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WHAT IT TAKES to be a Successful School Principal - PRIMARY or SECONDARY

Andrew J Belotti

CONTENTS

Mark Sawle Headmaster Aquinas College

Paul Billing Principal Thornlie Senior High School

Mike Morgan Principal Shenton College

Phillip White Principal Melville Senior High School

Graham Dart Principal Beaconsfield Primary School

Andrew Syme Headmaster Scotch College

Stefan Silcox Principal Ballajura Community College

Terry Boland Consultant Seek Education Solutions

Jennifer Broz Principal Curtin Primary School

Fiona Kelly Principal North Fremantle Primary School

Digby Mercer Principal Como Secondary College

Maureen Lorimer Principal Applecross Senior High School

The following questions were asked of each Principal:

1. What is so good about being a School Principal?

2. Can you give us a little background about how you became involved in Education and your road to becoming a Successful School Principal?

3. What are the top three things that someone should know / possess in order to be a Successful School Principal?

4. What is the best way to 'get started' on the road to becoming a Successful School Principal?

5. How long does it take to become proficient at Being a Successful School Principal?

6. Will your methods or advice work in any area and for anyone?

7. How much experience does a person need to be a Successful School Principal?

8. Can you provide some real-life examples of other people who have followed your advice in the field of Education?

9. If you had one secret to give about being a Successful School Principal what would it be?

10. What are some of the common problems that people experience in their role as a Successful School Principal?

11. What have been your highlights / your rewards in being a Successful School Principal?

12. What sort of things can someone do to stay a Successful School Principal?

13. How can current Principals and/or Educators aspiring to become Successful School Principals, contact you?

Andrew is very appreciative of the Principals, Headmasters and the Educational Consultant who gave of their time to share their experiences on "What it takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary".

The Interviewer - Education involvement:

After doing his 13 week teaching practicum at Wyndham District High School in 1977, the interviewer Andrew Belotti, was appointed in 1978 to the teaching staff of Boulder Primary School, in the Goldfields of Western Australia, where he served two years in the classroom teaching Year Seven, followed by two years as a Physical Education Specialist.

He transferred in 1982 to the Perth Metropolitan area to Lockridge Primary School teaching Year Seven for four years before travelling overseas at the beginning of 1986 on teachers' exchange to teach in Vancouver, British Columbia, teaching Year Seven at Champlain Heights Community School. He enjoyed a short stint in Sacramento, California before heading back in 1987 to Western Australia to teach Year Seven at Manning Primary School.

1988 through to 1990 he worked as teacher and deputy headmaster (1990) of the preparatory school at Wesley College before moving onto St Marys Anglican Girls' School from 1991 to July 1994. Gwynne Park in Armadale enjoyed his company for the remainder of 1994.

From the beginning of 1995 Andrew began his Quality and Esteemed Based Education, Mental Skills Training and Self-Image Remodelling business. In late July 1995 he was struck down by Guillain-Barre Syndrome (andrewbelotti.com for details). Returning home in January 1996 he worked from home in a limited capacity. In that time he wrote the best seller, "Let Your Spirit Run Free".

In 1999 he returned to the school setting at Ardross Primary School as Physical Education Specialist and Science teacher across all primary year levels. 2000 saw him as Founding Principal of an Independent School of students upper primary to upper secondary. 2001 Andrew rejoined the Department of Education at Yule Brook College working as teacher and Head of Team.

Andrew has worked under 18 Principals.

MARK SAWLE HEADMASTER AQUINAS COLLEGE

Good afternoon everyone. This is Andrew Belotti with the first in the series, "What It Takes To Be A Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary". It's an overcast Tuesday afternoon, the 22nd of June, 2010 and I'm sitting with Mr. Mark Sawle, Headmaster of Aquinas College, a school of approximately 1,200 students and 220 staff. Aquinas College is a Catholic Boy's school located in Manning, a suburb of the city of Perth, Australia. Mr. Sawle has kindly allowed me to interview him with regards to, "What It Takes To Be A Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary."

Mr. Sawle, what is so good about being a School Principal, a school Headmaster?

Mark: Thanks Andrew. I think what is good about being a school principal is the fact of being able to see growth in young boys and staff over a period of time. As a school principal we can control things like a strategic plan. To see some of those elements of that strategic plan come to fruition, there isn't anything more than that internal drive that sees a plan come to its true outcome. It's wonderful to see that in students as well as staff. I think as a school principal you have such an important job to play in the development of young men or students in a co-ed case environment. I think that's such an important part to play in society and if you don't feel the passion of being a school principal, I don't think you should be there. And that drive that makes, and that internal intrinsic, as I always say, education is more about the heart than the head and that's very important in dealing with the way I see myself enjoying being a school principal.

Can you give us a little background about how you became involved in education and your road to becoming a successful School Principal?

Mark: I think I was, right from the time when I went to school, always surrounded by important role models or mentors. My father was a school teacher and he had a large influence on myself following education. Secondly, I think the mentors that I had at school, including the Christian Brothers, provided me with good, strong, quality men who I idolized and along with my father, provided me with a clear guideline into education. Once I'd received my degree in education and began my schooling or my teaching at Balga Senior High School, I was impressed right across the depth of education.

My father was involved in the D-schools all his life and we traveled around the countryside, monitoring and enjoying his successes as a classroom teacher, deputy principal and then principal, not only in Perth but in country schools. I think those role models, along with my Auntie, who's also a principal, provided me with a good breeding ground and aspirations to do similar ways.

So from humble beginnings of a phys-ed teacher at Balga Senior High School, I wandered my way through teaching, always looking at ways in which I could improve. I always aspired to be in leadership and I did that through obtaining a Head of Math at Trinity College in Perth and the traveling to the EasternSstates at Knox Grammar School where I was also involved in leadership and then coming back to Aquinas.

One thing about my pathway is that I really went from teacher to Headmaster in the same school. It's an unusual pathway to take but over a course of 14 years, to go from a teacher right up to the Headmaster and go up to each level was an important step that I found gave me a good experience in the school but it also gave me a chance to re-energize myself with each leadership promotion that I received at Aquinas.

What are the top three things that someone should know, should possess, in order to be a successful School Principal?

Mark: I've thought about this a little bit and I think the three things that I came up with was first, integrity. It's all about values. I think that young staff and boys look at the values that you have in your own life and the way that you go about treating each other. I think that idea of integrity is something that I really claim as a foundation. I think the second one is support. I think that is in your own personal life. You've got to have stability, a stable support network around you that include your home life whether that is with your partner, your family. It has to be stable as well as having stability, intrinsic stability.

But then you've got to be consistent about what you're saying, what you're believing in the way in which you go back to your principalship. The third thing I think what people possess is I think they have to have some sense of where they want to take the school. So there is that element of vision but it has to be a vision which is shared, articulated, lived and breathed.

So therefore decisions can be made easily about where the school is going and not being inconsistent or not going on a whim of an idea.

What is the best way to get started on the road to becoming a successful School Principal?

Mark: My road to being a successful school principal or getting started is to be a good teacher. You must be able to be ... I guess strong education is a must and understand education. By that I mean, I see the importance of study, of reading, of looking outside your system, looking at other systems, other countries, world's best practice ... and I think that is really important to actually appreciate and discuss those things I think is vital. I think paper is one thing. On the other side, I think getting started is to concentrate on your craft on that one day at that time. You do not want to get ahead of yourself so all you do is to start the journey, cycle each kilometre, look at the view and make sure that you can understand where you are at.

Not looking at the top of the mountain and imagine what that is like and to look at each day as it comes and to be a good practicing teacher who has a strong passion and drive for discussing and understanding things that go on. Part of the other aspect is to always put your hand up for any volunteer jobs, acting positions, anything that you feel that you can contribute towards any environment.

Committees are great ways. Being involved in the community whether it is any aspect that is going to assist you in goading relationship with your school, your parent body or your students. There is anything better to volunteer to be on a camp tour along with a very strong mentor teacher that will assist you on your road to success.

How long does it take to become proficient at being a successful School Principal?

Mark: This is a good question. I have only been a principal for three years. If you would have asked me this question when I started being a principal, I would probably have said two to three years. Today as I stand, I would say five, a minimum of five. I think that gives you a chance to set up a strategic plan, to have an influence, to see a cycle within the school. I think that is very important. That makes you proficient at being successful. I think to even say that you are proficient and successful after two or three years, I don't think that can actually be said. I think you need to go through a cycle of probably five or six years. I think that would be a length of time which would be able to ensure that statement could be said.

Would your methods or advice work in any area and for anyone?

Mark: First of all, in any area, I think leadership is very much about booting relationships, working collaboratively. All those ideas about leadership I think could apply in any area for anyone. I probably disagree. I think for anyone, still think there must be some characteristics and values that I aspire to that other people don't or can't see or can't understand. People can get the qualifications but some people still can't understand the education side of things and I think that is the difference between the two.

How much experience does a person need to be a successful School Principal?

Mark: Andrew, that is another good question. First of all, the question being 'experience' in successful school principal. Recently, I was speaking to a number of principals who are in their early thirties who would have only have somewhere between 10 and 12 years of experience in education. Is that enough experience to be a successful principal? Debatable. But at the same time, I think it gets back to the person. What I will say is that I think that some people have questioned whether a school principal has to come from a teaching background.

Having been appointed three years ago, there was a strong discussion about whether a school principal could come from outside education. In the end the school did not opt for that model, but it was a strong recommendation that a school principal is a CEO.

I still feel that a school principal needs to have an educational background. It needs to understand the importance of adolescence stages of development. It needs to understand the learning process. It needs to understand the gifted, talented, as well as special needs and the ability to deal with them.

I think that's a very important part of education which people outside education do not understand, and I'm not trained or educated in that area.

So, how much experience does a person need to be a successful principal? I would say somewhere from 12 years on, at least, before they could look at a position of a school principal in a setting similar to mine.

It may be different in a small community school of less than 30 or 40 primary school area but generally a school similar to mine, I would say at least 12 years plus.

Can you provide some real life examples of other people who have followed your advice in the field of education?

Mark: There are many examples of students at Aquinas who have gone into teaching. Some are actually prac students at the school as we speak and they have followed the drive for boys to be further involved in education. I think it's a wonderful chance for boys to come back to the school that they were students probably not to continue to teach here, but to at least have a preliminary example of what teaching at Aquinas is like. I think it's important that these boys expand further and go into other systems to experience other educational environments.

But, there have been a number of times where I've encouraged boys to look at teaching as a viable career option, not only here at Aquinas, but also at other forms of education in whether it be the area of phys ed or math or science, I think it's important that we continue to show a great deal of pride in our profession. And, this can only be done by continuing to produce young teachers of the quality that we are currently doing by encouraging all boys to become student leaders and teachers within our community.

What are some of the common problems that people experience in their role as a successful School Principal?

Mark: In developing of the school, which is more of a deputy's role, I think the difference between being a deputy and principal is, one is clearly managing the school in our model and the principal is there to lead and direct. At times it can be a little bit daunting and you can actually fall back into the deputy's role more so than the principal's role. That's one

common problem. I think the second common problem is there can be that drive away from education. In my case, the drive for financial security where the idea of finance is far more important than what you're trying to achieve.

Probably the third thing is becoming purely and utterly driven by academic results whether that's through TEE, Naplan, so you actually become driven by what I call your share price where you look at your results and you can be pushing them so hard that you forget about the purpose of your schooling.

And probably finally, I think the sense that you still have to maintain a difference between vision and detail where there isn't anything better than going around to a boy and saying, "Congratulations about your recent math test," and he would have no idea where it came from, or, "Congratulations, you kicked two goals on the weekend in football." To collect a little bit of data or happy birthday. So, to collect enough details in a school, I think, as a principal, as well as provide the vision is really important.

And, that tension between detail and vision can be osculated at different times of the year when you still feel connected with the community and with boys on whatever basis you choose.

If you had one secret to give about being a successful School Principal, what would it be?

Mark: One secret about being a successful school principal? Be happy with yourself. Be happy with the decisions you make. Always go back to the values in your heart that you aspire to so when a decision comes, quite often it can be a difficult one, you have to get inside yourself and be happy with the decisions you make. Collect all the details, but in the end if you're going to be successful, you have to be happy with the decisions you make, not what other people want, not what is expected of you, but with what you think is correct.

What have been your highlights, your rewards, in being a successful School Principal?

Mark: I think in my short three years, I suppose, firstly is the writing of a strategic plan which outlines the progress over the next five years which has a small number of measures and aspirations in that plan. Secondly I think, is the appointment of staff who I think can take us along that journey, particularly the introduction of younger staff members who have a passion, who have a digital literacy, who are connected with children and who will assist us in moving forward. Probably thirdly is the setting up of indigenous scholarships at Aquinas to look at other aspects within Aquinas. We are still aspiring to some form of special needs and I think that's important to look outside the normality of our normal school life here at Aquinas.

Probably lastly, the other highlight would be the continuation of the cultural characteristics of the school from bullying surveys to staff development surveys to understand and put in

some measures that we're aspiring to listen to areas of concern or inactivity and put in place goal setting tasks that we can improve those areas which we are not so good at.

What sort of things can someone do to stay a successful School Principal?

Mark: There's no doubt that to be a successful school principal and to remain there, as you say, to stay a successful principal certainly, first of all, is reflective practice. I seem to think better when I'm away from the school. I think that's important to take time out at school holiday times or on weekends to clear the mind, to clean the soul, to rest the bones and the mind. I've made some poor decisions when I've been tired, frustrated, emotional. I'm far better after being reflective, thinking about problems, issues, people or persons.

And, I think that's important in that reflective leadership to come back to an issue or a case much clearer than you've been before.

So to stay a successful principal, definitely you need to be re-energized, reflective. And that, rightly or wrongly for myself, means time away from the office to do those things whether it's a night at the movies, a weekend away or a week away with family in the holidays is really important.

You can feel guilty, but I think at the same time it's important to do those things to stay in good shape, good form to make sure you can continue to be a successful principal.

And finally, Mark, how can current principals or educators aspiring to become successful School Principals contact you?

Mark: I think, if I take it from a micro, I love walking around the school. I love reading. I love being in contact with people who are always aspiring to be principals or educators. I think what I like is face-to-face contact. You talked about how they can get in contact with me, I think the idea of formation of staff and the idea of being part of a school community is really important.

I'm always contactable here at the school and I'm always happy to have a chat.

Andrew: Thank you, Mark. I've enjoyed this interview with you. You have some very deep seeded values and I have no doubt that your school is a very successful school because of the role that you play and I'm sure many aspiring educators, once they listen to this, will gain many insightful thoughts and practices to take away with them. Thank you, again, Mark.

So ends the first in the series, "What it takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary." Until next time, this is Andrew Belotti signing off, and remember to, Let Your Spirit Run Free.

PAUL BILLING PRINCIPAL THORNLIE SENIOR HIGH SCHOOL

Good afternoon everyone. This is Andrew Belotti with another in the series, "What It Takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary." It's a wintry Wednesday afternoon in June and I'm sitting with Mr. Paul Billing, principal of Thornlie Senior High School, a school of approximately 1,000 students and 80-plus staff. Thornlie Senior High School is a government school located in Thornlie, a suburb of the city of Perth, Australia. Mr. Billing has kindly allowed me to interview him with regards to, "What it takes to be a successful School Principal".

Mr. Billing, what is so good about being a School Principal?

Paul Billing: Well thanks, Andrew. The thing I enjoy about being a school principal, I think, is that I have an opportunity to influence things in a way that, as a classroom teacher, I couldn't influence. All of us have approaches and philosophies and ideas about effective education. I think that, whilst I didn't ever consider, for a long time, that I wanted to be a principal, when I did decide I wanted to be a principal, the reason I decided I wanted to be a principal was that I thought that I had something to offer in terms of taking the ideas I had about teaching and learning and trying to get them implemented in the school, supporting teachers, supporting the students. Also getting an organization operating in a way that effectively put those sorts of ideas in place. And that's what I enjoy about being a school principal.

I would say that in my current context, I haven't achieved all the things I wanted to achieve. But the thing that I enjoy about it is that I've got a vision about what I want to achieve. I know what I want to do every day, and it's got a future focus about it.


Paul: Well, in terms of how I became involved in education, I guess, in some ways, it was a bit accidental. The things I did well at school lent themselves to me either being a teacher or going into journalism or something like that. I guess, whilst I didn't choose teaching as a 17-year-old with any great passion, it was something I felt that I was qualified to do. I suppose I always figured that I had good interpersonal skills. Even then I thought I had reasonably good interpersonal skills, and I thought that would lend me to being a successful teacher. I also had in the back of my mind the fact that I had, in my humble estimation, as a 17-year-old, some pretty lousy education. I always figured that I could probably do a better job than the people who taught me.

So there was a little bit of a drive behind me doing it, in that sense. Although I wouldn't say that I chose it with any great passion. I always felt that I could make a good fist of it,

reflecting on what had happened to me as a student and also what I thought were the qualities I had better bring to being a teacher anyway.

As to becoming a principal, well, it wasn't something I actually set out to do. And it wasn't really until quite late in my career that I decided that being a principal was something I could do and I thought that I could do reasonably effectively. For many, many years, anyway, I was a classroom teacher and head of department. When I went into teaching, I always viewed that what I had to offer was as a classroom teacher, and my aspiration was only ever to become a head of department.

A series of coincidental events led me to spending a little bit of time outside of school and working in the district office as a curriculum officer and in another sort of management role in district. It just gave me a different view of education, and it gave me the opportunity to sit back and look at schools at a kind of macro level.

What I saw were these organizations that weren't quite as random in the way they operated as what I thought they were when I was actually immersed in them. I saw that, in lots of ways, they were interesting reflections in the personalities, clearly, with the range of personality leading the schools. Each of the schools had a personality, or reflections of those personalities. Some of them, I thought, well, that's fantastic. I like what I see. And some of them, I thought, I could do a better job than that.

And I suppose, once that seed was planted, and with the encouragement of some mentors at the time, I started to believe in myself that not only was it me having these secret thoughts about, well, you could do a better job than that. But people were encouraging me, saying, yes, you've got the skills to do it. And so, really, it was a slow dawning for me that maybe I had something to offer.

I think that if this series of coincidental events that had led me to the district office hadn't occurred, I would still be in the classroom. I don't know if I'd be jaded or I'd be enjoying it. I always did enjoy it. As I say, it's almost an accident that I became a principal because I never set out to become a principal. Once I started teaching, and I learned to enjoy it, I continued to enjoy it and wanted to do it, because it was only very late in my career that I decided...

What are the top three things that someone should know or should possess in order to be a successful School Principal?

Paul: This is really, really tricky, because I suppose what I think you need to have is the capacity to work successfully with people and bring them together. That's the number one thing, I think. Actually, it's pretty hard to separate them in rank order. But up there as well is actually a vision or a view about education and what's good for kids. I think in the past when people found their way into jobs as principals, and the old system we used to have in most of Australia, people would just get onto the list and wait until their number came up, and it

was just like that's your just dessert. Just before you retire, you get a principal's job. You sit back and you manage the place, and then you retire.

I believe that to work successfully as a principal, actually, even if it's for nothing more than your own sense of self satisfaction, you've got to have a vision about what you're trying to achieve. You've got to have some thoughts about what's important for students, how schools should function, and how classrooms should. And I think you need to have the capacity about you to reflect on students that you've got before you and the community that you lead. And to work to tailor a set of strategies that will work, that are good for all the students that you've got at the school.

At this school, that's probably a little bit more complex, with 1,000 students, than it was at my last school, where there were a couple of hundred students. But I suppose, even as I say that, I'm thinking well it doesn't matter. Every student that you've got is an individual anyway, so you need to build capacity in the school to be able to respond to the needs of that individual. So it's just a matter of scaling up.

I don't know if I've named three things, certainly two things anyway. One is to have a clear vision about what you want to achieve in education, what's good for the kids. The second one, I think, is the ability to work with people and bring them on board, to work in a way that will achieve the best outcomes.


Paul: Well, given that I would say was an accident that I got here, I'm not sure that I'm the best person to answer that question, although maybe that's the best way to do it. Well, I suppose that I've nothing against people who see themselves as career principals and set out to become principals, because people have got to have ambition about their goals and passion about things. I suppose there are many different roads to achieving it. The road for me was immersing myself in education, stepping outside of the classroom briefly, looking around and as I'm sick of saying, I tried to find my own way and then deciding to go there. So for me what it was was about becoming a successful teacher.

My view of the principal's job is that is best, I reckon, encompassed by the system that's used in the UK. Principals of schools are former teachers. And that's what I reckon. Principals ought to be head teachers with the focus on teacher and not on business skills. I think the business manager can run the schools.

So I think the best thing, the thing I think I brought to being a principal, what I would say about having been on the road to becoming a successful principal, or becoming a principal anyway, is to be a good teacher and to be immersed in and passionate about teaching. I know that doesn't sound like career advice, in a sense, but that's what drove me to do what

I have eventually done in my teaching career, and that's to become principal or head teacher.

I suppose I can't speak for other people who started out with a bit of a corporate view about how I am going to get there. My focus is about passion and about teaching and a focus on teaching in the classroom.


Paul: Well, I honestly don't know the answer to that question, because I don't know when the moment will arrive when I'm satisfied and I would be confident in saying, I am a successful school principal. Well, it's like teaching. I don't know if there was ever a moment when I could have said that I had nailed teaching, was a great teacher or a successful teacher. I was reasonably satisfied with my performance as a teacher. And I had moments of great joy as a teacher and moments of incredibly deep depression [laughs] as a teacher. And the same is true as a principal. There are moments when I reckon I really kicked goals at the school, here and at my previous school. Now other times, I thought, oh my God, I really stuffed that up, or people haven't got what I'm on about, or I can't believe there are people blocking my way to do this thing that seems so logical to me.

There are always those daily, weekly, monthly highs and lows in the job. I don't know how you measure the success of a principal, whether it's a happy staff, whether it's students achieving at their highest potential. There's so many dimensions and so many...Schools are complexes places and learning is a complex business. So to say how would it take to be become a proficient principal, for me it's a never-ending journey.

I'm sure there are people who are more gifted than me, just falling into the job and everything. They have skills that I haven't got and their success has come quickly, however you might measure that. I can't conceive of a time when I would say about this school that it is a successful school. And I'm not trying to denigrate it. All I'm saying is, there's always work that needs to be done.

I suppose one measure of success for me is: as long as people working with me acknowledge that there is work to be done and there is agreement about the work we have to do, then that is a degree of success. But there's no kind of finishing post for me that says, once I push that straw through those two posts, the school is successful; therefore, I am successful. So I don't know how long it takes.

It's one of those cliché questions like, how long is a piece of string? I think it's an ever-evolving exercise and I believe, in the same way that I used to believe this about me as a classroom teacher, is that if there was ever a moment when I was arrogant enough to say I'm successful and I've nothing else to learn in this job, it would be time to pack up and go home.

I've been doing this job for nearly seven years now. It doesn't seem that long to me, but when I say it, it's long and I feel like I'm still a novice. Maybe I'll be able to reflect on, in my retirement speech, that I've had some success, but for me it's a long journey. And it's impossible to say, from my point of view even though what would be the magical time that it takes to learn to become a...

Will your methods or advice work in any area and for anyone?

Paul: You mean in terms of being a principal? Well, I think that the approach that I have to being a principal is adaptable. Just by virtue of the fact that I've worked in schools, which are low socio-economic schools throughout my career, I've always felt more at home in those schools. Sometimes I wish I could be taken out of those schools, but I know that's where I belong, that's where I comfortable and where I feel I have the most to offer. When I give any advice, the only advice I can give is couched in what sections I've been on and what I do and what impact I had. When I attempt to envisage myself in a different kind of school, there are some schools that don't fit into my vision, as much as I know those schools might offer me a more comfortable retirement. So I don't know if whether that's just a prejudice of mine, or if what I'm saying about being a principal is adaptable to all classes.

Certainly, I think the key things I believe about having a clear vision about what's important about teaching and learning to share than vision and getting people on board with that vision. I think that's immutable, that has to exist in any school. If you haven't got that, then, you haven't got a culture and you don't have anything to cling to and you haven't got an organization that's effective.

So, I think that that's something that's generic advice. Well, I've already talked about my thoughts about how to become a principal. I think that's very much a horses for courses.


Paul: For me it was about 20 years. [laughs] Really, I can only talk about my own experience and I wouldn't make a prescription for anyone. What worked for me, and I suppose it comes through in me telling the story of how I became a principal, is really that I built a repertoire of teaching skills and developed a level of confidence about myself in the classroom and in the school. I had been kind of capitalized on those things by getting some experience that was a bit broader than just working in the school. It all came together in a way that made sense for me.

When I say that throughout my career, up until very late in the day I had no desire to be a principal, I guess what I'm saying is what worked for me was immersing myself in being a classroom practitioner. I carry that with me all the time. I still think of myself as a teacher. I still think I've got something to offer in a classroom. I still think I've got things to offer when

it comes to relating to students. I guess I would say as long as it takes to get all of those things onboard, is what it takes.

I would hate to see, and I probably alluded to this earlier, that kind of corporatization of things, where people go in to teaching with the view that their aim is to become a principal. Then everything they do is directed towards that in the sense that they schooled themselves up in financial skills, and schooled themselves up in the latest theories about management, and all those things. All the while building a place for them to become principal.

I really have a very passionate view that principals again as I said before need to be immersed in education, to be successful teachers. I don't reckon you can become a principal unless you're a good teacher and you need to be comfortable in your skin in the classroom. I suppose it depends on how longs that takes as to when a person is ready to become a principal. I might have been past my due date. I don't know but it was right for me at the time I became principal.

So I wouldn't ever put a number of years or anything on it. My only caveat would be that people are good teachers, people that become principals. Obviously, not every good teacher is going to be well suited to be principal because there are differences in what additional skills you need to take with you out of the classroom.

Can you provide some real life examples of how people have followed your advice in the field of education?

Paul: One of the things I thought was really important to do, when I came to this school and I looked around, out of 80 staff here we didn't have anyone who was a level three classroom teacher. I thought that was almost scandalous. Whether it's giving advice or not I don't know, but what I thought was really important to do was to actually tap into the huge amount of expertise we had in the school and invite people to take up the opportunity to try to become a level three classroom teacher. Amazingly, once I offered people the opportunity to participate in workshops to learn how they could go about doing that, of 80 staff I got 20 people coming to one of the seminars. Not all of them have gone through and done, at least not yet anyway. I hope they do in later years. Out of that group I've formed some quite close relationships with teachers who I try to develop sort of a mentor relationship with and encourage them to see in themselves the skills they've got that should be recognized. They should give themselves that status as expert teachers, if you like.

Within the profession and in very recent time, I've spent quite a lot of time with about three or four teachers in the school. Encouraging them, mentoring them, finding opportunities for them to develop their skills both in the classroom and beyond the classroom. To me it's like working with kids, and I don't mean that the needs of the people I work with it's just the way I feel that they develop skills in people.

You develop a relationship with the people you want to develop. You help them recognize the skills and attributes they've got and you provide them with opportunities to develop them. There's one teacher here at the moment who I know was very frustrated about not having had opportunities in the past. So I've sort of took him under my wing because I could see potential in him to become a lead coordinator.

With my encouragement he's sort of stuck his hand up and said he wanted to be one of those things. I appointed him because I could see that he had potential, that he had been feeling a bit frustrated about being overlooked. He's a good classroom teacher. He's got a lot to offer kids in his classroom and formed a really strong relationship with kids on a kind of one on one basis. But I've been here in the classroom he's been getting frustrated and contradicting himself as we all do when we're frustrated.

So I nurtured him and encouraged him and tried to bring out what I thought were the things that he had to offer, which were beyond the classroom. He has taken that up and is doing a brilliant job. He's like a sponge who wants to know more, wants to learn more. I find it really very rewarding working with him in that way. Because I think he's starting to realize what he's got to offer the school and he's using those opportunities That's a recent example.

I think that one of the roles of a high school principal is it's actually just not only just thinking about the opportunities for the student but thinking about opportunities for your classroom teachers.


Paul: To know when to shut up. It's not just about being a principal, it's a skill that it took me a long time to learn just being a teacher or in any kind of interaction with people. Particularly as a principal, it's a skill that I'm really focused on. I'm someone who really you don't have to give me too much of an opportunity to offer my opinion about something. I learnt pretty quickly, I think, over the time that I moved into becoming a principal and during my time as a principal, that the more I shut up and don't offer my opinions the more people feel like they're engaged and they're being listened to.

It's not just a trick of making people feel that they're listened to. I recognized that when I butt in to quickly it closes down discussion. It was one of the things that I found hard to understand when I first became principal, that in the contrast of discussion and debate, I would always and I do in my personal life, be as good as I get. But I discovered once I started giving as good as I was getting that shut people up because I was the principal.

Even though I didn't see myself as someone whose opinion mattered anymore than anyone else's, the reality is for better or worse that's how people view principals because we are in a management role. So I had to teach myself to shut up and to listen because once I closed down debate by jumping in too quickly, all the good ideas that might come out of a diverse

and free ranging conversation are closed off. So the secret I learned was, is about knowing when to shut up.


Paul: Well, I think that the skills associated with being a school principal, apart from, you know having professional knowledge and things like that, they're all, in my mind they're all about successful relationships. But you can't have successful relationships all the time with a diverse range of people. There will always be people who are unhappy with what you do or unhappy with what other people do. They don't want to adopt new ways of doing things even when there's consensus, generally there's consensus about that, about doing those things. I suppose, the problems are just, the problems are that just, really often just the challenges of the job like, so how am I going to get that person on board with doing things in this particular kind of way? Or, is this something I can afford to ignore?

Someone once said to me that, in fact, one of the principals I admired most in, I know at the time, we divided our staff, I like him, I didn't like him and fortunately for me he became a bit of a mentor in helping me at the school. He used to say, "Never water the rocks." And I sometimes think about that because you know, it's a very easy thing to say and sometimes I do choose an issue that I'm not going to spend any energy on people that aren't going to get anything from me,

But I feel a little bit more inclusive about people than that. I don't think that people I would characterize as being rocks see themselves as being rocks. I always try to get behind what's the motivation behind why this person not like what we're doing and try to talk to them about what it is and what could we do, or could I do to make it worth their while to participate or what could I do to make it comfortable for them not to participate.

What accommodation can we reach? But they're the sorts, I think the most common problem, or I suppose the frustration of the fact that we're dealing with people. And people don't always fall into line as you would like them to. And no one, and you wouldn't want them to either. So they're the little frustrations.

There are other sorts, I mean there are daily problems, managerial problems obviously, but I think that they're small being compared to what is the essence of the job and that is working with a team of people, getting people to be a team and to take the common approach to doing things.

What have been your highlights, your rewards, of being a successful School Principal?

Paul: Well, one of the highlights would have to be working with you, Andrew. [laughs] Well I think the rewards are, you know if I think about the work we did as a team at Newport College, where over the course of I suppose two or three years we were really searching for something. I don't know that we all knew precisely what it was that we were searching for except there had to be something out there that would make that school work more effectively. The greatest reward I've had in my time as a principal has been getting to a point with a group of teachers like the teachers at Newport where we all had a simultaneous "Aha" moment and that galvanized us to work in a way. That was rewarding but what was even more rewarding was when it worked. And we could see the fruits of our labor.

That's been the biggest boast for me as a principal is working in that little school with a group of dedicated people with a focus and not just having the focus and feeling like, we're onto something here but we wish like we could see the rewards, but we did see the rewards and that was, that's been the biggest boast for me.


Paul: Well probably, never, never reach the point where that, where they're a successful school principal. It's about not being complacent. We all have successes in our jobs, but if you think that's the end of the road and you stop learning or trying, and it happens. It happens to teachers who stay. Well, anyone in any profession who stay in one place too long I think and unless you renew yourself within that job, find different things that challenge you, then you should move on and find something else. You know, as a classroom teacher I always used to check out my school programs every year because I didn't want to bore myself by doing the same thing the next year and I figured out how to do something better as well.

I knew that when I did something, when I did repeat something, even when I'd taken a lesson from one class to the next it would never have gone as well as it did in the previous class because the energy I brought to the first time I did it wasn't the same.

I know that's not a prescription for being a successful principal but, and I suppose that's an attitude I have to anything that I'm going to do that what I do, I'm not dissatisfied with myself but I've never reached the point where I'm self satisfied or complacent. I figure that the whole thing is a journey. I enjoy the journey and I don't know what the destination is, but, I don't know if there is a destination.

I think that, I mean, my approach to life and to work I guess you can't separate, means that these things are journeys. There's not a moment when you can sit back and say, it's all over. Because if you did that, well it's all over, so you...

How can current principals, or even current educators aspiring to be school principals contact you?

Paul: Well, I'm very happy to talk to people who are interested in the way I go about my work or think that I've got anything I can offer them. I have very much an open door policy in my office. I have teachers often come and talk to me about, you know teachers come and talk to me about how can I get to be a department head, how can I get to be a deputy and so on. I'll be happy if they approach me and talk to me about that sort of thing.

Andrew: Well Paul, I've enjoyed this immensely. I've focused on everything that you've said. There's many, many similarities and like what you've said. We've shared some times together in a school. So thank you very much. It's been quite an experience for me to have shared this educators' time together. I have no doubt that any aspiring principal listening to this will have gained much from your thoughts and experiences. You keep mentioning your reflections and that you're not there, etc. Well I see it as a really evolving situation, continually evolving.

So ends another in the series, "What it Takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary." Until next time, this is Andrew Belotti signing off, and remember to, "Let Your Spirit Run Free."

MICHAEL MORGAN PRINCIPAL SHENTON COLLEGE

Good morning everyone. This is Andrew Belotti, with another in the series, "What It Takes To Be A Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary." It's a Thursday morning, the 24th of June, and I'm sitting with Mr. Mike Morgan, principal of Shenton College, a school of approximately 1270 students and 220+ staff. Shenton College is a government school located in Shenton Park, a suburb of the city of Perth, Australia. Mr. Morgan has kindly allowed me to interview him with regards to what it takes to be a successful School Principal.

Mr. Morgan, what is so good about being a School Principal?

Michael: I think certainly what I enjoy most about being a school principal is that you're part of the puzzle you're part of the solution. I really enjoy that if we all align great family, great students, great teachers, great support staff, and great administrators to actually be able to see that and have a view and be part of that team and work out. When we all get it right the difference it makes to a child. That's a wonderfully rewarding process, and I've been fortunate enough to see it and experience it on a number of occasions. There's a lot of times that that success happens and you're not there at the moment to or you are not there to really have it articulated, but occasionally when a child or family can articulate the process and the part you've played in that process it's extremely rewarding. I started out with UWA doing zoology and undertaking honors research in the sexual role reversal of Gryllidae Supplicants, which is the Indian Cricket, and after looking at that for a while and spending some hours undertaking that research, I must say I sort of had an incline that there must be something more for me. I feel that I'm a person who likes the dynamics of being able to have a person to person and people to people contact. So I moved from there into doing a diploma and then was very fortunate to have a position in a school right away, but also in a school which was growing and was dynamic and that was Woodvale at the time.

And so I moved along that path I undertook further studies. As one learns very much from their colleagues, and I learned an awful lot from my heads of department and also my fellow teachers, that teaching really was a craft, so I undertook further studies, and I undertook an MBA, and then after doing all that I decided it was time to go on a country experience that was made somewhat easier by my wife who I had met at UWA who was Swedish and didn't have a real connect to Perth or to the city, so we went out on our wonderful country experience to some of the more colorful places, and places that certainly gave me really wonderful experiences. Places that some people travel through at high speeds and some people slow down and actually get to appreciate, places like Norseman and Leonora.

And then I was fortunate to work as a principal consultant for the Goldfields in Kalgoorlie and also do principal-ships out in mining towns like Newman. So it's been a very interesting

journey, and I can't say the road that I travelled anyone provided me with a map at the early stages. I wasn't exactly clear where I would end up, but I certainly know that the journey along the way has always been a bit bumpy, but it's been driven by a real passion to try and actually perfect the craft of teaching and then actually perfect the craft of trying to be a school principal.

What are the top three things that someone should know or should possess in order to be a successful School Principal?

Michael: I'd have to add that I think this is a very reflective question. It took me a lot of time to come up with, trying to distil this down to the top 3. I'd have to say that certainly one of the top things that a principal needs to know, if they are to be a successful school principal, I believe they need to know what it feels like to be an unsuccessful student and a successful student. I believe that's absolutely vital to know that first and fore mostly the difference that a child feels from being unsuccessful at something and that same child when they are actually successful at something because I don't believe you are an unsuccessful individual. It's just the task that you engage in. You might not have success at that particular time. So that's probably my first one. The other one that I believe is very important to know, is what it's like to be a classroom teacher in the classroom of today. I certainly try and ensure I set aside, at least, some time each week to really engage in what a classroom teacher experiences and remind myself of the actions that I'm taking and how they would be perceived by me if I was that classroom teacher.

Why I think that's important is because I truthfully do believe that all the words and all the rhetoric and all the great decisions and all the leadership skills are, they're very important, but it's actually change in the classroom driven by the teacher that is going to ensure that the real effect actually happens, and that means the teacher has to share it and the teacher has to own it and therefore, knowing the burdens, the pressures placed on the classroom teacher would be certainly one of the, probably the second most important thing, and I know I'm giving you three, but please, I'm not really trying to prioritize them in any order.

Now the third one. The third one, that I see, is a way in which you can try and break down and forgive me but I did explain my zoological background-the islands that seem to exist and they, the islands that we create, they can be as much as in one particular classroom from another particular classroom, or in the case of a school it can be from one learning area to another learning area, it could be from a middle school to the senior school.

But I feel that there is actually a real problem that if we allow these islands to be created and become so real you get this, what I call, "learning speciation" where you actually can have wonderful things going on but you're creating these individual students in a particular classroom or a particular learning area, but we're not allowing the flow of ideas to actually be shared and to create a far more resilient child and a far more able child. People have some biological patterns, they all make sense out of what that actually means.

So, in that, how do you do that third one? I think very much it's very important, therefore, a successful school principal needs to be very clear of what their strengths are but also what their weaknesses are and not avoid their weaknesses but certainly be aware of their limitations.

And understand that there are, you're part of the team. You're not the only player. You might be-whatever metaphor, analogy you want to use, whatever you're at the helm or whatever but you've got so many wonderful sailors and so many brilliant people who can offer ideas and give navigation points and do all these things that it would be, it's really wrong to try and believe that you have to be the master of all, that you have to actually be the person, and the only person, that can resolve it. So, to be a successful school principal, you're very aware of what your limitations are, but how you can actually draw upon the skills of others to effect that change. I would say those probably as the three key points for success.

What is best way to get started on the road to becoming a successful School Principal?

Michael: Well again I know you have crafted these questions very well. I am a bit reticent in two ways to answers these questions. I am not a person who reflects that I'm a successful school principal but I certainly can tell people what, the path I went and I certainly can say that there were things that I, looking back now after going on that path. There are probably some tips that i can give on the way. But, I would have to say that first and fore mostly if you are going to go on the road, on this path, it is going to be a windy one, it is going to be sealed or unsealed at times. So you better be passionate, you better really know that this is what you want to do. That you want to make a difference in a child's life but also you want to make a difference in teacher's life and that you want to make a difference in education. Now that passion is something that you can't check at any moment, but you certainly can reflect back as a classroom teacher. If your classroom teacher is so passionate about your students and the change that you want to make then that's a good start, that is a really good start if you, the best way to get started is really OK yeah, i am passionate, that is great. Secondly, know the craft of leadership, know the craft of dealing with people, know the craft of managing change, know the craft of what it takes.

As a successful principle, you are a leader and leadership to me is, no matter you can read all you like and advise a bit too, but whether you talk about seven traits of leadership, 15 traits of leadership, eight principles of leadership, at the end of the day, leadership is there are actually two things. One, you have got to be actually having someone following you. So it is more than one person, it is not just you going somewhere. And the other is social skills. So there is a direction, you are going somewhere, you are not just going around in circles, there is a point you go into. And you are taking someone which requires real skill to deal with people. It is a people business, so if you are going to get started, be well aware that you have that desire to work with people.

Also as you are getting started, i think, as you are going on that road, you need to ensure you maintain the understanding, maintain and ready widely. Because it is an every changing paradigm that we deal with in education. I heard of the other day that problem with education these days is that the future is not what it used to be. And it is a nice way to reflect back that if you are going to get started, its a step at a time but you are going somewhere. So be passionate, know your craft, communicate well and know your communication skills because you are actually working with people. You are not going there by yourself.

How long does it take to proficient at being successful School Principal?

Michael: Well I will give my earlier answer. I think the answer to that is to become proficient, what ones level of proficient is, certainly I am not there yet, I can say that. It is, I don't like answering a question with a question, but how long does it take to become a proficient at being a successful school teacher. The proficiency is so hard to answer because again I got back, this is a social sport. This is something that very much a dynamic with people, this is not a static stage. This is something that is ever changing, justice in the classroom, the child may come in and all of the skills that you had may have worked so brilliantly with other child but it suddenly doesn't work with that child and you have to learn other ways to communicate, other ways to get that person engaged. I think, as a principal, it allows you to learn skills that enables you to become far more capable, far more resilient to the dynamics. But at the same token, I would say that there is no defined time that you could say. But that said, there is certainly things you can learn which I pointed out that would enable you to become proficient.

And certainly parts of that are that your proficiency would depend on these characteristics, you passion and desire to learn, craft you exposure to diverse learning environments, to diverse school environments. I think proficiency; very much you can see wonderful principals and brilliant principals who are extremely professional, but there proficiency may be of a particular context or a particular environment. And that is where I found myself in a changed environment I really have reflected but there is still so much more to learn, so much more to get more efficient at.


Michael: Simply no. Again I hope I am not confusingly as the question more than it needs to be. But when I reflect on some things. there are certainly skills that you can gain that you can gain easily and I have talked about those, there are certain methods that will enable you to operate well in a diverse range of environment. And there are certainly methods to leadership, that is given. But the question of, will methods or advise work in any area and for anyone, needs to point out that schools are social places, and school are not static. They are diverse and that is very interesting because it needs to be taken into account when selecting teachers for schools and principals for schools. The idea that people have skill sets

that can work in any environment or any area, would only work if things are very static. Schools are these wonderful, vibrant places where we have children coming in at all ages, but, as low as four or as old as 18. And in the case where I am, we have 12 to 17, we have children who come in at the top level of gifted academic, spectrum through the gate academic select program. We have students who come in from wonderfully strong backgrounds.

But who have vast range of issues as any child does in today's environment, we have students who are deaf, we have, what is very good reflection of the world and in all those diversities to have one tool, one device that would work. No, but certainly just to add to that, there is a tool kit, there is a medicine bag. So there is no one pill that dependency, but yeah if you have developed a set of those sets that I talked about, if you have passion, if you have the knowledge and the craft, if you have good communication skills that is really going to help you in those environments.

But no, my advice is continuously learn and be prepared to understand that each new skill that you learn will be more suited to a particular environment. But even when you have learned what is a wonderful skill set to a particular school, each year it would change. The students coming in would change, their needs would change, their requirements would change. Teachers requirements will change the system will change. It's that wonderful word of the educational paradigm. Education changes because it reflects what we all know and that is that society changes and there for your skill sets and the way in which you apply those skills.


Michael: This goes back to proficiency, but I think you ...What are they more than how much. For me a successful school principal would need to have a very good experience in the class. I believe that's paramount, I don't believe you can come in with just a business mind set and treat a school as a business institution, children as assets and talk about baselines. I think you need to very much have experience in the classroom, and successful experience in the class. That's my view. My view is also you to have had a diverse experience. So again how much experience, well certainly you would of ... It would benefit you not only to understand and where the students are from, but where the teachers are from and all of those barriers to change.

And all of those challenges to education. If you have actually had a little bit of experience in schools that may have high social economic index, low social economic index, metropolitan schools, country schools. Because it again provides you with a range of tools and experience that you cannot just extract from a text.

That you have to go through so you can actually be prepared to back your decisions after you have consulted, after you have listened and that's very hard if you don't have that

experience of what it's like in the classroom. Is this a fair expectation, is this an unrealistic requirement that you're placing on people, or is this more a fair just thought through real expectation?

The more widely is probably were the experience you want ... Is you really want that date experience, you want breadth in your experience. Rather probably the two aspects I'd say rather than how much.


Michael: I can give you two. One is the teacher scenario. The teacher who followed the advice and I'll give a fellow administrator. But look from the teaching perspective I remember when I was out in the more remote parts of the WA. A teacher who was just outstanding really, from everything I could see in terms of the work they had developed. But they had lost the passion and they had lost the desire to really do the things that...There was so much evidence in ... When you looked at what they had developed in the past you wonder why that wasn't happening anymore and certainly if I go back to what I said before.

It wasn't that they didn't have the knowledge of the craft. It wasn't that they couldn't communicate well with the students. They'd lost the passion and I think it's absolutely vital that we remember that's it's our job as principals, not to then say, "Well, obviously that teachers not good enough."

It's how do we then reignite the flame I suppose and especially when you got someone who's just so talented in terms of their knowledge and ability to communicate. That came from really looking at well what was it that lost ... That made them feel that their no longer engaged.

Really they had felt undermined they had felt that they had been silenced, that they really couldn't effect change. It wasn't that they didn't love teaching. It was that they didn't feel that they could make the difference they really wanted to make. Again what is wonderful about being in the principal is within reason, certainly within the school environment you can make a significant difference.

Being able to work out what it was that this person thought blocked in. What is it that this person really wanted to do and being able to then resourced that, resource that in time, resource that in a range of ways the enable that person to suddenly become reignited. In this case the teacher had a real desire. There was a large number indigenous student's within the school and I real desire to make a difference to those students.

And wanted to take a look at aspects of their literacy and bring in some wonderful technical literacy's skills to get them to reengage in school. That felt ... That hadn't been supported

and felt that they hadn't been adequately resourced. Really by making some minor changes, first of all listening to them, secondly working out where the blockers were.

Thirdly removing a number of those blockers, and giving them the resources, the time, the energy, to be able to actually implement some of those programs. This teacher within a matter of six months, you could start to see the change. About a year they really became reignited, and I can still say I can contact with this teacher and there's a real passion and a real relationship that's been formed.

That ... Where I feel very happy is it's not a big difference to a number of students who have been able to engage in programs, that probably they otherwise wouldn't let to engage in. That's the teacher example, but quickly the other one is the administrative role.

A teacher has to make a change, a principal has to make a change, and certainly I think part of the principles role is the sustainability of the leadership. I remember I had a deputy, a principal who really in supporting them in them developing their knowledge in particular areas. In some parts I think people pooh-pooh the theatrical sides of leadership.

Which seems a bit said, I think we can over do theory, don't get me wrong there. And under do practice, but there's a pace for both and supporting this person who had wonderful practical skills. But could learn that we're not leaders in isolation and it's not that other people haven't gone there before us.

Reading about the experiences of other people but also the theories of leadership, and reading and enabling this person to understand more about the craft of leadership from a theoretical perspective did benefit. I think that's potentially something that we do forget in times, that there have been wonderful school principals in every country from the dawn of time.

And being able to ... And wonderful leaders and being able to read about their experiences, but also to be able to read about what they did and read about some of the leadership theory is really helpful. This deputy has gone on and become a very successful principle in his own right.


Michael: The secret ... The secret to me when I really again reflected on this was that this is a people business. That it's a people business from the students are people, the parents are people, the support staff are people, the cleaner, the gardener, the teachers are people. That in this and people say ... They might say with well that's fairly self evident, but in reminding the people when you say that...That if you're going to do anything, if there's going to be any change that's sustained, if there's going to be any real learning it's reminding yourself that people need certain things. People need to understand but they need to feel connected. So, there needs to be a real passion.

I think in that element we certainly as a society are becoming more and there's reason for it. Data driven which has its reasons, but if you want to affect change, you have to affect change knowing that what you are affecting change on is a child.

The people who are doing that, teacher are also human beings. The way you develop relationships, the way you maintain those relationships is the absolute secret to being a successful principle because at the end of the day as far as the school is concerned, you model that and you managed that, and you lead that.

How do you as a principal relate to the student, how do you relate to the teacher, how do you relate to the sports star, how do you relate to the parent. What is the culture of positiveness in the school? What is the way in which you reflect a positive comment to a child? How often is that done?

It is wonderful because when we look at what data we record, we record a person's achievement in mathematics, a person's achievement in numeracy. But how often do we record the times that we sent something to say something positive? How often do we record the way we made a child feel?

We do surveys, and those surveys have really got to reflect the way in which we build a person because I certainly know a secret to learning and the secret to learning, to me, is confidence. A person who feels confident will be an effective learner.

That's not measured where the lay in the state, whether they're in the top 20 in Australia. But it does make a difference to them. If they're confident in what they do, in anything they do, they will learn better because they will engage better.

The only way we build that confidence is gradually, continuously, and personally. So, that's the success secret is it's a people business.

What are some of the common problems that people experience in their role as a School Principal?

Michael: The standard problems I think that - some of them I don't really need to comment on because I think they're just parts of society. I think the politicization of schools is an issue and the weakening position of teachers in society in the way in which they are perceived by society and the way in which they are honored by society would probably be the most common problem. They're a little bit more superficial and distant than probably drilling down to lack of resourcing and funding. I see them actually as more metaphysical, those two problems. Society knows and parents certainly know that children are their most valuable part of their life, and we certainly know that if we want to be a sustainable society and an affluent society, the change has to come from our next generation and that is our children.

So really, the way in which we constantly curriculum change and drive things only on a curriculum level, I think is an issue because we can't ever really focus on what counts. I said that is people gaining life skills of being able to make a difference if we over-politicize schools, and that has been a problem and will continue I think to be a problem in the future.

But also, the weakening position of teachers. If we really don't maintain or try and pursue that teachers are seen as the real change agents and attract the very, very best teachers to the profession then the job is hampered and is restricted.

What have been your highlights, your rewards in being a successful School Principal?

Michael: Well certainly my rewards in being a principal have been numerous. I have to say the rewards are really I suppose in three domains. One: in the child that you really see that it's all come together. That's just absolutely wonderful. And you can have all of those - we've all had them, but there's brilliant success stories in a child who becomes top in the state or the boy in the country school who suddenly is in the 99 Club. You see a community suddenly believe that they can send their child to their local school and their child can be in an elite group of top academics and pursue any pathway.

They're great, but I have to also say that the child, there are stories that when you see a child, for example, and there's a recent one who comes from a private school feeling alienated, feeling unaccepted, feeling ridiculed, feeling harassed.

And, this is no criticism about that school, this is just really interesting about the structures of these schools. And then, he comes here and he can be involved in plays, in drama, he feels accepted. He's with society. He's not in an all boy's school anymore. He's now in a coeducational environment.

And he feels, in his own words, where he felt so alienated, he now feels welcomed and included. Look, that's just wonderful to be a part of. And, then to see a boy who came so isolated and so insecure then stand out in front of the entire school at a Christmas concert and taking the lead role in singing and then take the lead role in drama and being so brilliant in what he did.

Yeah, that too, that's a huge success. But also, I have to say, the wonderful highlight of being able to see teachers succeed and develop, from graduating teachers coming in to extremely well experienced teachers.

And again, the third, I suppose, to name is very much the parents. When you know that it's all gone so well, to be able to feel that you are a part of it. And it is actually vital to point that out, that alignment I talked about it. When everything's come to together and your role in there is a very rewarding and a very nourishing experience.


Michael: OK. Listen before you act, learn how your teachers think. Work out that you are not the white knight. You're not solving every problem. You're not there on the horse to fix it all and distribute your leadership. No one is. Tolerate the blockers. There'll be people all along the path. There'll be teachers, there'll be community members, who might not relish the change or even celebrate the proposed change. It's not necessarily bad, because they can just be blockers. But, they can still be listened to.

But, sometimes, actually, they are blocking something that shouldn't change. So, tolerate them, listen to them. That's probably a little interesting one about how you can stay successful. Don't' just feel, "Well, we're going ahead, we are going forth," and try to barge through them.

And, other ones too is take risks, it's important. Certainly, you want to get that idea of what you're going through as successful school principals. I think you need to take some risks. This is a paradigm, so, you should be at the leading edge of it. You're not the leader who's following; you should be a leader that's leading, so take a few risks.

And, certainly some of the things to stay successful is, and probably hard for most teachers and for most principals, is you can't always give 110%. You've got a family, you've got a life. Work out a balance. You aren't the last person, if you go down, everything collapses. There's a lot of people there.

This is an ongoing issue. You need to maintain your balance. If that means giving 80% for 40 years rather than 120% for five and burning out, that's wonderful. But really, you're not very effective if you don't understand your own life and your own balance. So, have a life outside the school and do things that nourish you, because it's going to be a long road.

Final one Mike, how can current principals who are educators aspiring to become successful principals contact you?

Michael: Again, they can contact the school at any time. They can contact me via email, which is all on the departmental email. But really, probably the best protocol if they do want to contact and they're interested in something that's been said or they want to just talk through some aspect. I'm quite happy to be contacted and I would say that the easiest point would be through the school.

Andrew: Wow, fantastic Mike, I've enjoyed listening to your brilliant responses and even when the mic was off, impromptu discussions about our values with educations. So, thank you indeed. The listeners are sure to have benefited greatly, particularly if they are educators aiming to take their career further.

Yes, it is time. Until we meet again when we continue the series, "What It Takes To Be A Successful School Principal - Primary and Secondary," this is Andrew Belotti signing off, and remember, Let Your Spirit Run Free.

PHILLIP WHITE PRINCIPAL MELVILLE SENIOR HIGH SCHOOL

Good morning everyone. This is Andrew Belotti with another in the series, "What it Takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary". It's a Friday morning in late June and I'm sitting with Mr. Phillip White, Principal of Melville Senior High School, a school of approximately 895 to 900 students and 135 staff, made up of full time and part time. Melville Senior High School is a government school located in Melville a suburb of the city of Perth, Australia.

Mr. White has kindly allowed me to interview him with regards to what it takes to be a successful School Principal.

Mr. White, what is so good about being a School Principal?

Phillip White: Andrew, one of the things I'm a great believer in is the egalitarian nature of Australia. I'm a historian so I have always been fascinated by the fact that Australia's democratic principles are really underpinned very much by the fact that our people are educated. I think one of the great strengths] of a democracy is it always allows people with ideas to have a say. I think that's safe to say today. And as I say, I think the fact that public education has always been able to provide a person with whatever background the opportunity to get educated, to get to get to the rational ahead. The fundamental, and I mean it's absolutely fundamental, in shaping the democracy in Australian society of today.

Now therefore, to have been involved in education all my adult life is something I'm very proud of. And now to be in charge of a school, be a leader of a school is something that I just really, really enjoy. I think I enjoy it because it's really giving something back to our society, our great Australian nation. I think schools can really make a difference and I'm really proud to be the leader of a group of people who are all in the job of making a difference in Australia. This is what education does.

Can you give us a little background about how you became involved in Education and your road to becoming a successful School Principal?

Phillip: Probably like a lot of people of my era. I finished school in the early '70's. I drifted into a university. Well, probably not drifted. I think I always knew I was going to go to university. I came from a family background where you did go to university. I did the arts degree that a lot of people at the time went into; arts and science degrees were much more the norm in my era, rather than specializing upfront. I did my three year arts degree on historian interests, and I did history as a major. So, obviously, humanities played a big background.

Like a lot of people of my era, I didn't have a strong sense of where I wanted to go beyond that. I had a really good life, so I, again, drifted at the end of my arts degree into doing a graduate diploma. That just seemed to be the way that I drifted. I didn't particularly set out to become a teacher. I didn't have any great aspiration to become a teacher, but it's certainly where I was at the time.

Ever since I started doing my graduate degree I went towards education. I really found I enjoyed the theatre. I was doing the theatre. I'm a great believer that being a teacher is about communicating. It's about being able to act, in order to teach. You've got to be able to be charismatic in the classroom. You've got to be able to bring kids along.

That hasn't changed, now from what it was. The students might be different, but the fundamentals are not much different. I found I really enjoyed the stage of the classroom. So, I enjoyed doing my graduate at university, and then, subsequently, I really enjoyed being a teacher.

It's been something I've always liked doing. It's never been a job that I've not wanted to come to work with. So I've stayed in education, I think, 32 years. I think it's my 32nd or 33rd year in education now. I've pretty much enjoyed all of it. That's not to say that there aren't times of stress or times of anxiety.

Our job is a very complex job. Teaching, I think, is probably one of the most difficult jobs available to anyone in the workforce. That's not saying it's the role of policemen, firemen and things like that, but I think teaching is probably one of the toughest jobs in the workforce. I think that's generally not understood by the wider community. But I've really enjoyed it. I've enjoyed working at the schools. I've enjoyed working with kids, students. I've enjoyed working with teachers. So I've basically enjoyed very much education.

How's principalship come about?

Well, I've had a parallel career which I perhaps has tipped engagement stage and that's in the army reserve in the army. Basically at the same time as I graduated from the university as a teacher. I was 20, 21 based atPinjarra Senior High School. I also had completed an 18 month officer training course that saw me graduate as a lieutenant and I was posted to my then unit, the 10th Light Horse Regiment in my workplace as a troop leader. So basically I was a classroom teacher and an officer in the army at the same time. In a way I think that kept me engaged in education because education hasn't been my only work in life but a second job if you will, in parallel. And interestingly enough the job in the army is good for the leadership job. As a lieutenant you're a young man or young woman in charge of people who are 30, 40, 50 years of age and you're thrust into that leadership role. You're expected to produce.

So I guess I've had a strong leadership role in the army which has seen me progress obviously through the ranks from lieutenant to captain to major in charge of a couple hundred people and $20 million worth of equipment in my early thirties.

Then I went from major] to a lieutenant colonel in charge of 800 people with the army. I've gotten promoted to colonel and in charge of all of Western Australia and then of course more recently promoted in charge of the brigade in Western Australia in charge of 3000 people, $100 million worth of equipment, et cetera.

Many people have been deployed overseas in operation and so on. And at the same time, I've been still grounded in the stores that I've been proud of. And I think because I have been strongly involved in leadership in one I had been very involved in the leadership role of the other.

Now, a number of people, and by the way a lot of teachers are involved in the army reserve. Some of them actually are quite content to stay as a classroom teacher. They have a strong leadership role in one and not the other.

My situation may be a little different, I think I'm not someone who suffers fools gladly. I liked the being in charge. I know what I'm doing. I'm confident. So I think now I have the natural opportunity to get promoted. I have to say I haven't been desperate. I haven't done the usual country service as most do. I haven't done that. I'm lucky enough to get my opportunity from the city because I needed that. because I had another job if it was anything the city bound.

So, basically, what's happened, you've been parallel to my military career, I've been able to follow an education career. So at the same time I was charged with a post in the Army Reserve with the rank of major. I got my first opportunity to be a head of department at the Padbury Senior High School. And it seemed to go roughly hand and hand. I'd became a deputy principal at Ballajura and a lieutenant colonel in the army reserve. And I think the two careers have gone parallel.

I had a strong grounding as a youth coordinator throughout the '80's. I was lucky enough to go from Pinjarra where I was for 18 months and up to Craigie Senior High School. Different sort of education and background in those days in the '80's. The average age of a teacher was in the early 20's, and the heads of departments in their later 20s and principals and deputies often older. The principal is indicative of the old one but it was probably more of the same age that they tend to do now. We led young people's lives.

Every Friday afternoon gets up to the local tavern. We had a hundred staff there. They were young men and young women doing what young men and young women do in a different sort of world.

I was lucky enough to be spotted by one of the deputies at Craigie. He knew about the Army in that era, my formative era, there were a lot of principals and deputies around who had either, if not seen service in World War II, but certainly had enough close engagement with the military than the people we have nowadays.

A lot of those characters that hadn't been to Vietnam had done military service as part of the involvement with Vietnam as part of the Australian involvement. They knew what an officer in the Army had and what they were saying they had.

So I had a youth coordinator position offered to me when I was, again, a second or third year teacher. I had a large metropolitan high school. I really enjoyed that. I really enjoyed working with the students.I did two cycles there. I did 10 years as a youth coordinator.

But that was back in the era, again, when people didn't scramble desperately to get promoted quickly. It was one that enabled you to have a strong grounding in the craft. They could get a job they got good at but then they went on. It seemed to have a little bit of a situation perhaps in recent years where people don't get a good enough grounding in their jobs and get promoted and perhaps struggle a little bit .

So, I guess that is sort of the road I took. I was much more ambitious, I have to say, in my military career than I was in my education department career. But I had probably a couple of lucky breaks. I had some good mentors down the track who have enabled me, largely in education, to have a head of department job in one metropolitan school, get a deputy's job at another metropolitan school, and then to pick up my three principal jobs in metropolitan schools. Because if I hadn't been able to do that, I wouldn't have gone there. I couldn't have gone to the bush.

What are three things someone should know, should possess, to be a successful School Principal?

Phillip: Look, it is a complex question because there is no silver bullet to becoming good at anything to be honest. I believe a principal should be all about leadership[Inaudible 10:30]. You can't do it without departmental management. You can't do the management thing, you can't run a budget, you can't, you don't know how to process leave forms, do all of that if you don't know things about managing school like I had and so on, you are going to struggle. So I believe management is an important undercurrent part for that job. But I don't think, don't believe you can do this without being able to lead. Leadership is all about people. To lead you need to be able to get the people who you are working with, your colleagues, as a way that the principal is really the first among equals]. But in order to do that you have got to be able to work on people and relationships.

So I think our game is about relationships. I have been teaching about relationships. I think classrooms about relationships. I have been engaged with students and some who that said

I don't like kids any more. You as well give up the game in my view. And I would hate to be a principal where student and my staff, but didn't like the students in the school. And sadly I think there are some people who are in it because it probably because they have lost that relationship feel.

I think that is what relationships is all about. I also think that as a leader you have got to know where you want to go. A leader by definition is out in front. If you are not sure where you are going to take an organization, whether it's a small team or a school, if you don't know where it is going you are not leading by definition in my view.

The second thing I would say, you have got to have a vision. I don't mean a vision that is an airy fairy thing not necessarily complies with a dot point on a Department of Education plan or government plan. I just think a vision that means the staff in a school know that the school is in safe hands.

It needs to be a vision that largely supports the ethos of the school, the school community, the staff of the school, indeed the students of the school. So you don't know what you're going to do. And if your vision's to try dog food, everyone else is up your cupboard, that's how you get a relationship. But it shouldn't be because I think you're dying.

The principal really would say he's the first among equals. For a leader he'll want to take you with him in that team type of relationship. So relationships go nowhere, we want to take the school reorganization to our vision. And our focus, third one, links to that. And that is you've got to be able to bring staff along with you. And the community along with it. I think it's the staff that are the more challenging ones.

I think we need to, as a leader, recognize the complexity of the people you're leading. Recognize the issues of the people who you are leading might have. And the work in an organization that mismanaged change on many occasions that therefore leads to cynicism in the work force.

I think we actually work hard at bringing our staff along with us. And that's a real leadership thing. You've got to get out there. You've got to get back to your relationships. You got to back to your other self. What you want that's school to be. Let me contact one and sell it. We got to convince them that what we're doing is the right thing. And you've got to bring the staff, take along with you.

What is the best way to 'get started' on the road to becoming a successful School Principal?

Phillip: It's different things for different people. But I probably have a conservative view that you need to have a grounding in the basics before you can take on a leadership role. That's somewhat at odds by the way with the military. The military training takes a young man or woman, puts them through intensive training at, say Duntroon. And they come out

after 18 or 20 months without knowing the philosophy and they lead people. But what a lieutenant in the Army has is a sergeant who's been around for 20 or 30 years, who they are told and trained to lean on extensively for support. In our system, we don't have that same support. In education we get thrust into it but frankly, we're not trained to do. I mean it has always been a great irony to me but the military that I've been caught up in the same amount of time as I have the education climate, is infinitely better at training people than the education department. Maybe that's the clue.

The military's about training. The education department is about education and the systems are different. The organization, the public effect's the same, has never in my view been through the training. The military, for example, trains everybody to do how to operate at the next level up. So if you're a lieutenant, you train to be a captain. Every lieutenant been trained to be a captain. Not everyone will get to be one, but they're all going to train to be one. If you're a captain, you will train to be a major, a major, and so on it goes. It's a pyramid. Not everyone gets there.

But in our game, in our job, people aren't being trained at all. Teachers have not been trained at all to be the head of a department. Head of the department's not trained to be a deputy or whatever the case might be. But I think you throw away some, even I could even now, that training has been pretty at fault. It's been pretty generalized, better than worn out, in particular. And I think that's been recognized the leaders of the department and the organization who set up the management, to manage it.

I guess I'm starting to, in a roundabout way coming to the point. Well, I reckon you have a ground in the basics. I think a successful school principal needs to have been a successful classroom teacher. I think you need to have been a successful middle leader of some sort, head of the department or program coordinator. And I think it's good that you have some experience as a deputy. But the point I'm making is I think you need to have the experience of the different jobs that a ... In a school and you'll need to do successfully because I bring that back to my previous point. It's very hard to bring staff along when we can't empathize with the staff and we can't see the issues that are confronting them.

And when indeed you can offer a strong advice is from direct to the staff have got a problem with this very complex job we've got. And I think that grounding in the basics is really important.


Phillip: Again this is a complex question that would vary from person to person. I think it depends to an extent on what natural skill set you bring with you. I do believe it is a natural leadership streak that some have got and others haven't. I think some people are better at working with people than others. I don't think our promotion system is necessarily ever got it right to pick their leaders at various levels of schools and I'm actually not blaming that

system for that because no organization that I'm aware of totally gets it right all the time. Although I will say that in the military there's a rigorous annual assessment process which wouldn't go down at all without a union because it's quite an honest assessment process that does enable people to, one, know their own strengths and weaknesses honestly and now you can do something about it in my view. You don't take offence at it, you do something about it. But it also is the evaluation demanded of the system. So the system can work out a range of reports over a period of time and form a fairly accurate picture about a person in the organization.

Now, we all know that there are biases and prejudices and so on. But my view is that if you're a person that three or four others over a period of time that have the ability the chances are that assessment is correct. And the military uses that all the time. It doesn't just promote from an interview, in fact it's a basic assessment system where with our system it is totally a different way.

The military uses that all the time. It does not just promote from interview.

So how long does it take to become proficient?

I think it is depends on the individuals. I think all jobs take a year or two to settle into.. I could probably be a little bit general and say it takes a year or two to settle into your job and I think you should be able to be successful pretty much from day one. Otherwise the world is going to slip past you. Our job now is so dynamic and changing. The system is so fast moving.


Phillip: Yes, I think they would. I have not actually given a lot of concrete advice but I think leadership is leadership. I have had a lot of experience in a couple of leadership areas explained to you and frankly, I think the principles apply to that as well.


Phillip: Look, I think you do need a little experience. People get up at different rates though. I had a traditional background in education. Youth coordinator, head of the department, classroom teacher, five years as deputy and thenfinally as principal. This is probably minimizes the old traditional way of merit select . I think though the experience that I had from both the military and education set me up well at least to understand that you need to plan your days.

I think those that get into jobs so quickly make mistakes and we can tolerate make mistakes but the sad thing is that mistakes can have an impact on education of that we're here for and then on the lives of the people becomes an issue.

I think a lot of top notch ideas get picked up by people who don't know enough to challenge the authority of our system. A few of us have been around the last 20 years and suffered, frankly, from mismanagement of change, curriculum framework, courses of study and experiences with middle school and so on.

And there's nothing wrong with any of those things. They're all good educational ideas. Except I think people who haven't gotten experience have jumped onto of the band wago. It doesn't mean to say I'm critical middle schooling. I'm not. I'm critical of people who accept it without understanding or without experience.

So I think you need the experience.

If you had one secret to give about being a successful School Principal what would it be?

Phillip: I'm going to go back to the point I made earlier. I think it's about relationships. I think you've got to work with people. I think you've got to respect people, be able to understand the people you work with, to recognize that you've got a bloody hard job to support them, to be firm when you have to be, to be decisive when you have to be. That basically, it is really about relationships.


Phillip: I guess as the head of department, the background I've had has always been about bringing leadership on. I've designed training programmes in the military, to bring people to the next level. But I've always, at whatever level of promotion I've been on, I've always tried to bring on the people beneath me to prepare them for the next level.

So when I was the head of the department there was a young bright teacher we had who was a natural leader, a bright educator. I did a lot of work with him providing advice.

I have to say though, I'm also going to qualify this, too. I'm not a great believer in patronage, I'm not great believer in the network that promotes itself to get yourself promoted in your job. I guess there's been a lot of that a lot of that around. There's been an element of who you know is as important as what you know in our system. Now, there's women's networks, there's men's networks; for all these jobs, they touch the surface, and I think that those can be quite damaging to an organization.

Having said that, I've obviously experienced enough to recognize that those things occur. I think we've got to be careful about us as leaders genuinely bringing someone on. I think that it's going to be a bit or who they may patronizing up through the system, regardless of their ability. I have seen people who have been, who got with their job largely because they know someone who could refer them, and they get the whole thing delivered for them.

So, I think what I've done is, I've never wanted to take a person on, until I've screened them for the job. And just my view is, I will. The people I work with, I will provide leadership training to them, whether it's formal or informal. I will counsel the people I work with, I will tell people who I work with, if they're not doing the right thing, eventually.

That would be the case at the school I'm in now, where I will work with my deputies, to provide advice about direction, to provide counsel on what I think they're doing. I'm lucky enough to have really good people. I've recently realized that they tend to be developing quite right and so on.

And that's been the case, whether I was at Lockridge Senior High School, where I was working with a couple of really good deputies, who became friends of mine, who became very good leaders.

Well, these are young people, who I actually got into the youth network. Again, it just depends on how you do it, because it's my role is that the youth network is for a young teacher, because it's the right way for them in school.

So, I guess they are examples of people -- and I believe it's leaders at all levels, whatever level of leadership you're at -- you're going to have a level of obligation to talk about leadership, to talk about management, with the people below you.

You have to get through effectively, and have a bit of partnership with the people of leadership, with everyone, and with every department, focus on the motives. You have to have a principal working at your side, and you have to have a level of obligation there.


Phillip: I think one of the traps that we've have is trying to do too much for people. I think that a lot of our workforce now associate any new ideas as being good or bad, because there have been so many ideas that have been put forth. And they just have been, frankly, badly implemented at all levels, whether they haven't been provided the support or time, or whatever the case might be. So, I think one of the problems that a leader can have is trying to either size up more than they can truly match up to people actually assigned to do that they're doing. And I think that's something that we're always willing to do. So, realize; I'm the last one to say, by the way, that we shouldn't be trying to make a difference. But, we've got to give the reference to our workforce, in order for it to work.

I say that, given that our workforce deserves a say. They're our people who have given a bit and stay involved. I think it's been effective. There comes a point of course where my advice to that person at that level is, "You've had a great few years. Maybe it's time for you, if you can't reinvent yourself, that you go ahead and leave."

But nonetheless, I think that is the reason that we've been effective at that. So, I think that's one of the common problems that you find is, jumping in too quickly and making a mess.

I think another one is not recognizing that the most valuable group that we have is our teachers. I know that it's our students, its organization that's got to be right, but you can't have a student and its organization that doesn't have staff on board with them. So, I think the rhetoric about students there is good, but in the end I think our staff, because they've got to look after them, they might be good looking after the students, and that can be a challenge in itself too.

So I think the tip I would always give for a new principal, a new leader at any school, who's, you know, don't jump in on day one and change it all. Jump in on day one and get out and know the people, get people on board, do an invite, do a scan, look at what's going well, what's not going well, talk to people, get the view of people.

You'll probably find that most people, in the end, can see the same things that you can see, and that they know that this isn't working well or that is. And then, I come back to my earlier point about what you need to be successful: you bring people on board with it. If something's not working, get people on board, and it'll happen. If you don't, it's far from what you're ever going to get.


Phillip: Look, the thing I like, I enjoy the most, look, I just love schools. I love students, I love being able to walk around the school and, you know, have kids say, "Hi, Mr. White." Or, I say something to a kid and they say, "How are you? How's your day?" I really love to engage with the students, I think students, kids, children are bright, they really are. So I really like the interaction that we can have with the student population. I like the feeling of a school when it's scheduled, when everyone's happy, when the students are basically on task, they're enjoying what they're doing, and the staff is basically happy to come to work and so on.

And, you know, that's what we truly needed to do. I'm lucky enough at Melville to be in a very good school. The student population is a good group of kids. The staff are a good group of staff. So, it's a much easier environment for me to be in than it might be in other schools. Having said that, every school has got its own view.

The problem is with what and who they are. So, I suppose the highlight, what the highlight to me revolves around is the breakthrough that a school can generate, students that have really started that, that have been engaged and willing.


Phillip: I think education, teaching, and principals and teachers, it's about having a young mindset. I say that teaching is a young person's game. Now, some might misconstrue that to mean that I think that you have to be chronologically young. Well, that's not the case. I think you have to be young in mind. I think you've got to keep your brain, and like it, in order to do it. I think you need to do it with duty. I think you just need to be passionate. I think you need to show people, and this is effectively leadership.

I mean we're talking about showing people; it doesn't mean in life you don't have a private life. It means that you have to show people that you care. So, I think the key to staying successful is to stay engaged, to stay youthful, stay passionate.

How can current Principals and / or educators aspiring to become successful School Principals contact you?

Phillip: They can either email me on [email protected] They could contact me at the school. I'm more than happy to talk to anyone about leadership. It's been something that, frankly, I've been in leadership roles in middle schools and education for as long as I've been an adult. So, I have my own views on it. My views are much more practical than academic. I have a master's in education and management, so I know that there's a long lifespan of leadership stuff. I have my own strong views, and it's all about leadership by example. It's about doing things that will be picked up, not doing something that's...

It's not asking others to do something that you wouldn't do yourself on your own. And people are working together to do it.

Andrew: Thank you, Phillip, for sharing your experiences, thoughts and expertise.

So ends another in the series, "What It Takes To Be A Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary." Until next this time, this is Andrew Belotti signing off, and remember, Let Your Spirit Run Free.

GRAHAM DART PRINCIPAL BEACONSFIELD PRIMARY

Andrew Belotti: Good morning everyone. This is Andrew Belotti with another in the series, "What it Takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary." It's a Thursday morning in mid-July and I'm sitting with Mr. Graham Dart, Principal of Beaconsfield Primary School, a school of four hundred and forty children and a staff of fifty to fifty five. Beaconsfield Primary School is located in the suburb of the City of Fremantle. Mr Dart has kindly agreed to be interviewed for the continuing series, "What it Takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary."

Mr. Dart, what is so good about being a School Principal?

Graham Dart: I still get to be a teacher. I went into teaching because I, it's you know, I have always felt natural about that and I'll talk about that a bit later, but being a school principal enabled me to get, to be involved with all classes, all students and get to have a strong interaction with their families, which I find very rewarding. It's great being able to assist and coach staff with new ideas that pretty much make up the whole school I've been in. We have to remember teachers are very creative, hard working people, who, when supported, are able to and do achieve amazing things. At our school we're lucky enough to have a sister school in Bali where the small number and students and staff are working hard with the Indonesian staff to bring about better outcomes for their students as well. This is a passion which they have which I've been able to jump on board with and been able to support in my position as principal.

Another great thing about being principal, you're able to build a better community that reflects the values of those who are a part of the community. You have to listen, be a part of that and take on what the parents wish, and expect to help build and provide a better community that reflects the values of those who are a part of the community. And to do this you've got to hear what their needs are, what their wants are and be able to put into plan and action those things that will bring about that outcome for them. You can make a big difference to a lot of people, the children and families.

It's a very rewarding profession and it's also a very honorable profession.

Why don't you give us a little background about how you became involved in education and your road to becoming a successful School Principal?

Graham: I was drawn to teaching because I love sports and I thought it'd be great to spend my working days playing. I trained as a primary school teacher with a major in physical education, and that was, education. As I told you, with my career as they are, I only taught P.E. for about two years. I started working with the Catholic Education Service down in southwest of Western Australia. After a bit of touring and sighting and travelling with my

wife, we then moved to the northwest of Western Australia to gain permanency. I eventually came back to the city where I started teaching as a year seven teacher for a number of years. I was in a fortunate position that the principal there retired soon after and I was asked to take on the role of acting deputy principal. After, that sort of put me on the road to administration. It gave me a taste for it. And I then applied for a number of jobs everywhere in city and country unsuccessfully. I just couldn't crack the nut but I suppose I didn't give up with it because I did have a passion with it and I believed and I was told I was able to do a good job of doing it.

A lot of things went into this. After a lot of barriers, or trials and challenges, I finally did win a job and it was in the city. I did get the position. I was deputy principal. I was there for six months and the principal had to take leave and I fell into the role of principal and I loved it. It was great to be able to see how the influence that a person can have. Great I guess for me to just to see, what sort of influence you can have on a school and on a staff.

The staff, I was able to bring the staff together and we really started to grow the school. There was a lot of enthusiasm and energy happening around the place. What went on from there is that job had to be advertised according to our public sector standards and I applied for that job and didn't get it. I was very, very disappointed.

But it did take me to another school, where I was an acting principal. It was a very tough school. There was a lot, it was in a low social economic area, lots of social, education and emotional challenges. I was able then to apply for that. Had the opportunity to apply for that as a standard position and learn that.


Graham: I did actually get it down to about four, and really there could be five, but, I suppose number one is the ability to listen and that's without judgment. And I'll make a quick mention here and I hope that it's OK, of Steven Covey and his seven Principles. His line of thinking and what he encourages with you, developing your relationships and leadership. He has been quite an influence for me. So the ability to listen and without judgment, number one. But to always remember, you may be the principal and might pretty walk around and say, "Hey buck", and that sort of thing, but you have to always remember that, you are, you are working for the children. The children, the staff, and the families. So, I think this means you're the one who is responsible and can get through some, it can ease back their life. But you are the hard work. You like working to help everyone else.

You talk about knowledge. You need to know your policies. You might know everything about your policies, but ... And you also need to have the ability, you have to have the knowledge of knowing when to ask. Ask for advice and listen to that as well. Consult and making the decisions, grab by the ears and develop them. Let others play with your ideas

and trust them to grow things into better ideas. By doing this you'll have a better idea, a better plan, and it'll be ownership of the plan.

But in the end, an intuitive, adequate principal who makes the decision will have to make a decision and be responsible for it. You also hit me to demonstrate and I suppose it's sort of quite like ... You need to demonstrate compassion. Everyone's situation is different, everyone's needs are different, and that's just the unique of the, who listens to reason and responds to those needs.


Graham: Take on leadership roles within that school. Be seen to be a leader, be a curriculum leader, be enthusiastic, and be energetic. I can do this. Offer to take on a, to lead a committee. Offer to write a plan and lead a team that implements that plan. By doing that, demonstrate again, enthusiasm, being energetic. You need to, you do need a bit of charisma to bring people on. Let people know that you want to take responsibility and let them know you want an opportunity. You need to say it. You need to tell people what your aims and goals are.


Graham: I'm sure I'll get some responses. How long is a piece of string? Education is changing all the time. As principal, or as a personal goal, you need to change and grow constantly. In our world, you can be seen as proficient and successful in one year and be out of flavour the next if you don't keep updated.


Graham: Having any lid in an organization ... There is a school, I can't say in other sectors. But I can't see how not being a good listener and respond accordingly, according to the needs, the school needs or the business needs or the goal of a company, that you wouldn't be in a good place. But you need to know, what, you need to have ... You need to know what you're on about, you need to have the background knowledge, you need to show the expertise that's typical of a leader within the organization. More skills have been recognized by other people outside of education, or they knock the goals. In business, which we couldn't with schools, but we had to choose. I've displayed some in my role, which has been seen probably by the students later.


Graham: I find my great peers that the role of principal will one day be seen that as a business manager. Manage a school is one thing, to lead a school is something that is another thing altogether. To be a successful school principal, you must be a successful past teacher. You have to know about teaching, you have to know and understand the

specialities that teachers have and feel in the classroom. You have to be able to understand and relate to the students. You need to understand that they are, relate to the pressures, and the fear that's in other students and parents have. As principal, you are the lead teacher.

You must demonstrate and you are the lead learner and be showing, and be able to demonstrate growth and be willing to change and take, well, learn how to be a better educator. You've got to walk the talk in order to have any credibility. You don't have to be the best teacher but you have to be better than many. That way you have credibility with staff and they will understand, they'll know that you understand what their experience is.

You have to have knowledge of policy and the experience to rely on that policy. It's one thing knowing the policies are there, but it's another thing of knowing them to, or falling back on them and to let these people see you adhere to it because so many things happen in a school that it's very easy to get carried away with some, which reminds...with the stuff that's going on, I suppose it to have that.

It has to be remembered that experience isn't measure in years in the job, it's what a person does and how they deal with that, how to equip that person to the numerous situations that will arise in a school day that they go through.


Graham: Not specifically, I can't. What we have done, I suppose my latest solemn and motto is, 'by doing leads to demonstration leads to expectation'. At this current school, when I arrived there were issues amongst the staff as though it was personal stuff. So leading through my advice I did develop a staff ethos statement, sort of a, which reflected what I believe and hopefully others on the staff also agreed with that listening and trying to patch over were very important parts of being a good staff member. Putting in words that we expected the best of each other, we accepted that everyone has difference and everyone has something to offer. So I suppose there's an example of leading through example and bringing people on board with that. And it has added significantly to the culture of the staffing and to the school. I suppose pre-counseling is one of, is definitely a principle and some tunnel vision, and when I say that focused and driven teachers.

Sometimes they take it as I have deduced that their way is the right way and through emphasis with counseling and also demonstration they see that taking in other people's point of views and taking on their needs can still bring us to the same point with a much better outcome. When it comes to aggressive staff and the surly ones whose response to confrontation is to bite back harder, it is again through counseling and through demonstration knowing that the best way to meet, well it is what I believe, the best way to meet that type of aggression is with reconciliation.


Graham: With this one, there's not one point again, because and I don't believe that some of these things are secrets, I think it's what people expect in methods and having been seen as common sense. I think it makes another point first that I'm reflecting on those, I thought the most important one was you need to always remember that your family and your health is important and maintain, and I suppose without doing it in a selfish way, you need to put those needs ahead of all things. Following that you need to prioritize your students. The thing, and I know that this isn't only one secret but it's a list of secrets, prioritize your students. Be seen to be prioritizing your students. Be seen by staff and be seen by parents. And actually in fact students are number one and students will, you know if they're actually at your door, you'll see them ahead of other people. Reflecting back on the other things, listen, consult and act with all your decision making.

Keep up to date with current educational issues and methods that way you're going to maintain your credibility with your teaching staff. And if you're lucky enough to have a high performing staff which I do, which I've been able to do, that is crucially important. And I suppose, I don't know, if modesty is the number one secret but keep going in classrooms and in the playground all the administration can be done when the children leave. It's important to be seen by parents' lifestyles, what students, the available student... to have them have the opportunity to speak with you about whatever they want to.


Graham: To me, my biggest issues and problems are at time management. Being able to fit everything in, within ... And also, trying to be true to yourself and to your family. So time management of what's urgent and what's important, issues that come across the desk every day. The supporting of staff, and the managing of staff needs, takes a considerable amount of time. And any complaints management. Which also, you gain some problems with your own endorse people, because you are available to parents and to staff. And that gives the opportunity for them to speak with you, but it also then, can give them the opportunity to make work for you. But, as to dealing with things small, deal with them now. That usually got small, and I will take small matters up.


Graham: As I alluded to earlier on, when I went to my first principalship, I was able to stay there for two-and-a-half years. What was great, but what I found very rewarding with that is, the head at staff and the school community that was tight, for want of a better word, a much better word. But with everything you do plodding along ... It was a modern 80's, but fairly worth the hydro-electrodes that were happening around the place. That team, able to engender a bit of enthusiasm in the students, create a bit of a vibrant atmosphere. First day,

my staff were... It was a fun place to come and work. And it was a productive place to come and work. We were... seemed to be a team effort, which made the students happy to be at school. Which then brought the two other parents back into the school, and wanting to contribute. That was sort of building a bit of a community, and I've found that to be very, very rewarding.

But, the place, that the most rewarding experience I've had so far is working at... I'm actually at another school that was in a very low economic area. It had a lot of dysfunctional families. Children were coming to school not in a position, or not in a state of mind, not ready to learn. Parents weren't behind the school, and the fact is, that the community was not supporting the school at all.

And then started to build up over a number of years a pride in the school, a pride in the suburb. Having visiting members of Parliament, having the positive local council. They came and helped out and contributed to the school. It was fantastic.

We started a breakfast club which was staffed entirely by volunteers. So, we had parents. Initially, it would start off with two days a week. We'd monitor whose parents came in. And we had to watch the parents come, because their enthusiasm was so strong. And just seeing that community grow into such a good, networks that not only enrich students, but also the parents who've ... Extremely rewarding.

We have to remember that, as I believe, schools are central to communities, not central to the suburbs, and as such, can be great. The communities are putting out a very strong, positive message to everyone who lives in that community.


Graham: Continue to have a passion for making the schools a better place for children to learn, and take the families to make, how to do that. Be open, and be welcoming, encouraging staff to be welcoming and open as well. We have to always remember that we, although we do a serious job, and that makes little, we shouldn't take our jobs too seriously. And I'll say that we have to take a stand. We want, we need to have staff, and we need to let students want to come to school. And in that, when they're at school, we need to make sure they're engaged, and enjoy its activities. So I suppose... enjoy your job, and enjoy the people you work with.

How can current principals, or educators aspiring to become successful school principals, contact you?

Graham: e-mail or through personal contact on the telephone. I'll be sure to contact you.

Andrew: Thank you, Graham. It has been a pleasure and a very enjoyable experience for me to have shared this time together. Again, I have no doubt that any aspiring principals who listened to your responses would have gained much from your thoughts and experiences.

So ends another in the series, "What It Takes To Be A Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary." Until next time, this is Andrew Belotti, signing off and remember to Let Your Spirit Run Free.

ANDREW SYME HEADMASTER SCOTCH COLLEGE

Good afternoon everyone. This is Andrew Belotti with another in the series, "What It Takes To Be A Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary." It's a Wednesday afternoon in the final days of July and I'm sitting with the Reverend Andrew Syme, Headmaster of Scotch College, a school of approximately 1100 boys and a staff of 160. Scotch College is located in Swanbourne, a suburb of the city of Perth. Reverend Syme has kindly agreed to be interviewed for the continuing series, "What It Takes To Be A Successful School Principal, Primary or Secondary."

Reverend Syme, what is so good about being a School Principal, a school Headmaster?

Reverend Syme: Thanks, Andrew. I'd say the first and perhaps the most important thing is just seeing change in opportunity for young people. Wherever you are and whatever district you are, making change so that young people benefit. That the individual boys and girls have an opportunity to change and grow and mature and prepare themselves for a greater society. I think that's the most important thing about the school principalship. Perhaps the two that go with that is what's so great about working in schools is the energy of young people that, actually being in a school isn't a job that you just come to and work at a desk because you're actually surrounded by young people who are often, not always, but often hopeful and see opportunity in life and so that's an energizing experience for those of us who've been in employment for thirty years.

Perhaps the final thing that's good is that you actually get to learn about structural change and organization. So, it's not just about the focus on the young people, but principals also have to deal with adults, some who've been in jobs a long time and all the things about structural change and the organizational development are also critical to the role of principal.

Can you give us a little background about how you became involved in education and your road to becoming a successful School Principal, a successful School Headmaster?

Reverend Syme: You know, my story is different from many in the sense that ... well, firstly, I became a teacher having applied into a lecturer of economics. It was actually one of my teachers at school, a physical education teacher who was really a mentor of mine, who pulled me aside and said, very wisely, that I'd hate sitting in an office so I'd be frankly no good at it and he was right. And why wouldn't I be a teacher? I liked people, I was good at sport and coached me to be a teacher. I changed my preferences, did my teaching degree, in fact at that stage it was very rare to have a degree aside of a diploma, transferred that into a degree. About eight to ten years into that, I felt a call to ministry and that I was going to be a local parish minister on the tablelands in New South Wales. But, at the end of my theology degree, the church felt that, given my experience, that I should go and work as a Chaplin in line with church school.

And so I went and became a Chaplin and I was approached to become a deputy and now I'm the Headmaster of Scotch and since that I've completed my Master's of Education. So, it's been really, I'm here in a dual role, I suppose, of being an honorary church minister as well as Headmaster of Scotch.


Reverend Syme: I think above everything else you've got to like people. It's a demanding job and it's such an obvious thing but frankly, sometimes something that is missed. You've actually got to like people, you've got to like children, you've got to like adults, you've got to like families and want to be with them. And if you're the sort of person who wants to really just work in an office, disconnected, the principal's role isn't for you. The second and I think a very complicated issue that you probably don't know until you're exposed to it, is you've got to have a capacity for vision, difference and change. If you want to be a principal, you've actually got to be able to articulate what it is you bring to the role and what difference you bring in the role is going to make the children, not just to the structure. It's certainly not to the hardware, but to actually the lives of children. You have to have a capacity to see life differently.

And then thirdly or a second part of that is the capacity to actually create that change that can enable people, teachers. Education generally is notoriously conservative. So, you have to have a capacity to actually vision it differently and work with the cultural and conservative environment to actually make the change happen.

And the third is you've actually got to be passionate about, that education is a fundamental difference for change. You know, we've just been through the experience of NAIDOC week and working with our indigenous boys. If you don't believe that education is the vertical bow which changes created for our indigenous community and indeed for students generally, you're not worthy of the role.


Reverend Syme: I teach and I talk to my staff about being deliberate about this. And yet my own experience is that it happens almost by accident. And it's a funny, unusual mixture of being attentive to want to take opportunities when they arrive. Being deliberate, you've got to have, in our system, you've got to have your Master's Degree really to take senior positions. But, the question is, what's the one thing to do? And above everything else, you've got to a good teacher. All the research about the things that makes a difference to outcomes of students is the best schools have good teachers, focused on the outcomes of students and the principals job is to resource and encourage that to live and not there to run an office. They're not there to shuffle paper. They're there to help teachers teach. And that's what makes the difference in the classroom, that's where all the difference is made.

So, a principal has to understand teaching from the inside. They have to value teaching, they have to be good at it themselves and they would have to want to help teachers teach.

How long has it take to become proficient at being a successful School Principal?

Reverend Syme: I've just written simply a lifetime here. What's remarkable about teaching in the principalship is that while you do see patterns that will emerge in the school, by and large no day is like the day before. And I'm constantly surprised at people. This is a human organization with all the strengths and foibles of human people. So, you're constantly being surprised at new ways people have found to both confound you and surprise you and bring you joy. And it takes a lifetime of that. To think that I've been now principal for 13 years and about to start my second Headship next year. One thing, I can be sure, is it will be like I am starting again.


Reverend Syme: No, probably not. The one thing that drives leadership, it's reflected in a lot of the literature, is it has to begin with the knowledge of your own self and who you are. Being genuine to your own understanding of yourself is the place on which everything else is built. So it's not a matter of systems or rules or guidelines, everything comes from one's own knowledge and value of yourself. Strengths and weaknesses, and particularly the weaknesses of you being.


Reverend Syme: I've been fortunate and it hadn't been deliberate, but by the time I was principal, I'd been a head of department, head of year, which is a major pastoral care role, I'd been a chaplain and I'd been a deputy. It is helpful to know, and done the job in other things, to know what it's like to take other roles. And because I've done my stint as a young teacher in the country, which is about the best grounding I think you can ever get for later office, because you're just given opportunities, because the experience isn't there. That's, I think, a fundamental, that people know, and that you know, that you've done other jobs.


Reverend Syme: My advice isn't to follow formulas. My advice is to help people find their own strengths, so my current executive and a number of heads and principals that I work with now, it's not about me giving advice as to how to do things, what's more important is helping people find their strengths and what they're really good at, working that harder and finding ways to cover their weaknesses. So look, I think all my current executives would say they've grown in the role, and certainly I see that. The people I'm working with in headship, I don't name wish to name them because I don't think that's appropriate, but it's about helping people grow into their roles by understanding themselves and understanding their

strengths. Always in leadership, you maximize your strengths and you minimize your weaknesses. You minimize your weaknesses by getting people who are better at than you, where you're weak, and get them around you.

The worst mistake principals make, keep that in mind, is to find people who are like them, and filling their executive teams, or their senior leadership teams, with people who are like them. It's the worst mistake to make. What you need is people who are different to you, to cover your weaknesses. You have to know those weaknesses, and be deliberate in covering them, so that you've got a rich team of difference that then leads the school.


Reverend Syme: Know yourself and value yourself. You've got to have a deep capacity to know yourself, know your strengths, know your weaknesses and be able to articulate those and grow teams around you.


Reverend Syme: Principals are notoriously time poor. They're demanding jobs, because they're human rich organizations. People like people, and want to be with people, and that takes a tremendous amount of time, so principals are constantly time poor, schools are also, because we grow through systems, and we're not trained managers, are often overly micro managed. Micro management is a common problem within the sector, because very few people have been trained to have people round them to help them understand management in a different way. Secondly, I think the other thing is that without that management, be able to articulate a vision. And often, schools fall in the habit of being people-led, rather than mission-led. By that I mean, it's clarity of the mission that makes people excited. While people like to follow a good leader, it's often not that that inspires people, it's the idea or the vision or the mission of the school that's the thing that will make people excited. Learning how to do that is the most critical aspect that is not done well, I think.

What have been your highlights, your rewards in being a successful School Principal, a successful School Headmaster?

Reverend Syme: Coming to the end of 13 years in this appointment at the end of the year, it's starting to be a period where I look back to see what's happened. I think there are two elements to that. One, you want to see that you've created an environment that is as best you can, as rich an environment as you can for children, and that you've done that with some integrity, and that's the first. Second, if you're lucky, people's lives are different because you were part of it, and to see people's lives different, because you were there, I think is the greatest element that being a principal can be. If you're lucky, then you can

actually see society change too. It's not just then about individual people, but if we're brave, and if we've been brave and if we've been given opportunity, structures and systems, not just in the school, but beyond that, because of the influence of education.


Reverend Syme: I think the secret to a successful longevity in the role particularly, is a capacity continually to reinvent yourself. So, genuinely to be a learner in a learning environment, you don't get here with all the tools at day one. So, what's remarkable about the headship and the principal-ship is that you've got to constantly reinvent yourself, because as you change the school, it needs you to be different in different ways. One of the things that I've seen is that a key element to the principal-ship is the capacity of the principal for themselves to change, as they change the environment. The notion that you are unchanged in the system is a sure element to failure, quickly.

How can current principals, and/or educators aspiring to become successful School Principals, contact you?

Reverend Syme: One of the things that's great about our sector, and I mean independent, Catholic and government sectors, principals by and large are generous, because they like people. So usually phone calls to people asking for help, knowing what they want, is a way that certainly I and others can be of service to others..

Andrew: Thank you Andrew. It has been a pleasure and a very enjoyable experience for me to have listened to your opinions on leadership experiences. I found myself pumping the air externally and internally with many of the things that you've said. I've no doubt that any aspiring principal who has been lucky enough to have heard your responses will have gained much from your thoughts.

So ends another in the series, "What It Takes To Be A Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary." Until next time, this is Andrew Belotti signing off, and remember to, Let Your Spirit Run Free.

STEFFAN SILCOX PRINCIPAL BALLAJURA COMMUNITY COLLEGE

Good afternoon everyone. This is Andrew Belotti with another in the series, "What it takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary". It's a Tuesday afternoon in mid August and I am sitting with Dr. Steffan Silcox principal of Ballajura Community College, a school of approximately 1800 students and a staff of over 200. Ballajura Community College is located in Ballajura in the northern suburbs of the city of Perth. Dr. Silcox has kindly agreed to be interviewed for the continuing series, "What it takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary".

Dr. Silcox, what is so good about being a School Principal?

Steffan: Thank you very much for this opportunity Andrew, to talk with you. Really I do appreciate talking about education at anytime. What's so good about being a school principal? The opportunity that it gives to you to make a difference to people's lives. I have the opportunity over a number of years. I've had 38 years now with the Education Department. And in that 38 years I think I've had the opportunity to influence the educational journey of a number of people. And many of them have gone on to very successful educational outcomes and successful roles in society.

So I would suggest to you that making a difference is the most important thing to me about being a school principal.


Steffan: I think it was always in the blood Andrew. Right from an early age in primary school I enjoyed playing schools and being a school teacher. Pretending to be a school teacher. I was very fortunate in the late sixties to have won a scholarship with the Education Department. A teacher bursary. And that put me through university and what I required at university and from then on I've had a fantastic opportunity with the Education Department. I had 19 principalships with the education department to 19 locations around Western Australia. So I got to see the state and enjoyed every moment of it. There were no regrets.


Steffan: The first one is passion for what you are doing. If you've got a passion for teaching then it comes through and people can see that you are sincere about what you are trying to achieve. Secondly it's about relationships and good communication. If you can mix that passion with developing a vibrant and engaging learning environment then it becomes quite

exciting for the kids and as a consequence of that you can make a difference. Third thing to be a successful school principal I would suggest is the understanding of what real leadership is about and leadership is not about the status of the position. Leadership is about working with people to achieve a common outcome. I want to be a leader of leaders not a leader of followers and as far I am concerned a good leader creates the environment where other people can lead. So I am very strong in my belief that a good principal is a person that is willing to delegate, is willing to trust and respect.

That no one comes to a school in the morning with the deliberate intention of stuffing up. Everyone comes to try and do their best. Yes, as educators we do make mistakes occasionally. But we learn from those mistakes. And a good school principal I think can roll with the punches, and is a leader of leaders and encourages that succession within the staff.

He encourages teacher leadership within the classroom, conveys a sense of commitment to excellence in the learning and teaching process - and as you hear I use learning first and teaching second, so it's learning and teaching process - that passion that you have for education comes through in the classrooms and that good schools are underpinned by good relationships between teachers and students.


Steffan: It's interesting because my doctorate, Andrew, was done in an area like this to try and identify and distill those very aspects of what successful school principals exhibit and one of the things that comes across is there are certain behaviors, certain traits, certain risk willingness I call it, when opportunities present themselves to be able to take those opportunities to develop your school, and develop educational programs to meet a changing world, and to be change proficient in terms of... The best way, Andrew, to get started on the road to becoming a successful school principal is to identify what you see as successful school leadership or successful leadership in schools, and to work shadow, to study closely the traits that that person has, the way that they operate, the behaviors that they exhibit, the way that they interact with others; to seek their mentorship in helping you develop; to let the others know of what your aspirations are in terms of leadership.

Sometimes people sit in the classroom for ages and come out and say, "I wish I had been a school leader". If you let your aspirations know, good leaders will encourage other leaders to come along.

The best way to get started is to identify good leadership and what you stand for as an education leader. What are your principles? What are your values as an educationalist? Once you have clarified those, once you have clarified the objectives that you wish to achieve in terms of leadership, then to pursue those and to pursue those through continued study, through, like I indicated, mentoring, seeking mentor opportunities, and also accepting

leadership opportunities when you are given the opportunity to take those leadership opportunities.

Andrew: How long does it take to become proficient at being a successful school principal?

Steffan: I've had the privilege now of being a school principal for 37 years. I had my first principalship when I was 12 months into the role of a teacher. I hope at that stage that, I was a proficient school principal. I think you become more informed with time. I think also that school leaders need to be intuitive, that there are some aspects of leadership that are intuitive and over time that intuition becomes more and more informed through practice. I think to become a successful school principal you need to know very clearly what you are about and if you realize the primacy of pedagogy, if you realize the primacy of learning and your role in ensuring a quality learning environment, if you never lose sight of the fact that you are about working with students to achieve the highest that they can while holding high expectations for them, if you never lose sight of those as your goals, I think you will become a very successful school principal.

Will your methods or advise work in any area and for anyone?

Steffan: Most definitely. One of the things that I am very proud of or one of the programs that I was very proud of is in 2000 I instituted a program called Aspire which is to help encourage other leaders to develop within the department. That won the Premier's award for people management. And the Aspire program was inherently, was underpinned by the belief that with proper succession planning you could develop quality school leaders. By providing them with appropriate professional learning opportunities. By providing them with mentors in their various activities and by helping them to develop the traits and the qualities that you anticipate in a successful school environment.

Every school environment is a unique environment. And what you need ... some of the qualities that you need in understanding that uniqueness. I think is that you've got to be adaptable. You've got to be risk willing, you've got to try different things. You need look at ways to engage the community, to engage students in different ways at times.

You need to play on the uniqueness, build on that. But at all times maintaining values of excellence, respect and your integrity. And one of the things that I hope that people will look in terms of my leadership. As a legacy of my own leadership. Is that I've always behaved ethically. Because at the base of every decision I've made it has been about enhancing student outcome, student learning.

Not only in the academic domain but also in the effective domain. In terms of their values and they way that they approach their learning and as a way that they see learning as a doorway to the future.


Steffan: It depends on the size of school. To throw someone in the deep end of a large senior high school, which is a very complex organization. With leadership at various levels is difficult. I can only go on my own personal experience. I was very lucky I started off in a one-teacher school then went to a three-teacher school. So I taught primary, at District High's secondary. I think I'm the only educationalist who has been in every level of school in the Education Department of Western Australia. I started off in a Level Four school. I had a Level Three school at Borden. Went to a District High School as a school leader. Ended up in Wyndham District High School.

And then back down to Perth to a large primary school in Perth. Then to ... I did many years there, 14 years as a Superintendent, a district director. Then picked up Ballajura Senior High School. So what I have been able to do is as the schools have got more complex develop more skills in terms of developing my understanding of the role of a school principal and I have learnt a lot. If I had known what I know now when I was first out I would have run some cracker schools.

So what experience do you need? You pick it up as you go. But a good school principal is always open to new ideas. You realize that you don't have all the answers. That as you progress through time you look for good ideas, you adapt those to suit your personality style. But it's an experiential thing. That it develops over time. That school principal's evolve. A good school principal evolves with time in various roles.

Can you provide some real life examples of other people who have followed your advise in field of education?

Steffan: At this stage in the Education Department of Western Australia, Andrew, I think there are over 100 principals in schools in Western Australia that I have appointed or been on panels that have appointed. I am proud of the fact that I have been able to mentor and encourage that number of principals. I believe that I have their respect and also respect them for what they were able to demonstrate to me in terms of their leadership potential. I have not been disappointed with what I have seen from the principals that I've had a role in helping develop.

Real life examples there are many. Some of the people that I mentored have gone on and are now district directors. Some are principals of major senior high schools in Western Australia. There are many, many primary principals that are out there, across Western Australia. That I know, have worked with or have appointed.

And so real life examples of having people who have followed my advice there are many. And they are alive and well in schools in Western Australia.

If you had one secret to give about being a successful school principal what would it be?

Steffan: Learn to delegate Andrew. Learn to delegate. The fact is that you are not the fount of all knowledge. That as a good school leader you need to be informed and you need to establish good communication style with the people that you work it. People in the school that I am at will tell you that I don't suffer fools readily. That's probably a behavior trait that is at times gets me into a lot of trouble. But one secret I would indicate would be, keep your mind open. Don't close your mind to new ideas. Be change ready. We're in a life of constant change in schools. National curriculum coming on the same. We just had course of study changes. Many, many changes in terms of curriculum over the years. Not all of them successful by the way.

But you have to adapte and be change ready. So risk willing, change ready. Have a proclivity toward change. Be ready and willing to delegate. Keep your mind open.

What are some of the problems that people experience in their role as a successful School Principal?

Steffan: The role at sometimes is very isolating and sometimes hard decisions have to be made and you have to weigh up all the information that you have. The resources that you have available to you. The issue that is confronting you at the time and sometimes you do need to make the hard decisions and sometimes people have a problem making that hard decision. Sometimes such decisions don't win you friends. But you're not out there to not make the decisions. The buck does stop with you in the school and some people find that very difficult to accommodate.

Learning in the principal's position when you have that type of decision to make can be quite debilitating. Other people issues would have to be the most significant you're dealing with. Very difficult. From real-life experiences, I would indicate to you that the hardest issues that I deal with, as a school principal, where I have encountered or I'm dealing with, issues relating to child abuse. I find that very hard. I cannot understand why anyone would want to abuse a child and I find those kind of issues, as a principal, I find quite emotional at times, and quite draining on me as a person.

So, common problems as a successful school principal? One would be the loneliness of the job. The other one is time. There is so much call upon a principal's time and if you really care about the learning and teaching program, if you're in the classes, supporting the teachers on a regular basis, if you're out there in your community, and communicating high expectations to the community about students, and the way that their learning and their learning programs need to be supported, if you're continually doing that well, then the day-to-day administrivia that comes in, the report writing, et cetera, can take a lot of your time, and well into many, many evenings.

So time constraints is another of the significant issues. Those two, I think, are the most difficult.


Steffan: Get a balance in your life, that there is a life outside of school. To stay successful as a successful school principal, you need to keep your mind alert and you need to be fresh. Every day, you need to be fresh. When you're greeting kids, when you're greeting staff, you need to be on your mettle. And to stay a successful school principal, I think you need to ensure that you have that balance right. I think, further, that you need to look at targeted professional learning opportunities, network opportunities, when they present themselves. Interact with your colleagues where you can. Share your experiences. Share your ideas. I'm very fortunate, in a school of my size, with 260 teaching and non-teaching staff, that I have a number of school leaders.

I have, I hope, 260-plus school leaders in my school. In terms of department structures and leadership categories, I have many heads of department. I have some vice principals and with them it's very easy to discuss and to share experiences and to seek a collective viewpoint on an issue and to address an issue.

I enjoy a regime of reading, a significant reading program. You have a look at current books. I'm tired of going to professional learning activities where 1980 and research of a dated nature is continually put forward as being current research. People are forgetting to have a look that we've got a lot of stuff coming out, 2009, 2010 publications. So it's keeping abreast of what's coming out in ideas, reading and being aware of what's out there in the professional sphere.

What have been your highlights, your rewards in being a successful School Principal?

Steffan: Andrew, this one's an easy one to answer. And some of these questions you've asked have been quite difficult. This one's easy. When you look at the difference that you make in a students learning journey that gives you the greatest thrill. And I'll tell you right now the most emotional, the greatest kick that I get out in my present role is when I stand on the stage in Winthrop Hall at the University of Western Australia and we graduate 250-260, Year 12's a year. So it's big cohort of kids. When I stand on that stage and each of those students, dressed in their black robe and their sash walk across that stage to get their certificate of graduation that is a tremendous thrill for me because I've been part of their learning journey for six years in this school.

So as they walk across I see people that came into my school as Year 7's and I see them leaving as Year 12's and as young adults. Going into the world. We've had 100 percent graduation for five years. And looks like we're going to be successful again this year.

A 100 percent graduation of our Year 12 cohort. All those students who want to go to University, offered University places. All those who want to go to Tafe or into employment. When I have a look on their faces ready to go into the new chapter of their life and knowing that I have been a part of their learning journey to enable that to happen, that is better than anything that you could say.

Emotionally I find that a tear jerking evening. Saying goodbye to my graduates is very difficult because I have been . . . and developed strong friendships and relationships as they have gone through their journey. But for me that must be the highlight. That difference that I make and know that I have made through decisions that I have taken that had enabled them to achieve that milestone in their lives.

How can current principals or educators aspiring to become successful School Principals contact you?

Steffan: Through the college, Andrew. Through Ballajura Community College. And if there is interest I have a number of colleagues that they can contact as well. The opportunities in the Swan District in particular, as I'm on the leadership committee in Swan and we run a number of programs for aspiring principals within the district but I'm always open to people who are really interested in the principal role. To put them in touch with good mentors or good principals. Or to give them some ideas. I've never, never shied away from sitting down and talking to educators about education. One thing that I would say to you that if you have at the center of your philosophy about education the importance and primacy of pedagogue then we're on the same page.

If you're looking for a micro manager, or a manager of education processes, I'm the wrong person to contact. But if you're looking at leading the learning program in a school, leading learning then feel free to contact me at Ballajura Community College.

Andrew: Steffan, I have absolutely been taken by your passion. I mean, I operate my life on the PEA approach - Passion, Energy and Action and I have been looking at you today thinking how we've got a lot of the same traits there. I've really enjoyed it. It's been a pleasure. It's been very enjoyable to have listened to your insights on your leadership experiences. I have no doubt that any aspiring principal who has been lucky enough to have heard your responses would have gained much from your opinions and thoughts.

So ends another in the series, "What it takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary." Until next time, this is Andrew Belotti signing off, and remember to, Let Your Spirit Run Free.

TERRY BOLAND EDUCATIONAL CONSULTANT

Good afternoon everyone. This is Andrew Belotti with another in the series, "What it takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary." It's a Thursday afternoon in mid August and I'm sitting with Mr. Terry Boland, a principal of ten years standing at schools that ranged in size from 300 to 1400 students. Mr. Boland now runs his own company, "Seek Education Solutions." Mr. Boland has kindly agreed to be interviewed for this continuing series, "What it takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary."

Mr. Boland, what was so good about being a School Principal?

Terry: Andrew for me I think the advantage of being a school principal, what was so good about being a school principal, was being able to have influence, to being able to directly have an impact on what was happening in the school, in the schools I worked in. To really be able to focus on change, to try and improve things and that for me was a major motivator. To be able to have influence, not necessarily control, but the influence to be able to try and make change within those schools. To make a difference, to change what was happening for schools, to look at them differently, to see issues, to see problems, to think about how you could do it differently, how you could respond differently. All of it being driven by trying to do the best for kids, trying to do something better for kids.


Terry: I have probably, thirty years of experience in education. I started in country schools. In actual fact I was one of those old bonded students who received pay from the Education Department to study at Uni. My first appointment was in a country school area. From there I came back to Perth after four years. In terms of this, how did you get involved in education, I just always had a passion in education. I liked being involved in schooling, always saw myself probably going into education and study, working with kids, so there was always that passion to it. The road to becoming a successful principal I think is, succinctly, mentors. I was really fortunate that when I went along, and I would have been quite happy going along and teaching, I had people who would, if you like, get in my ear and say, have you thought about doing this? Why don't you have a go at that?

It started probably at a level of just getting involved as a year coordinator in the school, to eventually having mentors who were saying, why aren't you looking at being a Head of Department, and why aren't you looking at becoming a Deputy Principal, this sort of thing. Once you realize you have something to give, and you can go a bit further, it tends to be a bit self fulfilling. It generates that enthusiasm to go on and do more and that's where it shifts into this idea of you think you can make a difference.

So it's more than just teaching in a class, which is critical, but then you start to see a bigger picture, and you start to say, I can have an influence on the whole school, and all aspects of learning, rather than what was happening in my economics and my history classes. So that background, I was really fortunate to have a number of mentors, both male and female, who at particular times were able to say to me, have you thought about - prompted me to really try and have a go at taking on leadership roles.

Throughout, I've always been someone who I can sound ideas from, so it was that passion for learning, passion for getting involved in school, and it was also something to do with people, they recognized in me some leadership quality, which I probably hadn't even thought about in my younger years of teaching. Then once I started to get involved in it, that generated a real enthusiasm and excitement for making change, doing things in schools, trying to make things different.


Terry: You certainly need knowledge of schools, I think. That's been something that's been tossed around for a long time. People have said you can have anyone run a school as long as you're a leader with good skills, you can lead. I have this view that says you still need to have a really good understanding of schools and how they work. You need to understand curriculum, you need to understand the mechanics of learning, how kids switch on, switch off, otherwise you risk becoming a manager, or a leader manager who really doesn't quite understand what it's like to be a teacher in a classroom, if you like with a challenging class, if you like with a really capable class, so you've got to have that understanding. So that experience type thing is important. The other thing, I think you really need to know or possess, you've really do need to have good interpersonal communication skills. By that it's the ability to be able to really talk actively to people, but also to listen to people. I wouldn't sit there and say, I do that perfectly, but you learn that process that, if you're going to be an effective principal, you've got to be able to talk, communicate with people.

You've got to be able to talk about what you see for things, and why you want things in particular ways, and why you have a view of the world, and the school in a particular way, and you've got to articulate that. But importantly, you've got to really be able to listen too. You've got to actually hear where people are coming from. I think that third bit, maybe it's linked to the second one, is that empathy.

You have to actually be able to see it yourself, and see the other person's, and the other people's points of view. Schools are complex places. Big schools are made up of 100 people, and teachers are never backward in coming forward. They are always an opinionated group. I don't know what it is about us as teachers, we always have opinions about everything, doesn't matter what it is, we've got an opinion on it, and we're very keen to express that. So unless you have empathy for where people are coming from, what drives them, what

motivates them, it can be really hard to manage and operate and lead a school, so I think you need that empathy factor as well.

What was the third one? I was probably going to say; what do you need to possess or know? I'll come back to that.

What is the best way to get started on the road to being a successful School Principal?

Terry: I actually believe if you really want to get on the path, you really need to get some mentoring. I think a mentor is supercritical. You need someone who is there, doing it, that you can actually watch and observe, and see what's actually going on. When you become a principal, you actually learn to become a principal. It's a bit like, you know how when you become a teacher, we'll sit there and say, you can study all you like, but you learn to be a teacher in the first two years of teaching. Well, you can come to the principalship for the first time, if you haven't had any experience in leading a school, it'll be challenging. I'm not saying you can't do it, but you learn to be a principal as you go through that. So in getting started, I think it's about having mentors, and I think you really have to pick the brains of people who are really good at it.

If you were going to become a principal, the best way of doing that is to have a colleague, to have a friend, who probably sits in that position, who you can confide with, talk with, discuss with, and really fine-tune and learn those aspects of being a principal - what it is, the finances, the accountability, the communication side of things, the working with parents, the working with staff, the working with students, and really see how that works.

They are complex places, they are really big, and I'd probably say that my path was that traditional start as a teacher, become a year coordinator, become a head of department, become a deputy, become a principal. When you first step into that role, all of a sudden you realize that there's a whole new skill set that you need, that you've sort of got, but you've got to refine it.

All of a sudden all of these things come at you, that you haven't previously had any experience with, and it's not like you've been to principal's training school, because that doesn't exist. I sat back once and thought about the in servicing that I had before I took on leadership positions, and I could probably say that when I stepped into every one of my leadership positions, I never had any training whatsoever. There wasn't even a go along to a head of department induction program, it didn't exist when I did it. Go along to a deputy induction program, it didn't exist when I made that step, and the same as principal.

Now, I know these processes have happened since and in between, but they've never been a sustainable thing. Whether that will happen through Wacot is probably another thing, but I think sometimes our departments aren't good at managing that transition into leadership positions, be it principal, be it deputy and having an ongoing program doing that. So getting

started, to me - I keep coming back to it - I think it's about mentors, I think it's about not just a mentor, but using that mentor to build up a knowledge and experience. You really do have to have that experience of doing it.


Terry: I think that depends on size and context. So, for example, when I was at Yule Brook, I think within a year or two I think I was reasonably proficient at it, but then when I went to Mount Lawley, I discovered I had a whole set of learning, at a bigger school and more complex school that I had to learn from. I think if you've got the right background, and if you've got the right basics of the communication, the knowledge, the understanding, and if you certainly have a way of thinking that allows you to strategize and think things through, you can survive. But you do take some time in each setting to really come to grips with it. So if I was actually to sit back there and say, how long does it take before you become proficient at being what I thought is a successful school principal, again it depends on context, but probably three or four years. I think three to five years. I think it wasn't until the latter period of Yule Brook that I felt that I was being really successful and proficient at that.

The reason I say that is, much of my experience was changing management in schools, and to some extent, if you have the background, changing the school's the easy bit, embedding it and sustaining it, is the hard bit. So if your measure is, can you change your school, I can do that really quickly and I can do that well. But if I can sustain those changes, that's a longer process. So in being a successful principal, I think it's probably a five year type process before I felt like I was being really successful at what I was doing, but always felt that I was continuing to learn, too.

It varies, it varies on context.


Terry: So when you say area, do you mean outside of education?

Could be outside of education, could be within education, could be within any subject areas, it depends.

Terry: OK. I think absolutely. I think leading people in a leadership position is, in the context of schools important, and its different, but leading people is the same anywhere, people are. If you understand how staff work and how people work, then I don't think that varies too much from one setting to the other. It's a contextual change, but patterns of behavior, how people work together, how they don't work together, how they cooperate together, how they don't cooperate together, how they work to achieve an outcome, I think it's pretty consistent across all organizations.

I found it, since leaving education, a lot of the principles and practices that I picked up as a leader, I have been able to apply in other settings, not education. They do, but you've got to adapt it, but they do set. I've been doing some work in local government settings, and leaders, middle leaders in government settings and it's very, very similar. Same ideas, same issues of management. The simple part about being a principal is the students and parents.

The difficult part has always been the staff. Managing, leading, working with the diverse group of teaching and non-teaching staff is the greatest challenge that faces a principal. The student issues, the student matters, managing the students, managing the curriculum, working with parents, working with crew, I think it is the easy part.

It is easier than, working with staff, their diverse needs, the way they see things, their view on learning, their view on curriculum. That's the bit that really takes the hard work as a principal. But I think it is absolutely transferable. You hear a lot of people talking about the transferability of skills and teachers and that. I think it is very true. I think we underestimate it. I think it is about how you transition your skills into another setting.


Terry: I will come back to what I said earlier. I think you need, I don't know if I could quantify it in years, but I think there is some experience you need to have. I think to take on a role as being a school leader principal, I think is predicated on you having knowledge of schools and knowledge of how they work, but also some experience in educational leadership within the school setting. Now whether that's...I've had some experiences as an executive team member or learning team member, I think that makes it better. I think a successful principal is usually someone who has had experience in leadership at levels within the executive of the school and who has had some experience at, I suppose the curriculum or team management level. I see it as very much a building block. So, could I see someone jumping from my school teacher to principal, I think it will kill him. I don't know that, unless they were extremely gifted, how they could get the head around that position.

So, I think it requires some experience at a sort of the curriculum, the learning team level. I think it requires some experience at the executive level to be a successful principal. Otherwise, I think it will probably put him on the path of self-destruction. I don't know that they would survive, just because of the sheer enormity of what comes at you in a principal's and a leader's chair. I mean the same sort of thing on, I suppose, a different style happens as a leader of a learning area.

As a deputy it happens. At a principal, it happens at a different area, different range of things, and different dimensionally. So the issue of experience is probably, I would not go on a time base, but I would go on an experience base and have an experience at other leadership levels.

Could someone come in from outside and take it? Yeah, they can. There's been examples of it. But, actually, I have not heard too many examples, successful examples, of someone who has come from a totally non-educational background but a leadership background, walking in and effectively running a school.

I can't actually say, I could put my finger on anyone like that. It might be because the teaching profession is very protective of that and educational authority is protective of that. I hear that debate from time to time, but I have never see anyone or heard of anyone.

Can you provide some real life examples of other people who had followed your advice in the field of education?

Terry: It was probably one of the things that, I moved around reasonably quickly in education and one of my regrets was, I did not really have enough time to nurture a lot of young people, young, younger leaders under me into leadership positions. I felt that I was really successful in getting people into middle level leader positions. But being in education, being a principal for ten years, it was not like I could sit back and see principal colleagues coming through that I'd worked through in previous years. There are some out there. I am sure some of the older principals, you could interview, are at the point of time where they can quote, three or four are principals who worked with them, as heads of departments and things. So I didn't really have that.

But there certainly were some examples of teachers in classes, and aspiring, I suppose, leaders, that I think had a major influence on, particularly in some of the schools I have worked at, to step up from being a teacher to being head of department to being a learning area leader. And there were several examples of people, who I think, I assisted and mentored to go from learning area leader to deputy and those sorts of positions.

But I wasn't able to, at that point in time, manage and guide people into a principal's position, but probably that's only because I was in the position only for 10 years as well. So the sort of advice, people following my advice, I don't know. There's probably something I might advise others.

Lots of colleagues I've worked with, I've tried to provide advice to. I've never seen it as, I have the answer, but I've tried to share my experience, my journeys in education, what worked for me, what didn't work for me. It's probably a question of coming back to other people and asking them what they might have gotten out of it.

Andrew: Well having had the pleasure to work with you as well, it wasn't necessarily a matter of advice, it's also observation. That's a big thing to me. You can look at it, see what's working, not working, what you'd take out, what you wouldn't take out, and it has to mould with your personality as well.


Terry: One secret to being a successful school principal: love your job. I think you have to have the passion for it. It actually has to turn you on. You actually have to enjoy working. You have to enjoy that challenge of leadership, because it is both rewarding and it is both frustrating. And you got to have that passion to be able to work through that sort of process. So I was really fortunate. In my 10 years as a principal, probably it was never a day until near the very end - and that was a very different circumstance, when I'd left the Department - but there wasn't a day with the Department of Education, where I got out of bed and didn't look forward to going and being a principal.

It only did happen once toward the very end of my career when I was working in the independent system, which was quite different. I was working in a quite different independent school and I got to the point where I just don't want to do this. But it wasn't about the school, and it wasn't about the kids, and it wasn't about the staff. It was more about the management-type side of doing it, I suppose the board-type side of things that was there.

But otherwise, I think it's just a passion and excitement for doing it. And I suppose, it's also about being open. When you say one, I think it's really about a combination of things. You've really got to be open, listening, tuned in to things. You just can't go in there with this view of: I know everything, because there's some fantastic people out there.

In my 30 years, I don't think I could probably...there's very few people that, you could say, would deliberately go out of their way to be a bad teacher. There were some ordinary teachers, but they actually thought they were doing the right things. So there's some amazing people out there in the teaching profession. It's about how you harness that, how you pull it in.

And I suppose the other secret about being a successful principal is you have to trust, trust the people around you, because there's great ideas around you. And I think give them the autonomy and freedom to go and to really try.

So one of the things I would always do, generally speaking, with the people around me - and when I say generally, the qualification is that it wouldn't get me in the shit and the shit wouldn't hit the fan -- was to trust people, let them have a go at it, let them fall over, let them take some risks and, particularly, if it was being driven by trying to do something for the kids, to do something better.

My policy was generally -- and I remember this once, because I can remember -- one principal once gave me some advice and said, my first answer when anyone comes through the door is no, and then if they really believe in it they'll come back and have a go at me again and, then, I'll listen to it.

My answer was generally yes. So if someone came in my door, and wanted to have a go at something, if I could even get a scent that this was going to have something to do with improving kids' outcomes, and it was going to have something, that could improve, learning for kids, my answer was always yes, and my challenge was then, to find out how I could do it for them.

So my role as a principal, wasn't to edify and gratify myself, and create a school and whatever. It was about providing an environment in which the varied teachers, who were in classes could do what they had to do. So my job was about creating the best environment for them. It was for no other reason.

So to teach, hope in the class have the best environment. Could teach well. Have the resources to teach. Have the opportunity to put a curriculum in place that was going to engage students. Have the resources that could support that process. So that was my job as principal. It wasn't to create a structure. And it wasn't to have everyone around that. It was to create an environment for teachers to do what they needed to do.


Terry: I think isolation is really an important one. As a principal, it actually can be pretty lonely. And some of the advice I've actually had to give, some of my colleagues over the years is you actually have to keep a bit of a distance between yourself and your staff. And that probably goes against a lot of, leadership management staff. So many personal sort of talks bad you know, the word, I need staff. You know you really get to know them. I found that really hard because in most of my schools there came times where you really do have to sit with some staff and hold them accountable for things. And the honest truth is, I could never hold someone accountable in that conversation, if I had been playing with them, drinking with them, socializing with them, in a way that just; school didn't let people understand that I'm the principal of the school and I have a job to do. I really do like you. I do like to share social occasions with you.

But there is always the fact that I am the principal. And I have to keep that bit of a thing. And I saw a couple of colleagues who once had to, when I say colleagues I saw a couple of deputies that were working with me that had to deal with some tricky situations. Who learned that the hard way. And found it enormously hard when some pretty tricky situations had to be dealt with.

And these were people they had spent a lot of time with, socialized with, got to know personally. And here they were having to hold them accountable for some really inappropriate stuff that was occurring. And they found that personally really challenging, really threatening.

So is that, what are the problems? I think there's, that isolation. I think probably here it is burn out. Probably about six years into being a principal, having gone, having been at Yule Brook, and gone through that process of starting your work and establishing it. And I was pretty well there for probably four years. And then going to Mount Lawley and developing the middle school senior school there with all the intricacies of a big school. And a traditional school with a mindset of generally resistance to change. And the building program.

I felt like the 10 years was probably like about 15 or 16. And so towards the end of it I felt like it was all consuming. You know you're at the stage where you're spending night after night. You're working solidly every waking moment and sometimes every sleeping moment is about thinking about the school. Is, is that it can actually become quite unhealthy. And I'm sure in your interviews you've probably had some candid interviews with people that will probably admit there's been times when it's got pretty shaky.

You know. You can just about come apart. And it can consume your life. So your real risk there is it can actually have some amazing impacts on your family. And I sat back once and I know when I left Mount Lawley one of the things that I reflected on was what my wife and my kids had given. And I've always been a big advocate of teachers taking time off to observe their kids. Going to functions. Going to events. Going to see them in that competition that they're in.

But I have the, I suppose... And it's sad really. I never once took off any time from my education curriculum to see my kids in school. Not once. So I never, I never... So I preached something which I didn't practice. And so from my kids perspective, there was a lot of time without me there and I've been really fortunate, I've had an absolutely supportive and tolerant wife who's supported me all the way.

And my girls have, the girls who are now older. But I sort of sit back there sometimes and reflect that from my kid's perspective, I really didn't support my girls well in their own education. So I certainly didn't practice what I preached. And even now, out of education, in that respect as a principal, I'm actually in a stage where I actually spend time at home, have an evening with my family which was almost like, you know, as a principal it would be nothing to spend two or three nights a week until 9pm in some function.

In a large school as a principal, if you follow the view of, "I will go to nearly all school events," you would actually never see a night. Because in a large school we have music programs, art programs, curriculum programs, parent nights, whatever. There could be literally something on on every night of the week. So if you follow that adage you'd never be home. So, I mean, you do have to be selective about it.

So there's some real challenges and sort of going back, the problems are I think burnout, I think it can have an enormous impact on your family life. I think it can consume you to the

stage where it sort of just takes on everything, it takes on every waking hour. And you can actually get to the point where it's, you have great difficulty winding down and just being able to cut off.

Because in some ways you love what you do and you love the achievement of what you're doing. But it can actually consume you in that way.

Terry, what have been your highlights, your rewards in being a successful School Principal?

Terry: I have reflected on this from time to time. I'm actually really proud of what I've done as in ... my track record was not being a principal of an established school. My track record as principals in schools has been in schools that have undergone major change. You know, in '99 I was presented with, "Well, he's managing Senior High School. What we want you to do is shut that school down in three months and then start it as a Middle School for years 8-10 and build the community around that. And at the same time you'll manage that building program so that the buildings and structures are going to cater for what the school wants." So that was a challenging process but it was real exciting too. I mean, we were able to select our staff and had a group of staff there that was super keen, you know, fantastic staff. Really motivated, wanting to do something, all driven by the desire to do something for kids. And then I had that opportunity of going to Mount Lawley which was, I suppose at the time I thought it would be a big challenge but it was huge challenge. I mean, a traditional school with some amazing people in it.

And actually asking them or being required to rattle the cage and say, "I need you to work differently." So a school that had really been there since 1955 had a culture of learning, had worked the same way for literally 45 years, to all of a sudden say, "We're going to divide this school into a Middle School, Senior School. You can either work in the Middle School or the Senior School. You aren't going to rotate and basically we are going to have the two school structures so you'll have separate arrangements. You'll have separate recess and lunch in Middle School, separate recess and lunch at the Senior School.

And we're going to manage this transition across the school and at the same time provide the curriculum integrity and provide a quality curriculum in the Middle School and a quality curriculum in the Senior School. And manage a 41 million building program." Which meant that while you're trying to operate a school, build a school, you've got builders running around in the middle doing this, you've got bridges going over this section to the other. So it was really challenging but I can genuinely stand back and feel very proud of what I was involved with and having the opportunity to lead those schools in doing that.

And drawing upon that support of those schools and I've seen my role as leading it but providing it so that all of those other people within in that school. Were able to come to the surface and at Yule Brook there was some amazing people that came to the surface who

had great ideas. I mean, all of the team leaders and staff who just got behind it and had ideas and wanted to implement plans. And the same thing occurred at Mount Lawley and I see that as part of that role.

My legacy I think is, as a leader I suppose, my highlights were the opportunity to create two very different schools really in a, I suppose, a changed management way. And to create something which I think has been quite lasting which was good on my perspective.


Terry: I think this is really dependent on the individual. For me it was never, I could never see myself sitting in a school, for longer than probably five to seven years. Now, having said that, I know some colleagues of mine, who I would consider, exemplary principals who've been in their school for 15-20 years. So I think it's a percentage. I think it depends on what drives you. Me as a person, I've always found this need, every four or five years, to do something a bit different. So from the moment I sort of, I was a teacher, came back to Perth and then took on a role as a year-coordinator for a couple of years. Then I did a few years as a Program Coordinator and then I did a Deputy's role for four years in a school. Then one or two years in another school and principal for four years and principal for five years.

To me it was that diversity in doing something different. So for me becoming a school principal was about new challenge, doing something different and that might have been ... yeah ... that's a personal trait. So it's about being a successful school principal for me was, seeking out and having new challenges reasonably regularly. Rather than feeling that you're sitting somewhere and I just liked new environments all the time. So for me it was that constant change and doing things differently.

How can current principals or educators aspiring to become successful school principals contact you?

Terry: They can contact me really easily. They can contact me by phone, they can contact me by email. Probably in my post-principal life, part of what I do in my Education Consultancy still work at schools and I still do some consultancy work for individual schools and I have over the last probably 18 months working with some schools in the Southwest. And I actually, when I work with the schools generally I'm working with the principal and I'm asked to work with principals, sometimes by the principals themselves, sometimes by directors. But one of the things that I'll do when I first walk in is, "I'm actually here because I know how hard it is to be a principal. My job to come in here and I'm coming in to help you, is just to work with you as a colleague." So I think it's about being collegial and I think it's about supporting. So I've always been really open to supporting any colleague in a school who wants help, wants assistance, who just wants that assertive lens to look at something or even to just bounce the ideas off.

Because one thing that I don't know is I don't know the answers to everything but I know the power of many is better than the power of one. So if you can actually help collegial friends, if you can have colleagues who you can sit and bounce ideas off and just say, "What do you think it is? How would you go about this? What would you do about that?" I think that's really important.

So I'm more than happy if my email address and telephone number to be available for people wanting to contact me and bounce ideas off me, they're more than welcome.

Andrew: So it's Terry Boland Seek Education Solutions.

Terry: Yes.

Andrew: Do you have a website Terry?

Terry: No, I don't but I have my email address: [email protected] So if you want to contact me on that. I probably should give a phone number by the way. 0466 557659 is my telephone number. More than happy to talk with anyone.

Andrew: Thank you, Terry! It's been an absolute pleasure and a very enjoyable experience for me to listen to your insights on your leadership experiences. I have no doubt that any aspiring principal who's been lucky enough to have heard your responses would have gained much from your thoughts and from your opinions.

So ends another in the series, "What it takes to be a successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary". Until next time, this is Andrew Belotti signing off and remember to Let Your Spirit Run Free.

JENNIFER BROZ PRINCIPAL CURTIN PRIMARY SCHOOL

Good afternoon everyone. This is Andrew Belotti with another in the series, "What it takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary". It's a brilliantly sunny Tuesday afternoon in mid-August and I'm sitting with Miss Jennifer Broz, principal of Curtin Primary School, a school of approximately 150 students and a staff of 12-15. Curtin Primary School is located in Manning, a southern suburb of the city of Perth. Miss Broz has kindly agreed to be interviewed for the continuing series, "What it takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary".

Miss Broz, what is so good about being a school principal?

Jennifer: Well, there are lots of things. I think the major thing is you have the ability to implement the things that you truly believe in. I have a strong belief that the social and emotional well being of kids are as important as the academic ability. As a principal I've been able to ensure that whatever school I work in, that there's always a focus on social and emotional well being. I think it also allows you the opportunity to have a big picture understanding of education. It allows you to keep more up-to-date with contemporary thought and practice. You have more professional development opportunities. It gives you a good understanding of directions with our system and around the world.

You get to do a lot of positive things with kids. I think as a principal you hold a lot of that positional power and most of the kids hold you in high esteem. It's a real buzz walking around the school and kids showing you their work and when you praise them there's a big smile on their face. There's a lot of positive things that you get from the students. That's great.

I also think that people treat you differently when you're a principal. I've been a deputy for a while and that has to be one of the worst jobs in the world because you really are the punching bag for all the teachers and you get to do all the horrible jobs in the school. I think teachers try things on a deputy that they would never try on a principal. It's actually an easier job being a principal than a deputy.

I love being a principal but I think the main thing is I get to really implement the things I believe in.

Can you give us a little background about how you became involved in education and your road to becoming a successful school principal?

Jennifer: A difficult one. I suppose I fell into education in many ways because I was from very traditional parents. My father was a European migrant and so they had a very traditional view about what girls should do in the family. My parents actually didn't want me

to go on to school because they felt that I was only going to get married and have kids. I'm in my 50's now and have neither of those things. [laughs] Though my options as far as my mother was concerned was teaching because you could keep the same hours as your kids or a hairdresser because as a hairdresser you could work from home and you'd still have your children close to you. I chose teaching. It wasn't that I didn't want to be a teacher, certainly in my younger years I did a lot of playing school and I remember in primary school being asked to take classes on the days when they couldn't get a relief teacher. It's certainly outrageous, isn't it? [laughs] You'll never hear that today!

I went to teacher's college. I really didn't see myself staying in teaching and I probably got to the stage where I was looking for a way out. I went to part-time and I was going to look at opening up a cafe or something like that. An acting principal's opportunity came by and the principal asked me to do that and it just re-invigorated me and I found that this was probably the road I wanted to go down.

I knew that I didn't have a lot of skills to be competitive in applying for principals positions, so I took the road of applying for positions in Central Office. I went down that track and built up my skills that way. I spent about six years in Central Office and then I took a principal's position overseas for a while and came back into a deputy's position and now a principal's position.

What are the top three things that someone should know, should possess, in order to be a successful school principal?

Jennifer: Well, it's hard to narrow it down to three. I think the West Australian Leadership Framework really sums it up. I personally would put more value on certain aspects of that framework. I think that the attributes and values are very important but they might not get you by alone. I think you really need to have knowledge about education in order to be a successful principal. The really good principals I know, have a good understanding of current thought and practice and they also understand the policy in direction. So for me, I think the top three things, is knowing your stuff, really knowing about education, current trends, knowing about policy in directions.

I think you also need to have good planning skills and problem solving skills They probably go hand in hand. I find school developmental planning a real challenge and there's lots of problem solving that goes around that. You need to have good lateral thinking skills and I think you need that because sorting your way through policy and different practices and trying to put plans together, there's a labyrinth of information out there and decisions that you have to make.

To be innovative I think you really need to be able to think outside of the square. You need to have networks around you. You need to have the humility to ask questions and ask for

help. I find that's a really important one. You need to be able to self-reflect, know your weaknesses and strengths.

What is the best way to get started on the road to becoming a successful school principal?

Jennifer: I think as an aspirant, the first thing you should need to be doing is putting your hand up for everything all the time. It's often difficult to get your first foot in the door because often there just aren't the opportunities depending on the school that you're working at. The opportunities aren't there so you have to make the opportunities yourself. Come up with an idea and implement it. Ask if you can mentor young teachers or work on developing a whole school plan of some sort. You might say to the principal, "How about I review one of the curriculum areas?" Or have a go at analyzing some of the school data? Grab the Naplan and have a go at analyzing it and then come to the principal and say, "Look, you know, I've had a go at this, this is what I found. What do you think?" You need to make the opportunities yourself. Don't wait for them to come to you.

I think that the road's a lot more difficult for women in particular. Often women might take on an acting position at a school but then, if they don't win that position, someone comes into the position and they have to go back to classroom.

It 's often too difficult for them to take up positions that are further away from home because they have family responsibilities. They might have to pick kids up from school or take kids to sport and all that sort of thing. I think if you're in that situation, you, once again, you need to keep up your skills. You need to be aware of what it takes to be competitive if applying for a principals' position and work towards keeping those skills updated because in this fast changing world the skills become outdated very quickly.

Another thing, which is probably the road that I took, is to move sideways. Take up a position in District Office or Central Office, or in a different non-teaching role, maybe as a Getting-it-Right teacher or a literacy support teacher. Just moving sideways because my experience in Central Office was absolutely amazing. I learnt about the big picture, I learnt about trends and directions. I also had the opportunity to go around to schools and see the best and the worst of schools. That was probably my biggest learning experience.

I think as a principal, once you've got the position, you need to remember that change doesn't happen overnight. As gung-ho as you may be and you want to waltz into a school and change everything ... don't. I think it's very difficult if you get people offside to get them back onside working with you. So realize that change takes a long time and don't try, and, don't be disappointed if things don't happen quickly. Keep pursuing your vision because it will eventually happen.

How long does it take to become proficient at being a successful school principal?

Jennifer: Forever I think. I mean, it never ceases to amaze me how little I knew yesterday. I think I learn things every day and I think it would be a sad day when I stop learning. In this job, I think you learn a lot by your mistakes and sometimes it takes a lot of mistakes. So don't be put off by making mistakes or don't be afraid to make mistakes because that's how you learn.

Will your methods or advice work in any area for anyone?

Jennifer: No. I think that my methods would drive some people crazy! [laughs] I don't make decisions lightly and I know that that does drive people crazy because I like to consider things, I like to research things, I like to weigh them up before I do things. I know that that drives people who want to get things done now, that must drive them crazy. I'm also very collaborative and I like to make decisions based on a consensus where possible. I know that some principals aren't collaborative. They want to work in an operation where they make decisions quickly and they want to be the ones who make decisions. I'm sure that that works well for them but it probably doesn't work well for the rest of the staff.

I like to give staff a fair bit of freedom and with that comes responsibilities. That doesn't work in every school. I've worked in schools where teachers simply want to be told what to do and they want to have their hand held while they're doing it. That takes time to turn these people around, for them to take more responsibility, to make more decisions themselves.

So what I do and the way I do it doesn't work in all schools but you can turn a school around to work more in your way.

How much experience does a person need to be a successful school principal?

Jennifer: Oh, that's impossible to answer because I suppose success is such an ambiguous term. If you're talking about, I suppose, how much experience a person needs before they start applying for positions, I think it's very different for men and for women. It's my experience and I'm sure I've read some research on this as well, that women don't tend to apply for the positions until they're certain that they're competent in all the aspects of the job. Whereas a lot of men will say, "Yeah, I'll have a go at that." Or, "I think I can do that." So they'll have a go. So you find women really hold back until they feel they're absolutely competent. My message to them is have a go! Simply have a go, you'll never be competent in all the aspects of the position but you learn in the position. Please, have a go and you'll get better at it once you're in the job.

And like I said before, in this job you learn so much by your mistakes and sometimes it takes a lot of mistakes to get it right.

Can you provide some real-life examples of other people who have followed your advice in the field of education?

Jennifer: I've always ... I suppose, been very supportive of women and try to encourage as many women as I can to pursue leadership roles but as I said before, it's very difficult given the number of barriers that women often come across. I've worked with some women over recent years who have been absolutely fantastic and have real leadership ability but because of family responsibilities they haven't been able to pursue that yet. I've made sure that I've always made opportunities in the school where they can keep up their skills whether it be a curriculum leadership role or an acting position where I've had to make the position flexible around their family life. Allowing them to work certain days, to have more time off, to maybe start a little bit later on some days. I've had to be more flexible.

If you had one secret to give about being a successful school principal, what would it be?

Jennifer: I'm not sure it's a secret, but I think you really need to keep up-to-date with contemporary thought and practice. You need to read. I actually know a lot of principals who don't' do any professional reading. They're fortunate to be able to surround themselves with competent people and people in their school who have been able to lead change. I also think sometimes they can take the wrong advice from the wrong people as well. So it's really about keeping up to date. And you can do that. There's the Internet these days, go on courses, belong to professional organizations. There are lots of magazines or associations like ASPA, our peer association, that send regular updates, regular newspaper articles.

Never think that you know it all. I had an experience just recently where I was feeling a bit ... I wasn't feeling very enthused. My district director said, "Maybe you need to go on a leadership course."

I said, "I've been to so many leadership courses. What more can I learn?" We did a new course offered in our district called Instructional Leadership, and it was absolutely fantastic, absolutely fantastic and it reintegrated me.

Yes, just always keeping up-to-date.

What are some of the common problems that people experience in their role as a successful school principal?

Jennifer: I think problems are different for different schools. In some of the more difficult schools you might have a lot of problems relating to students, behaviour management. You usually have a good staff in those schools. Those sorts of schools seem to attract good people. The people pull together because you need too in those tough schools. I've also worked in more leafy green schools where the students might be brilliant but you have a lot of pressures from parents. Sometimes the staff can be quite difficult too.

So I think out of those three, give me the difficult students any day. I think they are far more easy to work with. Probably dealing with difficult staff has caused me the most headaches over the years because it only takes one difficult staff member to completely upturn a school.

I was fortunate in one school to work under local selection and that was absolutely fantastic because you could at least employ people that you're on the same page with. Working with difficult staff takes time and sometimes there is nothing that you can do except encourage that staff member to leave. Often that makes a huge difference.

I also think bringing about cultural change within a school is one of the most difficult things to do. One of the major blocks to changing things in schools. You can implement a whole lot of things around the surface that might look as if things are happening but really it's quite superficial if you don't get down and really change that culture in the school.

Jennifer, what have been your highlights, your rewards in being a successful school principal?

Jennifer: That's a hard one because you don't really often think about it but on reflecting I think the biggest buzz for me is seeing those really challenging kids turn around. I've worked in some really difficult schools and to see those kids who have no future and all of a sudden they get switched on. They're coming to school, they're loving school. I find that very exciting. That doesn't happen because of me. That happens when a whole school pulls together. You know when you're all pulling in the same direction you can really change lives and I love that feeling of maybe giving some of these families some hope, changing lives of people.

Also seeing teachers gain a new lease on life. We've all seen those teachers who have become stale and disillusioned and cynical. Turning around those teachers is, I think, a wonderful feeling because usually underneath that cynicism there's probably someone who was a very good teacher at one stage. To see those sorts of teachers, the light goes on again and they all get enthusiastic. That gives me a great deal of satisfaction.

Also, seeing teachers moving on to bigger and better things. To see someone who doesn't have the confidence to apply for a new position, to encourage them. Many people that I have encouraged to apply for different positions, whether it be just in a different school or a leadership position, the one thing that they all say to me is, "I could never go back. Why did I take so long to do this? Now I'm here I could never go back."

What sort of things can someone do to stay, a successful school principal?

Jennifer: I think it's about just keeping fresh. Know when you're starting to feel that little bit of disillusionment and do something about it. Don't just keep doing the same thing. I think in this position it is very easy to stay in a school that is just rolling along. Personally, I do

tend to get a bit bored. So I think keeping fresh. Don't keep doing the same thing. Keep looking for new ways to do things. There are always bigger and better ways of doing things even when you've got a handle on things you can always do them better.

Professional development, I think, is really important. As I said before, that can come in all sorts of forms, whether it's professional journals or just being on a web-mail list or staying connected with other principals.

Sometimes, I've wondered, if it's time to go and do another job. Just moving sideways a bit, something in the district office, for a little while. There are lots of opportunities. Just one year stints or even six month stints in district office, central office I think that they're a good way to sort of get that spark going again.

How can current principals or educators aspiring to become successful school principals contact you?

Jennifer: You can contact me at the school, at Curtin Primary School, which is in Manning, Western Australia. Please do, if you have any questions to ask or any assistance that you would like because how does the saying go, "a problem shared is a problem halved."

Andrew: Thank you Jennifer. It has been a pleasure, and a very enjoyable experience for me, to have listened to your views on leadership, and leadership experiences. I am certain that aspiring principals who have been lucky enough to have heard your responses will have gained much from your thoughts.

So ends another in the series, "What it Takes to Be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary." Until next time, this is Andrew Belotti signing off, and remember to, Let Your Spirit Run Free.

FIONA KELLY PRINCIPAL NORTH FREMANTLE PRIMARY

Good afternoon everyone. This is Andrew Belotti with another in the series, "What It Takes To Be A Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary." It's a sunny Wednesday afternoon in mid-August. I'm sitting with Miss Fiona Kelly, Principal of North Fremantle Primary School, a school of about 85 children and a staff of 12. North Fremantle Primary School is located in North Fremantle, a northern suburb of the city of Fremantle. Miss Kelly has kindly agreed to be interviewed for the continuing series, "What It Takes To Be A Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary."

Miss Kelly, what is so good about being a School Principal?

Fiona: I think the thing I like the most is the fact that no three days are ever the same. I find that the job involves being a teacher, a counselor, a construction site manager [laughter] , particularly this year. You're a sports coach. You're a nurse. It's just that every minute of every day is completely different.


Fiona: As a child, I think I always wanted to be a teacher. I always thought it would be fun playing all day and doing art and doing sports. But when I finished school I wasn't sure. So I went to the bank for a year that gave me the money to have a holiday before I started University. I did start teachers college from there. Still with the idea that it was a fun and happy place. Finishing from my teaching I went to Kellerberrin and then to London leaving..

While I was there I did a lot of relief teaching. The children I had ended up with an Australian accent which, [laughs] I thought was grand, I'm not sure what their parents thought.

After that I came back to XXXX Primary School. I was there for four or five years, kept wanting to change the rubric but that was stuck in a division with a principal that didn't really encourage us to move around. I guess I could have applied for a transfer but instead I went back to University to do career counseling.

From there I went working with students at risk in an off-campus program in Balga. I loved that job. Again it was a little bit like a principal's job, I think. Every day was completely different. Our challenge was to get these kids off the streets and back into school so it was a very hard job but very rewarding in the end. That led me into students at risk in district office, behaviour management-type roles, curriculum leadership. After being in district office for four or five years it was, how do I get back into a school?

The few interviews I had I got comments such as 'you've got great information, you've got wonderful knowledge but you haven't got recent school experience.'

So I went back into a school, not as a deputy but as a students-at-risk coordinator. That gave me the experience that when a job was advertised as a deputy position, I had my first child by this stage. A part-time job that I went into as a deputy was how I got into administration. From there right into principal, yes.

That was job sharing a deputy position and that was a great experience because the principal I had at the time wanted one of us to do students at risk and the other to do curriculum. I forced myself to put my hand up for curriculum because all my experience was in students at risk. That broadened my savvy and my skills.

At that school I had four different principals in four years. They were all completely different but there are things I have learned from each of them and I think there are little bits of all of those leaders in the way that I'm a leader now.

I went from there to Osborne Primary as deputy. Again I continued in a part-time capacity, had two children at this stage. One of my principals from XXXX Primary had been acting for a year. She and I had both said if we ever get the chance to job-share a principal's job that's what we'd like to do.

When I was at Osborne I heard about a position that the deputy and the principal had left at the same time. Small school, which meant the teaching component, or the non-teachng component of the deputy, was only one day.

We approached the director together and said, we've got this great idea. We'll both be principal. We'll have an overlap day, which uses up the deputy's admin time. And we'll do the whole job together as a tandem principal. Which he was happy to give us the chance to do.

Amazing experience. I think that's where a lot of my... Well, I learned a lot. I job-shared with that particular girl for that year. The following year the director thought we'd done a great job.

Someone else came in, in Perez's position. The two of us job shared for the following year. And, well, that's how I've ended up here. I'm now full time this year but I've job-shared principal for two and a half years. And here I am.


Fiona: I think that the most important thing, to me I guess, is that relationships are the key. Unless you've got the trust of your staff, the students, the parents, you're not going to create change. So the first thing you need to do is actually build those relationships. I had an

old basketball coach that used to talk about TEAM, meaning together excellence, apart mediocrity. And that's resonated through this job. I think if you want to achieve stuff it needs to be as a team. And I think that's probably the first thing.

Secondly, I think you always need to reflect. The job changes so much and the individuals you're interacting with on a daily basis are always so different. It needs to be. You're driving home in the car every day going, what did I achieve today? What was good? What worked? What didn't? Why didn't it?

It's that continually, daily reflection. And at the end of a term or a semester stepping back and going, we've achieved these things; this is where we need to move on. So that continual reflection process.

And for me, and I think very important for other people, is that professional friendships. When I went into... I've moved from West Coast District to Fremantle this year. I walked in and met my new manager operations, and said, my new best friend [laughs] .

And I think that knowing the person on the other end of the phone, one is your manager operations. You've got to use him. Don't think you know everything. Always ring him, get the advice that they're there to give.

I used to always joke that we had our curriculum friend, schools special application friend, our dumb question friend. So it's the network of people you make that you go, who do I ring? I'm not sure about this? Check it out with your colleague. Make your own decision in the end, but make sure that those networks...

You support each other because it's important, valuable information that your colleagues can give you.


Fiona: It's imperative to tell people that that's your plan that you want to take on leadership roles. It's often the principal in the school that gets the emails about collegiate groups, aspirant programs. Have you got anyone to recommend, I need an acting so-and-so for a period of time? So, those people know that you're interested. You can often be looked over, not because people don't care, it's just that they don't see it in you or know that that's what you're after.

I think it's important to get to know people in the district and other schools for the same reason. So that you're somebody that they might think of when an opportunity comes up.

To be a leader in your own school you need to actually step up and say, I'll run that project or I've got this idea, can I?

I think it's also important to, if you're going to your principal with a problem that you go with a solution as well. So that you're seen as somebody who thinks things through, has good ideas, and actually is proactive in improving your school.

And I think also, to be prepared to leave. I know a lot of people tend to get stuck in the school they're in and want that deputy's job or that curriculum leader's role. And I think you actually need to be prepared to step outside and go places, even if is just for a short period of time. Put yourself out of your comfort zone.


Fiona: I'm not sure there's a [laughs] a definite answer to that! It's an ongoing process. As I said to you, the other day I feel like I've been successful but I'm definitely not an expert. And I think staying a successful principal can be a bit tricky! [laughs] It's always changing, you need to be prepared to professional develop, read and keep on top of things.

I guess the most important thing is to be prepared to change and to know how to manage it because I think that's one of the biggest roles for us as principals. So, I guess it's actually living the lifelong, learn at what we're trying to create and that key to itS actually making sure we honour ourselves.

Will your methods and advice work in any area for anyone?

Fiona: I think so. The ideas I present I guess are about personal, individual growth but it's also about being passionate about your job, reflecting on what you do and being prepared to keep learning. And I think that applies in most careers.


Fiona: Again, I don't think that's something that can be measured in years. I think that the best principals have been good teachers and continue to be teachers and are in touch with what's going on in that regard. I also think that principals who have had a lot of years of experience in other areas as well, so traveling and family and different areas of the same profession, are also very successful.

Really, you can never have too much experience! [laughs] So, yeah. I don't know how much does a person need? I just think they need to be good at what they've done along the way and in their different roles.


Fiona: I'm not sure if they specifically followed my advice but I think that with the job shares that I do in principal's positions, that Perez, Jen and I, we've learnt so much from each other. We all had different strengths and it was a little bit like instead of myself turning

up with a network of three, I ended up with a network of 12 colleagues that I could learn from and tap in to.

Jen Graffin had worked in District Office so she had a great knowledge of the latest policy and financial management and that side of things.

Perez was an early childhood teacher who had done a lot in roles of an LFC and side coordinator and I had done a lot of things with Middle Primary Behavior Management. So the combination of us, we all learnt from each other and with each other.

We did instruction leadership as a group and we've all now continued on. Jen's at Northam as a principal now, Perez is in Central Office as a consultant so I think the things we've learnt from each other gave us another repertoire of skills that have helped us all along the way.

I've had several teachers who've followed me from school to school! [laughs] You know, keen to come on board and be where I am and I think that, well I guess the way I read that is that they feel valued as an important member of a team that I run and like being in a school where I am.

Where they can teach the way they want to teach and feel like they're supported and encouraged to do that. A couple of them are now senior teachers, one's doing her level three.

She's back at Osborne now but I guess I always do try to encourage people to become level three teachers or have a go at administration if there's someone that shows a propensity for leadership.

When I moved out of Osborne to do my acting work, the girls I left behind in the deputies roles, I'm still in contact with them and helping them with their CV's et cetera. So taking that network guiding in supporting people into leadership is important.


Fiona: I've got two things, not one! [laughs] The first one is to never be complacent and I guess I've said this couple of times already but you can't possibly know everything there is to know and our job changes all the time. So, to keep on your toes and keep up with what's happening and be prepared to say "I don't know that. Who does? Who's got [laughs] Who's got the skills and knowledge to help me with this?" So that continual learning.

And I guess the other little litmus test I have myself is to always be saying "Is what I'm or what the school's doing now in the best interest of the kids?" And if the answer is yes, then let's go with it. If it's not, reflect on what we've chosen.

What are some of the common problems that people experience in their role as a School Principal?

Fiona: I think one of the ones I'm aware of and experienced myself is understanding the dynamics. When Perez and I went into YYYY Primary, the former principal had left suddenly as had the deputy and there were a lot of unsettled, unhappy people. Kids, parents, teachers. All they wanted to do was tell us about it and they wanted us to fix it there and then. And we took the step back, put a hand out and just listened, thought, looked at the dynamics. I know that if we'd rushed in on some of that first information we've heard, the decisions we made would have been the wrong ones.

So I think again, it's that take a step back, be a good listener, watch and see and learn from the dynamics before you do any major decisions.


Fiona: I guess most recently and they're the ones that come to mind immediately, is experiencing successful change and I know here at North. Last term or last semester, it felt like we had so much to do but it has slowed down and there's a great vibe on the veranda. The kids are happy, there are lots of parents saying "Things are good, they're enjoying school." We had a busy bee the other week and with such a small school we had 20 parents out here that stayed the whole day. And to see people are keen to do that and be a part I think that's fantastic.

It gives you the feeling that they're on your team which is great. I think teachers that you've supported being happy and successful. I know one of the teachers, again atYYYY, he walked in at 08:45 and out at 03:05.

When we first go there he was disengaged but he's now done all the CMIS training courses, he's one of their presenters, he's put artwork from his school in the Town exhibition and one of the kids won an award last year.

So he was a passionate teacher and he is again and I think that's because he was happy with changes and that's really nice to see, someone that's going to quit has stayed in there and is doing a great job again.


Fiona: The things I thought about on the weekend, funnily enough, is the first thing I'm going to say. It's to always reflect and I know as I've said previously, I'm always, when I drive home [laughs] it's "What went wrong today?" And making sure I try to think of the good things that happened and telling the staff members what they are. And also what could I have done differently? How did that conversation go? Or what have I avoided again today? Because they are the things that you probably [laughs] you know, need to get in and do.

So it's that always reflecting on your own and the whole school's practice. Don't be afraid to ask for help. Have your best friend. [laughs] And remember to always be asking is it in the best interest of the kids.

How can current principals and/or educators aspiring to become successful School Principals contact you?

Fiona: I'm happy for people to send me an email through the department process and I can call them back through there or contact me at my school.

So this is the Department of Education and Training in Western Australia?

Fiona: Yes.

Andrew: Thank you. Thank you, Fiona. It has been a pleasure and a very enjoyable experience for me to have listened to your views on leadership and leadership experiences. I have no doubt that any aspiring principal who's been lucky enough to have heard your responses would have gained much from your thoughts.

So ends another in the series, "What It Takes To Be A Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary". Until next time, this is Andrew Belotti signing off, and remember to, Let Your Spirit Run Free.

DIGBY MERCER PRINCIPAL COMO SECONDARY COLLEGE

Good afternoon everyone. This is Andrew Belotti with another in the series, "What it Takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary." It's an overcast Monday afternoon in late August, and I'm sitting with Mr Digby Mercer, Principal of Como Secondary College, a school of approximately 700 students and 60 staff. Como Secondary College is located in Como, a southern suburb of the city of Perth. Mr Mercer has kindly agreed to be interviewed for the continuing series, "What it Takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary."

Mr Mercer, what is so good about being a School Principal?

Digby Mercer: The good part about being a school principal is you can do things, which is probably why I wanted to become a principal in the first place, because it gives you the scope to influence the direction of the school, to undertake all sorts of activities, things that you want to do to improve the school. So for me, it's the frustration of sitting back and thinking, well I think I could do this, or I could do that. By being principal, you can go off and do those sorts of things, and maybe influence the way a school runs. I guess a school is a powerful social institution, so if you can do good work in the school, you really are making a contribution to society, if you want to look at it in that sort of a way. Maybe I'm a control freak too, maybe that's it! But it's just being in control, being able to influence events, to have things set up so that you're addressing what you think is important in the school.

In the end, yes, I do believe it's about the power to do good, being within a school, the fact that you can influence hundreds and hundreds of people through your work as a teacher and as a school principal.

Can you give us a little background about how you became involved in education and your road to becoming a successful School Principal.

Digby: At university I studied psychology and one of the ways I saw I could use my psychological training was to go into education and in particular I went into special education. So that's where I started, way up in Port Headland, running an education support unit, working with children with all sorts of disabilities and handicaps, which was quite interesting. I don't think I started teaching until I was about 29. I'd done other little jobs, such as a youth worker, and working at university in various capacities, but in the end I decided education would be the best way to utilize the skill set I'd learnt. And becoming a successful school principal? Well, I guess it gets back to my answers for the first part, I could see things that I wanted to do, ways to make things better, so to be able to do that, to be able to influence those sorts of the things, you do want to get promotions. I firstly became an acting head of a learning area - not a learning area, it was a program coordinator position in pastoral care, if you like, at Headland.

Then from there I went to being a deputy principal up at Wongan Hills, in education support. Then I became a program coordinator at Australind Senior High School in pastoral care, and that was, again, quite interesting. I like to do different things, I like challenges, I guess that gets to the heart of it, keeps life interesting, and moving round, and going to different schools.

I guess part of that is if you want to become a successful school principal, if indeed that's what I am, that's what you've got to do - seek out the challenges, or want to have a challenge, wanting to do something different, keeps you interested.

So as a principal, I think anyone who's been a principal would say they can start off the day knowing what they'd like to do, but then what they actually do can be quite different, because so much can happen in a day, it really is a complex, interesting sort of job. Then after being the program coordinator at Australind, I then went to Halls Creek, as a deputy principal up there, which was a very interesting experience. Then from there, deputy principal at Port Headland Senior High School, then acting principal and then finally principal now of several schools.

But all the time seeking out the challenges, looking for the interesting experiences, I actually enjoyed going to the country, just to do something different, or to go to a different school. So coming to a school like Como is quite different to the school I was at previously, Coodinup Community College. Different situation, different challenges, actually an interesting job.


Digby: That is a difficult question. I guess one of the things to me that a school principal does in order to be successful is a school principal is the hub within the school. They're the person who is connecting people with each other, or more importantly, connecting ideas within the school. Connecting things and connecting ideas and people in such a way that you can make things happen within the school. So that sort of occurred to me last year, a couple of years ago, looking at a program on networking and networking theory. I thought, "Well, now that's the job a school principal does within the school." They connect things up, they're connecting things up in such a way that you can make things happen. So I see that as an important part of my job.

The other thing I've become firmly convinced about is to know your own mind about what you want to do. For a while there I would go along to every Marple Fullan lecture, or whoever the prevailing expert was, and was sort of in that game for a while where everyone was a transformational leader because they just read Sogiovanni or whoever the expert was.

But now I'm fully convinced that education is one area that is so subject to fads, to opinion, that there isn't a lot of ... Education still has a long way to go in terms of being less subject to opinion and fads, and needs to be more evidence directed. So to me now, I do rely on my own experience. I do rely on a very pragmatic approach to things.

I'm I guess less prone now to be influenced by fads, or the latest fashion in education, because to me education is particularly prone to that, and I think has suffered from that in many ways. So it's knowing yourself, what your own values are in education and applying those.

And I guess the third thing is that education is a people business. So relationships and how you interact with people and how you can influence the interactions happening between people in your school are also very crucial to the success of a school and your success as a principal.

People have to trust you.


Digby: Well, I think the best way to get started is to have a go at something. Have a go at something that really interests you, that's a challenge to you, something that's going to give you satisfaction when you complete it. So for me, it was doing things like devising a cons to pay system for a high school. Developing approaches to educating students with special needs. One of the first things I did at Headland that sort of gave me a lot of satisfaction was organizing a variety night, that ran over several nights, and that was just in conjunction with several other features. But I guess it showed me the power of organization, of working together with people in a team, that you sort of can accomplish things that you never thought you could achieve.

So yeah, having a go, taking on a challenge, and successfully completing it puts you well on the road to becoming I think a successful school principal.


Digby r: And here's something that you've probably heard many times before: how long is a piece of string? I think it depends, really. Very hard to say. I would have thought far after 10 years would be absolute minimum. I mean what's the school principal in DET like, could be anywhere from a level three to a level six. I think to become a level six a school principal does, you do need a solid foundation and a back up behind you whereas becoming a level three principal of a small school probably doesn't need a huge amount of experience, but I think it does require a huge amount of common sense though. And sometimes, something like common sense can never be achieved, so it depends on many things. I know I've come across some very young teachers who thought they could be a level six senior high school principal in a couple of years. Well that's not going to happen because I think it is a very

complex job and I think you do need experience as a deputy principal and as a level three so I think all of that's quite important.

And as you said earlier in the interview Andrew, whilst there isn't a specific learning experience while trying to be a principal, unlike the army where you get trained to be a corporal, or you get trained to be a sergeant or whatever I guess going through the ranks in the education department, being the head of a learning area or a program coordinator or being a deputy principal or whatever, is one way of learning your job in that sort of situation. In fact the best learning experience is probably being an acting principal for a while.

Will your methods, your advice work in any area and for anyone?

Digby: Probably not. One thing I've learnt that, one strategy that works at one school, when you tie it to another school might not necessarily work even though it's been superb at this other school, brought about all sorts of change, it can be an utter failure elsewhere. So it all depends on the context, the context of the school. On so many factors about what works for people, you know, so much depends on your personality and how you interact with other people, about your knowledge, your past experiences, on whether or not you're going to be successful. Maybe there's some general principals there that people could apply, but I do think you need to be ... make your own decisions about what's going to work for you.

Someone might say, you know, to be a successful principal you've got to be clear about, say, distributed leadership, for example. Now for a long time I was worrying about distributed leadership and how important it is within schools and then I went to a lecture by Patrick Diagan who, Professor Patrick Diagan, and he thought that, you know, well I've been thinking about this concept of distributed leadership and he said to me it's an oxymoron because leadership is about power and you can't really distribute, well partly about power, but you can't really distribute leadership, you can't apportion power to different people.

Therefore it mightn't be that you can actually distribute leadership if you like within the schools, which I thought was an interesting way at looking at it, but to me it just gets back to the point that there's all this advice out there about what makes an effective principal or a good principal, but it's proving very hard to pin it down and just sort of say, well this is what it is or this is what a principal should be.

I think everyone has a unique set of characteristics and for one school they might be perfectly in tune, that persons personal characteristics and the needs of that school and the principal could be highly successful. For that person, in that situation, but sort of saying, that's going to work for everybody in that situation I think is ......

How much experience does a person needs to be a successful School Principal?

Digby: Well it depends what you mean by experience. People can be a long time in education, but never really be suited to be a school principal. I think it's what you've done with your time in education and what you've learnt from your time in education, or in a school, that might determine how you're going to be, how successful you are going to be as a school principal, so ... I mean, you can pack a lot of experience in. It depends what you mean by experience, do you mean years in education or do you mean what the person's actually done, the activities that the person's done within the course of the year. So I would say, yeah, a person does need to have done a lot, put themselves in different situations. So, it certainly is more than just the time in their job. It's what you've done with that time that counts.

Can you provide some real life examples of other people who've followed your advice in the field of education?

Digby: Yeah, I guess there are lots of examples where I've encouraged people to go on and go to the next level where they've been at. And I guess what made the best examples, the most satisfying examples for me have been the schools in the country where I've been had a pre-dominantly young and inexperienced staff, where as a school principal you're in a position to be able to really do the graduate training for those sorts of teachers and I think that has been one of the most satisfying aspects of being a principal. Of course, there's the students who go on and do great things that you've had a part in playing, but it's also great with your own staff, and with your teachers, particularly with young teachers and then to see them start off as raw graduates, first year in schooling and then to go on a become level threes or deputies. That's been a very satisfying aspect of the job.

Some real life examples? Well I guess one interesting example was actually talking with a teacher about going out of education. Now this teacher was a deputy principal, couldn't drive too far because of physical problems and so came to a hard decision about, well, what do you do? This person actually go out of being within the education system, but has gone on to be a consultant in education and working in a university and that's been a very good move for this person to do.

But ... That was an interesting experience, going through and going through the pros and cons and working out, you know, what might be best. Just giving the encouragement to make the jump, so that has been a successful jump for the person, but as I said before, many examples. One of my teachers here who has become a mu coordinator. Eight years ago she was a beginning teacher at Tom Price, so just to see her development and knowing that one day she would probably go on to be head of a learning...

I've got two teachers here who started in Tom Price and who are ready to take the next step, well that's good. That's a common experience, I think for people who've been in the North West.


Digby: Know your own mind, don't be influenced by fads in education. It's do what you think is right based on all of your experience.


Digby: Common problems? As a successful school principal? I guess one of the main problems, you really don't know what you're going to do each day. Each day can be so unstructured. There's things you want to do, you know what you want to do, but there are so many priorities. Education is becoming, I think, increasingly more complex as we go through. Much more accountability now is coming upon principals. Probably less support, more accountability. All of which, it can be a bit like roulette at times, I think, but, common problems? I think the problems keep changing too, so a problem now for me is I know that my staff are with a half cohort, for example, that I'm having to shed staff. And that's a terrible situation for any principal to be in. To actually go through and work out, well, who has to go, who stays.

That's a problem, now, but I know that right at the moment I'm shedding staff, but I also know that in five years time I'm going to be screaming out for teachers because of the changing workforce conditions that a lot of my staff are near retirement. And I'll be looking to build up a school. But I think most of your common problems have been, within a school, all revolve around relationships and people. And doing the right thing by people, helping to sort out their problems, whether it's students, whether it's parents, whether it's staff, or whatever.

So I guess at the heart of it, how you deal with all these problems. But it's also how are you going to solve problems when you've got limited resources, when the ground rules keep changing, when you're being held more accountable for what you do within your role? I don't know. I'd have to think more about that question, Andrew, about what are the common problems. But some of the frustrations for me, for example: I'd like to do more for my students at educational risk, whereas the high as the high school, I've got very limited resources.

Now that's something that I'm committed to wanting to do, need to do, it's the right thing to do, for these kids. But I don't have the resources that I'd like to have available. In fact, my resources are shrinking as the school numbers are decreasing through the off carpet. So it's those sorts of things.

Trying to do as much as you can with a limited set of resources. And I think that's probably the common problem for the government school principal.


Digby: I guess a couple of highlights have been, nominated by my staff for Principal of the Year. That's always great to get some recognition and those sorts of awards. But I guess the biggest rewards are seeing students who have achieved. Actually, one of my biggest rewards was in my last year at Coodinup. I got a phone call out of the blue from a girl called NNNN. Now, NNNN had been one of my students in Port Headland. But NNNN came into my special education class. I had her sister, her sister definitely was intellectually handicapped, but NNNN wasn't. Now, NNNN was an average girl. And the family just consisted of NNNN and her sister.

And her mother was an alcoholic. They lived in South Headland in this sort of state home in South Headland. And if you go see there, you'll see how flat, hot, and unappealing the place is. And you'd think NNNN didn't really have much of a future. Anyhow, NNNN came into my class and we helped her with her reading and her mathematics, and she did improve, to the extent that she was able to go back into mainstream classes.

And then eventually I left Headland. And then I ran into NNNN a number of years later at the Perth train station, which was the last place I expected to. But she was actually going to TAFE and doing art at TAFE. I thought, "Well, that's very encouraging for me." She'd made the break from Headland. She had got into further education. She had got through high school.

For a kid who you'd say, against all the odds, really, wouldn't have completed high school, wouldn't have gone onto further education. And then finally as I said before, she rang me two or three years ago just out of the blue. I think she had seen my name in the local paper about Principal of the Year awards or whatever.

And she was living in XXX. And she'd married, had two young kids, owned a couple of houses, mostly successful businessperson, had established the first Aboriginal owned plant nursery in Australia. Done all these things. And I guess she'd rung me up just to tell me about it, and I guess because maybe I had some sort of influence over what had happened to her that...

There's a kid who had everything absolutely stacked against her. I had weighed in all the odds, and I guess that's the most power of the education and what it can do for lives. And that's ... She'd found things out, like who her father was. She never knew who her father was until just a few years ago. And it was really going from strength to strength, so I guess that sort of thing is very satisfying.

And I guess another satisfying thing for me ... Where was it? Tom Price. Where if we'd had one more student, one more year twelve to make 20. We would have been the top government school, based on the TEE results for that year. And again, that was a result that came about because of the Government teachers' commitment to these students.

But again, these were students who, if you had seen them at year nine, you would have said no. Unlikely, they won't do any good at the TEE. But just the way the school developed, these kids did exceptionally well at TEE. Then we would have been the top government school. Who would have believed it? And I guess it's those sorts of things that you're in education for.


Digby: Hard to say, but look after yourself. And I guess the biggest lesson for me was, goes back to the mid-90's, or the early 90's, in fact when I was an aspiring leader. And the district superintendent at the time, the district director was YYYY and his wife GGGG was a lecturer at ECU. Anyhow, they put together this course for aspiring school leaders. Ahead of their time, you'd have to say. Anyhow, they were running this course and we'd meet up for a weekend. I forget where it was, somewhere, out in the back of, somewhere. And these people from ECU would come out and talk to us and what have you. And there was one guy who was devoted to the principal-ship, he devoted his life to the principal-ship. He was a primary school principal.

But the example he gave to us was that's all he did, was being a principal. Long hours after school had finished, going in on the weekend, all that sort of thing. His life was consumed by being a school principal, which it can be. But then he developed cancer, and he was looking for support from his family. And he was a bit shocked because his son didn't really want to have too much to do with him through this time. Mainly because he felt that now his father wanted him, but when he wanted his father, his father had just been work, work, work.

And so to me, I think yes, you've got to put things like family first. You've got to have a balanced, healthy approach to being a principal. Because when you do look at the research and you do look at service surveys, inside the Principals' Association, yes a lot of principals do retire and then die. And I think you do have to look after yourself. It can be a very, very stressful job. And at the end of the day it's just a job, and that's not something that's worth killing yourself for.

So I think you want to be a good principal, you want to be a successful principal, but I think you do have to look after yourself. And make sure that you are number one, that you do stay fit and healthy, that you do put time into your own family and that you do get your priorities right. Because a job, it's an important job. But it's not the be-all and end-all.

How can current principals and/or educators aspiring to become successful School Principals contact you?

Digby: I guess the best way is going to be through email or telephoning me. I think these days you can pretty much Google any principal and you'll find where they are.

Andrew: Thank you Digby. It's been a pleasure and a very enjoyable experience for me to have listened to your views on leadership experiences. And you're, I sense that you are very well read. You tend to stay up with material but you're still a person of your own mind and you draw a lot on your common sense or on your own experiences. I have no doubt that any aspiring principal that has been lucky enough to have heard your responses will have gained much from your thoughts.

So ends another in the series, "What it Takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary." Until next time, this is Andrew Belotti signing off, and remember to, Let Your Spirit Run Free.

MAUREEN LORIMER PRINCIPAL APPLECROSS SENIOR HIGH SCHOOL

Good afternoon. This is Andrew Belotti with another new series, "What it Takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary". It is a brilliantly sunny Wednesday afternoon in early September and I am sitting with Ms. Maureen Lorimer, principal of Applecross Senior High School, a school of 1200 students and a staff of approximately 135 teachers. Applecross Senior High School is located in Applecross, a southern suburb of the city of Perth. Mrs. Lorimer has kindly agreed to be interviewed for the continuing series, "What it Takes to be a Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary".

Ms. Lorimer, what is good about being a School Principal?

Maureen: Working with a group of people who have a common purpose that is to provide students with knowledge and understanding in range of learning areas and of course, working with young people. That is probably the best things about being a school principal.


Maureen: OK. Mine most probably wasn't the normal road. I wanted something to do with art so I went to WAIT and did graphic design. At the end of which I decided that it wasn't going to be a career in graphic design for me here in West Australia. So, second choice was to teach education. So, I went up to secondary teacher's college and did my fourth year there which was regarded as my fourth year. So, came out four year trained visual arts teacher. So I have been...Lots of opportunities for me came up around the stage I guess and I was always prepared to take those.

Went to the country, had quite a number of students in the country and worked in a variety of settings. District High Schools, Senior High Schools in the North-West, in the Wheatbelt. So I was just always interested in the next challenge. So I guess that is what my road to becoming a school principal was.

That was never what I had in the...my insight I guess. I have never thought that is, where I was heading. It was just that I was always interested in the next challenge. So, it took me from being a deputy principal in the District High School back into, Head of Learning area or head of art and then from there, I went to deputy principal of a Senior High School.

And then eventually, principal, but as I say no clear path at the beginning, but it is quite a traditional pathway when we look back on it.


Maureen: I think most probably the most important is that you like young people. There is a sense of humor and should know that it is important to be flexible and adaptable.


Maureen: Don't sit still. Seek out opportunities and engage in new challenges as I presented.


Maureen: In my opinion, it is an endless journey. There is always something new to learn. In my last role, I began to feel more comfortable in my role after the first four years I think. But then I came here to Applecross and I think it has taken me at least another three years to get that feeling of being proficient again as a school leader. Not that I feel that proficient, I'm here at the end of it, but it is just a continuing journey.


Maureen: I would think so. The ability to adapt, collaborate, embrace new challenges, enjoy working with a variety of people, traits essential to all work environment.


Maureen: I think that depends on the individual. Personally, I found that my journey through the various roles that lead to my principalship prepared me for being a school principal.


Maureen: Yes. I always encourage people to pursue their passion and in fact, means that it will take them to different locations. I believe that they should do that. I had a person here last year who was really actively seeking promotion and was trying to find a job in the city and he was was not being successful in getting to interviews. That was at level four. He was level three. So, I encouraged him to think a little bit wider and apply for principalships in the country area. So bypass level four, go straight to level six. And he did that and he was successful. My personal view on that is that he just sort of had to think a little bit outside the square, that if you're really passionate about it and you believe you have the skills to do that, then reach out and take the opportunity that presents.


Maureen: My personal view is that I had to make an agreement with myself to enjoy the journey, no matter what.


Maureen: There's a number of those things that can get in the way. I think communication with the wider school community, staffing issues, that can be just mundane things like turnover, retirements, replacement of staff. Resourcing in a big Senior High School can be a real issue. And the curriculum, the changing curriculum, currently the National Agenda. So, all of those things I think are common problems that in all, it doesn't matter if you're in a District High School or in a Primary School, they're common to all of those areas.


Maureen: At my previous school, a different sort of school, it was changing the community perception about their local High School. So, that was a challenge but when we were successful in doing that, that was a real highlight. And at that same school, seeing a student be successful, to be nominated and then go on the Exchange tour overseas. So, that was just a very personal thing where I've encouraged that student to be involved. And I think, at that same school, working with staff to implement change, responding to the needs of the school community and as a whole group we really did work successfully to bring about important changes to help that school.

At this current school it's quite different and so being part of such a diverse school community here at Applecross is just fantastic. And celebrating the successes of the special programs here, we've got specialist tennis and gifted and talented visual arts. So, that's just a real pleasure. Community involvement in all aspects of the school, that's a real highlight here at Applecross.

And I think at both schools, something that I just enjoy all of the time is attending the graduation ceremonies and talking to the students at those ceremonies. Seeing kids we perhaps, we didn't expect to get there and just really enjoying their success on that night that they finally got through their 12 years of schooling.

Just following on from that, those comments that you just made in relation to that question, how much time does it take, like outside of the normal school hours?

Maureen: Well, that is an interesting one. I don't think you can put really a time limit on it. I think most principals would be working a 10-12 hour day but it can vary and my advice to anyone aspiring to be a principal is to be prepared to put in the hours but always keep that balance as well. Make the most of the opportunities when you can have some downtime

and then know that maybe it's the next day, you'll be there 'til 10:00 at night. I'm lucky here that our special art program runs on a Saturday morning, so I often come in here on a Saturday morning to work so I can see the kids at the same time and get some work done and then it's good all the way around.

The reason I'm going to bring this question up, is that lots of principals who made comment of that and you mentioned the word "balance", but what do you do to stay reasonably fit and energetic?

Maureen: I get up at 05:30 each morning and go for a walk So I get my half an hour walk in first thing in the morning because if I don't do it then, I won't do it in the evening. And then I go to the gym twice a week and I'd like to go more but I do get there twice a week.

How can current principals or educators aspiring to be successful School Principals contact you?

Maureen: They can check out our school website and see my email address and the phone. So...

Andrew: Thank you, Maureen. Thank you for your time and thoughtful responses to questions aspiring principals wanted asked. I have enjoyed listening to views on leadership and what it takes to get there as a learning journey. I have no doubt that any aspiring principals who have been lucky enough to have heard your responses would have gained much from your thoughts.

So ends another in the series, "What It Takes To Be A Successful School Principal - Primary or Secondary". Until next time, this is Andrew Belotti signing off; and remember to, Let Your Spirit Run Free.

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