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Forum: GLOBAL / News / Access problems due external topo production Login in to contribute Access problems due external topo production www.8a.nu 20090206 00:00:00 "Marco Troussier, from the French federation FFME, has informed 8a that external guide production like Rockfax copying local production is a threat to local access work. FFME is working hard with access issues but often the external produced topos do not include the last local agreements and could create access problems etc. The equippers and the local topo producer make and update access agreements with the landowner and the local council in many cliffs. These guys are often upset when they meet foreigners with a commercial topo produced abroad. In some cases topos like Rockfax could created big local access roblems, according Troussier. The climbing community should support locally produced topos and local access agreements everywhere in the climbing world. Rockfax is stealing local money and creating access problems. Morality against profit, choose your camp!" Johan Svensson 20090206 03:42:32 This is so onesided, "morality against profit, choose your camp", what is that... There must be a way to work together. Local guides are often hard to get by and perhaps Rock Fax could have a webadress where they present updates on local info. I think that is a resposibility that comes with producing guides! Matt Hall 20090206 04:41:53 It's ridiculous to make this issue so black and white. People need to educate themselves as to local land use agreements and customs. With concern to Rockfax "stealing local money" I think they have every right to compete fairly with local guide book authors. They should conscience enough to include information on access issues etc. but as climbers it is also our duty to inform ourselves and be respectful. jghedge 20090206 08:02:03 " With concern to Rockfax "stealing local money" I think they have every right to compete fairly with local guide book authors." The thing you're not getting is that they're not just "local guide book authors". The people who spent the time and money to develop (bolt) the crags are looking to recoup their costs by selling guides to the area they developed. If Rockfax wants to print guides to crags, then they can go out and bolt their own crags, and print guides for them. There are certainly plenty of new areas to develop. If a friend of yours spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours developing a new crag, would you tell him you have "every right to compete" if you published a guide to it against his wishes? Or would you let him put out the guide so he could get back some of the money he spent developing it? Stefano Varnerin 20090206 09:29:36 I totally agree with jghedge, we're not talking about 2 book authors in competition, but about the local area developer that spend time,energy and a lot of MONEY to bolt cliffs that we can all climbe due his hard work;and about someone who one day came to the cliff,buy the local guide and say "nice spot,i can copy the guide and sell it abroad"..........so who has the right? Alan James 20090206 09:51:44 One of the problems many travelling climbers have when visiting crags in France is getting hold of the local information. The guidebooks cover very small areas and are usually only available in selected locations. The result of this is that climbers either just visit the main popular crags, or they visit the new crags without proper information, which can cause problems if they park in the wrong place, or climb there at the wrong time of year when the crag is closed for some reason. The new Rockfax guides to France aim to help travelling climbers by bringing together lots of small crags, together with the more popular ones, into a few books. The books are being carefully researched so that we have good access information to avoid problems with local landowners. For most of the crags we will not be including all the sectors, just a few, we will then be pointing at local guidebooks where people can get extra information. The information in these books is not copied from other books in many cases that is impossible because it doesn't even exist in other guidebooks. All the photos and maps and information is being researched by the author. Of course we do use local guidebook for the route names, and we also use the local grades, although we do assess those ourselves as well. There has always been a question about local climbers funding bolting by selling local guidebooks. In our extensive experience the net effect of an Englishlanguage guidebook offering broad coverage of an area is that more travelling climbers visit an area which results in a boost in local trade and an increase in local guidebook sales. There is more information about the Rockfax policy on Access and Bolting here http://www.rockfax.com/general/access.html Alan James, Rockfax and UKClimbing.com gianluca 20090206 10:01:30 money or not, the access (and freecampsite, in some cases) issue is very important. If a topo is never uptodate on this stuff, it seems a good reason not to buy it. It is also true that a (hopefully) small part of the climbing community lacks respect and common sense when coming to access issues : 10 minutes more walk are often portrayed as a big injustice*. So they are happier in not being informed, maybe... *see cresciano. I've seen a group of italian climbers obviously giving a fuck about the "strong suggestion" to park @the village, and saying a lot of bullshit to portray their negligence as a fight for freedom or sth like that... Happy to notice that visiting climbers from germanspeaking areas looked much more sensitive and aware of this kind of issues. Alan James 20090206 10:18:23 In reply to jghedge and Stefano: There is no where near enough money in guidebook sales to actually fund the bolting and usually this policy just results in bad guidebooks that are not what the climbers want. Marco Troussier doesn't recognise this as an issue in his public email posted by Jens. In this case correct access information is the most important issue and that is where Marco has got it completely wrong. How can a local guidebook have accurate information to a crag if it is 10 years out of date or doesn't even exist?

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  • Forum:GLOBAL /News/Accessproblemsdueexternaltopoproduction Loginintocontribute

    Accessproblemsdueexternaltopoproduction

    www.8a.nu

    2009020600:00:00

    "MarcoTroussier,fromtheFrenchfederationFFME,hasinformed8athat externalguideproductionlikeRockfaxcopyinglocalproductionisathreattolocalaccesswork.FFMEisworkinghardwithaccessissuesbutoftentheexternalproducedtoposdonotincludethelastlocalagreementsandcouldcreateaccessproblemsetc.Theequippersandthelocaltopoproducermakeandupdateaccessagreementswiththelandownerandthelocalcouncilinmanycliffs.Theseguysareoftenupsetwhentheymeetforeignerswithacommercialtopoproducedabroad.InsomecasestoposlikeRockfaxcouldcreatedbiglocalaccessroblems,accordingTroussier.Theclimbingcommunityshouldsupportlocallyproducedtoposandlocalaccessagreementseverywhereintheclimbingworld.Rockfaxisstealinglocalmoneyandcreatingaccessproblems.Moralityagainstprofit,chooseyourcamp!"

    JohanSvensson

    2009020603:42:32

    Thisissoonesided,"moralityagainstprofit,chooseyourcamp",whatisthat...Theremustbeawaytoworktogether.LocalguidesareoftenhardtogetbyandperhapsRockFaxcouldhaveawebadresswheretheypresentupdatesonlocalinfo.Ithinkthatisaresposibilitythatcomeswithproducingguides!

    MattHall 2009020604:41:53

    It'sridiculoustomakethisissuesoblackandwhite.Peopleneedtoeducatethemselvesastolocallanduseagreementsandcustoms.WithconcerntoRockfax"stealinglocalmoney"Ithinktheyhaveeveryrighttocompetefairlywithlocalguidebookauthors.Theyshouldconscienceenoughtoincludeinformationonaccessissuesetc.butasclimbersitisalsoourdutytoinformourselvesandberespectful.

    jghedge 2009020608:02:03

    "WithconcerntoRockfax"stealinglocalmoney"Ithinktheyhaveeveryrighttocompetefairlywithlocalguidebookauthors."

    Thethingyou'renotgettingisthatthey'renotjust"localguidebookauthors". Thepeoplewhospentthetimeandmoneytodevelop(bolt)thecragsarelookingtorecouptheircostsbysellingguidestotheareatheydeveloped.IfRockfaxwantstoprintguidestocrags,thentheycangooutandbolttheirowncrags,andprintguidesforthem.Therearecertainlyplentyofnewareastodevelop.

    Ifafriendofyoursspentthousandsofdollarsandhundredsofhoursdevelopinganewcrag,wouldyoutellhimyouhave"everyrighttocompete"ifyoupublishedaguidetoitagainsthiswishes?Orwouldyoulethimputouttheguidesohecouldgetbacksomeofthemoneyhespentdevelopingit?

    StefanoVarnerin

    2009020609:29:36

    Itotallyagreewithjghedge,we'renottalkingabout2bookauthorsincompetition,butaboutthelocalareadeveloperthatspendtime,energyandalotofMONEYtoboltcliffsthatwecanallclimbeduehishardworkandaboutsomeonewhoonedaycametothecliff,buythelocalguideandsay"nicespot,icancopytheguideandsellitabroad"..........sowhohastheright?

    AlanJames 2009020609:51:44

    OneoftheproblemsmanytravellingclimbershavewhenvisitingcragsinFranceisgettingholdofthelocalinformation.Theguidebookscoververysmallareasandareusuallyonlyavailableinselectedlocations.Theresultofthisisthatclimberseitherjustvisitthemainpopularcrags,ortheyvisitthenewcragswithoutproperinformation,whichcancauseproblemsiftheyparkinthewrongplace,orclimbthereatthewrongtimeofyearwhenthecragisclosedforsomereason.

    ThenewRockfaxguidestoFranceaimtohelptravellingclimbersbybringingtogetherlotsofsmallcrags,togetherwiththemorepopularones,intoafewbooks.Thebooksarebeingcarefullyresearchedsothatwehavegoodaccessinformationtoavoidproblemswithlocallandowners.Formostofthecragswewillnotbeincludingallthesectors,justafew,wewillthenbepointingatlocalguidebookswherepeoplecangetextrainformation.

    Theinformationinthesebooksisnotcopiedfromotherbooksinmanycasesthatisimpossiblebecauseitdoesn'tevenexistinotherguidebooks.Allthephotosandmapsandinformationisbeingresearchedbytheauthor.Ofcoursewedouselocalguidebookfortheroutenames,andwealsousethelocalgrades,althoughwedoassessthoseourselvesaswell.

    Therehasalwaysbeenaquestionaboutlocalclimbersfundingboltingbysellinglocalguidebooks.InourextensiveexperiencetheneteffectofanEnglishlanguageguidebookofferingbroadcoverageofanareaisthatmoretravellingclimbersvisitanareawhichresultsinaboostinlocaltradeandanincreaseinlocalguidebooksales.

    ThereismoreinformationabouttheRockfaxpolicyonAccessandBoltingherehttp://www.rockfax.com/general/access.html

    AlanJames,RockfaxandUKClimbing.com

    gianluca

    2009020610:01:30

    moneyornot,theaccess(andfreecampsite,insomecases)issueisveryimportant.

    Ifatopoisneveruptodateonthisstuff,itseemsagoodreasonnottobuyit.

    Itisalsotruethata(hopefully)smallpartoftheclimbingcommunitylacksrespectandcommonsensewhencomingtoaccessissues:10minutesmorewalkareoftenportrayedasabiginjustice*.Sotheyarehappierinnotbeinginformed,maybe...

    *seecresciano.I'veseenagroupofitalianclimbersobviouslygivingafuckaboutthe"strongsuggestion"topark@thevillage,andsayingalotofbullshittoportraytheirnegligenceasafightforfreedomorsthlikethat...Happytonoticethatvisitingclimbersfromgermanspeakingareaslookedmuchmoresensitiveandawareofthiskindofissues.

    AlanJames 2009020610:18:23

    InreplytojghedgeandStefano:

    Thereisnowherenearenoughmoneyinguidebooksalestoactuallyfundtheboltingandusuallythispolicyjustresultsinbadguidebooksthatarenotwhattheclimberswant.MarcoTroussierdoesn'trecognisethisasanissueinhispublicemailpostedbyJens.

    InthiscasecorrectaccessinformationisthemostimportantissueandthatiswhereMarcohasgotitcompletelywrong.Howcanalocalguidebookhaveaccurateinformationtoacragifitis10yearsoutofdateordoesn'tevenexist?

    Publishingthecorrectaccessinformationinbooksthatarewidelyavailableisthebestwaytocommunicatetotravellingclimbers.Iwouldwelcomeanycontributionsfromlocalclimberswhoareconcernedabouttheaccessinformationtotheircragnotbeingaccurate,althoughweareresearchingitverycarefullyourselves.

    Alan

    DavidAtchisonJones

    2009020610:47:01

    Hitherefolks,youcanalwaystrustMarcoTtostirthingsupthatisnothingnewofcourse.Hebringsuptheusualcompletebunkum(rubbish)abouttopoguidebooks.Thereare4commonpointsthatcanbedealtwithseparatelyandshouldbe.1.Access:Thisisanimportantissueandcanonlybedealtwithonarealtimebasis,sosimplyallclimbersshouldvisitalocaltouristofficewhenclimbinginanareatoseeanyuptodateaccessinformation.Thiscanbeupdateddailyandpostedinthewindowofthetoursitoffice.Thisisasensiblesystemandcanbeseenbybothlocalresidentsandvisitingclimbers.2.BoltFunding:Inanylocalareatherearetraditionsforclimbingandboltingandthisshouldremainintotallyatthewishesofthelocalclimbingcommunity.Howitisfundedisuptothemofcourse.Ihavealwaysfeltthatifmoneyistobesoughtfromclimbersthenchargetheactualclimberswhilstontheroutes,theyaretheonlypeoplewhoactuallybenefitfromtheequipping.3.Books:Thesearecommercialproductsinacommercialmarket.Itisalwayswisetotreatbooktopicsasseparate.IfIbuyabookontheholocaustitissimplytogaininformationandhasnothingtodowithanythingelseatall.Linkingthebuyingofacommercialproductwithanendactivityisanonstarter.Freedomofthepressisoneofthemostimportantthingsinfreecivilization.Ingeneralthemorebooksyouhaveonanysubjectthebetter.4.Topocopying:Letsfaceit,ifa 'footballer' wenttoCeuse,theycouldsimplycountthenumberoffallsclimberstookontheroutesandmakeaveryaccurateguidebookbysimplededuction.Theconceptofmakingaguidebookisridiculouslyeasywithmoderndigitalcamerasetc.Ihavemadeover10guidebooksthatIthinkareprettyuseful.Ivisitanareaandmakemyownjudgements,andjustaboutallotherguidebookwritersdoalso.

    JoakimThommesen

    2009020611:03:25

    IhavetoagreewithAlanJames.Thelocalguidebooksarewaytodifficulttogetholdof,andtoooftentheyareoflowqualitycomparedtoRockfax(MrTroussiersoldguidebookforChateauvertisanexeption,thoughthat'sabeautifulandinspiringguidebook).Also,agoodandeasilydistributedguidebooklikeRockfaxbringwaymorepeopletothecragsthantheundergroundlocalguidebooks.So,inotherwords,Rockfaxisbetteratgeneratingclimbersatthecrag,and,hence,cashtothelocalbusinesses.

    JustlookatFontbeforeRockfaxtheguidebookswereuseless.AndafterRockfaxittooktheinitiativeofanotherforeignertogettothenextlevel:BartvanRajandhis7+8guidebook.ThefrenchguidebooksforFontarestillprettyuseless.So,thelocalsshouldgettheiracttogetherratherthancomplainingaboutgoodforeigninitiative.It'snotacoincidencethatthiscritisismcomesfromFrance...Ifitwasuptothem,allguidebookswouldbewritteninfrenchlanguageexclusively.ThankGodforgoodEnglishguidebooks.

    RockonRockfax!

    AlanJames 2009020611:32:02

    IagreewithyougenerallyhereDavid,butIthinkyouremphasisontheaccesspointiswrong.

    AccessisVERYimportant.Itneedstobeaddressedinanumberofwaysandgooduptodateguidebooksarecrucialinthisrespect.SoisuptodatelocalTouristInformationandsoaresignsatthecrag.Climberswillnotbotheralwaysgoingtothetouristofficeitwouldbeacompletepainifyouhadtodothisforeverycrag.Havinggoodinternationalguidebooksthatindicateaccurateinformation,aswellashighlightingcragswheretheremaybeproblemsisessential.

    Alan

    Jens

    2009020611:55:49

    IpartlydisagreewithMarcoandIfounditjustnaturalandgoodthatRockfaxandothersproducelocaltopos.SomeofmyclimbingtripsisadirectresultasofaRockfaxguideandIhaveneverbeendisappointedofwhattheyhaveproduced.

    However,IunderstandtheconcernsTroussierputforward.Iguesstheeasiestwaytogetalocalcooperationandgoodpublisityfortheexternaltopoproducer,wouldbetocreateawebpagewhereTroussiercouldinformaboutthelatestaccessissues.Furthermore,alltopoproducershouldalwayscomittogive"Onebolt"tothelocalcommunityforreplacingbadonesetc.

    Thenewswaspublishedmainlyinorderincreasetheunderstandingbytheclimbingcommunityonaccessmatters.

    DavidAtchisonJones

    2009020612:12:54

    IrefermyhonourablefriendtotheanswerIgavepreviously.Tosolveaccessissuesitmustbe'RealTime.'TakeanarealikethePfalzwheretherearehundredsofcliffs,andeveryoneofthemhastheirownbirdrestrictiontosuitthebirdsnestingintheareathatyear.Thethreecommonwaysofdealingwiththisare1touristinfocentres.2Informationsignsattheaccesspointstocliffs.3Infofromthenationalclimbingfederationofthatcountryontheirrealtimewebsites.

    InmyJingoWobblyEuropeguidbook,ofcourseIgiveasmuchinfotohelpclimbersbeawareofaccessforbirdsetc,butIwouldnotwantanyonetoeverrelyoninformationthatisolderthanaweekforimportantaccessissues.Guidebooksaresimplynottherightmediumforthisinformation.

    AlanJames 2009020612:14:52

    "Thenewswaspublishedmainlyinorderincreasetheunderstandingbytheclimbingcommunityonaccessmatters."

    Wellcontactmefirstthensothatyoucangiveabalancednewsitem.Itisonlybalancednewsthatwillactuallyincreaseunderstanding,andotherformofreportingwilldistortopinionsandperception.

    Alan

    Jens

    2009020612:51:22

    @Alan:MarcoTroussierforwardedthemailcorrespondanceyouhavehadwithhim.

    Thisisandebatearticleandnormallywhentheyarepublishedinnewspapers,anybodycanrespond.

    ItistheviewofMarcothatiswritten.Youmaydisagree.

    Ifyouwanttopublishsomethingonthefirstpage,youaremostwelcometodoso.

    AlanJames 2009020613:50:15

    Couldyoupublishmyfirstpostabovethenplease?

    Alan

    MichaelRyan 2009020613:51:24

    Jens,youareunprofessionalintheextreme.

    Ifyouquotesomeone,putwhattheysaidinquotationmarks.Checkyourfacts.Emailpeoplementionedintheitemfortheirsideofthestory.

    Thisishowyoushouldhavedoneit.READANDLEARN.

    GivingBackToThoseWhoEquipSportRoutes

    Climberswhoestablishnewsportroutesattheirlocalclimbingareasspendagreatdealoftime,effortandmoneycreatingroutesthatwecanallenjoy.Asindividualsweallbenefitfromtheireffortswhenweclimbtheseroutes,especiallysoatpopularclimbingdestinationareaswherethesunshinesandtherockandroutequalityishigh.Withouttheeffortsofnewrouterswewouldhavenothingtoclimb.

    Howcanwegiveback?

    Firsttreatallclimbingareaswithrespect:don'tlitter,toiletbeforeyougoclimbing,keepthenoisedown,parkappropriately.

    Checkifthereareanyaccessissuesatyourcragchoicebyvisitingthelocaltouristinformationofficeandaskinglocalclimbers.

    Secondly,searchoutlocalboltfundsandcontribute.Ifthereisalocalguidebook,buyit.

    Thirdly,youhelpthelocaleconomybystayingatlocalcampsites,refugios,hotelsandpatronisinglocalsupermarkets,barsandrestaurants.

    Makesureyoutellpeoplethatyouareaclimberandwhereyouarefrom.Thiswillspreadthewordthatclimbingisimportanttothelocaleconomy.

    Notonlydoindividualsbenefitfromtheeffortsoflocalrouteequippersbutalsomanycommercialclimbingcompaniesandindividuals:climbinggearcompanies,guides,guidebookpublishers,photographers,theclimbingmediaincludingbothmagazinesandwebsites.

    Shouldtheseentitiesmakecontributionstolocalboltandaccessorganisations?Somedoalready.Butshoulditbecomemoreformalised?

    Oneperennialhottopicisoutofareapublishersproducingguidebookstodestinationareasandtheeffecttheyhaveonlocalclimbingareas.

    8a.nurecentlyreceivedanemailfromMarcoTroussier,fromtheFrenchfederationFFMEwhoisconcernedaboutoutofareaguidebookpublishersinFrance.

    Hesaid,"quoteshere,quotesherequotesherequotesherequotesherequotesherequoteshere"

    8a.nucontactedAlanJamesofRockfax,aUKbasedclimbingguidebookpublisherwhohaveproducedguidebookstoSpanish,Norwegian,andUSAclimbingareas,andhaveseveralguidebookstoFranceinpreparation.

    8a.nuaskedAlanJameshisviewpointonoutofareapublishersproducingguidebooks.

    AlanJamessaid,"quotesherequotesherequotesherequoteshere"

    Whatisyourpointofview.Pleasecontributethetheforumthreadassociatedwiththisnews/opinionitem.

    ENDS

    gianluca

    2009020614:08:38

    OnethingIdon'tunderstand:whypeoplesaythatlocaltoposaredifficulttofind.

    InallplacesIvisited,thelocaltopowaseasilyavailableonthespot.ifoutofprinting,there'salwaysacopyattheclimber'sbar/meetingpoint(oftenagoodwaytogetintouchwiththelocalcommunityandtogetinformedonaccessissues).

    Then,insomecasesthelocaltoposareawful(bleau,orfontasyoulike,isanexcellentexample.Thedutch7+8isunbeatableforaccuracy,synthesisandstylishlayout...it'sworththemoneyevenforthosewhoclimblowerthan7a,justfortheaccessmaps).Insomecasesthoughthelocaltoposhavesomethingspecialand"mithique"tothem(theswisstoposoncresciano/chironico/gotthardbouldering,theswissticinosportclimbingguide,cusetopoexpeciallytheonewithadrawinginthefirstpage,oldeditionandsoon...)

    Iwanttonoticeonethingthough.thebest"outsider"toposareuniqueworksmadebypeoplewhobasicallyhavechosenanareaastheirsecondhome.Iwouldbeverysurprised,forinstance,iftheauthorsof7+8wereabletomakeanequallycomprehensiveandaccuratetopoonTicinobouldering....

    Idon'thavedirectexperiencewithjinglowobblyandrockfax,butI'veseenloadsof"awful"commercialtopobooks...accessdescriptionswhere"fewmeters"become"fewminutes",mixedupdrawings,andmanyodditiesofthatkind...

    ...ifthetopoismadebypeoplewhoreallyknowtheareatheyaredescribinginsteadofputtingtogetherspaperstheygotfromfriendsoffriends,orcopyingsomeoneelse'swork,thoseerrorsaremuchlessfrequent...

    AlanJames 2009020614:30:46

    HiGianluca

    AsanexampleofguidebookavailabilityinFrance:InBuisleBaronnieslastSummer,Iwantedguidebooksforsomeofthelocalcrags.IwenttotheTouristInformationCentreandtheyhad2localtopos,bothquiteold,foraround20EurostotalIboughtthem.Ithendiscoveredthatthesecoveredtwoofthecragsandthereareabout20cragsaroundBuisthevastmajorityofthesecragsarenotinanyguidebook.OtherguidebookswereoutofprintthelocalguidesofficewasnotopenwhenIneededitandtheinformationinthereisnotinaformatthatyoucancarrytothecrag.

    Howeverthatdoesn'treallygettotheheartoftheproblem.Eveniftherehadbeengoodlocalguidebooksinthetouristoffice,IwantmybooksbeforeIsetoff,sothatIcanplanmytrip.IwanttobeinspiredbylocalguidesbeforeIchooseadestination.IthinkmanytravellingclimbersmissoutonsomegreatcragsinFrancesimplybecausetheydon'tknowaboutthem.

    Youareabsolutelycorrectthatthebestguidebookaretheoneswrittenbyauthorswithgreatlocalknowledge.WetrytodothisatRockfaxexamplehereofabookwrittenbyagreatguidebookwriterandaknowledgeablelocal(byfarthebestcombination)http://www.rockfax.com/publications/books/item.php?id=133

    Alan

    Jens

    2009020614:53:30

    @Alan:YourfirstposteaboveispostedasIsuggested.

    FormeitisinterestingthatonceIapproachedtocommentthearticlewhereyoupublishedmypicturesayingthatIwas"messingwithyourEgrade",IgottheresponsethatIcouldpostitintheopenforum.

    When8apostedyourcommentatthefirstpage,youanswermetopostmineinyourforum.

    MichaelRyan 2009020615:16:06

    Jens,

    YouaremorethanwelcometosubmitanarticleatUKClimbing.comandweshallfeatureit.Makesureitiswellwritten,wellresearchedandillustrated.

    TOPIC8a.nuwhatisitandwhereisitgoing?byJensLarssen.

    Thereyougo,anopeninvite.

    YouwereandBjornwerealsoofferedaCommercialProfileatUKClimbing.com(usualcost200each)afterwerananewsitemaboutyourselfandSonnieTrotter'messingwithourEgrade".

    YoudearJenscamelatetothedebate.Soceaseyourchildishegogames.

    YouhavenotyetsaidanythingnewabouttheEgradediscussionthathasnotbeensaidanddiscussedalready,atgreatlength,intheUKclimbingmedia.

    Startbyreadingthis:

    TheHeadpointingDebatebyAdamWainright

    http://www.climber.co.uk/categories/articleitem.asp?cate=1&topic=15&item=171

    Allthebest,

    MickUKClimbing.com

    Philipp

    2009020615:20:12

    IhavetoagreewithAlaninthatpointthatiprefergettingtheinformationaboutthearea/cragsinadvance.Iwouldappreciateitverymuchtogivethelocalstheproperrespectforlettingusvisitorhaveagoodtimeongoodroutesbutthatssometimesquitehard.Whenisearchedtheinternetforguidebooksiwasneverabletofindanythingpublishedbyalocalandonlyavaibleondemandorso.Itsalwaystheshopsandpublisherslikerockfaxthatprovidedecentbooksinadvance.Andidontwanttotaketheriskmakinga2weekvacationandnotgettingaguideforthearea.Ialwayswenttolesspopularplacesbutisitreallythateasytogetalltheinfoyouneedinclimbinghotspots?Butlikeisaidifthelocalsoranyonewhoisobviouslyresponsibleforputtinguproutesormaintainigcragsfindsawaytomaketheirworkmorepubliclikebooksorwebsitesorwhateveriwouldbethefirsttodonate,helporbuythebooks.Maybeididntsearchedthoroughly:)InmyopinionRockfaxisdoingagoodjobandwhatAlanwroteaboveseemsreasonabletome

    Jens

    2009020615:33:28

    @Michael:ThreemonthsagoIaskedwhetheritwaspossibletopublishananswertotheEgradecritiscismIhadreceivedonyourfirstpage.Ialsoaskedyoutoremovethepictureofmetotheheadline,"messingwiththeEgrade".

    YourefusedtodeletemypictureandyousaidIshouldanswerintheforum!Thesearetheplainfacts!

    8ainvitedAlanJamestohavehisviewonthefirstpage.Thesearetheplainfacts!

    Although,younow,threemonthslaterinvitemetopublish8athoughts,itstilllooksreallybadtoUKclimbing,howyouhandledtheissueofJensLarssenin2008.

    ThenewandthingIhavesaidregardingtheEgradewaspublishedsomedaysagoonthefirstpage.MysolutionisthatyoushouldkeeptheEgradesforallgradesthatareonsightedandthenonhardergrades,asupplemantoryredpointgradeshouldbegiven,i.e.5.13bR/Xliketherestoftheworldisgradingtradredpoint.

    MichaelRyan 2009020615:44:04

    IgiveupJens.

    Iseenohopeforyou.

    Odub

    2009020615:50:08

    Thisisallsilly.ThereisNOprintguidebookthatcanbeconstantlyuptodate.Mostareoutofdateafewweeksafterthey'republished.Thatdoesn'tmeanI'mgoingtobuyaguidebookeveryfewweeks.

    Everyotherindustryisgoingthroughthesamesituationbecausetheinternethasallowedsuchawealthofinformationtobeavailable.Itstimeforclimberstosuckitupanddealwithit.Ifanything,8aisasmuchapartoftheproblemasRockfax.

    TheonlysolutionIcanseeisforeveryareatohaveanonlineguidethatisconstantlyupdatedbythedevelopers,similiartotheoneonwww.redriverclimbing.com.

    Otherwise,nobodyintheargumenthasasinglevalidpoint.

    jghedge 2009020618:35:01

    RockFaxwrites:

    "Thereisnowherenearenoughmoneyinguidebooksalestoactuallyfundtheboltingandusuallythispolicyjustresultsinbadguidebooksthatarenotwhattheclimberswant.MarcoTroussierdoesn'trecognisethisasanissueinhispublicemailpostedbyJens."

    Ifthere'snomoneyinit,thenwhyisRockFaxdoingit?

    Bythislogic,sincethereis"nowherenearenoughmoneyinguidebooksales",itwouldbeOKformetomakeanddistributecopiesoftheRocKFaxguideandsellitformyownprofitafterall,there'snomoneyinit,right?

    Thelocalscansimplychargemorefortheirguides,peoplecan(anddo)paymoreforaguidewhentheyknowit'spartoffundingthedevelopmentofthecrag.PublishingguidestoanareawithoutpermissionofthedevelopersisPIRACYplainandsimple.Thereisnomoral/ethicalargumentthattrumpsthehardworkandexpenseputintoboltingacrag.

    Davo

    2009020618:55:32

    TokeepaguidebookupdatedIlikewhattheydidwiththeCUENCAguidebook.Theyhaveawebpageupdatingeverynewroute,updatinggradesandtalkingaboutproblemsorrestrictions.Thatsthewaytogoithink,printabookandpublishupdatesintheweb...

    AlanJames 2009020619:07:34

    Inreplytojghedge:

    Ididn'tsaytherewasnomoneyinguidebooks.

    I'llputitanotherway:

    ...thereisnotenoughmoneyinwritingasingleguidebook,toasinglecrag,tofundtheboltingatthatcrag.Thisalsoappliestoasmallgroupofcrags,asisoftenthecaseinFrance.

    Thepointisirrelevantanyway,asisprettymuchacknowledgedbythefactthatMarcoignoresit.

    Alan

    MarcoTroussier

    2009020619:10:10

    It'seasytofindsometopos:http://www.ffme.fr/boutique/index.htmProblemaccess.I'veneverseenmisterJingloandmisteJamesonameetinginFrancetopreserveaccesswiththeownerofacliff.theywilltaketherecashand"basta"!Heyoucanalsocopy"friends"andstufflikethat.......FFMEdidworkwithlawyertopreserveaccessoncertaincliffs,whataboutBMC,AVetc....Itcostalottomakeprocess....Thecostofatopowillneverbetehcostofalltheworkthathavebeendonetoboltandpreserveclimbinginsomecliffs.

    POD

    2009020619:30:47

    AlamJameswrote:"Howeverthatdoesn'treallygettotheheartoftheproblem.Eveniftherehadbeengoodlocalguidebooksinthetouristoffice,IwantmybooksbeforeIsetoff,sothatIcanplanmytrip.IwanttobeinspiredbylocalguidesbeforeIchooseadestination.IthinkmanytravellingclimbersmissoutonsomegreatcragsinFrancesimplybecausetheydon'tknowaboutthem."

    Iagree,gettingholdofaguidebookbeforethetripisessentialtomakethemostofonesholiday.IfyoucarestronglyenoughaboutthedifficultyofgettingholdofFrenchguidesintheUKthenperhapsyoucouldfollowmyexamplewiththe'SupercrackEditions'guidestovariousareasofCatalunya(Spain).IsimplyputtheauthorsoftheguidesintouchwithaUKbookdistributor(Cordee),andactedas(unpaid)gobetween.Notonlyhavebothpartiesbeenhappywiththeresult,butUKclimberscanperuseorbuybooksaheadofatripfrommanyoftheleadingBritishoutlets.PeteO'Donovan.

    StefanoVarnerin

    2009020620:15:39

    Alan,maybethesectorsthattheguidedon'tcopyaresecretbecouseofaccessproblemoronlybecousethelocalclimbersdon'twontcrowdofclimbersinit.Andidon'tthinkthatthemoneybroughtbytheguideiss#it!ThinkaboutaplacelikeRodellar.......howmanyboltstheyhadputthankstotheguide?Moneyornotwithoutpermissionoftheareadevelopersucan'tdoaguide.Andifudo,4meislikestealingonother'sjob

    MarcoTroussier

    2009020620:47:43

    Stopthinking,"climbing"isjustamerchandise,behonnest,orjustassumeyourposition"makingmoney",makeprofitandgiveas..fortherest....IneverhadtroubletofindatopoinsideandoutsideFrance.(Arapiles,Greece,Austria,Germany,Italy,thalande,Spainetc....since35yearsi'mclimbing)Ithinkhonnestlyihavetobuythetopointhecountryandfromlocaleditor.20isnothingcomparetothecostofatrip,andi'mhappytogivemoneybackforthosewhoboltedtheroutes,because,iboltedmyself,morethan500routesinFrance,italy,Australia,USA,Tawan,Crimea.AndhereisTHEdifferencebetweenus.Doingsomethingforfree.

    jghedge 2009020620:48:38

    "...thereisnotenoughmoneyinwritingasingleguidebook,toasinglecrag,tofundtheboltingatthatcrag.Thisalsoappliestoasmallgroupofcrags,asisoftenthecaseinFrance."

    Please...a$30guidebooktosomeplacelikeStLegercouldeasilysellafewthousandcopies...othersdoalltheworkandyouprofit,justcallitwhatitis,piracyandplagiarism...

    9b

    2009020621:02:58

    Paperisgood,butitcostsandYoucanalwaysprintadigitaltopoYoudownloadedafterhavingpayeditwithyourprepaidcard.Inthatcase,Youpaydirectlylocalauthors/equippers,givingthem100insteadofusual10%ofincomesandnotsomanyproblemstoupdateit.Withmobileweb,privateonlinetoposYoucanenter,readandprint,afterpayment,canhavevideosandinteractionstoo.

    MichaelRyan 2009020621:35:47

    There'sahelluvaalotofslanderandlibelonhere.

    Larsseninitiatedthehatewith,"Accessproblemsdueexternaltopoproductionand"Rockfaxisstealinglocalmoneyandcreatingaccessproblems."onhishomepageblog.

    Joeyoushouldknowbetterwithyour"justcallitwhatitis,piracyandplagiarism..."

    InmyheartofheartsItoobelievethatthereshouldbe"localguidesforallvisitors"butuntilpeopleliketheFFMEandFrenchguidebookpublishersgettheirshittogetherandproducethebestguidebooksnotjustforlocalsbutforvisitorsyouwillalwaysgetoutoftownerspublishingguidebooks.......

    HerethatMarcoTroussier.Quityou'rewhining!

    .......theGermanshavebeenprosatitfordecades,andgoodonthem.RememberSunRockbyNicoMailander?.....andPeteLivesey'sFrenchguidebook!

    VersanteSudalsodoingasterlingjob,asdoRockfax.EvenFalconintheUSAhaveaguidebooktoEurope.

    Selectguidebookstohotareasarehardtofind,butwhentheyareavailableanddonewell,andtheareasisgood,theclimberstheyattractspend1,000'sthatsupportthelocaleconomy.

    OKanyonewanttoanswertheslanderandactuallygiveanexampleofaccessproblemcausedbyanoutoftownguidebook!

    Anyone?JensyoustatedthatRockfaxhavestolenmoneyandcausedaccessproblems.Eitherputuporshutup!Somechanceeh!

    GawdIhateblindlocalism.

    Thisargumenthasbeengoingonandonfor20/30yearswithnoresolution.Youcan'tlegislate.

    There'soneanswer.Localshavetostepuptotheplateandproducedmultilingualareaguidebooksthataretopquality.Untilthatisdone,andtheyaredistributedwell(PODisdoingsterlingworkthere)outsiderswillcontinuetoproduceguidebooks.

    Everythingelseisjustinternethotair.

    Mustdash.rantover

    Toodles,

    Mick

    AlanJames 2009020621:54:14

    Marcosaid,"I'veneverseenmisterJingloandmisteJamesonameetinginFrancetopreserveaccesswiththeownerofacliff.theywilltaketherecashand"basta"!Heyoucanalsocopy"friends"andstufflikethat.......FFMEdidworkwithlawyertopreserveaccessoncertaincliffs,whataboutBMC,AVetc....Itcostalottomakeprocess"

    ButMarco,therearealotofpeoplewhobenefitfromboltsbeingincliffsandnotmanyofthemareattheaccessmeetingslocalbusinessesandoutdoorgearmanufacturersforexample.IattendmeetingsinthePeakDistrictandtrytodomybithere,maybepeoplewhomakeharnessesandropesinsomeotherpartofEuropeattendtheirlocalaccessmeetingsaswell.Weareallverygratefulfortheworkyoudoinyourarea,andmaybeyouaregratefulfortheworkdonebyouraccessteamshereEngland.That'sgoodworkandeveryonewhohasajobintheoutdoorsshoulddotheirbit,Iagree,butyoucan'texpectaropemanufacturertoattendaccessmeetingsforeverycragtheirropeisusedat,andyoucan'texpectaguidebookpublishingcompanywith30publicationstoattendaccessmeetingsforeverycragtheirguidebookscover.However,wearekeentosupportyoureffortsinanywaywecanbydoingwhatwecandonamelypublishingthebestandmostaccurateinformationtoasmanyclimbersaswecanreach.

    Alan

    jghedge 2009020622:01:07

    "Localshavetostepuptotheplateandproducedmultilingualareaguidebooksthataretopquality.Untilthatisdone,andtheyaredistributedwell(PODisdoingsterlingworkthere)outsiderswillcontinuetoproduceguidebooks."

    Sayswho?Theguyswhoarepiratingtheguides?

    Eitherdosomeoftheworkindevelopingthecrag,orcontributeapercentageofthesalesoftheguidetothepeoplewhodo.Betteryet,onlybuylocalguides,ordowithout.

    Montsanthadnoguideforyears,stilldoesn'tasfarasIknow,theroutesdon'tevenhavenames,justnumbers...that'sobviouslyhowthelocalswantitandit'sfinewithme.

    Jens

    2009020622:06:41

    @Michael:Ascanberead,thisisandebatearticleweretheopinionsofMarcoisexpressedandhereadthearticlebeforeitwaspublished.

    "MarcoTroussier,fromtheFrenchfederationFFME,hasinformed8a..."

    Asyoucanseefromthediscussions,itisinterestingforthecommunitytodiscuss.Furthermore,myopinionisinbetweenAlanandMarcoasIhaveexpressedearlier.

    MichaelRyan 2009020622:12:00

    Idon'tpublishguidessowhenIsay

    "Localshavetostepuptotheplateandproducedmultilingualareaguidebooksthataretopquality.Untilthatisdone,andtheyaredistributedwell(PODisdoingsterlingworkthere)outsiderswillcontinuetoproduceguidebooks."

    Thatismyanswertotheperceivedproblem.

    Outcompetethecompetition,produceagoodquality,multilingualguidebookandmakesureitisdistributedwell.YouareaYank,youunderstandthat.

    UntilthathappensforgetitseeKalymnosasagoodexample.You'dbenutstopublishaguidebooktothatareaastheguideissowelldone.

    It'sdeadsimple.Buthardwork.

    MichaelRyan 2009020622:15:57

    SeemyexamplepostaboveJens.

    YouneedsomeonewhocaneditwellandinEnglishbecauseasitstandswhosaidwhatinthat'news'itemisnotclearatall,andmuchofitappearsasstatementoffact.

    Firstyouneedanauthorcredit,abyline.Secondyouneedtoclearlymarkquotes.

    It'svergingonslanderasitisnow.

    jghedge 2009020704:18:12

    "Outcompetethecompetition,produceagoodquality,multilingualguidebookandmakesureitisdistributedwell.YouareaYank,youunderstandthat."

    Theissueispiracyandplagiarism,notcompetition.Thelocaldevelopersdecidewhattheguideshouldbe,orifthereshouldevenbeone,notyou.It'stheirwork,notyours.

    MichaelRyan 2009020708:39:13

    AfraidnotJoetheissueistheavailabilityofgoodareaguidebookstopopulardestinationareasandwhopublishesthem.

    jghedge 2009020710:05:28

    "Selectguidebookstohotareasarehardtofind,butwhentheyareavailableanddonewell,andtheareasisgood,theclimberstheyattractspend1,000'sthatsupportthelocaleconomy."

    Uh...no.Thecragsandtheworkdonebythedevelopersattractclimbers,nottheguide.Anditistheheightofarrogancetopresumetodecidethatanareayouhadnothingtodowithdevelopingsuddenly"needs"aRockFaxguide.

    "...wearekeentosupportyoureffortsinanywaywecanbydoingwhatwecandonamelypublishingthebestandmostaccurateinformationtoasmanyclimbersaswecanreach."

    WhichislikemesayingtoRockFax,"IamkeentosupportyoureffortsinanywayIcan"bymakingmyowncopiesoftheRockFaxguideandsellingitformyownprofit.AfterallAlanandMick,thinkofthebenefittovisitingclimbersandthelocaleconomy!

    AlanJames 2009020710:52:38

    "WhichislikemesayingtoRockFax,"IamkeentosupportyoureffortsinanywayIcan"bymakingmyowncopiesoftheRockFaxguideandsellingitformyownprofit.AfterallAlanandMick,thinkofthebenefittovisitingclimbersandthelocaleconomy!"

    Thatwouldbeillegal.

    Youareperfectlyatlibertytomakeyourownguidethough,andsinceyouseemtothinkthatthereisnoeffortrequiredtoproduceaguidefromtheguidebookwriters/publishersthenIwonderwhyyoudon't?

    Alan

    POD

    2009020710:58:47

    MickRyanwrote:"Localshavetostepuptotheplateandproducedmultilingualareaguidebooksthataretopquality.Untilthatisdone,andtheyaredistributedwell(PODisdoingsterlingworkthere)outsiderswillcontinuetoproduceguidebooks."

    Herewehavethecruxoftheproblem:Rockfaxandtheirilkhavecreatedanenvironmentwheremanyclimbersseeitastheir'right'tohaveuptodateinformationintheirownlanguage.Bythisreckoning,when'local'climbersinFranceandSpaincleanandequipareas,oftenatgreatpersonaleffortandexpense,theymustthensitdownandproduceaprofessionalqualityguidebookin(atleast)fourlanguages.Leavingtopobooksinbarsorprovidinglowtech,lowcostlocalguides,itseems,isnolongersufficient.AndGodhelpthemshouldtheydecidetokeeptheirnewcragsemisecretforawhile.Indeed,suchactionsareoftendeemedasjustificationforthe'professionals'tostepin.

    JustasthereareBritslivingonthecontinentwhohavenointentionofeverlearningthelanguageorimmersingthemselvesinlocalculture,sotherearevisitingBritishclimbersforwhomanythinglessthanafullEnglishlanguageguidebooktellingthemexactlywhenandwheretogoandwhichroutestoclimb,simplywon'tdo.Suchclimbersmayhaveonlyoneortwoweeksayeartogoawayandwanttomakethemostofit.FairenoughthisisRockfax'breadandbuttermarket.Inthebesttraditionsofbusiness,theyhaveidentifiedanicheandtakenfulladvantageofit.

    Sotheissueisnotwhysuchguidebooksareproducedbuthow.It'samatterofethics,andherethingscanandmustchange.InCatalunya,forinstance,the'SupercrackEditions'guysenterintoagreementswithlocalactivistswhereby,inreturnforinformation,asetpercentage(usuallybetween10and20%)oftheguidebookrunispassedonimmediatelyfollowingpublication,andsoldinlocalshopsandbars.Thiskeepsbothsideshappytheguidebooksbenefitfromintimatelocalknowledgeandtheclimbersgetfundingforfurtherdevelopment.10%onaprintrunof3,000canadduptoalotofbolts!

    Rockfaxneedstostronglyconsidersuchmethods.Sure,therewillbelogisticalproblems,butiftheyapplythesameingenuityandprofessionalismtotheseastotheguidesthemselves,thenI'msureitcanbedone.Andifthismeansthatprofitsgodown,eitherchargeyourcustomersmore(explainingwhy)ortakeapaycut!

    Whatforeignguidebookwritersandtheircustomersneedtofullyunderstandisthat,toanyoneinvolvedinlocalcliffdevelopmentcleaning,boltingetc.orguideproduction(andit'softenthesamefolks),foran'outside'interesttosimplycomein,andtakeanduseinformationforpersonalprofit,withouttheleastconsultationorrespectforlocalfeelings,isanactionwhichcausestheutmostoffenseandlonglastingbadfeeling.

    PeteO'Donovan.

    StefanoVarnerin

    2009020711:05:07

    Okiunderstand,goodhasgiveanimportantmissiontojamesandryan........maketheirownguidofevryplacetheythinkhasn'tagoodoneforthegodofhumanity.Thestupidandevillocaldevelopershasnorighttocomplainifsomeoneelselikerockfaxusetheirhardworkforprofit......ehhmfortherightofthewholeclimbingcommunity.

    Thankstorockfax,thegermansandthecrowdofrudeclimbersthatevryhollydaycamelikelocustinourscliff(therockisofevrybody,buttheworkincleaningandboltingnot)takemoreandmorelocaldeveloperstokeepsecretthenewareas.Alsoineverhadtheproblemtofindtheguideofacrag......alsowithoutiticlimbedwellbecouseualwaysfindnicepeopleincragthatexplainuthewholesectorsandgivenicetips!

    MichaelRyan 2009020711:30:21

    Joesaid:Uh...no.Thecragsandtheworkdonebythedevelopersattractclimbers,nottheguide.

    Stefanosaid:Thankstorockfax,thegermansandthecrowdofrudeclimbersthatevryhollydaycamelikelocustinourscliff.

    Anareaspopularityisduetomanyfactors.

    Thelongtermpopularityofanareaisdeterminedbythequalityoftherockandtheroutes.

    Itisfurthermarketedbywebsiteslike8a.nuandtheclimbingmediaasawhole,includingtopclimbersblogs,climbingphotographers,climbingcompanies,videosonVimeo

    HeyJoetakethatLynnHillvideodownitsanadvertfortheRedRiverGorge.

    8a.nuisbasicallyabigticklistofroutesandcragsfromaroundtheworld,abigadvertforclimbingsdestinationareas.

    JensIhopeyouchecktheaccesssituationateachcraginyourdatabase,alsocheckthequalityoftheboltprotectionofeachroutethatyouarepromoting.

    Alsohowmuchdoes8a.nucontributetolocalaccessfunds.

    Pointispopularityofanareaanditsroutesareduetomanyfactors,notjustguidebooks.8a.nu,photographers,videos,blogsquicklypromoteareasandmakethempopular.

    IagreePete,'consultationandrespectforlocalfeelings'isveryimportantwhenanoutsidepublisherpublishesaguidebooktoanarea.Ihopetheyalldothat.

    POD

    2009020711:54:31

    MickRyanwrote:'IagreePete,'consultationandrespectforlocalfeelings'isveryimportantwhenanoutsidepublisherpublishesaguidebooktoanarea.Ihopetheyalldothat.'

    Fantastic!AllweneednowisforRockfaxtofullyembracethatsentiment.TheLofotenguidewasapparentlyproducedinsuchawayandtheresultisabrilliantpublication.WiththeproposedFrenchguidebookstheyhaveanexcellentopportunitytocontinuethegoodwork.

    PeteO'Donovan.

    DavidFalt

    2009020712:10:46

    FirstChapeautoMarcoforallhisworkthatweallbenefitfromwhenvisitingcliffsinFrance.AndifanyofyouwhothinkMarcois"whining"IsuggestyoujoinFFMEandMarcosunselfishworkforthecommunity.AlsoafterhavingseenfirsthandallthehardworkFFMEisdoingIthinktheydeserveallthecredittheycanget.Iwilltrytojointhemthisyearasmyfrenchnowisok.

    I'matruelibertarianandacapitalistwhoinanynormalcasewouldarguethatfreeandunrestrictedcompetitionisthebestforthemarketandtheendconsumerbutwhenitcomestotoposIstronglyagreewithMarco.BYlocal.Supportthelocalworkforaccess.

    Itsbullshitthatitshardtofindtoposjustputabitofeffortinandyouwillallfindthem.AlsoIhavetosaythatMarcoisprovidingaservicewaybeyondallexpectations.WhenIwasnewtoChateauVertIgotsomeveryhelpfuladvisefromMarcoandIwasbugginghimquiteallotaboutgradesandnamesofnewroutesetcandhewasalwaysfasttorespondandhelp.NowItsmyfavoritespotandIhavejustboughtmysecondtopoasthefirstonefellapartaftersomehardconsuming.

    WhenitcomestotheslanderaccusationsagainstJensIthinkwealljusthavetoacceptthathehashiswaywithwordsandsometimesitallgoeshorriblywrong.HavingSUBSTANTIALexperiencefromlitigationandlegalprocessesIhavelearnedonethinganditseitheryousueoryoushutup.AtaninternetforumorinemailsIthinkwehavetoacceptthatthingsslipoutintheheatofthemomentandthatsjustaculturalthingwithemailsandinternet.SopleasestoptheslanderBSandstayontopic.

    MichaelRyan 2009020712:12:56

    IagreePete.Wholeheartedly.

    Theseguidebooksbyforeignpublishersshouldbedonewithconsultationwithlocalclimbersandaccessorganisations.

    Collaborationistheonlyway.

    WhatIobjecttooisinflammatoryandslanderoussocallednewsitemsonwebsiteslikethis(whoalsoprofitfromtheworkofnewrouters)whichsetthetoneforadiversivediscussionandpitoneclimberagainstanother.

    Amudslingingdiscussionistheresultanddoesnothingtoencouragecollaboration.

    ThefellscallhereintheLakes.I'mofftoahighandsnowyridge.

    Mick

    jghedge 2009020718:54:20

    "Theseguidebooksbyforeignpublishersshouldbedonewithconsultationwithlocalclimbersandaccessorganisations.

    Collaborationistheonlyway."

    Again,arrogance.Ifsomeoneispiratingandplagiarizingyourworkyouareundernoobligationto"collaborate"withthem.Ifthedevelopersdon'twantforeignguidesthenethically(andprobablylegallyaswell)thereshouldn'tbeany.

    MichaelRyan 2009020720:00:04

    Youweren'tlisteningJoe.

    It'sOK,it'scommonontheinternet.

    Nooneisplagiarizingorcopying,althoughroutelistsareused,Justastheyareon8a.nu,ontheMountainProject,UKCandothersites.

    TakealookatCoronn.comandDR.Topotoo.....youtooJens.

    Thisword'developers'isabitsinister.Arepeoplelikemyselfwhoestablishnewroutesandproblemscalled'developers'.

    Arecragsconstructionsitesthesedays?

    Iofferasolution,youofferslanderandinsults.

    It'sOK,it'scommonontheinternet.

    BythewayIdon'tbelieveawordthatRussWallingsaidaboutyouo)

    Allthebest,

    Mick

    jghedge 2009020720:19:17

    "Youweren'tlisteningJoe.

    It'sOK,it'scommonontheinternet."

    Indeedparticularlywhenvestedinterestsareinvolved.

    AlanJames 2009020809:57:39

    "Fantastic!AllweneednowisforRockfaxtofullyembracethatsentiment.TheLofotenguidewasapparentlyproducedinsuchawayandtheresultisabrilliantpublication.WiththeproposedFrenchguidebookstheyhaveanexcellentopportunitytocontinuethegoodwork."

    ItisatwowaythingPOD.ThereasonLofotenworkedsowellwasbecauseThorbjornrecognisedthathehasagreatareaandhassomegreatclimbs,andthatwemakegreatguidebooks.WiththeseguidebookstoFrancewearecoveringahugeareaverylightlyratherthanasmallareaindepth.Wehavemadesomegoodcontactsbutalsoencounteredsomestonewallsliketheonesshownonthisthread.Sodon'texpectthatsamelevelofproductionasLofoten,butthenagain,thebookdoesn'tneedit.

    Asregardsyourpointsaboutguidebookpublishersenteringintofinancialagreementswithlocalbolters:Doyouthinkthisshouldberestrictedexclusivelytoguidebookproducers,ordootherpeoplewhobenefitfromthepresenceofboltedroutesalsoneedtocontribute?Forexample,didyoudonatetoboltfundswhenyouweremakingyourlivingoutofsellinggeartoclimbers?

    AlanJames 2009020809:59:46

    Stefanosaid,"Thankstorockfax,thegermansandthecrowdofrudeclimbersthatevryhollydaycamelikelocustinourscliff(therockisofevrybody,buttheworkincleaningandboltingnot)takemoreandmorelocaldeveloperstokeepsecretthenewareas.Alsoineverhadtheproblemtofindtheguideofacrag......alsowithoutiticlimbedwellbecouseualwaysfindnicepeopleincragthatexplainuthewholesectorsandgivenicetips!"

    That'ssomenastyxenophobiathereStefano.IamgladtheclimbersintheareasIvisitdon'thavethatattitude.

    Alan

    AlanJames 2009020810:20:41

    Joesaid:"Theissueispiracyandplagiarism,notcompetition."

    YouareveryfreewiththewordplagiarismJoe.

    Thisisplagiarismhttp://www.rockfax.com/images/i.php?id=27

    Alan

    StefanoVarnerin

    2009020811:09:44

    Ifxenophobiameanbehangrywhenuseeamazingplacesbeenruinbycrowdofidiot(withbeautifullguide!)thathavenorespect4nature,yesi'mxenofobic!Irememberthewaymisjapeclookslikeafterhollydayperiods........itseemsadump!AndolsoirememberwhathappentothebeautifullcragofPodpec,close4therudnessofsomeidiotsthatparkcarsinprivateproprietateanddon'trespecttheinhabitantsofthesmallvillage.Weallseehowbetterisforthepreservationofthecragifwedon'tdoaguideoftheplace,butonlysaytofriendswhereitis.SpotlikeBaratro,wichishardtocallsecretafter10years,hassurvivedthankstothisstrategy,andalsowithoutaguidehundredspeopleshaveclimbinthiscave.Alotofamazingcliffcan'thaveaguide,becouseofovercrowningproblemthatcancausetheendofit.Peoplefromabroaddon'tnowalltheproblemsofanarea,butthelocaldo!Sotheonlyway4aforeigntomakeaguideistoworkveryveryclosewiththelocaldevelopers.Andiftheyareagainstaguide,uhavenorighttopubblishone.

    BruceMarsh

    2009020811:21:07

    Ihaven'thadtimetoreadalloftheabovesomaybeI'mrepeatingsomethinghere.

    DuringmytimelivinginFranceI'veencounteredsomeincrediblybadguidebooksandRockfaxcomingovertoraisethebarabitisgreatnews.

    EachtimeIgosportclimbingIamveryawareofandgreatlyappreciatetheexcellentworkthatthelocalactivistsandrouteequippershaveputin.Iwouldhatetothinkthattheywouldloseoutonafinancialcontributiontotheirexpensesifpeoplestartedpurchasingrockfaxguidesratherthantheirown.Havingsaidthat,inmanyareaswheretheguidebooksareunbelievablybadlymade,IwouldmuchratherbuyaguideorRockfaxqualityandpaysomeextramoneydirectlytoaboltfundortothecragdevelopers.

    IfRockfaxcouldestablishsuchasystem(maybetheyalreadyhavetosomeextent?)thentheywouldnodoubtgetmuchmorehelpfromthelocalsandremainunquestionablyonthemoralhighgroundsincetheywouldbepayingforaproportionoftheboltsontheroutestheyaredescribing.

    Onemechanismforthiscouldbetoadd20%tothepriceoftheguidesandensurethatatleastthisproportionoftheirturnovergoestoacentralboltingexpensesfund(hostedbytheFFME,orrockfaxthemselves?).

    Peoplewhohaveboltedroutesinacertainareacouldapplytothisfundforcompensationfortheboltingcostsandeffortiftheirrouteappearsinarockfaxguide.Theamountofcompensationreceivedwoulddependonthenumberofcopiesoftheguidebookthathavebeensold.

    Iwouldbealothappierwithmyrockfaxguidebookpurchase(evenifitwas20%moreexpensive)ifIknewthatmymoneywasdirectlycontributingtotheboltingofthecragsthatisdescribes.

    Inmanyareas,anaddedbenefitforthecragdeveloperswouldbethattheycanspendmoretimedoingwhattheyaregoodatclimbingandnewrouting,andlesstimeonstrugglingtowriteauseableguidebook.

    Bruce

    DavidAtchisonJones

    2009020811:50:30

    HiBruce,nicetoseeyourpostingitbringsupafewpointsthatasapublisherIcanshowhowthingsdon'twork.Whenyoupublishbooks,orevensellanygoodsinashop,itallworksonmarkupcommissionthatislifefullstop.Soifyouadd1eurotoabookatcost,thenyouaddaround6extraeurostoshipping,finance,shopcommission,distributorcommissionandofcoursethatlovelyTVAtax.Henceitisjustaboutthemostludricouswayoftryingtoraiseanysortofrevenuesinceitallgetscreamedoff.Ifyoucansimplyadd1euroatthesalespoint perfectofcourse.ThatisthereforeuptotheretailersIamsuretheFrenchgovernmentwouldstillrequireTVAthough.

    DavidFalkmadeanicepointinthankingMarcoTforaccesswork,andIwouldjustliketoaddtothat.

    Asapureclimber.MytypicalinstanceisclimbingintheVerdon.IrefusetobuyanotherguidebookIhave3ontheshelfalreadyandcertainlywon'tneedanotheroneinmylifetime.However,IalwayshaveacollectionforeachdaythatIclimbtherewithfriendsandwegenerallygive5euroseachtotheboltfundatthePVert.Itisamazinghowquicklyyougetupto100euros,andithelpsagainstthedecimationoftherainforestetc.IfIamhonesttoo,IsimplybinmosttoposthatIbuy,moneypaidtowhoeveranddone.Iwouldrathermoreplaceshaveaequipmentfundingpoint.Printingprettyawfultoposthatyousendstraightintotherecyclingbinisnotthatagoodideareally.

    Ithinkthatalotofclimbersaremorethanhappytogivemoneytoaboltfundsowhybotherlinkingittoanythinganyway?

    9b

    2009020812:23:20

    @David:toletclimbersmakeafreedonationtolocalbolters,publisherscanputasimpleDONATEbutton intheirwebsite.

    POD

    2009020818:57:39

    AlanJameswrote:"Forexample,didyoudonatetoboltfundswhenyouweremakingyourlivingoutofsellinggeartoclimbers?"

    IfpurchasingmyownHilti(800Euros),bolts,hangersandloweroffsonaregularbasis,andpersonallyequipping(aftercleaning,pathclearing,etc.)newclimbscounts,thentheanswerisYES!

    Ifprovidingphotographsandtranslationsfreeofchargetolocalguidebooksinmyarea,ofwhichagoodproportionofsalesgoesdirectlytoboltfundingfornewprojectscounts,thenagain,theanswerisYES!

    Asforbusinessesinvolvedinnonguidebookactivitiesbeingequallyresponsibleforboltfundcontributions,Ibegtodiffer.Rockfaxprofitdirectlyfromthisactivity.Notonlythat,butyourcurrentmethodsofinformationgatheringeffectivelyuselocalactivistsandrecordersasunconsulted,unpaidresearchers.

    Moneyaside,therealissueisoneofethics.IfagroupoflocalclimbersFrench/Spanish/Italian,whatever,decidetocleanandequipasuperbnewarea,andhandoutinfoinwhichevermannertheychoosethenvisitingclimbersshouldbegratefulforthat,andstopcomplainingthattheguidebookis"hardtofind"or"notuptothestandardoftheRFguides".

    Itmakesmeutterlysicktoreadcommentslike"thelocalsneedtogettheirshittogetherandproduceproperguidebooks".Whythef...shouldthey?Isn'titenoughthatthey'vedonethePROPERhardworkinthefirstplace?

    PeteO'Donovan

    jghedge 2009020819:17:49

    OKMick,nowcondescendinglytellPetehe'snotlistening...betteryetjustignorewhathe'ssayingandpersonallyattackhim

    MichaelRyan 2009020819:22:24

    Peteisn'tslanderingormakingfalseclaimsaboutplagiarism.Consequentlyheislistenedtowithrespect.

    Imaynotagreewithentirelybuthedoeshavesomegoodpoints.

    DavidFalt

    2009020819:46:35

    @RyanandRockfax

    Idon'tknowwhatRockfaxisandwouldnotbuyitasIpreferlocaltoposbutI'msurethereisamarketoutthereforyoutodevelopandyoushoulddothat.Butasallbusinessitneedsadaptationtothelocalmarketconditions.ResponsibilityisonekeywordandRespectanother.

    YouaresokeenonthisslandertalkIalmostthinkyouareaambulancechasinglawyerbutIknowbettersoIwilldeferfromgoingdownthatroad.ButIgettrulypissedatyoulackofrespectfortheworkofFFME.Ifyoudon'tseethevalueofwhattheyaredoingandwhatotherlocalsaredoingforusTHECOMMUNITYIsuggestyoustayhomeintheUKandorgotoLofoten.

    Itisyouasabusinessownerwhohastofigureoutaresponsiblewaytiintegrateyourbusinessintothelocalcommunity.

    MichaelRyan 2009020820:29:10

    IhavefullrespectfortheFFMEDavid,asIdofortheBMCandtheUS,AccessFund.

    TogiveyousomebackgroundofmyexperiencesoyoucanseewhereIamcomingfrom.....

    IworkandhaveworkedcloselywiththetheBMCandtheUS,AccessFund.I'veworkedcloselyonaccesswiththeBureauofLandManagementandtheUSForestServiceinbothBishop,CaliforniaandLasVegas,Nevada.

    I'veestablishedsportroutesintheUK,Spain(Siurana),andtheUSA:andestablished100'sofnewboulderproblems,and'developed'severalnewareasthatarenowverypopular.

    IhavepublishedandauthoredguidebooksintheUKandintheUSA(Rumney,CathedralandWhitehorse,Rifle,LasVegasandBishop).

    IhavewrittenseveralarticlesonAccess,andproducedpostersandorganisedaccessevents.

    Ihavealsohavehadmyworkrippedoff:ToposwhichIworkedonforhundredsofhourshavebeencopiedanddistributed.RouteliststhatIoriginallyresearchedanddocumentedforthefirsttime,havebeenusedbyotherguidebookauthorsandpublishers.

    WhatIdoobjecttoistheblunderbussapproachofMarcoTroussier,yetrecognisehishardworkforaccess.Distributingemailsliketheonepublishedby8a.nuthatinitiatedthisdiscussioniscounterproductivetoasatisfactoryresolution.

    Sowhatisthesolutiontoforeignguidebookpublishersproducingguidebookstodestinationareas?

    Thatiswhatthefocusshouldbeon.

    Cheers,

    Mick

    AlanJames 2009020821:13:29

    PODsaid"IfpurchasingmyownHilti(800Euros),bolts,hangersandloweroffsonaregularbasis,andpersonallyequipping(aftercleaning,pathclearing,etc.)newclimbscounts,thentheanswerisYES!Ifprovidingphotographsandtranslationsfreeofchargetolocalguidebooksinmyarea,ofwhichagoodproportionofsalesgoesdirectlytoboltfundingfornewprojectscounts,thenagain,theanswerisYES!"

    Ah,butthatisPeteO'Donovandoinggoodwork.I'vedoneallthatboltinginthePeak,Accessmeetings,contributionstoboltfundsandaccessfundsthatishowitshouldbe.Butitiscompletelydifferentfromacompanydonation.Imaginetheconsequencesofa50plevybeingappliedtoeverychalkbagyoumade?

    PODsaid"Asforbusinessesinvolvedinnonguidebookactivitiesbeingequallyresponsibleforboltfundcontributions,Ibegtodiffer.Rockfaxprofitdirectlyfromthisactivity.Notonlythat,butyourcurrentmethodsofinformationgatheringeffectivelyuselocalactivistsandrecordersasunconsulted,unpaidresearchers."

    Alloutdoorbusinessesbenefithugelyfromthepresenceofaccessagreementsandbolts.Soyou'dsellasmanychalkbagsthenifallthecragswereclosedandtherewasnobolting?Youmake(made)yourlivingoutofclimberstothesameextentasme.

    PODalsosaid"Itmakesmeutterlysicktoreadcommentslike"thelocalsneedtogettheirshittogetherandproduceproperguidebooks".Whythef...shouldthey?Isn'titenoughthatthey'vedonethePROPERhardworkinthefirstplace?"

    Wellifitisn't"PROPERhardwork"thenanyidiotcandoit.

    hmmm...talkingofrespect,and'offense"....!

    Alan

    StefanoVarnerin

    2009020822:18:53

    MichaelRyansaid"Sowhatisthesolutiontoforeignguidebookpublishersproducingguidebookstodestinationareas?"RESPECTTHEWILLOFLOCALDEVELOPERS!!!ANDIFTHEYGIVEUTHEPERMISSIONOFPUBBLISHAGUIDEUMUSTGIVETHEMAPARTOFTHEPROFIT!IfindAlanwordsoffensive.Idon'tthinkuevennowwhatmeanrespect,soican'timmaginuaskingtolocalclimbersifucanusetheirwork.........andalsoboltsinthepeak..............bhaineverbeetobutthisisthefirsttimethatihearofboltsinthetradparadise

    POD

    2009020822:35:35

    AlanJamessaid:"PODalsosaid"Itmakesmeutterlysicktoreadcommentslike"thelocalsneedtogettheirshittogetherandproduceproperguidebooks".Whythef...shouldthey?Isn'titenoughthatthey'vedonethePROPERhardworkinthefirstplace?"

    Wellifitisn't"PROPERhardwork"thenanyidiotcandoit.

    hmmm...talkingofrespect,and'offense"....!

    Alan"

    Inthis,andearlierposts,wehaveasummaryoftheRockfaxattitude.Whenpresentedwithideasaimedatachievingclosercollaborationwithlocalactivists,theydeflectallrelevantquestionsandinsteadresorttopersonalattacksonindividuals.

    TheplainfactisthatRockfaxhasthesamemodusoperandiasanyotherpirateguidei.e.minimalinvolvementoflocals=maximumprofitsforRockfax.

    PeteO'Donovan.

    AlanJames 2009020822:41:47

    RubbishPOD.TheonlyinsultsinherehaveallbeendirectedatRockfax.Iwouldlovetoworkwithlocals alwayshave,andalwayswill.

    Youcompletelylostthisargumentwithyour'properwork'comment.Howshitwasthat!!!!

    Alan

    Jens

    2009020823:14:05

    @POD:Itotallyagreewithyou.ItmakesmesicktoreadalltheseattacksbytheRockfaxguysandInowcanundderstandhowfrustratedMarcoTroussierwereinthefirstplacewhenhetriedtocommunicateovertheissue.

    Ithinkweshoulddrawaveryclearlinebetweenlocaltopoproducerswhopresenttheirworkmainlyinordertoinviteclimbers,

    andtheoneswhomainlyareproducingtopos,inordertomakemoney.Clearly,itisthecapitalistswhoarecreatinglocalaccessproblems.

    Idothinkweshouldoptforhavingtopoproducerswhoareinthemiddleofthesebothsides!

    MichaelRyan 2009020823:42:59

    ThetoneofthisdiscussionwassetbyyouJens...andyoucontinue.

    Intheinitialreportonyournewspagetherewerethefollowingslanderousandinflammatorycomments.

    "Rockfaxisstealinglocalmoneyandcreatingaccessproblems.Moralityagainstprofit,chooseyourcamp"

    Thishasbeenfollowedbyinsultsbyindividualposters.

    Youinflamepeoplewithyourrhetoric,wildassumptionsandfalsehoods.

    Ifyoustatetheissueclearlyandobjectively,apositivedialoguewillresult.

    Inthiscaseithasn'tandinfactthisisthewrongplaceforaconstructivedialogue.

    Firstoffalloutofcountryguidebookpublishers,whopublishforeigndestinationguidesshouldbecontacted.

    ThenperhapstheFFMEandothernationalclimbingbodiescandrawupacodeofpractice,andthatcouldincludedonationstolocalaccessandreequippingorganisations,andconsultationswithindividualsandorganisationsonaccessconcernsandwhichcliffsshouldstayunpublished.

    Atthesametime,asIhaverepeatedtimeandtimeagain,thebestwaytomakeitcommerciallyunviableforforeignpublisherstopublishisforlocalsinanareatopublishamultilingualselectareaguidebook.

    Notonlythattheywouldbenefitfinanciallyfromthesaleofalocallyproducedareaguidebook.

    Howsimpleisthat?

    Mick

    grigri

    2009020905:20:34

    Itshardtobelievethatthepeopleinthisthreadrepresentthecognoscentioftheeuropean(UKincluded)climbingpress.Yousoundlikeabunchofsquabblingpreschoolkids!

    MonsieurTroussierhasaveryvalidpoint,thanksforpostingupthelinktoaccesstoposonepositivepostatleast.Theideaofhavingareawebsiteswherebirdnesting,parkingandotheraccessissues,aswellasnewrouteinfo,canbeupdatedisalsoaverygoodone.

    Rockfaxguys:buckup!Ifyoudontcontributetothelocalfederations/developersyoubloodywelloughtto!!Stoptryingtodiverttheblameontoothertopoproducers(eg:MikaelCorronmakesapointofonlydoingtoposoftouristdestinations).

    Workingtogetherinsteadofsquabblinglikeabunchofimmaturebratsistheonlywaytheseproblemscanbeaddressed.Climbinginothercountriesisnotarightitisapriviledge,respectforthelocalsisofparamountimportanceinourevershrinkingworld.

    MarcoTroussier

    2009020908:36:52

    Youlookingatcliffincludingthosewithenveronementalproblemsclickhere:http://www.ffme.fr/site/FALAISE_index.phpButyouwon'tfind"secretspots"whereproblemsarereallytough.Youwanttobuyatopoclickhere:http://www.ffme.fr/boutique/index.htmendofthepage.Youwon'tfind"secretspots",andsomeothertoposinprocesslikeTarn,Dourbieetc...cragsaroundverdon,cragsaroundSisteronarecurrentlyinprocess,don'tpublish,don'tcopy.....CLIMBGLOBAL,BUYLOCALTOPOS!

    AlanJames 2009020910:39:26

    IwillreiteratethatRockfaxrecognisesthecontributionthatboltingmakestoclimbingareasandthehardworkdonebylocaldevelopers.IntheUKwedonatesignificantamountsofmoney(probablymorethananyothercompany,certainlyrelativetoturnover)towardsboltingandaccess.WearemorethanhappytoconsiderdothisinFranceifsuchacentralfundcanbefound,howeverwewouldlikeittobepartofawiderinitiativethatbringsinallcompanieswhobenefitfromthepresenceofboltsandgoodaccesstocrags.Failingsuchaninitiativewewouldstillbehappytodiscussthepossibilitieswithlocaldevelopers.

    WerecognisethevitallyimportantissueofaccessandwilldoourutmosttosupportandcommunicategoodaccessinformationtoclimbersfromalloverEurope.Bypublishingaguidebookthatintroducesmanycragstononlocalclimbersforthefirsttimewehopetohelpspreadtheloadofclimbersawayfromtheoverpopularcrags.Wewouldwelcomeapproachesfromanyclimbersconcernedaboutaccessinformationtotheircrags.

    RockfaxisdedicatedtoproducingthebestqualityclimbinginformationtoareaalloverEuropeandwearecontinuallystrivingtoimproveourcoverageandmethodsofcoverage.Allourbooksareresearchedfromamultitudeofsources.Wealsoareverykeentoworkwithlocalactivistswhereappropriateandwillhappilyenterintoarrangementswithlocalclimberswhicharemutuallybeneficialforbothparties.

    ThisismylastwordonthesubjectonthisthreadsinceIfeelIcannolongercontributeonaforumrunbysomeonewhohasapersonalvendettaagainstmyselfandmycompany.AnyonewhowishestocontinuethedebateiswelcometomoveitovertoUKClimbing.comwhereIpromiseIwillnotremovepostsbasedontheircontentbeingantiRockfaxorUKC.

    Thanksforallthepositivecontributions.

    AlanJames,RockfaxandUKClimbing.com

    grigri

    2009020911:35:37

    @AJImgladtohearRockfaxdoesindeedcontributetothecause.IhopethatfurtheriniativescanbeforgedtobridgetheageolddividebetweenFranceandBritain.

    Thisisadifficulttopic,I,myselfamaguideauthoranddeveloper,andassuchwouldobviouslypreferpeopletolearnaboutourcragfromus.Butonlineguidescaninformandattractvisitorstoanareatheywouldnothaveheardofbeforewhichisgreatifthelocalsactuallywantvisitors.Distributionthroughthenetisstillfraughtwithissuesaspeoplecaneasilycopyguidesandgetawaywithouteverpayingforit badfortheauthors.Lockedpdfsolutionsareavailablebutonecanstillprintmultiplecopies.Sohowtogettheinfooutthere(ifyouwantitoutthere!)?Printedbooksremainthesafestwaytoprotectcopyright.Itsoundslikethereisagreatmarketfortranslatorstohelplocalauthorsproduceprintedguidesinmorelanguages.@M.Troussier:Perhapsthisisabusinessopportunity?

    Jens

    2009020911:44:56

    Iassume,MarcoTroussierandtherestoftheclimbingcommunityincludingmyselfareveryhappywiththaanswerofhowRockfaxwillworkinthefuture.

    Thismeansinfactthatitwasagoodideatopublishthenewsinthefirstplace.

    However,howAlanJamescanfinishhisverypositivewithyetanotherpersonalattackisjustverysad.Thelastsentencespeakforitself,"IpromiseIwillnotremovepostsbasedontheircontentbeingantiRockfaxorUKC".Asyouareevenhavensuchthoughtinyourmindissad!

    IhaveverypositivetowardsRockfax,"SomeofmyclimbingtripsisadirectresultasofaRockfaxguideandIhaveneverbeendisappointedofwhattheyhaveproduced."

    IhavealsoinvitedAlanandpublishedaresponsedirectelyonthefirstpage.

    HaeMeS

    2009020911:56:58

    Beingabigconsumerofbothlocaland'foreign'guidebooks,letmeshedalightonhowI(asaconsumer)feelaboutguidebooks.I'vegotabout200differentguidebooksathome,soI'mnotentierlycluelessonthesubjectofbuying/usingthem.

    Somewordsonusefullness:SayIwanttospendaprolongedholidayin(acertainpartof)France/Spain/Italy.I'mnotsureyetwheretogo,butwouldliketosampleanumberofdifferentarea's.AguidebookliketheonesproducedbyRockfax,JingoWobbly,LoboEdition,[theAndalusiaTopo],orVersanteSudiswhatIneedinordertoorientateandgettotheareainthefirstplace.I'llalwaysbuythelocalguidebookwhenavailableandfindable.Whichisoftenaproblem!Localsmightknowhowtofindthem,butforeignersoftendon't.

    Somewordsaboutavailability(inFrance):Localguidebookpublishersoftendonotunderstandhowtodistributetheirguidebooks.TakeforinstancethenewTarnguidebook,publishedbijtheCAFMillau.Tryandgoogle[tarntopocafmillau].Doesitleadyoutotheguidebook?No.TryandGoogle[climbingAvignon].LeadsmestraighttoJingoWobbly.Getthepoint?Anotherexample:whenIGooglefor[escaladeventoux],thefirsthit(GooglesearchininHolland)leadstoaDutchshopsellingtheJingoWobblyguidebook.NomentionofthenewguidebooktoStLegeronthefirstpageoftheGoogle_search.

    Inowoftheexistenceofhttp://www.soescalade.com/inAvignon.InowIcanbuylocalFrenchguidebooksfromthemonlineorintheirshop.Butnoteverybodydoes,right?It'snotthatstrangethatsomeonenewtotheareaandwantingtohaveinformationaboutwheretoclimbbeforehe/shegetsthereisgoingtobuyaRockfax/JingoWobblyguidebookwithfarbetteravailability/onlinepresentation.Andtakethetroublemostpeoplehavewithforeignlanguages.Ifpresentedwiththechoicebetween2guidebooks,bettertaketheEnglishone.

    WhyblaimagoodproductionliketheRockfaxguidebooks,withaveryinformativeinternetsitetobackuptheguidebookforbeingsuccesfull?Asthoseguidebooksareoftenfaraheadoflocalguidebooksintermsofcontent,quality,availabilityandinformationaboutthemontheinternet,Ihavethefeelingthatthosecritizisingaresimplyjealousoftheirsuccess.Thisishowoursocietyworks.Weliketobuythebestproductsandbuythemfromcompaniesthatmaketheprocessofbuingeasyforus.

    Ontheotherside,somelocalguidebooksmadeby(forinstancethosemadebythelatePierreRouzo)arelovelyworksofart,withgreatattentiontodetail.Ialwaysbuythemandhopeeverybodyappreciatingtheworkoflocalequiperswilldothesame.ButIalsohopethatinsteadofbeingnarrowmindedandunabletounderstandtheneedsof(northernEuropeans?)visitingclimbers,peoplelike(forinstance)MarcoT(typicalreactionofsomeonefromsouthernEurope?)willacceptthewaythingsworkintherealworldandwelcomeguidebookslikeRockfaxandacknowledgetheirmerits.

    HaeMeS

    p.s.Jens:tryandrunthissiteabitmorelikeaprofessionaleditor/journalist.Audiaturetalterapars.WhenMTinforms8aaboutanissuelikethisone,betheonetogoroundaskingquestionstothoseinvolved.Thenanalyseandwriteathoughtfularticleabouttheissue.Thatswhatdifferentiatesagoodjournalistfromarandominternetbloggerwithanillinformedrant.

    abcclimbing.com

    2009020912:01:59

    wellwellwellThankstoPeteO'Donovanwhohadsomeverygoodpointsinthisdiscussionandbroughtittoawaymoreconstructivelevel.Ifhefeelsseriousaboutit,thanthelastpostofAlanJamesdoespleasemealot.Iwouldlovethatthepersonsinvolvednowcouldworkonaconstructivesolutionoftheproblemsencountred.Namelythefoundraisingtogivebackthedeveloperssomeoftheworktheyareputtingin.Andevenifitwouldbequitesymbolical(youwon'tbeabletogivedevelopersthemoneybackforthetimeandnoteventhemoneyinvestedin100routes).Secondly,delicateand/or"secret"areasshouldstaysecretifthedeveloperswhishso.Butwhotakesthedecision,ifseveralbolted?Bytheway,Iuserockfax and/orother"general"guidebooksalottodecidewheretogoandbeforeIgo.ThelocalguidebooksarenormalymorecompleteandIalwayspurchasethemtoo.

    abcclimbing.com

    2009020912:15:34

    Anideaifwearetalkingaboutaccessproblems...Ireallylike8aforthedatabaseitisandalargeamountofrockclimbers(andthereforeknowledge)itrepresents.Wouldn'titbegreat,ifon8aorONEotherhomepage,therewouldbecentralinformationaboutaccessproblems/restrictions/...AND,therecouldandshouldaswellbealinktoanhomepage,thatprovidesthenewestinformationonthismatter.ASWELL,onecouldextendthisfunctionwithlinkstohomepagesand/orplaceswhereyoucanpurchasethetopos(asitisoftendifficultwithlocalonestoencounterthem).Thiswouldbesomeworkforthewebmaster,butthecommunitycouldfillinthedata.Onthelongrun,everybodywouldwinbyeasilyencounteringtheinformationoralinktoit.

    MichaelRyan 2009020914:50:23

    JensLarssensaid:>"However,howAlanJamescanfinishhisverypositivewithyetanotherpersonalattackisjustverysad."

    Jens,onyournewspageyouaccusedAlanofcausingaccessproblemsandbeingathief.

    That'snotjustsad,itsdownrightdisgracefulandslanderous.Yououghtbeashamedofyourself.

    TakenoteofwhatHaeMeSsaid:

    "p.s.Jens:tryandrunthissiteabitmorelikeaprofessionaleditor/journalist.Audiaturetalterapars.WhenMTinforms8aaboutanissuelikethisone,betheonetogoroundaskingquestionstothoseinvolved.Thenanalyseandwriteathoughtfularticleabouttheissue.Thatswhatdifferentiatesagoodjournalistfromarandominternetbloggerwithanillinformedrant."

    AndJens,goodeffortonyourdecisiontoincludeaccessinformationinyourcragdatabase.

    Mick

    AlbertCortes

    2009020915:02:05

    Lastyear,theformerownerofMontanejosRefugio,publishedaguide.Almostatthesametimeotherpeopleproducedanotherone.Ernesto,theformerownerclaimedthattopotobebannedanditwenttotrial.Lastnovember,aspanishcourtpassedsentenceagainsttheMontanejostopoproducedbythosepeoplethatsimplymadethetoposhimselvesbutneverboltedorhelpedMontenejosinanywaytodevelopit,asweknowitnowadays.Thecourtorderedthetopotobetakenawayfromallbookshopsanda30000eurofinetotheproducers.

    Thesearefacts.

    Now,whenIgetholdofthefinalpartofthatsentence,Iwilltranslateandpostithere.

    Jens

    2009020916:02:14

    @Michael:IhavenotaccusedAlanofanything.However,IhavequotedMarcoTroussierwhohadsomenegativethingstosayaboutRockfax.Tosumup,wecaseethatAlanhasanewwiewontheissue,comparedtothemailconversationhehadwithMarco,andthatisgood.

    @Albert:Iguess,thismeansthatRockfaxoranyotherexternaltopoproducer,infact,areatriskinaspanishcourt.

    DavidAtchisonJones

    2009020916:44:25

    HiAlbert,IwaswonderinghowlongitwouldtakeonthistopicforourgoodfriendErnestotoenterthearena.Justtokeepeveryoneelseinformed,hesinglehandedlydevelopedanentireareaonhisownandwithoutandassistancefromanyone.Apartfrombeingaverygoodclimberhewasacompleteeccentric.Hepublishedhistoposondarkredpaper"sonobastardcouldcopythem."Honestitstrue!

    OnebigconundrumwithFranceisthattheFFMEdoessecurefundingforprofessionalpaidclimberstoequipcliffs andalmostentirelyatthelowerendofthegradessinceschoolsandclubsusethecliffs.Thisisallgovernmentmoneypaidbythetaxpayers.Nowconsider:Mostofthenewcliffsbeingdevelopedonlyreallycontainroutesof7bupwards.Thereforehavingageneralcollectionfundishardlygoingtoappealtothoseclimbinginthegrade5or6'swhyshouldtheysponsorroutesandcliffstheynevergoto.It'sgoingtobeabigquestionfor8aclimberstoanswer.Idoubttherearetoomanygrade5climberssurfingthissitetoletthisfeelingbeknownbutIwouldnotbesurprisedifthefeelingwerequitestrong.

    Ifontheotherhandyoumakecollectionsfortheboltsattheactualdevelopmentcliffsthemselveswherethe7a8croutesare,theclimbersgetachancetotalktotheequippersandlettheirfeelingsknownonthestyleofboltingetc,plusyouexactlytargetthepeopleclimbingthoseroutesinthosegrades.Simplicityisusuallyaverygoodanswer.

    MichaelRyan 2009020917:26:15

    AlanJamesofRockfaxhasnotchangedhispositionatanystageduringthedebatehecameinsayingexactlywhathesaidwhenheleft.

    SononewviewfromRockfax.

    AasimilarlegalsituationtotheoneAlbertoCortesmentionswasdroppedintheUKin2001becausebothpartiescametotheconclusionthatseekingalegalsolutionwasnotinthebestinterestsofclimbers.

    Thishassubsequentlybeenprovenbeyonddoubtwithbothpartiesgoingontoproducebetterpublicationsthaneverinthesamecompetingareas.

    Mick

    9b

    2009020917:34:02

    @grigri:itstruethatonecanprintmultiplecopiesoflockedpdf,but,really,printedbooksarenotsafer:YoucanmakephotocopiesandwithascannerdigitalizethemandprintasmanycopiesasYouwant.Andthereisemuletoo...

    Internetisgoingtobemoreandmore"allfree"andthereissomething"betterthanfree"too...

    AlbertCortes

    2009020917:50:21

    IntheSpanish"case"therehasbeenNOAGREEMENTbetweenbothparties,sothe"ilegalguide"hasbeenwithdrewfromsellinganddistributing,itseemsabigdifferencetothesituationintheUKthatMickRyanmentions.

    BrianRunnells

    2009020917:51:48

    Themainnewsarticlestillreadsasthough8aistheonesayingthatRockfaxisstealingfromlocaldevelopers. Wouldittakethatlongtoexercisesomepunctuationandeditingtomakethingsmoreclear?

    Pillard 2009020918:04:49

    Heyall,

    Idon'twanttojumpintothedebate,butjustsaythatunlikeseveralofyouguys,IreallyappreciatedthewayJenshandledthiscase.Hesimplyreportedsomeoneelse'sconcerns,which,oncereinterpretedwouldhavecompletelylosttheirsubstance.

    Somepeopleherelikethepoliticallycorrect,probablytoprotecttheirbusinesses.I,asaclimber,liketrueopinions.whichincidentallyareoftennotverycompatiblewithbusiness...Pleasedon'tletpersonnalinterestsdestroythespiritofclimbing!

    Onanothernote,Idontbelievethatitisveryusefulltomakefalseclaimsandtogivemoralitylessons:everythingdependsonone'sopinion:Regardingthisnews,andtomyopinionJenshasnothingtobeashamedof(unlikeseveralothers...)

    GoodjobJens...andgoodclimbingtoeveryone!:)

    Jens

    2009020918:25:06

    @Brian:Idonotunderstandyourproblemofunderstanding.WhenIreadanewspaperandtheyqoutesomebody,youcandoitthesamewayIdidit.

    "...,accordingTroussier.Theclimbingcommunity..."InSwedentheisalwaysusedforqoutes.

    @Pillard:Thanksalot.Ihaveprobablymade1000postintheforumandIamgladthatyounoticedthatIhaveneversaidanythingnegativeaboutanotherperson.Ialwaystrytodiscussthesubject.Thesadthingisthatprobably,40%ofthepostsintheforumhavesomekindofpersonalinsultsormoralitylessons.Ihopethatasyoubroughtitup,thispercentagewouldbereducedinthefuture!

    jghedge 2009020918:35:07

    FromDesniveltoday:

    http://www.desnivel.com/object.php?o=18116

    "pirateosinescrpulos","puroplagiodeguaspublicadas"

    Notburiedinthearticlemindyou,butinthetitle.

    StillunaddressedinthisthreadbyRockFaxiswhetheritwill"ceaseanddesist"guideproductionifthelocaldeveloperstellthemto.I'mstillgettingtheimpressionthatRFthinksithastherighttogoaheadandpublishifitcannotcometoanyagreementwiththelocals,whichsurelyinmanycasesitwillnotget,duetoRF'spastbusinesspractices.Ipersonallydon'tthinkchargingextraforaRFguidetocompensatethedeveloperswillworkastheRFguidesarealreadytooexpensiveasitis,andanyoneconcernedabouttheissuesthatchargingmoresupposedlyaddresseswillsimplydotheethicalthingand"climbgloballybutbuylocaltopos"asMarcosays.

    "Hayotroscasosenlosqueelplagiooelpuroparasitismovaaltiempoqueeltrabajodecampo.UnejemploconocidoeseldelasfamosasRockFax."

    Ouch.

    grigri

    2009020918:51:44

    @9b,averyinterestingarticlethanks.Istillfeelthatthedifficultyofcopyinghardcopy(iestandingatthescannerallafternoon)atleastactsasadetterenttowouldplagarisers.Writingrecognitionsoftware(fordigitalizing)isnotperfectandstillrequiresalotofediting,thiswillchangesoonbutfornowthereisstillsomesecurityinhardcopy.Thereisalsolotsofsoftwarearoundfor'unlocking'pdf'sandretrievingthedata.Asfaras'generatives'areconcernedwehavetriedtoaddressthisbyofferinganemailupdateservisetothosewhopurchaseourbook.Theupdateswontmakesensewithoutthebook,andthebookwithouttheservicesoongoesoutofdate.Wecandiscussthisfurtheron9bifulike.

    Withregardtothisdebate:Inthefutureelectronicguidescouldofferaddedvaluegenerativessuchasrouteupdatesandinformationservices(access,newaccomodationplacesetc),translationintoyourhomelanguage(bigmarket),streamliningoftopotoreflectyourgraderange(nounnecesaryinfo),directpaymenttodeveloperswithaspecificationofwhichgradesyouwouldliketoseemoreof,discountsonguidesfromthesame(oraffiliated)productionhouse,etc,etc.Ifyoustarttothinkaboutthereareendlessopportunitiesforcooperationand,yes,profit.Hopefullyanewperspectiveonwhatweareactuallydoingandsellingwilleventuallymakeargumentssuchasthistotallyredundant,andopenupavastrangeofavenuesforcooperation.IlookforwardtothedaywhenIcantakeportableelectronicnotebooktothecragandallthisinfocanbestoredremotelytobedl'edatwill(thissiteisanindicationofthistrend),thenwecanstopchoppingdowntreestomakebookswith.

    9b

    2009020922:05:06

    Grigri,therearenotjustpdforpaperguidebooks.Thereareebookstogetherwithvideos andonlineinteractive"topogroups" ,asI'mdescribinghereon9b,whereforsureYouasothersarewelcometodiscuss.Yes,thereareendlessopportunitiesforcooperation,freeinternetistheworldforit.Thepointisthatifyouwanttogainsomethinginafreeinternetworld,thebestbusinessmodelis...tocooperate,begenerous.Whystandingatthescannerifnottosavemoney?

    WhynotstartgivingYourhelptosavemoneyinsteadof"deterrents"?Theclimberwhoprefersspendinganafternoonatthescanner,insteadofpaying25eurosfortheprintedtopo,maybewouldpay5eurosforabasicpdf,savinganafternoon.Otherdifferentclimberswouldnotbesatisfiedfromabasicpdf,sotheyprefertospend25eurosforanalreadyprintedversion,happytopayadditionalpricecoveringcostsforpaper,stock,distribution,shipping.So,2/3versionsofthesameproduct:differentprice/qualitylevels,betterpersonalization.Sometimescooperationisjustgivingthemtheversiontheyprefer.

    Jens

    2009020922:06:24

    ThearticleatDesnivelareindeedverynegativetoRockfaxandothers.

    Inthecaseof8a,weonlypublishedthepersonalopinionsofMarcoTroussier,andneverthelessweinvitedRockfaxtopublishanansweronthefirstpage.

    InthecaseofDesnivel,itisDesnivelthatforwardstheaccusationsbutthereisnowaytoanswerwithacomment.Itwillbeinterestingtoseewhathappends.MaybeRockfaxwanttopublishthesameopenletterastheydidon8a,andwillDesnivelagreeonthat.

    AsweallcouldseethattheRockfaxguyswerereallyupsetwiththestoryon8a,wecanexpectmuchworsecollissionbetweenRockfaxandDesnivel!

    HaeMeS

    2009020922:30:47

    DearJens,

    Doeyouunderstandwhatlanguageyouwrotethe'artikel'(...)in?Letmehelpyou:itwasEnglish.Yousay:"InSwedentheisalwaysusedforqoutes."Ididnotlooklikeaquotetome.Besides,howcanyouhonestlywritesomethinglikethis(asaformofdefence?)thisfardownadiscussion?LookattheanswersfromMichaelandAlan,orPeteandDavid.Theyarefarbetteratreasoningthanyou.You'rejustnotuptothisjob.Forgodssake,hireaneditor.Bemoreprofessionaltheconceptof8a.nuisgood,youarenot.

    Quote:"Thesadthingisthatprobably,40%ofthepostsintheforumhavesomekindofpersonalinsultsormoralitylessons.Ihopethatasyoubroughtitup,thispercentagewouldbereducedinthefuture!"

    Justbecauseonepersonsayssomethinginyourfavor,youdon'tneedtoemphasiseit.Orisitthatrareforyoutogetacomplement?Doyouthinkwebsiteslikeplanetmountain,UKclimbing,Desnivel,Supertopo,Kairntonameafewgetthislevelofcritisismthrownbackatthem?No,Idon'tthinkso.Growup,getalife.Hireaneditor.Stoppostingyourself,inthisfunnyEngishofyoursandsticktothebackofficeapsof8a.nu.Plentyofworktodoforonthatfront.Sorrytohaveinsultedyou,butIthinkthere'snootherwaytosaythis.It'sallreadybeensaidoftentoyoubutyoushownosignofimprovement.

    MichaelRyan 2009021000:06:09

    ItmustbethelanguagebarrierorgodforbidJensiscompletelynuts!

    Icanbelieveanyonewouldsoslanderousandprovocative.Mustbethelanguagedifficulties!

    "AsweallcouldseethattheRockfaxguyswerereallyupsetwiththestoryon8a,wecanexpectmuchworsecollissionbetweenRockfaxandDesnivel!"saysJens.

    NoJens,asHaeMeSandothershavesaid,itisthewayyouhavecutandpastetheNewsreportfromanemailwithnoeditorialfilter,objectivenessorfairness.....nottomentionbadpunctuationandshoddyquotationmarks.

    Upset?Notatall.Pissedoffwithyourunprofessionalism?

    Yes,ofcourse.

    RegardsMr40%,

    Mick

    jghedge 2009021001:19:49

    "...itisthewayyouhavecutandpastetheNewsreportfromanemailwithnoeditorialfilter,objectivenessorfairness.....nottomentionbadpunctuationandshoddyquotationmarks."

    ThatwasasnonsensicalasanythingyouaccuseJensofsaying...editorialobjectivityisafunctionofnothavinganeditorialfilter.UnlessyouworkforRupertMurdochIsuppose...

    AndofcoursetherealissuehereisnottheissuesraisedbyTroussierandDesnivel,butratherpunctuationandquotationmarks...yeahright.

    Itisgratifyingtoseethesepirates(yes,piratesandplagiaristsMick,sorryyoucan'thandlethetruth)finallygettingtheirjustdesserts.

    EllisWhitson

    2009021001:38:37

    ManyoftheuserswhohavepostedinthisthreadwoulddowelltotakeacourseinEnglishreadingcomprehensioniftheywishtocoherentlydebatesomeoftheseissues.Jensontheotherhandisessentiallyalostcauseatthispoint.Ithasactuallybecomequitehilarioustoseehimcategoricallyignoreanddenyanycriticismtowardshimself/8aandrevelinthefarceofhisownwhimsicalreality.ItisnicetoseethatJensnowacknowledgesatleast40%oftheforumhascaughtontohisinsanity,asopposedtothe1%hesuggestedafewmonthsback.

    BonarMcCallum 2009021002:00:36

    Perhapswhatisneededisforamemberofthe8acommunitytointerprettotheirbestabilitywhatissaidinthearticle.Thiscouldbedoneonarotatingbasisaspeopleseefit.Perhapsagoodwaytoapproachitistosay"whatIthinkJensissayingis...""andthenputitinthebestlightpossible.Ifthiswasdoneatthetopofeachpostitmaybeaneffectivewaytokeepthetopicslessnastyandmorepleasantandproductive.

    Oritmightjustbereallyentertaining.

    Hereismythoughtonhowthewordingintheinitialarticlecouldhavebeenwrittentotakethefocusoffof8aasaculpritandtogettotheissues.Notethatthisisallfictional,asIdon'thaveanyfacts.WhatIthinkJenswassayingwas:

    "MarcoTroussier,fromtheFrenchFederationFFME,contacted8awithregardstoguidebooksbeingproducedbyexternalorforeignsources.AccordingtoM.Troussier,publisherssuchasRockfaxarecreatingproblemsonacoupleoffronts:

    First,thereareproblemstolocalaccessduetothefactthatoftentheexternallyproducedtoposdonotincludeaccessissues.Thelocalequippers,alongwithlocalguidebookproducersworkhardtomakeandupdateaccessagreementswithlandownersandlocalauthorities,andcommunicateanyspecificdetailsinthelocallyproducedguidebooks.Asmuchofthisinformationnotintheexternallyproducedguides,thereisagravepotentialforconflictstoarisethatcausemajoraccessproblems.

    Second,M.Troussierallegesthatforeignguidebookproducersarecopyinglocalproductions,andaretakingadvantageofthehardworkthatlocalequippersandtopoproducersputintodevelopingnewcrags.Proceedsfromlocalguidebooksalesareusedtorecoupexpensesandtimeputintocragdevelopment.Thosedoingthisworkareoftenupsetwhentheyseecommercialtoposproducedabroadintheirareas.Tothemitmeansthattheprofitisgoingtosomeonewhohasputinnoefforttodevelopthearea,takingawaythisopportunityfromlocalproducers.

    Says,MTrousseau:Theyarestealinglocalmoneyandcreatingaccessproblems!

    AsRockfaxseemedtobethefocusforMarco,8acontactedAlanJamesfromRockfax.Hisresponsewas.

    Perhapstherecouldbean8aeditorialatthispoint.

    grigri

    2009021007:59:02

    IagreeBonar,Ioncedidexactlythatinadiscussionanditdefinitelydampenedthingsdownandkeptthediscussionreal.JenspleasereadBonarpostcarefullyitisagoodexampleofhowtostructureareportcontainingquotations.IreallythinkitwouldhelpyoutohaveanEnglishspeaking(firstlanguage)editoronyourteamtoavoidthesemisunderstandings.Ifinditextremelyupsettingtoreadanendlessslandermatchinsteadofhealthyandconstructivedebate.Thiscouldsoeasilybeavoidedwiththeuseofproperenglish.

    Qoutationscanbewrittenlike:

    JoeBlogs:"Blablabla".

    or:

    "Blablabla"JoeBlogs.

    Adashonitsownmeans'asfollows'or'leadsto',itdoesnotindicateaquotationever.Quotationmarksarecalledthatforareason.8ahaslongsincepastthestagewhereitcanberunaspetwebsiteoperatedfromyourloungeorthelocalwirelesscafe.Thereneedstobealevelofprofessionalismwhichatpresentissadlylacking.Ireallythinkyourtimewouldbebetterspentimprovingonthefunctionalityofthewebsite(likeadecentforumforexamplepostinghereispainfullyslow)ratherthanendlesslydefendingyourselfforsimpleeditorialmistakesthatcouldeasilyhavebeenavoidedbyemployingacompetentenglishspeakingwriter.

    Thatsaid8aisstillagreatsourceofinformation,Ithinkyouhitthenailontheheadwiththisarticle.ThesheervolumeofresponsefromtheRFcrowdindicatestomethatyouhitasorespot!!Welldone!Ihopetoseemorerealinnovations(websitefunctions)fromyouguysinfuture,butpleasegetsomehelpwiththeenglishlanguageinyourreports.

    respectfullyGregHart.

    MichaelRyan 2009021008:36:02

    Grigrisaid

    "ThesheervolumeofresponsefromtheRFcrowdindicatestomethatyouhitasorespot!!Welldone!"

    Wronganddon'tencouragehim.

    Theresponsesareduetothefactthatthisdiscussion,ashasbeenpointedoutisfullofmisinformationandpropaganda.

    It'sasmearcampaign,againstoneguidebookpublisher.

    Nothingconstructivehascomeoutofit.

    Infactnothingbutnegativityascanbeseenbycommentslikethis,

    "Itisgratifyingtoseethesepirates(yes,piratesandplagiaristsMick,sorryyoucan'thandlethetruth)finallygettingtheirjustdesserts."

    AninternetslangingmatchcausedbyJensLarssen.

    Youthinkanyonewillstoppublishingguidebooksinprintorontheinternetbecauseofthisfarce.

    Iverymuchdoubtit.

    MarcoTroussier

    2009021009:01:42

    Firstofall,thankyoufor8aandJensforhostingthoseexchangeandpointofvue.Wearenottalkingabout"+"or""aboutanewroutessomewhereinanobscurcliff.Thereareseriousproblemseverywhereintheworld.Itcoulbeaninternationalmeetingeveryyeartotalkaboutthat.Thequestion"economics"and"climbing"couldalsobeaninterestingtopic.

    Thosearesriousproblems,interdictioninFrance,waytosolvethemandwhoisdoingthejobforwho'sbenefitisagoodquestion.Thinkinglikethiscanelevatethedebate.MrJingoiswrongformanythings.Let'stalkaboutSaintlegerexample(http://www.ffme.fr/site/FALAISE_fiche.php?id=2069).TherewasstrongproblemofaccessinSaintlger.Bycycling,walkingandclimbing.ThenationalforestofficewasupsetwewereveryclosetoatotalinterdictioninSaintLgerduetoenvironnementaleuropeanpolicyofpreservation.Wedecidetonotpublishatopo beforetheproblemswouldbesolveand......MrjingodidatopocoveringthatpartofLuberon....LetsimaginetheproblemswiththeNationalofficeofforest,andyoucanimaginewhoisdoingthejobalso...notMrJingo.ThelocalrousetterwiththehelpoflocalFFME(weareworkinglikethatinFFMEnationalisnotinvolveexceptmyadviceswiththelocalcragsproblems)didthejobforthebenefitofallclimbers.....Thisisconcretecaseandthosearethefact!ThentheyfundasolutionafterseveralmeetingwithONFandclimbingisOkinSaintlgerandGrozeauand.....therisnowaFrenchtopo,theonlyonewhoisvalidtoexistTheonlyoneyouhavetobuy.Thanksforthediscussion,infrancewewillcontinuetoworkforthefreedomofclimbing(morethan200personsinvolvelocally)andwewillcontinuetosolveproblemsandwehopeyouwillbuyourtoposbecausenowtuouwouldnotsay"idon'tgivea....ofthatproblems,andidon'tcareaboutthoseclimbers".Ihopetoparticipatetoothergreatdebateavboutimportantthingsfortheclimbingcommunity.

    jghedge 2009021009:55:01

    "Youthinkanyonewillstoppublishingguidebooksinprintorontheinternetbecauseofthisfarce."

    No,butIcan'timagineRFgoingonasbefore.WhentheeditorofDesnivelcallsRFpirates,plagiaristsandparasitesintheleadeditorialoftheprinteditionofthemag...I'vebeenreadingclimbingmagsfor35yearsandIdon'tremembereverreadingeditorializinglikethat,KenWilsonoffhismedscouldn'thavetoppedit...

    Mindyou,mySpanishisn'tPh.Dlevel...maybethere'ssomebadpunctuationandshoddyquotationmarksinit,soRFmightcomeoutsmellinglikearoseafterall...

    HaeMeS

    2009021010:59:04

    InreplytoMarco:LetsuseStLegerasanexample.Youaresurelyawarethattopo'sofStLegerexistedlongbeforetheoneproducedbyJingoWobbly.Takeforinstancethistopo,madebyalocal(PauldeWilde):http://5sup.com/st_leger/topo_st_leger.pdf.Thistopodoesinfactmentiontheaccessissue:"IlnexistepasdeconventionentrelaFdration(ComitDpartementalduVaucluse)etlepropritaireduterrain."Nevertheless,thetopowasmadeanddistributed.Apartfromtheinternettopo's,StLegerwasalsoheavilypublicizedintheclimbingmedia(inprint)sinceit'searlydevelopment.

    Whatwentwronginthisinstance?Werethosewhowantedtoclimbtherewronginactualllygoing,afterhavingseenpicturesandheardstoriesaboutthisbeautifullarea?Andweretheywrongintheirneedforatopo?OrwerethosewhoequippedtheroutesWITHOUTfirstsolvingtheaccessissuewrong?I'llleaveittoyoutodecide.

    Asforthelinkyou'veprovidedtotheFFMEsite:theFFMEdoesagoodjobofprovidinginformation,regulatingtheaccesstoclimbingsitesand(supportingthe)equiping(of)thesite(s).IthinkoneshouldconsulttheFFMEbeforepublishingaboutanarea.Betterstill,oneshouldcontacttheFFMEbeforeboltinginthefirstplace.Butthereisnoneedtomonopolisetherighttopublishaguidebooktoanarea.Aslocalsareoftennotabletounderstandtheneedsofvisitingclimbers,itshardlysurprisingtheystartmakingguidebooksthatsuittheirownneeds.Thoseguidebooksareawelcomeadditiontothelocalguidebooks.WhynotusetheopportunityandstartaninitiativetoproduceFFMEareaguidebooks?It'snotjustNorthernEuropeanpublishers(Rockfax,Rotpunkt,Cicerone,Loboedition),butalsoSpanishandItalianpublisherswhoknowwhatpeoplewant(seeforinstanceAndaluciabyDavidMunillaortheVersanteSudareaguidebooks).

    Dontwhine,butact!

    DavidAtchisonJones

    2009021011:08:18

    HiMarco,Ihavereadyourcomments.IunderstandandappreciateyourworkandthatoftheFFME,ONFetc.IfirstdiscoveredSt.Legerinthemid1980s,andhavebeenwellinformedastoeverythingthathasgoneon.Tosaythewholedevelopmentwasadisasterwasanunderstatement,IcouldgoonabouttheimpactofMagazinearticles,climbersclimbinginthebioareawhentheywerenotmeantto,notusingpropercampsitesetc,etc.Noitwasadisasterandthatisthat.NoneofthesewereanythingtodowiththeJingoAvignonBook.

    Ihavetwogoodpointstoaddtothisdisussion.IboughtmyfirstMonanejostopoyearsagoinpesetas!IboughtisdirectfromErnestotheauthor.Hetookallthemoney.Theshopwashisrucksac,andthedeliverycompanywashislegstothecliff.Soafterreasonableproductioncostsofsay50%,50%ofthemoneypaidwenttotheAuthorErnesto,whowasalsotheequipper.IthoughtthiswasgreatandcameupwiththeideaofaclimbingguidebooktoEurope.ItwouldhaveallthecliffsinEuropebutnotopos.Insteadyouhadfreeadvertsforanyonethatmadeandsoldatopoatthecliff.TheneveryonecouldtravelallaroundEuropeandusethisbook.Thisideawastosupportlocalauthors/equippers.Thisbookisnowcominguptoits20 thyearandisinits5 theditionandiscalledJingoWobblyEuropeSportVertical.Soafewthanksforthepast20yearswouldbegrateful.Itisalsoworthsayingthatthisworkhastakenmeover25years,andIhavetakenovermillionphotos.Thecostinproducingthishasbeenimmense,andmoneyfrombeingtheauthoractuallyonlycoversabout10%oftheexpenditure.Ihavenotbeensupportedbyanynationalclimbingfederationitisallmoneyfrommyownpocket.

    Sohowdiditallgowrong?Itwasagreatidea.BacktoErnestoagain,hekepthisheadandrefusedtosellanyofhistopostoasecondagent,andyoucouldonlybuythemfromhim.Thiswayhegotallthe50%andmadesenseofequipping&sellingtopos.Othershoweverlosttheplot!Theysoldtheirtopostoshops,whothennaturallytooktheirpercentage,leavingtheauthorwithonly10%.Thatwaswhereitallstartedtogowrongsincetheshoptook30%,andtheshippingtookanother10%,sothewholeconceptofactuallyraisingmoneywasnotworking.EvenashoplikeSoescaladeneedstoemploystaffandusedeliveryservices.IveevenseenFrenchguidebooksforsaleinCaliforniaatacost!Inthoseinstancesonly4%ofmoneyactuallypaidwouldhavegonetotheauthor!Ifyouaregoingtousetheargumentoftopomoneygoingtoauthorswhothengiveittoequippers,thentheymustselldirecttoclimbersatthecliffsthemselvesonly.

    MichaelRyan 2009021014:47:36

    Ifanylocaltopomakers/publishersinFranceorSpainwantthereguidesdistributedintheUKcontactRichardatCordee.

    http://www.cordee.co.uk/

    Asyoucanseethereareseveralguidesalreadythere:

    France:http://www.cordee.co.uk/rockclimbguidesfrance.php

    SpainandPortugal:http://www.cordee.co.uk/rockclimbguidesspainportugal.php

    YoucanevenbuyaguidetoBenNevis,ScotlandbyaFrenchauthor!!!!!!ThelateandgreatGodefroyPerroux.

    http://www.cordee.co.uk/CCN027.php

    AlsowerunDestinationarticlesatUKClimbing.com,ifanylocalauthorswouldliketopreviewtherelocalcragsandguidebooks,getintouchwithourdestinationseditor

    Onlyareasthatdon'thaveaccessconcerns,andofcourseno'secret'areas.

    Example,andpleaseupdateifyouseeanythingamiss

    GorgesDuTarn,France

    http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1556

    Cheers,

    MickUKClimbing.com

    MichaelRyan 2009021014:49:43

    YoumaynotethatwehaveincludeddetailsofthelocalGorgeduTarnguidebookinthatparticulararticleatUKClimbing.com

    WheredoIgettheguidebook?

    'LeTarn'bytheClubAlpinFrancais,isavailablefromthe"tabac"inLeRozierandLesVignesandalsofromanumberofthebookshopsinMillau.Itisnowalittleoutofdate(firstpublishedin2000)butnewrouteinformationisavailablefromtheclimbingwallinMillau.

    Mick

    JoakimThommesen

    2009021016:27:54

    AmItheonlyonetoseethatasignificantpartofthis"gettingpaidproblem"iscompletelyfictional?

    Developersofnewroutesdoesnotneedtobefinanciallyrewarded.Everybodyknowsthis.GoodcragsandgoodlineswillbeboltedbyenthusiasticclimbersbecausetheyLOVEDOINGIT.Notbecausetheygetpaid.Anyoneclaimingsomethingelseiseitherlyingorafool.

    Whatyouneedmoneyforisthereboltingofcrags.Period.

  • Forum:GLOBAL /News/Accessproblemsdueexternaltopoproduction Loginintocontribute

    Accessproblemsdueexternaltopoproduction

    www.8a.nu

    2009020600:00:00

    "MarcoTroussier,fromtheFrenchfederationFFME,hasinformed8athat externalguideproductionlikeRockfaxcopyinglocalproductionisathreattolocalaccesswork.FFMEisworkinghardwithaccessissuesbutoftentheexternalproducedtoposdonotincludethelastlocalagreementsandcouldcreateaccessproblemsetc.Theequippersandthelocaltopoproducermakeandupdateaccessagreementswiththelandownerandthelocalcouncilinmanycliffs.Theseguysareoftenupsetwhentheymeetforeignerswithacommercialtopoproducedabroad.InsomecasestoposlikeRockfaxcouldcreatedbiglocalaccessroblems,accordingTroussier.Theclimbingcommunityshouldsupportlocallyproducedtoposandlocalaccessagreementseverywhereintheclimbingworld.Rockfaxisstealinglocalmoneyandcreatingaccessproblems.Moralityagainstprofit,chooseyourcamp!"

    JohanSvensson

    2009020603:42:32

    Thisissoonesided,"moralityagainstprofit,chooseyourcamp",whatisthat...Theremustbeawaytoworktogether.LocalguidesareoftenhardtogetbyandperhapsRockFaxcouldhaveawebadresswheretheypresentupdatesonlocalinfo.Ithinkthatisaresposibilitythatcomeswithproducingguides!

    MattHall 2009020604:41:53

    It'sridiculoustomakethisissuesoblackandwhite.Peopleneedtoeducatethemselvesastolocallanduseagreementsandcustoms.WithconcerntoRockfax"stealinglocalmoney"Ithinktheyhaveeveryrighttocompetefairlywithlocalguidebookauthors.Theyshouldconscienceenoughtoincludeinformationonaccessissuesetc.butasclimbersitisalsoourdutytoinformourselvesandberespectful.

    jghedge 2009020608:02:03

    "WithconcerntoRockfax"stealinglocalmoney"Ithinktheyhaveeveryrighttocompetefairlywithlocalguidebookauthors."

    Thethingyou'renotgettingisthatthey'renotjust"localguidebookauthors". Thepeoplewhospentthetimeandmoneytodevelop(bolt)thecragsarelookingtorecouptheircostsbysellingguidestotheareatheydeveloped.IfRockfaxwantstoprintguidestocrags,thentheycangooutandbolttheirowncrags,andprintguidesforthem.Therearecertainlyplentyofnewareastodevelop.

    Ifafriendofyoursspentthousandsofdollarsandhundredsofhoursdevelopinganewcrag,wouldyoutellhimyouhave"everyrighttocompete"ifyoupublishedaguidetoitagainsthiswishes?Orwouldyoulethimputouttheguidesohecouldgetbacksomeofthemoneyhespentdevelopingit?

    StefanoVarnerin

    2009020609:29:36

    Itotallyagreewithjghedge,we'renottalkingabout2bookauthorsincompetition,butaboutthelocalareadeveloperthatspendtime,energyandalotofMONEYtoboltcliffsthatwecanallclimbeduehishardworkandaboutsomeonewhoonedaycametothecliff,buythelocalguideandsay"nicespot,icancopytheguideandsellitabroad"..........sowhohastheright?

    AlanJames 2009020609:51:44

    OneoftheproblemsmanytravellingclimbershavewhenvisitingcragsinFranceisgettingholdofthelocalinformation.Theguidebookscoververysmallareasandareusuallyonlyavailableinselectedlocations.Theresultofthisisthatclimberseitherjustvisitthemainpopularcrags,ortheyvisitthenewcragswithoutproperinformation,whichcancauseproblemsiftheyparkinthewrongplace,orclimbthereatthewrongtimeofyearwhenthecragisclosedforsomereason.

    ThenewRockfaxguidestoFranceaimtohelptravellingclimbersbybringingtogetherlotsofsmallcrags,togetherwiththemorepopularones,intoafewbooks.Thebooksarebeingcarefullyresearchedsothatwehavegoodaccessinformationtoavoidproblemswithlocallandowners.Formostofthecragswewillnotbeincludingallthesectors,justafew,wewillthenbepointingatlocalguidebookswherepeoplecangetextrainformation.

    Theinformationinthesebooksisnotcopiedfromotherbooksinmanycasesthatisimpossiblebecauseitdoesn'tevenexistinotherguidebooks.Allthephotosandmapsandinformationisbeingresearchedbytheauthor.Ofcoursewedouselocalguidebookfortheroutenames,andwealsousethelocalgrades,althoughwedoassessthoseourselvesaswell.

    Therehasalwaysbeenaquestionaboutlocalclimbersfundingboltingbyse


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