommittee, if we can do it, if we can meet

5 right now and talk just a little bit, I'd

6 like to do that. You know, and I want to be

7 careful with my words too. I want the result

8 of our work to be meaningful.


10 JUDGE BELL: I want it to get done. This

11 is a great committee. We've got a lot of

12 expertise from all walks of life. I think we

13 really need to get in, roll our sleeves up,

14 hammer this out, make a decision and let's

15 try to do some good with what we are charged

16 with doing.

17 MR. BAILEY: I certainly agree with you.

18 Judge Ford and I have been at this a long

19 time, since 1980 on this committee. When we

20 started in 1980, we didn't have guidelines.

21 We didn't have income withholding. We didn't

22 have all the things that really assist the

23 court system now.

Meeting 120


1 And it took a lot of work and a lot of

2 discussion and a lot of meetings.

3 JUDGE FORD: Yeah.

4 MR. BAILEY: And I think, Faye, I want

5 you to give me one figure real quick before

6 we go. When we started the child support

7 program in 1975-'76, we anticipated and hoped

8 the collections would be eight million a

9 year.

10 What are they now?

11 MS. NELSON: Last year we collected 327

12 million.

13 MR. BAILEY: And that's due to a lot of

14 work from a lot people. And it's directly to

15 the benefit of the children.

16 MS. NELSON: It goes to the children.

17 It's not about the parents. It goes to the

18 children.

19 MR. BAILEY: Any other comments or words

20 of wisdom before we adjourn? Anything before

21 we...

22 MS. DREES: I have just one question.


Meeting 121


1 MS. DREES: I know that a lot of judges

2 and attorneys see a pro se litigant as sort

3 of a less-than party in the courtroom. The

4 problem is a lot of these folks are having to

5 go pro se because they can either pay their

6 child support, or they can pay to hire an

7 attorney.

8 So I think in this particular arena, it

9 may be inclusive in the training to say that

10 a pro se litigant should not necessarily be

11 viewed with contempt. It may just be a

12 function of their budget. I think that's

13 just -- I know even the clerks don't like pro

14 se because it gets discombobulated.

15 But I think in this particular field I

16 think you have to consider the fact that you

17 can't always pay both. And attorneys are not

18 cheap.

19 JUDGE BELL: You know, I -- and, again,

20 I'm trying to be sensitive with my words, but

21 judges are getting painted with a broad brush

22 that we do not deserve.

23 I treat everybody that comes in my

Meeting 122


1 courtroom with civility and respect, and I

2 expect that in return.

3 Now, are there those who don't?

4 Probably. But listen. I think training

5 would help a whole lot of that.

6 But you've never been in my court. If

7 you have, I would hope you wouldn't say what

8 you just said. Everybody comes in equally,

9 and everybody gets treated the same. And

10 that's the way it ought to be as long as I'm

11 I'll going to be on the bench.

12 MR. BAILEY: Faye.

13 MS. NELSON: Gordon, I've heard

14 repeatedly in this meeting as well as the

15 last -- training, training, training.


17 MS. NELSON: Training is what we need.

18 And, you know, I will sit here and say I am

19 committed from DHR's side to see what we can

20 do within our funding.

21 You know, funding limits probably every

22 department that's sitting here as to what we

23 can do. We know the need is there, you know.

Meeting 123


1 And I can say from our perspective that

2 we will work with AOC to see what we can do

3 in the way of providing training to whatever

4 population that we can. You know, to say

5 that we can meet all the needs that have been

6 identified here today through a one-day or

7 two-day training or whatever, it won't be

8 resolved.

9 MR. BAILEY: That's right.

10 MS. NELSON: It can be a starting point.

11 And we will make that initiative. And I will

12 make that commitment --


14 MS. NELSON: -- to see what we can do,

15 you know, to provide some level of training.

16 MR. BAILEY: If Faye says it, she means

17 it. I can tell you that. If she says it,

18 she means it.

19 JUDGE FORD: One thing I wanted to

20 mention, I think better training through DHR

21 or joint training with DHR where we both sit

22 down with the county representatives and talk

23 about the problems and the issues that are

Meeting 124


1 coming up in our respective locations.

2 And perhaps, you may want to look at

3 regional training as opposed to one large

4 statewide training to look at the cost on

5 those type things. But we have a lot of new

6 judges on the bench, a lot of new judges.

7 And they're doing it like I did.

8 Somebody gave them a docket and said, hey,

9 you try these cases. And so you're getting

10 the kind of results that you're getting

11 because they just don't know. They just

12 don't know.

13 MR. POLEMENI: Along those lines, you

14 have the pro se litigant and just the people

15 in general that come with a grade school

16 level constitutional knowledge that -- and

17 over the years working with everyone on this

18 committee it's been a pleasure to learn from

19 each of you.

20 I know that you're doing within the scope

21 of your charters or, you know, your job

22 descriptions you're doing the best you can

23 do. And maybe -- maybe there's something

Meeting 125


1 that we can initiate to where the courts can

2 kind of have some training session for the

3 people out there as well, you know, to where

4 we can be more respectful all the way around.

5 And then on the other issue, Mr. Maddox

6 put together for the access and visitation

7 committee, a telecom to do our committee work

8 on that. And that was very -- didn't have to

9 leave the house.

10 MR. BAILEY: That's great.

11 MR. POLEMENI: So maybe we can think

12 about something along those lines and

13 having -- and make it open to the public so

14 that the public could also attend so they

15 don't have to travel as much either.

16 MS. MOORE: Mary Moore, Circuit Clerk.

17 The Alabama Bar Association has been very

18 helpful creating forms for pro se litigants.

19 And it may be something that we could

20 work with them on a website that will educate

21 or have instructions and this is what this

22 will do and this court will do.

23 Because there are so many times when the

Meeting 126


1 pro se litigants come into the clerk's office

2 that they are expecting us to give legal

3 advice. It's not that we are -- we're

4 impatient with them, but we cannot give legal

5 advice; although, most of our -- most of the

6 people that walk in are pro se and not

7 represented by an attorney.

8 So this is a serious issue, and training

9 I think would work with that. Or maybe talk

10 to them.

11 MR. BAILEY: That is a great idea.

12 JUDGE PALMER: They have one website

13 already called the AlabamaLegalHelp.org, I

14 believe. And it has a lot of the forms and

15 explains this is what this form does, this is

16 what this form does. They have taken great

17 leaps with that.

18 MS. MOORE: And when people come in, we

19 actually hand them to them.

20 JUDGE PALMER: Very good.

21 MR. BAILEY: Bob, they did a lot of that

22 work with the forms committee with AOC. Is

23 that committee still in existence?

Meeting 127


1 MR. MADDOX: Not right now.

2 MR. BAILEY: There is a committee in AOC

3 that has worked in forms.

4 MR. MADDOX: We are greatly reduced in

5 staff, and we've had to cut back a lot of

6 activities.

7 MR. BAILEY: Absolutely. Any other

8 comments for the good of the order? I'll say

9 this. It's been a lot of challenges since

10 1976, and I'm a living example of that.

11 When I first started in '76 in the child

12 support program, I was seven foot tall and

13 blond-headed. Look what happened to me.

14 Anyway, any other comments? Certainly

15 glad to have the public with us.

16 Can I have a motion to adjourn?

17 MS. DAVIS: Move.

18 MR. BAILEY: So moved. Second?

19 MR. POLEMENI: Second.

20 MR. BAILEY: Motion passed. Thank y'all

21 very much.

22 (The hearing concluded at 11:50 p.m.)

23

Meeting 128


1 C E R T I F I C A T E

2

3 STATE OF ALABAMA

4 COUNTY OF ELMORE

5

6 I, Rena' Messick Lanier, Certified Court

7 Reporter and Commissioner for the State of

8 Alabama at Large, do hereby certify that the

9 above and foregoing transcript of the proceedings

10 in this matter was reported by me.

11 I further certify that the foregoing

12 computer-printed pages contain a true and correct

13 copy of the proceedings help in this matter.

14 I further certify that I am neither of kin

15 nor of counsel to the parties to said cause, nor

16 in any manner interested in the results thereof.

17 I further certify that I am duly licensed

18 by the Alabama Board of Court Reporting as a

19 Certified Court Reporter.

20 Rena' Messick Lanier

21 Rena' Messick Lanier,

22 Certified Court Reporter

23 (CSR No. 0031)Exp. 9/30/2013

Meeting 129


WORD INDEX

< $ >$10,000 13:10$1000 71:16, 17,18$1100 114:5$15,000 15:14$20,000 12:20$2500 13:2$35,000 13:17$40,000 88:9$495. 46:11$500 13:9$60,000 25:8$7000 13:3$95 46:10

< . >. 49:13 56:11

< 0 >0031 128:2304 26:305 25:1606 25:1608. 19:4

< 1 >1 16:21, 22 57:91. 16:18 51:1410 75:12 77:3 80:13, 19 85:81040 95:18, 211099 78:2, 6 113:151099s 102:311:50 127:221100 15:2212 2:22 4:2213 19:3135 5:2015 19:3 74:9 108:116 26:151975-'76 120:71976 127:101980 9:16 119:19, 20

19th 80:201st 36:15 111:16

< 2 >20 70:20 89:120,000 13:16 70:7 71:15 88:320,000. 88:62002 7:15 82:22005 16:12006 15:16 21:232007 27:22009 26:9, 13 82:32010 26:132010, 26:82011 78:1 88:32012 26:82013 1:9, 17 19:18 57:9 79:22 80:3 128:232013. 16:21, 222014 36:15 87:23 111:1620th 80:2121 89:821,000 88:721st 12:1923 3:11240,000 92:425th. 85:1026 76:927 113:14 114:1929 16:32nd 1:9, 17

< 3 >3.21 113:213.69 113:20, 2130 7:14 25:7 70:20 128:23300 1:1830-3-151 51:432 22:13 31:23 32:6, 8, 11 40:2 50:12 56:13 57:2 67:17, 22 79:5, 6, 13 86:16 95:15

32. 48:23 56:21 77:11327 120:1134 25:10, 1334,000 113:1635 5:19 9:10 82:836104 1:19

< 4 >40,000 70:18 71:11 88:14 109:22 110:1640,000. 70:742 101:1045 50:848 71:6

< 5 >50 87:2 95:458 91:9

< 6 >60 13:6 67:966 24:2067 46:16 47:10 89:2, 4

< 7 >70 65:376 127:117th 7:19 10:10 11:7 39:17 48:14

< 8 >8 2:22 5:48. 5:1, 3800 114:5856670 80:487 8:108th 79:22

< 9 >9 8:10 128:2390 67:993 7:2193. 8:199.9 45:23

< A >

a 5:5 6:19 7:8 10:12 21:14 22:8 24:10 29:15 30:5 32:3 40:17 47:4 48:2 49:6, 10 52:9 53:1 56:1, 14 57:21 58:18 59:19 60:11 61:18 62:17, 18 63:3, 19 65:10 66:19 67:20 70:11 71:5 73:2 76:17 82:5 87:2,15, 23 89:19 90:11 91:21 97:4 103:19 104:9 105:23 108:11 109:20,22 113:16, 20, 21 114:5, 18 115:7 120:8 121:11 128:18able 25:8 43:18 44:16 65:23 106:13 117:19abolishing 108:7about 14:17 88:18 106:17 113:3 117:16about. 27:19 50:15 92:16 114:22above 128:9Absolutely 24:16 99:13 127:7Absolutely. 41:16 50:22 60:6 61:14 76:15 99:19 116:11 119:9 122:16accept 11:6 45:3accepting 93:12accepts. 34:21access 125:6account 84:21 85:1accurate 22:16

Meeting 130


ACD 84:17 85:13ACD. 85:4Act 36:14 82:21 111:13action 62:19action. 101:5actions 63:10activities. 127:6acts. 74:17actual 66:1ad 116:8add 60:18 74:23added 32:4addition 3:9 109:4additional 12:23address 20:13 23:7 37:13 38:12, 16 43:5 44:3 47:2 82:18 89:13 91:3 101:14 102:17 108:20 115:4addressed 36:6 59:5 90:18 99:7 108:21addressing 60:13 86:17adequate 58:9adjourn 118:10 120:20 127:16adjustments 13:8administrative 25:20admitted 98:7adopt 43:18Adopted 17:14adult 76:8advantage 64:16 70:19adversarial 108:10, 19 109:3,7, 23adversarial. 111:10adversely 71:2advice 126:3, 5ADVISORY 1:2,15 59:5

advocating 97:15affair 106:11affairs 87:10affect 22:4affidavit 89:19,20 97:5affirmed 78:12afford 99:1 115:18Affordable 36:14after 76:5again, 121:19again. 83:16age 110:5agency 53:6agenda 25:1 31:14ages 106:10aggressive 106:21ago 14:21, 22 27:15 34:12 63:19 70:3 93:20ago, 12:2agree 23:6 45:18, 22 61:18 72:7 76:3 112:6 116:4 119:17agree. 23:4 41:21agreed 75:23agreement 44:23 45:2 51:2, 7 52:14 86:10agreements 19:13ahead 80:8 81:7 87:6ahead. 53:22 80:5Air 82:1, 3Al.Civ.App 80:4ALABAMA 1:4,16, 18, 21 2:8, 10,11, 12, 13, 16, 18 3:8 6:5, 7, 13, 16 7:9, 17 13:18 15:10 22:4 28:20 29:14 46:17 48:15 56:2 80:16 82:6,

11 87:9, 13, 23 88:4 92:21 93:3 97:15 108:2 110:21 125:17 128:3, 8, 18Alabama. 6:2 7:4 85:17 88:16AlabamaLegalHelp.org 126:13Alabama's 110:16Alex 2:21 3:4 5:11 12:9 36:3 118:18all 11:23 28:14 30:12 35:5 49:19 75:8 91:2 114:8all, 108:12all. 93:6alleged 107:1alleviate 91:11 102:18alleviated 103:7allow 111:23allowable 82:9allowance 114:2,16allowed 44:16 107:10allows 81:3almost 9:2already 108:20Also 2:20 18:12 33:14 62:11 87:14also. 17:23alternative 109:12 111:20alternative. 112:4altogether 108:8am 5:21 114:23 122:18am. 83:14 115:2 116:10amendment 26:23 36:2, 21 37:9, 13, 13 38:1,16 39:5 91:8amendments 57:8

amount 13:4, 5,22 22:5 55:7 69:4 70:3, 12, 13 101:23an 6:6 15:4 62:23 86:9 87:18 100:4 101:13 109:2 121:6analyses 15:21analysis 12:23 13:5, 7, 8, 13 15:18And 3:18 4:8 6:11 7:12 8:13,14 9:10, 18 12:3 22:3 30:2, 4, 13 38:11 50:13, 19 55:17, 20 56:23 63:11 64:22 80:13 86:3, 16 89:4 90:19 92:18 96:13 97:13 100:6 101:20 106:11 107:11, 19 111:13, 23 115:3,19 116:20 122:9 124:16 125:12 126:14 127:12And, 15:1 100:5 109:23Angela 2:9, 18 6:1, 23 26:22 105:18 106:7Anniston 5:19 67:8another 17:14 95:9 101:9 116:5answer 16:10 46:23anticipated 120:7any 4:3 18:4 23:12 53:8 58:10anybody 14:14,17 30:15 35:3 58:13 74:23 84:2anything 26:20 118:9

Meeting 131


anything. 36:8 89:20 97:6anyway 83:9, 13 127:14anyway. 76:20AOC 2:19 5:15 15:12, 13 24:4 25:12, 15 30:14 54:1, 18, 21 105:19 123:2 126:22 127:2appeal 83:10 98:14appealed 78:10Appeals 8:14 9:5appear 18:1appellate 51:15 52:1 78:11, 11 79:3 99:20apples 52:20applicable 29:13applied 48:11apply 115:18applying 74:19appointed 9:14,15 55:20 111:17appointing 111:18appreciate 58:22 94:5, 6, 13 98:2 117:11approach 17:14 111:7approval 25:6approve 8:2 11:6approved 11:19 36:22April 16:22are 21:3 27:4 29:17 43:22 71:17 99:23 107:14 123:23are, 54:4are. 36:18 55:23area 66:11 75:15 89:3 111:7, 22 113:20area. 111:14areas 39:21

86:16, 17 112:1arena 121:8aren't. 77:9Arkansas 18:14 27:22 29:13, 18around. 75:7 125:4arranged 13:2arrangement 44:15 56:15 57:5as 16:2 24:14 42:19 47:22 51:13 59:13 66:7 79:8 83:18 97:10 100:11ascertain 65:23ask 83:15asked 5:5 7:19 34:10 39:17 78:7 83:10, 11 90:19 92:19asking 79:13, 15 113:7asks 95:23aspect 66:4aspects 66:5assemble 54:17assembled 35:14assessment 46:13assigned 6:17 65:8assist 65:9 119:22assistance. 4:4assistant 61:2 63:2Associate 6:7Association 2:17 7:10 15:11 125:17Association. 87:9assume 23:19 31:11assuming 34:15assumption 44:18assurance 104:7at 13:10, 12 69:18 81:21

104:10 110:23 124:2at. 98:20attached 51:13attend 12:8 125:14attention 48:14 60:14, 15Attorney 2:13, 19 8:11 53:15 63:3 83:18 115:22 116:3attorney. 5:15 115:21 121:7 126:7attorneys 52:7 53:9 55:14, 15 61:3 79:10 84:3 88:20 115:23 121:2, 17attorney's 113:8attorneys, 116:7attorneys. 52:23 53:20 54:9Aubrey 2:5 9:7,9, 16Aubrey, 9:7Aubrey. 20:15Auburn 28:20audience. 75:4August 1:9, 17 16:18 19:17Aunt 49:14Autauga 75:19authority 23:8 30:12 43:12available 55:12 66:22 94:10Avenue 1:18award 63:6, 11,12aware 9:4 24:12 26:16 53:14

back 9:15, 23 15:23 16:1 28:2 30:16 38:22 44:13 50:5 51:1 54:10, 13 62:23

69:11, 13 74:6 78:18 79:4 80:14 82:3, 20 83:9, 12 90:19 92:23 93:1, 9 94:16 99:12 107:12 113:9 115:3, 18 127:5background 58:19 90:8backside 104:13bad 69:15 72:19 93:22bad. 74:20Bailey 2:4 3:1,15, 22 4:6, 12, 12 5:2, 4, 10, 18 6:22 7:7, 18 8:8,20, 22 9:4, 12, 18,23 10:6, 8, 20 11:4, 10, 13, 16,18 12:9, 17 13:20 14:2, 7, 10,20 15:3, 15 16:9,13 17:12, 19 18:1, 12, 17, 20 20:6, 15 21:9, 14 22:2, 10, 18, 21 23:5, 12, 15, 23 24:16, 22 25:15,22 27:9, 20 28:11, 13, 19, 22 29:6, 17 30:1, 10,19 31:2, 6, 9, 11,14 32:18, 23 34:6, 9, 21 35:3,10, 13, 17 36:3 37:6, 19 38:4, 7,21 39:7, 14, 22 41:13, 16, 20, 22 43:1, 14, 20 44:6 45:5 47:3 48:13,19 49:8 50:22 52:21 53:7, 12,19, 21 54:10, 21 55:8, 13, 16 56:4,7 57:3, 12 58:5,16 59:18, 23 60:6, 17 61:14,18 62:22 63:17

Meeting 132


64:9, 12 65:4, 18 66:21 67:6, 13,16 68:8 69:13,16, 18 70:15, 23 73:9, 13, 23 74:4,21 75:3, 8, 15 76:13, 15 77:23 79:18, 22 80:2, 7 86:12, 19 87:1 94:9, 18 99:15,19 101:1, 6, 17 102:5, 14 103:9 104:1, 8, 12, 22 105:7, 13 111:9 112:12 117:10,14 118:9, 15, 20 119:9, 17 120:4,13, 19, 23 122:12,16 123:9, 13, 16 125:10 126:11,21 127:2, 7, 18, 20balance 71:2balancing 59:11Baldwin 6:9ball 31:17Baptist 34:23Bar 125:17based 17:23 22:5 27:6, 17 44:17 70:2 78:19 98:5basic 99:5Basically 15:1,19, 21 36:10 44:12 47:7 107:9 118:6be 26:10 35:4 38:2, 17, 18 41:4,17 48:8 58:2 65:8 70:18 73:3 79:13 87:19 104:16 119:6 121:10 123:7beard. 69:17bears 76:10because 63:4becoming 66:8bed 91:20

been 24:3 39:5 60:13 71:11 123:5before 120:5, 20beginning 28:6behalf 97:16believe 8:5 36:6 37:7 44:22 75:9 84:19 105:4 126:14Bell 2:15 7:12,12 11:12, 13 14:18 16:10, 12 21:16, 21 22:3,11, 20 31:16, 18 32:19 33:17 34:4, 9, 15, 18, 22 35:2, 12, 13, 16 39:3, 17, 19, 23 40:23 41:4, 21 43:19 49:23 50:23 52:18 55:3, 19 56:5, 12 57:4, 23 58:18,22 59:22 60:19 61:15 62:17, 23 65:13 69:17 72:15, 22 73:10,14, 21 74:3 76:3,13, 16 84:2 86:9 92:9, 12 93:19 95:13 97:21 98:1, 12, 22 99:3 102:11 118:23 119:3, 10 121:19Bell. 75:21bench 124:6bench. 7:15 122:11benefit 81:1 120:15best 94:3 100:18 124:22better 79:14 88:15 109:5, 8,10 123:20better. 24:11between 42:9beyond 64:19

110:5bid 28:10 29:9big 35:18bigger 10:14biggest 103:2, 4bill 91:1bill. 90:20 92:11billing 12:19 13:14Billy 2:15 7:12 16:9 43:15 52:5 55:16 72:18Billy. 69:14Birmingham 2:18 6:2 14:5births. 88:4bit 24:11 30:6 31:15 39:16 48:15, 20 96:8,17 119:5bit. 44:11blond-headed 127:13Board 1:15 128:18boat 71:21Bob 2:19 4:7 5:14 8:5 10:20 12:5 14:20 18:12 24:2 25:15 28:19 30:2 47:11 54:21 58:20, 20 75:5 118:9, 16 126:21Bob, 29:7Bob. 28:11borne 15:10borrow 18:14boss 3:7boss. 3:14both 47:15 72:15 78:15both. 74:9bothers 85:2box 70:21box. 89:1boy 112:18Boyd 2:22 8:11,11, 22 10:2 94:20

Brasfield. 106:7,14breaks 9:6breathe 40:13 41:7 56:3brief 36:5 105:20briefcase 87:3bring 5:5 52:21 67:18 68:6, 18 69:2, 6 70:5 73:7 77:21 95:16 96:22 97:2 101:19, 22 102:3, 7 107:16bringing 26:11 54:22 95:12 101:15broad 121:21broken 62:4brought 48:13 50:20 56:12 60:14 84:9 95:10 96:19brush 121:21budget 13:21 121:12Building 1:18builds 40:2built 99:5bunch 59:8burden 69:5, 9 76:11, 12 77:1 98:16Bush 2:7 7:5, 5 37:11, 20 38:5,14 39:4 43:10 67:15, 17 68:9,14 69:10 81:6, 8,12, 23 82:14 83:1, 6 103:13 104:2 115:22business 11:19 16:4busy 109:16But 37:21 38:16 62:8 83:4 93:4 100:16 114:7 121:20But, 94:2

Meeting 133


buy 36:11, 16 37:2buys 71:20by 45:10 128:18bylines 44:23

< C >calculate 56:14,19 57:2calculated. 68:7calculation 32:9,13calculations 40:2 113:23calendar 55:11call 5:10 45:16call. 5:7called 46:6 49:21 126:13calling 86:23calls 73:2 80:21came 37:11 65:19 107:7Campbell 2:9 6:23, 23 26:19,22 27:10 73:19 84:11, 15 85:3,12, 22 100:23can 61:9 67:4 94:3 122:19 124:22 125:1can. 35:9candidate 90:12can't 115:17car 71:16 108:22careers 113:13careful 119:7carries 76:10carry 77:5cart 30:8Carter 2:22 4:23,23 5:3, 3, 4case 6:21 13:8,14 31:22 32:15 34:5 41:3 59:2,3 60:5 65:7 68:1 71:8 72:18 73:6, 11 74:14 76:13 78:19 79:2, 2, 20 81:23

83:6 84:17 96:20, 21 98:2 103:18, 20, 23 106:6, 8, 19, 22 108:12, 22 109:2 116:16case. 37:5 60:10 73:20cases 20:21 40:8 59:2 61:19,19 62:2 64:22 65:3 67:9 88:4 103:6 108:1, 13 109:17 124:9cases. 108:17cause 128:15causes 85:6causing 39:19center 84:16 86:3, 7center. 84:13 86:1central 81:14 84:15 86:7cents 26:15ceremony 69:16certain 102:21certainly 3:22 15:2 24:14 27:21 29:21 41:14 43:14 58:8 66:18 118:20 119:17 127:14Certified 1:20 128:6, 19, 22certify 128:8, 11,14, 17cetera 96:5, 5, 5chair 34:10, 16chair. 33:18Chairman 2:4 30:12challenge 65:11 107:22 108:6, 18 110:9 114:11challenges 127:9chance 8:3

change 32:8 33:8 76:2 87:12 92:14changed 21:19,22 57:11 76:5 87:22 113:13changed. 10:23 79:4changes 10:9 33:14Channel 2:21, 22 4:21 5:1, 3, 4charge 48:21 49:1 118:6charged 119:15charters 124:21chasing 113:3cheap. 121:18cheat 66:18cheating 111:2check 8:17 18:13 25:19 80:22 82:6, 11 84:22 101:20check. 23:17Chief 59:6 92:2CHILD 1:3, 15 2:8 5:20 6:14 7:3 16:16, 20 17:1 19:20, 21 21:11 22:6 24:8,9, 19 27:16 31:19 32:1, 3 37:14 38:16 39:5 40:5, 11 44:7 45:18, 21 46:5 47:1 48:3,22 49:6 52:22 53:10 54:6, 16,23 55:1, 18 56:10, 14 59:1 61:3 62:8, 11, 13,19, 20 63:11, 17 64:7 66:3, 11 68:2, 6 70:1 73:6, 15 74:1 76:19 77:9 78:3 80:12, 15, 16, 18,22, 22 81:5, 9, 18 82:6, 9, 12 85:9

87:13, 16 88:8,11 90:22 91:13,14 96:23 97:11 100:18, 21, 22 106:15, 20 107:3,6, 11 114:1 115:6 116:8 117:19 118:7 120:6 121:6 127:11child. 38:20children 20:20 21:2 32:3 40:10 46:5 48:23 49:16 50:21 51:10 56:16 71:2 76:23 106:9, 14 109:1 110:17children, 107:10children. 120:15,16, 18child's 20:1choose 112:11chooses 68:5chose 41:11churches 109:8Circuit 2:12, 14,15 7:13 14:4 29:4 50:17, 18 72:23, 23 99:17 125:16circuits 54:15cite 79:19cites 36:5citizen 7:9 10:13citizens 91:3citizens. 110:21Civil 8:14 9:5 107:23civility 122:1clarify 30:9Clark 2:22 75:14,18, 18 76:5, 22 77:14 78:1 79:11, 21, 23 80:6, 9 81:11, 23 82:16 83:7, 10,14, 17 84:8, 14,

Meeting 134


23 85:5, 10, 18 86:13clear 94:23clear. 104:11clearer 96:9, 17clearly 49:20 70:17clearly. 72:6Clerk 2:12 3:7 29:4 100:4Clerk. 125:16clerks 121:13Clerk's 12:10 126:1client 105:19client. 97:16clients 67:1cloudy 42:19Co 2:14Co-Chairman 2:5code 56:2coffee 111:2Collaborative 111:12, 22 112:7,8collect 26:6 100:22collected 120:11collections 120:8college 76:23 77:3 115:7colleges 16:3come 25:11 29:22 33:5, 10 36:20 48:6 54:3 62:23 67:23 72:10, 11 73:22 82:7 86:4 87:22 97:20 103:15 105:23 115:23 116:3 124:15 126:1, 18comes 51:22 53:15 83:22 113:6 114:17 116:7 121:23 122:8coming 15:9 60:12 65:2 74:13 86:20

87:2 88:5, 9 89:13 124:1comment 15:8 104:10 111:5, 6 117:17comment. 105:16comments 8:8 11:2 35:21 39:12 56:9 58:6,10 60:1 74:22 75:12 99:12 112:21 120:19 127:8, 14comments, 39:9commission 114:19commission. 113:14commissioned 114:20Commissioner 128:7commit 23:8commitment 123:12committed 107:8 122:19COMMITTEE 1:2 3:19 4:1, 13 5:14 6:11, 19, 20 7:21, 23 9:13, 15,19 13:21 16:17 19:6 21:15 22:1 23:13 25:4 26:3 30:16 32:7 35:14 41:11 58:1, 11, 21 59:6 79:19 80:2 87:19 90:15 94:5, 13 111:17,18 117:15 118:22 119:2, 11,19 124:18 125:7,7 126:22, 23 127:2committee, 91:17committee. 17:1 56:8Committee: 2:3

committees 6:17 90:11 107:14communicating 65:1communication 53:17companies 113:14 114:20comparison. 26:18comparisons 12:22compel 36:10compelled 37:2compelled. 36:23compelling 36:16competing 20:16complement 42:14completed 27:22completely 20:11 29:16complex 108:21 109:6complying 74:11computer-printed 128:12concentrate 21:8concept 19:2concern 57:18 85:6concerned 86:17concerning 6:13concerns 56:9 58:13concerted 48:9concise 46:21concluded 127:22condition 34:19conducted 107:15conferences 53:10confidentiality 60:8conflict 37:8 112:18confusion 57:21consensus 22:22consequences 13:1

consider 105:3,10 121:16consideration 71:15 76:1 114:16 115:5consideration. 76:14considered 102:2considered. 76:8consistency 50:17 56:3, 22 57:1 60:21consistent 46:21consistently 47:8constantly 106:22constitution 38:2constitution. 37:23constitutional 37:9 38:11, 19 124:16contact 3:20, 21 4:3 11:23contacted 12:11,12contain 128:12contempt 66:13 68:15, 21 70:17 74:11, 14, 16, 20 118:5 121:11contempt. 118:1content 67:21contest 39:2contested. 76:4continuances 116:13, 14continue 89:10continued 22:17continues 68:1contract 15:11, 13contribute 38:9convened 33:1convinced 116:10coordinate 53:23co-parent. 49:7co-parenting 117:4Co-parenting. 117:8copies 17:3, 9

Meeting 135


copy 8:5 18:10 59:23 105:11 114:11 128:13correct 21:12 39:8 51:3 70:13 84:22 101:7 104:10 128:12Correct. 21:13 84:5correction 8:9,16 10:9, 22corrections 10:1,9 11:5corrections, 11:1corresponds 81:16cost 13:11 15:8 24:21 25:13, 14 79:1 124:4cost. 12:4costs 18:5 24:7 38:10could 33:17 43:16 75:15 105:9 125:19could. 43:14Counsel 2:7 45:11, 17 46:3 128:15counsel. 7:6countable 78:3counties 46:17 47:4, 6, 10 64:15 89:2, 4counties. 47:9 89:16country 89:8 110:22counts 79:8County 2:5, 9, 12,13, 15 7:13 9:9 46:19 59:2, 4 60:9 61:1 62:9 65:1 73:17 75:19, 20 89:11 103:15 112:16 117:1 123:22 128:4County, 6:4

County. 6:9 7:1 8:12 29:5 94:20couple 75:20 93:20 94:21course 5:11, 14 47:18Court 1:20 2:10 3:8 4:16 6:8, 12,17 8:14 9:4 12:9 14:5, 12 23:9, 16 27:16 37:21 38:12, 14 45:2, 3 47:5, 13 52:10 57:10 63:20 67:4, 23 70:8, 16 71:14 72:1 76:17 78:11, 11, 18 79:3 80:14 87:1 96:9, 12, 18, 18,22 100:1 103:3,4 105:2, 6, 9 106:1, 12 108:2,4, 8, 10, 18, 19 109:7 110:1, 3, 4,16 111:16 115:4,18 118:18 119:23 122:6 125:22 128:6, 18,19, 22court. 52:8 108:5 109:18 118:6courtroom 121:3 122:1courtrooms 45:6 88:6courts 19:11 20:13 21:7 24:14 30:14 36:11 44:17 47:17 51:15 52:1 65:14 104:6 114:2 125:1court's 60:14courts, 88:19cover 25:12 29:2 30:4 55:7

76:20 118:10coverage 37:3, 3covered 25:15covering 32:2create 57:21 63:19creating 88:19 125:18creative 69:1criminal 50:10criteria 93:5crop 48:6CS41 95:14, 23 101:10 104:13CS42 95:14, 23CSR 128:23current 102:9currently 28:3 70:2custodial 40:3 49:9, 11 59:19 63:5 68:16 69:22 72:21 96:21 97:9 100:12 103:18 116:1custody 46:6, 7 50:12 51:3, 9, 10,12 56:15, 19 57:4 63:12 88:4 106:13custody, 45:11custody. 51:5 56:17 63:7cut 127:5cycle 28:7

< D >D.C 92:18 93:10 94:16D.C. 78:20dad. 87:16data 13:9, 13, 15 15:18 18:9 26:11, 17data. 26:6 33:19date 8:17 16:7 52:22daughter 115:7

Davis 2:11 7:16,16 10:16 18:4,11 23:6, 14, 18 24:12 25:18 29:23 30:7, 11 31:13 33:3, 20 34:7, 19, 23 58:14 65:19 66:22 67:12 68:13, 23 69:12,15, 20 70:16 71:1, 19 72:4, 18 76:19 83:8, 12,15 92:10 106:16 111:5, 10 127:17day 28:14 84:6 100:9 106:20 108:7 111:3day. 61:20 67:9daycare 45:21days 3:14 16:1 45:12, 13 54:10,13 77:4 78:13 80:13, 19days. 85:8dead 110:20deadline 16:7deal 10:14 58:14,17 63:14 64:6 89:2, 2, 3, 4 100:11dealing 3:18 31:19 33:22 90:6 97:8 109:5,8, 10deals 58:1dealt 47:8 94:4debtor 117:17debtor's 118:6decide 33:23 50:20 70:10decide. 96:18decided 37:21decided. 39:6decision 47:17 98:5 119:14decisions 38:15 41:23 42:1, 6 50:19 92:1

Meeting 136


100:6, 7decisions. 23:21decrees 117:6deductible 40:6deduction 39:15 43:11 95:5, 7deductions 94:22 95:1deductions. 101:22deer-in-the-headlight 50:13default 73:12defense 50:10, 11deficient 45:4defined 78:14 79:14defines 52:4definition 42:16definition, 95:17Delaware 47:3delay 41:22 73:20 74:1 85:1,5, 12delays 73:19delays. 73:22Department 15:20 53:5 60:9 122:22departments 16:4departments. 16:5dependents 39:15depending 13:3,17 86:22deposed 106:23deposited 84:21description 98:18descriptions 124:22deserve 88:14deserve. 121:22destroyed 89:5determine 89:17determines 94:23develop 49:1developed 55:1development 20:1

deviate 40:15, 20 43:13 45:18 56:21 114:3deviating 31:23deviation 43:8Dexter 1:18DHR 2:7, 9 7:1,5 24:6, 18 25:12 30:14 52:12, 22 53:3 55:10, 14 62:2 65:6 66:23 80:10 83:6 84:11, 12, 17 85:3 86:2, 5 88:21 94:1, 2, 3 99:17 100:16 103:13, 20 115:19, 23 116:21 123:20, 21DHR's 52:22 60:14 122:19dictate 99:10dictated 82:16did 16:19did. 22:20 28:22 33:11 78:6 124:7didn't 13:22 59:2 119:21didn't. 113:9difference 22:8, 9 25:13different 6:16 9:18, 19 54:15 66:12 90:10 100:10 104:14different. 46:20difficult 24:13 62:7, 15 66:8direct 53:9directed 73:5direction 18:21 29:7 30:2, 4, 6 96:16direction. 30:18 112:11directly 83:3 84:21, 23 120:14Director 2:8 7:3 25:20 87:10

disadvantage 87:15disagree 44:21 100:23disbursement 81:14 84:18discombobulated. 121:14discovery 67:11 106:21discovery. 66:5, 9discretion 34:2, 7 41:2 76:2 81:20discriminate 90:21 91:11discuss 13:21 30:12 48:10discussed 11:22 48:15discussed. 103:8discussing 91:21discussion 14:10,15 19:5 28:23 29:7, 10 31:3 35:19 39:10, 16 42:3 43:2 66:6 120:2discussions 55:10dismissal 73:11dispute 109:12disrespect 51:18District 2:6 9:10 52:10 61:2 63:3 108:4divided 79:8dividend 115:12Division 14:5 15:19 109:12division. 84:18divorce 75:19, 23 78:22 79:8 112:18 117:6divorced 90:22divorces 88:7do 15:13 22:21 30:19 50:23 62:5 75:5 115:23 123:2do, 123:14

do. 28:4 29:14 71:3 97:23 104:4 125:22docket 54:16 64:22 65:3 67:8 124:8dockets 103:5documentation 68:2 69:7 70:9,10 72:12 95:12 96:14, 22 105:1documentation. 101:16documents 74:13 98:6documents. 73:8does. 34:22 48:18doesn't 72:20 76:1 84:11 102:22dog 113:3doing 3:9 15:9 17:6, 17, 18 27:22 33:1 36:12 54:18 55:10 64:20 82:14 94:3 104:3 110:6, 7 124:7, 20, 22doing. 33:7 119:16dollars. 24:21 25:6domestic 6:8 14:5 109:18done 33:21 104:2done. 44:18 97:19don't 33:10 46:17 51:2 60:20 74:15 95:16 105:8don't. 67:22 68:13down. 83:5downturn 27:7DR 55:6 90:9

Meeting 137


drafted 43:7draw 24:20Drees 2:18 6:1,2 105:17, 18 117:17, 21 118:4 120:22 121:1drive 18:10 57:16 77:19 113:16drive. 17:4driving 119:1drugs 110:20due 99:22 120:13duly 128:17

< E >E 128:1earlier 64:2 87:18early 54:13earned 115:11earnings 96:3easy 47:16echo 87:17 99:12economic 23:1 26:4, 11 27:1 42:1economics 15:18 16:5 21:18 22:4,7 24:13economist 27:3economy 27:7educate 125:20education 20:2effect 16:18, 21 21:3 36:15effective 38:3 106:4 111:15efficient 59:13efforts. 21:8e-filing 54:3eight 76:6 120:8either 29:18 69:21 74:12 84:20 90:3 121:5either. 10:4 125:15elected 7:15

Elmore 8:11 94:20 128:4else. 24:15 26:21e-mail 12:12 74:6, 7 89:1e-mail. 12:16emotion. 106:5emotional 20:2 106:3 108:23 109:6emotional. 107:18emotions 65:17 112:17emotions. 108:21emphasis 64:6employee 113:15 114:21employer 81:21 106:22employment 62:10 104:17, 18encourage 70:22end 28:17end. 13:11, 15enforcement 61:4 63:1, 18 64:13enjoyed 118:21enough 61:22 110:11enters 68:16entertain 8:2 11:5entire 109:4, 12 110:9entry 73:11equally, 122:8equity 74:19Especially 46:9Essick 59:9establish 21:4established 20:19 21:1esteemed 23:15estimate. 12:13et 96:4, 5, 5even 26:3 96:21eventually 68:9 110:17

every 81:14 110:22 122:21everybody 3:2 24:12, 15 26:16 59:10, 12 64:2 65:15 109:19 116:9 121:23 122:8, 9everybody. 73:18everybody's 34:11everyone 20:9 49:2everywhere. 27:13 102:23evicted 89:21evidence 98:7evidence. 98:4evidently 59:1exact 12:15exactly 28:4 32:21 72:18 74:4 86:10 105:7Exactly. 68:8example 13:1 66:16 88:3 127:10example, 13:7exceed 82:9excellent 41:20 43:20exclusively 112:1excuse 12:3exemption. 40:4exemptions 75:22Exhibit 51:14ex-husband 117:23exist 65:10exist. 67:14existence 126:23existing 68:21Exp 128:23expand 64:19expect 122:2expecting 126:2expense 78:10,17 114:7expenses 77:2

114:17 115:6, 9experience 100:8experience. 100:8experiencing 117:1expert. 86:23expertise 119:12experts 86:21explaining 59:17explains 126:15expressed 22:18ex-spouse 77:8 78:5ex-spouse, 98:23ex-spouse. 77:2 79:9extensive 13:13extra 115:9extreme. 13:6

< F >face 100:17, 17 102:6faces 87:8facing 74:1fact 17:21 20:17 46:23 121:16fact. 50:4facts 41:2 46:22failed 69:6fails 69:2failure 68:22 73:10fair 40:9 46:12 59:12fair. 72:8fairly 47:16 94:23families 41:18Family 2:16 6:5 7:10, 14 15:10 32:10, 12 34:4 37:2 47:5, 7, 13 49:23 50:6 56:2,8 58:2 63:20 87:9, 12 88:8, 20 100:1, 5 103:2, 4 108:7 111:7, 14,22 112:1, 2 114:14

Meeting 138


far 28:1 54:6 60:4fast 113:10father 64:11fatherhood 64:7fault 59:15favor 11:13 31:7Faye 2:8 7:2 52:21 59:7, 8, 23 63:22 120:4 123:16Faye. 122:12February 7:19 11:7 39:17 48:14 88:13 92:18 99:13federal 6:12 24:21 25:2, 5, 9 30:13 36:16 37:15, 22 38:3, 5 42:14 66:17 67:2 70:9 81:6,8, 12, 17 91:2 93:4, 8, 13 95:3,8 99:9 108:4Feds 33:10 85:16, 20Feds, 30:14feel 3:20 24:10fees 113:8few 86:20field 13:15 65:8 121:15field. 90:8, 14fight 79:4figure 23:19 120:5file 13:9 71:7 105:9file. 105:6filed 117:23filed. 62:19files 13:14 63:3 72:10filing 110:2, 3, 3filings 74:11fill 95:22 118:16finally 117:3Finance 15:20 24:17

financial 66:15,20 85:6 113:6find 68:21 70:17 81:3 100:10 101:13 106:17, 23finding 46:21, 23fine 3:9 83:20Finley 19:22first 3:5 11:20 30:21, 22 45:8 50:2 55:21 80:12, 19 85:8 86:14 91:18 127:11first. 30:9 75:10fit 19:14 20:8 47:16, 20, 22fit. 88:2fits 92:11five 14:21 21:20 27:15 34:12 112:19 113:11 116:14fix 92:21flexibility 34:2 40:1, 14 41:7floor 90:17Florida 113:19focus 6:5 33:20focusing 66:3folks 121:4folks. 80:11follow 18:11 23:11 43:3 67:6 93:6 95:15following 1:14 20:7 73:7foot 127:12for 1:20 2:3 8:5 14:18 23:2 27:5 40:19 45:20 47:16 54:14 56:5 74:16 77:8 87:10 94:7 98:17 103:9 105:1 113:7 115:18for. 74:5

Force 50:1 55:16, 20 58:2 82:1, 3forced 80:23forces 87:13Ford 2:5 9:7, 9,9, 12, 17, 22 20:16 23:4 28:12 30:23 31:2 36:18 37:1 42:15, 19, 23 48:2, 17 52:5 54:20 61:19, 21 67:7, 14 84:5 86:22 97:17 102:13 119:18 120:3 123:19Ford. 9:8foregoing 128:9,11forge 52:14form 104:23 118:17 126:15, 16former 6:8 80:19 81:2forms 88:19 101:10 125:18 126:14, 22forms. 127:3formulate, 62:7Fort 113:20fortunate 61:1forum 90:3forward 4:9 43:21 62:12 112:20 113:10fought 79:10found 38:14, 15four 12:2 14:21 21:19 26:5 27:6 34:12 45:12 70:3 71:10, 12 89:22four. 106:10free 3:20 28:14Freedom 4:16Friday, 1:16friend 4:9friendly 63:20friendly. 64:11

from 8:10 15:6 24:16 25:11 58:6, 11 63:22 75:3 96:3 117:11, 14 124:18front 83:22 104:16frustrations 73:22full 32:12fully 15:9function 121:12fund 94:17funding 14:12 29:10 30:9, 13,16 41:23 53:4 55:12 64:2, 17 82:23 92:17, 20 94:16 122:21funding. 23:13 122:20funneled 83:5furnished 36:5further 41:9 101:10 128:11,14, 17future 3:12

< G >gallon 113:21, 22gambling 95:20 104:20gas 26:12 113:17, 19 114:4,6geared 37:14, 16general 111:8 124:15gentleman 4:8 18:8 36:6 75:10Georgia 16:23get 29:19 49:21 77:15 94:6 95:1 99:8 110:13getting 3:17 54:13 62:11 106:3, 22 107:18 110:8 111:3 117:22 121:21 124:9, 10

Meeting 139


gifts 95:19 96:3 104:21give 4:18 7:19 12:5 29:8 30:11,18 34:1, 7, 8 50:8 58:9, 18 69:22 89:18 93:11 97:11 101:1 112:4 120:5 126:2, 4given 41:2 91:14 114:16 115:5giving 43:12glad 3:2, 22 6:22 29:6 86:19 118:20 127:15gladly 34:21global 56:2 114:14globally 65:22go 4:13 5:16 9:23 18:22 20:2 27:8, 16 32:21 39:14 42:20 47:21 52:9, 18 53:22 54:17 55:5 78:17 79:3 80:4, 8 81:7, 13 83:8 84:17 86:3 87:6 90:19 91:20 92:18 93:1 96:6 99:16 109:15 112:11 115:3, 18, 19 120:6 121:5go. 19:6goal 87:12goes 44:13 51:17 55:6 57:14 60:19 71:20 82:19, 20 85:23 102:22 120:16, 17going 3:1 4:13 9:14 14:13 18:13 21:4 22:16 23:9, 16 24:2 26:8, 17 27:5, 12, 12 28:2

36:4, 14, 20 38:2,23 39:2 40:3 42:6, 15 45:6 47:13 50:1, 5 55:17, 21 56:1 57:9 58:14 63:11 69:10 70:18 77:5 78:23 83:12 86:2, 6 92:3, 3 94:16 98:5 100:19 101:1 102:8 105:18 107:12 108:15,15 110:8, 17, 18 112:16 113:2 122:11gonna 91:12Good 9:21, 22 10:22 12:17 14:7, 9 23:2 27:9, 20 28:13 31:13, 15 39:15 41:5 42:2 43:19 48:15 51:18 58:16 68:12 73:13 74:20 90:12 91:23 93:23 98:18 105:13 112:12,14, 21 116:20 119:15 127:8good. 126:20Gordon 2:4 4:12 5:18 12:8 19:21 49:23 55:19 67:15 122:13got 17:8 35:10 77:7got. 110:8government 36:16 82:10 91:2 99:10governmental 87:10governor 90:10grade 124:15graduates 77:3Grandma 49:14grant 64:14

granted 59:16 96:11great 3:14 4:8 5:13 35:5 64:6 78:10 79:15 86:15 90:4 93:20 105:13 119:11 126:11, 16great. 125:10greatly 127:4gripe 103:2, 4gross 17:7 42:10 72:16 79:13 95:11gross. 42:7grounds 40:19group 17:5 53:9 116:19group. 86:21grow 92:13grown 69:17guardian 116:8guardianships 112:3guess 106:16guesstimate 13:16guesstimates 30:5guest 3:5guests 3:3guideline 17:14 57:8GUIDELINES 1:3,16 12:1 16:20 17:3, 6, 7, 9, 13 19:2, 8 20:8, 11,14 26:23 27:4, 6 32:12 35:23 40:14 41:15 43:22 45:19 47:2 49:19 57:15 70:2 76:20 93:5 114:3guidelines, 16:17Guidelines. 6:14 22:14 33:15 37:10 119:20guy 71:8 72:19

93:21guy. 69:15 93:23

< H >had 10:14 32:7 54:7 113:8had. 32:15half 89:8 93:6half. 113:4hammer 119:14Hampshire 16:19hand 94:4 126:19hand. 52:20handbook 78:22handed 100:7handle 59:3 61:3 72:23happen 47:14 102:23 111:21happen. 32:6happened 26:8 127:13happens 106:20happier 114:23happy 34:18 35:2, 8 91:5hard 64:3harder 3:10 96:2has 5:12 24:6 26:12 62:13 81:4hate 87:13have 3:12 17:2,9 32:19 33:16 52:12 57:18 66:12 70:16 77:4 100:14 115:4 118:20have. 104:7he 8:17 55:5 70:10 106:12head 93:9head. 89:23heading 92:23health 31:15 33:9 34:17 35:21, 22 36:17 37:9 38:10, 20 39:10 41:6 43:11 90:7, 8, 15,

Meeting 140


16, 18 91:12 98:21, 23 99:10Healthcare 36:14 37:4, 15 90:7, 11healthcare. 33:22hear 24:16 58:6,11 61:20 74:22 75:3 90:4 94:2,11 103:2, 4heard 65:21 93:21 110:12 114:15 117:3, 12 122:13hearing 60:12 65:2 73:7 74:8 103:20 105:11 127:22hearing. 60:16heart 48:17Heflin-Torbert 1:17held 1:14 118:1help 18:17 35:8 66:23 73:17 100:20 103:14 122:5 128:13helped 11:23 24:7helpful 33:12, 16 41:18 125:18her 4:18 26:23 56:16 97:11 106:21 107:2her. 82:13 83:9 85:2here 57:13 91:23here. 4:6 14:9 47:14 86:14 94:9, 13 117:10hereto 51:13he's 70:6 71:10Hey 18:4 97:18hey, 124:8hide 42:9hiding 107:2high 13:15 112:17higher 13:5 98:17highest 98:16

him. 25:21 34:8 79:12hindered 44:17hire 23:8, 10 121:6hired 61:23hit 64:2 93:16hold 73:2holding 81:13Home 13:1 89:22honest 74:2honestly 32:14Honor 76:7hoops 100:20Hope 118:21 122:7hoped 120:7Hopefully 93:1,10, 11 112:4hopefully, 29:21hoping 27:7 55:9 56:1horse 30:8hours 77:20house 71:16, 20house. 125:9how 24:4how, 13:21human 108:21hundred 25:14husband 106:11

I 5:4 6:10 7:13 10:13, 20 12:11 25:1, 20 27:15 29:11 33:23 34:9 36:5 37:3 40:21 45:14 47:11 64:1 67:8 70:3 85:18 88:11 89:9, 11 91:13 93:15 94:5 105:22 112:18 113:11,15 114:14 115:6 117:4 121:15 122:1 126:13I. 11:14I'd 18:6 119:5

idea 18:5 105:13,14 114:21idea. 12:17 73:13 126:11ideal 19:10identified 123:6identify 101:11if 21:4, 18 37:4 40:9 45:1 63:10 68:15 70:17 95:3 101:7 112:10 122:6ignorance 26:20III-D 54:11I'll 115:13illegal 117:18I'm 6:3, 23 8:23 27:17 74:18 75:18 76:3 82:3 87:8 89:12 122:10immediately 63:3 117:23impact 92:3, 4impatient 126:4imperative 99:14implemented 64:4implied 63:6, 12importance 65:17important 19:19,23 77:15 92:14impute 68:10in 6:12 9:15 12:15 15:17 16:15 17:20 20:2 33:8 44:22 46:18 51:3, 12 52:7 64:23 65:15, 22 71:6 84:23 85:12 86:7 88:15 93:2 96:6, 20 97:14 98:1 99:12 100:17 101:4 106:4 108:1 109:17 111:7 113:19 116:16 117:18 118:2, 13 127:4 128:10, 16in. 14:1 54:17

incarcerated 107:5include 32:9 40:19 114:6included 32:13 104:15includes 12:22including 31:23 57:8 60:23 110:16inclusive 121:9income 12:21 17:7, 8, 22 27:11,11, 11 42:7, 9, 9 66:17, 19 67:2, 2,18 68:6, 19 69:3 70:9 71:22 78:3,5, 15 79:7, 12, 13,16 81:9, 15, 19,20 82:5 83:19 84:1 89:18 95:11, 18, 19 96:4 101:11, 21 102:2 104:15, 18,19, 20 113:6, 7,15 115:11, 11, 13 119:21income, 104:17income. 42:17 66:1 104:15 106:18incomes. 72:16incorrect 10:17Indiana 57:7, 10,16indicated 37:12 38:17individual 37:3industries 109:4industry 33:9 109:9information 35:8 66:20 69:23 70:6 72:20 91:5 93:2 107:1 115:17information. 17:11inheritance 102:1

Meeting 141


initiate 125:1initiative 123:11initiatives 64:3injustices 32:14in-person 101:4input 66:6 93:17,18Insitute 2:11instance. 36:12Institute. 7:17institution 116:7institution, 116:6instructions 125:21insurance 31:15 33:9 34:17 35:22, 22 36:11,17 37:10 38:10,20 39:10 41:6 43:11 50:10 76:8, 10, 22 77:5,5 90:7, 16, 19 91:13 98:21, 23 99:2, 11insure 62:13intended 93:14intent 90:20, 21,23 91:1, 2intent. 37:17interest 20:17 95:6 100:5, 18 101:23 115:12interested 33:1 44:10 116:16 128:16interesting. 59:21internal 103:20 104:6interpret 51:23interstate 61:8intervention 110:10into 36:14 57:14 71:14 109:15introduce 3:4, 6 4:14 5:16 9:7, 8 14:2involved 13:5 19:19 21:18 48:21 60:9

65:15 83:6 86:2,5 95:2 96:20, 20involved. 65:12involvement 60:5involves 95:11involving 106:7Iowa 16:19IRS 94:22 95:3is 4:7 5:14 6:15 11:19 21:11 35:17 38:10 50:2 68:2 70:12 72:12, 23 74:1 76:7 84:17 85:20 87:6 92:2 93:7 94:21, 22 95:20 105:17 108:14, 19 109:1,11 112:14 126:15, 22is. 25:14 85:15isn't 34:23 71:19issue 13:1, 10, 12 24:20 25:1 29:1 33:3 35:18, 22 36:2, 7 37:1, 8 40:15, 19 41:6 43:1, 2, 8 44:11 48:3, 12 58:6 62:2 81:20 87:19 89:13 92:19 95:10 106:15 107:16 110:23 119:1 125:5 126:8issue. 32:22 35:20 44:13 67:11 112:23issued. 81:22issues 13:7 29:1 30:4 31:20, 21 43:4, 9, 12 44:2 47:8 50:20 58:10, 11, 13 65:10, 19 74:10 101:14 102:17,20 109:9, 11 123:23issues. 34:14 57:22 63:21

it 22:7 24:13 25:15 35:22 82:18 84:20 90:2 96:12 106:19 112:9 114:16 121:8it, 123:17it. 10:15 39:2 65:3 74:2 81:7 99:5 101:8 107:9 118:21 123:18itemized 104:17its 44:23 93:13 108:11it's 44:19 62:10 79:14 112:5IV-D 54:11 82:21,23 92:17, 20I've 5:18 56:22 78:19 116:13

< J >Jackson 2:21 3:6, 16 5:11 12:9 36:8 118:19jail 74:15 107:8,13 110:19 117:19 118:3, 8Jane 11:23 12:12, 18 14:14 16:6 18:12 22:23 27:21 29:8 30:2Jane. 30:6January 36:15 87:22 111:16Jefferson 2:14 112:15 117:1Jennifer 2:7 7:5 37:6 53:1, 13 59:7Jennifer. 103:11Jersey 16:22Jim 2:22 75:18Jim, 78:22job 3:9, 17 4:8 5:13 77:4 82:2 109:5, 8, 10

110:14 117:21 124:21job. 77:6jobs 107:3, 7 110:18join 74:23join. 29:3joining 117:11joint 46:6 50:12 51:5, 9, 9, 12 56:19 57:4 123:21Jr 2:5Judge 2:5, 6, 14,14, 15, 15 6:9 7:12, 13 9:8, 9,10, 12, 17, 22 11:12, 13 14:1, 4,5, 9, 18 16:10, 12 20:16 21:16, 21 22:3, 11, 20 23:4 25:23 28:12 30:23 31:2, 16,18, 19 32:19 33:17 34:3, 4, 9,15, 18, 22 35:2,12, 13, 16 36:13,18, 19 37:1 38:23 39:3, 17,19, 23 40:20, 23 41:4, 21 42:11,15, 19, 23 43:12,19 44:21 45:9 46:9 48:1, 2, 17 49:4, 9, 23 50:23 52:5, 18 54:20 55:3, 3, 19 56:5,12 57:4, 23 58:18, 22 59:22 60:19 61:15, 19,21 62:17, 23 65:13 67:7, 14,15 68:1, 16, 20 69:17 71:4 72:1,15, 22 73:10, 14,21 74:3 75:21 76:1, 3, 13, 16 77:10, 12, 16 78:1, 18 79:7, 12 80:15 81:4, 20

Meeting 142


82:16 83:17, 19 84:5, 6, 8, 10 85:19 86:9, 10,22 89:22 92:9,11, 12 93:19, 23 95:13 96:19, 19 97:17, 21 98:1,12, 22 99:3, 17 102:11, 13 118:22 119:3, 10,18 120:3 121:19 123:19 126:12, 20judge. 97:20judges 34:2 39:23 40:14, 22 41:18 45:5 46:18 48:6, 10,16 50:7, 9 54:15,15, 22 55:14, 17 56:23 66:7 68:15 73:2, 3 89:18 97:14 103:3, 5 109:15 114:2 116:20, 21 121:1, 21 124:6judge's 82:15 83:1, 2judges. 44:1 60:23 100:1 102:13 124:6judgment 73:12Judicial 1:17Judith 109:14Julia 2:13, 21 3:7 6:3 11:10,10 35:6, 15Julie 2:14 13:22 14:4, 7 25:23 35:4, 6, 14 45:8 49:14Julie. 25:22July 16:21 19:17jump 98:16 100:19junior 115:8just 16:12 29:12 34:19 58:22 68:10 89:22 91:15 102:6 114:3 124:11

Justice 2:10 6:6,7 23:22 24:1, 10 29:11 40:17 41:1, 9, 14, 17 43:3 57:18 59:6 99:22 100:2 104:9, 13, 23 105:8Justices 6:16, 18 92:2juvenile 6:8 55:5

< K >Keegan 109:14keep 4:20 56:7 62:15 110:2, 7, 8 116:2Kenneth 2:23 87:7kept 107:2, 7kicked 106:15kidding. 54:12kids 77:18 88:5,8, 9, 14 89:5, 22 108:15 109:22kids. 77:20 91:11 92:22Kimberly 59:9Kimbrough 2:13 6:3, 3 11:9, 11kin 128:14kind 23:20 60:19 68:12 87:17 94:2 109:2 124:10 125:2knew 107:12know 10:14 15:17 20:8 22:9 24:3 25:7, 11 26:12, 14 27:18 32:11, 23 33:11,13 35:18 37:4 38:8 40:5 42:8,12 44:10 45:1 46:18, 18 47:8,12 52:6 53:1, 4,14, 14, 16 54:3, 3,7, 9 55:22 56:5 57:23 59:11, 23

60:3, 9, 21 61:9 63:8, 17 64:4, 16,21, 22 65:5, 7 66:19 67:20, 21 68:19 71:10 74:12, 16 77:7, 9,18 84:3 87:8 90:9 91:4, 4, 12 93:18, 21 94:1, 3 96:4, 10, 10, 19 97:3, 9 98:14, 15,19 99:8, 22 100:6, 16 101:19,20 102:9 103:2,3 107:14, 14 108:22 109:19 111:11 113:16 114:18 115:14,20 117:22 118:5,23 119:6 121:1,13, 19 122:18, 21,23 123:4, 15 124:11, 20, 21 125:3know, 28:7 30:3 33:9 36:9 44:12 49:11 57:10 65:7 72:7 102:1know. 37:20 42:22 54:5 55:19 111:11 116:14 122:23 124:12knowledge 53:16 124:16knowledgeable. 61:4

< L >label 51:17lack 50:17 65:22 88:14 98:18ladies 100:16lady 58:23 89:14,21 106:7laid 82:1, 2 95:15Landry 2:23 8:11, 19, 21 9:2 10:4, 7 48:13, 18 94:20, 20 97:18,

20, 23 98:10, 13 99:6, 16, 20 100:3 101:3, 12,18 102:6, 15language 43:7language. 43:18Lanier 4:16 128:6, 20Lanier, 1:19 128:21Large 1:21 54:8 96:12 102:18 124:3 128:8last 5:11 21:16 74:8last. 119:2lasted 113:3late. 118:14lately 63:23later 105:19later. 41:12Law 2:11 3:13 5:19 7:14, 17 47:7 50:1, 6 55:5, 6 56:2, 8 58:2 68:21 81:6,8, 12, 16 84:6 88:20 100:5 111:7, 13, 14, 22,22 112:1, 2 114:14law. 6:5 61:5 81:17 86:11laws 87:12, 22lawyer 10:4 97:10 105:19 107:23lawyers 44:20 50:10, 11 51:18,19 52:19 55:18 66:7 78:20 97:13, 14 98:1 109:16layperson 67:21lays 96:12, 13leaps 126:17learn 124:18leave 9:21 125:9Legal 2:7 7:5 35:7, 12 50:12

Meeting 143


51:9 116:6 126:2, 4legislation 57:19,20legislative 57:22 111:13legislators 87:21 90:18 91:7legislature 111:12length 13:3less-than 121:3let's 31:6 119:14letter 58:15, 19 60:1, 1, 11, 18 88:23 89:14level 52:10 99:17, 17 110:12 123:15 124:16level. 22:17 99:18, 21levels 29:20 103:22levels. 27:2Lexis 80:6liaison 6:19licensed 128:17lie 42:8 96:2, 3,11 97:14life 52:16 119:12life. 107:13lifestyle 71:13 72:2lifetime 47:11light 39:10like 14:13 51:6 55:2 73:16Limestone 59:2limit 75:12limitations 23:19,20limited 12:23 55:4 60:4limits 122:21line 8:10 95:20 96:6 107:20line. 102:4lines 124:13 125:12list 15:21 42:6

75:5, 6 95:21list. 42:20listen 98:2 122:4litems, 116:8litigant 52:11, 11 67:11 108:16 110:2 121:2, 10 124:14litigants 52:12 67:8 126:1litigants, 73:23litigants. 125:18litigation 6:13 108:1, 10littered 103:5little 13:6 18:15 24:11 30:6 37:6 38:8 48:20 58:19 64:18 86:16 96:2, 8, 17 100:8 119:5live 77:19 100:9 101:4lives 92:14living 109:21 127:10Lloyd 2:23 112:14, 15 116:4local 103:15locations. 124:1long 18:18 20:10 45:16 97:15 111:3 119:18 122:10longer 119:1Look 4:9 18:22 19:1 21:10, 17 22:3, 13, 23 33:5 39:18 40:13 41:15 50:12, 13 51:16, 16 55:17 56:1 57:6, 14 66:3 72:2 80:3 87:7 90:1, 20 91:16, 17 92:8 101:10 113:23 124:2, 4 127:13looked 13:10, 12 21:23 33:15 42:13 98:20 99:7

looking 34:3 50:9 58:3 63:18 71:22 74:5, 19 107:21 110:23looks 108:17lose 108:16losing 107:2, 7lost 106:4 117:21lot 7:22 17:8, 10 29:1 33:8, 10, 19 35:18, 19 40:8,10 42:5 48:2 53:2 59:15 60:21, 22 61:5 62:18 63:20 69:23 70:4 73:23 75:16 88:5 93:21 97:7 102:18 119:11 120:1, 1, 2, 13, 14 121:1, 4 122:5 124:5, 6 126:14,21 127:5, 9lot. 55:7lots 3:3love 117:5love. 49:3loved 52:16low 12:21 13:11lowered 17:21 100:19, 21Lyn 2:10 6:6 24:2 29:11

< M >Macon 2:5 9:9Macy's 69:19Maddox 2:19 5:14 8:7 12:7,18 15:1, 4, 16 18:16, 19 24:3, 6 25:17, 19 28:21 55:2, 9, 14 75:7 118:11 125:5 127:1, 4Maddox. 87:21Madison 2:15 7:13 59:3 61:1 73:17

mail 16:1 58:23 85:13mailed 16:1 85:13main 49:16 77:21maintained 105:1,5Maintaining 19:23major 28:8, 9 48:3majority 20:21 42:10majority. 110:5make 10:21 51:1make-up 5:6making 27:14, 15,18 47:20, 22 69:23 70:3, 4, 7,7, 18, 19, 20 71:11 93:3 109:17 115:1man 5:6man. 24:17 31:13Manager 7:1mandate 37:15 78:1 81:4mandated 78:4 80:15 87:23 91:12mandatory 85:18,21, 23 86:6manner 128:16man's 19:20mantle 31:12many 92:5 112:20March 57:9 78:14 79:22Mark 78:21marriage 32:4married 20:19, 23married. 69:12marrying 69:13Mary 2:12 29:4 125:16Massachusetts 16:16 17:5 18:7

Meeting 144


matter 23:7 50:4 67:19 72:21 128:10matter. 71:23 128:13may 40:7 68:11maybe 51:7McCalla 89:21McKINNEY 5:8me 50:12 89:18me. 3:21 127:13 128:10mean 17:13 26:13 38:1 40:21 51:18 59:11 83:1 89:20 95:20 110:23 115:7 116:13mean, 115:8meaningful. 119:8means 93:11 123:16, 18meant 8:15, 18 9:1 10:2mechanism 63:14 88:22mediate 44:15mediated 44:20 75:22 76:6mediation 109:16 111:21 116:4, 12medical 38:10medicals 45:22medication 116:5meet 87:20, 21 119:4 123:5MEETING 1:2, 15 5:12 7:18 10:11 11:7, 22 12:8 15:4 16:23 21:17 39:17 43:6, 17 44:4 50:2, 2 55:22 88:12 122:14meeting. 22:19 94:11meetings 20:4 119:2meetings. 120:2

Melissa 2:21 4:21, 22 5:5member 6:11, 20 7:9, 23 23:15 29:3members 4:13 9:13, 15, 20 58:21 75:4 80:2 92:5, 6 94:19 105:14 118:12memory 34:11 36:4 38:7men 74:9mention 18:13 26:1 89:17 123:20mentioned 21:16 31:22 64:21 77:11 87:17mentioned. 95:13merits. 73:12mess 3:17message 106:4Messick 128:6,20, 21met 5:11Mgr 2:9Michael 2:16 7:8 22:11Michael. 7:7 92:10might 72:22Mike 16:13 18:4 33:13 44:9 87:17Mike. 35:11, 15mileage. 118:17miles 87:2 113:16military 77:22 78:2, 15, 22 79:16 89:9million 120:8million. 120:12millions 113:9mind 33:5 34:15mind. 35:12 47:17mindful 112:16 116:15, 17

mine 62:9 76:5mine. 87:3minimal 62:10minimum 34:1 68:10 72:3minute 55:6minutes 75:13minutes. 50:8missed 81:5misstate 101:8Mobile 2:9 7:1 89:4, 12model 17:15modification 82:17modification, 80:14modifications 103:14modify 51:22module 55:2modules 54:23mom 87:16moment 52:15money 18:15 19:12 20:10 24:4 27:14 28:15 70:1 79:1 80:20 89:11 93:4, 9, 13 102:1 109:17 110:13 115:1 116:9money. 19:11 70:4Montgomery 1:18 85:13Montgomery. 86:8month 26:14 50:3, 3 61:21 64:18 71:16, 17 80:13, 19 82:6 87:20 93:10 113:17 114:6month. 26:15 62:1 71:18 77:17months 101:20months. 68:3

Moore 2:12 29:4,4 59:7 98:9 125:16, 16 126:18more 34:1 69:23 91:4morning 112:14mother 51:11 107:16motion 8:2 11:5 25:18 29:23 30:1, 11, 21, 21 63:4 127:16, 20motion, 11:7 31:3move 43:21 44:6Move. 127:17moved 127:18moved. 11:9moving 60:22 112:20much 14:12 50:18 72:13much. 4:5, 11 35:16 72:14 127:21my 36:3 40:16 42:5 115:20 116:17 119:3 121:23

< N >name 4:19 6:1 7:12 9:18 10:23 26:22 75:11, 18 87:6 105:17 112:14named 106:7National 2:17 7:10natural 108:11necessarily 121:10necessary 19:8 96:14 101:15necessary. 19:9 20:14need 3:20 9:20 10:21 12:14 14:13 18:11 19:19 20:13

Meeting 145


21:7 22:3, 9, 13 23:19 27:17 29:14 30:1, 1, 5,8 32:16, 21, 22 40:1, 12 41:22 66:10 71:1 90:1,1 93:17 98:19 110:17, 19, 19, 20,20 115:10 118:10, 11 119:13 122:23need. 94:17 122:17needed 13:18needs 10:23 19:21 22:15 65:16 76:8 87:16 99:7, 16 123:5negotiate 19:14 44:14neither 84:8, 9 128:14Nelson 2:8 7:2,2 24:18, 23 53:4,8, 13, 20, 23 54:19 59:8 60:3,7 64:1, 10, 13 65:5 81:7 103:12 120:11,16 122:13, 17 123:10, 14net 17:7 42:6, 9,10, 16 98:17never 13:12 20:23 36:8 81:5 115:14, 14 122:6new 3:7 16:19,22 19:4 26:11 29:3, 16 32:2 41:23 48:5, 5 50:7, 9 53:15 54:15, 21 55:3 71:20, 21 78:19 99:9 116:21 124:5, 6news 93:12news. 59:9nice 117:6

nightmare 61:7nightmare. 61:10nisi 73:4no 46:13 62:20 89:5 100:13 108:23no, 78:8No. 54:20 83:7 118:19non 69:21non-adversarial 112:10noncustodial 49:10 59:20 68:17 72:21 77:14 91:22 92:6 100:12, 13 116:2noncustodial, 69:21noncustodial's 65:23non-employment 104:19nonexistent. 67:13non-factor. 76:18non-wage 95:19 96:4nor 128:15, 15normally 66:12nose, 93:16not 37:15 40:6 44:16 51:16 59:16 65:14, 20 68:1 78:4 84:16 85:16 95:11 121:17 126:6not. 21:2 54:19Notary 1:20note 71:16, 17 79:15noted 60:11notes. 112:21, 22November 10:10now 83:12 110:4 114:10now, 109:14now. 17:18 58:17 64:20

82:4 114:12 117:2 119:23 127:1number 7:20 11:21 25:6 28:2 33:21 46:18 64:22 89:19 96:1 97:5numbers 97:1numbers. 96:7, 15nurse 106:9nursing 115:8

< O >oath 98:6obtain 106:13Obviously 13:20 69:8 110:11occurring 89:15OCSE 63:23Of 5:10 7:3 9:12 13:3, 13 15:19 17:10 22:5 24:20 28:6,8, 19 35:18, 19 36:1 39:10, 20 43:21 45:9 48:22 59:8 60:7 63:6, 20 64:17 65:21 66:10 73:11 75:20 77:1 79:6 88:21 90:23 93:21 101:23 102:18 104:14 114:11 115:5 119:11 120:1, 13 127:5 128:7of. 49:17off 82:1offer 103:14offered 29:18office 4:2 12:10 16:2 25:3, 20 55:1 63:17 81:13 103:15 126:1office. 103:16Offices 82:12

Oh 72:4, 14 76:3 96:23 105:15 118:4Okay 7:7 23:18 35:17 44:6 70:19 81:23 87:4 105:14 109:1 117:14Okay. 32:18 39:8 42:23 58:4 75:14 77:23 81:11 85:11old 26:5, 17omitted 10:22on 3:1 7:18, 20 12:5 13:17 18:9 31:22 33:20 34:13 95:7 97:15 124:4onboard 53:15once 61:21 62:1 77:17 92:15one 5:6 8:8 34:18 69:20 87:13 88:7 110:12one- 53:16one-day 123:6one-half 87:14one-on-one 53:14 54:6 91:5,7ones 19:4only 25:23 86:5 88:13on-one 53:17open 1:21 4:2 125:13operating 94:12opinion 47:21opinion. 78:12opportunities 62:10 64:14opportunity 10:15 54:8 64:19 89:7 90:16 91:15, 15 92:17 93:19 101:14 112:10

Meeting 146


Opposed 11:16 20:20 31:9 124:3opposing 105:11opt 112:8, 9option 83:23 84:19 107:12or 3:20 16:4 21:19, 22 23:8 28:3 29:23 38:8 44:14, 23 60:1 64:4 66:11 67:18 90:15 97:21 113:6 116:1 123:6order 6:12 27:17 51:23 68:16 73:1, 3, 4, 16 74:1 81:9, 15, 18,21 82:15, 22 83:2, 2, 19 84:1 127:8order. 81:10 84:1, 10ordered 62:20 69:2 70:8 96:23ordered. 62:21orders 81:13 85:23 95:12ore 8:15, 18 9:1 10:2 98:12, 13, 15Organization 2:17 9:19 93:18Organization. 7:11 87:11organizational 55:22orientation 55:4orientation. 50:7original 9:13, 15,20other 39:11 45:13 53:5 54:22 58:5 66:4 69:5 74:21 94:18 127:7other. 45:4 52:17 62:6ought 23:7 34:1 59:10 63:13 72:15 122:10

our 3:4 5:13 9:20 13:20 23:18 34:11 38:1 39:16 60:4 76:21 82:16 88:9 89:7, 15 90:17 91:6 92:21 93:17 94:12ourselves. 5:17out 15:16 23:19 118:16out. 77:13 95:15,22outcome 20:1 36:1out-of-pocket 45:22outside 3:13 70:21 76:21 114:21 115:20over 13:9 20:4 88:8over. 98:16overall 17:22 19:12 93:15overall. 40:22overcome 69:8 70:14overnight 114:7own 5:8own. 100:15

p.m. 127:22page 8:10pages 10:17 128:12paid 15:5, 12 24:4, 5 80:12paid. 40:11painted 121:21Palmer 2:14 14:1, 4, 4, 9 25:23, 23 36:13,19 45:9 46:9 48:1 49:4, 9 71:4 72:1 77:12 83:17 84:6, 8

86:10 96:19 126:12, 20Palmer, 77:10panel 110:9panhandle 113:18, 19papers 3:18paperwork 113:1,5parent 38:9 40:3 47:19 49:6, 7, 10,10, 15 51:11 56:15 59:20 63:6, 15 68:17 69:22 76:9 77:15 87:14 91:22 96:21 97:10 100:13 103:19 116:1, 2parent. 72:21parenting 13:8 19:10 20:9 21:11 44:13, 15 52:13 57:7, 11 62:14 63:15 74:12 87:18 93:8 102:20Parents 2:17 7:11 19:13, 18 20:9 22:6 44:14 47:16, 20, 22 49:15 50:19 62:14 76:11 77:9 88:1 92:6 100:12 112:11 120:17parents. 19:15 47:23 100:12part 23:1 103:6 113:18 115:16part. 115:15participated 53:1particular 32:20 34:14, 14 35:20 40:15, 18 41:2, 3 43:2 51:23 60:15 65:3 103:17, 23 106:19 121:8, 15particularly 62:9

parties 32:3 45:10, 17 65:11 73:6 86:9 96:4,13 112:5, 6 116:16 128:15parties, 96:9parties. 78:16 79:17parts 60:22party 40:6, 7 46:2, 3 63:1, 13 69:4, 6 84:8, 9 113:5 121:3party. 63:16 105:12Paschal 2:23 10:12 87:6, 7 92:13 94:15passed 75:7 111:12, 23 118:13 127:20passing 19:4paternity 62:19pay 25:6, 9 29:15 80:15, 18,23 82:17 83:2, 9 85:6, 7, 10 98:23 102:10 107:3, 6,11 117:19 118:7 121:5, 6, 17paycheck 82:7paying 28:15 40:6 63:1, 16 70:1 76:11 84:16payment 81:5 84:13, 16 86:1, 3,6, 7payroll 84:20pediatric 106:8Penalty 68:13, 14Penny 2:11 7:16 32:23 35:14 72:8Penny. 23:5Pensacola 113:20people 7:19 30:15 36:16 42:8 51:6 52:15 58:7 61:12 62:18 66:18, 23 67:18, 20 71:6

Meeting 147


73:15 74:14, 15 75:16 92:3 95:11 96:10, 11 97:8 100:7 101:15 110:15 120:14 124:14 125:3 126:6, 18people. 4:15 15:22 70:22people's 106:18percent 24:20 25:10, 13, 14 45:23 71:6 82:8 95:4percent. 91:9perhaps 116:22perimeter 76:21period. 49:5periods 51:12perking 100:16permanent 27:5permission 29:20perpetually 110:4Perry 2:12 29:5person 21:5 46:4 68:21 69:2 72:9 110:13person. 110:14 114:17persons 20:18, 22perspective 59:19 72:5 111:1 123:1petition 117:23Ph.D. 19:22phone 80:21physical 51:9 56:17physically 96:6pick 31:17picture 34:4pitch 28:9place 108:20 116:13placement 48:22 56:10placement. 44:8places 87:15plans 93:8

playing 9:5pleading 73:4please 4:3, 18 11:8 12:6 14:3 19:6 31:4 84:3 87:5 93:18pleasure 52:6, 7 124:18plus 57:15 61:18 95:4pocket 113:9 116:10pockets 102:21point 6:15 10:22 15:6 19:20 23:2 27:20 28:13 30:17 34:8 62:5 88:1 95:16 107:19 112:9, 12point, 68:9point. 6:21 33:2 41:20 42:2 88:22 123:10pointed 55:3pointing 77:13points 75:21 101:7points. 105:21Polemeni 2:16 7:8, 8 16:15 17:16, 20 18:3, 6 19:7 20:7 21:6,13 28:6, 17 31:1 33:19 35:7 36:1,9, 21 37:18 38:22 42:5, 18,21 44:12 46:8,12 47:15 57:7,13 58:4 72:7, 17 74:6 80:1 82:20 83:4 85:16, 20 92:11 94:15 97:19 117:16 118:2, 5 124:13 125:11 127:19policy 32:10population 123:4portfolio 115:13portion 99:1

posed 117:4position 29:15position. 61:17positions 110:18positive 9:3possible 8:9 30:13possible. 59:14possibly 43:23 44:4 55:15 92:8post-minority 77:1power 68:15powers 66:13practical 23:6 67:19practice 3:13 6:4practiced 5:19 7:14 107:23practicing 66:7preamble 57:13precedent 79:3predecessor 4:7prefer 52:19preliminary 13:4premium 32:13premium. 32:4, 10present 65:9 105:5Present: 2:20presentation 13:2, 4presented 72:8presumed 22:6 69:5presumption 69:3 70:12presumption. 70:14pretty 54:4, 7 64:2 71:5previous 6:13price 26:12 27:2primarily 7:14 51:10primary 6:5principally 103:1principle. 99:3prior 32:4 66:16

114:18prison 117:18private 6:4 7:9pro 32:9, 16 52:10, 11, 12, 19 121:2, 5, 10, 13 124:14 125:18 126:1, 6probably 12:14 20:21 26:20 59:15 92:23 93:9 97:10 113:16 114:10 122:4, 21probate 112:2probate, 108:3problem 39:20 46:14 48:12 62:17 73:16 92:21 97:7 103:17, 19 109:21 116:23 121:4problem. 111:4problems 46:16 47:20 123:23procedure 23:10 88:22 94:12proceeding 108:11, 19 109:23proceeding. 109:3, 7proceedings 1:14 109:6 128:9, 13process 25:5 60:23 65:16 85:14 103:20 104:7 106:21 111:18 112:8process. 56:3 112:7produced 105:1,10produced. 105:3productive 110:21Program 2:9 7:1 54:11, 14 64:7

Meeting 148


120:7 127:12program. 24:9programs 64:8progress. 93:3property 79:8, 9,11proposed 32:8 47:10prove 79:1 96:14provide 22:7 35:7 38:19 67:1,4 68:20 70:9 72:20 95:4 104:16 112:10 113:5 123:15provided 68:3 105:11providing 123:3provision 56:13,18psychologists 116:8psychology 109:9Public 1:20 58:7,8, 12 74:22 75:4 87:5 91:23 94:7,11, 19 105:15 117:12 125:13,14 127:15public. 1:22pull 25:8purchase 15:20purpose 37:12, 17purpose. 93:14pursuant 6:12push 43:16put 14:20 34:19 67:3 79:15 84:10 89:19 91:8 96:7 105:6 109:2 116:9 117:18 118:2, 8 125:6puts 72:9putting 29:8 110:15

< Q >quality 104:6quash 63:4

question 16:10 23:22 25:2 27:10 58:16 77:7 91:18 117:16question, 39:4 98:21question. 26:19 27:9 80:9 120:22questions 4:4 56:9quick 12:5 120:5quickly 42:2 43:5 44:4quiet. 103:12quit. 9:11quite 32:14 44:11 58:7 86:20 87:8

< R >raise 102:7, 11random 30:15range 13:9rata 32:9, 16rather 82:12 109:6reach 64:19read 8:4 10:15 12:14 19:16read. 85:21reading 10:19 88:12real 3:5 4:9 26:7 48:12 61:1 62:2 120:5realignment 12:21realize 61:11really 3:16 13:18 21:7 34:13 41:17 42:19 48:8 52:11 55:19 57:1, 21 59:21 64:3 71:23 76:20 95:2 99:7 116:10 119:13, 22reason 45:4 56:20 105:4

rebuttal 101:1 103:10receipts 114:8, 9,12receive 101:23received 57:8 58:15 63:22 78:6 89:1receiving 40:7 63:13 88:15 93:4, 8recognize 71:1 83:21recognized 56:20recommend 22:16 23:9 90:5,13 92:2, 7recommendation 14:11 32:20 88:18recommends 25:4reconsider 78:18reconsideration 78:7, 8reconsideration. 83:11Record 6:10 52:19 104:10records 66:15redid 16:19 17:12, 13, 19, 20redoing 18:22 19:1 27:4reduced 127:4reduction 115:5,17referee 5:20refereeing 67:9reference 10:16 18:8referred 8:13referring 79:20reform 37:4refresh 34:11 36:3 38:7refuses 70:11refusing 69:22 70:5

regarding 10:13 111:6 115:4regional 124:3registered 69:18reimburse 24:7reimbursement 118:17rein 48:20related 24:8 104:19, 20relates 21:11 35:23 48:23 54:2 94:22relating 111:19relations 6:9Relations. 14:6relationship 19:23 21:1, 4 62:4, 13 81:2relationships 20:20remember 38:12Rena 1:19 4:16 128:6, 20, 21repeat 69:10repeatedly 122:14report 12:5, 22 18:15 27:23 29:19 30:16 43:15, 17 71:6reported 128:10Reporter 1:20 128:7, 22Reporter. 128:19Reporting 4:17 128:18represent 63:5 116:1representative 24:19representatives 123:22represented 45:10, 17 46:2, 4 62:3 97:10 126:7representing 61:13request 14:20 16:7 103:21

Meeting 149


require 13:13 32:12 38:19 112:5required 96:13 115:15, 16required, 66:15requirement 67:3,17requirements 93:7requires 32:6 81:6, 8, 12 104:23requiring 38:9 105:3, 10Reroute 110:10research 12:1 37:7, 11 38:8Researching 16:15reside 51:10resident 112:15resolution. 109:13resolved 48:9 87:20resolved. 123:8resolving 108:13resource 53:18resources 110:11respect 95:7 99:22 122:1respectful 125:4respective 124:1respond 28:20responded. 11:15 31:8response. 11:3,17 31:5, 10 39:13 44:5 75:2 117:13responses 14:22responsibility 34:16 72:9responsibility. 31:12responsible 45:20, 21 98:22result 32:14 73:10 97:11 109:23 119:7

results 124:10 128:16retired 82:1, 3retired. 5:22retirement 78:2,15 79:16 82:5retirement, 82:8retirement. 77:22return 68:18return. 122:2returns 67:19reversed 31:22 32:5review 11:20, 21 17:10 42:1 44:19 45:10 103:21, 22revise 51:2revisit 32:16, 22 34:17rid 49:12, 17, 22right 9:16 11:4,18, 19 13:20 16:9 20:6 21:6,6, 9, 14 28:23 30:19, 19 31:2, 6,11 32:11 34:9 35:6, 10, 13, 21 39:7, 8, 9, 14 43:1 47:21 51:19 54:1, 10 58:5 63:9 64:20 65:4 67:12 69:20 74:21 75:3, 8, 9 76:17 82:4 86:11 88:23 94:18 109:11, 14 114:10, 12 117:1 119:3, 5 127:1right. 10:7 15:3,15 18:3 20:6 22:2, 10 24:22 30:10 34:6 38:4,13, 21 39:3, 22 41:13 46:8 49:8 53:7, 19 55:8 57:3, 12 62:22 64:9, 12 66:21 67:12 70:15, 23

72:17 73:9 74:3 92:9 97:1, 12 98:9 99:15 101:17 102:5 104:1, 8, 22 105:7 123:9rightfully 32:5rightly 63:4Rights 2:16 7:10 15:10 87:9road 33:6Rogers 15:2role 6:20roll 119:13room 5:16 91:19 97:14 103:11 116:17room, 87:7root 111:4Roy 2:23 90:9Rule 22:13 31:23 32:6, 8, 11 34:8 40:1, 21 45:1 48:23 50:11 56:13, 21 57:2 67:17, 21 73:4 77:11 79:5,5, 13 86:15 95:15rules 111:18ruling 78:9run 18:18 20:10 39:1running 20:22

< S >S 2:1said, 51:15said. 8:19, 21 9:3sales 114:21same 20:3 85:23Santiago 78:13,13 79:19Santiago. 79:19sat 93:22satisfactory 40:18save 18:15 19:11, 12 20:9saw 25:1say 16:13 51:8 65:5 69:1 72:2

110:9 123:4 127:8say, 97:2 101:18saying 50:14 72:5 93:2 97:21saying. 23:14says 19:21 52:12 57:19 68:16 70:6 72:12 77:17 78:8 79:6, 12 95:3, 18, 18, 19,19 96:3 105:4 109:15 123:16, 17scale, 54:8schedule 11:20 12:2, 3 17:22 18:23 21:18, 22 22:15 23:1, 2 33:14 48:20 49:2 51:13schedule. 11:21scheduled 12:20 47:7schedules 17:19,20school 28:7 45:14 82:4 124:15school. 84:7scope 124:20se 52:10, 11, 12,19 121:2, 5, 10,14 124:14 125:18 126:1, 6Second 11:11 30:20, 21 77:10 105:15 127:18Second. 11:12 30:23 31:1 127:19secondary 49:11seconded 31:3Section 51:4securities 115:13Security 82:21see 8:17, 23 9:22 13:23 18:14 21:18 22:4 30:15 33:6

Meeting 150


42:15 62:12 91:23 107:10 108:17 113:21 121:2 122:19 123:2, 14seen 101:4 112:19 113:12select 22:23 90:7selected 90:10self- 46:3self-employed 71:9 114:17self-employment 104:18self-represented 46:4 51:8semester 28:18senators 59:9send 51:1 59:6sense 21:15sensitive 61:16 65:6, 16 121:20sensitive, 65:13sent 15:16, 19,20, 23 58:20, 21 59:8separate 63:10separately 104:17September. 92:23serious 126:8serve 6:18 7:22 35:4 63:2 89:7,10served 7:20 9:10 73:4 83:20service 61:8 81:1 82:17services 14:21 82:7 100:14Services. 80:17session 111:13 125:2set 51:3, 12 68:2,3 109:5setting 48:10settlement. 76:6seven 5:21 80:13 88:8 127:12several 10:16

share 25:9 29:18 32:10 60:4 76:12 79:18 88:19, 20,20 91:6 93:2share. 25:10 32:17Shared 19:10 20:9 21:10 44:7,13, 15 45:11 46:6 87:18 102:19sharing 77:2she 4:19 12:12 78:5 82:17 84:21 106:1 107:8sheet 118:13, 16Shelby 2:13 6:4She's 3:9shoes 100:9should 43:23 44:15, 20should. 59:17show 102:8 115:16shuffle. 113:1side 95:3 103:11 104:16 115:10 122:19side. 95:8sides 61:7 72:16sign 23:17 46:1,7 118:12, 15signed 89:20significance. 51:21sign-in 118:12sign-up 118:16Similar 18:1since 52:16 127:9single 52:15 81:15 98:2 110:12, 14sir 4:23 6:1 10:12 12:7 16:15 28:21 118:11

sir. 8:7 18:19 28:5 79:21, 23 80:6 92:8 112:13sit 93:20 122:18 123:21site 13:2 84:15 86:7sitting 31:19 100:3 122:22situation 19:11 61:6, 9 65:7 68:5situation. 41:3six 5:21 14:21 34:12 48:7sleeves 119:13slides 13:6small 106:9smallest 47:4Smith 10:18So 7:21 34:2 55:15 57:17 125:13so. 9:6 53:11social 20:1 82:20society 87:15soften 117:7solution 40:18 108:14solutions 107:21solve 95:9some 12:22 15:21 41:22 43:6 54:1 63:13 72:11 93:1 114:1, 15somebody 51:8 68:5 87:1 100:20 108:14 124:8somehow 70:13someone 90:7, 13something 13:5 19:16 46:19 59:4 71:13 73:14 99:6 124:23somewhat 108:23son. 113:12sooner 41:11

sorry 5:2 8:20 13:22 88:12sorry. 16:11 53:21 80:8sort 15:22 27:5 65:21 67:5 70:21 72:12 101:3 114:13 121:2sound 84:12sounds 72:8 84:12 85:14source 14:18 66:20 79:6sources 30:13 64:17 101:21speak 4:17 25:21 62:6 118:23speak. 45:7speaker 87:4speaking 59:18 90:15 105:18special 3:3, 5specialized 54:2specific 12:23 20:11 30:6 39:4 66:14 79:6specifically 38:15 40:20 78:4 101:11spend 28:15 90:17 114:5spent 19:4 35:19spirit 8:13split 56:15spouse 80:19 81:2staff 5:15 65:6 127:5stand 52:17standard 45:9 94:12standing 73:1, 3,16 95:12stands. 78:9start 3:1 5:23 50:2 110:23

Meeting 151


started 54:14 112:23 119:20 120:6 127:11starting 11:20 23:2 88:1, 22 123:10starts 88:17, 17 99:10STATE 1:4, 16,21 7:3 16:4 19:12 25:10 30:14 36:10 37:23 38:2 41:9 42:13 44:22 45:7 47:4 53:6 56:23 63:5 64:15 67:2 68:18 81:16 82:21 88:16 95:1, 6, 7 102:8,11, 12, 22 104:14 108:2 128:3, 7state. 38:6 41:19stated 38:23 64:2statement 8:10 67:18 68:19statements 113:6states 27:21 28:1 33:7, 12, 21 42:5 44:22 71:7 108:3statewide 47:5,12 48:21 49:2 124:4statewide. 102:20status 12:21 39:8statute 37:22 38:3 52:3statutes 49:20stay 19:19stepfather 32:1stockbroker 114:19stop 73:19 92:20stories 94:2story 65:20 106:2 107:18

straight 113:14 114:19straight. 4:20street 30:15 109:11strongly 3:19struggling 31:21Stuart 2:10 6:6,6 23:22 24:1, 2,10 29:11, 11 38:23 40:17 41:1, 9, 14, 17 57:18 99:23 100:2 104:9, 13,23 105:8Stuart's 43:3stubs 101:20stubs. 102:10student 115:8studies 24:8 26:2, 4, 9study 15:9, 14 27:1, 1, 2 28:10,10 71:4, 5 94:17study. 29:16subcommittee 33:17 34:10, 16 35:4 90:6, 13 119:4subcommittee. 34:20subcommittees 34:12subcommittees, 90:3submitted 16:7 25:2 74:7subpoenaed 67:5 106:23substance 51:5,16substantiate 97:4success 65:22suffering 109:22suggest 8:15 21:10 69:4suggesting 101:9suggestion 8:9 43:4, 7, 21

suggestions 11:1 44:2suicide 107:8Sullivan 78:21sum 101:6summer 45:16supervisor 65:8supplements 55:11SUPPORT 1:3,15 2:8 5:20 6:14 7:3 16:17,20 17:1 21:11 22:6 24:9, 9, 20 27:16 31:20 32:1 37:14 38:16 39:5 40:5,11 44:7 45:19 46:5 47:1 48:4 52:23 53:10 54:6, 16, 23 55:1,18 56:10, 14 59:1 61:3 62:8,11, 19, 20 63:11,18 64:7 66:4, 11 68:2, 7 70:2 73:6, 15 74:1 76:19 80:12, 16,16, 18, 22 81:5, 9,18 82:6, 9, 12 85:9 88:11 90:23 96:23 97:11 100:18, 21 106:15, 20 107:6,11 114:1 115:6 117:20 118:7 120:6 121:6 127:12support. 78:3 80:22 100:22 107:4supporting 64:7supports 3:19suppose 46:10 97:17 98:10supposed 46:10Supreme 2:10 3:8 6:7, 16 12:9 14:12 23:16

57:10 76:16 111:16sure 8:19, 21 9:1 10:2 24:1 29:15, 17 34:22 40:13 48:16 65:20 71:5 80:10 118:12, 15Sure. 23:23 56:6 65:18 95:2 120:23system 20:22 39:1 59:13 106:1 108:8, 19 110:2, 16 119:23system. 88:10

< T >tail 113:3take 21:3, 10 29:13 39:18 44:9 45:8 68:11 71:14 80:3 85:19 97:5 101:9 116:13taken 1:19 5:12 64:16 126:16takes 14:14 108:12, 14talk 14:17 18:20 30:3 50:11 56:22 88:11 92:19 119:5 123:22 126:9talked 10:21 31:15 33:13 39:11 50:6, 16 56:23 78:20, 21talking 19:18 22:11 25:7 27:4,19 43:10 50:14 60:20 65:14, 15 76:4 85:9 99:4 106:17tall 127:12task 14:15 50:1 55:16, 20 58:2tasks. 13:19taught 61:5 83:18, 18 84:4

Meeting 152


tax 13:1 28:14 39:15 40:3, 5 43:10 66:17, 19 67:2, 2, 19 68:18 69:3 70:9 75:22 94:22, 23 95:5, 7 101:22tax. 28:16taxable 40:7taxes 42:14, 21 72:10, 11taxes. 71:7tax-free 115:12team 54:17teeth 66:11telecom 125:7tell 72:22 75:11 98:1 106:2 107:17 108:8 123:17tells 106:2temporarily 92:20tennis 9:5 98:17tenus 8:13, 15 98:11, 13, 15tenus. 8:18 9:1 10:3 98:12Ten-year-old 112:18term 56:11 117:7term. 10:6terminology 57:11terms 15:18 28:2 29:8 51:3,20 63:20 66:5,10 70:21 95:6 111:6territory 99:9 113:18, 19testify 4:18testimony 68:11 98:6texts 80:21Thank 4:5, 6, 11 35:16, 17 40:23 75:16 77:12 86:13, 18, 19 94:9 103:9 105:17 112:12,

13 117:9, 10 127:20Thanks 80:4 94:7, 14that 6:17 10:8 11:22 12:21 16:6, 7 17:5 20:23 21:6 22:16 24:12 25:12 31:11 33:12 34:4, 7 36:6 41:9 42:10 43:4 44:10 48:16 52:3 54:23 55:18 58:19 69:3 81:8,16 82:14 85:1, 5 91:7 104:23 107:17 115:14,16 117:20 121:9 123:1 126:21that, 67:23that. 14:16 18:10 21:5 22:1,9 26:16 41:8 42:14 43:19 46:1, 7 47:2 48:17 58:3 76:2 90:4 91:3 100:23 109:21 111:19 122:5 126:17 127:10That's 27:18 31:18 36:19 46:15 57:23 65:11 85:3 98:7,15 121:12the 1:14, 21, 22 3:7, 10 7:2, 16,19 10:5 11:6 12:1 13:14 16:3 17:13, 21 18:17,22 19:5, 7, 12 20:10, 13 21:1,17, 23 23:1, 15 25:3, 4, 8 26:2 28:9 30:7, 20 32:2 36:13, 15 37:8, 12, 14, 16 38:14 39:7 40:2,

13 45:2, 6, 15 46:22 47:3, 5, 18,19 48:6 49:18 51:4, 20 52:5, 18 54:13 56:7 58:1 59:18 62:12 63:12, 14, 15 64:6 65:16 69:6 70:2, 5, 21 73:21 74:6, 10 76:10 79:11, 18 80:18,20 81:1, 3, 12, 19 84:12, 15 85:7 87:4 88:5 89:8 90:6 91:1, 14, 18 95:5, 6 96:5 99:4 102:3, 7 104:5 105:4, 10,14 106:23 107:5 110:15 111:3, 17,21 115:10 116:15, 21 117:22 118:23 119:1, 22 120:17 121:3 122:14 125:2, 23 126:5 128:8their 9:5 16:23 18:14 44:17 49:15 66:18 100:20 116:9 121:5them 93:11 110:20them. 103:3 126:10, 19themselves. 41:15 61:13then 75:23 98:10There 8:9 56:18 81:2there, 100:3there. 49:20 89:13 91:16 92:4 101:3 113:22 114:4 115:9thereof 99:1thereof. 128:16

There's 103:21 115:11these 3:13 24:7 61:11 109:10thesis 114:14they 16:20 18:7 26:5 33:13 46:9 52:2 67:3 68:19 69:7 76:23 77:18 85:9 125:14they're 17:16 19:8 61:12 74:4 88:1thing 19:20 26:1 40:9 41:5 67:5 74:8 76:7 77:10,21 86:6 90:5, 12 117:3 123:19thing. 98:11 99:14 104:21things 20:4 22:12 27:12, 12 48:11 49:16 59:16, 17 61:6 71:23 93:22 94:21 95:21 98:19 103:7 105:22 112:3 119:22 124:5things. 20:12 28:18 52:4think 8:15, 17 10:17, 17, 20 14:13 15:8 19:2,7 20:3, 8, 16 22:3, 7, 12, 15 23:12, 16 25:15 26:3, 9, 14 28:14,22 29:12 30:5, 8,17 31:21 32:16,21 33:4, 11 34:1 38:5 39:7, 18, 23 40:12 41:1, 4, 7,10 43:14 47:13,20 48:1, 2 49:1,4, 18 50:2 51:17 59:15 60:22 61:16 66:10 68:14, 23 69:23

Meeting 153


70:4, 21 79:14 86:15, 15 88:12,13 90:2 91:14,20 92:15 93:15,16, 16 95:9, 9, 14,17 96:8, 11, 16,17 97:7 98:19 99:6, 11, 13, 16 101:12, 12 102:15, 16, 17, 21 103:6, 10, 22 105:5 107:20, 22 108:6 110:6 111:1 116:12, 19 119:12 120:4 121:8, 12, 15, 16 122:4 123:20 125:11 126:9think, 21:15thinking 3:11 65:22Thirty 78:13this 6:20 12:14 14:14 28:23 37:7 41:10 63:18 65:1, 2 69:10 75:9 90:5 119:10 124:17 125:21this. 24:1 65:17 84:9those 11:4 20:7 31:20 43:11 71:22 96:14though. 28:13thought 22:18 32:15 34:11 36:4 59:4, 10, 20 94:21 107:1 117:17thoughts 33:4 60:2thousand 114:5thousands 13:14three 11:21 26:5 45:12 47:4, 6, 9 53:11, 12 64:5 68:3 89:9 113:10 114:12

through 81:13 100:19throwing 114:4thrown 74:15 77:16thumb 17:3 18:10 57:16time 3:2 13:8 20:18 26:2, 5, 7,10 28:20 31:16 35:20 45:23 49:11 50:16, 18 51:1, 22 52:17 55:5, 7 56:13 57:7 62:14 63:15 74:13 77:16 80:7, 8 81:22 85:7 86:14 90:17 101:2 105:5 107:6 119:19time, 89:10time. 36:7 52:13 57:11 58:9 83:21 94:8, 14 117:9timely. 28:21times 125:23title 4:19 82:21,22 92:17, 20to 1:21 3:22, 23 4:2, 9 11:5 12:7 13:16 18:21 21:7 22:15 25:7 26:22 29:1, 9, 13 30:8 34:10 35:3 36:4 38:9, 23 39:14 40:12, 14 41:5, 6 43:12 44:6 48:13, 19 49:4 50:1, 17 52:1 56:2, 20 58:8 59:10 60:17 61:1, 16 64:10 66:23 68:22 70:8, 20 72:1, 9 73:5 83:22, 23 84:19 86:2 90:16 91:5,10 92:3, 14, 19,

20 94:10, 16 95:21 96:1 97:3 98:19, 22 99:1,11 100:21 101:21 102:2, 16 105:2, 15 107:12 108:15 110:18 112:6 114:2 117:6, 23 118:11 120:14 121:4 123:19 125:8to. 35:2 82:19 97:17today 16:23 28:14 95:10 105:20 110:13 123:6today. 3:3ton. 114:9tonight 91:20too. 48:12 57:6 92:12topic 11:21 31:14topics 34:14tops 101:21Total 7:23 13:17totaled 7:21totaling 15:22totally 100:10touched 106:16town 87:2track 57:20trade 107:23training 48:3, 4, 9,12, 15 50:5, 7 51:17 52:22 53:2, 9 54:2, 14 55:17 88:14, 17 90:1, 2 93:15, 17 99:13, 16 103:7 116:19, 20, 22, 22 121:9 122:4, 15,15, 17 123:3, 7,20, 21 124:3, 4 125:2 126:8training. 89:6 122:15 123:15transcript 8:3, 4 9:23 10:1, 10, 13

11:2, 6, 18 12:11 88:13 128:9transcript. 15:7travel 13:3 89:11 125:15treat 88:1 121:23treated 47:22 122:9tremendous 102:16trial 41:18 44:1 107:22tricked 51:6tried 30:3 105:23 108:1tried. 28:12trouble 102:19true 40:8 128:12true. 100:2trump 37:23 38:6trust 40:22try 18:13 48:19 56:2 65:9 66:10 70:20 83:23 112:16 119:15 124:9trying 52:14 53:23 59:12, 13 62:7, 12 63:19 64:10 65:9 121:20trying. 62:16turned 89:23 98:14 113:1, 2turns 113:10Tuscaloosa 75:20 77:19 106:8, 12Tuskegee 89:3tweak 43:22tweaked 33:15two 9:12, 20 13:18 26:1, 4, 9 32:3 33:4 44:3 52:12, 15 61:2 63:10 64:4 66:16 68:3 77:20 78:7 90:10 100:9 101:20, 22

Meeting 154


105:20 106:9, 10,13 113:13 114:12, 20two. 61:23two-day 123:7type 73:5 74:8 88:21 104:21 124:5types 104:14 109:17typically 6:18

UAB 115:8Uh-huh. 37:18ultimate 108:13unable 12:7 107:3uncomfortable 109:20unconstitutional 38:11, 18under 68:20understand 21:21 29:21 51:20 72:4 83:4understanding 86:11undertaking 102:16unfairness 99:5unfit 47:19, 23unfortunately 62:4 115:1unique 6:21unit 81:14United 71:7universities 16:3 28:8, 9University 28:19unknown 67:11unrepresented 61:12 67:7, 10until 111:15unwed 88:4, 4up 26:14 56:12 68:4 77:21 101:6up, 119:13up. 18:11 27:8update 12:20

updated 27:2 56:7updating 12:3upon 98:5upstairs 92:2up-to- 52:21us 15:20us. 14:8 26:11 29:6, 22 83:3 86:4 116:3 127:15use 41:1 51:3,19 53:18 56:11 80:7 117:4, 6usual 45:9Usually 28:17 67:22utilities 71:17utilize 53:16

< V >vacuum 107:15vague 86:16validation. 42:12various 6:17 29:20Venohr 11:23 16:6 27:1Venohr, 12:18Venorh 12:12verbatim 12:15versus 17:7 42:7very 106:3 112:12 117:5 125:17VI 36:2, 21 37:13 38:16 39:5 91:8victim 106:1view 19:20viewed 121:11visit 49:6, 15 77:17, 20visitation 44:7 47:6 48:20, 22 49:2, 5, 13, 19, 21 51:13 56:11 57:19 62:21 63:2 74:12

77:11 112:23 125:6visitation. 117:7visits 49:14visits. 49:14volume 61:19voluntary 112:6volunteer 89:10volunteered 34:20vote 31:7voted 91:8voters 36:22

< W >W-2 102:7wage 68:10 72:3 85:22 96:3wages 95:18 101:19wait 41:14 105:15walk 126:6walked 14:1 91:18walkers 9:21walks 119:12wallet 114:10, 12Walton 113:20want 3:4, 6 4:14,21 6:10, 21 8:16 14:11, 17 15:6 16:13 17:10 18:10, 21, 22 19:1, 3, 6 26:1 27:6, 21 29:8 30:7 31:16 36:22 42:3 43:5,9, 16 44:9, 19 45:8, 16 48:19 57:5, 14 58:18 60:17 80:7 94:6 96:1 99:11 101:18 102:15 105:2, 9 106:6 107:15 112:9 114:11 118:23 119:6, 7, 10 120:4 124:2

wanted 21:17 84:9 86:13 103:13 104:9 105:6, 15, 20, 22 123:19wants 19:21 63:1 100:20 110:2war 94:2warms 48:17Warren 112:15was 10:18 15:5 24:23 32:1 59:20 68:23 71:8 79:7 83:17 90:9was, 117:21was. 59:22Washington 78:20 92:18way 29:3, 12 34:23 35:8 59:17 69:21 70:22 72:8 95:15 108:4 110:1 116:6, 12 122:10 123:3 125:4way. 69:9Wayne 5:12We 3:2, 17 12:10 14:22 15:12, 18 19:2 22:12 23:7, 20 29:20 32:20, 21 35:13 43:17 48:11, 14 53:9,15 54:16 55:11 58:16, 20 63:8 66:2 81:15 83:10, 20 92:6, 7 93:5 105:5 106:16 110:19 111:20 119:12,19 120:21 122:22 126:18WebMD.com 19:17website 125:20

Meeting 155


126:12we'd 75:11week 61:20 65:2week. 60:12weekend 45:14,15weeks 78:7welcome 3:8 4:15, 21well 10:21 16:2 19:7 23:14 24:6,14 25:18 26:19 30:7 31:18 34:13 35:5 36:3,13 37:11 43:23 44:12 45:5 47:3 48:1 51:15 52:21 53:2, 4 56:12 60:3, 19 62:17 67:6 71:4 72:1, 15 76:13,19 77:12 78:23 81:6 83:12, 15 87:1 89:19, 21 95:23 97:13 98:1 99:3 106:19 112:17 116:21 122:14 125:3well, 79:10 96:23well. 39:18 57:16Weller 2:21 3:7 4:2, 11went 16:18, 21 59:1 75:19 78:10 80:14 82:2 106:12were 20:18 27:14 32:23We're 3:1 4:12 6:22 9:19 12:19 14:13 17:17 22:16 27:3, 7 28:6, 14 29:15 31:21 38:22, 23 39:1 47:14 53:14, 23 54:19 55:9, 10, 21 56:1 60:3 61:21 64:10, 20 69:12

71:21 77:5 91:21 93:3, 4, 8,12, 13 99:8 107:20 110:6, 18,22 111:1, 3 116:23 126:3Westlaw 80:4we've 13:12 19:3 20:4 29:1 35:10 48:3 49:4,12, 17, 21 50:5,16 51:23 56:13 58:7 60:20 61:11, 15, 16 74:7 86:20 103:7 108:20 119:11 127:5what 26:7 27:23 33:6 38:22 67:6,19 91:20 98:2 122:7whatever 25:13 74:13 123:3when 54:15 113:5where 40:8 62:9 80:21 102:21 125:3whether 37:1 52:6 90:21which 32:13 112:3while 76:22while. 48:4who 50:9 100:7whole 19:1 34:3whole. 49:22why 118:7why. 108:9wife 32:2 71:9will 45:23 51:11 93:10 123:11willing 77:8win 108:15winner 108:12, 14wisdom 120:20wish 46:15 52:18wishes 21:5with 4:23 12:20 14:7 15:11

18:13 25:19 33:3 60:9 64:16 74:11 87:20 93:22 103:5 109:5 112:2with. 31:21 94:4withholding 81:10, 15, 19, 21 83:19 84:1 85:22 119:21withholding. 82:10without 106:2woefully 45:3woman 74:7 117:18women 74:9wonder 37:22 91:19wondered 66:2wonderful 3:17 4:7, 8 41:5 61:2 74:2Wonderful. 3:15 35:6 55:13 56:4 123:13wondering 69:1won't 56:10 72:19word 49:5, 12, 19 74:18 117:4, 6words 112:17 119:7 120:19 121:20words. 116:18work 14:19 30:17 41:8 65:9 91:6 96:16 102:12 119:8 120:1, 14 123:2 125:7, 20 126:9,22worked 3:10 34:13 127:3workers 53:3 61:23working 3:10 4:10 43:23 124:17worksheet 47:1

world 50:14 52:2 100:11world. 50:21worry. 101:2worse 74:16, 17worst 108:20would 21:9 22:22 27:20 32:8 37:22 38:5 57:20 66:22 90:12 103:6 107:21 116:19wouldn't 73:15wreck 108:22write 66:14 82:5,11, 13written 17:2 100:6wrong 78:23 84:2wrong. 79:1wrote 78:21

< Y >y'all 35:16, 17 53:2 65:15 98:3,3 127:20Yeah 42:18 46:12 101:12 118:15Yeah. 42:18 48:1 67:16 104:12 111:9 118:4 120:3year 12:2, 19 45:14 55:11 88:9 113:4 120:11year. 16:8 120:9years 3:11 5:21 7:14, 20, 20, 22,23 9:10 12:2 14:21, 21, 22 19:3 26:5 27:6,15 28:2 33:6 34:12 53:11 63:19 66:16 70:3 71:10, 12 74:9 76:6 80:13 89:8, 9 93:20

Meeting 156


101:22 108:1 113:11, 11, 14 114:19 116:14 124:17years. 5:19 20:5 21:20 48:7 53:12 64:5 112:19yes, 115:1Yes. 9:17 18:16 25:17 43:9 80:1yesterday 16:18yet. 5:9you 3:19 8:22 20:17 26:13 27:11 38:7 42:11, 21 53:13 54:2 57:1 60:8 61:7 64:21 65:6 68:17, 18 73:6 77:12 86:19 88:23 91:19 92:1 93:18 94:1 95:4 97:8 98:18 102:8 103:1, 14 108:8, 22 110:6 121:16 124:13you. 4:10 6:22 9:21, 22 13:23 40:23 69:11 75:17 86:18 119:17 124:19young 76:8 89:14, 21 106:13younger 92:13your 67:1 71:15 73:1 80:23 101:19 103:22 110:10 116:2you're 47:21 86:22 94:15 110:7

< Z >zero 45:20zero, 45:19zeroing 34:13

Meeting 1


WORD LIST

< $ >$10,000 (1)$1000 (3)$1100 (1)$15,000 (1)$20,000 (1)$2500 (1)$35,000 (1)$40,000 (1)$495. (1)$500 (1)$60,000 (1)$7000 (1)$95 (1)

< . >. (2)

< 0 >0031 (1)04 (1)05 (1)06 (1)08. (1)

< 1 >1 (3)1. (2)10 (5)1040 (2)1099 (3)1099s (1)11:50 (1)1100 (1)12 (2)13 (1)135 (1)15 (3)16 (1)1975-'76 (1)1976 (1)1980 (3)19th (1)1st (2)

< 2 >20 (2)

20,000 (4)20,000. (1)2002 (2)2005 (1)2006 (2)2007 (1)2009 (3)2010 (1)2010, (1)2011 (2)2012 (1)2013 (7)2013. (2)2014 (3)20th (1)21 (1)21,000 (1)21st (1)23 (1)240,000 (1)25th. (1)26 (1)27 (2)29 (1)2nd (2)

< 3 >3.21 (1)3.69 (2)30 (4)300 (1)30-3-151 (1)32 (16)32. (3)327 (1)34 (2)34,000 (1)35 (3)36104 (1)

< 4 >40,000 (5)40,000. (1)42 (1)45 (1)48 (1)

< 5 >50 (2)

58 (1)

< 6 >60 (2)66 (1)67 (4)

< 7 >70 (1)76 (1)7th (5)

< 8 >8 (2)8. (2)800 (1)856670 (1)87 (1)8th (1)

< 9 >9 (2)90 (1)93 (1)93. (1)99.9 (1)

< A >a (58)able (6)abolishing (1)about (5)about. (4)above (1)Absolutely (3)Absolutely. (9)accept (2)accepting (1)accepts. (1)access (1)account (2)accurate (1)ACD (2)ACD. (1)Act (3)action (1)action. (1)actions (1)activities. (1)

acts. (1)actual (1)ad (1)add (2)added (1)addition (2)additional (1)address (15)addressed (5)addressing (2)adequate (1)adjourn (3)adjustments (1)administrative (1)admitted (1)adopt (1)Adopted (1)adult (1)advantage (2)adversarial (5)adversarial. (1)adversely (1)advice (2)ADVISORY (3)advocating (1)affair (1)affairs (1)affect (1)affidavit (3)affirmed (1)afford (2)Affordable (1)after (1)again, (1)again. (1)age (1)agency (1)agenda (2)ages (1)aggressive (1)ago (7)ago, (1)agree (9)agree. (2)agreed (1)agreement (6)agreements (1)ahead (3)ahead. (2)

Meeting 2


Air (2)Al.Civ.App (1)ALABAMA (42)Alabama. (4)AlabamaLegalHelp.org (1)Alabama's (1)Alex (6)all (8)all, (1)all. (1)alleged (1)alleviate (2)alleviated (1)allow (1)allowable (1)allowance (2)allowed (2)allows (1)almost (1)already (1)Also (5)also. (1)alternative (2)alternative. (1)altogether (1)am (3)am. (3)amendment (10)amendments (1)amount (10)an (9)analyses (1)analysis (6)And (44)And, (3)Angela (7)Anniston (2)another (4)answer (2)anticipated (1)any (5)anybody (7)anything (2)anything. (3)anyway (3)anyway. (1)AOC (15)appeal (2)

appealed (1)Appeals (2)appear (1)appellate (6)apples (1)applicable (1)applied (1)apply (1)applying (1)appointed (4)appointing (1)appreciate (6)approach (2)approval (1)approve (2)approved (2)April (1)are (8)are, (1)are. (2)area (6)area. (1)areas (4)arena (1)aren't. (1)Arkansas (4)around. (2)arranged (1)arrangement (3)as (11)ascertain (1)ask (1)asked (9)asking (3)asks (1)aspect (1)aspects (1)assemble (1)assembled (1)assessment (1)assigned (2)assist (2)assistance. (1)assistant (2)Associate (1)Association (4)Association. (1)assume (2)assuming (1)

assumption (1)assurance (1)at (7)at. (1)attached (1)attend (2)attention (3)Attorney (8)attorney. (4)attorneys (11)attorney's (1)attorneys, (1)attorneys. (3)Aubrey (4)Aubrey, (1)Aubrey. (1)Auburn (1)audience. (1)August (4)Aunt (1)Autauga (1)authority (3)available (3)Avenue (1)award (3)aware (4)

back (34)background (2)backside (1)bad (3)bad. (1)Bailey (207)balance (1)balancing (1)Baldwin (1)ball (1)Baptist (1)Bar (1)based (8)basic (1)Basically (8)be (18)beard. (1)bears (1)because (1)becoming (1)bed (1)

been (5)before (2)beginning (1)behalf (1)believe (8)Bell (77)Bell. (1)bench (1)bench. (2)benefit (2)best (3)better (6)better. (1)between (1)beyond (2)bid (2)big (1)bigger (1)biggest (2)bill (1)bill. (2)billing (2)Billy (7)Billy. (1)Birmingham (3)births. (1)bit (9)bit. (1)blond-headed (1)Board (2)boat (1)Bob (20)Bob, (1)Bob. (1)borne (1)borrow (1)boss (1)boss. (1)both (3)both. (1)bothers (1)box (1)box. (1)boy (1)Boyd (6)Brasfield. (2)breaks (1)breathe (3)brief (2)

Meeting 3


briefcase (1)bring (18)bringing (4)broad (1)broken (1)brought (7)brush (1)budget (2)Building (1)builds (1)built (1)bunch (1)burden (6)Bush (24)business (2)busy (1)But (8)But, (1)buy (3)buys (1)by (2)bylines (1)

< C >calculate (3)calculated. (1)calculation (2)calculations (2)calendar (1)call (2)call. (1)called (3)calling (1)calls (2)came (3)Campbell (13)can (6)can. (1)candidate (1)can't (1)car (2)careers (1)careful (1)carries (1)carry (1)cart (1)Carter (6)case (39)case. (3)

cases (15)cases. (1)cause (1)causes (1)causing (1)center (3)center. (2)central (3)cents (1)ceremony (1)certain (1)certainly (12)Certified (4)certify (4)cetera (3)chair (2)chair. (1)Chairman (2)challenge (6)challenges (1)chance (1)change (5)changed (6)changed. (2)changes (2)Channel (6)charge (3)charged (1)charters (1)chasing (1)cheap. (1)cheat (1)cheating (1)check (8)check. (1)Chief (2)CHILD (101)child. (1)children (16)children, (1)children. (3)child's (1)choose (1)chooses (1)chose (1)churches (1)Circuit (12)circuits (1)cite (1)

cites (1)citizen (2)citizens (1)citizens. (1)Civil (3)civility (1)clarify (1)Clark (27)clear (1)clear. (1)clearer (2)clearly (2)clearly. (1)Clerk (4)Clerk. (1)clerks (1)Clerk's (2)client (1)client. (1)clients (1)cloudy (1)Co (1)Co-Chairman (1)code (1)coffee (1)Collaborative (4)collect (2)collected (1)collections (1)college (3)colleges (1)come (23)comes (8)coming (10)comment (5)comment. (1)comments (15)comments, (1)commission (1)commission. (1)commissioned (1)Commissioner (1)commit (1)commitment (1)committed (2)COMMITTEE (48)committee, (1)

committee. (2)Committee: (1)committees (3)communicating (1)communication (1)companies (2)comparison. (1)comparisons (1)compel (1)compelled (1)compelled. (1)compelling (1)competing (1)complement (1)completed (1)completely (2)complex (2)complying (1)computer-printed (1)concentrate (1)concept (1)concern (2)concerned (1)concerning (1)concerns (2)concerted (1)concise (1)concluded (1)condition (1)conducted (1)conferences (1)confidentiality (1)conflict (2)confusion (1)consensus (1)consequences (1)consider (3)consideration (4)consideration. (1)considered (1)considered. (1)consistency (5)consistent (1)consistently (1)constantly (1)

Meeting 4


constitution (1)constitution. (1)constitutional (4)contact (4)contacted (2)contain (1)contempt (10)contempt. (1)content (1)contest (1)contested. (1)continuances (2)continue (1)continued (1)continues (1)contract (2)contribute (1)convened (1)convinced (1)coordinate (1)co-parent. (1)co-parenting (1)Co-parenting. (1)copies (2)copy (6)correct (8)Correct. (2)correction (4)corrections (3)corrections, (1)corresponds (1)cost (7)cost. (1)costs (3)could (5)could. (1)Counsel (5)counsel. (1)countable (1)counties (7)counties. (2)country (2)counts (1)County (23)County, (1)County. (5)couple (3)course (3)Court (73)

court. (4)courtroom (2)courtrooms (2)courts (14)court's (1)courts, (1)cover (6)coverage (2)covered (1)covering (1)create (2)creating (2)creative (1)criminal (1)criteria (1)crop (1)CS41 (4)CS42 (2)CSR (1)current (1)currently (2)custodial (13)custody (13)custody, (1)custody. (3)cut (1)cycle (1)

< D >D.C (3)D.C. (1)dad. (1)data (7)data. (2)date (3)daughter (1)Davis (43)day (6)day. (2)daycare (1)days (10)days. (1)dead (1)deadline (1)deal (10)dealing (8)deals (1)dealt (2)debtor (1)

debtor's (1)decide (3)decide. (1)decided (1)decided. (1)decision (3)decisions (8)decisions. (1)decrees (1)deductible (1)deduction (4)deductions (2)deductions. (1)deer-in-the-headlight (1)default (1)defense (2)deficient (1)defined (2)defines (1)definition (1)definition, (1)Delaware (1)delay (6)delays (1)delays. (1)Department (4)departments (1)departments. (1)dependents (1)depending (3)deposed (1)deposited (1)description (1)descriptions (1)deserve (1)deserve. (1)destroyed (1)determine (1)determines (1)develop (1)developed (1)development (1)deviate (6)deviating (1)deviation (1)Dexter (1)DHR (37)DHR's (3)

dictate (1)dictated (1)did (1)did. (5)didn't (3)didn't. (1)difference (3)different (8)different. (1)difficult (4)direct (1)directed (1)direction (6)direction. (2)directly (4)Director (4)disadvantage (1)disagree (2)disbursement (2)discombobulated. (1)discovery (2)discovery. (2)discretion (5)discriminate (2)discuss (3)discussed (2)discussed. (1)discussing (1)discussion (14)discussions (1)dismissal (1)dispute (1)disrespect (1)District (6)divided (1)dividend (1)Division (3)division. (1)divorce (6)divorced (1)divorces (1)do (8)do, (1)do. (6)docket (5)dockets (1)documentation (9)

Meeting 5


documentation. (1)documents (2)documents. (1)does. (2)doesn't (4)dog (1)doing (19)doing. (2)dollars. (2)domestic (3)done (2)done. (2)don't (7)don't. (2)down. (1)downturn (1)DR (2)drafted (1)draw (1)Drees (10)drive (4)drive. (1)driving (1)drugs (1)due (2)duly (1)

< E >E (1)earlier (2)early (1)earned (1)earnings (1)easy (1)echo (2)economic (5)economics (6)economist (1)economy (1)educate (1)education (1)effect (4)effective (3)efficient (1)efforts. (1)e-filing (1)eight (2)either (6)

either. (2)elected (1)Elmore (3)else. (2)e-mail (4)e-mail. (1)emotion. (1)emotional (4)emotional. (1)emotions (2)emotions. (1)emphasis (1)employee (2)employer (2)employment (3)encourage (1)end (1)end. (2)enforcement (4)enjoyed (1)enough (2)enters (1)entertain (2)entire (3)entry (1)equally, (1)equity (1)Especially (1)Essick (1)establish (1)established (2)esteemed (1)estimate. (1)et (3)even (2)eventually (2)every (3)everybody (13)everybody. (1)everybody's (1)everyone (2)everywhere. (2)evicted (1)evidence (1)evidence. (1)evidently (1)exact (1)exactly (6)Exactly. (1)

example (4)example, (1)exceed (1)excellent (2)exclusively (1)excuse (1)exemption. (1)exemptions (1)Exhibit (1)ex-husband (1)exist (1)exist. (1)existence (1)existing (1)Exp (1)expand (1)expect (1)expecting (1)expense (3)expenses (4)experience (1)experience. (1)experiencing (1)expert. (1)expertise (1)experts (1)explaining (1)explains (1)expressed (1)ex-spouse (2)ex-spouse, (1)ex-spouse. (2)extensive (1)extra (1)extreme. (1)

< F >face (3)faces (1)facing (1)fact (4)fact. (1)facts (2)failed (1)fails (1)failure (2)fair (3)fair. (1)fairly (2)

families (1)Family (33)far (3)fast (1)father (1)fatherhood (1)fault (1)favor (2)Faye (9)Faye. (1)February (7)federal (27)Feds (3)Feds, (1)feel (2)fees (1)few (1)field (3)field. (2)fight (1)figure (2)file (3)file. (1)filed (1)filed. (1)files (3)filing (3)filings (1)fill (2)finally (1)Finance (2)financial (4)find (7)finding (2)fine (2)Finley (1)first (13)first. (2)fit (5)fit. (1)fits (1)five (7)fix (1)flexibility (4)floor (1)Florida (1)focus (2)focusing (1)folks (1)

Meeting 6


folks. (1)follow (6)following (3)foot (1)for (20)for. (1)Force (6)forced (1)forces (1)Ford (32)Ford. (1)foregoing (2)forge (1)form (4)former (3)forms (5)forms. (1)formulate, (1)Fort (1)fortunate (1)forum (1)forward (5)fought (1)found (2)four (11)four. (1)free (2)Freedom (1)Friday, (1)friend (1)friendly (1)friendly. (1)from (12)front (2)frustrations (1)full (1)fully (1)function (1)fund (1)funding (15)funding. (2)funneled (1)furnished (1)further (5)future (1)

< G >gallon (2)gambling (2)

gas (5)geared (2)general (2)gentleman (4)Georgia (1)get (7)getting (12)gifts (3)give (21)given (4)giving (1)glad (7)gladly (1)global (2)globally (1)go (39)go. (1)goal (1)goes (12)going (59)gonna (1)Good (33)good. (1)Gordon (9)got (3)got. (1)government (4)governmental (1)governor (1)grade (1)graduates (1)Grandma (1)grant (1)granted (2)great (14)great. (1)greatly (1)gripe (2)gross (5)gross. (1)grounds (1)group (3)group. (1)grow (1)grown (1)guardian (1)guardianships (1)guess (1)guesstimate (1)

guesstimates (1)guest (1)guests (1)guideline (2)GUIDELINES (30)guidelines, (1)Guidelines. (5)guy (3)guy. (2)

< H >had (4)had. (1)half (2)half. (1)hammer (1)Hampshire (1)hand (2)hand. (1)handbook (1)handed (1)handle (3)happen (3)happen. (1)happened (2)happens (1)happier (1)happy (4)hard (1)harder (2)has (5)hate (1)have (13)have. (1)he (4)head (1)head. (1)heading (1)health (21)Healthcare (5)healthcare. (1)hear (11)heard (7)hearing (7)hearing. (1)heart (1)Heflin-Torbert (1)held (2)help (8)

helped (2)helpful (4)her (6)her. (3)here (2)here. (7)hereto (1)he's (2)Hey (2)hey, (1)hide (1)hiding (1)high (2)higher (2)highest (1)him. (3)hindered (1)hire (3)hired (1)hit (2)hold (1)holding (1)Home (2)honest (1)honestly (1)Honor (1)hoops (1)Hope (2)hoped (1)Hopefully (4)hopefully, (1)hoping (3)horse (1)hours (1)house (2)house. (1)how (1)how, (1)human (1)hundred (1)husband (1)

I (37)I. (1)I'd (2)idea (4)idea. (3)ideal (1)

Meeting 7


identified (1)identify (1)if (12)ignorance (1)III-D (1)I'll (1)illegal (1)I'm (11)immediately (2)impact (2)impatient (1)imperative (1)implemented (1)implied (2)importance (1)important (4)impute (1)in (41)in. (2)incarcerated (1)include (3)included (2)includes (1)including (4)inclusive (1)income (53)income, (1)income. (4)incomes. (1)incorrect (1)Indiana (3)indicated (2)individual (1)industries (1)industry (2)information (9)information. (1)inheritance (1)initiate (1)initiative (1)initiatives (1)injustices (1)in-person (1)input (3)Insitute (1)instance. (1)Institute. (1)institution (1)institution, (1)

instructions (1)insurance (27)insure (1)intended (1)intent (5)intent. (1)interest (6)interested (4)interesting. (1)internal (2)interpret (1)interstate (1)intervention (1)into (4)introduce (7)involved (12)involved. (1)involvement (1)involves (1)involving (1)Iowa (1)IRS (2)is (30)is. (2)isn't (2)issue (35)issue. (5)issued. (1)issues (23)issues. (3)it (12)it, (1)it. (10)itemized (1)its (3)it's (4)IV-D (5)I've (4)

< J >Jackson (7)jail (7)Jane (10)Jane. (1)January (3)Jefferson (3)Jennifer (6)Jennifer. (1)Jersey (1)

Jim (2)Jim, (1)job (12)job. (1)jobs (3)join (1)join. (1)joining (1)joint (9)Jr (1)Judge (167)judge. (1)judges (33)judge's (3)judges. (5)judgment (1)Judicial (1)Judith (1)Julia (8)Julie (10)Julie. (1)July (2)jump (2)junior (1)just (10)Justice (21)Justices (3)juvenile (2)

< K >Keegan (1)keep (7)Kenneth (2)kept (2)kicked (1)kidding. (1)kids (9)kids. (3)Kimberly (1)Kimbrough (5)kin (1)kind (8)knew (1)know (116)know, (10)know. (8)knowledge (2)knowledgeable. (1)

< L >label (1)lack (4)ladies (1)lady (4)laid (3)Landry (25)language (1)language. (1)Lanier (3)Lanier, (2)Large (6)last (3)last. (1)lasted (1)late. (1)lately (1)later (1)later. (1)Law (29)law. (4)laws (2)lawyer (4)lawyers (13)layperson (1)lays (2)leaps (1)learn (1)leave (2)Legal (9)legislation (2)legislative (2)legislators (3)legislature (1)length (1)less-than (1)let's (2)letter (8)level (6)level. (3)levels (2)levels. (1)Lexis (1)liaison (1)licensed (1)lie (5)life (2)life. (1)

Meeting 8


lifestyle (2)lifetime (1)light (1)like (4)Limestone (1)limit (1)limitations (2)limited (3)limits (1)line (4)line. (1)lines (2)list (5)list. (1)listen (2)litems, (1)litigant (8)litigants (3)litigants, (1)litigants. (1)litigation (3)littered (1)little (15)live (3)lives (1)living (2)Lloyd (4)local (1)locations. (1)long (7)longer (1)Look (34)looked (7)looking (9)looks (1)lose (1)losing (2)lost (2)lot (43)lot. (1)lots (1)love (1)love. (1)loved (1)low (2)lowered (3)Lyn (4)

< M >

Macon (2)Macy's (1)Maddox (23)Maddox. (1)Madison (5)mail (3)mailed (2)main (2)maintained (2)Maintaining (1)major (3)majority (2)majority. (1)make (2)make-up (1)making (17)man (1)man. (2)Manager (1)mandate (3)mandated (4)mandatory (4)manner (1)man's (1)mantle (1)many (2)March (3)Mark (1)marriage (1)married (2)married. (1)marrying (1)Mary (3)Massachusetts (3)matter (5)matter. (2)may (2)maybe (1)McCalla (1)McKINNEY (1)me (2)me. (3)mean (12)mean, (1)meaningful. (1)means (3)meant (4)mechanism (2)

mediate (1)mediated (3)mediation (4)medical (1)medicals (1)medication (1)meet (4)MEETING (20)meeting. (2)meetings (2)meetings. (1)Melissa (4)member (6)members (12)memory (3)men (1)mention (4)mentioned (5)mentioned. (1)merits. (1)mess (1)message (1)Messick (3)met (1)Mgr (1)Michael (3)Michael. (2)might (1)Mike (5)Mike. (2)mileage. (1)miles (2)military (6)million (1)million. (1)millions (1)mind (2)mind. (2)mindful (3)mine (2)mine. (1)minimal (1)minimum (3)minute (1)minutes (1)minutes. (1)missed (1)misstate (1)Mobile (4)

model (1)modification (1)modification, (1)modifications (1)modify (1)module (1)modules (1)mom (1)moment (1)money (18)money. (2)Montgomery (2)Montgomery. (1)month (14)month. (4)months (1)months. (1)Moore (8)more (3)morning (1)mother (2)motion (11)motion, (2)move (2)Move. (1)moved (1)moved. (1)moving (2)much (3)much. (5)my (7)

< N >name (11)named (1)National (2)natural (1)necessarily (1)necessary (3)necessary. (2)need (41)need. (2)needed (1)needs (9)negotiate (2)neither (3)Nelson (26)net (6)never (7)

Meeting 9


new (24)news (1)news. (1)nice (1)nightmare (1)nightmare. (1)nisi (1)no (5)no, (1)No. (3)non (1)non-adversarial (1)noncustodial (10)noncustodial, (1)noncustodial's (1)non-employment (1)nonexistent. (1)non-factor. (1)non-wage (2)nor (2)normally (1)nose, (1)not (14)not. (2)Notary (1)note (3)noted (1)notes. (2)November (1)now (3)now, (1)now. (8)number (10)numbers (1)numbers. (2)nurse (1)nursing (1)

< O >oath (1)obtain (1)Obviously (3)occurring (1)OCSE (1)Of (44)of. (1)

off (1)offer (1)offered (1)office (10)office. (1)Offices (1)Oh (6)Okay (10)Okay. (8)old (2)omitted (1)on (12)onboard (1)once (4)one (7)one- (1)one-day (1)one-half (1)one-on-one (4)ones (1)only (3)on-one (1)open (3)operating (1)opinion (1)opinion. (1)opportunities (2)opportunity (11)Opposed (4)opposing (1)opt (2)option (3)or (19)order (20)order. (3)ordered (4)ordered. (1)orders (3)ore (7)Organization (3)Organization. (2)organizational (1)orientation (1)orientation. (1)original (3)other (10)other. (3)ought (6)our (19)

ourselves. (1)out (3)out. (3)outcome (2)out-of-pocket (1)outside (5)over (3)over. (1)overall (3)overall. (1)overcome (2)overnight (1)own (1)own. (1)

p.m. (1)page (1)pages (2)paid (5)paid. (1)painted (1)Palmer (24)Palmer, (1)panel (1)panhandle (2)papers (1)paperwork (2)parent (25)parent. (1)parenting (15)Parents (20)parents. (3)part (4)part. (1)participated (1)particular (17)particularly (1)parties (12)parties, (1)parties. (2)parts (1)party (12)party. (2)Paschal (6)passed (5)passing (1)paternity (1)pay (22)

paycheck (1)paying (7)payment (7)payroll (1)pediatric (1)Penalty (2)Penny (5)Penny. (1)Pensacola (1)people (31)people. (3)people's (1)percent (8)percent. (1)perhaps (1)perimeter (1)period. (1)periods (1)perking (1)permanent (1)permission (1)perpetually (1)Perry (2)person (6)person. (2)persons (2)perspective (4)petition (1)Ph.D. (1)phone (1)physical (2)physically (1)pick (1)picture (1)pitch (1)place (2)placement (2)placement. (1)places (1)plans (1)playing (1)pleading (1)please (10)pleasure (3)plus (3)pocket (2)pockets (1)point (15)point, (1)

Meeting 10


point. (6)pointed (1)pointing (1)points (2)points. (1)Polemeni (49)policy (1)population (1)portfolio (1)portion (1)posed (1)position (1)position. (1)positions (1)positive (1)possible (2)possible. (1)possibly (4)post-minority (1)power (1)powers (1)practical (2)practice (2)practiced (3)practicing (1)preamble (1)precedent (1)predecessor (1)prefer (1)preliminary (1)premium (1)premium. (2)present (2)Present: (1)presentation (2)presented (1)presumed (2)presumption (2)presumption. (1)pretty (4)previous (1)price (2)primarily (2)primary (1)principally (1)principle. (1)prior (3)prison (1)private (2)

pro (14)probably (11)probate (1)probate, (1)problem (12)problem. (1)problems (3)procedure (3)proceeding (3)proceeding. (2)proceedings (4)process (9)process. (2)produced (2)produced. (1)productive (1)Program (7)program. (1)programs (1)progress. (1)property (3)proposed (2)prove (2)provide (13)provided (2)providing (1)provision (2)psychologists (1)psychology (1)Public (16)public. (1)pull (1)purchase (1)purpose (2)purpose. (1)pursuant (1)push (1)put (15)puts (1)putting (2)

< Q >quality (1)quash (1)question (8)question, (2)question. (4)questions (2)quick (2)

quickly (3)quiet. (1)quit. (1)quite (5)

< R >raise (2)random (1)range (1)rata (2)rather (2)reach (1)read (4)read. (1)reading (2)real (7)realignment (1)realize (1)really (20)reason (3)rebuttal (2)receipts (3)receive (1)received (5)receiving (5)recognize (2)recognized (1)recommend (6)recommendation (3)recommends (1)reconsider (1)reconsideration (2)reconsideration. (1)Record (3)records (1)redid (5)redoing (3)reduced (1)reduction (2)referee (1)refereeing (1)reference (2)referred (1)referring (1)reform (1)refresh (3)

refuses (1)refusing (2)regarding (3)regional (1)registered (1)reimburse (1)reimbursement (1)rein (1)related (3)relates (5)relating (1)relations (1)Relations. (1)relationship (6)relationships (1)remember (1)Rena (5)repeat (1)repeatedly (1)report (9)reported (1)Reporter (3)Reporter. (1)Reporting (2)represent (2)representative (1)representatives (1)represented (7)representing (1)request (3)require (4)required (3)required, (1)requirement (2)requirements (1)requires (5)requiring (3)Reroute (1)research (4)Researching (1)reside (1)resident (1)resolution. (1)resolved (2)resolved. (1)resolving (1)resource (1)

Meeting 11


resources (1)respect (3)respectful (1)respective (1)respond (1)responded. (2)response. (8)responses (1)responsibility (2)responsibility. (1)responsible (3)result (5)results (2)retired (2)retired. (1)retirement (4)retirement, (1)retirement. (1)return (1)return. (1)returns (1)reversed (2)review (8)revise (1)revisit (3)rid (3)right (55)right. (45)rightfully (1)rightly (1)Rights (4)road (1)Rogers (1)role (1)roll (1)room (5)room, (1)root (1)Roy (2)Rule (23)rules (1)ruling (1)run (3)running (1)

< S >S (1)said, (1)said. (3)

sales (1)same (2)Santiago (3)Santiago. (1)sat (1)satisfactory (1)save (4)saw (1)say (8)say, (2)saying (4)saying. (1)says (20)scale, (1)schedule (14)schedule. (1)scheduled (2)schedules (2)school (4)school. (1)scope (1)se (12)Second (6)Second. (4)secondary (1)seconded (1)Section (1)securities (1)Security (1)see (19)seen (3)select (2)selected (1)self- (1)self-employed (2)self-employment (1)self-represented (2)semester (1)senators (1)send (2)sense (1)sensitive (4)sensitive, (1)sent (7)separate (1)separately (1)September. (1)

serious (1)serve (6)served (4)service (3)services (3)Services. (1)session (2)set (5)setting (1)settlement. (1)seven (4)several (1)share (11)share. (2)Shared (10)sharing (1)she (7)sheet (2)Shelby (2)She's (1)shoes (1)should (3)should. (1)show (2)shuffle. (1)side (5)side. (1)sides (2)sign (5)signed (1)significance. (1)sign-in (1)sign-up (1)Similar (1)since (2)single (5)sir (7)sir. (8)sit (3)site (3)sitting (3)situation (5)situation. (1)six (4)sleeves (1)slides (1)small (1)smallest (1)Smith (1)

So (5)so. (2)social (2)society (1)soften (1)solution (2)solutions (1)solve (1)some (10)somebody (6)somehow (1)someone (2)something (8)somewhat (1)son. (1)sooner (1)sorry (4)sorry. (3)sort (9)sound (1)sounds (3)source (3)sources (3)speak (4)speak. (1)speaker (1)speaking (3)special (2)specialized (1)specific (6)specifically (4)spend (3)spent (2)spirit (1)split (1)spouse (2)staff (3)stand (1)standard (2)standing (4)stands. (1)start (4)started (5)starting (5)starts (3)STATE (36)state. (2)stated (2)statement (3)

Meeting 12


statements (1)states (9)statewide (5)statewide. (1)status (2)statute (3)statutes (1)stay (1)stepfather (1)stockbroker (1)stop (2)stories (1)story (3)straight (2)straight. (1)street (2)strongly (1)struggling (1)Stuart (22)Stuart's (1)stubs (1)stubs. (1)student (1)studies (4)study (10)study. (1)subcommittee (7)subcommittee. (1)subcommittees (1)subcommittees, (1)submitted (3)subpoenaed (2)substance (2)substantiate (1)success (1)suffering (1)suggest (3)suggesting (1)suggestion (4)suggestions (2)suicide (1)Sullivan (1)sum (1)summer (1)supervisor (1)supplements (1)

SUPPORT (83)support. (4)supporting (1)supports (1)suppose (3)supposed (1)Supreme (10)sure (15)Sure. (5)system (9)system. (1)

< T >tail (1)take (13)taken (4)takes (3)talk (10)talked (9)talking (14)tall (1)task (5)tasks. (1)taught (4)tax (20)tax. (1)taxable (1)taxes (4)taxes. (1)tax-free (1)team (1)teeth (1)telecom (1)tell (7)tells (1)temporarily (1)tennis (2)tenus (5)tenus. (4)Ten-year-old (1)term (2)term. (1)terminology (1)terms (11)territory (3)testify (1)testimony (2)texts (1)Thank (19)

Thanks (3)that (41)that, (1)that. (23)That's (10)the (125)their (9)them (2)them. (3)themselves. (2)then (2)There (3)there, (1)there. (8)thereof (1)thereof. (1)There's (2)these (4)thesis (1)they (13)they're (5)thing (14)thing. (3)things (19)things. (3)think (115)think, (1)thinking (2)Thirty (1)this (15)this. (3)those (6)though. (1)thought (10)thoughts (2)thousand (1)thousands (1)three (13)through (2)throwing (1)thrown (2)thumb (3)time (35)time, (1)time. (8)timely. (1)times (1)title (5)to (88)

to. (3)today (6)today. (1)ton. (1)tonight (1)too. (3)topic (2)topics (1)tops (1)Total (2)totaled (1)totaling (1)totally (1)touched (1)town (1)track (1)trade (1)training (40)training. (3)transcript (12)transcript. (1)travel (3)treat (2)treated (2)tremendous (1)trial (3)tricked (1)tried (3)tried. (1)trouble (1)true (2)true. (1)trump (2)trust (1)try (10)trying (10)trying. (1)turned (4)turns (1)Tuscaloosa (4)Tuskegee (1)tweak (1)tweaked (1)two (29)two. (1)two-day (1)type (5)types (2)typically (1)

Meeting 13


UAB (1)Uh-huh. (1)ultimate (1)unable (2)uncomfortable (1)unconstitutional (2)under (1)understand (5)understanding (1)undertaking (1)unfairness (1)unfit (2)unfortunately (2)unique (1)unit (1)United (1)universities (3)University (1)unknown (1)unrepresented (3)until (1)unwed (2)up (5)up, (1)up. (2)update (1)updated (2)updating (1)upon (1)upstairs (1)up-to- (1)us (1)us. (8)use (8)usual (1)Usually (2)utilities (1)utilize (1)

< V >vacuum (1)vague (1)validation. (1)

various (2)Venohr (3)Venohr, (1)Venorh (1)verbatim (1)versus (2)very (4)VI (6)victim (1)view (1)viewed (1)visit (4)visitation (18)visitation. (1)visits (1)visits. (1)volume (1)voluntary (1)volunteer (1)volunteered (1)vote (1)voted (1)voters (1)

< W >W-2 (1)wage (4)wages (2)wait (2)walk (1)walked (2)walkers (1)walks (1)wallet (2)Walton (1)want (56)wanted (10)wants (4)war (1)warms (1)Warren (1)was (10)was, (1)was. (1)Washington (2)way (16)way. (1)Wayne (1)We (40)

WebMD.com (1)website (2)we'd (1)week (2)week. (1)weekend (2)weeks (1)welcome (3)well (51)well, (2)well. (2)Weller (4)went (8)were (3)We're (47)Westlaw (1)we've (25)what (9)whatever (3)when (2)where (5)whether (3)which (2)while (1)while. (1)who (2)whole (2)whole. (1)why (1)why. (1)wife (2)will (4)willing (1)win (1)winner (2)wisdom (1)wish (2)wishes (1)with (15)with. (2)withholding (8)withholding. (1)without (1)woefully (1)woman (2)women (1)wonder (2)wondered (1)wonderful (6)

Wonderful. (5)wondering (1)won't (2)word (6)words (4)words. (1)work (15)worked (3)workers (2)working (4)worksheet (1)world (3)world. (1)worry. (1)worse (2)worst (1)would (12)wouldn't (1)wreck (1)write (4)written (2)wrong (2)wrong. (1)wrote (1)

< Y >y'all (7)Yeah (4)Yeah. (7)year (7)year. (2)years (39)years. (7)yes, (1)Yes. (5)yesterday (1)yet. (1)you (36)you. (11)young (4)younger (1)your (8)you're (4)

< Z >zero (1)zero, (1)zeroing (1)

Meeting 1


Page 11

2 MEETING OF THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE3 ON CHILD SUPPORT GUIDELINES4 FOR THE STATE OF ALABAMA5

6

7

8

9 August 2nd, 201310

11

12

13

14 The following proceedings were held in the15 meeting of the Advisory Board on Child Support16 Guidelines for the State of Alabama on Friday,17 August 2nd, 2013, at the Heflin-Torbert Judicial18 Building, 300 Dexter Avenue, Montgomery, Alabama19 36104, and was taken down by Rena' Lanier,20 Certified Court Reporter and Notary Public for21 the State of Alabama at Large, and was open to22 the public.23

Page 21 A P P E A R A N C E S2

3 For the Committee:4 Gordon Bailey, Chairman5 Judge Aubrey Ford, Jr., Co-Chairman, Macon County6 District Judge7 Jennifer Bush, DHR Legal Counsel8 Faye Nelson, Alabama Child Support Director9 Angela Campbell, DHR Program Mgr Mobile County10 Justice Lyn Stuart, Alabama Supreme Court11 Penny Davis, Alabama Law Insitute12 Mary Moore, Circuit Clerk Perry County, Alabama13 Julia Kimbrough, Attorney Shelby County, Alabama14 Judge Julie Palmer, Circuit Judge Jefferson Co15 Judge Billy Bell, Circuit Judge Madison County16 Michael Polemeni, Alabama Family Rights17 Association and National Parents Organization18 Angela Drees, Birmingham, Alabama19 Bob Maddox, AOC Attorney20 Also Present:21 Alex Jackson, Julia Weller, Melissa with Channel22 12, Carter with Channel 8, Jim Clark, Boyd23 Landry, Kenneth Paschal, Roy Lloyd

Page 31 MR. BAILEY: We're going to start on2 time. I'm so glad everybody is here. We3 have lots of special guests today.4 And, Alex, do you want to introduce our5 real special guest first?6 MR. JACKSON: I do. I want to introduce7 my boss, Julia Weller, the new clerk of the8 Alabama Supreme Court. She's a welcome9 addition. She's doing a fine job. She's10 working me harder than I've worked in the11 23 years I've been here. She has me thinking12 more and more about the future that I have13 outside of the practice of law one of these14 days. She's a great boss.15 MR. BAILEY: Wonderful.16 MR. JACKSON: And she's done a really17 wonderful job of getting through the mess we18 have dealing with all the papers we get. And19 she strongly supports the committee. If you20 need anything, feel free to contact her or21 contact me.22 MR. BAILEY: We certainly are glad to23 have you. Would you like to say anything to

Page 41 the committee?2 MS. WELLER: Our office is always open to3 you, and please contact us if you have any4 questions or we can be of any assistance.5 Thank you so much.6 MR. BAILEY: Thank you for being here.7 Your predecessor, Bob, was a wonderful -- is8 a wonderful gentleman and did a great job and9 a real friend to all of us. Look forward to10 working with you.11 MS. WELLER: Thank you very much.12 MR. BAILEY: I'm Gordon Bailey. We're13 going to go around to the committee members14 and have them introduce themselves. I want15 to welcome several people.16 Rena' Lanier is here with Freedom Court17 Reporting. When you say something, speak18 out, testify or whatever, please give her19 your name and title before you do so, so she20 can keep it all straight.21 I want to welcome Melissa with Channel22 12. Are you with Melissa?23 MR. CARTER: No, sir. I'm Carter with

Meeting 2


Page 51 Channel 8.2 MR. BAILEY: I'm sorry?3 MR. CARTER: Carter with Channel 8.4 MR. BAILEY: Carter with Channel 8. I5 asked Melissa, I said, did you bring a6 make-up man, and she said no, but she has one7 on call.8 MS. McKINNEY: I haven't even done my own9 yet.10 MR. BAILEY: She has one on call. Of11 course, we all met Alex Jackson at our last12 meeting. He's taken over for Wayne and has13 done a great job at his being with us on our14 committee. And, of course, Bob Maddox, is15 over here with AOC, our staff attorney.16 Let's go around the room and introduce17 ourselves.18 I'm Gordon Bailey as I said. I've19 practiced law in Anniston for 35 years.20 Seems like 135. Was a child support referee21 for six or seven years after that. And I am22 now retired.23 Would you like to start?

Page 61 MS. DREES: Yes, sir. My name is Angela2 Drees. I'm from Birmingham, Alabama.3 MS. KIMBROUGH: I'm Julia Kimbrough. I'm4 in private practice in Shelby County,5 Alabama. And my primary focus is family law.6 JUSTICE STUART: I'm Lyn Stuart. I'm an7 Associate Justice on the Alabama Supreme8 Court and a former juvenile and domestic9 relations judge in Baldwin County.10 I want to say for the Record that I11 actually am a member of this committee. And12 this is pursuant to a federal court order in13 previous litigation concerning the Alabama14 Child Support Guidelines.15 I make that point to say that that is16 different. Justices of the Alabama Supreme17 Court are assigned to various committees that18 we have, but typically the justices serve19 only as a liaison to the committee, not a20 member of the committee. And my role in this21 case is unique. I want to make that point.22 MR. BAILEY: And we're glad to have you.23 MS. CAMPBELL: I'm Angela Campbell. I'm

Page 71 the DHR Program Manager in Mobile County.2 MS. NELSON: I'm Faye Nelson. I'm the3 Child Support Director for the State of4 Alabama.5 MS. BUSH: I am Jennifer Bush, DHR legal6 counsel.7 MR. BAILEY: Okay. Michael.8 MR. POLEMENI: Michael Polemeni. I'm a9 private citizen and a member of the Alabama10 Family Rights Association and the National11 Parents Organization.12 JUDGE BELL: My name is Billy Bell, and13 I'm a Circuit Judge in Madison County. And I14 practiced primarily family law for 30 years15 before I was elected in 2002 to the bench.16 MS. DAVIS: I'm Penny Davis from the17 Alabama Law Institute.18 MR. BAILEY: At our meeting on19 February 7th, I asked people to give us the20 years, the number of years they've served on21 the committee, and I totaled up 93. So22 that's a lot of years for all of us to serve23 as a member of this committee. Total years

Page 81 93.2 I'll now entertain a motion to approve3 the transcript. Did everyone have a chance4 to read the transcript?5 Bob, I believe you have a copy of it for6 us here?7 MR. MADDOX: Yes, sir.8 MR. BAILEY: Any comments? I do have one9 suggestion and possible correction. There10 was a statement on page 87, line 9 from11 Mr. Boyd -- Boyd Landry, attorney from Elmore12 County.13 He referred to the spirit of tenus. And14 that was the Court of the Civil Appeals. And15 I think he meant ore tenus. So we'll suggest16 that we make that correction. You may want17 to check your date and see, but I think he18 meant ore tenus.19 MR. LANDRY: I'm sure that's what I said.20 MR. BAILEY: I'm sorry?21 MR. LANDRY: I'm sure that's what I said.22 MR. BAILEY: Boyd, is that -- are you23 here? I didn't see you over there. I -- I'm

Meeting 3


Page 91 sure you meant ore tenus.2 MR. LANDRY: I'm -- I'm -- I'm almost3 positive that that's what I said.4 MR. BAILEY: I'm not aware of the Court5 of Civil Appeals playing tennis during their6 breaks, but it could be so.7 Let me introduce Aubrey Ford. Aubrey,8 you introduce yourself, Judge Ford.9 JUDGE FORD: Aubrey Ford, Macon County10 District Judge. I've served for 35 years and11 about to quit.12 MR. BAILEY: Judge Ford and I are two of13 the original members of this committee14 appointed in -- I was going to say --15 original committee members appointed back in16 1980. Isn't that right, Aubrey?17 JUDGE FORD: Yes.18 MR. BAILEY: It was a different name and19 a different committee organization. We're20 two of the original members, and we need our21 walkers before we leave. Good to have you.22 JUDGE FORD: Good to see you.23 MR. BAILEY: Transcript. Let's go back

Page 101 to the transcript. Any other corrections?2 Boyd, is that -- I'm sure you meant ore3 tenus.4 MR. LANDRY: And I'm not a lawyer either.5 So if that's the...6 MR. BAILEY: That's the term.7 MR. LANDRY: All right.8 MR. BAILEY: You got it. We'll make that9 correction. Any other changes or corrections10 to the transcript from our November 7th11 meeting?12 MR. PASCHAL: Sir, I'm from -- I'm just a13 citizen. But regarding this transcript, I14 don't know that it's a bigger deal, but I had15 an opportunity to read it.16 The reference to Mr. Davis on several17 pages, I think that was incorrect. I think18 it should have been Mr. Smith as I was19 reading it. It's --20 MR. BAILEY: Bob, I think you and I21 talked about that as well. We need to make22 that correction. Good point. I -- I omitted23 that. That name needs to be changed.

Page 111 Any other suggestions, corrections,2 comments about the transcript?3 (No response.)4 MR. BAILEY: All right. With those5 corrections, I'll entertain a motion to6 accept or approve the transcript from the7 February 7th meeting. Do I have a motion,8 please?9 MS. KIMBROUGH: So moved.10 MR. BAILEY: That's Julia, Julia11 Kimbrough. Second?12 JUDGE BELL: Second.13 MR. BAILEY: Judge Bell. All in favor14 say I.15 (Everyone responded.)16 MR. BAILEY: Opposed?17 (No response.)18 MR. BAILEY: All right. The transcript19 is approved. All right. Our business is20 review of schedule starting out as our first21 topic number three, review of schedule.22 At our last meeting it was discussed that23 we contact Jane Venohr who helped us do all

Page 121 the guidelines and research and do the2 schedule last year -- about four years ago,3 excuse me, about updating the schedule and4 how much that would cost.5 Bob, can you give us a quick report on6 that, please?7 MR. MADDOX: Yes, sir. I was unable to8 attend the -- the last meeting. But Gordon9 Bailey, Alex Jackson and the Supreme Court10 Clerk's Office and I got together. And we11 from the last transcript contacted -- I12 contacted Jane Venorh by e-mail. And she13 gave us an estimate.14 And I probably just need to read this15 verbatim just to be exact what she said in16 her e-mail.17 MR. BAILEY: Good idea.18 MR. MADDOX: This was from Jane Venohr,19 May the 21st of this year. We're billing20 about $20,000 now for a scheduled update with21 realignment for low income status. That22 includes a report, comparisons and some23 limited additional analysis on a specific

Meeting 4


Page 131 issue, for example, tax consequences. Home2 site presentation arranged from about $25003 to $7000 depending on travel, length of4 presentation and amount of preliminary5 analysis. A higher amount involved something6 like 60 slides is a little extreme.7 Analysis of other issues, for example,8 parenting time adjustments, analysis of case9 file data range from about $500 to over10 $10,000. If it's an issue we looked at11 recently, the cost could be on the low end.12 If it's an issue we've never looked at13 and would require extensive data analysis of14 thousands of case files, the billing of the15 data field is on the high end.16 So I would guesstimate that 20,000 to17 $35,000 would be the total depending on18 whether Alabama really needed the last two19 tasks.20 MR. BAILEY: All right. Obviously, our21 committee has no budget. Let's discuss how,22 what amount -- Julie, I'm sorry. I didn't23 see you.

Page 141 JUDGE PALMER: I just walked in.2 MR. BAILEY: Would you introduce3 yourself, please?4 JUDGE PALMER: Julie Palmer, Circuit5 Court Judge, Birmingham Division, Domestic6 Relations.7 MR. BAILEY: Julie, good to have you with8 us.9 JUDGE PALMER: Good to be here.10 MR. BAILEY: Let's have some discussion11 about what we want to ask, a recommendation12 to the Supreme Court about funding, how much13 we think we're going to need, what we'd like14 for Jane to do or anybody that takes this15 task on for us. Let's have some discussion16 about that.17 Anybody want to talk about...18 JUDGE BELL: Is she the only source for19 this work?20 MR. BAILEY: Bob, you put out a request21 for services four years ago, five years, six22 years ago. And how many responses did we23 have?

Page 151 MR. MADDOX: Basically, just her. And,2 certainly, Mr. Rogers --3 MR. BAILEY: Right.4 MR. MADDOX: -- came to our meeting, an5 he had -- we paid for -- and that was6 something that I did want to point out from7 the last transcript.8 I think a comment was made that his cost9 of coming here and doing the study was fully10 borne by the Alabama Family Rights11 Association. But we did do a contract with12 AOC. They may have paid some of it, but we13 did do a contract between AOC and him to do14 the study of about $15,000 --15 MR. BAILEY: Right.16 MR. MADDOX: -- in 2006. So we sent out17 about -- we didn't know how to do this in18 terms of economics data analysis. We19 basically sent it out from the division of20 purchase. The Department of Finance sent us21 a list of who basically did analyses of some22 sort, and it was totaling over 1100 people.23 So we sent all of that -- that was back

Page 161 in the mail days back in 2005. So we mailed2 all of those out from our office as well as3 to all 29 universities and colleges in the4 state that may have business departments or5 economics departments.6 And Jane Venohr was the only one that7 submitted a request by the deadline date that8 year.9 MR. BAILEY: Right. Billy, does that --10 Judge Bell, does that answer your question?11 I'm sorry.12 JUDGE BELL: It did. And it's just...13 MR. BAILEY: Mike, did you want to say14 something?15 MR. POLEMENI: Yes, sir. Researching in16 Massachusetts, they did a -- their child17 support committee just did their guidelines,18 and it went into effect yesterday, August 1.19 New Hampshire and Iowa redid -- just did20 their child support guidelines. And they21 went into effect July 1 of 2013.22 New Jersey was April 1, 2013.23 Georgia is meeting today also for their

Meeting 5


Page 171 child support committee.2 I don't have it written down, but I have3 a -- copies of their guidelines on a thumb4 drive.5 There's a group out of Massachusetts that6 did their guidelines. And they're doing7 their guidelines on net income versus gross8 income. And there are a lot -- I've got9 copies of all of their guidelines they have10 if you want to review those. That's a lot of11 information.12 MR. BAILEY: Now, when you say they redid13 their guidelines, you mean they redid the14 whole guideline approach? Adopted another15 model? Or they --16 MR. POLEMENI: No. No. They -- they're17 doing -- they did what we did, what we're18 doing now.19 MR. BAILEY: Redid the schedules?20 MR. POLEMENI: Redid the schedules. In21 fact, they all -- they all lowered the22 schedule overall. But they're all income23 based also.

Page 181 MR. BAILEY: Similar to ours that appear2 here?3 MR. POLEMENI: Right.4 MS. DAVIS: Hey, Mike, do you have any5 idea how much those costs?6 MR. POLEMENI: No. No, I don't. I'd7 have to -- on the Massachusetts, they8 reference the gentleman that did it. And --9 but they have all of that data in -- in -- on10 that thumb drive if you want a copy of that.11 MS. DAVIS: We need to follow up.12 MR. BAILEY: Bob, didn't Jane also13 mention she was going to try to check with14 Arkansas to see if we might borrow their15 report to save a little money and --16 MR. MADDOX: Yes.17 MR. BAILEY: -- that might help us in the18 long run?19 MR. MADDOX: Yes, sir.20 MR. BAILEY: Any other -- let's talk21 about how much, or what direction we want to22 go in. Do we want to look at redoing the23 schedule only?

Page 191 Do we want to look at redoing the whole2 concept of the guidelines? I don't think we3 want to do that after all 13, 15 years we've4 spent passing the new ones in '08.5 Let me have some discussion from the6 committee please about where we want to go.7 MR. POLEMENI: Well, I think that the8 guidelines are necessary when they're9 necessary.10 Shared parenting would be the ideal11 situation. It would save the courts money.12 It would save the state money overall if the13 agreements are made and let the parents14 negotiate if they're -- if they're fit15 parents.16 If there's no -- and I'll read something17 here out of the WebMD.com July and August18 2013. And they're talking about that parents19 need to stay involved. The most important20 thing from a man's point of view is his child21 wants him and his child needs him says Gordon22 E. Finley, Ph.D.23 Maintaining the relationship is important

Page 201 for your child's development outcome, social2 emotional and education. And then they go in3 there -- and I think that's some of the same4 things we've said here in these meetings over5 the years.6 MR. BAILEY: Right. Right.7 MR. POLEMENI: And following those8 guidelines, I think, you know, for fit9 parents shared parenting would save everyone10 money in the long run and do away with the11 guidelines completely for those specific12 things.13 Now, the courts need to address the14 guidelines when -- when it's necessary.15 MR. BAILEY: Aubrey.16 JUDGE FORD: I think the only competing17 interest you have here is the fact that you18 have those persons who at one time were19 married and did have established20 relationships with their children as opposed21 to a majority of the cases that are probably22 running through the system are those persons23 who were never married, some of them that

Meeting 6


Page 211 have established a relationship with the2 children and some who do not.3 And you have to take into effect how are4 you going to establish that relationship if5 indeed the person wishes to do that.6 MR. POLEMENI: Right. Right. And that7 would be where the courts really need to8 concentrate their efforts.9 MR. BAILEY: All right. So you would10 suggest that we take another look at shared11 parenting as it relates to child support; is12 that correct?13 MR. POLEMENI: Correct.14 MR. BAILEY: All right. Do I have a15 sense from the committee -- and I think,16 Judge Bell, you mentioned this in the last17 meeting that you wanted us to look at the18 economics involved in the schedule and see if19 anything has changed over the last four or20 five years.21 JUDGE BELL: I would. As I understand22 it, that schedule hasn't been changed or23 looked at since 2006. I came on the

Page 221 committee after that.2 MR. BAILEY: Right.3 JUDGE BELL: I think we need to look and4 see how the economics of Alabama will affect5 that. Because it's based upon the amount of6 child support that these parents are presumed7 to provide. And I think the economics of it8 would make a difference, or could make a9 difference and we need to know that.10 MR. BAILEY: Right.11 JUDGE BELL: What Michael was talking12 about I think is one of the things that we13 need to look at within the Rule 3214 guidelines.15 But the schedule itself I think needs to16 be accurate if we're going to recommend that17 it be continued at that level.18 MR. BAILEY: I thought that you expressed19 that at our last meeting.20 JUDGE BELL: I did. I did.21 MR. BAILEY: And we should at least do22 that. Do we have a consensus that we would23 like for Jane or whomever we select to look

Page 231 at the schedule, the economic part of the2 schedule? Is that a good starting point for3 us to begin?4 JUDGE FORD: I agree.5 MR. BAILEY: Penny.6 MS. DAVIS: I agree. But as a practical7 matter, we ought to address, are we -- do we8 have authority to commit to hire someone? Or9 are we just going to recommend that the court10 hire -- that -- that that's the procedure11 that we follow?12 MR. BAILEY: I don't think we have any13 committee funding.14 MS. DAVIS: Well, that's what I'm saying.15 MR. BAILEY: Our esteemed member of the16 Supreme Court, I -- I don't think she's going17 to sign the check.18 MS. DAVIS: Okay. What are our19 limitations? I assume we need to figure out20 what kind of limitations we have before we21 make any decisions.22 JUSTICE STUART: Can I ask a question?23 MR. BAILEY: Sure.

Page 241 JUSTICE STUART: I'm not sure about this.2 This is Lyn Stuart. And I'm going to ask Bob3 Maddox because he would know. Has this been4 paid for with AOC money in the past? Or how5 has it been paid?6 MR. MADDOX: Well, in the past DHR has7 helped us reimburse the costs of these8 studies because it is related to child9 support for the child support program.10 JUSTICE STUART: That makes me feel a11 little bit better.12 MS. DAVIS: And everybody is aware that13 the economics are difficult. And it14 certainly is for the courts as well as15 everybody else.16 MR. BAILEY: Absolutely. Let's hear from17 our finance man.18 MS. NELSON: As -- as the DHR19 representative, because this is a child20 support issue, we draw down our 66 percent of21 the cost with federal dollars.22 MR. BAILEY: Right.23 MS. NELSON: I do have, because this was

Meeting 7


Page 251 an issue that I saw that was on the agenda, I2 have submitted a question to our federal3 office that if this is something that the4 committee recommends what would be the5 process by which we would have to get federal6 approval to pay X number of dollars.7 You know, when you're talking about 30 to8 $60,000, you may be able to pull down the9 federal share, but someone still has to pay10 that 34 percent state share.11 So I don't know if that would come from12 DHR or if AOC would have to cover that13 34 percent cost, that difference in whatever14 the hundred percent cost is.15 MR. BAILEY: Bob, I think AOC covered it16 last -- in '05 or '06, didn't it?17 MR. MADDOX: Yes.18 MS. DAVIS: Well, I make a motion --19 MR. MADDOX: I would have to check with20 our office, the administrative director. I21 can't speak for him.22 MR. BAILEY: Julie.23 JUDGE PALMER: Julie Palmer. The only

Page 261 thing that I want to mention is that the two2 studies last time, because I've been on the3 committee I think since '04, is the -- even4 the economic studies that they have are two5 to three to four years old by the time they6 collect all the data.7 So there is no real time as to what8 happened in 2012. It's going to be 2010,9 2009 I would think just from the two studies10 there were here last time that they would be11 bringing any new economic data to us.12 And we all know that the price of gas has13 gone up from 2009 and 2010 to, I mean, you14 know, I think this month alone it's gone up15 16 cents. Or last month.16 So just let everybody be aware of that.17 That whatever data we get is going to be old18 in comparison.19 MS. CAMPBELL: Well, I have a question.20 It's probably more ignorance than anything21 else.22 My name is Angela Campbell. According to23 the amendment to guidelines, she did her

Page 271 study, Ms. Venohr did her study, economic2 study and updated it to 2007 price levels.3 I'm not an economist, but if we're4 talking about redoing guidelines which are5 going to be sort of permanent at least for6 four years, do we want to do guidelines based7 on the downturn in the economy? We're hoping8 it will go up.9 MR. BAILEY: Good question.10 MS. CAMPBELL: There's another question11 too. Income is income. Whatever income you12 make, things are going up. Things are going13 up everywhere.14 If you're making less money than you were15 making five years ago, which that's me, if I16 had to go to court to get a child support17 order it will be need to be based on what I'm18 making now, not what I was, you know. That's19 what I'm talking about.20 MR. BAILEY: Good point. We would21 certainly want to ask Jane what other states22 are doing. She's just completed the Arkansas23 report recently. So we could ask her what

Page 281 they did. We could ask her how far states2 are going back in terms of number of years3 and if she has to do something currently or4 exactly what to do.5 Yes, sir.6 MR. POLEMENI: We're at the beginning of7 the school cycle. Could we get, you know,8 one of our major universities or several of9 our major universities to pitch in and do the10 study, or at least bid on the study?11 MR. BAILEY: Bob.12 JUDGE FORD: We tried.13 MR. BAILEY: That's a good point though.14 Today is tax free day, so I think we're all15 here and can spend our money without paying16 tax.17 MR. POLEMENI: Usually we are at the end18 of the semester when we do these things.19 MR. BAILEY: Bob, did the University of20 Alabama or Auburn respond last time?21 MR. MADDOX: No, sir, not timely.22 MR. BAILEY: I didn't think they did.23 All right. Any other discussion on this

Meeting 8


Page 291 issue because we've got a lot of issues to2 cover?3 By the way we had a new member join.4 MS. MOORE: Mary Moore, Circuit Clerk5 Perry County.6 MR. BAILEY: Glad to have you with us.7 Any other discussion on the direction, Bob,8 we may want to give Jane in terms of putting9 together a bid for us before we get down to10 funding? Any other discussion on that?11 JUSTICE STUART: Lyn Stuart again. I12 think if there's any way that we could just13 take Arkansas and make it applicable to14 Alabama that's what we need to ask her to do.15 I'm not sure we're in a position to pay for a16 completely new study.17 MR. BAILEY: I -- I'm not sure we are18 either. She's offered to share the Arkansas19 report with us, but she's having to get20 permission from various levels. And we21 certainly understand that. So, hopefully,22 that will come through for us.23 MS. DAVIS: Do you have a motion? Or...

Page 301 MR. BAILEY: We need a motion, we need2 some direction for Jane too. Because Bob and3 I tried to talk to her about some, you know,4 issues to cover and get some direction and5 some guesstimates, but I think we need a6 little bit more specific direction for Jane.7 MS. DAVIS: Well, I don't want to get the8 cart before the horse. I think we need to9 clarify the funding first.10 MR. BAILEY: Right.11 MS. DAVIS: So my motion would be to give12 the chairman authority to discuss all13 possible funding sources, both federal and14 state with DHR, AOC, the courts, the Feds,15 anybody, random people we see on the street16 and report back to the committee what funding17 we have to work with. At that point, I think18 we can then begin to give direction.19 MR. BAILEY: All right. All right. Do20 we have any -- you have a second to the21 motion first? Or a second to the motion22 first?23 JUDGE FORD: Second.

Page 311 MR. POLEMENI: Second.2 MR. BAILEY: All right. Judge Ford3 seconded. Any discussion on the motion,4 please?5 (No response.)6 MR. BAILEY: All right. All in -- let's7 vote. All in favor say I?8 (Everyone responded.)9 MR. BAILEY: Opposed?10 (No response.)11 MR. BAILEY: All right. I'll assume that12 mantle of responsibility.13 MS. DAVIS: Good man.14 MR. BAILEY: The next topic on the agenda15 is health insurance. We talked a good bit16 about that last time. Judge Bell, you want17 to pick up that ball for us?18 JUDGE BELL: Well, that's -- that's19 just -- as a sitting judge dealing with child20 support issues, that's just one of those21 issues that I think we're struggling with.22 I mentioned the case I got reversed on23 for deviating from Rule 32 and not including

Page 321 the child support of a stepfather who was2 covering not only his new wife and the3 parties' two children but also his child by a4 prior marriage added without any premium.5 And I got reversed for that, and rightfully6 so in that Rule 32 requires that that happen.7 We had -- at the last committee we had8 proposed a change to Rule 32 where we would9 only include in the calculation a pro rata10 share of the family policy premium.11 Right now as we all know the Rule 3212 guidelines require that the full family13 premium be included in the calculation, which14 quite honestly can result in some injustices15 as it did I thought in the case that I had.16 But I think we need to revisit the pro rata17 share.18 MR. BAILEY: Okay.19 JUDGE BELL: And we should still have20 that particular recommendation. Not that we21 need to go exactly by that, but I do think we22 need to revisit that issue.23 MR. BAILEY: Penny, I know you were

Meeting 9


Page 331 interested in us doing that when we convened2 at that point.3 MS. DAVIS: That's still an issue with4 me. I think whether we -- the two thoughts5 that come to my mind is that we might look6 now a few years down the road and see what7 other states are doing.8 Because there's been a lot of change in9 the health insurance industry, which we know,10 and a lot to come which even the Feds don't11 know I think what they did.12 But it might be helpful, the states that13 Mike had talked about, I don't know if they14 did only schedule changes or if they also15 looked and tweaked some of their guidelines.16 But if might be helpful if we could have17 maybe a subcommittee that Judge Bell could18 chair.19 MR. POLEMENI: It's a lot of data.20 MS. DAVIS: And that would just focus on21 what a number of other states have done22 dealing with healthcare.23 And if we can't decide on something, I

Page 341 think at the minimum we ought to give more2 flexibility or discretion with the judges so3 that when a judge who's looking at the whole4 family picture like Judge Bell did in that5 case --6 MR. BAILEY: Right.7 MS. DAVIS: -- give him discretion that8 the rule does not yet at this point give him.9 MR. BAILEY: Right. Judge Bell, if I10 asked to you chair a subcommittee -- and to11 refresh everybody's memory, I thought our12 subcommittees four or five, six years ago13 really worked well in zeroing in on14 particular topics, particular issues.15 And, Judge Bell, would you mind assuming16 that responsibility to chair a subcommittee17 on the health insurance revisit?18 JUDGE BELL: I'll be happy to on one19 condition. That you put Ms. Davis who just20 volunteered me to be on the subcommittee.21 MR. BAILEY: She gladly accepts.22 JUDGE BELL: I'm sure she does.23 MS. DAVIS: That's the Baptist way, isn't

Page 351 it?2 JUDGE BELL: I'll be happy to.3 MR. BAILEY: Would anybody else like to4 serve on this subcommittee? Julie would be5 great. And would you like to as well? All6 right. Julie and Julia. Wonderful.7 MR. POLEMENI: I can't provide any legal8 information, but I'm happy to help in any way9 I can.10 MR. BAILEY: All right. So we've got11 Mike.12 JUDGE BELL: Legal mind.13 MR. BAILEY: All right. Judge Bell, we14 have your committee assembled -- Penny, Julie15 and Julia and Mike.16 JUDGE BELL: Thank y'all very much.17 MR. BAILEY: Okay. Thank y'all. That is18 a big issue. Because I know we had a lot of19 discussion about it before and spent a lot of20 time on that particular issue.21 All right. Any other comments on health22 insurance or the health insurance issue as it23 relates to the guidelines?

Page 361 MR. POLEMENI: What was the outcome of2 the Amendment VI issue?3 MR. BAILEY: Well, Alex, refresh my4 memory. I thought you -- you were going to5 be furnished a brief with some cites I6 believe by the gentleman that addressed that7 issue last time.8 MR. JACKSON: Never got anything.9 MR. POLEMENI: Which was, you know,10 basically we can't -- the state can't compel11 someone to buy insurance, which the courts12 are doing in this instance.13 JUDGE PALMER: Well, on that, the14 Affordable Healthcare Act is going into15 effect on January the 1st, 2014. Isn't the16 federal government compelling people to buy17 health insurance?18 JUDGE FORD: They are.19 JUDGE PALMER: Isn't that why that's20 going to come out?21 MR. POLEMENI: That's why Amendment VI22 was approved by the voters is they don't want23 to be compelled.

Meeting 10


Page 371 JUDGE FORD: And another issue is whether2 or not you can be compelled to buy family3 coverage or only individual coverage. I4 don't know under the healthcare reform if5 that's the case.6 MR. BAILEY: Jennifer, you did a little7 research I believe on this recently on this8 issue about the conflict between the9 constitutional amendment and that, health10 insurance guidelines.11 MS. BUSH: Well, the research I came12 across indicated that the purpose of the13 amendment, Amendment VI, was not to address14 child support but was geared towards the15 federal healthcare mandate. And it was not16 geared towards this, and that was not the17 purpose and the intent.18 MR. POLEMENI: Uh-huh.19 MR. BAILEY: And wasn't there --20 MS. BUSH: And, actually -- I don't know.21 This hasn't been decided by the court. But22 one has to wonder if a federal statute would23 trump a state constitution.

Page 381 I mean, we do have an amendment in our2 state constitution. But is it going to be3 effective over a federal statute?4 MR. BAILEY: Right.5 MS. BUSH: I would think federal would6 trump state.7 MR. BAILEY: And refresh my memory. You8 did a little research I know on whether or9 not requiring a parent to contribute to10 health insurance and medical costs is or is11 not unconstitutional or constitutional. And12 the court didn't address it if I remember13 right.14 MS. BUSH: The court -- what I found, the15 decisions I found, they did not specifically16 address Amendment VI and child support but17 indicated that it would not be18 unconstitutional. That it would be19 constitutional to require someone to provide20 health insurance for their child.21 MR. BAILEY: Right.22 MR. POLEMENI: So we're back to what23 Judge Stuart stated is that we're going to

Page 391 have to run it through the system if we're2 going to contest it.3 JUDGE BELL: That's right.4 MS. BUSH: But that specific question,5 Amendment VI and child support, has not been6 decided.7 MR. BAILEY: Right. I think that's the8 correct status right now. Okay.9 All right. Any other comments,10 discussion on health insurance in light of11 what we just talked about? Any other12 comments?13 (No response.)14 MR. BAILEY: All right. Let's now go to15 tax deduction and dependents. We had a good16 bit of discussion about that at our17 February 7th meeting. Judge Bell, you asked18 us I think to take a look at that as well.19 JUDGE BELL: I did. I seem to be causing20 all the problem. But that is just one of21 those areas --22 MR. BAILEY: Right.23 JUDGE BELL: -- too where I think judges

Page 401 need to have more flexibility. Because Rule2 32 builds into the calculations that the3 custodial parent is going to get the tax4 exemption.5 But we all know child support is not tax6 deductible by the paying party. It's not7 taxable to the receiving party. And that may8 be true, but there's a lot of cases where9 that is just not the fair thing to do if10 you've got several children and there's a lot11 of child support being paid.12 I just think it's something we need to13 look at and make sure we can breathe into the14 guidelines some flexibility for the judges to15 deviate on that particular issue. That --16 that's just my...17 JUSTICE STUART: Would it be a18 satisfactory solution in that particular19 issue to include that among the grounds for20 which a judge can deviate, and specifically21 say that in the rule? And then, I mean, I22 just trust the judges overall.23 JUDGE BELL: Thank you.

Meeting 11


Page 411 JUSTICE STUART: I think they can use2 discretion given the facts in a particular3 case and in maybe the particular situation.4 JUDGE BELL: I think that would be5 wonderful. And that might be a good thing to6 do on the health insurance issue too, to7 breathe some flexibility into it. I do think8 that would work like that.9 JUSTICE STUART: I can further state that10 I think that is something that if this11 committee chose to do it it could do sooner12 rather than later.13 MR. BAILEY: Right.14 JUSTICE STUART: And certainly not wait15 until we look at the guidelines themselves.16 MR. BAILEY: Absolutely.17 JUSTICE STUART: It might really be18 helpful to the trial judges and the families19 of the state.20 MR. BAILEY: That is an excellent point.21 JUDGE BELL: I agree.22 MR. BAILEY: We don't need to delay some23 decisions like that on funding and a new

Page 421 economic review. We can make those decisions2 quickly. Good point.3 Do we want to have some more discussion4 about that?5 MR. POLEMENI: A lot of the states on my6 list that made decisions were going with net7 income versus gross.8 And I know there are some people that lie9 about their net income or hide income between10 gross and net. But the majority -- and that11 would be something where the judge could, you12 know, get validation.13 But if we just looked at taking out state14 and federal taxes as a complement of that.15 JUDGE FORD: I see where -- I was going16 to ask you what is your definition of net17 income.18 MR. POLEMENI: Yeah. Yeah.19 JUDGE FORD: It can get really cloudy as20 we go down the list.21 MR. POLEMENI: I would say taxes, you22 know.23 JUDGE FORD: Okay.

Page 431 MR. BAILEY: All right. Any other issue2 or discussion on that particular issue?3 And to follow up on Justice Stuart's4 suggestion, are there any other issues that5 we want to address quickly in the next --6 maybe by the next meeting to have some7 language drafted other than her suggestion8 about deviation on that issue?9 Any other issues that we want to -- yes.10 MS. BUSH: Are you talking about tax11 deduction and health insurance, both of those12 issues, giving the judge the authority to13 deviate?14 MR. BAILEY: I think we certainly could.15 And, Billy, if you could have us a report --16 I don't want to push you, but if you could17 have us a report by the next meeting, we18 might be able to adopt some of that language.19 JUDGE BELL: Good. I'll do that.20 MR. BAILEY: That was an excellent21 suggestion that we move forward on some of22 the -- tweak some of the guidelines that are23 not working as well as they possibly should

Page 441 for our trial judges.2 Any other suggestions or other issues3 besides those two that we could address4 quickly and possibly by our next meeting?5 (No response.)6 MR. BAILEY: Okay. We'll move on then to7 child support and visitation and shared8 placement.9 Mike, do you want to take that over?10 Because I know you're interested in that11 issue quite a bit.12 MR. POLEMENI: Well, basically, you know,13 that goes back to the shared parenting issue.14 And those parents that can negotiate or15 mediate a shared parenting arrangement should16 be able -- should be allowed to do so and not17 be hindered by the courts based on their18 assumption of what should be done.19 They may want to review it. But if it's20 already been mediated by lawyers, why should21 the judge disagree?22 And I believe the state states that in23 its bylines that if you have an agreement, or

Meeting 12


Page 451 maybe it's a rule -- I don't know. But if2 there's an agreement before the court, the3 court should accept it unless it's woefully4 deficient for some reason or other.5 MR. BAILEY: Well, let's ask our judges6 what's going on in your courtrooms around the7 state as we speak.8 Julie, you want to take that first?9 JUDGE PALMER: Yes. My usual standard of10 review is if both parties are represented by11 counsel and they've got shared custody,12 whether it be four days with me and three13 days with you, or I get or you every other14 weekend during the school year, and then I15 get her every other weekend during the16 summer, however you want to call it, as long17 as both parties are represented by counsel18 and they agree to deviate from the child19 support guidelines, whether it be zero,20 whether it be zero but you're responsible for21 the child -- for the daycare, I'm responsible22 for out-of-pocket medicals, however you agree23 to it, then 99.9 percent of the time I will

Page 461 sign that.2 It's when there's one party represented3 by counsel and the other party is self-4 represented and the self-represented person5 gets the children but gets no child support6 because it's called joint custody or shared7 custody, I just don't sign that.8 MR. POLEMENI: Right.9 JUDGE PALMER: Especially, let's say they10 are suppose to get $95 and they are supposed11 to get $495.12 MR. POLEMENI: Yeah. And that's a fair13 assessment. I would -- I would have no14 problem with that myself. But that's --15 that's -- that's -- I wish all -- and that's16 one of the problems that we have is 6717 counties in Alabama without -- with I don't18 know -- I don't know the number of judges in19 each county, but they all do something20 different.21 There's no concise and consistent finding22 of facts. And maybe that -- maybe that's the23 answer is that we have not a finding of fact

Page 471 worksheet along with the child support2 guidelines so that -- to address that.3 MR. BAILEY: Well, Delaware being the4 smallest state with three counties has a5 statewide family court. So in any of the6 three counties you get the same visitation7 basically scheduled, the same family law8 issues are dealt with, you know, consistently9 in all three counties.10 With 67 counties it's been proposed11 before and during my lifetime, Bob, and I12 know yours too that we have a statewide13 family court, but I don't think that's going14 to happen while we're still all here.15 MR. POLEMENI: Because for -- if both16 parents are fit, it should be fairly easy for17 the courts to make a decision in my mind.18 It's not, of course, when you have the19 unfit parent. That's when you get into the20 problems. And I think making fit parents21 have to go -- right now in my opinion you're22 making -- fit parents are being treated as23 unfit parents.

Page 481 JUDGE PALMER: Well, I think -- yeah.2 JUDGE FORD: I think a lot of it too is a3 training issue. We've not had a major child4 support training in a while.5 And so -- and we have a new, whole new6 crop of judges that have come on within the7 last six years.8 And so we really -- some of this could be9 resolved through just more concerted training10 of our judges in a setting so we can discuss11 these things and how they are applied. So we12 have a real training issue problem too.13 MR. BAILEY: Mr. Landry brought that to14 our attention on February 7th, and we15 discussed a good bit of training in Alabama16 for judges and so on. And I'm sure that17 warms your heart for Judge Ford to say that.18 MR. LANDRY: Yes, it does.19 MR. BAILEY: And I still want to try to20 rein us in a little bit. Visitation schedule21 statewide is not our charge. We are involved22 with the placement of child and visitation of23 children as it relates to Rule 32.

Meeting 13


Page 491 I don't think it's our charge to develop2 a statewide visitation schedule that everyone3 will love.4 JUDGE PALMER: And I think we've got to5 get away from the word "visitation" period.6 A parent does not visit their child. A7 parent is -- they -- they co-parent.8 MR. BAILEY: Right.9 JUDGE PALMER: You maybe have a custodial10 parent and a noncustodial parent, or a11 secondary custodial time; but, you know,12 we've got to get rid of the word13 "visitation".14 Grandma visits and Aunt Julie visits.15 But parents don't visit. They parent their16 children. And that's one of the main things17 we've got to get rid of.18 I don't think it's in any of the19 guidelines the word "visitation". But in all20 the other statutes it's in clearly there.21 It's called visitation. And we've got to get22 rid of it as a whole.23 JUDGE BELL: Gordon, there is a Family

Page 501 Law Task Force that is -- that is going to2 start meeting. The first meeting I think is3 next month and, maybe the end of this month4 as a matter of fact.5 But going back to the training that we've6 talked about here, I do the family law7 training for the new judges orientation.8 They give me 45 minutes.9 And I'm looking at these new judges who10 are insurance defense lawyers or criminal11 defense lawyers. And when I talk about Rule12 32 and joint legal custody, they look at me13 with the deer-in-the-headlight look and14 saying what in the world are you talking15 about.16 But the only time -- and we've talked17 about the lack of consistency from circuit to18 circuit, but the only time -- I would much19 rather parents make their own decisions and20 decide their issues because they brought21 these children into the world.22 MR. BAILEY: Absolutely.23 JUDGE BELL: And I would rather they do

Page 511 that. The only time I will send back or make2 them revise the agreement is if they don't3 use the correct terms for custody set out in4 Section 30-3-151, or if it's the -- the5 substance of it is not joint custody.6 Sometimes people can get tricked like7 that, and the agreement will say -- maybe8 somebody is self-represented. It will say9 joint custody, joint legal and physical10 custody. The children shall reside primarily11 with the mother, and the other parent will12 get periods of joint custody as set out in13 the visitation schedule attached hereto as14 Exhibit 1.15 Well, the appellate courts have said,16 look, we got to look at the substance, not17 the label. And I think it goes to training18 for lawyers. I mean no disrespect to my good19 lawyers, but they've got to use the right20 terms. They've got to understand the21 significance.22 Because when it comes to a time to modify23 that particular order, we've got to interpret

Page 521 what is it. And the appellate courts have to2 say what in the world is this. And they3 shouldn't have to. We have a statute that4 defines these things.5 JUDGE FORD: Billy, you also have the6 pleasure of maybe -- I don't know whether7 it's a pleasure or not having attorneys in8 your court.9 When you go through what I do on a10 district court level, you have a pro se11 litigant, not a pro se litigant but really12 two pro se litigants because DHR says we have13 nothing to do with parenting time.14 So you are trying to forge an agreement15 between two people that for a single moment16 in their life loved each other, and since17 that time they can't stand each other.18 JUDGE BELL: I wish we could go off the19 record whether I prefer my lawyers to pro se20 because that apples in one hand.21 MR. BAILEY: Well, Faye, bring us up-to-22 date on DHR's training for your DHR child23 support attorneys.

Meeting 14


Page 531 I know, Jennifer, you have participated a2 lot as well. Where are y'all on the training3 of the DHR workers?4 MS. NELSON: Well, you know, with funding5 within our department just like any other6 state agency --7 MR. BAILEY: Right.8 MS. NELSON: -- we have not had any9 direct group training for attorneys since we10 have not had our child support conferences11 within the past what, three years or so.12 MR. BAILEY: About three years.13 MS. NELSON: Jennifer does some, you14 know, one-on-one, you know, when we're aware15 of a new attorney that comes onboard. So we16 utilize her knowledge, you know, to have one-17 on-one communication with them. So she's --18 she's the resource that we use --19 MR. BAILEY: Right.20 MS. NELSON: -- for attorneys.21 MR. BAILEY: Do you do any -- I'm sorry.22 Go ahead.23 MS. NELSON: We're trying to coordinate

Page 541 something with AOC right now to do some2 specialized training as it relates to, you3 know, the e-filing, you know, that's come4 about. So that's pretty much where we are,5 you know.6 But as far as child support one-on-one7 pretty much, you know, we have not have had8 an opportunity to do that on a large scale,9 you know, with attorneys.10 MR. BAILEY: Right. Back in the days11 before IV-D when it was a III-D program --12 I'm kidding.13 Back in the early days of getting the14 program started, we used to do training for15 judges, new judges in different circuits when16 they took the child support docket over. We17 would assemble a team and go in.18 Are you doing any of that now with AOC?19 MS. NELSON: No, we're not.20 JUDGE FORD: No.21 MR. BAILEY: Bob, at AOC for these new22 judges, are you bringing in anything other23 for child support other than the modules that

Page 551 the Office of Child Support developed?2 MR. MADDOX: Not on the module. Like3 Judge Bell pointed out, we have new judge4 orientation. And we only have a very limited5 time on it. I go over the juvenile law. He6 goes over the DR law. We both have a minute7 amount of time to cover a lot.8 MR. BAILEY: Right.9 MR. MADDOX: So we're hoping to do --10 we're in discussions with DHR about doing11 some supplements next calendar year if we12 have the funding available --13 MR. BAILEY: Wonderful.14 MR. MADDOX: -- for judges, DHR attorneys15 and other attorneys possibly. So...16 MR. BAILEY: Billy, is the task force17 going to look at training for judges and18 lawyers in child support? Or is that...19 JUDGE BELL: Gordon, I really don't know.20 I just got appointed to the task force. And21 our -- we're going to have our first22 organizational meeting, so we don't know23 where we are.

Page 561 I'm hoping we're going to look at a2 global family law code for Alabama to try to3 breathe some consistency in the process.4 MR. BAILEY: That would be wonderful.5 JUDGE BELL: But I don't know that for6 sure.7 MR. BAILEY: Keep us updated on the8 family law committee.9 Any other questions or concerns, comments10 about child support and placement? We won't11 use the term "visitation".12 JUDGE BELL: Well -- and I brought it up13 last time. We've got a provision in Rule 3214 for how do you calculate child support in a15 split custody arrangement where each parent16 has got one or more children in his or her17 physical custody.18 But we don't have any provision in there19 for how to calculate under joint custody20 other than it's a recognized reason to21 deviate from Rule 32.22 And when we talk about consistency, I've23 talked with judges all over the state, and

Meeting 15


Page 571 there really is no consistency about how you2 should calculate under Rule 32 --3 MR. BAILEY: Right.4 JUDGE BELL: -- for the joint custody5 arrangement. That may be something we want6 to look at too.7 MR. POLEMENI: Indiana parenting time8 guideline including amendments received9 through March 1, 2013, they're going into --10 again, the Indiana Supreme Court, you know,11 changed their terminology to parenting time.12 MR. BAILEY: Right.13 MR. POLEMENI: I have the preamble here14 if you want to look at that. That goes into15 it. And, plus, I have the whole guidelines16 out from Indiana on a thumb drive as well.17 So...18 JUSTICE STUART: One concern that I have19 is if all of the legislation says visitation20 for us not to track the legislation would21 create more confusion. That may really be a22 legislative issues.23 JUDGE BELL: I don't know that that's

Page 581 something that our committee deals with. The2 family law task force may be -- may be3 looking into that.4 MR. POLEMENI: Okay.5 MR. BAILEY: All right. Any other6 comments on that issue before we hear from7 the public? We've got quite a few people8 from the public here. I'd certainly like to9 give them adequate time.10 Any other comments on those issues or any11 other committee issues before we hear from12 the public?13 Anybody else have any issues or concerns?14 MS. DAVIS: When are we going to deal15 with the letter we received?16 MR. BAILEY: That's a good question. We17 can deal with that now.18 Judge Bell, do you want to give us a19 little background about the letter that20 Bob -- you sent to Bob and myself and that we21 sent out to all the committee members?22 JUDGE BELL: I appreciate it. It just23 came to me in the mail. And it's from a lady

Page 591 who evidently went through a child support2 case or cases in Limestone County. I didn't3 handle the case because I'm in Madison4 County. But I just thought it was something5 that since it was addressed to the Advisory6 Committee. She did send it to Chief Justice7 Moore and to Jennifer and to me and Faye --8 and sent it to Faye Nelson and a bunch of9 senators and Kimberly Essick at the news.10 But I just thought everybody ought to11 know about it. I mean, there's a balancing12 in here about trying to be fair to everybody13 in trying to make this system as efficient as14 possible.15 I think a lot of it probably is our fault16 by taking things for granted and just not17 explaining things the way we should.18 MR. BAILEY: She was speaking on the19 perspective of both a custodial and a20 noncustodial parent which I thought was21 really interesting.22 JUDGE BELL: It was.23 MR. BAILEY: Faye, I know you got a copy

Page 601 of the letter. Any comments on the letter or2 thoughts that you might have?3 MS. NELSON: Well, you know, we're4 limited in what we can share as far as our5 involvement with the case --6 MR. BAILEY: Absolutely.7 MS. NELSON: -- because of8 confidentiality. But I can say that the, you9 know, the county department is involved with10 the case.11 As noted in the letter, there is a12 hearing that's coming up as of next week.13 And they will be addressing what has been14 brought to the court's attention and to DHR's15 attention at that -- during that particular16 hearing.17 MR. BAILEY: Anything else you want to18 add about the letter?19 JUDGE BELL: Well, it just goes with kind20 of what we've been talking about. I don't21 know that there's a lot of consistency22 because I think there's a lot of moving parts23 in the process, including judges.

Meeting 16


Page 611 I am real fortunate in Madison County to2 have two wonderful assistant district3 attorneys that handle child support4 enforcement. They're very knowledgeable.5 They've taught me a lot of law.6 But it's a situation where these things7 can become a nightmare for both sides. You8 can't get service. Maybe it's an interstate9 situation and, you know, it's just -- it can10 be a nightmare.11 And we've got to realize most of these12 people are unrepresented. They're13 representing themselves.14 MR. BAILEY: Absolutely.15 JUDGE BELL: And so we've just got to --16 I think we've got to be more sensitive to17 their position.18 MR. BAILEY: I agree. And, plus, such a19 volume of cases. Judge Ford, how many cases20 a week do you hear? Or a day.21 JUDGE FORD: We're down to once a month22 because we only -- we don't have enough23 workers. We hired one, so now we have two.

Page 621 But we do it once month.2 But the real issue we have in DHR cases3 is they're not represented. They have --4 unfortunately their relationship has broken5 down to the point that perhaps mainly they do6 not speak to each other.7 So it's difficult in trying to formulate,8 not only get the child support but9 particularly in a county like mine where10 employment opportunities are minimal, it's11 not only getting the child support but also12 trying to see what you can do to forward the13 relationship to make insure the child has14 parenting time with both parents. It's --15 it's very, very difficult. But we keep16 trying.17 JUDGE BELL: Well, the problem is with a18 lot of these people is there's been a19 paternity or child support action filed.20 Child support is ordered but there's no21 visitation ordered.22 MR. BAILEY: Right.23 JUDGE BELL: So when you come back on an

Page 631 enforcement, then the paying party wants2 visitation. They serve the assistant3 district attorney who immediately files a4 motion to quash, which is rightly so because5 the state doesn't represent the custodial6 parent, because that's an implied award of7 custody.8 And I don't know if there's anything we9 can do about it, but it doesn't seem right10 there has to be two separate actions if11 you're going to award child support and12 there's an implied award of custody to the13 receiving party. There ought to be some14 mechanism by which we could deal with the15 parenting time for the other parent, the16 paying party.17 MR. BAILEY: I know the Office of Child18 Support and Enforcement was looking at this19 several years ago and trying to create a20 family friendly court in terms of a lot of21 issues.22 Faye, have you received anything from23 OCSE on it lately?

Page 641 MS. NELSON: No, we have not. And as I2 stated earlier, funding hit everybody pretty3 hard. So any initiatives were not really4 implemented within the past, you know, two or5 three years.6 There's a great deal of emphasis on the7 child support program supporting fatherhood8 programs --9 MR. BAILEY: Right.10 MS. NELSON: -- where we're trying to11 become more father friendly.12 MR. BAILEY: Right.13 MS. NELSON: And not just enforcement14 alone. And there's been grant opportunities15 that one of our counties here in the state16 have taken advantage of but, you know, with17 funding sources that would end at the end of18 this month. So there's just been very little19 opportunity to reach out and expand beyond20 what we're doing right now.21 And I know you all mentioned about, you22 know, the number of cases on your docket and23 all of that. But I will say that in

Meeting 17


Page 651 communicating with the county about this2 hearing that's coming up next week, this3 particular docket has over 70 cases on it.4 MR. BAILEY: Right5 MS. NELSON: So, you know, I will say6 that the DHR staff are sensitive to, you7 know, the case situation and that, you know,8 I've assigned my field supervisor to also be9 present to try to assist in trying to work10 through whatever issues exist there. It's a11 challenge for all the parties that's12 involved.13 JUDGE BELL: And when I say sensitive,14 I'm talking about the courts too. I'm not15 just talking to y'all. Everybody involved in16 the process needs to be sensitive to the17 emotions and the importance of this.18 MR. BAILEY: Sure.19 MS. DAVIS: One of the issues that came20 out of her story -- and I'm sure it's not21 anything you've not heard, but just sort of22 thinking globally is her lack of success in23 being able to ascertain the noncustodial's

Page 661 actual income.2 And I wondered if that's something we3 could look at just focusing on the child4 support aspect of it and not the other5 aspects. But in terms of discovery.6 And I'd like some input or discussion7 from the practicing lawyers and the judges as8 to is there becoming -- is it more difficult9 to get discovery.10 Do we need to try to think in terms of11 more teeth in the child support area? Or12 something different than you normally have13 which is contempt powers?14 Should we write in some specific15 financial records that should be required,16 like your -- as an example, prior two years17 of your federal income tax?18 Certainly people can cheat on their19 income tax but, you know, that would be a20 source of financial information --21 MR. BAILEY: Right.22 MS. DAVIS: -- that's available. Would23 that help the DHR people if they can say to

Page 671 their clients you have to provide your2 federal income tax or your state income tax?3 Or can we put a requirement that if they4 don't provide it, the court can -- or it can5 be subpoenaed, that sort of thing?6 MR. BAILEY: Well, to follow up on what7 Judge Ford said, if you have unrepresented8 litigants, I had a docket in Anniston when I9 was refereeing of about 60 to 90 cases a day.10 And when you have an unrepresented11 litigant, discovery is an unknown issue.12 MR. DAVIS: Right. Right.13 MR. BAILEY: It's nonexistent.14 JUDGE FORD: It does not exist.15 MS. BUSH: Judge Gordon --16 MR. BAILEY: Yeah.17 MS. BUSH: -- Rule 32 has a requirement18 that people bring their income statement or19 tax returns, but as a practical matter what20 has been done is people, you know, a21 layperson may not know the content of Rule22 32. They usually don't.23 And if they come to court without that,

Page 681 if the judge continues the case and does not2 set child support until that documentation is3 provided, it may be set two or three months.4 And you can, not always but you can end up5 with a situation where maybe somebody chooses6 not to bring their income just so that child7 support can't be calculated.8 MR. BAILEY: Exactly.9 MS. BUSH: And eventually at some point,10 you may have to impute minimum wage or just11 take other testimony if you can't. So it may12 be good to have some kind of --13 MS. DAVIS: Penalty if they don't.14 MS. BUSH: -- penalty. But I do think15 judges already have that contempt power. If16 the judge enters an order and says custodial17 or noncustodial parent, whoever it is, you18 must bring your tax return, your state -- you19 know, a statement of your income and they20 don't provide it, the judge can still under21 the existing law find that person in contempt22 for failure to...23 MS. DAVIS: I think they can. But I was

Meeting 18


Page 691 wondering if we could be more creative if say2 the person fails after ordered to do so bring3 their income tax then the presumption is that4 the other party, the amount that they suggest5 is presumed, and the burden is on the other6 party to -- to -- who has failed to bring the7 documentation, then they have -- that they8 obviously can get, then they have to overcome9 the burden some other way.10 MS. BUSH: So I'm going to repeat this11 back to you.12 MS. DAVIS: We're married.13 MR. BAILEY: She's back to marrying14 Billy.15 MS. DAVIS: He's the bad guy.16 MR. BAILEY: When was the ceremony?17 JUDGE BELL: I have grown my beard.18 MR. BAILEY: Are you registered at19 Macy's?20 MS. DAVIS: All right. He's the one21 that's a non -- either way, noncustodial,22 custodial parent. He's refusing to give23 information. I think he's making a lot more

Page 701 money than he has been paying. The child2 support guidelines are currently based on the3 amount that he was making four years ago. I4 think he's making a lot more money.5 And he's refusing to bring the6 information. And I say -- he says he's7 making 20,000. I say he's making 40,000.8 If he after being ordered by the court to9 provide the federal income tax documentation10 or whatever documentation we decide, if he11 refuses to do so, then there become a12 presumption that the amount that I said is13 the correct amount and he has to somehow14 overcome that presumption.15 MR. BAILEY: Right.16 MS. DAVIS: Now, the court doesn't have17 to find him in contempt. But, clearly, if18 he's not making the 40,000, it's going to be19 to his advantage to say, okay, I'm not making20 20, I'm only making 30. But just try to21 think sort of outside the box in terms of the22 way that we can encourage people.23 MR. BAILEY: Right.

Page 711 MS. DAVIS: But I also recognize we need2 to balance so the children are not adversely3 affected by anything that we do.4 JUDGE PALMER: Well, there was a study5 recently I'm pretty sure, not a study but a6 report that about 48 percent of the people in7 the United States don't file taxes.8 And then in this case the guy was9 self-employed. And you've not been his wife10 for four years. So now how do you know he's11 been making 40,000 when you've not been12 around him for four years?13 Maybe it's his lifestyle or something14 like that. And the court can take that into15 consideration. You make only 20,000 but your16 house note is a $1000 a month and your car17 note is $1000 a month and your utilities are18 $1000 a month.19 MS. DAVIS: But that's not -- it isn't20 just because he goes out and buys a new house21 or a new boat or whatever. What we're22 looking at is just his income. So those23 things don't really matter.

Page 721 JUDGE PALMER: Well, the court gets to2 look at the lifestyle though. He might say3 he makes minimum wage but --4 MS. DAVIS: Oh, yes. Yes. I understand5 what you're saying from the perspective6 clearly.7 MR. POLEMENI: I agree with, you know,8 the way that Penny presented it sounds fair.9 It puts the responsibility on that person to10 come up with his taxes. Whether he files11 taxes or not he has to come up with some12 documentation of some sort that says this is13 how much I make, and I only make this much14 or, oh, I do make that much.15 JUDGE BELL: Well, it ought to be on both16 sides. We have to have both gross incomes.17 MR. POLEMENI: Right.18 MS. DAVIS: Exactly. Billy in this case19 is the bad guy. He's he one that won't20 provide the information. Whoever it doesn't21 matter, custodial or noncustodial parent.22 JUDGE BELL: I tell you how you might23 could handle that from circuit to circuit is

Meeting 19


Page 731 you could get a standing order from your2 judges -- hold my calls -- if you could get a3 standing order from the judges that would be4 served with the pleading on a rule nisi order5 or whatever type it is that is directed to6 both parties in a child support case that you7 are to bring to this hearing the following8 documents.9 MR. BAILEY: Right.10 JUDGE BELL: Failure to do so may result11 in a dismissal of this case or an entry of12 default judgment against you on the merits.13 MR. BAILEY: That's a good idea.14 JUDGE BELL: And that might be something15 that the child support people, we wouldn't16 have any problem having a standing order like17 that in Madison County. It would help18 everybody.19 MS. CAMPBELL: It would stop the delays20 too. You wouldn't have to delay the case.21 JUDGE BELL: That's where the22 frustrations come from is the delays.23 MR. BAILEY: For a lot of litigants,

Page 741 facing a child support order delay is2 wonderful to be honest about it.3 JUDGE BELL: That's right.4 MR. BAILEY: It's exactly what they're5 looking for.6 MR. POLEMENI: Back at the e-mail, the7 woman that submitted that e-mail, but we've8 been hearing that type of thing for the last9 15 years. So men and women both.10 And one of the issues that we have is the11 contempt filings for not complying with12 either visitation or, you know, parenting13 time or coming up with documents or whatever14 the case may be is some people get contempt15 and are thrown in jail and other people don't16 get contempt for -- for worse, you know, for17 worse acts.18 So have some -- what's the word I'm19 looking for -- have some equity in applying20 the contempt whether it be good or bad.21 MR. BAILEY: All right. Any other22 comments before we hear from the public?23 Anybody else like to join in or add

Page 751 something?2 (No response.)3 MR. BAILEY: All right. Let's hear from4 our public members in the audience.5 Do you have a list? Who has -- Bob, do6 you have the list?7 MR. MADDOX: I haven't passed it around.8 MR. BAILEY: That's all right. All9 right. I believe you were here, this10 gentleman was here first.11 If you'll tell us your name. And we'd12 like to limit your comments to about 1013 minutes --14 MR. CLARK: Okay.15 MR. BAILEY: -- in that area if you could16 since we have a lot of people here. Thank17 you.18 MR. CLARK: My name is Jim Clark. I'm19 from Autauga County. Went through a divorce20 in Tuscaloosa County. I got a couple of21 points for Judge Bell.22 On the tax exemptions, if it's mediated23 and agreed upon in the divorce then

Page 761 consideration should be the judge doesn't2 have discretion later to change that.3 JUDGE BELL: Oh, I agree with that. I'm4 talking about contested.5 MR. CLARK: Mine was just changed after6 eight years of mediated settlement.7 The other thing for you, Your Honor, is8 young adult insurance needs to be considered.9 Now that it's up to 26, is it only the parent10 that carries the insurance that bears the11 burden of paying for it? Or do both parents12 share that burden?13 JUDGE BELL: Well, that's a Bailey case14 consideration.15 MR. BAILEY: Absolutely.16 JUDGE BELL: It's before the Supreme17 Court right now. We can't -- that may be a18 non-factor.19 MS. DAVIS: Well, the child support20 guidelines don't really cover that anyway.21 That's outside the perimeter of our...22 MR. CLARK: But insurance is. And while23 my children are in college even though they

Meeting 20


Page 771 are post-minority, I still have the burden of2 sharing expenses with my ex-spouse.3 So when she graduates from college in 104 days, she doesn't have a job. Doesn't have5 insurance. We're going to carry insurance6 until she gets a job.7 But the question is, you know, I've got8 an ex-spouse who is willing to do that for9 this child. But I know all parents aren't.10 The second thing is, Judge Palmer,11 visitation is mentioned throughout Rule 32.12 JUDGE PALMER: Is it? Well, thank you13 for pointing that out.14 MR. CLARK: And as the noncustodial15 parent, that is important. Because I get16 that thrown at me all the time. The judge17 says you get to visit once a month.18 I say these are my kids. You know, they19 live in Tuscaloosa, and I still have to drive20 two hours to visit my kids.21 The main thing I would like to bring up22 though is military retirement.23 MR. BAILEY: Okay.

Page 781 MR. CLARK: I had a judge in 2011 mandate2 that military retirement for myself on a 10993 is income countable toward child support.4 But she specifically mandated that it was not5 income for my ex-spouse even though she6 received the same 1099 that I did.7 We asked for reconsideration. Two weeks8 later I get a reconsideration that says no,9 my ruling stands.10 So I appealed at great expense. It went11 to the appellate court. The appellate court12 affirmed. No opinion.13 Thirty days later in Santiago v. Santiago14 that just came out in March, they defined15 military retirement as income for both16 parties.17 So now at expense to me I've got to go18 back to court to have that judge reconsider19 based upon a new case something that -- I've20 talked to lawyers in Washington, D.C.21 I've talked to Mark Sullivan who wrote22 the military divorce handbook. He said, Jim,23 she was wrong. And I said, well, it's going

Page 791 to cost me money to prove she was wrong.2 And now that I've got a case and case3 precedent by the appellate court, I can go4 back and fight for that to be changed.5 But that's -- it's not in Rule 32. Rule6 32 to me is specific. It says any source of7 income. But yet the judge said since it was8 divided as property at divorce it counts as9 property for your ex-spouse.10 And my attorneys fought and said, well,11 then it's property for Mr. Clark. And the12 judge says no. It's income for him.13 So I'm not asking Rule 32 gross income be14 defined any better because I think it's15 great. But I'm asking for a note to be put16 in there that military retirement is income17 for both parties.18 MR. BAILEY: Let me share with the19 committee the cite of Santiago v Santiago.20 That's the case you're referring to?21 MR. CLARK: Yes, sir.22 MR. BAILEY: March 8th, 2013?23 MR. CLARK: Yes, sir.

Page 801 MR. POLEMENI: Yes.2 MR. BAILEY: For the committee members3 that would like to take a look at it, 20134 Westlaw 856670 Al.Civ.App. Thanks. Go5 ahead.6 MR. CLARK: It's also on Lexis, sir.7 MR. BAILEY: I don't want to use my time8 against your time. Go ahead. I'm sorry.9 MR. CLARK: And I just have one question.10 And I'm not sure. But it's for the DHR11 folks.12 I paid my child support within the first13 10 days of the month for seven years. And14 when I went back to court for a modification,15 the judge mandated that I pay my child16 support through Alabama Child Support17 Services.18 So now when I pay my child support in the19 first 10 days of the month, my former spouse20 doesn't get that money until the 19th or the21 20th. And I get texts and phone calls, where22 is my child support, check my child support.23 Why am I being forced to pay for your

Meeting 21


Page 811 service that to me doesn't benefit the2 relationship with my former spouse? Is there3 anywhere that I can't find that allows the4 judge to mandate that for someone who has5 never missed a child support payment?6 MS. BUSH: Well, federal law requires...7 MS. NELSON: Go ahead now. You got it.8 MS. BUSH: Federal law requires that9 every child support order has an income10 withholding order.11 MR. CLARK: Okay.12 MS. BUSH: Federal law also requires the13 office who is holding the orders go through14 one central disbursement unit for every15 single income withholding order. Now, we16 have state law that corresponds with that17 federal law.18 But that is why your child support order19 will have an income withholding in it. The20 judge has discretion to not issue that income21 withholding order to your employer, but at22 any time it can be issued.23 MR. CLARK: Okay. Ms. Bush, in my case

Page 821 I'm retired from the Air Force. I'm laid off2 from a job. Been laid off since 2002. Went3 back in the Air Force. Retired in 2009. I'm4 in school right now.5 My only income is retirement. I write a6 check every month to Alabama Child Support7 Services. It doesn't come out of my paycheck8 because she gets 35 percent of my retirement,9 and child support would exceed the allowable10 government withholding.11 So I have to write a check to Alabama12 Child Support Offices when I would rather13 write it to her.14 MS. BUSH: And you're doing that15 according to the judge's order?16 MR. CLARK: The judge dictated in our17 modification that I pay this service. She18 gave me the address and said this is where it19 goes to.20 MR. POLEMENI: That goes back to Social21 Security Act, Title IV-D and how every state22 has to do that in order to get that Title23 IV-D funding to get the --

Page 831 MS. BUSH: No. I mean, that's a judge's2 order. That's the judge's order that he pay3 directly to us.4 MR. POLEMENI: I understand that. But5 that's being funneled down.6 MS. BUSH: Was DHR involved in your case?7 MR. CLARK: No.8 MS. DAVIS: What you might do when you go9 back anyway is ask to let you pay her.10 MR. CLARK: We asked -- in the appeal we11 asked for reconsideration.12 MS. DAVIS: Well, you're going back now13 anyway --14 MR. CLARK: Yes, I am.15 MS. DAVIS: -- so you might as well ask16 again.17 JUDGE PALMER: Mr. Clark, how I was18 taught as an attorney and how I was taught as19 a judge, is if the income withholding order20 will not be served, that's fine. We21 recognize that all the time.22 If it comes in front of me and I have to23 try it, I don't have any option except to

Page 841 order an income withholding order.2 Now, if I'm wrong, Mr. Bell, or anybody3 please let me know. But as attorneys4 that's -- that's what we were taught --5 JUDGE FORD: Correct.6 JUDGE PALMER: -- from day one in law7 school.8 MR. CLARK: Judge Palmer, neither party9 brought it up. Neither party wanted this.10 And the judge put it on the order.11 MS. CAMPBELL: It's not DHR or it doesn't12 sound like it's DHR. It sounds like it's the13 for the payment center.14 MR. CLARK: That's what I --15 MS. CAMPBELL: The central site. For the16 payment center is paying for the, if it's not17 a DHR case, it does go to ACD which is18 disbursement division.19 And she has the option I believe to20 either get payroll -- she can have it21 deposited directly into her account or she22 can get a check. Is that correct?23 MR. CLARK: She does get it directly in

Meeting 22


Page 851 her account. It's just the delay that2 bothers her.3 MS. CAMPBELL: That's not DHR. That's4 ACD.5 MR. CLARK: It's just the delay that6 causes her financial concern. Because I pay7 it about the same time. I pay it in the8 first 10 days.9 But in talking to child support, they10 said Mr. Clark, you can pay it on the 25th.11 It's okay.12 MS. CAMPBELL: That's why the delay is in13 the mail. It's mailed to Montgomery to ACD14 and they have to process it is what it sounds15 like it is.16 MR. POLEMENI: It is the Feds, not17 Alabama.18 MR. CLARK: But that's not mandatory I19 take it, the judge can do that?20 MR. POLEMENI: No. From the Feds it is21 mandatory from what I'm read.22 MS. CAMPBELL: Only the wage withholding23 orders are mandatory. It goes to the same

Page 861 payment center.2 Now, if DHR is involved, it is going to3 go to the same payment center because -- and4 then come to us.5 But if DHR is not involved, the only6 thing that's mandatory is the payment going7 to the payment center at a central site in8 Montgomery.9 JUDGE BELL: Unless the parties have an10 agreement otherwise, Judge Palmer is exactly11 right. That's my understanding of the law.12 MR. BAILEY: Do you have anything else?13 MR. CLARK: No. I just wanted to thank14 you. This is the first time I've been here.15 I think this is great. Because I think Rule16 32 is a little vague in some areas, and17 you're addressing the areas I'm concerned18 with. Thank you.19 MR. BAILEY: Glad to have you. Thank you20 for coming. And we've got quite a few21 experts in this group.22 JUDGE FORD: Depending on what you're23 calling an expert.

Page 871 MR. BAILEY: Well, in my court somebody2 coming from 50 miles out of town with a3 briefcase. And I have mine.4 Okay. Who is our next speaker from the5 public, please?6 MR. PASCHAL: I'll go ahead. My name is7 Kenneth Paschal. As I look around the room,8 I know quite a few of the faces here. I'm9 with the Alabama Family Rights Association.10 I'm the director of governmental affairs for11 our organization.12 And our goal is to change the family laws13 in Alabama that forces the child to hate one14 parent, one-half of themselves, and also15 places them in a disadvantage in society. A16 child needs both mom and dad.17 So we kind of echo what Mike mentioned18 earlier, shared parenting. That's not an19 issue before this committee, but it will be20 resolved as we meet later on next month with21 our legislators and meet with Mr. Maddox.22 But the laws will be changed come January23 of 2014 where Alabama will be mandated as a

Page 881 starting point to treat parents as if they're2 fit.3 For example in 2011, there's over 20,0004 unwed custody cases in Alabama, unwed births.5 That's just a lot of kids coming through the6 courtrooms. 20,000.7 There's also 21,000 divorces from one8 child in their family to seven kids. Over9 $40,000 kids each year coming through our10 system.11 And we talk about child support here. I12 think -- I'm sorry. Reading the meeting13 transcript from February, I think the only14 training, a lack of, 40,000 kids deserve15 better than what they're receiving here in16 the State of Alabama.17 So it starts with training. It starts18 with -- I like your recommendation about19 creating forms to share with the courts,20 share with the family law attorneys, share21 with DHR so we have at least some type of22 procedure mechanism as a starting point.23 But right now this letter that you

Meeting 23


Page 891 received, I have about 20 in my e-mail box.2 We deal with 67 counties. We don't just deal3 with the Tuskegee area. We don't only deal4 with Mobile. We deal with 67 counties. And5 our kids are being destroyed because of no6 training.7 I had the opportunity to serve our8 country for 21 and a half years in the9 military. But for the last three years I10 continue to serve our -- I volunteer my time,11 no money and travel through each county. I12 haven't made it to Mobile yet, but I'm13 coming. We have to address this issue there.14 But this letter from this young lady15 is -- is -- it's occurring everywhere in our16 counties.17 You mention about how to determine18 income. We have some judges say just give me19 an affidavit. Well, they put any number on a20 signed affidavit. That don't mean anything.21 Well, a young lady in McCalla was evicted22 from her home, four kids. And the judge just23 turned her head.

Page 901 So training, we need -- we need to look2 at our training. I don't think we can do it3 in this forum either. But in subcommittees,4 it's great to hear that.5 One thing I would recommend on this6 subcommittee since it's dealing with the7 healthcare, health insurance, select someone8 with a health background, in that field.9 I know we have a, Dr. Roy, he was10 selected by the governor on two different11 healthcare committees before. He might be a12 good candidate. That's one thing I would13 recommend on the subcommittee is have someone14 in the field.15 And speaking about health committee or16 health insurance, I had the opportunity to17 spend time on the floor here with our18 legislators when they addressed our health19 insurance. And I asked that they go back and20 look at the intent of the bill.21 The intent is not to discriminate whether22 you're divorced or whether it's a child23 support or not. That was not the intent of

Page 911 this bill. The intent was not just for the2 federal government. The intent was for all3 citizens. So we do have to address that.4 You know, if you'd like to know more5 information one-on-one, I'll be happy to6 share that because I work with our7 legislators one-on-one about why that8 Amendment VI was put on the, why they voted9 for it, 58 percent.10 And it was not because -- it was not to11 alleviate or discriminate against our kids.12 You know, if we gonna have mandated health13 insurance, let's do it for every child. I14 think every child should be given the15 opportunity, same opportunity. It's just16 something to look at there.17 And as I look around at the committee,18 the question -- when I first walked into the19 room, I was like I wonder how many of you20 will go to bed tonight and think about what21 we're discussing, how many of you is a22 noncustodial parent?23 So it's good to see the public here

Page 921 because the decisions you make or you2 recommend upstairs to the chief justices is3 going to impact these people. It's going to4 impact another 240,000 that's out there.5 So -- but how many members on -- how many6 members are noncustodial parents? If we7 don't have any, I would recommend that we8 possibly look at that, sir.9 JUDGE BELL: Right.10 MS. DAVIS: Michael.11 MR. POLEMENI: Judge fits that bill.12 JUDGE BELL: And I have been too.13 MR. PASCHAL: Again, as we grow younger14 and our lives change, what is important to15 us? So once again, it's something to think16 about.17 Title IV-D funding, I had the opportunity18 to go to Washington, D.C., in February and19 talk about this issue. I asked them to20 temporarily stop the Title IV-D funding to21 Alabama until we fix this problem for our22 kids.23 I'm heading back in probably September.

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Page 931 Hopefully, when I go back, we'll have some2 information I can share with them saying in3 Alabama we're making progress.4 We're receiving federal money, but5 there's criteria, there's guidelines that we6 must follow. Not, not half but all.7 And one of those requirements is8 parenting plans. We're receiving federal9 money for that. So I will probably head back10 to D.C., next month. And, hopefully, we will11 have a means to -- hopefully, I can give them12 this news. But we have to -- we're accepting13 federal money, but we're not using it for its14 intended purpose.15 But overall I think that training, I16 think -- I think we hit it on the nose,17 training. If you need any input, our18 organization input, please let us know. You19 got the -- Judge Bell, I had an opportunity20 to sit with him a couple of years ago. Great21 guy, you know. No. He is. I heard a lot of22 bad things about him. But I sat down with23 him. And I was like judge is a good guy.

Page 941 You know, I say that. But even DHR, you2 hear all kind of war stories about DHR. But,3 you know, DHR, you're doing the best you can4 with the hand you're dealt with.5 I appreciate the committee, and I6 appreciate what you do. And we want to get7 the public in here more often. Thanks for8 your time.9 MR. BAILEY: Thank you for being here.10 And we always make ourselves available to11 hear from the public at every meeting.12 That's standard operating procedure for our13 committee. We appreciate you being here.14 Thanks for your time.15 MR. POLEMENI: Mr. Paschal, since you're16 going back to D.C., ask for some funding to17 fund that study that we need.18 MR. BAILEY: All right. Any other19 members of the public?20 MR. LANDRY: Boyd Landry, Elmore County.21 I thought the -- a couple of things. One is22 as it relates to tax deductions, the IRS is23 fairly clear as to how it determines tax

Page 951 deductions. And why the state should get2 involved in that I'm not really sure.3 But the IRS on the federal side says if4 you provide 50 percent plus one, then you5 should get tax deduction. And -- now, the6 state would have an interest in terms of the7 state tax deduction, but with that respect on8 the federal side.9 And I think -- I think to solve another10 issue that was brought up today would --11 involves the gross income and people not12 bringing the documentation, standing orders13 that Judge Bell mentioned.14 And I think that the CS41 and the CS4215 don't follow the way Rule 32 is laid out.16 And I bring that point up because I don't17 think that if -- if there's not a definition,18 a 1040 says income from wages. It says19 non-wage income. It says gifts. It says20 gambling. I mean, on down the line there is21 a list of things on a 1040 that you have to22 fill out.23 Well, on a CS41 and a CS42, it just asks

Page 961 for that one number. And so if you want to2 lie, you can do it. But it's a little harder3 to lie if it says wage earnings, gifts from4 other parties, you know, non-wage income, et5 cetera, et cetera, et cetera, on down the6 line, and you've got to physically go in7 there and put numbers.8 Then I think it becomes a little bit9 clearer to both the court and the parties,10 you know, as to what, you know, people --11 granted people will still lie. But I think12 by and large it lays out for the court and it13 lays out for the parties what's required and14 the documentation necessary to prove those15 numbers.16 And I think if we work in that direction17 I think it will become a little bit clearer18 for the court and then the court can decide.19 You know, Judge -- Judge Palmer brought20 up a case. I was involved -- I'm involved in21 a case where the custodial parent didn't even22 bring any documentation, and the court23 ordered child support and said, oh, well,

Meeting 25


Page 971 your numbers are right.2 And I'm having to bring it up and say,3 you know, you can't do that. You've got to4 have something to -- to substantiate a5 number. You can't just take an affidavit6 without anything.7 And that's the problem I think that a lot8 of people are -- are dealing with is, you9 know, because that -- because the custodial10 parent is represented by a lawyer probably as11 a result of the child support that I give her12 and I'm not. Therefore, they must be right.13 Well, those of you that are lawyers and14 judges in this room, lawyers can lie in15 Alabama as long as they are advocating on16 behalf of their client.17 JUDGE FORD: They're not suppose to.18 MR. LANDRY: Hey --19 MR. POLEMENI: It's been done.20 MR. LANDRY: -- come on, judge.21 JUDGE BELL: Are you saying they can? Or22 they do?23 MR. LANDRY: They can, and they do.

Page 981 JUDGE BELL: Well, I tell lawyers in2 every single case, listen. I appreciate what3 y'all do. I used to be one. But what y'all4 say is not evidence.5 I'm going to make my decision based upon6 the testimony under oath and the documents7 that are admitted into evidence. And that's8 how it's --9 MS. MOORE: That's right.10 MR. LANDRY: -- suppose to be. But then11 that tenus thing.12 JUDGE BELL: Ore tenus.13 MR. LANDRY: Ore tenus doesn't get --14 doesn't get turned on, you know, on appeal15 because of ore tenus. But, you know, that's16 the highest burden you have to jump over.17 It's -- it's higher than a tennis net for18 lack -- for a good description. And so, you19 know, I think those are things that need to20 be -- be looked at.21 And on the health insurance question,22 Judge Bell, why should I be responsible to23 pay for the health insurance of my ex-spouse,

Page 991 or a portion thereof when I can't afford to2 have insurance on myself?3 JUDGE BELL: Well, that's the principle.4 That's what I'm talking about. That's the5 basic unfairness built into it.6 MR. LANDRY: And I think that's something7 that really needs to be addressed and looked8 at. Because, you know, we're about to get9 into whole new territory when the federal10 government starts to dictate on health11 insurance. And I think that -- and I want to12 echo the same comments I made back in13 February. I think training is the absolutely14 imperative thing.15 MR. BAILEY: Right.16 MR. LANDRY: I think training needs to go17 from DHR level to circuit level to judge18 level.19 MR. BAILEY: Absolutely.20 MR. LANDRY: And even up to appellate21 level.22 You know, with all due respect, Justice23 Stuart, there are not many of you that are

Page 1001 family court judges.2 JUSTICE STUART: That's true.3 MR. LANDRY: And you're sitting there,4 and you might have a clerk that has an5 interest in family law but maybe not. And,6 you know, decisions are being written and7 decisions are being handed down by people who8 have no experience or very little experience.9 And live in our shoes for a day or two10 and you might find it's a totally different11 world in what we have to deal with as12 noncustodial parents and custodial parents.13 As a noncustodial parent, there's no14 services for us. There's nothing. We have15 to do it all on our own.16 I know the DHR ladies are perking up, but17 let's face it. Let's face it. It's not in18 your best interest to have child support19 lowered. So you're not going to jump through20 hoops to help somebody who wants to get their21 child support lowered like you would to22 collect child support.23 MS. CAMPBELL: I do disagree with that.

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Page 1011 MR. BAILEY: I'm going to give rebuttal2 time. Don't worry.3 MR. LANDRY: I've sort of been there.4 I've seen this live and in-person and in5 action.6 MR. BAILEY: If I could, let me sum up7 one of your points for you, and correct me if8 I misstate it.9 You're suggesting that we take another10 look at the CS41 and 42 forms to further11 specifically identify income?12 MR. LANDRY: Yeah. I think -- I think13 you would find that you might have an14 opportunity to address some of these issues15 with people not bringing the necessary16 documentation.17 MR. BAILEY: Right.18 MR. LANDRY: And you might want to say,19 you know, for wages you have to bring your20 last two months check stubs, you know, and21 the tops from all income sources. You got to22 bring the last two years of tax deductions.23 If you receive interest from some amount of

Page 1021 money you got as an inheritance, you know,2 that's considered income. You've got to3 bring your 1099s for those and on down the4 line.5 MR. BAILEY: Right.6 MR. LANDRY: Let's face it. If you just7 bring a W-2 and you got a raise from the8 state, it's not going to show up until, you9 know. That's why you got to have the current10 pay stubs.11 JUDGE BELL: A raise from the state?12 What state do you work for?13 JUDGE FORD: That's not judges.14 MR. BAILEY: Is there anything else?15 MR. LANDRY: No. I think -- I want to --16 I think it's a tremendous undertaking to17 address these -- these issues. But I think18 by and large you can alleviate a lot of19 trouble if you -- if we got into some shared20 parenting issues statewide.21 I think there are certain pockets where22 that goes on around the state, but it doesn't23 happen everywhere.

Page 1031 And that's -- that's principally, you2 know, the biggest gripe I hear from family3 court judges, and -- I know several of them.4 The biggest gripe I hear from family court5 judges is our dockets are just littered with6 cases. And I think that part of that would7 be alleviated with training and things we've8 already discussed.9 MR. BAILEY: Thank you very much for10 being with us. I think we have some rebuttal11 from this side of the room. Jennifer.12 MS. NELSON: I'll be quiet.13 MS. BUSH: I just wanted to say that DHR14 does offer help with modifications. And you15 can come to our office, and your local county16 office.17 If you have a problem in your particular18 case, it's no -- this is not just custodial19 parent, but anyone who has a problem with a20 DHR case, we have an internal hearing process21 where they can request a review. There's22 several levels of review if you think your23 particular case --

Page 1041 MR. BAILEY: Right.2 MS. BUSH: -- something is not being done3 that should be done, or they're doing4 something they didn't do.5 It doesn't have anything to do with the6 courts. It's just an internal quality7 assurance process that we have.8 MR. BAILEY: Right.9 JUSTICE STUART: I just wanted to make a10 comment so the record would be correct or at11 least clear.12 MR. BAILEY: Yeah.13 JUSTICE STUART: The backside of CS4114 does state all of these different types of15 income that are included in income.16 The front side does provide those to be17 itemized separately as employment income,18 self-employment income, other employment19 related income, and other non-employment20 related income, which is like the gambling21 and the gifts and that type of thing.22 MR. BAILEY: Right.23 JUSTICE STUART: The form requires that

Meeting 27


Page 1051 documentation be maintained, not produced for2 court. And that's something we might want to3 consider is requiring that it be produced.4 I believe the reason that it says at the5 present time maintained is I don't think we6 all wanted all of this put in the court file.7 MR. BAILEY: That's exactly right.8 JUSTICE STUART: I still say we don't9 want it in the court file. But we could10 consider requiring that it be produced at the11 hearing and a copy provided to the opposing12 party.13 MR. BAILEY: That's a great idea. Good14 idea. Okay. Any other members from the15 public? Oh, wait a second. You wanted to16 make a comment.17 MS. DREES: Yes. Thank you. My name is18 Angela Drees, and I'm going to be speaking19 with the AOC lawyer about a client later20 today. So I just wanted to make two brief21 points.22 One of the things that I wanted to do, I23 tried to get her to come herself but she's a

Page 1061 victim of the court system. And so when she2 tells her story, she can't tell it without3 getting emotional. And it's not very4 effective because the message gets lost in5 the emotion.6 But I did want to say it's a case7 involving a lady named Angela Brasfield.8 It's a Tuscaloosa case. She was a pediatric9 nurse. And she had two very small children10 ages two and four.11 Her husband was having an affair. And12 then he went to court in Tuscaloosa where he13 was able to obtain custody of these two young14 children away from Ms. Brasfield.15 When the child support issue kicked in --16 and I guess Ms. Davis touched on this when we17 were talking about how do you find out about18 people's income.19 Well, in this particular case -- and it20 happens every day -- the child support21 discovery process was so aggressive in her22 case that her employer was constantly getting23 subpoenaed and deposed to find the

Page 1071 information that they thought or they alleged2 that she was hiding. So she kept losing her3 jobs, and so was unable to pay her child4 support.5 And then when she was incarcerated at the6 time that she couldn't pay her child support7 because she kept losing her jobs, she came8 out of jail and committed suicide. She9 basically said that was it.10 She was not allowed to see her children,11 and she couldn't pay her child support. And12 she knew her next option was going back to13 jail. So she took her own life.14 So I know these committees, you know, are15 often conducted in a vacuum, but I did want16 to bring up the issue because the mother17 would have been here, but she can't tell that18 story without getting emotional.19 The other point I would like to make, and20 I think this is more in line of why we're21 looking for solutions here. I would22 challenge you to think -- and I'm a trial23 lawyer by trade. I've practiced civil

Page 1081 litigation for 15 years. I've tried cases in2 almost every court in the State of Alabama3 and also in other states from probate,4 district court, all the way up to federal5 court.6 What I would challenge you to is to think7 about one day perhaps abolishing the family8 court system altogether. And I'll tell you9 why.10 Litigation and court is an adversarial11 proceeding by its very natural. And in a12 case like this where the winner takes all,13 there is no resolving cases. The ultimate14 solution is winner takes all. Somebody is15 going to win those kids. Someone is going to16 lose them. And that's what the litigant17 looks at when they see these cases.18 I would challenge you to say that a court19 system, an adversarial court proceeding is20 the worst place to address what we've already21 addressed as complex human emotions.22 You know, you have a car wreck case. You23 may be somewhat emotional about it, but no

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Page 1091 one is taking your children, okay? That is2 not the kind of case that should be put in an3 adversarial proceeding.4 In addition, we have entire industries5 set up that do a much better job dealing with6 these complex emotional proceedings rather7 than adversarial court proceeding.8 Our churches do a better job of dealing9 with these issues. Our psychology industry10 does a better job in dealing with these11 issues. And even right across the street is12 an entire division on alternative dispute13 resolution.14 And if you ask Judith Keegan right now,15 she says most judges don't even go into16 mediation because the lawyers are too busy17 making money off of these types of cases in18 domestic court.19 Now, I know that makes everybody20 uncomfortable because we all have to make a21 living. And I have no problem with that.22 But if 40,000 kids are suffering as a23 result of this adversarial proceeding -- and,

Page 1101 again, there's no way to get out of the court2 system. If one litigant wants to keep filing3 and filing and filing, then you're in court4 and you're in court perpetually, even now5 beyond the age of majority.6 So think about what we're doing. If you7 keep doing what you've always done, you're8 going to keep getting what you've always got.9 I would challenge the entire panel to say10 less intervention, not more. Reroute your11 resources. Obviously, you don't have enough12 on any single level. I haven't heard one13 person say today I've got enough money to get14 my job done. Not one single person.15 So instead of putting more people in the16 court system including 40,000 of Alabama's17 children who are going to eventually need18 jobs and be in positions where we're going to19 need them -- we don't need them in jail. We20 don't need they dead on drugs. We need them21 productive Alabama citizens.22 We're last in the country on almost every23 issue. I mean, if we don't start looking at

Page 1111 it from that perspective, I think we're2 cheating ourselves. And we have can coffee3 all day long, but we're not getting to the4 root of the problem.5 MS. DAVIS: Can I make a comment6 regarding her last comment in terms of the --7 how we should approach the family law area in8 general?9 MR. BAILEY: Yeah.10 MS. DAVIS: This is not adversarial.11 Some of, you know, some of you may not know.12 The legislature just passed the Collaborative13 Law Act this last legislative session. And14 it's for the family law area.15 It does not become effective until16 January 1st, 2014. The Supreme Court17 recently appointed a committee, or is in the18 process of appointing a committee on rules19 relating to that.20 But that will be another alternative. We21 already have mediation that can happen in the22 family law area. But the collaborative law23 was just recently passed to allow that. And

Page 1121 it was exclusively for the family law areas2 and -- family law and also probate with3 guardianships and things like that, which4 hopefully will give an alternative.5 Now, it does require both parties. It's6 voluntary. So both parties have to agree to7 do it. But it is a collaborative process.8 Then can opt in the collaborative process9 or opt out at any point they want to. But it10 does provide a non-adversarial opportunity if11 the parents choose to go in that direction.12 MR. BAILEY: Good point. Thank you very13 much. Thank you. Yes, sir.14 MR. LLOYD: Good morning. My name is15 Warren Lloyd, and I'm a resident of Jefferson16 County. I'm going to try to be very mindful17 of my words as well as my emotions. High18 conflict divorce. Ten-year-old boy. I19 haven't seen him in five years.20 So moving forward, there are many, many21 comments that -- I've made some good notes.22 Some of the notes.23 It started off with a visitation issue.

Meeting 29


Page 1131 And then it turned into a paperwork shuffle.2 And then it turned into the -- got to going3 like a dog chasing a tail. That lasted about4 a year and a half.5 That party didn't provide paperwork when6 it comes to income or financial statements or7 income because they weren't asking for8 attorney's fees because they already had9 millions in their back pocket. I didn't.10 So as it turns out, fast forward three11 years from there, it's been five years, and I12 still have not seen my son.13 I have changed careers. Been with two14 companies in 27 years on straight commission.15 Income is down. I'm a 1099 employee. I16 probably drive, I don't know, 34,000 miles a17 month. And gas is what?18 Part of my territory is the panhandle19 territory, the panhandle of Florida. Gas in20 Pensacola, Fort Walton, that area is 3.69 a21 gallon. We see 3.21 up here, but it's 3.69 a22 gallon there.23 So when you look at these calculations

Page 1141 for child support, there has to be some2 allowance for the judges and courts to3 deviate from those guidelines. And I'm just4 throwing gas in there.5 I spend 800 to a thousand to $1100 a6 month on gas, and that doesn't include7 overnight expense. So it's just a -- but8 meanwhile, I have the receipts. I have all9 the receipts that I have. I got a ton.10 Probably some of them in my wallet right now11 if you want to challenge me. I got a copy of12 two or three receipts in my wallet right now.13 I would like for there to be some sort14 of -- in this global family law thesis that I15 heard about was that there be some -- some16 consideration given towards allowance when it17 comes to expenses for a self-employed person.18 Because prior to being, you know, being a19 stockbroker for 27 years straight commission20 with two companies, I was a commissioned21 employee. I had no idea what outside sales22 was about.23 Am I happier with it now? Yes, I am. Am

Page 1151 I making less money now? Unfortunately, yes,2 I am.3 But -- and I would like to go back and4 address the court regarding this. Maybe have5 some consideration given towards reduction of6 child support because of the expenses. I7 mean, I have a daughter in college also. A8 junior at UAB, nursing student. I mean,9 that's extra expenses there.10 But the other side has no need for the11 income. There's no earned income. There's12 nothing but dividend interest and tax-free13 income from a portfolio of securities. I'll14 never know that. We'll never get to that15 because that's not required on her part.16 But on my part I am required to show that17 information to have a reduction. But I can't18 afford to go back to the court and apply for19 that unless I go to the DHR, one of you. And20 I don't know if I can do that outside of my21 attorney.22 MS. BUSH: No. You can have an attorney23 and still come to us. Our DHR attorneys do

Page 1161 not represent the custodial parent or2 noncustodial parent. You can still keep your3 own attorney and come to us.4 MR. LLOYD: And mediation, I would agree5 that medication is just -- is just another6 way for the legal -- for the institution,7 this institution when it comes to attorneys,8 child psychologists, the guardian ad litems,9 just for everybody to put more money in their10 pocket. I'm convinced of that. I really am.11 Absolutely.12 And I think mediation is just another way13 for continuances to take place. I mean, I've14 had five years of continuances. So I know.15 I'm mindful of this. Because one of the16 interested parties in this case is also in17 this room. I'm being very mindful of my18 words.19 And I think perhaps group training would20 be a good -- training both for the judges and21 DHR as well as the new judges here. And the22 training, if there had been training, perhaps23 we might not have had the problem we're

Meeting 30


Page 1171 experiencing up in Jefferson County right2 now.3 And, finally, the last thing was I heard4 the word "co-parenting" posed to use. I5 would just love that. That would be a very6 nice word to use in these divorce decrees to7 soften the term of the visitation.8 Co-parenting.9 I thank you for your time.10 MR. BAILEY: Thank you for being here.11 Appreciate you joining us. Anyone else from12 the public that would like to be heard?13 (No response.)14 MR. BAILEY: Okay. Anything else from15 our committee?16 MR. POLEMENI: I have one question about17 Ms. Drees' comment. I thought that debtor18 prison was illegal? This woman was put in19 jail for not having, being able to pay child20 support? Is that...21 MS. DREES: She lost her job, so she was,22 you know, she was getting behind. And so the23 ex-husband immediately filed a petition to

Page 1181 have her held in contempt.2 MR. POLEMENI: But she still got put in3 jail?4 MS. DREES: Oh, yeah.5 MR. POLEMENI: I know it was a contempt6 charge. But basically it's debtor's court.7 She wouldn't pay the child support. So why8 was she put in jail?9 MR. BAILEY: Bob, do you have anything10 else we need to cover before we adjourn?11 MR. MADDOX: No, sir. We just need to12 make sure all the members sign the sign-in13 sheet that was passed around that came in14 late.15 MR. BAILEY: Yeah. Let's be sure we sign16 the sign-up sheet. And then, Bob, fill out17 the form for reimbursement for mileage.18 Alex, anything from the court?19 MR. JACKSON: No.20 MR. BAILEY: Certainly are glad to have21 you with us. Hope you enjoyed it.22 Anything else from the committee? Judge23 Bell, I know you want to speak about the

Page 1191 issue that you're driving longer than the2 committee meetings last.3 JUDGE BELL: Right. And I'd like my4 subcommittee, if we can do it, if we can meet5 right now and talk just a little bit, I'd6 like to do that. You know, and I want to be7 careful with my words too. I want the result8 of our work to be meaningful.9 MR. BAILEY: Absolutely.10 JUDGE BELL: I want it to get done. This11 is a great committee. We've got a lot of12 expertise from all walks of life. I think we13 really need to get in, roll our sleeves up,14 hammer this out, make a decision and let's15 try to do some good with what we are charged16 with doing.17 MR. BAILEY: I certainly agree with you.18 Judge Ford and I have been at this a long19 time, since 1980 on this committee. When we20 started in 1980, we didn't have guidelines.21 We didn't have income withholding. We didn't22 have all the things that really assist the23 court system now.

Page 1201 And it took a lot of work and a lot of2 discussion and a lot of meetings.3 JUDGE FORD: Yeah.4 MR. BAILEY: And I think, Faye, I want5 you to give me one figure real quick before6 we go. When we started the child support7 program in 1975-'76, we anticipated and hoped8 the collections would be eight million a9 year.10 What are they now?11 MS. NELSON: Last year we collected 32712 million.13 MR. BAILEY: And that's due to a lot of14 work from a lot people. And it's directly to15 the benefit of the children.16 MS. NELSON: It goes to the children.17 It's not about the parents. It goes to the18 children.19 MR. BAILEY: Any other comments or words20 of wisdom before we adjourn? Anything before21 we...22 MS. DREES: I have just one question.23 MR. BAILEY: Sure.

Meeting 31


Page 1211 MS. DREES: I know that a lot of judges2 and attorneys see a pro se litigant as sort3 of a less-than party in the courtroom. The4 problem is a lot of these folks are having to5 go pro se because they can either pay their6 child support, or they can pay to hire an7 attorney.8 So I think in this particular arena, it9 may be inclusive in the training to say that10 a pro se litigant should not necessarily be11 viewed with contempt. It may just be a12 function of their budget. I think that's13 just -- I know even the clerks don't like pro14 se because it gets discombobulated.15 But I think in this particular field I16 think you have to consider the fact that you17 can't always pay both. And attorneys are not18 cheap.19 JUDGE BELL: You know, I -- and, again,20 I'm trying to be sensitive with my words, but21 judges are getting painted with a broad brush22 that we do not deserve.23 I treat everybody that comes in my

Page 1221 courtroom with civility and respect, and I2 expect that in return.3 Now, are there those who don't?4 Probably. But listen. I think training5 would help a whole lot of that.6 But you've never been in my court. If7 you have, I would hope you wouldn't say what8 you just said. Everybody comes in equally,9 and everybody gets treated the same. And10 that's the way it ought to be as long as I'm11 I'll going to be on the bench.12 MR. BAILEY: Faye.13 MS. NELSON: Gordon, I've heard14 repeatedly in this meeting as well as the15 last -- training, training, training.16 MR. BAILEY: Absolutely.17 MS. NELSON: Training is what we need.18 And, you know, I will sit here and say I am19 committed from DHR's side to see what we can20 do within our funding.21 You know, funding limits probably every22 department that's sitting here as to what we23 can do. We know the need is there, you know.

Page 1231 And I can say from our perspective that2 we will work with AOC to see what we can do3 in the way of providing training to whatever4 population that we can. You know, to say5 that we can meet all the needs that have been6 identified here today through a one-day or7 two-day training or whatever, it won't be8 resolved.9 MR. BAILEY: That's right.10 MS. NELSON: It can be a starting point.11 And we will make that initiative. And I will12 make that commitment --13 MR. BAILEY: Wonderful.14 MS. NELSON: -- to see what we can do,15 you know, to provide some level of training.16 MR. BAILEY: If Faye says it, she means17 it. I can tell you that. If she says it,18 she means it.19 JUDGE FORD: One thing I wanted to20 mention, I think better training through DHR21 or joint training with DHR where we both sit22 down with the county representatives and talk23 about the problems and the issues that are

Page 1241 coming up in our respective locations.2 And perhaps, you may want to look at3 regional training as opposed to one large4 statewide training to look at the cost on5 those type things. But we have a lot of new6 judges on the bench, a lot of new judges.7 And they're doing it like I did.8 Somebody gave them a docket and said, hey,9 you try these cases. And so you're getting10 the kind of results that you're getting11 because they just don't know. They just12 don't know.13 MR. POLEMENI: Along those lines, you14 have the pro se litigant and just the people15 in general that come with a grade school16 level constitutional knowledge that -- and17 over the years working with everyone on this18 committee it's been a pleasure to learn from19 each of you.20 I know that you're doing within the scope21 of your charters or, you know, your job22 descriptions you're doing the best you can23 do. And maybe -- maybe there's something

Meeting 32


Page 1251 that we can initiate to where the courts can2 kind of have some training session for the3 people out there as well, you know, to where4 we can be more respectful all the way around.5 And then on the other issue, Mr. Maddox6 put together for the access and visitation7 committee, a telecom to do our committee work8 on that. And that was very -- didn't have to9 leave the house.10 MR. BAILEY: That's great.11 MR. POLEMENI: So maybe we can think12 about something along those lines and13 having -- and make it open to the public so14 that the public could also attend so they15 don't have to travel as much either.16 MS. MOORE: Mary Moore, Circuit Clerk.17 The Alabama Bar Association has been very18 helpful creating forms for pro se litigants.19 And it may be something that we could20 work with them on a website that will educate21 or have instructions and this is what this22 will do and this court will do.23 Because there are so many times when the

Page 1261 pro se litigants come into the clerk's office2 that they are expecting us to give legal3 advice. It's not that we are -- we're4 impatient with them, but we cannot give legal5 advice; although, most of our -- most of the6 people that walk in are pro se and not7 represented by an attorney.8 So this is a serious issue, and training9 I think would work with that. Or maybe talk10 to them.11 MR. BAILEY: That is a great idea.12 JUDGE PALMER: They have one website13 already called the AlabamaLegalHelp.org, I14 believe. And it has a lot of the forms and15 explains this is what this form does, this is16 what this form does. They have taken great17 leaps with that.18 MS. MOORE: And when people come in, we19 actually hand them to them.20 JUDGE PALMER: Very good.21 MR. BAILEY: Bob, they did a lot of that22 work with the forms committee with AOC. Is23 that committee still in existence?

Page 1271 MR. MADDOX: Not right now.2 MR. BAILEY: There is a committee in AOC3 that has worked in forms.4 MR. MADDOX: We are greatly reduced in5 staff, and we've had to cut back a lot of6 activities.7 MR. BAILEY: Absolutely. Any other8 comments for the good of the order? I'll say9 this. It's been a lot of challenges since10 1976, and I'm a living example of that.11 When I first started in '76 in the child12 support program, I was seven foot tall and13 blond-headed. Look what happened to me.14 Anyway, any other comments? Certainly15 glad to have the public with us.16 Can I have a motion to adjourn?17 MS. DAVIS: Move.18 MR. BAILEY: So moved. Second?19 MR. POLEMENI: Second.20 MR. BAILEY: Motion passed. Thank y'all21 very much.22 (The hearing concluded at 11:50 p.m.)23

Page 1281 C E R T I F I C A T E2

3 STATE OF ALABAMA4 COUNTY OF ELMORE5

6 I, Rena' Messick Lanier, Certified Court7 Reporter and Commissioner for the State of8 Alabama at Large, do hereby certify that the9 above and foregoing transcript of the proceedings10 in this matter was reported by me.11 I further certify that the foregoing12 computer-printed pages contain a true and correct13 copy of the proceedings help in this matter.14 I further certify that I am neither of kin15 nor of counsel to the parties to said cause, nor16 in any manner interested in the results thereof.17 I further certify that I am duly licensed18 by the Alabama Board of Court Reporting as a19 Certified Court Reporter.20 Rena' Messick Lanier21 Rena' Messick Lanier,22 Certified Court Reporter23 (CSR No. 0031)Exp. 9/30/2013

freedom court reporting, inc 877-373-366023 landry, kenneth paschal, roy lloyd. meeting 3 freedom...

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