eurasian origins of berbers and modern north africans

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Eurasian Origins of Berbers and modern North Africans.Posted on May 2, 2008 | 162 Comments

Eurasian Origin of Berbers and m odern North Africans

Essentially the same thing, as North Africans are mainly Arabized Berbers..

Essentially , about ten thousand y ears ago a population wave from the near East swept over North

Africa, bringing in gracile Mediterranean people in the Capsian era. A later wave of immigration

occurred in the Neolithic when the expanding farmers from the near east ploughed their way across

North Africa, some leav ing artwork in the central Sahara to mark their passage. As far as DNA studies

can tell, the Arab invasions that converted North Africans to Islam made v irtually no impact to the

population; essentially they converted the local population and didn’t replace them. There was a only

trace contribution made to North Africa by Europe during the Barbary slavery era, but quite a

significant amount of sub Saharan maternal ancestry was added. The modern North African is mainly

Eurasian in ancestry , and cluster with Europeans and west Asians. To quote Cavalli Sforza..

Berbers are located primarily in the northern regions of Algeria and Morocco, but somewhat

to the interior, usually not far from the sea. . Berbers are believed to have their ancestors

among Capsian Mesolithics and their Neolithic descendants, possibly with genetic

contributions from the important Neolithic migrations from the Near East. It is reasonable to

hypothesize that the Berber (Afro-Asiatic) language was introduced by the Neolithic farmers

Any way , this page has a few links to DNA studies of North Africans, which I should really start updating.

I’s not complete. One day I will redo the whole thing to be neater and more comprehensive.

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/



Sean Myles , Nourdine Bouzekri , Eden Haverfield , Mohamed Cherkaoui , Jean-

Michel Dugoujon and Ryk Ward

(1) Institute of Biological Anthropology, University of Oxford, Oxford, UK

(2) Department of Evolutionary Genetics, Max-Planck Institute for Evolutionary

Anthropology, Deutscher Platz 6, 04103, Leipzig, Germany

(3) Department of Human Genetics, University of Chicago, 920 East 58th Street,

Chicago, IL 60637, USA

(4) Laboratoire dEcologie Humaine, Faculté des Sciences-Semlalia, Université Cadi

Ayyad, Morocco

(5) Centre dAnthropologie CNRS,, University of Toulouse, UMR 8555, France

Received: 15 November 2004 Accepted: 23 December 2004 Published online:

2 April 2005

Abstract The process by which pastoralism and agriculture spread from the Fertile Crescent

over the past 10,000 years has been the subject of intense investigation by geneticists,

linguists and archaeologists. However, no consensus has been reached as to whether this

Neolithic transition is best characterized by a demicdiffusion (witha significant genetic input

1, 2 1 1, 3 4

5 1

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/berbers.jpg



from migrating farmers) or a culturaldiffusion (without substantialmigration of farmers).

Milk consumption and thus lactose tolerance are assumed to have spread with pastoralism

and we propose that by looking at the relevant mutations in and around the lactase gene in

human populations, we can gain insight into the origin(s) and spread of dairying. We

genotypedthe putatively causal allele for lactose tolerance (–13910T) and constructed

haplotypes from several polymorphisms in and around the lactase gene (LCT) in three

NorthAfrican Berber populations and compared our results with previously published data.

We found that the frequency of the –13910T allele predicts the frequency of lactose tolerance

in several Eurasian and North African Berber populations but not in most sub-Saharan

African populations. Our analyses suggest that contemporary Berber populations possess

the genetic signature of a past migration of pastoralistsfrom the Middle East and that they

share a dairying origin withEuropeans and Asians, but not with sub-Saharan Africans.

Mitochondrial DNA heterogeneity in Tunisian Berbers

Berbers live in groups scattered across NorthAfrica whose origins and genetic relationships

with their neighbours are not well established. The first hypervariablesegment of the

mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region was sequenced in a total of 155 individuals from

three Tunisian Berber groups and compared to other North Africans. The mtDNA lineages

found belong to a common set of mtDNA haplogroups already described in NorthAfrica.

Besides the autochthonous North African U6 haplogroup, a group of L3 lineages

characterized by the transition at position 16041 seems to be restricted to North Africans,

suggesting that an expansion of this group of lineages took place around 10500 years ago in

NorthAfrica, and spread to neighbouring populations. Principal components and the

coordinate analyses show that some Berber groups (the Tuareg, the Mozabite, and the

Chenini-Douiret) are outliers within the NorthAfrican genetic landscape. This outlier

position is consistent with an isolation process followed by genetic drift in

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/berberchildwh1.jpg



haplotypefrequencies, and with the high heterogeneity displayed by Berbers compared to

Arab samples as shown in the AMOVA. Despite this Berber heterogeneity, no significant

differences were found between Berber and Arab samples, suggesting that the

Arabization was m ainly a cultural process rather than a dem ographic

replacem ent.

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/berberchildbride.jpg



Genetic studies have emphasized the contrast between North African and sub-Saharan

populations, but the particular affinities of the North African mtDNA pool to that of Europe,

the Near East, and sub-Saharan Africa have not previously been investigated. We have

analysed 268 mtDNA control-region sequences from various Northwest African populations

including severalSenegalese groups and compared these with the mtDNAdatabase. We have

identified a few mitochondrial motifs that are geographically specific and likely predate the

distribution and diversification of modern language families in North and West Africa. A

certain mtDNA motif (16172C, 16219G), previously found in Algerian Berbers at high

frequency, is apparently omnipresent in Northwest Africa and m ay reflect regional

continuity of m ore than 20,000 years. The m ajority of the m aternal ancestors

of the Berbers m ust have com e from Europe and the Near East since the

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/berberbeauty.jpg



Neolithic.The Mauritanians and West-Saharans, in contrast, bear substantial though not

dominant mtDNAaffinity with sub-Saharans.

This is actually a bit innacurate, as the approximate arrivalof a lot of the Eurasian DNA , excluding U,

coincides withthe Neolithic expansion and arrival of the Capsian culture about 10,000 y ears ago (from

Cranio facial studies of ancient Magrebian skulls). The Capsians show a gracile build and small face

traceable to the eastern Mediterranean.

The faces of modern North Africa.

Polym orphism of Six Alu Insertions in Morocco: Com parative Study between

Arabs, Berbers, and Casablanca Residents

Abstract Alu elements are the largest family of short tandem interspersed elements (SINEs)

in human who have arisen to a copy number with an excess of 500 000 copies per haploid

human genome and mobilize through an RNAse polymerase III derived transcript in a

process termed retroposition. Several features make Alu insertions a powerful tool used in

population genetic studies: the polymorphic nature of many Alu insertions, the stability of

an Aluinsertion event and, furthermore, the ancestral state of an Alu insertion is known to be

the absence (complete and exact) of the Alu element at a particular locus and the presence of

an Alu insertion at the site that forward mutational change. Here we report on the

distribution of six polymorphic Aluinsertions in a generalMoroccan population and in the

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/moroccan-moors1.jpg

http://www.springerlink.com/content/g301143g43q54304/



Arab and Berber populations from Morocco and their relationships with other populations

previously studied. Our results show that there is a small difference between Arabs and

Berbers and that the Arab population was closer to African populations than Berber

population which is closest to Europeans.

Mitochondrial DNA transit between West Asia and North Africa inferred from

U6 phylogeography

Nicole Maca-Meyer1 , Ana M González1 , José Pestano2 , Carlos Flores1 , José M Larruga1

and Vicente M Cabrera1

Published: 16 October 2003

Abstract

World-wide phylogeographicdistribution of human complete mitochondrial DNA sequences

suggested a West Asian origin for the autochthonous North African lineage U6. We report

here a more detailed analysis of this lineage, unraveling successive expansions that affected

not only Africa but neighboring regions such as the Near East, the Iberian Peninsula and the

Canary Islands.

Results

Divergence times, geographic origin and expansions of the U6 mitochondrial DNA clade,

have been deduced from the analysis of 14 complete U6 sequences, and 56 different

haplotypes, characterized by hypervariable segment sequences and RFLPs.

Conclusions

The m ost probable origin of the proto-U6 lineage was the Near East. Around

30,000 years ago it spread to North Africa where it represents a signature of

regional continuity . Subgroup U6a reflects the first African expansion from the Maghrib

returning to the east in Paleolithic times. Derivative clade U6a1 signals a posterior

movement from East Africa back to the Maghriband the Near East. This migration coincides

with the probable Afroasiatic linguistic expansion. U6b and U6c clades, restricted to West

Africa, had more localized expansions. U6b probably reached the Iberian Peninsula during

the Capsian diffusion in North Africa. Two autochthonous derivatives of these clades(U6b1

and U6c1) indicate the arrival of North African settlers to the Canarian Archipelago in

prehistoric times, most probably due to the Saharan desiccation. The absence of these

Canarian lineages nowadays in Africa suggests important demographic movements in the

western area of this Continent.

The Em erging Tree of West Eurasian m tDNAs: A Synthesis of Control-Region

Sequences and RFLPs

Variation in the human mitochondrial genome (mtDNA) is now routinely described and

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/4/15

http://www.stats.gla.ac.uk/~vincent/papers/980656.web.pdf



used to infer the histories of peoples, by means of one of two procedures, namely, the

assaying of RFLPsthroughout the genome and the sequencing of parts of the control region

(CR). Using 95 samples from the Near East and northwest Caucasus, we present an analysis

based on both systems, demonstrate their concordance, and, using additional available

information, present the most refined phylogeny to date of west Eurasian mtDNA. We

describe and apply a nomenclaturefor mtDNA clusters. Hypervariable nucleotides are

identified, and the relative mutation rates ofthe two systems are evaluated. We point out

where ambiguities remain. The identification of signature mutations for each cluster leads us

to apply a hierarchical scheme for determining the cluster composition of a sample of Berber

speakers, previously analyzed only for CR variation. We show that the m ain

indigenous North African cluster is a sister group to the m ost ancient cluster of

European m tDNAs, from which it diverged »50,000 years ago.

MtDNA Profile of West Africa Guineans: Towards a Better Understanding of the

Senegam bia Region

Alexandra Rosa et al.

The matrilineal genetic composition of 372 samples from the Republic of Guiné-Bissau (West

African coast) was studied using RFLPsand partial sequencing of the mtDNA control and

coding region. The m ajority of the m tDNA lineages of Guineans (94%) belong to

West African specific sub-clusters of L0-L3 haplogroups. A new L3 sub-cluster (L3h)

that is found in both eastern and western Africa is present at moderately low frequencies in

Guinean populations.A non-random distribution of haplogroups U5 in the Fula

group, the U6 am ong the “Bram e” linguistic fam ily and M1 in the Balanta-Djola

group, suggests a correlation between the genetic and linguistic affiliation of Guinean

populations. The presence of M1 in Balanta populations supports the earlier

suggestion of their Sudanese origin. Haplogroups U5 and U6, on the other hand,

were found to be restricted to populations that are thought to represent the

descendants of a southern expansion of Berbers.Particular haplotypes, found almost

exclusively in East-African populations, were found in some ethnic groups with an oral

tradition claiming Sudanese origin.

A possible ancient migration from Asia to Africa was proposed by Cruciani et al. (2002) to

explain the presence of some unusual Y -chromosome lineages identified in West Africa.

Haplogroup R1 (defined by M173 m utation), without further branch defining

m utations (M269 and M17) specific to Europeans, accounted for ~40% of the Y-

chrom osom es in North-Cam eroon, while not yethaving been sampled elsewhere in

Africa. More data from Central and Western Africa are needed to cast light on the origin of

such idiosyncratic mtDNA and Y chromosome lineages. Thus, our U5 sequences from

the Guinean Fulbe people corroborate Cruciani’s hypothesis of a prehistoric

m igration from Eurasia to West Sub-Saharan Africa, testified by their present

day restricted and localised distribution

Alu insertion polym orphism s in NW Africa and the Iberian Peninsula: evidence

http://batzerlab.lsu.edu/Publications/Comas%20et%20al.%202000%20Hum%20Genet.pdf



for a strong genetic boundary through the Gibraltar Straits

Abstract An analysis of 11 Alu insertion polymorphisms (ACE, TPA25, PV92, APO, FXIIIB,

D1, A25, B65, HS2.43, HS3.23, and HS4.65) has been performed in several NW African

(Northern, Western, and Southeastern Moroccans; Saharawi; Algerians; Tunisians) and

Iberian (Basques, Catalans, and Andalusians) populations. Genetic distances and principal

component analyses show a clear differentiation of NW African and Iberian groups of

samples, suggesting a strong genetic barrier m atching the geographical

Mediterranean Sea barrier. The restriction to gene flow may be attributed to the

navigationalhazards across the Straits, but cultural factors must also have played a role.

Some degree of gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa can be detected in the southern part of

North Africa and in Saharawi and Southeastern Moroccans, as a result of a continuous gene

flow across the Sahara desert that has created a south-north cline of sub-Saharan Africa

influence in North Africa. Iberian sam ples show a substantial degree of

hom ogeneity and fall within the cluster of European-based genetic diversity.

The population history of North Africa is particularly interesting because, although the

region belongs to continental Africa, its history has been completely different from the sub-

Saharan part. The peopling of the region has been influenced by two strong geographical

barriers: the Sahara Desert to the south, which splits the African continent into two

differentiated regions, and the Mediterranean Sea to the north, which separates the

European and African continents. These geographical barriers may have constrained

human movements in NorthAfrica into an east-west gradient, although they were not

impermeable to human movements. During the first half of the Holocene, the humid climate

that prevailed in the Sahara produced a receding of the desert allowing human settlements,

but over the past 5000 years, the Sahara Desert has suffered a gradual aridification and has

become as dry as it is nowadays (Said and Faure 1990). Historicalrecords document

extensive trade routes that were established across the desert between sub-Saharan Africa

and the north coast. In contrast, since the time of the Phoenicians, the city-based settlement

pattern of the NW African coast integrated the area into the Mediterranean world. The

seaward orientation of populations persisted and, similar to the desert, separated the

Maghreb (NW Africa) from the rest of Africa to the south (Newman 1995). Moreover, during

the 8th century AD, Berbers from North Morocco and Algeria under Arab leadership crossed

the Mediterranean Sea and occupied the Iberian Peninsula for almost eight centuries,

although the demographic impact of the conquest is thought to be limited (Hitti 1990).

Until recently, few genetic studies have been performed in NW Africa. In the latest

compilation of classical genetic markers in North Africa (Bosch et al. 1997), the first

principal component (PC) of gene frequencies showed an east-west pattern of genetic

differentiation, in agreement with the geographical barrier imposed by the Sahara and the

Mediterranean. Recent work with autosomal short tandem repeats (STRs; Bosch et al.

2000), mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences (Rando et al. 1998), and Y -chromosome

haplotypes (Bosch et al. 1999) has suggested that the gene flow between NW Africa

and Iberia and that between sub-Saharan Africa and NW Africa has been sm all.

MtDNA variation in NW Africa (Rando et al. 1998) has shown a high frequency

http://batzerlab.lsu.edu/Publications/Comas%20et%20al.%202000%20Hum%20Genet.pdf



(up to 25%) of geographically specific sequences (nam ed haplogroup U6) that is

essentially absent in the Iberian Peninsula (from 0% in Andalusians to 5% in

Portuguese). The m tDNA analysis has shown a lim ited gene flow from Europe to

NW Africa that could be attributed to recent hum an m ovem ents.The study of Y -

chromosome haplotypes (Bosch et al. 1999) shows little admixture between NW Africa and

the Iberian Peninsula. The study of 21 autosomal STR loci in NW Africa has also shown a

clear genetic difference between NW African populations and Iberians, although some

degree of gene flow into Southern Iberia (Andalusians) can be detected (Bosch et al. 2000).

Diversité m itochondriale de la population de Taforalt (12.000 ans bp – m aroc):

une approche génétique a l’étude du peuplem ent de l’afrique du nord.

(Mitochondrial diversity in the Taforalt population (circa 12,000 BP, Morocco): a genetic

approach to the study of the peopling of North Africa.)

ABSTRACT:

The population exhumed from the archaeological site of Taforalt in Morocco (12,000 years

BP) is a valuable source of information toward a better knowledge of the settlement of

Northern Africa region and provides a revolutionary way to specify the origin of Ibero-

Maurusian populations. Ancient DNA was extracted from 31 bone rem ains from

Taforalt.The HVS1 fragm ent of the m itochondrial DNA control region was PCR-

am plified and directly sequenced. Mitochondrial diversity in Taforalt shows the

absence of sub-Saharan haplogroups suggesting that Ibero-Maurusian

individuals had not originated in sub-Saharan region.Our results reveal a probable

local evolution of Taforalt population and a genetic continuity in North Africa.

Eurasiatic component (J/T, H, U et V) and North African component (U6).

Genetic structure of Taforalt:

Eurasiatic Com ponent : H, U, JT, V: 90.5%

North African com ponent: U6: 9.5 %

42, 8% (9/21) H or U

14, 2% (3/21) JT

2 individuals (9,5%) U6

Essentially , the DNA studies of Berbers observe that they are mostly similar to Eurasians, and that they

appear to have arrived in North Africa about 30,000 y ears ago plus (Mechta Afaloupeople), with a

second wave of colonisation in the neolithic from the Near East confirmed by the cranio facial

measurements (Loring Brace) of neolithic North Africans. Then then migrated South during the

saharan wetphase about 12,000 y ears ago, with Eurasian Y chromosome now making up 40% of

http://www.mzm.cz/Anthropologie/abstrakty/2005-1/05-1Kefi1.htm

http://www.pnas.org/content/103/1/242.full.pdf



Cameroon’s Y chromosomes as a result (although less in other areas).

All these prehistoric NorthAfricans are described as mostly similar to other Mediterranean Caucasian

populations, with a lesser similarity to Nubians from the Wadi Halfa area. There’s a simplified

explanation of ancient North African population movements here

Edit to Blog..

To the mad Afrocentrist ‘Nubian’ who claims that these DNA studies prove Berbers are all black and that

the white Berbers are the descendants of slaves…

Please show where any of these studies say that.. Because they don’t, at all. They point out that Berbers

are mostly Caucasian and that they ’ve been in North Africa a very long time.

Explain why every anthropologist who’s looked at Mahgrebian bones in the Holocene describes them as

mainly Caucasian Mediterranean.

Explain why the Egy ptians uniform ly portray ed Liby ans as white Caucasians, as they North

Africans did on their own art work.

Explain why all the contem porary art and descriptions of the Moors all show a majority

Caucasian population.

Why the Guanches, an isolated North African group since the BC’s were all white people

with plentiful blondes, if all Berbers were black untill ‘Moorish slavery whitened up

North Africa’?

Also, for those who insist in the face of overwhelming ev idence they were all black in North Africa until

European slaves whitened them up..

From the Roman era in Liby a. All the Roman era mosaics show a mainly Caucasoid light skinned

population in North Africa, as does the rock art.

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/08/24/ancient-north-african-population-movements/

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/07/17/the-ancient-libyans/

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/who-the-moors-really-were/

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/the-guanches-of-the-canary-islands/



http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/c-coin.jpg

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/c-coin2.jpg



Carthage era coins, with two coins showing Hannibal.

The Tassili ladies, from Algeria (age unclear, but sometime in the BC). I have a wider collection of

images here.

I also have a 16th century image of the contemporary Guanches; pure blood North Africans with no

European or sub Saharan ancestry mixed in, isolated on the Canary islands since about 500 BC, alone

for about 1 ,000 y ears until the Spanish invaded.

In the brown skin clothing. As y ou can see he is pretty indistinguishable from the Spaniard holding him.

I would also like to point out that the T uareg at not ‘the only real Berbers’ as is often claim ed.

In fact, they are related to the Beja, and are relatively recent arrivals in North West Africa who have

adopted Berber customs. They are also about half Eurasian in ancestry . The recent contribution of

Europeans to the North African genepool is 4% for males, and probably less than 2% for females; 12,000

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/c-coin-6.gif

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/07/17/the-ancient-libyans/



y ear old DNA studies show only Eurasian derived mt DNA in ancient North Africans from Morocco. It

isn’t likely to be very high though, as the majority of Barbary slaves were males. A good comparison

would be the Arabian peninsula. About 8 million or so slaves were imported from Eaest Africa into this

area, but only about 10% of the Mt DNA there is African. By contrast about 1 .25 million Europeans

ended up on the Barbary coast, so this is unlikely to have made a difference of more than a couple of

percent to the whole. Way more black African slaves were imported into the area during the Barbary

slavery era, so the net difference is probably that they are slightly darker than they used to be.

I’d also like to point out to those who feel the need to spam m e with descriptions of

Berbers as black or brown from old European texts…

Europeans used these words differently back then. Brown was used to describe any one with a moderate

tan, black was a skin tone of a dark tan seen with black hair and dark ey es. Ladies and children had white

skin. Europeans commonly called any one with black hair and a heavy tan black, so believ ing that black

in medieval/renaissance literature refers to a black African is incorrect. In fact, y ou can find references

to Jews, Turks and Spaniards as being black. Gy psies were still referred to as black into the 20th

century . See below. Black Africans are referred to as Ethiopians in these old texts.

The men were very black, with their hair frizzled, the women were the most ugly and the

blackest that were ever seen. .. they had sorceresses amongst them , who by pretended to

look into peoples hands, to tell them what had or would happen to them…” p. 153 of The

Christian journal and Literary Reigster published I 1827 by T & J. Swords? Photo Arabian

gypsies , European gypsies James Michener’s Iberia Spanish Travels and Reflections 1968.

18?? – “We were not far from Pressburg when at once we heard in the distance, a singing,

shouting and hallooing which continually grew nearer. Presently we met four wagons, in

which a brown company of gypsies were seated. It was a curious sight. Their sat men and

women, girls and boys all dark as half-negroes, in ragged array, with long shining hair,

smeared after Hungarian fashion with lard…We gazed at them in astonishment…”

Wanderings of a Journeyman Tailor through Europe and the East: During the years 1824 to

184

COMMENT S POLICY .

Unfortunately necessary , as Afrocentrists feel the need to spam this page with moronic comments. All

comments need to be approved by me before they ’ll appear. They won’t be posted unless…

They are an intelligent comment

I’m in a bad mood and feel like ridiculing someone (Dana/Don).

I’d also like to point out that NOT ONE SINGLE ANTHROPOLOGIST takes the v iew that there’s been any

kind of population change in North Africa since the Neolithic. Take that as a hint.



162 RESPONSES TO “EURASIAN ORIGINS OF BERBERS AND MODERN NORTH AFRICANS.”

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Pingback: X chromosome study of Mediterranean populations « Mathilda’s Anthropology Blog.

xvcxvxc | November 2, 2008 at 9:39 am | Reply

Saami and Berbers–an unexpected mitochondrial DNA link.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/157 91543

Pingback: Tom joj » Are there any northwewt african tribes?

Lisa Dupri | December 7, 2008 at 10:26 pm | Reply

It’s really a shame, a disgrace that u just deleated an entry made by Dana Rey nolds Marniche

of the Rasta Limewhire website Team whi studies allot of books about the ancient Berbers and

discriptions of Romans, Greeks and Arabs. Who actually prove that Berbers are paternally

Blacks, and have a maternal white slave, greek, Sea People,Roman, Arab, Turk origin. Can’t

y ou handle the truth? Why are y ou censoring this blog when somebody posts historical facts

with their sources? So Sad, oh so sad.

mathilda37 | December 9, 2008 at 4:06 pm | Reply

Why are you censoring this blog when somebody posts historical facts with their

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http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/category/evolution/

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http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/10/09/x-chromosome-study-of-mediterranean-populations/

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15791543

http://www.tomjoj.cn/social-science/are-there-any-northwewt-african-tribes/





sources?

I deleted it because I’ve got an entry specific to that POS on another blog, where I

deconstruct a fair chunk of it and display what a steaming heap it is.

She completely decided to omit the numerous anthropological studies, historic

descriptions and contemporay Spanish artwork that show a mostly Caucasoid

Berber/Arab force attacking Spain.

BTW, DNA studies and anthropological studies have shown every time that there were

several Eurasian migrations into N Africa from about 30k ago and 8k ago. Carletoon Coon

(who the ‘team’ pretend say North Africans were black) actually said that the modern

Mediterranoid Berbers have been in situ at least 15,000 y ears. DNA studies on ancient N

Af bones how Eurasian DNA from 12,000 y ears ago.

Coon on Berbers

The third discrete racial element in Africa is the Caucasoid, which, as indicated

earlier, first entered the continent in massive invasions about 15,000 years

ago, certainly from Western Asia and possibly also from Europe. The

descendants of those invaders who are still fully or essentially Caucasoid are

the Berbers.

Cavalli Sforza on Berbers

The Berber populations nearer the Mediterranean coast were probably

Caucasoids. There is little doubt that they came from the Middle East, and they

have occupied the region since the Neolithic or even earlier. Experienced

sailors like other Neolithic peoples, they colonized the Canary Islands. When

the Spaniards conquered these islands in the fifteenth century, they found a

distinct population with some blond-haired and blue-eyed people -traits that

are still evident among some Berbers in Morocco. They spoke Guanche, an

Afroasiatic Berber language. By the time the Spanish arrived, they had lost the

ability to sail.

Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza,

Also, the word ‘brown’ for skin was used to mean ‘a tan’ in northern Europeans, and

any one of gy psy colouring was called black. We called black Africans ‘Ethiopians’, not

black. So any desciption of North Africans being ‘black’ only means they looked

Arab/darkish. Try reading some proper text books on the moorish invasion. The Arabs

and Spanish kept very good records on which Berber tribes were Ethiopians. Of all that list

of drivel, only the top entry with ‘affrights it’s cradle’ actually describes black berbers.

Some of the moors used to dy e their hair black so they didn’t look like the Spaniards. So

half of that stuff they claim means ‘black African’ translates into modern language as



moderately tanned or middle Eastern in colouring

She also left out that the all Berber genetically Guanches were described as tall and tanned

and handsome with a great many blondes in their number. These were native north

Africans that never saw Europeans until the Spanish wiped them out.

The Eurasian maternal contribution goes back before written history , it’s from 12,000

y ears and older (there is solid proof from ancient bones). The Berbers have paternally

native north African, not ‘black’ Y chromosomes y ou moron. The M81 Y chromsome is

never seen south of the Sahara, and very uncommon in black Africans.

BTW, Tuareg are newcomers to the North Africa area. They originated in East Africa, are

half Eurasian, and aren’t genetically Bebers.

But of course, y ou can’t handle the truth. That’s why y ou never see the any of the images

or historical descriptions or any relevant quotes from anthropologists on that POS site.

Justin | December 14, 2008 at 10:27 am | Reply

I fully agree with Mathilda37 !

I’m Portuguese on both male & female lineages since generations and generations. My

ancestors are all from the northern part of the actual Portugal (former Gallaicia). My paternal

grandfather was tall, blue-ey ed and with a very fair skin. Not at all the Mediterranean ty pical

person!.

I am my self tall (1 .82m), green-ey ed and fair skin.

So, some months ago I subscribed for a complete Y -DNA & mt-DNA tests. The results are: Y

DNA: E1b1b1b (M81 modal) & mt DNA : H. Conclusion, I’m a kind of Celtiberber!

I wasn’t surprised at all, knowing that berber presence in the northern part of the Iberian

Peninsula is much more older than the Muslim invasion of Iberia in the early 8th century .

luis | December 17, 2008 at 12:09 am | Reply

Justin,I have E1b1b1b2,tracing my father lineage ancestors I found all where pasiegos since

1650 I wonder how this pasiego population isolated in west Cantabria got there and

when.The idea of a group of berbers? concentrated in a small area as a result of arab invasion

in 7 th century do not seem very accurate to me.May I understand , by y ou comment, that

may be pasiegos moved south to N Africa? By the way I have also H mtdna

Justin | December 19, 2008 at 8:22 pm | Reply

Luis,

The concentration of E1b1b1b2 in the Pasiego population is a mistery and still under hot

debates. One thing is sure and well covered in this blog, the E-M81 subclade is found mainly

in the northwestern part of Africa. So, the Berber presence in Ibera started from Africa to our






beautiful peninsula and not the opposite.

The only thing I wanted to say is that the presence of Berbers in Ibera is a very very old story

which started well before the

Arab invasion in the early 8th century . It’s mainly true in the north of the peninsula (North

Portugal/Galicia, asturias, cantabria). Berbers were already there before the Romans

arrival…

Justin | December 21, 2008 at 11:20 am | Reply

Luis,

Here y ou’ll find a lot of information on the E1b1b1b presence in y our beautiful Cantabria

region.

http://community .haplozone.net/index.php?topic=881.15

Y ou are amoung the oldest inhabitants of Iberia (it goes back to prehistoric times). As i said

in my prev ious message y our ancestors were there well before the islamic expansion in

Iberia (7 th – 8th century ), y es they came from North africa, but well before the islamisation

of Africa.

At that time, the northwestern part of Africa was populated by white caucasoid Amazigh

tribes (Berbers).

During the islamic expansion in Iberia, y our ancestors were already Christians, and that,

since the beginning of christianity in the Iberic peninsula. They surely participated at the

battles against the “Mauros”…

NubianMoor | December 24, 2008 at 4:48 pm | Reply

Even the Kaby les where Black and some verry dark with an exeption of a few white tribes till

very recently !!!

Here is an account from 1834 by Scotman Thomas Campbell: The Kaby lesdress like the Arabs

and a part from a few tribes, are brown complexioned and black haired p. 109 Barbary and

Enlightenment: European Attitudes Toward the Maghreb in the 18th Century , Ann Thomson.

Published 1987 by E. J. Bull

In 1890 was written “The Kaby les or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territoriesbesides

tillage, work the mines contained in their mountainsThey live in huts made of branches of

trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old NumidiansThey are of

middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” from The

Ency clopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen

Company p. 261 Volume I 1890. Other accounts are similar.

ITS CLEARLY SAY S SOMETHIMES NEARLY BLACK!!!! BLACK !!! GO BUY THE BOOK AND

READ IT Y OURESELF what do y ou have to say on that? This time we are not talking about

ancient “black”terms but 1830-7 0-80’s BLACK, so even the Kaby les where Black Berbers


http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=881.15




who where whitened by the Slave Trade and White Invasions. Dont forget the fact that the

Kaby les have the highest concentration of SKIN cancer in Africa. Search it on the NET. This is

inrefutable truth that Berbers alway s have been Black. Even the Northern Ones.

mathilda37 | December 27, 2008 at 10:40 am | Reply

Honey (explains gently ) Europeans called any one with black hair and a heavy tan ‘black’.

‘Brown’ was used to describe Europeans with a tan. We used to call Gy psies black

complexioned right into the 20th century here. Y ou should become more familiar with

how Europeans used the words black, white and brown in describing skin tones. The word

‘black’ only came to be commonly used for black Africans in the 20th century .

There is plenty of artwork from ancient North Africa, and it doesn’t depict black Africans

liv ing there in any kind of numbers. The DNA and skull stuides all show a caucasoid

population in residence for about 30k or more.

shanevella | May 11, 2010 at 11:57 pm |

I read this statement by Stunny Pharouk who happens to be half Egy ptian and half

German, but who was taken as being Black even though his skin is fair. He was treated

badly in Germany because he has wavy hair that goes kinky in the water but goes

Indian if he drinks ascorbics and is VEGAN. He wrote this: “That being so; – our wall

reliefs of Egy ptians depict our ancesters with woolly hair that billows out ower their

shoulders with nubica (nupticals/ twisted curls-knots) at the ends? Albinoism is when

racism decided to keep colour out, and in the Egy ptian and Coptic language a “sitera”

or a sitrey ” is a woman who is a setter, and doesn’t imply racial incest at all. Africans

alway s call their women “sisters” – “Sos- àsat” meaning “hip-sitters” in sexual terms.

The term denotes the Indian word “sutera” meaning “to sow a seed” or to “join with a

stitch” – “to marry with a needle”, which are keen to procreation and are also non-

katalistic unlike genetic sociological incest practiced by Europeans phobic of colour

who read the Tora!” – I think he was “skoffing y ou off!” as he likes to say . Anthropology

is probably an old school of racism. Most people outside of Europe are mixed. Its a

fact. Sexual attraction is more powerful than racism.

luis | December 24, 2008 at 6:25 pm | Reply

Justin thank y ou for y ou kind reply .I live in Spain and I know pretty well the area were

pasiegos live:four small valley s west cantabria.One of the reasons I had to investigate my dna

was that in my family tree (with almost 100 people)starting around i600 and with little

endogamy ,no one had a basque surname.¡Those valley s are less than ten miles from

Vizcay a!Also the area has hundreds of caves,many with prehistric paintings.

Don Blake | December 24, 2008 at 6:50 pm | Reply

The problem with this study is that it tries to claim that the migrants out of Africa that

evolved into N lineages 30,000 y ears ago are somehow Caucasians, even if they only had






just left Africa. Likewise, it goes on to claim that the migrants carry ing U6a who they say

possibly originated in East Africa were Caucasians as well.

First, Caucasian is a reference to a set of Mountains in Southern Russia. It is not a phenoty pe.

Caucasians therefore do not originate in East Africa. And white skin only developed

thousands of y ears after the migrations of humans out of Africa and into the far north of

Europe and Asia. These migrants from East AFrica did not simply turn into white Caucasians

by v irtue of crossing form Africa into Asia. Y et this is the underly ing methodology being

applied in this study , which stresses Caucasia as a basis for human biodiversity , y et

COMPLETELY ignores the fact that all humans originate in Africa and therefore that all

human biodiversity originates in Africa among black Africans. Claiming that North Africans

were indigenous Caucasians is about as illogical as it gets, especially considering that any

back migrations from Eurasia 30,000 y ears ago were of black African derived people.

Putting Caucasian into this only serves to pretend that these original settlers of Eurasia did

not come from Africa, were not the basis of the biodiversity in Eurasia and that these people

were all black for most of their time IN Eurasia up until may be 10-20,000 y ears ago. All of

the regions surrounding Africa would have been initially populated by black Africans, even

after mutations like M and N. M and N do not signify the evolution of white skin, they only

signify random changes in genetic mutations. Try ing to pretend otherwise is simply

dishonest.

mathilda37 | December 27, 2008 at 10:34 am | Reply

The problem with this study is that it tries to claim that the migrants out of Africa that

evolved into N lineages 30,000 years ago are somehow Caucasians even if they only

had just left Africa

Let m e just stop y ou there.

A, I’m not letting y ou repeat that bollocks endlessly , so just give it up and go to

Egy ptsearch. Y ou’d think that not one single anthropologst agrees with the bulllshit y ou

are try ing to spout as gospel here (even the black ones) might clue y ou in to the fact y ou

are incorrect.

B, They hadn’t ‘just left Africa’. LMAO. Where do y ou get y our info? Off the back of a cereal

packet? There are modern human remains at least 7 0K old in China, and signs of

continued modern human occupation in the Far East after the Toba explosion 7 4k ago.

Add on the roughly 15k it would have taken for the population to have expanded to the far

East, and y ou are looking at at least 85K for an OOA exit date and probably older than

100k, as some of the remains in China are looking good for over the 90k date. So a

minimum of 45k plus a founder effect is more than enough to stop them being ‘black

Africans’, which is what y ou seem to be claiming here.

C, The modern human remains from North Africa about the date of the back migration are

so similar to the Paleolithic European ones they used to get called North African Cro




Magnons, and are roughly similar to modern Europeans, if a bit more robust. They are

roughly Caucasoid, if not an exact match for modern Europeans/ North Africans. In fact

there’s a European carv ing called the Brno head y ou should look at, as these people about

26k ago were pretty closely related to the North Africans, and it’s very conspicuosly not

a black looking face.

D, Y et again I see that bullshit about that one mutation turning black people white. DUH,

NO. It only accounts for a third of the difference between lighter African groups like the

San, who can be a very light caramel colour when out of the tropical sun (I know, I’m

related to one). It turned Europeans from a strong tan like the middle Eastern people to

pasty pink, not from black to white.

First, Caucasian is a reference to a set of Mountains in Southern Russia. It is not a

phenotype

Also, y ou seem to think Caucasoid means white. NO. It means Caucasoid, it is a

phenotype, and it includes south Asians like Pakistanis and North Africans. The location it

was originally attached to is meaningless, as the word now refers to a skull shape and

racial grouping.

all human biodiversity originates in Africa among black Africans.

NO, again. Since masses of mutations seen in modern humans don’t have an African origin,

like pale skin and blue ey es for a starter. This is a fallacy often repeated by the ignorant.

In essence, y ou’ve posted a long block of waffle that demonstrates how little y ou know.

The fact that y ou used the word ‘Caucasia’ is quite frankly laughable. The North Africans,

in their ancient art and bones, show themselves to be mainly Caucasoid people.

This comment was only good for one thing, it’s a good example of all the bullshit that

Afrocentrics believe.


NubianMoor, this is exactly because they are not black that Berbers in general (not only

Kaby les) have the highest skin cancer rate under the sunny climate of north Africa!


Luis, y ou’re welcome, that’s alway s a pleasure to exchange with a brother from Iberia.

The Bass | December 28, 2008 at 10:40 am | Reply

The only DNA ev idence we see is U6, which has a patchy distribution in North Africa and isn’t

even the predoiminate mtDNA haplogroup. Cro-Magnons were not Caucasoid and do not






closely resemble any of the modern popuklations in North Africa and Europe. The Euros

have presented no ev idence of “caucasoids” in North Africa since 30,000 y ears ago

C.Bass | December 28, 2008 at 4:44 pm | Reply

Ancient North Africans are *NOT* “Cauacsoids” and the ancient crania are morphologically

distinct from the modern ones, we can have this debate right here and Mr Bass will win.


Since I have specific studies of the bones in North Africa that descibes them as either

Caucasoid or mediterannoid, I’ll pass on that Charlie.


Interesting article found in the Scotsgenealogy website:

http://www.scotsgenealogy .com/

Unfortunately , There is no direct link, so once in the website, just follow these two steps:

– On the left menu click on “On-line Information”

– Then click on the article “OUR ANCIENT COUSINS THE BERBERS”


Cool. thank y ou. I’d heard of the story , but never seen much detail about it.

Far Western Europeans look a fair bit like North Africans. I’m of Welsh ancestry , and when

I pick up even a mild tan I could pass for a Berber woman. We tend to look more

Mediterranean than other Northern Europeans.


Y ou’re absolutely right Mathilda37 . That’s surely due to the post-LGM Iberia spread

Towards the European northwestern parts.

Y ou are a “CeltiBerber” as Luis and me!

Liz Bradshaw | December 31, 2008 at 1:47 am | Reply

Hi – interesting post Matilda, I’ve read a few of y our blogs and alway s found them useful for

my own amataeur research! OK – about the above thread on the Welsh/ancient British and

Berber connection…

From what I’ve been looking at over the past two y ears, it seems to me that the Iberian

refugia of the last glacial peopled a surprisingly diverse number of cultures. As I understand

the Berbers like the Basques and British have a higher percentage of rhesus negative, as well

as startlingly similar phy sical apearences as the lady above states (I saw this too in Crete, I




http://www.scotsgenealogy.com/






have a photograph of a Cretan shepherd who looked as if he’d marched up from the

valley s!LOL) On a side note, I read one genetic report which attested that the main

haplogroups in Crete were from North Africa, I notice on y our illustration of rock art, that

the women closely resemble those of the Minnoans. There is also the question of the X

haplogroup found in the Clov is culture Native Americans like the Ojibwa, I think the

genetisist Steve Jones comments on this, say ing that it is also found in the Welsh. Berber

music too has many correspondences with Irish and Gaelic as Bob Quinn pointed out some

30 y ear ago and has, I see, republished with a seal of approval from Pro. Cuncliffe! Then there

is that tennuous connection to the Saamis way up in the North of Europe! WOW!

I think the consensus these day s is that the term ‘Celt’ is redundant and those of us on the

British Isles have more in common with Spain and possibly the Middle East than the fabled

‘La Tene’ culture. (look too at the megalithic culture which seemed to originate in North

Africa.) I too read that article on Scotsgenealogy and was very surprised by his comparisons

to Gaelic. I have argued with a friend who is more of a Linguist than I, that i believe the

indigenous British languages we call today ‘Celtic’ although Indo-European, have a strong

Afro-Asiatic flavour, as if those who adopted them had spoken another language before, I

believe for instance the sy ntax and grammar in Welsh is similar to Afro-Asiatic. The Amizigh

are a fascinating people, thanks for the info and somewhat ‘lively ’ debate:-)

Liz Bradshaw | December 31, 2008 at 2:05 am | Reply

PS…on a side note – a while back I couldn’t help noticing that the Linear A/B script of the

Minoans bore quite a resemblence to ancient Berber. I can’t beleive no one has spotted this,

may be they have? I get the impression they have been looking towards Greece and further

into Asia, but with the genetic data, surely it’s obv ious where the language origniated – but

hey what do I know? It’s been a while since I was an under-grad!!LOL


Y ep, the Welsh are Atlantic Mediterranoid ty pes. My mothers family are all small, dark and

round faced with a tendencey to tan quickly . The Celtic languages had an Afro Asiatic

language ty pe grammar structure, not an Indo European one. They think Indo European

words were overlaid onto a AA grammar structure when farming arrived(IE seems to spread

with neolithic farmers from northern Turkey ).

Western parts of Britain were repopulated from the Iberian refuge population after the ice

age, which would explain why we and the Basques are a lot alike. There was some population

movement from North Africa into Iberia during the LGM, which could explain the language

similarities.

The Minoans were colonised from Anatolia, but the same population ended up on the North

African coast, so I guess they could all have come from the same root population or even be

Minoan in origin. There’s patchy ev idence that writing is a fair bit older in Southern Europe

than was prev iously thought, so we’ll have to wait to see how this all pans out.





‘Lively debate’… AKA me getting fed up with some very dim people thinking that a couple of

descriptions with the word ‘black’ in them wil suddenly make all the artwork and classical

desciptions and anthropological/DNA studies magically vanish. Y es, I’m getting a bit cranky

with them. They never have any thing intelligent to say .

mathilda37 | January 2, 2009 at 6:32 pm | Reply

Well done NubianMoor, thanks to that little (deleted) race hate rant all y our comments now

by pass the comments sy stem and hit the bin without being seen.

Bite me. All the qualified anthropolgists and DNA studies show modern Berbers haven’t

changed, and y ou never supplied one properly sourced thing that said otherwise.

Dana Rey nolds-Marniche essential argument is that ‘the qualified phsical anthropolgists and

genticists are wrong’, nothing else. She’s a bone fide nutjob. I have hundreds of images of

North africans in their own art and depicted by others, and they don’t show black Africans.

But these things just don’t exist for y ou do they ?

Justin | January 3, 2009 at 7:56 pm | Reply

Y ou will find below a link, which will show y ou some supplementary photos on Amazighs:

Some pictures say often more than many words…

mathilda37 | January 3, 2009 at 8:50 pm | Reply

Very nice, thanks Justin. there’s a new page called the Faces of North Africa y ou might

like.

http://mathildasanthropology blog.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/ev13.png


http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/ev13.png



ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | January 22, 2009 at 8:34 pm | Reply

Original Berbers were clearly Eurasian and white. They bear some similarities to people in

the far south of Portugal, Spain as well as southwest France.

It should be said that some Berber tribes co-opted small percentages of black and mixed race

people (from Mauritania and the Senegal) during the Almoravid invasion of Iberia in the 9th-

10th centuries. Berber tribes, however, continue to be overwhelmingly white, with facial

features consistent with Europeans.

Dana Marniche | January 28, 2009 at 11:49 pm | Reply

Thanks for fighting for y our ancestors people. This lady is obv ious not an anthropologist or

she wouldn’t be bringing up people like Coon who are in fact are not seen as reputable. Her

idea that the Tuareg who still bear their ancient clan names listed by the Greco-Romans, as

newcomers to North Africa speaks for itself. And she is calling me the “nutjob”. By the way

Mezikes (ancient Amazigh) are mentioned in a Roman documents such as “Expositio Totius

Mundi” as “Ethiopians”. My website will be up soon with all the bibliography . As far as photos

go of Amazigh every one should understand that is now the generic name for Berber-

speakers, when in earlier times it is a name for only one Maurusoi group in the area of Tripoli

and Tunis. see Gsell in La Tripolitaine. p 17 if y ou can read French.

mathilda37 | January 29, 2009 at 10:52 am | Reply

Dana…

I only used that Coon reference to point out how someone on Rastawire was misusing a

quote of his to ‘prove’ North Africans were all black. Point out he is out of date to them.

On this blog y ou’ll find masses of very recent DNA studies and anthropological studies and

portriats of ancient North Africans, and pictures of their skulls. They show that Eurasian

ty pe people have been there at least 12,000 y ears, with more input in the Neolithic. The

Tuareg only arrived a few thousand y ears ago, from the Nile area where they were one

population with the Beja, which is recent to me as I’m into the Holocene era.

Make an effort to look at the artwork from Roman and By zantine North Africa, which

doesn’t show a single black face, and neither do the Egy ptian depictions of Liby ans. I

notice on the rastawire pages the art done by North africans of themselves is

conspicuously absent.

Dana, y ou are only familiar with (and then only the bits y ou want to see) what is written in

history books, and that is essentially hearsay , and sometimes third and fourth hand

hearsay . We have their bones, and their DNA, and the art they left depicting themselves.

Once y ou got onto the coast, North africans where white.

As for the crap about European women slaves whitening up North Africa.. Europeans arab

era slaves 1 .5 million, black Africans about 14 million. And the Guanches (all North




http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/the-faces-of-north-africa-from-rock-art-to-the-age-of-the-moors/



African), unmixed with any slave group where only ever described as tanned and blonde,

and were enthuastically married by the Spanish invaders.

Y es y ou did get Ethiopians in North Africa, but further inland around the desert oases, the

same as today . As is observed in classical texts. It’s a very multiethnic place the Sahara.

BTW, Europeans commonly used the word black to refer to a person with black hair and a

tan right into the 20th century , gy psies were often called black. Brown was used to refer to

Northern Europeans with a tan in medieval literature.

There have been black groups in the Sahara too, as shown at Uan Muhuiggiag, but right

next to white groups (theres a very old very white mummy from the same era just a few

miles away from it). But even y our black North Africans have a substantial amount of

Eurasian ancestry in them.

Moroccan berber | February 5, 2009 at 9:14 pm | Reply

thx mathilda

Im Moroccan berber from Rabat capital of Morocco , I’m white with red hair and pharaonic

ey es ! my country are mostly populated by berbers (arbizeds or not arabizeds) but we have

different colors of hair’s (blond-red-dark-brown-..also other strange color like white/blue…)

mostly of my people are white,pal-olive skin also ty pically look like spaniards , I don’t know

why we have this similarity and I know already that spaniard are racists against Moroccans

they occuped two Moroccan cities (ceuta and mellila ,also other Islands like shafarinas

islands and canary islands)

!!!!

finally !

I think berbers are cro-magnons


for example Moroccan women have different by colors hair’s !!!

watched :

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2009/01/21/the-six-thousand-year-old-mummies-from-takarkori-libya/





we are Maliki (muslims) others are jews (toshavim) also called sephardics , my people

converted to some religions for example christianity in ancient souss vally before the arrival

of Islam ,berbers are pagans at first time but until today ,they have some religions,because

my people believe to the second life after the death ,we are believers from ancient time !

Moroccans have build large monuments for y ou to see :

http://cache.v irtualtourist.com/2836888-Tour_Hassan-Rabat.jpg

http://www.casafree.com/modules/xcgal/albums/userpics/38023/Hassan%20II%20Mosq

ue.jpg

http://www.casafree.com/modules/xcgal/albums/userpics/38023/Hassan%20II%20Mosq

ue%202.jpg

I think that the Moroccans have a megalithic culture (Islamic version ) until today !!


thx mathilda

Im Moroccan berber from Rabat capital of Morocco , I’m white with red hair and pharaonic

ey es ! my country are mostly populated by berbers (arbizeds or not arabizeds) but we have

different colors of hair’s (blond-red-dark-brown-..also other strange color like white/blue…)

mostly of my people are white,pal-olive skin also ty pically look like spaniards , I don’t know

why we have this similarity and I know already that spaniard are racists against Moroccans

they occuped two Moroccan cities (ceuta and mellila also other Islands like shafarinas island

and canary island)

!!!!

finally !




I think berbers are cro-magnons

Kiwi Phil | February 10, 2009 at 10:57 am | Reply

Fascinating page! I came here after googling E1b1b1b2 which is the haplogroup my DNA

belongs too. The Berber connection has been puzzling me because my paternal ancestry is

British (with a common Welsh surname). Y et the ev idence suggests affinities with the Atlas

and Iberia. How did those people get to Wales?

I guess we’re still investigating that one and I’ll watch the web with interest. Coincidentally I

spent a few day s in the north Morrocan Rif mountains in 2006 and was struck by the fairly

common incidence of blue ey es and fair skins. At the time, I commented that the ‘Moors’

looked more euro than the Spanish

mathilda37 | February 10, 2009 at 2:06 pm | Reply

North Africans travelled a long distances looking for tin in the bronze age, or y ou could

have a Roman Legionaire as an ancestor-they recruited from all over the empire including

North Africa… Mr Jones.

Excalibur | April 29, 2009 at 6:37 pm | Reply

To Phil Kiwi,Mathias,Antropo et al.

I have a curiosity for the North African ethnics,and their origins,as it’s seemly my

paternal dna ancestry came from that origin.Curiously I have genetic matches that tie me

closer with people from Wales,Algeria,Morocco,Scotland and other Iberian and French

people.Mostly along the Atlantic coast of Europe.

Mrs.Mathilda has speculated that it may be due to the romans or to tin mines prospectors

or traders.

She also estates the origins of these northern cultures extant until today or recent times

was due to a heavy influx of euroasians from the east along the northern african coasts

and immediate inlands bound by the Sahara extension,though smaller at those times.

While all these seems very interesting,and much complex than it looks,many other

questions could be taken from other factors in neighbor areas.Then,as later.

Looking at the presence of a more complex Mt-dna genetic variance that hints at different

ethnic-genesis for the demographic composition of the modern result population in

northern Africa,that is highly unbalanced in proportions to the male genetic result,and

hence, provenience(?),one can’t fail notice the proximity to european coasts longer

occupied perhaps and the presence over them of cultures and female haplogroups also

found later in Africa.

My own Mt-dna,V is very common in the Basque country where my family has been liv ing

since centuries.However,this one also shows in the same line of direction along the

Atlantic coasts of Europe,being the higher frequency found among some Scandinavian

shepherds too,but curiously among some Berber women and other north africans!

The records track get more interesting,because along this Mt-dna traces another one -

supposedly “northafrican”-shows up among the same isolated population minority in






Scandinavia,the Mt-DNA haplogroup U6…!

So,at which time they may have taken the road north in search of metal,legions,or

food,these peoples with more than pastoralism in their veins as common?

or the roads went south,from Scandinavia?

(as some white suprermacists claim,locating Atlantis among Ary ans of that North)

Which way to Rome?

or all roads came from Rome?

ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | February 12, 2009 at 3:37 pm | Reply

Most people have little knowledge of Berbers and just assume they are not white. Of course

what they see in the media are examples of mixed race people who CLAIM to be of Berber

descent.

I for one never believed that native origin Berbers were any thing but North African whites.

The problem is that the Arab invasion in the 5th century (mostly , but not all white), and the

11th century recruitment of negroes from Mauritania and the Senegal to fight in the

Almoravid armies, changed the racial composition of some Moroccan Berber tribes.


Kiwi Phil:

The great majority of the Welsh people is R1b Y -haplogroup and Atlantic Celt haploty pe.

Many people in northern and central Portugal and Spain are R1b and part of the Celtic

haploty pe. The original Celtic ancestors of a most British Isles populations came from Iberia.

For example, the Irish DNA markers match or correlate very closely with northern

Portuguese and Galicians (NW Spain).

As far as y our Berber haplogroup goes, there may well have been Berber elements in Iberia

well prior to the Roman, Germanic and Islamic invasions. Therefore there may have been a

few Iberian Celts who were part Berber.

mathias | February 12, 2009 at 10:22 pm | Reply

ANTHROPOLOGIQUE = AFROCENTRISTS

BERBERS ARE MORE WHITE MORE BLOND than spaniards or italians !!

Berbers are defined as Mediterraneans with moderate Alpinid & Nordic admixture closer to

Europeans than to Arabs or Africans. This is supported by a scientific study done on Rif and

atlas Berbers showing that 38.6% of the Rif ,atlas Berbers have blue or green ey es a

percentage higher than that found in Itlaians or Spaniards ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !








Berbers do have a very high precentage of blonds. The purest berbers, the isolated

Guanches, were described as often blond and blue ey ed by the spanish when the

conquered them. No European slacve ancestors or arab ancestry in them.

Dana | February 15, 2009 at 2:25 am | Reply

Why would y ou put photos of Roman paintings up on y our site and classify them as Mauri is

the true question. Furthermore, y ou keep confusing the people Coon classified as “hamitic

caucaoids” with mesocephalic non African peoples represented in Kaby lia and northern

Morocco. What I am I to respond y ou to Mathilde? and try not to delete this answer. The

Mauri were said to have worn braided curls in their hair and rings in their ears. They are well

described as “black” in color by almost all the Romans and the Greeks, Iranians like and the

Iraqis like Ibn Butlan describe the Ketama who moved down from Numidia, Sanhaja tribes

(who are Lamta Lamtuna tuareg of Niger ) whom Leo Africanus said were also ancient

Numidians still claim descent as blacks. They are otherwise describes simply as “Ethiopians”

as in the Expostio Totius Mundi quoted by S. Gsell in La Tripolitaine where it is applied to the

Mezikes (from which comes the term Amazigh). All those tribes that were calledf Berbers or

Babars in ancient times were described as “blacks and dark brown in color. There is nothing

tan about most Tuareg or Nafusa (of the Zenata ) or Masmuda (the “blacks of Abu Shama and

Chosroes of the 11th and 12th c. A.D. They remain the color they say they were. Don’t

confuse Greeks and Roman with nomads of African and in fact Ethiopic origin. I don’t care

what kind of Caucasoid terminology Coon and his cronies used for them. Gy psies were called

black and kinky haired because many that came into Europe through Spain were just that!

know y our history and don’t confuse it with others!

Quote from 1827 – “The men were very black, with their hair frizzled, the women were the

most ugly and the blackest that were ever seen. .. they had sorceresses amongst them , who

by pretended to look into peoples hands, to tell them what had or would happen to them…”

p. 153 of The Christian journal and Literary Reigster published I 1827 by T & J. Swords?

Photo Arabian gy psies , European gy psies James Michener’s Iberia Spanish Travels and

Reflections 1968.

18?? – “We were not far from Pressburg when at once we heard in the distance, a singing,

shouting and hallooing which continually grew nearer. Presently we met four wagons, in

which a brown company of gy psies were seated. It was a curious sight. Their sat men and

women, girls and boy s all dark as half-negroes, in ragged array , with long shining hair,

smeared after Hungarian fashion with lard…We gazed at them in astonishment…” Wanderings

of a Journey man Tailor through Europe and the East: During the y ears 1824 to 1840

I am sorry y ou are not familiar with the way some gy psies still look in Europe. Just because

many of them have mixded with Europeans doesn’t they were’nt once black as Egy ptians adn

Jats they came from.


LMAO… Dana–please, I deal in science on this site not bullshit. Please read prior comment

about iffy descriptions. Y ou do like to omit the ones that descibe invading moors as being





occasionally blond etc. There’s art from the By zantine era showing white north Africans

too.

Those roman mosaics are not of any one else other than north Africans. Not a single black

face. Please explain why the Egy ptians painted them as white and they themselves painted

themselves as white in the cave art?

Gy psies are originally from India y ou m oron.


Dana… the woman I have shown to be an outright liar elsewhere… ranting on senselessly .

Do me a favour and actually try to quote some paper or DNA study that shows ancient

North Africans to be black.. hint, y ou’ll have a sodding fruitless search.

If y ou really want historical references; Scilax mentions fair liby ans, and at a later date

Procopious speaks of a population with white skin and fair hair. Callimachus also m noted

the fair Liby an women among the inhabitants of Cy renaica. The Egy ptians alway s showed

liby ans with pale skin. The question is why do the Romans when depicting the locals in

those mosaics – and they arelocals , fisherman, servants and slaves- not one is black.

Y ou know all y ou ever do is dig up the few descriptions of North Africans y ou can find that

could be interpreted to mean ‘black’, and y ou steer well clear of any reference to any

publication to do with anthropology as y ou know they alway s disagree with y ou. PLease,

quote a DNA study on ancient bones or a crania study that shows ancient Liby ans to be

any different to the modern.

Gypsies were called black and kinky haired because many that came into

Europe through Spain were just that! know your history and don’t confuse it

with others!

T ake the trouble to read up on the origins of the gy psies – even Wiki has a decent

item on them. They originate from India not Spain. LMAO We have numerous portraits of

them, from olde England, they don’t look even vaguely African and modern gy psies have

zero ancestry that traces to Africa. They diodn’t come from africa v ia spain-where do y ou

get that crap? both Y chromosmes and mitochondiral DNA and their own Indo European

(not African) language shows they came from the Punjab area in the Middle Ages.

Thanks for digging up the descriptions of Gypsies as black though, to prove my point that

black doesn’t mean black African. Very handy ; expect to see that being used by me.

Again, y ou are a moron Dana.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people




Secondly y ou show paintings of Liby ans from the time of Seti which a relatively late period in

the Egy ptian dy nasties. In fact these Liby ans y ou show where the hair sty les and cosutmes of

people who are earlier during the Old kingdom shown only in Brown skin. I was fortunate

enough to study in the Oriental Museum in the University of Chicago where i saw some of

these populations and learned about them. That is why Oric Bates speaks about the

xanthrochroids or fair skinned Liby ans as being late comers. Only dark skinned Lebou

Tjehenou are shown in Old Kingdom paintings. Thus if this is indeed the true color of the

Liby ans of the time of New Kingdom the fact that they are wearing the same accoutrement

and costumes of earlier Woodabe looking people of the Sahara makes it certain they were at

the most mulatto descendants of the early Liby ans or Lebou. Lastly and perhaps most

importantly , there was absolutely no neolithic “white” mummy found in the Sahara. Like the

lancient Egy ptians the skeleton was quite like those of modern Cushitic or semitic speakers of

Ethiopia. Y ou might want to look into Nabta Play a y a Sudanese site where the prototy pe of

the neolithic megaliths of Europe have been found. naturally the neolithic peoples of the

Stone Henge have been classified by Coon as Mediterranean ty pes although Elliot Smith said

they were identical to Somali and Bedja, etc. If y ou are going to keep putting people of

Eurasiatic origin and calling them the true Berbers Moors, Arabs an whatever y ou will need

to explain why their are rarely photos up on y our site of Sanhaja or Ketama, Nafusa (Zenata),

Masmuda, Lamtuna, Goddala and modern Berbers, including the dark brown Kaby les whom

were claimed to be the majority of kanby les in the mid 19th century and who appear in

photographs all of the Egy pt forum blog site.


The Gaunches aren’t pure any thing but descendants of Europeans brought to the area. Aren’t

y ou interested in researching history too?!. Next thing y ou will be say ing is that they are

descenants of Phoenicians like some wishful thing colonialists used to do.


The Guanches showed up as ty pically North Africa for mt DNA – they tested their remains,

they aren’t European. they also make up a large part of the modern Canatries DNA pool.

Also, ty pically Eurasian ancestry shows up in North African bones that are 12k old. Their

arrival predates the birth of Christ in the Canaries.

Y ou are so desperate to make the ancient North African people black.. here’s a hint – find

me some actual science to back that up (not y our carefully cherry picked and usually very

deceptive descriptions that leave out half of the relevant info). No anthropologist will

agree with y ou that before the modern era North africans were any different than they are

now


Mathias:







What y ou say is a bit exaggerated. Y es, there are blond and light ey ed elements in NATIVE

ORIGIN Berbers. Some of that is a result of the original gene pool, no question, but it was

enhanced by the Vandal occupation of North Africa.

The Spanish and Portuguese, in percentage terms, have more light ey es, red and blond hair

than Italians, Greeks, southern French and, y es, Berbers. This is particularly true in the

central and northern regions of the Iberian Peninsula, where Germanics and “nordicized”

Celts (the original Celts were darker, more Alpine) ruled for hundreds of y ears (in the case of

the Celtic tribes, more than a thousand y ears). It is absurd to thinks that all Spaniards are

dark.

I don’t get what y ou are say ing about my being Afrocentric. That is an unfair and unjustified

comment. I am hardly that. In fact, I suspect that the Berbers were one of the earliest settlers

in Europe.


to Anthropologique

Vandals have not colonized Morocco!

y ou must consulted the territory vandals who held just in the sides of the Mediterranean in

northern Tunisia and northren eastern part of algeria

Morocco is a country too remote compared to other countries of North Africa, Arabsand

romans couldn’t invade this country (consult history of Morocco)!

Moors are Berbers 100%! I know they are ty pically Moroccan indigenous too! they resemble

to the old Cromagnons

watched : berbers from MOROCCO

http://i3.y timg.com/bg/zy HB8h-gd3K8K-bONmo2Hg/default.jpg?app=bg&v=4e8bc1

y es, the first Celtic are Berbers from Morocco across the Strait of Gibraltar


to dana

y ou know that there are berber pharaos (ly bian pharaos ) ?!!!

just like Ramses II and sheshonq ,Takelot and more others …..!


http://i3.ytimg.com/bg/zyHB8h-gd3K8K-bONmo2Hg/default.jpg?app=bg&v=4e8bc1





Go get em Mathilda37 …

I am so tired of people spreading misinformation about various and sundry people around

the world. The absolute worst are the afrocentrist ty pes who are clueless about every thing, it

seems. I don’t know, may be by deluding themselves into thinking that every one is black or

part black it makes them feel better about their own identities…Insane!


Dana:

Where do y ou get y our information from, comic books? Bizarre…


Dana, y ou are so full of crap it’s funny .

Y ou’ve also quoted C.Coon and tried to pretend he said ancient Berbers were black- I only

mentioned him because I needed to show y ou were ly ing/stupid. So reign back on the ‘she’s

using a racist source BS’, y ou used him first (Rastawire).

“Lastly and perhaps most importantly, there was absolutely no neolithic “white” mummy

found in the Sahara. “

BULLSHIT






Please refer to link on the white lady mummies from central Liby a .Only a few miles from the

Uan Muhuggiag black mummy . Complete with picture.

http://mathildasanthropology blog.wordpress.com/2009/01/21/the-six-thousand-y ear-

old-mummies-from-takarkori-liby a/

Please feel free to mail me links to other decent images of Liby ans from the Moorish era and

earlier. Not that in the time y ou’ve spammed this blog y ou’ve produced any ev idence at all to

support y ourself. BTW, Tuareg only arrived in North Africa a few thousand y ears ago,

genetically they are East African in origin. Check out the Link to the DNA study done on

them…

The History and Geography of Human Genes

… although Tuareg speak a Berber language, they show a closer genetic

relationship with the Beja. The origin of the Tuareg is not fully understood. They

may have moved to the centre of the Sahara to avoid Arab attacks in the seventh

and eleventh centuries AD, but their earlier whereabouts are not known.

Also, read Golden Age of the Moor properly for a description of their similar customs.

Most of the skulls from the Neolithic Sahara are Mediterranoid Caucasians, only about 25%

are ty pically black.

Italian anthropolologist Sergi established the following proportions of prehistoric

skulls in the Fezzan: 46.6.% of white mediterranean, 26.6% of “Eurafrican

negroized” and 26.6% of Negroes.

Marie-Claude Chamla established that the protohistoric remains of the Sahara

were only about 25% Negro. The mixed type which corresponds to the “Negroized

Eurafrican” type of Sergi was about 20% and “Eurafricans” who were not

negroized represent 41 % of the results.

also.

. …three principal morphological types were discerned by Mme Chamla for the

proto historical period. Twenty five percent of the identifiable remains were

negroid, and these were rare in the Sahara bu preponderant further south. A third

were of a mixed type in which both negroid and non negroid features were found.

the remainder were not negroid in their characteristics, and these were

preponderant in the Sahara but extremely rare further to the south. the same

racial mixture was evident in the Fezzan at the same period; here there was a

preponderance of Mediterranean characteristics and a smaller proportion of

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2009/01/21/the-six-thousand-year-old-mummies-from-takarkori-libya/

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FrwNcwKaUKoC&pg=PA173&lpg=PA173&dq=beja+Tuareg&source=bl&ots=Hk6XSjKHe9&sig=4C82dvjVw3HTIYoGlIPcwcbfq4E&hl=en&ei=SHSlSc8VooeMB7265c8F&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gAC81Tsh2bwC&pg=PA133&lpg=PA133&dq=beja+Tuareg&source=bl&ots=XQc4xM4GEk&sig=UE9cs1aAUaf_KcgbKmM7Hv3d7hQ&hl=en&ei=SHSlSc8VooeMB7265c8F&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result



classical negroids

Y et again, not one single peice of science in any of y our ranting. Y ou are in complete denial

of the DNA studies which show a Eurasian ty pe people in North Africa over 12k ago.

If it wasn’t for the humour value I wouldn’t let y ou post here. Example..

“naturally the neolithic peoples of the Stone Henge have been classified by Coon as

Mediterranean ty pes although Elliot Smith said they were identical to Somali and Bedja,”

Grafton Elliot Smith … born 1871 . LMAO. Believed all megalithic cultures came from Egy pt

or Nubia. Now known to be, well, just plain wrong as older structures are found in Turkey and

central Europe than in Egy pt. LMAO some more.

BTW, Many Southern British are ty pically mediterranoid today , me included. It’s a ty pe of

Caucasoid (white folks to y ou).

The fact y ou claimed Gy psies were African in origin proves y ou are a total moron.

ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | February 27, 2009 at 1:09 am | Reply

Oh y eah, sure, Gy psies originated from black Africa…and purple elephants inhabit the skies.

ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | February 27, 2009 at 1:16 am | Reply

Y es, the Southern British…Most are what is referred to as Q-Celtic and they are descendant

from the original Celts of Iberia. Y es, many Spaniards and Portuguese are tribal kin of the

Welsh, Cornish, Irish and even the Western Scots – the Atlantic Celts. Many of their DNA

markers match or correlate very closely with the populations of Western Iberia, particularly

the North West (Galicia, Asturias in Spain and Minho, Douro and Tras-os-Montes in Portugal.

Small world, isn’t it?


Small world, isn’t it?

Y es it is ANTHROPOLOGIQUE. Whenever I pick up any kind of tan I get mistaken for

Spanish or Italian.

ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | March 4, 2009 at 2:06 pm | Reply

I think what y ou are doing is great, Mathilda…

I am so tired at the lies and gross exaggerations that the Afrocentric looney tunes put out

about race and ethnicity . The White Nationalists are nearly as bad and sometimes just as







ignorant and mendacious as the Afros.

mathilda37 | March 4, 2009 at 2:53 pm | Reply

Well thanks, it;s a nice change from the Afronut hate mail I get.

djilali djaber | March 5, 2009 at 5:08 am | Reply

Sorry Ms Mathilda,I already gave my opinion as a comment about the origin of the berbers

which was opposite to y our point of v iew,I did not know y ou defending a fact ( principle) that

y ou believe and stick on it . I am not an afrocentric ,I am an algerian arab with kaby le blood

from my mother side,I recognize that the berbers of atlas Tellien are whites and the ones

from the south (Touareg) are blacks with some mixture. But based on researchs made by

linguistics scientists as Maurice Delafosse ,

Joseph Greenberg,Theodore Benfey ,Friedrich Muller all of them said that Hamitic language is

afroasitic but y ou, y ou denied it ,I would to know why ? explain?

As an engineer agronomist ,I would not trust any one in the future .

As for hy pothesis wich said most the arabs in the maghreb are of berber origin.This is the

21th century propaganda C’est du bluff.I am originaire of IRAK from arab Djabour arch.


Joseph Greenberg,Theodore Benfey,Friedrich Muller all of them said that Hamitic

language is afroasitic but you, you denied it

No, actually I have a whole entry on the afro asiatic language around here somewhere

which goes into it’s African origins, although this is under dispute from a few sources. The

Berber/Egy ptian/Semetic group (north Afrasian) seem to be Asian in origin, and probably

arrived with the Neolithic from Asia.

As for hypothesis wich said most the arabs in the maghreb are of berber origin.This is the

21th century propaganda

It’s not a hy pothesis. A lot of North African ‘Arabs’ are pretty pissed at finding their

ancestry doesn’t come from the holy land, but they don’t really show much ancestry from

Asia. For the most part North African men’s Y chromsomes are native to North Africa,

whether they be Arab or Berber.


Ms Mathilda Hi !

I saw a documentary in PBS channel in 2001-02 and it showed, on the basis of genetic

analy sis study that the human population started near the horn of Africa and moved

eastward and got div ided into two groups,one continue it journey to what is now called

Australia and the second group get to near minor asia and made a U turn toward

europe.Others moved south where they met a tough environement conditions of africa that


http://mathildasanthropology.wordpress.com/







made them more dark skinsThe document showed also a black tribe in south africa with

genetic link to the jews and they pretended that they are may be the lost israelite tribe.

The host of the show was a white man.

How y ou explain that?


They only have Jewish Y chromsomes- it would be sane to say that a small group of

Jewish men settled in Africa taking Jewish traditions with them. Saw the same thing on TV,

had to do with the Ark of the Covenant.

Don Blake | March 12, 2009 at 11:22 am | Reply

Matilda,

Berber is a language not an ethnic group. The Berber language originated in East Africa

according to Christopher Ehret and Igor Diakonoff. While some may argue for a “Near

Eastern” origin for Berber languages, many still stick to the v iew that it originates in East

Africa.

So the idea that “The Berbers” are defined by Eurasian ancestry is simply nonsense, as Berber

language and culture has no roots in “Eurasia”. Berber language and culture has its roots

completely in Africa. Y es many modern Berber speakers have Eurasian ancestry . But

Eurasian ancestry of some Berber speakers does not mean that Berber language and culture

originates in Eurasia. It does not. Languages are spoken by different ethnic groups with

different ancestries and such ancestry does not prove the origin of a language. However,

linguistic studies in conjunction with genetic and other studies can be useful for clues. But

here is where y ou play loose with the facts, because y our site is filled with claims of ancient

North Africans being “Eurasian” based on all sorts of studies and analy sis, as if to pretend

that these people were white, including ancient “Nubians” and Hausa no less. Any one who

would claim that ancient Hausa, Chadians, Saharans and Northern Sudanese are somehow

Eurasian people is simply not to be taken seriously . Nevertheless, this is the basis of y our

analy sis and the crux of it, which is to prove that ancient North Africans area a Eurasian race,

which means that black Africans are not the true original people of North Africa, which is

inherently false.

So again, as I said earlier, Berber languages are said to be a branch of Afro Asiatic which split

off in East Africa and moved West from around Northern Sudan. Sure, according to y ou,

these were Eurasian people, but I think not.

If the language did not originate there, then what is y our hy pothesis on how it got to Africa,

when and where did it come from and based on what “ev idence”? All y ou have done so far is

to show some pictures of modern white Berbers and imply that this makes Berber an ancient

language from Eurasia, which it does not. It does not matter how long people with white skin

have been in North Africa and I know they have been there for a few thousand y ears, but that





does not mean that white skin and Eurasian ancestry is the basis of Berber languages or

culture in North Africa. This y ou have not shown.

And y our so called “ev idence” of a white mummy is meaningless as it is a corpse. Y ou don’t

simply look at a dried ancient corpse and determine ancestry . It takes scientific analy sis. But

what do y ou expect from an amateur who pretends to be an expert?


because your site is filled with claims of ancient North Africans being “Eurasian” based

on all sorts of studies and analysis, as if to pretend that these people were white,

including ancient “Nubians” and Hausa no less

LMAO. Y et again Don y ou have the reading comprehension of a 5 y ear old. I said the

Hausa had an unusually high level of R1b, which they do. I never said they were white….I

also said the Nubians were pretty much mixde race like Ethiopians in Lower Nubia, not

white. Again, y ou do like to make shit up.

Ehret claims a lot of thing, there are quite a few linguists (three last count) that back an

Asian orign for Afro Asaitic. Ehrets work shows itself to be seriously flawed on many

occassions, particularly in dating.

Berber language and culture has its roots completely in Africa.

Well, technically a large part of the culture arrived from the near East in the neolithic. And

then it was influenced by the Romans and Phoenicians and then the By zantine empire.

Black Africa makes a notable abscence from the history of North Africa in antiquity .

I think not.

I think y ou’ve proved that every time y ou posted a comment here Don.

All you have done so far is to show some pictures of modern white Berbers and imply

that this makes Berber an ancient language from Eurasia

No, I’ve pointed out Ehrets ‘ancient’ dates are ridiculous for AA., and that the age of AA is

probably a better match for the Neolithic, which means an Asain POO is more likely .

Since I previously was all for an African origin for AA and posted articles on

it’s possible route out of Africa, y ou can kiss my arse when y ou claim this is all some

bias my part.

And your so called “evidence” of a white mummy is meaningless as it is a corpse

And y et Afrocentrists (like y ou) insist a single black mummy from Uan Muhuggiag means




all of North Africa was black. Besides that, I have a mass of art from the neothic pastoral in

the Sahara showing very white North Africans, and access to plenty of anthropological

material that describes Neolithic Saharans as mainly EurAfricans or Caucasoid (white to

y ou) with about 25% being black.

And I’ve never pretended to be any thing other than a well informed (and well connected)

amateur keeping track of my research binges.

Don, the only reason I’m allowing to to post this is because I have PMT and

need som eone to shred. Do y ourself a favour, don’t give m e the opportunity

to prove y ou a m oron in public. I don’t like fighting battles of wits with an

unarm ed opponent.

Don Blake | March 12, 2009 at 10:42 pm | Reply

Actually , y ou haven’t proven the “Nubians” to be mixed race. So again, while not claiming

them to be white, now y ou claim they were mixed. The point being that somehow they were

mixed with whites, because of R1b, which is not proven. R1b does not prove white skin or

“race”, which shows that much of y our “analy sis” is based on identify ing “race” in ancient

populations based on all sorts of non anthropological data. Language and genes do not prove

race because race does not exist. And language and genes do not prove skin color either.

I would like to know how black Africa is absent from antiquity ? Where did it go? Were not the

ancient “Nubians” black? Not to mention the predy nastic and dy nastic Egy ptians. But oh

wait, they were all mixed with Eurasian whites who migrated to the Nile Valley 40,000 y ears

ago even though no whites existed 40,000 y ears ago.

And with all y our recent posts of “Asian” agriculture in north Africa y ou still show that the

Nile Valley was completely indigenous. Not to mention y our own article on the “sub

saharan” affinities of early Natufian remains. Seems to me y ou are contradicting y ourself.

And as far as the Liby an mummies go, the only one pretending to be “competing” on what

“race” of mummies they can find in Liby a is y ou. And no amount of try ing to bring up

Afrocentric straw men can change the fact that anthropologists not Afrocentrics called the

Liby an mummy a “black” mummy . It seems y ou feel the need to find a “white” mummy since

y ou are the one who feels that ancient North Africans were so “mixed”. But I guess y ou need

to find something to substantiate y our claims of ‘black’ Africa missing from antiquity . Uan

Muhuggiag was black in antiquity and certainly nobody else missed it. His mommy was most

likely black and so was his daddy . So somehow I don’t see what y ou are calling y our “facts” to

the contrary other than imagining to see a “white” mummy based on absolute non scientific

observation.

Therefore, the only one try ing to make the “race” of ancient North Africans into a

competitions between “whites” and “blacks” seems to be y ou.






Really a glutton for punishement Don aren’t y ou?

even though no whites existed 40,000 years ago.

There were light skinned people 40k, just not quite as pasty as Norther Europeans are-

more an Asian light tan colour, m odern Northern European skin m utations m ake

virtually no difference to North Africans, as y ou seem to think they do. Natufians

are the product of a mixed Eurasian and SSA migration into Israel (24k BP) after the older

back migration date (35k BP) fro Eurasian into Africa. (The OOA date is at least 85k ago

you moron, people were in East Asia 74k ago, they hadn’t ‘just left Africa’ as you like to

think). I never said the Natufians were black or ‘ all African’, it’s unlikley they were any

darker than modern Isarealis after being mixed with Eurasian and then hav ing about 10k

of time to adapt to lower UV levels. ‘Affinities to Africans’ means ‘hav ing some

relationship to Africans’, not ‘the same as Africans’ . Like I said, y ou have the reading

com prehension of a five y ear old.

R1b does not prove white skin or “race”,

The R1b proves a population movement from North (asia) to south along the Nile at the

same time the AA languages appear in the area. I never said these people were other than

black – that was all in y our tiny mind. One good look at a Chadic speaker will tell y ou that’s

an idiot concept- unlike Nubians and Ethiopians who show a lot of Eurasian ancestry in

their skull shapes and the DNA studies. The Ouldeme R1b has been through a lot of

bottlenecks. Not that y ou are smart enough to grasp that- y ou proven y ourself to be a

simpleton on many occasions here.

And with all your recent posts of “Asian” agriculture in north Africa you still show that

the Nile Valley was completely indigenous.

But strangely full of Asian crops and Asian animals. And not, it wasn’t indigenous,

agriculture and animal husbany and Eurasian people entered Africa about 8,000 y ears

ago and brought their Asian crops and animals with them. Y ou also see a few aspects of

their culture in the Nile valley area in predy nastic eras. So the Nile valley was not some

isloated peice of all African purity as as y ou seem to want to desperately believe.

genes do not prove skin color either

Actually , in large scale population studies they are a pretty good guide. If a population

shows mainly Eurasian ancestry - surprise surprise- they look Eurasian and pretty light

skinned. Mixed populations look mixed, with intermediate skin.

Every publishing anthropologist (including Keita) has outrighted stated that dy nastic and

predy nastic Egy ptians are mainly the ancestors of modern Egy ptians- with Keita (y ou

know, the black one) m aking very sure to point out theres been NO



VARIAT ION IN PHENT OYPE in Egy ptians (the interv iew with national Geographic-

look it up here.) No, Black Africans really didn’t play much part in classical Mediterranean

history . The old PD upper Egy ptians were essentially mixed race, with the dy nastic

Egy ptians hav ing mostly Eurasian ancestry (bother to read some of Keitas work properly ,

there was a N to S population movement in the early dy nasties).

It’s not a competition Don.. I’m just hav ing to repeately correct the semi literate

uneducated drivel that y ou keep spouting here and else where. North Africans have been

mainly ‘Eurafrican’ for about the last 10,000 y ears, and before that they were a mixed

race buch called the Mechtoids. Modern North Africans mainly have Eurasian ancestry

that arrived in three waves; in the Paleoithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic.

And the Uan mummy wasn’t a straw man.. y ou guy s keep waving that one black mummy

around and wailing ‘it’s proof they were all black’, but I post one news legitimate news

item on the finding of ‘the oldest mummy in North Africa’ and y ou have a massive hissy

because she’s really obviously not black and it takes away one of y ou main ‘proofs’ that

‘blacks created Egy ptian culture’ if the oldest mummy is white. How dare I show that a

white person was mummified at an earlier date.

BTW, funny that y ou accept that anthropologists can tell when a skull is from a black

person in Africa, but when they all say and they do) that they show ty pically European

skulls and mixed race skulls (along with white looking people in th contemporary rock art)

in the area y ou (agreeing with the DNA studies that show Eurasians in North Africa since

before history ) just wave that little inconvenience aside in y ou quest to ‘prove’ all of

North Africa was black.

mietwagen | March 12, 2009 at 11:09 pm | Reply

Sehr gute Seite. Ich habe es zu den Favoriten.

Don Blake | March 16, 2009 at 12:11 am | Reply

Actually Matilda no anthropologist believes in “race” because there is no such thing. Y es all

humans vary in phenoty pe, but phenoty pe is not race. What y ou mean is skin color and

skulls do not prove skin color, especially of populations thousands of y ears ago in Africa. The

point being that y ou are taking it onto y ourself to define the “races” of ancient remains based

on y our own non scientific lay man point of v iew, using scientific studies and paraphrasing

them as if they were y our own, when they are not. But y ou pretend that because some study

say s something y ou believe proves a “racial” trait among ancient populations, y ou use it. The

point being that most of these studies do not mention “race” at all, only y ou are. Therefore,

y ou are the one try ing to turn this into a discussion of race and the movement of Eurasians in

particular as the epitome of a certain “race”. However, the part y ou keep missing is that

Africans are the source of humanity , not Eurasians. Eurasians are not an ancient “race” to

themselves. Africans are the most ancient form of human on the planet, including Eurasians.

Therefore, try ing to claim that 40,000 y ears ago, Eurasians were like modern white

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/video/player?titleID=1414281487#/?titleID=1414242821&catID=1

http://refruit.com/rsstmp/mietwagen/





Europeans is nonsense. They were not. They were closer to their ancient African forebears

than modern Europeans.

Y es, there have been whites in Northern Africa for a few thousand y ears or more, but they

are not the original North Africans, they did not replace the aboriginal black Africans of

North Africa and no, black Africans were never foreign to North Africa. That is the part that

is simply a nonsense point of v iew pushed by y ou and not proven by any means of the word.

40,000 y ears ago there was no mass migration of Eurasian whites into North Africa which

replaced the black Africans with some “other” non black ty pe. It is again simply y ou try ing to

find a way to take blacks out of North Africa in antiquity .

And the oldest mummy in North Africa is simply a dead body and none of the reports y ou

cited said any thing about the “race” of this corpse. Again, y ou are making up arbitrary

“racial” markers to define the “race” of a corpse, which has nothing absolutely to do with any

science other than y our attempts to take actual scientific studies and twist them to make it

seem that they say things which they don’t.

And here is the article about the oldest mummy found in Egy pt and it say s absolutely nothing

about “race” or skin color. So again, the only one making this into a competition between

white and black is y ou and y ou seem hell bent on fighting a battle of “white” versus “black”,

since it seems that this is the core thrust of so many of y our posts, especially about North

Africa.

http://mathildasanthropology blog.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/oldest-egy ptian-

deliberate-mummification-found/

And again, all of that nonsense about mummies does not change that the Berber language

originated in East Africa, according to many linguists, which has nothing to do with

Afrocentrism. But however it has something to do with y our precious ancient exclusively ,

predominantly white original north Africans and therefore, y ou are against it.


And again, all of that nonsense about mummies does not change that the Berber

language originated in East Africa, according to many linguists, which has nothing to do

with Afrocentrism.

With equally as many placing it Asia, and more in NE Africa. BTW, east Africa is now less

popular than the others, with Asia gaining ground in recent y ears.

As for the mummy , she’s whiter than the Italians examining her, and y ou haven’t read

ALL the texts about them, I have. One was using her as an example of the multi

racial/ethnic Sahara of that era. Not that I mention her apparent race even once.. y ou’re

pissed at the way she looks, not at any thing I ty ped. As I’ve said, y ou have the reading

comprehension of a 5 y ear old.

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/oldest-egyptian-deliberate-mummification-found/




As for the oldest Egy ptian mummification.. race was not mentioned there either; it was

just a mummy found. It seems that y ou are the one with a bug up their ass about prov ing

race, not me. And actually , on the ‘is there any such thing as race’ issue, when asked, most

phy sical anthropologists said ‘y es there is’ when polled a few y ears ago- there’s a study out

there- and so do biologists and about 50% of geneticists. Even the ones that just support

‘clinal variation’ will tell y ou it is totally possible to figure out the popuation affinities of a

skeleton pretty accurately , and from its DNA.

BTW, Cavalli Sforza on Berbers.

Berbers are located primarily in the northern regions of Algeria and Morocco,

but somewhat to the interior, usually not far from the sea. . Berbers are

believed to have their ancestors among Capsian Mesolithics and their Neolithic

descendants, possibly with genetic contributions from the important Neolithic

migrations from the Near East. It is reasonable to hypothesize that the Berber

(Afro-Asiatic) language was introduced by the Neolithic farmers

So… not an Ethiopian origin then.

Y ou must be a masochist Don, I’ve never seen someone so keen to get his arse kicked on a

daily basis.

black Africans were never foreign to North Africa.

Just the coastal areas from about 10k ago.. I’ve never said otherwise y ou idiot. But then

y ou’ve proved on multiple occasions y ou don’t understand half of what y ou read.

Therefore, trying to claim that 40,000 years ago, Eurasians were like modern white

Europeans is nonsense. They were not. They were closer to their ancient African

forebears than modern Europeans.

It seems massively important to y ou that this is true.. it isn’t. Read some anthropology

papers or books. Asians of that era get described as ‘proto Caucasoid’, they weren’t even

remotely like modern black Africans. The first ty pically Caucasoid skull is about 30k old

from Eastern Europe. Humans had been out of Africa a long time by that point, and

although not ty pically Caucasiod, the Eurasians had roughly the same kind of crania shape

they do today , but with heav ier brow ridges, bigger faces and cheekbones. I have an image

of an early European from about 26k ago.. notably not African looking. And modern skin

mutations make very little difference to any one’s skin colour except northern Europeans..

Even very Southern Africans have a lightish golden tan skin colour, not black. Since

humans had been in Asia at least 45k prior, there’s no reason to think they had any thing

other than light Asian tan skin for a very long time. See link for what someone without

modern skin lightening mutations looks like- Africans can reach Arabian skin tones with

no new mutations needed in just a few thousand y ears . Y ou can chuck as many tantrums

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/09/05/ancient-carved-ivory-portrait-of-a-cro-magnon-man/

http://theforgottenintl.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Copy_of_Tibetan_girl.303132026_std.jpg



as y ou like, but Europe was not colonised by a black group ‘straight from Africa’, all the

ev idence suggests a long time OOA before this happened. CS places the separation date

(probably in N Africa) at 146k, most fossil remains indicate about 120k ish for OOA, so

say ing that the colonists of Europe were ‘black Africans’ is laughable, as they hadn’t been

for tens of thousands of y ears.

Another one here. The art from that era uniformly shows straight hair. Also seen sticking

out from this ones hat. and this ones.

Dana Marniche | March 17, 2009 at 4:28 am | Reply

Why in God’s black earth would I try to make modern Berber-speakers like the whiter

Kaby les whose dna proves they are in fact Greek and southern Europeans with the African

Tuareg and other true Berbers, whose dna shows them to have close affiliation to east

Africans. I think y ou’ve been reading too much National Geographic. If i lied any where feel

free to email me directly , and let me know the facts. Like I’ve said prevsiously the archeology

of the Kaby le region, their blood ty pes palm prints and culture links them to Greeks and not

Berbers and certainly not the Moors of any sort.


They have shown what earlier physical anthropologists have shown. That they were

closely affiliated with and in fact indistinguishable from the cranial and skeletons of

those of modern Ethiopians.

Hilariously wrong. Try reading ‘Clines and clusters’ the Brace paperwhere he concludes

there no hint of Sub Sharan in the dy nastic Egy ptian population.

In this, our analysis simply reinforces the findings of other recent studies

(Adams, 1967 ,1977; Berry et al., 1967; Carlson and Van Gerven, 1977 , 1979;

Greene, 1966; Keita, 1990; Van Gerven, 1982). Al- though it was cast in a

somewhat patronizingly “sociobiologistic” fashion, this was clearly the

message of the English Egyptologist Sir E. A. Wallis Budge when he noted that,

although the “physical and mental characteristics of the original Egyp- tians

were modified temporarily as a result of intermarriage with their conquerors, .

. . no am ount of alien blood has so far succeeded in destroying the

fundam ental characteristics, both physical and m ental, of the

‘dweller of the Nile m ud,’ i.e. the

fellgh, or tiller of the ground, who is today what he has ever been”

The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more

closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they

show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and,

more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa,

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/26000-year-old-face-carved-in-mammoth-ivory/

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/venus-hat.jpg

http://www.donsmaps.com/clickphotos/aylahead2.jpg





Thus prov ing y ou be full of crap y et again.

Dana y ou show a totall lack of familiarity with Braces and any other authors work; they ’ve

concluded that modern Egy ptians are essentially the same as ancient, which is why y ou

never see them actually quoted in any of y our stuff. And only the Southern most

predy nastic Egy ptian show up like any black population- and they come to the ones who

are more or less mixed race- which is the conlusion y ou get with these studies for the

Badarians-mixed race (same as modern upper Egy ptians BTW). Lower Egy ptians show up

as ty pically caucasoid people in every way . BT W, m odern Egy ptians have m ainly Y

chrom som es specific to Africa.. how did they m agically change appearance

then?

And no, the M81 (Berber) Y chrom osom e shows absolutely no affinity to any

Ethiopian population. It’s derived from a migration into North Africa of a mixed race

people dating about 24k ago, all the migrations into North Africa since that point have

been from the near East, and the crania are ty pically mediterranian from about 10k BP on

in coastal north Africa, and so is the DNA. T he Berbers do not com e from Ethiopia

bonehead, the bulk of their ancestry is Eurasian, and has been for the last 10k or

so,, not that I’d expect y ou to grasp the comlpex population movement across

nOrthAfrica since the Pleistocene.. y ou though gy psies were African in origin for pities

sake…LMAO

Like I’ve said prevsiously the archeology of the Kabyle region, their blood types palm

prints and culture links them to Greeks and not Berbers and certainly not the Moors of

any sort.

Funny how the kaby le mt DNA is exactly the same as the specimens from North Africa

dated to 12k ago. Y ou are so full of crap. And no I’m not emailing y ou so y ou can get my

email address.

No one that knows African history, linguistics or anthropology and the many depictions

of Moorish Arabs and Moors in early Europe will ever take you seriously

LMAO.. all the genetics papers and history papers I’ve ever read desccribe ancient North

Africans as a mainly white people. Read the Cavalli Sforza books (the worlds No 1 pop

geneticist) where he describes Eurasian white north Africans as being present in North

Africa since the Caspian, and the Tuareg as relatively recent appearacen in NW Africa. He

includes Berbers in the Eurasian Cucasoid groups, see the diagram s here.

Berbers are located prim arily in the northern regions of Algeria and

Morocco, but som ewhat to the interior, usually not far from the sea.

. Berbers are believed to have their ancestors am ong Caspsian

Mesolithics and their Neolithic decendants, possibly with genetic

contributions from the im portant Neolithic m igrations from the

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FrwNcwKaUKoC&pg=PA78&lpg=PA78&dq=cavalli+sforza+berbers+Asians,+Iranians,+Europeans&source=bl&ots=Hk6ZPlFCaa&sig=N9yq9KMRSauGaDCd8aFh8ZQtZrM&hl=en&ei=ZZ2_SYLsNeCGjAfckZws&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA78,M1



Near East. It is reasonable to hypothesize that the Berber

(AfroAsiatic) language was introduces by the Neolithic farm ers

Funnily enpugh, an exact m atch for the views in m y blog and the opposits of

y our BS.T he fact is that y ou can’t quote any scientific to study that say s what

y ou want.. YET AGAIN… Please read the book y ou really need to.

Dana Marniche | March 17, 2009 at 4:40 am | Reply

Y ou have distorted every thing that y ou have ever read. And in fact the homogeneity of the

skeletons of ancient Egy ptians stopped dead at the Ptolemaic period. We know that from the

studies of Brace, Armelagos, Batrawi and others who have done studies on the genetic related

traits of crania and dentition along the Nile. They have shown what earlier phy sical

anthropologists have shown. That they were closely affiliated with and in fact

indistinguishable from the cranial and skeletons of those of modern Ethiopians. The same can

be said of ancient Saharans, Arabians and most of the Neolithic and Mesolithic North

Africans.

No one that knows African history , linguistics or anthropology and the many depictions of

Moorish Arabs and Moors in early Europe will ever take y ou seriously because y ou have

even misinterpreted the genetic assertions of European scholars. African history isn’t about

nationalisms whether Zionist, Euromediterranean, African or European. Y our name calling

will also not change the bones of Neolithic Europeans and most ancient North Africans, nor

the fact that the early megalithic site found in of Nabta Play a in Sudan was the prototy pe of

the megalithic sites found in the British Isles – Nabta Play a dating from over a thousand

y ears earlier.


Dear Mathilda37 :

Y ou have the patience of a saint. Y ou deal so effectively with these brainless dopes.

It is truly amazing how insecure some people of color can be. Afrocentrism is just another

word for the grossly ignorant ty pes try ing to re-write history and the findings of phy sical

anthropology and genetics.


Y ou have the patience of a saint

That will come as news to Mr Mathilda.

I’m going to have ban Dana and Don… It just makes me look nasty when I shred them like

idiots. They do come out with some world class bullshit.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FrwNcwKaUKoC&pg=PA173&lpg=PA173&dq=cavalli+sforza+Tuareg+Beja&source=bl&ots=Hk6ZPlEDbc&sig=Lox3T5GH3e2uwCJoSIhYctHI7Dk&hl=en&ei=7Zm_ScyOKOTGjAfsicEo&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA172,M1







Dana, Don, while this has been am using..

Dana.. until y ou manage to pull a piece of a respectable published work that supports

y our POV (good luck with that) out of y our ass – something y ou’ve failed to do aby smally

despite a dozen opportunites – y ou won’t be getting any more comments on here. All y ou

ever do is prove to the world how little y ou know (African gypsies!!!), and I’m getting a bit

tired of pointing out how ignorant y ou are. Should y ou manage to find something non-

inane and supported, it’ll be allowed through… I won’t hold my breath though…

Don, y our lack of reading comprehension would put y ou in the retarded group in a

Downs’s sy ndrome school, and y our knowledge of anthropology appears to rival Dana’s

for ‘the most ignorant’ title. The same thing for Dana goes for y ou.. until y ou mange to post

something with published work to back it up, y ou can naff of. I’ve given y ou plenty of

opportunities to say something intelligent, and y ou’ve failed every time.

Doesn’t the fact that y ou can’t find any published m aterial but I can find

plenty , at least give y ou pause for thought?


TOUCHE’, Mathi…:-)))


BTW, I was born in Alto-Minho Portugal, once part of Gallaecia. I am an original Celt on both

sides. I traced my roots back a thousand y ears. All my R1b markers on my father’s side

match the dominant DNA trend found in southern and western Ireland and there are some

matches with the Welsh on my mother’s side. Since y ou are Welsh, I consider y ou a tribal

kin…:-))

mathias | March 18, 2009 at 6:41 pm | Reply

see it Dana !!

MOROCCAN MOORISH MEN !







Andy Jones | March 18, 2009 at 7:41 pm | Reply

So let me get this straight, the first “Berbers” in the coasts of North Africa did not speak

Berber and it was introduced to them by “Neolithic farmers”? Then why are y ou calling them

Berbers then? Seems to me that the first Berbers would be the people who first spoke the

Berber languages. That is why using Calli Sforza, who is a geneticist, to speak on the history of

a language doesn’t make any sense to me.

And, if y ou read the book y ou referenced, he makes very further claims about the Berber

languages which do not make sense. He claims the Tuaregs are not Berbers but they speak an

ancient form of the Berber language. But again, if Berber identity is based around language,

not genetics, then this doesn’t make any sense. So because the Tuaregs are genetically closer

to the Beja and East Africans, Mr Sforza, who seems to want to identify Berbers based on

genetics, omits Tuaregs from being Berber, simply because he uses genes as the basis of

Berber identification, when in reality it is based on language and culture. Therefore, the

v iews of Mr. Sforza are skewed and do not really address the identity of Berbers as a linguistic

group, as opposed to try ing to identify Berbers based on genetics.

The funny point is that nobody , not from this site, nor Mr Sforza, would have the courage to

tell Tuaregs to their faces that they are not real Berbers. This is simply the kind of nonsense

stuff written for people outside of Africa who have no knowledge of or contact with the

Africans in question, which is precisely why such nonsense should be questioned.

So the fundamental question is whether we are talking Berber as a language or Berber as a

gene?

Justin | March 18, 2009 at 9:10 pm | Reply

I was born in Alto-Minhoo Portugal too & I’m a real CeltiBerber. Markers in my family (both





sides) :

y DNA: R1b1b2/E1b1b1b2

mtDNA: H/H1

Long live the variety !

mathilda37 | March 19, 2009 at 9:44 am | Reply

So let me get this straight, the first “Berbers” in the coasts of North Africa did not speak

Berber and it was introduced to them by “Neolithic farmers”?

Quite possibly . No language family dates to over 10k old , and the spread of Afro Asiatic

languages matches the dates of the Neolithic expansion.And Berber is a pretty recent name

fo these people, and not one they use themselves.

Tuaregs are thought to have arrived a few thousand y ears ago and adopted Berber languages.

Genetically they don’t show much time in NW Africa. They ’re ‘real berbers’ if y ou take being

being Berber as cultural.

THAQVAYLITH | March 19, 2009 at 1:55 pm | Reply

“Faces of Morrocco” ? Are y ou kidding ? These are not morrocan !

The girl in bottom left is Kaby l. It’s berber algerian. This picture was taken while “the black

spring” in 2001, in Kaby lia.

No way between her and the makhzen morrocco. Amazigh, berber, algerian, but NOT

morrocan.

And i’m sure there is other faces that are from algeria.

Be serious


Faces of Morrocco” ? Are you kidding ? These are not morrocan !

The girl in bottom left is Kabyl. It’s berber algerian. This picture was taken while “the

black spring” in 2001, in Kabylia

Where did I say ‘faces of Morocco?’

THAQVAYLITH | March 19, 2009 at 2:01 pm | Reply

As an exemple, the third picture from bottom left.

The lady is wearing jewels ty pically from kaby l amazigh (algeria)

As an amazir of algeria, i’m really disappointed to see my culture is being mixed up with

“Morroco”, still i have no link with this state.

These are amazir ou amaziGH faces (amazigh of algeria and morrocco are brothers), BUT NOT







“morrocan” faces.


All of North Africa is essentially ‘non Arab’ , and there’s not much genetic difference

between the two. This page isn’t about Morocco, it’s about North Africans ion general

really .


Hi Mathilda:

BTW, my latest post was meant for y ou. Sorry , I forgot to put y our name on it.


Justin:

My understanding is that there are Berber markers as far north as Norway …Amazing!

mathias | March 19, 2009 at 7:51 pm | Reply

Moroccan faces !!!

hot hot beauty !!! I

Justin | March 19, 2009 at 7:56 pm | Reply

ANTHROPOLOGIQUE :




Y ou’re right & my closest E1b1b1b2 genetic matches are from USA (with British roots),

Scotland & England!

“Amazigh” indeed.


Mathilda:

Quite possibly . No language family dates to over 10k old , and the spread of Afro Asiatic

languages matches the dates of the Neolithic expansion.And Berber is a pretty recent name

fo these people, and not one they use themselves.

So how old is the Berber language then and where is the oldest ev idence for it? I do not think

the origin of Berber languages is the same as the original spread of Afro Asiatic, that would

make the Berber language over 10,000 y ears old. And it still seems odd to label someone

based on identity that they don’t use, theoretically defined by a language that did not exist,

and on top of that using genetics and not linguistic studies and history . At best it is

misleading and at worst it is dishonest.


I did a little reading into Berber langauges.. they seem to have seperated from Egy ptian

and Semtiic in the Neolithic, but the last spread from a common dialect was less than

about 2k ago, as there are lots of words for camels and they dont'; appear till around the

birth of Christ in NW Africa. The Guanches spoke a Berber related language, they left for

the Canaries about 3k ago.

And it still seems odd to label someone based on identity that they don’t use,

theoretically defined by a language that did not exist, and on top of that using genetics

and not linguistic studies and history.

The difference between ethnicity and ancestry . Tuareg are ethnically Berber, but

ancestrallly they have an origin in the South of Egy pt/North of Sudan. Before Arabic

berber was the common language of North Africa, it’s probably why they adopted it.

THAQVAYLITH | March 20, 2009 at 12:21 am | Reply

Lol.

Thank y ou Mathilda

Y ou do not say faces of Morocco right now


Never let it be said I won’t take criticism








Am used:

Dana sweety ; I don’t ‘take comments off’, they don’t get posted at all unless I permit it. Y et

again another abusive rant ( disallowed) where y ou fail to pull any ev idence out of y our arse.

I called y ou a moron before for a very good reason (African gy psies!). Please refer to the

prior tirades of y ours where y ou insist on calling me a liar as an ice breaker before y ou act

outraged for hav ing y our rather epic ignorance pointed out to y ou

As for the coins of Hannibal.. They are North African coins representing a north African-

what exactly was y our point? So far all the artwork from the north coast relentlessly shows

brunette white people from the neolithic on- including the By zantine art just prior to the

Islamic invasion.

To date y ou haven’t supplied one image from ancient North Africa showing a black African or

any quoted publication to support y ou- despite repeated requests. All y ou do is spout quite

litigious abuse.

Since I have posted direct quotes from a number of anthropologists and geneticists who

directly disgree in their own words with y our ‘beliefs’, I’d like to point out to the world in

general that I’m not making this up; I’m just quoting.

As I have said before..find images or actual publications to back y ou up. Y our deranged

ramblings are not comment-worthy .


Mathilda:

“I did a little reading into Berber langauges.. they seem to have seperated from Egy ptian and

Semtiic in the Neolithic, but the last spread from a common dialect was less than about 2k

ago, as there are lots of words for camels and they dont’; appear till around the birth of Christ

in NW Africa. The Guanches spoke a Berber related language, they left for the Canaries about

3k ago.”

Based on that reply and other information from elsewhere it would seem that the Berber

language is about 3-4 thousand y ears old. That would mean that the spread of U6, whether

we call them “Eurasian” or otherwise, has nothing to do with the origin of Berber as a

language. The origin of U6 predates the development of Afro Asiatic by tens of thousands of

y ears. Which again why I disagree with try ing to equate Berber as a language or culture with

a genetic lineage. The two are totally different things. All Berber populations have vary ing

genetic lineages, some more “Eurasian” and some more “African”, but none of that say s

any thing about where and or how a particular language originated. Most of the studies

prov ided treat the Eurasian lineages as a group including U,K,N and J, with U6 being a





relatively small percentage of all lineages in most Berber speaking populations. Considering

that all of these lineages reflect a complex history of migration and interaction, it is

impossible to tie any of them to the spread of Berber as a language, especially something like

U6 which is 45 -50 thousand y ears old and definitely out of the question as a marker for the

origin of Berber languages. Also, the 3-4ky age of Berber languages also makes them much

y ounger than the spread of the Neolithic in North Africa, which took place between 10ky and

6ky .


Last time I checked Berber was worked out to have separated fom proto Ery thraic (proto

Berber,/Egy ptian/Semitic) about 8k or so by glottochronology - its a neolithic language.

The 2k date is the last ‘node’, or last dialect that came to dominate it. The Guanches would

have left before that. Before that they ’d have spoken an older Berber dialect, not a non

Berber language.

Generally when I use Berber I mean indigenous North Africans in general. I know a lot

have Arab ethnic identity , but their DNA say s other wise- they are mainly native north

africans under the skin. IAnd never associated the spread of U6 to Berber languages (way

too old).

From what I can gather, the DNA traces of language expansions can be pretty ghostly .

Some Eurasian population migrated into Africa into the neolithic bringing farming. The

Berber languages (IMO and a few others) seems to date to that. Who is a modern ethnic

Berber has a lot more to do with who’s ancestors din’t Arabize. The North Africans who

didn’t got called Barbarians (Berbers). The Tuareg are Berbers ethnically but not

genetically North African.


Y es, proto Ery thraic is mentioned by Authors such as Blench. However, he puts the

homeland of such a split between Berber, Egy ptian and Semitic at somewhere between the

Nile and Red Sea. He also puts the original extent of Berber Languages as being from the

Upper Nile clear across to Mauritania and Niger. And given that he feels that AfroAsiatic

spread North from Ethiopia, he considers AfroAsiatic primarily an African language. Again,

given that AfroAsiatic and Berber are languages and because the region where the Tuareg

lineages originate is also in the same area where some linguists postulate that Berber

originally split from Egy ptian and Semitic, it does not make sense to make a distinction for

the Tuareg as less Berber than others based on genetic lineage, when the history and spread

of a language does not necessarily correlate with lineage and to this point nobody has clearly

defined any genetic lineage that indicates the origin and spread of a single language. While it

is definitely true that some Berbers have a large degree of Eurasian ancestry , it is not

necessarily true that Eurasian ancestry defines or indicates the origin of or defines what is

considered Berber, which is a language and culture not a genoty pe.





Blench’s book is here:

http://books.google.com/books?

id=esFy 3Po57 A8C&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=proto+Ery thraic&source=bl&ots=6eNT2GX

Wvy &sig=ZPkQb7 3x1UUkpHXBdOa0z1tQPdg&hl=en&ei=I4fGSeK_BdGEtwep9eHHCg&sa=X&

oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result


I’ve read a fair bit of Blench, but thanks for the link. Every tree I’ve seen I’ve seen for AA

languages has Berber, Semitic and Egy ptian as a little group together. I’ve seen two

linguists put AA languages as Asiatic in origin. I have to say the population movements,

dates and DNA seem to agree with them more which is probably why Cavalli Sforza takes

the same v iew I do. As I’ve said on this blog; the calibrated ages for AA language exactly

match an origin in Asia spreading into N Africa. Not to mention that Militarev managed to

reconstruct plenty of words for goats and sheep, which just don’t turn in up Africa until

the Neolithic (they are only wild in Asia) and others that suggest a neolithic

farming/pastoralist era instead of a hunter gatherer time frame.

The Tuareg arrive in North Africa until long after the date for proto Berbers seperation

(about 3,000 y ears after), so attaching it to them won’t work. They also don’t have any

relationship to Egy ptians and theres absolutely no way to explain how they could have a

close relationship to Asaitic Semitic. T here is no way Sem itic is African in origin.

There’s no movement out of Africa within a relavant time frame- culturally or genetically .

The main reason for me pointing out that Tuareg are not ‘the real Berbers’ here is that I get

endlessly spammed by Afrocentrists desperate to believe the Moors and Egy ptians were

black, so they insist All the other Berber tribes are the descendants of slaves (see Dana

above) and that Tuareg are the only real Bebers. I’m just pointing out that their

appearance in North Africa is pretty recent (within historical eras) not ancient proto

Berber eras. They had nothing to do with the Berber langauge’s spread, they still show

strong cultural similarities to the East African Beja. The Beja speak Cushitic.. if the Tuareg

would have brought any language with them it would have derived from Cushitic. Berber

doesn’t have any close relationship to Cushitic.


Actually I wasn’t referring to Afrocentrics at all. I was talking about Blench. Blench claims an

African origin for Afro Asiatic, as does Ehret. Y es, other people claim that AA originates in

“Asia” but in all reality they aren’t talking about “Asia” as opposed to the Levant. And, in

terms of Blench any way , the grouping of Egy ptian, Berber and Semitic are grouped as African

by Blench. And he openly admits that there is a “debate” among linguists about whether AA

or Semitic originates in Asia or Africa, but none of these people are Afrocentrics in any sense

of the term. Whatever “Afrocentrics” say has nothing to do with this as this is purely a

linguistic and cultural issue. Y es, genes are part of the puzzle, but genes do not tell the whole

story .

As for the Tuaregs, y es they are related to the Beja and Blench does speak on the differences

http://books.google.com/books?id=esFy3Po57A8C&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=proto+Erythraic&source=bl&ots=6eNT2GXWvy&sig=ZPkQb73x1UUkpHXBdOa0z1tQPdg&hl=en&ei=I4fGSeK_BdGEtwep9eHHCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result





and relationship to Berber. But the point I am making is that at least Blench and may be even

Ehret put the origin of Berber in the Nile Valley . The debate over the origins of Afro Asiatic

aside, the point is that Berber is not as old as Afro Asiatic, neither is Egy ptian and neither is

Semitic. Therefore, when I speak of Berber I want to keep focus on the dates of when Berber

as a language originated and from where. Which is why I refer to the linguists, like Blench and

others. And some definitely put the origin and or split of Berber into the area of the Nile

Valley . And I have seen no linguist who posits that proto-Berber originates 7 ,000 y ears ago.

If y ou mean the branching of Northern Semitic from proto-Ery thraic, then again Blench puts

that squarely into the Nile Valley and Red Sea areas. But this branch was not Berber it was a

common ancestor of Egy ptian and Berber and Semitic that split off 7 ,000 y ears ago

according to Blench. That is not Berber.

The Tuareg are partially descended from peoples in East Africa 3,000 y ears ago, but they are

also descended from the inhabitants of the Sahara in the Neolithic as well. The 3,000 y ear

date for “the Tuareg” is simply a reference to a specific cultural/linguistic package. There

have been multiple movements of Africans from the Sahara to the Nile and back over the last

50,000 y ears and that is simply the latest of a long series of such movements.

Any way , whether or not y ou believe in the “Eurasian” origin origin of AfroAsiatic or Semitic,

that is fine. The point I am making is that all scholars do not agree on this v iew and the debate

that goes on about it is not simply an Afrocentric debate. There are many reasons for

believ ing one way or another and it isn’t for y ou to pretend that because y ou want to believe

one group of linguists/anthropologists, that this makes the v iews of other

linguists/anthropologists any less valid.

Here is another reference that puts proto Berber as breaking off from proto-Ery thraic about

6,000 y ears ago. Note, this author puts proto-Ery thraic languages squarely in the Nile

Valley and Ethiopian highlands and not “Eurasia”. This also shows the tree, with Cushitic

being an earlier branch off of proto-North Ery thraic. This book also has an extensive

discussion on the relationships of “loan words” for cattle and sheep between the various

families of languages in this tree.

http://books.google.com/books?

id=C7 XhcY oFxaQC&pg=PA291&lpg=PA291&dq=proto+Ery thraic&source=bl&ots=eVFwaX

n6Bo&sig=CRIJ6zqpe47 LxmEk4E09NiLfXpk&hl=en&ei=I4fGSeK_BdGEtwep9eHHCg&sa=X&

oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA291,M1

The point being that some things stated here are an oversimplification of the complexity of

linguistic studies and genetics.


The berbers don’t appear to have changed much in the last 12000 y ears.

Ms Mathilda it is controversial,y ou wrote to me that most of arabs speaking in the maghreb

http://books.google.com/books?id=C7XhcYoFxaQC&pg=PA291&lpg=PA291&dq=proto+Erythraic&source=bl&ots=eVFwaXn6Bo&sig=CRIJ6zqpe47LxmEk4E09NiLfXpk&hl=en&ei=I4fGSeK_BdGEtwep9eHHCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA291,M1





are in facts berbers of origin. Suppose,it is true that’s mean they embrace fully the culture of

the invaders specially their new faith( Islam) without compulsion and by consequent full

intermariage(e.g : my father is Arab ,my mother is kaby le, My niece is Arab,her husband is

kaby le). As a fact,during all this time from the 8th to 21th century ,y ou think nothing changed

?

Just to remind y ou,the amazigh language of today has 35% of arabic lexica. I love listen

to Kaby le music even though I do not speak berber .It is a part of my culture and I enjoy

because of this link.

To the rivals of opnion: we all belong to one humans ancestor known as Adam peace upon

Him through Noah and sons: Sam,Ham…


A Y chr study showed North African Arabs and Berbers to have the same y chromosome

make up.. mainly North West African. the population were converted not massacred, as

Islam requires.

malika | April 1, 2009 at 6:50 pm | Reply

Arabic in the African north are not many they are rather div ided into family , because to be

clear amazighs cut their relation with the east and its authority for the y ear 7 89 Christian

The Arabic historians hide us a lot of information I do not know why !!!!! Especially on beni

hilal small tribe which invaded a part of ly bie and Tunis This tribe was sent by king fatimide of

Egy pt to take revenge for tribes Tunis which left the shite for the sunite

Then where is the problem? Arabic say that these tribes steered on all the north of Africa

!!!!hehehe And that they are many is they who arabized amazigh ( berbers ) The Arabic

historians reveal only this part(party ) of the history (story ) and the most interesting hiding

place y es y es The lies of Arabic The reality it is because the tribes of Tunis have were

disturbed by the beni hilal which steal them plunder are in hiding to them And they asked for

Abu Y usuf Y a’qub al-Mansur ‘s help(assistant) Berber king of Morocco Algiers and Moslem

Spain,Which(Who) has terminated this tribe of beni hilal in the couppant in small groups in

every region of the African north checked(controlled) by big tribes Berber as zennate …for

the arabisation it is Berbers which chose to be arabisé and every berber dy nasty encouraged

the arabisation as almorav ide and zennete

For the Berber language it is very difficult to speak about this language(tongue)

I am Berber and I know very well my language(tongue) and I can give my point of v iew, I

remember my self my first ones lessons of English I was surprised on the resemblance

between some word berbers and English even if they have no same sense(direction) !!!

And also for the qopt language(tongue) of egy pte the former(ancient) language(tongue) of

the Pharaohs

I also noticed that there are two words in English the same sense(direction) bite have the

same meaning in berber for bii’tte to us y ou and y es of it berbers it is y ah

This language(tongue) deserves to be studied

thank y ou mathildas for y our research and from articles and y our effort






THANK Y OU MATHILDAS for y our searches it is very rich ,,,I completely agree with y ou, I

am Berber and I can make y ou useful ,,The analy ses of is very correct without any faults the

North African are alway s berbers but arabized they do not know him(it) ,,I think that there is

a fault, it is can be the Arabic historians treated(manipulated) our history (story ) in 19th

century ,,,Because a lot of people ignores some event since the Islamic conquest

–In the first place the Arabic invaders were helped by Egy ptians and Berber tribes Islamized

without war

–Then the authority of Arabic did not last very for a long time, because Berber Islamized by

strength were revolutionized several times They freed(cleared) Arabic especially in regions

of morroco and Algers and the South of Tunis and the ly bie Because the Berber were not in

agreement with Arabic which exceeded the limits

— The Islamic part of the dy nasties which throned on North of Africa are Berber the majority

army berbers or African blacks And the Arabic dy nasties which throned are of single one

origin ali ibn taleb cousin of prophet Them big father came only to the African North with no

tribe

— The tribes which entered the African North are not Numerous (many ) scattered thanks to

kings Moslem berbers thus these Arabic do not have any point to the African North it is just

the arabization which exists ;;The legend of the tribe beni hilal is only a big lie ;;Because beni

hilal came only to steal the berbers of Tunis sent by the fatimides of Egy pt but the berbers of

Tunis asked help the king y aqoub al mansour King of morocco, Algers and andolucia spanish

And thanks to him this tribe was scattered on all the North of Africa ind mountains Thus

she(it) did not arabize berbers, but it is the berbers which chose of spoken Arabic for

centuries at present their descendant consider Arabic

I speak very well about the berber and I find that it is a mixture enters language(tongue)

simites and the europiennes languages(tongues)

I think that afrocentric did not read the history (story ) because Ethiopia and Somalia is

countries shared by berbers and Egy ptians that is why they a culture different from the

others African black and in more ethupiens are more clearly they are not completely black


I add that there are Berber tribes in the mountains which(who) are mixed with the blacks the

Tuareg tribes and the Arabic families y amanite also slaves Somalian or ethoupiens because

tribes zennete berbers frequented the South of Egy pt By buy ing of the slaves or the others

the goods

For me my family alway s keeps(guards) line(feature) of our former(ancient) parends big we

are half fair and half white brown and not black looks at this v ideo of y outube






face of berbers north africa

Alger( music)kaby le




I only mean that the current berbers is crossed with the other peoples of desert

Moroccan | April 3, 2009 at 4:57 pm | Reply

Malika, y ou’re right, some Berber tribes named Kotama and Zenata of the Middle Ages had

invaded Egy pt to the Sudan, other Berber tribes invaded Mali and Ghana from Moorish

empire , all the tribes of the Sahara are not directly Tuaregs, Egy pt is ruled by Ait Ziri family

of Berber origin from Tunisia, this noble family found melted the Fatimid empire in the

Middle East by kotama tribes of Morocco and Algeria, Cairo capital of Egy pt, founded by the

Berber of Morocco and Algeria was populated mainly by those BERBERS come from the

northern of Africa ,until now ! several Egy ptians bear the names of Moroccan origin, and y ou

can send anthropologists of Egy ptian history about the events of Middle Ages! for y our




information the Fatimid empire is the first Shiite empire in which the new invaders have

committed war crimes against the Sunnis of Egy pt and that several Berber tribes decided to

migrated to the south when they fade independent kingdoms in sudan!

Egy ptian historians even argue that the kotama tribes are continued their migrations to

Mesopotamia! to all plz consult history of fatimid empire , it’s the first berber empire in

middle east from medieval age’s

thx to all


I have images of the army al mowahade the Berber dy nasty of Moroccan origin of the

mountain atlass …..But comment are in Arabic

wawwww My God these photos are very former(ancient) make by the Berber dy nasty

mowahade even and not pulled(fired) by the imagination

Y ou go to notice the presence of a minority black

And berbèrs is alway s white and Fair-haired man(Blond)

http://www.ssislam.com/Tareek%20islam/aL%20Dwal%20%2017 .htm

The first image shows roy al messengers chretien alfonso

The second image shows the v ictory of the army berber on the chretien armed in the battle of

saint sebastien degomez

Three images which follow show the clothes of the soldiers berbers

I use the translation English French to explain to y ou hehehehehe

I think mathilda that these images will be y ou useful

mathilda37 | April 8, 2009 at 11:35 am | Reply

Thank y ou Malika.

dalouh | April 9, 2009 at 12:51 am | Reply

thank y ou mathilda for all y our effort.

to djillali

there is no such thing as an arab race in north africa .

our DNA doesn’t lie.

politicians and the merchants of religion do lie without shame !


http://www.ssislam.com/Tareek%20islam/aL%20Dwal%20%2017.htm





the so called ‘arab ancestry ’ is pure fantasy !

it was made up by people looking for power and prestige.

any way , why not take some of y our precious time and read this PDF document.

GENETIC STRUCTURE OF ALGERIAN POPULATIONS

http://www2.ku.edu/~lba/Publications/PDF%20files/2006/Algeria1 .pdf

regards


a v ideo – trailer about the city of al-hoceima / alhuceimas in the rif region, the rifians look

ty pically mediterranean.

ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | April 13, 2009 at 9:44 pm | Reply

Arabs are Southeastern Mediterranean and Middle Eastern, period.

Any one from North Africa with any thing other than full Berber DNA does not genetically

correlate with the native peoples of the region.

ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | April 14, 2009 at 4:09 pm | Reply

Dalough:

I don’t v iew many of the Rif people in y our last post as being very Mediterranean (certainly

not European Mediterranean). More like far North Eastern African / Middle Eastern.





Frenchy | April 14, 2009 at 8:40 pm | Reply

In this recent autosomal study (Worldwide Human Relationships Inferred from Genome-

Wide Patterns of Variation, Jun Z. Li, 2008) the Mozabites who are a saharan population

from the algerian Mzab were analy sed.

What is very interesting is that these Mozabites who are considered (apart from the tuaregs)

to have the most “Black african” ancestry show in fact only around 12% Black ancestry !

http://1 .bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7 688voT0/R7 9MXy HURCI/AAAAAAAAAFg/8MeKImXcV3

4/s1600-h/structurescience.jpg

mathilda37 | April 22, 2009 at 12:14 pm | Reply

thanks for the stuff Frenchy ,


… and here is a picture of Zidane the most famous (french) berber in the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zinedine_Zidane_2008.jpg

other very famous french of berber ancestry are :

Isabelle Adjani : http://www.prland.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/isabelle-adjani.jpg

Dany Boon :

http://www.adgoog.com/blog/photo/34067 a-dany _boon_boudera_la_ceremonie.jpg

Alain Bachung

Karim Benzema

and many others.

And as we can see they have nothing to do with “sub-saharan Africans” or even “Arabs”…


..I forgot the most famous Edith Piaf whose grand mother was a algerian Berber

http://corinefertiti.blog.lemonde.fr/files/2008/02/piaf-eternelle.120397 5512.jpg



http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/R79MXyHURCI/AAAAAAAAAFg/8MeKImXcV34/s1600-h/structurescience.jpg



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zinedine_Zidane_2008.jpg

http://www.prland.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/isabelle-adjani.jpg

http://www.adgoog.com/blog/photo/34067a-dany_boon_boudera_la_ceremonie.jpg


http://corinefertiti.blog.lemonde.fr/files/2008/02/piaf-eternelle.1203975512.jpg




ANTHROPOLOGIQUE

who defines how a mediterranean ty pe should look like ?

let me remind y ou,that the mediterranean coast of north africa is almost equal in size to the

european one .

so, y ou shouldn’t dictate how a mediterranian ty pe should look like ! (euro-centric ? )

besides, I don’t know what part of the middle east y ou are try ing to compare to (Iran,

lebanon, sy ria ,turkiy e, arabia ………?

regards

djilali djaber | April 19, 2009 at 8:05 pm | Reply

Mr Delouh

Sorry It takes me time to answer y ou,I was in Algeria for a while because my kaby le mother

passed away ,God bless her. To start,let y ou know that Arab is not a race but an ethnie(there

is just four existents races a’ savoir White,Black,Y ellow and Red ),I belong to the first without

doubt. But based on y our study of 4ooo algerian recruits it is insignificant to show an origin

because where I lived is a city of 100.000 people and nobody heared about a genetic testing

even in a big city as ORAN. Not to mention just my self,I knew a lot of people who knew their

arabic descent just by their family name as les Aoufi, Talha ,Zoubir… To end my comment,

after the independence of Algeria it is y our cousins Chaoui who governed my country from

1962 to 2000,ask them why they lied about the history and did not talk about it.They ignore

it

I am not waiting to tell me from where I come, I already knew ,my origin is from Irak

specialy Arab Djabour who fighted hard the invasion of the us army . Be a berber or an Arab

does mean nothing to me. I leave for y ou my place because my country now is CANADA ,

Iam proud to be part of a multiculturale society .

Who comes first to life, the Hen or the egg is a topic of a third world.

Ponto | April 20, 2009 at 10:15 am | Reply

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Don Blake reckons there is no race or races because

Anthropologists don’t believe in the existence of race. Really ! Last time I was at university

study ing sciences, my speciality is biological sciences, Anthropology was in the Humanities

faculty and hardly any units of Anthropology contained much science bey ond high school

level. Show me an Anthropologist with a science degree. They hardly exist. Coon was no

scientist. John R Baker was a scientist who wrote the book called Race but he was not an

Anthropologist. In other words, the say ings of Anthropologists on race is not worth a plug

nickle.

Haplogroups like R1b or J1 or R1a1 are essentially Eurasian in origin which means non sub

Saharan African and where Africans have those haplogroups it is due to admixing with

Eurasians. That is the result of genetic studies by scientists trained in genetics and molecular

biology not anthropologist trained in cultures or linguistics or some other pseudo science






like study .

The comments


Mr Faux Franchy

Why y ou are so proud?

Subsaharian people they do have their famous footballeur the maestro PELE (Edson Arants

DO Naciemiento) and Mr Obama(powerful human on earth) ,Mohamed Ali … Berber means

North africa.

If y ou are an endemic pure berber y ou should not leave y our ecosy stem to became a’ ton

tour invader (like the Arabs) for french people and Mr le Pen .and racaille for Sarkozy

Miss Mathilda Franchy comments are arrogants envers others and they not supposed to be

posted .His approach does not seem to be of somebody educated and intelligent .

Augustine | April 24, 2009 at 8:15 pm | Reply

Mr Obama, even if he is considered as “Black” is however not genetically Sub-saharian as

about 50% of his genes are european… A huge difference

proudkabyle | April 25, 2009 at 8:42 am | Reply

Mr Djaber, the iraqui arab from algeria who lives now in canada,

Please, do not pollute this very serious site with y our bullshit. Mathilda does not deserve

this.

And, please again try to improve y our english, it is a pity for someone liv ing in such a

country as canada.

proudkabyle | April 25, 2009 at 8:56 am | Reply

Why do not y ou come back to Iraq, y our original homeland?

ANTHROPOLOGIQUE | April 28, 2009 at 2:36 am | Reply

Pure Berbers are non-Arab and, of course,the original North Africans. Native origin Berbers

genetically correlate much more with Western Europeans. Today , the majority of so-called

“Berbers” are essentially a mixture of Arab and negro. Such people are only Berber in

culture. True autochthonous Berbers are a fairly small minority and found essentially in the

higher mountain ranges of Morocco and Algeria.


To Augustine:

Why to not call things by their names

I am too, comes from a mixture marriage:Father arab and mother kaby le. But because of my

look as an Arab even my maternal side family called me Arby (arab) .



http://augustine/









Mr Obama looks Black, He considers himself Black. His mother’s genetic materiel are

recessive not dominant.He does not look even moiety .

Mr proudkaby le ,as Ms Mathilda said ,the origin

of berbers is from the near east , y ou too ,y ou could have y our descents from Mesopotamia

(Irak) like me.

Lets go back together

Have a look at this:http://panoramio.com/photo/15135048

tzopilotl | May 5, 2009 at 12:36 am | Reply

…arab, arabaitan(OHG)/arbeit(ger)=work,

hmmm, a(r)ab/ (tl)ap/ba=tlapa(N)=land=

tlalli(N)/pa(N)=paint,

flame=tlatla(N)/pa(N)=paint.

(a)rab/rabotat(russ)=a(r)beit=work.

arabs are tlapas, paintballers, hunters,

they come from the race of aplu(Etruscan)=

apollo, arts and apples and pomes/apollome/

plums, they use tlapa/tla(m)pa/lamps

alladin. they are abel(bible), they are not

cain/in ca(N)=the being, thinking reed

people/tlaca(N)=body /caña=cane=acatl(N),

not fishers, and not body s/tlaca tlatlaca

tlacame. how is this possible? we are

all motla(N)/mo(r)tla/mortal, but the arabs

believe they are water/atl, altia, alaua,

allah. ojalá(sp)=if allah wishes, and tlapa,

aplu, apollo, the sun. they may have taken

sun worship from the egy ptians? where?

their calendar is the moon, so they were

once run by women as we all should be today .

ah, but they have the horse, definitely

they are tlapa/gobekli spawn, grainers,

desert khazars, zatal huy uk lupanares,

bull people, ocelot people,

airy ana(avestan)=ailia(N)=ally /-y ana=

y ani(N)=pilgrim(nomad=noma/nomatka(N/adv)=still, the same, alway s, spontaneous).

so, pilgrims, y ani=llano(sp)=expanse, plain,

prairie/(pr)airie/airy ana=nomads who work

for others, alway s the same, spontaneous.

how can one hope to change a people like that?

wandering warriors of the moon in love with

water altars, air/ailia(N)=working for others

never themsleves, and fire paint,

who believe they have no bodies and are

apples on the heaven tree ready to fall,

http://panoramio.com/photo/15135048




upwards?

tzopilotl | May 20, 2009 at 1:28 am | Reply

…berber/ b/v/uel/rb/v/uel/r(letra)=

iueliiueli(N)=powerfulpowerful/ivery ivery (letra)=ivory ivory , hmmmm, they are neander

blond, red, dark brown.

spanish racism is

clear sign they are related ibero/berobero/

verovero/iueli iueli, y es, from there.

they call themselves, maliki/

malhuia quiahuitl(N)=to honor the tree/ki,

and, the sephardics=toshavim=toxaua(N/verb)=toss out(ballast),shower.

the -im ending is found in elohim/

(oc)elome(N/pl)=birthing cave animal of

tlatlatzolteotl, iueli/ivory statue 35k bc

just found(ny times).

the isles, ceuta/ceuhtiuh(N)=decline, switch off/ceuhy an(N)=where one rests/

ceui(N)=to become cold/cetl(N)=ice.

mellila/mlilt(arab)/melelti, meletiani(N)=

repented, turbulent, fm, elleloa(N)=

hand out, cause pain, fm, elli(N)=liver, chest,

stomach=(b)elly (E).

carlos lascoutx | June 1, 2009 at 1:57 am | Reply

…hmmm, berbers are from iberia, they ’re linguistically connected: iberia/berber.

let me get a berber glossary . tks

carlos lascoutx | June 1, 2009 at 3:10 pm | Reply

…berberi(gk)=nacre, mother of pearl, hmmm,

wonder if they ’re try ing to say ivory /ivery /

iueli(N)=powerful, the bear word/uel/ver/ber,

which referred to the mastodon during the

gravettian? quite a shot in the dark.

berberion(gk)=shabby garment(raghead).

i definitely don’t accept the facile, barbar(russ)/

ualual(N)/warwar ety mology . confusion rains.

ah, their euro is mtDNA, dated 50k bc,

when europe in bear/deer culture, then they

go to caucasus 30k, then noma, nomatka(N)=

spontaneous, the same/nomad to n.afrika.

their name for themselves, mazy es from

mazigh, son of canon(from ham/deer is more

like it, my azo/meat in russian), why , it’s






the word mazatl, day 7 booktunes. could

it be that old, from 50k bc. stranger things

have happened, but this is near the top.

the egy ptians called them, meshwesh,

berber version, mashwsh=mazatl(7 ).

7 =the food/sustenance number and

may have surv ived from berber euro/

mtDNA. hmmm, more words:

tefetuth(bb)=butterfly /tepetototl(N)=

mountain/tepeptl tototl/bird, hmmm,

that one’s from the caucasus, but,the altai

has more butterfly s than any body .

tilemte(bb)=food, looks like, tilinia(N)=

stretch the bow, with tetl(N)=stone tacked

to it, one way of getting food. tlinqui is

a weaving word later.

asif(bb)=river, cipactli(N/day 1,souls),

the turkish for dunes=eksibe=ec(atl)s/cip/be

(letra)=ecatl cipactli(N)=wind dragon/river.

adu/wadu(bb)=wind(but the word, water/atl),

the wind brings water. the bb’s not exactly

first in line for language, which is the reason

for their arab appelation of barbaros(gk),

applied to their tongue).

amghar(bb)=leader, am(a)ca/ghar(letra)=

amaca(N)=watergiver=atl maca.

ils(bb)=tongue, (t)il(inqui)(letra)=

tilinqui(N)/lincua(Lat)/lengua(sp).

weaving word.

tarbat(bb)=girl, aha, t/tla(r)p/ba(ca)tl(letra)=

tlapacatl(N)=to wash clothes, hmmm,

semitic overtones, tlapacca-(N)=the prefix

for the patience, resignation words, the

rebecca root words. tlapa is cave word, first

lamps/tla(m)pa from hunter animal fat,

also the palli/pa/paint/phallic word,

tlapa/lapps(deer people north).



azur(bb)=root, tlaza(N)=throw down, on to

raza/raiz(sp)=root.

izi(bb)=fly , whiz(E)/uitz(N)=arrive, e.g.,

ecaitz(basque)/ecauitz(N)=ecatl uitz=

windcome.

a(r)gas(bb)=man, aga(arab)/ahauh(may an/

day 20/booktones)/aua(N)=water owner.

ul(bb)=heart, y ollotl(N)=heart.

ix f(bb)=head, ix f/pia(letra)=ixpia(N)=

face/ix(tli)-pia/piety , guard, the later

word, espy /spy .

in language, 50k is not a long time.

tzopilotl | June 10, 2009 at 11:24 pm | Reply

…gadzooks, y ou published it, mati, tks. for

another look at the same subject, try the

tzopilotl wordpress, post berberi/berberion.

ah, mazy es=mazatl y ectli(N)=excellent(y es)

deer.

tzopilotl | June 12, 2009 at 7:44 pm | Reply

…linguistic archeology is something new

and very old. new, because we haven’t had

pie nauatl before, that is, haven’t used it

as the data base for language. old, in that

it has alway s been there as the incarnation

of spirit and soul , alway s been for

peoples ancient or new. the wild connexions

going back thousands of y ears using one

word, one utterance/itoa(N) take some

getting used to, in sending and receiv ing,

one can be way off the mark and sound like

a crack-pot papanatas(sp)/ninny , or one

can be right on in the most incredible of way s,

riding haplogroups like the circus horse

that it is through the hoops of science,

and there are many . it is difficult for

one rider to assimilate all the habits of





the piebald horse of nauatl and most

difficult is the handling of interpretation

which can range from wild surmise

to the snick of the lock/tloc of certainty .

in this aspect, lingarch and letra differ

from demonstrable empires of science,

except perhaps av iation, for we are dealing

with fluidity s of sound passed down throough

the lips of what seems like an eternity

alway s receding before us, whose

earthly name is history , but i can assure

y ou the one thing that man has created

that is closest to whatever eternity he

ever has aspired to, is language, and i

ask a little more respect for its findings

and its eminence in the workings of

this world where it is the only manifestation

of man’s unconquerable drive to not be

forgotten in a universe so lonely and

fobidding he had to invent himself the

gods to mistreat him. tks

Q | June 20, 2009 at 9:30 pm | Reply

Obviously North African Berbers are white; no one with the slightest acquaintance with the

region would argue otherwise. But this idea that the Tuareg are somehow closely related to

the Beja is problematic to say the least. I don’t know how strong the genetic arguments are

(although I notice they score even closer to the Berbers than to the Beja – 480 vs. 558), but

Van Sertima’s pseudoscientific ety mologies and far-fetched comparisons cannot possibly be

taken seriously . (Where do I begin? How am I even supposed to refute a book that compares

a Nubian (?) word for “ory x” with a Tuareg root for “female” or “earth” and the (presumably

Geez) name of a king of Aksum, or that claims without citation that the Mazikes were Beja, or

that the “Makhorenes” (sic) of Nubia were spread to Algeria, or that the Tuareg veil “was

once used to keep them from breathing on the sacred fire”?)

Any way – apart from interpretation issues (Beja>Tuareg or Tuareg>Beja?) – there’s an

obvious potential problem with the genetic data: the “Tuareg” are a heterogeneous group.

Apart from the caste div isions (he say s the studies generally treat the ex-slaves separately ,

but doesn’t mention any thing about the blacksmiths), they include at least one Western

Berber-speaking tribe (the Ay t-Tawari) and several others which probably shifted from

Western Berber to Tuareg; and, from some perspectives, they also include three nomadic

Northern Songhay tribes, the Idaksahak, Igdalen, and Iberogan. I’d like to see which tribes

and castes Cavalli-Sforza’s data came from before drawing any conclusions.

slayerx13 | July 1, 2009 at 5:21 pm | Reply





the darck berber y ou mention are berber mixed with slave and arabic invader we call them in

berber “a verca ” it mean slave the berber who live in high land are white they loock

nordic/mediteranean the sami live in north europe if they shary dna with berber it mean that

somme north tribe of europe probably during ice age go further down in penesula and even

north africa


- mozabit are not berber we used them in war they com from midelest (and also dna give me

right)and they are shite in religion and give them the right to stail in north africa

-touareg are outsider dominated by the berber who give them culture and the art of war

-kaby le there is two the great : (werre the pure wiht berber are) werre the peaple never mixe

with arab and turck as they have the hate for all stangea and consider him inverior, the small

herre whit berber mixed with slave and

arab/turck invader they loock darcker somtimes whit and have berber culture and tongue

the great try

do dont mix with the small

-chaoui are : berber/arab/jew/turk admixture

they are the most enmy of the great kaby le in nortrh africa

herre is the pseudo berber of algeria as conclusion in spite of the great kaby le who are decent

of pure berber and whit all are “bastard”

in addition i say that in north africa all parte who was inhabited by the berber y ou find

blonde blue ey ed peapel among the population and less werre they unhabited lick sahara

concerning morroco it the samme thing all peapel mixed white arabo turk and slave may be a

litel minority in the high land the v ideo y ou poste dont loock for me berber at all and also the

pic they are arab from midel est or better a mixture of both


in spite of the kaby le of great kabily all are mixed – notte also that in north africa y ou find

blonde blue ey ed peapel among the population in the region who werre inhabited by berber

during antiquity and less in the region who was not inhabited by berber lick sahara and south

of north africa

tzopilotl | July 20, 2009 at 11:15 pm | Reply

…another addition to the, noma, nomatka,

nomatzinco(N)= still, the same, spontaneous,

alway s=nomad: meat/matr(ON)/

mats(Goth)/mat,matam(OSax)/maz(OHG)/

my aso(rus)/mazat, cmazat(rus)=annoint.

mazatl ce uentli seven se(r)ve, tonalamatl.






matlatl(N)=net, matlalli, matlallin(N)=

dark green, deep blue(netland).

ma(N)=hunt land/sea with net,

one goes from deer to fishing

all in one verb, ma=ma(n).

egocentric | July 22, 2009 at 11:35 pm | Reply

slay erx13

go back play ing computer games. Kaby le and chaoui intermarry all the time!!!

slayerx13 | August 21, 2009 at 7:18 pm | Reply

am hold for cpu gamme !and y es kaby le from “SMALL KABY LIE “marry with chaoui and evry

thing else in north africa but not from the great.

jake, borrowing his professor's computer | September 28, 2009 at 9:11 pm | Reply

Cavalli-sforza is not necessarily right about his claims that afroasiatic–given that Greenberg,

and nearly all of the mainstream historical linguists say that the phy lum arose in Africa. The

place of origin of the U group if it is 60,000 y ears of age as Torroni say s would have to be

Africa.

At another level it would be wise to work from evolutionary models and cautious thinking.

The peopling issue and the culture issue might be different things. There are no Berbers in the

Near East–and no textual ev idence–or hints in the Assy rian and other documents suggest

that there were Berbers there. The m35/81 Y variant is essentially restricted to Africa and

has a coalescence time that is nearly Holocene which fits the linguistic ev idence. Rapid

microevolution coupled with social and sexual selection can alter gene frequencies. The U

haplogroup is likely African in origin–and it is not surprising that it was found in northern

Africa. Given that Cromagnon and later western Europeans are not biogeographically

European in origin it is not clear why there is all of this emotion about Africa–there is no

getting around Africa’s role in the macroclade that led to humans.


The place of origin of the U group if it is 60,000 y ears of age as Torroni say s would have to

be Africa

Ah no, as modern humans were out of Africa by about 85k ago at the latest. Modern

Humans were in Australia at 60k ago. M81 I’d actually put down as Neolithic and

expanding with the population movenment from East to West that y ou see at that time., as

M81 appears to come from the Nile delta.

I’ve seen a lot of academic dispute about the origins of Afro Asiatic- and no, Africa is not

the generally accepted point of origin for it. In particluar I have issues with Dr Ehrets







work, which has proto cushitic at 10k old (herding sheep and goats) when the only place

goats and sheep were 10k ago was sy ria and Northwards of there. Reconstructions of PAA

show up Levantine and NOT African animals and plants. The real problem with an African

origin for PAA now is that Chadic speakers all chow high amounts of Eurasian male

ancestry that arrived with the Neolithic and their sheep and goats, which really doesn’t

help the ‘Africa’ side of the coin toss. The African AA speakers all show Neolithic input

coming from the nile delta and into their area, but there’s no suitable populaiton or

cultural movementout of Africa to account for the fact Semitic was close enough to loan

words to proto Indo Europeans when they (IE’s) first got agriculture.

El Mohamed | October 22, 2009 at 12:57 pm | Reply

To all :

After all these y ears of human infestation , I find it both unnecessary and childish to prove

that a certain people where of a certain complexion ,after all; humans of all shades have

contributed to the ill being of planet earth (including all of y ou, y ou tree hugging, save the

whale freaks: y ou belong to the same pathetic race).

I sometimes wish that the E.T. crowds were right so that all this nonsense of which human is

better would disappear.

As a Mediterranean North African I would have no problems siding with the Aliens as they

kick ass (mine included) and then we’ll find out who’s superior.

El

Howard | December 6, 2009 at 8:14 pm | Reply

mathilda37

y ou know what i think, i think people are confusing the word (black Moor) with the color of

skin?. infact black as in the word also comes from Moor… the fact that there also know as sea

people,people of the black sea!. Mauri was the genesis of the name of the ancient kingdom of

Mauretania!.Moor is sometimes used in a wider context to describe any person from North

Africa.

http://dancingfromgenesis.wordpress.com/2009/02/18/ancient-history -theories-of-

cartography -atlantis-great-py ramid-prehistoric-ice-age-mapping-navigation-stone-age-

cultures-of-mediterranean-sea-basin-trireme-ships-metallurgy -of-bronze-age-atlantean-

emp/

Howard | December 6, 2009 at 8:26 pm | Reply

The term Caucasian race (also Caucasoid) has been used to denote the general phy sical ty pe

of some or all of the indigenous populations of Europe, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, West

Asia, Central Asia, and South Asia. Historically , the term has been used to describe the entire

population of these regions, Caucasus Mountains= Caucasian race ..grt blog keep it coming

very interesting..

Joseph | December 12, 2009 at 10:56 pm | Reply



http://dancingfromgenesis.wordpress.com/2009/02/18/ancient-history-theories-of-cartography-atlantis-great-pyramid-prehistoric-ice-age-mapping-navigation-stone-age-cultures-of-mediterranean-sea-basin-trireme-ships-metallurgy-of-bronze-age-atlantean-emp/





“Chadic speakers all chow high amounts of Eurasian male ancestry that arrived with the

Neolithic and their sheep and goats, which really doesn’t help the ‘Africa’ side of the coin

toss”…

“high eurasian ancestry ”—NONSENSE,how can they have high eurasian ancestry when it is

the 3rd most observed in terms of genetics and the majority of their dna is Haplogroup E

which is common amongst other africans?

Regardless of what y ou think about ehrets work,y ou are not a qualified

Linguist,therefore,y ou cannot state his works as being fraudulent. just because it doesnt

agree with y our eurocentric v iew of AE’s and africans as a whole of being “eurasian” b/c they

dont meet up to y our stereoty pical perspective of a “big nose and lip”african.

mathilda37 | May 7, 2010 at 12:33 pm | Reply

Chadic speakers have high Eurasian ancestry on the Y chr, the Ouldeme have about 95%

R1b, and Cameroon as a whole was about 40% R1b.

Joseph, plenty if linguists and other scholars have issue with the quality of Ehrets work for

the same reasons I do.

I suggest if y ou don’t like non- Afrocentric sites that y ou don’t come here again.

Joseph | December 12, 2009 at 10:58 pm | Reply

Christopher Ehret

Professor of History , African Studies Chair

University of California at Los Angeles

Ancient Egy ptian civ ilization was, in way s and to an extent usually not recognized,

fundamentally African. The ev idence of both language and culture reveals these African

roots.

The origins of Egy ptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egy pt. The ancient Egy ptian

language belonged to the Afrasian family (also called Afroasiatic or, formerly , Hamito-

Semitic). The speakers of the earliest Afrasian languages, according to recent studies, were a

set of peoples whose lands between 15,000 and 13,000 B.C. stretched from Nubia in the west

to far northern Somalia in the east. They supported themselves by gathering wild grains. The

first elements of Egy ptian culture were laid down two thousand y ears later, between 12,000

and 10,000 B.C., when some of these Afrasian communities expanded northward into Egy pt,

bringing with them a language directly ancestral to ancient Egy ptian. They also introduced to

Egy pt the idea of using wild grains as food.

A new religion came with them as well. Its central tenet explains the often localized origins of

later Egy ptian gods: the earliest Afrasians were, properly speaking, neither monotheistic nor





poly theistic. Instead, each local community , comprising a clan or a group of related clans,

had its own distinct deity and centered its religious observances on that deity . This belief

sy stem persists today among several Afrasian peoples of far southwest Ethiopia. And as

Biblical scholars have shown, Y ahweh, god of the ancient Hebrews, an Afrasian people of the

Semitic group, was originally also such a deity . The connection of many of Egy pt’s

predy nastic gods to particular localities is surely a modified version of this early Afrasian

belief. Political unification in the late fourth millennium brought the Egy ptian deities

together in a new poly theistic sy stem. But their local origins remain amply apparent in the

records that have come down to us.

During the long era between about 10,000 and 6000 B.C., new kinds of southern influences

diffused into Egy pt. During these millennia, the Sahara had a wetter climate than it has today ,

with grassland or steppes in many areas that are now almost absolute desert. New wild

animals, most notably the cow, spread widely in the eastern Sahara in this period.

One of the exciting archeological events of the past twenty y ears was the discovery that the

peoples of the steppes and grasslands to the immediate south of Egy pt domesticated these

cattle, as early as 9000 to 8000 B.C. The societies involved in this momentous development

included Afrasians and neighboring peoples whose languages belonged to a second major

African language family , Nilo-Saharan (Wendorf, Schild, Close 1984; Wendorf, et al. 1982).

The earliest domestic cattle came to Egy pt apparently from these southern neighbors,

probably before 6000 B.C., not, as we used to think, from the Middle East.

One major technological advance, pottery -making, was also initiated as early as 9000 B.C. by

the Nilo-Saharans and Afrasians who lived to the south of Egy pt. Soon thereafter, pots spread

to Egy ptian sites, almost 2,000 y ears before the first pottery was made in the Middle East.

Very late in the same span of time, the cultivating of crops began in Egy pt. Since most of

Egy pt belonged then to the Mediterranean climatic zone, many of the new food plants came

from areas of similar climate in the Middle East. Two domestic animals of Middle Eastern

origin, the sheep and the goat, also entered northeastern Africa from the north during this

era.

But several notable early Egy ptian crops came from Sudanic agriculture, independently

invented between 7 500 and 6000 B.C. by the Nilo-Saharan peoples (Ehret 1993:104-125).

One such cultivated crop was the edible gourd. The botanical ev idence is confirmed in this

case by linguistics: Egy ptian bdt, or “bed of gourds” (Late Egy ptian bdt, “gourd; cucumber”),

is a borrowing of the Nilo-Saharan word *bud, “edible gourd.” Other early Egy ptian crops of

Sudanic origin included watermelons and castor beans. (To learn more on how historians use

linguistic ev idence, see note at end of this article.)

Between about 5000 and 3000 B.C. a new era of southern cultural influences took shape.

Increasing aridity pushed more of the human population of the eastern Sahara into areas

with good access to the waters of the Nile, and along the Nile the bottomlands were for the

first time cleared and farmed. The Egy ptian stretches of the river came to form the northern



edge of a newly emergent Middle Nile Culture Area, which extended far south up the river,

well into the middle of modern-day Sudan. Peoples speaking languages of the Eastern

Sahelian branch of the Nilo-Saharan family inhabited the heartland of this region.

From the Middle Nile, Egy pt gained new items of livelihood between 5000 and 3000 B.C.

One of these was a kind of cattle pen: its Egy ptian name, s3 (earlier *sr), can be derived from

the Eastern Sahelian term *sar. Egy ptian pg3, “bowl,” (presumably from earlier pgr), a

borrowing of Nilo-Saharan *poKur, “wooden bowl or trough,” reveals still another adoption

in material culture that most probably belongs to this era.

One key feature of classical Egy ptian political culture, usually assumed to have begun in

Egy pt, also shows strong links to the southern influences of this period. We refer here to a

particular kind of sacral chiefship that entailed, in its earliest versions, the sending of

servants into the afterlife along with the deceased chief. The deep roots and wide occurrence

of this custom among peoples who spoke Eastern Sahelian languages strongly imply that

sacral chiefship began not as a specifically Egy ptian invention, but instead as a widely shared

development of the Middle Nile Culture Area.

After about 3500 B.C., however, Egy pt would have started to take on a new role v is-a-v is the

Middle Nile region, simply because of its greater concentration of population. Growing

pressures on land and resources soon enhanced and transformed the political powers of

sacral chiefs. Unification followed, and the local deities of predy nastic times became gods in

a new poly theism, while sacral chiefs gave way to a div ine king. At the same time, Egy pt

passed from the wings to center stage in the unfolding human drama of northeastern Africa.

A Note on the Use of Linguistic Ev idence for History

Languages prov ide a powerful set of tools for probing the cultural history of the peoples who

spoke them. Determining the relationships between particular languages, such as the

languages of the Afrasian or the Nilo-Saharan family , gives us an outline history of the

societies that spoke those languages in the past. And because each word in a language has its

own indiv idual history , the vocabulary of every language forms a huge archive of

documents. If we can trace a particular word back to the common ancestor language of a

language family , then we know that the item of culture connoted by the word was known to

the people who spoke the ancestral tongue. If the word underwent a meaning change

between then and now, a corresponding change must have taken place in the cultural idea or

practice referred to by the word. In contrast, if a word was borrowed from another language,

it attests to a thing or development that passed from the one culture to the other. The English

borrowing, for example, of castle, duke, parliament, and many other political and legal terms

from Old Norman French are ev idence of a Norman period of rule in England, a fact

confirmed by documents.

References Cited:



Ehret, Christopher, Nilo-Saharans and the Saharo-Sahelian Neolithic. In African

Archaeology : Food, Metals and Towns. T. Shaw, P Sinclair, B. Andah, and A. Okpoko, eds. pp.

104-125. London: Routledge. 1993

Ehret, Christopher, Reconstructing Proto-Afroasiatic (Proto-Afrasian): Vowels, Tone

Consonants, and Vocabulary . Los Angeles: University of California Press, Berkeley . 1995

Wendorf, F., et al., Saharan Exploitation of Plants 8000 Y ears B.P. Nature 359:7 21-7 24.

1982

Wendorf, F., R. Schild, and A. Close, eds. Cattle-Keepers of the Eastern Sahara. Dallas:

Southern Methodist University , Department of Anthropology . 1984


Let me just comment on and correct this Ehret paper..

The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt.

Well y es and no. The DNA shows a large migration into North Africa from the Levant

about 8k ago, and into Southern Egy pt Nubia from the western desert about 10k ago. It

would be an African culture with near eastern ceramics, crops and people. As for Afro

Asiatic being from South of Egy pt, even African origin supporters generally don’t pick this

area as the origin of Afro Asiatic. There is now a growing body of ev idence to suggest

Afrasian actually comes from Asia (long story ).

They also introduced to Egypt the idea of using wild grains as food

WIld grains were being used as food in the near east from about 20,000 y ears ago. There

was a migration from the near east into North Africa (Capsian) about 10k ago. WHich is

moot as Egy ptians were harvesting wild grains about 16,000 y ears ago (they have flint

sickles from that era).

One of the exciting archeological events of the past twenty years was the discovery that

the peoples of the steppes and grasslands to the immediate south of Egypt domesticated

these cattle, as early as 9000 to 8000 B.C.

The Nabta PLay a cattle have been shown to be wild cattle. They were probably being

captured from the wild and kept, as y ou see this behaviour in another Saharan site with

antelope.

But several notable early Egyptian crops came from Sudanic agriculture, independently

invented between 7500 and 6000 B.C. by the Nilo-Saharan peoples




NO. This is based on his linguistic dates which are generally about 35% out of sy nc. So

9,000 BP turns into 6,000 BP. Its a long story to do with goats and sheep.

almost 2,000 years before the first pottery was made in the Middle East

Actually there are pots of a comparable age in Iran. People in the near east prefered to use

lighter pitch covered leather or plasterware bowls for a long time. Asian ceramics arrive

in lower Egy pt with the neolithic (pretty cruddy compared to the Nubian). To be fair, they

only discovered the Iranian pot a few y ears ago..

Never asked by any one: if Egy ptian culture came from the western Sahara why didn’t

Egy ptians speak Nilo Saharan like Nubians?

whatever u like | December 20, 2009 at 6:19 am | Reply

i have been researching my genes and heritage for some time now. although i commend y our

research nothing can explain how much race and language makes up who y ou are. as an

african american who has never been to africa i cannot tell a berber who’s ancestors been in

africa for at least 3,000 y ears that they are “caucausian” and im am a “true” african because i

am darker or have ancestry from where ever darker people are in africa? lest they look at me

and laugh. also scientist say african people have more dna variation (because of early history

africa was important with MANY civ ilizations their was early racial intergration okay .) so

back to me actually because i do have some plain indian blood (from north america) y ou will

find it difficult to match my dna to any one from africa. which is a reason why it is rare to

match a african american dna to a group or region in africa even if y ou can clearly tell in our

features that we have african ancestors!genetics, and language is best experienced by

influence like for instance i am christain and speak english (not a big deal because i’m from

the united states.) actually not speaking from charts and graphs i know that culture is y our

true identity marker. as an american i love baseball and movies and participate in most

holiday observations; as i have been taught. just like in most african american families it is a

normal thing at family gatherings for the oldest people to tell stories and the y ounger ones

listen and the older y ou are the more y ou are respected in the family y ou will receive many

gifts at family reunions and people will v igh for y our attention and the older children watch

the y ounger children who knows how and where this tradition started but it here and mostly

y our heritage makes y ou who y ou are if someone told me tommorow i was part japanese it

still would’t change my identity that has been intergrated in my familiy ’s structure. all i could

do is smile say and ‘that’s nice’ and accept it. god bless.

Elany | January 21, 2010 at 8:36 pm | Reply

Egy ptian people described a tribe of Ly bia called “Libu” as hav ing alot of Blonde Haired or

Light ey es people among them. According to a modern French History , there had been a

vast migration of Ly bian tribes (Berbers) to western parts (as Algeria , which was already

inhabitted by Berbers called Numidians) these “neighbours” invaders were called “Zenatis”

and now represent a big majority of the Berbers o f Algeria and Rifans.

http://[email protected]/





I think that the Libu tribe was surely a part of these Zenatis..that would be why , y ou find

more Light complexions among Berbers of Algeria , than these of Ly bia , because most of

Libus settled through Algeria : example : Chawi , Kaby lian and Rifans are Zenati tribes.

I’m not Pro-something!

My mothe is Algerian and my father is of Sephardic descent.

tayo | February 24, 2010 at 8:49 pm | Reply

I have this article very interesting. As some who is Black African from Western Nigeria, I

have alway s known that Berbers are not black africans in any shape or form, that why africa

is alway s been mainly div ided into two ,the North (Berbers, Arabs etc) and the rest which

mainly Black African.

I would not call an Ethiopian black african, every body back home knowns the diifference and

no one cares, because we all have our own diverse and wonderful rich cultures whether it be

Berbers, Arabs or Black African all of which by the way is very , very diverse with indiv idual

cultures, langugues, history etc.

I think the afrocentric thing most be a Black Western idea, not a Black African one.

Uraeus | April 6, 2010 at 2:24 pm | Reply

Tay o.

Y ou are are man of common sense, and I totally agree with what y ou have writen.

And y es afrocentrism is a Black Westen Idea; mainly a Black-American Ideology .

I hope some of those Afrocentrists will read y our post here on Matild`s blog, because

these Afrocentrists from North-America have never been outside their own country let-

alone Africa with all its human diversity . But they won`t be pleased with what y ou have

writen; because it goes against their warped Ideology . I would like to thank y ou for y our

comments!

ps I am a Kaby le Berber.

Taziri | March 5, 2010 at 8:30 pm | Reply

Thank y ou for the great site, it is very interesting to see different v iews, I am chaoui berber

from Aures Algeria residing in the USA, my v illage is a small one in the Auresean mountains

called T’kout, it has not been Arabnisd and all are very white, blond to brown hair, green,

blue, and brown ey es. We still do old ceremonies and speak only berber, many are still

pagans in the area, with many new customs brought from the Jewish.. We were not touched

by the Arabs nor can y ou see any impact of what the Arabs brought during the Islamic

movement. There are many old cave paintings that are prehistoric in the mountain areas

showing white people killing and eating animals along with ceremony paintings.. I do not

believe that they would have lied about the color of their skin back then, but as there were so

many invasions in my ancestors lands many areas did get mixed.. I have read one ancient






Roman book that said when they had landed and went into the mountains, they found a

berber queen Dihy a Damia who was white, her people were white with light colored hair and

barbaric..thus the name berber came upon us.. do y ou really think historical books and

paintings lie? we are so full of hate now a day s we get colored blind.. again thank y ou for the

wonderful site I have bookmarked it and welcome y ou to come to my v illage to explore our

paintings, mountains, and old v illages that are prehistoric

Keltici | March 14, 2010 at 6:30 pm | Reply

Mathilda:

Can y ou do us a big favor and respond to the clown know as “Genocenrist” over on

eupedia.com as regards Berber origins (Berber thread). I can only argue to a small extent,

since as I’m lacking information and don’t have the time.

Mia | March 20, 2010 at 5:46 am | Reply

Wow! What an amazing blog! I was researching information about the people of the Canary

Islands —– where my family is from, and I came across this blog. Many thanks Mathilda37 !

Uraeus | April 23, 2010 at 2:23 pm | Reply

Matilda

May I ask why my last post, where I replied to Tay o has not been posted? Was there

something in my reply to Tay o that y ou found offensive?


Was there something in my reply to Tay o that y ou found offensive

No, I haven’t been to the blog in months, and I need to pass all comments due to sexually

explicict abusive material being posted here before.

amazigh | May 9, 2010 at 7:41 pm | Reply

Thanks for sharring importent information in this blog.

It was very nice.

midax | May 14, 2010 at 9:41 pm | Reply

thank y ou for this rich blog where infos are interressant. africa will beleave great!

Mike | May 15, 2010 at 6:28 am | Reply

At the guy who said Afrocentrism is a “black” western idea y ou are totally wrong. Many

Africans know their history and also practice a pan-Africanism such as Molefi Kete Asante





http://musique-amazigh.blogspot.com/


http://www.maroc-music.net/





and Cheikh Diop who I believe is from Senegal.

I will agree that their is a such thing as Afrocentrism but there is also a such thing as

Eurocentrism. Who is to say one overides the other in correctness? It all depends on y our

worldv iew and how y ou look at things. The so called “credible sources” that every body

chooses to believes will alway s be RIGHT to one person and WRONG to another. So in

essence we are all biased to some extent. However, genetics are recorded blueprints of

history , but they don’t ALWAY s tell us the entire history . I believe one should study the oral

traditions of a people and compare their orgin with the current culture. Its not alway s about

black, white, arab, etc. Because people fell to realize that the stereoty pical Arab is not the

ONLY natives to the middle east. There was a large extent Negritos, and other NATIVE

“black” people (non-african) who established civ ilizations there. Im ranting, but basically

what i’m try ing to say is every one is entitled to believe what they want to believe. But at the

end of the day humanity started at one place.

mathilda37 | May 15, 2010 at 10:13 am | Reply

But at the end of the day humanity started at one place

Actually no it didn’t. The DNA sy udies show we have Nenaderthal DNA in us too.

was a large extent Negritos, and other NATIVE “black” people (non-african) who

established civilizations there.

They are there, but there’s no ev idence they predate the Islamic slave trade or built the

civ ilisations there.

Anonimous | May 19, 2013 at 8:57 pm | Reply

Dear Mathilda

A comment

Every body dream with extraterrestrial inteigence. On said inteligence came from space and

spread all over from space? Some Legens seems said that

We belive to know prety good, how human spread over earth but at time we suppose

inteligence were with all of them from the begining Why ? Don´t seem very clever think that

human born, from the very begining with all the “extras” specialli with the “inteligence

packet ” Is more natural, (Evolucionism), think tan diferents human groups essais his own

way to inteligence.

And the inteligence suddenlt was just in a point of the planet in this very moment.

We can also thing that the inteligence born just in one pllace in earth and was extended from

this point to all over by both invasions and sex /rape blabla by spreaded the smarts genes (


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Create a free website or blog at WordPress.com. The Coraline Theme.

the big diversiti genes in some places can be reinterpreted laike that a imposed mixed with

the intruder genes)

The clever people sure, must be taken by the rest of people as if they where Gods or…

extraterrestrial (so the Ley ends)

Time to spread all over? minimun 30.000 y ears (Any voluntier?)

Suposed this…find the starting the point!

Is … amazing.

Enjoy & Good luck

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eurasian origins of berbers and modern north africans

Documents

modern north africans

dna studies of north

arabized berbers

sea berbers

near east

mathildas anthropology

university of oxford

university of chicago