let's talk bitcoin ep 101 - the why of bitcoin

8/12/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin Ep 101 - The Why of Bitcoin

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LETS TALK BITCOIN

Episode 101The Why of Bitcoin

Participants:

Adam B. Levine (ABL)Host

Andreas Antonopoulos (AA)

Chris Ellis (CE)

[ABL]: Today is April 15th, 2014 and this is Episode 101.

This program is intended for informational and educational purposes only. Cryptocurrency

is a new field of study. Consult your local futurist, lawyer, and investment advisor before

making any decisions whatsoever for yourself.

Welcome to Lets Talk Bitcoin, a twice-weekly show about the ideas, people, and projects

building the digital economy and the future of money. [0:31]

My name is Adam B. Levine and today, were going to try something a little different.

Andreas Antonopoulos is joined by Chris Ellis in LTB 101 for todays discussion on Bitcoinphilosophy. While you dont have to take notes, there will be a quiz. Enjoy the show. [0:46]

[AA]: Hi, this is Andreas Antonopoulos of Lets Talk Bitcoin. Today, I have Chris Ellis of

Feathercoin on the show and well be talking about Bitcoin and philosophy. Chris, welcome

to the show. [1:00]

[CE]: Thanks very much for having me. [1:04]

[AA]: I really enjoyed our discussion the other day I wanted to expand on it a little bit. As

you know, part of my heritage is Greek that doesnt give me any particular insight intoGreek philosophy but I certainly understand some of the motivations behind the Greek

philosophy because it is so embedded in our great culture. I really enjoyed hearing you talk

about philosophyI think we share a common understanding of a need for forming a

narrative and creating the right circumstances around Bitcoin. Before we get to that, lets

take a step back why philosophy and Bitcoin? [1:42]


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[CE]: Well, there is no understanding Bitcoin without the philosophy. We should probably

start off with why philosophy? And this is the question a lot of people get. philosophy is

and I might get into a lot of trouble for saying this because anyone who tries to define it

usually does its the what is (???). It questions previous assumptions, and things we

thought we knew to be true. Its actually more a way of being, it gives us a way of dealing

with the unknown, the unknowable. What it does is builds a self-knowledge. How do Iunderstand myself in relations to the environment? If I understand myself, then it really

doesnt matter where I am or when I amthen I will have the framework I need, a

template and a set of tools, with critical thinking and so on, about how to deal with it.

About how I can learn. If I dontknow anything about my environment, and I dont know

anything about myself, thats usually not good news. [2:39]

[AA]: Its about learningmore so than about having knowledge its about the process

of acquiring knowledge and relating to the environment. [2:47]

[CE]: Youve got ityouve got it. If we want to be very particular, we can say its abouttaking data, turning it into information, turning information into knowledge, and then

turning that knowledge into self-knowledge, wisdom. Philolove and sophia, wisdom.

You have the love of wisdom. Its a movement. Its a moving. [3:04]

Saying you are going to philosophize I make no claims about being a philosopher. I am

very insecure about my knowledge. I describe myself as a thinker. I like talking to people

about ethical issues, about hard issues. About issues they probably only think about when

theyre on a train, looking out the window, but not the kind of things they would ever think

about at work. Im thinking about things with no expectation of return. Im notthinking

about what Im going to get out of this. Because ultimately, thinking results in failure. Therisk youre takingwith philosophy, is you dont know whatitsgoing to produce. You dont

know what the outcome is going to be. Sometimes the thought will just stop very abruptly

and will make you feel very silly, particularly if youre giving a voice to other people.

Sometimes, it will keep going on and on and on. The thought will take you to all kinds of

places and you will run out of energy. [3:54]

[AA]: Thinking itself is modelling the world. In doing so, you are taking something that has

infinite complexity and infinite depth and trying to map it into a finite model that can fit

inside your head and thinking patterns. By its very definition, this is a (???) process. When

you take, say, three dimensions and you map them to two, you lose something in theprocess. By the very definition, if you try to create an abstract model of the world, you have

to remove most of it, in order to understand it, even a tiny bit. I find it funny you say, youre

insecure about calling yourself a philosopher because thats absolutely very characteristic of

people who are thinkers is they are unsure. Certainty comes mostly from ignorance, I

would say, rather than from knowledge. Knowledge makes you extremely insecure because

the more you learn, the more you know you dont know. [4:55]


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[CE]:Thats right. Absolutely. Its actuallyquite like being an athlete, in a way. Its like

saying youre going to do athletics education of the body thatshow I am

understanding it. What kind of athlete? You could be a runner, you could be a rower, you

could be a swimmer. You can get your philosophy from literature, from art, from film

pretty much anywhere you can get it from idle talk every day, water-cooler type

conversations. The problem is, itskind of impoverished when you take it down to thelevel of what Heidegger will call the inauthenticmode. This is existentialism. You kind of

go around your life, youre not really thinking about what youredoing, yourejust kind of

getting on with the (???) state. Itsall about the theystate what did theysay on the

news. You reduce everything to this kind of average everyday-ness. You still get that little

voice in your head that says, You are wasting your life. You are wasting your life, you

know. Its there and its calling you. You are completely blind to it and you just get washed

away by the general consensus, by just the will - the general will. [5:57]

I feel it is apt to say because I havent really said this beforeany of the times we met before

on the Bitcoin Group I am heavily influenced by people like Robert Harrison at KZSUStanford professor, hugely influential Corey Anton, and the guys that partially examine life,

as well. When I talk, I want to put that in there, so anyone listening to me if they want to

learn more they want to see where my thoughts have come from, those three places, in

particular, have been very, very influential to me. [6:26]

[AA]: There is something about being able to go out there and talk with people about things

that really matter and have meaningful conversations that I find tremendously rewarding. I

think thats whereknowledge comes from. It comes from testing your assumptions and

asking tough questions and being asked tough questions. I find one of the most rewarding

parts of my job in Bitcoin is the ability to meet with members of the community on a veryregular basis and get essentially a free ride along with their community and learn from what

theyre doing in Bitcoin. Through that process I can develop all of the ideas and that I then

take public and talk about through the various shows that I do. But really, its not about me

coming up with ideas alone in a room its about having conversations every single day.

These conversations yank me out of any possibility of getting lost in the mundane because

my thinking is challenged every single day that way. [7:27]

[CE]:You are absolutely right. What I say to people is if you are smarter than most of

your friends, youve got the wrong friends. You need to move into new circles and people

who can test you. Not test you so much you end up feeling terrible about yourself. Notsaying you should join CERN or something, if youre not good enough atphysics. Definitely

subject yourself to critical thinkers who can challenge you in new ways. [7:50]

[AA]: Theres a whole world out there and itsfull of conventional wisdom. Full of ideas we

take for granted. If you peek, just below the surface, most of the most commonly held

beliefs in our world are fundamentally untrue. Thatswhat really fascinates me things

that the vast majority of people believe in are probably the least true things out there.

[8:18]


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[CE]:Because we only get to truth through time. So for example, lets take notion of a king,

a sovereign. A king, actually, at the beginning of a reign, is a rebel. He starts life as a

usurper, but ends life as a kind of overweight, obese, luxuriating in all his glory. The throne

gets too comfortable and he doesnt want to lose his power anymore. So then, you need to

have a new king. From our perspective, looking back, it looks like a king is just incumbent,

acts like this is normal. Why challenge it? [8:54]

Now we are starting to see with the introduction of coin I dont know about you, but I

heard you say, when you first read the paper, you couldnt eat, you couldnt sleep I had

exactly the same reaction. I still dont eat once or twice a day because eating interrupts my

thinkingI want to keep thinking, so I dont eat, I just drink coffee, and just read and read

and read. [9:17]

This whole community really is (???) bitcoin community, okay? It divides the curious from

the non-curious. They are both running around and learning about this interesting new

phenomenon then there are people that are just staring at two dimensional shadows onthe wall, claiming knowledge about the three dimensional objects they are meant to

represent. You cantunderstand the complexity and the richness as you alluded to

earlier of a three-dimensional object by staring at price, for example. Thats the common

one. Itsnot to say that price doesnt matter itsstill one aspect just not the most

important one. [10:01]

It falls into a myriad it makes up just one part of a very complex picture. I quite like it

the whole community brings me together with people I wouldnt have met otherwise. Had

Bitcoin not existed, I wouldnt have metall great people Ive come across. Ive seenyou,

this show itsbeen great because I regularly go and contact people that have appearedon this show or look into their work. Somebody, the other day at CoinFest in Vancouver,

crypto (???)[INAUDIBLE], started up this amazing project to take the proceeds of bitcoin

mining and various cryptocurrency mining and give it to children disadvantaged

children at risk to help pay for scholarships. This is fantastic! These self-proclaimed

experts talk about the bubble, [INAUDIBLE] is a bunch of non sequiturs its not that youre

wrong, its justyoure missing the point. Youre not right, either. Youreapproaching this

new object and saying, Ialready know what it is. I expect it to come ready-made, as well.

Thats the other thing, there is a real kind of laziness to the thinking. It should just have

everything, built-in, straight away, for me, ready to go. [11:24]

But then, other people are more generous. They come to it, and say, Isnt that interesting?

I wonder what I can learn about this? I wonder what the possibilities are for this? What

could this do for people? What do you mean I can transmit economic value to the world

at a distance, at near instantaneous speed, at no cost? It just mind boggles. At least it

helps us to identify the good from the bad. Thats what money is. Money brings together

the honest, dishonest, the criminals, the police it brings together everybody in a place.

You dont leave until you know why. I think the people approaching this new way of being, I

would say, its a new way of acting, because itsnot just about the money, itsalso about the

work we should investigate a bit. When people say intrinsic value, theyrereally saying I

dont find what supports commodity to be valuable to me. Itsnot important to me thatsa better way of saying it. Itsnot important to me. [12:32]


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[AA]: Itsfundamentally misunderstanding, the thing for the symbol. Which is an ancient

philosophical question. Intrinsic value assumes that there is a thing behind the symbol.

Money, in itself, is really, notjust a symbol, its a language. A language for communicating

value between people. Money is not just symbolic in the very basic sense, its a full

symbology of value, and itsused to communicate value in an abstract language, for whichthere is no thing behind it. The effort to find the intrinsic value, is almost like the effort to

find the platonic idealshape that exists to give the abstraction reality. The abstraction

only works if there is something behind it to give it value. We know that is not the case. We

know through repeated application and through history, that symbols and languages

emerge, and they serve purposes regardless of intrinsic value. Intrinsic value, in itself, is

almost an oxymoron. Because value is an assigned abstraction and therefore cannot be

intrinsic. Value is assigned on a context-by-context basis, on moment-by-moment basis.

[14:02]

Here in the US, we take even simple things, that should have intrinsic valuewater, which islife giving. And you live in a society where water is mostly abundant, you put it in a

fountain, and you throw money in it. Someone tweeted this photo of an African child,

looking up at a western journalist, and the caption was, So, what youretrying to tell me is

you pee in a bowl of clean water? Thats unthinkable because there is no clean water in

many places in the world. But what is the intrinsic value of water? The intrinsic value of

water is infinite when you are thirsty, and almost zero, when yourenot, when its

abundant. Which means itsnot intrinsic. Itssomething thats assigned to us purely based

on the context based on how scarce it is, based on our needs, based on our environment,

based on our future expectations of its availability. [15:15]

I got into deep trouble over saying that even food and water doesnt have intrinsic value

if it is abundant. If it is abundant, and that is the key phrase, of course there. Even that

probably that has the most intrinsic value because it is life sustaining. Even that has very

little intrinsic value, not zero, but almost no value when it is abundant. [15:41]

All of these concepts of intrinsic value represent fundamental misunderstanding of money.

That is what I find fascinating is when you talk to people about bitcoin, you quickly realize at

least, like me, they really didnt understand money until they started asking the tough

questions. [16:02]

One of the things Bitcoin is doing is starting or cryptocurrencies in general is starting a

conversation about what is money. Forcing us to skip the easy questions, or rather, skip the

easy answers. It forces us to skip the easy answers because it violates the easy answers.

We find the easy answers themselves was the mirage. What is money? Something that has

intrinsic value well, not really. Something that can be used to exchange value not

always. All the easy answers go out the window. And you are forced to confront the fact

that money is, in fact, a cultural phenomenon, a language, an abstraction much, much

more complex than we realize. Itsnot just pieces of green fabric with lots of germs on

them that people exchange as if they mean something. [17:03]


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[CE]: Intrinsic value is there because everyone agrees itsthere. Its aconsensus. It is, you

are absolutely right, everything you say, is absolutely right. I think what people are longing

for is a permanent store of value. The problem is that time is always going to humiliate us.

Its always going to come up with something new, something unanticipatable. Its going to

show us its forces, itsgoing to say, This was never valuable, did you not realize? I thinkwere the ones putting the value in there, are we not? [17:40]

[AA]: Yes, if anything, the one true thing in the universe is entropy. A permanent store of

value would be a non-entropic object an object that is not affected by entropy that lives

outside of space and time. An object that cannot be corrupted. Platonic ideal. Thats really

what were looking at. Again, if only you had this perfect object that was incorruptible, that

was never depleting, that was always useful in a way it never changed in its usefulness.

Then that would have intrinsic value. That assumes a world that doesntexist, the world

that doesnt have change. Change is theonly thing that exists. [18:27]

[CE]: Thats rightchange and also, the rate of change. One of the things thats different

now, any other point in history, is we have such a big picture. We can see further back into

time and space. We have what sociologists call ambient sociality. The whole world is

distanced to me. Im so close, yet so far away from other people in the world. What it does

is makes us responsible. It makes us responsible because now we have the ability to

respond. I can now do something to help that person that was a victim of that tsunami.

There is no excuse Im running out of excuses. Even to myself, even if there is nobody

there to witness me watching the story unfold on the news, which Im getting in real time,

from many angles. Im having all kinds of experts, on meteorology tell me all about these

kind of weather patterns and the impact they can have. Even if there is nobody to see, Im

still ashamed, if I dont send the money. Like a miniature version of society in my head that

says, Do this. Do you really need that money? The demand formoney is sky high right

now. [19:46]

Another way of thinking about money is liquid, like a kind of water it can move but it

can also freeze. People, I think, that just want money for the sake of wanting money

are just waiting to be born. Its the sum total mass of all of your prior economic energy

comes together, manifests as one block, one entity in your world you can then distribute.

The word currency, I think John Locke applied it, as he applied it was currents, not just a

flow but also means (???) to the present. Money also gives you an extension rather

than hankering off for more and more and more of it you should actually think about

what you should do with it now. What is your net present value? [20:37]


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Weve said this before when weve spoken and maybe we should say this again the

reason we got into this financial mess in the first place is because the people got lazy. They

outsourced wealth management to a bunch of people who then ended up owning an

industry that had huge net present value. They had the money now. Thats all that really

mattered so, they formed gambling addictions, and started taking all these crazy bets, andmeanwhile, people let them. We see thenumbers on the screen. This time those shadows

dont really represent whats behind there theyre just pixels. They tell you, You have

8,000 in your bank. But do you? No, because if everybody turned up tomorrow and tried

to claim it, that money wouldnt be there. [21:23]

[Music][21:30]

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[AA]: Money as a language, is really about time shifting value and resources. It allows you

to bring value from the future into the present and to take value from the past and extend it

to the future. It really is a temporal conversation a time shifting of value and resources.

But it also allows us to do space shifting. Now, Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies allow us to do

both with much greater liquidity and velocity than ever before. That, in itself, challenges

the assumptions. [23:08]

If you think about it, we are used to money being liquid but were also used to money

having a certain amount of viscosity. In fact, we depend on this viscosity in order to make

sense of our world. If money is, in fact, instantly transferrable anywhere in the world

that violates a lot of the safety guards it violates a lot of the assumptions we have about

how money works, because zero friction money doesnt make sense to us. We are used to

money that has viscosity and friction built in and, in fact, we depend on that viscosity to

achieve certain results, to achieve certain goals. [23:55]


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The viscosity itself becomes part of the operating process of money, and it provides a

security by delaying the time distribution of money. You can stop a check for five days

because of viscosity. That allows you to take more risk in the present with that check then

you would otherwise. Because the viscosity of the money allows you to have the cash.

[24:21]

[CE]: Thats interesting. Now Im thinking of latency. There are different kinds of viscosity,

thats a great word to use. There is sometimes a [INAUDIBLE] imposedviscosity. I might

choose to save money, in fact, I am a bit of a hoarder, truth be known. Its because I want

freedom, I want the freedom to think. I cant think if I am worried about things. So, I save

my money because I need a safety net a comfort zone where I feel I can exist and be

who I am. [24:54]

That also has hindered me I dont have a car, I live actually a very austere existence. But I

like this way because now I get [INAUDIBLE]. But for somebody else, that maybe

completely different is there anything interesting to say about the human imposed

latency and then the inefficiencies, in for example, the banking network? Where a check

gets held up, for example. There is this phenomenon in finance, they take the money and

they hold your check for three days and then they go and gamble it on the FOREX, the

largest trading market in the world. [25:35]

[AA]: Thats part of the thing itsreally about turning bugs into features. And you see this

happen again and again. The idea that you take something that is a delay imposed by the

medium, by the viscosity of the system and you use that as feature, as a security control.You try to exploit the viscosity, to use it to protect yourself against sudden and

unanticipated moves. And then you essentially outsource your security to the viscosity and

that makes the viscosity greater. It also allows people to take advantage of the differences

in the flow of money, or in the viscosity of money in the form of arbitrage. [26:19]

Ill give you another example in the last decade, weve seen an explosion in supply chain

integration. Supply chain integration, meaning in the past, if you wanted to order 10,000 jet

fan widgets from Boeing, you would have to do months of negotiating contracts. Today, in

many systems, these are completely integrated based on Enterprise Resource Planning, ERPsystems, whereby you can put in a purchase order, and you can ask for 1,000 jet fan

widgets and literally, within 10 or 15 minutes, boxes of jet fan widgets are getting loaded

onto a truck, somewhere in a warehouse and getting shipped to you. [27:14]

In the past, this process by taking months could be controlled, so the viscosity of that

process actually gave some advantages, it gave you opportunities for operational security.

Three or four people had to touch it each of those people could interject their own

judgment, they could notice that something was wrong, they could put a hold on it, they

could delay it, and they could reverse it. [27:38]


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We took advantage of the viscosity to introduce these controls. Now, there are no controls.

Now imagine, for example, you are running a system not properly secured. A hacker gets in,

and they start ordering 100,000 widgets from every single one of your suppliers. Fifteen

minutes later, trucks are rolling, it doesnt matter if you intended these orders or not. All

that matters is whether you have the credit to support them. It doesnt matter theseactually do arrive at your factory, you cant do anything with them and youregoing to make

a substantial loss. Because ten minutes after this order went through, or someone mistyped

and instead of a 1,000 widgets, they ordered a 1,000,000 widgets because they didnt

realize the unit number was a power to the thousand and not a single unit. Suddenly,

youve gota million widget, but ten minutes later, these are rolling in a truck. [28:36]

There goes the viscosity as a feature. Because we worked on it as bug and taken it out of

the system, automated everything now, we have to reintroduce controls. We have to put

separation of duties, multiple authorizations, human authorizations, but also automaticsystems like algorithms to check and see: is this an order of magnitude greater than any

order youve ever placed before? Maybe pop up a warning: are you sure you want a million

widgets? Because youve never ordered a million widgets before. [29:07]

So we have gone from bug, to feature, to bug again. And with money, itsthe same thing.

Viscosity of money was a bug, we made it faster, and faster, and faster. But at the same

time, people come to rely on the viscosity as a security mechanism, are afraid of losing that,

and the multiple layers of recourse that offers, and have not yet developed new

mechanisms like, for example, in cryptocurrencies multi-signature, pick your own

counterparty for escrow and validation. New ways of doing it that do not require viscosity

that can operate at that speed but are just as secure or even more secure. [29:48]

We are in limbo at the moment. Weve taken away the viscosity but we havent actually yet

built the mechanisms to protect people [29:57]

[CE]: But we have to codify it. We have to ask the what is it question. We have to say,

What does it mean transmit value across the world? One of the things youve drawn

our attention to is, my ability to execute at range. My ability to execute my intentions at

range. [INAUDIBLE] When I want to move something, I physically have to be near to it, Ihave to be sufficiently strong enough where I have to collaborate with others such that we

could move it together. Now, if I want to move some copper from Ghana and some plastic

from Taiwan, to China and fly it here to London, all I have to do is buy an iPhone and with

one click on Amazon, and suddenly, Ive set about a chain reaction. Of course, itsnot just

me, because that infrastructure wouldnt have existed if I didnt have a shared interest,

maybe we should talk about my nieces, as well. Memetics. I want something because you

want something. [30:47]


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That then manifests to bring about a world where we are all engaged in this activity of

constant movement. And yes, it makes sense to us because were embedded inside the

thing itself but when you talk about viscosity, I start thinking of music. I start thinking of

cadences. Why do certain things get clogged up because its also an opportunity for fraud,

too? When you get inefficiencies in the system, it provides an incentive for somebody,somewhere to take advantage of that inefficiency in the system. Lets face it it can either

help or hinder, can either be moved by fear or be moved by want of a better word, love. Im

meaning that in a very general way. There are really basic motions can really move us and

one is fear, the other is love. And they either just want to help or they want to hurt. And

thats how I feel about the modern banking system. These people are cozy and they seek to

make a profit from the inefficiencies, that music I was talking about, in our society. I think

they dont know how to ask for help. [32:08]

One of the things we have to be careful with frauds is what they steal from us is actually ourtime and what they punish is the hopeful. Look it right now what is happening with MTGox

you have a microcosm of the macrocosm, a mirror image, a recursive image of what is

going on out there in the world at large happening within the Bitcoin sphere on a miniature

scale. Where we have a CEO at is prevaricating yes, he is using the truth to hurt people

because he hasnt lied. If you look at the press releases very carefully, they are very well

worded. He is very careful not to lie. In doing so, he keeps you up all night waiting for the

news. He always releases at the very, very last minute. There is little to no evidence there

is anyone else is working for this company, other than this guy. [33:11]

The victims in all this, the customers, are clinging on to hope. They want to believe

everything is going to be OK, that theyregonna get their money out. Ultimately, the theft is

still happening. I dont know if the coins are there, I dont know any more than anybody

else, but in my opinion, the theft is taking place right beneath your eyes as you allow

yourself to be concerned. [33:35]

Frauds take away is our attention. Thats what fuels them. They also dont know how to

help when they move, nothing comes of the movement. Theyre stuckin negative cycles

of behavior. There is no hope for them they have the desire they dont have the hope

to move out of it. I do that because a lot of people ask the question, What is philosophy

good for? The thing is youve got to know when to stopthe thought. Youve got to know

when to say, OK, lets step back and what does this mean?[34:16]


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What this means is, if you work in a bank or you work for a government organization, you

need to start asking your boss some hard questions. You need to start managing upwards.

And if you dont like the answers, and if you feel like your time is being wasted, if you feel

like the practical decisions you are being forced to make on a day to day basis are not

helpful to society as a whole, to the world as a whole, to other people you need to get upand turn around and walk out the door, preferably with no explanation whatsoever.

Because the more time you sit there, the more you are facilitating them. You are actually

fueling it. When you are doing is yourepunishing the innocent. [34:55]

Ayn Rand has a quoteIm not a big fan of Ayn Rand, by the way in case anyone wonders,

she did have a great quote where she said, When you pity the frauds, what you end up

doing is punishing the innocent. When you punish the innocent, you (???) out a condition

that necessitates communication and collaboration. The reason, at the moment the

elites, world power, megabanks the reason theyrein control is they can collaboratebetter than the people on the ground. Information in their systems travels much more

efficiently, people understand each other because their brought together by the greed

motive. This constant need to hoard. Pathological desire to have more and more of

something. [35:50]

I feel like we need to stop (???) the banks and just start looking at ourselves and our role in

it. What can I do now? Never mind what has happened. There will be plenty of time later,

once we set up our new paradigm to look back and historians can go through the

correspondence and work out who did and when. For now, the only question that really

matters is what youre going to do about it. And that is what, I think, we can take away

from these observations. [36:25]

[Music][36:41]

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[AA]:Its hard to see the truth of your actions when your salary depends on not seeing

them. When the consequences of those actions are so far removed from the moment of

decision. Ive been there, and its not an easy place to be because it doesnt happen

suddenly, it happens very, very slowly. You start off working in an environments that you

find hopeful and positive, then gradually the priority shifts from behind you. Gradually,

you become more and more aware of the practical and the real vs. The story and the myth

or the promise. And then as you do so, the cognitive dissonance increases and it manifests.

It manifests with sadness, it manifests with depression, it manifests with anxiety, and then

at some point sure, absolutely, escapism. All forms of escapism, whether through

substances, through trying not to think, through sports, through TV, through whenever.

And then at some point, the cognitive dissonance becomes either overwhelming or you find

a way to maintain permanent escape through numbing yourself to everything. I dont think

this sustainable. [39:28]

[CE]: Its hard work being in denial? [39:33]

[AA]: Its very hard workto operate in an environment at some level you know is in

complete contradiction with your principles. Where your idea of yourself as a good person

is being challenged every single day by the glimpses you get of the consequences of your

actions until one day you cant sustain it anymore. In my case, I had a brilliant moment

where I was asked to censor my public speech in order to get a contract. And at that

moment, it all kind of crystallized, then I realized through repeated compromises I had

myself feeding the very beast I couldnt support in principle. And I had to do a dramatic

change in my priorities and actions. Its very difficult, even for people who are aware, and

most people have other things to do and then I think about these things they havepractical matters... [40:41]

[CE]: Well, they think they do [40:42]

[AA]: Well, they think they do yes, its very easy to get distracted by the minutia of life

on a daily basis and not pay attention to where youre goingand then 10 years have

passed[40:56]
http://www.bitgivefoundation.org/http://www.bitgivefoundation.org/http://www.bitgivefoundation.org/http://www.bitgivefoundation.org/


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[CE]: Thats a very good way of putting it. Yeah,I wanted to saydenial is an ignorance.

Its knowing what the truth is and actually choosing not to see it. Youre absolutely right,

that we are almost numbed, particularly by the major economic calamities of late. Birth

begins with negation. It begins with the prosecution of the past and a hope of what could

be, of what could come out of it. A hope past would be remembered differently, I think.The past hasnt finished happening in a sense. We always have time to re-contextualize and

re-understand it in new ways. It wasnt eventhat we should go over little bit, about what

this fundamentally is it is a global dialogue with the memory. It is a (???) self-stabilized

consensus and its back ultimately if you are looking for any kind of backing or intrinsic

value if you must its backed against best understanding we have of the laws of

physics. We wouldnt have computers at all, if it werent forthe concept revolution around

the 1920s. Physics is about asking questions about strange phenomenon in our world. Its

about building patents that allow us to be able to circumnavigate our world without falling

over, without becoming disorientated because it built rules. It saysI can make aprediction that is determinist if I put this input in, Im going toget this output. Then, of

course, we have to move up to the software layer. The software layer has to touch down on

the physics at some point. And then you have to come up with some ifstatements and

you have to come up with some conditions. Say, If this, then this. And thatswhat we

were just saying, I think, when we talked about viscosity of money, a flow of capital.

Because itsnot just money, its also capital and the flow things inour world. At some point,

it has to meet I think where a lot of people searching for intrinsic value get stuck is

they fail to see they dont get as far aspage three of the Bitcoin paper for a start, which is

where the magic starts this is where he talks the applicationI dont have it in front of

me, I didnt come that wellprepared he starts to talk about the application of proof-of-

work. And he brings together the physics and the mind. He brings together the needs of

the mind this need for possibilities in the futurethe need for freedom. Emancipation,

like freedom of movement type freedom. And he does it by suggesting the idea and hes

quite tentative about it. Satoshi Nakamoto is quite tentative he doesnt want to say for

sure, that rewarding somebody with a token on top of the network, called a Bitcoinwill

ensure the actors will behave in an honest way. Because you could either defraud the

network or you can behave honestly and apply more power to support the robustness of

the network and arrange for the reward than for you to, for example, tell your life story on

the network [INAUDIBLE] 51% or compromise in another way. He is not entirely sure if you

look at the language very closely, he says it ought to. He is quiteequivocal he wants to

leave himself some room later on maybe we shouldnt take the hashrate for granted

but for now, this is a good enough model. And what this is truth is repetition. Or at least,

truth is as good as you going to get, its repetition.[44:45]


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[AA]: So lets talk a little bit about the truth behind this because another, I think, very

interesting thing about Bitcoin. When you first look at Bitcoin its currencies, its money, its

digital money that really misses the point. Then youve got a network and the

implementation which is essentially a piece of software. Behind that you have a community

of people. But underlying all of this, is the blockchain. The blockchain technology. As atechnology itsmore useful to think of it the blockchain as a design pattern. Its a new

design pattern for distributed systems. Its a design pattern that takes a traditional model of

patterns, concentric circles around a route of trust and authority, with increasing axis

control as you go out. And motes or walls, set around the central authority and inverts it

completely. It actually makes the authority reside at the edges of the network through this

process of collaboration. It makes that authority cumulative. But the more people that

participate, authority is achieved at ever higher rates with every passing block, with every

increase in the hashing power, with every increase in the constituents of users. Network

effect creates authority and trust and highly diffused distributed manner, which also makesit difficult to exploit because theres no single thingyou can take down. This narrative is

very difficult for people to understand primarily because authority has never been diffused.

Authority has always been centralized in most systems. It is a model that has worked very

well, but is a model that is rooted in physical power, in force. It is the outcome of the

centralization of physical power. [46:51]

In decentralized systems, like Bitcoin, you invert that trust model and where, previously you

had to trust everyone who had access and therefore very few people could have access.

In a decentralized system, you trust no one you trust the design pattern, you trust themath. You trust the self-adapting system to recheck equilibrium states where reward or

consensus is greater than reward for fraud. And in that equilibrium, the system is not only

self-sustaining, itsalso completely open you dont need axis control, you dont need

secrecy. You dont need vetting when you trust no one but the design pattern. You can

allow everyone to access. It completely inverts the trust model and it creates this new

environment where, through this diffuse authority, you can establish trust across massive

scale with massive participation. [47:56]

But heres the problemyou cant explainthat. Itsvery difficult to explain that narrative

because people intrinsically or intuitively, actively associate authority with centralization.

Because that is the only authority model they have ever seen. So when you say Bitcoin

has no center, they will say, OK, I understand how it has no center, but who runs it? It

doesnt have a center, Who controls it? It isnt controlled byanyone, its reallya

collaborative function. Okay, but could someone take over the controls? Well,there are

no controls to take over. There is no center or any levers of power at the center, that

someone could take over. [48:44]


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And you go into the circular discussion were people are grasping for the central authority.

Whether thats a system thats runningit, a lever of power that can be pulled by someone,

or even an authority figure who is Satoshi? And what do you mean it doesnt matter who

Satoshi isof course, it matters! What are the motivations of the creator of this thing?

Thatsa very interesting question because that is a question born of a centralized authoritymodel. Because when authority is derived by the creator of the system, when authority is

derived by who issued the currency not who uses it, then the motives of the issuer

matter because the issuer still has their hands on the levers of control. The motives of the

issuer matter very much. The trustworthiness of the issuer matters because they can exert

control into the future of that system. And every centralized authority system weve known

requires us to trust a certain authority. The root of trust is sitting at the center and so with

Bitcoin, you pull back the curtain. [49:57]

[CE]: The question doesnt make sense toask who is in charge? Because everyone is incharge. [50:03]

[AA]: But that is an unsatisfactory answer. Because the context in which the question is

asked is so steeped in certain assumptions, about how authority and trust works. Because

the only two models we have seen so far are either authority vested in a single individual or

authority vested in a hierarchical organization, designed to distribute that authority through

checks and balances, implemented through process. So we use organizational and process

tools to control authority, to diffuse it. Whether that is the U.S. constitution, creating a

three tier government or three part government, with checks and balances. Whether itsa

corporate governance board, where a board of directors vies for power against the chief

executive officer to create balance. Essentially, to un-vest the individual and instead, to vest

the process with a high level of trust because the process isnt not as easily corruptible.

[51:08]

And then we have taken this process a step further, with vesting authority in the design

pattern, we are diffusing authority completely, until there is no center not even an

organization. Thats avery difficult leap for people to make. Itsjust as difficult as it was in

the middle ages for people to think, Well, if we give up on the king, if we take away royalty

how do we make decisions? How can we possibly make a decision if every peasant has

an opinion? How can we possibly create society at scale without a king? It was very

difficult for people to understand. A democracyjust wasnt hampered because the king

didnt want it. It was also hampered, primarily hampered, by the peasants themselves

because this idea sounds pretty weird to me. At least that guy up there in the castle, I

know who he is, I know where he lives and if he gets too out of control, we might actually

have one of his relatives kill him and take over, as usually happened. This idea of diffuse

authority given to the people, sounds pretty strange and radical. [52:26]


16/24

[CE]: Democracy means people in power together. Very, very closely modeled to

implement. It was an innovation Cleisthenes, an ancient Greek ruler or at least the guy

who put in the reformshe is the one who gets the credit. He did it in response to the

mob. This isnt government formedin a classroom, out of theory this was out of

necessity and what it did was give the people of Athens ancient Athensa sense ofautonomy and a sense of self (???) in a way, we look back at now and just to go in awe.

This is one of the most successful civilizations in the human story and its remarkable than it

got lost as a system of governance for so long and now were getting back. [53:25]

This has all to do with the relationship between the sophosand the demosthe experts

and the people. When I have some information that you dont have that you needI am

encumbered, I have a responsibility. Do I use it for my own private ends or do I use it to help

you? Its a choice I have to make. I dont have a choice about the choice, if you like. Even

if I choose to act dishonestly, I still got to live with that truth, myself later on. I dont thinkwe could always get away this is something the comes up and in DostoyevskysCrime and

Punishmentwhen we commit our crimes we pay for them twice once in the

punishment society gives us and again, of course, myself I punish myself for the things I

have wronged. [54:17]

But I think we just need to be careful we dont talk this about centralization,

decentralization continuum into a moral issue. What was morally reprehensible at the

banks was not how they organized themselves, per se, but the actions of the individuals

themselves. Democracy is an expensive system to implement, very costly, so itssubject to

the availability of resources whether you can be fully decentralized. Who were the good

bankers, who were the good people [INAUDIBLE]. [54:57]

[AA]: Its a matterof scale, Chris. Thats the bottom line. In that, if we look at banks today

and what they are doing, is they are failing to scale trust. Because they are vulnerable to

large systemic effects. But that is something that happened over time. If you go back to

the 16th

century when you see first commercial institutions evolve from out of the Dutch

East India Company and the British East India Company and all of the expeditions that were

happening. The creation of the modern corporation, the creation of the modern open

banking system, the creation of the modern stock markets and the ability for individuals to

invest in corporations, which up to then, were royal charters. The investors were the

aristocracy and only the aristocracy. It wasnt about the lack of money, it was about the

scale the ability to scale these institutions. So if you look at banks then, they took

something that was only the purview of kings and they gave it to a billion, maybe two billion

people, have the economic tools that only kings had in the 16th

century. [56:18]


17/24

So banking was a huge equalizer. It was a system of equalization and meritocracy. The

modern currencies, the same thing. The modern corporation, the same thing. All of these

were systems that flattened power that took it out of a pyramid structure and squashed

it. But what happens over time? As the base of the system gets wider and wider and wider,

it starts looking like a pyramid again. It fails the scale. [56:50]

And what we see now is the egalitarian moves of these systems or the egalitarian impact

of these systems gradually diminishing over time until it starts operating contrary to

egalitarian principals and starts re-concentrating power. Its a failure to scale the system.

Its a failure to make the pyramid flat, so it starts getting pointier and pointier. [57:21]

What Bitcoin does is, simply, unlocks the next level of scale. Like achievement unlocked.

You manage to go from the one thousand kings to the one billion peasantslevel of

economic scale. Cryptocurrencies will take us from the one billion peasants to the seven

billion human level of scale. Because we can scale them better. And at some point, theyre

also going to fail to scale and we are going to need to disrupt that pyramid, too. And that is

the endless cycle of change. That is the entropic nature of the universe. The things that

start off as great egalitarian forces, end up becoming power systems. [INAUDIBLE] [58:05]

[CE]: Thats a great thesis there. Yes itsabout understanding the small, in relation to

the big. This is about bringing together the public and private interests. You have the local

private interest (???) then you have the public interest which needs stability, needs

consensus, needs a form of agreement. Thatswhat the blockchain network does. For me,

thatswhat I find important about it and thatswhy I think it has intrinsic value. [58:35]

You talked about scale maybe that should bring us on to the socio economic implications.

[INAUDIBLE] A trustless network doesnt rid us of the need for trust, on the contrary, it

actually makes trust more important and in particular, you should probably, and your

listeners should look up the idea of stranger interaction in sociology. These are the

chances we take on each other before we know each other, those kind of thin slice, if you

will that is another key word. We all walk around with a very, very thin slice of

information of the world and yet, I still believe Ive been here for three decades, and Ive

done pretty well. No, I dont have very much information on what is going on. [59:18]

[Music][59:56]


18/24

[CE]: So this stranger interaction it turns out you put up a sign in the street, it says,

Will pay $1 to talk to a complete stranger? Peopledo it. And they dont even do it for the

money. Money just says, Itsok to do this you kind want to do it, but it gives you an

excuse. Now, we are at the sociological layer we can talk about the need for movement,

the need for change. Not just at the levels we talked about already. But also, you mightneed to change the people you hang out with. In order to create this new business that

youve been dreaming of, you might need to meet somebody new that can add something

to your life that hasnt happened before. [1:00:39]

Also, the sociological layer letstalk a little bit about memetic desire I find Bitcoin

valuable Ive spoken tohundreds, if not more than a thousand people about Bitcoin last

year, from about February onwards I got really immersed in it. [1:01:00]

It starts with intentions. They want to know why you are telling them about Bitcoin.

Because if thats gonnachange everything if suddenly, Oh no, I have to think about my

money, now? I thought I could rely on that. theyregonna want to know why and they are

gonna want to know whatsin it for you. If I agree, with you, that this should be valuable as

well if I ally my interests with yours what do you get out of it? And if you get

something out of if, am I ok with that? And what do I get out of it? And what does

everybody else get out of it? [1:01:33]

And you cant even itsdifficult, this issue of manipulation and I mean, psychological

manipulation. Itsvery difficult, I think, when people talk about Bitcoin to make it sound like

this is good for everybody. I think that has something to do with the deflationary economicsthat are built into it. A lot of people say, Well, if itsdeflationary, isnt everything going to

get [blank] up? They dont understand, surely we need more money, but what they dont

understand is the concepts of infinity. They dont understand the difference between

infinity and eternity. Eternity is that which has no direction, it just is just as much inside

as outside, it doesnt knowboundaries, doesnt have limits. [1:02:20]

But infinity can last forever but it can also have a direction. So yes, you can take an ounce

of silver and you can keep dividing it up into infinitely small pieces so long as you can

identify and discern every piece of silver taking off, thats fine. As long as each oneis equal,fungible, they can be exchanged for the same amount. A bitcoin is worth a bitcoin always

itsok. But you are still left with the finite ounce that you started. And that is the

important point, you get an infinity and you get value creation within the currency supply

thats still tied to a finite whole. [1:03:04]


19/24

When you start printing more money, when you break that promisethe fixed issuance

promise you made at the door when people came in and you said there was only going to be

21 million coins or whatever your total supply was going to be what you are doing is you

are taking all the work that people did in the market all the price discovery, all the price

comparison sites you went to thatswork. that was minimal but was work non the less.You are providing value and then the central bank says, Letsproduce another silver coin.

Now, this is where the theft comes in, where the fraud is. Because now what you are doing

is taking all the work that the people did on the ground, out there in the world price

discovery and then yourechoosing to give this asset a new value exactly to your friends,

presumably youregoing to give it to the banksters, youregoing to give it to your friends in

government. Its nepotism youregoing to give it to the people that are closest to you.

[1:04:00]

And as a result, theyregoing to for a short time enjoy some of the benefits of this newounce of silver. For a while, it will still have the properties of the value that was generated in

the first ounce. But over time, people will begin to realize actually, this money is more

abundant than I thought it was. And anyway, itsnot the money I want its what it buys

me. Money doesnt want to gettoo valuable, because then you want it too much, it cant

lose its value too quickly either, because then people start misallocating their money. They

start putting it into things they dont really need,just to preserve the capital. [1:04:36]

This fraud, is very subtle in The Republic, Plato brings up this commonality between

rhetoric and relativism. What I find when I go out and I try to talk to people about Bitcoin, I

usually start it from the issues that affect them the most. So if I am talking to a bar or

something, Illbring up a notion of the fees on the network and the chargebacks. And what

you tend to find what you believe and what I believe itsall relative, isnt it? You could

just use clever language this is the rhetorician. You could use just clever language and

blind sight me. Yes, I hear what you are saying and that makes sense to me, in a logical way.

Dontknow whether youre tooclever I dont know whetherthis thing that you have that

I dont have. [1:05:35]

The way I find is best Imjust bringing this back now, this theme started with memetic

desire trying to get other people to want something because you believe it is good. I think

what you have to do is be very patient. If it is obvious this person doesnt have the time

right now, a lot going on in their lives, I think the appropriate thing for you to say is,Ok,

thank you for giving me your time. If you have any questions, here is my email address.

write your email address on something. But if you find they are interested in this what I

would do is I would start with Bitcoin and if they are interested in it, then you can move into

the wider ecosystem the altcoins, you can talk about the businesses that are growing out

of this, the business opportunities that are emerging. [1:06:27]


20/24

Then I think you make your way in. Start with that problem first, then itsabout being

patient, make sure you dont make them feel silly. Sometimes people dont like it when

somebody knows something that they dont because perhaps they like to feel like they are

very clever. Be sensitive to that, particularly if you get into the technical stuff. I wouldnt talk

about mining as a rule, certainly not on your first go thats kind of high end. Leave thatuntil a bit later. [1:07:00]

Then we have gone from the physics, sociology, and this whole thing hangs together with

these wonderful adjectives we call numbers. those things that are universal are

understood the world over no matter what culture you are from no matter what language

you speak everybody understands the concept of 1,2. Everybody knows the quantities in

their world, the sequences in their world and thats what for me, makes this really powerful.

[1:07:32]

[AA]: Well thats the essence of adesign pattern. Money is a language and value is a

symbolic and abstract thing that we assign to things using the language of money. Its a

shared cultural system. It doesnt have existence outside of human culture. Money isnt

something you see outside of human culture because it is human culture. And it doesnt

have value outside of human culture because, again, itsjust an artifact of human

symbology. [1:08:08]

Within that system, we create the stories that allow us to understand and to use that

conversation, to use the language of money. essentially to create more efficient ways of

interacting with each other. If we didnt speak the same language, we could still

communicate through pantomime and memetics and hand gestures. Based on our shared

values, I can explain food to any human in the world by making a few hand gestures because

we have the same shared cultural understanding of food, which is a biological

understanding. [1:08:50]

Explaining money is harder but at the same time, it is a shared language because it allows us

to interact with people in a much more efficient way than trying to transact with physical

things that are not abstract. Itshard to explain money itshard to think about money

but in the end, it is something we do all the time. In some ways, money is one of the oldestinventions of humanity. Its history goes back hundreds of thousands of years. itsas basic as

fire and language. And probably started appearing soon after fire and language. Basic tool

making leads to creation of forms of intrinsic values and symbols that represent that.

[1:09:47]


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This is a very ancient conversation and part of the difficulty here is that people in the

present are not aware of the fact this is a conversation that has been happening for

hundreds of thousands of years. a lot of the things we take for granted are more of a

reflection of the medium that we use to speak the language. Quarks of the language,

colloquialisms we use colloquialisms of paper money. we use speech patterns and habitsand expressions that really speak to our common understandings of paper money and

increasingly of credit cards. They color our understanding of money because we have these

little quarks of language. [1:10:35]

Thats why itsimportant to have this discussion. I grew up bilingual and one of the things I

realized very early onis having two languages to draw from, very quickly gives you the

ability to start comparing. Comparative linguistics opens a whole window of understanding

because suddenly you realize the difference between things that are intrinsic to the

language and things that are part of what you are trying to express with the language.And how different languages handle these little quarks. [1:11:16]

Now, everyone is offered the opportunity to be fluent in multiple currencies. Not multiple

currencies based on the same model but multiple currencies that derive from completely

different models. Just like speaking Mandarin and English gives you one of the deepest

levels of comparative linguistics because you have some of the fundamental constructs of in

the language completely conceived differently. [1:11:47]

Cryptocurrencies and fiat give us very, very deep comparative numismatics. It gives us the

ability to talk about money in a new and interesting way because for the first time we cancompare two radically different concepts of currency. And that just doesnt teach us about

cryptocurrencies. I think more importantly, its teaching people about currency, in general.

Helping them understand the money they already have, better than they did before. That

the new conversation werehaving. [1:12:20]

[CE]: The question were having is: now what? Like you say, to continue on from where

youresaying this is about value, created around lines of trust and culture and not around

national borders anymore. And I think what the point is I think this technology can help

them get there because youve got monetary systems where regulation is baked in bydesign. Ethics are baked into the code you donthave to have a police officer to go around

enforcing the double spends, because everyone is a police officer. Everyone is downloading

the wallet software, every wallet software is a master node. It will trace every transaction

and it will verify the validity of the blockchain, of the public ledger all the claims, all of the

economic claims that have been made on the network will be verified independently by

each node. [1:13:20]


22/24

[AA]: Right, exactly, so itsironic because people say Bitcoin is unregulated. Where is, in

fact, Bitcoin is regulatedit is regulated by convention by algorithm. Itsregulated by our

shared understanding of the protocol. And that means it is regulated by every one of us.

Where it takes away counterparty risk mandated from the outside, it gives us the

opportunity to add the counterparties of our choice, with things like multi-sig. [1:13:47]

It challenges our very notions of where the sources of authority is. and how to conduct

ourselves in a system where deterministic resolution of transactions is possible based on

this shared consensus where you not only know what is happening on the Bitcoin

network through examination of the blockchain each individual client can independently

verify each transaction without external recourse, simply by looking at the proof-of-work

that is embedded in the blockchain. [1:14:22]

But not only do you know what is happening on the Bitcoin network, you also know that

everybody else knows, what is happening on the Bitcoin network. You also know that

everybody else knows, that everybody else knows, what is happening on the network.

[1:14:38]

So itsnot just your applying the convention to arrive to a conclusion or derive some

knowledge. You know that everyone is applying the same convention and therefore you can

predict they will arrive at the same conclusion. And finally, you know that everybody

understands this convention is broadly shared and therefore everyone can predict the

entire network will arrive at the same conclusion through this process of consensus. And

thats kind of a very beautiful thing. Its a very elegant thing, because it is theultimateextension of knowledge. Itsnot something I know itssomething I know, I know you

know it and you know that I know it. Sounds like a rabbit hole, in fact its a very important

principal of knowledge which is that shared understanding. Shared consensus which

allows us to make deterministic predictions about what will happen on the blockchain.

[1:15:33]

If I look at a transaction, I can tell you whether that transaction will be verified because I

know that everyone will use the same approach to decide that question. And that is

extremely powerful because it means you no longer have to rely on trust, outside of yourown understanding of the system. it will be a very powerful form of justice because that

shared understanding cannot be easily violated or confused or cheated by anyone acting

against the common consensus when everyone is marching to the same beat, that 10

minute pulse of block confirmation through increased proof-of-work. Itsvery easy to notice

the one actor that is trying to march against the beat. Itsvery difficult to march against

that beat. [1:16:20]


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This is a new narrative and itsone that will take some time to understand. The ones who

are most steeped in the old narrative are the ones who are going to have the greatest

difficulty adapting to this. The same for bankers, as itsbeen for scientists any other

profession. You tend to use the existing paradigm [INAUDIBLE] [1:16:44]

I think there is an interesting realization, bankers themselves as individuals are, for the most

part, nice people. And for the most part, they are doing a good job and living in a system

where they feel they are getting properly rewarded for delivering the centralized trust that

people need. In that respect, theyredoing good. It is only as a system, as a whole where

the systemic compromise at every level and the opportunities for corruption meet, that as a

whole, the system doesnt dogood. But most individuals in the system are just moving with

the flow. But the nice news is that with this new system, because it is completely external

to the traditional banking system, we dont need their permission. And just like many

decentralization movements in the past, the people in the center are least likely to give youpermission to decentralize them out of a job. As in many cases, they have no control over it.

The most disruptive moments that remove control over the future of the disruption from

the people who are most likely to be disrupted. [1:18:07]

Bitcoin doesnt need anybodyspermission. Cryptocurrencies, as a design pattern, can be

adopted on an individual by individual basis, until the reality of it is simply momentous,

mountainous, and[1:18:22]

[CE]: Everything youve said isabsolutely on the button. I would actually say that the

blockchain tells two stories. It tells a story to us in the present about the transfer of valuebut it also tells the story to the future. You gotta think about this as a permanent ledger, a

permanent record and the history is going to look back at the things that you did. Itsgoing

to be very, very difficult to separate your identity from your actions on the blockchain over

time. You can do it weakly youve spoken about it before, weak pseudonymity. Yes, you do

get some anonymity. Of course, with some anonymity, comes authenticity youre able to

explore new ways of being, new sides to yourself that perhaps the society youreembedded

in didnt let you. But over time, that anonymity is going to look very, very temporary. I

think we all need to think about the way what history were leaving behind? What are we

going to leave for the people later? [1:19:23]

[AA]: The adage is: once something is on the internet, itson the internet forever. [1:19:29]

[AA] and [CE]: [INAUDIBLE]

[CE]: These are economic claims you are making. If you donthave money, you dont have a

voice. And this is the thing whatever youredoing with your money is going to speak

even more about the kind of person that you are. [1:19:50]


24/24

[AA]: This has been a fascinating conversation about the nature of money, the nature of

reality, philosophy as it applies to Bitcoin, intrinsic value, the future of justice, and

decentralized systems. As always, [1:20:09]

[CE]: [INAUDIBLE] [1:20:11]

[AA]:[INAUDIBLE] Thanks for joining me today. [1:20:12]

[ABL]: Thanks for listening to Episode 101 of Lets Talk Bitcoin. Content for this episode

was provided by Andreas M. Antonopoulos and Chris Ellis. Music for this episode was

provided by Jared Rubens and General Fuzz. Any questions or comments, email

[email protected]. Have a good one. [1:20:30]

[Music]

let's talk bitcoin ep 101 - the why of bitcoin

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