LETS TALK BITCOINEpisode 75 Legitimacy and Permission

Participants:

Adam B. Levine (AL) - HostRob Banagale (RB) Founder & CEO of Gliph

Inside Bitcoins Las Vegas Conference Participants

Stewart Quealy (SQ) Director of Content/Events @ MediaBistroIzzy Klein (IK) Principal at Podesta GroupRobert Cho (RC) Vice President at Second MarketAdam Ettinger (AE) Managing Partner and General Counsel at Strategic CounselEric Benz (EB) Vice President of Business Dev. For ZipZapAndreas M. Antonopoulos (AA) Co-host Lets Talk BitcoinAudience Questions (AQ)

AL: Today is January 14th 2014. Welcome to Episode 75 of Lets Talk Bitcoin, a twice weekly show about the ideas, people and projects building the digital economy and the future of money. Visit us at www.letstalkbitcoin.com for our daily guest blog, all our past episodes and, of course, tipping addresses. My name is Adam B. Levine and today were talking about legitimacy and permission in the world of Bitcoin. Rob Banagale is the founder and CEO of Gliph, an application that lets you securely communicate and until recently, send or receive bitcoins as easily as text message; no address required. Apples App Store had other opinions on the matter. Rob shares a little of the history behind Bitcoin and the App Store and explores a little of the thinking that might be behind this approach.

But first, weve got the final panel from the Las Vegas Inside Bitcoins event from December 11th 2013. This panel discusses the legitimacy of Bitcoin from a variety of perspectives. I think you will enjoy it. This panel features Izzy Klein, Robert Cho, Adam Ettinger, Eric Benz, Andreas M. Antonopoulos and was moderated by Ardon Lukasiewicz. Enjoy the show! [1:10]

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Las Vegas Inside Bitcoins Conference December 11th 2013

SQ: Welcome to the final panel. I dont know if anybody has been over to the social gaming summit which was taking place over on the side, but Ardon Lukasiewicz, who is the founder of Bitmarkers has done a couple of presentations over there. He did a Bitcoins 101 session actually earlier for the gamers. Weve got him back now. He also does financial analysis for Aria Casino, so hes got a lot of experience and hes going to corral our panellists, choreograph this panel and take it home for us because this is the last one, right? Lets make it good guys. Lets give him a big round of applause. (Applause) [1:42]

Ardon L: Thanks. I think Id like to start off with just a round of applause for Stewart and everything hes done here with Inside Bitcoins. (Applause) Its been a lot of fun and I know weve all sort of grown our professional network just being around other people as crazy as we all are about bitcoins. At least, makes me believe that this is going somewhere and Im not just a crazy and alone. Thank you for that. Id like to introduce our great panelists. We were speaking over lunch and kind of going back and forth already with our point of views. It should definitely be very interesting. We have Andreas with Route 11; we have Adam, whos a partner at Strategic Counsel Corp; Eric with ZipZap; Izzy with Podesta Group and Robert Cho with Second Market. We kind of have everyone, lobbyist groups, legal and Ill let you guys go ahead and make short introductions of yourselves. Lets start on this end. [2:58]

IK: Very briefly, Im a principal at the Podesta Group. My name is Izzy Klein. Ive been paying attention to the virtual currency space for quite a while. I have a few former clients, including Robert at Second Market and a few other folks in this space and look forward to hearing what the rest of my co-panellists have to say. Ive really enjoyed the conference thus far. Thanks Stewart. [03:24]

RC: Hi, Im Bobby Cho. Im the Vice President at Second Market, which is a broker dealer registered in New York and Im also the head, spearhead of Bitcoin trading at Second Market, along with my group also is authorized participant to the Bitcoin Investment Trust, or the BIT, as we like to call it. Im really excited to be here. [3:48]

AE: My name is Adam Ettinger and Im an attorney. I counsel technology companies, especially in the startup phase, pre-public and more and more since the middle of last year, Bitcoin companies in different sectors, whether its mining or payments. Im happy to see a lot of my clients were here this year and going farther. Its just been a lot of fun. I also represent a number of investors that have become very active this year in the Bitcoin space. Most of my work is in the Silicon Valley and some in Los Angeles. [4:23]

EB: My name is Eric for VP Bus. Dev. for ZipZap. Im currently focusing on Europe, Middle East, Africa and Asia markets; more for the developing areas. What were doing with ZipZap is were growing our global cash payment network. You guys probably remember us when we were operating in the States with BitInstant. Were growing our model into different markets right now. Ive been really travelling a lot Baltics, Europe, Africa as well, so a lot coming from us starting from January, so really excited about it. [5:00]

AA: Hi, Im Andreas Antonopoulos. Im a co-host on Lets Talk Bitcoin and Im writing the OReilly book for Bitcoin. Im very interested in Bitcoin in the developing world and the other six billion. [5:14]

Ardon L: Since you last spoke, and youre with the developers world, how has Bitcoins origin from cryptography groups shaped and impacted the trust relationships currently inside of the community? How would you say? [5:30]

AA: I think Bitcoin really revolutionizes trust by changing trust from a model where trust is achieved through exclusion of access, which is the traditional financial model to one where trust is enabled through computation. What that means is you can create an open access network where anyone can connect, innovate at the edges and have immediate access to a world economic network with full trust in the system. Trust is decentralized, its peer to peer and its given directly to empower the individual. That model is radical, its revolutionary and its going to change the world. (Applause) [6:06]

Ardon L: Just curious who here (obviously there is financial reasons, too) but who here... is trust the most important reason that you are following Bitcoin... with openness? Its very interesting. Any other? Id say the next topic would be legitimacy and where the current state of that would be and Ill pass it over to Robert. [6:39]

RC: I think were in a really interesting phase right now. Regulation in the US is really yet to be seen which I think will happen in Q1 of next year, Q2 as regulators wrap their heads around it. Regarding legitimacy, I think that what were seeing is a weeding out of the illegitimate players from maybe a year or two ago, to more the legitimate players. I think its just a natural progression of the market along with the players involved. I think that we need that to occur for real venture institutional money, the institutional guys to really get involved to bridge that gap. [7:15]

Ardon L: Any other comments? [7:18]

AE: I was thinking about it more today that I remember in 1994/5 as the Internet began to commercialize, it went through very much the same sort of cycle into legitimacy as it went into the mind space. The number one ISP in the country, at the time, it was when one of my first clients was NetCom which I think, had 100,000 or even less than that, as the Internet started to open up and was still the number one ISP in 1996 with a half million accounts. What was happening was so many of the people that saw the vision for the Internet, the openness, the capability of what this platform would do and what it could enable, started to meet more with venture money, started to meet more with a different professional entrepreneurship. Some of it merged, some people got rolled over but as people became more aware, all the other processes actually got to get involved, such as regulatory controls and us trying to figure out and figuring out how its all going to work at the end of the day. People became more accustomed to it. Its not so much the legitimacy of the platform, whether its the Internet platform, TCP/IP or Bitcoin protocols and everything that goes with it, but the entire ecosystem of users, of companies that are moving it forward and the investors that help them. In the last month, were seeing that really... and this does remind me of sort of 1995 when Kleiner Perkins financed Netscape. It wasnt the first mosaic browser, unfortunately. Some of the first innovators werent there soon afterwards. Were seeing this again with Andreessen Horowitz which is really a thought leader and a lead investor in the Silicon Valley. Its one of the firms that other firms watch; being interested in this; adding partners to move towards it which was... they added one new partner just on 9th. Excel Partners coming in to (??). It raises the bar in many ways but it also is going to give confidence to the entire network. It is something like that that may help to fix the number one complaint Ive heard here which is Hey, our companies dont have access to banks. [9:51]

Ardon L: Mhmm. Yeah and legitimacy is definitely goes hand in hand. Even the largest companies in Bitcoin, weve seen nearly a 180 flip of how they were probably a year ago and how now. One thing thats always been important with Bitcoin, as well, has been the transparency of the network. One of the hottest topics of recent has been Bitcoin address blacklisting, KYC and AML compliance hurdles and most specifically, companies such as Coinvalidation. Is there anyone who this directly affects? I guess ZipZap, or Andreas?

AA: Sure. First of all, slightly on the previous topic, I reject the very concept of legitimacy as something that we should seek, need or require in Bitcoin. Legitimacy is a word bandied around by the most corrupt, morally bankrupt forces on this planet to try to smear Bitcoin. (Applause) We dont need legitimacy, we didnt ask for permission and we dont require the approval of anyone. Bitcoin is here, it works and the forces that ask us or try to give us legitimacy are themselves morally bankrupt so why should we care, first. Secondly, on the issue of Coinvalidation; these attempts to somehow fix the Bitcoin protocol to prevent theft, will not only fail but will reintroduce at the core of the protocol the types of controls and levers of power that have traditionally used to corrupt and influence the currency. Those are exactly the forces we pushed out of the core of Bitcoin and we dont need them. In fact, they would have a corrosive influence from the very beginning and they would spell the doom of Bitcoin, the currency. They wont work and Ill tell you why they wont work. When HSBC launders money through Bitcoin, FairCoins wont get blacklisted, WikileaksCoins will, GreenpeaceCoins will. The forces of descent with an oppressive government will have their coins blacklisted but guess what, HSBC could sue whoever creates that blacklist and terminate their operation. If we have blacklists within Bitcoin, we are introducing a counter party risk that introduces the entire legal system back into a system thats based on trust between two parties only two parties. The only requirement to redeem a transaction on Bitcoin, is that you have the necessary code to solve the equation. Thats it. Thats where Bitcoin gets its legitimacy from. (Applause). [12:36]

Ardon L: Thats definitely where the communitys thoughts have been from the start but especially with companies like Second Market, there does have to be the proper interaction between the two financial worlds. Youre in the middle of that too. Whats your thoughts, especially with BitInstant? You guys have been there. [13:13]

EB: Yeah. Weve gone through some of the hurdles and everything else with compliance and regulation. The approach that were taking is obviously, every customer that comes through us and using cash to get Bitcoin, we do the KYC process and the onloading with the exchanges. We dont hold any funds. Were not an exchange ourselves but we are enabling an easier, quicker way in which cash can get into exchanges from consumers. The everyday consumer, the shop keeper in Africa needing to get Bitcoin, or emerging markets that need that quick access for 100, or 50, or 10. Were really targeting that mainstream consumer adoption really. We can talk about financial instruments, and derivatives, and Forex and all that stuff which is great but we really need to look at what Bitcoin can do for emerging markets. We really need to focus on how we can improve the economies in Africa and Asia and all over the world really. Again, were taking a stance on remittance ourselves so, here we are as a nation of giving these developing nations billions and billions and billions of dollars of aid every single year, yet we charge them billions and billions of dollars of remittance fees. In this equation, something doesnt make sense and that needs to stop right now. Period. (Applause) When you send money say you send $100 to Kenya right now, that $100, youre going to have to spend $40 to send it. This person receiving the money in Kenya imagine if they were receiving $40 more every time you sent $100. This is the market that needs to be flipped upside down on its head, big time. Seriously. Seriously. (Applause) If there was one area of Bitcoin that we could target right now, and itll make a massive change globally, its in the remittance market everywhere. [15:17]

AA: Yeah. You think the other six billion who are dealing with that kind of stuff care about legitimacy? Yeah, exactly. They care about the fact that they are getting ripped off by international corporations that are sucking money out of the system from the poorest people in the world. [15:32]

AE: Isnt that legitimacy? (Audience laughter) In other words, knowing that Im going to get what somebody sends me and Im going to get the whole amount, to me, thats a legitimate transaction. I mean, maybe its a semantic issue. I dont think that any industry should own the word and I think that, if anything, because legitimacy or trust can get coded into Bitcoin, can get coded into that I mean, thats the real beauty I think of it. Also, the opportunity to give people the amount that they want. In other words, there are a number of people this week that are showing off third party signatures for escrow. Ultimately, its a trust mechanism, in a way. [16:14]

AA: Algorithmic trust. [16:15]

AE: Right. [16:16]

AA: Thats not how the word is used most of the time when were hearing these discussions. Its used in reference to control over the destination of your money. Its used in reference to political control over the recipient and thats a whole different ballgame. I totally agree with you. If were talking about transactional legitimacy, thats a matter of simply verifying the execution of the output. That is legitimacy in the algorithm that is trust, right in the algorithm and it doesnt involve any counter parties. Thats the magic of Bitcoin. Thats not how the word is used most of the time in these discussions. [16:49]

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Ardon L: Especially when you try and apply to Bitcoin now to real world uses, there does have to usually be some sort of center of trust, since the community is coming around to purchase goods and products from each other. Specifically, the closure of Silk Road has increased Bitcoin legitimacy directly after, and we saw that with the price and with mainstream media but the underlying frame trust work especially with that community was damaged. I still feel, from what I see, it still is damaged and also Bitcoin is known for complex scam tactics. How do these two groups mix? Izzy, lets start with you. [19:09]

IK: I understand Andreas point earlier but I will say that there are legitimate fraud and other issues that will keep policy makers, regulators, etc up at night and law enforcement. Those are issues that are going to have to be tackled by the community at large. Theyre going to have to be tackled not by displaying the kind of trust that entrenched power needs to see, but by telling a narrative. I remember a speaker on one of the previous panels talking about were looking forward to the day when the invention of Bitcoin by a software developer ten years ago, wont be the first thing thats mentioned in every story. I agree with that. I think that there is a whole world of, not just Bitcoin itself, but other virtual currencies and alternate payment rails that are being developed across the globe that is an amazing alternative to the existing payment rails and a lower cost alternative. Thats democratizing. Thats good for people in the third world. Thats good for everybody. That narrative is not necessarily being told in Washington. There were a couple of hearings that you all, Im sure, watched. Many of you probably watched. Thats only the beginning. There will be more hearings. There will be policy written, either by the regulators or by the legislators that will affect this industry and this community. Getting out in front of it, explaining how this all works to people is important. Most people dont understand what a bitcoin is. Most people dont understand how our existing payment systems work. Visa or MasterCard they dont understand it. Its complicated. [21:42]

Ardon L: You brought up an interesting point and I feel a lot of people especially with prominent people as yourself, we always want your opinion on how did the Senate hearings go? Where do you see that direction? Whats 2014 looking like from that angle? Lets take Adam. Maybe a little further into that. [22:06]

IK: I dont want to filibuster but I will say, just very briefly, and then Ill pass it onto Robert, that I think that there will be more hearings. I think that the hearings that were held this past month were actually very positive. I couldnt imagine them having gone better but one of the hearings had one Senator sitting there the whole time and the other had four or five. The level of participation is not particularly high right now but it will be. I think that thats something that you need to keep in mind. I mean, things dont just magically happen in Washington. Congress is a stimulus/response organization. Something happens like Silk Road so hearings are held. Silk Road is busted by law enforcement so hearings are held. [23:04]

Ardon L: How do you think the Chinese news is now? How will that affect it? [23:09]

IK: Im going to stop talking. Im going to pass it on over here. [23:13]

RC: Yeah. Ill touch on the Senate hearings. Us, at Second Market, we feel like were pretty in tune with whats going on down in DC. The tone from the beginning of the year to the end of the year has shifted, I think, and I think we all agree thats its gone from kind of a negative tone to more of a maybe not so positive, but maybe more OK, lets learn how this can help us. I think thats the way that its going and I think thats the way that it will continue to go. To kind of touch on I think it was FinCEN, the woman at FinCEN (I cant remember her name) but she had mentioned that still the US dollar is still the best way to money launder. Its still the best way to operate in the black market, or whatever you want to call it. Bitcoin its pseudo-anonymous. I think that we can all agree that there comes a point where it is going to exist, to touch on Silk Road, something like that will exist in every currency, every denomination. Its unavoidable but its what can we do to get past that and to bring it to kind of more of a legitimate light. [24:21]

Ardon L: Very interesting. [24:25]

EB: Just to add to that. The problem here is the financial services are completely broken. I mean, we know that; weve labelled that; this is why were here; this is why were speaking. I just have a couple of notes here like regulation is a necessary friction. Obviously, were talking about that and we need smart regulation that doesnt stifle innovation. We need to really make sure that we maintain innovation without stifling it and then moving it into other markets which is exactly what you guys are doing here. Again, there is no such thing as 100% anonymity with Bitcoin. We believe in privacy not anonymity. Thats just kind of where were heading with that and again, compliance is also a competitive advantage, and staying out of jail is also a competitive advantage, right? If you do the compliance right, youll reduce fraud yada, yada. Its a real... I mean, it doesnt need to be complicated. Were not reinventing the wheel. We just need to kind of make sure that were staying within that regulatory framework. [25:31]

AE: If I can follow up on that. One thing Ive always had to deal with in my practice is new technologies run into old laws and there are the entrepreneurs that will ignore it and run past, or the entrepreneurs that have to run head on, and then theres this unanticipated hit. It went from trying to get... I was representing what was the number one firewall company in the United States in 19.. God, Im starting to sound old... 1997, and we couldnt get the products out. The Department of State is the one and you have to go through this rigmarole back then and basically, it was on the same technology list as nuclear equipment. To try and explain that its a firewall. It was a terribly complex thing to do and the bureaucracy that was there was not... didnt have the facility to be able to keep up in real time, or even respond to it in any kind of measurable way and we would have lost the lead. As individual entrepreneurs, as people trying to secure the Internet, as people trying to make businesses and individuals safer which is not governments objective. At the time, I actually came up with the crazy idea wait a second, maybe I can just call somebody who is in the State Department and I ended up calling the two Senators from California. One of them later wrote me he was too busy impeaching the President at the time, as I recall. Im sorry, Congress woman. Two Congress people in the right jurisdictions, but the Congress woman from Palo Alto ended up helping to explain and we were able to move things forward and ultimately, the law changed. There was another time when the Church of Scientology sort of proved by its litigation that State law could cause the ISPs and other Internet providers to be liable under State law. That would have shut down most of, what we know of, as the Internet. [27:25]

AA: It wouldnt shut it down, it would just move it abroad and thats the real issue we should be talking about here. The Senate hearings were successful because they backed off for a tiny bit and Im so glad Tony Gallippi was there to do a spectacular job in talking about jobs, and votes, and growth opportunities. The truth is, that if the US cracks down and regulates Bitcoin, Bitcoin doesnt lose. The US loses because all of the innovation and all of the jobs are going to go elsewhere. This is a new world were living and you can scream at the meteor and its trails but if youre a dinosaur, youre going to get it. (Applause) [28:04]

AE: Im very much in support of that but one thing that I heard during the Senate hearings which I was not expecting to hear is again and again, people testifying saying that they recognized that they didnt want to ... how much veracity in their statements, well find out... but that they didnt want to stifle it, that they didnt want to see it go (?? Inaudible) [28:23]

AA: This is really an issue about jobs and innovation. The thing is Bitcoin enables innovation at the edges without permission. If the innovation cant happen here, its going to move abroad. To the point of whether you need to stay out of jail, or deal with regulators, or the Silk Road issue listen, the greatest heist in the history of humanity happened in 2008 and no one went to jail. (Applause) Right now, were dealing with regulators who are chasing around Silk Road which is like a gnat, while they could take the bus 40 blocks south and go to the corner of Water and Wall Street and find the real crooks who have complete immunity because they own the banks. Im not interested in discussing regulation from the perspective of people who are absolutely corrupt, completely bought off and are operating in a system thats raped from top to bottom. The whole point of Bitcoin is to be able to move outside of that system. Here it is difficult to have that discussion, but trust me, the other six billion know exactly what were talking about because for them, this is a matter of life and death. Its not about regulation, its about corrupt and oppressive governments. Were having this little side discussion in the US about whether we should apply strange antiquated laws. Guess what? Those laws are there to protect incumbents from competition. When was the last time one of these regulators protected consumers? I dont think thats a legitimate conversation. (Applause) I dont think thats the way we should be looking at this. [29:50]

Ardon L: Since weve kind of touched on the now, and sort of the past, I think rolling out of that, lets start with Andreas again, is where do you see the future of these trust relationships, especially if the community did stay at its core values even more than it predictably looks like it will. Where do you see the next five years, ten years? Whats the end goal? [30:19]

AA: I think weve reached a point where Bitcoin is now global. Its got the attention of the world and its, at least from external forces, pretty much unstoppable. The only question is if were going to fail from some kind of internal bug that disrupts Bitcoin. Guess what? They are going to be really surprised the next morning when we bootstrap another currency on the same platform because Bitcoin isnt a currency. Bitcoin is a technology platform that allows a distributed (??) ledger. Its one of the most astonishing inventions of the century and it cannot be uninvented. If they spoil this currency, well boot another one and another one after that. I would suggest the next one we put in strong anonymity and CoinJoin in every transaction and every wallet, by default, always on cant turn it off because thats the kind of battle were in right now. We made the mistake on the Internet of not applying Tor from the very beginning and now weve got the NSA, like a parasite on the global brain, sucking all the information up. We need to learn from that mistake and we need to not repeat it. This is not just an issue for us because at the same time that the NSA is studying the blockchain (and trust me, they are), were going to have every oppressive government in the world tracking every dissident down, dragging them out of their houses, torturing and killing them because they made a transaction on the Bitcoin network. For those people, this stuff is really damn important. Im interested in looking at how we can strengthen the core infrastructure of Bitcoin, enable strong anonymity and then let the protocol alone and do all of the innovation in the layers above. Weve already got a winning solution. Its worked perfectly fine and I want to see as little done to it as possible, from now on. (Applause) [32:02]

Ardon L: To stay on the future - to legitimize Bitcoin, I know a lot of us are starting Bitcoin businesses and you guys obviously have, what legitimizing events do you feel needs to take place, or do you foresee? Lets even say for something such as Second Market. [32:27]

BC: For the future looking forward, basically, I think that for me and I think for Second Market, basically, my background is fixed income. Im a fixed income trader and I got into Bitcoin in January of this year. Basically, from my perspective, I think its basically bridging the gap between traditional investors and kind of the new technology that we see as Bitcoin, or the innovation. Weve done that through the Bitcoin Investment Trust, the private fund that we have launched in September. I think that a gentleman had mentioned something about Fidelity, and Fidelity allowing people to basically allow their clients to invest in Bitcoin but thats not exactly correct. Basically, you have to be an accredited investor, accredited individual and you can invest through yourself directed IRA through Fidelity, as we partnered with them, to invest in the fund. In my perspective, I think the future is to continue to bridge the gap between the institutional folks and the technology folks and just kind of help them manage that process. [33:36]

AE: I think its going to be innovation and permeation and variation. The applications of Bitcoin are a lot like a genetic algorithm and right now, what were seeing is so many different people taking it and figuring out for themselves how to use it not just how to create a new business around it but how to use it. I remember one of the better stories I read was a PBS story about a farmer who found... and there is no reason this man should have stumbled upon Bitcoin but it ended up solving (an American farmer), many of his issues with how he has to run his business. As more and more people get involved in it, more and more countries, more and more creations... more and more innovation happens in different directions, it permeates. We begin to find the story about how it changes things for the better, (this is very true of the Internet too) begins to far outweigh the stories of Oh, you could lose your this, or somebody could be doing that, or this ponzi over there and people begin to see it for themselves, ultimately. [34:42]

Ardon L: Do you feel that the current cycle of media is more legitimizing? Obviously, a lot of people feel any press is good press but typically the technology is not reported on, the benefits arent necessarily reported on. Its always price; this guys now a millionaire and huge busts, black markets. How do you guys feel the media has played a role? [35:10]

RC: We all know that the media has to sell papers and they have to get viewership. I think that all that news out there, for the people in this room that they understand that a lot of it is not true, or quasi true. I think they are trying to do the best that they can in terms of portray it to the average customer, the average viewer. I would say that, I think that its shifting a little bit but still the tone is a little bit negative. The tone isnt so positive. Hopefully, well see a shift in that towards the beginning of next year. [35:44]

AE: I think its going to be improved the same way. Up to now, when a news outlet has a story about Bitcoin, Ive seen either a picture of the Silk Road mastermind, or bitcoins, you know bitcoins, those coins and theyre still showing coins. The reason for that is there is not a lot of heads to show. They like showing talking heads and right now, they dont have a lot of talking heads to show. With Tesla, they found... youll notice, they dont show the car nearly as much as they show Elon Musk. When we have those innovators, whether its people helping other people in the Third World as theyve never been helped before, or its going to be a Silicon Valley company, or a Tennessee company, or a Singaporean company, or an Argentinian company that has innovated in a wonderful way that ends up making its users pleased and happy, or wealthier. Those heads are going to be in the press and that will improve the quality of the story coming out. [36:53]

Ardon L: Dont you think that that shift is changing where its the faces of the Barry Silberts of the world, the Jeremy Allaires of the world, the Andreessen Horowitz of the world? [37:03]

AE: You and I live in a very small world. (Laughter) Most people are not reading the newspapers that have... yeah... what Im saying is, in the public minds sphere, I dont think that they actually could pick out Mr Allaire in a lineup, or even Andreessen. Elon, probably. [37:24]

IK: Yeah, I dont think the media per se... I mean, yes ok, good press, bad press, everybody knows about Bitcoin. Its getting a lot more public awareness, thats great but they have not done justice by not giving information to the mainstream community and users everywhere about the social benefits of Bitcoin. We can talk all day long about social benefits and what it can do for all the emerging markets, especially with new merchants and selling goods online etc. I really think that the media outlets and... you know, its partly our job as well, to educate these media outlets in order to bring them up to speed and make sure that the information theyre putting out there is harping on about these social benefits because it is a very important area that needs a lot of focus right now. The VCs in the room and the VCs that have been here, were talking about all the financial instruments and all the money being pumped into the ecosystem, but what about pumping the money into the ecosystem to actually improve the life of all these other six billion people in the world. Its extremely important and I think that that as far as a use case, to (as we say now in this talk) legitimize Bitcoin. Its needed 100%.

Ardon L: One of the previous groups discussed self-regulating as well, so Andreas, whats your thoughts on including that? [38:57]

AA: Im actually a member of the media so Id like to just touch on that for just a second. I think theres an interesting possibility that Bitcoin enables the kind of micro-transactions that can give a breath of life to a dying medium. Right now, its no coincidence that the corporate mainstream media are obsessing with trivialities and delegitimizing Bitcoin. They are on a mission. They are on a mission to maintain a status quo that allows them to continue to publish trivialities. Whats happening right now is not that the media is delegitimizing Bitcoin, the media is delegitimizing themselves and we have the opportunity, with Bitcoin, to enable the kinds of alternative media that an entire generation of young people are now depending on to get real important information about the world thats not about the Kardashians. Let the media continue to do their trivialization because quite honestly, theres another six billion people out there who are going to adopt Bitcoin. Bitcoin adoption is the most important thing get it out there, get it to other people and keep moving it forward so that more and more people can experience it, and use it, and let the media continue to trivialize and delegitimize themselves. [40:07]

Ardon L: Very powerful. [40:09]

AA: (Applause) Sorry, I can talk about the other topic but I just wanted to touch on media. [40:13]

Ardon L: I completely agree, especially... its interesting how Bitcoin really... it helps rich people, it helps poor people and helps everyone in between. Its amazing on massive transactions as well as very small ones. One of the previous groups, they talked about self-regulation, so I guess, maybe lets move over to Izzy. Whats your thoughts on Bitcoin self-regulation? [40:44]

IK: OK, I think that first of all, just on the media point, theres a level of bravado I think among some folks in this community... (laughter) ... that is warranted because you all are innovating at a level that I dont think people, regular people, understand. Thats awesome! However, because they dont understand it, doesnt mean that you can just dismiss them because some of them are going to be regulating Bitcoin whether we like it or not, some of them are going to be making other policies that shut off avenues that Bitcoin should be able to travel down. [41:48]

AA: I dont disagree with that. [41:50]

IK: Let me just finish for a second. I think that the better job this community does at educating both the mainstream media and the speciality media as well as policy makers around the world, not just in Washington, the healthier, more open and more vibrant the future for Bitcoin will be. As far as self-regulating organizations, in particular, there are a number of them for lots of different industries. I dont know at what point the new one that was just announced today and some of the others in this industry... I dont know how far developed they are... but those could be very important in that education process. I think that to the extent that resources and efforts can be made to develop principles, to develop kind of a guiding post for how this community works, wants to work, should work, thats important. Its important to allay concerns by law enforcement, by regulators, by policy makers. I applaud the folks in the room who are looking into that because I think its a really important step for an industry thats growing. [43:23]

AA: Can I briefly respond to that just a second? [43:26]

Ardon L: Yeah. [43:27]

AA: I think its absolutely important to do the work of education and thats been my main focus for the last two years. I think its also important to highlight the broad diversity of opinion and personalities and look beyond the English speaking white, male world that Bitcoin has been characterized as. We can all respond to sensationalist media stories by setting the record straight, by demanding corrections and retractions, if necessary and providing them the facts. Also, regularly speaking to journalists to help them understand the interior technology of Bitcoin but also, explain the narrative the narrative of a system that can bring hope to millions and billions of people around the world - that narrative rather than the Bitcoin as being a den of thieves, pornographers and terrorists. Its really important to do that but its also important to do it for a perspective thats broader than simply the North American continent. I founded an organization called www.BitcoinPressCenter.org and Im just going to do my little quick pitch here which is a way for people to find journalists who speak 24 different languages, experts from around the Bitcoin community from every other country, except for North America. That site is getting hundreds and hundreds of media requests. I agree with you, absolutely. We need to bring that message and its a message of hope and its an important narrative. Im just saying the delegitimization by media will continue to happen. Its not an accident; its absolutely deliberate. [45:01]

Ardon L: Before you run out of time, I apologise. Does anyone have a question for any of our panellists? [45:08]

AQ: Whats the name of that organization? [45:12]

AA: www.BitcoinPressCenter.org thank you. [45:14]

AQ: Andreas in particular, but all of us here at the conference tend to have a very confrontational stance towards regulation and thats like kind of the way we lean but I think theres another way we could look at this which is how do we co-opt the same organizations that we are actually scared of. A lot of this is coming out of fear and anger. The question is primarily to the people who have a financial background. What are the services... or what are the things that Bitcoin can do for the large financial organizations that are going to make them greedy enough to want to be part of the plate? [46:06]

Ardon L: Also, lets try and keep the answers down to like a sentence or two sentences concise. [46:12]

AE: Ill do my best but I... we dont work together but Id like to pitch what hes doing in a way because... its hard to say but it answers the question perfectly. Ultimately, hes creating a fund, or his company has created a fund that ultimately autoworkers, using their 401(k)s will be able to invest into Bitcoin as part of retirement planning. If in fact, if that investment ends up being more stable than some of the retirement programs that have proved unstable, he could only do that by very much co-opting, I believe, both the regulations and the banking systems that currently are in place. I dont think thats the only thing that could be done with Bitcoin, but I think it compliments, very much so. [47:00]

AA: Campaign finance law, actually being able to donate to political campaigns with bitcoins is going to be a very, very important milestone because then you could co-opt them from the inside. The other one is talking to organizations like the Consumer Financial Protection Board who actually have the best interests of consumers in mind and persuading them why Bitcoin empowers consumers and allows them to protect their assets much more effectively. [47:27]

Ardon L: Also just a comment on that. It would be very interesting to have your political contributions also increase in value 4000% that year because theyll probably be a little more interested in it. [47:39]

AL: First, I wanted to thank everybody for this panel. This was a really interesting panel. My question is very quick. Does China have the right to regulate Bitcoin? [47:47]

AA: I think the beauty of Bitcoin is its regulated by an algorithm and thats owned by no one. Thats the best regulation you can get because its predictable, its consistent and its not subject to corruption and influence. [48:07]

Ardon L: I do think the question though is you can obviously add layers on top of Bitcoin itself. Maybe Izzy, would you have thoughts on what he asked? [48:17]

IK: Id be happy to address that question in a second. Do they have the authority? Well, theyve given themselves the authority because they are a legitimate government and theyre going to do it. I dont know that theres anything that folks can do about it other than pull out of China. Thats an option. In terms of the layers of regulation, I mean, I think we all have talked about this throughout the entire conference. There are kind of three levels of regulation that we should be concerned about here. The first is the straight law enforcement, fraud, illicit activities etc that are done via the Bitcoin community. The second are straight rules of the road for payments, for investors investor protection, for consumer protections etc. The third is something that we havent really touched on too much and thats taxable authority and how the IRS treats large increases in your cash portfolio based on Bitcoin increases. I think that thats a very legitimate concern that a lot of folks are going to start to have as investments in Bitcoin in the US increase. Thats a longer answer than you want but there it is. [49:56]

AQ: I would just like to ask what are some of your favorite Bitcoin charities or services for charities, in general? [50:04]

AA: Thats a great topic because we didnt really touch on transparency. One of the great features is the public ledger and blockchain is that you can enable transparency for charitable organizations. That kind of policy is infectious because it will put pressure on organizations of public responsibility, including public listed companies, to implement radical transparency for their public accounting. I think that would be a very powerful force. [50:30]

AQ: One thing that I havent heard addressed at this conference is the idea that Bitcoin is a huge creator of wealth at the moment. I could see it becoming a destructor of wealth, in terms of just accelerating possible collapse of fiat currencies. Is that not a cause for concern for say, the other six billion, or the person who just doesnt know how to open up a Bitcoin wallet and get in early enough? [50:55]

AE: It was Wayne Gibson who had the great line The future is here, its just not evenly distributed. (Laughter) [51:07]

AA: Nicholas Negroponte of the MIT Media Labs said that, yeah. [51:11]

AE: Who? (Laughter) [51:12]

AA: Nicholas Negroponte said that. [51:13]

AE: Did he? ... thanks. [51:16]

Ardon L: Its a good quote. It remains a good quote. [51:21]

AE: Well, theres no maps for these territories. In any case, no I think to a certain degree, its unavoidable. There has always been disparity of wealth. The question is, is how much can we try to avoid the kinds of disparities we dont like. If, in fact, Bitcoin causes a disparity of wealth that youre talking about, its certainly not going to be straight along traditional lines. If it brings more wealth and capability of ease of financial wellbeing to more people, then OK because it wont be avoidable in any case. [52:03]

AA: Bitcoin is going to get adopted in the places where it has the highest utility versus the local currency and in most places in the world, they have some really, really crappy currencies that are... you know, we think Bitcoin has volatility? Our volatility is going up. Most of these currencies have volatility but its going all the way down. These are problems that are really kind of first world problems, if you like. For many of the nations where Bitcoin may have a tremendous impact, the real question is can we support it without electricity? Can we support it without continuous access to the blockchain? We need to down-tech Bitcoin in order to make it accessible to more and more people but for them, it has an impact and quite honestly, their currencies are really much, much worse. [52:44]

Ardon L: Yeah, especially getting involved internationally with Bitcoin, the more companies that I talk to from different places, one for instance, is the Caribbean. They have the Barbados dollars and its pegged to the dollar and so when we pump money, they have to pump money as well. That money is not backed by anything and actually, they went from a high credit rating to absolutely junk dollars. The exchange there wants to just cyphon the rest of the value out of it. [53:17]

AA: What is our money backed by exactly? (Laughter) [53:20]

Ardon L: The good faith in the American government. [53:25]

AA: So, nothing, right? (Laughter) [53:28]

Ardon L: Were going to finish this with a round of applause for our wonderful panellists. (Applause) [53:37]

_________________________________________

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Rob Benagale CEO of Gliph

The state of Bitcoin mobile applications in the App Store and Google Play.

After seven months of availability, Apple has requested that we remove the ability to send Bitcoin from the Gliph app. We have complied in our most recent release, Gliph for iOS 1.85. This blog entry focuses on the state of Bitcoin apps in the Apple App Store and Google Play and what happened to Bitcoin sending in the Gliph app.

What makes a Bitcoin mobile app? Who in most Bitcoin mobile apps, including Mix, have the following categories? News and information about the Bitcoin ecosystem, e.g. ZeroBlock; market information; exchange; price tickers; currency conversion etc; mobile wallet access, where a wallet is stored on the device and native front-end controls to a cloud-based wallet, e.g. Gliph, Coinbase or Blockchain.infos apps. The most interesting mobile apps for Bitcoin are those that allow you to actually use the currency. Practical use of Bitcoin in mobile apps includes the ability to send and receive Bitcoin with QR codes, written wallet addresses or other means, BTC transfer and the ability to place buy and sell orders for Bitcoin, BTC trading. Why is it important for there to be useful Bitcoin apps? Bitcoin sceptics dont see the proof of work from mining as a good reason for there to be significant value in the currency. Instead, focuses on whether Bitcoin has value because it is a generally accepted form of payment for goods and services. Since Bitcoin is electronic, and many things need to be paid for on the go, the Smartphone is the natural device for use of Bitcoin. This makes use of Bitcoin on a Smartphone an important contributor to sustain value of Bitcoin as a currency. The Android and iOS mobile platforms are the most accessible and pervasive in the world today. It is possible to jailbreak iOS devices and side-load, or route Android devices to run unauthorized apps. However, the vast majority of people have downloaded their apps from the App Store and Google Play. It stands to reason that if either Apple or Google block useful Bitcoin apps from their app marketplaces, they hinder the practical use of the currency and thus, indirectly surpress the value of Bitcoin. [56:56]

Rules on Bitcoin in Google Play and the App Store.

Google and Apple have similar policies with regard to what is allowed in their respective app stores but completely different interpretation and enforcement of those rules. Neither Googles developer contact policy nor Apples App Store review guidelines reference Bitcoin by name. The closest illusion is in Google Plays language about gambling where it reads, We dont allow content or services that facilitate online gambling, including games of skill that offer prizes of cash or other value. The term virtual currency in both Google and Apples rules generally refers to the coins, gold or gems that are used in mobile games, like Clash of Clans. Despite Bitcoins value outside a particular game or platform, the use of virtual currency is not intended to describe Bitcoin, or similar alt currencies, in either Apple or Googles policies. Without a clear rule against Bitcoin in either store, there is a broader rule for which Apple, but not Google, has been citing in its rejection of Bitcoin applications. Neither Google, nor Apple allow apps that contain illegal or unlawful activity. Googles content policy on illegal activities says - Keep it legal: Dont engage in unlawful activities on this product, such as the sale of prescription drugs, without a prescription. Section 22.1 of Apples review guidelines on legal requirements says, Apps must comply with all legal requirements in any location where they are made available to users. It is the developers obligation to understand and conform to all local laws. Given there are no clear rules on Bitcoin in either store, and that regulation of Bitcoin is still in its early stages, lets look at how Google and Apple are currently handling Bitcoin apps. [58:52]

Googles behavior toward Bitcoin apps in Google Play.

Google Play offers a lot of leeway in what can be listed for easy download using the official Google Play app marketplace. Google has banned applications for reasons including, sexually explicit material, copyright infringement and facilitation avoided device warranties, but otherwise uses a fairly hands-off approach to curation of Google Play. Googles terms in the developer program touch on virtual currencies but only within the context of a game and use for buying game content. As far as my research suggests, Google has yet to request the removal of Bitcoin functionality from an app, or removed a Bitcoin app from Google Play. This has resulted in a proliferation of Bitcoin apps on their platform. This Bitcoin Forum thread has a standing list of Bitcoin Android apps and widgets. Google chairman, Eric Schmidt has gone on record saying, Bitcoin is a technological tour de force. What I dont know is, ultimately, whether it is going to be legal. Googles continued allowance of Bitcoin applications in Google Play may suggest the assumption that the company believes it will be legal. [1:00:05]

Apples behavior toward Bitcoin in the App Store.

Developers have been trying to get native applications into the App Store with useful Bitcoin functionality since at least the summer of 2011. However, Apple has been fairly consistent in blocking, or eventually removing apps that feature useful Bitcoin functionality. Apple uses two methods for preventing useful Bitcoin apps from living on iOS devices by process, through (??) review of submitted app, it is rejected and not allowed in the store. By exception, something causes Apple to re-review an application already released in the App Store and potentially remove it from sale. Some examples of Bitcoin apps that have appeared and subsequently removed from the App Store, include Bitcoin Express, a thin wallet that used a server to track and download transactions involving its own wallet to the device, but not full blocks or headers. This app was submitted for approval and rejected. The developer posted the language in the rejection as follows, We found that your app contains content relating to bitcoins, or facilitates, enables or encourages an activity that is not legal in the United States; that is not legal in all our locations in which the app is available; which is not in compliance with the App Store review guidelines. We encourage you to review your app concept and evaluate whether you can incorporate different content and features that are in compliance with the guidelines. To appeal this review, please submit a request to the App Review Board. [1:01:42]

BitPack

A full Bitcoin wallet for iPhone debuted in December of 2011 and was removed from the sale in April of 2012. In a blog entry in Forum post, The Demise of BitPack, developer Rob (??) wrote, About three weeks ago, I received a notification that BitPack, the first Bitcoin wallet for iOS has been removed from the Apple App Store. I had not been given any reason why - just a simple electronic notification that it had been done. I was travelling at the time and did not have time to contact Apple to enquire about this. About a week later, someone from Apple called me on the phone and let me know that BitPack had been removed from the App Store. The guy on the phone sounded like a nervous teenager. I asked him why this had happened and he said because That Bitcoin thing is not legal in all jurisdictions for which BitPack is for sale. I enquired as to which jurisdictions Bitcoin was deemed to be illegal in and he told me - That is up to you to figure out. I asked him which laws Bitcoin violated and again, he replied That is up to you to determine. I told the kid on the phone that he had, in fact, told me nothing and was most unhelpful. [1:02:48]

Blockchain.info

The app for the hybrid web and offline Bitcoin wallet has been rejected multiple times and has fluctuated in availability of useful Bitcoin features. One rejection note from Apple was posted by Blockchain.info founder, Ben Reeves. We found that your app contains content, or facilitates, enables or encourages an activity that is not legal in all locations in which the app is available; which is not in compliance with the App Store review guidelines. Specifically, the facilitation of trading of virtual currency is not appropriate for the App Store. We encourage you to review your app concept and evaluate whether you can incorporate different content and features that are in compliance with the guidelines. If you wish to appeal your review, you can submit a request to the App Review Board. The App Review Board was created for developers to appeal an app review they have concerns with. Please be as specific as possible as to, when youre explaining, why you believe your app is in compliance with App Store review guidelines. [1:03:45]

Coinbase

Coinbase has had two different iOS applications available on the App Store. Both have, at one time, had useful Bitcoin features, only to have them ultimately pulled from the Store. But XYZ app, with useful Bitcoin features, is still in the App Store. How come? You may be aware of one, or more apps in the App Store that still offer useful Bitcoin functionality. Why are those still available? While we still have our own guesses, we believe it is in the best interest of the Bitcoin community to avoid naming the remaining useful Bitcoin apps and speculating publicly on why these apps remain in the Store. Given Apples prior behavior, it is most likely a matter of time before they are removed. [1:04:24]

Introduction to Gliph and its Bitcoin Capability

If youre just tuning in, Gliph is an app for iPhone, Android and the web that lets you connect and communicate with people privately. Our goal with Gliph is to make peer to peer transactions, like the ones you do on Craigslist, easier and more fun. This past spring, we embraced Bitcoin and built the ability to attach a Bitcoin wallet to your Gliph account. This meant you effortlessly send Bitcoin to other Gliph users. We did this because we believe Bitcoin will be a currency of choice for the future of peer to peer transactions. We released the Bitcoin functionality at Bitcoin 2013, and you can check demo video showing off the first version of Gliph on iOS with Bitcoin. At launch, we had also made these features available in Gliphs Android and web applications. We relocated the company from Portland, Oregan to incubate Gliph in Boost VC Startup Accelerator, this summer. You can learn about our experience on Episode 47 of Adam Levines Lets Talk Bitcoin podcast. [1:05:17]

Gliphs Bitcoin Releases on iOS.

Gliph is unique in that it integrates with multiple cloud-based Bitcoin wallet providers, rather than hosting wallets for users directly. This setup offers both user experience and business benefits. People on Gliph dont need to know which Bitcoin wallet provider the other person is using, or handle wallet addresses, they just choose the amount and hit send. Gliph can focus on innovative user experiences, rather than the technical and potential regulatory requirements of Bitcoin wallet hosting. Over three months at Boost VC, we did eight iterative releases of Gliph on iOS that focused on enhancing its Bitcoin functionality. These changes included: refinements of the Bitcoin wallet experience, instant Bitcoin wallet creation, support both for the Blockchain.info and now defunct BIPS web wallets. With each release, we took care to be transparent about the useful Bitcoin functionality in the app. In fact, we believe that part of the reason Gliph was allowed in the App Store was because the app was clear in the description, update text and screenshots about its capability. [1:06:22]

Getting Rejected from the App Store.

Bolstered, in part, by the appearance of two applications offering useful Bitcoin functionality in the App Store, we submitted Version 1.85 of the Gliph app. This version included the ability to scan QR codes, making Gliph an easy way to pay at online checkout and at point of sale, using QR codes from merchant solution providers, like BitPay. The Gliph app was held in review longer than expected, then we received a note saying the app needed additional review. A few days later, we received a phone call from Apple Worldwide Developer Relations, personally telling us that what we had added, in Version 1.85, was not going to be allowed. In addition, they notified us that we needed to resubmit an update to our prior Version 1.8 by December 3rd, or risk having the app removed from the Store. We were told we had an opportunity to appeal the decision but that it would likely end up in the exact same place, though they indicated that Apple had changed rules in the previous year, specifically in response to feedback from appeal letters. So, we took the time to carefully explain what Gliph does, why we did not think it should be rejected or changed and offered feedback to Apple on how it should handle Bitcoin. We drew particular attention to the fact that Gliph does not technically send or receive Bitcoin, but instead issues requests to web wallets for these operations on behalf of the user. While waiting for a response to our appeal, our app was unexpectedly removed from the sale on the morning of December 2nd. This was despite clear communication that we would have until 3rd to submit an update. We received a phone call on the afternoon of 3rd, saying our appeal was denied. Asked why the app had been removed earlier than discussed, we were given a vague answer. I felt like the representative did not understand the difference between trading and transferring Bitcoin. These are significantly different things, especially with regard to potential future regulation. Yet, when you are a startup and independent software developer, you dont really have much leverage with Apple and how it handles the App Store. The best you can do is say Everyone makes mistakes, offer to resubmit the app immediately and hope they change their mind on the matter. To that end, weve decided to share our appeal letter to Apple and why it should allow apps with useful Bitcoin functionality in the App Store. You can download a copy on our website. [1:08:29]

Is Apple Anti-Bitcoin?

Why? There is a prevailing belief in the Bitcoin community that Apple is against Bitcoin. Well, no one from Apple has gone on record to comment on the technology as a whole. We have plenty of evidence Apple is currently against offering useful Bitcoin apps to its customers. But why? Notable Bitcoin contributor, John Matonis, postulated this past June that Apple is suppressing Bitcoin apps to defend its entrance into the mobile payments. Thats an interesting idea but it relies on the fact that Apple actually began seeing Bitcoin as a serious threat to corporate strategy as early as two and a half years ago. If you are to believe Apples repeated rejection criteria of Section 22.1, you could take a view that the company currently believes the currency will ultimately be made illegal in the United States, or other important markets. Rather than be forced to remove apps, once theoretical regulation comes into play, Apple is simply not allowing them to exist in the first place. This might sync up with Eric Schmidts comment on Bitcoin which was that he doesnt know if it will become a legal thing. If this is the most fundamental reason for allowing or disallowing Bitcoin apps in either store, it suggests an interesting perspective. Google allows useful Bitcoin apps because it optimistically believes the currency will become legal. Apple doesnt allow them because it pessimistically does not. Among other possible reasons, we wonder if Apple simply doesnt want to police useful Bitcoin apps in the App Store because they perceive the legal ambiguity of the currency as more trouble than its worth. Bitcoin is still in an early adopter phase and probably the majority of Apples customers are unaware the currency exists and are not looking for these types of apps anyway. Better to avoid this type of software for now and take the option to change their mind in the future. [1:10:19]

What Now for Gliphs Bitcoin Ability?

The native Gliph iOS app doesnt have the attach coins option in the conversation menu anymore but it does let you create or connect an existing Bitcoin wallet and you can view the balance. When you want to send bitcoin, youll need to jump to mobile Safari and use Gliphs mobile web application. While this is a solid work around, we believe this reduces the quality of the user experience in the Gliph iOS app with regard to Bitcoin. Since heavy Bitcoin users with iOS devices will jump through these hoops, it simply hurts the otherwise seemless experience of using Bitcoin on Gliph with an Apple product. We continue to believe that there is immense opportunity in improving the peer to peer transaction experience and that Bitcoin will be an important part of this. You can expect Bitcoin to be an important aspect of the Gliph platform with or without the express approval of Apple and the App Store. [1:11:12]

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CREDITS:

AL: Thanks for listening to Episode 75 of Lets Talk Bitcoin.

Apple and Bitcoin was written, read and recorded by Rob Banagale, edited by Adam B. Levine Thanks to Mediabistro for putting on the Inside Bitcoins conference. The panel was recorded live at the event by the Coinsider This! Podcast at www.coinsiderthis.com. The panel featured Andreas M. Antonopoulos, Eric Benz, Robert Cho, Adam Ettinger, Izzy Klein and Ardon Lukasiewicz Music was provided by Jared Rubens, Calvin Henderson and Matthew Murkowski

Questions or comments? Email adam@letstalkbitcoin.com

Have a good one! [1:11:46]