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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

--------------------------x FAHMI AL-ASSANI, ET AL, Docket No. CA 05-280

Petitioners, v. Washington, D.C.

January 5, 2010 1:30 p.m. ***SECRET***

BARACK OBAMA, ET AL, Respondents.

---------------------------X MERITS HEARING - TESTIMONY OF SULElMAN AL-NAHDI

BEFORE THE HONORABLE GLADYS KESSLER UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

APPEARANCES: For the Petitioner: SUTHERLAND, ASBILL & BRENNAN, L.L.P. FAHMI AL-ASSANI By: Ms. Kristin B. Wilhelm

Ms. Sara J. Toering 999 Peachtree Street, N.E. Atlanta, GA 30309 404.853.8000 [email protected] [email protected]

SUTHERLAND ASBILL & BRENNAN, L.L.P. By: Mr. Richard G. Murphy, Jr.

Mr. Brian C. Spahn AT GTMO FACILITY 1275 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20004 202.383.0832 [email protected] [email protected]

For the Respondents: U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE By: Mr. J. Hunter Bennett

Mr. Patrick D. Davis Ms. Mary E. Carney Mr. Stephen L. Scher Mr. Sean W. O'Donnell Mr. Christopher Burch

20 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20530 202.305.4880 [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] sean.o'[email protected] chris5~~~·[email protected]


Case 1:05-cv-00280-GK Document 543 Filed 01/29/10 of 61


1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

2 --------------------------x

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FAHMI AL-ASSANI, ET AL, Docket No. CA 05-280

v.

BARACK OBAMA, ET AL,

Petitioners, Washington, D.C. Januaxy 5, 2010 1:30 p.m. ***SECRET***

6 Respondents. ---------------------------X

7 MERITS HEARING - TESTIMONY OF SULElMAN AL-NAHDI BEFORE THE HONORABLE GLADYS KESSLER

8 UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

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APPEARANCES: For the Petitioner: FAHMI AL-ASSANI

SUTHERLAND, ASBILL & BRENNAN, L.L.P. By: Ms. Kristin B. Wilhelm

Ms. Sara J. Toering 999 Peachtree Street, N.E. Atlanta, GA 30309 404.853.8000 [email protected] [email protected]

SUTHERLAND ASBILL & BRENNAN, L.L.P. By: Mr. Richard G. Murphy, Jr.

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15 Mr. Brian C. Spahn AT GTMO FACILITY

1275 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20004

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202.383.0832 [email protected] [email protected]

18 For the Respondents: U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

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By: Mr. J. Hunter Bennett Mr. Patrick D. Davis Ms. Mary E. Carney Mr. Stephen L. Scher Mr. Sean W. O'Donnell Mr. Christopher Burch

20 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20530 202.305.4880 [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] [email protected] sean.o'[email protected] chris5~~i·[email protected]


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APPEARANCES: (CONT'D)

SJA ATTORNEY: - AT GTMO FACILITY

Interpreters: MASUD HASNAIN, AT GTMO FACILITY

Court Reporter: Catalina Kerr, RPR, CRR U.S. District Courthouse Room 6716 Washington, D.C. 20001 202.354.3258 [email protected]

Proceedings recorded by mechanica~ stenography, transcript

produced by computer.

*-*-*-*-*

CON TEN T S

WITNESS: DIRECT CROSS

Su1eiman A1-Nahdi By Mr. Spahn 9 By Mr. Davis 38

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1 APPEARANCES: (CONT'D)

2 SJA ATTORNEY; - AT GTMO FACILITY

3 Interpreters:

4 Court Reporter:

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MASUD HASNAIN, AT GTMO FACILITY

Catalina Kerr, RPR, CRR U.S. District Courthouse Room 6716 Washington, D.C. 20001 202.354.3258 [email protected]

9 Proceedings recorded by mechanica~ stenography, transcript

10 produced by computer.

11 *-*-*-*-*

12 CON TEN T S

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WITNESS:

Su1eiman A1-Nahdi By Mr. Spahn By Mr. Davis

DIRECT CROSS

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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

(1:30 P.M.; SEALED COURTROOM.)

THE COURT: Good afternoon, everybody. I see we

have a lot of visitors this afternoon. This is CA 05-280,

Al-Assani versus Barack Obama.

We are going to hear testimo~y this afternoon from

Mr. Al-Adahi (sic). I want to make sure, since these are

closed proceedings, is there anyone in the courtroom who does

not have the appropriate and necessary clearance?

MS. PETERSON: Your Honor, everyone in the room has

the appropriate security clearance.

THE COURT: All right. Thank you very mUCh. And

then, for the record, that was one of our CSO's. All counsel

are present.

Mr. Murphy, do you want to proceed at this point, or

Ms. Wilhelm? I guess it's Mr. Murphy.

MR. BENNETT: Your Honor, before we start, can I

just take care of one clerical issue. I'd like to reintroduce

to the Court our translator in the case, Your

Honor.

is a native of Egypt who has lived in the

United States for the last 25 years. He's been certified by

the United states Army as an Arabic linguist for both verbal

and spoken tra~slations, and in fact, he was just recertified

last week by the Mission Essential, Incorporated.

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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (1:30 P.M.; SEALED COURTROOM.)

3 THE COURT: Good afternoon, everybody. I see we

4 have a lot of visitors this afternoon. This is CA 05-280,

5 Al-Assani versus Barack Obama.

6 We are going to hear testimo~y this afternoon from

7 Mr. Al-Adahi (sic). I want to make sure, since these are

8 closed proceedings, is there anyone in the courtroom who does

9 not have the appropriate and necessary clearance?

10 MS. PETERSON: Your Honor, everyone in the room has

11 the appropriate security clearance.

12 THE COURT: All right. Thank you very much. And

13 then, for the record, that was one of our CSO's. All counsel

14 are present.

15 Mr. Murphy, do you want to proceed at this point, or

16 Ms. Wilhelm? I guess it's Mr. Murphy.

17 MR. BENNETT: Your Honor, before we start, can I

18 just take care of one clerical issue. I'd like to reintroduce

19 to the Court our translator in the case, Your

20 Honor.

21 is a native of Egypt who has lived in the

22 United States for the last 25 years. He's been certified by

23 the United states Army as an Arabic linguist for both verbal

24 and spoken tra~slations, and in fact, he was just recertified

25 last week by the Mission Essential, Incorporated.


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And the role that is going to play, he's

going to monitor the testimony and just make sure that he

believes that everything is being translated consistent with

his understanding. And if he notices any discrepancies, we've

asked him to raise his hand, and we would ask the Court to

stop at that point just so that we can clarify for the record

whether there's any confusion.

THE COURT: All right. That's similar to the

maybe identical to the procedure we followed in another case.

And on that topic, let me -- Don't go away,

Mr. Bennett, please. Are all procedures in place for the

videotaping of this testimony?

MR. BENNETT: My understanding is that they are,

Your Honor. We're videotaping on this end, correct?

THE COURT: Well, I'm not going to hold Mr. Cramer

accountable. He's a court employee.

MR. BENNETT: Your Honor, this is the -- this is the

backup procedure, Your Honor. Can we confirm that the

videotape is running down at Guantanamo?

MR. SPAHN: We're getting the thumbs up here.

MR. BENNETT: You're getting the thumbs up?

MR. SPAHN: Yes.

MR. BENNETT: Okay. It looks like we are in fact

recording on both ends, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Murphy, would you please

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1 And the role that is going to play, he's

2 going to monitor the testimony and just make sure that he

3 believes that everything is being translated consistent with

4 his understanding. And if he notices any discrepancies, we've

5 asked him to raise his hand, and we would ask the Court to

6 stop at that point just so that we can clarify for the record

7 whether there's any confusion.

8 THE COURT: All right. That's similar to the

9 maybe identical to the procedure we followed in another case.

10 And on that topic, let me -- Don't go away,

11 Mr. Bennett, please. Are all procedures in place for the

12 videotaping of this testimony?

l3 MR. BENNETT: My understanding is that they are,

14 Your Honor. We're videotaping on this end, correct?

15 THE COURT: Well, I'm not going to hold Mr. Cramer

16 accountable. He's a court employee.

17 MR. BENNETT: Your Honor, this is the -- this is the

18 backup procedure, Your Honor. Can we confirm that the

19 videotape is running down at Guantanamo?

20 MR. SPAHN: We're getting the thumbs up here.

21 MR. BENNETT: You're getting the thumbs up?

22 MR. SPAHN: Yes.

23 MR. BENNETT: Okay. It looks like we are in fact

24 recording on both ends, Your Honor.

25 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Murphy, would you please

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1 proceed.

2 MR. MURPHY: I will, Your Honor. First, let me

3 reintroduce to the Court my partner Kristin Wilhelm whom you

4 have met before.

5 THE COURT: I have.

6 MR. MURPHY: The direct examination in this matter

7 will be conducted by my colleague, Brian Spahn, who is at the

8 base with Mr. AI-Nahdi, and the interpreter who will be

9 working with Mr. Spahn is Mr. Masud Hasnain who you may

10 remember was in the courtroom during Mr. AI-Adahi's hearing.

11 He was at this end at that time, and with that I would ask

12 Mr. Spahn to proceed.

13 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Spahn, please.

14 MR. BENNETT: I'm sorry, Your Honor.

15 MR. SPAHN: Good afternoon.

16 THE COURT: Excuse me, Mr. Spahn.

17 MR. BENNETT: One more item I should have brought to

18 the Court's attention. We also have someone down at

19 Guantanamo who's in the room as we did in the AI-Adahi

20 testimony just monitoring the proceedings down there.

21 I'm just making sure that there's nothing unusual

22 going on, and we've instructed that person to object if they

23 notice anything unusual.

24 THE COURT: Is that person a lawyer?

25 MR. BENNETT: Yes. My understanding is they are,

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1 proceed.

2 MR. MURPHY: I will, Your Honor. First, let me

3 reintroduce to the Court my partner Kristin Wilhelm whom you

4 have met before.

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6

THE COURT: I have.

MR. MURPHY: The direct examination in this matter

7 will be conducted by my colleague, Brian Spahn, who is at the

8 base with Mr. AI-Nahdi, and the interpreter who will be

9 working with Mr. Spahn is Mr. Masud Hasnain who you may

10 remember was in the courtroom during Mr. AI-Adahi's hearing.

11 He was at this end at that time, and with that I would ask

12 Mr. Spahn to proceed.

13 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Spahn, please.

14 MR. BENNETT: I'm sorry, Your Honor.

15 MR. SPAHN: Good afternoon.

16 THE COURT: Excuse me, Mr. Spahn.

17 MR. BENNETT: One more item I should have brought to

18 the Court's attention. We also have someone down at

19 Guantanamo who's in the room as we did in the AI-Adahi

20 testimony just monitoring the proceedings down there.

21 I'm just making sure that there's nothing unusual

22 going on, and we've instructed that person to object if they

23 notice anything unusual.

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THE COURT: Is that person a lawyer?

MR. BENNETT: Yes. My understanding is they are,


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Your Honor. Is that person in the room?

Yes. I'm not on camera. I am_

from Joint Task Force Guantanamo Bay in the JUdge

Advocate's office.

MR. BENNETT: And you are in fact a lawyer, correct?

MS. BIGGINS: I am indeed.

MR. BENNETT: Thank you.

THE COURT: All right. I think we're ready to

proceed now, Mr. Spahn. Are you with us?

MR. SPAHN: I am, Your Honor. Brian Spahn for

Peti tioner.

THE COURT: All right. As you probably can tell

from a monitor down there, I can't see you. I can see only

your client at this point, and I suppose your client has as

narrow a vision of our courtroom as I do of your facility

because I can see mirrored in back of him the image from this

courtroom, which is a very strange arrangement, but in any

event, let's proceed, Mr. Spahn.

MR. SPAHK: And that's correct, Your Honor. We can

see you when you access your mic, and then we can see the

courtroom when anyone is speaking at the podium.

THE COURT: I see. All right.

MR. SPAHN: And I'm going to stay off camera unless

you would like to see me while I'm conducting direct

examination.

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1 Your Honor. Is that person in the room?

2 Yes. I'm not on camera. I am_

3 from Joint Task Force Guantanamo Bay in the Judge

4 Advocate's office.

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MR. BENNETT: And you are in fact a lawyer, correct?

MS. BIGGINS: I am indeed.

MR. BENNETT: Thank you.

THE COORT: All right. I think we're ready to

9 proceed now, Mr. Spahn. Are you with us?

10 MR. SPAHN: I am, Your Honor. Brian Spahn for

11 Peti tioner.

12 THE COURT: All right. As you probably can tell

13 from a monitor down there, I can't see you. I can see only

14 your client at this point, and I suppose your client has as

15 narrow a vision of our courtroom as I do of your facility

16 because I can see mirrored in back of him the image from this

17 courtroom, which is a very strange arrangement, but in any

18 event, let's proceed, Mr. Spahn.

19 MR. SPAHK: And that's correct, Your Honor. We can

20 see you when you access your mic, and then we can see the

21 courtroom when anyone is speaking at the podium.

22 THE COURT: I see. All right.

23 MR. SPAHN: And I'm going to stay off camera unless

24 you would like to see me while I'm conducting direct

25 examination.

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THE COURT: No, we can focus on your client. That's

fine.

MR. SPAHN: Very well. We will proceed then.

BY MR. SPAHN:

Q Good afternoon.

A Good afternoon.

Q Would you please state your name for the record.

THE COURT: Excuse me, everybody. Just a minute.

MR. MURPHY: All right. If I may, Your Honor, the

witness has not been sworn. I think we did want him -

THE COURT: Absolutely. Thank you very much.

THE DEPUTY CLERK: Sir, can you please raise your

hand.

THE COURT: Right hand.

THE DEPUTY CLERK: Sir, do you solemnly affirm that

the testimony you're about to give today in this proceeding

will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

THE WITNESS: I affirm.

THE DEPUTY CLERK: Sir, can you please state your

name for the record.

THE WITNESS: Shall I put my hand down?

THE DEPUTY CLERK: Thank you.

MR. BENNETT: Your Honor, we would ask the

interpreter be sworn in as well.

THE WITNESS: Suleiman Ala Suleiman Al-Nahdi.




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1 THE COURT: No, we can focus on your client. That's

2 fine.

3 MR. SPAHN: Very well. We will proceed then.

4 BY MR. SPAHN:

5 Q Good afternoon.

6 A Good afternoon.

7 Q Would you please state your name for the record.

8 THE COURT: Excuse me, everybody. Just a minute.

9 MR. MURPHY: All right. If I may, Your Honor, the

10 witness has not been sworn. I think we did want him --

11 THE COURT: Absolutely. Thank you very much.

12 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Sir, can you please raise your

13 hand.

14 THE COURT: Right hand.

15 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Sir, do you solemnly affirm that

16 the testimony you're about to give today in this proceeding

17 will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

18 THE WITNESS: I affirm.

19 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Sir, can you please state your

20 name for the record.

21 THE WITNESS: Shall I put my hand down?

22 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Thank you.

23 MR. BENNETT: Your Honor, we would ask the

24 interpreter be sworn in as well.

25 THE WITNESS: Suleiman Ala Suleiman AI-Nahdi.

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THE DEPUTY CLERK: Sir, the interpreter, can you

please raise your hand.

THE INTERPRETER: Yes.

TilE DEPUTY CLERK: Sir, do you solemnly affirm that

you'll well and truly interpret the proceedings before you, so

help you God.

MR. HASNAIN: Yes, I do.

THE DEPUTY CLERK: Can you please state your name

for the record.

MR. HASNAIN: Masud Hasnain.

THE DEPUTY CLERK: Thank you.

MR. BENNETT: Your Honor

MR. SPAHN: Mr. Suleiman, would you like me to

address you as -

THE COURT: Excuse me a minute. Mr. Bennett, yes.

MR. BENNETT: Your Honor, has indicated

that the interpreter down at Guantanamo is speaking very fast.

THE COURT: He is.

MR. BENNETT: And he needs to speak a little bit

slower so that can follow along. We would greatly

appreciate it.

THE COURT: Also, the audio is not perfect, and I

see heads shaking. Everyone down there, please, should speak

more slowly. The audio is a little muffled and so it's hard

to follow what everybody is saying.




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1 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Sir, the interpreter, can you

2 please raise your hand.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.

4 TilE DEPUTY CLERK: Sir, do you solemnly affirm that

5 you'll well and truly interpret the proceedings before you, so

6 help you God.

7 MR. HASNAIN: Yes, I do.

8 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Can you please state your name

9 for the record.

10 MR. HASNAIN: Masud Hasnain.

11 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Thank you.

12 MR. BENNETT: Your Honor

13 MR. SPAHN: Mr. Suleiman, would you like me to

14 address you as --

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THE COURT: Excuse me a minute. Mr. Bennett, yes.

MR. BENNETT: Your Honor, has indicated

17 that the interpreter down at Guantanamo is speaking very fast.

18 THE COURT: He is.

19 MR. BENNETT: And he needs to speak a little bit

20 slower so that can follow along. We would greatly

21 appreciate it.

22 THE COURT: Also, the audio is not perfect, and I

23 see heads shaking. Everyone down there, please, should speak

24 more slowly. The audio is a little muffled and so it's hard

25 to follow what everybody is saying.


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Mr. Spahn, ask your first question, please.

SULEIMAN AL-NAHDI,

having been duly sworn, through interpreter, testified as

follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. SPAHN:

Q Suleiman, how old are you?

A 36 years old.

Q Where are you from?

A Yemen.

Q What part of Yemen?

A South of Yemen, Hadhramaut.

Q Were you in the military in Yemen?

A Yes.

Q Tell me about your experience in the Yemeni military.

A I do not have any job and circumstances were difficult.

In Yemen, a person join a police force only if he has no other

opportunities to try, and construction job are difficult to be

found, therefore I decided to join the police force.

Q So you were part of the military police?

A Yes.

Q And where in Yemen was this?

A In the same province. In the same province. In the same

province, Hadhramaut, in the city of Mukalla.

Q What types of duties did you exercise within the

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1 Mr. Spahn, ask your first question, please.

2 SULEIMAN AL-NAHDI,

3 having been duly sworn, through interpreter, testified as

4 follows:

5 DIRECT EXAMINATION

6 BY MR. SPAHN:

7 Q Suleiman, how old are you?

8 A 36 years old.

9 Q Where are you from?

10 A Yemen.

11 Q What part of Yemen?

12 A South of Yemen, Hadhramaut.

13 Q Were you in the military in Yemen?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Tell me about your experience in the Yemeni military.

16 A I do not have any job and circumstances were difficult.

17 In Yemen, a person join a police force only if he has no other

18 opportunities to try, and construction job are difficult to be

19 found, therefore I decided to join the police force.

20 Q So you were part of the military police?

21 A Yes.

22 Q And where in Yemen was this?

23 A In the same province. In the same province. In the same

24 province, Hadhramaut, in the city of Mukalla.

25 Q What types of duties did you exercise within the

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military?

THE COURT: Mr. Spahn, you need to speak a bit

louder, and you're speaking slowly enough but a bit louder so

we can catch all your questions. Would you repeat your last

question, please.

MR. SPAHN: Yes, Your Honor.

Q (BY MR. SPAHN) What kinds of duties did you exercise

while in Yemeni military?

THE COURT: Before the witness answers.

Mr. Bennett.

MR. BENNETT: Can Your Honor ask the witness to

speak up a little bit when he answers as well.

THE COURT: So that your interpreter can hear him,

yes. Would the interpreter please direct Mr. Al-Adahi (sic),

even when he is speaking to the interpreter, to speak more

loudly because the interpreter in our courtroom needs to be

able to hear as well.

MR. SPAHN: Your Honor, one point, just for the

record. This is Mr. Al-Nahdi. I will be referring to him

throughout this direct examination by his name Suleiman, which

he prefers.

THE COURT: All right.

Q (BY MR. SPAHN) So, Suleiman, explain for the Court the

types of things you did while in the Yerneni military.

A I joined the police. We started training exercises, and

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1 military?

2 THE COURT: Mr. Spahn, you need to speak a bit

3 louder, and you're speaking slowly enough but a bit louder so

4 we can catch all your questions. Would you repeat your last

5 question, please.

6 MR. SPAHN: Yes, Your Honor.

7 Q (BY MR. SPAHN) What kinds of duties did you exercise

8 while in Yemeni military?

9 THE COURT: Before the witness answers.

10 Mr. Bennett.

11 MR. BENNETT: Can Your Honor ask the witness to

12 speak up a little bit when he answers as well.

13 THE COURT: So that your interpreter can hear him,

14 yes. Would the interpreter please direct Mr. Al-Adahi (sic),

15 even when he is speaking to the interpreter, to speak more

16 loudly because the interpreter in our courtroom needs to be

17 able to hear as well.

18 MR. SPAHN: Your Honor, one point, just for the

19 record. This is Mr. Al-Nahdi. I will be referring to him

20 throughout this direct examination by his name Suleiman, which

21 he prefers.

22 THE COURT: All right.

23 Q (BY MR. SPAHN) So, Suleiman, explain for the Court the

24 types of things you did while in the Yerneni military.

25 A I joined the police. We started training exercises, and

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again the incident that disturbances took place in the country

and therefore we were unable to finish our military training

and disturbances took place and

THE COURT: Just a moment, please, everybody.

MR. BENNETT: Your Honor, disagrees with

the translation. I would ask him to please approach the

microphone and say what the problem was.

He didn't say -- he didn't say that

there was a trouble in the country. He just said that one

incident happened. That's it. He didn't say that there was

trouble in the country; he didn't say that I took an action.

THE COURT: Does the interpreter in Guantanamo have

a response to that?

MR. HASNAIN: Yes. I mean, ~e said that there were

disturbances that had taken place in the area.

THE COURT: Well, let me be very clear with

instructions. The interpreter in Guantanarno is to be

interpreting every word word-by-word or phrase-by-phrase.

Nothing is to be added that the witness himself has not

actually said.

Sometimes people don't speak in full sentences.

Sometimes they don't speak grammatically. It doesn't matter.

Everything he says is to be interpreted literally, no

corrections, no additions. Is that clear, sir?

MR. HASNAIN: Yes, Your Honor.




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1 again the incident that disturbances took place in the country

2 and therefore we were unable to finish our military training

3 and disturbances took place and

4 THE COURT: Just a moment, please, everybody.

5 MR. BENNETT: Your Honor, disagrees with

6 the translation. I would ask him to please approach the

7 microphone and say what the problem was.

8 He didn't say -- he didn't say that

9 there was a trouble in the country. He just said that one

10 incident happened. That's it. He didn't say that there was

11 trouble in the country; he didn't say that I took an action.

12 THE COURT: Does the interpreter in Guantanamo have

13 a response to that?

14 MR. HASNAIN: Yes. I mean, ~e said that there were

15 disturbances that had taken place in the area.

16 THE COURT: Well, let me be very clear with

17 instructions. The interpreter in Guantanarno is to be

18 interpreting every word word-by-word or phrase-by-phrase.

19 Nothing is to be added that the witness himself has not

20 actually said.

21 Sometimes people don't speak in full sentences.

22 Sometimes they don't speak grammatically. It doesn't matter.

23 Everything he says is to be interpreted literally, no

24 corrections, no additions. Is that clear, sir?

25 MR. HASNAIN: Yes, Your Honor.


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THE COURT: All right. Let's proceed, please.

Q (BY MR. SPAHN) Suleiman, when was this in Yemen, the

situation that you were just describing?

A You mean what, this war?

Q Yes.

A '94.

Q What was the political situation like in Yemen?

A Disturbed.

Q Did you eventually leave the Yemeni military?

A Yes.

Q Why was that?

A Of course, there were problems between north and south.

They took us. They took us from camp. They were troubled.

The northern forces entered, took us out this particular batch

belongs to the province. It did not belong to the Ministry of

Yemen.

Q Where in Yemen are you describing?

A I'm talking about -- I'm describing about Hadhramaut.

Q So you were part of the provincial army in Hadhramaut?

A The police force the police that belonged to the

province.

Q Were you eventually fired as a -- part of the military

police?

A When the trouble started between north and south, the

southerners fled. They entered -- the north entered the area.

etl!!CRE'f



1

2 Q


12

THE COURT: All right. Let's proceed, please.

(BY MR. SPAHN) Suleiman, when was this in Yemen, the

3 situation that you were just describing?

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Q

A

Q

A

Q

A

You mean what, this war?

Yes.

'94.

What was the political situation like in Yemen?

Disturbed.

Did you eventually leave the Yemeni military?

Yes.

Why was that?

Of course, there were problems between north and south.

13 They took us. They took us from camp. They were troubled.

14 The northern forces entered, took us out this particular batch

15 belongs to the province. It did not belong to the Ministry of

16 Yemen.

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Q

A

Q

A

Where in Yemen are you describing?

I'm talking about -- I'm describing about Hadhramaut.

So you were part of the provincial army in Hadhramaut?

The police force the police that belonged to the

21 province.

22 Q Were you eventually fired as a -- part of the military

23 police?

24 A When the trouble started between north and south, the

25 southerners fled. They entered -- the north entered the area.

§H;;:C~E'f



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This particular batch was disbanded and the reason is because

they did not belong to the ministry of interior. The salaries

were coming from the province.

Q Describe what kind of village Hadhramaut was when you

were living there.

A What do you mean, how do you describe it?

Q Explain the area in which he lived.

A I lived in Al Mukalla.

Q Did you eventually travel to Afghanistan?

A Yes.

Q When was this?

A I don't remember exactly, whether 2000 or 2001.

THE COURT: All right. What is the objection?

MR. BENNETT: Your Honor, I'm going to ask again

that the detainee keep his voice up while he's testifying.

THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Al-Adahi (sic), please speak

loudly so that we can all hear you in our courtroom.

MR. BENNETT: If we could just have the answer to

that again.

Q (BY MR. SPAHN) Suleiman, why did you go to Afghanistan?

A Training.

Q Why could you not receive training in Yemen?

A Because that trouble happened. We got fired from our

job, and to the (unintelligible) as a southerner, I have no

venue in the country. The northerners came and occupied

:~H!!e~~'f

UNCLASSIFIEOI/FOR PUBLIC RELEASE



13

1 This particular batch was disbanded and the reason is because

2 they did not belong to the ministry of interior. The salaries

3 were coming from the province.

4 Q Describe what kind of village Hadhramaut was when you

5 were living there.

6 A What do you mean, how do you describe it?

7 Q Explain the area in which he lived.

8 A I lived in Al Mukalla.

9 Q Did you eventually travel to Afghanistan?

10 A Yes.

11 Q When was this?

12 A I don't remember exactly, whether 2000 or 2001.

13 THE COURT: All right. What is the objection?

14 MR. BENNETT: Your Honor, I'm going to ask again

15 that the detainee keep his voice up while he's testifying.

16 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Al-Adahi (sic), please speak

17 loudly so that we can all hear you in our courtroom.

18 MR. BENNETT: If we could just have the answer to

19 that again.

20 Q (BY MR. SPAHN) Suleiman, why did you go to Afghanistan?

21 A Training.

22 Q Why could you not receive training in Yemen?

23 A Because that trouble happened. We got fired from our

24 job, and to the (unintelligible) as a southerner, I have no

25 venue in the country. The northerners came and occupied

:~H!!e~~'f

UNCLASSIFIEO/IFOR PUBLIC RELEASE

14 UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE

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all - everything.

Q What was it that you were - what was it that you were

trying to train for?

A What you mean?

Q You said that you went to Afghanistan to receive

training.

A Yes.

Q What kind of training?

THE COURT: Ai: right. Excuse me a moment. Our

court reporter is having problems. Are you having problems

hearing the interpreter when he speaks English?

COURT REPORTER: Understanding the interpreter is

what I'm having problems with.

THE COURT: All right. I can tell that.

MR. BENNETT: I am having the same problem.

THE COURT: The interpreter needs, when hers

translating, to speak more slowly and more clearly. I could

tell that our court reporter was having some problems, and it

would appear as if the Government lawyers are having some as

well, and certainly I'm not getting every word. So everybody

at Guantanamo needs to slow down, speak louder and speak

clearly. Go ahead, please, everyone.

THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honor. I will try my

best.

Q (BY MR. SPAHN) Suleiman, what did your mother think




14

1 all -- everything.

2 Q What was it that you were -- what was it that you were

3 trying to train for?

4 A What you mean?

5 Q You said that you went to Afghanistar. to receive

6 training.

7 A Yes.

8 Q What kind of training?

9 THE COURT: Al~ right. Excuse me a moment. Our

10 court reporter is having problems. Are you having problems

11 hearing the interpreter when he speaks English?

12 COURT REPORTER: Understanding the interpreter is

13 what I'm having problems with.

14 THE COURT: All right. I can tell that.

15 MR. BENNETT: I am having the same problem.

16 THE COURT: The interpreter needs, when he's

17 translating, to speak more slowly and more clearly. I could

18 tell that our court reporter was having some problems, and it

19 would appear as if the Government lawyers are having some as

20 well, and certainly I'm not getting every word. So everybody

21 at Guantanamo needs to slow down, speak louder and speak

22 clearly. Go ahead, please, everyone.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honor. I will try my

24 best.

25 Q (BY MR. SPAHN) Suleiman, what did your mother think



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about you going to Afghanistan?

THE COURT: Excuse me. I want to go back to a very

important question, which I think everybody had trouble

hearing the answer to, and that question was to Mr. Al-Adahi,

what were you training for when you went to Afghanistan?

A Military training.

Q (BY MR. SPAHN) Was that military training in order to

fight in any given war?

A No.

Q Okay. Suleiman, what did your mother think about your

decision to travel to Afghanistan? What did your mother think

about you traveling to Afghanistan?

A I talked to her, and I was given to convince her and she

was refusing. I said it was only six months and I come back.

And I said it's only six months and then I'll return.

Q So, you only intended to go to Afghanistan for six

months?

A Yes.

Q Where did you first go upon arriving in Afghanistan?

A Karachi. Pakistan, Karachi.

Q And from Karachi, where did you go?

A Quetta.

COURT REPORTER: Where?

Q (Unintelligible) Where did you go after that?

A Kandahar.

@~8:R~T




15

1 about you going to Afghanistan?

2 THE COURT: Excuse me. I want to go back to a very

3 important question, which I think everybody had trouble

4 hearing the answer to, and that question was to Mr. AI-Adahi,

5 what were you training for when you went to Afghanistan?

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Q

Military training.

(BY MR. SPAHN) Was that military training in order to

8 fight in any given war?

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A

Q

No.

Okay. Suleiman, what did your mother think about your

11 decision to travel to Afghanistan? What did your mother think

12 about you traveling to Afghanistan?

13 A I talked to her, and I was given to convince her and she

14 was refusing. I said it was only six months and I come back.

15 And I said it's only six months and then I'll return.

16 Q So, you only intended to go to Afghanistan for six

17 months?

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A

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A

Yes.

Where did you first go upon arriving in Afghanistan?

Karachi. Pakistan, Karachi.

And from Karachi, where did you go?

Quetta.

COURT REPORTER: Where?

(Unintelligible) Where did you go after that?

Kandahar.

@~8:R~T



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Q What did you do with your passport in Kandahar?

A I kept it in a house.

Q Did there come a point that you departed and you were

separated from your passport?

A Yes.

Q Why was that?

A There were problems, there were troubles, and then I was

unable to have access or to obtain my passport, access to my

passport.

Q I'm asking about why you gave -- why you gave somebody at

the Kandahar guesthouse your passport.

THE COURT: I think there's an objection. Just a

moment, everyone.

MR. BENNETT: Again, is having difficulty

hearing the detainee's answer.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Al-Adahi (sic), again

keep your voice up, please, when you answer. We need to hear

your answer in your own language.

MR. MURPHY: Your Honor, if I may, please excuse me.

So that we will have a clear record, it is Mr. Al-Nahdi.

THE COURT: I'm sorry, excuse me, excuse me. Of

course it is. All right. Proceed.

A So how do you expect me to raise my voice if there is no

microphone? This is my voice.

Q (BY MR. SPAHN) Just try to speak a little louder.



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Q

A

Q


What did you do with your passport in Kandahar?

I kept it in a house.

16

Did there come a point that you departed and you were

4 separated from your passport?

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Q

A

Yes.

Why was that?

There were problems, there were troubles, and then I was

8 unable to have access or to obtain my passport, access to my

9 passport.

10 Q I'm asking about why you gave -- why you gave somebody at

11 the Kandahar guesthouse your passport.

12 THE COURT: I think there's an objection. Just a

13 moment, everyone.

14 MR. BENNETT: Again, is having difficulty

15 hearing the detainee's answer.

16 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Al-Adahi (sic), again

17 keep your voice up, please, when you answer. We need to hear

18 your answer in your own language.

19 MR. MURPHY: Your Honor, if I may, please excuse me.

20 So that we will have a clear record, it is Mr. Al-Nahdi.

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THE COURT: I'm sorry, excuse me, excuse me. Of

course it is. All right. Proceed.

A So how do you expect me to raise my voice if there is no

24 microphone? This is my voice.

25 Q (BY MR. SPAHN) Just try to speak a little louder.


17


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A This is my voice.

Q Suleiman, did you train at Al Farouq?

A Yes.

Q Why did you go to Al Farouq?

A To get good pay.

Q What did you know about Al Farouq before going there?

A That this is a military organization.

Q Who did you understand ran Ai Farouq before going there?

A I do not know.

Q What -- what was your understanding of al Qaeda prior to

going to Afghanistan?

A I heard about al Qaeda only after coming to Cuba.

Q What is your understanding of who Osama bin Laden was

prior to going to Afghanistan?

A I knew that -- I knew that during the Russian days and

problems in Afghanistan that Arabs went to this country to

fight Russians. That's all I know.

Q Was it your intention to train in order to fight the

Russians?

A No.

Q When you trained at Al Farouq, did you discuss with your

trainers who you were training to fight?

A No.

Q Was it your intention to receive training to fight

anyone?

S!ltIEB£ UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE



17

1 A This is my voice.

2 Q Suleiman, did you train at Al Farouq?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Why did you go to Al Farouq?

5 A To get good pay.

6 Q What did you know about Al Farouq before going there?

7 A That this is a military organization.

8 Q Who did you understand ran Ai Farouq before going there?

9 A I do not know.

10 Q What -- what was your understanding of al Qaeda prior to

11 going to Afghanistan?

12 A I heard about al Qaeda only after coming to Cuba.

13 Q What is your understanding of who Osama bin Laden was

14 prior to going to Afghanistan?

15 A I knew that -- I knew that during the Russian days and

16 problems in Afghanistan that Arabs went to this country to

17 fight Russians. That's all I know.

18 Q Was it your intention to train in order to fight the

19 Russians?

20 A No.

21 Q When you trained at Al Farouq, did you discuss with your

22 trainers who you were training to fight?

23 A No.

24 Q Was it your intention to receive training to fight

25 anyone?

S!lCIEZ£ UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE


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THE COURT: There's an objection pending.

MR. BENNETT: Your Honor, has noted a

problem.

Your Honor, he said that - the question

to Mr. Al-Nahdi said that, are you going -- who do you know

are going to fight "with," not "against," and the translation

was wrong. He said "with," not "against."

THE COURT: Is the -- does the translator at

Guantanamo agree with that correction? That's a very

significant correction.

Q (BY MR. SPAHN) The question was, were you training -

who were you training to fight against?

MR. HASNAIN: Your Honor, you were fighting against.

But beyond that, the question in Arabic,

who you going to fight "with," not "against"?

THE COORT: All right. This is the answer for the

record, and I want to make sure that the translator in

Guantanamo agrees that the witness Mr. Al-Nahdi (sic) was

saying that he was going to fight against, not with the

Russians.

I'm sorry, Your Honor. Actually my

issue is with the translation. The English question was

clear, but the translation was wrong.

THE COURT: I understand that.

Okay.




18

1 THE COURT: There's an objection pending.

2 MR. BENNETT: Your Honor, has noted a

3 problem.

4 Your Honor, he said that -- the question

5 to Mr. AI-Nahdi said that, are you going -- who do you know

6 are going to fight "with," not "against," and the translation

7 was wrong. He said "with," not "against."

8 THE COURT: Is the -- does the translator at

9 Guantanamo agree with that correction? That's a very

10 significant correction.

11 Q (BY MR. SPAHN) The question was, were you training --

12 who were you training to fight against?

13 MR. HASNAIN: Your Honor, you were fighting against.

14 But beyond that, the question in Arabic,

15 who you going to fight "with," not "against"?

16 THE COORT: All right. This is the answer for the

17 record, and I want to make sure that the translator in

18 Guantanamo agrees that the witness Mr. AI-Nahdi (sic) was

19 saying that he was going to fight against, not with the

20 Russians.

21 I'm sorry, Your Honor. Actually my

22 issue is with the translation. The English question was

23 clear, but the translation was wrong.

24 THE COURT: I understand that.

25 Okay.



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THE COURT: I want to just get clear for the record

what the accurate translation is, and I believe, and I'll say

it again, that the accurate translation is that the witness

was going to fight "against," not "with" the Russians.

Does the translator at Guantanamo agree?

MR. HASNAIN: Yes.

MR. SPAHN: Your Honor, I'm going to ask the

translator here to ask the question again.


Q (BY MR. SPAHN) The question is -- the question is: Whe

you were at Al Farouq, who were you training to fight against?

A To defend my country and to defend myself.

Q Suleiman, would you have gone to Ai Farouq had you known

it was supported by al Qaeda?

A Can you repeat the question.

Q Would you have gone to Al Farouq had you known it was

supported by al Qaeda?

A I did not -- Is your question that I knew? Is yo~r

question that did I knew? If it is this camp belonged to al

Qaeda, and you want that question and answer to that? Would

you please clarify your question.

Q My question is this: If you had known that Ai Farouq was

supported by al Qaeda before you entered the camp, would you

have gone?

A No.

@~@ft~"I




19

1 THE COURT: I want to just get clear for the record

2 what the accurate translation is, and I believe, and I'll say

3 it again, that the accurate translation is that the witness

4 was going to fight "against," not "with" the Russians.

5 Does the translator at Guantanamo agree?

6 MR. HASNAIN: Yes.

7 MR. SPAHN: Your Honor, I'm going to ask the

8 translator here to ask the question again.


10 Q (BY MR. SPAHN) The question is -- the question is: Whe

11 you were at Al Farouq, who were you training to fight against?

12 A To defend my country and to defend myself.

13 Q Suleiman, would you have gone to Ai Farouq had you known

14 it was supported by al Qaeda?

15 A Can you repeat the question.

16 Q Would you have gone to Al Farouq had you known it was

17 supported by al Qaeda?

18 A I did not -- Is your question that I knew? Is yo~r

19 question that did I knew? If it is this camp belonged to al

20 Qaeda, and you want that question and answer to that? Would

21 you please clarify your question.

22 Q My question is this: If you had known that Ai Farouq was

23 supported by al Qaeda before you entered the camp, would you

24 have gone?

25 A No.

@~@!it~"f



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Q Did there come a time that you saw Osama bin Laden at Al

Farouq?

A Yes.

Q Where did you see him?

A In the mosque.

Q What did you know about why he was there?

A After the prayers are done, we sat down. We are sitting

in the mosque after the prayers. Suddenly he entered where we

were sitting. That's it.

Q What -- did you know why he was there?

A I did not know. He was surprised.

Q And again, explain to me and the Court what you knew

about Osama bin Laden at that time.

A You mean at that time or (unintelligible)?

Q When you saw him at Al Farouq.

A He talked about Jihad. We knew that this person used to

be here during the time of Russians. That's all I know.

Q And again, to be clear, were you aware of the existence

of an organization known as al Qaeda at that time?

A No.

Q And was Osama bin Laden speaking directly to you at Al

Farouq?

A Yes.

Q Why were you surprised to see him there?

A He was surprised.




20

1 Q Did there come a time that you saw Osama bin Laden at Al

2 Farouq?

3 A Yes.

Q Where did you see 4

5

6

A In the mosque.

Q What did you know

7 A After the prayers

him?

about why he was there?

are done, we sat down. We are sitting

8 in the mosque after the prayers. Suddenly he entered where we

9 were sitting. That's it.

10

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Q

A

Q

What -- did you know why he was there?

I did not know. He was surprised.

And again, explain to me and the Court what you knew

13 about Osama bin Laden at that time.

14

15

16

A

Q

A

You mean at that time or (unintelligible)?

When you saw him at Al Farouq.

He talked about Jihad. We knew that this person used to

17 be here during the time of Russians. That's all I know.

18 Q And again, to be clear, were you aware of the existence

19 of an organization known as al Qaeda at that time?

20

21

A

Q

No.

And was Osama bin Laden speaking directly to you at Al

22 Farouq?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Why were you surprised to see him there?

25 A He was surprised.



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Q Can you elaborate why you were surprised.

A I came to this place. I was not expecting that this

person would come to this place.

Q When did you leave Al Farouq?

A I stayed there 120 days. I did not like few things.

Q What was it about Al Farouq that you did not like?

A Like food and (unintelligible), and I did not go there

that people order me.

Q Approximately how long after seeing Osama bin Laden did

you leave Al Farouq?

A I don't remember.

Q Did you leave Al Farouq? Was it your decision to leave

Al Farouq?

A Yes.

Q Why d~d you make that decision?

A I was not comfortable in the area. I was not comfortable

in the place.

Q Tell me a little bit more about why you were not

comfortable.

A I was not comfortable with the place.

Q Can you elaborate why you were not comfortable?

A For example, the food, the quality of the food, I was

not wanting anybody -- I did not come here so that anybody

would follow me, and rather this -- for this.

Q Had you completed your training when you decided to leave

88BR8T



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Q

A


21

Can you elaborate why you were surprised.

I came to this place. I was not expecting that this

3 person would come to this place.

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Q

A

Q

A

When did you leave Al Farouq?

I stayed there 120 days. I did not like few things.

What was it about Al Farouq that you did not like?

Like food and (unintelligible), and I did not go there

8 that people order me.

9 Q Approximately how long after seeing Osama bin Laden did

10 you leave Al Farouq?

11

12

A

Q

I don't remember.

Did you leave Al Farouq? Was it your decision to leave

13 Al Farouq?

14

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A

Q

A

Yes.

Why d~d you make that decision?

I was not comfortable in the area. I was not comfortable

17 in the place.

18 Q Tell me a little bit more about why you were not

19 comfortable.

20

21

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A

Q

A

I was not comfortable with the place.

Can you elaborate why you were not comfortable?

For example, the food, the quality of the food, I was

23 not wanting anybody -- I did not come here so that anybody

24 would follow me, and rather this -- for this.

25 Q Had you completed your training when you decided to leave

88BR8T


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Al Farouq?

A

Q

you

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

No.

What did your instructors say to you when you told them

were leaving Al Farouq?

Nobody talk to me.

Suleiman, are you a member of al Qaeda?

No.

Have you ever been a member of al Qaeda?

No, and I will never be, God willing.

Were you aware of anyone you were surrounding yourselves

with at Al Farouq being al Qaeda?

A No.

Q Where did you go after leaving Al Farouq?

A Kandahar.

Q And what did you do in Kandahar?

A I wanted to get my passport.

Q What did you do in order to try to get your passport?

A I wanted to get out.

Q Did you get your passport?

A No.

Q Why?

A We went to Kabul, and then I asked him again that I want

my passport. I stayed for a few days in Kabul and troubles

started.

Q What -- why did you go from Kandahar to Kabul?

~H!ilRf!ilT




22

1 Al Farouq?

2

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Q

No.

What did your instructors say to you when you told them

4 you were leaving Al Faroug?

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A

Q

A

Q

Nobody talk to me.

Suleiman, are you a member of al Qaeda?

No.

Have you ever been a member of al Qaeda?

No, and I will never be, God willing.

Were you aware of anyone you were surrounding yourselves

11 with at Al Faroug being al Qaeda?

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No.

Where did you go after leaving Al Farouq?

Kandahar.

And what did you do in Kandahar?

I wanted to get my passport.

What did you do in order to try to get your passport?

I wanted to get out.

Did you get your passport?

No.

Why?

We went to Kabul, and then I asked him again that I want

23. my passport. I stayed for a few days in Kabul and troubles

24 started.

25 Q What -- why did you go from Kandahar to Kabul?

~H!ilRHT



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A Just for an outing, just to have a different - just to

see the country.

Q Who were you traveling with?

A Some Iranic people and some Arabs.

Q When you say "trouble started," what does that mean?

A Incidents happened in Afghanistan, troubles in

Afghanistan. We heard of a person called Massoud has

been killed, and then there were internal problems that took

place and people started fleeing and I wanted to -- and I

wanted to get my passport so that I could leave.

Q Why was -- so you heard that Massoud had been killed?

A Yes, I heard that.

Q And why was that troubling to you?

A People started saying that Massoud had been killed and

therefore there will be troubles, and I did not know who this

person Massoud was.

Q Troubles for who?

A For the Arabs.

Q And so at that point you decided that you wanted to

leave?

A At this point, I was -- I decided strongly that I did not

come here because of these troubles.

Q What was the situation like in Kabul at that time?

A There was complete confusion.

Q Explain to me a little bit about what that means.




23

1 A Just for an outing, just to have a different -- just to

2 see the country.

3 Q Who were you traveling with?

4 A Some Iranic people and some Arabs.

5 Q When you say "trouble started," what does that mean?

6 A Incidents happened in Afghanistan, troubles in

7 Afghanistan. We heard of a person called Massoud has

8 been killed, and then there were internal problems that took

9 place and people started fleeing and I wanted to -- and I

10 wanted to get my passport so that I could leave.

11 Q Why was -- so you heard that Massoud had been killed?

12 A Yes, I heard that.

13 Q And why was that troubling to you?

14 A People started saying that Massoud had been killed and

15 therefore there will be troubles, and I did not know who this

16 person Massoud was.

17 Q Troubles for who?

18 A For the Arabs.

19 Q And so at that point you decided that you wanted to

20 leave?

21 A At this point, I was -- I decided strongly that I did not

22 come here because of these troubles.

23 Q What was the situation like in Kabul at that time?

24 A There was complete confusion.

25 Q Explain to me a little bit about what that means.


24


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A We heard that any Arab -- the one person that any Arab

who would be found would be arrested, would be killed.

Q What did you decide to do?

A I wanted to get out. I wanted my passport. They said

that your passport is in Kandahar and conditions are very

difficult.

Q When you say "they," who is "they"?

A Can you explain what you mean?

Q Who did you ask about your passport?

A Some of the people who were in Kandahar. The -- this

person, people that I met, and AI-Anani, I asked him that

want my passport. He said I can't do that because your

passport is in Kandahar and there are troubles.

Q What type of troubles were going on in Kandahar?

A I did not know, but they said there were problems in the

city.

Q From Kabul, where did you decide to go?

A Jalalabad.

Q Did you go to Jalalabad?

A We saw that people, everybody was leaving, heading toward

that way and do whatever they could do and moving towards that

direction. I went along with people in a car.

Q Tell me about how you got -- how you got from Kabul to

Jalalabad.

A We would move and sleep, and of course when we see


I



24

1 A We heard that any Arab -- the one person that any Arab

2 who would be found would be arrested, would be killed.

3 Q What did you decide to do?

4 A I wanted to get out. I wanted my passport. They said

5 that your passport is in Kandahar and conditions are very

6 difficult.

7 Q When you say "they," who is "they"?

8 A Can you explain what you mean?

9 Q Who did you ask about your passport?

10 A Some of the people who were in Kandahar. The -- this

11 person, people that I met, and AI-Anani, I asked him that I

12 want my passport. He said I can't do that because your

13 passport is in Kandahar and there are troubles.

14 Q What type of troubles were going on in Kandahar?

15 A I did not know, but they said there were problems in the

16 city.

17 Q From Kabul, where did you decide to go?

18 A Jalalabad.

19 Q Did you go to Jalalabad?

20 A We saw that people, everybody was leaving, heading toward

21 that way and do whatever they could do and moving towards that

22 direction. I went along with people in a car.

23 Q Tell me about how you got -- how you got from Kabul to

24 Jalalabad.

25 A We would move and sleep, and of course when we see



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problems, if there are problems, of course there was an

Afghani person with us. He was the person who was guiding us.

Q The question is about when you were still in Kabul. Tell

me about the process of how you got into a vehicle to go to

Jalalabad.

A I was sitting at home. The people started fleeing. I

was sitting at home and people are saying "let's go, let's."

I talked to somebody. There was an Afghani person and an

Arab, and then they said we are going to Jalalabad and to

come. So we would find our way to get out of this place, I

went along with them.

Q Now, you mentioned -- I think you said -- did you say the

Afghani escort; is that what you said?

A Yes.

Q Explain to me what the term "escort" means?

A He was an Iranic at the house. He was to cook for us.

He was to help us. Who was he, I do not know. He spoke very

little Arabic.

Q Why did you need an escort?

A I go another country.

Q So how did you know what direction to go?

A They said Jalalabad, and we will go to the mountains and

then we will take you to Bishara.

Q Did you travel in some kind of caravan?

A No.

~'8@JiiJ~'if




25

1 problems, if there are problems, of course there was an

2 Afghani person with us. He was the person who was guiding us.

3 Q The question is about when you were still in Kabul. Tell

4 me about the process of how you got into a vehicle to go to

5 Jalalabad.

6 A I was sitting at home. The people started fleeing. I

7 was sitting at home and people are saying "let's go, let's."

8 I talked to somebody. There was an Afghani person and an

9 Arab, and then they said we are going to Jalalabad and to

10 come. So we would find our way to get out of this place, I

11 went along with them.

12 Q Now, you mentioned -- I think you said -- did you say the

13 Afghani escort; is that what you said?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Explain to me what the term "escort" means?

16 A He was an Iranic at the house. He was to cook for us.

17 He was to help us. Who was he, I do not know. He spoke very

18 little Arabic.

19 Q Why did you need an escort?

20 A I go another country.

21 Q So how did you know what direction to go?

22 A They said Jalalabad, and we will go to the mountains and

23 then we will take you to Bishara.

24 Q

25 A

Did you travel in some kind of caravan?

No.

~~@JiiJ~Ff



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Q Was this a single car?

A Yes. A car, yes.

Q When did you learn about the attacks of 9/11?

A We reached Jalalabad. They took us to a mountainous

area, and they said, from here, we will go to Pakistan, and

then trouble started. There were internal troubles, and then

this trouble came -- so it became a bigger problem. We stayed

at the bottom of Tora Bora.

Q Did you have any involvement with the attacks on 9/11?

A No.

Q How long were you in Tora Bora?

A Over these periods, I can't remember eight years ago.

Q Do you have approximate -- an approximation?

A As I said, I stayed here five days -- one week, five

days.

Q What did you do when you were in Tora Bora?

A I stayed there, and families came. People were corning

and they were trying to go to Pakistan.

Q What families are you talking about?

A Libyan women and children.

Q This was in·Tora Bora?

A Everybody carne to Tora Bora.

Q Why did everybody corne to Tora Bora?

A People wanted to flee.

Q Flee to where?

scctcCi UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE


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26

Was this a single car?

Yes. A car, yes.

When did you learn about the attacks of 9/11?

We reached Jalalabad. They took us to a mountainous

5 area, and they said, from here, we will go to Pakistan, and

6 then trouble started. There were internal troubles, and then

7 this trouble came -- so it became a bigger problem. We stayed

8 at the bottom of Tora Bora.

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15 days.

16 Q

17 A

Did you have any involvement with the attacks on 9/11?

No.

How long were you in Tora Bora?

Over these periods, I can't remember eight years ago.

Do you have approximate -- an approximation?

As I said, I stayed here five days -- one week, five

What did you do when you were in Tora Bora?

I stayed there, and families carne. People were corning

18 and they were trying to go to Pakistan.

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A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

What families are you talking about?

Libyan women and children.

This was in·Tora Bora?

Everybody carne to Tora Bora.

Why did everybody corne to Tora Bora?

People wanted to flee.

Flee to where?

scctcCI UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE


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A I think from this troubles.

Q But where were they attempting to go?

A Pakistan.

Q Did you have a weapon in Tora Bora?

A I think so.

Q For what purpose?

A To protect myself.

Q Did you ever use that weapon?

A For what?

Q Did you ever fire your weapon?

A No.

Q Did you ever engage in any fighting?

A No.

Q Who gave you the weapon?

A An Irani.

Q And again, what did he say the purpose of the weapon was?

A You are a stranger and this is a dangerous place. And

alert them first from the country -- would ask you hold this

weapon and stay here and we will try to take you off of this

place they said.

Q Did you witness any fighting while you were in Tora Bora?

A No.

Q While in Tora Bora or before Tora Bora, were you ever

given orders to do anything?

A No.



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I think from this troubles.

But where were they attempting to go?

Pakistan.

Did you have a weapon in Tora Bora?

I think so.

For what purpose?

To protect myself.

Did you ever use that weapon?

For what?

Did you ever fire your weapon?

No.

Did you ever engage in any fighting?

No.

Who gave you the weapon?

An Irani.

And again, what did he say the purpose of the weapon was?

You are a stranger and this is a dangerous place. And

18 alert them first from the country -- would ask you hold this

19 weapon and stay here and we will try to take you off of this

20 place they said.

21 Q Did you witness any fighting while you were in Tora Bora?

22 A No.

23 Q While in Tora Bora or before Tora Bora, were you ever

24 given orders to do anything?

25 A No.



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Q Were you ever ordered to chop wood?

A No.

Q Were you ever ordered

A Can I drink water?

Q Yes. Were you ever ordered to fight against anyone? To

fight anyone?

A No.

Q Were you ever ordered to guard anything?

A No.

Q Do you know what the word "foxhole" is?

A A lot of people used to make places for us to sleep.

Q And so did you sleep in those types of places in Tora

Bora?

A No.

Q Have you ever used the word "foxhole" before?

A I was in the first -- in the war between south and north

and supervising military person tell us to create and teach

for protection.

Q Now, you said you never took orders; is that right?

A Yes.

Q Did you ever ask directions to -- as to how to get out of

Afghanistan?

A Would you please clarify your question.

MR. SPAHN: One second. Your Honor, I'm getting a

signal from our video man that we need to take a recess to

BB€!\B! UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE


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A

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Q

Were

No.

Were

Can I

Yes.


28

you ever ordered to chop wood?

you ever ordered

drink water?

Were you ever ordered to fight against anyone?

6 fight anyone?

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13 Bora?

14 A

15 Q

No.

Were you ever ordered to guard anything?

No.

Do you know what the word "foxhole" is?

A lot of people used to make places for us to sleep.

And so did you sleep in those types of places in Tara

No.

Have you ever used the word "foxhole" before?

To

16 A I was in the first -- in the war between south and north

17 and supervising military person tell us to create and teach

18 for protection.

19 Q Now, you said you never took orders; is that right?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Did you ever ask directions to -- as to how to get out of

22 Afghanistan?

23 A Would you please clarify your question.

24 MR. SPAHN: One second. Your Honor, I'm getting a

25 signal from our video man that we need to take a recess to

Bl!l€!\l!l'f



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change tapes.

THE COURT: All right. How long will that take, do

you think?

MR. SPAHN: How long will that take?

VIDEOGRAPHER: About 20 seconds.

MR. SPAHN: 20 seconds.


MR. SPAHN: So that is not a recess t just a short

break.

(A BRIEF RECESS WAS TAKEN.)

THE COURT: Mr. Cramer, let me ask you something.

If you know the arrangements down there, I know that our court

reporter is having trouble because I watch her. Is there a

mic plugged in somewhere and is it a hand mic that they could

hand around?

MR. CRAMER: It's a roic similar to this. I don't

know how long the tether is, but it 1S on a cable. They might

be able to hand it back and forth.

THE COURT: All right. When we start UPt I'll

suggest that to everyone. All right. Thank you.

(PAUSE. )

MR. SPAHN: Your Honor, I am being told that we

could try and turn the microphones up on this end t but there

might be some feedback or disturbance.

THE COURT: We~lt are you going to try handing them

l!l p!H!lPiteT UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE



29

1 change tapes.

2 THE COURT: All right. How long will that take, do

3 you think?

4 MR. SPAHN: How long will that take?

5 VIDEOGRAPHER: About 20 seconds.

6 MR. SPAHN: 20 seconds.


8 MR. SPAHN: So that is not a recess t just a short

9 break.

10 (A BRIEF RECESS WAS TAKEN.)

11 THE COURT: Mr. Cramer, let me ask you something.

12 If you know the arrangements down there, I know that our court

13 reporter is having trouble because I watch her. Is there a

14 mic plugged in somewhere and is it a hand mic that they could

15 hand around?

16 MR. CRAMER: It's a roic similar to this. I don't

17 know how long the tether is, but it 1S on a cable. They might

18 be able to hand it back and forth.

19 THE COURT: All right. When we start UPt I'll

20 suggest that to everyone. All right. Thank you.

21 (PAUSE. )

22 MR. SPAHN: Your Honor, I am being told that we

23 could try and turn the microphones up on this end t but there

24 might be some feedback or disturbance.

25 THE COURT: We~lt are you going to try handing them

l!lP3l!lPitI!1T UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE

UNCLASSIFIEDJlFOR PUBLIC RELEASE

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around as you ask the questions? That might work better.

MR. SPAHN: I have handed Suleiman the microphone

and I will lean in toward him and ask my translator to do the

same.

THE COURT: All right. You're the easiest person to

pick up and my court reporter is nodding in agreement.

MR. SPAHN: I understand.

THE COURT; And the interpreter has to talk slower.

That is definitely a major issue.

MR. HASKAIN: Yes, Your Honor. I will try to do

that.

THE COURT: All right. Thank you.

(PAUSE.)

THE COURT: All right. I think we're ready then,

from the way things look. Mr. Spahn, you want to go ahead?

MR. SPAHN; Sure.

Q (BY MR. SPAHN) The question I have, Suleiman, is were

you given directions -- how did you know how to leave

Afghanistan?

A Can you please clarify your question.

Q When you were in Tora Bora.

A Yes.

Q How did you know which direction was Pakistan?

A According to the talk of the Iranis, the Irani was able

to speak a little bit of Arabic. He was to say from this

~E1~R!!T




30

1 around as you ask the questions? That might work better.

2 MR. SPAHN: I have handed Suleiman the microphone

3 and I will lean in toward him and ask my translator to do the

4 same.

5 THE COURT: All right. You're the easiest person to

6 pick up and my court reporter is nodding in agreement.

7 MR. SPAHN: I understand.

8 THE COURT; And the interpreter has to talk slower.

9 That is definitely a major issue.

10 MR. HASKAIN: Yes, Your Honor. I will try to do

11 that.

12 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.

13 (PAUSE.)

14 THE COURT: All right. I think we're ready then,

15 from the way things look. Mr. Spahn, you want to go ahead?

16 MR. SPAHN: Sure.

17 Q (BY MR. SPAHN) The question I have, Suleiman, is were

18 you given directions -- how did you know how to leave

19 Afghanistan?

20 A Can you please clarify your question.

21 Q When you were in Tora Bora.

22 A Yes.

23 Q How did you know which direction was Pakistan?

24 A According to the talk of the Iranis, the Irani was able

25 to speak a little bit of Arabic. He was to say from this

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point -- provision from this place we will be able to go to

Pakistan.

Q So had you not been with that Afghani, what would you

have done?

A I would have got lost. I might have died on the way as I

didn't know the country_

Q Did you see Osama bin Laden in Tara Bora?

A I heard about that.

Q Did you see him?

A Do you mean to see him?

Q Yes.

A from a distance.

Q Tell me from what distance?

A far, far distance. I heard people said he was walking

out.

Q Did you attempt to leave Afghanistan?

A Yes.

Q Why was that?

A There was nobody for me there. People were fleeing.

Everybody was fleeing. The people were fleeing. Everybody

was fleeing. I wanted my passport.

Q What were you told about where your passport was?

A I still don't know where is my passport.

Q Were you following orders when you attempted to leave

Afghanistan?




31

1 point -- provision from this place we will be able to go to

2 Pakistan.

3 Q So had you not been with that Afghani, what would you

4 have done?

5 A I would have got lost. I might have died on the way as I

6 didn't know the country.

7

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15 out.

16

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Q

A

Did you see Osama bin Laden in Tara Bora?

I heard about that.

Did you see him?

Do you mean to see him?

Yes.

from a distance.

Tell me from what distance?

far, far distance. I heard people said he was walking

Did you attempt to leave Afghanistan?

Yes.

Why was that?

There was nobody for me there. People were fleeing.

20 Everybody was fleeing. The people were fleeing. Everybody

21

22

23

24

was fleeing. I wanted my passport.

Q

A

Q

What were you told about where your passport was?

I still don't know where is my passport.

Were you following orders when you attempted to leave

25 Afghanistan?

~J!jn(:E'f



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A No.

Q Where were you trying to gO?

A Pakistan.

Q Were there others trying to get to Pakistan?

A Families and lots of other people, women, children.

Q Were you injured in Tara Bora?

A I'm traveling towards Pakistan in the villages, and then

that's the way it took place.

Q So were you -- were you injured?

A Yes.

Q How?

A Raids.

Q What kind of raids?

A Air raids.

Q And how were you injured?

A I was injured on my thigh. I was unable to walk, and

Afghanis took us, attack us.

Q So you were captured?

A Yes.

Q How were you captured?

A This all was injured. They found out that I'm an Arab,

and therefore I am a bounty and they took us with them.

Q Who is they?

A What I heard is they're from group of Hadrad Ali and Haji

Zamel and Haji Badir.



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No.

Where were you trying to gO?

Pakistan.

Were there others trying to get to Pakistan?

Families and lots of other people, women, children.

Were you injured in Tara Bora?

I'm traveling towards Pakistan in the villages, and then

8 that's the way it took place.

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Q

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So were you -- were you injured?

Yes.

How?

Raids.

What kind of raids?

Air raids.

And how were you injured?

I was injured on my thigh. I was unable to walk, and

17 Afghanis took us, attack us.

18

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Q

A

Q

A

So you were captured?

Yes.

How were you captured?

This all was injured. They found out that I'm an Arab,

22 and therefore I am a bounty and they took us with them.

23 Q Who is they?

24 A What I heard is they're from group of Hadrad Ali and Haji

25 Zamel and Haji Badir.



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Q What happened -- where were you taken after you were

captured?

A They put us in a house and they brought a doc. They

loaded us in the Wahaydon (ph.) to the hospital in Jalalabad.

Q Where were you taken after Jalalabad?

A There were three -- there were three groups who had -

delivered us. One of them was the group of Jalab Ali. The

whole country had confusion taking place. In the hospital,

they operated on me. They took out the shotgun from my leg.

They took us to Kabul.

Q And what happened to you in Kabul?

A In Kabul, they put us in a prison underground. In a part

of the prison.

Q Do you know what prison that was?

A What I heard that it was a part of a prison, and it's in

the United Nations in Kabul.

Q Where were you taken after that?

A I stayed 20 days of torture, force signing of papers and

then they were handed over -- the Americans came and we were

handed over, and there was interrogator.

Q Tell me what you mean by torture. What happened to you

in Kabul?

A We entered the prison in prison and they put us in

cells, and they -- late at night they would take one person.

They would take you to the second -- to the top floor and they

:!l!!lI!!!Pt!!lT UNCLASSIFIEOIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE



33

1 Q What happened -- where were you taken after you were

2 captured?

3 A They put us in a house and they brought a doc. They

4 loaded us in the Wahaydon (ph.) to the hospital in Jalalabad.

5

6

Q

A

Where were you taken after Jalalabad?

There were three -- there were three groups who had --

7 delivered us. One of them was the group of Jalab Ali. The

8 whole country had confusion taking place. In the hospital,

9 they operated on me. They took out the shotgun from my leg.

10 They took us to Kabul.

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Q

A

And what happened to you in Kabul?

In Kabul, they put us in a prison underground. In a part

13 of the prison.

14

15

Q

A

Do you know what prison that was?

What I heard that it was a part of a prison, and it's in

16 the United Nations in Kabul.

17 Q Where were you taken after that?

18 A I stayed 20 days of torture, force signing of papers and

19 then they were handed over -- the Americans came and we were

20 handed over, and there was interrogator.

21 Q Tell me what you mean by torture. What happened to you

22 in Kabul?

23 A We entered the prison in prison and they put us in

24 cells, and they -- late at night they would take one person.

25 They would take you to the second -- to the top floor and they

:!J!!II!!!Pt!!lT UNCLASSIFIEOIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE


34

1 would beat. They would hit you with metal iron or pipe on his

2 hand and they would tell you to sign a paper. And there was

3 an Arabic interpreter, liliiii he was there. There was an

4 Arabic interpreter. He knew Pashtu. He used (unintelligible)

5 He wrote -- he wrote a letter, and there would be

6 interrogation and beatings, and they would protest. And they

7 would protest -- they would protest to sign a paper that you

8 belong -- you are from al Qaeda, otherwise they would not hit

9 you, therefore I sign it and I did not know what was written

10 on the document.

11 Q How long have you been imprisoned at Guantanamo?

12 A Approximately eight years.

13 Q Have you been in trouble while you were in Guantanamo?

14 A Since I have been In Guantanamo, I don't have any

15 problems. Most of my time has been in Camp 4. Most of the

16 eight years, most of that have been in Camp 4. I don't have

17 any problems. I remember one day I was very sad after the

18 death of my mother, and a guard was trying to tease me, and as

19 a result I threw orange juice on him, and as a result of

20 that -- as a result of that the ERT came into my cell.

21 THE COURT: The interpreter must speak more slowly

22 when he's translating into English. Please slow down.

23 MR. HASNAIN: Okay. Yes, Your Honor.

24 A I was very sad because of the death of my mother and the

25 guard came and teased me. As a result of the teasing, I threw




34

1 would beat. They would hit you with metal iron or pipe on his

2 hand and they would tell you to sign a paper. And there was

3 an Arabic interpreter, liliiii he was there. There was an

4 Arabic interpreter. He knew Pashtu. He used (unintelligible)

5 He wrote -- he wrote a letter, and there would be

6 interrogation and beatings, and they would protest. And they

7 would protest -- they would protest to sign a paper that you

8 belong -- you are from al Qaeda, otherwise they would not hit

9 you, therefore I sign it and I did not know what was written

10 on the document.

11

12

13

14

Q

A

Q

A

How long have you been imprisoned at Guantanamo?

Approximately eight years.

Have you been in trouble while you were in Guantanamo?

Since I have been In Guantanamo, I don't have any

15 problems. Most of my time has been in Camp 4. Most of the

16

17

eight years, most of that have been in Camp 4. I don't have

any problems. I remember one day I was very sad after the

18 death of my mother, and a guard was trying to tease me, and as

19 a result I threw orange juice on him, and as a result of

20 that -- as a result of that the ERT came into my cell.

21 THE COURT: The interpreter must speak more slowly

22 when he's translating into English. Please slow down.

23

24 A

MR. HASNAIN: Okay. Yes, Your Honor.

I was very sad because of the death of my mother and the

25 guard came and teased me. As a result of the teasing, I threw


35


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orange juice on him. Because of that, the ERT, the Emergency

Response Trust came into my cell. They took me to Camp 3 -- 2

and 3 and to and the punishment was that I was

given a shot.

Q You were given a what?

A A shot. Shots.

Q Okay. Has that been the only time you've been in trouble

while in Guantanamo?

A Yes.

Q Have you ever been told you were going back to Yemen

while in Guantanamo?

A Many times.

Q How many?

A The inter~ogators by the Department of Defense, the

personal representative in one of the meetings, they said that

the Army has no problem with you. Even the interrogators from

the Army, the minister of Defense considers you as a good

person and we have no problems with you, and the people who

believe you are the civilians.

Q Have you ever been told that you've been cleared for

transfer?

A Yes.

Q When was that?

A In 2008, during the period of Bush, I was very happy that

I will be leaving soon, and to go back to my family and meet

~~8R~Ff




35

1 orange juice on him. Because of that, the ERT, the Emergency

2 Response Trust came into my cell. They took me to Camp 3 -- 2

3 and 3 and to and the punishment was that I was

4 given a shot.

5 Q You were given a what?

6 A A shot. Shots.

7 Q Okay. Has that been the only time you've been in trouble

8 while in Guantanamo?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Have you ever been told you were going back to Yemen

11 while in Guantanamo?

12 A Many times.

13 Q How many?

14 A The inter~ogators by the Department of Defense, the

15 personal representative in one of the meetings, they said that

16 the Army has no problem with you. Even the interrogators from

17 the Army, the minister of Defense considers you as a good

18 person and we have no problems with you, and the people who

19 believe you are the civilians.

20 Q Have you ever been told that you've been cleared for

21 transfer?

22 A Yes.

23 Q When was that?

24 A In 2008, during the period of Bush, I was very happy that

25 I will be leaving soon, and to qo back to my family and meet


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with them again, and then I'm sad. I lost everything that I

used to own and I have in my life. My loving mother, the

(unintelligible) regretfully, I was unable to leave.

Q Were you ever -- did they ever take you through

arrangements for your release?

MR. HASNAIN: Can you say that again?

Q (BY MR. SPAHN) Did -- were you ever put through a

process where you were told you were being processed for

release?

A They said that you would be leaving soon, and I'~ still

here.

Q Have you ever been told that you've been cleared for

release another time?

A Yes.

Q When was that?

A During the administration of Obama.

Q And when was that?

A On November 25.

Q If you were released, what would you do?

A I hope that I will be released soon so that I can go home

so that I meet my brothers. My sister is sick. She has a

heart -- she's a heart patient. I hope that I can live my

life with them because they're in need of me. I will not be

happy because I have lost six members of my family and my I

lost my mother, my paternal uncle, my paternal aunt, my niece,




36

1 with them again, and then I'm sad. I lost everything that I

2 used to own and I have in my life. My loving mother, the

3 (unintelligible) regretfully, I was unable to leave.

4 Q Were you ever -- did they ever take you through

5 arrangements for your release?

6 MR. HASNAIN: Can you say that again?

7 Q (BY MR. SPAHN) Did -- were you ever put through a

8 process where you were told you were being processed for

9 release?

10 A They said that you would be leaving soon, and I'~ still

11 here.

12 Q Have you ever been told that you've been cleared for

13 release another time?

14 A Yes.

15 Q When was that?

16 A During the administration of Obama.

17 Q And when was that?

18 A On November 25.

19 Q If you were released, what would you do?

20 A I hope that I will be released soon so that I can go home

21 so that I meet my brothers. My sister is sick. She has a

22 heart -- she's a heart patient. I hope that I can live my

23 life with them because they're in need of me. I will not be

24 happy because I have lost six members of my family and my I

25 lost my mother, my paternal uncle, my paternal aunt, my niece,


37


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two of my brothers.

Q Is there anything that we have not covered that you would

like to say?

A I would ~ike to address the judge. I respect all of you,

all the lawyers and all those who are present. This is an

opportunity for me to talk. I have two papers that show that

I'm cleared to be released, and I'm still here.

I have lost my loved ones. I don't know when I'll

be released. I have been tortured enough. i- have been

threatened with my honor and they have insulted us

religiously. They have insulted my Koran. I have been washed

while I was nude and they have threatened me with weapons, and

I have been threatened with rape.

Q Let me ask you one last pair of questions.

A And they threatened me by putting a finger in my anus.

Q When did that take place?

A This happened in Kabul. This building was in Kabul, and

there a Pakistani was killed -- a Pakistani died as a result

of torture while from movement from Kabul to Bagram. I was

death by torture complaints. They would throw you -- they

would throw you down into the raid, two hours on the ground in

full (unintelligible) and blindfolded and handcuffed to the

ground and thrown on~o the ground, beatings. An interpreter

would come/ he would say you are from al Qaeda, confess or

will rape you, and say that you saw bin Laden.

B~efl:J3T


I



37

1 two of my brothers.

2 Q Is there anything that we have not covered that you would

3 like to say?

4 A I would ~ike to address the judge. I respect all of you,

5 all the lawyers and all those who are present. This is an

6 opportunity for me to talk. I have two papers that show that

7 I'm cleared to be released, and I'm still here.

8 I have lost my loved ones. I don't know when I'll

9 be released. I have been tortured enough. .L have been

10 threatened with my honor and they have insulted us

11 religiously. They have insulted my Koran. I have bee~ washed

12 while I was nude and they have threatened me with weapons, and

13 I have been threatened with rape.

14

15

16

17

Q

A

Q

A

Let me ask you one last pair of questions.

And they threatened me by putting a finger in my anus.

When did that take place?

This happened in Kabul. This building was in Kabul, and

18 there a Pakistani was killed -- a Pakistani died as a result

19 of torture while from movement from Kabul to Bagram. I was

20 death by torture complaints. They would throw you -- they

21 would throw you down into the raid, two hours on the ground in

22 full (unintelligible) and blindfolded and handcuffed to the

23 ground and thrown on~o Lhe ground, beatings. An interpreter

24 would corne, he would say you are from al Qaeda, confess or I

25 will rape you, and say that you saw bin Laden.

B~ef1:l3T



38

1 Of course I said that so that I can remove torture

2 from what was to be placed on me. And then they would take

3 me, they would throw you on the ground, they would bring the

4 scissors, they would throw you onto your stomach. They would

5 bring the scissors, they would cut off your clothes and then

6 they will get you, and a doctor will come, then he would put

7 his finger in behind you.

8 MR. SPAHN: Your Honor, that's the conclusion of my

9 questions. I turn the witness over to the Government.

10 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Al-Nahdi, at this time

11 the lawyer for the Government has the right to ask you some

12 questions, and he will. And we'll follow the same procedure

13 that the interpreter will interpret the questions for you and

14 then you will answer in your own language, and the interpreter

15 will interpret your answer in English for us in the courtroom.

16 And would the interpreter repeat as much as you can

17 of what I've just said, please.

18 MR. HASNAIN: Yes, Your Honor.

19 THE COURT: Who will be doing the questioning for

20 the Government? Mr. Davis.

21 MR. DAVIS: May I begin, Your Honor?

22 THE COURT: Yes, please.

23 CROSS-EXAMINATION

24 BY MR. DAVIS:

25 Q Mr. AI-Nahdi, members of the Yemeni military police

IiilS6SliHiYIf?




38

1 Of course I said that so that I can remove torture

2 from what was to be placed on me. And then they would take

3 me, they would throw you on the ground, they would bring the

4 scissors, they would throw you onto your stomach. They would

5 bring the scissors, they would cut off your clothes and then

6 they will get you, and a doctor will come, then he would put

7 his finger in behind you.

8

9

10

questions.

MR. SPAHN: Your Honor, that's the conclusion of my

I turn the witness over to the Government.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Al-Nahdi, at this time

11 the lawyer for the Government has the right to ask you some

12 questions, and he will. And we'll follow the same procedure

13 that the interpreter will interpret the questions for you and

14 then you will answer in your own language, and the interpreter

15 will interpret your answer in English for us in the courtroom.

16 And would the interpreter repeat as much as you can

17 of what I've just said, please.

18

19

MR. HASNAIN: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Who will be doing the questioning for

20 the Government? Mr. Davis.

21

22

MR. DAVIS: May I begin, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes, please.

23 CROSS-EXAMINATION

24 BY MR. DAVIS:

25 Q Mr. AI-Nahdi, members of the Yemeni military police

IiilS6SliHiYIf?



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carried weapons, correct?

A Yes.

Q And people in the Yerneni military police were trained on

how to use those weapons, correct?

A Yes.

Q And you participated in this training, correct?

A Yes.

Q And one of the weapons you were trained on was the

Kalishnikov, correct?

A Yes.

Q While you were in Yemen, you read a fatwa by Shaykh

Hamrnoud Oqalah, correct?

MR. MURPHY: Objection.

THE COURT: Excuse me. No, just a moment everyone.

MR. MURPHY: Objection, Your Honor, that's outside

the scope of direct. There were no questions about Shaykh

Oqalah and the fatwa.

THE COURT: Response?

MR. DAVIS: Pardon temporarily, Your Honor.

(PAUSE.)

MR. DAVIS: Your Honor, he was questioned about his

reasons for going to Afghanistan.

THE COURT: They were. They were not -- Mr. Murphy

is correct, they were not specific questions about the fatwa,

but there certainly were questions about his reasons for going

SLmtL i




39

1 carried weapons, correct?

2

3

A

Q

Yes.

And people in the Yerneni military police were trained on

4 how to use those weapons, correct?

5

6

7

8

A

Q

A

Q

Yes.

And you participated in this training, correct?

Yes.

And one of the weapons you were trained on was the

9 Kalishnikov, correct?

10

11

A

Q

Yes.

While you were in Yemen, you read a fatwa by Shaykh

12 Harnrnoud Oqalah, correct?

13

14

15

MR. MURPHY: Objection.

THE COURT: Excuse me. No, just a moment everyone.

MR. MURPHY: Objection, Your Honor, that's outside

16 the scope of direct. There were no questions about Shaykh

17 Oqalah and the fatwa.

18

19

20

21

THE COURT: Response?

MR. DAVIS: Pardon temporarily, Your Honor.

(PAUSE.)

MR. DAVIS: Your Honor, he was questioned about his

22 reasons for going to Afghanistan.

23 THE COURT: They were. They were not -- Mr. Murphy

24 is correct, they were not specific questions about the fatwa,

25 but there certainly were questions about his reasons for going

SLmEL i


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to Afghanistan, so the objection is overruled.

Q (BY MR. DAVIS) I'll repeat the question. In Yemen you

read a fatwa by Shaykh Hammoud Oqalah, correct?

A You mean the fatwa?

Q I do, that's right.

A Yes.

Q And you decided to travel to Afghanistan after reading

that fatwa, correct?

A Yes.

Q Did a man named Abu Shakeiry preach about that fatwa?

A No.

Q How did you learn of this fatwa?

A Where was it started, in Palestine, and the priest

started talking about the necessity of getting prepared, and

therefore I decided to go.

Q Other people helped you arrange your travel to

Afghanistan, correct?

A Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Objection. Again, that's outside the

scope.

THE COURT: Sustained at this point. Also, I would

note that we have many fact -- admissions of fact on this

point as well.

Q (BY MR. DAVIS) When you arrived in Pakistan, were you

traveling with anyone?

CnCRE'Y UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE



40

1 to Afghanistan, so the objection is overruled.

2 Q (BY MR. DAVIS) I'll repeat the question. In Yemen you

3 read a fatwa by Shaykh Hammoud Oqalah, correct?

4 A You mean the fatwa?

Q I do, that's right.

6 A Yes.

7 Q And you decided to travel to Afghanistan after reading

8 that fatwa, correct?

9

10

11

12

13

A

Q

A

Q

A

Yes.

Did a man named Abu Shakeiry preach about that fatwa?

No.

How did you learn of this fatwa?

Where was it started, in Palestine, and the priest

14 started talking about the necessity of getting prepared, and

15 therefore I decided to go.

16 Q Other people helped you arrange your travel to

17 Afghanistan, correct?

18

19

A Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Objection. Again, that's outside the

20 scope.

21 THE COURT: Sustained at this point. Also, I would

22 note that we have many fact -- admissions of fact on this

23 point as well.

24 Q (BY MR. DAVIS) When you arrived in Pakistan, were you

25 traveling with anyone?

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A Yes.

Q What were their names?

A I don't know.

Q There were two of them, correct?

A I know Fahmi, yes.

MR. DAVIS: Your Honor, could the interpreter repeat

that answer. I didn't hear it.

THE COURT: Yes. Please repeat the answer.

A I know Fahmi, yes.

Q (BY MR. DAVIS) And Fahmi was with you in Pakistan,

correct?

A Yes.

Q And once he arrived in Pakistan, you and Fahmi were taken

to a guesthouse, correct?

MS. WILHELM: Your Honor.

A Yes.

THE COURT: Objection?

MS. WILHELM: I'd like to object as the attorney

representing Mr. A1-Assani, Fahmi AI-Assani to this line of

questions. It wasn't brought up in the direct examination,

and given that Mr. Al-Assani will not be testifying, to

attempt to get information from Mr. AI-Nahdi for that case

seems inappropriate and not within the realm of

Mr. AI-Madahi's case.

MR. DAVIS: Your Honor, it's directly relevant who

SEi€R81 UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE



41

1 A Yes.

2 Q What were their names?

3 A I don't know.

4 Q There were two of them, correct?

5 A I know Fahmi, yes.

6 MR. DAVIS: Your Honor, could the interpreter repeat

7 that answer. I didn't hear it.

8 THE COURT: Yes. Please repeat the answer.

9 A I know Fahmi, yes.

10 Q (BY MR. DAVIS) And Fahmi was with you in Pakistan,

11 correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And once he arrived in Pakistan, you and Fahmi were taken

14 to a guesthouse, correct?

15 MS. WILHELM: Your Honor.

16 A Yes.

l7 THE COURT: Objection?

18 MS. WILHELM: I'd like to object as the attorney

19 representing Mr. A1-Assani, Fahmi AI-Assani to this line of

20 questions. It wasn't brought up in the direct examination,

21 and given that Mr. Al-Assani will not be testifying, to

22 attempt to get information from Mr. AI-Nahdi for that case

23 seems inappropriate and not within the realm of

24 Mr. AI-Madahi's case.

25 MR. DAVIS: Your Honor, it's directly relevant who

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he traveled with to Afghanistan.

MR. MURPHY: Your Honor, if I may. All the

testimony on direct was that he arrived in Karachi and went

from-

THE COURT: Objection-

MR. MORPHY: He went to Karachi to Quetta, Kandahar.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Go ahead, please.

Q (BY MR. DAVIS) You stayed at a guesthouse in Karachi,

correct?

A Yes.

Q Was that guesthouse run by a man named Riyadh?

A No.

THE COU~T: What was the answer?

MR. DAVIS: I think he said "no," Your Honor.

A No.


Q (BY MR. DAVIS) You traveled from Karachi to Quetta,

correct?

A Yes.

Q And how did you travel from Quetta to Kandahar?

A Let me make it short for you. Did you hear what I said?

Q Sorry, what?

A You repeat what I said?

THE COURT: The interpreter is asking whether you

heard what he said.

3ECRE! UNCLASSIFIEOIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE



42

1 he traveled with to Afghanistan.

2 MR. MURPHY: Your Honor, if I may. All the

3 testimony on direct was that he arrived in Karachi and went

4 from--

5

6

7

8 Q

THE COURT: Objection--

MR. MORPHY: He went to Karachi to Quetta, Kandahar.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Go ahead, please.

(BY MR. DAVIS) You stayed at a guesthouse in Karachi,

9 correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Was that guesthouse run by a man named Riyadh?

12 A No.

13 THE COU~T: What was the answer?

14 MR. DAVIS: I think he said "no," Your Honor.

15 A No.


17 Q (BY MR. DAVIS) You traveled from Karachi to Quetta,

18 correct?

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A

Q

A

Q

A

Yes.

And how did you travel from Quetta to Kandahar?

Let me make it short for you. Did you hear what I said?

Sorry, what?

You repeat what I said?

THE COURT: The interpreter is asking whether you

25 heard what he said.

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MR. DAVIS: We think he's saying do you agree to

what I said, not -

THE COURT: Well, maybe I misheard it.

He was saying did I agree that he don't

sununarize sununarize the question and answer for you.

Q (BY MR. DAVIS) No, we would like a complete answer to

the question.

A I talk to you. If some of what I said is right and

objective is -- if your objective is to win this case, I would

like to congratulate you. However the jUdge, I have something

to say. All these things that I said so far, you know I

said -- what I have said. I do not want to speak about the

past. I want to get out of this place and to live a normal

life. I have no problems with you. I want to forget the

past. If you will like to hear from me, I have been tortured,

I have been humiliated my honor.

Q Please answer the question, Mr. AI-Nahdi.

THE COURT: Excuse me, let me make it clear to

Mr. Al-Nahdi, and I do want the interpreter to translate after

each few sentences of mine. Go ahead, please.

Under our procedures, the attorney is allowed to ask

questions. The person who has already testified must answer

the questions that are asked. It is not a time for the person

answering questions to make any speeches.

The questions must be specific and the answers must

~8@R!H




43

1 MR. DAVIS: We think he's saying do you agree to

2 what I said, not --

3

4

5

6

THE COURT: Well, maybe I misheard it.

He was saying did I agree that he don't

sununarize sununarize the question and answer for you.

Q (BY MR. DAVIS) No, we would like a complete answer to

7 the question.

8 A I talk to you. If some of what I said is right and

9 objective is -- if your objective is to win this case, I would

10 like to congratulate you. However the judge, I have something

11 to say. All these things that I said so far, you know I

12

13

14

15

said -- what I have said. I do not want to speak about the

past. I want to get out of this place and to live a normal

life. I have no problems with you. I want to forget the

past. If you will like to hear from me, I have been tortured,

16 I have been humiliated my honor.

17 Q Please answer the question, Mr. AI-Nahdi.

18 THE COURT: Excuse me, let me make it clear to

19 Mr. Al-Nahdi, and I do want the interpreter to translate after

20 each few sentences of mine. Go ahead, please.

21 Under our procedures, the attorney is allowed to ask

22 questions. The person who has already testified must answer

23 the questions that are asked. It is not a time for the person

24 answering questions to make any speeches.

25 The questions must be specific and the answers must

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be specific and responsive to the questions.

Mr. Davis, let's ask your next question, please.

Q (BY MR. DAVIS) Mr. Al-Nahdi, how did you get across the

border in order to get to Kandahar?

A Along with the Afghanis.

Q But you did not pass through a border checkpoint,

correct?

A A border checkpoint. Yes, I did cross a border

checkpoint.

Q Did you show your passport at the border to anyone?

A No.

Q So you didn't need your passport to get into Afghanistan,

correct?

A Yes.

Q To clarify, yes, that you did not need your passport, you

did not need it?


Q Is it true Let me rephrase that. You did not need to

show your passport to get into the country, correct?

A I went along with the Afghani people. He was the person

who guided us to go along.

Q Yes or no, did you need your passport to get in?

A No.

Q The guesthouse you stayed at in Kandahar, it was run by a

man named Abu Khaled, correct?

0130R131 UNCLASSIFIEDIfFOR PUBLIC RELEASE



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1 be specific and responsive to the questions.

2 Mr. Davis, let's ask your next question, please.

3 Q (BY MR. DAVIS) Mr. Al-Nahdi, how did you get across the

4 border in order to get to Kandahar?

5 A Along with the Afghanis.

6 Q But you did not pass through a border checkpoint,

7 correct?

8 A A border checkpoint. Yes, I did cross a border

9 checkpoint.

10 Q Did you show your passport at the border to anyone?

11 A No.

12 Q So you didn't need your passport to get into Afghanistan,

13 correct?

14 A Yes.

15 Q To clarify, yes, that you did not need your passport, you

16 did not need it?


18 Q Is it true Let me rephrase that. You did not need to

19 show your passport to get into the country, correct?

20 A I went along with the Afghani people. He was the person

21 who guided us to go along.

Q Yes or no, did you need your passport to get in?

23 A No.

24 Q The guesthouse you sr.ayed at in Kandahar, it was run by a

25 man named Abu Khaled, correct?

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A Yes.

Q When you were at Camp Al Farouq, you had instructors,

correct?

A No. Can you please -

THE COURT: Excuse me just a moment. Yes.

Your Honor, the Arabic translation was

not accurate.

THE COURT: I'm sorry. Repeat it again.

The Arabic translation for the question

was not accurate. The -- I think he asked for a trainer, not

an instructor.

THE COURT: No, the word that counsel used was

"instructor."

Yeah, but the Arabic translation was not

instructor. It was "companion."

THE COORT: Well, that's a very different word.

Yes.

THE COURT: Did the interpreter at Guantanamo hear

our discussion just now?

THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I did, and I disagree with

the interpreter at the courthouse. I said "mohabrine",

instructor. "Mohabrine" is the direct translation of

instructor. You can look in the dictionary.

THE COURT: Well, I'm going to defer to the

interpreter there, and maybe -- why don't you ask the question

OBOREIf' UNCLASSIFIEOIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE



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A Yes. 1

2 Q When you were at Camp Al Farouq, you had instructors,

3 correct?

4 A No. Can you please --

S THE COURT: Excuse me just a moment. Yes.

6 Your Honor, the Arabic translation was

7 not accurate.

8

9

THE COURT: I'm sorry. Repeat it again.

The Arabic translation for the question

10 was not accurate. The -- I think he asked for a trainer, not

11 an instructor.

12 THE COURT: No, the word that counsel used was

13 "instructor."

14 Yeah, but the Arabic translation was not

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instructor. It was "companion."

THE COORT: Well, that's a very different word.

Yes.

THE COURT: Did the interpreter at Guantanamo hear

19 our discussion just now?

2C

21

THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I did, and I disagree with

the interpreter at the courthouse. I said "mohabrine",

22 instructor. "Mohabrine" is the direct translation of

23 instructor. You can look in the dictionary.

24 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to defer to the

2S interpreter there, and maybe -- why don't you ask the question

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with the word "teacher." That may have a better Ar-abic

substitute. I certainly don't know, but why don't you ask it

that way.

Q (BY MR. DAVIS) Did you have teachers at Al Farouq?

A Yes.

Q Would they give you instructions on how to use weapons?

A Yes.

Q And did you follow their instructions?

A Sometimes. Sometimes I refused.

Q You stated that you saw Osama bin Laden at Al Farouq and

that he spoke about the Jihad, correct?

A Yes.

Q Against whom was the Jihad?

A General Jihad. He was not specific.

Q You stated that you were surprised to see Osama bin Laden

at the camp, but you also said that you knew him to be someone

who fought the Russians; is that correct?

A Yes. I heard this here. I heard that here.

Q When you say "here," do you mean at Al Farouq or in

Guantanamo?

A Guantanamo.

Q So you were not aware that bin Laden had fought the

Russians when you saw him at Al Farouq?

A I don't remember.

Q Did you talk with other people at Al Farouq?

~I!lefl:l!:!




46

1 with the word "teacher." That may have a better Ar-abic

2 substitute. I certainly don't know, but why don't you ask it

3 that way.

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Q

(BY MR. DAVIS) Did you have teachers at Al Farouq?

Yes.

Would they give you instructions on how to use weapons?

Yes.

And did you follow their instructions?

Sometimes. Sometimes I refused.

You stated that you saw Osama bin Laden at Al Farouq and

11 that he spoke about the Jihad, correct?

12

13

14

A

Q

A

Yes.

Against whom was the Jihad?

General Jihad. He was not specific.

15 Q You stated that you were surprised to see Osama bin Laden

16 at the camp, but you also said that you knew him to be someone

17 who fought the Russians; is that correct?

18

19

A

Q

Yes. I heard this here. I heard that here.

When you say "here," do you mean at Al Farouq or in

20 Guantanamo?

21

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Q

Guantanamo.

So you were not aware that bin Laden had fought the

23 Russians when you saw him at Al Farouq?

24

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Q

I don't remember.

Did you talk with other people at Al Farouq?

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THE COURT: Let me ask a question. Maybe we can get

a little clarity, and I want the interpreter to ask this

question of Mr. Al-Adahi. I did it again. Mr. AI-Nahdi, I'm

sorry.

Mr. AI-Nahdi, when you were at Al farouq, did you

know or hear that bin Laden had fought the Russians?

THE WI'lNESS: In Afghanistan? In Afghanistan? Is

your question did he fight the Russians in Afghanistan? Do

you mean in Afghanistan?

MR. BENNETT: I believe he's asking, Your Honor,

whether you mean that he fought the Russians in Afghanistan.

THE COURT: Yes, I do mean that. So again the

question is, when Mr. AI-Nahdi was at Al Farouq, did he know

at that time or had he heard at that time that bin Laden was

fighting the Russians to keep them out of Afghanistan.

THE WITNESS: I don't I don't remember exactly.

Q (BY MR. DAVIS) In direct testimony, didn't you testify

excuse me. In direct examination didn't you testify that

at the time Mr. Bin Laden spoke in Al Farouq, you knew that he

was someone who had fought the Russians in Afghanistan?

A I'm confused. No, yes, I'm confused.

Q What are you confused about?

A I don't know. I don't know what I said. I did not say

that.

Q If you had Said on direct examination that when you saw

DEeRE'!' UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE



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1 THE COURT: Let me ask a question. Maybe we can get

2 a ~itt1e clarity, and I want the interpreter to ask this

3 question of Mr. AI-Adahi. I did it again. Mr. AI-Nahdi, I'm

4 sorry.

5 Mr. AI-Nahdi, when you were at Al farouq, did you

6 know or hear that bin Laden had fought the Russians?

7 THE WI'lNESS: In Afghanistan? In Afghanistan? Is

8 your question did he fight the Russians in Afghanistan? Do

9 you mean in Afghanistan?

10 MR. BENNETT: I believe he's asking, Your Honor,

11 whether you mean that he fought the Russians in Afghanistan.

12 THE COURT: Yes, I do mean that. So again the

13 question is, when Mr. AI-Nahdi was at Al Farouq, did he know

14 at that time or had he heard at that time that bin Laden was

15 fighting the Russians to keep them out of Afghanistan.

16 THE WITNESS: I don't I don't remember exactly.

17 Q (BY MR. DAVIS) In direct testimony, didn't you testify

18 excuse me. In direct examination didn't you testify that

19 at the time Mr. Bin Laden spoke in Al Farouq, you knew that he

20 was someone who had fought the Russians in Afghanistan?

21 A I'm confused. No, yes, I'm confused.

22 Q What are you confused about?

23 A I don't know. I don't know what I said. I did not say

24 that.

25 Q If you had said on direct examination that when you saw

DEeRE'!' UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE


48

1 Mr. Bin Laden speak at Al Farouq you knew that he had fought

2 the Russians in Afghanistan, would that have been the truth?

3 A I don't know.

4 THE COURT: Mr. Davis, I don't think we're getting

5 anywhere, and also, you have to keep in mind some cultural

6 context. I don't think that the kinds of questions you're

7 asking are meaningful to this witness. Just ask simple

8 straightforward factual questions.

9 MR. SPAHN: Your Honor, I think the witness would

10 like to clarify. I'm sorry, I was incorrect.

11 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Davis, next question,

12 please.

13 Q (BY MR. DAVIS) Did you know who Osama bin Laden was whe

14 you saw him at Al Farouq?

15 A Know somewhat.

16 Q What did you know about him?

17 A I did not know much about him.

18 Q The little that you knew, what was it?

19 A I don't remember.

20 Q Did you speak with other people at Al Farouq about Osama

21 bin Laden's speech?

22 A No.

23 Q So no one spoke to you about Osama bin Laden's speech

24 while you were at Al Farouq?

25 A He was sitting in the back along with other people. He

Bl!1efiZl!1'f UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE



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1 Mr. Bin Laden speak at Al Farouq you knew that he had fought

2 the Russians in Afghanistan, would that have been the truth?

3

4

A I don't know.

THE COURT: Mr. Davis, I don't think we're getting

5 anywhere, and also, you have to keep in mind some cultural

6 context. I don't think that the kinds of questions you're

7 asking are meaningful to this witness. Just ask simple

8 straightforward factual questions.

9 MR. SPAHN: Your Honor, I think the witness would

10 like to clarify. I'm sorry, I was incorrect.

11 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Davis, next question,

12 please.

13 Q (BY MR. DAVIS) Did you know who Osama bin Laden was whe

14 you saw him at Al Farouq?

15

16

17

18

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Q

A

Q

A

Q

Know somewhat.

What did you know about him?

I did not know much about him.

The little that you knew, what was it?

I don't remember.

Did you speak with other people at Al Farouq about Osama

21 bin Laden's speech?

22

23

A

Q

No.

So no one spoke to you about Osama bin Laden's speech

24 while you were at Al Farouq?

25 A He was sitting in the back along with other people. He

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was talking.

Q Why were you surprised to see Mr. Bin Laden?

A I was surprised. I was not expecting him to talk to this

place.

Q Why not?

A Very strange. It was strange. I was not expecting.

Q You said you didn't like receiving orders at Al Farouq;

is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And you said sometimes you would follow the instructions

you were given, correct?

A That depended on my desire. If I wanted, I will do it.

Q When you left Al Farouq, how did you leave?

A To Kandahar.

Q Were you in a car?

A Yes.

Q Was it the car -- was it a car provided by the teachers

at Al Farouq?

A No.

Q Was the car provided by other attendees at Al Farouq?

A I don't know.

Q Were you told by the teachers at Al Farouq to go to Tora

Bora?

A No.

Q If your passport was in Kandahar and you wanted to get

~~@~~T




49

1 was talking.

2 Q Why were you surprised to see Mr. Bin Laden?

3 A I was surprised. I was not expecting him to talk to this

4 place.

5 Q Why not?

6 A Very strange. It was strange. I was not expecting.

7 Q You said you didn't like receiving orders at Al Farouq;

8 is that correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And you said sometimes you would follow the instructions

11 you were given, correct?

12 A That depended on my desire. If I wanted, I will do it.

13 Q When you left Al Farouq, how did you leave?

14 A To Kandahar.

15 Q Were you in a car?

16 A Yes.

17 Q Was it the car -- was it a car provided by the teachers

18 at Al Farouq?

19 A

20 Q

21 A

22 Q

23 Bora?

24 A

25 Q

No.

Was the car provided by other attendees at Al Farouq?

I don't know.

Were you told by the teachers at Al Farouq to go to Tora

No.

If your passport was in Kandahar and you wanted to get

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it, why did you go to Kabul?

A For a visit.

Q To visit who?

A To visit, to see the country, to see the city.

Q Who were you going to see the city with?

A Along with an Afghani person and a group of Arabs. There

were three.

Q How many Arabs?

A Three or four.

Q Who were they?

MR. MURPHY: Your Honor, if I may, before we have

another question. Mr. AI-Nahdi, in his view of what's going

on, is he's got two lawyers questioning him here. It seems to

me one or the other ought to do it. It could be a little

overwhelming for him to hear be double-teamed when we just

have one.

THE COURT: Well, Mr. Davis is asking the questions.

I assume he'll continue, or Mr. Bennett, are you going to do

it?

MR. BENNETT: Mr. Davis will continue, Your Honor.

I just -- when something springs to mind, I come up. If Your

Honor would prefer, I can sit back there when I'm not.

THE COURT: All right. Go ahead, Mr. Davis.

Q (BY MR. DAVIS) Were the Arabs you were traveling with

also with you at Ai Farouq?

JBeRB'!' UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE



50

1 it, why did you go to Kabul?

2 A For a visit.

3 Q To visit who?

4 A To visit, to see the country, to see the city.

5 Q Who were you going to see the city with?

6 A Along with an Afghani person and a group of Arabs. There

7 were three.

8 Q How many Arabs?

9 A Three or four.

10 Q Who were they?

11 MR. MURPHY: Your Honor, if I may, before we have

12 another question. Mr. AI-Nahdi, in his view of what's going

13 on, is he's got two lawyers questioning him here. It seems to

14 me one or the other ought to do it. It could be a little

15 overwhelming for him to hear be double-teamed when we just

16 have one.

17 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Davis is asking the questions.

18 I assume he'll continue, or Mr. Bennett, are you going to do

19 it?

20 MR. BENNETT: Mr. Davis will continue, Your Honor.

21 I just -- when something springs to mind, I come up. If Your

22 Honor would prefer, I can sit back there when I'm not.

23 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead, Mr. Davis.

24 Q (BY MR. DAVIS) Were the Arabs you were traveling with

25 also with you at Ai Farouq?

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A I don't think so.

Q How did you meet these Arabs?

A At the guesthouse in Kandahar.

Q Was this the guesthouse run by Abu Khalid?

A Yes.

Q So you stayed in this guesthouse after you left Al

Farouq; is that correct?

A Two or three days, yes.

Q And that was the guest port excuse me -- that was the

guesthouse where your passport was, correct?

A Yes.

Q Then why didn't you retrieve your passport?

A The person managing the passports was not there.

QWhere was he?

A He was not in Kandahar.

Q If you wanted to leave the country, why didn't you wait

at the guesthouse where your passport was to retrieve it?

MR. HASNAIN: Repeat again.

Q (BY MR. DAVIS) If you wanted to leave the country, why

didn't you wait at the guesthouse where your passport was?

A I waited.

Q For how long?

A Three days to one week. Approximately one week.

Q Did you wait that entire time at the guesthouse?

A Approximately, yes.

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Q


I don't think so.

How did you meet these Arabs?

At the guesthouse in Kandahar.

Was this the guesthouse run by Abu Khalid?

Yes.

So you stayed in this guesthouse after you left Al

7 Farouq; is that correct?

8 A Two or three days, yes.

51

9 Q And that was the guest port excuse me -- that was the

10 guesthouse where your passport was, correct?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Then why didn't you retrieve your passport?

13 A The person managing the passports was not there.

14 QWhere was he?

15 A He was not in Kandahar.

16 Q If you wanted to leave the country, why didn't you wait

17 at the guesthouse where your passport was to retrieve it?

18

19 Q

MR. HASNAIN: Repeat again.

(BY MR. DAVIS) If you wanted to leave the country, why

20 didn't you wait at the guesthouse where your passport was?

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A

Q

A

I waited.

For how long?

Three days to one week. Approximately one week.

Did you wait that entire time at the guesthouse?

Approximately, yes.

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Q So a few moments ago when you said you stayed there two

days, that was incorrect?

A As I said, I don't remember exactly. Eight years or one

I don't remember. You're not -- you're not asking me what I

did yesterday after the morning. You're asking me about

something about that long ago.

Q So is it fair to say your memory of these events was far

greater eight years ago than it is today?


Q Is it fair to say that your memory of what happened was

more accurate eight years ago than it is today?

A A person is not a complete person. A human being is not

a complete person.

Q I don't understand your answer, sir. Could you clarify.

A Yes.

Q Was your memory better about these events years ago than

it is today?

A No.

Q So you're saying your memory has gotten better over the

years; is that correct?

A I don't think so.

Q You heard bin Laden speak at Tora Bora, correct?

MR. HASNAIN: Can you repeat your question again,

please.

Q (BY MR. DAVIS) You heard Osama bin Laden speak at Tora

~r:;eKr:;'f




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1 Q So a few moments ago when you said you stayed there two

2 days, that was incorrect?

3 A As I said, I don't remember exactly. Eight years or one

4 I don't remember. You're not -- you're not asking me what I

5 did yesterday after the morning. You're asking me about

6 something about that long ago.

7 Q So is it fair to say your memory of these events was far

8 greater eight years ago than it is today?


10 Q Is it fair to say that your memory of what happened was

11 more accurate eight years ago than it is today?

12 A A person is not a complete person. A human being is not

13 a complete person.

14 Q I don't understand your answer, sir. Could you clarify.

15 A Yes.

16 Q Was your memory better about these events years ago than

17 it is today?

18 A No.

19 Q So you're saying your memory has gotten better over the

20 years; is that correct?

21 A I don't think so.

22 Q You heard bin Laden speak at Tora Bora, correct?

23 MR. HASNAIN: Can you repeat your question again,

24 please.

25 Q (BY MR. DAVIS) You heard Osama bin Laden speak at Tora


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Bora, correct?

A No.

Q So, to the extent that you testified that you did see him

at Tora Bora and hear him speak in your ARB proceeding, that

testimony was incorrect?

A When I said that I saw him and I said that he spoke, that

was said as a result of torture.

Q So you said that because you had been tortured?

MR. MURPHY: Objection, Your Honor, if I may.

THE COURT: Excuse me just a moment. What's the

basis?

MR. MURPHY: The basis is, they are questioning him

now about what he said at his ARB proceeding. We don't know

what he said at his ARB proceeding. We know what was written

down after a translation by someone who is not here. So to

try and impeach him on that, I think, is a bit overreach.

THE COURT: I'm going to overrule the objection.

wasn't going to discuss this with counsel until we had

finished this portion of the hearing, but I might as well

bring it up now, and that is -- let me find it. The Court of

Appeals this morning issued a very important decision, which

I'm sure you-all didn't get a chance to read at lunch.

MR. BENNETT: Actually we did, Your Honor. We got a

copy.

THE COURT: Well, let me finish, please.

OBeRET UNCLASSIFIEDIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE

I



53

1 Bora, correct?

2 A No.

3 Q So, to the extent that you testified that you did see him

4 at Tora Bora and hear him speak in your ARB proceeding, that

5 testimony was incorrect?

6 A When I said that I saw him and I said that he spoke, that

7 was said as a result of torture.

8

9

Q So you said that because you had been tortured?

MR. MURPHY: Objection, Your Honor, if I may.

10 THE COURT: Excuse me just a moment. What's the

11 basis?

12 MR. MURPHY: The basis is, they are questioning him

13 now about what he said at his ARB proceeding. We don't know

14 what he said at his ARB proceeding. We know what was written

15 down after a translation by someone who is not here. So to

16 try and impeach him on that, I think, is a bit overreach.

17 THE COURT: I'm going to overrule the objection. I

18 wasn't going to discuss this with counsel until we had

19 finished this portion of the hearing, but I might as well

20 bring it up now, and that is -- let me find it. The Court of

21 Appeals this morning issued a very important decision, which

22 I'm sure you-all didn't get a chance to read at lunch.

23

24 copy.

25

MR. BENNETT: Actually we did, Your Honor. We got a

THE COURT: Well, let me finish, please.

OBeRET UNCLASSIFIEOIIFOR PUBLIC RELEASE


54

1 Petitioners may not have it. It's all Al-Bihani versus Obama.

2 It just came out this morning. It upheld Judge Leon's denial

3 of a petition for habeas corpus.

4 Amongst the things that it did rule upon was the

5 propriety of the procedures that JUdge Leon used, which in

6 large part are quite similar, if not very similar to the

7 procedures that I have been using, and the C~urt certainly

8 upheld the use of hearsay and directly denied the - or

9 rejected the argument that translators' translations were

10 unreliable. It's a long round-about way of ITly summarizj.ng

11 that portion of the oplnion. I'm sorry to do it that way.

12 And therefore what would probably be a valid

13 objection and an ordinary procedure in the United States,

14 based upon an actual verbatim transcript, is not a sustainable

15 objection under the newest ruling of our Court of Appeals.

16 Now, I am not saying that the Court of Appeals ruled

17 precisely on the issue that you raised, but certainly the

18 tenor of the opinion would not support sustaining the

19 objection, so let's proceed. But I would like counsel for the

20 Government to proceed in a way that is A, efficient, and B,

21 really relevant. A lot of the material that you are eliciting

22 we either have in different forms in the record or questions

23 are being asked in a way that again American jurors would

24 understand because they watch television all the time, but it

25 must be very, very foreign to someone who comes from a totally

:3li':CI\E'f

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54

1 Petitioners may not have it. It's all Al-Bihani versus Obama.

2 It just came out this morning. It upheld Judge Leon's denial

3 of a petition for habeas corpus.

4 Amongst the things that it did rule upon was the

5 propriety of the procedures that Judge Leon used, which in

6 large part are quite similar, if not very similar to the

7 procedures that I have been using, and the Court certainly

8 upheld the use of hearsay and directly denied the -- or

9 rejected the argument that translators' translations were

10 unreliable. It's a long round-about way of ITly summarizj.ng

11 that portion of the oplnion. I'm sorry to do it that way.

12 And therefore what would probably be a valid

13 objection and an ordinary procedure in the United States,

14 based upon an actual verbatim transcript, is not a sustainable

15 objection under the newest ruling of our Court of Appeals.

16 Now, I a~ not saying that the Court of Appeals ruled

17 precisely on the issue that you raised, but certainly the

18 tenor of the opinion would not support sustaining the

19 objection, so let's proceed. But I would like counsel for the

20 Government to proceed in a way that is A, efficient, and B,

21 really relevant. A lot of the material that you are eliciting

22 we either have in different forms in the record or questions

23 are being asked in a way that again American jurors would

24 understand because they watch television all the time, but it

25 must be very, very foreign to someone who comes from a totally

:3!i':CI\!i':'f

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different system.

How much longer do you think you're going to be?

MR. DAVIS: We can try to finish within 15 minutes,

Your Honor.

THE COURT: Oh, I hope so. Our court reporter has

been going for two hours. I thought we could get it all done

without a break. Is there going to be redirect testimony as

well? Or I guess I should ask that of Mr. Spahn.

MR. MURPHY: I'll answer for him.

No, not so far, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Nothing like being a senior partner,

right? Okay. 15 minutes, no less -- no more, and certainly

less would be desired. Go ahead.

Mr. Bennett, sit down, please. We're going to have

Mr. Davis on his own at this point. Sooner or later that has

to happen to a lawyer.

Q (BY MR. DAVIS) Mr. AI-Nahdi, you testified at your ARB

that you did see Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora, correct?

A Yes.

Q You also testified at your ARB that he spoke about the

Jihad; is that correct?

THE COURT: Not at his ARB. He's not going to

understand that. Rephrase it.

MR. DAVIS: All right.

Q (BY MR. DAVIS) Mr. AI-Nahdi, when you previously had an




55

1 different system.

2 How much longer do you think you're going to be?

3 MR. DAVIS: We can try to finish within 15 minutes,

4 Your Honor.

5 THE COURT: Oh, I hope so. Our court reporter has

6 been going for two hours. I thought we could get it all done

7 without a break. Is there going to be redirect testimony as

8 well? Or I guess I should ask that of Mr. Spahn.

9 MR. MURPHY: I'll answer for him.

10 No, not so far, Your Honor.

11 THE COURT: Nothing like being a senior partner,

12 right? Okay. 15 minutes, no less -- no more, and certainly

13 less would be desired. Go ahead.

14 Mr. Bennett, sit down, please. We're going to have

15 Mr. Davis on his own at this point. Sooner or later that has

16 to happen to a lawyer.

17 Q (BY MR. DAVIS) Mr. AI-Nahdi, you testified at your ARB

18 that you did see Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora, correct?

19 A Yes.

20 Q You also testified at your ARB that he spoke about the

21 Jihad; is that correct?

22 THE COURT: Not at his ARB. He's not going to

23 understand that. Rephrase it.

24 MR. DAVIS: All right.

25 Q (BY MR. DAVIS) Mr. AI-Nahdi, when you previously had an



S6

1 Annual Review Board, you stated that Osama bin Laden had spoke

2 about the Jihad at Tora Bora, correct?

3 A Yes, for reasons, and the reason was torture.

4 Q You were with a group of people at Tora Bora, correct?

5 A No.

6 Q Are you saying you were by yourself at Tora Bora?

7 A There were other people with me. There were families.

8 Q Were you with a man named Abu Thabit?

9 MR. SPAHN: Excuse me. Your Honor, I don't think

10 that Suleiman was done answering that.

11 A I was around people, families, and I said that as a

12 result of torture.

:3 Q (BY MR. DAVIS) You were with a man named Abu Thabit,

14 correct?

15 A No.

16 Q You had previously told your Annual Review Board that you

17 were with Abu Thabit, correct?

18 A Yes, I said that as a result of torture.

19 THE COURT: I assume the name is going to be

20 corrected now, or is that - or did I misinterpret the last

21 communication between Government lawyers?

22 MR. DAVIS: That was not correct, the name, no, Your

23 Honor.

24 THE COURT: That's what I thought. Well, then ask

2S the question properly.

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1 Annual Review Board, you stated that Osama bin Laden had spoke

2 about the Jihad at Tora Bora, correct?

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Q

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Q

Yes, for reasons, and the reason was torture.

You were with a group of people at Tora Bora, correct?

No.

Are you saying you were by yourself at Tora Bora?

There were other people with me. There were families.

Were you with a man named Abu Thabit?

MR. SPAHN: Excuse me. Your Honor, I don't think

10 that Suleiman was done answering that.

11 A I was around people, families, and I said that as a

12 result of torture.

Q (BY MR. DAVIS) You were with a man named Abu Thabit,

14 correct?

15

16

A

Q

No.

You had previously told your Annual Review Board that you

17 were with Abu Thabit, correct?

18

19

A Yes, I said that as a result of torture.

THE COURT: I assume the name is going to be

20 corrected now, or is that -- or did I misinterpret the last

21 communication between Government lawyers?

22 MR. DAVIS: That was not correct, the name, no, Your

23 Honor.

24 THE COURT: That's what I thought. Well, then ask

2S the question properly.

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MR. DAVIS: We'll move on to another question, Your

Honor.

THE COURT: Well, then that question should be

withdrawn and is withdrawn. Go ahead, please.

Q (BY MR. DAVIS) You stated that you had a Kalishnikov

while you were at Tora Bora, correct?

A Yes, correct.

Q And you said you had this because the area Was dangerous;

is that correct?

A Good.

Q Were you -- did you think the area was dangerous because

the Northern Alliance -- the Northern Alliance was advancing?

A No, that is not correct. I was trying to go. I was -- I

was trying to flee to Pakistan to protect himself.

MR. DAVIS: Your Honor, if I could have just a

moment.

(PAUSE. )

Q (BY MR. DAVIS) Mr. AI-Nahdi, you said that locals were

digging positions into the ground; i::; that correct '?

A Yes.

Q And you were standing with your Kalishnikov near one of

these positions, correct?

A No.

Q When you left your camp in Tora Bora, you still had your

Kalishnikov with you, correct?

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57

1 MR. DAVIS: We'll move on to another question, Your

2 Honor.

3 THE COURT: Well, then that question should be

4 withdrawn and is withdrawn. Go ahead, please.

5 Q (BY MR. DAVIS) You stated that you had a Kalishnikov

6 while you were at Tora Bora, correct?

7 A Yes, correct.

8 Q And you said you had this because the area Was dangerous;

9 is that correct?

10 A Good.

11 Q Were you -- did you think the area was dangerous because

12 the Northern Alliance -- the Northern Alliance was advancing?

13 A No, that is not correct. I was trying to go. I was -- I

14 was trying to flee to Pakistan to protect himself.

15 MR. DAVIS: Your Honor, if I could have just a

16 moment.

17 (PAUSE. )

18 Q (BY MR. DAVIS) Mr. AI-Nahdi, you said that locals were

19 digging positions into the ground; i::; that correct '?

20 A Yes.

21 Q And you were standing with your Kalishnikov near one of

22 these positions, correct?

23 A No.

24 Q When you left your camp in Tora Bora, you still had your

25 Kalishnikov with you, correct?

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Q When you were trying to get out of Tora Bora, you still

had your Kalishnikov, correct?

A No.

Q Why did you abandon your Kalishnikov?

A Because I do not try to fight and I wanted to get out.

Q So when you had your Kalishnikov, it was to be prepared

to fight; lS that correct?

A No.

Q When you were leaving, you were bombed by American

forces; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And you were with a group of people at that time,

correct?

A And (unintelligible) and families, yes.

Q And you were captured -- you were captured by Afghanis,

correct?

A Yes.

Q Did you know which group these Afghanis were a part of?

A I did not know. I don't know. And they captured us and

then took us to a house.

Q And you were still i~ the Tara Bora area when that

occurred, correct?

A I moved, and I'm walking in the villages, then the raid

started and I was injured and I was taken by the Alliance.

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58


2 Q When you were trying to get out of Tora Bora, you still

3 had your Kalishnikov, correct?

4 A No.

5 Q Why did you abandon your Kalishnikov?

6 A Because I do not try to fight and I wanted to get out.

7 Q So when you had your Kalishnikov, it was to be prepared

8 to fight; 1S that correct?

9 A No.

10 Q When you were leaving, you were bombed by American

11 forces; is that correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q And you were with a group of people at that time,

14 correct?

15 A And (unintelligible) and families, yes.

16 Q And you were captured -- you were captured by Afghanis,

17 correct?

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Q

A

Yes.

Did you know which group these Afghanis were a part of?

I did not know. I don't know. And they captured us and

21 then took us to a house.

22 Q And you were still i~ the Tora Bora area when that

23 occurred, correct?

24 A I moved, and I'm walking in the villages, then the raid

25 started and I was injured and I was taken by the Alliance.

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MR. DAVIS: I think that's all, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. And there will be no

redirect.

MR. MURPHY: No redirect.

T:-lE COURT: All right. Mr. AI-Nahdi, thank you for

your testimony this afternoon. We are going to close that

portion of the hearing at this time.

All right. Mr. Cramer -

MR. HASNAIN: Will there be any other session after

this?

THE COURT: Can you turn it off now?

MS. WILHELM: Your Honor, he asked for a

clarification as to whether there will be any other session

after this, if you could just let him know.

THE COURT: Oh, we will be continuing the evidence

this afternoon. I believe that -- and the translator should

translate, even though I perceive that you do understand some

English, and then the case will continue on Thursday, but on

Thursday we will hear the evidence that relates to

Mr. A1-Assani's detention.

After that, the evidence will end, but the lawyers

will be filing some additional materials with me and they

won't file that until January 20 th . At that point I will

consider all the evidence and I will make a ruling, but I do

want you to understand, Mr. AI-Nahdi, that it takes a while to

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59

1 MR. DAVIS: I think that's all, Your Honor.

2 THE COURT: All right. And there will be no

3 redirect.

4 MR. MURPHY: No redirect.

5 T:-!E COURT: All right. Mr. AI-Nahdi, thank you for

6 your testimony this afternoon. We are going to close that

7 portion of the hearing at this time.

8 All right. Mr. Cramer --

9 MR. HASNAIN: Will there be any other session after

10 this?

11 THE COURT: Can you turn it off now?

12 MS. WILHELM: Your Honor, he asked for a

13 clarification as to whether there will be any other session

14 after this, if you could just let him know.

15 THE COURT: Oh, we will be continuing the evidence

16 this afternoon. I believe that -- and the translator should

17 translate, even though I perceive that you do understand some

18 English, and then the case will continue on Thursday, but on

19 Thursday we will hear the evidence that relates to

20 Mr. A1-Assani's detention.

21 After that, the evidence will end, but the lawyers

22 will be filing some additional materials with me and they

23 won't file that until January 20 th . At that point I will

24 consider all the evidence and I will make a ruling, but I do

25 want you to understand, Mr. Al-Nahdi, that it takes a while to

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go over the evidence and to come to a conclusion, so it may be

a short while after January 20 th before there is a final

decision by me. And then, of course, whoever does not win may

take an appeal to a higher court.

Would you tell him that, please.

I'm sorry. Your Honor, this is the

SJA. Our main tape has ended. Would you like us to put in

another one so you can finish this up?

THE COURT: Did you-all understand? I could not.

MR. BENNETT: She asked for the tape.

This is the SJA. Our recording as

ended. We can put in another tape to finish this up if you

will give us a second.

THE COURT: Well, I'm sorry', I'm just not -

MR. MURPHY: They ran out of tape.

THE COURT: Well, after this -- we'll end at this

point and then the interpreter can give that information to

Mr. AI-Nahdi so that we don't have to lose anymore time this

afternoon. Okay.

(END OF VIDEO CONFERENCE.)

THE COURT: My apologies to our court reporter. I

didn't think we'd be this long. We're going to move back to

our courtroom, and let's reassemble at 4:00 o'clock everyone.

THE DEPUTY CLERK: This court is in recess until

4:00 p.m.

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60

1 go over the evidence and to come to a conclusion, so it may be

2 a short while after January 20 th before there is a final

3 decision by me. And then, of course, whoever does not win may

4 take an appeal to a higher court.

5 Would you tell him that, please.

6 I'm sorry. Your Honor, this is the

7 SJA. Our main tape has ended. Would you like us to put in

8 another one so you can finish this up?

9 THE COURT: Did you-all understand? I could not.

10 MR. BENNETT: She asked for the tape.

11 This is the SJA. Our recording as

12 ended. We can put in another tape to finish this up if you

13 will give us a second.

14 THE COURT: Well, I'm sorry', I'm just not --

15 MR. MURPHY: They ran out of tape.

16 THE COURT: Well, after this -- we'll end at this

17 point and then the interpreter can give that information to

18 Mr. AI-Nahdi so that we don't have to lose anymore time this

19 afternoon. Okay.

20 (END OF VIDEO CONFERENCE.)

21 THE COURT: My apologies to our court reporter. I

22 didn't think we'd be this long. We're going to move back to

23 our courtroom, and let's reassemble at 4:00 o'clock everyone.

24

25 4:00 p.m.

THE DEPUTY CLERK: This court is in recess until

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(A RECESS WAS TAKEN - 3:35 P.M.)

*-*-*-*

CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER

I, Catalina Kerr, certify that the foregoing is a

correct transcript from the record of proceedings in the

above-entitled matter.




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1 (A RECESS WAS TAKEN - 3:35 P.M.)

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3 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER

4 I, Catalina Kerr, certify that the foregoing is a

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