Speaker: Matthew J. Sullivan, Ph.D.Clinical Psychologist, Parenting Coordinator,

Co-founder of Overcoming Barriers, Inc.(California, US)

Date: October 9-10, 2014

The Hong Kong Catholic Marriage Advisory Council

Involvement of Children in Dispute Resolution

Processes

Why Involve Children?

Child’s preference is one factor of many of the best interest standard, which is referenced in custody statutes in all 50 states

Child’s Preference

Love and affection of parents Relationship to other people in the child’s life

◦ Siblings, grandparents, nanny, etc. Child-specific factors – developmental needs,

adjustment to home, school and community Coparenting – facilitation, cooperation, conflict Coercion Discipline, abuse, domestic violence

Perspectives about other factors that can be elicited by interviewing children

Child is brought into focus for the Court and the parents

Child’s voice provides the Court with more integrated and reliable view of family

Children are good observers of family life Child feels acknowledged and heard The Court obtains input relevant to parental

disputes and appropriate Court decisions

* these slides based on and by permission of Joan Kelly

Why Talk to Children and Adolescents in the Court Process?*

The Court/other Court professional provides relevant feedback to parents re: what is important to child

Talking to child enhances Court/other professional’s credibility with parents and children

Listening to children is not = to letting children make decisionsGallop et al, 2000; Kelly, 2002, 2008; Sanchez & Kibler-Sanchez, 2004

Why Talk to Children and Adolescents in the Court Process? (2)

Understand the child’s experience in the high conflict family

Explore how things are working for child: ◦ Parenting plan and transitions◦ Parenting of each parent (emotional support,

discipline, communication about and with other parent)

◦ Parent-child and sibling relationships◦ School, homework, friends

Including Children in the Court Process: Advantages for Court and Children

Explore children’s specific desires & ideas about parent disputes re: summer plans, activities, sports, parental attendance at events, therapy, etc.

Listening to children can paradoxically takes them out of the middle of parent disputes

Minor’s counsel can support child’s desire not to be used to express parental anger/disputes

Including Children in the Court Process: Advantages for Court and Children (2)

Positive evaluations of the opportunity to be heard (in all forums studied)◦ Feel acknowledged re: centrality of issues to their

lives◦ Think it leads to better decisions & outcomes ◦ Most feel comfortable in interview situation rather

than courtroom

Cashmore & Parkinson, 2008; Gallop et al 2000; IICRD evaluation, 2008; Kelly, 2002; Smart & Neale, 2000

Children’s Views on Being Included in Divorce Processes: Research

In contested cases with history of violence, abuse, and/or high conflict, children prefer to talk directly with a judge, compared to uncontested cases

They want to ensure that their views are heard correctly – tend not to trust parents’ lawyers, evaluators, court mediators, minor’s counsel Cashmore & Parkinson, 2008; Parkinson, et al, 2007

Children’s Views on Being Included in Divorce Processes: Research (2)

Majority of parents felt that children should be heard

Reasons: procedural justice, fairness, “it’s their life”, better decisions and outcomes

More parents than children worried about pressure & manipulation of views of child

Uncertain about appropriate age (unlike children who said those over age of 7 should be listened to)Cashmore & Parkinson, 2008

Research on Interviewing Children:Parents’ Views

They want to be involved and heard in matters that affect them

They understand the difference between providing input and making decisions

They prefer voluntary input and want the right not to be heard

Many wish they could talk with family members rather than professionals Cashmore & Parkinson, 2008; Gollop, et al, 2000; Kelly, 2002; Kelly, 2007; Parkinson & Cashmore, 2008; Smith et al, 2003; Smart, 2002; Taylor, 2006.

Most Children and Adolescents are Clear…

Parents are able to reach agreement on disputes with the Court’s assistance

Dispute not directly relevant to child Child is too young to provide reliable

information Child has strong anxiety or opposition to

participating in process Child traumatized by violence, abuse, mental

illness, afraid of talking about their views Kelly, 2002; Saposnek, 2004; Warshak, 2003

When might the child’s voice not be a benefit?

Child vulnerable to parent pressure and manipulation

Child fears punitive response by parent Child worried about parental well-being Unstable opinions and wishes Unhealthy identification with a parent What child wants may not be in child’s best

interest Saposnek, 2004; Warshak, 2003

Potential Risks for Court in Eliciting the child’s voice

Court personnel lack understanding of children’s cognitive & developmental abilities and psychological needs

Poor interview techniques yield poor information◦ using confirmatory strategies to get answers that

professional wants to hear or believes are correct◦ using language and questions not age appropriate ◦ approach is too therapeutic, vague, lacking

structure, unfocused Dismissal of child’s views by Court

Kelly, 2002

Potential Problems of Court in eliciting voice of the Child

If other court professionals have talked to a teacher or therapist, summarize purpose and content for child

If child has therapist, what is the relationship between that input and the direct input of the child?◦ Help interpret input?

Including Children: Other Issues

Demand characteristics – aspects of interpersonal interaction that tend to cause one of the participants to behave in ways that he/she comes to believe are expected of him/her by the other participant

Lack of investigatory independence The pursuit by the interviewer of a preconceived

notion of what has happened to the child The use of leading questions The lack of control for outside influences on the child The failure to pursue any alternative hypotheses

Other considerations in interviewing children

How much prior to and after interviewing? Selectivity, bias in information gathered

◦ Interviews and document review◦ Procedural/substantive

Data gathering as it relates to interviewing children

• Physically comfortable environment for children

• Do not interfere with important events in child’s life

• Last an appropriate length of time • Meet the child’s level of competence

(a) ability to recall (b) ability to report

Developmentally sensitive interviews

• Does the child understand your questions?• Do you understand the child’s answers?• Do you need to adjust your questions?• Are there signs of coaching or

contamination?

Establishing Competence

• Culture • Environment • Developmental delays • Family communication style • Trauma

What effects Competence?

Not random, a start and a finish and a purposeful structure in between

Kids/adults are much more use to conversations than interviews◦ It takes training and practice for adults◦ It takes orientation and guidance for children to

respond

An interview is not a conversation

• Standardizes the process • Provides structure • Can be flexible • Is efficient • Can be defended in court

Use of a Protocol

• Introduction & Instructions • Building Rapport • Inquiry • Closure

A flexible Protocol

• Adopt neutral/supportive attitude • Identify your job • Identify the child’s job

Introduction and Instructions

“My name is_____________. I talk to children about their families. I’m going to be asking you a lot of questions today. Some will be easy and some will be hard. Some you’ll know the answers to and some you won’t. If I ask a question and you don’t know the answer, I don’t want you to guess. So if I said, ‘What did you have for breakfast today? What would you say?”

“Sometimes I forget and say things that kids don’t understand. If I do that, I want you to tell me. So if I said, ‘Do you feel garrulous today,’ what would you say?”

“Sometimes I make mistakes. If I do, I want you to tell me. So if I called you _______, what would you say? “

“Sometimes I ask the same question more than once. If I do that, it doesn’t mean you gave me the wrong answer. It means I forgot that I already asked that question.”

“If I ask you a question and you don’t want to answer, you don’t have to. You can say something like, ”Pass” and I’ll ask a different question.”

“Let’s start with an easy question. How old are you?”

• For children 10 and over, interviewers should provide information about locally mandated reporting, esp. abuse.

Confidentiality

• Avoid sensitive subjects • Ask open-ended questions“What’s your favorite part of school school?”

“Tell me more about that.” “Tell me something you like to do for fun.”“Tell me more about that”

Building Rapport

Begin with open-ended question◦ “Do you know why you’re here today? ________ Tell

me about that. (Tell me more about that.)◦ OR Provide brief explanation:

“Your mom and dad asked me to help them figure out how to share you and your brother.”

Inquiry

“Tell me what you know about why mom and dad don’t live together (anymore)/ why mom and dad are getting a divorce.”

“You said mom and dad were fighting too much. Tell me about that.”

“Tell me what you do for fun with mom/dad.”

“What else do you do for fun with dad?”

Sample Inquiry

Purposes: ◦ Facts◦ Feelings◦ Themes

Inquiry

“I want to know more about ________. Start at the beginning and tell me everything you can remember even if you don’t think it’s important.”

Follow-up

Topics you may wish to cover:◦ Sleeping arrangements◦ Rules in each home◦ Responsibilities in each home◦ Child’s view of parents’ roles, involvement with

them◦ Discipline ◦ Expression of anger

Follow-up with specific topics

Conflict between parentsWitnessing domestic abuse Use of alcohol by parents Relationships with new partners Exposure to pornography/Internet

3 wishes Animal Age

Change about family members

Projective Questions

• Ask the child if there is anything she wants to tell you before you stop

• Ask the child if she has any questions • Thank the child for talking with you today

Closure

• Egocentric • Concrete and literal • Unable to “explain” • Not hypothetical

Issues in Cognitive Development

• Narratives may be disorganized • Fear may affect disclosure • Details may be missing • Memory effects

Issues in Reporting

◦ Open-ended----focused questions-----suggestive questions

Using a continuum of suggestiveness in questions

• “Tell me more about ...”• “And then what happened?”• “You said he ... Tell me more about that.”• I’m not sure I understood the part about...

Tell me more about that.”• “Just before (USE THE CHILD’S WORDS)

what happened?”

Open-ended questions

1. “Did someone tell you to tell me that?”2. “Your dad said to talk about that. Tell me

more about what he said.”3. “What did he tell you to say?”

Find the open-ended question

• “Who, what, when where, why, how” questions

• Multiple choice questions • Yes/No questions

Focused questions

Strategies to improve the reliability of information derived from interviewing children

Avoid hard words • Avoid numbers • Avoid duration and frequency • Avoid time frames • Never invite guessing• Avoid Yes/No without open-ended follow-up• Ask one question at a time • Avoid “Why” • Avoid forced choice questions

Asking questions

• Always keep an open mind• Never interview only to confirm information

from other sources• Expect the unexpected

Testing Hypotheses

“I need you to. . .” • “Can you help me. . .” • “If you don’t talk to me. . .”• “I really want to help you. . .”

Questions to Avoid

NEVER use coercive questions ◦ “You’re telling the truth today, aren’t you?”◦ “You wouldn’t make up a story like this,

would you?”

Coercive Questions

Child sexual abuse: “an evaluator inadequately trained to interview children may access unreliable information from children which may lead to false negatives or false positive occurrences of child sexual abuse. The informativeness of interviews with children victims is strongly influenced by the skill and expertise of the interviewers” Kuenle and Kirkpatrick, JCC, 2005

Considerations with Abuse and Domestic violence

Accommodation: Dependent children within a highly stressful and chronically conflicted co- parent relationship often feel high amounts of anxiety, emotional distress and helplessness as a result of their parents’ conflict. They must learn to cope and survive. Many children feel a desperate need for relief which some accomplish by forming an exclusive alliance with the parent they feel more dependent on, or sometimes most fear.

Problems Associated with Alienated Children’s Voices

The results of several studies indicate that repeated questioning and interviewing in suggestive interviews increases the number of false allegations made by children.

Ceci, S. J. and Bruck, M. 2006,

Factors Affecting Accuracy of Children’s Reports

Research shows that children are quick to notice the emotional tones in an interview and that they act accordingly. In some studies when an accusatory tone is set by the examiner, (e.g., “Your Dad was mad, right?”), children are likely to fabricate reports of past events even in cases when they have no memory of any event occurring.

Ceci, S. J. and Bruck, 2006

Factors Affecting Accuracy of Children’s Reports

Suggestibility: concerns the degree to which individuals encoding, storage, retrieval, and reporting of events can be influenced by a range of social and psychological factors; and the extent to which individuals come to accept and subsequently incorporate post-event information into their memory recollections.

Ceci, S. J. and Bruck, M. 1993

Factors Affecting Accuracy of Children’s Reports

Importance of debriefing ◦ When?◦ Guilt, avoidance, damage

Impact on children of direct involvement in Court proceedings

The older child are the greater ability they have to maintain their lies

  Children lie for the same reasons as adults

◦ to avoid negative consequences◦ for personal gain (e.g., to live in less strict home)◦ for impression management (maintain

appearance of being consistent)◦ to help someone else

◦To be polite

Children lie

Does an adolescent have the capacity or maturity to make

life- ‐altering decisions?

The adolescent brain, in particular, their executive functioning, is not fully developed (National Geographic 2011)

Pruning of excess neurons occurring Often into their late adolescents and early

adulthood there are challenges with judgment, planning, emotionality, problem solving, and impulse control (greater risk- ‐taking behaviour)

Frequently their rational for choices is based on their emotions, which are much more present and accessible

than logic or the weighing of available options

The Adolescent Brain

To have decisional capacity an adolescent must have the required

knowledge and understanding of the partIculars of the decision and an appreciation of the consequences of a decision or lack of decision

Listing relevant choices. Identifying potential consequences of each

choice. Assessing the likelihood of each

consequence actually occurring. Determining the importance of these

consequences. Combining all this information to determine

which choice is the most appropriate.

Components of competent decision-making

FACT PATTERN

STACEY-MOTHER BRENT-FATHER

STACEY

•Was in therapy for PTSDfor sexually abuse perpetrated by her step-father as a child;•Now self medicates with prescription medicine; •Alleges Dad/Brent physically abused child;•Child welfare investigation found allegations unsubstantiated.

BRENT

•Military background;•Used corporal punishment on children;•Drinking episodes;•Very involved Dad;•Some violence with Stacey, which kids observed.

EVENTS

* Stacey starts “Gatekeeping” behaviors;*Move with kids from home to another city;*Hid the kids from Dad for 6 mos;* Filed Order of Protection in that city;*Did not tell Brent where lived;* Involved her parents in the “gatekeeping” behaviors.

KIDS’ BEHAVIOR

*Sally’s grades have dropped, showing some anxiety symptoms;* She likes new city better-higher standard of living;* Loves MOM –can do nothing wrong;* Hates DAD-does everything wrong.

Littany of complaints Knows about court involvement financial situation Extends to family All bad some physical discipline/alcohol use/DV - but

mutually interactive (he reports only his contribution Minimizes involvement - Threatens not to comply with any visitation

Interview with Sally