bch-rra-v13 march 2, 2020 cover · 2020. 3. 3. · british columbia hydro and power authority -...
TRANSCRIPT
-
Allwest Reporting Ltd. #1200 - 1125 Howe Street Vancouver, B.C. V6Z 2K8
BRITISH COLUMBIA UTILITIES COMMISSION
IN THE MATTER OF THE UTILITIES COMMISSION ACT
R.S.B.C. 1996, CHAPTER 473
and
British Columbia Hydro and Power Authority -
F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Application
BEFORE:
D. Morton, Panel Chair/Commission Chair
A. Fung, Q.C., Commissioner/Deputy Chair R. Mason, Commissioner B. Lockhart Commissioner VOLUME 13
PROCEEDINGS
Vancouver, B.C. March 2nd , 2020
-
APPEARANCES P. MILLER, Commission Counsel M. GHIKAS, British Columbia Hydro & Power Authority T. AHMED, C. BYSTROM, C. WEAFER, Commercial Energy Consumers Association of British Columbia (CEC) P. WEAFER, M. KEEN, Association of Major Power Customers of B.C. (AMPC) E. CHAN, A. BAER, W. ANDREWS, B.C. Sustainable Energy Association (BCSEA) M. JACKSON, T. HACKNEY, L. WORTH, British Columbia Old Age Pensioners’ Organizations, Active I. MIS, Support Against Poverty, Disability Alliance B.C., Council of Senior Citizens’
Organizations of B.C., Tenants Resource and Advisory Centre and Together Against Poverty Society (BCOAPO)
D. AUSTIN, Clean Energy Association of British Columbia (CEABC) J. WEIMER, J. QUAIL, Movement of United Professionals (MoveUP) S. QUAIL, J. McLEAN, Zone II Ratepayers H. WANG, L. DONG, D. INCE, Self E. GJOSHE, Self P. WILLIS Self I. CULLIS BC Non-Profit Housing Association
-
INDEX PAGE
VOLUME 5 – January 20th, 2020
OPENING STATEMENT BY MR. GHIKAS ................... 336
BC HYDRO PANEL 1 - POLICY PANEL: CHRIS O'RILEY, Affirmed: DAVID WONG, Affirmed: Examination in Chief by Mr. Ghikas ........... 342 Cross-Examination by Mr. C. Weafer ........... 360 Cross-Examination by Mr. Keen ................ 409 Cross-Examination by Ms. Worth ............... 466 Cross-Examination by Ms. Mis ................. 479 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrews ............. 487 Cross-Examination by Mr. Austin .............. 508 Cross-Examination by Mr. Quail ............... 564
VOLUME 6 – January 21st, 2020
BC HYDRO PANEL 1 - POLICY PANEL: CHRIS O'RILEY, Resumed: DAVID WONG, Resumed: Cross-Examination by Mr. Austin (Cont'd) ..... 583 Cross-Examination by Ms. McLean .............. 628 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ince ................ 646 Cross-Examination by Mr. Willis .............. 671 Cross-Examination by Ms. Gjoshe .............. 677 Cross-Examination by Mr. Miller .............. 710 By Commission Panel .......................... 726
BC HYDRO PANEL 2 - OPERATING COSTS: JANET FRASER, Affirmed: CAROLYNN RYAN, Affirmed: RYAN LAYTON, Affirmed: DAVID WONG, Resumed: KIP MORISON, Affirmed: Examination in Chief by Mr. Ghikas ........... 752 Cross-Examination by Mr. C. Weafer ........... 759 Cross-Examination by Mr. Keen ................ 794
-
INDEX PAGE
VOLUME 7 – January 22nd, 2020
BC HYDRO PANEL 2 - OPERATING COSTS: JANET FRASER, Resumed: CAROLYNN RYAN, Resumed: RYAN LAYTON, Resumed: DAVID WONG, Resumed: KIP MORISON, Resumed: Cross-Examination by Mr. C. Weafer (Cont'd) .. 857 Cross-Examination by Mr. Keen (Cont'd) ....... 859 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrews ............. 966 Cross-Examination by Ms. Worth ............... 985 Cross-Examination by Ms. Mis ................ 1001 Cross-Examination by Mr. Quail .............. 1017 Cross-Examination by Mr. Austin ............ 1036
VOLUME 8A & 8B - January 23rd, 2020
BC HYDRO PANEL 2 - OPERATING COSTS: JANET FRASER, Resumed: CAROLYNN RYAN, Resumed: RYAN LAYTON, Resumed: DAVID WONG, Resumed: KIP MORISON, Resumed: Cross-Examination by Mr. Ince ............... 1085 Cross-Examination by Ms. Gjoshe ............. 1101 Cross-Examination by Mr. Miller ............. 1119 By Commission Panel ......................... 1214 Cross-Examination by Mr. Quail (Cont'd) ..... 1248
BC HYDRO PANEL 3 - LOAD FORECAST AND COST OF ENERGY: CHARLOTTE MITHA, Affirmed: BRUCE CHOW, Affirmed: HEATHER MATTHEWS, Affirmed: BILL CLENDINNING, Affirmed: JOHN RICH, Affirmed: MAUREEN DASCHUK, Affirmed: Examination in Chief by Mr. Ghikas .......... 1253 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ince ............... 1276 Cross-Examination by Mr. C. Weafer .......... 1340 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrews ............ 1361
-
INDEX PAGE
VOLUME 9 - January 24th, 2020
BC HYDRO PANEL 3 - LOAD FORECAST AND COST OF ENERGY: CHARLOTTE MITHA, Resumed: BRUCE CHOW, Resumed: HEATHER MATTHEWS, Resumed: BILL CLENDINNING, Resumed: JOHN RICH, Resumed: MAUREEN DASCHUK, Resumed: Cross-Examination by Ms. Quail .............. 1385 Cross-Examination by Mr. Austin ............. 1411 Cross-Examination by Mr. Keen ............... 1561 Cross-Examination by Ms. Worth .............. 1568 Cross-Examination by Mr. Willis ............. 1571 Cross-Examination by Mr. Wang ............... 1580
VOLUME 10 - February 24th, 2020
BC HYDRO PANEL 3 - LOAD FORECAST AND COST OF ENERGY: CHARLOTTE MITHA, Resumed: BRUCE CHOW, Resumed: HEATHER MATTHEWS, Resumed: BILL CLENDINNING, Resumed: JOHN RICH, Resumed: MAUREEN DASCHUK, Resumed: Cross-Examination by Ms. Gjoshe ............. 1619 Cross-Examination by Mr. Miller ............. 1718 By Commission Panel ......................... 1804 BC HYDRO PANEL 4 - CAPITAL PLANNING et al: ALICIA PINKSEN, Affirmed: ANDY DARBY, Affirmed: MAUREEN DASCHUK, Resumed: AL LEONARD, Affirmed: MELISSA HOLLAND, Affirmed: Examination in Chief by Mr. Ghikas .......... 1822
-
INDEX PAGE
VOLUME 11 - February 25th, 2020
BC HYDRO PANEL 4 - CAPITAL PLANNING et al: ALICIA PINKSEN, Resumed: AJAY KUMAR, Resumed: ANDY DARBY, Resumed: MAUREEN DASCHUK, Resumed: AL LEONARD, Resumed: MELISSA HOLLAND, Resumed: Cross-Examination by Mr. C. Weafer .......... 1838 Cross-Examination by Mr. Austin ............. 1882 AMPC PANEL: MELISSA DAVIES, Affirmed: PATRICK BOWMAN, Affirmed: Examination in Chief by Mr. Keen ............ 1952 Opening Statement of Mr. Bowman ............. 1961 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrews ............ 1977 Cross-Examination by Mr. Quail .............. 2013 Cross-Examination by Mr. Austin ............. 2018 Cross-Examination by Ms. McLean ............. 2024 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ghikas ............. 2029 By Commission Panel ......................... 2075
BC HYDRO PANEL 4 - CAPITAL PLANNING et al: ALICIA PINKSEN, Resumed: AJAY KUMAR, Resumed: ANDY DARBY, Resumed: MAUREEN DASCHUK, Resumed: AL LEONARD, Resumed: MELISSA HOLLAND, Resumed: Cross-Examination by Mr. Austin (Cont'd) .... 2081
VOLUME 12 - February 28th, 2020
BC HYDRO PANEL 4 - CAPITAL PLANNING et al: ALICIA PINKSEN, Resumed: AJAY KUMAR, Resumed: ANDY DARBY, Resumed: MAUREEN DASCHUK, Resumed: AL LEONARD, Resumed: MELISSA HOLLAND, Resumed:
-
INDEX PAGE Cross-Examination by Mr. Keen ............... 2104 Cross-Examination by Mr. Austin ............. 1882 Cross-Examination by Mr. Andrews ............ 2267 Cross-Examination by Ms. Worth .............. 2290 Cross-Examination by Mr. Quail .............. 2299 Cross-Examination by Mr. Ince ............... 2300
VOLUME 13 - March 2nd, 2020
BC HYDRO PANEL 4 - CAPITAL PLANNING et al: ALICIA PINKSEN, Resumed: AJAY KUMAR, Resumed: ANDY DARBY, Resumed: MAUREEN DASCHUK, Resumed: AL LEONARD, Resumed: MELISSA HOLLAND, Resumed: Cross-Examination by Ms. Gjoshe ............. 2337 Cross-Examination by Ms. McLean ............. 2398 Cross-Examination by Mr. Willis ............. 2421 Cross-Examination by Mr. Miller ............. 2440 By Commission Panel ......................... 2533 BC HYDRO PANEL 5 - DEMAND SIDE MANAGEMENT KRISTIN HANLON, Affirmed: STEPHEN HOBSON, Affirmed: Examination in Chief by Mr. Ghikas .......... 2561 Cross-Examination by Mr. Cullis ............. 2565
-
INDEX OF EXHIBITS
NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
VOLUME 5 – January 20th, 2020
C9-14 EXCERPT FROM SAP INQUIRY REPORT .............. 378
C9-15 VANCOUVER SUN ARTICLE, FRACKING POSES THREAT . 392
C9-16 "ZAPPED…BY: KEN DAVIDSON, DATE: FEBRUARY 2019" ........................................ 405 C11-15 TERMS OF REFERENCE FOR THE COMPREHENSIVE
REVIEW OF BC HYDRO - PHASE ................... 418 C11-16 IR RESPONSE FROM F2012 TO F2014 REVENUE
REQUIREMENT APPLICATION ...................... 440 C11-17 AMPC AID-TO-CROSS 9, "NEWS" DATED MAY 16, 2018 ................................. 462 C6-8 PRESS RELEASE STATEMENT DATED MARCH 1, 2018 .. 468 C10-9 EXCERPT FROM SHAREHOLDER'S LETTER OF
EXPECTAITONS… DATED JANUARY 6 AND JANUARY 10, 2010 ............................. 512 C10-10 EXCERPTS FROM BC HYDRO'S SERVICE PLAN 2011/12 TO 2013/14 ........................... 513 C10-11 LETTER REF: 98538 DATED FEBRUARY 16, 2017 ... 527 C10-12 EXCERPT FROM LETTER DATED AUGUST 24, 2017 TO KENNETH PETERSON .......................... 530
VOLUME 5 – January 20th, 2020 B-32 BC HYDRO UNDERTAKING NO. 1 ................... 579 B-33 BC HYDRO UNDERTAKING NO. 2 ................... 580
-
INDEX OF EXHIBITS
NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE C10-13 EXTRACT OF BC HYDRO EXECUTIVE SUMMARY, DAM
SAFETY Q1 REPORT - F2014 ..................... 583 C10-14 "CEABC RESPONSE TO ZAPPED REPORT…March 21,
2019" ........................................ 600 C10-15 EXCERPT FROM CALIFORNIA PUBLIC UTILITIES 2018
ANNUAL REPORT ON THE RENEWABLE PORTFOLIO STANDARD TO THE CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE ....... 601
C10-16 EXTRACTS FROM ZAPPED REPORT .................. 613 C11-18 AMPC AID TO CROSS 11 ......................... 803
VOLUME 7 – January 22nd, 2020 C11-19 EXCERPT FROM "MAKING LIFE BETTER, FIRST
QUARTERLY REPORT SEPTEMBER 2019" ............. 902 C11-20 AMPC WITNESS AID TO CROSS 2 .................. 923 B-34 Reserved ..................................... 927
VOLUME 8A – January 23rd, 2020 B-35 BC HYDRO UNDERTAKING NO. 8 .................. 1081
B-36 BC HYDRO UNDERTAKING NO. 9 .................. 1082 A2-5 PAGE 34 OF 118 FROM ORDER G-47-18 ........... 1143 A2-6 EXCERPT FROM BC HYDRO APPLICATION FOR APPROVAL OF DEBT MANAGEMENT REGULATORY ACCOUNT, PAGES 3, 6, 7 AND 10 ............... 1194 B-37 BC HYDRO UNDER TAKING NO. 10 ................ 1204 B-38 BC HYDRO UNDER TAKING NO. 7 ................. 1204 B-39 BC HYDRO UNDER TAKING NO. 5 ................. 1204
-
INDEX OF EXHIBITS
NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE A2-7 EXCERPTS FROM BCUC'S F2009/2010 RRA DECISION DATED MARCH 13, 2009 ............... 1208 C9-17 EXCERPT FROM BCUC REASONS FOR DECISION RE. BC HYDRO…APPLICATION FOR ELECTRICITY PURCHASE AGREEMENT RENEWALS… DATED NOVEMBER 8, 2019 ............................ 1359
VOLUME 9 – January 24th, 2020 C1-7 DOCUMENT ENTITLED "COST OF IPP ENERGY" ...... 1389 C1-8 ONE PAGE EXCERPT FROM ZAPPED REPORT ......... 1400 C10-17 EXCERPT FROM TRANSCRIPT - VOLUME 12, DATED OCTOBER 20, 2008, BC HYDRO F2009 AND F2010 RRA ............................... 1421 C10-18 BC HYDRO UNDERTAKING FROM 2004/05 AND 2005/06 REVENUE REQUIREMENT HEARING, DATED JUNE 8, 2004 .......................... 1435 C10-19 GRAPH HEADED "LOAD COMPARED TO SYSTEM ENERGY INCLUDING IPPS ....................... 1449 B-40 BC HYDRO UNDERTAKING NO. 13 ................. 1472 B-41 BC HYDRO UNDERTAKING NO. 15 ................. 1472 C10-22 ENBRIDGE ARTICLE ............................ 1522 B-42 BC HYDRO UNDERTAKING NO. 16 ................. 1544 C10-23 EXHIBIT B-8 FROM BC HYDRO WANETA 2017 TRANSACTION ................................. 1546
-
INDEX OF EXHIBITS
NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
VOLUME 10 – February 24th, 2020 B-46 BC HYDRO UNDERTAKING NO. 24 ................. 1616 C14-8 DOCUMENT ENTITLED "FILE, CONSTRUCTION HELP
POWER GROWTH AS B.C. ECONOMY DIVERSIFIES" WITH ATTACHMENTS ............................ 1658 C11-22 ("OPENING STATEMENT OF PATRICK BOWMAN
(INTERGROUP CONSULTANTS) FEBRUARY 25, 2020" . 1717 A2-8 PAGES 63 THROUGH PAGE 70 OF THE WITNESS AID
INCLUDE ORDER G-199-19 AND EXCERPTS FROM REASONS FOR DECISIO ......................... 1796
VOLUME 11 – February 25th, 2020 C10-24 CLEAN ENERGY ASSOCIATION OF B.C. IR NO. 2.41.1 DATED DECEMBER 16, 2016 .............. 1902 C10-25 CLEAN ENERGY ASSOCIATION OF B.C. IR NO. 2.38.1 DATED DECEMBER 16, 2016 .............. 1910 C10-26 INDUSTRIAL ELECTRICITY POLICY REVIEW TASK
FORCE FINAL REPORT DATED OCTOBER 31, 2013 ... 1917 C10-27 EXTRACTS FROM BC HYDRO SERVICE PLANS MARKED . 1930 C10-28 TIMES COLUMNIST ARTICLE ENTITLED "EARTHQUAKE
FEARS PROMPT B.C. HYDRO TO EYE THREE ISLAND DAM UPGRADES", DATED JANUARY 12th, 2020 ...... 2083
VOLUME 12 – February 28th, 2020 C11-23 COPY OF DOCUMENT FROM BC HYDRO WEBSITE RE.
INDUSTRIAL CONNECTIONS ...................... 2105
-
INDEX OF EXHIBITS
NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE C11-24 DOCUMENT ENTITLED "BUSINESS PRACTICE FOR LOAD INTERCONNECTION MANAGEMENT" DATED 10 NOVEMBER 2014 ............................ 2107 B-47 BC HYDRO UNDERTAKINGS NO. 31, 32, 33 AND 34 ...................................... 2145 B-47-1 BC HYDRO UNDERTAKINGS CONFIDENTIAL TO PANEL ONLY .................................. 2145 C11-25 ALASKA HIGHWAY NEWS ARTICLE DATED FEBRUARY 25, 2020 ........................... 2185 B-48 BC HYDRO UNDERTAKING NO. 30 ................. 2202 B-48-1 BC HYDRO UNDERTAKING NO. 30 CONFIDENTIAL TO PANEL ONLY ............................... 2202
VOLUME 13 – March 2nd, 2020 B-49 BC HYDRO UNDERTAKINGS NO. NO. 26, 27, 28, 38 AND 40 ................... 2333 B-49-1 CONFIDENTIAL BC HYDRO UNDERTAKINGS NO. 26 AND 28 ............................... 2333 B-50 BC HYDRO UNDERTAKING NO. 37 ................. 2421 A2-9 EXCERPT FROM BC HYDRO WEBSITE ENTITLED "BRIDGE RIVER SYSTEM UPGRADES" .............. 2444 A2-10 PAGE 39 of 2017 TO 2019 RRA DECISION ........ 2460 A2-11 CEC IR NO. 1.18.0 DATED APRIL 24, 2018, PAGE 1 OF 4, EXHIBIT B-4 (WITNESS AID PAGES 25 TO 28) ................ 2464 A2-12 BCUC IR 1.5.2. ATTACHMENT 1, "CAPITAL
EXPENDITURES" ............................... 2465
-
INFORMATION REQUESTS
JANUARY 20, 2020 - VOLUME 5 No Information Requests
JANUARY 21, 2020 - VOLUME 6 For Mr. Austin: Page 586 For Mr. Ince: Page 652 For Mr. C. Weafer: Page 775
JANUARY 221, 2020 - VOLUME 7 For Commission Panel: Page 910, 1074 For Mr. Ghikas: Page 926 For Ms. Worth: Page 996 For Mr. Quail: Page 1019, 1021, 1033 For Mr. Austin: Page 1057
JANUARY 23, 2020 - VOLUME 8 For Ms. Gjoshe: Page 1102 For Commission Panel: Page 1129, 1215-1216 For Mr. Miller: Page 1173, 1198, 1207
-
For Mr. Ince: Page 321-1322 Mr. C. Weafer: Page 1353-1354
JANUARY 24, 2020 - VOLUME 9
For Commission Panel: Page 1399, 1584-1584 For Ms. Quail: Page 1407, 1408-1409, 1409 X 2, 1409-1410 For Mr. Austin: Page 1417, 1418-1419, 1443-1444 Mr. Wang: Page 1582, 1608-1609
FEBRUARY 24, 2020 - VOLUME 10
For Ms. Gjoshe: Page 1638, 1676 For Mr. Miller: Page 1732-1733, 1736, 1742, 1744, 1744-1745, 1776-1777, 1789 For Commission Panel: Page 1743
FEBRUARY 25, 2020 - VOLUME 11
For Mr. C. Weafer: Pages 1843 For Mr. Austin: Page 1928, 1931, 1944, 1946 For Ms. McLean: Page 2027
-
FEBRUARY 28, 2020 - VOLUME 12
For Mr. Keen: Pages 2120-2121, 2123, 2125 X 2, 2150-2151, 2153 X 2, 2155, 2156, 2164-2165 X 2, 2170, 2171, 2204, 2212, 2214, 2255, For Ms. Worth: Page 2292 For Mr. Quail: Page 2299 For Mr. Ince: Pages 2321, 2322
MARCH 2, 2020 - VOLUME 13
For Commission Panel: Pages: 2374-2275 For Ms. McLean: Pages: 2409-2410, 2415 For Mr. Miller: Pages: 2468, 2472-2473 x 3, 2482 x 2, 2496, 2524, 2525, 2526 x 2, 2528-2529, 2530 For Commission Panel: Pages: 2514, 2543, 2555
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2332
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
VANCOUVER, B.C.
March 2nd, 2020
(PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 9:01 A.M.)
THE CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.
BC HYDRO PANEL 4 - CAPITAL PLANNING et al:
ALICIA PINKSEN, Resumed:
AJAY KUMAR, Resumed:
ANDY DARBY, Resumed:
MAUREEN DASCHUK, Resumed:
AL LEONARD, Resumed:
MELISSA HOLLAND, Resumed:
THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everyone. I trust you
all had a good weekend.
Just before we start, on a personal note, I
had a good weekend except that I managed to stand up
the wrong way and put my back out. So, I am not going
to quite go for the podium yet, but if I stop
proceedings and ask for it, I just want you to know
that that's -- I might be kind of slow getting up and
hobbling away from my spot her, so just to let you
know. Don’t be alarmed if I stand up in the middle of
things.
So, Mr. Ghikas, I understand you have
something for -- or Mr. Ahmed, you have something for
us?
MR. AHMED: Yes, you've got Robin and not Batman this
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2333
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
morning, I'm sorry.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Everyone has their place, sir.
MR. AHMED: I have a couple items this morning. The
first is the filing of an undertaking. This is BC
Hydro Undertaking No. 26, and it contains a corrected
graph as a result of an exchange my friend Mr. Miller
had with Ms. Matthews. I believe this should be
marked as Exhibit B-49. And a confidential version of
this has been provided to the Commission panel, as
well as Commission staff, and that has been marked as
Exhibit B-49-1.
THE HEARING OFFICER: Marked B-49 and B-49-1.
(BC HYDRO UNDERTAKINGS NO. 26, 27, 28, 38 AND 40
MARKED EXHIBIT B-49)
(CONFIDENTIAL BC HYDRO UNDERTAKING NO. 26 AND
28, MARKED EXHIBIT B-49-1)
MR. AHMED: The next item I had were a few corrections
or subject to checks for the witness panel. The
first, the transcript reference for that is page 2199,
and Ms. Holland was asked by my friend Mr. Keen about
the difference in cost for the Campbell River
Substation.
Ms. Holland, you indicated that it was
likely due to a reserve draw, and Mr. Keen asked you
to check. And if it turned out otherwise, to please
correct that. Did you have a chance to look into
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2334
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
that?
MS. HOLLAND: A I did have a chance to look into that.
And it was not a reserve draw, it was the result of an
expenditure authorization request. And it might be
helpful to just explain our process. So we set an
expected amount, first full funding amount as a P50.
We then set an authorized amount as P90. The project
team can access what we call the "reserve" which is
the difference between the P50 and the P90 by going to
the gate board and asking for a reserve draw. That
then sets a new expected amount. And I had wrongly
thought that this is what had occurred in this
instance.
The other, if you then need additional
funds that are over and above the authorized amount,
above the P90, you can ask the gate board for an
expenditure authorization request, which is an access
to funds over and above to P90 amount and that is what
happened in this case with the Campbell River
Substation.
Proceeding Time 9:05 a.m. T2
So I'll just take you through the numbers.
The original expected amount, the original first full
funding amount was 25.4 million and the authorized was
29.8. The team then accessed the full amount of the
reserve due to all the reasons that were outlined in
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2335
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
our responses to AMPC IR Request 2.36.2, and we
discussed those the other day. So that set the new
expected amount at 29.8.
There were some additional reasons that the
team was of the view that they would not be able to
complete the project for 29.8 million and that really
related to a slumping of a slope due to heavy rains at
the site. And that slope had different geotechnical
conditions than the Geotech work that had identified
certain Geotech conditions within he substation.
There also was additional costs to constructability
construction resources on the site and the slightly
longer duration.
So when the team went to the gate board to ask for an
expenditure authorization amount a new authorized
amount was set at 40.1 million and a new expected
amount was set at 38.5 million, and it was the 38.5
million that I had wrongly suggested to Mr. Keen was
the result of a reserve draw, it was the result of an
expenditure authorization request.
The good news was that the team didn't need
all of those additional funds and they were able to
deliver the project for 33 million, which is just over
10 percent above the very original authorized amount
of 29.8, and you'll remember the 29.8 is the P90. So
they went over the P90 and we do expect, because it's
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2336
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
a P90, that in some cases some projects will go over
and this is one of those ones that do.
The P50 estimate, the intent there is that
50 percent of the time you're going to have projects
above and 50 percent of the time you're going to have
projects below and the P90 is 90 percent of the
projects should be below and in this case, the
Campbell River System -- substation, because of issues
that were encountered ended up slightly high of the
P90.
MR. AHMED: Thank you, Ms. Holland. The next subject
to check deals with a discussion in the transcript
that began at page 2,222, line 4, and there Ms.
Holland and Mr. Leonard were discussing with my
friend, Mr. Keen, two contracts that were higher than
estimated for the Kamloops Substation. And on page
2,223 there was discussion about the site preparation
and electrical contracts.
Proceeding Time 9:08 a.m. T2
And Mr. Leonard, you indicated, subject to check, that
there were two separate contractors and that there
were tendering processes for both of those scopes.
Did you have a chance to look into that over the
weekend?
MR. LEONARD: A Yes, I did. So there were two separate
contractors and the contract for the electrical
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2337
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
contract was put out to market. The contract for the
site prep was a direct award that was made under our
Indigenous procurement policy where we had an
Indigenous contractor submit a bid, that bid was
accepted, and that direct award was made to satisfy a
commitment that had been made under an IBA.
MR. AHMED: Thank you, sir. And the final item I had
deals with a correction and the transcript reference
for that is page 2271 line 6. And Mr. Kumar, in
response to a question from my friends Mr. Andrews,
you indicated that BC Hydro had about 14,000 feeders.
I understand there's a correction to that figure that
you'd like to make?
MR. KUMAR: A I was a little bit too enthusiastic. We
have only 1400 feeders, not 14,000.
THE CHAIRPERSON: But you're getting there, right?
MR. KUMAR: A Yes.
MR. AHMED: Thank you very much.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Okay, Ms. Gjoshe.
MS. GJOSHE: Good morning, Mr. Chair.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
MS. GJOSHE: Good morning members of the Commission
panel. Good morning members of the BC Hydro Panel 4.
Before I start, Mr. Chair, I'm sorry to
hear that you're in some discomfort this morning.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2338
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
MS. GJOSHE: I sympathize with lower back issues and I
would encourage you to get up as often as you so
please and in whatever manner you choose.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. On that note I will
remind you that we'll try for a break at ten o'clock.
So if you could let me know.
MS. GJOSHE: Ten o'clock, yes. For I'll work with
that.
THE CHAIRPERSON: So if you could let me know if you're
still --
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. GJOSHE:
MS. GJOSHE: Q Yes. So this morning I'd like to start
with some snippets of comments that were captured in
the cross-examination of this panel by the previous
interveners, those that went ahead of me. And I will
start with an area of expertise that I believe, Mr.
Kumar, this may be your area of expertise.
So I will take you to a part of your
testimony that is captured on transcript 11, page
1921. You may not need to go there, but I'll read you
from it. You were talking about interconnections and
improvements that you've made to some of your
processes and highlighted an example specifically,
something to do with an expedited interconnection
process to align with what you call indirect
interconnections to your system. Do you remember
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2339
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
that, Mr. Kumar?
MR. KUMAR: A Yes, I do.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Thank you. Can you please, for the
benefit of those in the room, briefly explain what
exactly these indirect interconnections are?
MR. KUMAR: A So the indirect requirements are with
respect to an existing line of a load customer. So if
a second load customer comes along and wants to avail
of an interconnection opportunity with BC Hydro, so
instead of building their line over to our point of
interconnection on our system, they can actually
connect to the existing line of the customer and that
would avoid their need to build an extra asset by
using and utilizing an existing load line of an
existing customer.
MS. GJOSHE: Q And some of these lines would be, say,
lines that were built back in the day for, say, large
mining sites?
MR. KUMAR: A It's possible.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Yeah. And is it also the case that some
of these lines may be owned by independent power
producers nowadays as well?
MR. KUMAR: A What I was referring to actually, it
relates to Tariff Supplement 6, which is for load
interconnection customers, not for IPPs that are
governed by the load.
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2340
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
Proceeding Time 9:12 a.m. T4
MS. GJOSHE: Q Are you seeing any interconnection
requests that are considered indirect interconnection
requests these days come in as it concerns
interconnections to the IPP, whether they are
distribution or transmission lines?
MR. KUMAR: A I am not aware of any requests recently,
subject to check.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Okay, thank you for that. On that same
page you suggest that when referring to the process I
believe, that this is something new, that we have
implemented three years ago?
MR. KUMAR: A That is correct.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Can you please explain if that is
something you are referring to is the expedited
process? Or this indirect interconnection requests
themselves?
MR. KUMAR: A I think was I was referring to three
years ago is this indirect interconnection requirement
that is now available for load customers under tariff
supplement 6.
MS. GJOSHE: Q I understand, thank you for that. So,
can you tell me a little bit more in detail as to what
is the nature of the work that you do for these
customers as it concerns the interconnection requests,
the indirect interconnection requests, and what sort
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2341
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
of engagement is required within your department, as
well as the skills that are used?
MR. KUMAR: A I'm sorry, could you repeat the second
part of the question?
MS. GJOSHE: Q Of course. So as it concerns the work
load for third party interconnection requests, I can
call them third party interconnection requests? Or do
you prefer them to be called indirect interconnection
requests?
MR. KUMAR: A Either one is fine.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Okay, thank you. So, as it concerns the
workload that interconnections group conducts for
these indirect interconnection requests, what are the
skills that are used, and what are some of the
functions that you engage with to enable them to come
through?
MR. KUMAR: A So I think the skills and the
requirements are the same as the customer is
connecting directly to our system. We have an
interconnections group that reports to Ms. Daschuk,
and they are responsible for the interaction with the
customers in terms of their requirements. And then my
group, along with Mr. Darby's group, is responsible
for doing the system impact study. So the interaction
with the customer is undertaken by the
interconnections group, and we do the planning study,
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2342
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
which is no different than doing it interaction and
planning study for a directly connected load customer.
As part of the system impact study, what we
are looking for is the impact on the system as a
result of serving this load, whether it is an indirect
load, or a directly connected road. Or we are looking
for our system's ability to serve that load from a
transmission perspective, from a stations perspective
and making sure we have the right protection and
control in place for us to manage the reliability of
the system and also looking at the telecom
requirements.
Proceeding Time 9:15 a.m. T5
So the system impact study would be very
similar for what we would do for a direct load
interconnection, it's just that they're using an
existing line that is owned by another third-party
customer.
MS. GJOSHE: Q I understand, but I believe in the way
you were describing that work you were also, I think,
presuming that there was some going between function
that you serve as well? Or is that some function that
is undertaken completely by, say, the parties
involved?
MR. KUMAR: A Sorry, I don't understand the question.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Yes, so let me rephrase it. There is
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2343
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
some facilitation then that -- is there a role of
facilitating or do you serve as a go-between as well
on behalf of both the party that is facilitating the
interconnection and the party that is benefiting from
that interconnection?
MR. KUMAR: A That is correct.
MS. GJOSHE: Q And the nature of that work, is it, say,
routine or does it involve negotiations as well?
MS. DASCHUK: A That work is conducted by the group led
by Mr. Franklin, and so his group would facilitate any
negotiation between the customer who already has a
connection and has line and the customer who seeks to
connect to the line.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Fair enough, thank you for that. So as
it concerns those negotiations, is there any monies or
financial obligations that change hands as between BC
Hydro and the party that is facilitating the
interconnection?
MS. DASCHUK: A I'm sorry, we don't know the answer to
that question.
MS. GJOSHE: Q So I suppose where I was going with it
is, does BC Hydro, either now or in the future,
foresee paying any monies for access to those third-
party owned transmission or distribution lines on
behalf of its endeavor to serve customer load?
MS. DASCHUK: A I think what we're saying is, I mean
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2344
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
there is a customer who owns a line, that's not BC
Hydro's line and the customer could conceivably say
they don't want to have another customer connect to
their line, in which case the second customer would
have to find another way of achieving the connection
to the point of interconnection.
I will assume that the customer who's the
first customer who has a line sees some benefit,
presumably, from the second customer for arranging
some sort of a commercial relationship. However, BC
Hydro is not party to the commercial relationship
between the two customers.
MR. KUMAR: A The only other thing I would add that
even though a second customer is connecting to the
existing line, if there's any impact on our system in
terms of the reinforce you would follow the same
process we follow for a regular interconnection, which
the second customer would have to give security
against that reinforcement and then we would actually
manage it through the same tariff supplement, same
process, in terms of the security and the production
of that into the future.
Proceeding Time 9:19 a.m. T6
MS. GJOSHE: Q Thank you for that, both of you. So Mr.
Kumar, if I may take you then to another word that you
used in the description for the work. You used the
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2345
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
term "expedited" when you talk about the
interconnection process that refers to these requests
being given. So -- in connection with these requests
being handled. Does the word "expedited" also mean
that these requests are being given priority over the
rest of your interconnection processes workload?
MR. KUMAR: A So I just want to clarify that when we
talk about the expedited process, it is not to do with
the indirect interconnection that we talked about.
Expedited processes for our regular tariff supplement
6 process for the load customers to connect to our
system. And the expedited process takes into account
those requests that are in an area where we have
enough capacity, and it's an existing load customer
site that is being used.
So those are two separate things that we
are talking about. One is an indirect tariff
supplement requirement for using an existing line of a
customer. The second is we get a regular request form
a customer, and we are able to actually look at
whether that should be an expedited process for us to
do the load interconnection study, or should it be a
regular process, depending on the complexity of it.
So I think those are two separate things we are
discussing here.
MS. HOLLAND: A And I would like to just add for the
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2346
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
facilities study phase, because the expedited
component for load interconnections also impacts the
facilities study. So the facilities study phase
covers the feasibility and the definition phases. And
what we can do for customers is actually overlap some
of the work that would typically be done in sequence.
For example, if the customer knows for
certain that they are connecting, and is interested in
us procuring equipment earlier than we would normally
do in our process, then we would start with the
procurement of long lead time equipment. A customer
might also choose to design their own tap, and we were
recently able to connect a customer well ahead of
schedule because they designed their own tap to
connect to our system, and we were able to also
procure some equipment earlier in our process by
overlapping some of the phases, and that would be
considered what we would call an expedited process in
the facilities study phase.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Thank you for that. So then, Mr. Kumar,
a question for you I believe. Part of what you do
within the systems planning group is develop the
budgets for the interconnections group. The
operational budgets for the interconnections group.
MR. KUMAR: A When you mean the budget, are you talking
about the staffing budgets? Or the budget for the
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2347
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
capital?
MS. GJOSHE: Q Both, but in this particular case,
staffing budgets.
MS. DASCHUK: A So, I am responsible for the operating
budgets for all of the groups that report to me,
including the interconnections group. There is -- Mr.
Kumar has no involvement in setting of the operational
budget for interconnections.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Thank you for that, and I didn’t mean to
address the question specifically to Mr. Kumar, but as
a group, you do develop budgets and for the test
period?
MS. DASCHUK: A That's right.
Proceeding Time 9:23 a.m. T7
MS. GJOSHE: Q Yes. So, how do you then develop the
budgets for the interconnections group as it pertains
specifically to these third party or indirect
connections? What indicators do you look at to
develop those budgets?
MS. DASCHUK: A So I'll refer you to the application,
section 5A.8.2, which outlines the budgeting process
and the financing of headcount associated with
interconnections. Specifically, to figure 5A.3, which
shows the activities that are undertaken by the
interconnections group. And what I would like to
highlight from figure 5A.3 is that from a year over
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2348
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
year perspective the type work that interconnections
does can vary. So in F17, for example, there were 182
generator interconnection requests, but by the time we
got to F19 there were only 69.
Over the same period of time the number of
transmission and distribution load interconnection
requests increased from 209 to 381. So overall what
I'm looking at is the total volume of work that needs
to be done by the group and whether or not that volume
of work is increasing or decreasing, the types of work
that need to be done and the labour intensity
associated with the different types of work, and
that's how the staffing level has been established.
You'll also note that in the group the
headcount for the group has remained stable. Being
able to redivert staff through cross-training is an
efficient way of being able to maintain a highly
skilled workforce without having to scale up or down
significantly with the changes in volumes in any
particular type of activity.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Thank you for that, Ms. Daschuk. So, if
I heard you correctly, part of what you look at is
trying to figure out whether some of this work load is
increasing or decreasing as you go about your budgets.
What are then your expectations in the second year of
the test period and perhaps beyond it with regard to
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2349
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
the workload for third-party interconnections? Do you
expect that work load to increase or decrease as
compared to the first year of the test period and
probably two, three, four or five years before that?
MS. DASCHUK: A As it relates to the test period, we
are anticipating consistent levels of work within the
interconnections group for both F20 and F21.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Thank you for that. Now, if I may
introduce another aspect to that conundrum, I heard
from panel 3 in the previous sessions that there are
about 130 IPPs interconnected to the BC Hydro system
as we speak, and those developments are relatively
recent in the sense that most of them have been
interconnected since the clean power call.
Now, I understand from Mr. Kumar that you
have no experience at the present with interconnecting
load via third-party IPP owned lines, but what are
your expectations with regard to any such requests
arising in the near future?
MR. KUMAR: A Sorry, could you repeat that question
again?
MS. GJOSHE: Q Yes. So, there's another component of
third-party ownership of transmission and distribution
lines that has come through energy acquisition
processes. And those lines, I believe, they're owned
by the IPPs, is that the case, Mr. Kumar?
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2350
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
Proceeding Time 9:27 a.m. T8
MR. KUMAR: A That is correct.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Yes. So what are your expectations in
the near future about the types and the number of
interconnection requests that you may receive for
interconnecting load through third-party IPP owned
interconnection lines?
MR. KUMAR: A So if I understand the question, you're
talking about an IPP line, existing line, not a load
interconnection existing line?
MS. GJOSHE: Q Yes.
MR. KUMAR: A That situation hasn’t arisen. The three
examples that I've seen for indirect interconnections
have been load interconnection lines and then a new
load customer comes along. Presumably the situation
could be that you have an IPP owned line and a load
interconnection customer comes along. I don't think
that indirect process under Tariff Supplement 6
precludes you from doing that, but that's subject to
check.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Fair enough. I agree with you on that.
That being said, it is -- you're in the business of
forecasting your operational needs. What are you
anticipating in terms of that workload in the near
future?
MR. KUMAR: A So as Ms. Daschuk said, we get numerous
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2351
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
requests from IPP customers and load customers all
through the year and we've actually said that before
and we are on record is saying that our number one
priority is load customers and IPP customer studies.
So if we do get studies with respect to these indirect
interconnections that you're talking about, we will
prioritize our work internally to make sure that we
are able to meet the expectations and the timelines of
the customers.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Thank you for that. Insofar as the
trend as it concerns third-party interconnection
requests, do you expect that growth trend to continue
in general directionally?
MR. KUMAR: A Are you talking about all types of --
MS. GJOSHE: Q All types of, yes.
MS. DASCHUK: A So what we have seen is a decrease in
load interconnection requests related to
cryptocurrency. That's one area where we're
definitely seeing a decrease.
In terms of the future, it's difficult for
us to predict the future because it's really a request
that's coming from our customers. The best
indications that we get are working closely with the
customer group under Keith Anderson and Janet Fraser
to understand their conversations that they're having
with potential customers that have not yet made a
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2352
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
decision to interconnect. And our indications there
are that there should be continued strong demand for
interconnections of various types.
In my previous testimony I gave some
examples of the percentages of interconnection
requests that we are receiving with the single largest
group, 66 percent, I believe, coming from LNG and oil
and gas. Some of the areas where we could see
increased interest is with respect to the
transportation sector. So Port of Victoria, Port of
Metro Vancouver, bus transportation, those are a
series of areas where we're excepting and anticipating
that we'll be needing to provide more support for
interconnections in the future.
MR. KUMAR: A I think the other thing I would like to
add is that we have a pool of planners in BC Hydro
that do various planning endeavours. It could be
IPPs, it could be load, could be planning for our own
system. And based on our experience, for example, in
2008 when we had the Clean Power Call, within a span
of 45 days we had to do 72 studies and that was a
significant undertaking. And if you look at the IPP
group, that couldn't have actually delivered on those
studies, so what we ended up doing was we collapsed
all the planning groups into a single group that was
focussed on just doing the IPP studies for that Clean
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2353
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
Power Call.
Proceeding Time 9:32 a.m. T9
So we do have the ability to actually
mobilize our technical resources in terms of what the
requirements are and how we see the future number of
studies that are coming along, and we do do that on a
periodic basis where we are prioritizing our
resources, making sure that we can deliver on what is
required. And as I have said before, customer
requests whether it is load interconnections or IPPs
are given the highest priority in the planning groups.
We are able to mobilize our teams to deliver on those,
as per the customer expectations.
THE CHAIRPERSON: So when you do that kind of
mobilization, what doesn’t get done? It's at the
expense of something, presumably?
MR. KUMAR: A Absolutely. So what would not get done
during that time would be basically if we are
undertaking area studies for your system that have a
long-term time length required with it. For example,
typically an area study could take two years to do.
So if you have a crunch and you have to finish off
some studies that are time driven, we are actually
able to move those resources without having it too
much of a detrimental impact on some of those long-
term planning studies that we are doing.
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2354
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Thank you, Mr. Kumar. And I understand
that as it concerns the future -- I just have a few
more questions about this topic. It is very hard to
predict, as you say, but often what you are required
probably to do is just based on the information that
you have today, are there any bits and pieces of
information that reside somewhere in your system that
could help you gauge the pace of growth for such
workload?
MS. DASCHUK: A I think we're comfortable with the
staffing levels that we have within the test period.
As Mr. Kumar said, if something were to happen and we
had a surge of demand we would be able to handle that.
As we look forward, and we look into the outcomes of
the integrated resource plan for the developments in
the CleanBC plan, we will get early indications of
changes in the demand that we have for different types
of interconnections. And at that time we would, as a
first priority, try to optimize the staff that we do
have. If that turned out to not be sufficient, then
we would go to the rest of the organization with a
justification for increased staffing, or decreased
staffing, quite frankly, if the load did not
materialize, if the new connections didn't
materialize. That would be beyond the test period
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2355
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
because we are quite comfortable, we have the staff
that we need for now.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Thank you. So a few more questions
then. So given that these third party lines as it
pertains, their ownership by IPPs is a relatively new
phenomena. Could there be some information that you
have collected as part of your interconnection studies
that were conducted for IPP interconnections that
would gauge the extent of the proliferation of the
lines as a result, the extent of the workload that you
might have to do in the future?
MR. KUMAR: A Yes, so as part of our process when we
are doing a system impact study, we expect the load
customers as well as the IPP customers to provide us
with their technical data with respect to their line
impedance, the length of the line, their transformer
configuration, and so forth. So, we do capture that
data as part of our base cases.
So, in my team, we would have all the
history of, and the length of lines for both the load
interconnection customers, as well as for the IPPs.
We do manage that information.
MS. GJOSHE: Q And do you have a summary of that
information, Mr. Kumar? Not for my needs, but for
your own internal needs?
MR. KUMAR: A Absolutely, and one of the things that we
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2356
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
have to actually do as part of due diligence is that
when an IPP -- before an IPP connects to our system,
we actually look at the technical specifications of
their assets to make sure that they are designing and
implementing those assets as per our requirements.
And again, what's paramount for us is that a liability
of the existing system to make sure that that is not
compromised.
So, before an IPP can actually commission,
180 days before that, they've given us all the
technical data for us to make sure it is as per our
specifications. And also as part of the mandatory
reliability standards. The IPPs have to periodically
give us their generation models for us to verify those
generation models to make sure that their models
haven’t changed over the course of the last decade or
two decades since they interconnected.
So there is a lot of due diligence that our
team does in terms of making sure that their
facilities are as per our requirements, and there is
no future changes that happen that could impact our
system detrimentally.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Thank you for that. And my last
question on this topic, is it also then, does it
follow if I follow that line of explanations, does it
follow then that as it concerns this amount of work
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2357
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
that may increase in the future as it concerns third-
party interconnection lines and to the extent that
these lines are owned by third parties, is it fair
then to say that you as an organization won't be
earning as return on assets as it concerns this
component of your work?
Proceeding Time 9:37 a.m. T10
MR. KUMAR: A I think these assets are owned by the
third parties, so they wouldn't be on our books. So I
don't think the rate of return would come into play in
terms of assets that are not owned by us.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Thank you for that. I'll take us to
another question and I believe, Mr. Kumar, this also
concerns some of the comments that were part of your
testimony. And this one goes back to, again,
transcript 11 and it's captured starting on page 1864
and I'll quote it for you so you don't have to refer
to the document. You were talking about growth
projects, there is a component of your testimony which
you were distinguishing between sustained projects and
growth projects, so this concerns the growth projects.
And you said a lot of these projects are actually
built for 50 or 70 years. That's fair to say that
that's a true statement?
MR. KUMAR: A That would be a true statement for some
of the large infrastructure. It wouldn't be true for,
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2358
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
let's say, PNC assets or some of those more telecom
related assets that would have a shorter life, but for
substations and for lines that would be a true
statement.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Yeah, absolutely, and what I was trying
to probably suggest is that probably in some cases
even longer than that, especially if you do the proper
care and maintenance.
MR. KUMAR: A That is correct.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Yes. Now you're talking about these
projects, so in terms of how do you evaluate them once
they're built, so that was the line of questioning.
And I'm going to quote, you said,
"It's not a question of timing it to the point
of where it's one or two years…"
after which the load growth materializes,
"…but a lot of the time the growth of that load
might take longer."
And I agree with you on it. The question
for you is, can you confirm for the record that for
those growth projects that are driven by load growth
expectations, a load growth that materializes earlier
in a project's lifecycle, say in the first decade or
two, is preferable to a load growth that takes, say,
three or four or five decades to materialize?
MR. KUMAR: A I would say that's a fair statement.
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2359
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Okay, thank you. I believe, Mr. Kumar,
I don't mean to continue the conversation, but I think
these other question is for you as well.
I will take you now to another part of your
testimony, one in which you were discussing the study
work that is conducted by both your interconnections
and system planning groups and how important the
learning is to that work that you do in those fronts.
And I believe you were referring to often repetitive
work, but the learning that you amass from that often
repetitive work that you undertake on behalf of
various customers.
MR. KUMAR: A Sorry, is there a question? I couldn't
understand.
MS. GJOSHE: Q I believe, were you're referring to that
learning that you amass from the repetitive work that
you do on behalf of your customers as it concerns
interconnection requests.
MR. KUMAR: A Sorry, what’s the reference of the page?
MS. GJOSHE: Q Well, let me put it this way. I believe
the reference of the page was -- okay, so I don't have
it, but let me put it this way.
When you're talking about some of this work
you did say that a lot of that knowledge that you
learned over time was anecdotal. Is that a word that
you use?
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2360
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
Proceeding Time 9:41 a.m. T11
MR. KUMAR: A I'd have to check the transcript if you
can show me where it is.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Okay. So let me ask the question in a
different way. Is it fair to say that as you go about
work that you do in response to interconnection
requests builds up over a number of years?
MR. KUMAR: A Sorry, builds the experience over a
number of years?
MS. GJOSHE: Q Yes. And your knowledge of the system
as a result of it. And these periods can be long
periods, right?
MR. KUMAR: A I'm not sure I fully understand your
question there. If you are saying that when we are
doing the studies, do we learn how our system is
behaving through the interaction on those studies?
That's absolutely true, because a lot of our planners
that we have hired over the last ten years are young
planners. Through attrition and through retirement
there's a new cadre of planners that have joined. So
as they go through the system impact studies with load
interconnection, the customers or with IPPs, that's
the best way of learning about the system. So
absolutely we've seen a huge growth in the experience
and their ability to actually undertake those studies.
And you have to realize, system planner is
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2361
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
not someone you can actually walk over and get from
some other firm in terms of their ability. You have
to actually nurture them and grow them through the
organization, because they have to understand how the
system behaves. So the more studies that they are
doing and the more interaction they have with their
customer, their experience grows. That's an absolute
true statement.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Yes, and that's where I was heading.
So that it is fair to say that a lot of this system
knowledge that is -- that comes out of these
interconnection studies as it pertains to
interconnection requests, is built up over a long
period of time.
MR. KUMAR: A Absolutely.
MS. GJOSHE: Q And it may reside in your organization
both in the form of a specific knowledge of individual
planners, as well as those interconnection requests
and studies that you conducted for the customers?
MR. KUMAR: A That is correct.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Yes. So is it fair to say then that as
you build up your knowledge of the system, you also
build up your knowledge of the customer, potential
customer and their operations for particular regions
of your system?
MR. KUMAR: A I think as a result of doing those
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2362
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
studies you get an understanding of the customers'
load models, their facilities and the type of load
that they have. That is a fair assessment of -- but I
wouldn't say we are experts on the facilities that the
load customers or the IPP customers are operating. We
have an understanding of what those facilities are,
but our main focus is actually looking at our own
facilities and making sure that we either can take
their generation or some of their load and keep the
reliability of the system going. But we don't have a
complete visibility of their system on a regular
basis. And we don't profess to do that.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Fair enough. That's not where I was
headed. Is it fair to say that some of these
interconnection requests stop after the system impact
study is conducted and some of them don't proceed to
the visibility study case?
MR. KUMAR: A That's a fair statement because a lot of
the study requests would actually stop at the study
case, and not go to the next level.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Yes. So basically they look at it,
they say, "Well, at this point in time I don't think
we're going to go ahead with this."
MR. KUMAR: A That happens.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Yes. So as it concerns that this
information -- and it doesn't have to be detailed.
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2363
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
Can you confirm at least that from these studies you'd
have at least an understanding of the magnitude of the
load, of the customer load, just the magnitude of it?
MR. KUMAR: A Sorry, could you repeat that question?
MS. GJOSHE: Q Is it fair to say that from conducting
the system impact studies, at least you will get a
sense of the magnitude of the customer load? Just the
magnitude of it.
MR. KUMAR: A Are you talking about the studies that
don't proceed to the next level?
MS. GJOSHE: Q Yes. Yes.
MR. KUMAR: A Yes, we do have an indication of what
load request they are looking for, but if they don't
proceed forward with their facility study, from a
system perspective that load as not materialized. So
we do have an understanding. If I look back at all
the LNG studies we have done in the Kitimat region in
the last 12 years, if you add up all that load you
will be talking about thousands of megawatts of load.
Proceeding Time 9:46 a.m. T12
But that load has not materialized. So I
don’t know if there is an implication on the system.
If a proponent doesn’t proceed forward, that study has
been completed and now we look forward to the next
customer's request. So having an indication of what
the load request was is not an impact on our system,
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2364
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
because we haven’t proceeded with interconnecting
them.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Fair enough. But is it fair to say that
-- the question then to you is, organizationally for
you, and I don’t mean just the interconnections group,
are there any obstacles to you repurposing some of
this information that you have collected from
conducting system impact studies? So when the need
arises in that same region on account of new
interconnection requests?
MR. KUMAR: A That would be a difficult thing for us to
do (a) because of confidentiality agreements with the
system impact studies that we have done before. And
also you have to remember that each systems impact
study is very unique. Just because you have a 100
megawatt load request coming on the heels of another
100 megawatt load, and the load levels might be the
same, but the type of machinery that the clients are
using, their load models, all the way they have set up
their system in terms of their transformer
configuration, their PNC requirements, they all could
be very different. So each system impact study is
very unique, and we actually have to look at the
request that the customer is putting forward and go
through that same level of rigor in terms of the
request that the customer is putting forward.
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2365
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
Absolutely we will leverage what we know about our own
system in that area, but each study tends to be very
unique because the load models and the load
requirements of the customers are very different.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Yes, and I can appreciate that. And
what I was trying to get at, say you have a region of
the province where now you have some loads coalescing
with respect to their timing of when they might come
online. Then of the years last decade or two, you
might have information about other customers that
operate in the region that are either self-supplied,
or that in the past may have provided some indications
to you as to what the size of those operations might
be. And I will call this, let's say, lateral interest
in a region.
MR. KUMAR: A Mm-hmm.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Is it fair to say that there are no
obstacles to you repurposing this information for --
in the context of when you are looking in an area to
build new transmission lines?
MS. DASCHUK: A I think you just asked -- did you ask
the same question twice? I'm trying to understand
what is different about the answer that Mr. Kumar --
MS. GJOSHE: Q So let me continue, Ms. Daschuk. Are
you familiar with the term "open season" in the
context of your open access transmission tariff?
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2366
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
MS. DASCHUK: A Yes.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Can you explain a little bit as to what
that is?
MS. DASCHUK: A Sorry, say that again?
MS. GJOSHE: Q Can you please explain a little bit as
to what that process entails?
MS. DASCHUK: A My understanding of an open season
would be to speak to a group of customers that were
interested in a connection, and to work with them to
see if collectively, as opposed to individually, there
could be an interest in building a new line.
MS. GJOSHE: Q And what are some of the ways you could
do that?
MS. DASCHUK: A Can you be more specific about your
question?
MS. GJOSHE: Q By what process may you be able to
achieve that?
MR. KUMAR: A So I think one of the things that we are
looking at, and we have discussed this before, is the
North Montney transmission line that we talked about,
one of the three ex-planned projects that we have
released. It is quite possible as we go forward with
our needs evaluation of that project, for us to have
an open season in the North Montney, to understand
whether there is extra need in terms of the customers
to interconnect to the system. Because typically a
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2367
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
customer would actually come and connect to our system
at a point of interconnection. We won't build our
system to the customer's requirements, but if you have
an open season, Hydro potentially can build a line to
a certain point where there is no service right now,
and then the other customer would actually connect to
that line. We have not done that before in the last
decade, but that is something that we are exploring
right now as part of our endeavor to electrify loads
in the Peace Region, is to have a concept of a
reinforcement, and then test it out with the
customers.
Proceeding Time 9:51 a.m. T13
The mechanics of that I'm not sure I can
talk about, but I'm assuming we actually would have an
announcement that talks about the open season. Our
interconnections and our customer service group would
take the lead on that and reach out to the customers
and say, "We are proposing to move forward with a new
transmission line in this region. Do you have enough
interest for loads in that?" Because if you don't get
enough customers and can justify let's say 250
megawatts of load in North Montney, you will not be
able to build that line.
So I think that's the process we would
follow. We haven't done that in the last five to ten
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2368
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
years that I'm aware of, but we are absolutely going
to be exploring that as we move forward with
electrification focus in the company.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Thank you for that, Mr. Kumar. So that
fair to say that according to the open season
prescription in the Open Access Transmission Tariff,
is it fair to say that it is well within the purview
of a utility like yourselves to initiate a project at
your will if you so will -- at your decision making if
you so will, at any time in your -- as you go about
running your business, is that fair to say?
MR. KUMAR: A Yeah. It's --
MS. GJOSHE: Q That there are no obstacles to you
initiating processes like that?
MR. KUMAR: A I think it's fair to say that we can
initiate a process, but it's also incumbent upon BC
Hydro to make sure that we manage our risk. We would
not move forward with a project without an indication
from the customers that there's an intent for them to
interconnect to the system. We are talking about
hundreds of millions of dollars to build a line and
unless we have a commitment from the customers, we are
not going to move forward at that speculative
approach.
As I think Mr. O'Riley talked about when he
was on Panel 1 that building a transmission
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2369
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
infrastructure is very different than a germination
infrastructure. You can have a generation plan and
even though the load may not materialize, you can
actually use that generation for many, many different
reasons. Whereas if you build a transmission line and
the load doesn't materialize, you actually have a sunk
cost, because it's a linear asset focusing on one area
as opposed to a generation asset. So we have to be
very careful that we are actually able to evaluate the
risk and the benefit we are going to get through this.
And as I said, we have scoped out the
project, now it's with Ms. Holland's group to move
forward with it. We will be looking at discussing
that with the customers. And if the load does
materialize, we'll be spending money towards the next
phase of the project.
MS. GJOSHE: Q Thank you for that, Mr. Kumar. And
since you're talking about the northeast, the Peace
Region and the North Montney, is it fair to say that
if you were to initiate, say, a process like an open
season perhaps to gauge this lateral interest in the
project --, lateral interest in the project, in
addition to what you might consider core interest in
it, that the two processes in this particular case, a
prescribed undertaking and/or an open season can
cohabitate, can be complementary to each other?
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2370
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
MR. KUMAR: A I'm not sure I understand the different
between core and lateral, if you would explain that?
MS. GJOSHE: Q So say in the North Montney you have a
number of interconnection requests or you've had in
the past that are coalescing as it concerns their
timing for their needs, and let me call that for lack
of a better word "core". And then as you go about
canvassing some more lateral interest in that area, is
it fair to assume that that canvassing could be
complementary to the work that it's being advanced
under, say, the form of a prescribed undertaking?
MR. GHIKAS: So, Mr. Chairman, I think this is a legal
one, so I can say at this point that the prescribed
undertaking, the regulations dealing with prescribed
undertakings are not drafted so as to distinguish
between the way in which certain projects are
initiated as, for example, if they're in an open
season or otherwise. So the regulation doesn't
distinguish, if that helps Ms. Gjoshe.
MS. GJOSHE: That does help a lot, so thank you for that.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yeah.
MS. GJOSHE: Well, if that's the case, I'll leave it at
that for that line of questioning.
Now, Mr. Chair, we are at five to 10:00.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, we'll take a break then.
MS. GJOSHE: Yeah.
-
BC Hydro – F2020-F2021 Revenue Requirements Proceedings – March 2, 2020 – Volume 13 Page: 2371
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
Allwest Reporting Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
THE CHAIRPERSON: We’ll come back at five past 10:00.
Thank you.
MS. GJOSHE: Thank you.
(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 9:55 A.M.)
(PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 10:05 A.M.) T14/15
THE CHAIRPERSON: Pleas be seated, thanks.
And, Ms. Gjoshe, we'll try -- I know we're
going to break for lunch at 11:30 but we'll try to
take another break before then, maybe around ten to
eleven or so, if you're still --
MS. GJOSHE: Yes, I'll keep that in mind. Yeah.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MS. GJOSHE: Q If I may take the panel now to Exhibit
B-17, Information Request Gjoshe 3.14.0. I'll allow
you some time to get there.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what was the number, 3 point?
MS. GJOSHE: Q 14.0. 3.14. And actually there were