Working Paper Series Working Paper Series Working Paper Series Work In Progress

Outside the Circle? The Relational Implications for

White Women Working Against Racism

Beverly Daniel Tatum Ph.D. Elizabeth Knaplund M.A.

(1996) Paper No. 78Jean Baker Miller Training Instituteat the Wellesley Centers for Women

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Outside the Circle? The RelationalImplications for White Women WorkingAgainst Racism

Beverly Daniel Tatum, Ph.D.Elizabeth Garrick Knaplund, M.A.

About the AuthorsBeverly Daniel Tatum, Ph.D. is Professor of

Psychology and Education at Mount Holyoke College inSouth Hadley, Massachusetts where she teaches a courseon the psychology of racism. She has been a VisitingScholar at the Stone Center, and is a licensed clinicalpsychologist.

Elizabeth Garrick Knaplund, M.A. has recentlycompleted her graduate studies at Mount Holyoke College,where she has conducted research on the experiences ofWhite women working against racism.

AbstractWhat leads White women to speak up against racism,

an action which threatens their own racial privilege?What are the relational implications of doing so? Based oninterviews with eight White women educators who arehave assumed positions of leadership in their schooldistricts as part of an anti-racist initiative, this paperexplores the relational origins of their activism and itsimplications for their own relational growth anddevelopment.

Several years ago we read Outside the Magic Circle(Barnard, 1985), the autobiography of Virginia FosterDurr, a Southern White woman, born in 1905, whospent most of her adult life working for social justicein the South. She described her early life as one ofgreat privilege and of pervasive racism, a world ofBlack servants and assumed White superiority. Shewas raised to be a “Southern belle.” But when as anadult she began speaking up about racism, shequickly found that she had stepped “outside themagic circle.” Despite many social and economicpressures to step back into the circle of privilege, sheand her husband, Clifford Durr, continued their civilrights work throughout their lives.

What leads people like Virginia Foster Durr andothers to step outside the circle? What are therelational implications of doing so? How do theymaintain their stance on the margins of society withthose who are oppressed? As has been discussedelsewhere (Tatum, 1994), the stories of White womenand men who have chosen to actively interrupt racismand stand in solidarity with oppressed people are notwell known. Yet, Beverly, as an anti-racist educatorteaching students about the psychology of racism, hasfound that her students, most of whom are Whitewomen, are desperately in need of examples.

As they become aware of the still pervasiveracism in our society, they are often moved to actagainst it. They struggle with their own fears aboutstepping outside the circle of White privilege andsearch for role models who might show them how itis done. When Beverly invites a White activist tospeak to her class about her own personal journeytoward an awareness of racism and her developmentas a White ally, the questions students most often askclearly reflect relational concerns. “Did you losefriends when you started to speak up?” “How do you

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deal with your relatives when they make racistremarks?” “My boyfriend is so prejudiced! What canI do?” Their anxiety about the potential for socialisolation is apparent. The students seem to feel thatthey are standing on the edge of the wilderness, andthere is great fear about being out there alone. Thevoices of those who are already out there blazing thetrail need amplification.

It is clear that these students need to have thelives of White people who are working against racismmade more visible, and the relational implications ofthat work need to be examined. It is this examinationthat is the focus of this paper.

Setting the contextThe eight White women whose lives we will be

discussing have several things in common. They areall experienced public school educators, ranging inage from 37 to 55. The predominantly Whitesuburban districts they represent are all located in thegreater Boston area. These school districts are allparticipating in the METCO program, a voluntarydesegregation program which brings Boston studentsof color, most of whom are African-American, to theirschools. All of the women were participants in a pilotprofessional development course sponsored by theirschool districts which focused on issues of race andracism in schools.

Following the completion of the 54-hour course,in the spring of 1994, all course participants wereoffered the opportunity to receive additional trainingand support to assume a leadership role in theirdistricts, working with other faculty and staff as anti-racist peer educators. These eight White women,along with two women of color and two White men,volunteered to become “district trainers.”

After a four-day training workshop which tookplace in the summer of 1994, the district trainersplanned and implemented various kinds of anti-racistactivities (mini-courses, study groups, parentworkshops) in their districts during the 1994-95school year. They also had the opportunity to meetbi-monthly after school to talk with each other aboutwhat they were doing, sharing ideas and problem-solving as necessary.

During this time, Beverly was one of theinstructors for the professional development courseand the four-day training workshop. She alsofacilitated the district trainer support group meetings.During those meetings, she was often struck by how

often the White trainers talked about feeling “out on alimb” with their colleagues. As they became moreidentified with an anti-racist perspective, somecolleagues sought them out for advice about racialissues, but others seemed to now view them withsome suspicion. These White women seemed to bedescribing the kind of social pressure identified byHelms (1990) as common when White racialawareness increases and anti-racist action isinitiated.1

We became increasingly interested in knowingmore about how their relationships with family,friends and colleagues were being impacted by theiranti-racist work. We collaborated to develop aninterview guide for use with the White districttrainers. Elizabeth, then a graduate student inpsychology and education, conducted the individualinterviews, and we have been working together toanalyze the data in terms of the relational themes.Data from the interviews with the eight White womenwill be presented here. We will first provide adescription of some of their experiences and thendiscuss the implications of those experiences forrelational theory. All names used to refer to theparticipants are pseudonyms.

Relational roots of an anti-racist identityThe personal histories of the eight women are

varied. Most grew up in predominantly Whitesuburban or rural communities, but two were raisedin racially-mixed urban settings. While one womandescribed her family as “very conservative”and twoothers related clear examples of parental racism, thefive remaining women described having at least oneliberal parent who modeled openness to othercultures and respect for racial differences. In somecases, religious messages about equality, fairness, andcompassion for others were also important earlyinfluences. Yet for all, their limited contact withpeople of color contributed to a very naiveunderstanding of racial issues until adulthood.

It was in their college years or later that they hadeducational and/or social experiences whichheightened their awareness. For example, Anna said:

I went to a [weekend] workshop on racismwhen I was 20, in college. And that had avery powerful effect . . . I really remember somuch about that, even now I could quotesome things that were said there . . . I reallyrealized in a big way that we had to make up

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for wrongs that weren’t our fault but that oursociety still had problems with.

For Wendy, it was in the context of her relationshipwith a Black college roommate that she first becameaware of race. Olivia dated interracially and in sodoing became the target of racial insults herself. Asyoung wives and mothers, Jackie and Rachel both hadthe experience of living in Southern states andobserving the legacy of segregation firsthand. SaidRachel:

A lot of the experiences I had I think reallykind of angered me and made me feelpeculiar, uncomfortable. And I think thatdissonance really kind of got me going, but Ididn’t know what to do with it; I didn’t knowwhere to go.

For these women, the opportunity to developrelationships with people of color in their workplacealso became critical to their understanding. Six of theeight women specifically mentioned a relationshipwith an African-American colleague as significant.Martha and Jackie both described relationships withBlack female colleagues, in particular:

She’s really enabled me to talk very frankly. . . .I hope she never feels like I’m asking herquestions as a representative, but as herself.That’s been a very special relationship. I [feel] very close to her. This was my firstreally close relationship with an African-American woman and I’ve really learned a lotabout how difficult her life has been andmany other people’s that I know. And so I’vehad a heightened awareness, but I knew that Ineeded to learn more about racism. And Iwas drawn to it when I was asked to take thecourse; I was really drawn to it like a magnet.

For Anna it was relationships with African-Americanstudents that were transformative:

Always my biggest challenges were Blackstudents . . . I may not have been able toarticulate it at the time, but when people pushenough of those buttons or something, there’ssomething to it. There’s something more to it. . . you have to really look inside and seewhat it is they stir up in you. . . . And so the more I got into situations likethat, what I did was I started traveling. And Igot very curious about what I didn’t know. Iwould go to Washington, I went to SanFrancisco . . . I put myself in situations

deliberately to acquire more base information. . . I felt like I was working on several tracksat once: you know, the personal track ofwhere was I coming from, what was my ownhistory with matters of race, what was myown experience being around people differentfrom me, getting . . . an educational piece, andthen the work with teachers . . . is like a wholeother thing.

For all of the women, these experiences in their earlyadulthood had opened the door to the exploration ofrace, but they varied in the degree to which they hadstepped through that opening.

Breaking the silence: Talking about raceThough the roots of their anti-racist perspective

were in place before the professional developmentcourse was made available to them, their involvementin the anti-racist initiative provided an opportunity totravel further. It allowed them to deepen theirknowledge, provided a framework for understandingsome of their previous experiences, and encouragedthem to act on that understanding. Feeling a newfreedom to talk about racism was empowering. SaidAnna:

I didn’t always have the language for dealingwith it. You know, I knew it; I could see it, Icould tell you that I’ve seen it here, you know,numbers of times . . . Being the Diversitychair, I would keep bringing the same issuesto the table: how are we going to move thecurriculum; how are we going to get peopleeducated; how are we going to . . . get peopleto adjust to the real issues that happen. Andpeople would bring issues that happened inthe school to the table and scratch their heads.Like even sometimes at the Diversitymeetings, people would really, like they’d sayracist things right at the table! And youknow, sometimes we had to address themright then and there and say, “Well, let’s backup.” You know, oh, it was terrible . . . Youcan get as educated as you want, but if youhaven’t talked about racism, it doesn’t really .. . I mean, you gotta factor that in, big time.

Martha also felt strengthened to talk freely aboutracial issues and is now better able to advocateeffectively for the needs of Boston students as a result:

It’s given me a vocabulary in some way, eventhough it’s not a new vocabulary, to talk to

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teachers about Boston kids in their classrooms. . . it’s a discussion I never was comfortableenough to have. I mean I think I did withpeople I really knew, but [now] I’ll have thatwith anybody; I’ll take anyone on (laughs).

To Olivia, breaking the silence is what anti-racismis about, “having the conversation”:

I’m interested in talking about race andracism and there’s not a lot of White peoplewho talk about race, you know. That’s notsomething Whites talk about because they arepart of the dominant culture. They don’t seetheir Whiteness . . . I should say WE, not they,we don’t see it . . . It’s invisible to us. I’minterested in making it not invisible anymore. . . . The thing that’s happened for me is thatI’m no longer afraid to bring [race] up. I lookto bring it up; I love bringing it up.

As a district trainer, Olivia brings it up regularly withher colleagues, and they, like she, seem to feelliberated by the opportunity. Describing a discussiongroup in which participants talked about racial issues,she said:

It was such a rich conversation and it justflowed the whole time. It was exciting to be apart of it and everybody contributed andeverybody had their say. And everybody feltthe energy and the desire . . . It was a mixedgroup, predominantly White with maybe one-third African-American. There was a need forthat to talk about what was going on in ourown system and our own building.

Sometimes the conversations are one-on-one andmore confrontational, as seen in Kathy’s example:

There was a colleague that said somethingabout the METCO students, “What do theyexactly add to this school?” I listened to itonce and I made all kinds of, you know,reasons why it was important, and he said itto me again a couple of weeks later, and I wasjust so irritated, he just wasn’t listening. AndI said, “Well, that’s really White of you, isn’tit, to consider them useless,” and he walkedin his room and didn’t come out for like threedays to speak to me. But after that, he tookthe course [on racism] and he started talkingabout it, I think it really made him think.

Kathy acknowledged that her remark was “not-so-nice” but she said, “I don’t think anything else wouldhave worked.” Anna agrees that:

Sometimes you have to take stances wherepeople just, I mean, maybe they say, youknow, ‘the hell with her’ when you leave, butmaybe they say, ‘Whew, I didn’t know that.’[Sometimes I think] it kind of just spurted outand maybe I should have framed it a littlenicer, but sometimes if you’re too nice, peopledon’t get off the dime.

Out on a limb? The relational impact of an anti-racism perspective

Given the freedom they have claimed to speaktheir truth about racial issues, it is appropriate to askhow their relationships with family, friends andcolleagues have been affected. As they have steppedoutside the circle, have others stepped with them? Orare they standing alone? In the context of work, mostdescribed feeling a remarkable amount of support.Most have worked in their school districts for a longtime. Several of the women mentioned the longevityof their collegial relationships as a positive factor inthe work that they were trying to do. Theircolleagues have come to respect them as sincere,thoughtful individuals who have been leaders in theirschool communities. In some cases there has alsobeen very strong administrative support whichcertainly has strengthened the women in their roles.Even when there has been conflict, it seems that anunderlying sense of respect has remained betweencolleagues.

Nevertheless, it is a challenge to know how toeducate, and not alienate, a peer on a subject assensitive as race. The anxiety is apparent in thisteacher’s comment:

I get really scared at some of the things thatcome up. And I’ve never been so nervous inmy life as I have been professionally . . .facilitating that anti-racist study group.Believe me, there are people at 99 differentlevels and there are only 12 people in theroom . . . It’s unbelievable. And it feels veryoverwhelming . . . I haven’t always been ableto figure out what to do because something[someone says] is so bad that it’s hard toknow how the person will take it. But I have,you know, done it. I’ve done it with, youknow, the gentlest gloves I can find; I mean Idon’t assault anybody. I think it takespractice to know how to confront thosethings; you kind of do it and pray and then,

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you know, you do and then you do it again,and you do it again and again . . . I honestlyfeel that I haven’t . . . there’s nobody thathates my guts yet.

The fact that the professional role of districttrainer carries with it a certain degree ofadministrative support and a formal acknowledgmentof one’s status as a school leader may help pave theroad for these anti-racist educators. This institutionalcontext falls away when dealing with strangersoutside of school, and then the task of speakingagainst racism feels more difficult to some. Forexample, Kathy commented:

Sometimes in the community it is very hard.At town meeting for example, occasionallyyou will get someone who will stand up andsay things like, ‘Well, we can’t really affordthe METCO program,’ or ‘Well, what do youmean we need federal funding for housingbecause those Haitians could move right inhere,’ which is, I would think, a code word forsome kind of racism. That’s when it’sdifficult because normally I wouldn’t knowthose people. . . .

A commitment to interrupting racism inevitablyimpacts social relationships. There are many socialsituations when Whites are invited to engage in whatChristine Sleeter (1995) calls “White racial bonding”,for example, to join in the laughter when an ethnicjoke is told, to agree implicitly or explicitly with racistcomments about people of color. When Whites refuseto bond in that way, there is a rupture in socialexpectations. These teachers have begun toexperience that as they speak up more often.

Several mentioned interrupting jokes at parties,often to the surprise and dismay of their companions.Rachel described in detail an encounter at a gasstation with an attendant who casually used a racialslur to describe two Black men who were passing by.He turned to her and said, “They’re just everywhere,you just can’t avoid them I guess, even living out[here].” Rachel responded:

I looked at him and I said, ‘Well why wouldyou want to avoid that?’ And he looked at melike I was crazy. ‘Well you know what Imean,’ he said. And I said, ‘Well, you know, Ireally, I don’t know what you mean; it makesme very uncomfortable to hear you talk likethat. Those are two men walking down thestreet minding their own business . . . I have

to tell you I don’t share your view.’ And heimmediately shut up.

Friendships forged at school around the anti-racist work are especially strong. All of the womencommented on the importance of these workplaceconnections. As Wendy said, “You can’t do reallydifficult work like this without developingtremendous bonds with people because it’s sodifficult.” For Martha, it has allowed her to growclose to an African-American woman in a way shenever would have otherwise. She said:

Getting to know [her] has just been a treat . . .she’s just a really good friend. It’s really nicebecause there’s no way, given the structure ofthe system, that I would have gotten to knowher as a friend; I would have gotten to knowher as a colleague, but it’s very different thana friend.

When friends don’t share their anti-racistperspective, there is a potential for conflict. Olivia isdating a White man who does not understand Whiteprivilege in the way she does, yet he is willing toengage with her in dialogue about it, and she remainsin relationship with him. Rachel, whose deepenedcommitment to working against racism is relativelyrecent, has found that some of her friendships haveneeded to change. Some friends have grown withher, other relationships have been abandoned. Jackie,too, has relationships in transition. She explained:

I have some friends that I’ve known for manyyears that have some pretty, pretty racistattitudes and it really disturbs me. So it’scausing some upheaval . . . [Has that beengoing on for a while?] I would say it’s beengoing on a little bit, but since I took the courseit’s been going on in a stronger way becausemy awareness has been heightened. Andwhen you learn something, you become acrusader (chuckles).

Anna is a woman whose anti-racist involvementspans two decades and this fact has been a significantdeterminant of who she calls her friends. For her, lifeis too short for it to be otherwise. She explained:

The people that I call my friends areconcerned about these issues . . . generallyspeaking, I don’t spend time with people thatdon’t care about the things that I care about.And you know what, I didn’t just decide that,it’s just the way it is . . . if I were to decidenow, I’d say, ‘Well, I don’t have time for the

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bullshit, really’ . . . I mean I truly don’t . . .how can I make time for that in my life in away. I couldn’t.

And my family would be an exception to that. AsAnna’s statement highlights, we choose our friends,but usually not our family. Perhaps not surprisingly,racism within the family seemed the hardest toconfront. As one woman said, “My parents just don’thave a clue. They’re not gonna have a clue . . . so Idon’t talk very much about it with them.” Anotheralso chooses her battles. She explained:

I don’t ask from [people] what I don’t thinkthey are capable of giving. My father-in-lawis pretty staunch in his [racist] beliefs; I justsay, ‘I don’t want to hear it, I’m not going totalk to you about that.’ I don’t think at 78 I’mgoing to change his beliefs and I’m only goingto get frustrated and angry at him and, youknow, he doesn’t have much longer . . . I’dmuch rather put my energies into my 15 yearold who can make a difference.

One woman, raised in a liberal family, is especiallypained by the contradictions she now sees betweenexpressed parental attitudes and behaviors:

I feel like my brother is a real racist andthere’s not much I can do about it. And I feellike my mother condones this from him, andyet she was so significant in my life [becauseof her openness]. I mean my view of her wasthat she didn’t tolerate this kind of behavior . . .and yet I see her now that my brother is anadult, she just, she doesn’t say anything. Thatgrieves me a lot.

For another teacher, race has been a toxic subjectin her family for more than thirty years, ever since abrother married interracially. Many members of thefamily ostracized him, and though the marriage didnot last, the alienation between family members stillexists. As she said, her brother “draws the line in thesand with the family over that incident.” Since takingthe anti-racism course and expanding her ownunderstanding of racism, she has been better able toconnect with this brother, and has worked as amediator to heal this family wound.

Racism: A relational barrierIt should not be surprising that anti-racism work

might have relational implications. Racism alienatesone from both self and others. As Beverly hasdiscussed in earlier Stone Center papers (Tatum, 1993;

Ayvazian & Tatum, 1994), everyday racism, as itmanifests itself in our daily interactions, representsempathic failure.

Judith Jordan (1986) has described the power ofmutual empathy as a source of growth in relationwith others. She writes:

Mutual empathy occurs when two peoplerelate to each other in a context of interest inthe other, emotional availability andresponsiveness, cognitive appreciation of thewholeness of the other; the intent is tounderstand. While some mutual empathyinvolves an acknowledgment of sameness inthe other, an appreciation of the differentnessof the other’s experience is also vital. Themovement toward the other’s differentness isactually central to growth in relationships andalso can provide a powerful sense ofvalidation for both self and other. Growthoccurs because as I stretch to match orunderstand your experience, something newis acknowledged or grows in me.

Racism clearly interferes with this process. Whena person discriminates intentionally, orunintentionally acts on the basis of internalized racialstereotypes, the acknowledgment of sameness isdiminished. If fear of the “other” has been learnedand remains unexamined, the emotional availabilityneeded for empathic response is reduced.Conversely, if one has been raised to be ‘color-blind’,one’s capacity to appreciate the differentness of theother’s experience may be impaired. If an individual,in the context of a still race-conscious society, cannotacknowledge the significance of race in her life or thelives of others, it may be impossible to move “towardthe other’s differentness” in a truly empathic way.The disconnecting effect of such empathic failures onBlack women has been discussed in my Stone Centerpaper, Racial Identity Development and RelationalTheory: The Case of Black Women in White Communities.

Here we would like to discuss not only the wayracism disconnects Whites from people of color, butalso the way racism disconnects Whites fromthemselves. As Jean Baker Miller (1988) has discussedin her paper, Connections, Disconnections, andViolations, when we have meaningful experiences, weusually seek to share the experience with someoneelse. In doing so, we hope to be heard andunderstood, to feel validated by the other. When wedo not feel heard by the person with whom we are

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engaged, we feel invalidated. A relationaldisconnection has taken place. We might try again,persisting in our efforts to be heard, or we maychoose to disconnect from that person. If doing sowould be too painful, then we may disconnect fromthat dimension of our experience, in hope of beingable to connect with the other person in a differentway.

In this context, many Whites in their youth havebeen encouraged to disconnect from their racialexperiences. For example, when White children makeracial observations about people of color, they areoften silenced by their parents, who feeluncomfortable and unsure about how to respond.They may observe contradictions between parentalattitudes and behaviors, or between societal messagesabout meritocracy and visible inequities, but thesocial taboo which exists in White society abouttalking about race makes it difficult for them toprocess these experiences. In order to prevent chronicdiscomfort, they may learn to “not notice.”

But in “not noticing” one loses opportunities forgreater insight into oneself and one’s own experience.A significant dimension of who one is in the world,one’s Whiteness, remains uninvestigated andperceptions of daily experience are routinelydistorted. Privilege goes unnoticed, and all but themost blatant acts of racial bigotry are ignored. “Notnoticing” requires energy. Exactly how much energyis used up in this way becomes apparent when theopportunity to explore those silenced perceptions ismade available. It is as though a blockage has beenremoved and energy is released.

According to Jean Baker Miller, when arelationship is growth-producing, it results in fivegood things: increased zest, a sense of empowerment,greater knowledge, an increased sense of self-worthand a desire for more connection. It is quite strikingto see that as Whites begin to explore their racialexperiences in a validating setting, there is abundantevidence of these “five good things.”

Listen again to Olivia’s description of a discussiongroup on racial issues that she facilitated:

It was such a rich conversation and it justflowed the whole time. It was exciting to be apart of it and everybody contributed andeverybody had their say. And everybody feltthe energy and the desire. . . .

Another woman described the process of sharing thenew information she has learned with her adult son,

and said, “There’s a lot of energy that’s going in allsorts of ways—it feels wonderful.” Yet anotherdescribed her own exploration of racial issues as“renewal at mid-life.” The increased self-knowledgeshe has experienced is apparent as she says, “I’mcontinuing to go down the path of discovery formyself about what I think and what I believe and theinfluences I’ve had in my life . . . it impacts me almostevery moment of my waking hours.” These benefitsof self-discovery are made available as the silenceabout racism is broken.

It is important to say that even as good thingsare generated, the growth process is not necessarilypainless, as these teachers know well. Racheldescribed the early phase of her exploration of racismas “hell”, a state of constant dissonance. Andbreaking the silence requires courage. Judith Jordan(1990) wrote:

It takes courage to speak up, to be authenticin the presence of unknown others, especiallyif it puts you at odds with the dominantvoice. In such situations, we feel the innerstruggle, wishing to keep the connection witha supposedly protective, dominant group butknowing that the cost of this protection is oursilence and invalidation. In order to speak upagainst injustice for a reality that we value,however, we will have to risk these rupturesand count on other connections to sustain us.

Are these women out on a limb? Have they steppedoutside the circle? Without a doubt. In one way oranother, they all feel the risk. But they have learnedthat connections to others on the same path cansustain them. Said one:

How do I feel about the fact that I might beinfluencing large groups of people? Well, in away, I’m proud of it, I’m scared about itbecause it puts me out in the forefront, it’s avulnerable position. I think a lot of peopleneed to do it and sometimes I feel alone, soit’s lonely. That’s why it’s nice to havecolleagues that have gone through the courseand it’s nice to have the [support] groupbecause we talk about these things. But Iwould never say I wish I hadn’t gotteninvolved in it. It’s very important, and I hopeto see some positive changes.

And when the changes become visible, there isgreat satisfaction. You can hear it in Wendy’s voicewhen she says:

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. . . It fills me with great joy when thingshappen like happened this morning, youknow, when I hear people talking about thisin the lunch room or in the hall. I think thatbringing it to that level of awareness has gotto bring about change. And when I hear kidstalking about it, when I hear the kids callingone another on things that are said, it’s atremendous amount of satisfaction.

Like Virginia Foster Durr and many others, theseWhite women have stepped outside the magic circleto make social change. In the process, somerelationships have changed, but even moresignificantly, they have changed themselves. AsRachel says, "I’m not the same person I was. I’vereally grown, and there’s no going back."

Discussion Summary:A discussion is held after each colloquium

presentation. Selected portions of the discussion aresummarized here. At this session Drs. Sandra Lawrence,Jean Baker Miller, Janet Surrey, and Ms. ElizabethKnaplund joined Dr. Tatum in leading the discussion.

Question: I appreciated hearing about theseWhite women who were speaking up about racism. Ifind that I am often in situations where familymembers or friends make racist comments and I amreally uncomfortable, especially now that I havechildren. I don’t want my children to develop thoseattitudes. How can I respond?

Tatum: A strategy I share with my students is astrategy called the three F’s: felt, found, feel. Whenyou talk to someone who you see as similar to you insome way, you can connect with them in yoursimilarity, but then show him/her how you havemoved to another place in your thinking, “I felt thatway, I found out this new information, now I feel thisway about that issue.” You are speaking from an “I”perspective, you are not saying, “Oh, you idiot!” andthe person responds less defensively than they might.

Lawrence: In my work with undergraduates andalso in my own life, I find that you may not alwayshave those three things worked out; the commentscome so quickly. You can say, “I feel reallyuncomfortable about that, something about that is nottrue. I don’t really have my whole head around it yet,but that’s not acceptable.” It is hard, though.

Question: Do the women feel supported in theirschools?

Tatum: Two of the women worked together inthe same building, and everybody on their team nowhas had some anti-racist professional development sothey really feel that there is getting to be a criticalmass of people in their building who understand theissues or at least are sympathetic to them. In othercases, people are quite isolated.

Question: What role does guilt play as amotivating factor?

Lawrence: I don’t know whether I’d say guilt is amotivating factor, but it is one of the feelings. In mywork with White undergraduates and in my own life,finally seeing the race privilege that we have, you dofeel guilt. But then what you do with the guilt, that’sthe next step. Looking at White undergraduates intheir racial identity, how they deal with the guilt interms of moving through the stages, you can see thatthey’re not going to stay with the guilt too long. Sowhat construct are they going to use to make somesense out of it. Sometimes their guilt can be sooverbearing that they may blame the victim for theuncomfortable feelings they feel. But if they acceptresponsibility, “Okay, this has happened. I didn’tknow before, but I see things differently now, I’mgoing to change my life, I want to make thingsbetter.” Then that can help them . . . Guilt in and ofitself is not the primary motivator.

Tatum: I would certainly agree with what Sandysaid. I don’t know if you are familiar with JanetHelms’ model of White racial identity, but she talksabout guilt being very prominent in the early stage ofWhite identity development.

One of the things that I was really struck by anddidn’t really address in this paper is the role ofreligion or spirituality in terms of people’s thinkingabout the work that they’re doing. Several peoplegrew up or were involved in religious communities aschildren, though all may not be still involvedpresently (some are). That was certainly a piece of it,in terms of thinking what it means to be a child ofGod as we all are. One person in particular has a verystrong Catholic background and she talked a lot aboutthe idea of sin, that it’s such a sin that this ishappening.

Knaplund: In addition to that, people who didnot necessarily connect with a spiritual or religioustradition talked about religious values that they hadinternalized in childhood. So when I asked them that

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question, they talked about values of fairness andjustice.

Question: In Becky Thompson’s work on Whiteidentity, she has observed that many women workingagainst racism have in their background a history ofsexual abuse. Guilt is sometimes a legacy of that kindof childhood history and may influence their anti-racism work. Did you observe a pattern of this kind?

Tatum: I am certainly not aware of that as anissue for any of the women that were interviewed. Itwasn’t something that we inquired about, and itdidn’t come up spontaneously. But in response toyour question, I was thinking about the experience ofbeing oppressed and that the experience of abusewould allow you to empathize with the experience ofbeing oppressed, providing a point of connection.Generally speaking, I find that there are more Whitewomen engaged in anti-racism work than White men,and I think that in part comes from White women’sunderstanding of sexism. But when I meet Whitemen who are engaged in anti-racism work, youusually find some history of oppression, notnecessarily sexual abuse, but maybe they grew upJewish in a largely Christian community, or maybethey are gay and have been oppressed in terms ofsexual orientation, or they have a sibling who is gay,or perhaps grew up in a multiracial family. There isusually some connection to oppression in theirpersonal life. So, the experience of being abused andthe oppression around that may make you verysensitive to oppression issues. The question youasked about guilt may also be a factor, but I don’thave any information about that.

Miller: Along with any oppression, usually thereis a silencing. When you think about sexual abuseespecially, there’s huge silencing; so there can be anunderstanding of oppression from the perspective ofwhat it means to be so silenced. Then finally beingable to speak is such a growth experience, as Beverlydiscussed in the paper, it may lead people on to domore.

Question: How are these White women workingor struggling to unlearn their own racism?

Tatum: In addition to the support group thatthey come to as part of their role as district trainers,meeting with me, several of the women have beenmeeting together in a group they call, “Us WhiteGirls.” The fact that they are meeting to talk aboutthese issues is one way they are doing it. I think somepeople are more fully engaged in that process thanothers.

The concept of White privilege and understandingone’s privilege was for many people an idea that wasnew to them. They were aware of racism and couldsee other people being targeted but didn’t necessarilyrecognize their own privilege. Since then they havebeen working with that concept and the other ideathat has come from the course is the usefulness ofcaucus groups. Not everything has to be doneinterracially. As I mentioned in the paper, some ofthem talked about the value of the cross-racialfriendships they have, wishing there was moreopportunity to make others, really feeling a need forthat. At the same time, part of the learning for them isthat there is work that White people need to do ontheir own, and I think they all are engaged in that.

Lawrence: It’s not that the process has to becomplete before you take action. But we can do it inconjunction.

Surrey: I am having this experience while being aWhite mother of a child of color, learning to be a“mother ally”. My daughter is in preschool now, andI am learning to keep raising the issue, askingquestions. Sometimes I’m seen as making too muchof a big deal about it. You have to deal with yourown confusion, not always knowing what to do. Butchildren notice racial differences, and adults arereluctant to talk about it. Sometimes it’s what you seenot happening that is upsetting, when you see thingsare not being dealt with, not being talked about.

Tatum: One of the things that has happened notjust with these women, but with all the teachers whohave taken the course (there are now over 200), is thatthey are much more comfortable raising issues of racein their classrooms. That’s one of the immediatechanges we’ve seen.

Knaplund: One teacher mentioned an examplewhere she was reading a book aloud to the class, andsuddenly realized that the book she was reading wasvery racist. She wondered to herself, “What should Ido? Should I finish reading the book? Should we talkabout the issue right now?” It seems that more andmore people are seeing the issues come up and aredoing away with the lesson plan and talking about itright then and there. They are more comfortablebreaking the silence.

1Although the group of district trainers included two Whitemen, the men did not regularly attend the support groupmeetings. One man has never attended because ofscheduling conflicts and another has attended onlysporadically.

(C)1996 Tatum, B; Knaplund,E.

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ReferencesAyvazian, A. and Tatum, B. D. (1994). Women, race

and racism: A dialogue in black and white.Work in Progress, No. 68. Wellesley, MA: StoneCenter Working Paper Series.

Barnard, H. F. (Ed.). (1985). Outside the magic circle:The autobiography of Virginia Foster Durr.Tuscaloosa: University of Alabama Press.

Helms, J. E. (Ed.). (1990). Black and white racialidentity: Theory, research and practice. Westport,CT: Greenwood Press.

Jordan, J. V. (1986). The meaning of mutuality. Workin Progress, No. 23. Wellesley, MA: Stone CenterWorking Paper Series.

Jordan, J. V. (1990). Courage in connection: Conflict,compassion, creativity. Work in Progress, No. 45.Wellesley, MA: Stone Center Working PaperSeries.

Miller, J. B. (1988). Connections, disconnections andviolations. Work in Progress, No. 33 . Wellesley,MA: Stone Center Working Paper Series.

Sleeter, C. (1994). White racism. Multiculturaleducation. 5-8, 39.

Tatum, B. D. (1993). Racial identity development andrelational theory: The case of black women inwhite communities. Work in Progress, No. 63 .Wellesley, MA: Stone Center Working PaperSeries.