snap selling 1 robert middleton interviews jill konrathactionplan.com/pdf/konrath_10.pdf · jill:...

SNAP SELLING 1 Robert Middleton Interviews Jill Konrath

Copyright ©2010 Robert Middleton, Action Plan Marketing - www.actionplan.com

Robert: Hi, everyone. This is Robert Middleton of Action Plan Marketing and the Action Plan Marketing Club. I have today one of my favorite people to interview, Jill Konrath, of Selling to Big Companies, and Jill recently wrote a new book called SNAP Selling.

Welcome, Jill. Welcome to the call.

Jill: Thank you, Robert. I’m glad to be here.

Robert: I’m really glad to have you as well because selling is always a big issue for info gurus. It’s as big an issue as marketing, and it’s really part of the marketing process.

So we’re going to get into selling from a different angle, the ideas that your book is based on called SNAP selling. Why don’t you tell us what the concept is behind SNAP selling?

Jill: I’d be glad to. What I discovered in the last couple years, and actually I’ve been thinking about it for much longer, is I really discovered that the people that we’re calling on are crazy-busy, and I literally mean that they are crazy-busy.

A few years ago, it was bad, but when the economy took a downturn, it got even worse as companies were laying off staff, and the people that were left behind suddenly had to do the work of two or three people when they were already doing the work of two people.

And they didn’t get any extra resources to get the work done. They were just pretty much told to be glad that they had their jobs and, “Keep working and keep your head



down, and don’t make waves.” The reality of it is all that has a real huge impact on how you sell.

And even if the company isn’t downsizing and they’re still growing, and yes, there are still companies doing that right now, they’re not adding staff like they used to.

Robert: So essentially they’re frantic. They’re overwhelmed. They’re overburdened.

Some of you on the call are people that go in and help companies like that get a little more sane, have better leadership, better management, better time management, and all that stuff, but it’s hard to even get in the door or get their attention because of this thing you call sort of the crazy factor.

Jill: Right.

Robert: So that’s what it’s about. It’s how to sell to crazy people.

Jill: Not crazy people, crazy-busy people who are overwhelmed, stressed out, overburdened. Let me ask you this, Robert, and I’ll turn it right back on you. What happens to you when you’re crazy-busy and somebody wants your attention?

Robert: Well, I just ignore them, I used to say.

Jill: I rest my case.

Robert: My strategy, I’m not exactly proud of it, but my strategy with my phone is, “Thank you for calling me. Don’t leave a message. Send me an email. I’ll get back to you.” It’s easier for me because I can fit in lots of email, and I don’t



have to worry about reaching somebody back. And so if I’m like that, I’m sure a lot of other people are like that.

So probably phone calls are not getting returned as often, and it wasn’t easy before. People are meeting with you and talking with you, but making decisions a long time because there’s 10 million other things happening.

So what’s your big focus on the book? Is it more getting in the door, or is there parts in it about closing the sale and taking care of clients and all that kind of stuff?

Jill: It’s really about how to get the order and all the way from the very front to the end. And as you probably know from our previous conversations, I don’t believe in closing skills. I mean, I think closing skills are trite and they’re passé.

Robert: Overrated.

Jill: Oh my god, they’re so overrated. And people hate to ask them. But still you need to get the business, and I believe in a series of logical next steps where you just suggest the next step would be to take care of this or to get started on the project and handle the paperwork. It’s no closing ever.

But anyway, what I do in the book is I divide the sales process from our perspective into three separate categories not based on what we do as sellers, but what the people we’re trying to reach do as buyers.

The reality of it is they have three primary decisions that they’re making in regards to us who are trying to reach them and give them an opportunity to use our services.



The first decision that they make, and the hardest one for most of us right now, is the first decision they make is to allow access to them. And like you just said, you ignore all attempts to reach you, or you ignore most of them, and it takes a whole lot to break through the clutter and to capture the attention of Robert Middleton so you can actually have a conversation with him.

And every other person is the same way out there. And so what we’ve got in the first decision, we have a very short window where much has to be accomplished in very little tiny bits of interaction, whether it’d be an email or a voicemail message that you might leave or an initial conversation.

And then once you get their attention and they agree to meet with you, then you roll into the second decision. The second decision that your prospect makes is to change from the status quo. And that requires entirely different behaviors than what you did to get your foot in the door because it involves more consultation.

It involves finding out if there’s a valid business reason to change, and it’s helping them deal with the complexities of everything that they need to get in place and aligned in their organization in order to say, “Okay, we’re going to change.” Because it’s not just, “I like it.” So many things require a lot of work and buy-in just to make happen.

And then finally we move to the third decision, which is once they’ve decided to change from the status quo, then they want to see what are the options that are out there?

So even though you may have been working with them all the way through this point, they just don’t feel necessarily



that they can make a decision to go ahead with you unless they look at what else is available. Or sometimes their company has requirements that you must get three bids.

And so those are the three decisions that the book centers around, but it doesn’t get into taking care of people because that’s not my emphasis. My expertise is in how do you get business?

Robert: And also, something else different about this book is selling to big companies was just that, selling to much bigger companies, to corporations, whereas, the ideas in this book are really selling to small companies, medium companies as well, right?

Jill: Right. That’s absolutely true, and I would like to make a clarification if I might. I have had many people write to me who are info gurus and say, “I only sell to medium-size companies. I don’t call on the GEs or the Dell Computers or American Airlines of the world. Is this book appropriate?”

Selling to Big Companies was actually written for my friends who are info gurus who are trying to get bigger contracts, so that book in itself is not only about selling to big companies. It’s about good selling to get decent-size contracts.

Robert: Maybe you have to re-title the book.

Jill: I know.

Robert: Selling to mostly big companies.

Jill: Or even just I say to people it’s about selling to bigger companies. Bigger because a lot of consultants and people



that offer their services really do need a couple good-sized clients in order to get above the fearful stage and to not have money being a pressing matter all the time. You just need a few good base clients in order to relax in your job and to be able to do the work you love.

Robert: So let’s get right into these three things: access, status quo and options. So access is a big issue. Now, where do you start with this? What do people need to know first?

Jill: First of all, they need to know that their prospect, the person they’re trying to reach, is sitting with his or her finger on the delete button at all times.

Robert: I.E. your voicemail button.

Jill: Voicemail delete or email delete. And they are making lightning-quick decisions in regards to your contact. Are they going to delete you into oblivion as fast as they can? And by the way, on voicemails, you get approximately five to seven seconds. They’re listening in five to seven-second increments, and you have to keep interesting that whole time and not move into sales talk.

On email, research into that shows that the average person takes 2.7 seconds to make a decision if they will continue reading your email, if it will be deleted, or if they will forward it to a more appropriate person.

Robert: Right. Now, it sounds like you’re saying this is if you’re making a first contact. Are these people that, as they say, don’t know you, like you and trust you? You have no communication. This is a first opening salvo to get their attention for something?



Jill: Yes. And let me clarify that. Even if you go in with a referral, “Susie Jones suggested that I contact you,” from the prospect’s point, they will give you a glance, and they’ll pay a little bit more attention to you, but you still have to deliver the goods in terms of what it takes for them to say, “Okay, I’m willing to talk.”

Just having a referral doesn’t mean anything. Just saying we talked earlier doesn’t mean anything. You have to give them some solid reasons to talk with you.

Because literally what’s going on in their head as they’re listening to your voicemail message, if you happen to catch them on the phone, if they’re listening to you then and talking to you, or if they read your email, they are literally posing four questions in their head that they are checking off. And if you don’t pass their SNAP check, you’re gone just like that.

And so I think what’s important is for people to understand what are the four decisions that they’re making because that’s how they’re being evaluated.

Robert: But before we get into the four decisions, a lot of people get their contacts or follow-ups from speaking engagements, from networking, as you say, sometimes referrals. So there’s some connection. I mean, my favorite is getting leads from speaking engagements.

Jill: Me, too. I love it, too. That happens to me all the time.

Robert: So you have some familiarity with that prospect. They have a sense of you. They don’t know you really, but they have a good sense of you, and so you want to follow up.



In that case, I know it’s easier than if you’re a stranger by a long shot.

Jill: It is easier.

Robert: But still, as you say, you can’t assume, or you can’t do it the old way you’ve always done. It’s like blowing it. Here you have this golden lead of someone that maybe gave you their card and said, “I’d like to know more,” and then you follow up or leave an email message, and it still gets deleted.

I hear this all the time, “Well, I got a great lead from this friend, and I called them three times, and they never returned my call.”

Jill: Right, and everybody’s too busy, and they won’t. What a lot of people don’t understand, let me switch subjects quickly, is that it’s not just one, two or three contacts with crazy-busy people, because your message could come in on the day when hell has just broken loose, or they just had announcements that third-quarter earnings were down, and everything’s on hold. Delete, delete, delete. These are things that are totally outside of your control.

So even a good message that is delivered properly with the right stuff in it that would normally capture their attention will fall on deaf ears depending on what’s going on in the ecosystem of your prospect because it’s not just about them with their business issues. It’s what’s surrounding them and what their customers are doing.

Robert: The business environment will change and will change again. But right now, it’s crazy-busy like never before. It’s



a funny thing, Jill. It seems to keep accelerating, and you wonder. Something’s got to give at some point.

I mean, ultimately things have to be sold. People have to buy various services, and they will. But the one that’s really prepared and is following the kind of things that you and I recommend are the ones that are going to get through.

So to set a context, this could be a cold call that someone you think is a very good lead for whatever reason, or it could be a follow-up call from all kinds of sources that you make, but still you have to do it right.

I just want to let people know you don’t necessarily have to make these cold calls. But I just wrote an ezine this week about follow-up, “The Follow-Up Gap.” We’re terrible at following up, which means terrible at making these calls. Or we do this thing. We wait for them to call us back.

Jill: Oh, yeah, well, they’re not going to. Period. You know how you are. How many times do you pick up the phone and say, “Oh my god, this sounds really interesting. I want to talk. Please call me.”

Robert: It’s very rare. I mean, if you get that, that’s called the “bluebird” in sales. The bluebird of happiness flew up your nose.

Jill: Right and it just doesn’t happen often enough. And the other thing too, I’d like to add, is I think it’s important to do a ton of marketing activities. And you know, they probably don’t, those who are listening, that you actually



created my first website and really helped me get going again after my business had taken a downturn.

And I totally believe in everything that you talk about in terms of being an info guru and having a website that’s just stacked with really good stuff. And if people take a look at my websites, they’d see that I do what you preach.

And yet, and still, and here’s the yet and still that I’d like to add. Even though I am very out there, not all the right companies will call me.

And the reality of it is I have to do an attraction strategy like you suggest, and I also, if I really want to work at certain companies, if I’m driving past them every day, and I’m going, “Oh, my god, why aren’t I working at this company? They’re such a big company. They’ve got to have money. They could really use my services,” then at that point, you can’t just wait to hope that Medtronic calls you or United Healthcare.

Robert: The chances are about as good as winning the lottery.

Jill: To just hope that they might call you?

Robert: Unless you take some action. You can also do things like LinkedIn and find out who you know is in your list knows somebody. Well, tell us the kind of things that you do in access. You said there were four.

Jill: I said there are four questions that the customer is posing. From my perspective, I think it’s most important to immerse yourself in the customer’s perspective and to truly understand it from their perspective.



They’re crazy-busy. They need to determine if it’s worth it to give you even five minutes of their time, and they're terrified that if they let you in the office that you might blather on and on about your unique services.

Robert: They’re not ready for second base yet, which is the sales process. So you have to get their attention and all that.

Jill: Right. So every contact you have with them, and a contact might be a phone call. It could be a voicemail message. It could be the email or following up from a speaking engagement. Every contact you have with them, they’re basically evaluating four things.

SNAP is an acronym, and I’ll show you how it fits together. The first thing they’re asking themselves is, “Is this aligned with what my charter is, my business objective?” So, aligned is critical. That starts with the “A.” That’s the A in SNAP.

So if it’s aligned and they get that’s it’s aligned with what they’re trying to accomplish, then you’ve passed the first check test, the first thing.

Robert: Wait. Give us an example of what you mean by aligned.

Jill: All right. Can I give an example of a phone call?

Robert: Yeah.

Jill: Because it all has to go in the context of a phone call. I’ll just use it saying that I’m talking about my services when I did product launch consulting because I think that helps people more than where I’m at today.



I would call you up, and I would say, “Hi, Robert. This is Jill Konrath calling. I’m the founder of www.SellingtoBigCompanies.com. We specialize in offering a full range of product launch services all the way from how to conceptualize your product, to get your sales force, to sell a whole lot of it. I’d love to set up a time to talk with you to find out how you’re doing this and to share with you what we can do in our company.” And then I give my phone number.

Now, that’s typical, and it’s very nice, and it follows the format of introduction. “Hi, I’m Jill Konrath. I’m the founder of Selling to Big Companies.” Then the next thing is an overview of our company, “We specialize in offering a full range,” or “We specialize in a niche market,” whatever you say, and then, “I would love to come and talk with you to find out how you’re handling things and share with you what we can do,” and finally, “Let’s set up a time to get together.”

Robert: So everyone take note. This is not the way to do it.

Jill: This is not the way to do it.

Robert: You should not be taking notes on this part.

Jill: Well, you just told them to take notes, Robert!

Robert: Yeah, but not in this part.

Jill: I know. Well, the truth is 95% of the people who are out there selling are using this “gracious message,” as I call it. And it’s really about who we are. We offer a full range. I’m the president of, we offer a full range. I’d love to meet with you, and I’d be glad to meet at your earliest convenience.



Robert: Yes, we offer a full range of management leadership development services. Oh, god, what morass am I getting into?

Jill: Right. And so what we need to realize is that when the person hears what you do, they immediately go, “Oh, god, not another consultant, not another salesperson.” Delete.

They don’t care about what you do. So what you have to do when you align it is you have to say, “What are the business issues that they’re trying to reach and trying to achieve?”

Now from my perspective, my clients are struggling with new client acquisition, so that is a big issue. They’re trying to get more new clients in the door, which everybody listening is probably struggling with, too. And so I need to be focusing on new client acquisition as opposed to my training programs.

I could say I offer a full range of training programs.

Robert: That sounds familiar. Results not process. Right?

Jill: Right. So when you talk about being aligned, it has to be a business-focus alignment. And people might say, “But Jill, what you just said is aligned. They need training programs. They need to have these kinds of training programs.”

Yeah, they do. But why do they need to have them is the critical issue. And that’s the language you have to talk because if they don’t have the strong leadership program, they’re having consequences, bad results. They’re not being able to achieve their goals.



You must be aligned, and that’s the very first thing. And if you don’t say anything about a business issue in your email, your phone call, whatever, you’re going to get deleted or dismissed readily.

Robert: So an issue, challenge, a problem, a pain, some real issue that they have troubles with now, you have to be tuned in to that, and if you know you have something that solves a business issue that these kind of clients need, that has to poke them in the mind.

Jill: It has to just, boom, hit them right head-on. I mean, they’ve got to hear it.

Robert: So if I say, “Well, we’ve worked with companies similar to yours,” although I don’t cold call, “we work with companies that want to grow their business, but it stopped, and they just don’t have a strategy to grow their business consistently,” something like that. That would get their attention.

Jill: That would get their attention. And then you might add, by the way, “One of our recent clients was able to achieve this.” That makes it stronger.

We’ve got aligned. So now we’re talking aligned. The next thing that they ask is, “Is this a priority?” The P in SNAP is priority. Because they’re so crazy-busy, they only have mental bandwidth for a certain number of things.

Right now, as I’m doing my own work today, I have so many things that have to get done. I’m literally throwing them up in the air and saying, “Which one can I throw up right now so I can get the other ones done?” I’m



constantly making those decisions in terms of what can I put off to get the next thing done?

And so if you align with the key priority of theirs, if you are aware of something that’s going on in their organization right now that makes a need for your product or service more likely, they’ll pay attention to it more if you state that.

For example, if I would say to somebody, “I know your third-quarter earnings were flat. I have some ideas on how you can increase new customer acquisition to turn it around for fourth quarter.”

Robert: That’s fascinating.

Jill: That’s bringing in the “what’s happening now” thing. Because you said it’s now. Yes, it’s now. All they can handle is the now in many cases, or the next three to six months.

Robert: What if this is a smaller company where I can’t get that kind of intelligence, but I was referred or they gave me a card at a talk?

Jill: What you have to understand is that small companies have similar issues to each other, and you may not be able to find it out on their website. However, you may know that 75% of a leader’s time or all executives’ time in a small business is spent on communication issues and turf issues between employees.

And if you know that, and you’re a communications or a leadership coach, you’ve got something that you just know



because it’s a statistic about the industry, and it’s a problem they’re all facing.

Robert: That makes sense

Jill: For me, I know that every small business that I talk to, almost across the board, is facing problems with new client acquisition. I just know it.

Robert: That’ll kind of always be true, so that’s a good business to be in. But you’ve got to find the priority and understand the priority.

Jill: Right.

Robert: So for instance, I have some people in my courses, my mastery course, that are offering leadership programs, but I say no one wants to buy a leadership program, although they need it.

The issue is that they’re really the solution to crazy-busy syndrome because the leader is not good at leading and managing, therefore he takes all the stuff on, puts more stuff on his desk, doesn’t know how to give it to his subordinates, therefore, the big issues, the big strategy stuff he doesn’t have time for, and that’s a very good attention getter.

So if people are crazy-busy, if you’re selling services that help mitigate crazy-busyness by better management and leadership, you can definitely get attention as well.

Jill: Right.

Robert: And then a zillion other things.



Jill: I mean for right now I know that for me, I’m a bottleneck in my own system. Seriously, I mean, everything has to go through me, and I know that. And I choose to stay as a small company and not grow because that’s a choice of mine.

But there are many, many entrepreneurs out there who have taken the business as far as they can with their current skill set, and they are also a bottleneck in their own system, and they don’t know how to escape from that. And they don’t know what it takes to get back on the fast growth curve. And they would resonate with messages like that because they’re struggling, and they’re at their wit’s end.

Robert: Well, even if you got a call from somebody, “Joe Blow who I know had me call you. He told me that you were having a conversation, that it was not confidential, that you said you were a bottleneck in your own system.

“I just wanted the opportunity to talk with you because that’s what we specialize in, working with self-employed, independent professionals that are the bottleneck, and we’ve had tremendous success with lessening the burden they have in offloading it to other people in certain ways.” That would interest me. Maybe you need a better VA or this or that or whatever.

So you have to really understand the customer is what you’re talking about here.

Jill: Right. You have to really understand the customer. The truth of the matter is, and I tell this to people all the time, there is a price of admission required today. And by price of admission, I would like to say that when you go to



Disneyland, you have to pay $72 for the ticket in order to get in.

And when you call up any of these companies, you have to also pay the price of admission, and it’s not money. It’s knowledge and expertise, and you have to demonstrate to them that you’ve paid the price. You’ve done a little research on them. You have more than just a, “I’m just calling because Bob said to call,” thinking.

You have some good information, and it’s presented thoughtfully, and it’s in a way that they can grab on to. And they’re really evaluating you, by the way, which leads to the third question they’re asking, which is. is this person invaluable, or could this person be an invaluable resource? And invaluable starts with N. You probably didn’t know that.

Robert: I-N, invaluable.

Jill: And the reality of it is they don’t really care about your service. They know that there’s 100 gazillion other people out there like you who offer the same thing. All they care about is does he or she sound like they’d be an asset to my company because they have ideas, insights, information that makes me sit up and take notice?

And that’s what they’re listening for, not that you have a full range of programs or that you offer a bunch of services. They’re saying, “Does she get it? Does she understand my business? Does she have an idea for me?” That’s what they’re asking.

And then finally the last one and the S is on simple. Any time you’re talking to these people, if you throw in too



much stuff or use industry terms or whatever, their eyes glaze over, and they're like a deer in the headlights because you’ve complicated their already over-complicated life.

Robert: They can’t get to the point. They make it too confusing. You don’t really get what they offer really. You use a lot of industry jargon that just is confusing. You don’t speak English for god’s sake.

Jill: You don’t speak English, and you’re trying to impress them with all the depth of your expertise, which is really what a lot of consultant types do. They want them to be impressed with their expertise, and so they throw out a lot of stuff, which actually goes, “Huh, oh my god! This sounds horrible.”

I’ll give you a real example. Say, for example, Robert, you called up this person, and you said, “We work with people who are bottlenecks in their own system whose business is stalled out right now just because all the decisions flow through them, and they don’t know how to change things.”

Say I got a hold of you, and I said that to you, and you would say to me, “Hm, Jill, that’s interesting. Tell me more,” right?

Robert: Yes.

Jill: Because now I’ve caught your attention. And if I said, “Oh, Robert, I’d be glad to tell you more. We offer this full line of services all the way from how to do this and how to do that, and our company was founded in 1997. Prior to that, our owner came out of IBM where he was the top sales rep



for this company, and then we started this company, and we have all these clients, and our process is really good.”

Robert: Why don’t you call me back some other time? I’m getting a little busy right now.

Jill: No, no, I just want you to understand our process. First we do an extensive needs assessment because we want to make sure we really understand your problems and your challenges. And it’s going to take a lot of time and a lot of money, but I won’t say that right now. But that’s your impression by the way, and time is worth some money.

“We do this extensive needs analysis, and then we’re going to propose to you a whole restructuring.”

Imagine this crazy-busy person. You’re trying as a consultant to impress them with your methodology that you’d never do cookie-cutter things. You always do custom things that are well thought out and that require all this commitment from his organization. Panic!

Robert: To mix systems here, I have this thing called “Marketing Syntax” in which you say things in a certain order. And process is the last thing you talk about, never the first thing.

And process is complex, but they can’t hear it now because you haven’t interested them enough yet. They don’t see that you’re invaluable to this priority, and that it’s aligned because of all of this.

So you’ve told us this in the order other than SNAP, but in a way, simplicity is the key that makes it all work is what you’re saying. Keep it simple.



So what can they say instead of all the process? What do you recommend?

Jill: Just a very pointed business conversation where I might say, “Hi, Robert. Jill Konrath calling. I was recently reading a business journal, and I saw that one of your key initiatives this year was to expand your company by 25%. I know that many small business owners are bottlenecks in their own system and aren’t able to get out and lead their company in a strategic direction. Let’s set up a time to talk about it. Again, my name is Jill. My number is this.”

But it’d be very business focused about the issue. And notice I didn’t say what services that I offered. I didn’t even say “we specialize in.”

Robert: It was all about them. It was all about their problem and issue. And that’s intriguing that they’re interested in you.

So then you reach me in person, and I say, “Well, how do you work?” That’s a dangerous sentence, everybody, because you really don’t want to answer that question because “how do you work” means, “Oh, tell them about process.”

Jill: And they don’t want to hear that. Even though you think that that’s what they asked, it’s not what they want to hear.

Robert: We did an exercise at the recent Marketing Mastery Workshop with this sort of same thing. We call them “marketing conversations” whether it’s over the phone or in person.



I asked people, “What’s the main thing that you learned from this?” and everybody said stories work. That’s what got my attention. So if people just went quickly to a relevant story about a result, it always got their attention.

I’ve been teaching people that for years, but it popped out. It was like a big aha even for me. That was all they had to say. Stories made the difference. Stories, stories, stories.

Jill: Stories, it’s all about stories. So the answer to, “Oh, that’s interesting. Tell me more,” is “Let me give you an example, Robert. Last year I was working with a company that was running $5 million in sales. They’d been plateaued at that level for three years and just couldn’t seem to bust out of that.

“They had tried this. They had tried that. They’d tried everything that they could possibly think about. We started working with them, discovered a few key issues that we could have to create a high impact, and within six months they had increased their sales by 33%. We’re still working with them, and sales are going up from there.” That’s the answer to tell me more.

Robert: Wow, so how do you do that?

Jill: “Well, what we really need to do is set up a time to get together.”

Robert: I thought you were going to tell me, “Well, we have a wide range of services, too.”

Jill: Well, no, I wouldn’t tell you that. I mean the reality is if I’d gotten you this far, I’d say, “So this is interesting to



you. This sounds like something that’d be a value to you. Let’s set up a time to get together.”

And it would be very conversational, not salesy. I mean I have to tell people all the time, and I’ve done a lot of work with consultants, and my own background is consulting, and many, many of my friends are consultants, too. So I know how consultants when they put on their sales hat or info gurus of any kind who aren’t sales professionals, when they put on this sales hat, they turn into caricatures of the worst salespeople ever. Seriously.

Robert: Just the opposite of what they want. It’s what they resist is what they get.

Jill: I mean, I even have a hat sitting here in my office called my “sales hat” that I use when I’m talking to people, and it says “my sales hat” across the beam on the front because I want to show people how they fundamentally change when they think they have to sell. I mean they turn into these machines that spout that we have leading edge, state-of-the-art, robust, innovative, unique methodologies, and blah, blah, blah. And they are all pushing, and that is the worst salesperson in the world, not the best one.

And so they’ve got to stop. Stop putting on your sales hat to get business, and start being a grownup having a grownup conversation with somebody who may have a need.

Robert: I’m the kind of person that doesn’t like to waste time, but if I’m interested I might ask a little bit more, “Well, what’s the way you work generally?” It’s good to prepare short answers.



“What’s the way?” “Well, we have a combination of things, which includes consulting, coaching and training. There’s all kinds of ways we do it, but essentially, we focus on the needs, and we help our clients get results especially in this area that we were just talking about.”

So you’re just coming back to it’s about results, results, results.

Jill: Right. It’s all about results. And we’d have to figure out what it is when we know the specific challenge that you particularly want to address. And I think that’s real important to do that.

Robert: Good. So those are the four things that everybody’s concerned about. Is it aligned? That is, do you offer something that is of value to my company, to my mission, to my needs?

Jill: And it has to be stated in the verbiage that I speak.

Robert: That the buyer speaks.

Jill: Yes. And it’s got to, for example, have a business driver. And it’s like you look at somebody and how they’re evaluated, and then you have to use terminology that shows how they’re evaluated. So the CEO might be evaluated on revenue growth or operational efficiency. Different people in different positions have different things that they are evaluated on.

And you need to use the words that are important to them because they don’t give a rip about your neat services. They really don’t. Those are only tools to help them achieve their objectives.



Robert: Can this person help me solve my problem? Do they understand me? Do they understand my industry? All of that.

Jill: Is it hot now?

Robert: Now you’re drilling down is the real issue now.

Jill: And by the way, I’d like to say these are what I call “trigger events.” If you are alert to key issues facing your target business market or a specific position or company, you can create a message that is so right-on because you’re following and tracking these organizations.

You can do it via Google Alerts. You might be able to track venture capital funding, which might be good for some people, or you might be able to track new acquisitions, mergers, that kind of thing. You can use Google Alerts for that.

You can use Google Alerts for tracking what’s happening with the targeted companies that you really would love to do work with until you can find something that you go, “Oh, my goodness, they need help.” When you see that, you go, “Oh my god, this means they need my help,” and then you know that it’s hot.

And these trigger events, by the way, they do have a shelf life. I mean they’re hot now, but they’re not hot six months from now, so you have to take action.

Robert: And then the third one is being valuable, that is your currency is knowledge, not money, knowledge, understanding, expertise. You’re well-read. You know



what’s happening these days. You have insights. You’ve got information. You’ve got experience.

So something that, Jill, people tell me all the time, “I’m pretty new in my business. I don’t have a lot of success stories. I was working for another consultant, another company, or in-house with a company for years.”

Can we jump off on that for a second because some people go, “Well, this sounds all great, but I don’t sound qualified to sell.” You know what I’m saying?

Jill: Yeah.

Robert: And even though if they got in and started working with clients, they could be pretty decent in some cases. You’ve got to start somewhere, and you don’t have to be a Tom Peters or whatever to get in and make a difference with a company.

Jill: Right. And here’s what I would say to any individual who’s just starting their own business. Number 1, the first thing I’d say, is when you started your own company, most of you had previous work experience, and everything that you did in your previous job is real. It didn’t go away just because you started a new company.

So whether you led a marketing campaign that had some great results when you worked for a big company or a mid-size company, whether you created a leadership development program that you used within a big corporation, you have had results your whole life. And that doesn’t go away.



And so you need to claim your expertise from your entire career, not just from this moment on when I happen to be an info guru. So that’s one thing.

And the second thing I would suggest is if you’re young and if you’re just starting out, then you’re probably going to have to do a few volunteer projects at the same time, or work for some smaller businesses to get some results.

I would encourage people not necessarily to work with small businesses all the time, but to try to push themselves up market. Say you started out with a one-person business and to get a few notches on your belt, then you need to push yourself up to a little bit larger company and larger company because each time you go, you should expand your confidence level and allow you to go after and pursue bigger companies, not huge companies, just bigger.

And the reason you go after bigger is they have deeper pockets, and they can afford what you do more, and they appreciate your value more than selling to the small individual.

Robert, when you sold me doing my website, I had no idea how much work it took to create a website. I had no idea, and so you were charging me all this money. I’m going, “Huh? Help! That’s a lot of money,” and then I’m panic stricken about it.

But I didn’t value it and understand it because I was too small to get it, whereas if you’re going after more medium-size companies who are used to paying for services, they appreciate you more.



Robert: The fact that I work with independent professionals, some people say, “Well, that looks like a good market. Robert’s doing that.” It’s not the easiest market in the world.

Jill: It’s a tough market. It is a tough market because you’re constantly having to search for new customers. You’ve built over the years, and you’ve offered different programs over the years, and you keep and are constantly focusing on attracting new people into your business, but I have to tell you the hardest people in the world for independent contractors, info gurus, to sell to are small companies because their pockets aren’t deep enough. And they have to make a choice between buying shoes for their children or working with you. That’s true.

And maybe they want to barter, and they don’t appreciate how much time and effort you put into it. I mean it’s just really, really hard, which is why I continually urge independent contractors, the info gurus, to move up market.

Robert: It’s like my friend and associate, Patrick Summar.

Jill: What did you call him?

Robert: Friend and associate.

Jill: I thought you said your friend and sociopath. You tell him that.

Robert: You’d better edit that out.

Jill: Well, is he a sociopath or not?

Robert: He’s not. Let me see. I don’t know if we’ll edit this or not or let people laugh along. But my friend and associate,



Patrick Summar, started out coaching at a very, very low rate, and he realized if he was going to charge more, he simply had to work with companies that had more money and that could justify the fees. It’s as simple as that, but often we don’t look at that. It’s like we keep trying exactly the same market.

A big shift in my business came when I decided to work with more successful info gurus, ones that were already making $100,000 or more, and they could afford to do my Marketing Mastery Program. So even though I’m still in the range of info gurus, there’s different levels within that.

So you’ve given us these things that you really have to understand and consider just to get access.

Jill: Just to get access. And the other thing I outline in SNAP Selling is how do you use those four key areas to help them understand why they need to change because their second decision is to change from the status quo.

And believe me, the last thing in the world that crazy-busy people want to do is add more work to their already overflowing schedule. And any change, regardless of how simple it is, requires work.

And I can assure you even though computer companies tell me that it’s a seamless transition to upgrade my system, and they port it over for me, something doesn’t work, and it causes me great aggravation at a moment in time when I’m desperately needing to get something done.



So I mean people are reticent to change, but they will, first of all, if they know that it’ll make a difference. They’ll understand the business value it provides.

And secondarily, if they feel you guiding them, guiding them, get that, guiding them through the process.

One of the things that’s fascinating to me that has fundamentally shifted with people in how they make decisions, most of us who are on this call today are consultants of some shape, form or manner.

Robert: We’re coaches. We’re trainers, often a combination of all three these days is big.

Jill: We want to be consultative. It is how we see ourselves. It is the right way for us, right?

Robert: Yes.

Jill: We would never presume to know what’s going on in somebody else’s business unless we had a chance to talk with them. So frequently, we talk about needing to do this needs analysis and wanting to understand what’s going on in their business before we do anything.

And I want you to flip-side that, and go to the customer’s shoe, and having somebody say, “I’d really love to come and find out how you’re handling things in this area, and then perhaps share with you how we might be able to help.”

As a customer, a potential buyer, I want to hear right up front that you’ve worked with people like me, and you don’t need to do any of this analysis, that you get it. I need to know from the onset that you really get it.



And you will get consultative with people, but they're not going to meet with you to do a needs assessment. It’s going to be harder to get a needs assessments than saying, “Let’s set up a time to get together, and I can share with you how we’ve worked with some other companies to help them achieve some pretty important results.”

So you get this meeting, whether it’s by phone or in person, and you do have to start the meeting with a few more stories or at least one good story because, again, that’s your premise for being there. That gets them interested. Again, it reignites the interest because now you’re talking a real story.

And then you move into consultative. But you can’t move into consultative until after you’ve got them on the phone. You’ve got them on the phone. You’ve given them good reasons. They know that you get it. You come to their office, or you set up the meeting, and meet with them.

Again, you have to show them that you know the stuff. Good example, good example, and then you say, “But Robert, that’s enough about what we do. What’s really important is to determine if this is something that can help your organization.” And then you transition into questions.

Robert: What are your goals? What do you want? All that kind of stuff before you start.

Well, why don’t you tell people a little bit about the things not to do in this meeting because sometimes I assume. You tell people what to do, and then you find out they’re doing all of these things that are the exact opposite of



what they need to be doing. Have you got some examples for those?

Jill: Oh, no!

Robert: I’m sure you do. I mean it’s just funny the things that people do, and you go, “Oh my god, you did that? No wonder you didn’t get the sale.” Some of these things are kind of counterintuitive, but I think that would be useful.

Jill: A couple things I would say. I think you should go into a sales call naked. And when I say that, I mean you should not bring any brochures or collateral about your company. That’s often the hardest thing for people to do because they need a talking point something. They need something to talk from, and so they feel compelled to bring out the company brochure or something that outlines their comprehensive services.

The minute you whip something like that out in a very first call, and the earlier you whip it out, the less likely you are to move ahead with a customer.

Robert: I call it “going into presentation mode too soon.”

Jill: Yes.

Robert: It’s like, “Oh, let’s do our dog-and-pony show. I have an audience.” I think that’s one that people do a lot. It’s like, “Forget about the questions. I’ll just tell them exactly what we can do, and of course, they’ll love it because, after all, we love it. Look at all the time I put into this. And of course they’ll want to buy it.”

Jill: It’s kind of like you have a deck of cards, and because you set your meeting up to talk about new customer



acquisition, rather than just pulling out the new customer acquisition card and focusing on that once you get in there, you go, “Well, shoot, we’ve got 51 other things that we can do in this deck of cards. Maybe if I just spread the whole deck out across the table and talk about our whole range of services, they’ll pick one that they like.”

Robert: So lack of focus in the conversation.

Jill: It’s like Santa dumping his whole goody bag in front of your kids at Christmas. Pick one. I can’t pick any. They’re all so good. But honestly, that’s what people do. They throw things out on the table to impress people. And especially small businesses do that because they know that they want to appear like they can do a lot, so they often show way too much.

Another thing would be to lean back in calls. That’s a real strange thing to say, but people who sit up close to the desk and lean forward in a meeting with the client push the customer back, and they cross their arms.

Robert: So you’re saying leaning back is better than pushing forward.

Jill: Oh, yes.

Robert: Okay, good.

Jill: Yes, you need to lean back with your pencil and paper and take notes while you’re there. Here’s how it typically happens, though. You’ll say we work with companies that do this, then you’ll be maybe explaining an example, and then you might say, “Do you have any problems with that



at all?” and they go, “Yeah, we do. We’ve had some problems with that.”

The typical seller reaction, and remember everybody’s got their sales hat on now, they’ve heard “we have problems,” and they go, “Yes! This is it! They have problems I can solve.” And without blinking an eye, the minute they hear that, they suddenly shift their body forward, and say, “We can work with you on that. We’ve done a lot of projects like that.”

And it’s a normal human reaction. It’s a physical move that is readily observed in a sales call. I first discovered this when I was actually working with young salespeople when I was at Xerox and training them.

They said, “Well I am being consultative. I am asking questions.” And I’d watch them in these calls, and the minute they heard that somebody had an issue or a problem, their body leaned forward.

When I finally was able to talk with them about watch your body, it was like they got it, that they had switched modes. Everybody’s going to do this now. You’re going to be on a call and talk to somebody and lean forward, and go, “Oh my god! Jill said don’t lean forward, and here I am, stuck leaning forward. What do I do now?”

And there’s only one thing that you can do. You can hit yourself on the head with one hand. I’m right-handed. I hit myself in my forehead with my right hand, and I push myself back, and I say, “Robert, I’m sorry. Sometimes I get so excited about what we do. But listen, back to you.” It’s like a bop on your head, push yourself back into that



consultative position, and say, “Oh, I’m sorry. Sometimes I get so excited.”

Robert: You have to restrain yourself. I was doing a role-play in my workshop about this of just meeting someone in a networking gathering and find out what they do. And this person was showing interest, etc., and everyone would say, “I can’t believe, Robert, how you just stayed so centered, and just kept the conversation going, and you never pressed at any point.”

I just wait until they lean into me. And that’s really a bit of an art, but I think you’ve demonstrated it well. If you’re pushing too hard, they are pushing back.

Jill: They’re retreating. You push too hard, they’re backing away. They’re retreating from you. They suddenly realize they’re being sold.

Robert: But if you’re asking really great questions, and the implications of that, and the real big results they want, and what’s more important to them, and all of that kind of stuff, then you’re sparking their creativity. Then you’re going to come up with better solutions anyway and a better approach. And you don’t have to just say, “Oh, we have the perfect solution for you right this minute.”

Jill: And the other thing, too, and that leads to one of the other suggestions, and again, I have a gazillion because this is my life, and I think about it all the time. The other thing that I see sellers do too much is try to rush the sale. It’s like if you’re meeting with a big-company person or a medium-company person or even a small one, you’re anxious and you’re eager because you want more money



in your pocket, and you want to get working on the contract.

And so you try to do too much in one call. And any time you’re meeting with a medium-size company or any company that has a decent size opportunity for you, you should never give the recommendation that you have on the call.

You should say to them, “You’ve given me a lot to think about today, Robert. I want to go back to my office and put my thoughts together for you. Let’s set up a time to meet perhaps next Thursday if that works out with your schedule, and we’ll talk about these ideas that I have for your organization.”

But the reason you do that is multiple. I mean there’s multiple reasons. Number 1, if you put it all out in the first call, why are you coming back? There’s no reason to get back.

Number 2, the reality of it is every info guru that I work with wants to develop relationships, and so you have to create a forum where you get a chance to build the relationship over time, which means you’ve got to have a second meeting.

It doesn’t have to be in person. It could be on the phone. You could send them a PDF and talk on the phone about it, but you need to set up the second meeting before you leave and not play all your cards from that first meeting because that doesn’t get you anywhere. It turns you into a self-serving salesperson and someone who sounds desperate for work and, “Let me tell you how much! You can have this for $3,000, and this is my $5,000 package.”



Instead, you want to come back and say, “Thanks for the meeting last week. As I understand it, here are the three things that are most important to you. As you look for your objectives for this coming year, here’s what you’re struggling with. Here’s my ideas, and here’s what I would propose.”

Robert: Very good. So I have a question about kind of an opposite situation where you get a call. Maybe you have a great website. I found this with people that have really good websites. They get calls sometimes from fairly qualified prospects, but what they want is what’s it going to take to do a half-day team-building retreat? What’s your price for that? People are kind of price shopping. The website attracted them, but they’re going too fast.

Jill: No, no, they’re going at their own pace, and they’re not too fast. That’s how buyers think. So you can’t say they’re going too fast. They’re simply shopping because right now people go to the internet. They scan. They see three different management consultants that they could use for a retreat, and they want to know what the price is.

So what do you do? You don’t give them the price right away. You say, “Let me understand the context because the kind of thing that we do depends on what we agree needs to be done.”

And then you have your list of questions to ask them. What’s prompted this management retreat? What are the key issues that you’re facing in the upcoming year? What are you hoping to achieve in the next 12 months? What are the major bottlenecks? You actually start asking questions.



Robert: What I find is the sales process might go faster than another way because, after all, they’re very motivated and interested. However, you can also fall back to what you’ve done before. “Well, let me tell you all these things, and we’ll give you a proposal.”

All of a sudden you’re doing a proposal for someone that you hardly know anything about.

Jill: I know.

Robert: And you realize, well, they just needed three proposals. They already chose somebody.

Jill: Right. You know, the truth of the matter is people are afraid to ask these questions, but the reality of it is you should be asking, “What else are you looking at? What are your criteria for making a decision? How will you be able to differentiate between the three different people that you’re looking at?”

These are frank questions. They’re not salesy questions. They’re just questions you need to ask in order to get the information you need and to decide if it’s a fit as well.

Robert: Makes sense. So all of this is under the category of status quo.

Jill: No, that last one is the third decision.

Robert: Oh, I apologize.

Jill: Because the third decision is when they’ve decided that they’re going to do something, and they’re looking at options.



Robert: Right. Now, that isn’t always the case, I’ve found, if you’ve got a great process, you provided the information, you have the right questions. Sometimes there isn’t another choice, but it depends on a lot of things.

Anything you can do to limit the choices and other options they look for?

Jill: No, because it’s either they feel comfortable that you’re the person, or they feel like they need to look around. I mean that’s really what it boils down to. And I’ve had many people, personally, eliminate the third decision entirely and choose to do work with me just like that.

It’s like you’re talking with them. They decide to go ahead. They wouldn’t even conceive of going anyplace else because they’ve invested all this time in you right now and bringing you up to speed.

And you’re the one who brought them ideas, and you’re the one who suggested that this might be a way for them to reduce their expenses or to speed up something. You’re the one who has brought them this, and so they have everything.

Robert: Also, the chances are these other info gurus are going to be selling the wrong way. They’re going to be doing all this other stuff that you’ve told us not to do, which is kind of obnoxious and is not so fun for the buyer, and they don’t ask any good questions, and they’re always talking about themselves, that kind of thing, right? So that makes the choice a little bit better for you, the trained info guru, the trained in selling and marketing info guru.



Jill: Absolutely. There’s a lot of info gurus who are really good, but ones who sell well will often omit that third stage entirely because the prospect cannot conceive of having to bring somebody up to where this person was. Except sometimes they have corporate policies that they must get three bids.

Robert: I understand. Now, there’s something else. I’d like to call you to task on something, Jill Konrath.

Jill: On, no!

Robert: Here’s another reason I believe people are selected is they have a solution or a package or an approach that is better and more comprehensive. I have this concept called the “HEOB,” high-end outcome-based programs.

We don’t just sell services by the hour. We sell results. We sell solutions. Now, that might be customized to some degree, but you’ve done that in your branding of selling to big companies and now SNAP selling. They’re not just buying a sales training course. They’re buying the SNAP Selling system, right? And that’s more real. It’s more tangible. I don’t know. It’s just more attractive.

So can you tell us a little bit about that and how you’ve thought about that? Of course, if you’re working with a company and they’ve already got premade products that they sell, but in terms of info gurus, marketing packages of services.

Jill: I’m not sure what you just asked me.

Robert: Well, let me ask it again. See, I’m asking you how important is the branding of your things through your



books? You had the branding, the differentiation, the packaging of your services. How much difference has that made to your clients?

Jill: Huge.

Robert: Tell us a bit about that. This is where I’m having huge breakthroughs myself, so really big breakthroughs.

Jill: Really?

Robert: Yeah. I sell a one-year program called the Marketing Mastery Program. And by packaging it like that, it’s a complete turnkey beginning to end support in growing your business $100,000 or more in a year. That’s what it’s about as opposed to. “Let’s do some marketing coaching.” It’s so intangible that it was hard to sell.

Jill: And you have to keep reselling it every month.

Robert: Right. I get all my clients in one month of the year, not that that’s true for everybody.

Jill: You asked me a couple different questions, and I’ll have to answer them separately. First of all, you asked about branding. How important is that? To me, that’s been invaluable. Now, I have never thought, by the way, about building a brand. I’ve just simply thought about how can I make it so that customers truly understand the value I bring, and I continually show them I have expertise. That’s one thing that you just said with brand.

And people go to my website. My most extensive website right now is www.SellingtoBigCompanies.com. They click on it and click on it, and they go, “Wow, she knows this.”



And then they also can make a determination regarding fit, personal fit for my style versus some other vendor’s style. I mean I am not the go out and make a million calls and play the Dialing for Dollars game. I don’t know how to say it. I like working with high integrity individuals, and there are some sales organizations that are real pushy, and they don’t fit well with me.

And they can tell that because I don’t talk about winning all the time.

Robert: It’s a different sales philosophy that you have. It’s more like mine. It’s more respectful and professional, all of that.

Jill: Right, which by the way, when I saw your stuff online, I went, “This guy’s like me,” and that’s why I hired you initially, what was it, seven, eight years ago?

Robert: Right.

Jill: I knew that we were singing from the same hymnal. But in terms of packaging, I think it’s easier to sell one big thing than many small things. I think it’s easier, though, if you’re doing consulting projects, to rather than sell a huge consulting project, to sell a decent size foot-in-the-door project to get started with as opposed to billing by hours. I never would bill by hours. What a deathly thing that is because the smarter you get, the less time it takes you to do your job.

Robert: The more you undermine yourself.

Jill: So, wow, that makes a lot of sense. Now you’re really a professional. It used to take eight hours. Now you’re down



to one hour, and you make less money. That doesn’t make sense to me.

Robert: And you can’t quintuple your hourly rate, but you can keep a program at the same price and do it faster, more efficiently.

Jill: Right. And to me, it’s much easier to sell programs than it is to sell hourly consulting just because it allows you to bring your expertise to the table, to not nickel and dime yourself, and think about am I getting screwed here, or did I give away half an hour? Now they’re asking for some changes, and it feels bad. So I do think that packaging things does make it easier.

Robert: And also, what you’re selling then is a solution, not a process or a service. Nobody wants to buy a service or a process. It’s like, “Well, what will that give me?” And the program’s attached to that solution. This is designed to help you get X, and then you throw everything in it that you need to throw in it in order to produce that result, and then you price it appropriately. So that’s great.

Jill: I think that’s smart marketing. You target a different market than I do, I mean in terms of you targeting info gurus, and my target market, I would much rather sell to a corporation, personally, than individuals, and that’s just because that’s my own personal background. And as such, I don’t offer that kind of program that you’re doing.

Robert: No, but most of my clients in my programs sell to corporations, but they package services just like you’re talking about.



Jill: Here’s an example of one thing I did with a huge contract that came my way, and it was somebody who contacted me. It was about four years ago, and they contacted me, and it was one of the big consulting firms out there.

And they had seen some work that I had done on an audio program that I had done. They had been on a telecast that I had given, and they wanted to talk with me about working with them on creating value propositions for their different practice areas.

And they had 11 different practice areas that they needed to fine-tune their marketing collateral with and get it really right-on and spot-on. And so they wanted a bid for the entire works, the whole shebang.

And I went, “Whoa, this is a huge opportunity!” It was a huge opportunity. It was a lot of money that could be there, but again, knowing that the more money that I proposed up front, the harder it would be to get them to say yes. You could propose $250,000 for the whole project perhaps, or you could propose a “let’s just get started” project.

And so I proposed that rather than bidding on all of them that I would bid first on the first three just to make sure we were on the same page and that what I bid was accurate and reflective, and it gave them what they wanted. And then after that, I would give them a bid for the remainder.

And so what happened then is I actually got to work almost immediately because they had budgetary approval for that figure, the three. So they got me working. I started getting in. I developed relationships with the people,



made sure that the first three things that I did with them were really, really good, and then the rest just exploded after that. I mean it was just like, yeah, come on in. I was already there.

But I didn’t go after the whole shebang at once because I know that sometimes the big decision is more risky. It takes longer to make. More people have to buy into it. And so I shot for getting my foot in the door right away.

Robert: That makes sense. My guess is, as well, when you did that, and you did a few of the smaller things, then you were better positioned to price and package the next step.

Jill: Right.

Robert: Because you were in the company, you knew what they were doing, how they worked. Sometimes people are asking for a proposal for something so big that we can’t know that they want to build the Queen Mary, and we’re talking about a rowboat, and we give them a bid for a rowboat, and they expect the Queen Mary. So you get yourself in trouble.

Jill: Sometimes we propose the Queen Mary, and they go, “Holy buckets, I had no idea it was going to cost this much. We can’t get that through this year.”

So get the rowboat going. I mean get that first project in there. Build the relationship. If you do a good job, they don’t want to switch because switching takes time and effort, and if they’ve already invested in you, for god sakes, they’re not going to go out and search around for somebody else if you do a reasonably good job.



Robert: Great. So you’ve given us a lot of things to think of. Any other thing that you really want to make a big point about in this call, selling to these crazy-busy customers?

Jill: Yeah. I’d really like to go back to where we started if I could. And where we started with these people is if they are in a crazy-busy work environment, they’re surrounded by chaos, they’re trying to do too much, their expectations are higher this year than they were last year, they’re under intense pressure.

I don’t think we think about that as often. We just think we need to get out and sell. And when we can actively position our stuff so that it appeals to somebody who’s like that, we have a really good chance of getting in and doing good work for them.

And so it really becomes something that we are in charge of, really stopping to think about how we can change our message so that it is aligned with what they’re going after, and that’s the A. It’s a priority for them right now. We show that we’re an invaluable resource, and we make it simple to understand. We don’t muck it up with everything.

And so the reality of it is it’s about them. It’s about making a difference for their business. It’s not about us at all, and we have to let go of that even though it’s our own company, and we dearly love it, and we’ve got our neck on the line. “Our whole future depends on them!” We really have to let go of that, and say, “No. In order to be most effective, I need to make sure that it makes a difference to them.”

Robert: So we start to serve people.



Jill: Well, let me just make a statement. I learned from a lady. She was a speaker, Vali. I can’t remember her last name. She said that the root word for sell is a Swedish word. I think it’s selvig, and it means “to serve.”

Robert: No kidding?

Jill: No kidding. So sales is actually from the word “to serve.” And most people, when they put on that stupid sales hat they turn into this clumsy used-car salesman or telemarketer that sounds horrid. But that’s not what sales is about. That’s the worst impression of sales that anybody could ever have.

The best impression is somebody who is confident that they can do good work and knows the difference it makes for their customer, and can clearly communicate that to this person in a way that’s easy to understand.

Robert: And the funny thing is if you approach it that way, it’s actually a lot easier, a lot less stress, a lot more fun. You’re listening a lot. You don’t have to talk as much. You do have to know what you’re doing and be intelligent and all of those basic foundations.

Jill: Most of the people that are part of your group are pretty smart, and they’re pretty good at what they do, so wouldn’t it make sense that they would transition to this way and take off that stupid sales hat and become a real person again?

Robert: Well, there’s one other thing that I’m sure you could comment on. One is putting on the sales hat. The other is “Selling is beneath me.” “They should know what I do anyway.”



Jill: Yeah, just like I know that my husband should read my mind all the time, too, right?

Robert: Yes.

Jill: He fails miserably.

Robert: Well, basically, people back away from selling entirely. They back away from the conversation. One reason is because they feel, “Well, the only way to do it is this obnoxious way. That’s not me.”

And so it’s important to see that this other alternative really can be one of the most fun parts of being in business, having these initial conversations, these explorations, whatever you call them, these selling conversations. But it’s just a completely different paradigm than what we think.

Just the word “sell” is kind of a dangerous word unfortunately because we attach it to pressure, manipulation, greed and selfishness, and all these terrible things. So we actually need a different word completely for selling, but that isn’t going to happen. So for now, we’ll just call it SNAP selling.

Jill: That sounds good to me. And seriously, SNAP selling, its origins were that people were making snap decisions all the time, snap, snap, snap. Am I going to listen to her or not? Snap. That’s how it came about. It evolved into an acronym of the four key things that you need to remember in order to be successful in this business today.

And truthfully, I don’t write. I mean if you read my stuff, you would not think it was sleazy at all. It’s all about how



to be a good businessperson and let people know that they could benefit from your service.

And I truly believe that we have an obligation to let people know. If we’re good at something, and we can really help their business, we have an obligation to.

I mean, I wrote Selling to Big Companies, and I wrote SNAP Selling because I discovered things that were really important. It is my job, once I discovered that, to share it with the world. Otherwise, it won’t make a difference.

I mean, I can sit and be silly-happy that I know how to get into big companies. It doesn’t help anybody. And the same thing with SNAP selling.

Robert: It would be a gift un-given. And that’s really a great thing that we have as info gurus. We have so much value to give, such a difference, such a potential transformation of companies, but you can’t hide. You’ve got to play the game and play it intelligently.

So what I want to recommend everyone do is get Jill’s book. Check it out. It doesn’t cost too much. Very small investment compared to struggling with selling.

Jill is one of the few people I really recommend in this area just because she’s got the same philosophy as me, and it’s a philosophy that works, and it’s a philosophy that’s respectful.

But there’s all kinds of nifty little techniques and ideas and scripting and all that stuff that’s so useful as well. So it’s not just airy-fairy stuff. It really is down-to-earth real stuff that works.



The website is www.SnapSelling.com. We’ll put a link to that with the interview. And with that, Jill, again, thank you very much. This was fun and really, really useful. I appreciate it.

Jill: Thanks for having me, Robert. It was fun to talk about this topic. It is something I really enjoy.

Robert: Great. Thanks again.

Jill: Thank you.

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