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http://www.mastersofthefaith.com

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TRANSCRIPT


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Nicholas Kusmich: Hey, everyone, this is Nicholas Kusmich, founder of the SOZO Commission and

the EQUIP Academy, and creator of the “Masters of the Faith” series, where you

could learn from and be mentored by the foremost leaders and authorities in

the Christian world. And today’s guest is Roberts Liardon. Now Roberts is an

author, a public speaker, a spiritual leader, a church historian and humanitarian.

He has authored over 54 books and has sold over 7 million books worldwide

which have now been translated to more than 50 different languages and he’s

known internationally having ministered in over 112 countries. Now he was also

twice voted Outstanding Young Man in America and his life has literally taken

him around the world to be hosted by presidents and kings, political leaders,

religious leaders. So Roberts, thanks so much for taking time to be with us on

the call today.

Roberts Liardon: It’s good to be with you and look forward to it.

Nicholas Kusmich: Absolutely. So now, before we actually get into anything and I know you have to

deal with this question all the time and I know the answer, but for the sake of

our listeners today, can you explain the ‘s’ on the end of your name and why it’s

‘Roberts’ and not ‘Robert’?

Roberts Liardon: Alright, I’ve been doing that for 46 years of life so it’s a common question. My

name is Roberts Liardon and the ‘s’ comes from Oral and Evan Roberts, the

great evangelists. My parents were part of the beginning of Oral Roberts

University in 1965. And I was born in 1966 and I was the first baby born of the

student body and so Oral and Evan wanted to help name the first girl and the

first boy, and I was the first boy so I got his last name so they called me Kenneth

Roberts Liardon so that’s how the ‘s’ got to my name Roberts.

Nicholas Kusmich: And you’ve been just using Roberts ever since then?

Roberts Liardon: Ever since. I guess when a guy name Oral gives your name, that’s would you’re

called by and that’s what I grew up being known as Roberts. For a while in

school, I always named myself Robert, but then actually I got into public

speaking, I put the ‘s’ back on it and then the explanation continues.


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Nicholas Kusmich: Okay, now when someone looks at your history and what you’ve accomplished I

mean you do have quite the accolades and a great resume, but can you take us

back before all the books were written, before all the awards were given, before

your international ministry and can you give us a little bit of an insight on really

how this all came about for you, was it something that you were thrust into? Did

you just have a dream one day to do what you’re doing now and start chasing

that and how did all that unfold for you?

Roberts Liardon: Well, I think my personal story which start with my family. I was raised mainly

by my mother, my grandmother and then eventually my step father. And they

were Christian people so I grew up in a Christian family. And my grandparents

were ministers and so I grew up around that type of environment and so I was

not a young man that did not know the Lord. I was sometimes jokingly saying I

was one of those guys that was born Christian and always remembered being

Christian. So I do like that but then one day, I had inner feeling and a visitation

that God wanted me to do something for him with my life more than just to be

a nice Christian that went to church and worked to the church. And so as that

vision grew, it began to take on different shapes and forms into what I do today.

So I don’t know how deep you want me to get with that response but so that’s

the answer. I can go a little bit deeper, how would you like to go.

Nicholas Kusmich: Yeah, maybe a little bit deeper because I’m assuming there’s a lot of people

who are listening on the call today and they’re seeing everything that you’ve

accomplished and they too have that vision to accomplish something for the

Lord and whatever stream of ministry or life that takes them. And they might be

just wondering, what do I need to do or what lessons can I learn from someone

who’s been there and done that so that I could start moving my life in that

direction?

Roberts Liardon: I would say the thing that I begin with after accepting how I was raised as a

positive and not a negative so I didn’t run from it. So I was one of those guys

that accepted my instructions and trainings and parental guidance and church

life as a positive. Some people I guess went to churches or ministries that were

boring for them or didn’t connect but it connected for me. I made a decision


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once I felt like God wanted me to do something that was out of the ordinary

everyday-American guy life and work for him, I never questioned it so when God

called me, that was plan A to plan Z so I don’t have a plan B. So I don’t have a

way to escape. So I’m in this lock, stock and barrels you would say and to me,

that is one thing that I would put down that some helped me stay in what I’m

doing that I didn’t have a second plan. That if this doesn’t work out then I’ll go

that because normally in any career choice or any ministerial choice, it’ll come

times when the winds are adverse to you, when things aren’t working, things

are contrary and then you have a plan B or a way to escape, most people will

take it. And when you don’t have a plan B, you’ll go through the storm, it makes

you stronger, you don’t like it but it does make you stronger and you win. And

so that was what happened to me and that I did not let the world around me

give me an opinion about me. My opinion about myself was formed by the

bible, by my prayers and by family. And so my affirmation did not come from

everybody else. So I didn’t look for the public to say, oh, you’re great! Oh you’re

good! And that’s nice but in the beginning, no one applauds you until they’ve

seen your success. Until they see something they go, wow, I like that. And then

they all want to join the bandwagon and support you and pray for you and the

picture taken with you but you have to have a certain amount of being your

own cheerleader without being arrogant in the beginning and keep that as you

grow because if you listen to too much of the public, you could get arrogant and

go off track. So that would be the first few things I would say.

Nicholas Kusmich: And speaking of kind of early successes and people recognizing you, maybe you

can talk briefly about the first book you wrote I Saw Heaven which if I’m not

mistaken you actually wrote in your teens and then it ended up selling over 1.5

million copies that became a national bestseller. Did that have an important role

in launching you out into what you’re doing today? And can you also maybe

even mention about what this book is about and how all that came about?

Roberts Liardon: The first book I wrote when I was 17, published when I was 18 and it was a little

book called I Saw Heaven which was the story of an experienced I had as a child

of experiencing a portion or a part of heaven and recognizing my call at that

time, in that experience. And so I never wanted to tell the story or write the


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story because what I didn’t want people to think I was crazy or I was doing

something to just get some type of notoriety. But the Lord did speak to me and

said, I want you to write that book and tell the people I showed you because it

would be an evangelistic until even though you’re not an evangelist, it will bend

more souls than you will in person. So with that type of inner knowing, I wrote

the book and it sold into in all the language together, more than 1.5 - made in

the first year and a half it was 1.5 million. So it did launch me into an awareness

with the public. When I wrote that book I was shocked, how fast it sold, how

much people went after it so it did help launch me out into the public

awareness.

Nicholas Kusmich: And did those copies sell by something specifically you had done or literally you

just published it, word got out and then it spread like a wildfire...

Roberts Liardon: I self published it first. The first 20 thousand, I self published. And then a

publisher came to me, Harrison House at those times said, we want the book

and so I negotiated a publishing deal and with their arm of distribution it was

able to reach further than just what I did. But they were surprised that it sold 20

thousand in just the first I think 3 or 4 months. And that was just with myself

and that was just because of word of mouth and that’s how they heard it. And

then it went ballistic into the charts and it still sells quite rapidly every month.

It’s one of those books like you just told me, it’ll win souls faster than you will

and more than you will in your life. So that’s hardly ever talked about much. And

you give the story. When the pastor or somebody asked me to but it just goes

out there and works and win souls and it also helps people know when

someone has died and gone to heaven was like. We read the scriptures and also

other people like myself have a story about what they saw when they were

there. It helps people find comfort to know that it’s not just a bunch of clouds

and naked babies feeding you grapes. And that’s the way I comment about it.

Nicholas Kusmich: Sure. Sure now so that seemed like it was a key breakthrough point for you early

on in your life. Do you have other things that spanned out in your life that were

breakthrough or break out points or some tipping points or “Aha!” moments


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that really helped shape you and who you are today. And can you tell us a little

bit about how maybe those came about.

Roberts Liardon: Well the first one would be the I Saw Heaven experience at 8 and then when I

was 12-1/2, I had a vision of Jesus walking into my house. And in that vision, he

told me to study the lives of these generals to know why they succeeded and

why some failed because there will come a generation who will need to know

these things and if I would be faithful to do what he asked, I would be used to

help that generation understand how to be more successful in life in ministry

and that I would be able to help recover gifts and restore gifts that had been

lost in people’s lives and so that was a defining moment for me number 2. And

then after that...

Nicholas Kusmich: Twelve years old?

Roberts Liardon: I was 12-1/2, yes.

Nicholas Kusmich: Wow.

Roberts Liardon: What that meant to me, was that I need to study the lives of different Christian

leaders that were great influence in the world or revival leaders, not just what

they did but how they lived. And so I began to rebook and find people who

knew some of them in person and I begin this whole life of research which I still

do today. So that was a great defining moment in my life.

Nicholas Kusmich: Wow. And then since that point, at 12-1/2 you’ve been pursuing that and in

putting that material together and making it available to the public. I wrote a

series called God’s Generals which is a chronicle that have 12 volumes in the

series. I’ve got four volumes done. The set I’m working on now and they are

surprised to me they are successful all over the world. I keep being surprised

about what God says but I guess I should just be comfortable in it. I never

thought people would want to, as I was saying read a history book, but I guess I

write in a way where it’s different than what most people view as history

because I write the good, bad and the ugly. I do it for my positive review.

Everybody I write about, if they were alive today, I would go and be in their


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meetings and I put money in the bucket and support them. No matter what they

were like when you look at these great people, you realize every one of them

whether Pentecost or Evangelical, did something that would disqualify them

according to their social and religious culture at their time. God didn’t leave

them so that always makes people that we’re talking to and people reading the

book realize that there’s hope for them no matter what they have or have not

done. Sister Aimee McPherson the founder of the Foursquare denomination,

she was married three times. Her first husband died. She married two other

times and was divorced. And she died in the 1940s. Now back then, divorce was

almost impartible sin for a Christian person let alone a Christian leader as a

woman. So when you read that and she would have built this great church, a 25

thousand that the Fousquare denomination and God obviously worked, forgive

her life and restoration and kept believing in her and kept going. So it does not

matter if a group does not like you and kick you out. Being kicked out of a group

does not mean you’re kicked out of a kingdom. If God is still with you and you

still work the word and you have a contrite heart, you can succeed. So you may

have to give some new friends but you don’t get to get a new God. And so when

you read these stories about these people’s humanity because all humans are

broke and the whole world because of sin had the brokenness. Brokenness

shows up at different times in different people’s lives even in preachers,

politicians, good people and so if how you overcome Proverb says, you may fall

but the righteous bounce back 7 times. So keep bouncing back and don’t give up

like the Lord told me one time when I was going through a crisis, I said these

people don’t like me, they’re leaving my church. He goes how many people are in

the world. I said about 7 billion. He goes, forgive those folks and go meet the rest

of the 7 billion. And I think sometimes we focus on the few that don’t like us

that may come back in time and some may never come back into being a part of

your support or positive person. Love them, release them, go meet the rest of

the world and don’t die over a few negative people.

Nicholas Kusmich: I see the point. Even along those lines and in the life of Roberts Liardon and all

that you’ve done have there been any – I don’t like to use the word failures or

mistakes but were there situations that you had to learn from and things that


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maybe didn’t go the way that you had planned or if someone to ask you another

way, maybe if you were to do it all over again, will there be certain things you’d

want to do differently or avoid. Can you shed some light on to that for all the

people who might be on this journey?

Roberts Liardon: We need three hours for that question. There’s things about my private life.

There’s things about my public life we can discuss. For one in ministry I became

successful as a teenager. At that time was 19 or 20, I had a national profile that

was growing and international had began and so I would probably go back and

put a lot of older seasoned people around me in my office, in my church. One of

the things that I think looking back now I pastured for 20 years, Irvine California

that was one of the fastest growing churches in the ‘80s. And it grew to several

thousand and I had too many young people in pivotal positions so I would put

older seasoned people, I would go out and find them now and put them on step

because that type of person keeps stability in departments, in the church, in the

atmosphere because they’ve lived longer, they’ve experienced the worst of

things don’t cause them to rattle or react emotionally. The first time you go

through something is dramatic. Second time, not as dramatic. Third time, no big

deal. When you’ve got young people or young experienced ministers, they react

to different things and when you’re very high profile you get all kinds of winds

and adversities that would be one.

Nicholas Kusmich: That’s an excellent point because especially nowadays and with the advent of

YouTube, it seems that there’s a lot of young ministers including myself who are

really making a name or achieving some sort of ministry success early in their

life and then you also see a lot of them fall by the way side because they aren’t

surrounded by some key influential people and some people with some wisdom

over the years to help them get through these tough times.

Roberts Liardon: So I think they would be some that I would do different and then personally I’ve

had moral failure in my life that I had to recover from and so that would be a big

thing that I would go back and redo for sure. And when people go through one

of those moral crisis, you’re a public figure that’s a book and a half because

when you go through that you got to go through your personal why did this


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happen or how stupid was the abyss and you got to learn to at one time forgive

yourself and forgive the public for the way they react so the good and the bad

doesn’t affect you in your healing process because sometimes the reaction of

the public could be very detrimental if you don’t understand the public and how

they respond to you so what I would learn out of that personal crisis is when

you are exhausted, when you’re emotionally and you’re tired, go home and get

out of the day-to-day processes of the pull, the nag and the demand so that you

can recharge and protect yourself from just the normal temptations of life. And

so now in my life I’m very much aware of where I’m strong, where I’m weak and

when I feel certain things, there are certain things that I have vowed to do that I

do today. And so I would say if people go through a crisis, it’s not over. You can

live again. It’s happened in the bible. It’s happened in church history. It’s

happened today. It happened [unintelligible 0:17:56] and so if something has

happened in a person’s life, learn from the mistake, forget the emotional

damage, let God heal you, get up and go back to your [unintelligible 0:18:07]

produce fruit and keep on going because God does not leave you at the time of

trouble. He becomes your present help at the time of trouble. He will deliver

you, Psalm 21 says and he will put honor back on you if you let him work in your

life. So that’s what I learned. Probably those two things, I would say, your

question is, put the right kind of people, my staff in my church they would help

keep it stable no matter what comes good or bad because sometimes success

can kill you, not just the problem of negativity. And so I would say wisdom

comes from experience and comes from those who have lived long. And then

because you’re successful, you have to be careful with those who want to be

your friend because they can write your name, money or they want to come in

and use you as a springboard into what they want and sometimes they talk

good, they flatter and you have to use experience as a part of your discernment,

advice from those you know that really hold you in their heart correctly as well

as the gifts of the spirit to help you discern what is right or wrong and not

everybody has the right to be in your ministry as a leader or as a worker or does

anyone have a right to speak into your lives. So let God and wisdom have those

select people hold them fast, go to them, spend time with them, socialize with

these people so that you have the right type of camaraderie.


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Nicholas Kusmich: That’s great advice. Great advice. On a little bit of a side note, I believe I read in

an interview somewhere that you had made the statement, ‘I’m a follower of

Jesus but I’m not necessarily a follower of Christianity and that really rings true

for me but can you tell the listeners what you meant by that?

Roberts Liardon: Well, I’m sure some people got nervous with that question. But I’ve been in

Christianity my whole life, I’m 46 years old now and I’ve been a minister for over

30 years. I’ve preached my first about 13. And so the comment that I made

there is Jesus is a lot easier to relate to, obey and work with than the system of

religion built around his name, his message and his commands. So that to me is

where I think we’re losing so many of the people like in America, according to

Barnum a few years ago, 30 thousand Americans were leaving the Catholic and

Protestant churches a month. I don’t know if that is still the number or it’s less

or more, but back then it was happening. And I thought 30 thousand a month

was their estimation, you can’t keep doing that for 20 years until there’s a

problem. And I think what’s happening is a lot of people are tired of the

damnation message of religion. God so loved the world, he gave. He’s a lover,

not a hater. And so you have to separate Jesus sometimes from the system of

religion, attach yourself to him. And so that’s what I was trying to say is that this

religious dogma, hostility, church monism like forgiveness, restoration, hope, is

for the birds, I don’t want to have to do with that. Jesus came to save and to live

and to give an easy yolk and that is light and he is not a condemner Paul said it

in Romans, It’s the goodness of God that brings people to make a change in their

heart, their mind and their behavior not the fear of hell or damnation preaching

so what I hear that I turn off the TV or somebody that’s preaching like that in a

church I walk out. I’m no longer going to sit and get beat up or damned by

people who don’t know how to interpret the scriptures right. There’s enough

hostility without me going to church happening so I guess I’m a new voice

against it and I don’t mind saying I’m against it.

Nicholas Kusmich: You eluded to your bestselling book and DVD series God’s Generals which at this

point you were saying you have four books in that series. You have gone

through those one, you have The Reformers, The Revivalist and the most recent

one that came out was the Healing Evangelist. Now, there may be some people


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on the call today who are not familiar with your work in that area. I know you

mention that when you were 12-1/2, the command of God came to you to start

chronicling the lives of Gods’ Generals, can you tell us a little bit then about

what exactly a God’s General series is about and maybe even focus on 1 or 2

that you want to stand out just to give people an idea of what we’re looking at

here with it.

Roberts Liardon: The term God’s Generals comes an interview from an experience I had with the

Lord where he said study lives of my generals and what a God’s general is

someone that God has chosen to influence a nation or the world in such a

significant way that they stand out and what they did actually is to have affect in

the world after they have gone on to heaven is the way I define a general. And

so I’ve written about Pentecost and Evangelicals like Smith Wigglesworth,

Kathyrn Kullman, William Seymour of Azusa Street, John West of the Methodist,

John Knox, Peter Cartwright, Charles Finney, Martin Luther the reformation,

John Whitecliff, I studied the whole gamut of these people. Why did God choose

them? What did they do? How did they live out their call in their life? When

they succeeded, why did they succeed and how they succeed at it? If there was

a mistake of some kind, what was the mistake? What caused it? What can we

learn from it so that’s what the tone of these books are about as I tell you their

life story. For example, in the Human Evangelist, I write about people that God

used to pray for sick people and they would get healed or there were people

that were oppressed by demonic influences and get them free so they could

think and believe and live normal lives. I know that not everything is caused by

devil but some things are. Counseling won’t fix a demon, you got to cast the

devil out of the person in Jesus’ name. So we deal what these people like in this

last book we deal with Oral Roberts, Lester Sumrall, George Jeffreys of the Elim

movement in England, Charles and Frances Hunter and FF Bosworth, and these

are not the only Healing Evangelists I just picked these ones. For example, Oral

Roberts would be somebody that I think most of us would be aware of in North

America. When he was a young man, he was dying of tuberculosis and God

healed him. And his healing and salvation, the Lord told him to take God’s

healing power to his generation which he did a good job at. Now some people


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make fun of him but he has laid hands on more than 3 million people and

prayed for them and saw all types of people being healed for minor ailments to

major significant problems. He built the first charismatic university in the world

called Oral Roberts University in Tulsa. He helped pioneer Christian television

and when you read his life, he was one of those guys who begin to also help

change some of the theology of the Protestants especially the Pentecostal

groups like he would say God is a good God, the devil is a bad devil. Well, people

didn’t realize that would be controversial back then because they didn’t know

that God was good and the devil was bad, they got it all messed up. He was also

one that he saw in the Pentecostal church that there was more women going to

church than men so in the 1950s he began a campaign to believe God for 100

thousand men to get saved and spirit filled and go to church. He broke that

number so he began to be a barrier breaker in his life. And so he is one of those

guys who we can look at now to learn from some of his mistakes. One of his

sons, Ronnie, his oldest son, committed suicide and died. He would controversy

for sometimes saying things that the media took as extreme statements or and

understand what he meant because when you’re a public figure you can make a

comment and you’d be so sincere about it but it sounds so crazy that you get in

the middle of a conflict or a controversy or a scandal which he had those so

some people he’s just after the money or the death threat Oral Roberts because

he felt like he didn’t finish this one job that if he couldn’t finish it, his job was

done and God would call him to heaven. They called it a death threat fund

raising ploy which knowing by the Roberts that really wasn’t what he meant but

hearing what he said, you could see how folks could view it that way. So there’s

other things you could learn about his life but good about Oral was that he was

married to the same woman his whole life and marriage thing with Oral and

Evan was a great great thing about his successes. He married the right woman.

She loved him. He loved her and they worked together in their family, in the

ministry and he used to come to our church toward the end of his life and

preached. And she’d be on the front row next to me and he was starting to tell

us story and she would say out loud now Oral, that’s not correct. And right in

the middle of the sermon, she go it was not in North Carolina, it was in

Nebraska or some other state. And so he would say, why don’t you come and


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give the details and I’ll give my part. So they were so cute together. And I asked

her one time, I said, Evan, what it’s like to live with Oral Roberts? And she

stopped for a moment, she goes stressful. And so I said, that was probably the

best description of living with a man like Oral Roberts with faith building all

these big projects in TV and the pressures of media but that would be the way

we talk about him in the Generals’ books.

Nicholas Kusmich: And then I know some of the Generals especially Healing Evangelist, you knew

personally, you were involved in some of these people’s lives for example

someone like Lester Sumrall, could you maybe talk about what your experience

personally with one of these generals, what was is it like and what we could

agree and learn from that type of experience?

Roberts Liardon: Lester Sumrall was my spiritual father. I was with him very much almost 3 or 4

times, if not more a year toward the end of his life. We preached together in

Europe and America. And we’ve spend time with each other. He was what I

recall an apostolic gift of apostle of our day. He traveled around the world. The

latter part of his life, he spent mentoring and helping young pastors. He became

successful or famous for the great deliverance in the Philippines in the 1950s.

He was pastor in the church in South Indiana and God told him to go to Manila.

So he packed up his bags, his wife and his three boys, and moved to Manila to

build a church there. At that time, the Philippines was mainly a Catholic-

controlled country. Protestantism was a minor there and he was one of the first

protestant churches there and he was going very difficult. And there was a

deliverance that happened of a young girl that had been put in prison that was

being bitten by an evil spirit, I know this sounds crazy for some people but it’s a

historical fact, you can go to the Manila read the newspapers and talk to people

that saw and was there, because I’ve done it. And long story short, he went to

the prison and bound up that evil spirit and stopped it. And got her delivered

and when that happened, it was news all over the Philippines and the mayor of

Manila said what can we do to thank you from destroying this evil that caused

fear in Manila. Sumrall asked for the city square for 6 weeks free. And so the

mayor gave him the 6 weeks free of the big square in Manila and at the end of

six weeks, over 150 thousand people had been born again. And so that birth the


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protestant thrust of revival in Manila today. Now being around him, Sumrall to

talk to him, he was very direct and very we use the word gruff personality so if

you didn’t know how to handle him, you can almost think he was a little bit

mean. But I enjoyed.

Nicholas Kusmich: He was very close with Wigglesworth correct?

Roberts Liardon: He actually received a portion of brother Wigglesworth mantle, so he was close

with Wigglesworth and a great man by the name Howard Carter that built the

first Pentecostal bible school in England. So if you know Wigglesworth

personality, you can see Sumrall the same way, because I think Wigglesworth

was kinda gruff, too. The way he talked and dealt with people. And so Sumrall

had a little bit that type of thing as well. And so he would say some times my

happiness is not determined by what people say about me nor is my happiness in

somebody else’s head. My happiness is from God inside of me and what I’d do to

obey him. He knew how to stay happy and direct. He was not scared to tell you

the right or the wrong. He would tell me sometimes, he goes I preach in the

1950, it didn’t work then and it won’t work now so don’t preach it like that. So

you don’t give a spiritual father that – I’ve always said Oh, if it didn’t work for

you, fine, I’ll drop it, I’ll preach in a different way. It was very enjoyable but it

was always entertaining and the older we got, the stronger he got physically. In

the sense that he kept traveling, he kept going. So he can wear some of those

young guys out. He was a very good man. And I think about Sumrall was he had

enough faith just to do unusual things like buying that TV station in the south

when he had no money. And the money came in. So Oral Roberts and Brother

Sumrall and these guys, they were what we would call prosperity preachers. I

know when we mentioned that everybody thinks as a guy after my money and

that’s really not what a prosperity preacher is. The Book of Prosperity Preacher

is someone that believes in God wants to help everybody including the church

and ministries with their financial lives so they can have a quality of life and do

what they’re called to do. So to me that’s what a prosperity preacher is not one

that milks some money or merchandises the people or emotionally manipulates

them. But through the word inspires people to do what the word says to work

with God law's of prosperity and so Oral Roberts used to say, if you have a need,


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plant a seed. That is scriptural and Sumrall was the same way. Sumrall would

give money to four missions and do things and would create harvest for him to

buy this TV stations or radio stations that he built. So I guess the story comes to

mind about Oral as a changed personalities for a moment. He was building a

hospital there in Tulsa and he needed another million for that 5 million

something to finish it. Well whether he need 5 dollars or 5 million, if you don’t

have you don’t have it. And so one of my friends, Norval Hayes was teaching at

the chapel service at the university and Oral was waiting to take him out to

lunch afterwards and he said I need to do this now. Before they even got to the

restaurant in the car, he gave the guys his last 100 thousand dollars I have in the

ministry, take it. So we can get that seed in the ground so we can create the

harvest to take care of the last million dollars. Well, he got it. So they weren’t

just those who took, they were ones that do practice what they preached.

Behind the scenes and would see it. I asked Oral Roberts the first time, how

much money have you raised in your lifetime for the gospel and he said, at that

time he was 87 years old, 1.500 billion. So one man named Oral Roberts that

was part Cherokee Indian raised a billion and a half for the gospel. But you can

say what you want about the guy but he knew where the money went, the

millions that were saved and prayed for in the university and all that he did

that’s where it went so he was a great example of faith and how to use money

for the gospel.

Nicholas Kusmich: Now I know with God’s Generals here, are tons of people that you focus through

all the four books that are out right now. In fact, I remember it was probably

used about 10 years ago when I got my hands on the first copy of God’s

Generals, I was in Nova Scotia Canada. I’d walk into a Christian bookstore and I

heard about God’s Generals, never had my hands on a copy so I picked up the

book, I looked at it I thought this is something that I really want but I don’t have

any money on me right now to get it. So I put the book down. I walked out of

the store and when I got back to my hotel room that night, the book was on my

bed, I have no idea how it get there and nobody was with me, I’m not sure even

the bookstore manager, even if they saw me have it, I have no idea how they

could even locate the hotel that I was staying in. And that was kind of my


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introduction to God’s Generals and I have been hooked ever since. But what I

appreciate about it is like you said, you’re not just talking about the good in

their lives but the good, bad and the ugly. So if we’re to look at all the generals

in general, what would you say or maybe 2 or 3 common denominators that

really helped to make these people who they were. There was a takeaway for

someone on the call who was listening and to say well what you’ll learn from

the Generals in general I know they all had different mentors and different

experiences, what would you say or maybe two or three of the common

denominators that really attributed to making them who they were.

Roberts Liardon: I would say the first one was they knew who they were in Christ and what their

job was for Christ so they did not go into their ministries whatever it was,

praying with the sick, been to church, evangelism, whatever it was, I wonder if I

should do this, they had absolute 100 percent confidence that they were

Christ’s property and they were to work for Jesus in the way they did. So I would

say if we’re going to look at success, they’d be the first one to know who you

are in Christ and know what your job is and that does not change. You make it

enhanced but it will stay the same. And then secondly, they married the right

person. A lot of them that had mistakes did but the ones that didn’t marry the

right person seemed to have a greater influence in the years so I would say, the

ones married the right people please born again, who you marry and say I’m

going to live and build my life with is probably the next significant decision of

your life so go slow. You can always speed up the love and the romance once

you know for sure and like Oral Roberts’ life you got to know spirit, soul and

body. You got to make sure that you’re compatible in those three arenas. And

then thirdly, they believed that God would finance what he was doing for them.

It’s amazing that these people like Oral but even others from the past, even

Martin Luther, when you look at their life and what they went through, they had

a confidence that God would take care of them through the good times and the

adverse times. And so those would be three things you can always put in their

prayer life, their private time of knowing God’s voice and obeying that inner

voice would give you about four things.


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Nicholas Kusmich: That’s important. And then how about on the flipside then, I know that in

reading some of the General’s stories, you hear some pretty incredible things

and some things that really went wrong in some people’s lives. Can you maybe

talk about the two or three things that we could learn from them from their

shortcomings and stuff that we should be aware of and avoid in our lives?

Roberts Liardon: I would say number one thing that causes most people to make mistakes or

some were to quit altogether is exhaustion. I know that sounds crazy sometimes

to people but when people are tired, they do things or permit things that they

normally would not do and when you look at crisis moments in people’s lives in

ministry even in politics and other places of society, tired people make mistakes.

So I would say Daniel said, that it then became to wear out the saints. So it can’t

knock you out by scaring you or bolstering winds of adversity in the beginning,

he’ll do the wear you down like he did with Samson, like he tried to do with

Joseph, daily they came with their words to wear them down to vex their soul.

So be aware of tiredness. When you’re tired, stop. Go home. Don’t go to the

beach. Don’t go on a holiday without your family or your friends. Go back to

where you got the security of your family, your friends that can protect you

while you’re tired, who love you and build that gaps so be aware of tiredness.

Tiredness causes mental problems, physical problems and spiritual problems. So

second thing is stay in the office that God puts you in. If God called you to be a

pastor and did not tell you to be a evangelist, don’t trouble that much. Stay in

that church and be there most of the time. A lot of guys, they get bored

sometimes doing the same things day in and day out. And so they try to change

offices at will. Stay how God’s called you. Now God may enhance you or change

your season of life but makes sure it’s the Lord and not you. It’s significant. The

third thing is to remember when you are in ministry, you’re already in the

position of influence. You don’t have to leave the ministry to go be a politician

or some type of other civic leader to be an influence of society. If you will deal

with the ministry with power and with compassion and passion of your own

heart, you’ll influence people and your community in the world more than you

ever will by trying to be in a natural power position. So those would be three


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things I would say because try to become other things that people God’s call you

to be a preacher, be a preacher. Don’t be anything else.

Nicholas Kusmich: Now, it seems and this is what I gathered early on 10 years ago when I started

reading God’s Generals: One, that many of the lives of the generals were

intertwined with each other in some way, shape or form and what we would say

they caught each other’s anointing or they were sitting under the mantle with

someone and there was an impartation there. Now, to an average listener, this

might make becoming someone significant in the kingdom almost unachievable

unless they can somehow relocate their lives or come under the anointing of

somebody or something like that so can you maybe comment on this idea of

mentors and anointing, and what the listener can and should take away from

that point?

Roberts Liardon: Well, I think when you read history it seemed like the baton of certain types of

mantles, for example, the healing and anointing that Benny Hinn is walking in

right now that we see very dramatically around the world came from Kathryn

Kullman, which came from Amy McPherson, which came from Mother Head.

That’s a particular mantle. That does not mean that the mantle of healing

cannot be expressed to other people in different ways well that’s a very

dominant particular office or mantle that’s out there that seems to have a

national and world influence. You can be affected in the ways that God’s called

you. I saw Kathryn Kullman three times as a little boy. You won’t forget it when

you saw her. And I don’t have that mantle but I’ve been affected by her ministry

so we can be affected by these few peoples anointing that encouraged us, it

may impart a degree of it into our lives where we flow more in healing than we

used to, we’re more affected with it than we used which I would say go to drink

of these rivers, go jump in these rivers and enjoy them. My grandma used to say

that somebody is more of God than you do, don’t criticize them, go where they

learned it and get it. And let God give you the portion that is to be in your life

the way it’s supposed to manifest. So I would say that get up there and be in

these meetings, be a part of these events the best that you can and don’t feel

like you’ve lost so many because you don’t have the big mental, get the portion

or the influence as you came from these ministers.


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Nicholas Kusmich: That’s a good point. And even along these lines, in your opinion, can anybody be

a “General” any believer or do you believe that this is kind of reserved for the

select few and everybody has a part to play but not anyone can have this

worldwide life changing history breaking-type ministry?

Roberts Liardon: Well I think we all going to have a life changing and a breaking ministry in areas

that God gave us. Some are regional, some are national, some are world and for

whatever reason God, in his wisdom, chooses those vessels to be in those type

of influential position. So I do think it is abatable. A lot of people come into

some of these things by just being faithful in what they do day in and day out in

their church and obeying the word and obeying the covenant they have right

now and by being faithful, it keeps growing and God keeps promoting as when it

comes. There are some people God just said, I’ve chosen you from your birth to

be this person. So I think it’s a dual thing, it could be either one. Jack Coe for

example, you don’t see any type of dramatic hit. He got saved in a Nazerene

church, began to be a janitor in the Assembly of God church then eventually as

youth pastor, social pastor, a pastor and then God gave him a healing ministry

and he had a tent that was over 25 thousand. Out of faithfulness, he grew into

that. So it can come dramatically as a word, as a vision or it can come by being

faithful whichever is fine.

Nicholas Kusmich: No, it’s good. And then as we wrap things up a little bit, the average listener on

the call is someone who goes to church, they believe in God, they have dreams

and visions for their life. There’s things that they want to accomplish but maybe

they just kind of feel stuck. They’re stuck in the everydayness of life. They’re

stuck in their jobs or whatever they’re doing and they can see how far off, their

dream or their destiny or maybe this calling that was spoken over them in a

prophetic word or something like God had burst in their heart. If they were just

to come to you and I know you’ve gone through a lot of points already but if

they were just come to you and you were the share from your heart – they

would come to you and say, Roberts if you can mentor me or if you could give

me a few points of advice on how to get from where I am today, to where I need

to be to the fulfillment of my calling. What are some of the things you’d just

share from your heart about that?


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Roberts Liardon: I would say make sure that your prayer life is strong and healthy and your word

life is growing every day. Be a part of a active church in your community, not

one that just sit there and takes care of me, myself and I but it’s out there feed

the hungry, evangelizing, doing things locally and world missions, one that is

challenging you in the word and in the spirit. I would tell you also, you’ve got to

fight the devil. The devil comes in many forms and shapes. He is doesn't always

come as a big hairy dude ready to pounce on you, he can come as lethargy, as

the feeling of disappointment or complacency and I would say do something

every day, even if it is small, to make somebody’s life better. And do something

every day to make the kingdom of God’s presence and the earth stronger. And

when you’re starting doing those things, I think you’ll start working your way

into a a fruit bearing and an active life. Some people go to the wrong church and

you just can’t go to the church that’s conveniently close to your house. You got

to go to church that feeds you, that challenges you and keeps you active. One

that destroys your comfort through passion and activity.

Nicholas Kusmich: Good. Good. And how would you find the balance in terms of the – there’s two

schools of thought. The one school will say, hey, you’ve got to make this happen

yourself. You got to hit the ground. You got to work hard. You got to self

promote. You got to do all these things. The other side would say, Hey, you don’t

do any of that. You just believe and trust God, stay faithful in the little things and

he will open up the doors when he sees fit. Where do you stand on that as a last

piece of advice for someone who’s saying, Okay, what’s my next step? What do I

do or what do I need to lay off maybe in order to just start pursuing these

things?

Roberts Liardon: I say if you’re doing things for the Lord through your church and your

community and doing things like that – that number one has already got you

active. And then I don’t have a problem once you know it’s time for the ministry

to begin to maybe make people aware that you’re available to minister or

available to go to a foreign field and be a missionary, whatever you feel call,

sometimes you do have to stand up a little bit and say, I feel this is happening. I

feel I’m ready and let people be aware. It’s when we get into the whole ministry

is done by self promotion I think is the problem. So I think it’s a little bit of a


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mixture of both if you can do it with – be led by the spirit and be balanced with

it because people won’t know that you’re available unless you tell them and if

you don’t start doing what you ought to do, why would anybody want to have

you anyway because you’ve been doing nothing. So those will be the way I

would say. Be involved in the local church. Start to go mission strips. Start doing

things outside your comfort and at that moment you might be able to say, I feel

like I’m ready. And then talk to your spiritual leaders and ask them what they

could do to help you.

Nicholas Kusmich: Right. Now in wrapping up here, I know Roberts, in the past you started several

bible colleges. You had the Embassy Christian Center. You had your Global

Compassion stuff that you were doing. More recently, you spent the last 3 years

in London. What’s next for you now? What’s on the horizon for you that people

can associate with?

Roberts Liardon: Yes, we just finished out my Kensington temple in London. I’m coming back to

the States on a more permanent basis which means I’ll be traveling more

around the world. I was going to build a bible school - 5th bible school their with

K-team and I’ve just finished filming the first season of our new ministry TV

show called God’s Generals with Roberts Liardon. We are going to go on

television where I can teach the principles and the lives, inspire new generation

to live big, live strong, live loud and go for it as God is telling them through the

lives of these great leaders. And then I’m also just continuing to travel and

preach, and do the humanitarian side of my life and just see what God has. I

know there is a future of me building another church somewhere in the future. I

don’t know when or where but we’ll see when God says Do it, I’ll let you know.

Nicholas Kusmich: Alright. Now, Roberts we’re just about out of time, but before we go, if there

are people on the call today who say, You know what, I just want access to some

of your material or just be involved in some of the stuff that you’re doing. Maybe

get their hands on the first book that we’ve mentioned, I Saw Heaven or maybe

even your latest book God’s Generals The Healing Evangelists, where can you

point people to get that information from you?


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Roberts Liardon: They can probably get those books through Amazon or go to our website which

is www.robertsliardon.com and it will come up. And you can order it at our

website or you just call our office in Sarasota, Florida and we can take the order

and ship it out to you.

Nicholas Kusmich: Okay. And for people who are listening to this Masters of the Faith series, we

will provide links for you to be able to go directly to Roberts site there and grab

those resources. So everyone thank you so much for being on the call today and

for listening in. Like always, we encourage you not just to be hearers of the

word but of course to be doers, and to go ahead and to start putting these

words into action. Roberts, do you have any last words for our listeners before

we go.

Roberts Liardon: Just live loud and live strong and don’t be afraid of anybody.

Nicholas Kusmich: Thanks again everyone for being a part of this episode of Masters of the Faith.

Thank you so much, Roberts, for being with us today so until next time. We wish

you all the best and to have a blessed and a prosperous day.

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