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Australian Agenda 21st

July Bob Carr

Sky News

Australian Agenda

Bob Carr

21 July 2013

Interview with Foreign Minister, Bob Carr

Australian Agenda program, 21 July 2013

Peter van Onselen:

Welcome back, you're watching Australian Agenda. Now, interestingly the

announcement by Kevin Rudd on Friday brought about a mixed reaction from the

Coalition. It would be fair to say that Tony Abbott, as well as his deputy Julie Bishop,

and indeed Scott Morrison, who was there as well, were flailing around a little bit in

terms of trying to work out how they were going to respond to this issue. They went

for - at least Tony Abbott - went for some familiar rhetoric from the past. Let's have a

listen:

NEWSREEL:

Tony Abbott: Who do you trust on this subject? Who do you trust to stop the boats?

Peter van Onselen:

For those of you who are interested in politics enough to remember John Howard in the

way that he launched the 2004 election campaign against Mark Latham, he evoked the

message of trust back then on a different issue. Have a listen:




July Bob Carr

NEWSREEL:

John Howard: Who do you trust to keep the economy strong and protect family living

standards? Who do you trust to keep interest rates low?

Peter van Onselen:

It is an interesting one, the use of political rhetoric from the past. Bob Carr, you're a

long-term person interested in political history. Do you think it will work for Tony

Abbott this time?

Bob Carr:

No, I think as observers have noted there is a desperation, a lack of balance in the

Opposition response to the Prime Minister's big announcement.

Peter van Onselen:

But it is one, though, if you look at the opinion polls they consistently show that the

Coalition, Rudd and the Labor Party are regarded as the better managers of issues

attached to asylum seekers. It's dangerous territory whatever you think of this

approach that you're taking to put it so front and centre, because the theory has been

that Labor wants to try and address and move on from issues of carbon pricing and

issues of asylum seekers. The way that the announcement was so stunning with Papua

New Guinea, this debate is now going to dominate politics for weeks to come is that

really what Labor needs?




July Bob Carr

Bob Carr:

I'm not sure, Peter. I know what you're saying. But I think the Prime Minister's

judgment is entirely correct in that the rise in numbers, the spike in the numbers of

people being brought, this is the second ingredient, being brought by people

smugglers, makes it unavoidable. So we have to look at this, given the nature of the

problem has changed, with new approaches.

I don't think we could have avoided this. I don't think there's any circumstance in

which we would have avoided it, because the numbers have gone up. You've got 3,000

people arriving a month. The annual rate is something like 40 or 50,000 a year. If it

continues at this level, the Prime Minister was very persuaded by this, it could rise

further as people smugglers really close in to make a financial killing.

You see, this is what refugee advocates, many of them, not all of them, and what the

Green party can't accept, the nature of the problem in front of us has changed. And

that requires a new and a bolder solution. The Prime Minister has grasped thischallenge.

Paul Kelly:

Minister, if we just go to the policy. I've called this new policy brutal. Do you agree

with that description?

Bob Carr:

Well, it is in this sense, we're saying - - -




July Bob Carr

Paul Kelly:

Is it the brutal?

Bob Carr:

In this sense it is brutally honest, it is brutally honest because it says, okay, you might

pay a people smuggler money and get into Australian waters, but we choose where you

are processed and where you are resettled and that won't be on Australian soil, so

that's the brutal honesty of the policy. It says to people smugglers, you try to make amillion bucks by loading a boat up, an unseaworthy boat with these desperate people,

but you won't be choosing where they are settled. So don't charge them a premium for

coming to Australia. Offer them a discount if you can for going to Papua New Guinea.

Paul Kelly:

Okay, what about in the case of a five-year-old unaccompanied minor who arrives now

in Australian waters?

Bob Carr:

A fair question, can I ask you to tease out those issues with Tony Burke who is

administering the workings of the policy. I want to be able to talk to you about the

broad policy and about how it fits into the relationship with our neighbours on this and

on other issues.




July Bob Carr

Peter van Onselen:

Isn't it a simple case that women and children will end up being settled in Papua New

Guinea, they just won't go to Manus Island?

Bob Carr:

That's right, they're going to be resettled, no-one, the policy applies to all categories,

they’ll all go there.

Peter van Onselen:

Is the Government concerned about the level of crime, particularly crimes towards

women in Papua New Guinea? It's one of those dangerous places, Port Moresby is one

of the most dangerous cities in the world that's not in the middle of armed conflict.

Peter van Onselen:

The Government of Papua New Guinea is very aware of that. They are seeking

assistance from us in the management, more assistance from us in the management of

their police in responding to law and order. They are very focused, they deserve credit

for focusing on this challenge, but I do note that our travel advisory to Australian

tourists going to Papua New Guinea is where it is for other countries that Australians

are very keen to go to, the Philippines or Myanmar for example.

But again I make the point the refugee advocates reprimanded me for relaying the

impression of many of our officials that recent boats have comprised overwhelming

economic refugees. Economic migrants and indeed many of the people on the boats




July Bob Carr

have confirmed that by saying they were coming to Australia to improve their

circumstances. That's what you've got a regular migration program for.

If that's the case, if they're not fleeing persecution, sorry, if the refugee advocates are

arguing they are fleeing persecution and they're not economic migrants they can't

object to going to a place that's a robust parliamentary democracy with freedom of the

media and freedom of religion.

Paul Kelly:

If we just clarify the heart of this policy, will there be any limit in terms of the numbers

of people sent to Papua New Guinea or is this open-ended in terms of numbers?

Bob Carr:

It is open-ended. There's no limit on numbers.

Paul Kelly:

And it applies to everybody, it applies to men, women and children?

Bob Carr:

It applies to all, the simple bold message is we decide where you're processed. We

decide where you are resettled, and if you arrive by boat without a visa it's not going to

be on Australian soil. As I said at the outset, it's brutal and it's honest.




July Bob Carr

Paul Kelly:

How does the Government feel given the appalling conditions of detention in Papua

New Guinea. How does the Government feel in terms of conscience sending women

and children to these facilities?

Bob Carr:

We are making an investment on permanent facilities on Manus Island and we will

make a commitment to the other locations in Papua New Guinea so that we are giving

them facilities that can be accepted by us, by the United Nations, by Papua New

Guinea.

Paul Kelly:

Now when Prime Minister O'Neill was talking at the Friday afternoon press conference

he gave a signal that his country's ability to take people will depend on the capacity, on

the capacity his country has. Now, that implies there is a limit.

Bob Carr:

No, it implies Australian support, Australian support in the resettlement process to

Papua New Guinea.

Paul Kelly:

What do you mean it implies Australian support?




July Bob Carr

Bob Carr:

That's what the Prime Minister said.

Paul Kelly:

What sort of support?

Bob Carr:

It's what the Prime Minister said. We are committed to helping Papua New Guinea inthis whole process, in helping them to start with on the processing and in helping them

on the resettlement. But lest that imply we are facing a big additional burden here, it is

likely to be - this is going to be cost neutral, because the cost of carrying irregular

maritime arrivals, people coming here by boat without a visa on Australian soil is likely

to be more expensive in many respects.

Peter van Onselen:

It is going to be cost neutral if it stops the boats. If it doesn't stop the boats it's going

to be incredibly expensive on top of the costs.

Bob Carr:

We will have an opportunity to see how it applies as the message sinks in, but you have

used the adjective 'brutal'. It is a robustly simple message, that is if you pay $10,000

to a people smuggler in Tehran, thinking you are going to be able to fly out of there,

transit in the gulf, arrive in Jakarta, pay $25 for a visa and get on a boat in a port in

southern Indonesia, you are going to be disappointed because there is no way you're




July Bob Carr

coming to Australia. You're going to be processed and resettled in Papua New Guinea.

I think that is a mighty powerful argument that is going to stop boats.

Peter van Onselen:

Can I ask you a question, as Australia's chief diplomat, about how you manage that,

because it is an interesting one, you've got the Australian Prime Minister standing next

to the Papua New Guinean Prime Minister effectively delivering a message that we think

that Papua New Guinea is such a horrible place to live that it will stop people trying to

get to Australia, the mere threat that they might end up in his country. How do you as

the Foreign Minister manage a relationship with Papua New Guinea when you are

basically using how awful their country is as a stick to ward off people smugglers trying

to get people to Australia?

Bob Carr:

As someone who has been to Papua New Guinea twice as Foreign Minister I object to

your shorthand description ‘a horrible place to live’ . It's a developing country. It's a

developing country.

Peter van Onselen:

But that's calling it as it is, though, isn't it? At the end of the day you are trying to stop

people spending money to get out of places where they may be being persecuted, even

if they are found to be persecuted, legitimate refugees, the theory is that legitimate

refugees will not want to even flee persecution to get to a place like Papua New Guinea.

That's a tough sell diplomatically on the world stage.




July Bob Carr

Bob Carr:

Peter, we're a developed country, Papua New Guinea is a developing country. If people

are fleeing persecution there's a route for them to get considered by Australia, that is to

go through the process that others in camps around the world fleeing persecution are

going through, that is putting their case forward and being processed for inclusion in

what is in proportion to our population the world's most generous humanitarian intake.

I think we have to underline this to balance or talk about the brutal honesty of this

policy. There is no other country in the world that is taking as many legitimate proven

refugees in proportion of our population as this country, even in terms of the raw

figures at 20,000 per annum. Only the US takes more, only the US takes more, so

when I talk to other countries in the world, I have spoken to about a dozen so far about

this problem and what our Prime Minister wants to do when it comes to a conference to

look at how the Convention is working, there's been no hint from any of the

interlocutors about somehow we're being inhumane. Everything they see and say

about Australia is predicated on a knowledge that we stand in the front rank of

countries shouldering the burden and the benefit of being generous to refugees.

Paul Kelly:

Let's go back to the policy. How important is it for the success of this policy that boat

people be transported to New Guinea as soon as possible and be seen to be going

there? How important is that?

Bob Carr:

I think that is very important. But again no argument that's important. Again it is as

the Prime Minister said there will be a lot of feeling our way as this policy is




July Bob Carr

implemented. Our expectation is that it will be a blow to the business model of people

smugglers. Whether that happens in effect overnight or whether it takes a little longer,

we simply don't know.

Paul Kelly:

But surely it's got to happen fairly soon. I mean the whole point - - -

Bob Carr:

The implementation of this policy - - -

Paul Kelly:

The whole point of this policy is as soon as people start being to transferred to Papua

New Guinea it means there should be a fall off in boat departures from Indonesia.

Bob Carr:

We agree with that, we agree with that. Whether there are going to be people

smugglers who will continue to try their luck until their customers grasp the message

this is not working, we have had it confirmed, it is there in the international media,

people who pay $10,000 a head are finding they're not in Australia, they're in a

developing country, they're in Papua New Guinea, I think that demand starts to shrivel.




July Bob Carr

Peter van Onselen:

Can I ask you how accurate are the reports about a deal with Indonesia for them to

ramp up their examination of people coming from Iran with visas? That strikes me as a

pretty important part of the policy if you want to stem the flow initially into Indonesia

before the people smugglers get a chance to offer direction after that?

Bob Carr:

Peter, that's a second platform, a second foundation of the policy. When I was in

Indonesia I said our Prime Minister is coming here shortly, can we work together on

looking at this question of Iranian immigration. Because Indonesia as a majority

Muslim country allows countries that are part of the International Organisation, the

Organisation For Islamic Cooperation to pick up a visa on arrival, a visa on arrival, a

VOA. Now the Indonesians were becoming aware this is creating some problems for

them.

Paul Kelly:

They've agreed to make this change, haven't they?

Bob Carr:

Absolutely, and we welcome that.

Paul Kelly:

How significant is that?




July Bob Carr

Bob Carr:

I think it is very significant, because all of a sudden back in Iran you've got people

getting the message.

Peter van Onselen:

So you now need to - if you're Iranian you now need to get a visa before you make

your way by plane to Indonesia?

Bob Carr:

That's right. This business model with the people smugglers have been based on

people in Indonesia buying a one-way ticket, getting into Jakarta, paying, I'm told, $25

for the visa when they arrive there and then because of the deal they have struck with

the people smuggler getting transported to the port from which they leave in one of

these unseaworthy vessels for Australia.

Paul Kelly:

Now, is this correct that the Indonesian government was given no prior warning of this

Friday.

Bob Carr:

That's absolutely incorrect, no.




July Bob Carr

Paul Kelly:

That's incorrect.

Bob Carr:

On Friday morning I phoned Dr Marty Natalegawa and told him that the Prime Minister

was about to make this announcement. At least in broad terms when I had dinner with

him on Monday night after he received his honorary degree at Macquarie University I

alerted him to what we were working on.

Paul Kelly:

And what was the Indonesian response?

Bob Carr:

Well, in the detailed conversation, which was the one on Friday morning, he received

that, I think - I hesitate to put words in his mouth, I think the tone was this confirms

Australia is serious, that on Australia's side we're getting serious. I think that was the

tone of his response.

Paul Kelly:

It's about time Indonesia got serious, isn't it? I mean they could have taken this action

in relation to the Iranians some time earlier. I mean this has been a problem for a

considerable period of time?




July Bob Carr

Bob Carr:

Indonesia, no more than Australia, is going to do things in a way that looks to domestic

opinion we are simply doing them at the request of a neighbour. Indonesia arrived at

that point not only because we said this is of concern to us, something we want to think

about, but because of their own domestic dynamics.

By the way, the Prime Minister couldn't have underlined more than he did the

importance of a regional approach. Now, I mean the Indonesians cannot be flawed,

Paul. They said we will sponsor on August 20 a regional conference, so transit

countries, destination countries in the region can put their concerns on the table.

Peter van Onselen:

Senator, can I ask you about this regional solution idea. There is going to be the

summit, attempts to make the deal that Australia has with Papua New Guinea part of a

regional solution. Would that involve perhaps similar-style deals we now have with

Papua New Guinea with other countries in our region? That would broaden the ambit, I

suppose, of the kind of nations that we could send asylum seekers to in terms of

countries that are also signatory nations?

Bob Carr:

I think there will be countries in the Pacific looking at what we have agreed with Papua

New Guinea and thinking if a seasoned statesman like Peter O'Neill thinks this will work

for Papua New Guinea, and he leads the biggest nation in the region, then why can't it

work for us?




July Bob Carr

Paul Kelly:

You think this would be quite a good idea to consider applying this policy to other

countries in the region?

Bob Carr:

We are very open to it. I'm not going to attend, I'll be coincidentally in the Solomons

on Tuesday and Wednesday for the 10th anniversary of the Ramsey Intervention.

There will be other leaders of Pacific states there, other representatives of Pacific

islands states there. I have won't be twisting arms, but I'm sure that will figure in

conversation. They would need to get to it as Papua New Guinea did as a result of

their own internal considerations, but I think we could safely say that they will be

looking at what Peter O'Neill has done for Papua New Guinea in this and inevitably

considering whether it makes sense for them. We are happy at that point to begin

talking to them.

Paul Kelly:

Okay, let's start talking about Nauru. We have seen the writing on Nauru. We have

seen virtually the destruction of the facilities on Nauru. What's your response to that as

Foreign Minister and presumably the consequence for Australia is that we will have to

put up a lot of money to rebuild the facility; is that correct?

Bob Carr:

As a destination country we have to stump up the money for the accommodation and

the processing of people who arrive without visas. But this is France or Britain or




July Bob Carr

Sweden, Canada, they have to do the same. It's part of the cost of being in this

globalised world.

Peter van Onselen:

What's your information as to why the rioting occurred? Was it because of the

announcement on Friday?

Bob Carr:

No, no, my advice is that it wasn't related to the announcement on Friday. I can say

this, I think the people who are now being held by police there should understand that

what they did doesn't impress a soul in Australia. It doesn't impress anyone in

Australia, and the Minister for Immigration, Tony Burke, has said, when the

Government makes a decision about refugee status it considers whether a person has

been fleeing persecution, it also considers matters of character. It also must weigh

matters of character, and - - -

Paul Kelly:

So there will be a penalty for people engaging in this sort of activity? That's what

you're saying?

Bob Carr:

I think it could be said that our Government when it looks at people - when the

Government looks at refugee status it considers whether the person has fled




July Bob Carr

persecution and it considers their character and obviously criminal behaviour on Nauru

is a reflection on character.

Paul Kelly:

Now, we all know that the Government's newly announced policy at some point or

other is certain to be tested in the High Court. We know the High Court killed the initial

Malaysian Agreement, so I'd like to ask you how confident are you that the new policy

can get through the High Court and how important is it for the High Court as an

institution to have broad cognisance of the national challenge here?

Bob Carr:

Well, we have designed this with the High Court response to the Malaysian

arrangement very much in mind. We believe that this is legally very robust.

Peter van Onselen:

Is that because in this case Papua New Guinea are signatory to the UN Convention is

that the core difference between the Malaysian solution failing in the High Court?

Bob Carr:

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm assured by the legal advisors to the government that all the

considerations and I understand that was one of them.




July Bob Carr

Peter van Onselen:

These are the same legal advisors who didn't think that the Malaysian solution would

work?

Bob Carr:

We have the advantage, though, of what the High Court decided. I think the view in

the legal fraternity, among people who supported what the High Court did and among

people who opposed it, is that that was a somewhat forward-leaning - as High Court

decisions go, that was a forward-leaning one. It did take people by surprise including

people who welcomed it. But I'm assured one, that this is robust, and second from

Opposition comments supporting this policy, assured that should we win the election,

and it may be necessary to legislate it in response to a High Court decision to the

contrary, that there be support in the parliament for it. That makes it different from the

history of the Malaysian arrangement.

Paul Kelly:

Now, important do you think is in a broader sense the High Court be more cognisant of

the actions taken by the Executive and by the parliament in pursuing the national

interest on these sorts of issues?

Bob Carr:

At this stage I don't think I'd go out and speculate about the High Court coming down

against this, but I would say, I think the position of the vast majority of the Australian

people is that subject to some room for judicial oversight and review it is the Executive




July Bob Carr

government backed by the parliament that ought to make the people's decision on

whether people be processed on Australian soil or somewhere else.

Paul Kelly:

I'd also like to ask, is it important that this new policy at some stage be put to the

parliament for ratification? Surely, surely this is an important consideration?

Bob Carr:

Well, it doesn't require that, but the opposition have said, Paul, that they support it.

Were we to win the election and it be considered necessary, or preferable to have it go

to the parliament, then we'd be able to count on their support. Certainly if we are

reelected, given the prominence this policy has had already, there would be no

argument about claiming a mandate and the Australian people would be saying were

we to win the election, the Australian people would be saying if it's necessary, if it's

necessary it should be enshrined in legislation.

Paul Kelly:

So in other words, the election is a referendum on Kevin Rudd's boat policy?

Bob Carr:

Oh, no, I'm not saying that.




July Bob Carr

Paul Kelly:

I thought you were just saying that.

Bob Carr:

That's not untrue, but it's too - - -

Paul Kelly:

So it is true?

Bob Carr:

They're not the words I'd choose, they're not the words I'd choose.

Paul Kelly:

Well, what are the words you would choose?

Bob Carr:

I would say the Government would have a reasonable claim on a mandate should we

win the election.




July Bob Carr

Peter van Onselen:

If they were the words you'd choose you'd cease to be Bob 'no headline' Carr, but we

are almost out of time.

Bob Carr:

I want to be very diplomatic about these things.

Peter van Onselen:

We are almost out of time. Can I ask you a question about the deal or the

arrangements with Papua New Guinea? How confident are you that these will be

honoured more broadly because there's been a lot of turmoil in their parliamentary

democracy. If there is a change of leadership are you confident this will hold?

Bob Carr:

Not since their election, not since their election. Peter O'Neill won a big decisive

majority at the last election in Papua New Guinea. I think he's the strongest leader we

have had to deal with in Papua New Guinea for a long time and I think it's the view of

Australian leadership that he's a very impressive leader.

Peter van Onselen:

All right, Bob Carr we are out of time. We appreciate you joining us on Australian

Agenda. Thanks very much for your company.



Bob Carr:

My great pleasure, thank you.

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