the rites of springss

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The Rites of Spring

7/29/08

Begin.

I couldn’t really see all of you in the firelight last night so this is like seeing you for the

first time. Welcome, and I hope you feel free to interrupt what is going on at any time andask questions or if something needs clarification please don’t hesitate.

My hope for these kinds of retreats is that it will quickly become so

interesting to everyone that the presentational form will transform itself intoa dialogue among many people.

It seems to me that’s when it happens best.

I don’t think people would be here if they didn’t have strong opinions and ideas

about probably everything which is said. That’s the way the group mind is generated, by

everyone opening up and expressing how they relate to these things that we’re going todiscuss.

I guess the place to start is sort of with looking at the notion that…the dawning paradigm

of post-modern consciousness seems to be the growing awareness that we don’t know

what is happening at all.

That all of the models whose implications have been worked out over the past 500 years

or so have come to a place where they are now recursive and they no longer can be pushed forwards as models of explanation.

In other words they are completed, and ontological analysis of how they work now shows

us the limitations of their application to reality. They just simply can not, there is notmore blood to be squeezed from the stone of science. There may be further discoveries,

but further growth and understanding along those lines now seems

unlikely.

What with complementarity principle, Bells theorem, the primacy of language with theformation of ontology.



All of these things show the relative power of science to account

for reality, where before it was assumed that science would

ultimately give a good account of reality.

So post-modern living is living in the light of the fact that that faith has dissolved away.

And that we’re now living in some kind of intellectual freespace, or fire-free zone whereeverything is up for grabs.

The 20th century’s fascination with the archaic, with shamanism

and breakdown of perception through modern art, exploration of

the unconscious through psychoanalysis, mass politicalmovements…

All of these things relate to this fascination with the archaic which is an effort on the part

of the culture to stabilize itself, because we really have, having seem the limitations of

science, we have discovered we are in a small row boat in a dark ocean and we’re beingswept…we know not where.

So all past tradition is searched, magical traditions, chemical traditions, lost philosophical traditions, pre-literate tribal traditions, everything is frantically searched for

a key.

While there are consoling perceptions that arise out of this search through all this other

extended knowledge, there haven’t yet emerged certain answers

about what is going on.

This is why several people last night referred to how weird the time is. How hopeful we

are with so little reason on the surface to be hopeful. It’s because the gelling out of this

historical problem is happening right now, and it’s not clear what it will become.

Meetings like this are efforts to build an understanding of it.

It doesn’t appear that it’s going to filter down through the transformation of institutions

of control. It appears more like it’s going to be some kind of proletarian upwelling of ashift of point-of-view.



Now the short-hand way of saying what I just said, is that we now know that we don’tknow anything. Things like the psychedelic experience and the use of psychedelic plants

throws open doorways that science was able to successfully keep closed during its hay-

day because they were areas where the number of variables exceededsciences power of description and they said “Well we’ll just keep

driving straight ahead, and we’ll go up those rivers later”

But now that is all changed.

The exploration of the existential dimension of

not-knowingness which psychedelics makes possibleis what is forming modern people, I think.

I mean people who will be seen to have lead lives that were relevant 50 years from now,

or 100 years from now, people who had actually figured out the context of the world they

were living in and tried to come to terms with it.

This morning I think we want to talk about plants and how they relate to the planet, but before we do that I want to paint a picture for you of a mandala which then I will discuss

later in other meetings. My notion of what the post modern persons mandalic projection

on to the world should be in terms of a map of understanding is a quadrated circle

In which psychedelics,

and feminism,

and cybernetics,

and spacetravel

are the four parts of the circle.

And in the center of the circle looking backwards in time there is a category that I would

call conservation.

Which means conservation of the planet,

conservation of traditional and historical knowledge,



conservation of values,

conservation in the sense of intelligence husbanding the planet.

When the mandala is flipped over and you look through it into the future, conservation

has been replaced by art.

Art is the ultimate expression of this transformation of

unorganized matter into ideas, which human beings

carry on.

And we carry it on out of a technical mode of necessity, but in the artistic mode, out of a

kind of upwelling of ecstatic self-expression about the universe.

So conservation is the way we relate to the past and human history is seen as an object of

collective artifice making in the future. Culminating in the notion of the flying-saucer.

To do this, we have to completely re-design our understanding of reality. Which in terms

of practical experience will mean that reality itself will appear to be redesigned.

I touched on this for a moment last night when I mentioned the plants and said

how admiring I was of them because they exist on sunlight, air, and earth, and that this

is what we have to learn to do in order to release spirit out of the ape matrix that

we’re bound in.

Strangely enough the way this is to be done apparently is by a redefining of the nature of

the biological world in relationship to this other kingdom of being which we call plants.

Plants represent some kind of entire other dimension of existence of which we view the

topological manifestation of the form, but are completely occluded as to

the network or energy and information that this represents.

Like the zoological kingdom which has thousands of forms of expression and progressively more complex forms which culminate in self reflecting primates. The

vegetable kingdom seems to have intelligent species and gradations of awareness in the

world so that we are opening a dialogue at the end of history with this other form in the biosphere which we are just beginning to cognize about our own understanding, about

what the world is really about falls into focus.

Certainly 100 years ago no one would have thought that this was in the direct line of



historical development of the high-tech civilizations, that they would have to explore the

mind of the vegetable plant goddess who was the only force contending with them for

control of the planet, that’s what it’s come down to.

So with that kind of idea in mind, the idea of plant and planet, which is a phraseof Anthony Huxley’s which is wonderful. Kat maybe you would want to talk about this,

this is a good

-Kat Mckenna

Yeah I was thinking last night and this morning about plants particularly, because

of our talks that I anticipated and back at the tent a little while ago I had a gnawing

feeling that I was ignoring the animals too much and then I arrived here and they all began to gnaw on me I got about 14 ant bites just sitting, you see the scratching on it, so I

feel grounded again (laughter) I don’t know about having a dialogue with the end of history through plants, I don’t know about that, I do think they are this obviously great

and ever-present mystery that we ingest all day long without thinking of those as plants,

without thinking of them as sacred plants, the way we do the sacred ones. Their

chemistry, their input is influencing us all the time. Whether we eat meat or not we eat plenty of plants, we breathe from them, and we soothe our nerves by seeing them and

being near them and we go out into places like this and see kinds that we’ve never seen

before and marvel at how they can survive. Real models of graceful survival I think.

The jungle where we spent a fair bit of time, the competition it seems is for light and for

protein I guess for organic matter, the animals competing. Here it’s obviously for water,they have a kind of ideal if you look around under the bushes you see wonderful

wildflowers right now, the rains have just held on, the moisture has held on and the short

life cycle plants are going through their intense short life cycle and they often need toshade to do it.

We found something that we were sure was an African violet bush yesterday, you can see

wonderful things if you look carefully and don’t bother anybody else that might be under there.

The question I’ve been asking of my self recently, and of a few other people, nowI have many of you to ask it I hope I get some answers,

is how can a plant be a teacher?

I asked this of someone the other day who deeply involved in neuro-linguistic

programming (NLP) and he got way off on a tangent about “What does this question

mean?” you know (laughter) just throws down every part and phrase and it was



wonderful, we never got to anything like what he thought about the answer but it does

assume all sorts of thing. You have to have an image of what you think of as a plant, and

although we have sort of a language verified easy answer it doesn’t really touch on thereality and then of course you have to think what you mean by teacher.

Well I know there’s at least one serious biologist in the group here so I’m hesitant todefine a plant. I guess from my point of view as an observer I’ve done botanical

illustration and I really value the opportunity I had to really look and then when you think

you really looked, look closer. You can just keep on learning from them just visually,that way…

They are organisms like that that draw in all the elements, fire in the form of sunlight,

and water and air and earth and go through this transformation of energy into somethingelse, in the same way that we do.

This moment right now is when they are doing that most energetically for the

year. They are taking that moisture in their…look at each one, the leaf tips are new, andthe tissue is soft, and the colors are bright as well as the blossoming and all that.

They are also laying out the structure as I understand it for that growth to become more

permanent, or woody, the perennials anyways, so during the year they will fill that out,

and next year they will come from that place doing this envisioning the future, what

they’ll have to deal with, how they’ll move to make their interface with it, and how toreproduce. And their little messages are going into the seeds coming from the pollination

of other plants.

So it’s always like with us, you choose a mate for how you’d like the future to be

right? My genes, your genes, here it goes. Stay on the line.

Really all I have about this is questions so if you don’t mind I’m just going to

throw them out, if anyone wants to say anything, please do.

One thing I wonder is, we regard ourselves as such individuals, we don’t think of

ourselves a species very much, Terence talks about that a fair bit in our daily life we

really identify ourselves as individuals, as some of us having more power, more clarity,more energy, more talent, whatever we divide that way.

With plants we tend to think of each plant on a species basis you know. I wonder how

much that’s true, plants that we’re familiar with like ayahuasca, banisteriopsis capii in the

south American jungle, if you want to make this visionary drink you go and find amember of that species but different members have different potencies and different takes

on the same kind of message. This gets to the teacher part.



A friend of ours Eduardo Luna interviewed a number of shamans in the jungle, they use

this term “plant teacher” in Spanish as we’ve come to use it too and he asked them, do

you think that all plants have a plant teacher in them, or do you think that some do?

And they were divided on this question, some people think that only the sacred plants do,

other shamans said “no all plants do, just some of the spirits (they call them ‘themothers’, the mother of the plant, or the spirit or the teacher) some are stronger”

So that implies that anytime we eat any plant we’re taking in that teacher. They mix these plants with ayahuasca which already provides the vision then they take a new plant that

they don’t know so well, or that they want some particular aspect of and they mix it in

with that and take it and feel that they are radiating, what is that plant?

What is the personality? Whatever you want to call it, of that plant. And that they take on

the qualities of that plant.

I think the Indians in this area did that too with their plants, they wanted to take on thequality of the…peyote is a good one, you know. It lasts a very long time in a very subtle

way doing who knows what all that time when it’s not being eaten by something which ismetabolizing the teacher in it.

Is the teacher in it, when it’s sitting there all that time? Is it experiencing the visions that

come into the animal organism that ingests it? I don’t know

I guess on the species and individual thing I wonder as an edge onto that, anyone whogardens you know when you grow your own plants and vegetables how they taste

different than the ones you get at the store whom are probably grown, certainly with the

same kind of physical care, but certainly not the same kind of attention.

-BACK TO TERENCE

It’s the question for me, or what always astonishes me about it is…

where does the information come from?

I mean, the peyote plant or the ayahuasca vine, or the mushroom growing there on the jungle or in the desert, how did it manage to tap in and become filled with a universe of

alien Platonic beauty?

Why is that there? All the rules of orthodox evolutionary theory conserve only what is



necessary. So it’s very hard to understand why a plant needs a library card at the

intergalactic library. Because it’s just sitting there in the desert of some planet alive and

living.

-Kat Mckenna

But each plant is different too, their library cards don’t take them to the samelibraries even you know, which one of these visionary plants provides something

distinct? And sometimes you can see how it’s a cousin of that one and sometimes you

can’t see that they are related at all.

-Terence

Well isn’t it that mind is, somehow at the reflexive level chemical? That when

you change the chemistry of the engine which is giving the pictures, the pictures change.

Sometimes it seems almost like a biological radio that you tune into very strongly broadcasting stations, some of which are alien high-tech insectiod science-fiction type

places, others are jungle worlds or things that you can’t even English.

-Kat

Giant human teachers, I met one who was 40 feet tall and he took me by the

finger like a little child and let me through, what was that doing in the plant?

-Terence

Yeah what is it for?

-Question asked (inaudible)

When you take a longer slice, you realize that the individual existence is like anillusion and that really the planet is involved in some kind of chemical process which is

like a gene swarming, and it’s been going on for a billion years with more and more…

and animals and plants, as species and as individuals, are just aggregates of genes of varying degrees of permanence.

The individual is a very impermanent aggregate of genes, the species has a slightly longer

duration. What’s really happening is these information transferring molecules are just

swarming on the surface of the planet and controlling, as you mentioned, the weather, the

chemistry of the soils, the rate of heat transfer, they’ve discovered now that plankton



control weather in the oceans by controlling the surface reflectivity that…the question I

think is the peculiar dualism in the world of information.

Why does it seem that reality is not reality? Why are there co-present actually 2 worldsare co-present in our experience.

This is the taboo subject that we’re here to talk about, the weird fact that there are two

worlds, one of which our culture doesn’t acknowledge

but we all experience, that’s a very schizophrenic

situation to be in.

We all exist in both of these worlds, but our language, our culture, our institutions tell us

“No there’s only one world”

We have gotten into this lethal culdesac by not acknowledging the 2nd world we have

veered off on a tangent which threatens our extinction now, this obsession with control of world one, matter, energy, and the complete ignoring of the world of consciousness

which stood in front of it and manipulated it, but just taking that as a given has created

this fantastically imbalanced culture.

-(commentary) “I think that gets back to the plants as teachers because since we do, as in

your words, play with fire as human beings, perhaps the question you were asking as to

the plants being teachers, my feeling at the time was…they are in communication with

us as we are in communication with them, we’re all transparent beings, and you’re

talking of gene swarming on the planet, there’s no safe in which we lock our own human

knowledge, we’re transparent to all around us and if you get into intelligent plants which

is what we were talking about earlier, perhaps, I mean if you follow that logically out,why not have teachers as chemicals? They can manifest within this particular body and

do the library cards as you said.

-(2nd commentary) They realize that we are doers and shakers

-(back to commentary) well I think there is only one life on the planet though, and to saythat we’re separate from the plants or from this or from the air is a fallacy



So that’s a great image, the growing transparency, that’s a good idea for what the

end of history is, it’s that everything becomes clearer, and clearer, and clearer, and as it

becomes clearer boundaries disintegrate and everything is seen to be of the same stuff.

-Kat

I think for much of the world, and still for instance in the Amazon and other

cultures who are tuned into nature, it was transparent for very, very long. Progress wasthe loosing of that transparency and the you know forging ahead of certain parts of it

almost the point of either just eliminating to extinction or to the extinction memory: the

lessons.

One day, I think it was during book keeping or something very much mundane,

the little voice that interrupts every once in a while said that “A plant teacher is a teacher

who has taken the form of a plant” and that raised all these questions for me you know,

does that mean there are teachers floating around looking for places to land, right?

And ways to interface with the other species? You know I’ve always thought of rocks, big rocks, many places in the world you can just sit on them and you can hear them

you know and feel them, really.

-Terence

I’m sure you know Rupert Sheldrake’s theory, well its basically the idea of like

kind resonate together, when I thought about this problem before, about LSD and where

does it fit in to all of this.

LSD is in the morning glories of central Mexico and the far-pacific.

What makes a plant teacher complex is how many people it’s taken. A plant that has been

used 100,00 years is filled with all of the contents of the minds of the people who took it

over that time.

I want to introduce the notion that life, the plants, and the animals are intrusions into 3-

dimensional space of some kind of topological manifold of a higher order.

You see the way in which a chair differs from a giraffe is that if you slice through the

chair and then come back and examine it 12 hours later it will be the same, but the giraffe

will have changed radically.

This is because by cutting into the giraffe you will have intruded into the temporal

dimension of its existence. It is more like a musical note than an object.



It must be born, grow, mature, and die, and that process, growth maturity and death, is

how 3-dimensional beings like ourselves describe the intrusion of these hyper-

dimensional vortices into our world. That’s the mystery of life, it cannot be

encompassed in 3 dimensions.

Life is a hyper-dimensional object, all hyper-dimensional objects are organisms whether they be societies or animals. So the question of “What is the plant” you know when you

ask yourself “What am I?” What you immediately focus on is what philosophers call your

internal horizon of transcendence, you look into yourself to understand yourself.

When we try to describe a planet, we inevitably give a topological mapping of it, how it

appears to us, it’s uptake of minerals, it’s surface reflectivity, it’s weight.

But the plant obviously experiences itself very differently.

All life has an internal horizon of transcendence to which it aims.

Whitehead called it “appetition” it’s inclusion of sensory data out of which it maps being.

But what the nature of this higher dimension is, that these vortices are intruding into our

dimension from, is absolutely anybody’s guess. I mean you can call it a mathematicalconundrum or a religious mystery, but it’s what’s making the world happen.

It’s how the mystery of our being will eventually be shed one more level of veil to let usunderstand it.

You see and organism is a chemical system which does not run down.

The 2nd law of thermodynamics says that the whole universe tends towards the dissipation

of structure and the release of energy in heat and then everything, all structure and allenergy is dissipated.

Life has achieved the miracle of by being an open system and taking material into it, andextracting energy from it, and getting rid of waste, life has been able to leave the main

stream of thermo-dynamic degradation and establish itself at an equilibrium point off that

graph and maintain itself there for at least, on this planet alone for billions of years.

Now the average life of a star in this galaxy is on the order of 2.5 billion years, some lastlonger.

But that means that biology is no epihenomenon, no iridescence off the surface of matter

as the 19th century physicalists wanted to describe it.



It means that life is indicative of higher dimensions which

intrudes into this otherwise thermodynamically degrading

system which we call the physical universe.

Information, there seems to be an informational ghost of this universe which is somehow

co-present at all points within the matrix, perhaps ala Bells Theorem, or something like

that.

And that’s what the psychedelic experience shows you, it shows you a

hologramatic space of information where by sitting still in your room and ascending the

mind you can cross the universe in an instant you know and return.

And the question of “Is this real?” is in bad taste. (laughter)

It violates the 2 ontological categories you see.

It just isn’t done.

But the plants seem to be the things which shake us

out of these cultural conventions.

We have this very bad habit of when we encounter a

new experience we describe it, and as we describe it

we erase its reality, and replace it with a map.

And forever after when we encounter that input, we access the map and overlay over the

things and say “Aha I know what this is” and so by the time a child is 5 years old they

have completely entered into a symbolic construct which hides the real world from

them.

Fortunately these plant teachers seem to have the unique ability of showing you the

relativity of language which for us is the relativity of being.



And then you were freed because you have seen something incontrovertible, there’s no

going back.

That is the great first gateway on the path, to realize the relativity of language and the

malleability of the world.

-(sounds like it may have cut to a new segment, probably not anything significant was

missed)

For instance, coming out in to the desert is a typical of people seeking visions, the first

thing you have to do is leave the (pollus?).

Culture is this effort to hold back the mystery and replace it with a mythology, which is

then in the control of those who recite that mythology whether they be shamans or

priests.

This holding back of reality is what Christian theologians call “The Fall”,

our strange alienation from nature that causes us to

crowd into cities and mint money, and put a price on

everything.

This is why it’s so important to go back to the Amazon, and Eastern Indonesia, to these

places and try and understand what spark it was that those people kept over the millenniawhile we became the prodigal sun and wandered into matter and horde on the cities andthe plain.

We have now come full circle and returned at the end of history with the

dilemma that we have made such a mess of things that there’s nothing we

can do now but lay…

-(Cuts forward in the group discussion)

Each stage is a greater distancing from the wellspring of being, and it’s brought us youknow to the valley of dry bones, to the valley of the apocalypse.

Now the fat is in the fire, now we’ll find out what stuff man is made of as thechickens come home to roost. (laughter)

No, I’m very optimistic! Is it my metaphors or the pessimism? Oh the horrible metaphors

(laughter) Yes well the rhetorical hyperbole, and the unbridled…



-Question asked

Asking about the multiple worlds “It interests me greatly, do you think there are two

world, or do you think there’s many, many worlds?”

Yes well I think you’re right, there are different orders of different worlds. I guess

it was the physicist Weiler who thought that every time there was a choice, the universetook both paths, and had always done this, so that the number and kinds of universes was

staggering.

I find that cumbersome, but there certainly seem to be a number of universes and thereseems to be different kinds of universes, for instance you can tune from channel to

channel but some of them you can’t make heads nor tails out of them you know.

It’s just too far away from your conceptual schema to be…so it’s sort of like watchingideological mandalas or something, you can’t say much about it afterwords, it certainly

was compelling while it was…

One of the weird things about growth, or trying to make your ideas always

become new is that you always assume you’re going to know what the next step is, that

even though you’re going to become more and more enlightened, there won’t be anysurprises. (laughter)

A few weeks ago I was meditating in my usual fashion and I began to get this new ideawhich was so weird that I immediately shifted into “Aha this is not the truth, this is not a

transmission about the nature of reality, this is a plot for a science fiction novel that I

should write” and try to hold that as the defense, that was my shield against the onslaughtof this thing.

I’ve never been one for Atlantis, or Lemuria, and all these invisible pre-historic lands

and places that people enjoy so much, but I was told a very funny thing which I will share

with you, it’s a funny idea.

It has 2 versions, one of which speaks a scientific language, the other speaks a

mythological language.

Ok so the scientific language goes like this: There’s something in the universe called a

fractal soliton of improbability. This means it’s a unicative event, it only happens once inthe lifetime of a universe, you can think of it as a wavelength with one wave. That’s why

its called a soliton.

These things move not in ordinary 3-dimensional space but in some kind of much higher



spatial manifold, and when they collide with the planet, or when one collides with a

planet in the universe the timestream of that planet is divided and two copies of the

entire planet spring into existence without either having any knowledge of it, it just issomething which happens.

This voice was telling me that this had happened to the earth, and that this was the secret

that we were all striving to understand.

Was that an event in the past had actually divided our time-stream, and that a twin of this planet had come into being in another dimension.

Ok so that’s the scientific explanation of it.

So the mythological explanation was that the universe is the creation of a demiurge, not

the highest expression of divinity, but a kind of demon, a fallen creature, and that thisdemiurge was able to coax itself into being, and actually incarnate into history as a

human being.

When this happened, this was then the mythological expression of the fractal soliton of improbability.

When it happened the time stream split

-Kat

The universe was the creation of the demiurge, and the demiurge impelled itself in

as the form of an individual?

-Terence

So the time splitting event had to do with the career of Christ who was an

extraordinary manifestation of energy in the historical time stream, not to be confusedwith a Buddha, or a Mohammed, or a Zoroaster, who were great saints.

It was something else. It was in some sense what it claimed to be, but in some sense. Ok,so now at the moment of, and you can choose either the immaculate conception of the

resurrection depending on which side of the bed you got up on today.

At that moment the time stream split and this other place came into being without having

any awareness, and they were identical at that moment, these two worlds.

Now Christ had no children, what I forgot to say was that the event, the fractal



soliton of improbability has this quantum mechanical half-charge so that in one of the

universes it happens, in the other universe it doesn’t happen.

Everything about these two worlds was the same, except that in one of them the

immaculate conception had not taken place, the resurrection had not taken place.

Now because Christ had no children, the world in which he was absent, it was not

a genetic line which was missing, it was an ideological line which never receivedexpression.

Consequently as time passed, first decades, then centuries, the absence of this

particular intellectual influence on the world changed the world radically in the

following way:

Greek science did not suffer the suppression that occurred with the conversion of

Constantine. The academies were not closed, the hermetic knowledge was not repressed.

Conversly the empire was stronger and was able to repel the barbarian invasions of the

2nd to the 5th century, and mathematics which had halted in our world at Diaphantis proceeded through his disciple Hepacia to develop a calculus by AD 370 so that the

millennium of Christian stasis that occurred in our world did not occur in that world.

As time passed and engineering advances occurred by around 850 AD they had

ships which were able to cross the Atlantic ocean and they encountered the Mayan

civilization reaching its fullest flower in Guatemala and the Yucatan peninsula.

And in fact in this vision I saw the Roman Emperor Cosmodorus the 5 th make a

pilgrimage to Tikhal in 920 to be present at the coronation of a king at the end of that

baktun.

Anyway, this Greco-Roman imperial culture immediately recognized the genius

of the Mayans in mathematics and astronomy and Europe was transformed into anamalgamation, a Greco-Mayan civilization with…(laughter)

So let me see, and this civilization continued to develop. Now one of the influencesaround the year 950 was their extremely sophisticated psycho-pharmacopia and

shamanism.

This mated with Neo-Platanism and Hermeticism, so rather than science



developing as it developed in our world, a kind of magical, psycho-pharmacolitic

technology of thought and understanding was what was developed over the

centuries.

Then in later centuries, centuries before our world they contacted the orient and

the Sung, the dynastic influence of the Sung poured itself into the creation of the globalcivilization such that by around 1200 AD they were able to land on the moon and create a

cybernetic global civilization similar to the kind that we have now.

They continued evolving with all this psycho-tronic and shamanic

derived, and now by this time you can imagine it was an

unbelievably exotic and alien civilization compared to our own.

The fruits of their psychedelic and psychoanalytic investigations into higher space was

the discovery of our world.

They found out what had happened, they figured it out by studying dreams and making

deep journeys into the psychedelic space they were able to discover our sleepingunconscious with its repository of the legacy of the Christian centuries under the reign of

this demiurgic ideology.

They conceived of the notion of saving us.

It has to do with this whole thing of the UFO’s, and influencing

dreams, and astral traveling, and the other side,

is actually the manifestation of this bizarre Greco-Mayan post-

modern star faring civilization trying to reach across the

dimensions to save us from the momentum of our history by

making us aware of, first of all their existence, and then also their

technology which is evolving towards a point where around the

Mayan millennium, around 2012 the time island, we will float pastthe time island and the 2 time streams will be re-joined.

We will make peace with the civilization which is now 1,000 years

more advanced than us with this totally different cultural history

and this completely different take on reality.



So this came to me in the space of about 15 seconds (laughter) and more details

have flowed in, I use it mostly as a meditational device because it’s so interesting to be

asked to be told about how this other civilization developed.

It’s amazing exoticism, its Neo-Platonism, it’s Daoism, it’s Mayan influences

melded into a completely different kind of civilization than the one we’ve inherited, I’ve

always thought that Christianity, without making any judgement about Christ himself…

That Christianity is the single most reactionary force in all of human history, and where

would we be had that 1,200 years not been given over to this peculiar meditation, youknow. All the pieces were in place for the kind of civilization that I’ve outlined, it was

just a coincidence.

Kat does not endorse this idea, or even encourage it

-Kat

He only told it to me a couple of days ago at an Apache junction at a truck stop

(laughter) and he didn’t tell me it’s the plot for a science fiction novel he said ‘it’s thetruth!’ and I said ‘lets get back to a good science fiction novel’

-(Commentary) well the thing is that on our level it would explain perhaps the questionsyou were asking earlier, why would (choose?) plants?

Another thing I was curious when you were talking, the physics nowadays you

can have an electron on one side of the universe and split it into two and separate them ontwo sides of the universe and they are still in communication with each other so is that

why, logically, you can bring the time island back together again?

-Terence

Yes this would be a quantum mechanical super macro-physical Bells Theoremevent, a kind of hyper dimensional vacuum fluctuation where the two worlds spring

apart, sail along for a period then parody is conserved and then rejoined.



-(Commentary again from same person)

This is interesting I’ve had dreams that are parallel, and its very interesting thatyou bring this up, I’ve not heard of it before, another thing I was curious is that this takes

place, this would be on a human experience level, what you’re speaking of. The plant

kingdom, would they remain in connection between the species?

Asks another question about us not having a large number of species of animals that the

other planet would have and how this difference would affect the parody between thetwo.

-Terence

The part of the myth which I didn’t tell you which I will now tell you was that

naturally, they were developing and exploring technical options hundreds of years ago

and they discovered the theoretics for nuclear fusion and fission until they used it, until afew hundred years later one of their great theoreticians, this is after they had discovered

our time stream, made the prediction that the physics of atomic explosions were such thatthey would cross the time stream and so they performed an experiment by detonating an

atomic device which is by our year 1907 and this the Tungusca event.

Then by monitoring the dreams of Siberian shamans they had in clear focus, they say aha,this explosion that we actually set off did occur in both time streams and at that point

they became very interested in monitoring our time stream because they were picking up

the dreams of a Swiss telegraph worker who seemed to be pushing toward anunimaginable conclusion.

So now there is a certain amount of urgency because if we explode our atomic stock pilesit will wreck the place they call “Home world”

Not self-preservation because they have starflight and encompass many systems but preservation of Home World which on the other side is a vast botanical and ecological

preserve from pole to pole, I mean it’s a sacred site of pilgrimage, it’s the home of the

species, it’s the earth.

Suddenly the great notion that parts of it will be blown apart by leakage from hyperspace

of one of our atomic wars is impelling them now to attempt to open the doorway and

rejoin the time streams and will be allowed a few years inside the botanical park toacclimate and then most people will ship off for the stars I imagine.

The British science fiction writer Ian Watson has a wonderful book called

“Chekov’s Journey” in which he talks about the Tungusca event, and his theory is that it

was a catastrophic failure of a Soviet time travel experiment conducted shortly after the

turn of the next century.



asked to explain flying saucers.

It’s like, the flying saucer is a confounding of science in the same way that theresurrection was the complete confounding of Greek stoicism, and democraty, and

materialism in the Roman world. It’s conceivable that the flying saucer, the statistics are

now something like 12 or 11 percent of the American population have seen a flyingsaucers 52 percent believe flying saucers are REEEAAALL (laughter)

And so forth. It is a faith which is percolating up from the lower levels, its people wholive in trailer courts and read Fate magazine who are the (stontioused?) believers in this

thing.

What it may be is an intercession on the part of the overmind, which it can do anything, itcan do ANYTHING from our point of view.

In the most extreme version of this idea I said “What if enormous space-crafts were to

fall into orbit around this planet?” and “What if television images of this craft were to be beamed into every home on the planet?”

Then a teaching revealed some completely mind

boggling thing which you could have thought of

it yourself but you never did, which is always

how these things are.

Then suddenly, then after 30 days of melting the nuclear arsenals and causing all cancersto disappear and curing all infectious diseases and delivering this message the enormous

spacecraft disappears, 30 days…(laughter)

Then everybody says “My god, we have been abandoned, we have abandoned again into

time”

And you know…history would halt, everybody would do nothing but study the teachingsof the saucer and try to figure out how we can get right with them, how we can figure out

how to get them to come back. Dogmatism, theories of communication, priestcraft, the

whole thing.

Though I am fascinated with the flying saucer, and what it says about the

malleability of mind and matter, I think mature civilizations should not be haunted byMessiahs or Flying Saucers. That these things are like metaphysical spankings imposed

from on high that are saying it’s a boot in the tail, wake up!



Stop repressing.

-Kat

Lets take your two ideas, because neither one of them is that old, what does theover-mind have to do with, or think of the double time stream?

-Terence

Now that’s a question I never would have asked. You mean if that’s true? I sort of

think of these as mutually exclusive. I think the demiurge is a negative expression of the

overmind. I think of the overmind as the logos, you know, it’s the understanding and self-existence which permeates everything and the demiurge is the force of matter and time

and cosmic destiny which is always trying to lock in the logos and condition it and make

it subject to the rules of the physical universe of space and time. The logos is like

something from like, this is all Gnostic theology by the way this is just straight from the book. The logos is trying to struggle through the labyrinth of the material universe to

escape, to rejoin the real source of itself which is outside of matter. Matter is viewed asan entrapment.

If any of you have read the late works of Phillip K Dick, he was probing in these areas,

he was a genius, his book Veilus is pure exo-Jesus of internal, unravelment of what wasgoing on.

His take on it was that he believed from AD 69 until 1948, no time had actually passed and that we were living in apostolic time, and that the crucifiction lay only 75

years in the past, and that the demiurge had inserted a false history, and the Nagamadi

manuscripts, he believed, were actually the logos as printed letters and when the Nagamadi manuscripts were deciphered it was like this information creature would come

alive and again be present on the earth.

Like the logos in 1948 was beginning to infuse everything and that shortly it would

dissolve the illusion of the intervening 1,860 years or whatever it was and then we would

realize that the prophecy would be fulfilled and that the last days were upon us.

He didn’t get around to the anti-Christ, to his credit probably.

You have to distinguish between Christ the person, the teacher, and this thing called theChristos, which is the archetype of such power and force that immediately people of ill-

intent could get lined up behind it and impose their will. Yeah sell love, and sell

forgiveness, what a scam.

The Christos is the thing history is ruled by the archetypes which the people can generate,

I mean most people are very ordinary, I mean your McJaggers and your Henry Kissingers

are very ordinary people but



they are able to project an archetype and that is the thing which sets them apart.

And when that reaches the kind of super intense focus that you get in a Mohammed or a

Christ, then you know history is just putty in the hands of the force, not the person, the person is usually martyred in some horrible way. But the archetype draws energy to itself,

and we don’t understand how this process works.

If there ever is developed by benevolent or malevolent forces a science of social

control, it will be a science of knowing how to project archetypes.

Different archetypes apparently are suitable to different times, I mean you can almost

pause at an astrological theory of archetypes, but its something about how…what’s

appropriate for the 1st century AD is not appropriate for the 15th.

When the archetype is appropriate, nothing

can stop it.

The modern term for archetypes is paradigm.

We expect it not to be a person, not a messiah, but an idea which will save us all which

will then give us certain affinities with Mystical Judaism where the Messiah was

expected in the form of an idea, and this is sort of our faith. We are Messianic idealoguesor something like that.

-(brief commentary, inaudible)

Oh I agree with you I think dualisms have to be dissolved in the notion that there

is one thing, you know that’s the Platonic faith. The problem is all these secondary andtertiary operational levels and you know we’re actually trying to operate in a universe of

scarcity and a body which requires energy and all these things. This is really the central

problem in Western thinking, I think.

The tension between dualism and unity and matter and spirit, and how do you do it?



I think we are spiritualizing matter, this is what technology is. The spiritualizing of matter

is the highest expression of our technological output and that this will become more and

more of what this is about, so that in the next century the difference between mind and brain and cell and machine will all have been subsumed under a new vocabulary.

Because we are hard wiring our minds and we are making the artifacts of our cultureintelligent, and we are breaking down the barriers between ourselves and larger

databases, and this kind of thing so that the old “I am an ego inside a skin” definition

gives way to a much more malleable and plastic thing.

-(Commentary) “In astrology, something I like is that the symbol for Pisces is a symbol

with 2 lines and a line going through it, it’s the definition of relationship quality by

opposition, it’s polarity, it’s right and wrong, good-bad, male-female, Russians-Americans.

The Aquarian one which is 2 lines of waves over each other is one of resonance, it’s one

of dolphins jumping in the water together, it’s one of people coming together andrealizing how I resonate with you and what I have to give you and what you have to give

me, but you’ll have something to give me that other people can’t and so on, and we needto swim together.

That breaks down all the of the dualistic bonds, and I think we’re right at the crux right at

the moment, the place between Pisces and Aquarius where we’re kind of 2 worlds again,flipping from one side of opposition, being torn from life and death and seeing, as the

Christ I feel was that prototype, that template, of light and spirit and matter coming

together and saying “I can dance in this, I can leave it, and I can come back into it, I havethis power it’s my conscious compassionate love that is just so unbounded that it give me

the opportunity to play in clay, if I so choose”

Much of what I say is Alfred North Whitehead, his philosophy and believe me if

you’re looking around for a serious ontological foundation you don’t have to readSanskrit, ANW will serve very admirably, science in the modern world, process and

reality. He was and remains the great psychedelic philosopher of the 20th century and the

heir of Burgson. You had another question?

-Yeah I’m going to be 84 in the year 2012 and I’m wondering how to manage my life so

I’ll be ready for the concrescence.

Well I don’t know, I think that the canyons of the creode down which we as individuals

are moving, those walls are getting higher and higher too.

A lot of times when I had this intense contacts with the teaching entity I would



have an anxiety about “What should I do? What is it for me to do?”

And it always said “Nothing, relax”

Your function is to just…you’ll be present where you’re necessary, and this isn’t a

fatalism, this is a kind of recognition of the dynamics of time that the thing is trying to

teach you see.

It’s trying to say that, if you understand how process works you will always understand

where you are in any given process, and then you won’t have anxiety about notoccupying some other point in that process, you know.

When I began having these ideas, the only way I could previously relate to the

notion of the end of the world was that I had a head full of cartoons of bearded men insandals carrying signs on street corners saying “Repent! Repent!” and here was I, former

Marxist, former this former that espousing these unimaginable things.

It’s always good to do your homework, and I discovered there’s this

wonderful book called Pursuit of the Millenium by Norman Comb in which he details thehistory of Milinarianism, that’s what this phenomenon is, belief by a person or a group of

people that the end of the world is about to occur.

It existed among the Jews in the Exilic period, it’s part of the phenomenon, or part of the

social expectation that gave Christ his entre.

The early Patristic Christians lived in the imminent expectation of the end of the world,

and then during the Medieval period the most utopian prophetistic Milenarian movement

before Marxism was Floraism, or the people who followed the teachings of Wakiin of Flora who was a wandering monk who predicted the end of the world, I think for 1244

and he died in 1222, but his followed carried on and the Pope had to send out armies to

quell uprisings as people wanted to distribute the wealth because they felt the end of the

world was upon them and why should anybody go to work you know this sort of thing.

Similarly in the year 1,000 there was great expectation of Christ’s imminent return.

This is the thing which the human mind, at least in its Western expression seems

to seek to do. Islam too has its apocalypses, 1967 isn’t bad, I thought it was happening, Ithought we were months away from a new secular order for the ages.

My theory of history views these things not as evidence against such a thing occurring,but as evidence that it will occur.



That these uprisings, that these outbreaks of irrational expectations of the millennium are

in fact temporal reflections, they are catching the light on the temporal prisons from theobject at the end of history contains the apocalyptic scenario.

It’s very important to manage the apocalypse in the millennium.

It’s very important that people not confuse the

cleansing flames of transcendence against the

ability to use thermonuclear weapons against your

ideological enemies.

It’s a very delicate matter because our mythologies and our fears run so deeply, but I

think that its an awareness of this potential of the existence of this law of temporalcompression.

And of course institutions don’t promote Milanarianism

because institutions want people to invest their money at low

interest and long term, and have the expectation that everything

will carry on pretty much as it has.

An examination of the last 500 or 1,000 years of human history would lead anyone Ithink to the conclusion that everything is going to be swept away, and that everything that

replaces it is going to be swept away, and we are just moving into an era of change that

might as well be called apocalyptic and it must be made Milanarian, otherwise it will justend in some kind of Goterdamuron and the worst boogey men will emerge and destroy it.

-(Commentary)

I know how the wave accelerates and comes towards this transition point, I never

call it the end because then the beginning of a new series of many (muddled?) waves is

there I guess I believe in flux so the whole process is one wave and at that moment we begin another process. At that point we discuss being the end of the universe as you did a

little while ago and sometimes I feel like when everything is accelerated like it seems to

have recently and when you’re close to a moment of transformation of some sort as itseems to be you see great strives forward being made and great slips backward being

made all at the same time right. It seems possible that the transformation will be so

fantastically physical as the end of the universe or turning inside out of the, whatever thisis. But actually as we sweep through world wide peace of mind, what if that occurred?



That’s large enough to qualify, it seems to me for the change-over in the wave.

-Terence

Yeah I think the hardest thing to know is the nature of what this ultimate

compression is. What it means. Like one way I imagine it, and that’s why I love to quote

Joyce about “Man becomes dirigible” I imagine it as “The day when your mind becomesyour home” and all over the world people just realize that their mind is their home.

-“But do you feel free to describe that as the end of history or the end of the universe?”

Not the end of the universe, the end of history because I think history is some

kind of involvement with matter, it’s a wrestling with the angel of matter and the end of

history is when you pin the angel of matter to the mat. Then you stand up and you say “Iam the ademic human being made of light” and you leave the realm of matter and you

return to some previously hidden dimension.

Whitehead called these things epochs, these long periods of time. He called

transition from one to the other “a shift of epochs” well we’ve only been dong things likemeasuring the speed of light since 1910, all the so-called constants of our physics are

based on miniscule periods of actually monitoring these things to see if they are

constants.

So I can imagine it as a shift in the laws of the universe that somehow cause

consciousness to perceive itself more as it must truly be. I am always trying to find physical models for these transcendental hallucinations, the one which fits this is a few

years ago this Scandinavian astronomer called Hans Altden wrote a book called Worldsand Anti-worlds and in it he talked about what’s called a vacuum fluctuation.

A vacuum fluctuation is where suddenly out of nothingness there emerge a stream

of particles and they are equally particles and anti-particles. And they sail along for a

period of time and then they collide again and each particle is destroyed by its anti- particle.

What is called parity is conserved, meaning that when you add up all the charges positiveand negative you get zero. So it’s ok that this matter came from nothing, and returned to

nothing, it violates no laws as long as parity is conserved.

The interesting thing about this phenomenon called a vacuum fluctuation there

seems in quantum mechanics no rule which would limit the size of such a phenomenon as

this.



It’s conceivable that our entire universe is an enormous vacuum fluctuation and its just

you know 10^72 particles that emerged from nothingness and are hurdling through space

and in another parallel dimension the anti-dimension which is the twin of this universe isalso hurdling through space and at some point in future time, completely unpredictable

from the state given within each universe, the two will collide and parody will be

conserved, and all particles and anti-particles will be conserved. However the interestingthing is that photons, which is what light is composed of, do not have anti-particles.

They are this one weird exception. So that when the universe collided with its anti-matter

twin what would be left would be a universe made only of photons, and those photons

would be in the configuration they were in in the moment when the cosmic collapse of the state vector occurred.

Well we have no idea what the physics of a photonic universe would be about, a

limiting case or a good try would be that it is just nothing, no life, no self reflection, butwhy posit that?

There is such a persistence in the perennial philosophy of the notion that spiritual

development is somehow related to light, and to the cultivation of inner light, and to the

creation of light bodies, and to the stabilizing of light.

It’s possible to suggest that the world of the imagination is simply the world of internal

light, that it’s a world where light is manipulated by thought in the way that in this

world physical organism manipulates matter. You live in the radiant castles of theimagination after a shift of epochs in which the photonic mode predominated. That’s just

one way of imagining it.

It’s one of the richest meditations there is, to try to imagine the millennium, again

it’s this thing, what would you have if you could have anything? Sometimes I imagine it,Heronomous Bosche’s great trip to the garden of earthly delights where men and women

of all races mingle among giant wrends and strawberries and feed each other

pomegranates under autumnal sun in an endless rolling park-like world of exotic

vegetables and sexual excess…(laughter) hard stuff to (base?)

You can really take a readout on yourself by seeing how would you like things to

be. I have sometimes my fantasy is “I would like to be alone on a starship 10,000 lightyears from home with all the books in the universe and I would dress like captain Ahab

and I would stride around the catwalks inside this echoing starship and faithful robot

slaves would bring me crumbling volumes of ancient lore which I would say…” no this isa little too Vincent Price.

If any of you are into science-fiction the science-fiction of Cordwainer Smith is

really wonderful, and one of his stories The Starship is really George Washington’s estate



Mount Vernon in New York. And it’s all exactly like Mount Vernon in Washington’s

time except that in the library of the big plantation house there is one room from which

the thing is controlled and its actually a starship in mid-flight.

…More questions about this time theory…

-Yes I had a question, you mentioned how the NOW is flooded with future perception

and I have, its really part of the Tibetan practices, it’s always something which captures

my imagination, how come it’s now, now?

The fact that these future perceptions are so tremendously tangible to us,

especially while sitting in meditation, while taking a meal even or something, and how

come it’s not yet today? And how come it’s not tomorrow? How come I am here nowwhen I just have to flick my mind and I’m in yesterday, and equally easy in tomorrow. I

wonder if you have anything to say on that?

Well I think that life precedes through time, it’s an effort by organism to mapsomething one-dimension larger than itself, so it takes a whole life to do it, a life is an

effort to map a something, and the NOW is the moving edge of the mapping process. You

cannot map it instantly, or you would be it.

So what being in time is, is experiencing the incremental mapping of this higher order

object, and that’s why hopefully a long life would give wisdom, because a person would

begin to get the whole picture.

What did Plato say? The present is the moving image of eternity.

That’s pure good Platonism.

You can think of the NOW as a kind of laser which is moving over a larger surface and

illuminating it, you know scanning it. It’s scanning something and it takes it a while to

scan it, and in the end all the data is in place and you say “Oh yes I see now what the

object of cognition was” and our faith is, and there’s no reason to doubt it,

that this is a great transcendent experience.

This is the peace that paseth all understanding as you sink into death.



It’s just that we like to think that the psychedelic experience gives us preview, no one

escapes the final realization, it’s just that some people do postpone it to their last act,

But there’s no reason for that

Because it is the mystery, the culmination, it is the depalm and the wellspring.

-(Commentary) I’d like to…I’m always interested in pursuing things from the Mayan

days and I’d like to ask about how this theory of time relates to the individual, somewhat

related to BJ’s question, there’s some sense I have that in their techniques and certainlyyou’ve experienced this, and other people have experienced this with the mushroom at

high doses of traveling through time and actually seeing the future or seeing the past. I

was wondering if you could say more about that, and some framework for understanding

how that is possible.

Yes will I think psilocybin seems to be the great teacher of history and part of itsteaching is…it views a person without a history as a person with amnesia, a person with a

diminished capacity because your history gives you your

power of convictions.

The way I use the wave, or the way I’ve been using it recently is I’ve been trying to studythe time immediately ahead of us so we don’t misjudge what is going on, and you know

it’s a mathematical process, there’s no indeterminacy about it, if we anchor the whole

wave system on 2012 and what I see from that anchorage point is in the 67 year cyclefrom 1945 to 2012 we have reached that point which resonates with the larger 4,306 year

cycle at that point which corresponds to the collapse of the Roman empire around 475

AD, in other words, we have been through a period of Imperialist expansionism which

has lasted for a number of years, certainly since the beginning of the 80s, but I see a re-treanchment of that and a recidivus tendency, a tendency towards religious

fundamentalism, rigid social structures and in short the sorts of things which could be

seen as valid resonance patterns to the early Medieval phase of European civilization.

The period from AD 474, lets for shorthand call it 500 AD, the period from 500 AD to

1500 AD, in other words till the discovery of the new world by Columbus, that 1,000

year period is the resonance that we are going to experience from now to the late 90’s,from now until 1998 we will reach the beginning of the Renassaince and the discovery of

the new world,

but we are going to have to endure a period not entirely to our liking, we represent the

pagan Helenistic spirit which has held full sway within the empire for the past 25 years.

We may feel constricted now but I think that our ideas and our position in society hasfurther constriction to undergo before it reflowers downstream a bit.



When I first realized that I felt very pessimistic, then I asked myself “What

aspects of Medieval life could I groove? What aspects of that Medival eschatology weresolitary to my needs and wishes?” then I discovered it was an age of great mystical faith

and illumination, it was an age of communities of like-minded peoples seeking

transformation far from the turbulence of the collapse of the empire.

My theory leads me away from those people in the New Age who think we’re about to be

catapulted into the corridors of power, I think that’s preposterous, and the evidence for it:zero (laughs)

I think better we should tend our gardens and form brotherhoods and sisterhoods of

affinity and realize that the task of transformation is one of a lifetime, our lifetimes youknow.

Every time someone like Dick Price or Tony Lilly moves from the wheel I always

wonder “How did it feel to know it wasn’t finished?” To go with it undone?

I have no doubt that when the saucer comes that Tony or Dick will be in control, one of them. What is it Bob Dylan says in his song? “Ezra Pound and T.S Eliot fighting in the

captains tower”?

But yes so I don’t know if that answered your question but I wanted to get it in becausethe real meat for most people for this idea about time is not the mathematics of it and the

symmetry of it, that’s only pleasing to a certain mentality. But really what does it tell us

about the years immediately ahead?

What it says is “consolidation, illumination, community,

and self-discipline”

-(Commentary) I can always say thanks a thousand times we don’t have to go through it

for 1,000 years, and only for like 15 years, this acceleration seems to be very, veryconvenient. Imagine if we were born in 500 AD and we had to look forward to that

Yes well that’s why I say you know, imagine the

people who lived in times when the temporal river was

stagnant, or even when counter currents swept it

backwards. This is the anguish of the ancestors, this is



the sacred trust that must not be betrayed, the pagrons and

the invasions, and the atrocities conducted across history

can only be somehow redeemed if we, who are the living

way front of this genetic experience do not fumble the ball.

All our ancestors are watching to see how we will do.

Kat

-Kat (referring to the recent commentator)

It seems like you were asking on a more mechanical…how did this happen,

-Commentator “Well yeah how can it be that the Mayans or we on psychedelics cantravel through time and see these things”

-Kat

My image for it that explains that phenomenon to me and I’ve had the sameexperience, past and future, is Terence just referring to the temporal river. It’s a river

which flows two ways, from the past to the future and from the future to the past

And if you put yourself out in the middle of it, let go of control, let go of fear and maybe

you want to choose your orientation, or maybe you don’t…

You can just find out where you float and sort of face the past or face the future and just

float there. I mean this is not a physicists explanation of how this happens but it seems to

work that way you know and we think perhaps far too much of the past creating thefuture and that we should think more, and perhaps other people have of how it’s flowing

the other way.

And this is how some so-called primitive people havemanaged to conserve the very simple effective beauty of

their lifestyle, and that REAL strong feeling that every

moment is now…because they’re thinking of it

simultaneously…



-(commentator) I think about it and that also sets my mind off, you know that’s kind of

like the river is flowing both ways, and if you take a step to the side somehow that you’ll

catch the current from the future. That’s appealing, but I am always playing with these

metaphors and maybe I’m literalizing too much. Is it possible to step out of that stream insome way and then looking above sort of choose where you are going to descend into and

then another image that came to mind was…are there somehow holes in the fabric of

time that you can shoot through, sort of like in 2001 the Stargate opening up and there’sthis hole in between and where you emerge is not the other side of it but some place

completely different

-Terence

If you take the wave seriously and apply it on these short scales of time, you

know you can find your way into unique configurations of the moment, it’s likeastrology in that way. Often the content of a psychedelic experience can be later seen to

be because of the situation of historical resonance that you weren’t perhaps even aware of at the time

-Kat

Or if there are parallel worlds, one or many, which ones happen to be adjacent inthat moment as the cosmic weather comes, you know sometimes I’ve taken the

mushroom just to say like a weather person would say “I just want to see what’s

happening out there right now” not with a will, you know you can find that it’s aboutknitting in your rocking chair you can find that you are just in some landscape that youcouldn’t have conceived of before (laughter)

-Terence

The essence of Dao is the correct apperception of process. That’s what Daoism

is, is to understand processes to be Daoist. I think that this is almost a formal rendering of the notion of Dao, almost an effort to create a mathematics, an algebra of the Dao.

And as long as it’s true to the notions of what Daosim conserves, which is flow,

and determinacy, and indeterminacy, it serves. This is what understanding time is tounderstand process, but to understand it so well that it’s like a sense for you, it’s like

seeing. This is the kind of seeing that is very important, to see into time.

It’s what history and culture have experimented with.



It’s what we now, by identifying that as what is

going on, can accelerate much faster.

-(Commentary) I was picking up a conversation earlier this morning, maybe you couldtalk more about The Other

Oh, the other……well I’m not sure exactly what he meant by talking about the

other, I mean the other is just a way of thinking about all of these things that we name

“spirit, God, demon, void” it’s that there just necessarily is a place off our map, whenever

you have a map it implies the part that is not on the map

The other, the truly other, it lays outside the domain of language, its like the unspeakable,all you can do is point at it, you know.

The Gnostic idea of God was that it was totally other, that there was nothing in thisuniverse that gave any clue whatsoever as to the nature of God. That that was its essence,

to be completely other.

The other trickles through and reverberates in our lives in all kinds of dimensions, thefirst other that you meet is the world, and a later point in your development, your

attachment to another human being can become a confrontation with the other. It’s just a

way of shorthand, signifying, right?

The dimension that carries you beyond yourself into the things that you previously

couldn’t expect or imagine.

Or Vitchkinstein’s Unspeakable or, you know, I’m always fond of quoting this poem by

Trumble Stigny where he says “I lean over your meanings edge and feel the dizziness of the things you have not said” That’s the other, it’s the dizziness of the things unsaid, the

things that lay beyond the edge of meaning.

-(Commentary) Part of the question to do specifically in the mushroom experience in

high doses, this sense of alien intelligence or other, I think that like you said I think that

its some of our conceptions of God, many psychedelic experiences, at least with LSD or other light doses are that I am connected to that, I am part of that thing, but somehow the

tryptamine said its this alien intelligence, I mean what do you make of that?



Well I don’t know what quite to make of that, LSD is self-reflective and

integrative I think. These tryptamines seem to be informational, and largely unconcerned

with the impact that the information they carry has on the perceiver.

I don’t know I think it just must have to do with the fact that the universe is not all

smoothed out and filled in, and that this is really an area of personal exploration whereyou can penetrate into an area, a terra-incognito, a place where nobody knows exactly

what is going on.

We’re not used to that experience. We expect to have maps of everything we look

at and everywhere we go. And it is strange that in this one area we don’t, that apparently

our taboo at looking at the unconscious or delving into the mind has made us content to

just fence off this area.

Well then if you climb over the fence and start wandering around out there, you don’t

know what you’re going to find because the culture has carefully engineered itself to go

around all of this stuff.

Even I think shamanism is largely concerned with gaining power to protectyourself from the onslaught of the other.

I mean, you know they’re very concerned…to hold stuff back, they don’t really have this

“Lets hurl ourselves into it” attitude that we have.

We found in the Amazon, we were looking for this one plant which had DMT in it, and

the ayahuascera that we were working with, I kept leading the questioning back to thematter of this one plant, first he said that it was “comida del perro” food for dogs, which

seemed like maybe a putdown of some sort.

Then he went back over it again and he said “Whoa it’s mallen bizarre, it’s too strange!”

So this was a man who his whole life was about taking ayahuasca and triggering

hallucination, but he felt to go into that plant it was too weird. You often have the feelingwith those people that they involve themselves in the psychedelic effect like a dancer,

almost as little as possible to get the job done.

-Kat (refers to the history of that particular man and his opinions on psychedelics

including mushrooms, and do different things on different nights and he would try new

plants and new combinations, he was pretty intrepid, he did have boundaries)

-Terence

In 1983 or whenever it was that I was down there last we were dealing

with a different group of shamans on the upper Apeyaku and it was to get this orally

DMT thing made from tree resin, and we had pure chemical DMT as a trade item, or we



weren’t sure why but just in case we needed it.

Then talking to the shaman that could make the verolla paste stuff we said this and hesaid “oh you have the essencia, you have the essence!” and we said “so what is that like?”

You don’t take it orally, you don’t take it by mouth, you smoke it.

He said “Oh what happens?” So we described it a typical DMT trip to him and said

“would you like to try it?” and he said “No thank you” (laughter)

So they’re not thrill crazy by any means

-(Commentary) I read the Castenada books he goes into what he calls the old seers andthe new seers, and the old seers, maybe you’re more aligned with them, but they were

more willing to explore any territory, they made a division between the known and the

unknown. It was the new seers that came up with the third category of the unknowable,

in other words there’s this reality which is the known, then there’s the other realities yougo to which are the unknown, which maybe the ayahuascero takes you to the unknown,

but then there’s this other realm where they don’t go, they would probably call theunknowable because the impact it has on you to go there would be dangerous,

-(2nd commentator) From the place of the unknown they could glimpse very briefly the

unknowable, which is usually a pretty shattering experience.

Well that’s interesting, it makes me think of you know I mention Vitkenstein’sUnspeakable I think the unspeakable and the unspoken, and all these esoteric andinitiatory religious numbers are trading in the unspoken, you know you come to them and

they will whisper in your ear the previously unspoken teaching, they will give you an oral

empowerment but beyond that lies the unspeakable which no teacher can orally impart, or impart any other way

because it lays outside the bounds of transmissibility by its nature and to

some degree I would think so, and that’s the thing which you validate, you can onlyvalidate it for itself, in itself for itself.

It is the private object of being, it is not something which I can tell you about or you cantell me about, it’s the private mystery that is ontologically private because it’s

unspeakable.

-Kat

I don’t think what we call the unspeakable is the same as the unknowable, I think that all

of us who have pursued these dimensions have many experiences that it’s very hard to



talk about, or that when you talk about them its very silly compared to what you

experienced, right?

Its on of the challenges of having this kind of group discussion or these kinds of

workshops, to try to talk about that. But there is, I think a big area that just doesn’t

language, the ineffable is all I can think of……

-Terence

Well you can sort of chip away at it, the whole progress of human development is

maybe slowly eroding the unspeakable and turning it into the spoken.

-(Commentary) That is the process of everything from the very beginning to the very end,

we as human beings on the planet are just somewhere in the middle of this process of the

unknowable becoming the known. Tying back to your whole thing with time yesterday,

you say that the physicists are interested in the first second, or parts there or and whatyou’re interested in are the final or coming up moments as things speed up, what the

physicists are looking at is basically the form, but you’re looking at it as the ideas whichare coming into being more and more, time is more and more recognition so it’s really

like spirit, or mind, or knowing, so its like the opposite end, and one is the latter coming

into form in the beginning, and the former is the knowing of all of this just coming to a

point. An ant, or whatever lower level of consciousness, or say a cell, or an amoeba, theyhave their thing, and there’s the unknowable which is what we are acting in. What about

the blood cells inside our body can they know about our world of communication and

symbols, such as we are on this unknowable is really a greater universe, a higher level of just known by a higher way of being, so it’s like each end, the matter here and the mind

coming into it, this point comes shortly, this 2012 is significant in that it is possibly the

opposite end of knowing becoming complete, like life becoming completely aware of alllife in and of itself. But is that the end of everything?

It seems that its just a point, like a mid swing of

the pendulum.

Yes well then some other process having to do with the

career of spirit instead of matter is initiated.

-Yes well that’s the end of everything, it’s a complete end of one way of being, of us a

species as a life development, it’s not just humans, it’s all life, if that life entity goesthrough a great metamorphosis another way of saying what happens to the rest of the

universe is that the universe is a concept in our minds. Right well that’s the

metaphysicality of it.



But to say what’s never been said, to do what’s never been done, to paintwhat’s never been painted, to dance what’s never been danced,

this is somehow you are acting for everybody when you dothat.

It’s an amazing thing to do what’s never been done, it means once you’ve done it, it’s

been done!

-Refers to something like a big fence that is becoming larger and more extensive and the

great minds fence off a particular area where all of humanity can run around and you

know it’s a whole process of…

It’s what aeronautical engineers call “stretching the envelope” when you fly a

figher plane you have the predicted engineering performance characteristics, but onceyou validate that it can do that, then its up to the pilot to find out, to stretch the envelope,

to find out what it can really do…how fast it can turn, how fast it can climb.

That’s what we as creative artists can do for the human enterprise.

The lacking ingredient is courage, I think.

Often I have the feeling that it’s no longer at least in my own life about seeking the

answer, its about facing it.

It isn’t about “Is it yoga? Is it Doaism? Is it this is it that?” I think now I know, at least

for me what it is, but that the answer is so appalling and requires such courage to execute

it and carry it through that I don’t know what to do.

I have no doubt that we could all become the Daoist hermit on cold mountain,

and be that person of whom people in the valley say “Oh him! We see him sometimes

when it snows very deeply, because he comes further down for wood” He comes andgoes in the mist and never talks to anybody, we could all become that person.

There are no barriers to ultimate spiritual attainment, but what about your

mortgage? And your lover? And your devotion to French chocolate? And all of these



things.

That’s tricky. That’s very, very tricky.

For instance like the matter of the flying saucer, I have no doubt that if you took 10 people selected from this group and trecked days east of Death Valley and stayed up all

night and everybody took 8 dried grams of mushrooms and hoped and hollered and

waited that something would happen that would be so appalling and so destructive to our

preconceptions of what’s possible in this universe that you just come out of it pointinginto the desert saying “mmMMM mmMMM MMMMM!!!” (laughter)

I’m careful, I don’t doubt that appalling, appalling, appalling things can happen andreality can be completely pulled to pieces, I don’t know what that means but I really want

to deal with that on my terms. That’s a kind of fear you know, it’s a kind of holding back.That’s why, I know people who seem to me superhumanly reckless, I mean they tell me

the thing they do and I just shake my head, you know because of the power, of the vistas

of the energies that they must have laid their hands on. It’s too much for me, I am a

simple scholar and bookish collector type. I am like Brother John here.

We like our home and hearth. But that’s the challenge you see, that’s the weirdthings of psychedelics. It’s a path, but in a sense it’s the end of the path, and then what do

you do? Now it’s up to you, it’s no more about the guru says “In 5 years you’ll make

progress, or if you just keep eating this spiralina, or fiddling with your crystals” or something, but no, you’ve arrived, now what do you do with it?

Do you really want to be a wandering figure at the edge of civilization glimpsesoccasionally with your tattered clothes and your wild ravings…

-Kat

Nick and I were talking this morning

about envisioning something and how these plants help

you to generate a vision of something real that you want

to create or organize in the world and then they help

you to have the discipline and dedication to carry it out



In the real day-to-day telephone call, how do I get the money for it? Kind of way.

That I think is a real strength for it that all of us have, it’s one of the responsibilities of

being granted the visions is to make the visions then as real as you can.

We do have our bodies here on earth for some time to come, we do have pleasure of

course which we should all indulge in, but we also have responsibility to make it as muchas like, even if it’s a small step, as much like as that fantastic thing we can see in our

visions and I think that it gives you the object then it helps you move towards it, and

we need to do that work and keep refreshing our vision

if it starts to get weak or we start to give up on it.

If we need to shift directions slightly.

-(Commentary) Let me go back to astrology, with Saturn being on a ring around a vision

and then Saturn stairway, envisioning the steps that it takes to get there, and how you

can’t jump 40 steps up without losing part of the foundation, as an artist myself I’mfinally getting to a place of patience that the slower it goes, the better it gets, and my

statement goes “If I only had more time, I’d use less words to write”, I would start using

things carefully, and allowing the process, for years I was just like “I gotta get this out!” but not anymore, I’m just taking the slow, patient steps to create a foundation strong

enough to someday, even if its not in this lifetime to manifest that dream.

-Kat

If you use the quality of your daily life as your currency for how you’re proceeding towards something. If you know the quality of your daily life is good, deep,

and satisfying and you have a goal, you’re probably on the right path.

But if you’re saying “God it’s just going to be hell for 3 years until

I can get this project together” you maybe should think about it

again.

-I could reflect all this on a greater scale to the evolution of life itself, and that if life wereto very quickly achieve the knowing pure spirituality, then what good is it? And that’s

like (through humanism?) and through history and through all of our time, and even this

coming moment 2012, that might just be this reflection of another even ultimate, and itmost likely is, it’s just that reflection, and it’s really endlessly drawn out patient process



is just taking its time as long as possible so that every aspect can work into place.

This quality of daily life thing is an interesting point, because I think it was

yesterday or two days ago we meditated or thought “What would you do if you could do

anything? How you imagine…or if the genie were to tell you you had not 3 wishes butthousands, and you begin to dabble in fulfillment and of course all the trivial and

superficial things I mentioned, palaces and Ferraris and all this, but then things that you

could move anywhere instantly, how would you choose to travel instantly if you couldmove anywhere instantly?

At La Chorrera, these possibilities were to real to us that we actually grappled with it

sufficiently to see how it would develop. How it develops is that if you discover that youcan do anything, the only values which have any meaning, if you can do anything and

have anything, are aesthetic values. If you could travel anywhere instantly, how would

you travel? You would walk…obviously. You know, because it’s so tasteful, it’s so

completing, it’s such a complete reverence for space and time in your body and thecorrectness of the situation. Time and time at La Chorrera, someone would be doing

something some way, and someone else would be saying “Well you’re omniscient, whydon’t you just make it be done?” and the answer is that is crass to do that.

The way to do things, if you can do anything, is to do them right.

-Cooking is like that.

I guess, but that realization of the total richness and correctness of the moment isthat’s the correct interpretation of the attainment of these cities. The things that would go

on at La Chorrera, as an example of how the Dao works, I would walk out into the jungle

and there would be butterflies circling.

I would hold out my hand and speak to the butterflies with my mind and invite them to

come down and land on my hand and display themselves. And the butterflies would dothis, they would come and land in my open hand and turn, and strut, and show me all

facets of themselves, and this would go on for 2 or 3 minutes where I would experience

gratitude, reverence, delight, and then this other emotion: the need to show somebodyelse what I could do.

Then I would walk back to the camp and smiling with a bizarre inward smile I wouldselect one of my campmates and ask them to walk out into the jungle with me. Then to

their horror, I would stand underneath this tree and gesture, and ask for the butterflies to

come down from the trees and land in my hand, and people would just turn away in a

mixture of horror and embarrassment that anyone could be such a jackass first of all, and



that anyone could be so mentally deranged as to operate like that. Of course the

butterflies would have nothing to do with me, I would be left just sputtering and it

happened many times.

It was not only the butterflies, it was that as long as I had no ego I

could work magic, but it was magic that was the necessary magic.

It absolutely had no use other than to make my life a more perfect work of art, as an

example we had a pot in which we could de-vein (…?) every morning it was our magic pot, and the scrubbing out of this pot was a major pain in the neck and was consequently

a rotating camp duty. So at the height of this it was my turn to scrub this pot and I went

down to the little spring where the sand was, and I squatted down by the water and I picked up the sand and I rubbed it on to the pot to get ready to scrub it.

Then I looked and the black stuff was just flaking off, it was like easy off or something,and I just took the pot holding it by it’s 2 little protrusions and immersed it in the spring

like this and looked and all the black stuff was just flaking off and crudding off and I was

just amazed. The magical scouring agent.

So then I went back to the camp and got my most severe critic and again, smiling

with inward benign-ness I lead them down to the river and said “I’m going to teach youhow to wash a pot”, the Zen master you see. So we squat across from each other by the

spring and I pick up the sand I put it on and she says “So I’m supposed to know that sand

can wash a pot?” I say no, look. And again it failed me.

By then I was getting the message, and I stopped…and there was one other instance

which was actually very puzzling because I saw another person go into it too. It had to dowith this prophecy which my brother had made.

One of the motifs which circled in his mind space during this period was what he called

‘The good shit’ and this was, he had claimed, imagined that sometime in the past he hadgot a sample of Afghani hash that had had cow manure, very, very carefully worked into

it and the hash had been infected with psilocybin mycelium and all of the cow manure

had been converted into psilocybin, so he had this psilocybinated hash, and he had thisnotion that he would invent a musical instrument like an electric guitar, which when you

played it, it would cause this stuff to come out of the air and reign down on great crowds

of people.

So anyway there was this thing about the good shit, and one night he announced that the

good shit would appear at a certain time. So then I went back to my hammock in this hut

in the jungle and the woman who was with me came as well and we had no watches, buthe had said that at 11 PM the good shit was going to get here. I was settling down to roll

my evening joint, and it was this Columbian weed that we had brought in with us.

As I lit the joint, this little thing fell out of the end of it on the floor burning, and I picked



it up and I smelled it and it was unbelievable hashish, I mean hashish to die for. I put it in

the pipe and I smoked it and I said to this women, and I said “Smoke this” and she agreed

that it was astonishing.

I looked and opened this baggy with this stuff and started smoking it, it didn’t change it’s

appearance, but the odor and everything was just the most finest hash I’ve ever smoked. Ithought the millennium had come.

At the crack of dawn the next morning I went tearing down to my harshest critic

and knelt beside her hammock and woke her up and said “You’ve got to smoke this!” andof course garbage was back (laughs) I don’t know why I got off into this, I guess it was

the life is art thing and what would you do if you could do anything.

-Kat ‘commentary’

I’m not sure how this relates to it, but I’ll tell it. In the study of Messianic

movements, in fact you can read about this in Sylvia Phrupt’s book Milleniam Dreams in

Action where she talks about a number of millennial religious groups, there was amovement around 1910 in Java called the calloupan movement and it was some guy was

sitting on his porch on day in a hut off in the jungle, and he was playing his flute and

collecting Kopal in the forest there to sell to traders.

As he was playing his flute, he noticed that this bar of rolled out Kopal multiplied

to twice its size right in front of him. Not only did this happen but the same moment ithappened his mind was flooded with the sudden realization of the meaning of the event

that all human lives were now going to be twice as long as they had previously been

before.

He started, he told people in his village and he had the proof this bar of Kopal which was

twice as long as anybody had ever rolled them in the village. It spread from village to

village and before long people from all over Java were vectoring in on this place,eventually the army had to be sent to put road blocks and turn people back, it all had to

do with this piece of resin which had doubled in length while this guy played his flute.

-Kat (proposes idea about how it could be a cognitive hallucination)

The ayahuascero that Kat mentioned she liked so much and worked with in Peru,Don Fidel, he lived off this road we knew and a few miles down this trail, and we went

down there often and we would walk with him back and forth between his house and

where we could catch these little Jimmy busses into town.



And he said one day as we were walking along the Amazon jungle aperpoe of nothing he

said “This is the path that Christ walked when he lived on earth” and it became so. You

saw that somehow this was not a logical statement, this was a statement about thetransposition of time and dimensionality, and that he was living in the light of Christ, that

he was living in the presence of the master through being enveloped in a cognitive

hallucination,

and I think our entire culture is headed for

being enveloped in a cognitive hallucination

where our real wishes will be fulfilled and

that’s why its so important to find out whatour real wishes are.

One of the most powerful forms of yoga, one of the highest forms of yoga is what is

called Yanutatara-Yoga-tantra and it involves a series of visualizations and they say

“Imagine your home as a splendid palace, and imagine the common utensils of your everyday life as golden vessels, vessels of beaten gold encrusted with jewels. Imagine

your rainment made of the finest silk, and imagine yourself as a God centered in the

midst of all of this splendor. This is like trying to induce what is called in Western psychotherapy “A delusion of grandeur”

A delusion of grandeur is when you are a hell of a lot happier other people think youshould be.

(laughter)

Say “What do YOU have to be so happy about?!”

It’s all about infusing the quality of life with greater purity.

We were saying around the fire last night, to greatest way to relate to the millennium is

to make it happen as soon as possible in your life so that you become a spectator to it as a

historical phenomenon.

The way to make it happen in your life is to not transcend desire



but to transmute it so that what you really want is what you

actually have, you know.

-Kat

I found that, particularly on mushrooms, that to will, to choose, to become the archetype

that I of course both have to be able to identify as an archetype, but one that I can relateto or wish to be, and become as large, a hundred, a thousand times larger than we are, and

as smooth, as light, you can practice being in the Dao so deeply in those states, and that

Everything you do no matter how miniscule it is you’re doing it most gracefully, and

everything you say you’re saying most eloquently.

I’ve used the mending-sock thing, because sometimes I think that’s what I’m doing, that

level of work, but that I’m doing it perfectly, and that’s a great feeling.

If you indulge in the feeling of being a Goddess, or a

God or Goddess, or one of whatever you identify

with, you get to choose whatever, then you get to

carry it back into your daily life, and learn to

practice it either

in moments when you’re waddling and you suddenly

need to grow into the situation,

or in moments of ecstasy.

To the archetypes making love is…(laughter)



Well that’s the technique of tantric practice, imagining these Gods and their sexual

console in union…?

(Group takes a break)

-(Commentary) I think you’re dancing around it really well, I think we know something,

a lot perhaps, if words are that important, and do have those meanings, one of it is whatwe’re saying is true, or the sound of our voice that is true, something is true right here.

People are beginning to say the unsayable.

What a feeling it is! (laughter)

We feel the dizziness of the things not said, we feel it,we’re dizzy from it, it’s here.

-(Commentary) Talks more about the unsayable and how it is reflected in our society. “Its

about trust and that leap of faith to the other side to what you can understand, to trust it,as you trust your lover, as you trust a friend, it doesn’t always work out, but trust is the

only way. Otherwise there’s only fear, fear of ourselves, fear of others, fear of ideas. I

think this community is part of that building trust of people who have different ideas.”

-(2nd commentary) You can use a lot of verbiage to explain to people what that search is

about, but in the end communication is…(inaudible) I just want to express myappreciation to those involved in the work, for the sacrament, I just am very deeply

wishing the best, it’s something I missed for a long time, since the days in the 60’s was

the last time I was around people who knew about that work and done in great reverencethat I see here.

The great thing about the psychedelics is that they speak for themselves, so thatthey need no priest, no interpreter, they can deliver their message all by themselves.

Well it’s wonderful that you feel so comfortable with people that you don’t have to rattleon…

Why don’t you lead us Kat in a meditation.

-Kat



Hold hands. We’ve seen many eggs in the last few days and had the pleasure of holding

them and swallowing them. I’ve talked about luminous eggs and feeling very “eggy”

today, resurrection and all that. So I was thinking that our luminous eggs should meeteach other in maybe a less verbal way. Ok close our eyes, and find your center, the light.

Let it swell out into…

(Kat does egg meditation)

Thank you.

-(commentary) I don’t know how to phrase this best, you were suggesting that this kindof visual language, somehow our future lies there, I know Wayes talkes about the future

being light and sound in probably the same way you’re talking about it. I guess my

interest in formulating this question has to do with things like the Mayan hieroglyphic

language system and also Egyptian hieroglyphs, basically a kind of visual language thatmaps Northwest Indian kinds were there’s very particular design patterns. Another piece

of this question is the interface between the past use of that and the future use of thatsomehow. My sense of these hieroglyphic languages used in the past, they would literally

see these things that are being drawn, or these things would speak to them and provide

information as you are talking about.

Somehow as we evolve we’ve lost that ability somehow, or buried it, or shunted it off to

one side. My question has to do with some sense of the re-emergence, or in the Joyce

sense here comes everybody, the democratization of that ability in future cultures.

Yes well I think so, I think that the way that these hieroglyphic languages

especially Mayan and Egyptian differ from alphabetic languages is that etymology

remains on the surface in a hieroglyphic language so that thousands of meanings areimmediately visibly present. It’s more like an ideogram rather than like a word with a

dictionary meaning.

I doubt that a Mayan could conceive of a dictionary of Mayan glyphs because theyinfinitely shade off one into another. That kind of sensitivity to the depth of language and

to the presence of the past in the present, in a word, in what Joyce is trying to do in

Finnigans Wake.

That’s why if you read it carefully, you feel many historical layers of meaning in the

same passage because he wrote it with almost a pictographic consciousness of themeaning of the words rather than a literary sense of it.

Yes in that sense, it’s like that. How this will be achieved in the future in our culture I’m



not sure.

The control of the macintosh through an internationally understood set of control glyphsis very weird and if any of you have worked with a macintosh you immediately see “Ah”

this idea which seems very odd, I could actually learn this very quickly and anyone could

do it, kind of thing, may be pre-sages a world of illiterate computer users whocommunicate with computer through symbols, because literacy has been lost.

It’s very interesting.

-(Commentary) So the computer plays a role in the visual component, I heard you talk

about actually when you asked your question “Will computers become intelligent (tolife?)”

I’ve heard you talk about it more, and that the technology of computers will become

available to us as almost a biological exception from the???

Yes that’s what I think will happen. I mean my vision of a perfect world is

where the earth is restored to it’s pre-historic, endemic perfection but technology has not

been eliminated, it’s merely been micro-miniaturized to the point where the computerswhich maintain the history of the race and the governance of the planet have all been

secreted on a certain pebble which lies on a certain beach somewhere on the planet and

we walk around in perfect harmony with nature and perfect and complete touch with animaginary holo-graphic world that is our self-expression as a city is our self-expression.

To then be simultaneously in the world of techny and in the world of nature, with neither

violating the other, and I think that’s reasonable. I think perhaps in a sense this is what

so-called pre-literate cultures in the Amazon have achieved, that’s what it looks to themfrom the inside. They have an extremely rich inner life, it isn’t maintained by vast

computer networks and projected into holographic space and taped on to magnetic tape

and all of that.

It’s still in feeling, it’s the notion that the richest world is

within.

That you promote a balance with the exterior world, but the purpose of the leisure created

when you have achieved balance is not then to accumulate things but to explore the

interior horizon of transcendence through the recitation of myth, ec-stasis, and this sort of

thing.



-(Commentary) Terence, in conjunction with Roberts question could you further

elaborate this idea of the material externalization of the soul, and the internalization of

the body as a definitive thing in evolution.

I think imagination is where we want to go, that this has become the arrow of our epigenetic development because everybody says “In the future, you’ll have everything

you want!” Well if we believe this then we have to think seriously about “what

everything you want is”

You want plenty of food, plenty of clothes, plenty of money, plenty of friends, but then if

you get all that and they say “You still haven’t even dented your credit account” and you

say “So I want to live in Versailles, surrounded by brilliant robots and I want great

writers and artists to have lunch with me every day, the Hope diamond, and Rembrandts”

Eventually this becomes very silly and instead there is an ascent towards truly grandioseaspirations. Truly bhoddisatvic calling.

I think the imagination is the real frontier,

this is why the poets and the artists are so important.

This is why, I think, one of the aspects of the space thing that is never mentioned by theAl-5 society or any of these engineering types who are so into it, is the interesting thing

about outer space, we are not going to go through space to other worlds, that will be very

incidental to going into space.

Going into space will be going into space, that space itself is a medium with unique

properties for a species such as ourselves, and one of those unique properties is that

engineering, which on the surface of the planet always has to be cognissant of stress, and bearing loads, and limitation of materials, engineering is just going to become like balet.

Objects miles in extent can be created that are obedient only to the laws of the

imagination, of course the funding available to create these things, in other words theconstraints of nature will be lifted.

Outer space will be very much like what you see when you close your eyes in a dark room.



It’s a vast unfilled void into which anything

whatsoever can be projected, the hallucination of

the individual are the cultural artifacts of the species

500 years from now.

All these visions and dreams that we have will been realized, in ways that we can notimagine, but realized never the less. This has been consistently what has been going on,

the alchemical dreams of the 16th century are fully realized in the 20th century you know.

Of course it has facets that they never imagine.

Going into space and going into the imagination is the same thing, in the same way thatthe new world presented a tremendously tight genetic filter to immigrants so that only the

soldiers of fortune, the religious fanatics, and exiles came to this place and that created aunique gene mix.

Space is going to be a much tighter genetic

filter, I mean most people who go are going

to be very smart and very healthy, and

very quickly I think a space-type will arise but I don’t think you can create a space-

based civilization without recourse to

psychedelic plants and the psychedelic

experience, because it’s too much the

same thing.

If you don’t integrate psychedelics into the leap to space and realize that what ishappening is more and more we perfect the aspiration to vertical ascent.

In the myth of Icarus and Dedilus you get this, in the brother Mongofie and their gas-filled balloon, and then the Wright brothers, and then the Apollo project,



all of these things are this aspiration to

ascension.

Apparently it is a biological drive, some people have suggested it is a nostalgia for thecanopies of the rainforest that no longer exist, but whatever it is, it’s going to take us

outwards to the stars and inwards to the stars

The real question mark which hangs over all this is the nature of mind, we do not know

what mind is, and yet everything goes on upon the stage that

is conditioned by and assumes mind as a given.

Every society has assumed that it had the answers, that just

15 years more of fine tuning of the current ideology would

do it. No society has ever been right about that, so why

should we be right?

We are hurdling towards an unimaginable future in the same way that our present would

have been unimaginable to people 200, or 500 years ago.

It is the imagination

because

it is consciousness that is growing andexpanding and strengthening itself.

If we take the notion that these psychedelic plants are consciousness expanding agents,this is what they were originally called “consciousness expanding drugs” if you take that



seriously for a moment, how can you not center it in your life?

I mean obviously consciousness is whatmust be expanded,

as fast as possible at all costs in all times

and places

because it is a lack of consciousness that

will be toxic to our species and the planet.

Consciousness is the saving grace, it has to

be cultivated by any means available.

-You were saying that this urge to ascend is related to this biological urge and that it may be related to the rainforest. What I want to make is that, when we think of going to space

we’re so human centered, yes us as humans can exist in space, but what I think is really

important about going away from this planets surface is that it’s not just a humancentered thing but it’s a totally biological thing and we are just implements of it, we are

the thinking conscious creative tool-makers that will be able to implement getting off this

“gravity trap”, this “gravity well” it’s not just for humans it’s for all life, it will be a

complete synthesis of all biological life off of the planet.



Yes if we go to space we will take everybody with us

-Just like in a rainforest, it’s not just…..it’s everything

That’s right we are the species that is deputized to use energy to do the thing for

all life on the planet. That’s why I’m not pessimistic about history and I don’t see history

as unnatural, or somehow opposed to nature.

What history is, is the process by which the monkeys attain an understanding of

physical processes to build the habitats in to which all life on the planet can then migrate.

That’s what I was talking about this morning when I said “I think the planet senses thefiniteness of its existence and that biology is a wild scheme for getting out to the stars for

dispersal of life” and you’re right, we have great hubris and believe “we are doing this”

and man will go to the stars. It’s more like man is the pecking beak of the cosmic chick

in the egg of life on earth, and the entire bird will emerge and fly but it was man withhis atomic weapons and radar and all this who can break the shell and then the whole of

the biosphere will flow outward into space and escape the cycle of energy degradationwhich will eventually turn this solar system into a group of cold cinders rotating around a

red giant or……something.

-(Commentary) deleted from audio

Yes well we’re trying to compare our maps, everybody has seen different pieces

of a geography whose total size we don’t know. So we don’t know, maybe none of our

maps overlap, or some do and some don’t. Maps which don’t overlap are not invalidated,it just means nobody has been there but you.

I often have the feeling that I am seeing things that nobody has ever seen before,often. (laughs)

Leon asked me to talk about time, Leon is off on alone time so he’ll miss this. The

thing that really interests me or draws me back to the psychedelic experience again andagain is the notion that there’s something you can learn that would somehow have an

impact on society at large that when you have the psychedelic experience, it’s like you’re

a sailor on some kind of a vast ocean where you let down your net into the deeps and thehope is that you will snare an idea of some sort and of some size.

It may be that you come up with the equivalent of tuna, which is many small idea,or perhaps you bring up your nets and see that they have just been shredded by something

so large you scarcely care to imagine it.

The hope is to land an idea of intermediate size that you can then explore and



understand. When you go into that ocean as a swimmer you see these things passing in

review, things of such beauty and intricacy and complexity that you are literally

speechless, and even speechless in terms of an interior dialogue of what you’re seeing.

It just blows your mind and washes past you in such profusion that the notion of

catching seems to be like a child emptying the ocean with a cup. If you have a net, andI’m not sure what a net is exactly, it’s a way of somehow capturing these psychedelic

ideas and bringing them back for examination.

I think part of it rests on a technique of cyclical recitation to yourself of what

you’ve seen so that you carry a vision to a level of reflection as you pull away from it

and then 10 minutes later you tell yourself again what has just happened, then 20 minutes

again so you get a series of telescoping images which are granted a compression of theoriginal event, but nevertheless they bear the stamp of what the thing was.

So the thing of this class that has happened to me is a very peculiar idea abouttime which was developed fairly suddenly as I would imagine ideas develop, in me in the

early and mid 1970’s and then it was pretty much formulated in my head but it took theinvention of small computers to make it possible to write software so that I could actually

talk to other people about this idea.

Since we have no computers and not even a blackboard this will be a kind of feeling toned excursion into talking about this theory of time.

It has an abstract foundation and a practical foundation.

It’s abstract foundation is the notion that time is different than wehave come to conceive of it as the legacy of Western

science.

The legacy of Western science is that time is duration, that time is a dimension

necessary for process, and it’s usually thought of as a flat plane against which some other

fluctuating variable can be plotted. This is called “linear time”

Newtons physics took the same view of space, the Newtonian view of space was

that it was essentially emptiness, it was something which you had to have if you wanted

to put something somewhere, so it was a kind of abstract plenum,

but Einstein showed that space is actually some kind of

thing, it had properties of thingdom,

it is distorted in the presence of a large magnetic field and so it rose out of therealm of abstraction and was cognized as an objectifiable entity, a topological manifold



that was real.

This is, I think, the same step that has to be taken for time, time is not simply the

dimension or duration required for the successive occurrence of occasions, it is rather

some kind of conditioned topological manifold.

We can think of it as a fluid medium flowing across a surface.

A river in other words. In some places the river is very broad and shallow and

meanders because the pitch of the incline over which its moving is so slight that it can barely discern which way to move, you see this often in the Amazon.

In other situations the incline creases and the speed of the flow increases, and the

depth of the channel increases, and the distance between the banks decreases so time runsslowly and it runs quickly. It has a kind of modulated speed.

It’s been a commonplace of Western cosmology since Darwin, although it’s never

been elevated to the status of a law or even a principle that steady complexification has

occurred in the universe since it’s very beginning. That this is something that we see in

the very first moments of physics and preceding right before our own day.

In other words, in the era before physics, that period of time so short that it’s less

than the amount of time for the photon to cross the radius of the nucleus of the atom,

there was absolutely chaos and a complete absence of physics. Then what sprang into being was a physics of pure electrons, of pure energy. It was not for many seconds that

temperatures fell to a point such that other factors could come into play such that free

electrons could fall into atomic orbitals and this sort of thing.

At each successive level of cooling new forms of order became possible, at first

everything was just this plasma of particles and energy, then atomic systems sprang into being. Then at still lower temperatures these atomic systems were able to form molecular

systems, the energy level in the general medium dropped below the level at which it

would disrupt the molecular bond, so then molecules came into being. Then at that pointthere was the aggregation of stars and the cooking out of heavier elements into the

process of cooking out of the heavier elements through the process of cooking hydrogen

so that iron and carbon and these things then arose. By this time the universe is muchcooler than it was at the beginning, then finally you get temperature regimes and

environmental situations where very large molecular colloidal species can come into

being, large prelimerised molecules and this sets the stage for DNA and once it

emerges…and the thing to notice at each of these stages of complexification is that it



requires a shorter time than the processes preceding it.

If the universe is, lets take the long view and say 20 billion (20,000,000,000)years old, then the first 10 billion years not very much happened that was interesting in

the realm of complexity. There was star formation and the percolation of heavy chemistry

but not life but its doubtful that life occurred in the early universe so what we see then isthe emergence of more and more animal forms at a greater and greater speed.

Then finally the emergence of self-reflection in the primates, then epigenetic

methods of encoding information in other words writing, and story telling, and language.

At each point what is happening is there’s a progressive time binding of energy

and a progressive intensification and speed up of certain parts of the universe. Right now

the most complex part of the universe that we know is the human brain-mind situated in

its network of computers and cultural conventions and social obligations and expectationsand hopes and fears and historical aspirations, etc.

This is the realm of the densely packed that the Buddhas are talking about. It

seems to me that this should be seen as an operation of a general law and we are not

outside of this, we are in fact the cutting edge of this.

Somehow, of all the animal species on the earth the human beings are carriers of

this temporal speeding up process which is now engulfing the entire planet.

That’s the general law, or the general perception upon which this idea I elaborated

was based. The notion that complexification is being conserved through time and built upas some quality that the universe is very interested in maintaining.

Then I looked at the I-Ching which I hope is familiar to most of you, I’m sure it

probably is. It’s a very ancient Chinese oracle system that uses what are called hexagrams

which are 6-leveled ideograms of broken or unbroken lines, and the possible subset of these things is 64.

Which is an interesting number because it’s the number which DNA operates on because it uses 64 codons, in fact I came to see that as no coincidence, that actually life

was organized around this number and the I-Ching as well because both were subject a

set of rules which was surfacing in the phenomenon of biological organization and theorganization of a Chinese oracular theory for understanding past and future time.

I looked at what is called “The Sequence” which is the way that you move from



one hexagram to the next, and I sought order there and found order that I think had been

lost since pre-Han perhaps pre-Jo times.

I came to see the I-Ching as we possess it today as an archelogical artifact, a piece

of broken machinery. It’s like the turbine of a jet plane, you puzzle over it and you seethat it can be used for various things and you do use it for something and you see that it’s

very effective but it’s really a piece of broken machinery from a very ancient technology

which ceased to exist before the rise of the Han dynasty. What it was, was like a Daoisttechnology of understanding time, that by the practice of certain techniques whose

historical echoes that I think you get in the stilling-of-the-heart techniques of Vadrianna

Buddhism, these people were able to see into the quantum mechanical foundations of

thought and consciousness.

They noticed there flux which they called “The Dao” and it was a thing which

came and went, the Tao Te Ching says “The way that can be told of is not an unvarying

way” and they stilled their body functions and they looked inward with a cataloging,analytical mentality, they noticed that while this flux was variable it seemed to be not

infinite in its contributing factors but that in fact it seemed to have a pattern and theydiscerned the pattern as revolving around the number 64.

In other words they discerned through this process of meditation temporal

elements that had a kind of ontological validity that the material elements of the

periodic table have for matter. There is not one kind of time or two kinds of time but

actually 64 facets of the possible temporal jewel.

They saw that any moment in time was a combination and the overlay this wave-

system which they called “Dao” and it was a harmonic wave system, it had periods of self-expression which were very short in duration, on the order of seconds or hours or

microseconds, it had levels of expression which were cognizable in the human world

which were years and decades and centuries, and it had vast resonant periods which wereas large as history then larger many times.

Periods of temporal resonance which could only be referenced to the life of the

planet, this is, I think, part of the Chinese notion of the Dao of heaven, earth, and man.

These are different speeds at which thesetemporal waves of conditioning of the world of

phenomenal appearance are moving.

If you take an idea like this seriously, even as a personal discipline of thought to

picture it and visualize it in a Vadryana spirit then you see that what’s really beingoffered is a map of time.



It’s saying that the condition of knowing a fading past and facing an

unanticipatible future is not an ontologically given necessity of existence, that it is possible to imagine an existence in which one saw into time the way we as animals see

into the space in front of us so that we are able to run, and leap, and dance among the

rocks. It’s because we can see into space.

A culture that could see into time could anticipate where the river of

time would flow quickly, where it would broaden out

and move slowly with a rich sense of conservation of

accomplishments achieved. Where it would cascade and break-up its

previous patterns and produce great cataracts of novelty.

A civilization which knew these things, or a person which knew these thingsabout their own life would claim a new dimension of existential freedom for being.

I was having this whispering entity, this daemon, this logos show me these things

and it was expressed on a very, very practical level. I mapped what is called ‘The firstorder of difference’ in the sequence of the I-Ching

That means how many lines change as you go from one hexagram to another. I

discovered that it looked like a random wave, it looked like a stochastic slice. Except that

in the beginning and the end there were tongue-in-groove points that fit if you rotated thething 180 degrees and brought it down against itself.

So that the thing achieved closure at the beginning and the end. This satisfied me

that I was dealing an artifact, that…I was dealing with an organized structure either of nature or created by intelligence.

Then using the principle of hierarchical resonance and stacking of molecules intohierarchies which is really the principles by which all Chinese metaphysics has operated

from the very beginning, I created a cosmic calendar where each level was a resonance

of the level below it, but either collapsed or multiplied by a factor of 64.

I discovered a very…well recall that because the I-Ching is 64 hexagrams which

6 lines in each hexagram, it’s composed basically of 384 “yao” or lines. I discovered that

this number 384 has a very interested property, the cycle of the moon is 29.5 days so thatif you take 29.5 times 13 its something like 383.93



It seemed to me then immediately obvious that part of what the machinery of the

I-Ching was describing in the humanly cognizable phenomenal world was the cycle of the moon using a 384 day lunar calendar which precessed 19 days a year against the

solar calendar. When you take that 384 day unit and multiply it by 64 you get 67 years

and some months and days.

This is exactly 6 11-year sunspot cycles, and China is the first place where we

have the first historical records of sunspots.

So that’s one spot cycle for each line in the 6-line hexagram, and also sunspots

cycles have a greater peak every 3rd cycle so that’s one large sunspot cycle for each

hexagram in that trigram. I saw then that there were these resonances. When you take

that number again 67 times 64 you get 4306 years.

That works out to 2150 years for each zodiacal sign, each zodiacal sign is slotted

to one tri-gram. Notice that all of these things that this resonance calendar is predictingare things that are visible to the naked eye. We’re talking about movements of

constellations, sunspots, and the moon.

I saw then that this was a tremendously powerful natural calendar that was a

technology developed by proto-Daoist central Asian shamanism, very, very long ago.

It had this curious property of when the wave was mathematically analyzed bymodern mathematical methods so that we could draw these maps of novelty we could see

then that it showed just the map of the temporal river from the earliest beginnings to the

collapse of the state vector some time in the future.

So it was obvious then that if we could lay the map over the portion of reality that

we had already experienced, we could then propagate the map forward into the future andknow, and begin to take hold of ourselves in this other temporal dimension.

So it became a question of what is the best fit of this undulating wave of novelty.

I used the world novelty out of Alfred North Whitehead’s philosophy because he

had this notion that novelty was the concrescing of a force which knits things together.



I like that, that’s what I felt it was, that the Dao is making itself and that this

compression of novelty through the speeding up of time will eventually reach a placewhere everything is connected to everything else.

This is the universes’ self-birthing of itself.

Well you must be aware of all these very straight studies which say “If we keep

increasing how fast we go by the year 2020 we’ll go 10 times the speed of light, if wekeep increasing the amount of energy we release by so-and-so we will release the energy

of the sun.

The propagation of all these curves of development become asymptotic and thennobody knows how to interpret what they mean, it just seems to me that the whole culture

is just going to go kazowey, you know.

This is sort of what this theory implies, it implies that far from the universe being

a steady state entity, uninfluenced by the human mind, which is going to go on and existfor billions of years until stars burn out and the 2nd law of thermodynamics is going to

reduce everything to heat death.

That that’s all wrong, %100 wrong and that actually

the universe is made by mind within and without

organism, and that mind is capable of boot-strap leaps in

its organizational self-expression and that we are privileged

to be the witnesses of the final act of life going through

some kind of immense transformative unfolding from itself

in a kind of vortex which has been building on this planet

for billions of years which has been accelerating to such

excruciating intensities over the last 25,000 years that it is

called forth self-reflective intelligence from the monkeys,and the inventions of quantum physics, and spaceflight, and

shamanism, it is novelty upon novelty.

Novelty so intensified that the genetic machinery can no longer carry it and it



bubbles out into the epigenetic into art, and language, and poetry, and religion, and

religious mania and romanticism and all of these things. It is a progressive knitting

together an expression of the universes will to become that causes me to think that wemay be in the shorter “gires” as William Butler called them, the shortening spirals, of this

vortex of novelty and compression.

You see a curious quality about this kind of cosmology that I’m describing, a

cosmology in which each epoch is preceded by an epoch which is 64 times greater in

duration, the curious thing about that is that they only need about 20 instances of

multiplication before you go from a period of time smaller than the duration of plank’s

constant, which is 1.55 x 10^-23, which is a very short period of time.

Then by 20 multiplications of 64 you reach a period of time in excess of the

required time for the age of the universe, a period of time on the order of 72 billion years.

Well if each time the spiral goes into a state of collapse at the end of one of itscycles, in the last 384 days of the existence of a universe like that it would transit through

half of its epochs of transition, do you see what I mean?

It’s like a screaming meme, it really winds up.

The visions which physics gives us, is that the really rapid transitions of phase and state occurred at the beginning of the universe, whole professional lives are

given to discussing the first ten pico-seconds of the physics of the universe.

I don’t care about that, I think that the really interesting stuff will happen in a big

hurry at the end of the universe. The picture which the 2nd law of thermodynamics gives

us of just…(grunts) tumescence, maximum detumescence is what its picturing is allwrong, and that actually this strange hyper-dimensional force in the universe called

“Life and information transfer” is in the process of working itself up into a realtizzy and wrapping all space and time around itself.

What was startling and what made me think that maybe I was losing my marbleswas that when you look at that time that way and push these novelty graphs against the

historical continuum, I reached the conclusion that we entered the last 67 period before

the collapse of the state vector at 8:30 in the morning on August the 6th, 1945 when theatomic bomb went off over Hiroshima, it was a temporal reflection of the birth of the

universe.

You could call it an event which was the reincarnation of the big-bang, because

each cycle begins with a bang, and that cycle, the fact that human beings had used atomic

weapons on other human beings meant that we had entered a new era, a new epoch of



moral danger, and the stakes had been raised by a power of 64 to a new level.

Using the mathematics inherent in the cycle, if you propagate forward from that date, 67 years,

102.5 days you reach late November of 2012 AD.

I concluded based on all factors, personal, historical, and so forth that that was thefit. That if Hiroshima was day 1, then the place where it all came together was this date in

2012.

I worked with that for several years before some kind soul, Henry Mahn I think,

pointed out to me that the Mayan calendar which is a cycle, the long-count calendar I’mnow talking about, is a cycle of 13 time periods which are called bactuns, and the bactun

is 396 years in duration.

After 13 bactuns the world ends completely, and the 13th bactun of the classical

Mayan long-count calendar is the winter solstice of AD 2012.

Within 30 days of the date that I had fastened in on, using a completely different

path of analysis.

So this raised all kinds of questions, one of which is, is it simply that individuals

and civilizations who take mushrooms become…I want to say privy/engulfed by a certainmathematical secret about the cosmic machinery?

What is so important about this date in 2012? You know the meso-American

cultures have the most uncanny history of successful prophecy in the world. I mean theAztecs anticipated the coming of the Spanish, the day, the book of Chilan-Belam, gives

the day when the Spaniards would weigh anchor off the coast of Mexico.

And of course, the fact that it happened exactly as prophesized was a major

undoing of that civilization.

I put this out, this was a very confusing experience for me to channel or transmit

this idea because I was interested in the I-Ching, I had carried it with me in India, I used

to throw it at each full moon, but I was not mathematically inclined and went…(audiocuts out)

Reading the philosophy of science, like Paul Firob and Emire Lacahtosh, and



reading the history of science, Thomas Kunn, and all of those people, trying to

understand you know “What is a true idea?” what is true and what is false?

When you have an idea which makes claims as sweeping as these, then you want

to try to understand just what the limits of knowability are, and I discovered that all youcan require of any idea is that it be self-consistent. That it not generate any contradictions

within its own set of rules, you see.

That’s why astrology is beyond criticism, because astrology is a mathematical

theory with an interpretive exo-Jesus attached to it, who can quivel with a mathematical

theory?

Then the interpretational exo-Jesus has to do with the sensitivity and subtlety of

the interpretor.

Well isn’t this true of mathematical data in

science the same way?

So I discovered that what I had created was a self-consistent idea that appears to be sealed beyond refutation in some weird and uncanny way which makes it seem very

non-human because

you can’t really find your way into telling whether it can be answerable to thenotion of objective truth.

So what I’ve decided about it is, that it’s a

teaching, or it’s a kind of exemplary model of how

all process goes on and it’s a way of learning how

things happen.

To see time as a modulated flux of elements, to see it as a series of waves movingat different speeds through which you are taking a vertical slice and then stacking that

slice and that gives rise to the multiplistic ever-changing flux called “The now”



It is actually made up of reflections and adumbrations of the past, it’s made up of

anticipatory shock waves and intimations of the future.

The past and future are co-present in the now, they are in fact what’s making it

happen.

You can almost think of it as a hologram, or a standing wave, where you two

wave systems—one from the past, one from the future

Where they cross an interference pattern forms which has a curious stability as a

system in, and of itself. Yet it’s almost a ghost created by these other two realities and

that is the moving present.

Mathematically this notion of time that I evolved delivers the map of novelty, a

two-variable flux, a wandering line graph that’s very pleasing for arguing with formulists.

But what lurks behind it and what is so rich for the romantic, and the shaman, and

the poet,

this wandering line graph is the composite of the overlay

of certain historical time periods which are in a state of flux at

various speeds so that they give rise to an endless kaleidoscopic

unfolding in what we call three-dimensional space and of what

we call reality.

This is why I often mention Finnigans Wake in my lectures because Joyceunderstood this, he understood that every moment is caused by everything that happenedin the past, and everything that happened in the future, and I like to give the trivial

example that…you find yourself in Hadrians hamburger joint, this is because the emperor

Hadrian invaded England in a certain year and conducted a campaign.

We are ghosts of past and future events. What the chaos at the end of history thatwe are now living through is, is that for thousands and thousands of years people have

felt a vague thing calling across time to humans, calling us to be a certain way, to practice

certain rituals, to observe the stars, to observe the plants, to observe birth, to observe

death, a calling and that thing which some people have called “God” whatever it is, isthrowing a gigantic shadow over history now, because now the creode of development

that leads to our merging with this thing the walls are very steep, the water is moving

very swiftly, and it’s almost as though the future event is throwing off great sparks thatare themselves faceted contradictory epitomizations of this mystery.

This is what Mohammed, and Christ, and Buddha are. Human personalities that



were situated in time in such a way that they became

macrocosmic reflections of the super-ordinate

edemic humanity that is going to be generated at

the end of history.

We are close, we are close, it is…all of history can be seen as the shockwave of this eschatological event. This is what the prophets were anticipating, the culmination of

man’s God-making effort in time will be the perfection and the release of the human soul.

It’s not that we are doing it, you see,

it’s that a natural law that we were previously

unaware of is inexorably unfolding.

That is what all this cross-connectedness of man into matter, plant into animal,

earth into space, all of this flowing and interconnectedness, this reaches right down intothe rocks of the planet.

This is not simply a phenomenon of biology this is the unfolding of a general law

of which biology is only the cutting edge of a wedge of becomingness which includes all

being and reaches right down into the nutrinos.

It is, you know…to be a being in time is to share in the immense flood of pre-

cognitive anticipation that fills the universe in anticipation of this event, and that’s what

being is and that’s why its so rich and complete within itself, and yet always somehow pointing beyond itself

because

the richness of the matrix through which we

are moving is incomparable and beautiful.



This is the basis of my extreme optimism, I think everything is under control, we

are in the grip of a force so powerful that the notion that we could jeopardize or

overthrow it is completely preposterous because we are acting accordance with aresonance that was set going millions and millions of years ago.

Of course being is fraught with danger, but the stakesare to be at play in the fields of the Lord, to be at rest in the

mansions of the Goddess, it’s soon I think.

At least the historical mimicking of it is clearly soon because the thrust toward the

millennium of this society will not be turned aside, if it is not a law of the universe then itwill become a myth of human beings and will be created anyway.

Since we are human beings I see us as the central actors of that mandala, this isthe task of the next 100, or 500 years to realize the alchemical nature of humanity and

being.

And have everything fused into a super-numinous concrescence that is time.

Joyce said “All space in a nutshell”, all time bound

into a lenticular vehicle that is

both everyone’s

and mine alone,

and yours alone, and yours alone…

What I want to talk about this morning is an idea, I’ve talked about it in a coupleof places, some of you may have heard it before.



I think it bears repeating, it’s a much more serious idea than what I put out

yesterday which had a note of whimsy in its genesis.

This idea is important…whatever that means, because it would change not only

the area of its concern but our view of the world generally.

Easter is an appropriate time to discuss this because it concerns the genesis of

man, of consciousness and self-reflection which is what the Easter mythologian is also anexpression of.

So what I wanted to talk about this morning is a new notion of how human

evolution occurred, what the critical factors were in it and how to draw a picture for us

that shows how our intellectual complexity and symbol manipulating facilities could have

emerged naturally from a background of animal existence and over a fairly rapid periodof time.

Over the last 3 to 5 million years actually the African continent has been growing

more dry and has experienced fluctuations of aridity. Nevertheless as recently as 2,000

years ago the Roman historian Plineah called North Africa “The breadbasket of Rome”

because wheat was being grown over thousands and thousands of acres.

It’s in this same area of Northern Africa, the great rift zone of the Serengeti plain

where physical anthropologists place the origin of human beings and it has to do withthe following sequence of events.

Arboreal primates living in an unbroken continental rainforest ecology achieve aclose adaptation to existence in the canopy and this is stabilized for millions of years,

they are insectivores they have the opposable thumbs and binocular, or rudimentary

binocular vision. The drying up of the African continent caused the breakdown of thiscontinental breakdown of the configuration of patches of forest with the grassland in

between.

In this grassland ecology herds of mammals evolved, proto-cattle, proto-bison,exotic mammals like giraffes and gazelles of all time.

At the same time the primate adaptation to this increasing aridity was to begin todescend from the trees and begin to hunt in packs and to begin to shift from a diet of

canopy fruits and berries, and roots dug from the ground to an omnivorous diet that could

include meat.

So in this situation these tribal monkeys developed a complicated repertoire of

signals to aid in pack hunting in the same way wolves are known to do.



Their habit was nomadic and to follow behind these great herds either killing the

animals that were less well and could be killed by the crude means of their disposal, or living off the kills of other carnivores and this is still the habit of baboons.

Into this situation comes a mushroom which grows in

the manure of the ungulate animals that have evolved on

this plane.

In this protein intensive environment where there is pressure on the availability of

protein, these foraging primates are testing every object in the environment for its food

value.

Rolland Fischer who was a researcher into the effect

of psychedelic drugs and the structure of consciousness

showed that small doses of psilocybin, sub-threshold

doses of psilocybin actually increase visual acuity and he

had a very elegant experiment where

2 parallel lines could be formed by turning a dial, and

you would put graduate students in front of this stoned,

and unstoned, and asked to press a buzzer when the lines no

longer appeared to them to be parallel.

He showed that consistently a small amount of psilocybin allowed you to detectthis change sooner than an ordinary subject was able to.

He said to me that “This proves that drugs give you a clearer picture of realitythan their absence”

What it means is that these primates who were inculcating the mushroom into

their diet were gaining the subtle adaptive advantage over their fellows who were

avoiding the mushroom, because they were gaining in visual acuity which is one of thecritical parameters that a pack hunting carnivore would be subject to in that kind of an



environment.

Without any teleology being involved, without any invocation of extraterrestrial

intelligence we see that a feedback loop was established in the food chain of these

primates very early on.

Those who ate the mushroom tended to survive and outbreed those who did not,

at the same time the relationship between these animals and these herd ungulatemammals was switching from a hunting situation to a situation of domestication.

Which was bringing the mushroom ever more into the fore, if you look back at thearcheological evidence in North Africa, especially the paintings, the late Neolithic

paintings on the Facile Plateau in Southern Nigeria you see there magnificently portrayed

herds of cattle, beautifully painted.

More sensitively portrayed cattle than you find at

Alta-mera and Lascoh, and you see also shamans dancing

with mushrooms sprouting out of their body and

mushrooms clutched in their hands, groups of them running

holding on high with geometric matrices of connected dots

all around them.

Now of course in that area its very similar to this, its an area of sculpted sand

stone, and cross-cut arroyos with undercuts cliffs. It’s very dry, but in some places the

Neolithic detritus is several meters deep.

The people who lived in the Facile Plateau when the aridity of the Sahara further

increased are the people who migrated east to the Nile and established the proto-Egyptian

civilization 6 to 10 thousand years ago.

The important point I want to make about this later phase of the human

involvement with the mushroom was that it was always intimately connected with cattle.

And that the Goddess religions of Ancient North Africa and the Middle East are



religions of cattle Goddesses, and this connection between the cow and

the mother Goddess and the mushroom is some kind of key to understanding theevolution of religious sensitivity in early man and that part of the middle east.

It carries forward into historical time with themysteries at Eluisis where there is a clear indication that a

psychedelic substance is being used.

Either an ergotized rye or a mushroom of some sort.

This notion it was the presence of the mushroom on the African veldt at a critical

bifurcation of primate evolution that created the feedback loop which eventually

developed into self-reflecting consciousness.

You see at lower doses the psilocybin is giving

increased visual acuity and it seems like increased symbol

processing ability, it’s strange effect on the language

centers.

But of course inevitably they would havediscovered it’s higher dose effects which would be to

convey then into an inner tremendom which became

then the cultural guiding image.

In other words it was perceived as a God, as a Goddess, as the Goddess and

became then the arrow for cultural dynamics and evolution.

The reason I think this is important is because the spin off implications of the

acceptance of an idea like this would bring us into much greater harmony with our environment.

We sort of have the anxiety of an orphan about our origins because our best people in physical anthropology don’t give very good accounts.



Can’t seem to make sense of how we could have been

forced out and emerged out of primate organization.

So there’s been much talk in the 20th century for the search for the missing link

which has always been conceived of a physical skeleton of a certain kind of intermediate

homonoid form, it isn’t a missing link I think, it’s a missing factor.

And the factor which forwarded the evolution of the brain size of this particular

primate line was the inclusion of psychedelic plants in the diet,

which then fed the tendency towards symbol formation and

self-reflection.

If this idea gained wide acceptance, some of our laws and some of our ways of

relating to nature and to medicine plants in particular would have to be altered and brought into line.

This is the source of our humanness.

Apparently the psychoactive compounds being elaborated by plants throughoutnature are regulators of various forms of evolution in animals, and food chains and all

this which appear very trivial on the surface are actually the message bearing medium

of the hand of God which is forming and sculpting nature along these various creodes of development.

The thing to understand about this, or why this has impact in the future is becauseit’s a continuous process which we can foster and husband and help develop in healthy

ways if we recognize that it’s going on.

I mentioned Eluisis as this kind of thing going on in historical time, also Soma,

the sacrament of the Vedic civilization appears to have been a mushroom, was certainly a

psychedelic plant. It wasn’t only psychedelic plants but all plants which affect and shiftconsciousness.

I mean a history of the human race can be written analyzing it not it terms of class struggle of the impact of great personalities

but as a shifting set of interactions between sugar, tobacco, opium, caffeine,



alcohol, and psychedelics so that we need to understand that these foods and drugs and

spices, we have subtly overlooked them and taken them for granted.

They have regulated human history, and individual self-expression, how much

you know, how you look, how pure your transmission of your genetic heritage to the next

generation, all of these things are being regulated and controlled by these plants in thisway

Now if we could create a civilization or even a clique within a civilization that

understood this and that had its fingers on a vertical monopoly of research from the

jungle to the clinical hospital, great things could be understood.

This is the way to do it, to systematically explore these

relationships and see that Gaia apparently works throughthe intercession of catalytic compounds that convey

revelation, and revelation is then the factor which has

historical impact.

The people, the messiahs, and the teachers are merely the pipeline for ideas and

the metabolic release of these ideas in the macro-environment is being controlled by the plant-animal interaction.

So it will be on into the foreseeable future, and by understanding this a kind of

new science looms into view. A kind of integrated dynamical understanding of the flux of

energy mediated by chemistry in the environment so that the guiding image of culture

can be revitalized and realized in a much shorter period of time.

This whole shortening period of time thing has also been going on for a while.

You see it isn’t astonishing I think that self-reflection

could emerge given basic primate organization, but what is

astonishing about it is the speed with which it happened.



separate ontological status.

We are different and why, and for what?

I think that probably we are the agent of change that Gaia has unleashed upon

herself, that the planet itself is awareness of the finiteness of planetary existence.

Its sort of like the story of the ant and the grasshopper.

You can have a planetary consciousness which says “Well I look forward to 3 to 5

billion years of sentient existence then I am willing to be extinguished with the death of my star” or you can have a planet with an ant-like mentality that says “I can sense winter

coming 3 to 5 billion years down the line and I’m going to organize some wild strategy to

break through the tyranny of the energy cycle of one star and I’m going to organize

biological existence so that greater and greater amounts of energy can be brought under control so that eventually a kind of liberation can occur where life can burst out of the

planetary cradle and disperse itself through the universe”

There are apparently several strategies for this, one is evolving intelligence and

build starships, another is become a mushroom and produce 3 to 5 million spores per minute during sporulation, they are particles small enough to percolate by Brownian

movement away from the atmosphere of the given planet and by sheer numbers, and the

slow gradiant and drift by light pressure and that sort of thing, emanate through theuniverse, and establish yourself in any planetary regime that is suitable.

The obvious next great revelation in biology, and it’s strange that we can state it

because once it’s stated by Carl Sagan it would be headlines everywhere, but it’s obvious

that space is no barrier to life.

It’s a barrier, in the same way that the Pacific Ocean was a barrier to life’s

colonization of the Hawaiian islands, but that’s all.

It’s just a tight filter, but spores and starships, and shamans probably get through

to other closed topologies in orbit around other stars. There must be a dimensionsomewhere where all surfaces in the universe are contigous, and if you could move into

that dimension you could just walk to Zeta-Reticulae.

So the means by which life will penetrate these larger dimensions that free it

from it’s dependency on the energy cycles of the material universe are not by any means

clear.



It may be that it’s about organizing the mind and building an inner vehicle and

moves off into the imagination. The imagination may be, in fact, a 3-dimensional slice of

a higher dimensional universe that is holding all this in being and causing it to happen.

The imagination, it’s hard to account for it in evolutionary terms if it is notsomehow mapping a field of data that is important for development.

So that’s that notion, the notion of the importance of psychedelics in the

formation of this species and a continuing formation of the cultural design.

I think what the psychedelics do is they de-condition from cultural programmingand allow models to be replaced at a much greater rate of speed so that the culture that

uses psychedelics can trim itself to every historical current. This is really the challengeof the future, we are moving as a culture faster and faster through the temporal medium,

through the historical space, and this is creating a compression of events.

It’s almost like an airfoil approaching the speed of sound.

There is a wave of concussive shock building in front of our culture and we haveto almost re-design ourselves in mid-flight in order to push through that barrier into the

different order, the different set of laws that will prevail once we have gotten through

that.

But this whole sense of everything accelerating, of all historical input beingintensified and all previous times being somehow co-present this is the phenomenon of

the winding down of a universe, or the building up of an eschatological shockwave in

front of a vehicle that is trying to transit out of history and into some kind of millenarian

space that is not subject to the anxiety that history involves.

That’s what the whole crisis around the millennium and the whole 20th century isreally about is this effort to create a complete summation that can also be used as the

force to propel us beyond everything we have been or thought before, because there’s

obviously no other escape from the culture crisis.

That kind of situation is called a forward escape, it means the only thing you can

do is move forward into the crisis at ever greater speed,



because the only solution is to pass through it and move beyond it.

As we move toward the millennium and as the intelligence of our machines, the

size of our databases, the desperation of our politicians, the intensity of the visions of our visionaries, all of this will build to a crazy concatenations climax, it can’t be any other

way because Christian civilization has wired us up for these things at the end of every

1,000 year period.

I mean in the year 1000 everything just went haywire, people stood in the street

for months just gaping at the sky, no work got done, you know there was such an eminentexpectation of the onslaught of the millennium.

Nevertheless this archetype of renewal is seeking in thousands and thousands of

ways to be born, and I think that the rediscovery of psychedelics, LSD, everything thatWasson did, all of these things are critical factors in this cultural mix that is going to gel

towards the recognition of the things that we hold as clichés.

That the inside and outside are the same thing, that the universe can be crossed by

thought in an instant, all information is somehow co-present, and so on.

Are there any questions about any of this?

-(not sure if question was asked, if so it was completely cut out of audio)

Yes, I said that what we take for granted, that the inside and the outside are the

same thing these things will be assimilated by the larger culture. Things like humanmachine interface and the ego identification with the body, I think all these things are

going to be obviated.

You see we don’t know what man is and we have a strong association that

humanness is related to the monkey body, but yet our whole historical career has been of

projecting ideas into technical accretions, and now that we have computers and things



that mimic intelligence we are beginning to explore you know “What is humanness

ontologically?” that’s what people are really talking about when they say can machines

think? Will machines think?

They mean “is what we have focused in on as the defining factor of our being thatsets us apart from all other things something which we could manufacture?”

And the answer is probably to some degree yes. Because much of what isintelligence, or appears superficially to be intelligence is simply data and retrieval so that

more and more of the culture is being hard wired into an electronic coral reef that is

simply the outermost of each of our own exoskeletons.

We all have telephones in our homes, many of us have computer terminals, these

things introduce us to a global skin of information but as the hardware grows more and

more unobtrusive we will more and more come to identify these things with our ego.

We won’t even realize that we’re being charged for thinking about certainquestions because we’re actually accessing a database somewhere which is feeding us

data.

So that the commonality of mind, is I think going to be somehow like the triumphof socialism would be the commonality of mind in a capitalist context.

That there really will be an ocean of thought that you will swim in and that will be

composed of deeper and deeper levels of integrated information. Perhaps this is all that

hyperspace is,

is the entirely expressed information ghost of this physical universe.

And that it’s in the information reconstruction of the physical universe that the

mind will eventually come to swim like a fish, and will come and go from various

constellations of aggregation and integration.

You see, what’s going to happen is that the rules of the imagination are going toreplace physics so that we are going to be able to do and be whatever we can imagine.

None of us have ever probably put in much thought to what would I be if I could be

anything I could imagine?

Just 20 minutes of that meditation will lead you into pretty strange places? What

would it be like if the culture evolved in 1,000 years in that way? If you could be



anything.

I guess the first step everyone takes is they imagine themselves as the flying

saucer, the lenticular mind-object made of light that can move at any speed and become

any object and answer any question. Well its an archetype of wholeness in Jung in hisflying saucer book.

Talked about this thing in alchemy called the “rotundum” which is the thing

which spins you know. It’s also in alchemy called “the scintillia”, the spark, and simply

because it’s round and spins it’s a symbol of wholeness, but its like the exteriorization of

the human soul.

The realization that expressing what is within us may culturally eventually mean

actually exteriorizing the human soul and interiorizing the human body so that this world is traded in for the imagination.

This is sort of what art has always been trying to do, but we’re talking about a

breakthrough of ways and means on such a scale that you can just march off into this

art.

-(Question) Terence, do you find it reasonable to anticipate that eventually human

technology will succeed in producing computers that are just as conscious as we are, and

can be able to do anything that we can do?

Oh yes well Kat and I did that without even a flashlight battery, just by having

children. (light laughter)

I mean there’s a genetic component and an epigenetic component, but what I’msaying is the difference between these things may become dim indeed, in other words the

way a person is made is the way a DNA message is read by RNA, and it’s a group of

codons of nucleotide bases which are then templated and a ribosome reads it and

assembles little pieces correctly and a protein is created.

Well there’s no reason why anything should be made any other way. All machinesshould be produces by the transcription of molecular templates, so all our machines will

become strangely quasi-biological.



Your Chevrolets will not be manufactured, they will be grown in yeasty vats and

they talk to you, the question becomes very moot as to whether this is a pet, a friend, a

colleague, or uh…(laughs)

You see nature works with very low energies, DNA can make anything andthere’s no smelting, no huge release of toxic byproducts and the amazing thing about

these proteins is that the ribosome stamps them out and they come out in like a line.

They have forces, electrostatic, and other kinds of forces scripted into them so

that they fold in very, very complicated ways, and they always fold the same way,

And their memory of how to fold, where this comes from is one of the great

mysteries of molecular biology, it’s not at all understood.

Imagine if we could make machines which just emerged as a strange form of

spaghetti which then folded itself into jet planes, refrigerators, automobiles, televisionsets, lipstick cases, and what have you.

This has to do with my notion that really the next evolutionary leap is, well I

shouldn’t call it an evolutionary leap, it’s a leap in epigenetic development, but is what I

call the genesis of visible language. That there is an ability just under the surface of human organization waiting to be coaxed out either through yoga, or slight genetic

engineering

It is something that was anticipated by the Alexandrian philosopher Phylo-Judeas.

He talked about the logos, which is this teaching voice, this informing thing which is

heard, and he was interested in what is called “The more perfect logos”

And he said “What is the more perfect logos?” and then he answered his ownquestion and said “it would be a logos which went from being heard to being beheld

without ever crossing over a border of transition”

In other words a synasthesia.

Using ayahuasca and DMT and compounds like this which are very closely

related to our ordinary brain chemistry,

and practice and dedication,



you can begin to explore places where a vocal synasthesia becomes a colored

topological manifold.

You can show someone your thoughts by singing in a way as to condensevisible objects into the air in front of them. These objects are hyper

words, they are words which you don’t hear but which you see.

Like objects they have sides, and facets, and can be examined and rotated from all

sides.

Well now the biases in our language that cause us to say things like “I see what

you mean” when we mean “I understand you fully” shows that we really place a greater

emphasis on seeing the truth than on hearing the truth.

The truth seen is somehow more valid than the truth heard. And ayahuasca is a

perfect example of a plant which communicates with a visible language.

The mushroom you often hear it, and often the

hearing evolves into a visible synasthesia field of

photonic input.

The ayahuasca always communicates visually, and it’s like the Mayan glyphs or something, it’s this fantastically complicated surface which is conveying alien meaning.

After an ayahuasca trip you just feel like your eyes are sticking out of your head because you’ve just been looking, as one looks as the page of a book, for hours and hours

as this strange alien 3-dimensional language flows through your mind.

I believe this is a human ability just under the surface, and that in psychedelic

states of mind this happens to people.

This is why all the fiddling with glosslylalia, it’s the hope of reaching that

concordance of chemistry and that the moment will allow this to happen because it’s for

some reason very satisfying, it’s like an utterly harmless siddy, it is true magic and the

person doing it is utterly transported by their ability to project visible beauty.



But it appears to have no use other than entertainment of ones self and others, but

eventually when it is integrated as a cultural mode, it is what telepathy will be.

Telepathy will not be hearing other people’s thoughts in your head. Telepathy will

be when you switch into the language which lets people see what you mean.

It will be the “See what I mean language”

I think that the psilocybin from the very beginning was catalyzing the language

centers, and in fact the kind of language that I’m speaking to you right now is a proto-typic type of this eventual development in human organization.

This is the thing that makes humans unique, the ability to make small mouthnoises which are arbitrarily coded with conventionally agreed upon meaning, which

allow us then a vast control of a previously invisible linguistic space.

It’s in that linguistic space that we have

erected our cathedrals and conducted our

pogroms, and gone about all our forms of

business.

And becoming aware of this, of language as a thing to journey into, and languageas a thing to avoid the pitfalls of, the Buddha say “awareness of awareness”

maybe it’s easier if one thinks of

“awareness of language”

-(commentary) This thing about the visual language, they will have their mouth

open and there will literally be these beautiful things coming out of their mouth with

flowers and they interpret this flowery speech, but perhaps they were in fact doing whatyou’re talking about



They don’t interpret that as flowery speech they call it that, that yes I think that’swhat it must have been. This is all very puzzling to me, if anybody knows, if anybody is

an acoustic person or I don’t know what’s going on exactly, but the question of “what is

voice?” and “what can you do with self-generated sound?”

How neutral is it in your own organism? In other words, any of you who read The Invisible Landscape, the theory in there is that you take a certain drug, a certain plant,and you hear and interiorized tone which is not a psychological phenomenon, but rather it

is actually the electron-spin resonance of this highly dynamic biomolecule by the millions

entering into the synaptic cleft and competing with the endogenous transmitter there

for uptake.

That this “mmmmMmmMMmmMm” is molecularely real and hence can be

treated as a variable to be manipulated with the input of other kinds of sounds such as thesound which cancels it or sound which reinforces it to then manipulate these moleculesinto ones body.

This is really I think the frontier of shamanism world-wide, that everybody is

trying to figure out how far you can go with sound, and what you can do with it and alsohow dangerous is this?

How permanent can some of these brain changes be?

What is the mechanism? Is the electron spin resonance thing pretty close to it or isthat just a myth, and an entirely different set of coupling mechanisms are making that

happen?

All ayahuasca shamans are great hummers, and great controllers of their voice,

they do operate on your body with light and sound, and there are sounds which can slice

into your body.

It seems to me this is where experiential and experimental work with these thingsshould concentrate to just try and understand how much of humanness can we take

control of?

How bound in are we?



What do these special abilities mean?

What tradition, if any, have anticipated them?

The end? I HAVE NO IDEA!!!

the rites of springss

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