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Composer in Interview: Pierre BoulezAuthor(s): Simon Mawhinney and Pierre BoulezReviewed work(s):Source: Tempo, New Series, No. 216 (Apr., 2001), pp. 2-5Published by: Cambridge University PressStable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/946725 .

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SimonMawhinney

Composer in Interview: Pierre Boulez

(This conversation ook place in London on 25

January 000)

SIMON MAWHINNEY: Your arecurrently onductinga seasonofperformancesith the LondonSymphony

Orchestra,n a seriesof 'discoveryoncerts' hichaimto assistaudiencesn approaching0th centurymusic.

Among the variedrepertoireshat you will be per-

forming,you haveincluded neof you smaller ieces,the Originelfrom ...explosante-fixe... . Why did

youchoose hispiece?PIERRE BOULEZ: Well, because there was no

other piece to perform!I would have liked to do

...explosante-fixe..., but it was too expensive. As

you know, in addition to these four concerts in

London, we aretouring in many other cities. To

bring all the extra equipment would augmentthe cost enormously. Therefore, I took just the

Originelbecause that's the only section which

can be performed with electronics or without

electronics. (The electronics arejust an echo of

the instrumentalpart.)SM: ...explosante-fixe... began its existence as afew

pagesofbasicmaterialwhichyourealizedn 1974. A

versionof the 'original',Memoriale, appearedn

1985 and a furtherversionor flute and electronics

appearedn 1989. Thepresent ersionwascompleted

in 1993. How wouldyou trace he various tagesofthe work'sevolution?

PB:The first version was written after the death

of Stravinsky, because Tempomagazine did a

homage to Stravinskywith 'canonic' writing.

Why the idea of canonic writing, I don'tknow,but I was certainly not interested in writingcanons. I think it is something which is tied to a

style and not to be transposed.It can, however,

be transformed, and therefore I wrote a kind

of 'diagram', which was my idea of canonic

'thinking', rather than canonic 'writing'. So youcould take any order - al that was indicated byarrows- and it moved from one note to more

complicated figures. And why 'fix'? Because

every instrument should have been in a fixed

register.You can have all registerscoincide, or

you can have as many registers as there are

instruments.The firstversionwas writtenin 1972

and was for three instruments.LaterI thought of

a work for as many parts as there were small

units in the original.The resulting piece was for

flute, clarinet, trumpet, three strings, harp and

vibraphone- with electronics.

This version did not work very well. The

technology at this time was much too simple,and

too difficult to manipulaterapidly.Moreover, I

did not previously realize that if you have an

interactionbetween two instruments,you cannot

have the two textures too complex. One can be

complex - with differentspeedsand so on - and

the other has to be quite simple. Two complex

parts together creates encounters of such

complexity that the result is terriblyaleatoric.

However, I alwayshad the idea to take one of

these partsand make a work out of it. At this

time it was the beginning of IRCAM, and we

had a flautistwho was very eagerto experiment.

Therefore,I beganto studythe possibilitiesof the

flute. And then he died, and I wrote Memoriale

for a concert we had in his memory. Later I

developed the idea and technique of the inter-

action between flute and electronics.I took three

big formantsfirst - maybe I will do the other

formants, but I am less sure now because youcannot listen to a solo flute for an hour, or an

hour and a half. So I think these formants result

in a work which is perfectly homogeneous and

long enough for the time being.SM: Would hesuccessivemovementsccupyhe same

dimensions,hirteenofifteenminutes?

PB:VI will be quite long, but IV, III and II will

be much shorter.

SM: Yourformal thinking is very muchconcernedwith

theproliferationof material. ...explosante-fixe..., for

example,is builtfrom the tiling together f diverse

structurallocks, achwith theirowndefining harac-

teristicsuchas tempo, egisterrdynamics.fwetake,

say,TransitoireVII, andyoucome obeginheprocess

of composition,do you have no idea of thefinalstructuralhape that s tosay, is it aprocess f tilingwhichcanproliferatendefinitely or do you have a

conscious/subconsciouswarenessf thefinal lengthoftheworkas you begin?PB: Yes, more or less. When I decided to do

...explosante-fixe...or flutesolo, I adopteda method

which was very importantto me. I transformed

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Composern Interview: ierreBoulez 3

the flute solo for all the formants. They are all

ready. So therefore, if one day I want to take

one month, or two months, andjust do that, I

can do formantII or formantIIIbecause the text

for the flute is completelyprepared.I can modifythe text, for instance with some inserts,and with

other instruments. It is not a rigid text, but it is

there. And so I know approximately he number

of pagesalready!SM: The ensembleyou use is identical o that in

Repons. Howeveryou are knownfor consistently

developingewensembles ndtimbres.What edyouto usethe samegroupagain?PB: Because it is the group of Ensemble

Intercontemporain, and I wanted to establish

repertoirefor them. And anyway you can notice

that Repons s full of percussion and pianos and

so on, and on the contrary ..explosante-fixe...as

absolutely nothing of this kind. I wanted verymuch not to repeatthis use of percussiveinstru-

ments. The piano was the first nstrument I tried

with the electronics. With the piano, the sound

is comparatively easy to transform.And also if

you want to trigger something, the midi systemis very safe. You don't have to worry. The flute

was much more complicated. At the

beginningthe pitch detection systemwas working once in

ten times. Then we improved that quite a lot,and for now the flutesystem s very safe. I wanted

to insist on finding the solution for the flute.

Like I did recently for the violin in Anthemes2.

SM:In Transitoire V of ...explosante-fixe..., the

threeviolinsassumea greatermportance;ndeedyou

placethemtowards he top of the score,next to the

flutes. What edyou topromotehem n thismanner?

PB: I wanted each formant to bring out an

instrument or group of instruments. So youhave the two flutes in formantVII, you have the

three violins in formant V, although the two

flutesare stillvery important,and in Originel ouhave the cello solo, which is very important.

They distractthe attention from the flute. And

if I do other formants they will each have a

group of instruments with great importance, so

that attention is not completely focused on the

flute but on the contrary with the groups

becoming more and more important.SM:Thesu!faceexturesftheworkareoften xtremelydense, even wilfullyso. For example,at rehearsal

number in TransitorireV, thereare twotrumpets,eachplaying hesamepitches which oinciden rhyth-mic erms) ndyet theyarearticulatedquitediferently.Thefunctionof thisprocedures clearly o increasethe densityof the music.What is the roleof densityin thispiece?PB: I call this illusion.There are two kinds of

writing for a group. You can write a 'voice' for

an instrument, or you can do what Schoenbergand Webern did, that is, you have a voice and

then you change the timbre - a violin here, a

trumpetthere-

youknow,

klanfarbenmelodie.ut

the voice is still one voice, and I find that rather

limitingon the imagination.Forme, the problemis that you don't have any perspective. And the

perspective is interesting; if you have the same

basic text, but a differentway of conceiving it,and then you superimposeit. I use that also for

chambermusic, and also in Reponsquite a lot. It

happensmuch more in Notations it's based on

that practically!SM:I amfascinatedby the interactions etween he

flute, theensemble ndtheelectronics,nd it seems o

me thatthe ensemble nd the electronicsork owards

the same ends. They vary theflute material, hey

modify t, they analyse t, and therefore uring he

courseof the piece sometimesyou hear successive

variationsfthematerialresentedimultaneously.o

in onesensethe musicanalysestself.PB: I don't think differentlyfor electronics and

instruments.The methods areobviouslydifferent,but the way of conceiving the musical space is

exactly the same. Electronics are really an

expansionof the instrumentalworld. I can have

microintervalswhich areimpossiblewith instru-

ments, or, for instance,a change in the spectrumwhich would be otherwise impossible. I call that

transgression. ou transgressthe limits of the

instruments,but you don't replace the gesture,becausefor me the gestureof the instrumentalist

is really necessary.When I was younger I wrote

or conducted some pieces which involved

performing with tape. Then the performer is

blocked by being in synchronization with the

tape.So the

gesturewas not there

anymore.And

you know, the performerhas in front of him a

score with quantities- metresand so on - but is

there to distort the quantity, and to make a

gesture out of the quantity which brings other

quantities an accelerandoor crescendowith an

accent - brings some modification in the score.

But if you work with electronics you can onlywork with quantities, and then you have no

gesture. What is interesting about electronics is

the interaction of performer and technology -

when the gesture is modifiedby non-gesture.SM:Notwithstandinghe possibilitiesof electronics,

there renotnotatedmicrointervalsn thescore.What

areyourcurrent iewsaboutmicrointervalsn instru-mentalmusic?

PB: In instrumental music, I don't really trust

microintervals. wouldn't saythat it is connectedwith musicaleducationbecauseyou can respondthat eduction can be changed; but I think that

the instrumentsand fingersarenot suited. If you

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4 Composern Interview: ierreBoulez

y-noVtt

Loturtesy uJ univaV t l LUt LrLnLoanuurtL

tau.

are in the high registerof the violin, you alreadyhave microintervals!If you want to change the

tuning - with the piano for example - then the

tension in the stringsis not safe. I used that onlyin Pli selonPli with the harps. I had two harpswith microintervals,but it was only for a short

period of time. If you re-tune the harp in a dif-

ferent way, after a quarterof an hour the tuningis completely gone! Therefore, microintervals

have to be very precise, otherwise why write

them? With electronics you can do it either by

changing the spectrum, or harmonizing with

different types of chord - you can subtractby

any kind of interval.You canprepareyour scales,and can trigger something, or push a button, and

then you have a completely new scale, which is

absolutelyimpossible on instruments. Therefore

that is much more accurate and second, with

much more variety.SM: And how wouldyou comparehe harmonicroce-duresof your recentworks with your early music?

PB: I think I have more control now. SomethingI find difficult in a lot of Schoenberg, and with

Webern in the Trio,is the presence of a lot of

counterpoint without any kind of vertical

control. In Schoenberg, for example, you mighthave a horizontal of four pitches, and then a

chord of another four pitches, and that's

absolutely not natural. It's complementary, but

at the same time it is not harmonically comple-

mentary just because you decide that! With

Webern you find this also. In the SecondCantata,for instance, he tries to control the vertical

relationships.It was a very importantfirst.Even

in the Concertoop.24, you have only these three

intervals, and it always results in the same very

simple harmonic feature. It's much more refined

in the SecondCantata. For instance, the aria in

the bass (first movement), you have practically

always the same chord, but with different com-

binations of intervals. With Schoenberg, when

he reinstatesa kind of psuedo-tonality like in the

Ode to Napoleon,one finds the preoccupation of

how to combine harmonyand counterpoint;that

was also my problem certainly,and therefore in

Repons here are some placeswhere the harmonyis stronger hanthe counterpoint.But the counter-

point is there anyway. And in Sur Incises, t is

very obvious. You have an object, and then youcan deduce further objects, hearing them in

different ways, despite their complexity. You

hear the relationships through a big chord and

you hearthat, definitely. In the second half of

Sur Incisesyou have quite a lot of changing

rhythms which are moving, augmenting and

diminishingand so on; but the top note is always

the same. The chord changes but the noteremains the same, and you notice that immedi-

ately. Although you cannot listen to the detail of

it, you arecompletely guided by harmony.SM: Is it possiblethat your more recent harmonic

thinking s guided by the perception of harmonic

structures,whereas n your earlierwork you were

working n a muchmore heoretical asis?

PB:Yes, certainly, I benefited very much from

performing.Because I know what you can hear

and what you cannot hear.

SM: Youonce tated hat oneofyourcentral imswasto bringdownthe barrier etweencomposernd audi-

ence.How wouldyou assess...explosante-fixe... in

thisrespect?PB:This is a piece which I have performed, not

a thousandimes, but each time I performedit, it

was very well received! Especially the last one

which is very attractive,of course. VII is the most

difficult,or the most complex. V is alreadymore

simple and Originel s very simple. In Originelthe range of dynamic is completely reduced.

Consider the flute part- for eight minutes thereare only seven notes. I had thought that this

would be too long, but it actually works well

because the materialwhich goes with it changesthe perspective in which you hear the same

notes. And you also have the E flat which is

always present. In the other formantsyou have

a polarization between E flat and A, a kind of

polarization usefrequentlyas a contrastwhen the

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Composern Interview: ierreBoulez 5

harmonies are changing rapidly. Sometimes the

textures are changing rapidlybut the harmonic

structuredoes not change. You are puzzled by

the fact that it goes very quick and yet you heara static effect.

SM:And thefactthatyouareworkingwithgroupsof

say,sevenpitches,s notable.Theharmonicossibilitiesaregreatlyreduced incethe days whenpieceswere

consistentlyworkingwith thefull chromaticange.

Again,thismightbe connectedith the issueofpercep-

tion; he mindmore asily rasps harmonicframeworkwhichutilizessevenpitchesrather han twelve.

PB: For me, when you have all these polemicson tonality, 'back to tonality' and so on, that's

not importantfor me. What is importantis howyou can rely on your ear. There are two ways.Either you have the same function, or you have

an object you don't need to analyse any more.

For instance if you have a line with parallel

chords,the chord can be ascomplex asyou want.

If you have a parallel line like that, then you

immediately hear the result. But if you changethe chord each time, you don't know what to

follow exactly, because you have to analysethe

object, and then by the time you analyse it's

gone already.So you can never predict and youcan never remember. And that is the point where

you just give up.SM: You haveproduced 1999 version f Repons.Is this thefinal version?

PB:Repons s conceived as a spiral.It was alwaysconceived as a spiral.And I did not have time

last year, but next year I will have a twelve-

month sabbatical so I can work in IRCAM.

Since 81-84 the technology has changed enor-

mously, and I would like to use the technology

as of now. I still have quite a lot of sketches forReponswhich are unused! With the technology

you can do so much more than before because

the pitch detectionsystemis absolutely olid now.

And also the software is much more supple and

flexible, and can work completely independently

for all the instruments. In the 84 version, youhave a 'stupid' programme, let's say - but now

we have more 'intelligent' programmes.

SM: Over recent ears,scholarsuch asJean-JacquesNattiez and LawrenceKramerhave beensubjectingmusical texts to a muchwiderrange of analytical

techniques, angingrom semiotics ogenderstudies.

Wouldyou be interestedo read the resultsof such

inquiryntoyourown works?

PB:Yes and no! Because I am not especiallynar-

cissistic, and I am not interested in looking at

analysesof my own music. There was a periodin my life when I was constantly analysing,but

I could not stick it for very long. When I was

teaching I had to analysevarious works, and IanalysedWozzeck and Debussy's Etudes n greatdetail, but now I could not do that! I have the

samerelationshipwith my own work, but I have

always said that if people discover themselvesn

my work, then that is all right. I give permissionto publish anything.But reading them myself I

am less enthusiastic,I must say.SM: Can you providedetailsof any ongoing rojects?PB: I will first finish Notations. That's my first

worry,because the sketchesarethere, and I want

to get rid of it. I know what I want to do. Thereare five of them and I have seven still to finish.

SM:And a workfor Anne-Sophievon Mutter?

PB: Yes, that is also a futureproject.But it will be

an Anthemes 3. It is interesting to have an

Anthemes or solo violin, and an Anthemes with

electronics. And then Anthemes 3 will be the

same length I suppose but with orchestra this

time.

SM:Finally,doyouhaveany hopesorfears oncerning

thefutureof composition?

PB: I have no fears, really. But I am amazedsometimes that some people are so tired, and

thinking they are 'new' try to find all kinds of

compromise, using the oldest recipesof the past.I am surprised hat some people don't go further

thanreallytrivial oals.That I cannotunderstand.

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