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Red Lake Indian Reservation – Wikipedia

Red Lake Indian Reservation

Mississippi River Band of Chippewa Indians – Wikipedia

Leech Lake Indian Reservation

living with "Indian Reorganization,"

living with "The Indian New Deal,"

land "management"

welfare,

and a the U.S. government [programs]

Image is already online

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Red Lake Leech Lake White EarthXxx zzz

Xxx zzz

“Indian Reorganization”Land

Tribal soverentyLand loss

“The Indian New Deal”Xxx zzz

Xxx zzz

land "managementForestry (US Forest Service) /Conservation (MN DNR)

MinesRivers/dams

Xxx zzz

Xxx zzz

welfareXxx zzz

Xxx zzz

the U.S. governmentWPA

CAP vista

Xxx zzz

Xxx zzz

xxxXxx zzz

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5. Red Lake; Peter Graves; Leadership; Jobs; Forestry; Laws

[20-18A] Well, As far back as the beginning, the Mississippi Indians [xxxaddftnt] were

going along good with their councils. [ftnt councils ch] And each chief worked together

on that council. And in that area where they live they had different requests; they had

different problems. So by that way they worked together.

So now, Red Lake wanted to withdraw [from xxx] to run their own government,

because it was so hard for them to come into our council [xxxmeetings]. [And] It was so

hard for us to council up there. The transportation those days was hard. [20-18b] It

was hard to get there. It took time. So I guess they decided, "Sure." So they shot the

proposition out into and through Washington, D.C.

[20-19] And we [they] had smart men taking over that [xxx Red Lake] reservation.

They were smart Indians to run their own self-government. And then these [other]

parties here, that's White Earth, Leech Lake and all over, they went along as a whole

on the Reorganization Act. [xxxftnt] I mean Red Lake set up before the Reorganization

[1934] set in. They give 'em their own reservation.

Photo on-line

F

Peter Graves, Red Lake Band of Chippewas Tribal Chief.Photograph Collection 1950

Location no. E97.1G p2 Negative no. 12258

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It's well, all I could remember was Mr. Graves, Pete Graves. [was one of the

leaders the leader at Red Lake.] [ftnt 1872/1870-1957, Middleholtz 110-111

<http://www.maquah.net/Historical/1902/1902-McLaughlinCouncils-INDEX.htmlhttp://www.maquah.net/Historical/1902/1902-

McLaughlinCouncils-INDEX.html>] I remember about 1918,[when] Peter Graves was in the Indian

Office at Onigum. [Middleholtz, 111 quote in footnote] And that Pete Graves left for

Red Lake. [ftnt the town of Red Lake] Somehow I helped him move his stuff to the boat.

I knew Pete in the Indian office there. I said, "What happened, Pete? Are you leaving

us?" I was going to school at the Onigum [Ponema?] agency. [xxxaddmap] There was

an agency there and I was going to school there. I said, "What happened, Pete?"

"Oh," he said, "I'm moving to Red Lake."

So I figured there was some set-up then. I was a pretty young fellow then. So

they he moved to Red Lake. And then from that time on I heard some Indians say,

"Pete Graves came along and helped these Indians. He directed them."

Xxx He had Indian in him. zzz I think Pete had some Indian in him. He talked

Indian. He had Indian in him. I think he was from the Red Lake area. I didn't know him

too well; he was older than I am, but I knew where he was from. He was from

someplace up there.

I hear Indians say, "He made a good reservation."

Xxx So now, Red Lake wanted to withdraw [from xxx] to run their own government,

because it was so hard for them to come into our council [xxxmeetings]. [And] It was so

hard for us to council up there. The transportation those days was hard. [20-18b] It

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was hard to get there. It took time. So I guess they decided, "Sure." So they shot the

proposition out into and through Washington, D.C.

[20-19] And we [they] had smart men taking over that [xxx Red Lake] reservation.

They were smart Indians to run their own self-government. And then these [other]

parties here, that's White Earth, Leech Lake and all over, they went along as a whole

on the Reorganization Act. [xxxftnt] I mean Red Lake set up before the Reorganization

[1934] set in. They give 'em their own reservation.

zzz

They had a reservation of their own, and they were more advanced, and they

had a good school. They had a sisters' school. I think they were getting along good.

We just set and waited to see what would happen. I know what drawed back the

other way. It was that fifty-year period [ftntPB46], that extension on the treaty payment,

then the self-government came afterward. The self-government body came by the

state law. They said we're going to get better education, that is, you were getting

educated more with the self-government.

But the younger class all said, "Council, council, council. That's all we have.

[20-20] If we have to wait for the council to do something," he said, "we're going to be

way behind. We're going to be still in the same boat if we don't work. If the council

don't work for us."

I never heard a claim against [the Red Lakers not splitting off.] And I never

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heard Red Lakers claim against this Mississippi group.

Xxx [20-18A] Well, As far back as the beginning, the Mississippi Indians [xxxaddftnt]

were going along good with their councils. [ftnt councils ch] And each chief worked

together on that council. And in that area where they live they had different requests;

they had different problems. So by that way they worked together.

zzz

I think they did well. They had a good reservation. It was solid. We go and visit them

at times. During powwows I hear them talk. They accepted us when we went to school

up there in our times. [I] went to the sisters’ school up there from 1914-1915 for two

winters. Then [I] went later to Onigum [Ponemah??] Indian School. We sometimes

went to the sister's school and all that. We didn't have any trouble up north. We didn't

have any trouble at Red Lake. And Red Lakers didn't have any trouble with us, that I

remember. So we always played as a friend with the Red Lakers.

I think they did pretty good to get their own mill. They got it just about the right

time too, about 1918. And they all had jobs. They were more advanced than we were

because they had good men as their leaders, and they followed their leaders. The

leaders, I mean, the education. And they had good councils. With those good councils,

the Congress could work. The Red Lake Indian Council, they called it. And in that

council they had very smart men. They understood them. Then that's the way they

split.

John Smith and Charlie Wakefield were the leaders for this area [at that time].

Of course they passed on now; they died long ago. They died long since. John S.

Smith, that's the younger one. Well, we had a lawyer too, and that was Ed Rogers. He

was well educated. Ed Rogers lived in Walker. He was an educated Indian, he was a

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lawyer. I think he's got a boy now that acts as a lawyer. Ed Rogers, at that time, was a

well-known lawyer. Ed Rogers, at that time, was a well-known attorney. He worked for

the county of that area, too. And in that area, the Onigum area, I think it was Cloud

who was their leader. [20-21] I think it was Cloud, Chief Cloud, or something like that.

And there were a couple, three, other men with him as a secretary. I know one of the

secretaries was in the Indian office.

[We didn't organize like Red Lake because] well, they felt that Red Lake had a

big lake. And they felt that White Earth and this area had iron ore rights. We still had

claims on the iron ore and other mineral rights. But the Red Lake had smart men

because they said, "I think this will be a good place for summer resorts and

vacationers. We have fish, we had hunting, hunting rights and everything. And by the

reservation they could exercise those hunting rights." This area, we had the mineral

rights.

[We have] Leech Lake, yea. That's including Mississippi and Leech Lake

Indians altogether.

The Indians and the people were beginning dropping off [xxx from going to

council]. They wouldn't agree together. They were a little afraid of one another. So

they just stayed calm.

I heard some Indians say one time, "We have lots here, there's a big area here."

The time Rogers was in [office] I heard that we had a lot of hunting grounds here before

the Forestry came in. I think it was 1920s or something back like that, they had a

session with the Forestry Division. The Forestry Division wanted to take over and

regraze this area and make a betterment of this forestry area. They wanted to regraze

it. They wanted to regraze the forestry. They said, "We'll reforestry that and we'll give

you jobs. A lot of the Indians will be working there."

[20-22] We do work there. They're cutting timber and all that.

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They said, "We have jobs for redeveloping the forestry to improve the timber,

plant trees, and regraze the forests. We have better conservation with the Forestry

Division. They conserve the timber, game, and wild life."

That sounded good. So that's why they held back. The Forestry wanted to take

over. They wanted to put in a Forestry Division. After they took the Forestry Division

into the area the Forestry got a hold of that land. Then afterward it became known that

the Forestry Division wanted to buy that land. About the 1930s the division of forestry

shoved a dollar and a quarter an acre on these Indian lands! I didn't like to sell my

interest, but I had a sixty dollar check [xxx/\] one place. All along the line the Forestry

took over. xxxqqqqq Education was coming in and applying more pressure. We felt

that we didn't have a voice. We felt that it was no use working against that. [We] felt

that if we agreed with that guy, he'd get too much power. They felt that he'll get a better

position and then forget us. He'll get a job. Maybe we don't know what he's doing.

Maybe he doesn't work with us. Maybe we didn't know what he was going to do.

It got so that they didn't trust one another, at that time, because when he went to

Washington he'd come back and nothing happened. Those local representatives would

go up there.[ftntPB46] They were Indians. They would go up there on the money that

was donated to them to go. So when they come back, well they'd say, "We are going to

get a little payment, probably because some of them go there." So that's what they tell

us. They come home, but there's no betterment. So it's a losing thing.

Then a reorganization come in to provide a self-governing body, in the Sate of

Minnesota, about 1934, somewhere there in the 30's. They use State laws to set that

up. Then we started a vote for governors, which we did before. But after

reorganization we realized that if we get a good man for our governor, if we get a good

man that represents this area, one that votes on our requests, then we'd be better off.

Then we started to pick up again, see? We started to get a little help then because the

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Indians understood that nobody would make a mis-fault.

[20-23] Then we began to wonder why [xxx/\]. So that's why they said, "Well, it's

so hard, so hard to put anything through. There's too many administrations that they

have to go through. These people up here have by-laws they have to go through too.

The laws are set up."

"Who's the lawmaker? We want to know.”

"That's the lawmaker." They have to be true Americans to be a lawmaker, to set

in with the law. We can't come in, or I can't go to any other country, and make laws. I

have to make laws here where I live. I can't go and make laws in any other state. But

they could hear me though. They could hear me talk about what we do up here. And

then if we are doing good, they will try that in that state. But if they're doing good, and I

seen that they are doing good, I'm going to come back here and tell our people,

"They're doing good in that state."

I'm talking about the people in another state. I'm going to tell them, "I think

they're doing good down there. They're making a go of it. Why don't we try that?"

See we have to follow where the best is. If they don't do anything for our area

we're lost. Who is going to do anything? We have too many channels to go through.

And it costs a lot of money to wait, to go through these channels. And we don't have

too much money here for that.

[20-24] Well it happened all the time. You know how these civil service people cost

money. We have to go through the Indian offices for what we want, and the employees

there get their salary for the business they do. That's the same in any Indian office.

Then the Indian office got their men up there. So we have to work, we have to have

them understand us, and us [we have to] understand them. So it's one way the others.

So, civil service costs money, that's what I mean. The civil service commission doesn't

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work for nothing.

They want to work for better education, I think. If we're not educated in the area,

I don't think we're recognized. Education's coming in and they know more about things,

but without experience. One thing we got to have is experience with education. But if

we go along with the educated without experience, with those who don't know what's

happening in the back, I think it's going to be rough.

This photo is on the PBWebsite

R.F. Lee, Assistant Director, National Park Services; Don Foster, Area Director, Bureau of Indian Affairs; Dale Doty, Assistant Secretary of the Interior; Ed Wilson, Chief of Chippewas; and John Flatt, Chief of Grand Portage Band at Grand Portage national historic site dedication.

Photographer: Abbie Rowe Photograph Collection 8/9/1951

Location no. SD4G p35 Negative no. 38776

M.J. Mattes, National Park Service; Don Foster, Area Director, Bureau of Indian Affairs; John Kauffman, Superintent, Consolidated Chippewa Agency, Cass Lake; Mike Flatt, hereditary Chief of Grand Portage Band; Dale Doty, Assistant Secretary of Interior; Ed

Wilson Chief of Minnesota Chippewa tribes; Ronald F. Lee, National Park Service, and Gus Moe, Bureau of Budget at Grand Portage national historic site dedication.

Photographer: Abbie Rowe Photograph Collection 8/9/1951

Location no. SD4G p36 Negative no. 38775

[Ed Wilson started getting active in affairs in this area] in 1919, 1918, 1920s or

somewhere in there, in the 1920s. I know it was when Knutson was on, that's the way

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we pick it up better. Harold (xxx?) Knutson was on as a representative at that time.

They put up a big powwow and Harold Knutson came in and visited us, and ate

amongst the Indians. They adopted Harold Knutson here at this townsite, expecting

that Harold will help us Indians. They adopted him when he came in. Then pretty soon

all these guys were getting adopted. But we're still the same. We're still in the same

boat. So it's just a big joke. After a while those old timers, those that are my age, felt

that it was just a play. We never saw any better times after they guys were adopted.

Photo on-line

Adoption of Congressman Knutson by the Chippewas.Photograph Collection, Postcard ca. 1920

Visual Resources DatabaseMinnesota Historical Society

Location no. E97.36 r67

Photo on-line

Adoption of Mrs. McConville into the tribe, White Earth Indian ReservationPhotograph Collection 7/14/1924

Subject: Aloysius, FatherSubject: McConville, Mrs.Subject: Morrison, Joseph

Subject: White Earth Indian ReservationLocation no. E97.1 r141

Negative no. 6786

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[20-25] All these old timers, some of them tell me, "If we didn't go ahead and try

to build our own homes, we wouldn't have any." And they had pretty good places on

account of their own work. So, we got so that we didn't want to go to the meetings

anymore. Nothing came back to show for it right now. I hear a lot of them today say,

"What's the use?"

So we know where we stand. We got civil service to pay and we got education

to fight. They're educated, and the civil service got rights, they got claims with the

schools, the administrating, the needy, the "poorcrat." The Indians got too many books

to go through to figure out what's going on.

END Red LakeBEGIN “Indian Reorganization”

qqqBegin

qqqEnd

END “Indian Reorganization”END “Indian Reorganization”

6. Factionalism; CAP; Jobs, Indian-White Relation

[20-33] I feel that the people want to work together. But when they work too much of

one side, relative-ly, with their relatives, then the others'll draw back. They think that

then they get too much power in the local council. So when they get too much power,

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when they speak about only one side and when the others can't or won't speak, then

the power begins to fall off. That's the way they feel about it in this local council. I

heard many people say, "The council's only for these that works there. It only helps

those that's running the council. It's only for these that's working for that area, those

that got a job in the local CAP program. The CAP people go to that council and the

CAP dictates. They tell them what to do for the program, what to do for this and all

that. That dictation covers up our individual problems in our own area. This is a

community. But the CAP is altogether different again. We're losing our voice by the

power of their education."

So we have only a few going to the local council meetings now. Some of the

Indians feel, "I don't think there's much use to file claims in the local council because

those that go to the council got a job there. They have a job through the local council

and they're worried that they might lose that job if you go say anything. I think they got

a job from the local council. Then the rest feels that if they file for something, I think

they feel, "they'll laugh at me." I feel that they think "He's got a job. That's all right,

that's all they're worried about." But when that job is terminated, they go back and

complain to the local council. Then they're willing to go along with the council. But they

don't think that way when they got a job. There's only termination in that, in some

parts. I see a lot of them that got terminated in there. But they need it, those jobs. It's

the only way for them to live. That's what I thought. I know that the power comes from

the group in the area that's getting the benefits. And those that didn't get any benefits

of the area, they aren't going to make a move to help the council. But the beneficiary of

the area think, "Sure, we'll go to get some more betterment." But when they don't get

the benefits and when they're sunk in too much in debt they say, "I don't think there'll be

any use working with the local council."

[20-34] They feel lost. See? They're sunk in debt. They have too much to pay

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for. The people of the area got too much to pay for, and they don't make enough to pay

for that. So they have to look someplace else for work. Then they just lose faith in their

council. They drop out and they say, "Let it go." And they don't want to hear nothing.

I see a lot of people and I talked to a lot of our neighbors in the county. The

white people say to me, "We're waiting for you guys to do something. If you don't, we

gotta try to help you. We're paying for everything, for betterment."

And they got a hardship because there's so many who aren't pushing enough to

help themselves surrounding them. That's the white man's hardship. This Cass Lake

area is a big county, that's a big county. Itasca has quite a county. Itasca County has

a lot of Indians there that need work too, as well as the white people. A lot of the white

people are needy too, see? So how can we work together? How can we work together

when the government, the federal, is holding one hand and the state is ready to work

on the other hand? Sure, we go by the Minnesota state law. But the Federal holds me

by the hand. So I'm fenced in. The State is helping, but who'd pay the State? It's the

taxpayers! What are we paying in this area? We pay taxes. How much do we pay?

Nothing. The local's got to understand that. Our neighbors, that's white people, got to

understand that. They have to work with us. if they're able to work with us. I think it'd

[be] better [for] the Indians to go to his neighbor as a group to work in the area he lives

in. I'm talking about the area you live in. You can work with your neighbor if you want

to. But you can't work with your neighbor if you're going to stay on the other side of the

fence of the reservation, if you're reserve. The white cannot go in there on the

reservation but still he can help you by getting big industries in here. [20-35] But I go

out there and they tell me "Sure you got a community action program up there. You

have money appropriations on the reservation. Why don't you work over there?"

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1. Whites

Pollution/White hunters coming in

There were turtles and all kinds of animals there. I've been through that. This is

a great country that was given to us, given to the people. Why don't we have that any

more? Why doesn't that nature have that in them now?

Now we have chemicals in the river, water pollution. The motors used to cover

the water with oil. That's what it was. There was not enough feed, and too many

floods. There were floods in our days, but there was fast water too. But we had to

consider people down below. We don't want their hay crops to get ruined, and we

wanted hay crops, so we had governors put on the river to balance it. We had

commissioners that would try to work together. So we got along very well.

Oh, this country was a great thing to live in! Everybody was happy all the time.

That was something, and I often think of that. Days go by when I want to see that.

Then fall comes. Hunting begins. Then that was fun. And the good hunter used to

make out very well. Then the Whites came in. They wanted to learn that stuff. Some

of them don't know the country. We had a chance to guide, to make a few dollars from

them. Sure, they had it to spend. And it's a great sport this guiding, as a working

guide. Pretty soon the Whites know all about it, they know these tricks. It didn't take

long 'cause they write it up on the books. They know what to do. Those days the

Whites didn't know, the angles.

[5-25] The settlers were very careful when they came in. They were very careful; there

were Indians up here. They didn't want to trespass on Indian land. They would get an

Indian guide to show them the way of lots of the sports, and they enjoyed that. They

got along very well. They got along very well. And we were happy to meet people that

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live a different life than we did. We talked to them; many of us talked to them. And

they felt for us too.

When the White people first came in this country, they felt for the Indians -- I

know, I guided on Six Mile Lake for one concern from Minneapolis. They felt for the

Indians, and I know very well they still do. They still do. We were glad to have them

visit us for that short time. And they always said they'll come back. Many of them

came back to us. Many, many came back to us and asked us, "Where's John?

Where's Joe? Where's Paul?" Oh, we had fun! We had friends!

So that's what makes for betterment. They get a cleaner idea of this area. They

spoke well about the Indians. And then the Sportsman Clubs came is, and they had a

lot to say about the area; they had a lot to say for us up here. They helped to protect

the wild life of this area. They held it for a long, long time. Then the Isaac Walton

League and all them set in, and then the state took over some parts. It's all right.

We're getting quite a few coming in. They like that life. I don't blame them; they enjoy

that life. We still have friends come up here from way done below. [5-26] And they

spend a lot of money to get up here, and they spend a lot of money just for a piece of

meat. They spend a lot of money for wild game and to enjoy that outing. Most of them

just want the outing; they want the atmosphere. Oh, that was fun! It's a sport life,

friendly--and you laugh. They get the Indians to show them the country. We just put

them on the stand and drive deer to them. When the deer comes through they get

shooking up, and the Indian looks at them. He sees how he's well-shooking. They get

buck fever. "He misses! He was looking at the deer, but he wasn't looking at the gun."

Ah, gee! But now quite a few of the hunters are trained to be [a] sharp shot. And

they're very often good when they come up here. That, that's the trouble. They're

sharp shots. You can't miss when you get them in those scopes. They have to do

something to get that deer. That’s what they’re here for. They want to say they shot

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them themselves. But through a scope? It's a great country, ya. In the brush country

up here. I don't believe that a scope or special sight amounts to anything.

I know an experienced hunter, well experienced, a sharp shot-shot. [5-27] He

says, be sure to look right down the barrel and you'll be all right. I tried that too. It

works. "Just look right down the barrel. You'll get 'em. Look right along the barrel, and

you got 'em." Sights and scopes are for a long distance. A lot of them surprised me

how they could shoot through those scopes.

After you boys leave after deer hunting then we sit around and talk. We tell them

about the group we were with. We tell them, "Boy that one guy really shoot. He really

knows his gun." And then they want to buy new guns.

That's a big thing to be a sharp shot. Well, those that come up here are trained.

They're trained to know how to handle a gun. They are very careful when they came

up. Those that came up for the first time, I think were very careful with their guns. That

is the main thing. They got the deer. Gee!

I know lots of friends that I don't think would be able to get in the woods again.

They're pretty old and I don't think I'll ever see them hunt again. But sometimes I may

see them--you don't know about that. Some of these other hunters who come up here

all look the same to me. Same with the Whites: the Indians look the same to them.

[5-28] Ya. It's a great sport. So you can see I lived a life. I tried everything. I tried

everything that was fun. It was a great sport. And I was glad that I knew enough to talk

a little English. I'm glad I was willing to talk with them anytime they asked me a

question. I'd answer them as much as I know how. That way they felt trusted. They

felt trusted when they can hear somebody talking.

A lot of our Indians didn't talk much; they didn't say much. They would like to

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talk, but they didn't know much English. They were friends, a lot of them, to the

hunters, but they didn't say much. But they thought the White man was all right, by his

action, by working with them.

The old camps and hunting trips were great things. But now we have everything

modern, everything. They have scopes [and] high powered guns. The game has a

poor chance.

It's a great thing. When hunting season is on you want to buy a license because

you know nobody bothers us when we have a license.

TR - HOW, HOW, HOW LATE WAS THAT?

PB - Oh, that was in the 20s, I mean that was in 1918. Way back in Kalamazoo they

had it earlier. But I'm talking about myself. They had that a-going some other places,

but especially my family was slow in advancing themselves. So we finally learned by

the background of the others our color. We were trying to get ahead too, you know. So

we had enough for a living anyhow. Families kept getting bigger, in my family, see? So

I left home, went out to do sawmill work. Sawmill work, I enjoyed that too, sawmill

work. I worked for the J. Neils Lumber Company. That's where I was talking about, the

J. Neils Lumber Company. They use us good there. And then we got the practice of

going to North Dakota. And that was good money in North Dakota during harvesting

time. They all beat it for North Dakota. They would drop their work and go wherever

there was more money, you know. They figure that they made good. Some of them

came back with a hundreds of dollars, you know. They would go and stay with the one

threshing outfit. Oh, I enjoyed that! There was no modern hotels, there was no modern

places. In my time we had to sleep in the barns. But still we were healthy. We would

get up in morning, and have plenty to eat. We would work for different ones. We would

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talk. Oh, how these boys enjoyed that. I know they did because I meet a lot of them

now. They enjoyed that! It was a life! And there's lot more to my life besides this. Lots

more that I enjoyed. I had a lot of friends all times. You could see now, Tim, that I'm

so busy with friends, that I don't know just where to go first.

Written in on the side: We were looking at other races but what we were mostly

interested in was in learning from the people right here in Minnesota.

oh-day-šii-no-wIn = that’s his family

2. Working (with Whites)/education

As I said before, I would have had a little education, but I had trouble with my

eyes, and defection with a hand. [20-A-4] So, I was a very slow learned. But what I

knew, what I learnt, I learnt just by my experience, through what I went through and

what I saw. I often wish I knew more, but I think I knew enough to get by with both the

Whites and Indians. I worked with the Whites in the woods as a lumberman. I worked

with them. And they always learned me, helped me, showed me, how to do what I was

supposed to do. I felt happy to know my job, and I like timberwork, sawmill work, other

stuff. When I went into timberwork, saw-lumber work, I knew--predner knew--what the

grade of lumber is, practically. I worked on the trimmer in the mill. I worked on the

timber cutting; I know how the timber's supposed to be cut, in my time. Anyhow, adding

that, my foreman said that everything was ok. By proving that, I was always given a

job. So that maybe my job was done well. So I got along very good. Well that's the

same with education. You see, you have to learn, you have to practice what you are

learnt to work on. And when you practice what you are learnt to work on then you'll

become better at it. If you’re in the professional class you’ll become interested and it

50: New White World 20

becomes natural to you that you could answer the request of your work at anytime.

And when the works gets rough, you have to use your own head and study out how

you’re going to do it. It isn't easy. There's working that you have to go through which

has rough spots. So if you try [to do the] the best, use your own judgment, you'll do

well at the times it gets rough. Then there's a time again where everything goes along

well, smooth, but there'll be breakdowns, like your machine, like your saws don't work

right. You'll have to make them work good; it's easier on your work then, and it does a

neater job. Your machine, any implement, if it works good, it works on your mind good

too and you do a better job. That's in all fields; you have to keep up your machine and

your work. Then you'll do a better job. You know how because you're experienced. It

takes time to become experienced, but when you practice it you become experienced

about it. [20-A-5A] You'll know it's better, it's getting better all the time. Then you

know where the drawback is; you'll've learned. Well, I'll do better, I'll improve, so that's

in life too. Any work that you do, that you'll send out, do it well. And when it gets rough

I never believed that I should throw it up. No, I don't believe you should say right away,

"Let it go;, I want to try another job." First, try hard to make this work. Make it work!

When your tools don't work very good, you know where your trouble is. If you've got a

dull ax, sharpen it. In my time, see I'm speaking about in my time, that's what we did.

Well, that's the same thing now. If something in the machinery, in the implements,

doesn't work, then fix it. Now we have new things, if you take care of them, and take

care of yourself, I think you're going to like working with them. If you take care of your

equipment it does a better job. And when a man is looking for that kind of a man, [one]

that knows how to take care of things, when a foreman is looking for that division, he

wants a man for his purpose, one that knows what he's doing. And it's very seldom

you'll find a good man that's interested in that line of work, but that's the man they want.

So that's what it's come to. You have to know by experience. You have to be read up.

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You have to have an education as well as we did. We didn't know what that tool was.

There were a lot of tools we didn't know how to handle. But we took interest, and after

awhile we knew how to handle can hooks, loading tools, loading chain, toploading

equipment. We had very dangerous work, and we had lots of it at the mills. And we

learnt; it was nothing to us. We know what to do, and it was easier on our minds, and

work was easy. Well that's the way it is with anything. That's the way this country is.

And in this country you have a right to pick out your own line of work, and that's one

good thing. And when you become a professional at, when you are used to that job,

experienced on it, I think you'll never get lost. You'll always have a job. "What line of

work do you do?" That's the first question the employment people will ask. Well that's

a good question, sure. [20-A-5b] If you can prove yourself, you got a job. By proving

yourself they'll ask, "Where did you work?" They have to know that. I know why. They

can't put you in a work that you don't know anything about. They're concerned for

accidents, that's what they're worried about. [20-A-6a] "Do you know something?"

That's what I was asked in the lumber camp. "Do you know something about that job?"

"Yes, I've worked on that job." It didn't take him long to find out if I knew

anything about the job, to find my old foreman, to find the mill where I worked. When

they found it the foreman'd say, "Ya, he's all right." I always got work. That's what that

questionnaire is for. Before you get on the job they want to get a right type of a guy,

one that's been on that job before. That's the same thing as they come. We're talking

about learning from experience. You can understand what I'm driving at. These

experienced guys taught the younger class. The younger class then listened and they

knew how. And they watched how the experienced class did it. That's the way we

learned, in with the leaders of this country. Leaders of our area understood them, the

experienced, the experienced men. And all along the line you have to learn from the

experienced. I don't care what kind of a position that you're driving at, if you're

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experienced, if you're experienced, if you've tried it, and if you see something that's for

the better, you try ii, afterwhile you get somewhere. That's the whole deal. I never

heard anybody say just because I was an Indian they don't want me, they don't want

Indians, or "we got white people workin'." I never heard that. When we went to that job

the frontier says, "Yes, it's yours, if you wanna work." So they learned it. That's the

way I lived. And I think I got along very good. We all got along, Indians and the whites

worked together. They worked together very well. In our area it was good. We worked

together in lumbercamps, in mills--we had sawmills--now they have farms. Of course,

there's a lot of things that we have to understand about farming too. We have to

understand how to use this crop, how to grow it, how we're going to get better with it,

how to make it ahead. To learn we asked the farmer, the neighbor, "How do you do it?

He tells us how he raises the crop, what he does. You do it be taking care of it. That's

a big word. And they had cattle. My folks used to have cattle. They learned us how to

use them cattle. [20-A-6b] They learned us what to do, how to get the cream out of the

milk we sold. We were getting somewhere. We enjoyed it by working together as good

neighbors. And we had something to trade, horses, cows, anything. It was good times

and a good life.

[20-A-7] So that's just the way it went all along the line. So from here on, as I say, you

have to have the education with experience. I think we have to go along with them, we

have to work together. If you can take one word out of experience and one word out of

your better education maybe it'll work good. With experience and with education I think

we can trust things to be better because it's for the better. That's the way it is all along

the line, in the line of life.

3. CAP; Working for Wages; Meetings; Leaders; Jobs

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Chippewa Indian costumes made by Grand Portage Indians under the Works Progress Administration.

Photograph Collection ca. 1938 Location no. E97.22 r2

Negative no. 6662-A

[20-A-10a] After the redevelopment came, [WPA], we went along on a self-government

body. Then after the self-governing body, here comes more redevelopment. Then

came the community action on top. So when the community action went on the top of

this self-governing body, the new housing program come.

[The Community Action Program came in] three years ago [taped 7 Nov 1969],

wasn't it? About three years ago we got together as a community. Then the C.A.P.

[Community Action Program] was in there C.-A.-P. So we were going along at the

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meetings and everybody wondered, "Why ain't we got voices anymore?"

"Well they're educated."

So I asked them, I said, "Why don't you come to the meetings?"

"It's no use."

"Why?"

"They're educated now. They're running the government body of the area."

The development, the Community Action Program [are running it].

"How come?"

"Well, they wanna work with us they say. But when we say anything, they don't

try it. But they're CAP, the ones talking. The Indians ain't talking. When the Indians try

to say something," they said, "All these resolutions that we put in, where are they?"

They ask for them resolutions. And then they set up a local business committee after

that. And then when they set up a business committee, well the business committee

was trying to help, but everybody quit going to the council meetings. Then I asked

them why they don't go. "Well," he says, "I think we're in deeper."

"What do you mean deeper?" You see we got housing. We should have some

industry near-by to make the younger class work here instead of leaving their families

such a long ways off to work in Minneapolis and the Mines. They have to pay for this

transportation. [20-A-10b] By the time he buys a new car and goes that distance to

work and then comes back, maybe his car wears out. And then when it breaks down it

costs him that much more to get to work and back. It's pretty hard to work that way.

That's the way they feel, you see. What they want, I think, is to work somewhere close

by. [20-A-11] There was work here, but they weren't paying enough for the family--

with the prices of food, the gas, the prices of everything going up. [Note: economy

undergoing inflation at this time.] So in this area everything was going up. It caught up

to them. It's just that they didn't have the finance to keep a-going where the others are

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striking for higher wages and everything. Because we couldn't strike, we couldn't make

a move. We had to take what they give us, that's what I mean. I mean we had no

voice. We're not unionized. We're organized all right, maybe, but we don't work

together. If we worked as a group, maybe we'll be recognized. All clubs, all societies,

all units, when they work together, they have a voice. They have men to represent

them. We have none to represent us. The Indian has none to represent us. There just

aren't enough of us to go for representation. Everybody is just kinda hanging back,

waiting to see what's going to happen. "What is next?" I think they feel, the people of

this area, really feel lost, and they don't know where to go. So I was kind of interested.

Then I became old, aged too [i.e., on old age pension] and I worked with them,

the RBC. I became old aged. I felt that I should keep quiet and let them do it. I'm

retired, but they're still asking me, "Don't let us down. Don't let us down. Work with

us." But I don't know where to work with. I don't know who's going to work for me: the

community? The board of governing body? Or which representatives? I don't even

know my representatives anymore. But these Business Committees that we have tried

hard to work with the people. They help discuss. I think I trust, the way I feel now, I

have trust in these Indian Business Committeemen that we had now. I think they're

very good men. I think they're doing well. I was told that they're not doing right, but I

think they're doing right. They invite me to their meetings and I heard them. They talk

for the area they work for.

[20-A-12] Well that's very well because I didn't have a voice there. That was a

Business Committee meeting. They invited me to listen in. There's nothing wrong;

there's nothing wrong that I could see. When they meet the officials up there, they

thresh it out pretty good, and they talk it over. So this talk is just the smear that they

get out in the field. But you get that anywhere in anything. Somebody's always going

to say you don't do right. What they're trying to do is to help the people of the area

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which they represent. It's on a majority vote. And I trust them. I think there's quite a

few who feel the same as I do. And I think these Business Committeemen are working

right, are working for the betterment, because it looks good. Now I look at the other

side: I think we're the ones who lack after all in what they are trying to do. They have

proved themselves. It took quite a while to write up the whole statement for the last

two, three years. [see copy of statement] And we have statements out. The Business

Committee has statements which tell what they have tried to do to prove themselves. I

think they did well by that statement. And it reads again, from now on, the statements

will be there. Well, that's a good point, you see. That way they won't be lost.

I think, I feel, the local community leaders get in a group by themselves. That's

what I see now. I told them at the meeting: "You cannot do anything without talking it

over with one another. We got a board here on the table. This chairman has a

secretary. If you don't talk, if you don't bring up your problems, bring up something to

work with; I don't think he has the power to go ahead." So when we don't say anything

in the meetings or vote on things in the meetings, to vote on for the best for what we

discuss, what we bring in, I don't think the Business Committee can do anything

because they don't know what we want. [20-A-13a] They're ready to work if we bring

up our problems. So we have nothing to complain about, no excuse I mean to say,

because we have a set-up to help us. They want to hear our points and problems, the

local. They want to hear our feels [feelings], where the problem is. If we don't work on

our problem as an individual, if we don't bring in things for the best, for the young

children, it's going to be pretty hard to make any improvements. It's going to be a

downfall. Nobody's going to do anything. They can't. Because if the chairman goes

ahead on his own, maybe there isn't enough of them to back him. So, this party, the

chairman, and the Council, they're looking for advice and cooperation. And when you

don't go to these council meetings it's going to make a hardship in that area. I know

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that. That's what the drawback is now. We have nobody to blame but yourself.

4. JOBS

The jobs are too far from home. The Indians can't work together. Maybe one

guy'll have a job here. These guys that's working on this CAP program they want to

work on a small scale on income. They get along. But those with a big family can't do

that. That's where the drawback is. He makes some money with a small family. With

a big family, he can't make enough money, he has to go out and work somewhere else.

So there's not enough there to discuss. Our chairman has the same interest. He's

thinking about all these boys that left this area, all my Indians that left this area to get a

job, to seek work for higher pay, to take care of the family. And these with a small

family are just barely getting by. I don't think we'll get anywhere with this. In this

community, we have housing, and they have to be paid for. So how are they going to

pay for them when they have to go back and forth wearing out their money? And then

they only got certain weeks to work. If they had a program in this city, in the nearby

village, if they provided enough to take care of their families, and had enough to be able

to have protection, with enforcement of our laws, rules, rulings, I think it'd make it

better. [20-A-13b] But we haven't enough money to circulate for betterment.

[20-A-14] It's a drain. There's nothing here. We have only low income, and it's very

low. People here, they just can't make it. There are times that there's timber work

here. But they call for only a certain amount of timber. Now they're using other

methods, plastic and all that stuff. We have no chance on the reservation. That's

what's slowing down our area. The timber problem is gone. The problem is that the

timber demand is gone. The timber lumber, that's gone too. They have to have

different building material, material that is fireproof, airproof, storm proof. They need

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chemical material that'll keep. That slows my area down. These people, these boys,

have no production. They have no production because there's nothing to produce.

There's no value in the production that we have. There's no value in it. So with that

chemical in those buildings, the best, that outvalues our production. The valuation is

there in the other products. The big contracts, the big contractors, sell better material

because they fix better materials. They have chemical products and all that stuff,

plastic board, and all that stuff. But they have the factories far away from here. On this

reservation we have nothing. That's what I mean. When they go there to work they

leave their poor families here. Everybody wants to be with their family. At times they

want to be with their family, to know that they have a family, and to love their family.

That's why they get married. And no industry, nothing nearby. When the surrounding

people can't hardly make it, how are the Indians going to make it? We have mines,

sure, but they close down. We have mines, sure, but these mines have people with low

income in their area too. They have lots of people in the mines. Some of those mines

have shut down, yes. All right, they draw their rocking chair money; they draw

unemployment. Now, we're right in the middle, this reservation, Itasca county. In

Itasca county we have a reservation, we call it.

The Cass Lake area has a big reservation too. Cass Lake has a big county,

Cass County. What production do they have there? Not much, but they have a lot of

taxpayers. That country is sandy. They call it "no production land."

[20-A-15] It only has forestry and reforestation. They recommend reforestation. But

the only seasons which are productive are the wild rice seasons. Well, who's making

the money out of the resorts? There's no more money in the resorts. There used to be

good money in the resorts. The taxpayer on these resorts are suffering just as bad as

the Indians. They're suffering without work. They're spending all the money they

make. There's no industry there, there's nothing nearby, there isn't enough there.

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Where we have material maybe we could product stuff too. But we need an outlet first.

But we don't have any outlet. They want to accept other areas, other states' stuff.

They accept all the material from the other states and then forget this area. We have

iron, we have stone, we may have chemical here too to work with. But we have to have

better education. And that education could find a betterment, it could find out how to

develop with the industry, with the people, and then maybe we would have more work.

As I hear, when you go south to Minneapolis or anywhere, anyone can go to work

because they have big industries. All my Indians have a job there, but they still are

Indians. What I mean is that the Ojibway Indians from this reservation have to go down

and work, but they still live up here as a reservation. We have no industry. When they

come up here and try to live in this area in which they build their homes, they stay a few

days with their families, and then they say "No, I can't make it here. I gotta go back."

Some of them lock their places because they can't pay for them. They go down there

or anywhere there's work. Sure they work, but here's them nice homes, here, which

they leave. The cost drives them out because it's too much to pay. There are no

industries where they should be working. Their work is too far from home, and it's too

hard to drive back and forth. That drives them out. I think a lot of them have jobs, and

a lot of them would like to live in these houses, but they just can't make the request on

their rents and pay everything else on their living, because they don't make enough

around here.

[20-A-16] That's what I was told. They tell me that. I said, "Why do you leave your

place? Why do you go?"

They said, “I just can’t meet the rent because I got a family.”

Then I look at myself. "What does it cost me to live?" Then I look at the people

that have big families that have to live. They have cars and everything. Without a car

you're just lost if you have to work. So that's the whole deal. That's what I think. I think

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if we don't do anything about this, it's going to get worse.

7. Welfare/Treaties/Work

[11-19] Later on the Indians hired [elected] me again.1 "You're not in that council," they

said. "You were always for the Indians. You were always for the Indians, the

full-bloods. You are a member of the Mississippi Band; that's our equal. But we have

too many that were settled in White Earth coming in."

"Well, they're working," I said. "They get together. They work. They use the

law. We don't work; we don't have to work, because we're believing the administrator's

promise that within a fifty-year period they were going to settle with us. But the General

Council was asked for a twenty-year extension on that settlement--which they agreed

to. That fifty-year treaty was overthrown. Who overthrew that? Did Uncle Sam throw

that out? Whose fault is that? There's a big claim there, too. They're throwing that

around in the Government. Who did that? Did they do it within the law, or without the

law? Did they make their treaties in law? Did they make their resolutions in law?

That's both ways of looking for it. You have to be a lawyer to figure that one out."

That's something buried in our affairs. That's causing a hardship right there.

Now the Indians' State welfare is doing more. They're helping us right now because it

takes too long to approve anything in the law in the House in Washington.

[11-20] It takes at least six months just to get the ball rolling. The welfare stepped in

here during the meantime, and now the taxpayers are feeding us. The welfare is feeing

us. The welfare is taking care of the Indians very well. The Minnesota Department of

1 Cf., “North Dakota’

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State Welfare is helping the Indians very well. They help them along by feeding them

and helping them to provide through the winter. They even paid for their hospital bills

at times.

Why do they have to do that? Because the Government holds us back, it holds

up our land claims and money. They don't leave it go. Who's going to get that money?

On our old claims, to our old Indians, the Administration said, "When the time comes

we'll give you that money."

Huh!

"Are they going to give it to somebody else?"

"We don't give it to somebody else. We give it to you. We give it indirectly to

you, the individual, as an Indian. See, you get northern Minnesota welfare."

Then we already got it through there? Did they give our money to the Minnesota

welfare?

But now what does the taxpayer want? What does the Minnesota welfare want?

They aren't going to give that money away for nothing. What are they going to get out

of it? What do we have to put up for the welfare? What security? They have to have a

little security for the money they're giving out. That's where that lien law comes in. I

figure that if they build good houses here and if we don't make a showing to keep them

up, if they don't approve the improvements we're making, if we don't work with the law

enforcement to enforce our laws, if we don't force our councilmen to make any

showing, then gradually the Minnesota welfare is going to come in and take over. If we

fail they'll take over--I think.

[11-21] On the other hand the whites can do anything by Congress. Nowadays, the

Representatives can do anything they want for the white people and the Indians. You

know that. You see that they do anything they can do. You bet. They can take over

and that's what will happen if we don't work hard to push our claims through--think.

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That's my view of it. Naturally, it will come to that. We have to have money to own

anything. If we don't make money we're going to squack to the Welfare again: "Give us

some more money, we're hungry. We have no work...."

You see, these pellet plants [taconite plants] aren't going to provide work all the

time. They're going to be automatic within a few years, and all this employment's going

to drop. The railroad now has its automatic machinery and doesn't hire as many men

as they used to. Labor!, opportunity for Jobs! is going to drop later on and the

Minnesota welfare guys will come in. There's money there. They have all kinds of

money. Each and every one in this state pays taxes--income tax, income tax, income

tax. Geeze, the Minnesota Welfare people are the richest people there is. They give

out a lot of money and that money has to make a showing. They have to indicate what

they're spending that money for. They're working for the next generation, so they can

have some security. The Indians of this generation have no security. They can't get

any money out of the bank when they have no security. You have to have security to

get money. You first have to put in something [you] make before you can get

something out. I figure later on in years, boy you watch, the Indians will have enough

security to get somewhere. I may not see that, but the times will change.

[11-22] Getting the Ball Club Community Hall, I think, was one of the best things to

happen around here in a long while. It's helping to put better education in this

community, it's helping to improve leaders, and it's helping leaders to make a good

showing in the area. The white people'll be glad that we made something of it locally.

In the past, they helped us, they fed us and everything. They fed us; the taxpayer fed

us. Yes, they fed us in this community. Boy, those Indians are doing well now.

They're taking care of this own affairs now! Sure, the whites will go along with helping

us if they see we're responsible. Pretty soon we'll get off of their money and we'll pay

our way as we go. We have to. They can't sit there in the reservation saying, "We

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don't have to work. We're on Indian land. There's no enforcement. We don't have to

work. We're on Indian land. We don't have to pay a damn thing. When winter comes

welfare is gonna feed us." That's the way if looks like to me now. Certainly, you can't

make anybody work if they don't want to work. That's a hard situation. I thought of that

and that's why I layed off from the Council. I don't want to get any blame of nothing. I

don't want to get any blame from my people. We have problems because there isn't

enough money in circulation here. To get enough money there has to be factories.

There has to be production here. There has to be general production enough for each

and for all. There has to be big plants. There has to be an airbase [airport].

[11-23] We have to work with foreign countries, working by planes and everything.

You have to have building shops, big shops to work in. We have to have a permanent

employer, year-round. We aren't going to make it with this seasonal work. We have

too long a winter to make it on seasonal work. If there's going to be year-round jobs,

then we can have something. We could expect something. Ya. Why, isn't that point

sound?

[It won't be easy,] no. But gradually, later on, we might feel it, if the government

helps us out. Well, if we don't see any improvements, it won't be the government's

fault, it won't be the fault of the governing body of the House and it won't be the

welfare's fault. If we don't improve our situation it will be the fault of the people of this

area, because they can't make a showing. If we can't or don't work it is going to

weaken us. When you're weakened they have to help you; they have to feed you then.

But they won't help you for nothing. You have to pay for it with some type of security.

They have to see something in sight before they'll help you. They'll figure, "Well, he got

a big claim, we'll get some more money out of him. When he gets his claim we'll handle

it." The Indian will never get anything out of it. "You got a big claim. We'll get some

more of that big claim,” they'll figure. They'll take a certain percent. I feel as though

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when the administration went through here they deduced, "We'll administrate your

affairs. We'll take a percentage for administering your affairs and so much of a

percentage will go into the Tribe."

[11-24] "We'll sell the land, we'll rent the land. If they can't pay for this prime land

somebody else'll buy it." There is so much interest in that money. All kinds of things

are in our claim: iron ore, timber, minerals, and everything. So much of that money

from the sale of these will go into the Tribe and so much will go to those administrating.

See? We watch that. I think the employees get quite a bit, quite an amount of money,

and somebody has to pay them, too.

One reason a lot of people don't like to bother the Indian Bureau is because if

they do there'll be a lot of them without a job. When the fifty-year period for land claims

settlement was up the Indian Bureau said we weren't ready. They were going to close

the Indian hospital because [the Indians] weren't ready to take it over. I didn't favor

closing the Indian hospital at that time because I didn't think we were ready to take it

over ourselves. If you give them that claims money they wouldn't know what to do with

it. Like this guy over here. I asked him, “What do you think? Do you think the Indians

should get that money now? Do you think they would keep cattle and buy machinery

for farming?"

"I don't know," he says. "I don't think they should give them the money. Some

of them will make good use of it and some won't. I think they'll be broke within a few

days, because they drink. And because they're on tribal land they ain't got enough land

to train. This ain't productive land. This sand soil is not enough for production.

[11-25] All that grows is jackpine and quackgrass. See? That's the way it is, at least

that's the way I'd feel about it. That's my view of it."

We have to make a showing with what we have now. The younger generation

has to work with the Indian Bureau and then they'll get whatever they need. If they

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want an allotment of so much money a month, if they want to borrow money, all right,

but they have to make a showing that they got a job to pay for it. If they don't want to

work for it and pay for it, why they'll be stuck with what they have right now.

Title MinersDescription Miners; railroad track; horse pulling equipment; equipmentDate of Creation 1905?

General SubjectLaborBusiness and industrySocial issuesAnimals

Specific SubjectMinersMining equipmentHorsesRailroad tracks

Local Subject Miners; railroad track; horse pulling equipmentState MinnesotaCountry United StatesContributing Institution Northeast Minnesota Historical CenterRights Management contact NEMHC for permission to use imageLocal Identifier 484.2

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MDL Identifier umn01133.tif

TitleMining laborers beside train DescriptionCrowd socializing beside Winston-Dear Co. train, engine #113 Date of Creation1900 - 1914 General SubjectBusiness and industrySpecific SubjectMinersClothing & dressShovelsIron miningMine railroad carsRailroad locomotivesLocal SubjectIron mining; Hibbing, MN; Railroad cars; Miners; Winston-Dear Company; Minnesota City/TownshipHibbingMinnesota CountySt. LouisStateMinnesotaCountryUnited StatesParent Collection1990.1948; Stanley Olson Photographic Collection Contributing InstitutionIron Range Research Center, Chisholm, Minnesota Rights ManagementUse of this image is governed by U.S. and international copyright law. Please contact the Iron Range Research Center, Chisholm, MN for more information in regard to this image, online at http://www.ironrangeresearchcenter.org/photo/index.htm Local Identifier00001155-rf

A long-range program is going to call for some improvement. That's part of your

long-range program. They got you on that. Someday the mines are going to give out.

The underground mines are all right, but the open pit mines won't use much labor later

on. They used to use hundreds and hundreds of men in my time when I worked in the

mine. I worked in the mine one winter. In that crew, on track, just the track gang, I bet

there were about fifty or sixty of us right in one bunch. I worked over there in the

50: New White World 37

twenties, 1921 (xxx?). I worked for the Oliver Mining Company, over by

Coleraine-Bovey.

[11-26] I went into tracking [making trackbeds]. By god, you worked there, them days.

You have to work with a bar in your hand, and with a pick and a shovel. That was

working. They were really operating in there. We leveled for the tracks. They had a

big steam shovel, a big steam shovel, to help us out.

Miners and car in the pit, Tower-Soudan Mine.Photograph Collection 1890

Location no. HD3.5 p4 Negative no. 6011

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Large group of miners at Tower-Soudan Mine.Photograph Collection 1890

Location no. HD3.5 p5 Negative no. 6012

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Miners in the pit of the Tower-Soudan mine.Photograph Collection 1890

Location no. HD3.5 p11 Negative no. 6010

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Miners playing cards in their camp, Coleraine.Photograph Collection 1906 Location no. HD3.51 p42

Negative no. 29994

But later on in years everything's going to be automatic. The engine will take

over.

Geeze, I was surprised about a year and a half or two years ago when I went

down there. I took a ride down there and all them guys were out of work and all them

mines were closed--pred'near all of them were closed, just a few mines were open.

And I asked the party I was riding with--he was a miner--I said, "How come these mines

are closing when there's a big demand for iron ore?"

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"No," he said, "Iron ore ain't worth nothing. Labor's too high. Some of these

companies are going to foreign countries where the labor's cheap. And they're getting

Texas-Mexico and Mexico labor that's cheaper. Foreign labor's cheaper. The

companies can't make it here, the labor's too high. The labor's too high here because

the union holds it up too high. The companies can't pay that union now."

[11-27] That sounds reasonable to me. Their iron ore wasn't worth nothing. I

think there'll be so much iron order that the price will go down. I heard they were

getting too much, or enough, iron ore from across the pond [ocean]. They can get all

they want from across the pond, and they stockpile lots, too. But I see they sold a lot of

cars. They must use a lot of iron in there. [laughs] Nobody will drive an older model

now; they'll put it off of the road. They want you to get a brand new car, and they cost

thousands and thousands of dollars. Geeze, we don't have that kind of money to drive

a new car in this [part of the] country. Nobody has. If they have, why what are they

doing way up here in the north in the winter? They must go south to Florida to work

during the winter. They aren't lazy.

Oh, you see all kinds of things. Ya, that's my way of life. That's how I got on the

Council. From that time on, why I was on my own. I never bothered them after I got off

the Council. But I will help if I see they're trying to do anything good. For example, that

community hall is good for the kids, the younger generation. And we have a school, a

good living, and a chance for the kids to learn right to home. We didn't have that

chance when I was home. Now they have a good chance. They should have good ball

players, good football players, good boxers, good wrestlers.

[11-28] They'll have a good education. They probably go away to big cities and work,

like they do now. There is work [in the big cities], but they won't stay. That's the

trouble. They're hired in other places. They try hard to help people through relocation;

they put them on a relocation. Relocation paid their way to go out there, and got them

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a job, and told them to learn a job. They stayed there for a year, year and a half or two,

and they were right back here. That was rough for the government. That was rough

for the workers. That was rough for the man that was expecting them to do better.

They went right back here. They got back to the wigwam. It was like in the olden days

when we used to say, "Waah, this boy is going through high school. Well!! He's going

through high school? Aah! He'll go out to the world and take care of himself amongst

the white people."

"No, he'll come back and stay right with his tribe. He'll be right in the wigwam

again. He'll come back and look for his wigwam again." That's the way they do it. Lots

of them who were well educated came right back. They like this Indian way of life.

What's the use of giving them an education? It costs a lot of money for an education.

Ya, costs a lot of money to educate people now. If they give them an education, the

way I feel, they should give them a job. I don't see why they want to come back here.

There's no industry here. There's no packing plant, there's no big ship-building yards.

[11-29] There's no industry to work in like they have in the South. They have better

locations and better weather down south. The winters here are too long. That's what

knocks us, up here. Why, geeze, when it gets forty below, what are you going to do?

Storms are bad in the winter and they just tie up the plant.

So, for my part, I think I went through the world. I went through life, and as I

went through I just lost faith in getting an education. I think I lost my chance for an

education. At least I think I lost my chance for a better education. I tried everything

and all I found was a lot of hard work. But I made an effort to keep me in good shape.

Work doesn't hurt anybody. Ya. Work doesn't hurt anybody. It does you good. It's

true. It's good for you to work. Ya, if you just sit around, sit around, you'll lose faith in

the whole works. You'll get to the point where you don't care. Then the others will see

you and they'll want to do the same because it looks like an easy life. A lot of them

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won't work anymore. But, of course, they don't expect the old ages to go out and work

now. The younger class should be utilizing that body, helping to make a betterment in

the area where they live in. You know, when you work it makes you feel good and

when I see a hard-working man, gee, it makes me feel good.

[11-30] I like to talk to the working men, and when a man isn't doing anything or

doesn't like to work, I just don't dare to say anything because it might make him sweat.

[laughs] Ya, work is a great thing. I like work. I like work. I had a chance to get on this

work [get a job] down here when this project came on. [Nelson amendment?] The way

I feel, for my part of it, I think when you got enough you should let somebody else work.

Married people with families should be working there if they want to work. I'm not going

to get in there and work because I'm all alone and single. It doesn't take so much to

keep me going. But married people with families have to work. With big families they

have to work every minute--hauling logs out of the woods, working there trying to make

a living. Why don't they give them a job on those projects? I wouldn't be in their way.

A lot of times when I was in the woods I heard, "Why don't they hire the married men?

They need jobs like we have."

The boss says, "Well, they've had their chance. They won't work. Some won't

not all, but some won't work. Just about the time I need a certain man he'd go. He

quits."

No, I think I'm enjoying life now. I won't bother them; I leave them alone. But if

they wanted help, I'd give them help. I can't do much but every little help they get

makes things easier.

That's my line of life.

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