tami simon- stanislav grof: learning from non‐ordinary states interviewed

8/3/2019 Tami Simon- Stanislav Grof: Learning from NonOrdinary States Interviewed

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SOUNDSTRUE:INSIGHTSATTHEEDGE

StanislavGrof:LearningfromNonOrdinaryStates

InterviewedbyTamiSimon Tuesday,August24,2010

Audio http://www.soundstrue.com/podcast/?p=1977

TamiSimon:Idlovetobegin,Stan,bygivingourlistenersabitofbackgroundand

aframeworkforyourworkandyourteaching.Iwonderifyoucanjusttellusa

littlebitaboutyourearlywork,andspecificallyhowyoubecamesointerestedin

nonordinarystatesofconsciousness.

StanleyGrof:MyoriginalinterestinpsychiatrycamefromreadingFreud.Justat

thetimewhenIwasactuallycommittingtoacompletelydifferentprofessionI

wantedtoworkinanimatedmoviesafriendofminegavemeIntroductory

Lecturesin

Psychoanalysis.

Istarted

reading

it

in

the

evening

and

couldnt

stop.

I

readthroughthenight,andwithinafewdaysIdecided,ThisiswhatIwantto

be.Iwanttobeapsychoanalyst.SoIenrolledinthemedicalschoolinstead,and

then,asIwasgettingdeeperinvolvedwithFreudiananalysis,Ibecame

increasinglydisappointedwithit.Initially,itwasnotthetheory,itwasmorethe

practicalinefficacyyouknow,thatittakesyears,andevenafteryears,the

resultsdontseemtobebreathtaking.AndsoIwasinastate,kindofacrisis

whereIstartedregrettingthatIdchosenpsychiatryandpsychoanalysis,and

startedkindofnostalgicallythinkingbacktoanimatedmovies.

Justatthattime,wegotasupplyofLSDfromSandoswithalettersayingthatthis

wasaveryinterestingnewinvestigationalsubstancewhosepsychoactiveeffects

werediscoveredbyDr.Hoffman(Heaccidentallyintoxicatedhimself.)andit

describedapilotstudythatDr.StahldidwiththesonofDr.Hoffmansbossin

Zurichwithagroupofpsychiatricpatientsandagroupofnormalvolunteers.

Theysaidtheyfeltthatthiswouldbesomethinginterestingforpsychiatristsand

psychologists,andwouldwewanttodosomeexperimentsandletthemknowif

therewasalegitimateuseforit?Theygaveacoupleoftips:Onewasthatthey

feltthat

maybe

this

could

be

used

as

akind

of

model

psychosis,

or

experimental

psychosis,wherewecouldgiveittonormalpeople,doallkindsoftestsbefore,

during,andafter,andgetsomeinsightsintowhatmightbehappeninginpeople

whohavespontaneousepisodesofthesenonordinarystates.Thentherewasa

secondtip,whichkindofbecamemydestinyorkarma,whateveryouwanttocall

it.Theysuggestedthatmaybethiscouldbeusedasakindofunconventional

trainingtoolforpsychiatristsorpsychologiststhatthiswouldgiveusachanceto


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spendafewhoursintheworldthatseemstobesimilartotheworldwhereour

patientslive.

Youknow,Iwasexperiencingthisrealdisappointmentwithpsychiatry,andthis

lookedlikeanexcitingnewpossibility,soIbecameoneoftheearlyvolunteers.I

hadapowerful,powerfultransformingexperiencethatcreatedakindofa

lifetimeinterest

in

non

ordinary

states,

where

it

became

my

passion,

profession,

vocation.

TS:Canyougiveusanidea:Howmanyjourneysdidyougoonwhereyouwere

accompanyingpeopleaspartofyourresearch?

SG:Well,Ivedone,overhalfacentury,over4,000sessionswithothers.Iwasalso

experimenting,myself,withallofthesubstancesthatwewereusingwithour

patientsandclients.

TS:AndIknowthisisabigquestion,butcouldyousaythattherewerecertain

themes,orthemostimportantinsightsthatyoureceivedfromthese4,000

sessions,plusyourown?Likethetoplevelhighlightsthathaveinformedyour

work?

SG:Well,IthinkthemajorthingthathappenedwasIwascomingintothis

experimentationwithacompletelyatheisticbackground.Youknow,myparents

metinasmallCzechtown,andwhentheywantedtogetmarried,therewasa

problem

because

my

fathers

family

didnt

have

any

church

affiliation,

and

my

mothersfamilywasstrictlyCatholic,andthelocalchurchrefusedtomarrythem

untiltheygotamajorfinancialcontributionfrommygrandparents,frommy

mothersside.Andsomyparentsgotsodisenchantedwithanythingrelatedto

religionthattheydidntcommitmeormybrothertoanyreligion.Theysaidthat

youshouldbasicallymakeyourchoicewhenyoucomeofage,andso,fromthis

kindofatheisticbackground,Iwenttomedicalschoolatthetimewhenwehada

Marxistregime,sothiswasnotsomethingthatwascultivatingspiritual

awareness.Sothemajorthingthathappenedformewastoopenmetoa

mysticalworldview,

to

spirituality,

which

is

certainly

something

that

Ihad

not

expected.

Andthenthereweremany,many(ofcourse)specificinsights.Thefirstonewas

thatthesessionswouldnttakeusbythat,Imeanmyselfandmyclientsjustto

thepartofthepsychedescribedinpsychoanalysis,whichisbasicallypostnatal

biographyandtheFreudianindividualunconscious.Butsoonerorlater,the

sessionsstartedtakingusintoarealmthatInowcallperinatal.Thiswasamajor


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discovery,thattherewasapowerfulrecord,apowerfulimprintinthepsyche,of

thewholebirthprocess,withalltheemotions,withallthephysicalfeelings,and

thatislikeareservoirofdifficultemotionsthatplaysaveryimportantroleinthe

developmentofdifferentkindsofemotionalandpsychosomaticdisorders,and

thengoingbackthereandrelivingthat,andprocessingthoseemotionsand

relievingthoseenergiesisamajor,majortherapeuticmechanism.

Ihadtostrugglewiththis,becauseinmymedicaltraining,therewasnowayyou

couldrelivebirth.Theideawasthatthecerebralcortexofthenewbornisnot

finished,isnotmyelinized(asitiscalled),andthattherecannotbeanymemory,

thatthenewbornisunconsciousandtheexperienceisnotrecordedanywhere.

Andsothistookmeawhiletoadjusttoandrealizethatsomehowcurrent

psychiatryandbrainresearchhaditwrong.

ButevenbeforeIgotfamiliarandcomfortablewiththisperinatallevel,itstarted

openinginto

anew

realm

which

we

now

call

transpersonal,

which

means

that

therewereexperiencesofgoingbackintopreviouscenturiesandothercountries,

sometimeswithasenseofpersonalremembering,andthenwewereintherealm

ofreincarnation,karma.Peoplewerehavingexperiencesthattheybelievedtobe

memoriesfrompreviouslifetimes.Icanfindtheconnectiontothepresent

lifetimeandhealing,inthisprocess,ofmanyemotionalandpsychosomatic

problems.

Thentheotherthingthathappened:Theexperiencesmovedfromhuman

consciousnessinto

the

animal

realm,

and

there

were

very,

very

authentic

identificationswithvariousotherlivingorganisms,lifeforms,fromprimatesall

thewaydowntounicellularorganisms.Again,thiswasamajor,major(asyoucan

imagine)shockingdiscovery.Theexperiencessometimeswentintothebotanical

realm!Irememberexperiencingaveryconvincingidentificationwithasequoia

tree,forexample,orinoneofmysessions,Ibecameacarnivorousplant,

digestingaflywithexperiencesthatIcouldntconjureupinmyeveryday

consciousness.ItcertainlywasntcomingupfromsomethingIhadreador

experiencedinthemoviesandsoon.

Andthenyetanothermajor,majorexperienceorexperientialrealmwasthe

Jungianarchetypalunconsciousyouknow,comingintotherealmof

mythologicalbeings,deities,demonicpresences,kindofabodesofthebeyond

paradises,hells,heavens,andsoonandfinally,experiencesofonenesswiththe

divine,orexperiencesofthesuprequasmitmetacosmicvoid,thekindof

experiencesthatyouneverheardinpsychologyorpsychiatry,exceptmaybein

somepathologicalcontexts,assomethingthatpsychoticpatientsexperience,but


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experiencesthatweredescribedindetailinwhatisactuallycalledperennial

philosophy,youknow,thedifferentEasternphilosophiesandmysticalsystemsof

theworld.

Itwouldbedifficulttopindownoneparticularexperience,butcertainlythe

transformationfromanatheisttosomebodywhoismorelikeamystic,andthen

thisdiscovery

of

the

vastness

of

the

psyche,

those

were

the

major

surprises

for

me.

TS:Well,Imean,Stan,listeningtoyou,itssohugewhatyourereporting!Justto

helpmeintermsofmyownhistoryandknowledgeofthedevelopmentof

psychiatryintheWest:Whenyoustarted,weretheperinatalandtranspersonal

dimensionsjustnotconsideredpartofthedialogue?

SG:Itcertainlywasnotpartofthedialogueintraditionalacademicpsychiatryand

psychology,but

these

kinds

of

ideas

appeared

in

the

very

stormy

and

kind

of

complexhistoryofpsychoanalysis.Freudsurroundedhimselfwithverytalented

people.Manyofthemdevelopedvariationsofpsychoanalysisthatwentbeyond

Freud.Therewas,forexampleOttoRank,whowasouttellingFreud,workedona

bookcalledTheTraumaofBirth,gaveittoFreudforhisbirthday,creatingan

emotionalshockinFreudthat,accordingtoAgnesJones,thebiographer,ittook

Freudfourmonthstorecoverfrom.Sothatwassomethingthatemergedin

psychoanalysis,butwasnot,certainly,embracedbythewholepsychology

community,onlybyafractionofanalysts.Also,Ranksideaaboutbirthwasalittle

differentfrom

what

emerged

with

psychedelic

research

or

the

holotropic

breathworkthatwearedoingnow.Then,ofcourse,therewasCarlGustavJung,

whocameupwiththeideathatwedonthavejusttheindividualunconscious,

butwehaveacollectiveunconsciouswheretheentirehistoryofhumanityis

recorded,andalsotheculturalhistory,theculturalinheritance,experiencesof

differentcultures,evenculturesthatwehavenotstudiedorthewedonthave

anyintellectualknowledgeof.

Therewas,ofcourse,anotherrenegade,andthatwasWilhelmReich,who

pointedout

that

what

we

are

dealing

with

in

emotional

psychosomatic

disorders

arenotjustmemoriesoftraumaticsituationsofvariouskinds,butthatwecarry

very,verypowerfulblockages,whathecalledcharacterarmor,thathesawas

kindofjammedsexualenergyduetothefactthatwe,ashumansinmodernity,

donthavefreeandfullsexuallives.Soagain,thisissomethingthatemergedin

psychedelicwork,theawarenessofhowmanypentupbioenergieswecarryin

ourbody.


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TS:Nowyoumentionedsomethingveryinterestingtomewhenyouweretalking

abouthowtraditionalpsychiatryviewedmemoriesfromthebirthexperience:

thatwedonthavethementalcapacity,Iguessyousaid,becauseofcertain

myelinthatsformedinourbrain,tohavethesememories,andthatthiscauseda

conundrumforyou,howyoucouldunderstandwhatyouwereexperiencing,both

inyourselfandthroughthepsychedelicresearch,andthenlaterandwelltalk

aboutthisinabitthetherapyyoudeveloped,holotropicbreathworktherapy,

wherepeoplearerelivingthesebirthmemories.Howdoyouexplainouraccessto

birthmemoriesandnonordinarystates,giventhatscientificperspectiveabout

howthebrainforms?

ST:Well,youknow,theresnoprobleminthisregard,withperinatalexperiences,

becausethereisabrain,thereisahighlydevelopedpartofthenervoussystemin

thenewborn,anditsactuallyquitesurprisingandshockingthattraditionally

psychiatristsdontseeit,becauseweknowthatyoudontneedacortextohave

memories.There

are

organisms

without

acortex,

without

abrain,

that

have

memories.Memoryisafunctionoflivingmatter.Anumberofyearsago,Eric

KandelgotaNobelPrizeforstudyingmemorymechanismsinaseaslug,called

aplysia.Soaseaslughasmemory,butanewborncannotrememberhoursofa

potentiallylifethreateningsituation.

Thentheotherparadoxhereisthatthewholepsychiatriccommunityagreesthat

theexperiencesimmediatelyfollowingbirthwhichisnursing,whichisthe

exchangebetweenthenewbornandthemotherisallimportant.Even

pediatriciansand

obstetricians

talk

about

bonding,

the

exchange

of

looks

betweenthemotherandthechildthatcaninfluencethewholefuture

relationship.Andwehavenowextensivefetalresearchshowingthesensitivityof

thefetusalreadyinthewomb.Forexample,ifyoureplayingVivalditopregnant

mothers,andthenyouplayitagaininthenursery,thechildrenwouldbemore

relaxed,theywouldsleepbetter,theywouldgainmoreweight,andsoon.There

areotherindicationsofthesensitivityofthefetus.

TheonlywayIcanunderstandthisamazing,amazinglogicalgapthatyouseehere

isthat

its

apsychological

repression,

that

the

experienced

memory

is

so

frighteningthatweuseourintellecttoexplainitaway.Youknow,Thesethings

wouldnthavebeenimportantbecausemycortexwasntmyelinized.Theidea

thatadisciplinethatissoproudofitslogic,itsrigidlogical,scientificthinking,can

comeupwiththatkindofinconsistencybyattributingtheabilityofveryrefined

memorytothenursingnewborn,butatthesametimebelievesthatthereisno

wayofrecordingsomethingthatcouldbe15,30,50hours(severaldays)ofalife

threateningsituation,isjusthardtobelieve.


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Nowyougetintomuchmoreproblemswhenyougofurtherbecauseyoucan

rememberearlyembryonicdevelopment.Youcancertainlyexperience

conceptiononacellularlevelofawareness,andyoucangobeyondandhave

ancestralmemoriesandexperiencesfromthecollectiveunconscious,whereit

becomesincreasinglydifficulttofindanymaterialsubstrate.Sowehavenowa

conceptofmemorywithoutamaterialsubstrate.Someofthethingsthatwould

fitherewouldbe,forexample,RupertSheldrakesideaofthemorphogenetic

fields.TheotheronewouldbetheconceptofsocalledpsifieldorAkashicfield

thatErvinLszldescribed,wherehescientificallyformulatedtheconceptofa

subquantumfieldwhereeverythingthathaseverhappenedintheuniverse

remainsholographicallyrecorded,andbecomesavailabletoallofusunder

certainspecialcircumstances.Soourconsciousnessresearchisnowbeyondthe

ideathatmemoryhastohavesomekindofamaterialsubstrate,whetheritsthe

brainoreventheDNA.

TS:Well

lets

talk

about

that

amoment,

because

it

seems

like

thats

apretty

controversialpoint:consciousnesswithoutamaterialsubstrate.

SG:Oh,itsdefinitelycontroversialintermsofcurrentacademiccircles,butwe

have,forexample,anenormousnumberofobservationsfromthanatology

showingthatconsciousnesscanoperateindependentlyofthebrain.Youknow,

peoplewhohaveaneardeathexperiencenotjusttheirheartstops,buttheir

brainwavesareflat,soitsacardiacdeathandabraindeathwhentheyare

beingresuscitated,theconsciousnessoperatesoutsideofthebodywithcomplete

sensoryaccess

to

the

environment,

not

just

in

the

room

where

it

is

happening,

butitcantraveltootherpartsofthebuilding,canexperiencesomething

hundredsorthousandsofmilesaway,andifthereisanopenmindedresearcher

whogoesandchecksthesethings,hefindsoutthatthesethingsarehappening,

thattheycanbeconsensuallyvalidated.KenrickandBellerino,forexample,show

thatthiscanhappentopeoplewhoarecongenitallyblindwho,fororganic

reasons,haveneverseenanythingbeforeintheirlivesiftheyareinanear

deathsituation,theycansee,andwhattheyseecanbeconsensuallyvalidated.

Theytalkaboutveriticaloutofbodyexperiences.

Soyouknowwehavevariousobservationsshowingthatconsciousnessisnota

productofthebrain.Consciousnesscanreallyoperateindependently.

TS:Thisissuchanimportantpointtoemphasize.Whatdoesthistellyouabout

whatyouthink,imagine,supposewillhappenwhenyoudie?


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SG:Wecandoalittlemorethanfantasizeaboutit,becausewehavethese

reportsofpeoplewhocamequiteclosetodeath.Wedonthavereportsfrom

peoplewhoactuallydied,completedtheprocess.(TherearereportsfromTibetan

literature,andsoon.)ButIhavehad,inmypsychedelicsessions,repeated

experienceswhereIbelievedthatIhadalreadydied,thatIwasintherealm,the

postmortemrealm,thebardorealm,andIhaveseenmany,manyotherpeople

describethat.Wehadpatientswhoweredyingofcancer,weweredoing

psychedelicresearchwiththem,andwehadinstanceswheretheyhadthe

experiencesofdeathandrebirth,havingasenseoftranscendingdeath,andthen,

ascancercontinued,theyactuallyhadarealneardeathexperience.Oneofmy

patients,whoisdescribedinthebookWhentheImpossibleHappens,hisureter

wasobstructedbythemetastasis,andtheyoperatedonhim,andhehadcardiac

arrest.Whenhecameback,hetoldus,ImgladthatIhadthesesessionswith

you,becausetheterritorywasnotnewtome.Hewascomparing,actually,his

experiencesfrompsychedelicsessionswiththerealneardeathexperience.

Sowehavemanyindicationssuggestingthatwhatsgoingtobehappeningatthe

timeofdeathisgoingtobequitesimilartowhatwehaveexperiencedin

psychedelicsessions,butofcourse,wellneverknowforsure.Wellgetthefinal

answerwhenwellbeactuallydying.

TS:Justtomakesureeveryonestrackingwithus:Whenyoutalkabout

consciousnesswithoutasubstrate,whatyoumeanbyasubstrateissomekindof

materialreceiver?

SG:Yeah.Somethingthatsmaterial,likethebrainortheDNA.Itwouldbemore

ofsomethinglikeafield.RupertSheldrakeusedtotalkaboutamorphogenetic

field,orErvinLszlistalkingabouttheAkashicfieldorthePSIfield,whichwould

beasubquantumfieldwhereeverythingthathaseverhappenedwouldbe

recorded.Ormaybethefieldofconsciousnesscanretaininformation,thefieldof

consciousnessitself.Wedliketomoveawayfromtheideathatconsciousnessis

actuallyproducedbythebrain.Wehavemany,manyindicationsthatthatsnot

thecase.Whatwehaveisanenormousnumberofobservationsshowingthat

thereare

systematic

correlations

between

the

anatomy,

physiology,

biochemistry

ofthebrainandstatesofconsciousness,butwehaveabsolutelynoproofthatthe

braingeneratesconsciousness.Thisis,again,anotherkindoflogicaljumpthathas

happenedintheacademicthinking.

Youknow,itwouldbetantamounttosayingthatbecausethereisasystematic

relationshipbetweenthecomponentsinthetelevisionsets,theirfunctioning,and

thequalityofthepictureandthesoundthatyouget,itsaproofthattheprogram


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isgeneratedinthebox.This,ofcourse,leavesthepossibilitythatthetelevision

setmediatestheprogram,butdoesntgenerateit,inthesamewaythatthebrain

mediatesconsciousness,butdoesntreallycreateit.

TS:Soisthatyourunderstandingoftherelationshipbetweenconsciousnessand

thebrain,thatthebrainisamediator?

SG:Well,whatIbelieveisthatwehavealotofevidencethatconsciousnessisnot

producedbythebrain.Itseasierformenowtoimagine,thewaytheHindusdo,

thatwhatweareexperiencingasthematerialworldisreallyvirtualreality.You

know,theytalkaboutmaya,theytalkaboutlila,theytalkaboutthedivineplay.I

canimagineconsciousnessgeneratingtheexperienceofthematerialworld,

ratherthanbeingabletobelievethatsomethinglikematterwhich,inour

understanding,isinert,sortofblind,reactivecangeneratesomethinglike

consciousness.Imeanthegapissophenomenalthatitshardtoimagine.And

nobodyhas

ever

tried

to

explain

how

possibly

matter

could

create

consciousness.

Itsthebasicmetaphysicalassumption,whichsortofreflectsthisbeliefthatthe

worldismaterial,andthereforeconsciousnesshastobederivative,butthereis

thisotherextremethattheHindushave,thatallwearedealingwithisvirtual

reality,thatworldscanbecreatedbyorchestrationofexperiences,andthose

peoplewhohavehadpsychedelicexperiencesorevenspontaneous

experiences,orexperiencesinholotropicbreathworktheyknowthat

consciousnesscancreateworlds.Very,verybelievableones.Occasionallyeven

morebelievablethanthisone.Thereis,ofcourse,alsothepossibilityofthe

parallelism,that

both

consciousness

and

matter

are

real,

and

that

they

are

sort

of

relatedinaveryinterestingway.

Philosophically,ofallthreeofthosearepossibilities:theworldismaterialand

mattergeneratesconsciousness,orthenatureoftheuniverseisabsolute

consciousnessthathasthecapacityofcreatingworldsbyorchestrating

experiences,andthentheparallelexistenceofmatterandconsciousness.

TS:Well,itsclearthatyoudontthinkthefirstoptionisthewaythingsare,but

betweenthe

second

and

the

third,

are

you

clear

what

your

view

is?

SG:IthinkIwouldsidewiththeEasternphilosophies.Youknow,ifIamtotakeall

oftheexperiencesthatIvehadovertheyears,andeverythingIhaveseenin

termsoftheseexperiencesandthingshappeningaroundthem,likeamazing

synchronicitiesandsoon,Iwouldcertainlybemoreinclinedtogivepriorityto

consciousness.


9/17

Youknow,Iread,yearsago,abookthatIsawinthebookstore.ItwasFrancis

Crick,calledTheAstonishingHypothesis.FrancisCrickwasthecodiscovererofthe

DNAstructure.ItwascalledTheAstonishingHypothesis:ANobelPrizeWinning

ScientistExplainsConsciousness.Isaid,ThisisabookIhavetoread.SoIbought

thebook,andIstartedreadingit.Itbeganwithastatement,youknow,Allyour

joys,allyoursorrows,allyourideas,allyourvisions:Itsnothingelsebuttheplay

oftheactivityoftheneuronsinyourbrain,wastheastonishinghypothesis.Then

Cricksays,Well,letssimplifyit.Letslookatwhathappenswhenyouobserve

something.Thenhesays,Whenyoulookatsomething,lightisreflectedfromit.

Itcreateselectricchanges,chemicalchangesinyourretinathatcreatesa

neuronalimpulse,moreelectricchanges,morebiochemicalchanges,andthen

finally,thisimpulseendsupinthesuboccipitalcortexagain,electricpotentials

andbiochemicalchanges...andhegivespagesandpagesofexperiments

provingthatthisisthecase,thenheleavesitinthesuboccipitalcortex,aselectric

potentialsandbiochemicalchanges,asifthatexplainedtheproblem.

Thatsactuallywheretheproblembegins.Whatisitthatcancreate,outofthese

biochemicalandelectricchanges,areasonablefacsimileofwhatsoutthere,in

colors,andsortofprojectitintothreedimensionalspace?Thatsanextremely

profoundphilosophicalproblemthatImmanuelKantpointedto:Howdoweknow

thatwhatisthereisreallycorrectlyreflectedinourbrain?Weonlyknowhowthe

worldappearstous,butnotwhatthingsreallyare.Theresnowayofgetting

beyondthatkindofaproblem.

Sothe

Hindus

have

awhole

other

idea:

that

you

see

exactly

what

youre

supposedtosee,butthethingsthatyouseearenotthereinthewayyou

perceivedthem.Inthesamewayasinthemoviesyousee?youseeexactly

whatyouareexpectedtosee,butthosethingsarenotwhatyouperceivethemas

being.Thehorses,thetrees,thepeople...itsjusttheplayofenergythatyou

interpretinacertainway.

TS:NowStan,asweretalkingtoday,youreinyour80s,andyoumentionedthat

itwassomeoftheexperiencesinyourpersonallife,someofthethingsthatwere

reallymind

bending,

mind

expanding,

mind

melting,

whatever

word

you

want

to

use,thatconvincedyouoftheprimacyofconsciousness.Imwonderingifyoucan

shareoneortwoexamplesofeventsthatreallyshiftedyouyourexperiencewas

justundeniable,anditcreatedsomekindofshiftinyou.

SG:Again,Idontthinkitwasoneortwoorthreeexperiences.Itsmorethe

numberofthosethingsthathappened.Severalofthem,inthebook,again,When

theImpossibleHappens,forexample,inamotelneartheAyersRock,uluru,you


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know,thecosmicmountainoftheaboriginesinthemiddleoftheAustralian

desert,andnotreallyknowingtheaboriginalmythology,thatexperiencetookme

intothisrealmofwhattheycalldreaming,encounteringthemythicfiguresof

theaboriginalmythology,andgoingthroughaprocessofbeingbornbytheGreat

MotherKangaroo,andsoon.Then,thenextday,weboughtalittlebookletinthe

motel,andtookacaranddrovearoundthemountain,andtherewere

descriptionsofmanyofthethingsthatIhadexperiencedthenightbefore.My

innerexperienceswerevalidatedbythisguidebookwewerereading.Thatwas

justoneofmany,manyexperiences,someamazingsynchronicitieshappening

aroundthesestates.

Thephenomenonofsynchronicityissomethingthatwasamajorturningpointin

CarlGustavJungswork,also,becauseheinitiallysawthearchetypesasbeing

sortofhardwiredinthebrain,andwhenhediscoveredsynchronicity,thefact

thatwhatappearstobethematerial,orwhatwecallobjectivereality,canenter

intothis

kind

of

aplayful

interaction

with

our

psyche.

We

can

have

adream

or

a

vision,andthenthematerialrealitypresentsitin3D.Itsquite,quiteremarkable.

Ihave,inthebook,thisstorythatJosephCampbelltells:Whenhewaswritingthe

firstvolumeofwhatwassupposedtobeasixvolumeencyclopediaofmythology,

hewaslivingatthetimeonthefourteenthfloorofahighrisebuildingoflower

Manhattan,andinhisstudy,thereweretwosetsofwindows:oneoverlooking

SixthAvenue(notveryinteresting),andtheotheroverlookingtheHudsonRiver(a

verybeautifulview).Thesetwowindowswerealwaysopen,andtheothertwo

windowswere

opened

very

rarely

for

cleaning.

He

was

working

on

the

Kalahari

bushmenmythologywheretheheroicfigureistheprayingmantis,sohewas

surroundedbythesepicturesandthesearticlesandtheLaurensvanderPost

biography,wherehetalksabouthisbushmannannyinteractingwiththepraying

mantis,andsuddenlyhehadthisirresistibleimpulsetogetupandopenoneof

thesewindowsthathehadneverregularlyopened.Helookedoutand

automaticallyturnedhisheadtotheside,andthere,onthefourteenthfloorof

thishighrisebuilding,wasabigspecimenofprayingmantis.Itclimbedupand

turnedhis/herheadtowardshimandgavehimalook,thenjustcontinuedto

climbup

the

building.

Yousee?Thosekindsofthingsarequite,quiteremarkable.Theprobabilitythat

somethinglikethishappensinchanceisreally...ortheimprobabilityisreally

astronomical.Besidestheexperiencesthataremorelikeinthecategoryofthe

uluruexperience,Ihadalsolotsofthesesynchronisticconnectionswithmy

experiences.


11/17

TS:IthinkthatlotsofpeopleandIimaginelotsofpeoplelisteninghavehad

experiencesofsynchronicitythatarejustremarkable,andasyousay,just

completelyimplausible,butyet,Wow!Thishappened!Thequestion,then,is:

Howdoweinterprettheseandmakemeaningfulsenseofwhatsactually

happeninginourlivesfromtheseexperiencesofsynchronicity?Canyouhelpus

there?Whatdoessynchronicitypointto,inyourview?

SG:Well,firstofall,theypointtothefactthattheuniverseissomething

completelydifferentfromwhatisdescribedinmonastic,materialisticscience.It

bringsthiskindofideaoftheuniversethatisorganic,thatisinterconnected,that

itsalive,thatitspermeatedbysuperiorintelligence,thateventsintheuniverse

areorchestratedinanintelligentway.Theydontjusthappen.Itsaradical

changeinourunderstandingofthenatureofreality,fromthetypicalWestern

viewthatwehaveinindustrialsocieties,whereitsasimplymaterialworldin

whichonlyhumansarereallyfullyconscious,toauniversethatscreatedby

superiorintelligence

and

that

has

akind

of

amaster

blueprint

behind

it.

RickTarnasbroughtawholeotherperspectiveonthisby30yearsofstudying

historyandshowingthecorrelationsbetweeneventsintheworldandplanetary

transits.Itshowsanimageoftheuniverseinwhichwhatishappeninghere,on

themateriallevel,isformedandinformedbyhappeningsonthearchetypallevel,

whichisnormallyinvisible.Theinteractiononthearchetypallevelis

systematicallycorrelatedwiththeplanetarymovementsandtheangular

relationshipsthattheplanetsaremaking,soyoucaninfer,fromthesituationin

theworld

of

the

stars,

what

is

happening

in

the

archetypal

world,

and

what

kind

ofenergiesyouwouldexpecthere.SoRickwrotethisbookcalledCosmosand

Psyche.Ifyoureadthat,itsquite,quiteamazing.Thereyoudonthavejustasort

ofindividual,isolatedsynchronicities,butshowingasynchronisticinterconnection

ofallofreality,thatyoucantakepartofit,whichisthemovementsofthe

planets,andyoucaninferwhatwouldbehappeningintheotherrealms.Its

importanttosaythat,inthiskindofunderstanding,thestarsdontcause

anything.Theyjustindicatewhatishappeninginthewayinwhichourclockdoes

notcreatetime,butitsjustshowingwhattimeitis.

TS:Nowwestartedourconversation,Stan,talkingaboutyourresearchwith

peopleundergoingLSDexperiences,andyouvementionedthatyouve

developedamethod,holotropicbreathwork,whichisonethatallowspeopleto

accesstheseexpandedstatesofconsciousnesswithoutdrugsorLSDoringesting

anything.Justtotalkalittlebitaboutthat:Whatsyourunderstandingofwhat

LSDdoestoourcapacitytohaveexperience?Andthenisthatreallysomething

thatcanbemimickedinanondrugapproach?


12/17

SG:Well,youknow,allthoseyearsworkingwithLSD,Iknewthatwhatwewere

experiencingwerenotreallyLSDexperiences,thatLSDwaslikeapowerful

catalystthatmakesavailablethecontentsfromreallydeeplevelsofthepsyche

thatarenormallynotavailabletoexploration.Isawitassortoflikeatelescopeor

amicroscope:Youknowthemicroscopedoesntcreatethemicroworld.Itjust

makesitavailableforobservation.Thetelescopedoesntcreatenewgalaxies.We

presumetheyarethere,andwewouldntseethemwithoutthetelescope.Yet

therewasalwaysthisfeeling:Therewasthisincrediblypowerfulsubstance.

Maybethatsomehowparticipatesinit.

AndsoitwasamazingwhenChristinaandIwereinEssalen,attheEssalen

InstituteinBigSur,wherewedidnothavepermissiontousepsychedelics,and

wedevelopedthismethodofholotropicbreathworkwhereyoujustusefaster

breathing,powerfulevocativemusic,andacertainkindofbodywork,thatwe

sawessentiallythesamespectrumofexperiencesthatweusedtoseein

psychedelicsessions:Peoplewererelivingthingsfrominfancy,childhood,reliving

birth,goingtoprenatalstates,identifyingwithanimals,plants,goingintothe

realmofarchetypalbeings,havingpastlifeexperiences,havingexperiencesof

onenesswithGod,oronenessofnature,oronenesswiththeuniverse,andsoon.

Andthen,whenwesawthattheseexperiencescanbeusefulandhealingand

transformative,whetherinuseofpsychedelicsorthebreathwork,westarted

applyingthesamestrategytoexperiencesthatpeoplehadspontaneously,and

realizedthattherewasasignificantsubgroupofstateswhicharecurrently

diagnosedaspsychoticwhichmeansmanifestationsofmentaldiseasethatare

actuallycrisesofspiritualopening,wherethepsycheopensonadeeplevelinaspontaneousway,forunknownreasons.Ifwedonotsuppressitthewayits

routinelydone,butweencouragepeopletogointotheexperienceandwework

them,itturnsouttobeequallytransformativeandhealingandevenevolutionary

tothoseexperiencesthatareinducedbybreathworkorpsychedelicsubstances.

Youcanusethesameextendedcartographyforallthosethreesituations.

Ithinkitsimportanttosaythatwearenotstudyingpsychedelicsubstances,or

somethingfastbreathinginduces.Wearestudyingthepsyche,perse,always,the

psychethats

infinitely

larger

than

the

academic

psychology

and

psychiatry

would

describeit.

TS:Imcurious,becausethisissomethingIveneverstudiedorunderstood,but

whatdoesapsychedelicsubstancedothatopensustowhatsnaturallythere?

Andthenhowisthatpossiblymimickedbybreathworkandmusic?


13/17

SG:Therearetheories.Theresnounanimity.Theresnoagreement,exactly,

aboutthebiochemicalmechanismthatishappening,butwhatyoucansay,ina

verygeneralsense,isthatitchangestherelationshipbetweenconsciousnessand

theunconscious.Normally,wecarrymaterialsinourunconscious,ondifferent

levels,whichhaveaverystrongemotionalcharge,andtheyhaveatendencyto

emergeintoconsciousness.Thenthereisasystem,whichwecallthe

psychologicaldefenses,thatskindofholdingitdown.Oneoftheimportant

discoveriesofFreudwasaboutthisdynamicbetweentheunconsciouspsycheand

theconsciouspsyche.Hedescribedhowtheunconsciousbreaksthrough,notjust

insymptomsofpsychoneurosis,butforexampleinslipsofthetongue,orin

jokes,andsoon,andthenalsointheformofdreams,whenthepsychological

defensesgodownthecensor,asFreudcallsit,goesdownthenthe

unconsciousismoreavailable.Sopsychedelicsandthebreathingdosomething

similar,onlyinamuchmorepowerfulwaythananordinarydreamwoulddo,

unlesstherearesomereallypowerful,nightmaretypeofdreams.

Wecarrythesecontentsinourpsychethathavestrongemotionalchargesome

ofthemverypainful,fromtraumaticexperiences,someofthemthatarevery

joyful.Forexample,aroundbirth,youfindaprenatalexperiencethat,ifitwasa

goodwomb,wouldbeaveryecstaticexperience.Thepostnatalexperience,

again,iftherewasgoodmotheringavailable,wouldbeveryecstatic,butthe

actualpassagethroughthebirthcanalwouldbeverypainful.Ifthesememories

arestronglyemotionallycharged,ifyouchangetherelationshipbetween

consciousnessandtheunconscious,thenthisunconsciousmaterialwouldsurface

andbecomeavailableforprocessing.

TS:Itseemsthatoneoftherisksatleastthiswouldbemyviewina

psychedelicapproachisthatsomeonecouldbeoverwhelmedbywhattheir

defenseshavebeenkeepingatbay.Doyoufindthatwithholotropicbreathwork,

ordoesitseemthat,inholotropicbreathwork,thepersonisalittlebitmorein

chargeofhowmuchmaterialfromtheirunconsciousisreleased?Andmaybeyou

donteventhinkthatthisriskofoverwhelmfrompsychedelicsisarisk.Im

curious.

SG:Youknow,muchdependsnotjustthemethodthatyoureusing,butonwhat

wecallsetandsetting.Forexample,theratiobetweenriskandbenefitin

psychedelicsessionsiscriticallydeterminedbywhodoesit,forwhatpurposes,in

whatkindofcircumstancesphysicalandhumancircumstances.Itmakesabig

differencewhatthesetandthesettingis,andyouhaveanextremelybroadrange

thereinwhichpsychedelicshavebeenused,fromthetherapeuticsituations

wheretheyhavebeenusedforartisticpurposesorforscientificinsight,allthe


14/17

waytoattemptstouseitasachemicalweaponorasamethodofdiscrediting

foreigndiplomatsormilitaryleaders.Evenunderthebestofcircumstances,itwill

notbeabsolutelysafe.Asignificantfactor,also,isthepersonalityoftheperson

whotakesit.Somepeoplearesoclosetobreakdownthatitcouldhappen

tomorroworaweekfromnowspontaneously.Thepsychedelicscanbejustthe

laststraw,andifitsunderverybadcircumstances,thenitcouldreallyleadtoa

breakdown.Theworstthingisif,inthesituationnow,peoplegettranquilizersin

themiddleofabadtrip.Thatsortoffreezesitinthebadplace,andthenthe

persongetsmaintenancedosagestomakesurethatthegestaltwillnever

completeitself.Thoseareallfactorsthatcontributetothefactthatpeoplecanbe

damagedbypsychedelics.

Now,inthebreathwork,youstartinasafesituation.Everybodyhasapartner.We

workindiets,andthenwehavetrainedfacilitatorsforabouteightor10people,

usuallymyselfandseniorstaffmembersarethereforthewholegroup.People

areasked

to

do

the

whole

thing

with

their

eyes

closed,

which

already

makes

it

safer,becauseyourealreadyfullyawareofwhatiscomingup,andyouhavethe

bestopportunitytoworkwithit.Ifpeopletakeitwalkingaroundorinarave,you

know,inanopensituationwheretheydontreallypayanyattention,their

psychologicaldefensesgodown,buttheydontpayattentiontothematerial

thatscomingupthosearesituationsthatarevery,veryconducivetobad

results.Butinthebreathwork,westartandendinacompletelyintrojectedkind

ofsituationwherepeoplehavetheireyesclosedandevenhaveeyeshades,

wherethereisaverycomplexhumansupportsystem.Ifsomethinggetsbad

results,wehaveacertainkindofbodyworkandemotionalworkthatcanhelptheintegration.

TS:Iknowyouvenowjustpublishedanewbookonholotropicbreathworkwith

SUNYPress,HolotropicBreathwork:ANewApproachtoSelfExplorationand

Therapy.Imcuriouswhatyourvisionisforholotropicbreathworkintheworld

overthenextdecadeortwo.Whatwouldyoulovetoseehappen?

SG:Well,wefeelthatitsaverypowerfulwayofselfexplorationandtherapythat

hasamuch

better

chance

to

influence,

somehow,

whats

happening

in

the

culture

thanverbaltherapy,whichisconductedonaonetoonebasis.Thereisan

additionalelementinthebreathwork:Whenpeoplefunctionaswhatwecall

sitterstheyalternateintheserolesmanyofthemgetsointerestedinthis

thattheyactuallygetintothetraining.Theresalmostlikeachainreactionthere,

sowefeellikeitcouldreallyinfluencequiteafewpeopleifthatmethodbecomes

popular.


15/17

Themostexcitingthingthatwehaveseenisthat,besidestheemotionaland

psychosomatichealingthathappens,peoplewhodothissystematicallyand

responsiblyactuallyexperienceaprofoundtransformationoftheirworldview.For

example,theirlevelofaggressionisloweredbecausetheyworkthroughalotof

theiraggressioninthematerialthatisemerging.Theydevelopasenseof

compassion,asenseofbelonging.Youdonthavetoteachpeopleecologywhen

theyhavetranspersonalexperiencesofonenesswithnatureandwithother

speciesandwithotherpeople.Theyrealizethatsenseofunderlyingunityin

natureandtheyapproachtheecologicalproblemsinacompletelydifferentway.

Theyrealizethatweareallinterconnectedwithnature,andthatwecannot

damagenaturewithoutsimultaneouslydamagingourselves.Theyalsostart

developingadeeptoleranceintermsofgender,race,culture,ideology,religious

differences.Theystartseeingthesedifferencesmoreasinteresting,asindications

oftheinfinitecreativityofthecosmiccreativeprinciple,ratherthansomething

thatyouwouldliketoeliminate.Theydevelopspiritualitywhichisnon

denominational,thattranscendstheadherencetoaparticularorganizedreligion

whichtendstounitepeoplewhoarerelatingtothesamekindofimagesofthe

divineorconceptofthedivine,butatthesametimedividetheworld,becauseit

setsthatgroupagainstothergroups:WeareChristians;youarepagans,We

areMuslims;youareChristians,WeareHindus;youareSikhs,andsoon,

differencesthatareenoughtoendinbloodshed.Evensmalldifferenceswithin

thesamefaith,liketheProtestantsandtheCatholics,ortheShiitesandtheSunis,

thedifferencesareenoughforkillingtheothergroup.Thisisnotthekindof

religion

that

we

need

in

the

world.

But

people

who

do

some

systematic

inner

workwithwhatIcallholotropicstatesthendevelopaspiritualitythatsuniversal,

thatsallencompassing.ThatIfindvery,veryhopeful.

Icanseeafuturereligionwhereyouwouldofferpeople,firstofall,youwould

valuespiritualityasanimportantdimensioninhumanlife,andimportantpartof

humanexistence.Youwouldgivepeoplesomemeansthroughwhichtheycould

havepersonalexperiences.Youcouldprovidesupportforthem,butyouwould

haveabsolutelynoinvestmentwhethertheirexperienceswouldbeusing

Buddhistimagery,orHinduimagery,oriftheywouldgointhedirectionof

ancientEgyptorAustralianaborigines.Youwouldhonoritasjustdifferent

manifestationsofonesource,whichtranscendsthemall.Ithinkthatkindof

spiritualitymightbetheonlywayoutofthiscrisisinwhichwearenow,where

theworldissoprofoundly,sopainfullydividedinmanydifferentways.

TS:Nowthisterm,Irealizewedidntdefineit:holotropic.Thisisnotexactlythe

sameasnonordinarystatesofconsciousness.Youcoinedthetermholotropic?


16/17

SG:Yes,Idid.Ibecameinterestedinasignificantsubgroupofnonordinary

stateswhicharehealing,whicharetransformative,evenevolutionary,andwhich

havewhatwecancallheuristicpotential,whichiswecanlearnnewthingsabout

consciousness,aboutpsyche,andeventhenatureofreality.Thosearethe

experiencesthat,forexample,shamansexperienceduringtheirinitiatorycrisis;or

thattheyinduceintheirclients;orexperiencesthattheinitiateshaveintherites

ofpassageofdifferentnativecultures;ortheexperiencesthattheinitiateshadin

theancientdeathrebirthmysteries;theexperiencesoftheBuddhist,theHindu,

theChristianmystics,theTaoist,theKabbalist,andsoon.Ibecamesoastounded

thatpsychiatrydoesnothaveanameforthisimportantsubcategory.Wehave

justthatoneterm,alteredstates,whichdescribeseverythingfromdelirium

tremensorhallucinationsduringtyphoidfevertoatruemysticalexperience.We

donthaveadistinctionofaspiritual,mysticexperienceandapsychotic

experience.Soeverynonordinarystatewouldbeseenaspathologicalandwould

becalledaltered.Idontlikethattermforthisimportantsubgroup.Eventhat

term,nonordinary,seemstoobroad,becauseitwouldincludemanystateswhich

aredifferentfromordinaryconsciousness,butdonthavethosekindsofpositive

qualitiesthatIhavedescribed.

SoIstartedtocallthemholotropic.Holosmeanswhole,andtropainmeans

movingtowardorinthedirectionofsomething.Likeinthetermheliotropism,

theplanthastheabilitytoalwaysfollowthesunororientitselftowardthesun.

Soitmeansmovingtowardwholeness,whichofcoursesuggestssomething

thatwouldsurprisetheaveragepersonintheindustrialsociety,whichsuggests

thatwesomehowarenotwholeinthewayweexperienceourselvesinoureverydaylife.Toexplainthat,IusuallyrefertothekindofaHindushorthand.In

theHindureligion,theywouldtellyouyouarenotnamarupa,youarenotname

andform,youarenotthebodyego.Youcarrywithinyourselfakindofadivine

coreordivinespark,andtheygiveyoumethodsinwhichyoucangetempirical,

experientialvalidationofthat.Youcanactuallyexperienceidentificationwiththat

core.Theycallitatman,andifyouexperienceit,yourealizethatthatenergyand

thatstateofconsciousnessisidenticalwiththatcore,withtheenergyorthestate

ofconsciousnessofthecreativeprincipleitself,brahma.

Theseholotropicstatestakeusfromourordinaryidentity,thebodyego,allthe

waytothisexperiencewiththecosmicsource,sometimesinsmallsteps,

sometimesinmajorjumps,majorbreaks.Sothatsthemeaningofthatterm,

holotropic.Wecankindofreclaimourcosmicstatus,ifyouwant.

TS:Well,Ifeellike,inthisconversation,weveexploredafirstlayerof,asyou

mentioned,fourorfivedecadesofyourwork,whichhasreallymadesucha


17/17

contributiontoourcollectiveunderstanding.ThefinalquestionIhaveforyou,

Stan,is:Hereyouvemadesuchatremendouscontribution,helpingbring

attentiontotranspersonallevelsofunderstanding,theperinataldimensionofour

experience.Doyoufeelasenseoffulfillment?

SG:IhaveasensethatIhavehadaveryinterestinglife,andtheexperiences

themselveswere

kind

of

self

validating.

Obviously

Iwould

love

to

have

more

time,butIalsohavethissensethatmaybetherewillbemoretime,youknow,if

thatconceptofreincarnationturnsouttobetrue.Idonthaveanyregrets.

Whetherwhatwehavediscoveredwillbeacceptedbytheculture,whetherits

goingtobeactuallyuseful,thatsnotuptome.Thatsonthecircumstancesin

otherpeople,too,todecide.Obviously,ifIcoulddoitagain,therearethingsthat

Iwoulddodifferently,butIthinkthateverythingconsideredwasdonewithin

whatwasmycapacitiesatthetime.

TS:It

seems

to

me,

Stan,

that

youre

apioneer,

and

its

simply

amatter

of

time

beforetheculturemeetsyou.Thatwouldbemyview.

Well,Stan,thankyousomuchforthisconversation.

SG:Thankyou.Itsbeenagreatpleasure,asalways,totalktoyou.Thankyouso

muchforhavingme.

TS:And,asImentionedtoourlisteners,Ireallybelievethatwevebarely

skimmed

the

surface.

Stan

Grof

is

the

author

of

a

new

book

on

Holotropic

Breathwork:ANewApproachtoSelfExplorationandTherapy,aswellasabook

fromSoundsTruecalledWhentheImpossibleHappens:AdventuresinNon

OrdinaryRealities,inwhichStantellsmanystoriesfromhispersonallife,andthen

alsoaverydeepandrichsixCDseriesonTheTranspersonalVision,whichcovers

alotofthetheorythatwetouchedupontodayonthehealingpotentialofnon

ordinarystatesofconsciousness.Soundstrue.com.Manyvoices,onejourney.

close

tami simon- stanislav grof: learning from non‐ordinary states interviewed

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