let's talk bitcoin, episode 09, "bitcoin 2013 kickoff!"

8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 09, "Bitcoin 2013 Kickoff!"

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Participants:

Adam B. Levine (A.B.L.) – Host

Andreas M. Antonopolous (A.A.) – Co-host

Stephan Murph (S.M.) – Co-host

A.B.L. : Coming up on today’s show, Let’s Talk Bitcoin comes to you as recorded livefrom riday, !ay "# in the hours $efore the conference kickoff. Today’s releasekicks off our Bitcoin %&"' (an )ose e*travagan+a with new shows and lots ofinterviews $eing released every weekday. This episode finds the host sitting downfor the first time ever in the same room with e*tensive discussion of the new ideasand innovative approaches proposed and suggested at the iga-! meetup whichtook place on Thursday the "th at the (an )ose Tech !useum. (tay tuned for myinterview with /rik 0oorhees, the man who gave himself to Bitcoin, and a really niceguy. That’ll $e out tomorrow, !ay %% with more to follow. There are $ig things in

store for Let’s Talk Bitcoin, so en1oy the show. A.B.L.: 2i, and welcome to a special episode of Let’s Talk Bitcoin. Today, we are

reporting to you from (tephanie’s hotel room, actually at the !arriott at the BitcoinConference %&"' in (an )ose, California.

(.!.: 3ooohooo4 3e’re all in the same room. This is ama+ing.

A.B.L.: 5eah, a$solutely.

A.A.: 6ever happened $efore.

A.B.L.: As usual, 7 am 1oined $y (tephanie !urphy,

(.!.: 2ello4

A.B.L.: and Andreas !. Antonopolous.

A.A.: 2ello.

A.B.L.: And, uh, we 1ust met for the first time a$out, uh, 7 guess it was last night,yesterday. This is the first time we’ve $een in a room pretty much without morepeople outnum$ering us than the three of us. This is an incredi$le e*perience and 7feel incredi$ly $lessed to $e here for this. This is like8the metaphor that keepsgetting used is this is the 7nternet in "99% or "99, depending on who you want totalk to;

A.A.: 5up.

A.B.L.: ;$ut that is totally what’s happening. Last night we attended the iga-!community meetup, $asically. And a$out half the people there were planning ongoing to the conference today. And, my od, it was packed

(.!.: 5es, standing room only for <&& people, easily. They really know how to throw aparty, too. 7t was very professional, met a lot of really interesting people there and



they had a series of talks setup for us. 3e heard from !ike 2earn, oogleengineer, that was really interesting to hear his thoughts on $itcoin.

A.B.L.: 7 didn’t know that he was a oogle engineer. 7’d $een watching my friend for=uite some time now and kind of saying, >okay, well, some of that stuff is good,some of that stuff is $ad.? But 7 had no idea he was affiliated with oogle. That’s

very interesting.

A.A.: 5ou know, this is his %&@ pro1ect8

A.B.L.: 7nteresting.

A.A.: 7t kind of shows the level of innovation you can get when you let people 1ust focuson things that they are e*cited a$out. And !ike’s really e*cited a$out Bitcoin, and itshows. That’s another thing we got from all the speakers yesterday, 7 think, waspalpa$le e*citement from the speakers and the audience and 1ust this flow ofincredi$le, ground;shaking ideas, history making ideas. 7 heard things 7’d neverthought a$out, never heard of, a$out Bitcoin. 7 think 7’ve said this $efore, my mind is

$eing $lown for 9 months, well, it’s accelerating. And it’s from Buttercoin talkinga$out uni=ue and innovative uses of $itcoin and automated payment systems. (uchas, for e*ample, oogle self;driving cars paying tiny fees to overtake other cars onthe freeway. /ssentially, making an 2-0 lane that is cost;$ased. 7 don’t know if it’sa good idea, $ut it’s a really weird and interesting idea.

A.B.L.: And it’s something that’s possi$le $ecause you have the a$ility to transact theseincredi$ly small values. 3hen 7 heard that idea 7 always think >okay, so this is liketaking the toll road and sort of superimposing this, like, social payment system,where there’s a value e*change $etween people who want to go fast versus peoplewho want to go slow.? !ay$e you 1ust don’t care. (uddenly, driving in your car is

$eing su$sidi+ed $y the people who do care a lot. 7 mean, that’s an incredi$le ideathat’s only possi$le with something like this.

A.A.: eople don’t think a$out the fact that today’s 2-0 lanes are really indirect. Thepeople who can afford to use the 2-0 lanes for whatever reason, or some of thepermit;$ased lanes that e*ist in other states. /ssentially, that money goes $ack intoa $ig highway fund and who knows it ever ends up improving the road. But in thisenvironment, it’s e*actly that. The people who are driving slower would literallyperhaps not pay gas for that particular trip $ecause it’s $eing su$sidi+ed. And thatwas 1ust one of, say, twenty ground$reaking, history;making ideas a$out 7 heardyesterday at the conference. Another one was !ike 2earn talking a$out $itcoinena$ling autonomous agents to have their own $ank accounts and operate as

autonomous agents. /ssentially, we’re talking a$out artificial intelligence orautonomous agents that are used to make decision;making on the internet thathave their own $ank account and use micropayments to advance a specific goal. 7fyou take that idea a $it further, you have the possi$ility of processes competing inan eco;niche online. And if a process is not successful in raising funds in its wallet, itcan’t afford its hosting, so it goes offline. And that’s really an incredi$le idea onceyou grasp the implications it has. /very two minutes, mind $lown, again.



A.B.L.: 5eah.

A.A.: And this is happening again and again in Bitcoin, $ut its happening in slow;motionin the forums and it 1ust got condensed in a couple of hours yesterday and 7 can’twait for tomorrow, the conference.

A.B.L.: 5eah. (o many $utton up shirts, so many pairs of glasses. !y god, it was thenerdiest room 7’ve ever seen, and 7’ve $een covering games 1ournalism since %&&.7t was a very diverse crowd. -ne of the other things that was really e*citing wasthere were a lot of people at the meetup who were new to Bitcoin, who were notnecessarily attending the conference, were there to learn a$out it. 7 spoke with onegentleman from )apan who was incredi$ly e*cited, and wanted to know what $itcoinwas and the free money was. 7 think he must have stum$led into the meetup orsomething like that and was 1ust so caught up in it. The other thing of course waspeople wanting to get involved with the pro1ect. There was that engineer who stoodup8

(.!.: -h, he asked a =uestion, yeah, >7’m a doer not a donator, what can 7 do tocontri$uteD? and got an answer from this whole panel.

A.B.L.: 5ep.

A.A.: 5es, a$solutely. Eoers are very much needed in this environment. (o 7 have onelittle complaint, $ut it was a $it $alanced. And the one complaint 7 had is that likemany early environments in technology, the room was a sausage;fest. And youknow e*actly what 7’m talking a$out.

(.!.: 7 was going to say that, too.

A.A.: 3omen were underrepresented. But, on the other hand, hearing this constant

refrain of >this is the internet of "99%.? 3ell, it was a$solutely diverse $y comparison$ecause when 7 was on the internet in "99%, it was %&,&&& academics. Therewasn’t a woman in sight in my computer science department, 7 can tell you that, oranyone near on it.

(.!.: There might’ve $een someone pretending to $e a woman.

A.A.: ossi$ly, yes, 7’d say, in fact, many of them. But it’s a much more diverseenvironment. 7 hope it gets $etter, $ut in a way it’s already $etter than some of theother technology environments.

(.!.: 5eah, thank you for $ring that up. 7 noticed that too, $ecause 7’m a woman in the

Bitcoin community, and 7 sometimes notice that when 7 go into a room8 A.A.: 7 can vouch that she’s not pretending to $e a woman.

(.!.: -h my, have you seen something that 7 haven’t showed youD

A.A.: /very$ody 1ust hears your voice, who knows nowadays right, with all thatsoftware.



(.!.: 3ell, 7 was looking for you guys last night $ecause we had never met each other, 1ust had seen pictures of each other online since we started working on this pro1ect,and 7 couldn’t find you. There’s this sea of men and Adam and 7 were emailing eachother during the presentations and 7 said, >7t might $e a little easier for you to pickme out of the crowd. 3hy don’t you 1ust look for the person with the purple skirtD?

A.B.L.: 3ell, 7 was looking around for wavy hair. 3e had identified three of four possi$lecandidates.

A.A.: -n the other hand, if you look at the crowd yesterday, what surprised me was thegender diversity wasn’t great =uite yet. But the ethnic diversity was tremendous.

A.B.L.: Tremendous.

A.A.: That is a real point that people need to reali+e. Bitcoin is not the developednations’ currency. 7t’s going to succeed in America last. 7t’s going to succeedeverywhere else, where they don’t have a world reserve currency that is somewhatsta$le or maintains the illusion of $eing sta$le. And that was represented in the

crowd. 7 think the first three or four =uestions were all from people from the 7ndiansu$continent, who were interested in applying it. They had some very interestingand provocative =uestions a$out how you apply microtransactions. 2ere’s the funnything, when we talk a$out microtransactions, we’re talking a$out dollars. 3henthey’re talking a$out microtransactions, they’re talking a$out a$out Fupees, i.e.,tenths of a penny. That’s a very different perspective. 5ou could see the panelfree+e, $ecause they didn’t have an answer for how you make an efficienttransaction in less than a hundred Fupees.

A.B.L.: 2e was fairly com$ative too. 2e asked three or four follow;up =uestionsafterwords and really pressed them on the answers.

(.!.: They had to clarify what is two hundred Fupees.

A.A.: They lacked a perspective of the developed world and that’s where Bitcoinsucceeds first. Because if it’s hard to do a dollar transaction with a de$it card, it’simpossi$le to a Fupee transaction with a credit card, rightD They have much morerelative utility or more marginal utility for the currency in microtransactions. (o whenpeople decide to set a certain fee level, they should not $e thinking in dollars. Theyshould try to figure out what the cost of a cup of coffee is in the slums of Bangaloreand then figure out what kind of microtransaction that is.

A.B.L.: -ne of the other really common nationalities that we saw there was8;

(.!.: ArgentinaD

A.B.L.: ;the Argentinians.

(.!.: There was a panel at one point where there were two people who were C/-’s ofma1or companies8

A.B.L.: 7t was the finance panel, yeah.



(.!.: ..that were from Argentina, and they were talking a$out what it’s like to $uyproperty there. 5ou have to go and meet with a notary, 7 think.

A.A.: 5es, for the escrow service as we do in the G(, $ut with a suitcase of money.

A.B.L.: 3ith a suitcase of cash.

(.!.: And the fees are incredi$le for that, 7 mean, 1ust a huge amount of fees and sothere was one person, 7 can’t remem$er8

A.A.: Buencas Conceras.

(.!.: 5es, he was saying his friend wanted to $uy an apartment in Argentina.

A.A.: Buenos Aires, for a$out a million and a half dollars $ecause $y the way, 1ust$ecause the currency’s in the hole doesn’t mean the apartment’s not $loodye*pensive.

(.!.: That’s right. 7n Argentina too, they have currency controls, 7 think. The actual

market e*change rate for their currency is different than the official e*change rate,so that complicates things even further.

A.A.: And no$ody keeps their money in the country, $ecause if you keep it in thecountry, the government steals it from you.

(.!.: 5eah, e*actly. 2ow wonderful would Bitcoin in a situation like thatD BuencasConceras was saying that his friend wanted to $uy an apartment and asked him todo something where he would hold the escrow ; what did he e*actly ask the friendD

A.A.: 2e wanted to front him the Argentinian money versus essentially an 7-G in dollars$ack in their American $ank accounts $ecause in these situation $oth seller and

$uyer $oth have their money outside the country usually in a $ank account in theG(. /ssentially, all they need to do is create the necessary 7-G’s temporarily in Argentinian money, or $itcoin.

(.!.: 5eah, e*actly. 2e said he wanted nothing to do with that transaction.

A.A.. (mart.

(.!.: But if it were done it $itcoin, it would pro$a$ly so much easier, and the fees would$e less, so it would cost every$ody who was involved way less money.

A.A.: 5eah, and 7 loved the conclusion of that story where he said in the end of that 7had this image of the actual transaction that went through which was two over;&

year;olds, completely tech;un;savvy people, e*changing HF codes in a room with anotary. This actually happened in Argentina. Argentina is a perfect e*ample ofwhere Bitcoin gets adopted first, $ecause people in Argentina have $een suffering afinancial and currency crisis in slow;motion for %& years. A lot of countries are likethat. 3e tend to assume that currencies operate like they do in 3estern nations andwe’re the small, temporary e*ception. The vast world knows what a $lack market is$ecause they have to use it on a daily $asis.



(.!.: 3hat the a$out the concept of $eing a$le to attach your 7E to a wallet voluntarilythat !ike 2earn was talking a$out, $uilding on top of the e*isting Bitcoininfrastructure, that was really interesting to me. 2e was really careful, 7 thought, tostress, if you want to, so that $asically the pseudonymous nature of Bitcoin couldstill $e used to anyone’s advantage who wants to, $ut there could $e more

infrastructure or software that interfaces with the Bitcoin network, where you couldpotentially identify yourself if you want to.

A.A.: Fight.

A.B.L.: The verifia$le nature of Bitcoin is what the important part is. 7t’s a$out ownershipand so if you can guarantee that you own, then it doesn’t really matter if it’spseudonymous or using your real name ; the point is that it’s accurate. 5ou 1usthave to make that association functionally. (o, yeah, 7 mean, since we startedtalking a$out the Bitcoin 7E pro1ect that )oe Casio is working on, there have $eenseveral other pro1ects that are $asically in this same vein that have sort of startedpopping up. Clearly, this is an idea that’s getting traction and clearly it’s something

where, you know, we were talking with a potential sponsor of the show who is aE6( guy and, my god, it was $lowing his mind. 2e was like, >wow, we need toattach this to emails $ecause it would functionally eliminate the spam pro$lem $ymaking it so if some$ody doesn’t have any sort of reputation associated with thatparticular address that they’re claiming as their identity, then 7’ll 1ust never see theemail. 7f someone wants to get it to me, they can send .&" $itcoins to me and 7’ll $ea$le to tell that it’s not spam $ecause even that small amount of relative value is stillmuch more than someone’s going to send out with spam.?

A.A.: 3hat we’re seeing at the moment is essentially the reflection of the fact that a lotof things we take for granted in traditional currencies are several different principlesmashed together through necessity or constraints in the underlying currency. 3hatdo 7 mean $y thatD 7n most security systems you have trust, you have attestation,the a$ility to prove you own something, and then you have identity. 3e don’t think ofthese as separate things $ecause usually, in order to make it practical, all threemash together. 5ou know who 7 am, you know what 7 own, and therefore, you cantrust me. 5ou can’t know that you can trust without knowing who 7 am. 5ou can’tknow that 7 own something without knowing who 7 am. 3e’ve, $y necessity, $roughtthese three together. The analogy 7 like to think of is, as the 7nternet $roke apartthose concepts, where $efore if you were a pu$lisher, you were someone who hadaccess to information, you were someone who had access to writers ,and then youwere someone who had a megaphone or printing press and $ought ink $y the $arrelto e*press that opinion. 5ou could not separate the concept of 1ournalist fromaccess to the printing press, access to the halls of power, and a rational voice. 6ow,you can. Anyone has a printing press. 3e’ve actually separated those and now wecan focus on what really matters, which is a rational voice and a smart idea and youcan get the other things for free. 3ith currencies, we’ve mashed together trust,identity, and attestation ; we don’t need to. 3ith Bitcoin, you can prove you ownsomething without telling anyone who you are and so gradually we’re pulling apartthese concepts and we’re a$le to focus on how we make the most efficienttransaction on each one of these. 7f you want to prove 1ust trust, and $uild



reputation, you can do it without identity. 7f you want to show your identity withoutshowing any of your $ank details, you can do that. This is really opening up andrevealing things that were put together for no reason other than the constraints.

AE0/FT7(/!/6T: 7f 7 showed you a we$site where you could easily purchaseelectronics from the world’s largest distri$utor, with $itcoins at &@ markup, would

you think it was too good to $e trueD ood news ; it’s real, and it’s at$itcoinstore.com. Choose from half a million items, save money over Ama+on and6ewegg and convert your $itcoins to real;world items. 5ou can even $uy withprivacy. All they need is a shipping address. But, don’t take my word for it, see foryourself at $itcoinstore.com

/6E AE0/FT7(/!/6T

A.B.L.: -ne of the other themes that’s $een coming up on $oth sides of the issue is thatlocation matters.

A.A.: 5es.

A.B.L.. -n the one hand, you’ve got this huge movement from essentially, the thirdworld, places where they have unsta$le currencies. -n the other hand, you havethis impending threat of regulatory death, functionally, coming from the Gnited(tates. 3e spoke a$out this on episode 8

(.!.: !mm;hmm.

A.B.L.: /rik 0oorhees, in my interview with him this morning, functionally said, >it is a$ad idea to do anything with $itcoin that is a $usiness in the Gnited (tates.? 2ethinks, fundamentally, they’re going to fail. 2e’s moved his companies to anama.

(.!.: To anama, yeah. 7 was talking with him last night too, that was really interestingto hear.

A.B.L.: A$solutely.

(.!.: 2e said it’s 1ust so much easier in every way. rom a $usiness standpoint, thereare no ta*es e*cept if he does $usiness within anama, and that’s pretty miniscule.

A.B.L.: Fight.

A.A.: 7 think the real issue here is you can’t do a small $usiness in the G( with $itcoin.5ou can do a $ig $usiness in the G( with $itcoin. Because you’re a $ig $usiness,you can $uy due process. 7f you’re not a $ig $usiness, you can’t $uy due process,

you can’t comply with the regulations, and you will $e stomped. 6ow, the rest of theworld doesn’t really care. Fegulatory compliance is a first;world pro$lem and 7 saythat as Iirst3orldro$lem as it’s mocked on various sides. 7t’s the kind of pro$lemyou only worry a$out if no one’s shooting at you.

A.B.L.: Fight.

(.!.: !mm;hmm.



A.A.: Huite honestly, in most of the world, regulation is a matter of whether and howmuch you can $ri$e different officials to regulate you or to $e compliant. All of thischecking $o*es and filling forms is alien $ecause there is no process like that. 7t’snot a pro$lem, you can $e much more loosey;goosey with your transaction andthat’s perfectly fine $ecause nuance and gray areas are how the economies work.

2ere, we have all of this $lack;and;white, we try to $elieve that it’s actually rule oflaw when, of course, o$viously, it’s an illusion. 7t’s a trap, it’s a terri$le trap. Gnlessyou can $ring the $ig guns to the court to fight for your due process, regulation is

1ust a way of killing small $usiness.

(.!.: 5eah, 7 actually have to say 7 was really disappointed with the amount of peoplewho were on the panel last night, who seemed to $e cheering regulation, saying it’snot only inevita$le $ut it’s good and it’ll $e great.

A.A.: 3ell, of course it is, for them. They represent the $ig $usiness that can afford tomake regulation an ally, not an enemy.

(.!.: 7 don’t think of those people that were there last night as representing, really, like,$ig $usiness.

A.A.: Big enough.

A.B.L.: 5eah, 7 mean, $ig is relative when you look at it. 3e’ve $een talking withe*changes. Jraken, 7 think is what it’s called and Tradehill, they’re $oth G(;$asede*changes $ased out of California which is, of course, an insane environment to$ase any sort of $usiness out of.

(.!.: Ghh, yeah.

A.B.L.: But they’re whole focus, they look at !t. o* and say, >these people have done

the regulatory side wrong.?

A.A.: 5es.

A.B.L.: 3hether or not that $e true, it makes it their focus to get the regulatory side right.(o when 7 talk with )ared from Tradehill, his whole focus is on over;compliance, intaking the letter of the law, then following the spirit of the law, and then going to like,%&@ $eyond that8

(.!.: 7n hopes that they’ll leave him alone.

A.B.L.: /*actly.

A.A.: 7t’s not that they’ll leave him alone, it’s that when they do attack him, and they will,he will $e $eyond reproach and he’ll $e a$le to drag it out in court for decades$efore they can shut him down. 3hereas, if you go out and sign a piece of paperfrom 3ells argo that says you’re not a money transmission $usiness, you then getshutdown $y the Eepartment of 2omeland (ecurity and Treasury, which is whathappened to !t. o*. 7 mean, this is really a matter of not even doing the $asics toprotect yourself, literally opening yourself up to $e a victim.



A.B.L.: 3ell, again, in the conversation with /rik 7 $rought that up $ecause 7 was like,>how could they $e doing this, how can they make such $asic mistakesD? 2is pointwas that, yes, there were $asic mistakes, $ut they were such small errors. Thispaper was signed three years ago at the time that it was done. The rules havechanged, the regulatory environment has changed during that time. 7t’s one of those

things where if the government goes looking for reasons to mess with you, chancesare pretty good they’re going to find them, if 1ust $ecause the rules are constantlychanging, and you don’t even know what all the rules are anyway.

A.A.: 5eah, $ut 7 would also say, is it a surprise that the government is going after thisD6o. 7s it a surprise that the rules have changedD 6o. 2ave a lot of things changed inthe last three yearsD 5es. 3hat hasn’t changedD !t. o* didn’t change their $ankaccount for three years. They had three years to get this right and so 7 do notattri$ute to malice what can $e e*plained $y incompetence and this particular case,it really is a matter of incompetence, technical incompetence, and regulatoryincompetence. eter 0essenes covered this well. 2e’s o$viously $iased $ecausehe’s suing !t. o* at the moment.

A.B.L.: 5eah, which is a little funny $ecause he didn’t disclose it at the time. 7 was like,so where’s the disclosure that you’ve got a thing going with them.

A.A.: 7 don’t think he really needed to disclose it, at least to the four hundred people whowere in that room. They were all chuckling a$out it.

A.B.L.: 7 guess that’s true.

A.A.: 2e made some very good points which is that running an e*change is not a$out 1ust $uilding a trade and order matching engine. 5ou need an e*change stack. 5ouneed a regulatory stack. 5ou need a compliance stack. 5ou need a finance stack.

5ou need a cash flow stack and, in fact, an anti;money laundering stack and severalother things. 2e’s a$solutely right. The =uestion is, why would these companies gointo $usiness without having those things checked out. 7 can understand why you’ddo it three years ago, $ut have you not $een paying attentionD

A.B.L.: And another thing that’s happened is we’ve seen kind of a consolidation, almost,where money has started into some of the companies that were already $ig. Bitpay

1ust received two million dollars in venture. 5ou didn’t know thisD

A.A.: 7 did not know this. 3hen did this happenD

A.B.L.: This happened two days ago.

(.!.: 5eah.

A.A.: -h, fantastic.

A.B.L.: -h, yeah, this happened two days ago, yeah, two days ago and in addition tothat, they hired )eff ar+ik, 7 $elieveD

A.A.: 5es, he’s now working for them $ut interestingly enough they’re going to donatemost of his time to continue to promote the core development area.



A.B.L.: 7 was wondering a$out that, yeah.

A.A.: That’s what they said in the announcement. They said he’s $eing hired $y Bitpayand he will $e turning all of his work into the open source. Let’s $e honest, 7 think it’simportant to really praise all of the early companies in Bitcoin.

A.B.L.: Fight.

A.A.: 6ot only for the services they offer directly to customers. As $ad as they are andas crashy as they are at times, we’re all pioneers in this. But more importantly,almost all of the $usinesses in Bitcoin, the early ones, have contri$uted $ack to thecommunity. Code, intellectual property and various other areas of support, fundingother $usinesses, funding developers, and then open sourcing all of that stuff. 7t’sreally important, especially at this early stage.

(.!.: They did get into it $ecause they were e*cited. They were 1ust people who weree*cited a$out Bitcoin and they said, look, 7 need to do something that’s going to$uild infrastructure for this. 7 can see why they contri$uted $ack.

A.A.: 5eah, and the word amateur is a dou$le;edged sword. 7t means someone wholoves the profession and does it out of love. 7t also means someone who is not aprofessional. Gnfortunately, that $rings a lot of enthusiasm early on and eventually itleads to some pro$lems of scala$ility and maturity.

(.!.: 3ell, 7 think that’s one reason that we’re now seeing so many people who aresaying sort of, like, >yeah, we need regulation, it’s good.? 7 think with this influ* of 0Cmoney, they’re getting a lot of pressure. 5ou have to $e professional and part of$eing professional is to play the game and follow all the rules. That means you haveto, at least when you talk pu$licly, you have to advocate for all of this regulation andstuff. 7’m sure it’s pressure. Another thing that came up last night was the idea of a

$u$$le. (ome$ody, 7 forget who it was, $ut some$ody on the panel said that theythought the $iggest threat to Bitcoin, right now ,is a $u$$le.

A.A.: 3hoever said it, everyone agreed, including the audience. (o, 7 think that was avery elegant point.

(.!.: But what if we’re already in a $u$$leD 7 mean, there’s so much venture capitalcoming into Bitcoin;$ased companies. 7 mean, you went to this meetup the otherday, Andreas, you talked a$out it on the show, may$e a week ago, $ut you talkeda$out it on the show, and you said there were 0C’s all over this.

A.A.: 7 know 7 noticed two, may$e three investors who were looking for stuff, and we’ve

seen this again at the show. The room where we had the iga-!, you could tell ;well, actually, the easiest way to tell is look around and see who’s wearing thepinstripe suit in a sea of $lue 1eans and t;shirts, there are the 0C’s ; and who’s gotthe $eard and the pony tail, there are the coders.

(.!.: KLaughing



A.A.: -k, 7’m $eing a $it facetious here, $ut yeah, you could definitely see the $ankersfrom a mile away, and there were plenty of them. 2ere’s the issue, a $u$$le is onlya $u$$le when it $ursts.

A.B.L.: Fight.

A.A.: And it’s only a $u$$le when it can no longer sustain $eing inflated. Let’s $e real,this is a ". $illion dollar incredi$ly useful transactional currency. The internet$u$$le at its height was a ".% trillion dollar $u$$le. Can we go and inflate a lot morewithout it $urstingD 5es. 3hat we need is less panic, 7 think.

A.B.L.: Fight.

A.A.: Because what we saw with the M%& was a premature $urst of a $u$$le that reallyhas a long way to go until it is a via$le economy that reflects the utility of Bitcoin.

A.B.L.: Fight.

A.A.: There are fundamentals, here. This is a damn useful currency. ar morefundamentals than the pants shop site that had #&&,&&& eye$alls and got avaluation of # $illion dollars during the internet $u$$le. There’s some >there? there.

A.B.L.: 7t’s a$out moneti+ation too. That was the ultimately the pro$lem with most of theinternet $u$$le. 5eah, they had the eye$alls $ut there was no moneti+ation. 3ell,with Bitcoin, that’s the whole thing ; the whole thing is a moneti+ation.

A.A.: 5es, 7 love the fact that Bitcoin comes pre;moneti+ed.

A.B.L.: Fight, e*actly. 5ou know, that has good elements, $ut it also has $ad elements.3e’re talking a$out how with $itcoin, for the first time, if you steal something online,you no longer need to worry a$out how to moneti+e your theft. 7t’s not like you’re

stealing credit card num$ers and then have to sell them at pennies on the dollar. 7nfact, you’re getting complete face value. 7t’s like, the internet suddenly has all ofthese $anks. 3herever there are wallet services, wherever there is value $eingstored, suddenly there is a $ank that is screaming, >ro$ me, ro$ me, ro$ me4?

A.A.: Fight. 3hy do you ro$ the $anksD Because that’s where the money is. 5ou madea very good point 1ust now, 7 think, which is important to understand which is that it’snot a matter of the fle*i$ility to transfer. 7t’s whenever there is theft online, thefencing component means a discount.

A.B.L.: A huge discount.

A.A.: A huge discount. The more specific the item is, the more of a discount. That’s whythe predominant approach to protecting the crown 1ewels is actually misguided onthe 7nternet for corporations, $ecause the crown 1ewels are hardest to fence.3hereas, you’re 2F data and social security num$ers are very easy to fence, havethe lowest discount of them all. 3ell, now, $itcoin will $e the easiest. 7n fact, it’seasier than digital money as held in $anks or credit cards. Fight now, the mostfencea$le thing on the internet is credit card num$ers. 3ell, $itcoin is it.



A.B.L.: Bitcoin is it.

A.A.: 3e’ve seen that in also not 1ust in terms of stealing $itcoin, $ut also in terms ofsurreptitiously generating $itcoin $y sticking a mining engine in a game.

A.B.L.: Fight.

A.A.: 7’m sure that if you look at the $otnets out there, a lot of them are mining $itcoinnow. And they’re huge, they’re ;"& million machines.

A.B.L.: (o, it sort of $egs the =uestion, do we think that that’s the future of miningD Eowe think that these large autonomous networks that are essentially controlled $y acouple individuals, you know what 7 meanD 7t doesn’t really matter if you’re talkinga$out a mining pool that has people voluntarily putting in, and then essentially 1ustgoing on auto;pilot or if you’re talking a$out, ultimately, these $otnets. unctionally,they serve the same purpose. They’re large groups of relatively low;poweredcomputers that are pooling all of their power together so they can achieve this goal,$e it for good or for evil.

A.A.: 5eah, 7 think that’s a$solutely the end result. 7n fact, 7’m looking forward to the daythat $oth my fridge, my microwave, and my car are mining while 7’m sleeping. 7tfollows the same pattern of evolution of the 7nternet where you end up with smallerand smaller and smaller devices $ecoming intelligent and connected. And thatmeans intelligent, connected, and capa$le of mining. (o, yes, your light switch will$e mining. 5es, your car will $e mining. Tiny amounts, $ut it all adds up $ecausethere’s # $illion people on the planet $ut there’s going to $e more individual assetsthat are intelligent that can mine on $ehalf of those people. 7t’s the ultimatedecentrali+ation, 7 think. (o, in that oogle car we were talking a$out $efore that’spaying fees in order to overtake the other cars is also mining as it’s driving.

A.B.L.: KLaughing

(.!.: KLaughing 3ild.

A.A.: 3hy notD 7 mean, we talk a$out electricity generation with hy$rid;electric cars, whynot mining tooD retty much anything that has computational capa$ility can mine inits idle power. 7n fact, 7 would consider it that any device that you $uild, if it’s notcompletely idle and energy;saving, should immediately $e switching its time tomining. 3hy notD

A.B.L.: 3hy notD

A.A.: That should $e the energy;saver version. 5ou’re either doing productive work,mining, or turned off.

A.B.L.: 5eah.

(.!.: 7 like it.



A.B.L.: 7 like that, too. 7 think that again, you know, as we get further into this homeautomation thing, then that’s totally plausi$le. Already with technology that we havenow, it’s going to $e a year or two, may$e, $ut ;

A.A.: But the $est part a$out that, if you do start instituting or seeing mining on thatscale of distri$ution, then the mining naturally flows to the areas of lowest cost of

electricity, which also tend to $e the most environmentally;friendly forms ofelectricity.

A.B.L.: Fight.

A.A.: 7t creates an automatic flow into areas where you save energy.

(.!.: That goes $ack to the idea ; some people complain that the process of $itcoinmining, the $itcoin network, is >wasting energy.? 7t is not energy;efficient. Actually,no, it’s performing an incredi$ly useful function. 7t’s creating a payment network forthe entire world.

A.B.L.: 5es. A.A.: And it’s not 1ust mining, rightD eople think that the electricity that is spent mining

is 1ust to mint new coins, $ut it’s not. 7t’s also to secure all of the transactions that gointo it.

(.!.: 6o, those are an au*iliary reward for doing the creation of the network.

A.A.: /*actly, the creation of the network is the real function. (o, if you wanted tocompare mining to a real world payment network you’d have to add all of the cost ofarmored trucks, all of the cost of printing money all around the world, the metals thatgo into coins, the electricity into all the payment networks.

(.!.: The opportunities lost $ecause you can’t do transactions everywhere in the world.

A.A.: The fraud prevention networks, the security systems for not getting your socialsecurity card stolen, and all of the other stuff. The thing is, we e*ternali+e a lot ofthese costs, and we hide them as part of doing $usiness. !ost of the paymentnetworks consider anything up to "&@ in fraud loss as part of doing $usiness.

A.B.L.: Fight.

A.A.: 2ow much of that is accounted for when you’re comparing to the electricity costsof miningD

K76T/FLGE/(.!.: )ust to get $ack to the su$1ect of theft for a moment $ecause we were talking

a$out it, recently. There was something that came up on the panel last night. Theywere saying that there have $een a num$er of high;profile hacks where a lot of$itcoins have $een stolen $ut haven’t $een moved. They were moved someaddress or whatever, and then they haven’t $een moved. And some$ody, 7 think itwas the guy from Buttercoin8



A.A.: 5es, that was Bennett.

(.!.: Bennett, yeah, he $rought up the idea that of may$e there could $e at some point,there could $e kind of a pool of $itcoins that are >clean,? that have never $een usedfor illicit purposes, and you could spend those if you wanted some$ody to know thatthe $itcoins you’re spending are legit. There’s this other strata of $itcoins which may

have $een involved in fraud, or stolen, or used8.

A.A.: And are tainted.

(.!.: 5eah, so;called tainted $itcoins.

A.A.: 5es.

(.!.: The =uestion came up of why have these $itcoins that have $een stolen in thesehigh;profile thefts not $een movedD They haven’t cashed out. 7s it $ecause thecrooks are afraid of getting caught $y the e*changes themselves, or is it $ecausethey’re 1ust $asically holding them $ecause they think they’re going to $e more

valua$le in the futureD 6o$ody knows. A.B.L.: 3ith this pro$lem, 7 think that the solution is again to look at $anking. 3hat do

they do in $ank ro$$eriesD 5ou talk a$out an ink $om$, where essentially cashier8

A.A.: Laying low for a while, rightD

A.B.L.: 6o, no, no, $ut 7 mean, what do the $anks actually do to actually stop thisD

A.A.: -h, they taint the money.

A.B.L.: /*actly, they taint the money. And so that’s the solution, you 1ust have itregistered. 7t’s not like it’s hard to tell if a coin is stolen. (ome$ody reports, >hey, all

these coins were stolen.? 7f they use them themselves, there’s no reason to do that,$ecause you’re saying, >oh, well, these coins 7 still have are tainted and 7 don’t wantanyone to $e a$le to use them.? (o there’s no incentive to do that. (o long as youhave that private key from the transaction $efore, it 1ust seems like that registry issomething that’s going to have to $e $uilt and if it does, then it really disincentivesstealing anything $ecause if some$ody reports it you can’t use them. -f course,neither can the person who reported it, $ut that doesn’t matter anymore.

A.A.: 3ell, 7 think it’s important to e*plain a few of the underlying concepts here forsome of the listeners who don’t necessarily understand how this works. The$lockchain doesn’t hold $itcoin. 7t holds the transaction that e*change $itcoin. 3etalk a$out $itcoin $eing a pseudonymous or a pseudonymous network. /ssentially,the individuals who are attached to addresses are difficult to track $ecause youdon’t know who has which address and how many addresses they have. reat.That doesn’t mean the $itcoins themselves are pseudonymous or untracka$le. 7nfact, the e*act opposite ; the $itcoins that traverse through the network aretracka$le from the moment of genesis all the way until they are spent, and spent,and respent, and forever. /very single $itcoin has a uni=ue moment of genesis, aserial num$er, and it follows the transactions all the way through. 6ot the $itcoin



itself, $ut as it moved from transaction to transaction you can essentially create thistrail that leads $ack to the origin.

(.!.: That’s why ; wasn’t there some$ody a while $ack who was trying to collect all the$itcoins from the first fifty $locks or something like thatD

A.A.: 5es, indeed. 5eah, and you can. 6ow, the $itcoins themselves8

(.!.: 7f you could find them. 7 $et a lot of those are in like, >oh, 7 lost my password after 7encrypted my wallet, they’re gone forever.?

A.A.: 3e can track $itcoin from generation throughout and so the idea here is that assoon as you have a registry, you could essentially declare $itcoin as stolen. 2ere’sthe thing, you don’t need everyone to stop accepting that $itcoin. To Adam’s pointearlier, the $ig appeal of $itcoin is that the discount rate on fencing is low. 3ell, assoon as you take &@ of the markets and they agree to stop accepting that $itcoin,immediately, the discount on fencing will go through the roof. (uddenly, your $itcoinare only worth %&@ of face value, if they’re tainted. Because you can only spend

them say, on, 7 don’t know, (ilk Foad or8

A.B.L.: Fight, places where it doesn’t matter if they’re stolen, the market would’veaccepted them anyways.

A.A.: Completely illicit things, like $uying $anking stock, or drugs, or something reallyridiculously illegal like that.

(.!.: 7 guess it’s the sort of the same thing for cash, rightD

A.A.: 5eah.

(.!.: There are some places that are going to accept cash from anywhere, no

=uestions asked. -ther places, if you walk in with a lot of cash, they may havesome =uestions, they may want to verify your 7E, get some details on you orwhatever.

A.B.L.: 7f you walk in with cash covered with $lue ink8

A.A.: 5es, e*actly. 7f it’s purple fluorescent cash and it looks like it’s $een through acouple of wash cycles, yeah, it’s not going to $e easy to give that to anyone. (o,yeah, that function would work very well for Bitcoin, and it was another one of thosegreat insights that evening.

A.B.L.: (o do we think that there’s a potential for that to $e used for evilD 5ou talk a$out

registries for $itcoin and, suddenly, you’re into this whole thing where you’ve gotcentrali+ed registries. Gltimately, this could 1ust $e a new type of transaction that’smade essentially on $ehalf of the coins at the time they’re stolen.

A.A.: (o, it’s a consensus network. (o, as with the 7nternet, it’s a dou$le;edged sword.The 7nternet could $e the greatest li$erator in the world or the worst totalitariandystopia we’ve ever e*perienced. Bitcoin could also do $oth of those things. 7t’s aneutral currency and could $e manipulated. 2ere’s what 7 think would happen. 7f you



did have tracka$ility of $itcoin on that scale, people would really, really invest in$itcoin remi*ers. 7f those remi*ers then take tainted coins, then as long as you hadclean coins, you could remi* them into anonymity very easily.

A.B.L.: Fight.

A.A.: But you would not $e a$le to mi* your tainted coins. Again, it’s 1ust a matter ofgetting a suita$le num$er of remi*ers to do that and you lose the face value of the$itcoin that’s stolen.

(.!.: Those e*ist already, $y the way. 2ave you guys ever seen sites like $itcoinlaundryand, 7 think there’s one called +ero coin.

A.A.: 5es, they accept any coin, so if they stop taking tainted coin, they could essentiallyachieve the purpose of preventing stolen money $eing re;circulated while stillallowing avoiding essentially surveillance or mass surveillance of the form whereevery $itcoin is tracked. By the way, if you don’t think that that’s already happening,since 7 can do at home with my C on the eight giga$yte $lockchain, 7 can tell you

that every single $itcoin that is ever spent in every transaction is cross;correlatedand tracked in great detail somewhere in a $ig data center in Gtah $y the 6ational>(torage? Agency.

A.B.L.: -ne of the people at the meetup that we 1ust got finished with $efore coming todo this recording, talking with him, he’s a derivatives market maker, essentially.That’s what he was saying is that if he was in the C7A, this would a$solutely $e thething that he would track $ecause right now, if you want look at every singletransaction that happens in a given currency you need all kinds of court orders andit’s $asically impossi$le.

A.A.: 5ou don’t need any court orders anymore. 6ot since the atriot Act, you could look

at the $anking records without any court order whatsoever.

(.!.: 5eah, that’s true.

A.B.L.: That is true.

A.A.: But, this is much more tracka$le, it’s very transparent.

A.B.L.: That transparency goes $oth ways.

A.A.: Look, the Gtah data center has one trillion tera$ytes of storage,

A.B.L.: -J.

A.A.: And that’s $een verified $y a couple of independent whistle;$lowers. Eon’t worry,every single email, every single we$site, every single phone call,

(.!.: Te*t message.

A.A.: /very single $itcoin is on there.

(.!.: 5eah, $ut 7 mean, to a certain e*tent, who caresD



A.B.L.: 5eah.

(.!.: 3hat are they going to do a$out itD

A.A.: 3ell, what are they going to do a$out itD /*actly, that’s the issue. or me, 7 like tokeep a very pu$lic address for my $itcoin and use it to do very a$ove;$oard

tracking. 5ou see, that’s the flipside of this, and we talked a$out this in the conte*tof not;for;profits, is that $y having a pu$lic ledger you can also generateaccounta$ility. (o, eventually, government corrupts this and they start using Bitcoin,and guess whatD 3e can track them too.

A.B.L.: Fight.

(.!.: Fight.

A.A.: The counterpart to surveillance is sousveillance, a rench word that means,>watching from $elow.? 3e are getting closer and closer to a sousveillance society,

1ust as they’re getting closer and closer to a surveillance society. 3ho watches the

watchersD The watched. A.B.L.: /very$ody.

A.A.: /very$ody ; e*actly, e*actly. And then you can have some consensus a$out reallywhat is an unaccepta$le and evil transaction.

(.!.: 7 would say purchasing $om$s for dropping on $rown people overseas is anunaccepta$le use of $itcoin.

A.A.: 5es, and 7 think a lot of people would agree with you.

(.!.: And G( dollars.

A.A.: Fight, e*actly.

K7nterludeN!essage

A.B.L.: Let’s Talk Bitcoin has some e*citing things coming up on the hori+on, $ut wecan’t share details with you 1ust yet. To all the listeners, new and old, thank you verymuch for helping prove that real 1ournalism still has a place in this cra+y world weinha$it. 5our emails, donations, help and support have led to where are now, on theverge of something very powerful. -f course, the show is nothing without anaudience and while we appreciate your donations very much, the most importantthing is to share the show with friends and family who should ; $ut aren’t ; going to

$e educating themselves on the future of money. 7f you’re new Bitcoin and wouldlike to learn more, please visit LetsTalkBitcoin.comNlearn to $e directed to the Bitcoin/ducation ro1ect, a free series of lectures and classes a$out many of the aspectsof Bitcoin and the surrounding topics, created and curated $y Charles 2oskinson. 7highly recommend this educational resource. 3e’re also actively recruiting $oth onand off;air talent for this and other shows. 7f you’re interested, please contactadamOletstalk$itcoin.com

K/nd 7nterludeN!essage

mailto:[email protected]




A.B.L.: (o, one of the concepts that we’ve $een kicking around is the idea of >egCoin.?

A.A.: eg to dollarD

A.B.L.: 5eah, peg to dollar. 5ou can’t call it dollar coin. 7 know, 7 know.

A.A.: Let’s talk a$out it, $ecause 7 can tell you e*actly how that’s going to get screwed$eyond $elief.

(.!.: 5es4

A.B.L.: 2ere’s the pitch. The pitch is that the pro$lem with $itcoin is that it’s difficult tomove into and out of, from cryptocurrency to legacy currency. (o, what if youcreated an Altcoin chain that instead of trying to fi* something a$out Bitcoin,instead, $roke all the things that Bitcoin fi*es and essentially pegs itself to the sameissuance as G( dollar. (o, it does a couple of things. -ne, it means that vendorscan accept it without having to change their prices $ecause, functionally, it’s a one;to;one comparison. 7t also means that8

(.!.: ayments can $e sent anywhere.

A.B.L.: 5eah, payments can $e sent anywhere and so it gives that sort of relative>sta$ility? to8

(.!.: And it’s irreversi$le.

A.B.L.: And it’s irreversi$le, so you still have a lot of those things and most importantly,you can play $etween the two currencies. 5ou can easily move, $ecause it’s veryeasy if you want to $uy litecoins with $itcoins, that’s a super;duper easy transaction.7t doesn’t re=uire any sort of inC/6 regulations, doesn’t re=uire any sort ofdisclosures, it’s 1ust crypto;to;crypto. 3hy not make a functionally dollar cryptoD 5ou

can’t call it that $ecause if you call it dollar, immediately, it attracts the ire of the(ecret (ervice. 7f you had like, a >egCoin? that was attached to that then you couldplay it $oth ways. 7f you are uncomforta$le with the volatility of the market, youmove to the peg. 5ou’re potentially losing out or gaining, depending on what’shappening.

(.!.: A couple of thoughts a$out that. -ne, a peg really re=uires a central authority toenforce it.

A.B.L.: But there’s already one. There’s already a central authority,

A.A.: ed Feserve.

A.B.L.: The ederal Feserve, so you 1ust peg it to their revolving reports or you peg itto8

(.!.: But, how are you going to make sure the8ok, so, $asically, so 7 understand8

A.A.: This has $een done $efore. Let’s look at the history lesson $efore we try to figureout whether it’s possi$le or not. Let’s look at e*actly how this scenario played out,$ecause it’s played out several times the past several years. (weden tried to it,



Argentina tried to do it and at some point the British ound (terling tried to do it. 7tterms of keeping their relative volatility against the G( dollar sta$le. And whathappened, the famous phrase that comes from a hedge fund... Gh, 7 don’tremem$er who it was, whether it was eorge (oros or 3arren Buffett or some$odylike that who said, >Last person out, turn off the lights, $ecause they ar$itrage that

national currency into death.?(.!.: !mm;hmm.

A.A.: 7f you try to peg a smaller economy to a $igger economy, the volatility will whiplashthe smaller economy to shreds. /very single shift in volatility $ecomes anopportunity for ar$itrage and the stronger you try to peg it, the more money youhave to put in on the $uy side in order to stop the sell side people from unpegging it.

And what happens is, essentially, you create this $eautiful market of free money$ecause you’re trying to evade reality, and the reality is that the twelve trillion dollareconomy that’s the G( won’t $udge $ecause it’s twelve trillion dollars large, andyou’re trying not to $udge, $ut you don’t have the twelve trillion dollars $ehind you.

And guess what ; someone’s going to make a lot of money on that. And it’shappened again, and again, and again. Anytime someone’s tried to peg a currencyto any currency or any standard, in fact ; the gold fiasco of an ina$ility to grow$eyond the gold standard was an attempt to peg all the currencies to somethingsta$le and ignore the fact that they had inherent volatility. And, what happensD 5ouar$itrage the hell $eyond gold and currencies or you ar$itrage the hell $etweendollars and pegs. 5ou can do it and it will fail misera$ly.

A.B.L.: -k, $ut let me challenge on that $ecause yeah, you’re right with other currencieswhere you have that sort of latency. But, with a cryptocurrency, it’s all a$out thealgorithms. 5ou $uild it so that it 1ust keeps up, 7 mean, isn’t that the thingD

A.A.: 5eah, you could do that, $ut there would still $e a discrepancy $etween that andother cryptocurrencies.

A.B.L.: (o it’s the si+e.

A.A.: 2ere’s the pro$lem, you could trade from that peg currency into any othercryptocurrency instantly $ut you could not trade from that peg currency into dollarsinstantly. That would create a massive im$alance that would give you ar$itrageopportunity of >egcoin? against $itcoin and you’d make a ton of $itcoin, shortingpeg coin. And sure, it would $e remain pegged until no$o$y’s trading it $ecausethey no longer $elieve that that peg value is what people will pay for it.

(.!.: But isn’t kind of8this whole thing could $e kind of irrelevant $ecause there have$een people $efore who have talked a$out using Bitcoin’s properties as a paymentnetwork, independent of the e*change rate $etween $itcoins and dollars. (o, like,it’s a way to send and receive payments. 7t’s not necessarily a commodity and sortof decoupling those two things. And that works if you can get $etween $itcoins anddollars fast enough.

A.A.: 5ou have to get in and out fast enough.



(.!.: 5es.

A.A.: ;inaudi$le; $ut in and out fast enough, yeah.

(.!.: Fight. 7 think $Bitpay does a decent 1o$ with that. 7f there were a lot more peoplewho wanted to use that service in that way perhaps, it may overload it $ut then

there would $e more opportunities for people to 1ust fill the same niche. erhaps, 1ust $itcoin, we don’t need a pegged coin, we can 1ust use $itcoin itself for thatpurpose.

A.A.: 7 think the volatility pro$lems of $itcoin are twofold. -ne is the lack of sufficientvolume and li=uidity in the market to 1ust $uffer volatility. 7f you have a Titanic;si+edeconomy, it doesn’t turn on a dime. That’s a $ad thing, $ut it’s also a good thing$ecause it provides sta$ility. The other reason is $ecause of the deflationary nature,people go in these cycles of hoard, panic, hoard, panic, and that creates volatility.3e can solve the first one $y adding more li=uidity and volume. 3e’re not sure, atleast 7’m not sure, that we can solve the second one yet. That may lead to all thecoins doing a $it $etter if they can solve the deflationary issue, a $it $etter. But, aslong as there’s friction $etween fiat and cryptocurrencies, that friction will generatevolatility, and if you try to pretend that doesn’t e*ist, you’re going to pay for that, andsomeone’s going to make a lot of money making you pay for that.

(.!.: The first speaker last night was the C/- of /*pensify. 7 can’t remem$er his name.Eo you guys remem$erD

A.B.L.: Eavid8

(.!.: 5eah, Eavid8

A.B.L.: 7 can’t recall his last name.

(.!.: -k, yeah, well, may$e we’ll find out later. 2e was kind of introducing the wholepanel thing and he said, >there’s a $unch of characters involved in $itcoin. irst,there’s these crypto;anarchists who kind of want to li$erate the world, and thenthere’s these idealists, and then there’s the currency speculators, and we put themlast of all. They’re the worst of any$ody that every$ody hates them most.? 7 thoughtthat was kind of interesting.

A.A.: 5eah. Currency speculators, at least in the naked currency speculation and theinstitutionali+ed version of that are necessary. Gnfortunately, no one likes the animalthat picks on the corpses of other animals. 3e don’t like vultures and we don’t likehyenas. As necessary as they are, we don’t like maggots. 5eah, they’re maggots.

They’re necessary, $ut they’re still maggots.

(.!.: KLaughter Fight.

A.B.L.: 3e had a meetup at ordon Biersch today at noon and it was supposed to gonoon to two. 3e showed up, Crystal and 7, my wife, showed up wondering if anyonewas going to $e there. 3e’d gotten a$out twenty F(0s and it was really a lot offun. There were8



(.!.: 5eah, it rocked. 7 had so much fun, 7 talked to almost every$ody there. There werea couple of people 7 wanted to talk to $ut 7 didn’t =uite catch them. Theconversations were fascinating, 1ust discovering that 7 had a lot in common withpeople who came there, got so many compliments on the show. 7 guess those werethe people who like our show $ecause they were coming to meet up with us, $ut it

felt great to know that people were listening and that they wanted to hang out withus. 7 had a lot of fun.

A.B.L.: A$solutely. 7 mean, $eyond that for me, the thing was that 7 like to surroundmyself with people who are smarter than me and my god, the conversations thatyou’re a$le to have at something like this, it’s great. The level that we’re talking at issomething, you know, like ; 7 have to go on the 7nternet to get this. 7t was a lot of funand8

A.A.: !uch faster and you get the feed$ack right away, you know. A$solutely, you don’twant to $e the smartest person in the room. Being smart is also a $it of a vector,rightD (o, even if the other person was as smart, they were smart at a different

angle.

A.B.L.: Fight, yeah.

(.!.: !mm;hmm.

A.A.: And so that really created some tremendous opportunities for getting new ideas ina completely different field from the one you’re thinking a$out. 7 have to tell youguys, the first Let’sTalkBitoin meetup we did today was a$out a =uarter of the si+e ofthe meetup 7 went to a couple of weeks ago. 7 think you now know why 7’m soe*cited a$out these things. And so, what 7 hope is that this is not 1ust the first ofLet’sTalkBitcoin meetups, $ut the first of many. Let’s keep doing this.

A.B.L.: 5eah, a$solutely. 3e’re going to have to transition that group from a (an )ose%&"' group 1ust to a generic that can kind of $e wherever.

A.A.: 5up. And 7’m going to $e organi+ing some more (an )ose meetups as well in thene*t few weeks.

(.!.: Cool, 7’ll have to fly in from 6ew 2ampshire.

A.B.L.: KLaughter

(.!.: et my private 1et, vroom;vroom.

A.B.L.: 5eah, vroom;vroom. Alright, well, we have a speaker’s dinner in a$out si*minutes it looks like, so we’re going to wrap it up. -nce again, thanks for tuning in tothis special episode of Let’sTalkBitcoin.

(.!.: 5eah, we’ll have more reporting from the conference, too.

A.B.L.: -h my god, yeah, you’ve $een recording every$ody at the meetup. 5ou did twoor three interviews.

(.!.: 7 did a couple of interviews.



A.B.L.: 5eah.

(.!.: 5eah, and 7 know you have $een too, Adam.

A.B.L.: Ah, yeah.

(.!.: 3e’ll $e giving you the content. A.B.L.: 5eah, there’s no shortage of content to $e had here. reat, well, until ne*t time, 7

am Adam.

(.!.: 7’m (tephanie.

A.A.: 7’m Andreas. This is Let’s Talk Bitcoin.

(tephanie: 3oo;hoo4

K-utro !usic

A.B.L.: Thanks for tuning in to episode nine of Let’s Talk Bitcoin, whether you liked,

loved or hated the show we want to hear what you think. lease, send all listenerfeed$ack, comments or =uestions to adamOletstalk$itcoin.com. 7f you’re like meand 1ust can’t get enough information and perspective on Bitcoin, check out ourdaily newspaper at thedaily$itcoin.com, where you’ll find the $est news presentingarticles and arguments from all sides of the issue. Thanks to Andreas !.

Antonopolous and Er. (tephanie !urphy for providing content for this show. !usicfor this episode was provided $y )ared Fu$ens. 5ou can find links to the songs weuse and the open;source artists who make them at letstalk$itcoin.comNmusic. Check$ack tomorrow for the first of many $onus content releases. 3e’re kicking things offwith my interview with /rik 0oorhees, the man who gave himself to Bitcoin andmoved to anama to facilitate that goal. 3e talk the future, the past, and more. 7

really en1oyed our talk and 7 think you will, too. (tay tuned.

K-utro !usic



let's talk bitcoin, episode 09, "bitcoin 2013 kickoff!"

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