province of newfoundland fortieth general assembly · volume xl tuesday province of newfoundland...
TRANSCRIPT
Volume XL
Tuesday
Province of Newfoundland
FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF
NEWFOUNDLAND
Fourth Session
VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard)
Speaker: Honourable P.]. McNicholas
Number 46
31 May _l988
I
The House met at 2:00p.m.
MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): OrdE~r, p1E:1ase!
Before. calllng for Statements by Ministers, I promised last week thRt I IAJould look ·:into the po'i.nt of order raised by the hon. membE!r for Fogo, and I haVE! dom1 so. I am not satisfied with the research that has been done so far. None of us ar·e satisfied with it. So I am having that matter explored further today, and I hope to have an answer to that matter tomorrow.
I j IJSt want to take this opportunity to say to the House that I attended a rneet.:i.ng in Ottawa yesterday at the invitation of the Speaker of the House of Commons. · Speaker·s from all across C ~~ n c\ d a a t: i: e n d c:! d a n d <:-J.l s o f e c:l e r· d 1 a11d provincial mE!rnbers, including the han. metnber for· ~3t. Hc:n·be (Mr·. Furey). Also present were rt::1pr't::1SC:!ITtatives of muni.c.Lpdl:i.I:·Les from across Canada.
It t.uas the Pa1"1iarnentary Forum on the Status of 0isabled Persons.
It was a really worthwhile meeting. The par·U.cipants v.Jere experts in many fiE!J.ds assoc-iated with the handicapped e-du ca t.ion, business, transportation, govE!rnrrtE!nt and many other· fields, plus handicappE!d people thE:1mselves who were very vocal and knowledgeable in the def'i.ciencies ·that exist.
We lTlE!t at 7: 30 in the mor·ning and the mE!E!ting went on a11 day. The message I got was that handicapped pE!OplE! lAJBr'E! at thE! J.OlAJE!r E!rld of the economic scale because of a lotAJE:1l" leve1 of E1ducat:.ion and th<,' fa u 1 t For· t h 'is t~.Ja s our· s , t h <:;t L tAle are not educating our young handicapped lo their full
L2468 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
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potential, either because' thE! fa c :L J. :l U . 0 s ar0 not UH:!re or· they are not sufficientJ.y · ac -c€,ssib1.E! -because of dif·flcult:ie:1s Ln gc~!t.t.J.ng
into buildings, getting proper transport and getting sufficient help.
We v.JerE! 1E!ft with no doubt that the liv'i.ng expenses of the handicapped WE1re higher br:,cause' of their handicap, that they t.uere likE!' you and me except for thEdr handicap which, 'in some cases, can happen to any of us at any time.
~e heard from many well-informed handicapped people on the panel; for example, one, a lawyer from Toronto completely bl:ind, but he got a J at.u dE!greE! from Harvard and Osgoode Hall although he was blind beforehand, and another, a ChE!i"okec~ Incltan lady ·.in a wheelchair, who is l.:hE~
adrn-inistrator of c\ hosp·i.tal.. We were entertained at thE! arts c c,HJ l r e i: h 1'::1 n i g h t be f o r· E! a t:. a. g i.d a performance and most of the entert.alne1ns .... comedians, stngers, musicians were handicapped aJ.J. profoss ·Lonals t.uho can more than compete with anyone. LastJ.y, we had a really moving address at lunch time yesterday from Rick H a n s e n IAJ h o s p o k c,1 l: o u s a b o u t. h i s journey around the wor1d in a vJ he e 1 c h a i r· .
It was a really rewarding meeting.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Statements by Ministers
Ml~. MATTHE_WS: Mr·. Speaker.
MR . SPEAKER: ThE~ 11on. Uw M:i.n.i.stcH' of CareE!r
No. 46 R2468
Development and Advanced Studies.
MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
Today I am announcing the approval of 311 projects undE!r the Government's Private Sector EruploymE!nt Programme. TheSE! p r· o j I':' c t s , 1"1 r· . S p e a I< E! r , "i. n v o 1 v e a provincial contribution of $1,688,167 employing 516 regular employees and an additional $267,406 employing 207 students.
M r· . ~3 pea !< e r , t he l·: o l: a 1 f u n d s allocated to date, under The Private Sector Employment Pt,.ogramme, amount to approximately $4.6 million. Through th·is funding 1,769 jobs have been c rea tc;!d, 403 of which at"e s tl.1dent positions.
1'1r. Speaker, the responsE! to this programme has been excellE!tlt. My department has received numerous applications both form businesses tAJho participated in the programme last year . as well as new businesses wishing to take part in this 50 per - cent wage subsidy programme.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hc,~ar I hE!al"!
MR. DECKER: Mr . Speaker .
Ml~. SPEAKER : The,~ hon. the TTIE!TnbE!r for the St.rai t of Bc;!llo Isle.
MR. DECKER: Mr. ~3pc-:~c:ilkE!r I dgr.d.n t.IH! rn:in.i.ster· ts announcing his govc-:~r·nrnc:!l'lt' s anstAJer· to (:.his u.Jr·c-:~cked econotny, thts economy which they have brought to i t s k n E! c-:~ s . T h i s j. s l.: h E~ "i. r· a n s IAJ Cc! r to it. They only have 28,000 moi,.E! jobs to go and then they will have accomplished it.
L2469 May 31, 1988 Uol XL
MR. SIMMS: What is your answer to it?
MR. DECKER: Mr. Spe!aker, as I understand this programme -
MR. BARREfT: You do not understand it at all.
MR. DECKER: the money is supposed to be
made· available to cornpaniE!S to ~~ m p 1 o y p e o p l E~ o IJE:~ r· a n d a b o v e w h a t: they would normally employ. I look at·. Mount Pear·l. Confect"i.onE!ry, Mt~. Speaker, which has bE!E!l'l giVE!l'l 1'7 people. To me, that SI':H,!ITIS to be a lot of peoplE! for Mount PE!arl Confc~c 17.-.ionery -
MR . BARRETT : You do not know what you are doing.
MR. DECKER: -so I wonder if thE!Y ar'E! surpJ.us to what they would normally hire.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. DECKER: company out. .in I look at the
Gander, which carne up in last week's statement, Weston's Confectionery, who hired 25 people, Mr. Speaker.
AN HON. MEMBER: (ll.J. i'H~IAJ p e 0 p J. e .
MR. DECKER: Al-l. l'lBIAJ jobs, Ml". ~3per:'.tkE!r 1 wh.ich is not over and above the -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: H~~ar· I hear!
MR. DECKER: I wish those silly interruptions
No. 46 R2469
were not deducted from my time, Mr. Speaker.
The Mo-t6r Mort.ior, Mr. Speaker, down in the Minister of Social S~1rvices 1 d"istr·lct (Mr. Tobin), have taken on ten people.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: HeRr, hear!
MR. DECKER: Now, has that motel increased in size to the extent that they hi~ve
t.o take on ten E!Xtra people, Mr. Speaker?
SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order I pleaSE!!
The han. member 1 s time is elapsed.
MR. DF.:CKER: Thank you I Mr. Speaker. They cannot take the hoRt, can they?
AN l-ION. MF.MBER: And you cannot tc:~!<e the jobs.
MR . SIMMS : No r t h e ~H~ a t. .
MR. LONG : Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the mernbe!r for St:. John 1 s East.
MR. LONG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .
We also thank the minister for his running updah1 on Lh(;! progr•(;!SS of the pro j e c t . I u..Jo u J. d j us t . as k if at somE! point. in the nE!Xt. coupJ.~:!
of w~:!E!ks thE! min:l~i:E!r could carnE! in with some kind of status r e port in terms of the kinds of jobs, some of the questions we have
L2470 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
addressed in response to the statements, kinds of training e 1 em e n t s , k i n d s of" · s t u d e ·n t -posil:.ions; just br·:lng fortAJi:,rd somE! more information than the Table has pr·ov:ided. f'll though I do appreciate the minister 1 s efforts in g:iving us continuous i n f o r m a t i o n b y t h ~:! s e t a b J. E! s , IAJ e have mc:~ny rnore CJIH!SLions and IAII'! would like it if the minister could give us a more comprehensive upda·te within thE! next couple of weeks. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the of Tr·ansportation.
MR. DOYLE: M r . S pea I< (;! t' , T a rn p 1 E! a s e d t o announCE! to the hon. Hcli~SE! -todc~Y
an addil:ional list o f projects valued at $11.9 miJ.lion dollars to be publicly tendered -·
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hoar, hear!
MR . DINN: Whi:it a man, $11.9 million!
MR. DOYLE: by rn y de par l: m<~Hll: o v ~:! r· t h ~'! 1'1 E! x t:
few weeks for highway pav":i.ng and improvements. Mr. Speaker, the s e transportation improvement projects will be carried out: during thE! 1988 const.:l"uction season. They u..ri.11 bE! funded entirely by thE! ProvinCE! under my department 1 s r·oad and bridge~
rehabilitation, improvement progr·arnm~~.
T h e p r o j e c 1.: s t. o b E! {: C'! n d E! r (~~ cl a r e a s foJ.lotJJs:
Baie VE!rtE! - White Bay : Paving 4-ldlornetr·E!!> of Westport r·oad dnd 4
No. 46 R2470
kilometres of Burlington road.
Bellevue: Continuation of paving between -long Cove and Thornlea; paving approximately 3 kilometres of Route 204- from Little. Hearts Ease to Southport.
Bonavista kjlometre road.
North: Upgrading 2 SE!ction of Greenspond
Burgeo-Bay 0 1 Espoir: Upgrading of walkways through the Town of McCallum.
Burin ·Placentia West: Paving S. 1 kilometres of Route 221-15 from Salmonler to Mortier; paving approximately 3 kilometres of the Salt Pond to Wintorland road and 1 kilometre of local road in Jean d 1 Baie.
Carbonear: Paving approximately 5.3 kilometres of roads in the communities of Lower Island Cove, Gull Island, Northern Bay, Ochre Pit Cove, Western Bay and Kingston.
Conception Bay South: Four-laning of Topsail Road from Donovans Overpass towards Paradise.
Grand Bank: Resurfacing of approximately .8 kilometres ·of Rou ·te 210 betl.veen Grand Bank and For·tune and from end of prE!vjous resurfacing near Fortune towards Point May.
llat·bour Grac e:1; Rcsurf.-actng o·F 1.. 6 k~lometres of Bryants Cove road and 2.0 kilometres of Cranes road, Upper Island Cove and miscellaneous resurfacing on Bishops Cove Road.
Humber Ei:l~; l: Upgi"ad.i.ng and pc1uinq of MasSE!Y Dr'i.VE!.
L,aPoile: approximatE!ly 8
Resurfacing kilometrE!S of·
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Route 70 from ·the end of present Blanche Diamond
resurfacing near Rose towards Burnt Islands and Cove R"oad.
Lewis porte: Complete paving of Norris Arm North Access road approximately 5.5 kilometres.
Mt. Scio-BE!lJ. Island: Resur·fad.ng 3.4- kilometres of Davidson Avenue, Ten Commandments Range, No. 2 road and Memorial Drive on Bell IsJ.and.
1\Jas kaup i.: grading l::lo twoe n Falls.
Repi:J.:irs t.o lJJa shouts and FrE!E!dom road and Chur·chill
of the Goose llc\Y
Placentia: a p pin ox ·.i. md tel. y the Access Ht-lrbour fr--om and paving k.i.lornr:1l:r'E!S o+=-
Resurfacing 5 . l ld lomr:1trE!S of road to Southern t:hE! TCH; upgradi.nq
approximately 3 Fa :i. r· h i)l v E! n r· o ad .
St. George 1 s: Resurfacing approximatE!J.y 4-.3 kilometres of R o u ·t e 4-0 7 i n t he Cod r o y a r r:1 a ; resurfacing approximately 2.0 kilometres of Route 405-11 from the end of prr:1sent resurfac:i.ng near St. Fintan 1 s totJJards Sl:. David 1 s; resurfacing approxirnateJy 2.0 kilometres of Route 461 through Barachois Brook and Resurfacing 4- . 2 kilometres St. Theresa 1 s and 0. 8 kiJ.ornetres FL~t
Bay Roads.
Terra Nova: Paving fl .. 7 kiJ.ornEd::r·es of road From Bunyan 1 s Cove towards Musgravetown, paving 9.5 k'.i.lornotrr:.1S o·f rodcl fr·orn l_c;!"l:.hbr·.iclgc:! to Jamestown and 1.4- kilometres of C i:\ n n "i. n g s C o v c~ R o i'H~ ; p i)l v :i. n g 2 . 5 kilometres of road from Traytown to Cu11 1 s Har·bour.
Trn:i.nity --Bay dE! Vr:1rde: Upgr•acUng and paving of approximately 3.8 kilometres of Route 80 from Hant 1 s Harbour toward New Chelsea and
No. 4-6 R24-71
••. •~r 'l',.. • .,..ft: ! .-J.~~- ~ ,. J.. .__~ :_:_:_.. ..... -·· •la. ~-·---~·.! . ._._::. __ . __ .. .Jj~ .:-·.---------~---· _-_._~_.:._-
upgrading three local roads.
T r i n i t. y N q_r t h : of road from Trouty.
P a v i n g 5 k i 1 orne l:. r e s Bonaventure towards
Mr. Spoc:<~I<Gr', 'l:.he above muned pt"oj ect-.s 1neprc-:1sent approximately 30 per cent of my departmont 1 s ptnovincially funded roads programmE:1. Thi.s, combirHH~ 1.u:i lh my earlier statement to the House, 1.u i 11 r· H s 1~ ll -.i n r:1 x p e n d i. t l~ r e s o r· some $26.25 million which represent approximately 65 per cent of our $40 million roads programme.
Mr. Speaker, the process of tendering transportation construction projects as early as possible has worked very well, resulting in most projects being completed within the construction season. This prOCE!dUrE! permits the construction industry lead time to make plans for the upcoming construction season.
I would llke _ to remind the hon. House t h a ·t i-t is mo s -1: d iff i c u 1 t to add r e s s R 11 of o u r· l:: ran s p o r t R U. o n requirements on an immediate bas i s , b ~~ t I 1- e e 1 m 1.1 c h p r o g r e ~> s is being made. Many significant impro,;emE!nl:s hi.'IV<,1 boon mad(:' to the ttnanspor·tation infrastructurE! in practically every region of Newfoundland and Labrador.
The $11.9 million in irnpr·overn€:!nt projects I have announced today combined with my earlier announcr:Hn€Hlt of $14.3 million and the $29.4 million worth of projE!Cts announCE!d under the federal/provincial ERDA agreement will address several of the problem areas in the Province 1 s transportation network. These construction projects will allow us to con-tinue thE! stc,1ady ptnogr(;!SS we have madE! in creating a safer
L2472 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
and a more transportation Prou i.nce.
eFf·lciE:1n-t system
hi g I'HJ.Ja y in the
Mr. ~3por.1.!<(:1r, nex-t IAJ(:H~k IAJ(:! IAJ.i.ll bE! announcing some additional pr•oj(:1C'ls t.uhich tAd.ll bo -the;! final amount of the $40 million package.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: 11c,1ar, hc~r.lr!
MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker.
MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The minister, by reading out the statemc-:lnt, once agi:lin confirmed what the Auditor GE!I'IE!ral said in.it.ially, ·that the depi.~rt.rn(Hlt did not have any guidelines or procedures in place for dispensing this $40 rniJ.lion govet"nlTIE!n-1-: spends r:wc-:1ry yec.-1r. Jus l:: to give you a little examplE!: I thJnk a very qu lei< random count said thE.H'e l.J..H:!rE! 89 kilometres of road in total in Lhl.s out of t.uh:ich 7. 4 !dlornE!tr·es are in Li.beral districts. So there would seem to be something a little bit out of whack with ·the OlJC:1ral.l agreement as far as roads are concerned in this Province.
I can assure you thE!rE! <:-:tr'e roads in Liberal districls as much in need of paving as those in qover·nrnE!I'lt: d.ist.ricts, but it just does not seen to be done that t.uay. I haVE:1 poinb;!d out ft~om tJ.m1?. to time in this House what the siLuation is, and it is a situation I think the people of Newfoundland are aware of. They know they cannot be bought with this SOI"t of bribE:1, lAJ-.ith t·:h·.is sor·t of operation that is going on here. It -.is a dtsgrace to have to stand up and taJ.k about -\:his and say this Lo the people of Newfoundland who are subjected to -
No. 4-6 R2472
this form of government. To me it is ridiculous that we have a programme handled this way.
We are looking forward to the other $11 million the minister v.Ji 11 no do u b t an no u n c e wi t hi n t h e next few days, and I would imagine tha-t. it tAlill have the same SE!nse of fairness to it that the other two announcements he made had.
Mr. Speaker, i1: is ridiculous to think that they would have the face to stand in this H01..1se and say they are treating the people of Newfoundland equally; the tax dollars being collected in Newfoundland are certainly not distributed on a fair and equal basis.
MR. FENWICK : Ml". ~1peaker· .
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek .
MR. FENWICK: We would appreciate in future if the Minister of Transportation would remember us when he is handing out Ministerial Statements; we just managed to get a copy when it was being generally deliver·ed.
We really do not have any comments to make, bl'::~causc,~ tAJe IAJOl~ld lik(! t:o see 100 pE!r CE!nt of the allocations before t~JI'::1 make any judgements on i ·t. Of course, if it is consistent with what has bt::1en donr:1 in previous years, it is usually badly bi.as(~d anytAJay. But we will wait until we see the total allocations before wo make any j udgemE!nts on i {:.
MR. BUrT: ·Ml"-. -Spt::1al<er .
MR. SPEAKER:
L2473 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
The hen. the Minister Recreation and Youth.
of Culture,
MR. BUTT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .
As Minister responsible for Amateur Sport, it is my great plr:1asurE! to 1'::1Xtend congratulations on behalf of the government and people of Newfoundland and Labrador to Mrs. Barbara Ryan of Manuels, Conception Bay South, a gracious lady and a superb volunteer, the new President of the Canadian Figure Skating Association.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. BUTT: A dear fr·iend of mine, I might add. Bar·bara was electE!d to the pos·i.tion by accl.arnat.:i.on Rl: t:he Association 1 s annual mE!Ed:tng "in Pent.ici.:on, Br:i-L"ish Columbia, r'lay 28, 1988.
Barbara is the first Netl.lfoundli:~nder t.o occupy the Presidency of thE! Canadian Figur'E! Skating Association.
Her background in the sport is long and irnprE!SSiVE!, fl"OHl hE!!'" involvement with the Prince of Wales FigurE! Skating CJ.ub in S·t. John 1 s to her position as team leade!r of the Canadian Figul~E!
Skating contingc,1nt at thc,1 1988 WorJ.d Championships in Budapest, Hungary. Bai"bar'i:l has fiqul"(:!d in numerous provincial, national and :i.n c(~r·nc:lttonr.tl. fiquJ"e s kat:ing eVE!nts, including thE! 1984- WoJ"]d W:inl:. c~r Olyrnp.i.cs in Sr:u·ajeliO, Yugoslavia and always at the IJOlunl.oor lE!VGJ..
Mr·. SpE!akE!r', ht::1r goals cH'C~!
I.Ar.it:h voluntc-:"!C~I"S c:lnd st.-.i:'IFf" Association to make figure
No. 4-6
l::o wor·k of t:he
s k.a ti ng
R2473
Canada•s premier recreation atlethic activity, to contimte to attract volunteers to see the c r c,1 a ·t. ion - -· -o f a N a ·1: ion a 1 Figure Skating Museum. I have no doubt thai: Barbara Ryan tJJi 11 s 1.1 c c eed i. n accomplishing her objectives.
narbara Ryan is to be commended f o r ~H::1 r o 1.1 t.: s 1.: a n d i. n g accompljshments over the years, and hc-:!r election to the Presidency of the Canadian Figure Skating Association tAii.ll, t~ndoubl:E:1dly,
have a positive impact on figure skating in our Prouinco, Mr. Speaker, and, indeed, our entire coun·try.
I arn sure all hon. membEH'S of the House will join with me in a joint message of congratulations to be sent to Barbara Ryan, President of the Canadian Amateur Figure Skating Association. Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. HISCOCK: Mr . Speaker.
r"'R. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Eagle Ri1Jc,1r.
MR. HISCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .
We, on this side of the House, IJJO U 1 d 1 i I< e t 0 j 0 in IAJi t h the government in congratulating Barbar·a Ryan of Manue,ls on being
·! E:1lected, by acclamation, Preside,nt of the Canadian Figure Skating Association. The President, Bat"bar·a Ryan, has done a lot: in thE! ProuincE:1 already, as IAJas pointed out, and I am sure she t~Jill continue' to contribuh1 on a national basts.
The member for Stephenville (Mr.
L2'~74 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
K. Aylward) informs me that Dwayne Power, of Stephenville, is now training with the national - figu·re -s k aU. n g t e am be c au s e of t hE! m a n y volunteers like Barbara Ryan, I arn sur·e. Figure skHt.lng is a gr'E!i:~t
expense to parents I might say to th-Ls hon. llou~;e. On behi.'llf of thE:1 volunteers and thE! pE!opJ.~;, of this Pr'O'J -Lnce, IAJE! do congr'i:ltu1ato hEll". We are not surprised that NewfoundlNnders and Labradorians ris~ to this status in Canada, and IAJe lool< for'1.1.1ard to s~H-dng young men and women achieve national standard and then go on to the cilyrnpics. We ask that gouernrnE!nt continue to support them financially as well as rnoralJ.y help:ing them, not only in figure skating but in other amateur sports in this Province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. John • s East.
MR. LONG: The minister is right. We are pleased to join all hon. rnmnbers, all part·ios together, to send a message of congratuJ.ations.
MR. SPEAKER: At this stage I wouJ.d like to lAJ(o1l C Olrl(:~ +:. 0 1: h (:~ 9 a J.J. 0 r• ··.i E! S l:IAJ('! 1 U E! students from Grade V to LE!VE!l I IAJi.+.:h thc~ :ir t(~e1chc,1rs, Judy and Kenneth DtAJyer, from the aJ.J gradE! school in Grand Bruit.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Oral Questions
MR. WELLS:
No. 46 R2474
Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon: - the of the Opposition.
MR. WELLS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. the like the
Speaker, my question is for han. the Premier. I would to ask him if he would advise House whether or not the
government is considering conducting a plebiscite in this Province as to the acceptability of the government 1 s proposal for the dis continuance of tho r a i liJ..Ja y in Newfoundland?
MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier .
PREMIER PFCKFORD: Mr. Spc-:~i:'l k er~iie cll'l SIAJOr J. ~) no .
MR. WELI..S: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKF.R: A supph~mentaTy, l:he bon . the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. WELLS: Has the government had any discussions with the federal government about the conduct of such a plebiscite or the terms and conditions under wh:i ch thE! railtAJay mi~ht be discontinued?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ·the PrE:HniE!r .
PREMIER PECKFORD: cThe answer to the first par·t of thE~ ques t:i.on is no. I do not !<not.~1
about the~! othE!Y' discussions IAJE! hi:\cl. ~~C! l:al.kr,~d yer:·\rs dqo abo11t: the~! IAihOl.lO! quc-:~stion or thE! TE!rrns of u n .i. on or tJ.Jh E:! r· e t hi'\ t F .i t.: -t: E~ cl t n L o the sittHl.tion, but OlH' lc~~gal
advisors and others,
L2475 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
constitutional advisors, tell us t hal tAJO do not h t'l v e a lH:~ r y strong constitutional or legal position t.~s :ii: rE!lal:es t o J.l., as a r·esuJ.t of the Terms of Union tJ.Jhich onJ.y scdd that CN at the ti1ne:~ wou1d take over thE! railway, and did not say anything about. l'lOIAI long thE'y wo u 1 d havE! to rna :i. n t a in j -t:. . Of course, Tt~n·a Nova TE!l is in the same boat.
MR. -BAKER: Mr. Speaker .
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Gander .
MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .
A question to the Premier: For months nOIAJ the Pr,~ rni.c:!r' has bE:!C:ln 1: he so 1 E! spokesman for· t h E:• S p r· lHl ~J
'd r· o c~ n h o u ~; e , 1:-\11 inFo r· rna t:. ion an cl disinformation that has carne out abo u t '1: hi s pro j E:~ c 1:. . H E:! h a s b E:! e n the cucumber supersalE!Sman, no doub ·t about: it. . YestE!rday tAle witnessed the embarrassing spectacle of the Premier running for cover, rE!fusing to anstAJer qur:1stions ··
MR. SPEAKER: Or·dE!r, p1E!ase!
The hon. member should pose his qUE!Stion.
MR. BAKER: YE:~s, Mr. Spc-:~akc-:~r. I undE!r's tand. I am laying a good groundwork here.
Would the Prerni.er -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: You ar·e out of (;rdE!r!
~lL __ §PEAKER : Or·cler·, p1E~ase!
MR. BAKER:
No. 46 R247 5
·rhank you, Mr. Speaker .
Is the Premier trying to disassocicite and distance himself from this project because he realizes what an unmitigated pol"i.tical disast:er it has becorn<ol, o1n can he not:. take thE! heat any more?
MR. SPEAKEr~ :
The hon. t:he Pr~:mlier .
PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the qu(:~stion is, y<'JS, heat s OITJ(:~ more.
answer to that I can take Lhe
MR. BAKER: Mr . Speaker.
MR . SPEAKER: A supplementary .
MR. BAKER: Does thE! Premier reaJ.ize thE! fact that since IJJe are a 50 per· cent owner in the project, his rE!fusal to answer ques lions shows complete disdain for this House? Does he reaJ.iZE! that ··.noiAJ is the tirne to tell the fruth about this project? When is he going to answer some questions?
MR . SPEAKFR: ThG hon. the Premi c~r .
PREMIER PECKFORD: There i:l r C! t:IAJO or L h r <:~ c~ 411 o s t~ .i. on !> 'the1nE:1. One is no, another is rnayb(:~, iHld t .he thoi.rd iHlSIAier· "is '"''e support research, development and "innovation in our Provi.nce dnd 1.1lill continUE! to do so.
MR. BAKER : Mr·. Speake1n.
Mf~ . SPEAI<ER: A final supplementary .
MR. BAKER:
L2476 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
Will the Premier undertake to have answers provided to this list of u ery importan 1: questions which · I -now table?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Table Clyde's salary!
MR . SPEAKER : The han. the JTI(:1fTiber for BurgE!O -/3i:"1y d' F.spoJr.
MR . -GILBERT: M r . S p o i.'\ k e r· , I h R lJ e a cpH~ s L i o n f o r· the Minister of Transportation ( Mr· . Do y 1 e) . :r 1.110 nd e r :l s the minister awa1ne that thE! Rarn<ola, Burgcw, Grey RiVC:!In FE!r·r·y Commission has lost its threE! members from the Ramea area?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. th~~ Minister of Transportation.
MR. DOYLE: Yes, Mr. Speak(:~r. I IAJas rnadE! · aware of that just a couple of days ago, as a matter of fact, when a letter came to my office advising that the fe:H·r·y cornrnit.h:1e had resigneld. We had not rE!CE:'ived c.~ n y p r· i or· no t i c (:1 from t he committee that they had intended i"". o d o t h :i. s , b u t 1.11 E:1 d i d r· e c c:! :i v E:1 1:1
letter a coupJ.E! of days a~JO
:i.nfor·m:i.ng us of LhHt rrtOVE!.
MR. GILBERT : ~ supp1omont.ary, Mr. Speaker .
MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the ITIE!rrtber· for· Bur•gE!O f:l (:\ y d I E :; p () "."i. i" .
MR. GILBERT: lt. i s i:\11 members to rn :ln·ist·.er· knOIAJ i:hr·ee membe:~r·s
MR. SPEAKER: ----·----. The hon.
No. 46
lJery tAH~ll for· the thE!
thes r:! J.augh! Does
I."Jhclt Ci:'lUSE!d to resign?
M:i rl"i s t CH' of
R2476
TransportRtion.
. f"'R. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, the committee outlined personal reasons For tendering ·t.heir resignation. They f e 1 i: that t:.he y did not I.!JR nt to continue tn that capacity r~nymor·e. I instructed my off i cials to contact them a couple of days ago, and to ask thE!m to come in for a meeting. I think that is in progress, Mr. Speaker.
MR. GILBERT: A final supplementary.
MR. SPEAI<ER: ~final supplementary.
MR. GILBERT: Wh<:'lt doE:1S the minister do to r'<"!plc\CE:1 thos(,1 rn E:1 rn b e r ~; 1.~1 h o h l·\ 'J e r·esignE:1d?
MR. SPEAKER : The han. the MinistE:1r of Trd n s po rtc\ t:i. on.
MR. DOYLE: Mr·. Speaker, this is a ferry comrnitt~~e thc'\t - IAJas put in plc:\ce Lo monitor the activities of the transportation system in the area. I would assume that the cornrnuni.ty u.d.11 ·L-. r~ke sb:!ps to put in place another ferry committee to do what tho previous cornmitt:.E!E:1 had been doing, and hopefully that !)Jill be donE!.
MR. LUSH: Mr·. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKEr~: ·ThE:1 hoM.-thE! mE!rnbe:1r fo1" Bonavista North.
SOME IWN. MEMBERS : Hear· , hear!
Ml~. LUSH: I-l: i·l<:-uil(--hon. ITI(·:Hnl:)(:!rs, Ml". Speaker ..
L2477 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
PREMIF.R PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker .
MR. SPEAKER: Orcl~~r. pleasc,1!
() point . of ordE:1r, l:hE! hon. t.hE! Premier.
PREMIER PECKFORD : We would just like it acknowledged that our pressure on the Leader of the Opposition has made it possible for the member for BonRvista North to gE!t a qUE!Stion tn.
SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!
Mr~. SPEAKER : There is no point of order.
The hon. the mE!rnbE!r for· Bonav:i~;t.a
Nor·+:h.
MR. LUSH: Mr·. Spoi:\kel", my gu~:!!>-1:'.-.ion ts For· the Minister of Municipal Affaii"S (Mr. BrGI:: i:) . Tl: is promplE!d by the smattering of announcements we haue been hearing in the last couple of days, re: capital IAIOrks projects for municipalities throughout ·the ProvinCE!, t.hE! latest one being an announcement today by the rnE!dia of $3 mt11ion, one-eighth oF t.he budgE!t, for· t:he town of Conception Bay South.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, h(,1ar!
MR. LUSH: My ques t:ion, t.l·1erE:1·fo1"e, to thE! rninistE!r Js: Can he indicate to t.:his Hous~: ! and t·.o l.:h(,1 publ"ic of Newfoundland what is the status of t.:he cap"i.td1 IAlor·ks pi"OjE:!cl'.s of h:is department? What is the pre s ent stc\t.us? 1· 1<:-\V(~ rn<,1irlbCo:!Y's oppo t; Jt:E! being notified? Are they pub1ic for them and not public for t.:he
No. 46 R24.77
-w::-.6_.,.. ...... ""' -.._ • •• __. .. _____ ... _ - - ... -- -- - .~.... ..--· ·- ... -~- --.-... --·~--.--· ·~·· ·--·-·
rest of Province?
MR. SPEAKER:
the people of this
The hon. the MinistE!r' of Municipal Affairs.
MR. BRETT : Mr. Speak~~r, l::he capital IAJOI"ks
projects for the department will bc-:1 tabled on rhursday or Fr-:i.de1y, and hon. members on both sides of the House wi l.l be no ·t-i.f:i.ed, and auerybody else will be notified by that t"i.me.
MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. the member for Bonauista North.
MR. LUSH : Mr. Speaker, my supplementary to the minister is this: Is h~1 not allowing his authority to be eroded by allowing Cabinet ministers and backbenchers to announce outside of this House, ·thus doing a · great dis courtesy to the members of this Hous~1 and a great discourtesy to the public of this Province? Would he not admit that his authority and influence are being eroded?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the MinistE!r of Municipal Affcdi"S ,
Ml~. BRETT : No , M I" . S p r:1 a k e r· . T 1·1 e a n s we r· i s no .
MR. FENWICK: Ml" . Speakc-:H'.
Ml~. SPFAKEI~:
ThE! hon. t.:hc;! ITIE!rnbel" for· Ml;!nihek .
MR. FENWICK : Mr. Speaker, U1 E! M i n 'i s tC::H'
my of
question is F 'is I'HH'i E! s
for (Mr.
L2478 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
Rideout). It has to do udth comments made by the Chairman of FPI yesterday when he· indicat-ed -that FPI was expanding into the Norti'H:1rn Pacific to catch Alaskan pollack and going into the Gulf of Mexico and the Mississ'ippi Delta in order to expand its fishing E~ ntor·pr·isE!S .
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, plr:1c\s~:!!
MR. FENWICK : My q 1.1 <~ s t i . o n , M i" . S p C:h-l k o r , J. s : Since we now have three or four of o L1 r 0 I.AJ n p 1 ill'l t S LLJ lri. c h F P I S 1 0 u g h E! d off several YE!ars ago, dE:1spite our o b j o c i: t o n s , g o 'i. n g b r:1 q g 'i n g , IAJ h i~ t plans does the minister have to rn f.\ k e s u r· E:! t: h a t F P I , I.AJ h i c h IAJ a s hE!aviJ.y subsidiZE!d in thE! past by our efforts and by our funds, clean up the mE!SS they crE!ated in our own Province before they go trying to set up new centers to make profits udth tiH1 monE!Y they have already made in this Province?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fishc,1ries .
MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, that is about IAJha t;
t:he YOU IAJOI.Il.d C:!XflC:1Ct fr·orn SociaJ.:ists --·
SOME HON. MEMBERS : lloi.·lr, hear!
MH. RIDEOUT : 1.uho L\Jf.l n l:. to ITii:l k (:1
no sure, Ml".
SpeakE:H', IAJ h f.l L <~ v o r' magnitudE!, Prov-:i.nce. phtJ.osophy,
that i l s s:iz<;!, sur·v:ives ever· ·rhd 1:. is the Ml" . SpE:1a k E:H'.
Nou.J, Mr. Speaker·, let TnE! to ti'H;! hon. gc,1ntlernr:1n
No. 46
businE!SS, or any in thi s
~::; () c :i f.l 1 ·i s t:.
also that
say t: hE!
R2478
expansion of FPI into ~laskr.1n
pollack, or other fisheries of the tJJorld, Mr. Speaker, has nothing t.o do with a-- -plant in St. Lawrence or a p l i.'\ n i.: J n P o r t i:Ht x B a s q u o s . Nothing! Absolutely nothing! That is new fishcr1es, new development of underutilized speci.es in other parts of the world that this company, or any other company may wish, at some point in the! future, to take advantage of. And the mess, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. gentleman 1 s talks about is a mess that has created 8,600 jobs in this Province, 8,600 well-paying jobs in this Province, that has SE!en, Mr. Speaker, pJ.ants in Grand Bank, Ramea, Burin and Gaultois that tJJere suppose to be shut dotJJn saved . That is 1: he mE! s s , Mr . Speaker, that has been created!
1'-11~. FENWICK : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: A suppl.emc~nli::~ry, the hon. I: he member for Menihek.
MR . FENWICK: rJJr. Sp~:1aker, my supplementary to the Minister of Fisheries is this: Would the rn:i.nish1r· not a cl rrri t t h a t UH:1 $ 8 0 rrl'i 11 i o n o r s o in pr·ofits that FPI hr.~s pich1d up OVE:1r the last coupJ.e of years arE! aCt lH:lll y b (;d n g US E:! d n OIAI t 0 d ('!V (,1} 0 p fishet"ies in other parts of thE! countr·y f.lnd :in othE!r' pat"ts of the world at the expens e of the plants that they have dropped in St. Lawrence? And what is he going to tell to the people of St. LatJJrE!I'lCE!, thE! pE!opJ.E! of LatAm, the people of Port aux Basques and other parts of the Province who have been lE!fl: in a lur·ch as l:hE! result of the irresponsible actions of t.h:is pt".i.Vi:ll:E! cornpr-.lny?
MR. SPEAKER :
L2479 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
or cl F:l r· , p l e a s e !
~:30M[ HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: ThE:~ hon. i:hE:1 Mi.rdster of F.ishc·H'iE!S .
MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, the $80-something rni. ll:i on t h t:'l t F PI has 1 E! g it 'i rna tel y earned by good business practices .in the markE!tplace ovC:~ r the last several years are bedng reinvested into new trawlers built in Marystown, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, ht':1ar!
MR. RIDEOUT: It has been, Mr· . SpeakE!r,
:i.n expans-.ions l':o netJJ r 1::1 i n1J e s t (! d plants, Bona1ri s ta, millions
the pJ.ant out in for example, several
of dollars. I 1: is reinvested in the secondary processing plant in Bur·in. It is reinvested ·in the pl.Ant out in Triton and the plant up in Port au C h o i x . T h i:l 1·: 'i. ~' I.AI h a t:. "i. :; h a p p (;! n -.J. n g with FPI, Mr. Speakel". Dynamic, progressive, a Newfoundland success story that the Socialists cannot stand, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!
MR. FENWICK : Mr . S p C:1 a I< E! r .
MR. SPEAI<ER: A final supplementary.
MR. FENWICK: A fin~l suppletTIE!nt·. c:'lry fr·orn t.he So c i a J. i s t s i n t11 j _ s c o r n E! r , M I" .
Speaker. The final supplementary is this : Wi 1 J. the rn :i n is tE! r L E! J. ·.1 us what levers he has left to force FPI to J.ive up to its r 0 s p o n s i b i l i t y tAd 1: h . r· ~~ g f.l r d t o Uw
No. 46 R2479
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four plants that he disposed of to operations that have obviously not been successful and have now put the:Hn bacY-- up for sale? Does he have any levers lE!ft 'in order' to force them to live up to their obligations?
MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries.
MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, what a Foolish Socialistic question! What lol.JOr!>, Mr. ~:ipea!<E,1r, dOE!S the Minister of Fisheries have left to d e a 1 lAd t h t he p J. cl n t d i s p o s (:' d o 11 t in TL~dllingate? What levers does tho Min"i.stc~l" of Fishe,~l".i.os hi.''ll.JO lo deal with plants in Bide Arm, Englee or Flowers Cove? Too foolish a question, Mr. Speaker, to even try to respond to.
MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the m~mber for Fogo.
MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a qUE!Stion for the Minister of Fisheries.
The minister said yesterday that the provincia] government is sympathE!t:i.c to Lhe E!ffor·t~; or the,~
Fish Aid Development Agency to get f t.l n d s , b 1.1 1.-. h (! Hl s o s c:·l ·i. cl l: h e y cannot carry the organization ctl. 0 n E:~ • I IJJO ul. cl J. i. k C:! t 0 aSk thE! minister what representation has 1-: h C:! 9 o l.J e r' n rn e n t rn i'l d c:! l: o l: h C:! F o cl e I" ;:., l gov~::~J"nrnent: t.o gE~l: funds fr·orn thE! f t'! d e r' a 1 g o 1.1 e I" n rn e n +: , i·~ !> h e indiccttc,!d yE:!stel"day that l:hE!Y had, a n d IAJ h y j_ s l:: h e f E~ d E~ r' d l. g o !J (~ r n rn e n '1: refusing that aid?
MR. · SPEAKER:
L2480 May 31, 1988 Uol XL
The hon. the Minister of Fisheries.
MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, on the second part of t-.hat qt.test.'ion I hc.'lV(:~ no idE!a tJJhy the federal governmE:1nt, through CEIC or some other presently E! x i s t i n g pro g r a rnrn E! , i s 1n e f u s i n g l o fund FADA. I ht-\V(:! no :lc!E~Cl. That is thedr dE!Cision. I haVE! heal"d r·urnor·s, I have hetH'd gossip, but I do not know what the final Uli rfk i. n g :l s .
On the first part of the questjon, Mr ~ Speaker, we have made numerous representations over the last several. months. There has been representation in writing, there has been representation verbalJ.y. We have done it in the presence of some of t.he office:!~''~' of FADA r.-H1d we have done it on our own besides l: h d l . ~:) o -1:. h C! r' e h c:l lJ E! b c• e n n u rn e I" o u s rE!prE!Sentations mad~~ by us on b(:1hRlf of FADA t.o thE! goue:~rntnE!nl
of Canada supporting thedr rE!qUE!St for· funding.
MR. TULK: A supplimentary, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: n suppl~::~mentar·y,
member for Fogo.
MR. TULK :
the hon. thE!
Mr. SpeNker, I wonder would the Minister of Fisheries table any cor· r E~ s pond C:! n c e l:: h C:·l l:: h c~ rnJ 9 h t. havE! had or any results of meetings l::h.:-\1.-. hn rn-.i.ght: have hi:td? I c.1lso as I< him if hE! is awa1"e that thE!I,..,C'! rwi.gh l-. bE:1 !>orne •Jr·oup, lAJhether' i l:. is a Cabinet minister from 1\J (~ l~oJ F o 1 1 n d l n n d , IAJ h e i.: h C:! i" ··.i. 1:. -:i. s a 1'111 P from Newfoundland that rnight be oppo~;(~d l:o th:i.!> func:l'inq oF l:.hts organization? And would he also pel"hi'lflS Lc~l.l. u~; tAJh<'ll: thC::!J.I" rationale might be? As the M·.i.n'isler· of FishE:1r'-:l.(~s I IJJoulcl oxpec t him, obv .iou sly, to I< now.
No. 46 R2480
MR. RIDEOUT: Mr . Speaker.
MR. SPEr.lKER: ThE! hon. the Minister of Fisheries.
MR. RIDEOUT: Ml". Spc~~akc-:~r, I have just finishc~~d t: e 11. "i. n g t h e h o n . g o n t l E! l'rliHl ·Uwl: I havr::~ no idE1a why funding has bElen rejected by 01::taiJJf.\. I can say to this House, and can say without foar of contrt'ldict'lon anywherc-:1 in this Province, that we as a government have supported the agency. We have supported it in writing and verbally in ils attempts to get funding out of Ottawa. And not only that, Mr. Speaker, but when they had no other funding so far, ·to this day, it has been the government of this Pr·ouince that has carr-:ied the organization financially.
MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the membor fo~ Fogo.
MR. TULK: Mr·. Speaker, I aru not quarrelling IAJ i. t h t h e p r o 'J i. n c ".i. al g o v "'' r n me n t ' s input into t.hcd:-. olnganin'ltion at all; of course, if they ct-\n put rnor'E1 in t.hen I would expect them Lo pul mol"~~ "i.n. I arn no l: quarelling with t.he han. gentJ.ernan at r.lJ.l in thclt rE1gard, bu l: I IAJould like to ask hirn, as thE' Minister of Fisheries responsible for Netufoundland, would hE! attempt t:o find out fr·om t.he federal government who or what organization or what Cabinet minister, in Ottawa or wherever, is trying to subvE,rt his att~?.rnpts
to get funding from the federaJ. government For this organ-ization? I have no quarrel with thE' hon. gentleman's work as a provincial
L2481 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
ministE:~r, go to his fi. nd ou i.:
bul I c.'lm asldng him to federal counterpart and what is happening · up
there.
MR. RIDEOUT: Min. Sp(;!ctl«~~r.
rJJR . SPErli<ER: ThE' hon. the:~ Mtnister· of FisheriE!S.
MR . RIDEOUT: Mr. · SfH:1ak~::Hn, fi.rs l: of all, of course, I never take as gospel truth any allegations or assertions that the hon. gE,ntlemc!n makes from time to t-:ime in the House. But if the hon. gE!ntlernan 1.uould likt~ an ansiA.Ier to that question, then I would assumE! that Mr. Foh1y is very approachable.
MR. EFFORD: Mr·. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member· for Port dE! Grave.
MR. EFFORD: Mr·. SfH~akc-:~r. my question is t·.o thE! Minister of Heal ·l::h (Dr. ColJ.ins) iHl d J s , a g a :i. n , :i. n r· e 1 d 'L: i . o n t o t h e desperate situat~on in our hospit~ls across the Province. The minister finally admitted ·th<:d:. one of the solutions that could be taken in relation to curing the problem aL the hospitals is the number of acute bE!dS occupiE!d by l.ong .. -·t.:E!Y'Irl pati~~nts. Th~~ ITiinistE!Y' said that in a recen·t statE!ITIE~nt,
just on the weekend.
I would ask ti·H:' M~inist.er of Health: Now that hE:1 l'lcls stat eel pubJ.icly that increas-ing the number of beds ts a u.Jay of curj ng the Pl"obl.ern, is his govc:,r·nrnE,nt nou.1 going to provide money to build rnor·(~~ SElnior· cJ. L~:i.ZE!I'lS' homes to take care of long-term patients who are presently occupying beds
No. 46 R2481
in hospitals?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.
DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, lAJe are doing l:ha t. on a progi"'E!ssive basis. I think at the present time there are something like 2, 000 beds for level 2 and level 3 r'E!Siden ·ts IAJho need nursing care in the Province. In th.:1 last yc:1r.1r or so we have added, I think, another 248. We i:1re continui.ng !·:hat planning exercise.
In cHicH Lion t .o thr.t l: -· i:l.nd T. Ur'i.nk that this is an ar·ea that we have L o de v e 1 o p rno r e i.'l n d rno r ~) . IJ..JC::1 t-l.l"' e in a VEH'Y r.lctive planning mode in r (:1 g r.'l r d t o :i m p r· o lJ'J. n 9 h o rn E:1 c <:H' e services and community care SC;!Y'lJi.CE!!). .( t·.hink -i.n 0111" visitations around the Province, t he o fH~ r a bH' !> oF t hE! 1n1 r i. o u s nursing homes agreed with us - we di.d not sort of gE!t this oui:: of them in any sort of argumentative lAJa y ; t h c:1 y v o 1 u n teE! red it '.in mc:Hl y respects that som(~ of the r·e s id E:Hlts admitted c ou 1d r·ea 11 y have bee!n kept home if there! had been adequate development of horne care and community SE!rvices around the Provj.nce . WE! ar'Ei! ac t'.ivC::1ly working towards that end .
MR. EFFORD : ~ suppl e mentary, Mr. Spe~ker .
MR. SPE~KER:
A sup p 1 erne n tar y , t h <::1 h on . the i me m b ~H' f o r· P o r· t d E~ G i" i':1 lJ e .
Ml~. EFFORD : Ml" . SpE:1i:lkE)r', J.t is qu ·ite obvious lh ~·1l ·l·.he Min-i.!;1:.el" or llec:11'L:h dOE!!) not undeJ"S'\:and the:1t. lAJhat hE:1 has be e n d o j , n 9 i. n L h o p c:-1 s t: i !> no t lAJOI" ld ng and he is got ng to have to es Cc'l1i.'\ te :i L 'l.o llli:'lkE! -L 1: lAJOl"k "i.n t.hc:1 future .
L2482 May 3 1 , 19 8 8 Vol XL
In light of another statement that the minister made concerning small hospitals around thE-) IsJ.arid, · t:hat there are too many beds opening in our· small hospitals, is he t~:!lling
us, for example, on the! Burin Peninsula, where there are three hospitaJ.s, that ·t.hE! bE!ds arE! going to b~~ closed, or· that two of tho s e~
hospitaJ.s are going to be closE!d and just one used on the Burin Peninsula, and the samE! with othe!r plac~s an the Island? Is that what the minister is saying?
MR. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. ti'H:1 Minister of Health.
DR. COLLINS: M i"' . ~:) p c~ a k er· , I] o lJE! r· n rn e n L ' s p o 1. -.i c y
on that is absolutE!ly cr·ysta1 cloRt' c:'lnd ·i. l has boE:!n s t: <.·1'l::E:!d c:~bout
a dozen times. We have decided to p '' t: on +·.he 131.11" j , n Pen :i. n ~:; u 1. d r.:1 n up- ·to-date, E:~fFictent, E!ff<;~ct:iVE!,
1.\JE!ll ·ogtli.ppoc:l, l"(~ gional ho s p .itc-::~1..
That will be opened on a progr~1ss'.ive bds:is o~JE!r' l:h<;! l'lE!Xi': number of months.
Now, prior to that, there IAJE!I"E:' s rn~ 11 E! r· h o s p :it al s t h EH' E! that d r.d: e back thirty and forty yec1rs, and time has passed on s~inCE! that time. So what we have said j s that WE! iH'E:~ going to of ·fc;!r thE! peoplE! down there rnodE!rn day hospital carc:1, and IAH:! are go·:i.ng t.o lE:1aVE! it. up to the PE!OplE! -- IAlh:lch :is thE! pr·oper Lh:i. ng Lo do, and :il.: i s clonE! in every part of the Province - to use that facility to thG exte~L
that they IAlish to use if for their 01.1Jn n<)Od~;. I ·t:.h ·tnk thi.·1t (i!VOryonE! wi 11 a g r· E! <::~ l>~d t h that, and thE! pE!OpJ.e on !-:he Blli" ·.'i.n P~:!n·insula have :indica ted, 1..1r.i. thou ·t: any s hadot~J of a dot1b+:, l:.hny ,:·11"C! lfiO~;+.: plec:1socl to hr.~vc~ t:hJs rnod~~r·n fac'il:i.ty rnaciE:~
d lJ <:1 :i. l i:l b l e t.: o 1.: h ern . T h e o n l y o 1:: h C:! r· E!quivaJ.c;•nt factl-.:L ·I:y of 'tha ·l: natui"E' i:'llJ <:·1 J l i.'\ b l. o t . o i:. h o rn , 1.1 p 1.1 n t:. -.1. l v Ei! r· y r·ecently, was her·e J.n St .
No. '~6 R2482
John's. In the last few years they could also go to Clarenville, which is a newly opened hospitaL 1..vh·:i.ch I..VC::1 hav(~ pr'Olri.c:IE!d For· that.: ar·c.;!a also.
nut they ar·e most pleased ·to haVE:1 Lhis exll"a, 11p -to -- clr:·1t<:1 Fac:i.l"i.l·.y available to them. No one is g o i n g L o F o r· c E! 1:·. h e rn l o 1 1 s o :J. l b 1 1 t. c~lveryone expects, because of the altitude they are tdking towdrd i t , t hat i t wi 11 be pro g r e s s i v e 1 y used by the people on tho Peninsula. What happens to the smaller inslitulions that are there_ now is for government to dec-idr::1. We:1 1..vill not IAii:lste those resources. They are still v a 1 u a b 1 e a s s e l s to t hi s P r• o v i n c C::1 and we will not waste those assets and not waste the expertise and the de!dication of the people who a r· e IAJO r king :in tho s C::\ p r· ~~ s EHI t Facilities.
MR. EFFORD: A final supplementary, Mr. Spe~ker .
MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary .
MR. [FFORD: The MHA For the hosp-.itals r.1re:1 not b u t t h ('! 1 n j_ n :i. ~; i:. e r· going to close .
MR. ~3IMMS:
ar(:lf.'l says 17.he going to close ~;;:1 y !; t h n y r:n· e
II ~:! d 'i. d n o L s r:'l y -1:. h E! y IAJ E:! r• 1::! 9 0 i. n g t. 0
close.
MR. DINN: Why do you not open your ears, boy?
MR. SPEAKER: o-rder, ple!aSE!!
MR. EFFORD: Mr·. Spc,1akc,1rl I had rrrilk for· lunch. I wonder if the members on the othE!r s-:ide drank apple-?. juicr::1? They seem -to be very hyper this
L24-83 May 3 11 19 8 8 Vol XL
. --... - ···- -· ----· -· ~ ~ _ .. ... -·-· -·-· . -- .. . ---
afternoon.
I ask does the minister· ag~~e ~i~h l:he stc1i:ernenl Oi". Young rnc:~de that the reason bE!dS close dur-ing thE! Summer rnonth!> tH'(~ bcc\Ci·1USE! of budget cuts and not what the,\ 1ni n -.i. s l: or· h i'l s beE! n s c:l y t n g I l: h R l.: J l:. is bC:lcause pE!OplE! do not go into h o s p J L ;::~, 1 t n ~> 1.1rnrn o r· ? T s D I" . Y o u n g correct, or is ·the minister· still s a y l n g IAJ h a i: h e h i'\ s ~H:! o n s <.'1 y i. n g -.i s c o r r ·e c t , that t he y c 1 o s e bE! c au s E! pEwp1C::1 clo not go -i.nto hospJtal?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister Health.
DR. COLLINS: Mr·. Speai<C:lr, I IArish that theSE! words would not bE! band'iE!d about. The r e:1 a r· e no c u t s i n l: h C::\ f u n d i n g to hospital operations in this P r· o v i n c c~! . I s p o !< o l o t h e N M A at the WE!E!kendl and thE!l"e IJ.Jas no qu~::1sl~. 'ion of the:l.i.r not accepUng rny word on it because they fully agr'E!C:ld on it and I poinb:H:l out. to them that over the last: ten years t h ~H' <-:\ ell" C:! b l.;! 'liAHH~Hl 2 1 I 2 l·:. o 3 t.: i m e s the amount of funding going 'into MCP and our· hospi-l:t-ll. ~;, .... and th:is is the area where doctors ·IAJorl<, in fJ!CP and hospi.tRl~; ;,.u; thc,1rr::1 has been of a gener·al inci"C::laSE! in our· c 11 i" r· (:' n 1:. ;:·1 c co 11 n L :; . T. n o L h c~! r· 1.1JO I" d s I
tve ar·e putting 2 1/2 to 3 ·U.iTIE!S t: h (~' r 1.1 n c:l j_ n g in l h (:\ r' (,\ d s t·. he 1" C! ]. s (.~
genoral increase in our current i~lccoun-1:-. s. In othe1" IAJor·ds tAJC:\ t:•1r'r:! putting 2 1/2 to 3 times the dlnot:nt. of rnont':lY :in t·.hose t:.t.:.Jo uJl:.iill areas for medical services than we d r· E! d o i n g o n t. h E! g e n ~~ r· a 1 b a s J s F o r all government servj.CE!S. NOIJ.J 1
IAJh<'lt-. Dr·. Young says I c:-J.ITI not r E! s p o n s t b 1 e for . I t h -:i. n k y o u could pr·obably p:i.ck SC::1ntei'ICE!S out of any speech and say that thJs ts t:hr::1 Hlain rnr::1ssc:·lqE! in l:hat speech. Dr·. Young is a VE!ry r'E!asonablE! r.~nd
v ~H' y r· E! s p o n s i b 1 C:\ p h y s .i c -.i a n , a n cl h e will say a number of things but he
No. 4-6 R2483
does not take a single narrow view oF thi.ng:;. S11r'e, he says we ,,~,ould
like to have more money in the health care system, but he also says that we have a lot of new h1chnology, we have a lot of dElVeloprnent that we have done and mor'E:1 IAIE! hclVI'::1 to do, t.hat IAJB hi:Wt1 cer·tain difficultiE:'S in gE!tting nurs'.ing staf·F at Cl'::1rtain t:imE:1S of the year I but Dr. Young has taken a very broad and a very SE!nsible view of this whole situation.
MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speai<E:1r.
MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker·.
Ml~. SPEAKER: I und(o11~s ·Uwd that tAJas a final supp1etn(:,nt:ar·y .
ThE:1 hon. the mE~mbE:H' for· thE:1 Str·ait or BC:1l1e T.sle.
MR. DFCI<ER: Mr. Sper:~kel", my quesl'i.on is to the hon. thE:1 Minister of Education.
1 he minister will know about the incident where some ed~cation
experts resigned from a provincial advisory c ommi +:. ·h:1l~1 bE! cause thE:1 choice of a new math course was in their· tAJords, not based on 'rational rE!asons' . Will thE! minister tell the House what terms of reference were used, when he d El C i d e d IAJ h :i C h I rJ i~ t: h C 0 U I" S ~:! t: 0
a c c e p -1:, if Hw dEl cis ion 1.ua s not a r·ational d(o1ctsion 1 i;lS thOS(o1
··E:,ducatoi"S say?
MR. LONG: He read The Sunday Express.
MR. SPEAI<F.H: T h e h o n . l. h c~ M 'i. n t s +·. e I" o (' E cl1 1 c n l: .i. o n .
Mr~. 1-1 F.:() 1~N: Mr·. Speaker·, mE! say tlAJ()
L2481J. Me1y 31, 19H8 lJol. XL
· .... · .,_._ .... ·~- .. --·-·-· · -·-" ..... · -··~-· -- ·
things : Firstly, perhaps the hon. the mr:HnbHr For St. John's Eas-t (Mr. Long) should haVE! . s-tayed· jn -
his IJJhE!E'lChi:\ir• i:lnd he IAJOUld haVE! gotten more sympathy. Secondly, i t s e ern s I 1 is tEl t·J:i n g to the f :L r s t quE,stion today from thE' hon. the Lomcli::!l" of th~~ Opposi-t.ion and l'lOIAJ this one, that the members opposite got The Sunday Express a day 1 ate , b r:1 cause t h E:l s c~ WE! r· ~:! questions we usually ge-t on Mo rufa y , sin c t1 b o ·t h topics we r· e covered in the paper.
MR. BAKER: Answer the question.
MR. HEARN: ThE:1 anst.uer to the question -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh~ oh!
MR. TOBIN : 1 .. -Lslen to J-11:-lr'r'y'~> young ·fE!ll.otv .
MR. HEARN: -i.l i.s lJC:1ry si.rnpl.e. ThE! ITIE!mbe:1rs
of a primary-elementary curriculum comrnilt('l(o1 l~esoignc;,cl, not an advisory committee to thE! min:ister or any · such th:ing, although t.ue have a general advisory cornrnitte'e made up of representatives From thE! different agencies . This was a committee on mathametics selecting a nElW course. TherE! U.Jc~s
a tied vote on the rlecision of two different companies. The Cun·:iculum Consultant I IAJho cast a tying votE! actually, was in favour· of t:ho ' n<~w text, The Math Quest, l:·.hij'-1.: lrli:,ny oducr.·,i:.or·s :in l::h~~ f:i(:!ld favour. So to makE' surE! that thE• c o r· r e c +·. +: e x 1:. IAJ a s s e l e c t: C! d f o r· t: h C:'
p(;,oplc,1 IAJho use it: and the studE!nts J n t. h o f -:i. C! J. d I IAJ e ~' Ill" u o y C! d i·:,, n urn b (! r· of rna t h co-· or· d :in a t: or· s and t E! cl c h El r· s in I:: he r •i.<~ld I i:lf'Jc:l t:. h("' c:loc:i.~; i, on was practically unanimous, I t1nder·st:.;;·1nd 11nan:i.tno11~> fr·orn t::ht=!
field, th~1t Uw Addison WeslE'Y
No . '~6 R2t~84
text, the one selected, was by far the better text. In fact I heard an educator yesterday morning being inb':fr•v:ie::n•Jed on CBC r·adoio and he referred to i ·t as an . exceptionally good text.
So t.l.lhc~Hl th~H'(~ lAJc:-lS d l'.·."i.ed dC!Cl!non, we took our guidance from the f i. (~ l d , L h <~~ p ~1 o p J. e '"J h o t 1 s (o! "i. t a n d thE:1 pE:wpl<"' uJho t.ui11 benefit from :i. l . C ~<:1 r t a :i. n l y 1 c o ul d 1 .. i. !> t , b u 1:. I will not take the time of the HOUSC::1 to do -i.t, i:lbOilt i.:E!rl rC::1i:-\Sons givc"'n why it is a far superior text thr:"'n the orws that. some of the other members of the committee thought might bC::1 t.he orH~1 that:. UJC::1 should use .
MR. DECKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: ... __ .. _____ _ A supplementary, the::1 hon. the member for the Strait of B~.-:1lle
Isle.
MR. DECKER: It is too bad the minister did not read The Sunday Express article himself. He would have knov.m it t.uas unanimous t.uhen , t.. hc~1 ftnal report came in.
SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh!
MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, he is some boring.
SOMF HON. MEMBFRS : Spt1al< up! Sp(!r:"'k 11p!
MR. DECKER: I am not blessed with a strong voice, fJ!t" . Spcc~ak<:!l". So 'i.f t:hH han. peoplE! want to hE!ar· me thE!Y are just going to hctve to be still, bE!Cause I do not havE! thE! s t r· e n g t h to y c~~ 11 .
MR. SPEAKER:
l2485 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
Order, please!
MR. DECKER: HclS t.h~.-:1 mi.nisi:<~r mE!t t.;.Jith ·t.hc tlJJo educational experts to ascertain IAJ 1·1 (:\ t l: h <~1 p r 0 b l. l~ rrt $ WE! F' "=1 , ·t 0 S C:1 E!
t.uhether or not there is a gE!nuine 1"r:1ason? B(~cc1uso tl:ll:; "i.s e1 \>(!t"-:i.ous mattE!r. It might just bEo! a S q I I i.-1. b b ]_ 0 , S 1.11" 0 . [J I I t IAJ h <:'! 1'1 IAJC! arE! dealing with thE! educat·ion of our· dd.ldrcHl, T th'i. n k -·
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. DECKER: T d. s k L h (~ rrd n t s t c;! r· : lias L he minister met with those C::H~ucati.onal Co1XP<-:lrts to see :if 'J.t is not just a squabbJ.e, or if thE! r· e tAJi:<:~ s a leg :it :i rna t. e::1 r· e c:H on for thedr actions?
M fL_§_P E A I< ~B. : The hon. the Minister of Education.
MR. HEARN: Mr. Speake::1r, we have 'in our de1partrnent a number of curri cu1urn c ornmi t . t.: E:H~1 l> , c ornmi U: C::1 e s rncl d c~1 up of the curriculum consultants in the udr:ious aroas ~nd also teachers from the field, some people who IAJor·k, p(~r·hRps, at t:l'w l:lOiH'd l.C::wel, many of Lhern classroom teachers, t~Jho dr'~ ~>E!1(:1Ci".:E!d J.n th(:1-i.t" f:i~~!J.d of expertise to make up the c o rnrwi. t-. i.: o <~1 !> , 1:. o rna k e !> e 1. l'.! c t. J o n s , t:. o r e co mrn E! n d t E! x t s , and , 'i n so rrH:! c a s e s , L o c:l C::1 l) e l. o p c 1 1 r· r· :i. c u l u rn material. When there :is a disp~te
~~;'co t~.Jh "i.c h t.oxi:. 'i.s bet.t:er·, t.hen they tl1errtSE!lves dec:ide!, or· t.UE:1 try t. o f :i. n d s om o o L h e r rn ~:! t: h o d o F ascertaining 1..1Jh:ich is the correct. ono .
In t~h:i.s cas1::1, so1n~=! o·f l::hE! l"(:!a~;on~:;
given by thE! peoplE! in the fiE!ld, l: h ~c1 p E! () p l. E! IJJ h 0 IAI.i 11 U S (~1 1:: h i S t (C! X t u1tirnately for the children are: Th1::1 .gE!OmE!tr·y clnd triE!i:1sur'EHTlE!nt ar'l'::1
No. 46 R2485
superior; l.:he scope and s·eq11ence of whole numbers and decimals are more i.'l.ppr·opr·i. a ·te; con c c-} p-t: developm~~t is superior; emphasis on cotnpt.tl:. a ·l:. i.on J"(-:1rl.ecl!> ct.tr'J"enl tnHtds; estima-tion is superior; thet"(o1 .is i.·1 pt~r·al.l.(~l. tr·an~>li.·1l:ton "i.n Fr·E!I'ICh fo1n FlnE!rJCh irnrn~H'Sion, 1.\Jhich IJJa S n 0 1~. t: h (~ Y' !::1 l.o~J":i L h t: he 0 t h ~~I" 0 n ~~ ; the design and physical aspects of t he t e x t i s s u p e r i or ; t: (-:1 a c he r· s addition provides a wide range of ideas; and the attitude of the students towards mathematics was more positive in the 111aLh quc-?.st. pilot schools .
The evaluation techniques lhat were used from the field were IJJri tten r'E:1ports, r,::tl::ing instruments, teleconferences, and v:i. si. ta li.on by I: he 111a t:he111a U. c s consultants . Twenty schools were p .i l o l e cl 1...1Ji. t h b o L h L h o ~; ~=! ·t: ex l: s , approximately 275 te~chers, K to VI, r.1pprox~i.rnat. E:1ly 6, 000 s l'.udent.s, and they IJJore the ones who s 1.1 g g e s i'.: e cl 1.: he rni:' t: h q 1.1 e ~> l.: p .i 1 o L !; e r i e s 1JJa s by far s u p e r i or to t he olhHr ones.
To answe1n I.: hE! - oth e r· pi:lr'-t: of l: hH qUE:1stion, have I met with them, we hi::tVe curri.culurn conunil~.tec~s i.:h<:1t·. dE!al IJJit.h our consultants. I hi.'tVE:1 not b~:!E!n askE!d La rn~=!~~ 1:. IJJi.l.:h them . It wa s hand 1 e d by the curriculum division, as it s h o u 1 d . They madE! the decision as t h e y a r· e s u p p o s e d to d o .
SOME HON . MEMBERS : HEH:lr, hE!ar!
MR. DECKER : A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker .
MR. SPErl KEf~ :
A final supplementary, the hon. the:! 1nernbe1" for· Lho ~3'1-: r·,:,:it·. of:- nell{.~
Isle .
MR. DECKER:
May 31, 1.988 \) o l. X 1 ..
Mr·. Sp8~ke::H', i. l.: .1.s nol: 11(~ccssdry
for the minister to read ThE! F::cltlc~l:i.on rlcl:..
Ml~. SPEAKER: Order, pleaSE!!
MR. DECKER: I ask the minister: Is he absolutely satisfiE!d that thEH'E! -.is no pr·oblE:Hn ht:H'E:1, that the parents of this Province can rE!lax, there is · no conCE:1r'n, t.hE!r'e oi.s no problem? 11 EVE!rything is under c o n i: r· o l. , 11 a s G e n . H a i g s a i d , a s h e was in chargE! I.IJhE!I1 ·thE! PrE!~d.dE!nt
1Ali:1 S S h 0 t .
Is thE! minister satisfj_E!d that ~w
-i.s Jn cont:r·ol, t.h~:!Y'(~! 'is not-.hing t:o worry about, everything -.is perfect? Can the people of N e wf o u n d 1 and r E! s t as s u r c,1 d that thE! 1 n J n t :; t: C:! I" "i. s s a l: J :> f t e d 1.o~ri. 1·.: h IAJ h i:'t l:: happened with this math problem?
MR. SPEAI<ER: Tho hon. the M:i. n:i.~;tc,1r' of Ecit.ICi'1 l:. :i.on.
MR. HEARN: Mr·. Speake!r, if I l.o~Jere taking the tAJor·d oF, sdy, two pr~ople agaJnst two people wh~ were tied up in +.: h t s d i . s p u to h E:H' e:1 , I IAJ o u 1 d h a v e some conCE!rn, you know, all of l: h (!! m b o t n 9 v e I" y , tJ e I" y J. n l E'! 11 i 9 (!! n t people, people who have a J.ot of E:1 x p (-:1f' i E:Hl c E:1 i. n t hi s f -.1. E! l d and consequentJ.y it: rrd.ght: bE! hard to decide or determine which group would have thE! corrE!Ct choicE! mad~~- What h~~lp~~d us rni:<tkE:1 our choice, and IAJhy I fE!Ed quitE• certain that everything is aboveboard and reasonable and p r· o p e I" , :i. s + .. h C! f c:<t c t: t h a l:". 1:: h r:• u l U. rna t E! t E! s t 1JJa s by t he p E! o p 1 e ::i. n l:: h o (' ·i. e J. cJ t.o~J h o 1.1 !> e t. h ~=! t u x l.: , l:: h E! students and the teachers, and Lhe-i.r choice i s clear - cut. Cons~:!quentJ.y, IAH~ ful1y acCE!pl: that be c a 11 s r-) ·L -1.: .1. !> i.·1 J. !> o t. he c h o "L c f!! of our OlJJnE:H' plnofessional pEH)plo who
1\Jo. IJ.6
~-
are responsible for developing such curr•iculum.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The time for oral e lr.w s (~ d .
MR. SPEr.lKER: Order, plc,1ase!
questions has
I would like at this stage to IAJelcome to the yallr:1d.c-)s for·ty ... four Gr·ade VII students tAJith 1.: h e t ,.. t <-:1 .:., c h r:1 r· :> , Me 1. tJ "i. n M o 1.1 J. .t. o n r:1 n d Gilbert Tulk, from Glouertown Regi.onaJ. High School .
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Her..~r, he:1ar!
Notices of Motion
PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker .
MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier.
PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of lhl:?. Minister of Consumer Affairs and Cornmuni.cati.ons I g"i.ve nol'i.cc~ 1-:h.:,,'l':. I will on tomorrow ask leave to "i. n +:. r o d 1 J c e a b t ll e n t i. 17. l. r:1 d , 11
() n (.l c ·1.·.
To Revise And Consolidate The LatAJ Respecting Tenr:1ncies OF RE!S:idential Pr·~~mises. 11
SOMF HON. MfMRERS: H c:1 (:\ r· , h t:1 .:~ r· !
Mf~. :3IMMS: Min, ~:ipE~akE:H'.
~ R_:.-J~ F. A ~E ~-: The hon. t:he Pr·c~sJdc,,nt of t:hC:! Council.
MR. SIMMS:
L2487 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Finance I gi u E! notice that I will on tomorrow move th-at dll:1 H o u s e:1 r e s o 1 v e it s e 1 f i n to a Committee of the Whol& to consider c e r· t i:l i. n r E~ s o 1 u l·: i o n s r· e 1 a t . :i n g l o the raising of loans by the P r· o tJ 'i. n c e , a n d I g i. v e a f u r· 1":. h c,1 r· notice that I will on tomorrow tno v E-) 1: h n t t 1·1 t:' 1·1 o 1-1 s c~ r o so 1 v e J. t: s E! l·f=' into a Committee of the Whole on s 1.1 p p l.y 1·: o c o n s J. d 1'::1 r c E! I" t. i:~ ".i. n r e s o·J. u t i o n s for t h e g r a n t i n g of Sup pl. omen 1:. a r· y ~1 11 p pl. 1J 1.: o HE:! r· Majesty.
Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career D e tJ (,~ l o p m E! n t C:ll'l d A d v a n c E:! cJ S 1'.: u cJ i El s .
MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I would just like to inform hon. me rn b e r· s , a s a r· e s u 1 t of cl q u e s t i o n by the mE!mbE!r for Bonav] sta North yesterday, that I haue been checking :j,.nto the concE1rn -·I do not want to bring forward the name of the particular studE!nt. I th011ght i::l.t the t"i.ITH~, IAJ'i. t:h t.he question as kE!d by the hon. mE:!rnbE!r, l: h c:l i.: L h r::! t' c~ IAJ (:1 r· e p r· o b l. e 1 n :; d 'i r· 1::1 c t l. y related to the bankruptcy of H C.'lr' b t n 9 e r· S c h o o l. . B u l: , u p o n checking, I found Lhat the:• ~;t.tldonl : , .i.n (:1:;~;enco, IAJ:i. t.hdr·etAJ twelve weeks afler entering lhe pi"O<.!Jt'(:,mme For· per·sonc:ll r·c~a~;ons.
Indeed, the student d~i.d hi:'lVE! a ~; I'. II de 1'1 i·. 1. () 1:-\ n 0 r $ 5 1 2 5 () , ·r h (! sttAdent paid $3,350 in t:uJt:ion FE!r,~:> t.o HHI"b:i. ng(;!r'. ;:>·incc:! ~;hE:! only complc~tE!d twelVE! IAJE:~eks of U·w course, the tuiLion feo directly OlAJed arnountE!d to $1,603. 53. F1norn what we can determine, Harbinger should have rE!fundE!d $1, 74·6. 4·7. to
No. 46 R2487
the student. However, it is our unc:I(:H'standi.ng t.: hi:> arnounl: 1~1as
I'H:W E:l r r· €1 f !Hl d e d , e v e n thou g h t h e yectr end reporl of the school indicatE.~d to ou1" department that I.JH~ cHn o u n t I·H·u:l b e e n p a i d . T h e studEHd~, as IAI(:1ll, is c~HrtitlE!d to $840.00 in deferred provincial gl"cHrts IAJhich can be appl ·iE:1d and IJJ.i ll. b e "' p p l "i. o d l o r· E:1 d 1.1 c C:! L h E:1 anrount of thE! Canada Student Loan from $5,250 to $4,410.
So the stalus is, yc,1s, the s t.udent did receive a Canada Student Loan for $5,250, paid $3,350 to Harbinger School of Business, received training valued at $1,603.53, and had $1,900 for personal expenses while a student.
By L he I.•Ja y , s h l':1 lh d r· ~~ c e .i v (:1 l h a L . Ther'E! u1as some question yeste1"day a s to 1.1.1 h t1 l:: h l;! r· o r· no t·. l:. h {'! s -l: 1 ~ d e n L: actually dtd get hE!r' hands on any rnonE!IJ ~-ll:: dll, bui: t: her·c~1 IAJa~; $1.,900 that sh(:1 did ac -tually receive. S h e "i. s H l i g i b 1 (:1 t o h c.w e +: h c\ t 1 o <.-Hl
reduced by $84-0 unde1n the deferred g r i~ n t l: h r o 1.1 g h . s 1-. 1 1 c:1 e n t •'\ 1. c1 , d n cl , l guess, is considered to be in c InC! d j_ 1.: 0 r OIAI~~ c:1 $:1. I '7 '1-G ' ''· 7 b lj Harbinger School of Business. T h c'l. t i. S t h e :;:i. t. II d 1.: i. 0 n t1 0 IAI . [ Mil
pursuing it a bit further about h c:! r· p <:H' t i. c 111. a r c a s E! • b u i·. a s t•.H,1ll to try to dt~h1rmine how many ot.h<:!r's l:hc,1r·c~1 dr'c;! IAJho rn:i.ght b~~ i.n thE! sam(;! boat.
MR. SPEAI<El~:
The hon . the Minister of Education .
MR. HEARN : Thank you, Mr. Speaker .
l have thE! an s IAJe r t. o a quest]. on f r o rn t. h e h o n . L: h e m o 1 n b c:! r· f~ o r· t. h 1::1
Str·ait of BeJ.lE! IslE! (Mr. Dc:!cker) . l·IOIAI rnany p~~opl.e dr·~~
CUinl"E!ntly lAIOI"idng · in rny offiCE! _and so on? l h c~ c:Hl s IAHH' ] . s +: l·w ~H' , l·.:tAJO secretar·iHs, · and an executiVE!
L 2 '~8 8 Mr:--tlj 3 1. 1 1 9 H 8 lJol XI.
-~------ ------
assistant. One was appointed by 0 r d e r· · ·i n-·co u n c: J 1., 1: h o c,1 x e c u tJ. v e assistant. Both secritari~s are C c:·l r· 0 H r' p II b l. i. C ~) 0 r \) d l'l i'.: ~; IAJ:i. l: h eighl::eE!n YE!ars i'.Hid thirteE!rl yc.;!ar·s r t~ s pI-) c 1.: ·i. v e 1. y . T h E:11J IAI e I"<,~ t. h f.:! I" o long before I came and undoubtedly will be there long after I ex i t.
MR. r~. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER : The hon. t:.hc,1 MinislcH' of For(~st
RE!SOurces.
MR. R .· AYLWARD: M r . S p (:1 ak r:1 r , y E~ s 't. E! r· day thE! h on . the member for the Strait of Belle IslE! asbH~ m~:! i.-l question on l:he hiring of forest fires in the RoddicL:on area. I have a few notes here, just to inform the hon. mernb~~'"· Ei:·lch r'E~g:J.on cleci.cl!:•s when thE! foJnE!St firE!S arE! to be h "i. I" c:! d o n . I 1:: d c~ p c:! n d :; E! n 1.: i r· 1::1 1 y o n the WE!a"lher conditions in that r:-lrCo1CI.
r:lN HOI\I. MF.MBER : Fi refig hte r· s -~
MR. R. AYLWARD: f o r· o !> L f i r e f i g h t. (:1 r· !; ? Whc.·\t d-i.d I say?
AN HON. MEMBER: Fo1"est fir·c,1s .
MR. R. AYLW.ARD: I <:,11n son· y about t: hat .
The d at e t hE! y a r e hi r E! d , M r· . Speaker, depends on L:he weather conditions in thE! al"E!a . WE! have some indicaLions there is still SnOIAI in SOlliE! of t:hE! IAIOOdS ar·ouncl r~oddJct:on. ~)o 'i.-1. is not:-. Cl"]. l:::J.cal IAIE! hir'E! thE~ITI on nouJ. W!i:1 IAICll'l-1:: to I fl i:l !< e ~; I II"(! IJ.J e h i·l U ~~ Cc1 n 0 l.l q h t.: "i JTI e a ·t. l:hE! E!nd of l!'J(:1 season becausE:! in the Northern secLion of our Province, · ar·ound SE:1pternber and
1\J o . II.() R211-8 8
- ~·- · -.o.J-.~ow.N ... ,.. ......._.j .l-... --.~-.._,, _ - .. --~- . • -~...._ .._... __ , .,.~• -----··-- - ·• .. _ -~----w __ ._._,,,,.. ... _ ... ~----~--·--·----·--·--• -- __. •-·- -·•••--- --·
Labour Day WE!E:1kend, we often haue what we consider a fire hazard area.
It t~o.Jas rnent'.iom1d there~ was a f:ir·e l.n 1986 be!fore tAJe had our people hi t' e d o n and t hat i s c o t' r 1::1 c t , M r . Speaker. But the day the fire oc c urr't::H:J, our· p(:H'rnanent s tnff and people we hired that day put the f "i. t' 1::1 o u t . T h c-:1 f i. r (;:1 o c c u n· ~~ d f r· o rn the operations of a sawmill at the l'.:'i.m<:1 t.vhi.ch 1~o.1as burning Si:\V.U:IItsl: dnd it got into a small cutover. When '.i.t hit: th<-:1 Sl'lOlA.I Jn t. hc~ IAIOOdS, Mr. Spt::1aker, it. went out fair·ly qtlickly.
I n t h e h i. ~• t'. o r· 1J of h :J. r· i n g .i. n t h H l: an1a, Mr·. SpE.~Ciker·, in 1984· , June '1.8; 1.913':), J11ne :?.6; 1.9H6, May 28; and 1987, May 27. Mr. Speaker, f·.: hiS y e i'\ r IAJ(~ IA.IJ.J."J. h d I) (:1 'l: hI::! Ill 0 1'1 i:\ l: 1east by Jt..II'H:1 15, and if l'l(:!C(:!SSdi"Y, befo1ne thdt.
Petitions
MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker·.
MR. SPEAKER: ThE1 hon. the mE1rnber for Burg eo -Bay d'Espolr·.
MR. GILBF.RT: Mt". Spea 1«-H', I have f' r' 0 m liJ.O In ~:1 s :i. d <-:1 n 1.: s Ramer.l, GI"BY RiVE!r' and '"i. 1.-. t ~; c o n c or' n i. n g i-:. he I v.Jould lJ b~ to l"ec.td 1'1 OIAI.
11 To th~~ Hon. HoUSEl of P r:\ r· l j, t:·\ rn (~ n 1-. A :> s c'.~ m b l. <:1 d :
a peU.tion of Bur·gc~o,
Francois and !3 Lll" g (! 0 R 0 i:Hl . the pE1tition
11 'The poL"i. ·t.'i.on of l.:he uncler·~;Jgned
r·esiclc,l rd.s of Ci:.tnadf..l who now ava:iJ. l: he 111 s ~~ l I) e s of the i. r· 1:·1 n c '.i u n t !.'\ n d undoubhH~ r·ight: thus to present a grievance common to your
L2489 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
petitioners in the certain assur·ance that your· Honourable House will therefore ·provide · a · r•e:1mE1dy. 11
The prayer is this:
"WHEf,EAS thE1 BurgE!O Road has r~~ceivt:1d no upgr'r:\dlng or· pdv-:ing :in the past three years, and
"WHEREAS the1 Burgee Road l. o n <.:ro G t c o n t. i. n u o u s g r· <.·\ v 1::1 l Newfoundland, and;
is the road ·t n
"WHEREAS the towns of BUJngeo ancl l~atnea r:lr'e con ·l:r·-i.btl"i:.:i.ng grec:ttly Lo the _ e:1conorny of this Province"! thr·o119h i·. hE:1ir· pr·Jrnr.·\l"Y -:i.ndust.:l"y, and;
"WHEREAS the cost of living and c r:1 r· i" y ·i. n g o n <:1 n t <-:1 r· p r· J s e "i. n o u r· totAJns is significantJ.y h:ighE1r dtH1 t. o +:. h e i n r:1 d E:1 q 11 a c y of L h <'! p r' e s E:1 n t road system;
11 THEREFORE: We:1, th<:1 under•signed, petition the Government of N(:1WfOLindl.and and Labr·ador to begin a programme immediately to upgrade and pc:we thE:1 Burg~w Road. WE! iH'El disgusted with the poli ·tical garrH::1S being played and wish only to have our transportation problems c:\ll.ev:ic:ltEld. Th:is wi.ll r·~~t~ul!':. :in improvements in the economy of our C\ r· c,1 r:·\ t h r· o 1.1 g h -.i. n c r· ~~ r)\ s E~ d 1:·. o u r· :i s 111 , more high quality fish products bt~1ing pr<,1pi:\l"<-:ld /'t('ll"<-:1 and i:ln increase in the service sector. () l J of ~~~ h '.'i. c h !A! "i. ll .i n c r· e a ~; (:1
employment levels and generate (~IJ(~rJ lrtOI''(l l:.i:\X clol.l.dl":;.
11 WE1 c~S b~d only to be tl"eateci fdi.r·ly ;:·\ nd IJ.ri. i: h J"espe c l.: and dignity."
Mr". SpE1aker, thJs :is a pEd:i. Lion I j u s t h d p p (:! n (l cl t o h a I) <:1 r· c~1 c c:~ oi. v ('! d i:'l n d it is Vt1ry fitting today I should p r· e ~> lc:1 n t t h i. :; 'i. n 1; 'i. f:!IAI of l h <:1 f d c t
No. 46 R2489
we havE:~ j u~t gotten anot.hc-:~r t:oa:>i7. to the pork barrelling handed out by the Department of Transpor·{alion. We ar·c-:~ now down · t: o t: h e p o t n l ~~~ h c-:~ r· E:~ t h o rn :i. n :i. ~> L c~ l" has given out approximately $29 rni.ll i. on of t·: h c"~ p r· o tJ "i. n c J. r:'\ l. r· o i:·u:l rno nc-?.y f Ol" this y E:1i:H'. So thEH'B is i:'l. b o u i:. i.'l no ·1.: h n r· $ 1 l rn :i J. l "i. o n l e f 1.: l~ o
I:H"~ dispens<-:~d in the sys·t·~em thE! minister has become so experl in.
Ot.lt of this pr·otJi.nci.al. monE~y, I wo u 1 d s a y , for t he 1 a s t t h r e e years thc-:~1"e has not bE:H"Hl orw CE!nt out of the $120 million spent in the last. thrE:H:~ years · this :is the:~
fourth year now - not one cent of ·this provincial mont~Y has been spent on the Burgeo Road.
As the people from Bur9eo and Ramea told the minister whE!n they h a d t. h (!! rn E:~ f:~ h i n g IAJ"i. t h h "i HI "'i. n D E!! ~H'
Lake, they really did . not ElXpect h "i. rn to t a k e co?. v e r· y c e n t of t h <-:~ $ 4·0 million e~nd put it on the Burgeo Road, or 80 percent of it.
They sai.d r.t rc"~asoni.·\bJ.e fi.gure IAIOUld bE~ SOrTIE~· th':ing likE:1 5 percent: o f i t o n i:\ n -r., n n 1 1 r:l J. b i~ s :i. s , IJJ h i. c h would pave four or , five kilometres a y e rH' . E tJ e n t u a l. l. y , IJJ I'Ho! n t h e sE:~condary r·oi.'l.ds agt"eement was s .L g rHo! d '"'ri. +: h t h e f ~'' d e r· a J. goveniiTIE~nt, they would then be in n po~;it:-i.on +.:o hHtJ(~ Lhe r·oad finished in a very shor'l: time.
Who.t he~s happenE!d now is IJJe have had t h i. s fa rn i. n e for t h ~~ l i.H> 1':. f o 1.1 r• yE:1ars 1.11hen it comes to paving on the Bur9eo Road. With 'l:he $11 million left, I think it IAIOUld bEl only fitt:i.ng l'lOIAJ 'if the~! rni.nist.el" dE!Cided he would do the right and honourablE?. th.i.ng and t.hl':~ fi:itJ.r thing and say to the people of Burgeo, if thc"'Y hi:ld 90tt<~n thc:li.r· r'ights, they would have had at least $8 million spent on their road over the last four years .
L21J.90 Mi:ty 31., 19138 lJol XL
0111: of i:his rH:~x-1: $1.1 milLion coming, I would expect it to bEl a tH~ r y s h o r t l. i. s l: 1.1J:i. t h · $ 8 · m i 11 i -d n -being put into the Burgeo Road . Thr.tt IA)OIIld bE:~ rdtr· iHlcl IAJOl.lld ensure this road is looked after.
As the rnin:is·ler is aiJJaln(':!, I arn s 1 1 r· ("1 , :i. 1.: J !> I·~ h <:l l o n 9 (o! ~> l': c o n t i n u o 1.1 s gravel road in the Newfoundland, i:tnd thE! conl~r:i.bui':. ion !Tldclo by thE! 6,000 taxpayers who live in Bur•g·eo, Rcunei~, Gr·c-:~y Ri.vc"~r and Francois is significant as far as thi.s Prov:i.ncc"~ i.s COI'lCElr·m~cl. It. J.s only fair they gE!t a return for t:he l'.: i'lX dollar·s th<:~Y i:H'e contributing to improving the economy of this Province through their working in the fish pJ.ant, catching Fish and processing ':it.
I was in Francois over the weekend dnd one of th~:! Jlli!l:i.n concElt'I"'S of the people in Francois, who are no I~ d :i. r· e c l: l. y h o o lw d u p t o l: h E:1 road, but the question they ask y 0 ll i:lll. l: h (~ t i.liH!! J S : H OIAl C 0 I'IW
there has not been any money spent on t: h El B 1 J r g eo R o '" d 1~.1 ~HHl IAH:l h a v c;, a government that can spend $22.5
rn:i.ll.Jon on a lt9ht: "i.n t-.h<o! sky, not a pie in the sky, Cl light :in the s I< y in Mo 11 n 1.: P e c\ r·l. 1.11h t 1 I':~ JJJE:1 , hE! r· e in Fl"ancois, Grey River·, RatnEla otn B 1.1 r· g e o , h ;:·\ v (:~ no 1.: g o L ['I d <~ c El n t I" o ad to drive over? If this is pr·tor·-Lty of gov<~lnnrnent: and they could spen-t $22 million ·l:his way, 1.r.1hy, for· l:h("~ li:\st foul" year· s , ha s the government not seen fit to put one cent into psvi.ng the ~urgeo Road?
For that re,ason, Mr. SpE!akE!r, thE!Y ft::H~l t.h~~Y ar·e not. being fair·ly treatE!d, and they fElel this j . s the t: :i. rn <~ f o r· t h El 9 o v e r· n rn E!l n t rn ''! n 1 b El r s oppositE! to pay atlElnt:ion to thE! plea of tho petition. Those people are dreadfuJ.ly concerned.
~heir very lives are in danger
No. '1·6 H21J.90
when they have to go on this r· o ad . For t hat r e 1:1 s o n , M r . Speaker, they are asking the mtni.ster·-To no1.u mak<,1 soJn<,1 of the pl"ovincial funding avaiJ.able to go to ·!:. h (.;! B U r g E'W Road t h :i s y E:HH' ,
rather than wait and get up and t a 1 k a b o u ·t. a n 111 u s 'i o n a r· y secondary J"oads agr'E!ement, which se ~Hns to be drifting fdrthE:H' and farther off because they cannot gE!t a deal '.'in pl.c:u;e to sell th~~
railway. For thJs reason they are as ldng thE:1 rn'i.n i. stE!r to nOIAl h;:we ,:, serious look at putting money into funding the Burgeo rocld.
To conclude, Mr. Speai<E-H', I only s t:-l y , a ~; i: h e FHW p 1 <-) o f B 1.1 r g e:1 o s r:-l y at H1e end of this petition, they o n l. y ;;:~ s k {': o b <~ 11 t: r· e ':" t o d f r'l t r· 1. y i.'t n d tAd l h I" e s p E:1 c t a n d d :i g n i t . y . 11
,SOM[ HOI\J. r'1FMB F. RS : I-lOCAI", IIE:li.'ll"!
MR. LU~3H:
Mr·. Speaker·.
MR. SPF.AKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North.
MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, it is a great p r· J. v i 1 e g e d n d a g r· e:1 61 t h o no u r· t. o fully endorse and wholeheartedly s u p p or· t t hE! p 1'::1 t i U . o n p r• e s e n 'tc~! d b y my f r· i e n d a n d c o J. l e a g l.lE! , t. h E! rn e:1m b <:1 r· f o r B t.Jr' g c,1 o B c1 y d ' E ~' p o .i. r (Mr. Gilbert), a petition pr'C'!Seni':.c::!d on b~~half of const:ituc-:1nts from his district r'E!CIU<"!st'.Jng COI"r·~~cl'.Jvo r·,nd r·euH~ri"i.•:·11
i:J.cl::ion be ·!::i:~ken on thE! Burgeo I~ o r:-1 c:l . T ~> 11 p p o s r,' , M r· . S p c;! a k cc! r· , t h ~=! r· E! j s n o ·!: i::l r· o 1:1 d :i n t h e P I" o 1; .. i. n c r~ IAJ h .J. c h h i:·l ~; s o n 1 d n IJ !; u p ~~ J" J. a t :i. v e s a t. t. a c h e d t o :i '1:. a s t h E! n I I r· g f: '! () R () c:'l d . T ·1·: -i. s c e r· i.: ,,, '.'i. n J. I) () n (! of the most publicized roads in 1'. h c;! P r· o 1; "i. n c e , d n d 1'. h a t. "i. ~; C!'::11"ta:i.nly a t .r'.ibutE:1 to ·!:hE! ITIE!rrlbE:!r, .
L2491. May 31, 19BB Vol. XL
publicizing the conditio11 of that road.
SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!
MR. LUSH: I ·t has h c::t d i: h ~1 rno s t. r· e p r· l':' s E:1 n tat: .ion probably E!Ver madE! by any s-:LngJe 11!ernbe:1r in this Hou~H! f o r l'.:he Burgeo Road. Mr. SpE!aker, it is c o r· t a i n l. y d r· o ad t h a t h a s h a d I I woul~ say, more petitions p r· <,1 s <:1 n t. ~=! d i. n o n c,~ s t n f::J l. c,1 s ~1 s s 'i o n than any other section of road in t. h e P r· o 1; i. n c e .
Mr·. SpeakE!r', if the govE:1rnrnent take no action in term ~ of acquiescing to thE! l"eqUE!St of the pc,1oplc~ fr·orn t.:hi:,t·. d :i.~;+: r·i. ct, t:h("1 people from Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir, -i_L: IAI "i.ll C~)r''l.:<:,::i.nly be no I"E:~flect.:i.on
o n U·H;! me rn b ~n· .
SOME HON. MEMBERS : H e cH' 1 h ~~ iH' !
MR. LUSH: It will certainly be no refle c t'ion on the member but it will be a s E:1 r· 'i. o u s r· E! f 1 <"! c t t o n o n L h ~~ n E! g l ~=! c t of the provincial government.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: H ~~ d r· , h e a r· !
MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, over thE! IJE:1ars :in I"~'!CILIOSI.: i.ng go,;<,l r'nln~:! nl'.: to pr·ovJciE! the criteria they use for· lJ p g r· c:·' d .. i. n g i.'l n cl p <:1 lJ -L n q o f r· o a d s , invariably they talk about r· e ~; o 11 r· c e ~; . M r· . ~) p (,~ ,:\ k <;! r· , d g a i. n , .i r· we are talking about resources, t h t-:~ r· n ·i s no l'. ;:-' r· o a c:l i. n t: h ~=! Province that meets the r'C!\:jlli . r·oJIIE!n ·l ·. ~; F'OI" t:hdi··. par·t. "i.c1 .1lar· ar·ea rno1"e than Bur·g<;!O Bay d 1 E !; p o :i. r· , 1: h d L p r· o s p o r· o 1.1 ~; -r:- -i. s h ·i. n CJ
i:l r E! a , M r· . S p E! a I< E! r· . T h E! I" ~~ :i s n o t ' 0 c'' S 0 1'1 IAI h y i: h C! r· 0 <:·' d S h 0 I I 1 d b E!
neglected any longer.
1\Jo. 46 R2491
.... .... ·~·-~--"~<- ., ~ ~ .. ~~ -.. ~ .... -----·--'"···-·-····- ,. - ·-.. ~·· - ---~~-- ---~ .. .. -... ~ -- ...... ~ .. - _____ , "--·--.~ ... _:·,,.,. ..... _______ __, -··- ----·--~.- ::·.:-~ -----· :. _,_. -- __ ..:;..!.. ~_.. .. __ ,_ __ -·--·-- --- ._-- ·~·· -· ·-- ------··-
It has been three years, Mr. Speaker, since there has been a plug nic~J~ spent on that road and 1':. h i:•\ 'l: i s 't 0 () 1 1:. () 0 1 0 1'1 9 • w h ~~ t: J. !)
happening, Mr. Speclker·, is the r·o<:1d :is coni'.::inltousJ.y deteriorating. Monies that could h c\ v (~ b C! e n ~; p e n t :i. n r:\ c 0 !) 'L.
E'!ff:ic:ien ·l·: mannE!I" back 'l::hi"E!E:1 yE:~i~l"S
d 9 o d o C! s n 0 1:. e\ p p J. I) L o d 1:1 I) b e c i!ll I !; ~~ -thE~ I"Oi~d :is cons:istE:HJtly and consh:-1.nl~ l.y rlc:1 ter:i. or·r:~i.:ing 1nor·r~ tuld ruo r· E:1 . The cos l to do wo r· k on that r· 0 <:'1 d L h J s lj (:1 r:\ r· J s HI() r· e (:1 X p r:;! n s :i. l) (:1
than i.t was last yer.lr and it is 9 0 .in g 1:. 0 b ('! 1110 I'' C:! 0 X p 0 1'1 S i. l) E! n l:1 X 'L year that· i '\: t.uouJ.d have been this y ear· • a n d s o .o n .
Mr·. Spc:1ak<-H'. i.f the government i.s intent on spending money wiseJ.y, they would bE! ve:1ry pr·udE!I'l L to dct upon that road irnme!diately, to meet the reasonable request and the reasonable demands of these indus tr·i.ous, har·d1.uor·ktng pe:1opl.r:1, people, Mr. Speaker, who make thtd.r· living basically fr·o11t prosecuting the fishing industry o f t h i. s P r· o lJ i. p c c~1 . M r . S p e a k e r . 'i t is most important the road be p r:-1 v C:! d a n d 1.1 p g r· e1 d (:1 d • or· u p g r· c:t d (:1 d and ready for paving as quickly as possi.bJ.e.
I l "i. s t.IITF or· t: t.II'Jr:-1 h~ . a'l ncJ r F (~ r:' l :.or-ry fo1" thE:1 mE~rnbet" and I fEH1l s o r· r· y f o r· 1:. h f.! r· r~ s t d (~ n l s of B u r· g eo
Bay d'Espoir to see no '" ll. o c ,~, l. ·.i o n o f 1- 1.1 n d s t o UJ"i. s p o i n L in t:ii'IIE! fol" one b:it of gl"ad:ing or· o n e '.i. n c h o f u p g r· ~~1 d '.'i. n q o n l. h c;! I"Oad.
Mr. Speaker, the minister cE~ r't.ainly .1.~; CliAJdl''f~ of +Jw situation and I hope when the rn ·:i. n .i. s t E~ t ' s t:. a n cl s .l. n h J. s p 1. a c l~ t. o s p e a k to Ud s p e t i t i o n hE! tAd 11 bE! ab1C:1 l:o SclY sornel::hJ.ng I.•.Jh:ich tAJil1
give some hopE! to thE! rE!S:l.dEHJts, to thc"1 taxpayc:1l"S, th(!! · hc:tr·d workers, of &urgeo- Bay d'Espoir.
L2492 MRy 31., 19813 Vol XL
Mr. Speaker, I was impressed with a phrC\se in tht:'lt pt?.'l::i'\: :ion, and I suppose it is more than a · phras·e, i i :. 1. ~; a s E~ n t: o n c o . T h E!! y a s k E! d 1: o be treated with dignity and r· (~ s p o c 1: . M r· . S p e:1 ~ k o r· , t h a ·L :i. s n o t asking very much, to be treated lAd. 1:. h d '.'i. g n "i. l: y r:-1 n d r· t~ :; p r~ c: 1· ..
l , L o o , pl. n r:\C:I IAJ'.i L h L h o 1 fl"i. n :i. s t e r· L o
ensuJ"e that ·that is done, to ens1tt'F.! Lhi:ll: l: he fl (:1 oplE! of Bur·gc:10 Bay ·d'EspoJ.r· and thE! pE!tiUoner·s. r"l r . s p (:1 d k l':H' I t. 0 c:l r:l y I <:1 I" 0 J n d (!! 0 d treated with dignity and r'e s pe ct:.
-and l.: he rrdn"i.s l :(H' IAJOt .t ld today announce his concern by stating to 'I:Jw Tllelrlb!::H' hc~1 i.n+:. E:Hld~; to take SOrrlE! action on the road in this fiscaJ. y (?. ii\r' .
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. DOYLE: M r· . S p e a I< e r· .
MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the of T r· an s pori:. a L t o n .
MR. DOYLE: My remarks t.uill be qui ·te brief on 1'. h 'i. s p <:1 1'. J. i·. -i. on , b (:1 c au s (~~ I h a v ~! responded to that sarnE!! pE!tition on r•ll : 'l.t:1 (·1 !>t·. thl"(!(! or· lTir~lybC:! four· differ'E:1nl: occas:lons OV(;~r· thE! J.a s t coltplrc! oF months dur·:J.ny lAJh'i.ch I have been Minister of T r· a n s p o r· t: a 1:. '.'i. o n .
r"l r· . s p E1 '"~ k r~ r· • c:-1 ~; T h i:l v r:! 1. n d J . c i:'t t e d to the hon. ITlE!I'TlbE!r on a l'lt..HnbE·r· of d "i. F F t~ I" e n +:. o c c i:il ~; j . o n s • IAJ e • a ~; a department, are very concerned a b o l.l t. L h Co! B u r· g E~ o R o a d . I ind.icated to hirn bE!forE! thE! reason no IAJOI"k has bE~~:!n undE:!r'Lc1ken on lhr::! BurgE!O Road in the last coupJ.E! of y E~ a r· s ·i. s IAH~ d ·:J. d n o t h a v e ·.:i. n p J. a c e a secondar·y roads agreE!HlE!nt . WE:! tAJi.ll • h OIAJe v o , .. , as I h a v ('! t:. o 1 d t. he ITIE!mber before, and again and again
No. I.J.6 R2492
.. ~--·-··-- ... -.-·- --- ·-.--- - . - ....... _ ... _ --
and again ··- speaking to the member i. s s om e Ud. n g 1 i. k o t r y i n g l: o p i . c I<
up Mercury with a fork, it is Vl;!r'y, vor'y d'i.ff'i.c11l.t i.ndec:1d i.:o 9~11:: th1nough l:o him we will kE,ep pushing for a greater 1euel. oF federal involvement in capital f u n d .i. n g s o t. h ~~ s (;:1 1 tH' g r"' p r' o j Co1 c t. s , likE! thE! BurgE!O f~oad, can bE' completed.
The r· e is a b so 1 u t . e l. y no IAJa y , as I have again indicated to the member on a number of different occasions, no way the provincial government can undertake an expenditure that large. It is go-t ng t,o cos l~. appr-ox :i.mr.1 t:c~ J. y $30 ·Lo $3 5 million to complete the road . 01.1 r' pro IJ i. n c :i.i'\ l. Cdpi. t<.·\ 1 pr'ogr'd.rnnw is in l:he:1 area of $40 miJ.lion. So .i. t . rn i:\ k <:1 :; i 1.: IJ t:! r' y I I) c;, r' 1J d i. f ·f 'i. c ' 1l. 1~. :lrtcloPd to finish off cl p1"oje:1ct. Li k C'! l.:i'w B til" g eo f~ o ;;u:l lAd. L h o u 1·. ,;\I'll)
fE:!d~:!l"i:lJ. :i.nvolvcoHTI~Hd .. So IAJe t..uill con l. i. n 11 E! I M r' . S p e ;:\ k E~ r' , t: o p 1.1 s h for' a secondary r'Or..'lds c!gr-eemE,nt.
T. dirt ast::oundc~d SOifiE:1t .. i.mes IAJhc~n I hear' mE:Hnbers opposite stand up and t R l. I< c:\ b o 11 1: t: h e "i. r d i . s t Y'i. c t. s . 1 f you tAJel"e a v'.isi.tor ·to the' galJ.er'y for' 1·.: h e:1 f .i. r' s t t l me you 1..uo u l d get the impression not a penny is bE:,"i.ng sp<::~nt i. n tnernbE:1rs 1 d.i.str-:ict.:s opposih1.
J u s t a s a n :i n d .i c a t t o n o r 1..u h a t. .i. s being spent in the district of B u r g e o B a y d 1 F. s p o :i r' ~w c,H' s 1. n c e this gover-nrnE,nt Look office back i n 1 9 '/ B 1 9 7 9 , y o 1.1 h a d $ ~i . 5 million spE,nt in the district of BU1"9e!O F3i::tY d 1 F.:s~>oi.r' by t.he Department of Tr~nsportation and s 0 ITI<"1 F f'! de r' r:·\1 :i. n v 0 l. v ~:!1110 n t. i:•\ s IAJe 1 J. ; :ir1 1979 1980 t_.her'E! IAJi'..'IS $8 tWi.l 'l. :i.on ~;p~~n ·t. l". hc~r' P; :i.n 19BO 1 9 8 1 , $ .1. , 1) 1:,4, 000 s p E:' n t.; :in 19 8 2 1983 1 $673 1 000; 'i.n 1983 198~~
$2~4471000; in 1984 1985, $3 I /. 6 9 I 000; i:t nd :i. n 1. 9 8 r> 1. 9 a 6 I
$1.3 million, fo1" a tot~l. of $27
May 3 1 , 1. 9 1!8 \Jol. XL.
mi 11 ion ever since this government took officr~ back :i.n 1979.
f"ir. Spc.:16.tkl;,r, the Bur'ge:1o Road hiH; always been high on thE! l'isl: .insofr.lr as thi.s gOlH!r'I'HnE:Hlt. Js conce,rnE!d. It has always bE,en tncl.uded Jn the departmenL 1 s J.isting to the federaJ. gOVE!lnnrnc:~nt:
E! v ~~ r' s 1 n c e 1 9 7 9 I IAJ h (! n t h <"! 1 in I< L~Jc.l s completed . It has to bE! clE!i:H'1Y understood, a~; I sd:id be:1fore I HlE! Prov-ince cannot u nde rta k e a $3 2 million pt'OjE:1cl: on i.l~.s OIAJI'l . Sorne federal involvement will be l'W G E~ S S iH' y .
~:>o, ''lith these t..uor-ds, Mr'. SpeakE:1rl I conclude . I will respond to the g c:1 n 1: J. C::1 rrk\ n 1 s p c~ t j_ t. i. o n :i n IAJ r' .i 1: . .i n g when it comes to my office .
Ml~. SPEAI<F.R: n r· "-' t: he r' e d n y r 1 1 r t h r~ r' p e 1·. t 1.: "i. o n s ?
0 0 0
MR. W. CARTER : M r' . S p c-?. a k e r' .
MR. SPEAI<ER : The han. the mernbE! r for TtAJ'.i.ll in g a t. lo~ .
MR. W. CARTER : M r' . S p ~~a k C:H' I I b c.;~ g 1 e c:w E! , u n cl e r' the provision of Stand'.ing Order 23 1 t-.o JIIOVC:1 UH:~ cu~joul" nHIE! n l: of t hE! House to debate a matter of urgent public 'i rnpor'l:i;\nC(~ , namely l'.hE! . pressing and urgent n ee d to r't~<;\ct"i.IJdi.:(~ the F:i. sh plant.!; J.n St .. LcUAJrencE! and Lat.~JI'l in ordE!r to r:-\ l. l. Co~ IJ :i. r:'l 1'. e::1 t . h H s (;! r' J. o 1 J s s o c i. i:l l a n cl economic impact on the , .. ,ppr-ox i .rni·\l'.C:!l.y :;oo -r:-.i.sh plant workers and fi s hermen and their r,:HriJ. J · i,c.:! ~) drlc:l on l'. he COlflllllll'l "i.i.: .. i es, rls a tAJholel affc"'ct~:,cJ by LhE· :>l'llll:c:IOIAJI'l or l'.h~~ Sl:. l.. aiJ,Jr'(;!J'lC(~ iHlcl
Lat..un p1iHILS; and also to debatc:1
i\1 () . II.() R21J.93
-•••• .. ·--~~-•~•'· lo ... - ._ - •••·-~-·, • ••••-i,.;, __ •,.,.. _., , _., • . - .... ~-~· .. • _ . _.,,_, , ; .••• ,•:.: .. _.:. .~ '--~ • ..,...._. •. o,',., , :_.:·.~·••'-·•·- ... ·.u~ .. ,-. ,;·,;,~.lo-o-• •• ·- -< • ·-·~•·I• ,. -• .,_,.,.. ___ •• - ·-- _ ,_._ ·---- - •
the future operation of the fish pr·ocessing plants in Rose Blanche~
and Port aux Basques, owned by the s i::t m c,~ p r·- r r1 c :i. p R 1 , ~~~ h ~~ r· (~ p r· o b 1. (~ rn s appear imminent, thereby t.: h r E:~ a {~ E:~ n :l n 9 t h e c,1 c o n o rn ·i. c IJ .1. a b i J. i 1·.: 1J of the communities in question, a n d !; p f.! c "i. f :i. c c~1 1. ly l. h (:~ l. ""i. IJ E! l. i h o o d o f ctppr·oximately 1, 000 fish plan 1:
ll..r.JOY'kE!Y'S c~lnd f"i.sher'lriE!t'l.
MR. !HMr'IS : Ml~ . Spea I< e1n.
Ml~. SPFAI<f.R: The h o n . 1.: h c:! Counci].
MR . SIMMS: Mr. ~3pl,~r.1ke:~r, cl.t:1i~rl.y l:ho ini:EHJ"I~ of that Standing Order is to provide a n o p p o r· t u n .i. t y f o r· rn c-:~ m b r::~ r• s +: o participate in an urgent debate. I do not have to clte all the re:~ferences for Your Honour. They have been c:i.ted rnany t.irnes bE!for·e in this particular case and I am sure Your Honour would not want to rule on a matter like this if he felt there was some serious consideration to be given ~..r.Jithout
p r o b i:'l b l. y r· e c (~ s s J n 9 G\ n d r· l'! s e a r• c h "i. n 9 all the items anyway.
The urgc-:lncy r·E.~ 'hH'S to the urgency of d"!bdtc~, not t hE! -j.rnpor'l: r:·1n Cl:! of t h c,~ :1 ~;sue . 0 b v :i o us 1 y t h l s mat.: t e r h d s bE! l~! n on go 'i. n 9 for· l> ornE:~ t J rn c,~ .
~3o it is not. qu:it:.E! in ·l: haL nol"rnal c d l'. ~~ g o r· 1J , c o I'' l : .:·l :-i. n J. IJ n o t :1. n s 1 1 c h d
~;ensc,~ ills j.t shouJ.d be-:! l"UlE:~d t:hat c:\ ll. t . h (;! r' 0 S t . 0 F ·I: h (! b I I S J. 1'1 0 S S 0 !tho Hous e be put as:idc,~ t:o aJ.lo1..r.1 I: h -L ~> k :i. n d o f 1:1 d r.~ b a 1.: (o! l". o o c c 11 r' .
I j u l; 1". l'fld k e +.: h o l> n par·+:. i c 11l i.'l r· cornmc:!n-l:.s r·ea11y, bE!Cause I think .i. L t s rn c.H' e a n i:,1 1.: t·. (o! rn p t. L o ·L: r' IJ L o score sornE! pol:i.'L"ical points rr.~·Uwr
than anything else .
MR. TULK: Mr . S.peake!r.
L2LI·94 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
MR. SPEAKER : The hon. tho member for Fogo .
MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I regret very much U1e:~ ~; ta t.~~me n t s mad o by t h<:1 Government House Leader "in his poJ. nl". of or·dE!r', ·t:hr.1t. t:hc:! rnetnb(o!l' ' for· Twj.J.lingate i s rising jt.Jst to :; c o r' u ,;, f ~~ to~J c h ~~ .:l p p o l. :i I: ·:i. c r:·l l. p o J. n t: s or a few political points, I ·Lhink :i.s · l..r.lho~t hE! SH"i.d . II ·. "i.s not thE! rei:is·on . The truth of UH~ mr.d:tE!I" ·1 . ~;, dnd 1 r'(:~rr,~r· Yo1tr' Honour· Lo Section 286 and 287 of Beauchesne, r:•\ :; 1.: 1'1 (C! Go\) (,H' 1'11'11('! n L H 0 1.1 s C:!. L ~:!ad e Y'
satd, I know you are wc,~ll awar'E! of l:.h·i.s rnr:-ll.:l:er·, bu+.·. fl(o!dltCh(~sne st.at.c~s
the matter must be so pressing 1".: h H t p I I b l. i. C i n t c:! r• (,~ S 1: IAI :i. ll. S ll f f E! Y'
if it is not giVE!n immediatE! !.·1-l:. l:E:~n t. ·.i.on.
NotAl, sur·r:~ly t:h(!r'C::! J.S· no IAJay "i.n arguing if the matter of thE! cl.o~>tlr'c~~ of thE:~ those-:! fidl planb~
is not given immediate att:E!ntion, ·t h a t t h e:~ p u b l. i. c i. n t e r· E:~ s t: s 1..r.d 11 n o l: suffer. Surely there is no way thctt you can ~rgue that ls the case.
The fishing season is here . ThoSE! plc:1nts <:1r'E! c:los(,~d. Those people have no plaCE! to sell thc:d.1n fish. T h 1;! h on . g l;! n L J. u rrtd n :i. ~; CJ 11·i L e r' .i. g h 1: under tha ·t section to introducE:! t I·J'i. ~; .
T h n 0 1·. h e Y' t : h :i. n 9 J. ~; t h C:~ !> I I b j (;! C t: must bE! bl"ought on E:~ai"1Y enough, r:·l n d p l.l b l. "i. c: ·i. n h,H' (~ :; 1-. d E! rfkll'l c:l S t·. h cd:.
discussion take place :i.rnrned:i..:·\ 'l": E!l.lj ' . r'lr'' ~:)pedl<or· I 1-:.hd 1.: i.s section 287. Surely the pubJ.ic J. n l: r.=! r· (~ l> +·. d ('! m n n d ~; t h d t·:. c.·\ cl e c ""i. s ·i. o n be madE!, that this HousE!, tha ·l~
+: h :-i. s g o v '~ r' n rn e n L·. I k n o IAJ L h C:! member for Grand Bank would c C:! r· t i.·\ -i. n l y a g r' e <:! t: he c 1. o s u r· e of those fish plants :in St. LaiAJY'E!I'lCC::! d eTIIiHld l> IAl"! ta I< E:~ . .1. l'lliTH~d J at. e i3. C t i 0 n in this House, because otherwise
No . IJ.6 R2494
.... ..,w,_,.., __ ., ,. .• ..., _ ___ , ___ .,~u----•.-,...,_._,. _,,.,. ____ , -•- .. , .. .,, •--· •• ·-•• . ,..., --• •-• .,_
the f j s hi n g s E:1 a s o n t..ui 11 be o v e r i:\nd gone, i.r 1..11e cn·o goi.ng to 1..u;~dt
for· Hd.s gouer·nment. to c,d ther call H1 e 11 11 d g-~~T S p ~~ c;! c h (H' t: i·H~ T h r· o n o s p ~~ E:~ c l·t to h au e r..t deb i:ll e . We are i.nt.o lc~gi.sla.t:-i.on. They t;,Ji.ll. hi:ltJl-:1 to have Meech Lake and, tJJho knows, "i. '1:. rn i g h ·1~. t. d k E:! IAI E:1 ~=! k s ii\ n d , :i. n d e e d 'i. f this House stays open, even tnonths. Wc"1 could bf! inl:o July and t h o s e f i s h p 1 ant s wo u 1 d s t i 11 bE! closed if tAle are going to t;,Ja i.t to see what is happening.
So I M r . S p c,~ a k e r· I i. t 1. s c r· i 1:. "i. c a l . The u r g !Ut c y of d e bate c a n no t be deni.ed herl,1. It must bE:1 dorH:~
today and done immediately.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hl"~dr 1 hE~ar!
M f~ . S P U~. K E R ( M c N i. c h o J. d2.l : Ot"dE:~t", pJ E:!asc,!!
T Htrt pr·~:~ p~1 r·c~d l'.o d 0~11 '"ri l": h l~h 'i. ~;
ma tler· notAl. 1 would 1 i I< e to point otJ L tha l:, nt.llnbE:H' onE:1, Lhc:! moti.on :i.S out of Ot"dc·:'!r'. I wouJ.d refer h on . trtf:1rnb E:H' s Lo our· S tcu1d -L n g Or·rl ,,H' 23, SE!tt.ion (f) subsr:1ctlon (2): 1 1\Jol.: ntor·o thi:l ri onc:1 rnat:i'.r::!t' Cc·ln be distussed on the same motion. 1
Thl"1 hon. rnemb1::1r has pr·opoSC::1d tt;,JO rnat·l:C::!r·s hC::H'e.
Sr:1condl.y 1 I would li. lu:! +:o qtwb::! f r· om B e a u c he s n E! , t he o n E! t he h o n . rn e ITI b E! r· q u o l'.·. r:~ d , S E:1 c t. i o n 2 8 'l o n p a q e 92: 111 Urgency 11 tJ.tithin tl'd.s rule doE:1S not apply to UH~ rnatl:.1::1r :itself, but IT!E'EHlS 11 urgE1ncy of cl<,1bal:e 11 1
• As hon. rn(,1trttHn·s knot.•.l, therE:1 arE! opportunities 011 thE! Ot"ciC::H' Papi::H' to dec:'ll tJJ.i.l::h +:he::1 mattE! r· , the Add res s in R E! p 1 y and t. h <~ Budge 1: S p u ~~ c h . T h ~~ rtld L t e r· is not in ordE'r.
Orders of the Day
1.21~91) lJ o l X 1 ..
MR. TULK: Mr·. ~1per.lk<·H', just poi.n l.: of clarification .
AN HON. MEMBER: You i:lr·~~ que::1s'i'·.'lon:i.n9 th~=! SpE!akc;!Y' 1 S
ruling?
MR. TULK: No, no, I am nol~. quE~st .. i.on'inq l":.he Speaker -
MR. SPEAKER: Th1::1 hon. the mernbE!r for Fogo.
MR. TULK: ..: jusi:: l:hE! fclcl:. t..hat Your Honour ruled there were t.wo mattE!rS hE!rE! l~.o b<,1 debated. Thl;! tr·ul'.:h of thE! matter is we are talking about one company here anrl the specifics are two or thre!e fish plants OIAtnE!Cl by Uli-l L 01'1("1 COI'tlpi:HlY.
AN HON. MEMBEr~:
'( 0 I I iH' f:1 0 1.1 '1:'. 0 f 0 r• d EH' .
r.IJR. TULK: I am not - questioning him, I ~m
j 11 :> 1'. p o ·i. n t: ott l L o h :i.trt i: hat i:. h "i. !; -L s thE:1 case, that indeed thE!Ine L~tas 110
r'E:1r:'lson J do not be1i<:1 Ve 1".0 1"ulr::1 him out of order on that point.
MR. SIMMS: Order 121 Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER : Or·der 12 .
The hon. l:hl:1 has six minut:es
MR. FENWICK: S:i.x rn.inutE!S?
MR. SPErlKER: ---------·--Yes .
rrt (,1JTI b E:! r· ] E!ft.
For· Menihr:1k
Tho hon. the rnE:!rrtber· fot" Men:i.hE:!k .
MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, M~ . Speaker .
1\Jo. 11.6 r~ 211.9 5
I just want to sort of summarize a few comments. Qui.te fr·ankly, i .t is interesting that during Quest.-i.on -veri.od and i.n t'~::1sponsf~ t.o questions asked yesterday -
MR. TULI<: 0 n 1:1 p o J n l o f o r· d e r , M r . S p e a k (;H' •
MR. ~1PUli<EI~:
Ordc·H', pleaS(;1l
(l p o j_ n t. o f o r r:l e r· I 1.: h <:1 h o n . 1-: h c,1 lliE:HIIbE:1r for· Fogo.
I'-1R . . TUI .. K: Ml". ~3pE:1aker·, befcH'C->. the Govc,1rnrnenl Hoi.IS<·~ l. oadc;!r' l(~c:·\lJC:1~;, r I;JOIIl.d J.·i.kn to br·Jng something to hts c\ 1:: 1.: e n 1'. :i. o n I "i. F [ lflt"l y a n cl h e -.i. ~;
l:i.stf~ning ·-and that Js the matter IAJe jusl: bro1~ghl:. up IAJC'! b~:~lJc,1lJE:1 'i.s ur·gent C~nd I lAJould ask him no!AJ if he would flrst cdll elther the Budget SpeE:1ch or any other· motion or b lJ.l on the 0 r· d E:H' P a p EH' to discuss this matter in St. LcUJJr•ence:1, Por·t aux Basqucc1S, Rose Blanche and so on?
MR. SPEAKER: 0 r· d 1::1 r , p 1 ~;:1 iH 1::1 !
MR. SIMMS: No , r"l r· . S pea k EH' . WE! h i:W 1:~ r:-1.1 r· o ad y called the Orders of the Day.
MR. TULK : Oh! St. L. i~IA.IY'E:~I'lCE:1 is 11 () ·[:
:i.lnp<H'lt!lnt, i. s i.l.:.
MR. ~3JI'-1r'IS :
To ·H1 cl.l s am e p o :in t . The h on . . liiE!iflbc;!r'~' iH'C:! cl.t~cH' l.y c:lo i ng Ol'lC:1 ' +:h:j ng, Ml". SpCc!c~kc,1r, t.l'·y:i ng to pl.ay
p o 1 t t :i. c s i:\ n cl not h :i. n g ('! J. s E:! , no 1··. h -:i. n g TT101"(:1'
MR. Tl.l LK : Oh SL/1"(,1 !
MR. SIMMS : There are opportunities. WE! had
L2496 May 31, 19 8 8 Vol XL
thirty today. on St.
minutes of Question Period Where were the questions
Lawrence?
MR. LONG: Rtght here.
MR. TULJ<: lU.ght dOIAIJ'l ther·e.
MR. SIMMS: 1\Jone.
I rest my case, Mr. Speaker .
Ml~. SPF~KE:l~:
Order, please!
There is no point of order.
The hon. the member for Menihek .
MR. FENWICK: T h c;! a n s IAJ f~ r· 1:. o · 1':. h o Go v E'! r· n 1 n e n t H o u s (;! Leader's question, although :H: is rhetorical, 1 s that questions on the St. LawrencE! plant and thE! Port aux Basques one did come today, and they came from us . WE! asked lAJ~H~r·o FPI lAJas, becc:wse Lhey are the origin of the who1e p r· o b 1 e 111 d OlAJI'l t. her· o .
SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE~i:lr, hear!
MR. FENWICK: H OIJ,)C,1lJ ('! r· I rJtr· ' talking about r• "i, g ht. i'lOIAJ , summarizE~ the
~3poakc;!r',
private T j u !; L
cornniE!nts
IAI E~ i'l T' E!!
:;chooJ.s lkk't n 1.: t. o
I rnado y E~ ~; i". 0 r· d r:•\ y I !) j_ n c (-~ :r , .. _ h ·i n k t. h E!! y a 1" (;!
appl"opr·:iatE!. Dur·ing the quE!S'L:ion Pr'!t'i.t)d r:tnd Lhe r·e s ponse s in QUE!Stion Pt::1r·:iod OVE:11n thE:1 last COiifll.lc! Or cir:-lyS 01'1 thl:' fr'l"i.lLII"'f'! of
the Har·bingE:1r School., I th:i.nk, h i. t.!J h 1 t g h 1:. e cl t: h t~ n e u d f. o 1" t:. h j_ s lE!g:isJ.ation. And the ciE:!taJ.J.s thE!
lll "i. n :i. !> t e r· p r· o lJ :-i. d e d t: o d a y ''' l. s o g i:'.t u e us an insight into sorne of the IAJO f' S (~ i.•\ b 1.1 S e S 0 f t: h (! p T' i V i.·l t E! S C h 0 01 system. Of courSE!, thE! fact that
1\J 0 , IJ.6 R2496
thE:1 minister· confirmed that indeed the t:ui li.on fee al: th'i.s ins t .i ·tution IAIClS $3,500, and I d s s u 1 n e '1:11 i:1l'. IAJr:-1 s i:l o n o y <HH' c o 11 r· :i e , or· a n j n ~~ rno n l h co u r· s c:1 , or· ton fllO n i: h :; I s 0Hll,1 t hi. rHj () r 1: h .:.J. 1: du1"abon, :i.nd :icatE:1s thc-:l hardship t. h o s ('! :i. n d "L IJ ·J. d 1.1 r'l J. s l: u d t'! n 1·:. s h "' u o t·. o go ·t.hi"Ough once thc:1y C:Hllnoll in par· t i c u l a r· c o u r· s (,, s l i . k c:1 l h t :; . I ·F they hi:ld gone ·l:o a public institution, like the Cabot Institute or any of the other cornmun i. ty collegc:1s in the Province, to take thE! same coursE! o v e r· t h a t p e r ·i o d of t :l me , t he tuition fee wo u 1 d be , I bE~ 1 i eve , around $500. So we at'f:! tal!d.ng, in this instance, of a tuibon fE!e that is seven U.rnc:1s t.hc:1 r:lmount: charged by the particular public instit:ut:ions.
f:) o , t.: h f~ q u e s t -j o n y o 1.1 h r:11J f~ :J. s , W h y IAioulcl an ind'ivldual student go to d p r· i. v a 1:: c:1 j . n s t ... J. i-.11 L :i. o n i r p 11 b 1 'i. c :i n s tit uti on s !Ale r e a v a i 1 a b 1 e?
The iHISidE:1r, of cour·se, l:ies :in the f"' C t i: h r'l L 1110 :; i: 0 f 1'. hI~ p II b 1.1. C
:inst.:ituU.ons, l:i.ke the Cclbot T. 1'1\) L II 1'. i. 1·. n i:Hfd t h Co1 <: 0 Ill Hill n tty colleges, are blocked with s t u d l~ n t s 1'1 0111; 1··. h r~ y h r:l IJ (;1 bJC1-i. 1'. ·i 119
JiGts now, in some instances, r· H qui. r· J n g poop 1 c,1 l: o IAii:-1 :i t .:-1. y lo1 d r· or· two. And if ind:i vidua1 stt~dents are not wi.ll i ng to put i:hoi.r J.ivos on hold for· that pc.;!r·iod of t'imE~,
thE!Y go and takE! th~~lr· chances on a private education rather than, q u 'it E! f r· an k 1 y , IAii:l "i. t. :in g iii y E~ 1:1 r· or whatever would be required.
The other thing that should be n o t. E! d i n t: h d 1~. p a r· t. ·i c 1.1l a r· E! x c h a n g o from the minister was that the Jnd :i.v-Ldu~·\l no1AJ .i~> ot•Jod $1,700, or· $:1.,700 !Alas takNI to pay for the f 'i. r· s l i:.IAH:! l. v ~=! t~H,1l:! k s 1 l:! ducat. :ion . () s the minister d:icl not Table the documetTI'., T i:'lnl not sur·l~ !':.hal·.: I hc.~ve all the dwl:a:i ls cor·rc::1ct.
I_.?. '1·9 7 MHIJ 31., l91lll Vol XL.
But, it seems to rne, that ·that is i J.l. II S i : t• r.\ f: -j. I) c,~ of •~1hat l..r-IE! ar·e talking about here. If tu.1el1JE! IW:1c:1k!> uf C:!diiC.:tl.:i.on co~;Ls ~~1,700,
that is $140 a week that is b(,dng chat'9f)d by l:.hr~~; e 'ins ·l·.i.t:IJt:"i.ons in order to do the education they are :-i. n IJ o l. IJ r-:! d lAd 1·: h , i:1 n d 1·:. h r:1 1:. c 1 ~~ <:·1 r· J. 1J . .i. s a ho1n1nendous surn to haVE! t:o pay f' 0 In r:·1 1'1 (,1 d U C r:'l 1:. J 0 1'1 "i. 1'1 0 t• d (,1 r• t. 0 g ("! C. into our workforce either as a socretary, which t understand is the course involVE!d hE!rE!, or into comp1.1t.er· pr·ogr'c:.\lllln.i.ng or· any of lhe other courses involVE!d here. So I thi.nk that 1s r:'.lnot.h~::1r' examplE! of the problems involved with it .
And, of course, pr·obh11ns, IAih'.ich addressed by the
one of the ha~; nev(,1r' minister or
othE~r
b~:! E! n this
g o tJ l~ r· n HI f~ n t. o r· i':l n y o n f~ <.;! 1: s c"! , .i s h o IAI
do you fJ.nanCE! an E!duca·t:ion l<ik(~·
1:: h d +:. l. f y o 11 h d IJ c~ d n y ,:,1 d d .i l:·. -L o n a l expenses to meet? Because :i. n d :i. IJ i <:111 .:-1 l s go J n g to L hE! p r· 'i. v i:'l t. E!
intitutions rE!ally have to cornrni"L nol: only ·l:h<"! sl:l.ldl~nl: loan l·: hey draw but any student gr·ants thE!Y hr:liJC!; l.:he l~lholt,1 1~101"!<:; J. !; usod up in '\:u:ition fees. And if the"! 'i. n d i IJ ·i. r:l u r.1 l ~; d r· 1;1 n o 1: s 1 1 p p o I" +.·. ~=~ d r:l t home or have a part·-timE! job Ol"
s o HH:1 o t h c,n· s o 1 1 r· c E! of i. n c o 111(,1 , q u i t: r:1
frankly they find it very d :i. F f -:i. c 1 1 l 1.: t. o b C:! a b l. o +.: o c o rn p 1. l:! 1':. e their training and be able to live i. n C1 h <:·11 f' d e C (~ 1'1 t HI r!1 1'1 n (;! t' 1.~1 h :.i. J. E~ training is going on.
So, to summarize, IAIC:1 bE!1J.E!VE! the publ.i.c "i.nst.:itul:.tons, l.ik~1 thE! Cabot Institute and thE! community coll.~~g~~s. should ~wov<icl~::1 the courses required to tr·atn OUI" p (,1 o p l (,1 , a n d 1:: h c1 t L h l~ r· o a s o n a b 1 e expectations of the youth of our Pr·ov ·i.ncr:! shol.tl.cl b('! rnf:!t :i.n these institutions, and that thero ~; h o 111 d no 1':. b f~ '"'a i. t i. n g l .i ~; L s o-r:-inordinate lengths so that they r:1 r· o f o r· c e d L o g o -L n t: o p r· :i. v i:'l 1:. t1 institutions to receive their
1\Jo. '1·6 ~~ 211.9 7
... -: .. _,_:,.... . ~_. _ ...;,.:. . ---·- , _____ ... ' ·•---' • _·,-:_,-...... ' .,_- ~-··- ---· ...... : ...... -···- ·- ··--·' -~-·,_,., _-: ... -.: .~- .• :.:.::. .:_ ~ ...... ·-·-----J .... ~·- ~- ,_,: .. "1...: ;--~l;c-_...__ .. . .
education. position.
If
Tha·t
a
is
lot
our main
of these t n s t 'i.i~. uti. on s spring ·.L n g up , 1. t~. ..1. s a sign of disorder in the public e d u c i:t t i o n s y s t ern a n d ·i. 1: s h o u l. d b e:~ responded to by increasing the numbet· of ~;eats, pul:l:i.ng :in t-t d d i ·U o n a 1 c o lH' s E! s , e u e n if t hey at' e on a tempo r t:t r· y bas J s , t n or· d (~ r· to accommodate the kind of bulge that: occurs.
flE:~cause:1, Mr·. Spc,~Hkc-:H', on(~~ of tho CUI"iOUS things, a;, E!UE!I"ybody k-nObJ!), r~\bou·l~ Ol.lt' (~dUCr:-lL.i.on Slj!)i:OI'Il
j ~; that. thE:~ number· of stt~dents lAW h '" l) r,~ L o cl C:H'I l IAri. l: h ·i. s ·1:. t' (~Hn r:Hl!:l o 1.1 s J. y VCII"j E:~d ·- one yE~ar· we nd.ght hauc-:~ a corl.:d·i.n numbE:~r· or sl:1.1deni·:s, t.he 11ext ye~al" IAJE! may havE~ rnor'(-:'! g r· a d u .:. Lt-:! s t-. o d e "' l lAd I: h , ·1·: IH~ n ~~ x t y~~ar· ITiiHlY moi"E:~ and the yet'lr after· t. hi:\ 1: l: hoy 111 i:-1 y d r· o p i:'l g a 'i. n ; t: h (~~ r· E:~ :i. ~;
a variable list to it which is q u .i t (:~ p r· o n o 1.1 n c t::~ d . I n d e (:~ d , 1..11 h f;! n one looks at the statistics of student:> gr·aduat.'i.ng, on(,~ s~~es that. planning for secondary education like-?. t:h .i.s '.l.s a majot· challenge because we are looking at graduating classes wh'i.ch are becoming smaller and smaller as each yE:~iH' progt·r::~ssc-:~s. HOIAJ l.o~Je
accommodate these students is a v e t' y 1. iH' g ~~ q u ~~ s t i. o n t h a t h H s l:: o ~H~
addrE!S sed. Of course, onE! of the c:·ldVr'\rlt'.dgr~S IAIO hdlJ(~~ J.s 1-.:hat OUr particJpation rate now in p () s 1·.: - s e c 0 n d r•l r· y ~;! d u c d t .. i. 0 n "i, ~; ~; +: ··i. lJ. about t hE:1 10IAte s t: -.i. n Canada, and l::l'lr:·ll.: j_ f' IAU~ C 0 1.11. cJ ·i. 1'1 C t' e d S {;! t:: h t:! par·t:i.cJpat'.ion r'atc-:'!, thoi"E~ st.:ill IAIOUJ.d be i'ln ddOqlli:11·.u J'll.llflbet• of' students to go through our :i. n s t: :i i.: 1.1 l· "i. on:; .
T 'l: h '.'i. n !< IAH'! s h o ul d :; ·1-. J. J. J. p l .:-~ n F o r· 1'1 I 0 l" E~ i'l 1'1 d ITI 0 I" E:~ S 'l:: U d EHl t S a l'l d IAJC,~
shouJrl E'! .nCOUY'd(3E'! +:.hE:!Ifl l:o I;Onl:"i.nuC;! on IAdt:h 'LhE,:i.r . post--sc::~condary aducdtion, whe+:hor iL be
L2498 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
university or community college or I.LJhat.ever.
Having said· that, Mr. Speaker, I still say that th.is is a good piece of legislation, it is an : i. rn p o r ·t. a n t p ·i e c E~ o f 1 t::1 g 'i s 1 a t i o n . It is coming in a little bit ]ate, b11t, fort1tnai::E~J.y, Jl~. 'is bE!l::l:E!r later than nE!UE!r. Be,cause, as lAW
sc:'l.id IJC:~si':.(;,r·day, thE'! uar•iety "i.n l:hE:1 quality of thE! institutions is i:I'H:dr 1110s 1.: notable att:r· ·:ibu·l:.e. Whereas the Har·binger onE! clc,1al"ly hi:\d fi.n•'1nc:i.r:·ll. pr·obl.~:!lllS, thE:!rE~ !.H'E:! other ins ·titut:ions oui: ther·e t.AJhJ.ch 11 i'\ l) o i:\ 1.: o r· r· -i. b l. E~ r· (;! p u ·1·. i:J. 1·:. ·i. o n ; students find that ·thc-:~y haVE! r•er:llly br:!en l.c:!r·r ·i.bl.y b-i.l.kE!d, I guess is the best word for it, b:.i.l.ked :i.n l.:hc~~ SEHJS('! Lhc:\'l: l':.h~~y f.h·~ i.d a lot of money and r•(,~CEd.vc:H~ a J.oiAJ q u ;:-\ J. ·i. t y e d u r; i'l t: ·i. on , on l;! 1.. h H t: lAta s
interrupted, orw that IAJas not on t·. h f~ f c:·\ c :i. l. '.'i. t. ·'i. e s t. h d l. lAtE:! r· E! adVE!rtising and so on. OthE!r i. n s t. .i. i~. u-1.: 'i. o n s , o f' c o u r s ~~ , a r· (,~ a 1 s o extremely I.AJell r'E!Ct::1ived and I meni~.'ioned yt::1s I~.E:H'day, and since the former candidate for Waterford K <-?. n moun i: i. s in t.l-w g a 11. C:H' y t: o clay and is involved IJ.Jith it, I IArilJ repeHt for hls benefit that the Keyin Technical College is onE! of 1-. h E:~ b c;, s ·1·: r· E~ g a r· d e d i. n t. h f:! P r· o u :i. n c e in terms of the priuate -Lnsi:.tl~.ul..ions, and ·J.ndf~Od IAtas vE:,ry highly rated by the suruey done by +·. h e I i o 1 1 ~; c:! 1\ o y ;:·\ l. C 01 nrn :i. s s i . o n l. n l_errns of ·thE! educa ·tion :lt:. cl ('! l t l) t::~ t' (:' d t: () "i. 1'·. s s t: 1.1 d (:1 n 1'.: s . Unfortunately, that was not the C ; ·~ ~; (! IAJ'i. 1·. h r'\ ll 1:: h C! 0 1: h ~'! Y'
inst:ittJtions.
I-IOl.4HWer·, having said that., Ml". ~) p !:~ .:-\ k t:! t' , IAI (;! IAI j_J.l b (-~ ;_,\ S k J. n CJ f 0 r•
amendments when we g8t into C o rmrri. 1'. 1.·. f~ t~ ~; 1·. r::t g r~ . 0 n e o F t·. h t;! seci:ion~; of that par·ticu1al" l n g "i. s 1 d t . ·:J. o n c c:l I . .l :; f o r· r ·i. n u s o F l.l p to $250 for individuals who t) t o J. i:'l t c;! t: h (~ p r· o l) :i. s -:i. o n :; of i 1·:. • lr~ e
No. 46 R2498
~ ... -~ ........ _. ... _, --.&-.- ~---.,..._ ... ___ _. .... ..~ .... --·--~~ -··· .. ----·· .. ·~··-··.....,., ............... :;.o.--~1 ......, ______ .... ~--""·-- .-.. .. -'..;:Jt, ...... ~ .... ·-- ................. _ •. ~ . .... J-. ..... ·-· - ·--··
thLnk this is scandalously low. If you are looking at a several rn i ll. i o n d o l. 1. c:\ r i n d 1.1 s i: r y , IAI ~d. c h 1. ~;
IAJhi:.tt lAI~~ ar·e J.oold.ng at, clearly l) i. o J. c:~ t i n 9 l:. h c,1 t' 1 1l e !> IJJ "i i". h i rn p u n "i. 1 ·. y cHid on] y 9(!tt:Jng a $250 fine j s no lilt:~ r:·\ n s 0 f F l) r c i. n 9 +.: h 0 ~; (~
:inst·:itutions to comply t.uit:h nol: 0 n ·1. y t. h c~ 1.~:' 9 :i S l d t. 'i. 0 n b 1.1 I. I AI. i. 1.: h I: h C:1
l"~:!gUJ ab ons that tAJ:i 11 come down. On J··.hr.1t·: basis, tAle t:h:i.nk Lh<,~
maximum fine should at lE.~ast be in the t'<Hlg~~ of about :r;~;ooo or so, so thC:tt the teeth in the legislat:ion
tAl i. l. l. e n s u r <:1 c om p 1 :i. c:l n c ~~ tAd l: h i. 1·: .
Having sH·i.d l:hat. , Mr. Spt~dkcH', lAH;! welcome the legislation and we are looking forwar-ct t.o i:Hnend.ing i l :i.n the Committee stage. Overall, lAIE! t h i n k i t i s i n t h Co1 be s t :i. n t e r' e s t of the young people of our Pr·ov ince.
MR. SPEAI<ER : The hon. ·the member for Bonav:ista Nor·th.
r..,R . LUSH: Thank you, Mr·. Speaker .
:1 stand to ~:~gain allud~1 to the s 'i.-l:udti.on T. r't'l:i.SE!d -i.n t:hi~; Ho11~>e yc-'!sl.~1rdi:ly, spec:ifica1J y r·elating i··.o t.hn 1-ir"'t"b:i.ng~~r· Sr:hool o-F n us j n ~~ ~; s . It. :i 5 u nf or· t:. una t e , M I" .
s p e r:'l k (:H' I t:: h a t·. 1~1 h CoHl IAH:' (:HII b ,·u· k II p 0 n u E:! n t: t.tr' E:! 5 1 :i b:! l hat , i n v a r· i a b 1 y SOIIIE!borly hi'IS h) bco! bur·nl:. befor·r~ llllc'
tighh'!l1 up thc,1 ]€~g :islatjon. In +.: h i. s p r:\ I" t: -i. c 1.1 J. d r· ~; i. 1: u a ·1:. j_ 0 n I T. rnaintai.n 'it t.uas the slackness and the sloppiness oF government r'E:1gu1ations IAihich a11ot.ued this to happen. Mr. Speaker, lf we are go:ing l:o give students 1oans and asstgn t.:hE:Wl to pt".i. Ui'1b~ schools, T be1iE:we tAlE! haVE! lo ensure that UlE! 1 E:1 g 'i. s l. a ·t .. i. on .i. s s ~~ f f i c Len 1:1. y ·t .. i. g h 1-.
enough 5o :it does not a 11 OlAI
s t:qdt::1nts t.o be gougod and r· ·i.pped off, innocent students as happE!nE!d 'i.n t:hi.s casc,1.
1_2499 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
T. t:hank thc,1 m:i.ni.sJ:~;;1r For h:i.s statement today and I know the rni.ni.:> hH' J.s go'i.ng to look :l.n-·t.o it. NotAl, I could have gone to the rn-Ln ·i.:;l·.c!T' pt''i.l)i::\l.E!ly, a:; T nor·rnal.ly would do on a situation like that, b 11 1·. T b o l. ·i. ''! lJ n rl, fJ! r· . ~3 p (~ .:1 k f:! r· , t. hi. s matte1n should haVE:1 bet::1n madE! p 11 b l J. r: to i.~ 'l t:! I" ·1·. p i:l t' en 1-: ~' , 1.: o <:·l J. ~: ! r· 1:. sbJdents, and to aJ.er·t thE! pubJ.j.c of l.:h·i. :; Pt'OlJ ·i.nco d~> to lAihr:ll:: can happen when we do not have pr·op~H'
1 c,1 g i. ·s l i:l L i o n '1:. o e n s u r· e t.: h fit 1: o u r students are protected. I think all hon. rnHrntwrs IAI"'i.ll agr·~~e lhat that is a terrible thing to havE· he\ppe::H'I r.o somt~body, l::o Hnroll tn a school and through various c Jr· c ums U:Hl Ct.;! s hr:w E! t.o tAJ:i t hd r· aw from that school. The minister s~H:Hne:1d t.o sugge::~s·t. that he did not know that yesterday, but I sp~~ci.Ftcall.y poinl::~:!d out: that thE• mattE!r I was rE!fE!rring l:o had to d o tAri. 1·. h s 1:: u r:l C:! n b; tAl h o IAri t h d r· ~:! 1~.1 . I 1:: had nothing to do with pE!Ople who IAI (.~ In (~ c 0 n t "'i. n l.l J 1'1 g t) n :J. n L h (:1 c 0 l.ll" s ~=! I
it had to do with peoplE! 1.uho IAJi. J~ h rJ t' f~IJ.I •:\ r1 d IAJ h 0 ~) 0 fiiO rl j_ ~ =! S 1.~1!::! r' (-'! s ·t:ill somehow under the control. of l:hr'l 't: ~;chool.. T do no+: knoiAJ all. thE! dE:1l:ails or· 'I:E!Chnical~i.t:i~~s r:\ b C) IIi·. ., 1: I ;:\ n d () n 1:1 d C) E! ~; n 0-1: h <:·l l) (~ t 0
know; all tAle have to know is that !;l·.ud,·:!nl:~; got·. ri.ppE:!cl of-f. R E:! g a r· d 1 C::1 s ~> o f t h E! a rn o u n t , 1.11 h E! t h E:! I"
:it·. ·i.:; $1000, $1'/00 or· $?.000, i . t. was too much for students, unernployt,1 d peopl.r:1 ·l··.r·y-Lng to gc,1l:. ahead in this l:i.fe, to find out 1: I'll:·) y I~JE! t' e r· ·i. p p c.~ d u f -r:· J n Ud. s rnannE!r,
Mln. Speaker, that is why I lnaiSE!d ·t. h 1::1 rna t·. l: ~:! r· , t. o b r' .l. n g .i. 1:. t. o t: hE! attention of the public and, hopE:1ful.J.y, l:. o rn;:,lkC:1 l:·.h~'! gouE?t"nrnent rnore a!Aiar'E! of thE! situation and l.:o Lighl: en up t:he lc,1g-i.sl.at:.l.on .
NotAJ, l i:ll'll nol: ~;ur't::1 that. legislation, in thE! rnE:!antirne,
t:hi.s lAd 11
h c"tl) 0 -1:. h (o1 (:1 f f (:1 c; J-. 1·: h (o! ln:i. 'n •i. s t I::! r·
No. 46 R2499
believes it will have. I am not sure. I think the clause he is counting on is Clause 19 (e), the minister - ·can correct me if I am wrong. I believe it is 19 (e) that he is hoping will protect students in the event there is a financial pr·obl(;!ln or· a bankruptcy, as happened IJJi th Harbinger, and lhat :is to ~~~:we bonds. It says, 11 Requiring regis ·tered private traini.ng insti.tu tions to be bondod in the form and terms and with the collateral security lhat is prescribed in providing for the forfeiture of bonds and the disposition of the proceeds. 11
Of course, Mr. Speaker, it will depend on what levels the bonds will be, what amounts they will be. For example, I understand the Harbinger School qf Business had a bond. Do han. members know how much it was? $1,000 was the bond the Harbinge'r School had, and they had, I believe, seventy students enrolled. That is being properly dis p o s e d of now, but. , M r . Speaker , one does not have' to be a great mathematical ·wizard to determine how much these seventy students wj.ll ge ·t. If ther·e are any other creditors, Mr. Speaker, then these people IJJill. be dot•m to !Jery, vc-:lr'y little.
So this particulAr legislation depends on what the regulations u..lill be, whethc:!ln it IAJ.i1l be:1 s t:i pula ted thcl t the bond wi 11 be sufficient to take care of an event like this . I certainly hope, as a result of the:1 Harbtnger experience,, that ·the minister will make sure that the bond is sufficient to be able to take care of an eventuality as this so that -
MR. MATTHEWS : We had it long before that.
MR. LUSH :
L2500 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
Well, if Harbinger, have it?
it was long before how come they do not
AN HON. MEMBER: This is review legislation.
M~_._LUSH:
I see. Yes .
Mr. Speaker, it is onJ.y if ·that bond i.s made sufficiently high e no u-g h to t a k e care of a 1 1 t h e contingencies, considering the maximum enrollment of the school and this kind of thing, IJJill the student be protected.
Mr. Speaker, I certainly hope the minister will pay attention to this and assure the House that this will take place, that the b o n d s y s t em wi 11 c e r t a 'i n 1 y p r· e v E! n t this kind of thing from happening in the future. Mr. Speaker, :i.f U..IE! can achieve that, then maybe! WE! will have learned a good lesson from the Harbinger situation. But, again, I think the minister agrees, as do I, that it is mos·t unfortunate that any student, be it a half dozen students or a dozen s tudent:s, should have lost any monies because of the way this was set up, any Amount of monies.
I certainly appreciate the fact l:hat the. m·ln:i.ste:H' is looi<J.ng int.o this and has said that he will i.niJest.i gai:e the si.i.:uat:ion a little further to d~1·terrninE! IAJhat his dc~1par·t·.ITI(!I'll can do j_n this situation. TlierE! are a number of things thal: can bE! don~::~ oncE' the problem is determined as to how many the:1re are, becauSE! I am not sure that anybody knows as thi s point as to how many there are; you get dj.fferent numbers taJ.k:lng to different people. I can unde,rst.and that., because peopJ.E! havc-:1 not gotten doiAII'l to analyzing them all. And they have not hear·d
No. 4-6 R2500
back from some of them yet, because some of them just got their bills from the bank, so they probably- (fo not know precisely how many there are. Once the minister g(,1ts a handle on the problem, I would hope that he will look at this situation with sympathy and empathy for these young people just attempting to make a start in 1 if e . To be hi t wi t h t hi s situation could cause them, Mr. Speaker, to lose almost all confidence in our financial system, in our banking system, in our educational system, in the whole bit.
I cer ·tainly hope the minister, when looking into this, will keep these factors in mind, and the suggestions are almost innumerable as "l:o IAJhai: he could do: ThE!Y'E~ .is the matter of working out with the biulks a longer period of time for these students to pay off their deb ·t; therE~ is th~1 matter of dropping the interest; there is the matter of wiping out the loans completely because of the circumstances under which they develope!d. I - certainly hope' the minister will address all of these things, Mr. Speaker. With that, I will take my place.
MR. SPEAKER: If the han. minister speaks now, he closes the debate.
MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr·. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: I wi 11 r e c o g n i z e t he h o n . t he member for Stephenville .
MR. K. AYI..WARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .
Mr·. Speak<~H'. I <..J.ppr·ecii.·\te your wisdom, and my debt to the hon. member for Humber Wesl will be
L2501 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
paid in due time.
Pertaining to this bill, - just - a couple of comments. I welcome the bill with relation t.o the regulation of private ~raining institutions specifically to ensure there are regulations to govern the actions and ·the course requirements, etc., which should be there for young peoplE! or .anybody, for that matb::~r. who go to · such institutions. These :institutions have a place in our educational format, but they should not be h~1re at the expense of courses already given in our provincially funded educational institutions .
Tha·l: brings me to the rnat'l:c-:1r. Mr. Speake'r, of the financing of ou1~
educational :i.ns"l::i.tuttons within the Department of Career DEwelopmc!!I'Jl:, and lhe layoffs t.hat. have occurred with the community college system and Cabot Institute. My query on this, Mr. Speaker. is whether or not sorne of the layoffs we see, and courses bei.ng dropped, are due to the fact that we are giving thE! cour·sE!S to the private training institutions? I am concerned that this is being done at t.he expense of the institutions we have and have had here for many years.
In talking t.o some people IAii th 'I:I1E! Cabot Institute and with the community coll('?.ge system, some of t he pro g r a rnrn e s t hat IAJ e r· e s u p p o s (~! d to be iransferred have not been transferred, Ml"'. Speakc::~r. and some of the instructors have been dropped from the system, especially when it comes to the Cabo ·t Inst. -:itt~te.
In relation to the Cabot Inslitu"l:e, courses which were scheduled to be transfE,rrE!d aJong IAli th t.he i. n s t ru c tor· s, IAHH'E:~ d r•oppc,1d
No. 46 R2501
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with no explanation. I am kind of leery and have great concern, Mr. Speaker, about that. I think that problem should be addressed by the minister when he is closing the debate on this bill. Because if that is the case, if lAJe iH'E:1 just going to get rid of the good courses and good instructors we had within our provincial r:H~ u c a t i o n a 1 s y s t 1::1 m , w h e n i. t c o rn 0. s to post-secondary training, we should have a second look at where that policy is taking us, Mr. Speaker.
There are a number of good private training institutions, and nobody debates that. I am glad to see this bill, but the problem of us getting out of training and educating our young peoplE!, or anybody who wants to get training and education, and deciding that we are going to throt~o.J it into the lap of the private sector, I think, especially when it comes to important education we have to provide, we should review that. If the government is doing this a n d t h e y are · .do i n g i t be hi n d "t: he scenes, it is - not right and they should address the problem.
We have had specific information come "to us which tells us that courses have been going on and were scheduled to be transferred from the institutes over to the community colleges, and this has not be(o!n done. I would hop(:! the min'istet", t~o.JhE:Hl hE! is cJ.osing the d e b a h1 , t.u -i.ll add r· (:1 s s t h a l: s p r:1 c if i. c
;concern in relation to the Cabot Institute and the community colleges in the Province, where we see not enough funding being provided and some courses being dropped.
We understand there is be done on whether being provided in our
L2502 May 31, 1988
a revietAJ to the courses
s y s t.r:nn are
Vol XL
setting us in the right direction, and if there is a demand ' for them and if there is a demand- fo-r -the · finished product. While we can accept that that revielAJ should be done, courses which are in de!fnand and are needed should be put in place within thE! community colle!ge systr:1m, lAJhich has L:hr:1 mandate, and those courses should be provided Lilith the proFH:1r Funding and tAJit.h the proper instructors, so that tha~ mandate, with which they were provided last YE!ar, can be carriE!d out. And that has not b~H!n
happening. I do not think it has been happening adequately enough.
In the case of the Western Community College, out my way; I think that problem should be addresse!d. When we look at t:hE! private institu ·tions, Mr. SpeakE!r, and ~etting up regulations, the courses they arE:1 st.ar ·ting and so on should be checked out and monitored to make sure that the criteria and the proper courses, with all the materials and so on, are provided.
But I am concerned, Mr. Speai<E!Y', with instructor retraining within the career development system, because I do no·t th'ink the proper advice has been given to i.nslructors t•.Jho i:\rr:1 b("1:lng laid off. I think there should be discussions with these people before the potential layoffs occur to discuss ·Lf they can be retraine!d in sornE! other field, or if there is a way for them to stay within the system.
T hi s wa s s u p p o s e d to bE! d o rH:! a n d it was set up within The Community Colleges Act. There was a subcornmit.tee t.vh'.'i.ch t.uas ·sE!t up specifically when the reorganization occurred, and when the minister rises I hope he w'iJ.J. make some comments on instructor
No. 46 R2502
retraining, which is supposed to be ongoing, as a matter of fact, by the Department of Career Developm~nt in its retraining of ins·tructors. When h~1 rises I hope he will address that matte,r because there are many concerns being expressed. It is not good enough to write it off to the collective bargaining process and that his person or that person, we have to wait for all that to occur before we can deal with potential the layoffs. You have to deal with potential layoffs, Mr. Speaker, before the!y comes, and you should deal with that by getting in the people who are possibly going to be laid off and looKing at retraining or an al ·terna t:i v e course they may be able to teach with their background and qualifications. Tha ·t is something that should bE! done . I see the mechanism that is SE:1"l up, but I am not too sur~1
about the t.uay "it is being handled or the way it is being carried out.
I have been told that there are resumes being submitted to the subcommittee for instructor retraining, and this is being done from the Cabot Institute and it is being done elsewhere. But that is far· as it has gone. That is not L.uhat it IAJas set up to do. They should be looking at that and reviewing and trying to keep people who are trained and who have been in the system for years, who are contributing a great deal to the community college system and the post-secondary education of the people of this Province. That problem should be addressed and I would hope, when the minister looks at th e introduction of the regulations governing private training institutions, that he will also look at the retraining of his own people within the Department of Career
L2503 May 31, 1988 Vol XI..
Dc:HJelopm.ent, and that the within the community system is addressed.
problem college
Mr . Speak E:1 r , ·these r E:1 g u 1 at :ions iH' E! welcome. They are good to see bc:1cause of problems which have occurred with some of thE! pri.V{·lt~ E!
tr·aining institutions. L'llr:.~ tAJelcorne thE! regulations corning in and suggest some other things that could possibly be done .
We will be watching to make surE! that the private training institutions are not being ~romoted at the expense of good courses that have been set. up in our system, our own public post-secondary education system for many yoars . TI'H:1rE:1 is a fine line there where we have to decide t.uhich IAJRY L.ue arc:1 going. I hope the minister is atAJare of that and IA.d.ll adclrE:1S~) thal. OU(;!r' l:hc;! COITI:l.ng months . in his promotion of and registering of private training institutions, and wi11 J.ook a-t: thE! ouU.ine of coursE:1S and and the demand for them.
Mr. Spoaker, tha ·17. is IAJhE!r'~1 my concerns come from. They express some problems, I think, 1.uiUr.in the post-secondary education system in diln~H: "l: r'E:1lat.ion to thE:1 pr•ivate training institutions and in direct relation to courses being offered at the Cabot Institute and other institutes, plus community colleges within the Province.
I would hope the minister will" address those concerns very seriously, as there arE! a number of p c,1 o p 1 e tAd thin t. he co rnrn u rd. t. y college system who are thinking that maybe they are going t o be j ettisonE!d because Hii s govE!rnm~1n t IAJi:lnts to pl"omo t t::1 pr·:ival: ~:! tJ"ain ·ing institutions. Those are serious con c C:! r· n s t h a t me\ n y p eo p 1 E:1 I know have, and have brought to rny
No. '~6 R2503
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attention. minister concerns.
I would hope the will address those
Thank you. Mr. Speaker.
MR. WELLS: Before the minister speaks, I have just a couple of minutes.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the of Opposition.
MR. WELLS: Mr·. Speaker, I do not need to repeat most of what has been said by hon. members on this side of th~1 House, and I ,,,,'ill not do :i.l. There is a matter I do want to raise with the minister, so I would ask him if he would pay part.:iculc-.lr ath1ni:ion to IJ..Jhi'tt I elm saying.
I do not quite purpose of Clause we can address it -
MR. MATTHEWS: Which Clause?
MR. WELLS: Clause 15.
under·sti:.~nd the 15. I realize
- in Committee, but I do not know if there is a principle involved h e r e . W h y would a n y i n s t i t u t:. i o n want to sell the goods or services of a student? There is a prohibition here against selling the goods or services of a student where the superintendent is of the opinton t.h;'lt the~ s l::udt=:1n·l~. 'is bc-:1'ing exploited. Whether the student is bc~dng oxploii::ed or nol:'., IAJhy IAIOt.rJ.d an insti·l:ution have the right to sc:!].l t:he goods or scH'tJi.C(~S of a stt~dent? My concern is that by s ta t.i ng i:\ pr·o ht bi t:ion that you cannot do it wherE! the s·tudent is being E!XploitE!Cl implies, at h1i:~st,
that you can do it where the superintendent may not bE:1 of t:he:1 opinion that he is being exploited.
L2504 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
I do not understand the necessity for this and I thought I would raise it with the! minister. - tie may not be aware of the reason for this provision in the bill now, but between now and the time it goes to Committee, at lE!ast hE! Cc!l1
take a look at this. It does not seem to me to be appropriate . Otherwise, I agree wtth the comments that have been made on this s i. dE! of the 1-1 o Ll s e , cJ.rl d I wi.ll not repeat them, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: If the minister speaks now, he ~loses tho debate.
The hon. Lhe Min'istE!Y' of Car'E!er Development and Advanced Studies.
MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .
I would just like to begin cJ.osure of the debate by thanking hon. members for their input into thE! debate on this btll and this piece of legislation. A lot of the suggestions and recommendations that have been made by hon. members have been extremely good ones, particularly the qUE!Stion as ked by the hon. Leader of the Opposition; I will make note of that, chc-?.ck it out: and lE!t thE! hon. member know.
Since bE!COJTdng MinistE!r of Car·ee!r Development: and Advanced Studies, like any minister of any government department there is a lot to learn and a lot of peop1E! t~ o go t to !< n OIAI . For me~! , I ~~ u e:1 ~; s , the private training institutions of t:he Province have been ones that I have had to familiarize mys~~lf tAdl:h. · T'hco1 appr·oach I haue taken with it is a consultative one, to tall< lo the opcH'ator·s and owners of the private training schools of thE:1 Pr·ovince, to ti::...lk to students affected, most of whom
No. 46 R2504
have been affected in a very posi t.ive manner, bu 1.: those who claim they have been affected in a nE:1gati1;e --mannE:1r, to SEH:1 what the problems are.
I believe, as I said yesterday, t h a 1: p r· i v a t E~ t r (:\ i n J n g i. n s i: i t u t: i o n s are a reality in the Province; they have been in existence For in excess of twenty years. I see my role as Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies as trying to strengthen the relationship between those institutions and the Department of Career Development and Advanced Studies, and to rnake improvements for the total educational system of the Province, of which the private training schools are one VE:1ry important component. So that is the attitude that I haVE! taken \.Ui th it.
I have consul ted with the Pr·ivate Schools Association and met with ·them, and I have talked, as well, to individual owners and operators who are not members of the i:l s s o c i at i o n I \AI h o h a cl t h c 'i r i n p 1.1 +.: into our department, into our rE:1gulations and our guideli.m1s, and I think we are making pr·ogr·ess. I think this piE!CE:1 of legislation is testimony to the fact that these private schools have been in existence for in excess of twenty years in the ProvinCE!. Thert1 has bE!Bn considerable change, VE:1ry positive changE!, but . the legislation itself needed to be strengthened, some teeth put into a number of the regulations I and that is what r.ue are about to do here.
While I have the opportunil:y, and while the member for Menihek is in his s .::1 at., I u.Jo u 1 d 1 i I< e to t: a!< e excE!pU.on to how complimentary hE! became today when he noticed there was an owner, or an operator of
L2505 May 31, 1980 Vo1 XI.
one of our private schools in the gaJ.lery. Yesterday, '"'hen he was concluding the debatE!· he · sai·d, 11 M r· . S pea!< e r , the F i. n ct l co rnrn en i:. s I would like to make on this have to do with lhe whole question of whether or not these private 'inst.itut:ions should be ther(;! at all, whethE!r thE!Y should E!Xist. 11
I just. wanted to point that out because that same owner, or operator, is in the gallery now.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, the member for· Menihel< S(:'J.id that yesterday. And today I saw him change somewhat, because I know how strongly he feels and how strongly he has obj ~~cted, r·eally, to private schools in the Province and private institutions.
There are a couple of other points I IAJOU J.d l i I< c~1 to rni.·1 I< e as IAH:111. ThE! placement of students who graduate from Uw privi:'lte tr·airr:ing institutions has be:1en very, very good. The:11"e hi:1S b~H~I'l considerable analysis done over the years on gr~:~clua'l.:es <:~nd job pJ.c:\cemE!nts, and, I must say, based on what I have s~H!I'l s:i.nce bocomJng rnirdst(~1r, l::hE! job pJ.acement is far rnOI"E! successful for those corning out of the private institutions than for those:! corning out of th~:! public institutions. It is just a comm(:Hlt I thought, in all fairness, I should make.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. MATTHEWS: It vari~s with the course. I have seen figurE!S in excE!SS of 60 per c(~Hlt. For· CE!r"l":.ain cour·s~:!S.
Graduates have come out of certain courses From tho priuate schools where they have found job
1\Jo. 46 R2505
placements, and much higher. than 60 per cent in others. When you compare that with what has happened -- in some of our public institutions, the job placement ratio and percentage has been much better. So I thought I should make that point today, while I had the chance, in concluding thE! particular discussion.
A lot of the debate over the last couple of days was particularly centered around Clause 19 which deals with, 1 The L.. t c,1 u b:1 n a n t .. Go v r.:1 r n o r· i. n c o 1.1 n c i. 1 rna y make regulations. 1 I would just l. i. k e t o :i. n f o r· rn h o n . rn ern b C:1 r s t h a i: we are looking at a number of clreas for rr.:1guli.'\tions. A lot.: of the d(:1bate over the last couple of days, agcti.n, has been about bondinig .. We have consultE!d very closely with the privHte institutions on what is adequate. We have our OL.IJn opinions and thr.:1y have theirs and, hopefully, as you do with any sed: of consultations, you meet somewhere in the middle which allotAJs the private training institutions to be able to either start up and ·operate or continue to operate. That is the other consideration: If you impose too great a restriction or too great a bonding or o ·ther financi.al burciE!nS on institutions, you may see them have to fold up. And you do not want to do that, as much as you want to have adequate protection for students in the amount of bonding.
',JliS t for thE! tnfor·rnatton or han. rrrc,HnbeJ"S, we havc,1 tali<E!d about a V(;!ry, V(,!Y'Y impOI"h~tJon
cons:idc::1rat :ion in bonding, which is student enrollment. We are looking at varying amounts, 1
depending on the number of studen t s enrolled . Lr.:1ss than 100 CE!rt.a in amounts, ovc::1r 100 and on the way up to 400 or 500, the
L2506 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
amount of the bond would increase in varying amounts. I think that is very, very important ·. As wel'l, -payment of tuition fees: Reference will be made in the regulations dealing with pro-rated refunds to students who withdraw or terminate prior to the completion of training courses. Of cour·se, thai: is the problE!In, I guess, the hon. the me,mber for Bonavtsta North highlighted yest·erday, that a student withdretAJ i:"lncl thc,1re has to bE:1 sorn~~ mc:,chanisrn in place to sort of deal with that: . B ~:! c <:w s e , as tAle a 11 know riow, the problem has rE!SU1tE!d L.1Jhe:1re students wit:hdrE:1IAJ ~nd thE:H'e has been monE'Y otAJning to the sludenl:.s.
Ml~. WELLS: Would you permit a question?
MR. MATTHEWS: Sur·e.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. WELLS: Would he also consider a requirement that the funds be held in a trust account by the school until l:hey ar·e earned by lhe passage of timE!? OthE!rwise, whclt happenc-:!d tAJith Har·binger could be repeated.
MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Career Development and Aduanced Studies.
MR. MATTHEWS: · r h i:·l t :i !> i.~ p c) --i. n t IAI c,1 w j _ ll t r:-1 k e u n d E:1 r considE,rati.on.
I was about to rnake han. gentleman
was that we are
Another point befor·~~ the interj ectc::1d looking Ht: possibly thirty days, that money would be refunded
No. 46 R2506
within thirty days of termination, so you put some kind of a deadline on it. If that had been the case lAd t h H a r EJ'rn g e r , Hw n Uri. :; s t u d H tTl:: ,
I do not ·think, would have b<~!en in the situation of being owed in c"1xc~~ss of $1700, because more than thirty days had elapsed between the time she withdreu.1 and whE:Hl thE! PI"Oblem dovel.op<"1d lAd th flal"'bingc~r.
As well, we intend to include a section in the regulations dealing with the amount of tuition that may be collected by ~ training institute in advance of the training.
Of course, again that is par·t of the problem where some institutions have required full payme!nt for a year and where! our Student Aid Division has adopted the policy of issuing loans and g r a n t s o n a s ~1m e s 1:: e r· b a s i s r a t hE! r than for the! long-term, which is the same case at the university and the institutes.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. MATTHEWS: Oh, to be i.nterruph1d by some peoplE:1.
MR. SIMMS: You are going to rnolH1 s ~~ cond reading today, are you not?
MR. MATTHEWS: y E:1 s '
The hon. the Presidt:1nt Council is getting quite to get legislation put and we all understand why.
of the anxious
Uwoug h,
I will just highJ.ight again for hon. rnE:'mb(:1rs S OmE:1 of the major things ~1ere: A private training revieu.1 boar·d; mor·e clearly defining the conditions re!quired
L2507 May 31, 1988 Vol. XL
for registration, which is import:i:mt; condi ti.ons regulating tl')e operation of a - prioa·te ·t::rc.dni.ng institution; appropr·iat.E' increases in registration feE's; and a more rea1istic amount in surety bonds, as I just indicated, di.r·ectl.y r·~1l.c1l·:.ed l·.o tho nurnbE!I" of students E:1nrolled in thE' schoo1. In 1:: h ~' cas E:1 of II a r· b :L n g <~! r· .i t u.Ja s a $1,000, and we aJ.l know what that amount spr'E:1ad OVE:1r that number of stu~ents would mean.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. MATTHEWS: It is kind of hard to continue .he,re.
AN HON. MEMBER: I ·t is h a r· d ·For t: h (,1 minis t E! r t. o do a thorough job.
MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, it.: is, and I am so keE'n on doing that, you know.
New regulations governing the retention and refund of tuition f~1E:1S. Th<,1Se t'lre thc,1 rnain points of the Bill and before sitting c:lou.m I tAJould lib~ to thank all hon. members for their input into tt, <:·1nd t:he suggE!SL'ions for· consideration will be duly noted and we u.dll see 'if IAJE! can deid with it for the benefit of the people we most want Lo directly affect, namely, the studE,nts of the Province. I rnoue second reading.
On motion, a bill, 11 An Act Respecting The Regulation Of PrivatE' Training Institutions 11
,
read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 2).
MR. SIMMS:
No. 4-6 R250'7
We will moue now to order 13, second reading of a bill, 11 An Act To Amend The Nursing Assistants Act 11
• (Bill No. 18).
MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Health .
DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, thE:1 Nursing Assistants Act established a council for nursing assistants in 1983 and the Act, I think, has promoted the recruitment and the qualification of nursing as~istants since that ttme with grE:1at bem1fi t to our health care s y s b:HTI . H OIAI~W e r , in consult a t ion with the council, a number of amendments to the Act have been suggested. I might add, Mr. Speakc~r, thi.'lt th(:1 counc'i.l, ·.i.tsc~J.f,
is tht'::~ prime mouer in all these arn~~ndm~Hlls.
I t~.rill just through thern; self--evidl-:lnt.
v (~! t' y they
quickly go are fairJ.y
Clause (1) of this bill 1..1Jill expand the· definition of register·ed nur·sing assistants. .It will mean that the regulations brought in under the Act will determine! who can be re!gistered by the council as a nursing assistant. It would mean that people like operating room
, technicians, physiotherapist aids, urology aids, that typt'::' of thing, if the regulation which the co u n c i 1. con l r· o l s i~ 1.1 OIAI s -Lt. , they
, can be registered under this Act.
The second point is a fairly minor one, that is the council itself I'IOIJJ is cornpost~d of riftr::1en mornbc,1r·s. Th-L~; arriondrn~~nl: 1.11:i.J.l sc.·1Y u p ·to f if t EH:Hl me rn I:H1 r s . T h e r· E! a s o n why th,:tt rrri.nor· ch1;1nge -Ls w':'d'~ ts that IJJh~Hl the Council was first establtshed, t:hc:11"C:1 IAI01"~1 three~
hospital training schools for
L2508 May 31, 19 88 Vol XL
nursing assistants and each one of those training schools had a member on the council. · Since· Hrattirne, two of the train:ing schools haue been closed. So you do not hau e three repre s e nta ti v es from the training schools on the council, they are jltst not auaiJable any longer - that is one from each school. HotJJC:1Ver, it rnay well be that some of these schools will reopen :in the future, so tJJe want·· to haue that flexibility ther·e. Th<:'lt .is why we say up to fifteen . But with on 1 y one s c h o o 1 open no1..11, :it t~.dll mt'::1an that there will be J in actual fact J on1y thirteen members on the Council. If another school opens up, thE!rE! '"'Jill be f o u r teE! n . I f an o t he r school opens up, there tJJi11 bE:1 up l:.o ftftc~on.
Th(~ sr:.:1cond clr.1usE:1, i:·1ge\Jn, -.i!> much in the sarne way. When thr:.:~ act tJ.Jas first brought in, there Wcls one member on the council nominated by the Minister's of Her:1lth, Education and Social Services, but the Departm~1n ·t of Social. Services, at that time, had a strong interest in thr:.:1 matter. We:~ have now in the Department of Health taken over much of the areas of responsjbility from Soc:ial 5<-;!rvices wheJ~e nur·sinq assistants work. So there is no real need now to haue the Department of Social Services representE!d on thE! co unci 1. . ~ s tAll'::~ ~li:1 v e taken t t o u e r , t hi s am e n d mE! n t no IJJ 1.1J:i. 1 1 al.lotJJ liE!al th to hr:1U(~ l:.tJJo nornineE!S, one that we aJways had, shaJ.l \..liE! s C.'l y , f o r· L h e a c u t: c:1 c i:.t r· E! activities, and another one now for the chronic care activ-.it.ies which we took over From SociaJ. ~) E! I" lJ -.i C C! S .
Tno othE!r' ch<.-11'1<.:JE:1 thc,1t"e tJ.IiJ.l bE! that thE!rE! will not bE! a nomineE! from th(:! Dep,:tr•tnJ(~nt of Educa·t.::i.on be c au s e t hi s a c t i u i t y i s now u n d e r
No. 46 R2508
Career Development and Advanced Studies. So, instead of Education, the Minister for Career D<::~velopm("~';il: dttd Advanc;(,~d Studit':~s
will be able to nominate someone.
On the thi1nd orw: It is to alloiAJ Lho council l:o ded.de on !>ome flexibility in terms of registration for training purposes. This could mean that thE:1 council. could pE:H'rni.l:. somEWI'H,1 lJJho had gone partly, say, through nursing tndning and HH~n dt"'cidE:1d, for whatever reason, not to bE:1come a regt s tE:H'~~d nu r s t':1, bul:: noiAJ IJ.Ii.Hlls to become a nursing assistant, the council could deem that some of the training that person got as a nurse could go towards their registration as a nursing assistant. It is to give t:he council a bit more 'flexibility Lll~r:ich they do no not hav~~ at the present time on setting the training curriculum.
The final one 'i.n the bill itself, that same clause, will also allow the council to decide that as well as just paying a fee for a renewal of your licen~e to be a nursing assistant, the council can, through r·eguli:tti.ons, hr.we sorno flexibility to require other 1:. h '.i n g s +:. o o . F o r· .i. n s 1·: c:\ n c (~ , t: h o I) might. require someone who has not bE:H:1 11 IJ.Jor·ki.ng for a long p<H'iod of t: 'i r11 E:1 a !> cl n u r s i n g a s s i s t a n t , t o d o sorn(,1 upgr1:\ding befor·e t:h(~IJ ,,.,ou1d h<::~ve theil" licenSE! r·ene1..ued, that t y p E! o F .l. n c l" (,1 a s o cl fl. <"' x i b :i l. ·:i l: y 'i. n I"E:1gistrat:ion. So those ar'E! thE! amendlnE,nts that. are .. i.n t.hE! bi.ll. as presented to the House.
I should mention that in Committee IAIE! are inte'nding to br'ing 'in two further minor points, or fairly m'inor pcd.nts. One is just a clarification po'int. ThE:1 act, in two places, refers to non-professional activities or
L2509 May 31, 19 88 Vol XL
improper conduct of professional activities. The wording 'is different in one place. - -rn -one pl.i.':IC(~ i.s says, 1 irnpropc"'r conduct in a professionaJ. re,spect 1
, and in another place it says, 1 pr·ofessional misconduct. 1 So it. "i.s jtJSL the Sl:\lfl(:~ th·.'i.ng but it '.i.s worded differently in two parts of l·:he ;:~ct.. Wo l.o~li'!ll'l'l: !.:o j u~; t Hlnk<,~ !::hE:' same wording throughout the act.
·The · final one that IJJE! 1..uill bring 11 p i. n Cornrni t bH:~ I c:'tm just. informing the House now what we inb~nd to pr·opose in Cornmi ·tl~. N! is that if there is hearing in r•egard to f~ complaint, at the present tirne, the council must: hold a formal hearing . If there is a complaint brought forward, the council m~st now have a formal hearing.
Sometimes these complaints are · v e r· y , u e r· y . ~1 a !d 1 y r· t':1 s o 1 v E! d . W r::1
are proposing to bri.ng in an am~~ndment. l:o allolJJ thr::1 council to decide whether a hearing is necessary. In other words, instead of it being obligatory, it '"d.ll l:w discl"OI:: .. i.on;u·y. A~> I say, that will be brought up in Cornmi. i: i:ee.
W 'i. t. h t. h o s e J n l:: I" o d u c ; ... o 1" y I" e rna r· k s , I move second reading of this bill.
Mr~. SPEAKER: The h o n . 1:: h o m (~ 1r1 b 1;,1 r f Ol'' Po r· t d E! GraVE!.
MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .
§OME HON. MEMBERS : Hc,1ar, hr::1ar!
MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I under· stand th<,1 ministe,r 1 s explanat:ion of lAiha\: he has just been reading and the changE:1S t:o l::l'lE:1 bill. Ii: i.s r·e,ally
No. 46 R2509
only housekeeping .
HOLIH.;!ver, th<c1re ar(~ a coupl.<c1 of ques·tions ____ I need answered because we have to be very careful of what we allow a council or someone to do vJh en we say a co ll n c ll has Uw right to give an individual a 1 ~i c e n s e a s a r· E! g i s 't. E! red n u r· s i n g assistant. He explained that it could be somebody. for· example. who is an assistant in an operating room.
I am wondering are we giving it to a lab h1chnic:i.an or· an 0. R. technician. What I would likE! the rni n is b.:' r to <"' x p 1 a in 1 a b:' r· is a r· <:'
we being too flexible? Is it possibl~1 that peoplE! o-t.hc:!r +.:han those that have the proper t: r· a i n :t n g '-" n d q u i:-l.l i. f .i. (,1 d -L r· i:\ i. n oi n g c o u 1 d b <.;! r· e g :i s t e r E:1 d a s a n u r s i n g d s s i. s LiHl t? I t s a y s , 1 0 ·Uw r c J c:l s s j_ fica t ions of he a 1 ·t h car· E! l.t.IOr'k<c1rs. 1
H Ol.t.J F i.'lr' i. s i:: haL g o:i. ng to bE:1
expanded or what do you mean by othE!r classificCJ.tions of hE:1Rl·th car·e workers? We have a lot of people in th<c1 - hei.-l.lth CHin~;! sysb:Wl in many areas. in the nursing homes and the hospitals- I would not say as much in hospitals as in nursing homes who are health c a r e wo r k e r s b u t t h e y pro b a b 1 y have not had any Formal training.
We hav€~ to b~::1 careful IAIE:1 do not allow the council to make an error or to ~~e ablH to giVE-} tl·1os~::1
pE!OpJ.e, u..1hom I have no doubt have ·many y~::1ars of ~~xper·i.<cHlCE! -Ln working in the health care system, but do not necessarily qualify undr:11n a pr·ogr·arnmE! . So we have l:o I:J (;! V E! Y' y Cat' (o! f U 1. IAI h 0 IAJ (~ q -j_ U e ·t.: h 0
qualifJcat:ions or· thE1 1"0.1gistrati.on 't.: 0 '
The second point: problem with that .
L2510 Mt~ y 3 1, 19 8 8
T h<c11"e It
l . :; n () shall
Vol XL
consist oF up lo Fi. ft:eE!rl me,rnber·s. It is quite understandable it is not necessRry for a ·council · to-have to have fifteen mE,rnbers. It can work equally cts well with less than fifte!en . The fact, as thE! m i n i s -t e r e x p 1 a 'i rH~ d , a t s o rn e p o i n t in time in the future there may be mo r C.;! n u r· sing s c h o o 1 s . thE! n you wouJ.d have the opportunity for· those nursing schools to be represented on the counciJ., and that is quite natural..
I have to say to the minister that p r· 1::1 s e n t l. y • tArl l: h o n 1 y o rH:1 n u r s i n g assistant school in the ProvinCE!, I d o n o -t t h i n k '"' ~~ , o n Uri s s i cl r:1 of thE! House. could agreE! that that is enough. One nurs i.ng trai.ning school, and I think it is p t" e:1 s e:1 n -1 .: 1 y a 1:: 1.: h E! C <.·1 b o t-.: I n ~; t: :i -t u t: <_, .
That i s where the only opportunity :i~> notAl for· anybody IAJho IAJant-:. ~; t:.o train as a nursing assistant.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudi.bh1) .
MR. EFFORD: I do not t t' y i n 9 1: 0 1
just at the
think so. They bui~. -Lt. is sl:r-ict.ly Cabot Institute.
a r· e now
There are a number of reasons for th1;~t-. . I FH:H'sonally have had s orne constituents call me and ask rne to s e:1 e i f 1 c a n i'H:1 1 p UH;!In q E! t ':i n t. o cJ.ass e s in September . NoLJ..J, the Cabot Institute can only -
MR. SIMMS : There are quite a few on t he lAid j_ -1:. :-i_ 1'1 9 JiSt .
MR. EFFORD: That is rJght, thE!InE! is quite a l. a r· g e:1· n urn b (~ r· o n t. h f! IAk\ -:i. t ·. i. n g 1 j_ s l:: . The Cabot Institute, a s we r·nr:1l."i.ze, Cdn only h"lndl.<:1 !>o lrti:'lny in a class. The min i ster will Pi"Obabl.y sl-:r'\nd 11p i.·\nd sr:~y, 1 We11, we have an overabundance of
No. i~6 R2510
...:~-'
nursing assistants in the Province or we do not need any more, ' but I do not think that is so, because, in chec~i~g around, what we are finding more and more every year, not only in nursing assistants but in the trained nurses, is we are losing a great number of those tr·ainE!d p~1ople to othE!In' p1novincr:1s, and it is for a number of reasons.
OrH:1 of thH main rc::1ason!> .is betl:er· pay in other provinces than there 1.~) prC::1St'::1nl'.:1.1) in I\JE~I~JfOI.IndJ.t:ll1d. L know the minister is quite ao.Jare of thi:11:, and he i.!> addrc~1ssing i:h1:1t situation in his negotiations nOIAJ. But th(:1 faci.: r·emr.\ins IAJe ar·~~
losing a number of highly qualified, t.r·a:i.I"H,H~ pc::1opl(~ "in this area, nursing assistants and nurses and many other health areas. We cannot afford that. T h a"\~. is t h ~;:1 r· r:1 as on tJJe as b:! d t: h c,1 quest"ion about why we only have the one inst"itut"ion now in the province where people can train.
For example, if in the Bay St. G r:1 or g e a r· e a o u t o n t 1·1 r:1 We s t Co a s t tJJe had anothe!r one and somewhere pr·obably ·ar·ound Cc-:1ni:r·i.'ll Newfoundland or some other part of the Pr·ovi.nce, we IJJoul.cl not haV(:1 the heavy load we do have placed 0 rl i: hE! Cab 0 t I 1'1 S t i. t II i-:. B n OIAJ , 'f. 1:. i. S
unfair. That is another reason tJJh I) .
J 1:. ·t s v E! r· 1J u n fa i r· -1:. o <,1 x p t~ c l p () o p J. e to travel from Western, Central c:Hld Nor+.:hE!r'n 1\leiAJfoundJ.;·:trlc:l t.o St. J 0 h r1 1 S i:l n d 1'1 cl V e t h i S g r• ei-l t e X p e n S e IAJ h (~ r· E~ p r· o b a b 1 y l: h ~=! y co 1.11 d g () t it Jiving in and ar·ound the ar·ea of Stephenvll.l.e or Corner Brook or CE!nlral Newfoundland. It wouJ.d not cost thE!nt tHHH' as much. That is anothE!r' aspE!Ct thE! minister is c e r· t. a -.1. n 1 y g o i n q t: o h a v E! t o l o o I< <il t and take into consideration.
I know if somebody has to move
L2Sll May 31, 1988 Uol XL
from St. Anthony down to Corner Br'ook or from D~~er Lake to Gander or Grand Fa 11 s , they are g din q ·to have the same cost in boarding, but they wiJ.l certainly not have the same cost in transportation thE!Y would have if thE!Y wet"e lc::H·wing St. Anthony Ol" some Western part of the Island and rl r 'i. lJ 'i. n 9 i. n t o ~3 t·. . J o h n ' s . I 1~. J. s more easy to get home on weekends. With the long Winters we have, having to drive ·flnom S-1:. John's to g<~1t hornE! to t.he:i.r residence on a weekend or during Christmas vacation, it is quite difficult to travel that dis-t:anc(~. :Ct i.s
also of
but it is That. is on(.;! have.
not only weather, quite expensive. the concerns we
The other concern is we do not p r· e s c,1 n 1::1 y , i:t n d t:IH1 minis t~ ~~ r' is well atJJare of what I arn going to say rH:1Xt, WE! do not have E!nough nursing assistants working in thE! hosp'itals and nur·sing homes. There is a great deal of room for mor'(.;! and more:1 to be hir'E!d. That is the reason why we need a lot of IIIOr'H l~.r·i:·d ni ng.
An example is the situation at the Hoy1es and Escasoni Homes. It is deplorable to go down there and go into those senior citizen homes and see lhe way i.n which those peoplc"1 ar·e bd.ng handled and liH! C rH' C:! b c-:1 --J. 11 9 tr:'l !< E! 1'1 0 f 1': h ~)HI . I 1: oi. S
not the fault of the people who ,:·1r'C:1 thet"~:! no1JJ, i.l: "i.!; th(! Fault that there is not enough staff. Th;:lt. "i.s only an E~xarnplE!. Thi:ilt .is only two homE:1S of thE! many, many numb(~I"S around !-.:l·1e Pr·ou"i.ncE! and the hospitaJ.s where we are grossly u n d <,H' s t a f. Fed .
ThE! r· e is no tAJa y can lAJ"Er a 1 1 OIAJ to go on. We are treating senior citizens, and we t rea t i n g o u r c h ron i c c a r e j, n
Ulis OUI" are the
No. 46 R2511
hospttals and our long term care p,:'\t"i.E:1nts d.s Becond or Hl'ir·d class citizens. Make no mistake, each dnd <-?.VC:H'y - - p~~rson IAJho I'H'IS the good for·tune of living, or the ltJck of living t.o I:Hc1 sixty - F""l.vr:1 YE!iH'S old is going to be placed in that same posit.ion.
I would never l:i.b~ to th.i.nk, Mr. S pea k e r , I wo u 1 d h a v e to be i n a position where I would be placed in a senior citizen horne, as we have witnessed here in the Hayles and Escasoni, and that I wouJ.d be allowed to J.ive - it is not living
to be allowed to be placed in t h E:1 s i b.1 a t. i o n w h e r· E:1 I c a n not. e v E:Hl
get out of bed to get to a bathroom or to get a decent shower or bath myself. I have to wait for three to five hours For somebody to come and do it for rn C:1 . T h ;:~ 1:. .. i. s a b s o l. u t o l. y disgr~ceful. It is intolerable and nobody should i..J. ll.OIAJ U1d 1·.: l:o take place. But it is the si.+:.u,:lt.i.on t:haL is t.i:.J.k:i.ng pl.,,,c<:! -Ln this Province today, Mr. Speaker.
I had the opportunity last night of vis i 1:". :1 n g t hc~ Mi.l. J. E! r C en tr· ~) . l was going to refer to the General.. I guc~ss it still. is thr:1 old General, but it is now the Mi1l.<·>.r' CC:Hltr·e. A pdt't.: of that MiJ.ler Centre is for· the DVA, for the veterans. For people who went over in the first and second World War.
MR . HISCOCK: The great tJJars.
MR. EFFORD: The two great wars and took a chance. A lol of t:hE!rn gi.·,ve th~~tr·
1ivcc1S, but thE! pE:ople at thE! · Mi.ll.cH' Ccn1 Lt"e r·.i.ght: not.~J nd l·.: tH'dll.y
nr:wcH·-- because t·:hey carnE! back, but Lhc:!y IAJc~nt OUt!r anr:l t·.hE!Y ·fough-1.: For· ft"Cc~edom. They gave up whr.~tever·
r•ighl:S OY' IAJhi:~t~:!VC!Y' pJ.<c~i~SI. Ir'C!S l::hO
1..2512 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
people that stayed home had. They took ti'H:1 chance of go'ing OIJC:H' and being killed, but they · came bac-k. · The y f o u g h 1: F o r· t he f r e e d o rn of their country. They fought for dornocr·dcy and tiH1Y succeedE:1d.
To soe:1 l:h(;!rn cotne b<:,ck and the , ... Jay in which we are treating those pr:1ople t.oday, I mr:1an, i"l":. . is absolutely again as I say deplorable, disgusting and degrading. We have absoluteJ.y no r·espe:1ct.
Last night while I was down in the facility, therE! was one person j n the particular area for recreation, one person out of thE! nt1rnbr:1rs dnd nt~rnbt::1r's of pE:1op1e. There are not enough nursing ,:lss:i.sl.: <.~nt:s and not: enough nur'SC:1S. I knot.~J the problem is doJ.lars and c C! n 1:". s , b u t IJ.J E:1 h d lJ c~ 1·.: o l. o o k <:~ t: IAJ h C:>1 L IAJE:! ar·e doing.
It is not only a matter of whether t h o r· e 1. ~; E! no u g h p ~~ o p l e IAJO r· !< J n g there, it is the facility i1:SE!lf. i'IOIAJ nice IJJOUl.d i. l:: b(~ i.f ·thOSE! pE!Ople had a surrounding outsidE!, out r:ilr'OI.Ind ·l: hr:,l: pdr't"i. cuJ.ar' unJ.t, if they could get out and haUE! a 1 i t. 1:.: 1 E:1 p 1H' k a r o u n d t hE! a r· r:1 a a n d some nice seats and recreational f r:'l c :i 1. i 1:.: t c~ s outs i. de I).Jh C'! t' C'! on d i~' y s like this they couJ.d gE!t out and enjoy ti'Hc1 fresh a.ir and haue some> recreation outside. There is absolut:c;!ly noth.ing Ol.lt dround thr:1 arE! a , ThE! y tJJa 1 k o u t sidE! t h a+: particuJ.ar facilily, or that insU.tuU.on, a·nd they walk on the s l::r·~H~t.
I arn onJ.y using that as <H1 ~~x<:,,mpl.c:!. ·rhc;!r·~~ ar·~~ rnt<1ny, ITit'lny, other areas around the Province IJ.Jh e r· t'! IAH~ h d l) C! i:: h ;:., l.: . f\J UIAJ, 1":. he I" C:! are a lot of good pl.aces around.
To givr:1 you an Pentecost~l. senior
No. 46
examplE!, thE! c :.i.l::'i.ZC!nS hOIII(~
R2512
in Clarke's Beach, I must say, is absolutely fantastic. They have large grounds ther·e where the people ci:fri- get out and enjoy the stJnshine. I knotJJ of another• area down in Musgravetot.un. There is a beautiful faci.lit.y dotJ.Jn -th<,H'(~ and there is some nice r·E:~creation
a r· (,~ i:t s a r· o u n d t h c\ t p i:t r· t t c u 1 a r a r· ~~ i:\ where the senior citizens can gE!t out around. I just forget the name of that institution now but -i.t. U.lill come t:o mi.nd i.n !::t rrdnutE:~ because I visit that area quite ofbHI as 1 hc:we a !>i.S t:cH' li.lJJng down in that ar·ea.
The!>~~ ar·e examples of what we c o u 1 d be d o i n g for o tH' s cHd or citizens, but those· are private horneo~s. Whr.d·. I arn saytng is t.he government institutions around the Province are not nearly as well kE:~pt. Just look he:11ne at Hayles and Escasoni and the facilities outside there. PeopJ.e who do not have the opportunity to get out themselves and can only get out even at the best of times when the weather is worthwhile, where you need the nursing assistants and you nE!ed the workers in the institutions to be able to get them out and to let them enjoy some fr·Hsh a:lr. It .is only a very, VE:H'Y shor·t SE!ason, as we knoJJJ, in this Pr·ovincc,~. They gE:1t eight or JTine months of cold IAJ(~at::hc:!r' JAihC:'n i::hc~y cannot g~:!l.: oui~.
and tJJe lucidly gE!t bJJo months of IJ..l c,1 a 1.: h e r tJJ h 1 c h t h o y s h o u l. d g ~=! t o u l and E:!nj oy.
T IH1 rni. JT.i. s hH' , I c:un s 1.11" c,~ , J s go -i. n g to h~] 1 me :l. t: :is a 11 a rncl t t e r of d 0 l. 1 .:~ r· s c:\ n cl c (,1 n 1:-. s c:·1 n d ~~ h (,1 y a r· (~ doing the bes'l job thE!Y can. T h o r· o ~i. s n o d o u b l: I·H;! i s d o :i n g 1:: h (;~ bc-:!S't job h(;~ can but l IAIOI'IdE!r if
--l:.ha·t Ls l:·.hE:1 best: job i::hc1t can bE! done. That is the question we have:! l~o ask.
L2513 May 3 1, 19 8 8 Vol XL
There is no question the remainder of the bill is just housekeeping and i. t gives the co u n c 'i 1 a 1 it t -1 e more flexibility in lhe registration of nursing assistants. I would like for thE! minisb~r. r.vhc:Hl he gets the opportunity, to explain if too rnu c h l c~ 6\IAJi:\ y :i. s g i. ~~ ~~ n in t h r:1 registration of other people for regts'l:.c-:H·c~d nur·ses. He gi:wc,~ a couple of examples and I would 1: h J. n-k t h c:l {~ +: h c:\ t i. S C 0 V 0 r• ~;! d t h (;! r E! and that cannot happen.
The other par·t where the MinistE!In Ci f C d r· H e r• D c-:1 v r~ l. o p rn c,1 n '1-:. a n d l:: hE! Minister of Health have the right to appo'i.nt i::IAJO, c:tl'ld 'i::h(~ rJiin'i.st.et• of Career Development, one, lAJell, that is only natural because no longer is the Department of E d u c a 1:. i. o n a n d t h ~=! D c,~ p cil r· t rn (;! n t. o f Social Services involved with nur·sJng ass:l.st1:1nts, l:: h(~ nur·sJnq homes, or the hospitals, so that is quite understandable.
M r . S pea k E:H' , lAJi t h t h a t I conclude. At some point in time the minister may enl:ightE!n us to the fact that there is a protection there where nobody other than the properly trained cHid quc1lif:i.~~d p~wplr:.~ tAdll. be able to take part and bE! rE!gistE!rE!d as a nursing assistant.
Thank you.
Mf~. FENWICK : Mr . Speah1r.
MR . !3PEAKER: The han. the member for MenJ.hek .
Mr~. FENLtHCK: ·rhank you ver·y much, Mr·. Sp~:H:1kor·.
We do nol:: l'i.k(! 1-.:hJs b:i.l.l.. A!; a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, we consider· .1. +:. a rn1:1 j or· -ins u 1 t: t. o the nursing assistants working in this
No. 4-6 R2513
Province · that thJs piece of lHgi.slati.on should h;:tlH) be:1en drafted and these ~mendments
should hi:'\1)e b<o1(o!l'l br·ough !"". i.n h~:!r'<::1
by a Mird s ter of Health IAJho clearly unde~stands the :irnplicat.ions of lAlhat is going on h1::1r'<:1, r:lnd Yf~t. has noi~. b~:!<o11'1
for·t.hcoming IArith us in te:1lling us e:1 x a c t: l. y IAJ h a 1~. t s o c cur· r· i n g .
The reason I mention this is because we took a copy of this legislation, when it IAJas first tabJ.ed back in Apri1., and sc-:Hlt lt to the Nursing Assistants Committee of some of the public sector unions and asked them to have a look ,at Jt, to review it, to see what the situation was with regar·d to it, and whether· or not it was an appropriate amendment or IAlhe·l:her :Li: IAli:l.S some:1thi.ng IAJE:1 should be worried about.
Dc:\V <o! Cu r·i:i. s, who is UH~ co1mp loy tH:1
rc-:1lations officer responsible for rH:1 go t i. a+:. i. n g o n b d1 d 1 f of n u r s i. n g assistants, wrote me back in a 1 (o1 t t (! r· of A p r'i.l 1. '~ , l 9 8 13 r.1. n cl i. n t.hc'lt lc.;!tt.er indicated thE!Y had s o rn 1::1 v ~=! r· y s E! r· :i. o u s c o n c C! r· n :> IAli 1:. h J t: because they saw this as a means f o r 1: h ~~ N u r s i n g A s s t s tt:-1. n 1·: ~; C o u n c i. 1 to essentially de-professionalize the entire nursing Assist~nt:
pr·ofession and return i·t back to i h> p r· f~ ·- l 9 B 3 d a y s . I IAI i . 1.1 e:1 x p lc:d. n '.in a fE!IAl minutes IAihy that is thE! cas 1::1.
I am rec:~J.l.y VC:H'Y. d:iscour·agc,1d. I took this up with the Minister of
:Health privately and indicated there were serious con'cerns by Uds group. I hc.wr:1 actually even gJven h:i.m a copy of the lette~r I r· (:1 c r:1 t v e d f r· o rn 1:: h <.·l t. o r· g a n J. z a t. ... i. o n and asked him if he would at least addr·ess there.
L2 51.11.
con c e r· n s r· i:\ J s ~~ cl
euen though the
Mr:·' y 3 1. , 1 9 B 8 \Jol. XI .
letter was turned OUE!r to hirn someti.rne ar·ound tho middl1::1 of April, I have yet to receive any rc"1pTy. ~)o T t:'m qu-i.tc0 d:iscour·ag(~d
thE! minister obviously Edther did n o 1: d o h 'i. s j o b p t' o F> e r· 1 y , .:~ n cl j u s t 'ignored it, or hE! agreE!S IAJ:ith thE! nu r· s "i. n g i:\ s ~> ·i s 1·:. ' ' n 1:: ~' c o u n c J J. a n d l.: h E! innovations they are trying to put in hf~r·(~.
Here is what is wrong with 'it.
MR. SIMMS: The Nur·sing Ass ·i.stants Association (inaudible).
MR. FENWICK : No, t.hey d-i.d no ·t. No, thr:1 Nurs:inq Assistants Committee of the Neu.Jfoundl.iHJd Assoc"i.at."i.on of PubJ.ic Employees reviewe:1d it and aJ"E! clearly oppo~ed to it.
The s:ituation, Mr·. SpeakE!r, is th-i.s: Under· l::hE:! pl"!::'Vious legislation the only people who c o u 1 d b e:1 r· C:1 9 J t> t: c;! r· r,1 d a s n u r· s i. n g
assistants are individuals who are p r· of r~ s s :i. o n i:l l l. y 1.: r· a ·i. n c~ d 1:·. o b e nursing assistants.
If you look at the lE!gislation in e:1ffect "i.n 1.9H3, i.i'.: says, 1 a prar·~;on
is eligible for registrat-ion under l:: h t s ;:~ c t. I 1·. h 'i. ~; ·i s ~) 0 c l.: L 0. 1'1 H ( 2 ) (a) 1 Who pays the registration f ~~ c,1 a n d IAI h o h a s c o rn p 1 e t: e d a prescribed programme of education for· r· E~ g :i. s t e r· e d n u r· s ·.i n q assistants. 1
The proposed change in here is, 1 1AJho h<~s complet.e:1d a pr·ograrnrne of education for registered nursing ass1stants or its equivalent as determined by the council. 1
What t:hat means is, undE!r the p r· .i o r· s y s t ~=! rn you wo u l d h a u e to take the actual training course f lH' n 1.1 r· s .i. n 9 i:l s s t s tr:·l n 1:: s offer· o d 1'1 OLAJ in one institution, but formerly
No . lf.(j 1~2514·
offered in a variety of them, and have successfully completed that in order to be a nursing assistant ~ -
Under the .new legislation the council itself will have the right to determine what is equivalent tr·airr:ing. A·l: th"l.s point, Mr. Speaker, one has to · ask themselves, who does the nursing assistant council represent? We know there ~re close to f i fteen members on the council, but the fa C 1: of t.h(o1 mr.1 t.l·:(o1 r i . S I 1~.h(::1 r'e r:\r'e i:lbout t.hr·ee nur·sing assistants. Mos ·t: of tho other· pr·ofe:;!;·i.OI'h:\1. organizations, such as the Nev.Jf ou ndla nd Mc~di c ;~ 1 A!> soc ·.i.C\ t. ion, t ~w M~Hlical Boar·d, the Nursing (l s s o c i a i:. i on c:-\ n d t. h (~ i r· o1nganizations, do not have d o rrri n a t :i. o n b y Uw t r E! m p 1 o y c,H' s . They_ arE~ a professional group which they respond to.
The Nursing Association, for example, the Association of Registered Nurses, does not have the owners of private health cr:tre institutions on their board, as ·the nur·sing a!;sisl::ant:> do. As a result, their interest is the professional development. of nurses and the professional development of nur·ses, sol.C::1ly.
What we have her·e, Mr. SpE~ab:w, is a situation v.Jher·e wha1: is clearly happening "is the owners of private nur·sing institutions ar•e saying WE~
c! 0 1'1 0 t lJ.I i:l l'l .t i: 0 h r:l V e +:. 0 h :i. t' C:1 properly trained, registered nur·s.i.ng i:lssi.si~dnt.s. We I~Jdnl-". 'l.:o go i:lnd re·-·dCo1f::itJe it so !Ale can take p~~oplc,1 IAJho hi:tuc:! not: t. hf~ 1111:\nc:li:·\l:or·y tr·a:i.n:ing thE~Y wouJ.d have hi:.td undE!In t h E! fl Y' f~ I) -j_ 0 U S r:~ C t , fll.l -1: 1.: h (,' rrl i. 1'1
pJ acc,1, and, t.her·efore, df~ ·pr·ofes!>~i.oni:\1.-i.zo t.h~~ IAJholE~
occupation.
Mr . . SpeakE:!r, I think this is
L2515 May 3 1 , 19 8 8 Vol XL
something we should be clearly ver·y alarmed about, given the composition·
especially or th-is
particular council itself.
The other thing this particular piece of J.eg:islation does, if one looks at thE! 1983 J.egislation, is knock out the gr·andfathE!r' claL1s~1.
I guess maybE! we should call it the grandmother clause s .ince, of course, the vast majority of n u r s i. n g as s i . s 1: ani: s a r· (~ - IJ.JO rn en . That is section 8, subsE!Ction (3) IJJh"i.ch lAJOIIJ.c:l d(-:ll.(~1t.f!!d by thE!SI':1 amendments. It says, and I v.d.ll cjr 10 l:e, '1\Joi.: hiAJ"i. t h stand .i. ng subsection (2), a person is e l :i. g :i. b l. (,~ F o t' r· e g "i. s t r .~ l·.: ~i. o n 1.1.1 h o s E:1
pays thE! registration fee and who ( ill ) h r:\ !> .:1 t: o rn b "i. n '" U . o n o f 1: r r:·d. n j_ n g and wor I< ex peri en c E! s pine~~ s cr·i bE!d rHJd (b) dppl."i.os l:o be r·eg-Ls U:H'f~d IAlithin one year of the coming into f o r· c e o f 1:: h J s a c t: . '
It is very clear what this part .i. c u l. a r 1 ~~ g :i. s 1 at. ion v.Ja s d e s i g ned to . I t wa s d e s i g n E! d to register. as nursing assistants people who had been in the prof e s s "i. o n f o r· a n urn be r· of y e a r s , did not have thE! formal tra:i.ning, bu l:: v.Jer·e clec:u·ly competent to operate as nursing assistants. This was the rnechan"i.sm in 1983 put J.n place to accommodate those FHWpl.f~ IAtho l.eg:i. t. :irna b~ ly had an argument that putting the r· e g i s 1:. I" c:·\ t: i. o n p r· o c E~ d 1.1 r· E~ s .i n p 1 a c t,1
at this late di~te and giVE!n the"il" c :i. r c u m :; t ·. (.Hl c (,1 s , +.:i'w y rrk'. y h r.\ v e b e P n advanCE!d in years or had a lar'gE! f,:•\rrl"i.J.y lo handJ.c,~ r:·\l'ld ~>O Orl, IAJE!!Y'8 not in a posi·l:ion to go back and take a year's lrMining.
So we hauo a clause in the current legislation which accommodates q u t -1:. e ~'! i:\ s 'I. J. y L h ~=! s ·.i. t. u <:it l:. J. on legitimately there prior to the r ~1 g -:i. s i: r· r:-1 t J o n of n u r· s "i n g ~.,, s s i. s t i:\ n t s back in 1983. So the question 1.ue
No. 4-6 R2515
have now is, what is this Nursing Ass ·i.stant:s Counci.l. doing? C1Har·J.y what it does is it no1..u says 1 we IAJ-J. J. J. d E! 1·: ~1 r-;rn J n ~1 lA) h t:-l t. "i. S f.\ p fl r· 0 fl r• oi. d i": ec1 t r· i:d rd n g . 1 T hat may bE.~ o n t h e,1 j o b l:: rct·i.ni.ng; i.+: rnHy be tr·.::~.i.n:i.ng -Ln v:i l"·hJalJ y any·thing the council is interested in establishing as ecH~uivaJ E~nt.
(.)s ·th0.1 ministE:H' says, it may bE! p E:10 p 1 e IMh o h ;:~ u rc1 go n E:1 J n +:. o a nur·sing prograrrnm~s, spent one or tiAJO y~:1ars in ct l'liH's.ing progrc:\lflrnec1 and decided that is not what they want l:.o do, and l:hE!rl whE:Hl th10:1y cH'ec1 evaluated, they have the equivalent qualifications of a nur·sing assistant. That may be th10:1 case.
But it also could be the wife of ~
private nursing horne ou.mer IAJho 1..\Ja n·t. s to hi r· e lri. s IAri f Cc1 1.: he r• e and says, 1 Well, she has been ar·ound tho home for a couplE~ of y(~ars.
We thjnk this is equivalent tr·r.ti.ni.ng. Therec1For•H, IAH~ IAJ.:lnt: thl"!lll to be CE-)rtified by this board. 1
0 n ec1 Hill s 1:: r· ec1 m e:1 m b C! r· l h t s i. s n o 1:". i:\
pr·ofesstonaJ. · board of nursing i:l s s :i. s t: ,._., n 1:. s t: h.:{ ·1": 'L h r~ y c o n t . r· o l. , :i. t: is a CounciJ of Nur·sing Assistants which they do not control and they hCive veH'Y little or any input into LIJ h .:-1 t. 8 o e v E:! r .
So whctt we wil.l then see
DH. COLLINS : Will. the hon. jus 1··.
(inaudible) .
1 MR. FENWICK: No, no. We have J.ec1gislation which s6lys, 1 You take'! the,1 pr'E:1scr·:ibed training at the educationaJ. ·J. n s 1:. ·i. t u t i o n s , y o u a r· e ;:,J. n u r· s -.1. n g ass:is{~ant. 1 What 1..uas tAJrong IAJit:h t h c:l t? A b so 1 u tr,1l. y not h J n q . I t: lAid s
a good pieCE! of legislaU.on. It c lr:1 a r·l. y d E! f '"i. n E:' d t: h lo1 t r· a :i. n 'i n g required . It meant those
L2516 MH y 3 1 , 19 B 8 lJol XI..
professional standards would be adhE:H't:1d to and it rnH;::tnt: IAJt'! 1..uoulrJ have some confidence these rJUrs'i .ng -dSSJ.Sl.dnl"::; knt:~I~J IAihc:\t: th~;!y IAJOT'8 dojng.
Under the nE!I~J pr·ocE!dUinE;!, th10:1 c o u n c i. l. b d s :i. c <:\ ll. y c a n p u t :.1. t:. ~' rubber stamp on anybody 1 s qu.:\J.:lf:i.ct'IL-:i.on:>, no lrli'll::tc~r· IAJhi.ch way they got t h E:1 r e . Again, it: i s i:: he compos :i t "i. on o f 1·: he N lH' s in g Assi·stant Council we caJ.l into q 1.1 E:1 s l :i. o n .
I t is not a profes s ional organization like the others because those professional organizations control it with their OlAll'l rnerni:H:,rsh:ip. So, it is for this reason we arE! extrE!HIE!J.y upset to see this piece of legislation corning in here. We f r:;! r:~ l. .. i. t c:l o (:;! s n o s ('! r· v E! IJJ h a t s o e v c::! r· to thE! profe,ssion and all it does .l~> accomrnodal:c;, ques ttonab1e interests on the part of the ·indiv:i.di.JC\JS IAJhO dY'E;! OFJ!::1T'dt.ing :i.t.
OR. COLLINS: That is your interpretation .
MR. FENWICK: We l. l , T h ':" lJ c=! n o i: h eo1<"1 r· d 1:1 s :i. n g 1 E! thing from the MinisbH' of 1-leaJ.th l:o !> 1199 r::' s 1·. "i. 1:: :i. s no 1:: . Thd 1:. "is 1.: he;, part I find particularly Fr·ustr·,'lt-.i.ng.
DR. COLLINS : TF you l "i.shHH:!d to t:hE~ C'.!Xi:'lrnpl.r:;,!; I cited, it might have heJ.ped you.
Mf~. FENWICK : YE!S, I did. I hE!ard the E!xamplE!S you had ther·E:! .
I d t d no t: h r:~ a r· the examplE!S I b~1 accorrnnodatE:!d situation. The 1~;! t.+.:lc1r' abou 1:. a not rE!Sponded
1\Jo. lJ.6
y 0 U E:1 X p 1 a f n j_ 1'1 g h OIAJ gave you cou1d not. by th i.s par·t..i.cuJ.c.~r
fact you had th"is ·month dgo and h<~\vc~
to mr::1 suggE!Sts you
R2516
do not particularly want me to get any information on this.
DR. COLLINS: You are saying the totally irresponible
council body
is a IAJhi ch
(inaudible).
MR . FENWICK: I am saying tht~ council has differ·ent objectives from that of the nurs·ing assistants who are working in the field.
ClE:1ar·l. y, Lf IAJE! hi:l v (.;! OIAJrH:H'S of private nursing homes on this p Cl r• 1~. i. C uJ. i.\1 In council, tf lAm ha lH1 E~ mployers IAJho dominate it, they may then lAlani: t.o s eE:1 differE:1nl:". standards Clpply for· it.
If IA.IC:1 1·1ave:1 a shortagE~ of nur·s"l.ng c:~ 5 s J !> i:. ,:il n t: s , d. n d ·!·: h ~~ rtl ern b r:1 r· for· Por·l: dc~1 Gr·ave (Mr. Efford) SE:H~1ms l. 0 S 1.1 g 9 0 !) t ·1~. h E! In (~ i S , i"t l'l d T. IAI 0 I 11. d not doubt it IA.Ihcd:soevc"!r. We have a rlllr s :i. ng s hor"l·.:a.gc,1. T suggest: IAJO p r· o b a b 1 y h a v e a n u r· s i n g a s s i s tan t shortagc,1 as IAJel.l.. We have training institutions which have b\::1en cl.ose:H.~ down, so cl.E:1arly ~.:hE~Y are choking ~ff the supply of nursing assistants.
If all thosl~1 th"i.ngs art~ con·ect, then what we are SE!eing is an end r· u n a r o u n d a p r of e s s i. o n a 1 t r a i n :l n g situation set up in the past, and t hat , i n my o p i n i. o n , 1Ali3. s p r· o b a b l. y working quite well to raise the pr·ofess i.on;;~.l sti:lndar·ds of l:h.i.s particular class of hospital ~~ rn p l. 0 y E! l~1 . S 0 1: h 0 S <~ iH' E~ t.I'H~ k i n d S of complaints we have with it.
·rho othl:! r th"i. ng IAJh""i. c h bo l:hc'! r· s 1r1c~ :is since Ut:i.s gover·nrnent has i:ll.r·l~r:ldy -:i.ndicdl·. ed "il".s connrri.l:lll(!nl·.: t~ o pr·:ivCiliz"i.ng pi~r·t. of thE! health Cd Y't! sy s t:c~ m. since:! "i1: clt~ar· ly hd:> fll" :ivatizE~d ·the rnanugernent of LhE! Hoy l. c~1 s H ornH •Hld Esc ;:1 so nJ, +.:1-HHl t~H,1
Cll"e going to seH different
L2 .517 May 31, 1988 Vol. XL
motivations apply here than have applied i.n thl-:l past.. In the past, if we had professional · manageme-nt or professions} career civil servants operating institutions like l:he:~ Hayles Home or· Escasoni, then we would at least have some degree of falth their objectives tAJere to have the highest quaJ.tty of professions} care for their patients, consistE!nt with being uble to meet their budget.
But when IA.Ie have things likE! the H o y l. e s F. s c ,:1 s o n i H o rn ~~ r· ur1 b y Extendicare, an organization with i:l chc"1cbH·c~1d f>Cl!d: i:1nd a somE!IAJhat checkered reputation in other provi.ncc,1s for· the:! incons-Lsi: ency of the quality of care they offer, l:hen 1~1~1 IAJOI.Ild s11ggesi". per·ht.·lps 1~.1hat
their objective in the future will be is to start looking at replacing their professional nurs"i.ng assistAnts w""i.th designated ones by this Nursing Assistants Council., "inrl"i.viduAls who do not have the qualifications and who are ossentictll.y walking off the street, looking for a job, an UJE! Escason'"i. rnanagE!ITIE!ITt pc.;!ople say, 1 Well, finE!, we can do that. WE!
dT'C.;! going to put you in thE!re working with individual patients, but we are going to call you a Nursing Assistant III or something and IAJ(-;1 IAJ.i.11 dE:1Sigrli:ti:".H YOl,l that.. WE! wi]l, therefore, get around our legal. obligations to have qualified people there, but, at t: h e:1 s i:liTI c,~ t.: i m E:1 , IAH"1 c a n off e r· y o u a wage s c a 1 e consider a b 1 y 1 OIAJe r than l.: h i:l t: 1.1.1 h J. c h :i. s c u r· r· ~~ n 1~. J. y o ·F f e r· c;! d nursing assJstants, 1 which is not ox.::t c l·: l. y I·.: he~ g r·~1d 1:".(;! st. ·i. n th ~~ IAJor•lcl i':ll'lYIAJi:'ly.
T. n 1 o o k :i. n g , .. , +: l.: h ~~ 1 ~~ g ·:i. !> 1. a l7. J o n , theinE! are also othe1n pal"ts of it l.:hal: iU't~ c:\ J.:i.I ·. U.r~ bi.l:". IAJor•r·i.!>OITle. If one looks at the defini.i:ion of 61 r·c~g:i.!;tor·~~d
the original
No. 1~6
nt.IF'!>""i.ng assist.ant. in piece of logislation,
R251'7
one reads this: - By the way, for ·thosl::'! of you who hauE:~ a copy of the legislation, it is the 1983 l.egi.sl.dtion, Chetpter so, f.lr+.:Jclo 2, paragraph (e) 11 Regis te,red nurs.ing ,:1ssi.stant. rllt~ans r.1 nurs·i.ng a.ss:istant regtstered under this f.\ ct. . 11 T h ;:~ "1:. 'i. s , by 1·.: h o tJ.Jd y , all. ·t hat to~.d 11 be 1 eft u n d e r t hi s ;:1rnenduu:~nt. B1tt: t.ho or· .. i.g ·i.nal one:1 l"ead, contint~ing on, 11 Registered undf:~r· t.h"i.s e1ct who under·t:i:lkn:; the:~
cCI.re of patients and residents of Cl.tstodi.i:ll., conUi:1.le::~sc~~nt. , or other institutions under the direction o f a r· ~~ g i. s t E!t' o cl n u r· 1><:1 o r· d ul. y
quetlifiE'd medical practitioner. 11
In l.ist.en:ing to thc-J deFin:il:: .ion or· the argument put forward by the Min ·:i. stet' of He a 1 t h (Dr . Co l.l. .ins ) , I arn not at all clE,ar as to what exactly was the reason for deleting that particular section of it, because t.hat one clearly states the relationship between a nursing ass'i.stant and a pat .lent. ·oi.s as an intermediary between the nurses and thf:~ doc l:ors and wor·ks under the supervision of the n lH' s ("~ s i:Hl d Hw d o c to r s . B y
deleting that - particular section of t 1.: , o rH~ a s I< s , t Hd n k 1:. h c,~ u o r' y
J og:i.ca.l question, what. exactly is b e i . n g ,:-, c c o rn p 1 J s h (:~ c:l h c,~ r :~ ?
OoE~s t:.his ruean in the future, for t:!Xdlrtpl.(~. t.h<~ nur·s:-i.ng d.ss'i.st:ant.s lAI:i.J J bE' E:1Xpecb~d to handle !AJar·ds a 11 by the rn s E~ 1 IH~ s '"ri. L: h no nIH's c~' s on thE! 1.uar·ds, Ol" to operate in "i. n s ·r·. "i. ·t u 1: "i. o n s IAJ h ('' r· ~} n o cl o c '1". o r· ~> a r· o thc:1re, cornpJ ete:~ly fr·ee' of them because it "i.s that supervision se~tion of it that is clearly r t::Hno u l:~ d f r' o lfl i. t. .
The r· ~'' rna y b (~ o t:I·H~' r· iH' g u JrHHll:: s for· :it, bu ·l: the Minis ·l::er of Health has not given us anyl: hing to suggesl~
uJhy his new definition is any bettE:H', and, in fi.itct., IAJhat :it: suggests to do, if read in
L2518 May 3 1 , 19 8 8 Vol XI..
combination with Section a, where' the whole question of how you determine what a nursing astdsta·nt 'i.s i.s dE:~<:~l.t. wi.t.h, :i.t -t.c~'nds t:o rnai<E! the whole profession somewhat less p t' <:1 c t s o t n b:H' m s of 1.~1 h i.'' ·I~ 1.u ~1 e x p e:~ c t of it and what WE:~ are looking for fr·om 'it.
M t' . S p C:1 a k E! t' , I t: h "i. n !< t h ~:' b a ~; 1. c problE:Hn this piE!C<:1 of l(~gislat.ion
S h OIAl S 'i; S t h ~~ f t:l C: l: t. h 1:'\ t·. I~J h (~ 1'1 i:: hE! Nurs~ng Assistants Act was C:1S'I:clbli.si·H:H:I, H: lo~.kiS done Jn a !AJay entirely inconsistent with the way "i.n which we do euery other professional association in thE' Prou-:i.ncc-?..
I would like thE' Minister of Health, for· exarnph1, to think, if the medical board, for example, that. 'i. s established to supervi s e the medical profession in this p r 0 Vi 1'1 C ("1 , IAJ(H' ~~ (;! S t: i:il b liS hE~ d i:il l'l d it were a fifteen-person board and tht'E''"1 of the pEwph1 on it we,re professional doctors and the othE!r twel.ue lAiere the people like an Extendicare Vice-President, for t:~X<:tmpl<~!, or· t.uer'c-?. c'i.v"i.l. SE:,r·vant::s or other bureaucrats involved, a ltl"i.xi.:ur·o oF pE:wpl.H who I.~Jarrl:: l:o set up priuate hospitals and IAI h ,;'\ h:W 0 t' .
What would the Minister· of Health think "i. f we had a merlic:~l. board in which -
DR. COLLINS: l f L h o y '"H'' r' e cl o c 1·:. o r· ' s a s s .1 s t. i:l n 't. s , I might (inaudible).
MR. FENWICK : Whclt: lAJoul.d t.:h~:' M:i.n:i.s l'.er· of Health think if his profession, which is a noblt:' pr·ofe1; s ion and hi~\s a long and honourable history, was then s ~1 t up .in such a s :ituat:ion where thE! doctors UlE!frtSE!J.UE!S had not o n 1 y n o c o n t r· o l o f 'i t , b u t t h r e e out of fifteen, which I belieue is
No. IJ.6 R2518
-.,..,.,_,,_ ~ ... ,.~ .. ~~~-~"'...:-....._,..,.._) ~ ... - ~-· ·~,,..,._., __ ,. ______ ....... ·------· ------·-........ --·-------- ·----- -·
the:1 number of nursing assistants on i.t 1 aJ.though I may be corrected on that if the minister has more i.nfor·rnai':Jon on H: .. But bthi:lt.: IAtould he thi.nk of their ability to look at lt as a development, as ~n organ:iza tion that would provide pr·ofess i.onal tr·a·lning I m;:·\"i.nta..ln standards in the profession and so on?
I am not l>llggesting ·J:o you I wanted fifteen nursing assistants l:here. But clearly someth'ing mor·e than three out of fifteen is a desir·abh' object i.VH .in thJs case.;!. Nursing assistants are the people 1.uho r'EH<tlly do t.hc-:1 work :i.n the"' hospitals. I do not want to ITIAl:i.gn t.he doc l~or·s mnd nur·sc~s and e v E:1 r y ·Ud. n g e 1 s e , b u t I h a v e s e e n c~no1. 19h hospit:.:lJ.s and T. h;:·liJ<~ sHen (Hiough nurs:ing homes ·to kno1.u that IJ.I h 0 n i . 'l: C 0 lfl 0 S 1': 0 '1: h (~ I" 0 i:·l 1.1.1) h 0 i:·l I) y WOI"k, phys::i ce-ll J y t:i.d.ng IJ.tor·l<, and 1:'. h (~ l o n g s h :i. ft. s I t: h o n ~~ r· s J n g as~dstanls are the ones right on t: h o f r· on i: 1 "i. n (:1 • 0 b IJ i. o us J.y , t h c,1 y are supervised by nurses and d o c to r• s I b u +.: g c:HHH' .:'\ ll y 1J o u a r r::1 talking about a nurse and maybe fivc,1 or s ·lx or (,1UfHl mor'(:1 l'liH's'i.ng assistants so that the nurse becomes mor·e of a supervisor and a coordinator of their roles I rather than the per·son lAtho tur·ns· ovto!Y' t.ht-:1 heavy patients in the bed, or does the bed baths and does all the other very mundanE! but E!Xtremely :irnpor·t:t.'ll'll7. t.uor·k for· ti·H:! s .i.cl< and the,' chronic car·e patients in our Pr·ovince.
I l:.lrinl< half of 011r' pr·oblE!III is I:H:!Cause this government has so l "i. t ·!" 1. t-:1 con f .i. d ~~ n c t·~ "i. n I" h ~~ n u r· ~; in g assistants as a profession and set .i. t: 1.1 p 1!1 s s u c h i;l n o n .. I" H p r· c,~ s o n 1.: i:l 1.: :i. v c,~ boc-.:~r·d, tl·1at th:i.s cornp1aint:, 1.uh:ich 1 t·. 0 J l. 1j 0 II h 0 1'1 ~~ S 1:.11) c:ltH! ~; c; 0 nl (! f r• 0 HI
the NUI"s::i.ng Ass:i~dr.ud:s Council. of 1': h o 1\J ~:!l.~tf o 1.1 n d 1 •:1 n d A s ~; o c i. i:1 1.: i . o n of Public Employees which, at this
1.251.9 May 31, 1.980 Vol XI..
point, probably represents more n u r· :; i n g 1:1 s s J s t: a n t s i': h a n a n y o t h e r· organization in the Provin·ce!. · - I have also talked to the representative of the Canadian Union of Publ.i.c EmployE,es tAtho probably represent most of the ol:hE~r· ones. Tht::!Y have nol: go'l: as detailed a critid.sm of it, but l he. y we r· e a 1 so IAIO r-r- .i t::1 d about l hE! particular aspects of it. I haVE! talked to nursing assistants who work in the hospitals thems eJ.v E! s, nursing assistants who have looked at the legislation and considere'd it. an :i.nsult. Tht,1Y considE!r thcodr ~rofessional status as employees of r:'' hosp:i.t.al t.~dt.h sorrH:1 sor· ·l: of a reasonable expectation that there be st:clndarrls there are being violated as a l"esult of this. I !':I'd. n k 1': IHd r· l e g :i. 1·.: i llli.'lt: ~:' co rnrn en t: s should have bet::~n at 1Elast r· ~~·~'Is o n ,., b Jy 1 J s t o n o d i ... o b 1J 1:: h E! Minister, rather Lhan being !>loughed off blo!Ci:1USH, obv"i.ousJ.y, they ar·e not as professional a s he i s •:1 s i)l d () c 17. () t' .
Mr. Spe;~kc:'r~ one of l':i'H:1 U·l'i.ngs I think I should do today, bE,cause I 17. h t n !< '.'i. i·: :i. s m p p r o p r J ;:1 t . ~?. f o r a l.l of us to see it, is that I w'.ill tablE! a copy of l:hc"' corTespondc,HlCt.;! fr·om the Newfoundland Association of Public E1nploy~~t-:1s on Jt .. Br::1for'E'! I do that, howeve,r, I would like to rc,1ad i.nto ·l:. he recor·d a numbE!Y' of the comments made by Dave Cur·t:i.s,
IAJ h 0 'i. s I 0 f c 0 l.lr' s ~~ I 0 l'l (.;! (l f t. h E:1 N A p E ne!gotiators. HE! is· thE! E!mployee' t' (.;! l d t '.'i. 0 n S I) f f 'i. C ('! T' .i rl U 0 llJ ('! d IAJ'i t h nursing assistants. I l..ld11 re,ad t h <-?. s f~ c l: "i. o n h t,1 t' e :
11 ~:) ~~ c 1·. i. o n 8 o f +.: h c,1 a rn e n ck!C~ A c t: undE:1r SubsE,ction (2) 'is pr·oposing c:-l d r• a lfl,:-l '1.: ·i. C C h i:l 1'1 g l:l 'i. n S 0 F i:l I" d S (:: hE! council will now be ab1e to I" t~ g 'i. S I·. Co! r·
l:l"a:i.ned l:hdl ·. ·i.s, proposed
1\J o . II.()
'.'i. 1'1 c:J -:i. U 'i. d 1.1 ,:·l l S lAJ h () h c:·l V (;! )') 0 t: as nurs:i.ng assistants,
~> i:. u d 1:! n '1:'. n u r· s o s . r h .i. s change, coupled the
R2519
proposed change in paragraph (e) of S e c t i o n 2 , c o ul d ope n the d o o t' s to employers to hire whom ever t h e y s o d l:1 s :i. r· ~~ a s rw t' s ·i. n g assistants. This by the way, 11 and t-.h.i.s is a quo-l::e, 11 "i.s ~H1corni.ng a major· problem. They arE! now going 1'.: o l. e 9 ·~' l. i. L e lA I h 1:·1 t. t . h e y c o u l d n o t. d o jrr thE:1 past. 11
What he,! is Sclying is he is seeing in mo r· <:1 and rno t' C! , r:1 ~; p (~ c i ••1ll. y t n th~::1 !>ITii'J.llor· gr·oup homes which are b e t n g (:1 s t. H b l. j_ s h c;! d r 0 r· 1:: h 0 c: i:l r (:1 0 F sornE~ of our· pE:!ople, :in these p ·~ r· t i c ttl ,., r· "i. n s 1.: J i: u t.: :i. o n s , i~ h e 1J ;~1 r· o nol bot hc·H'ing to look for ·trainE!d nurstng ~ssistants, instead they are looking for less trained fH.;!opJ.e thc;!IJ IJ.Jani: l:.o gel: c\bJay lAd l·.:h because they feel they can hire thc:11'11 fo·r l.~:!SS rnont~Y.
Continuing on with the letter, 11 SE!Ct.:ion (8) of ·the aiTIE!ndE!d Act, in the newly proposed Subsection ( 3), is providing the council. with greater authority to deny a request for registration. 11
11 The Act r·~:!SP<"!c+· . .i.ng tht:1 r·egistra·tion of nursing assistants states as i.l'.:s purpose tho establ.ish:ing of the council and t. h (! (~ s 1:·. r\'1 b l :i. s h Til(~ n 1: 0 f 1·: h (:1 s t. a n d d r· d s of training and r'E!g:isttnatjon of n 1.1 r s i n g c:·l s s .i. s l: i~\ n 1': s . T h r:1 pro p o s o d i:liTIE:!I'ldrnonts cJ earl.y fly :in the face of Lho ·si:.r:J.i:r~d pur·pose nF l·:.he A~;l .... TI-,E~ i::tfiiE~ndmonts wjJ.l <.;!nable thE! counc:i.J. 1·.1) i"~::~g:i.st.ol" J.nd.i. lJ.idudls · who are not trained nursing a s s i s t a n 1·.:· s .
11 Fr·r:uJkl.y, ·thJs counc'i.J. J.s r:-11'1 employer-dominated group of -L n d i. u i. d 1.1 ''' l s IAI h o c iH' e n o l:. lri. n g i.·\ b o u t: pl"ot.<-:1ct::l.ng or·, indeed, enhancing l·:.he r·ol.e of t:hl:1 nur·s-:i.ng assistants. The proposed alnr::!ndtnents only S"!r·ue to r·e·i.nfor·c~~
our distrust of the ·council.
L2S20 May 31, 1.988 Vol XL
11 Many thanks for forwarding us the pr·opo s E:1d a me ndrne nt s . Wi 1: hou t your help, we wouJ.d be unaware - of- t -he amendrri<::Hll:.s. 11
Thc:d.:, Mr·. SFH~i:lklH', I.S pr·obably the largest indictment of it. The 1 ;~' s 1.: l. ·:i. n l,1 :i. n 1.: h t;! 1 ~~ 1 ... t. e r· i. n d :i. cates the group representing the largest n um b (~ r· o F n u r· s .i. n g d s !> :i. ~' 1:: r:'l n 1:: s .i n this Province was not even con!>l.t1.1 ·.~::1d 'i.n t·.hn dt•r:·\ft-."i.ng of th.is particular change in the nursing .:'1 s s ·i. s t: i.'\ n 1·. l. o g :i. s l d t .ion .
DR. COLLT.NS : You arE! talking about Th"i.s ()ct. doc~s no'l:: sot 11p
You are talking about an (-i.naud'i.bl.e).
MR. FENWICK:
unions. c:,, union. entilnE!J.y
I am talking about the Ol"9i:ln·i.zat-:i.on IAJh..i.ch spc,1aks ·For· l::h1:! majority of nursing assistants in t h .i. s P r· o v i n c <:1 . T h i)l t or· g a n i z a t. i o n was not consulted one iota.
Mr. po.i.nt:
Speaker, We hild,
an interesting up "i.n tho 9all~H'Y -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
()N HON. MEMBER: Sick!
Mr~. SPEAKER: 0 r· cl1-:! r· , p 1. o '~' !; :~ ! 0 I" d c~ r· , p 1 ~~ d s e !
~- F ENW1 C:.IS.: We had, up in the gal.lery this afternoon, a Vice -President of l<eyin TE!Ch si t ·t:ing thE:!r'e i.'ll'ld hE!, dl.OI'l<.:J IAd.i·:h 'l':h~:! OIAII'l~~t·shi.p Of several of the other private ~; c h o o l s :i. n i:. h ·i. s P r· o l) 'i. n c (! , IAI o r· ~:! n o t: only consuH::ed, Mr·. SpE!al«~!r. on +.: h ~~ 'i. r· b :ill. , t: h ~=! y IAJe I"~~ 9 · i. u u n cop :i.e s of the bill. They were on the co rnrwi. t 1: (! e i". h iit t IAitH' I< e d on .i. t . ThE:! y dE!VE!J.op_E!d the whoJ.e t~hing, and IAJhen th~::!y lAH~t'C:1 F:i.n i.shEH~, l::hi':~Y ~H!I'lt
No. 46 R2520
Not.r.J, that consultation, :if it is g o o d f~ n tJ -,Jg h f o r· c:·l F o r rn c~ r To r· y candidate in Waterford-Kenrnount, s u r· e 1. y -i. l . j_ s g o o d ~~ n o u g h f o r· t:H1 or·ganizati.on wh:ich repreSE!nts pr•obably 3,000 or· '1-,000 nur·slng assistants in this Province. I do n o t u n d e r· s t. a n d IAJ h y t h i s i s a particular good operation, a good means of consultation, IAJhen it is your buddies you are talking about, but when people who are, quite frankly, legitimately concerned wii:h l:he IAH"1lfiH'l;! of i:he people who work in this Province in the h o spit. a ls tAll;! t' E:1 no ·1: consulted one iota.
I t.: h .i n k ·t. h a t :i. s d t. ~~ r· t' oi. b l E:1 inconsistency in the way you treat p E~ o p l e . You d "i. d no 1-.: h ;:·llJ ~=! 1·. o ] :i S t (·HI t 0 E.W E! r• y t h J 1'1 g t h ("1 y S a :i. d , but:, For· God 1 s siilk(;!S, '"lhy di.cl you no·t a ·t lE.~c~s'l gJve t.hern an oppot•l:uni-t:y to h.:·\lJO smnc"1 :i.nprli: j n+.o the lE:1gisJ ation?
AI\J HON. MEMB Fr~: They eLi d . ·
MR. MITCHF.LL: Why did t.hey not send in what they IAICII'll:E!d i--.0?
MR. FENWICK : They did lE; gisJ.at:· .. Lon 'is the last again.
not even know the 1.-11as corninq dot}.m! It linE!. I will read it
11 Ma·ny thanks for forwarding us the p r o p o s '"1 d am E! 1'1 d rn E:H1 t s . W l t h o u t. y o u r· help, we LIJould be unatAJare of thE! a HHH1 d rrH:H1 t s . 11 T h E! y t.r.H"'t' E:! no l~. E~ v c"1 1'1 told the amendment s were corning d (JIAJI'l !
AN HON. MEMBEI~ :
(TI'Ii:IUd'ibJ.E.~) .
Mr~. FENWTCK:
1.?.521 May 31, 1988 Uol XL
MR. SPEAKER: 0 r· d t~ r· , p 1. e a s e !
r"'R. SIMMS: ThE!re are more nursing on l·:. ho counc"i.l thc:tn gr·oup.
MR. SPEAKER: Ot•der, please!
MR. FENWICK:
ass :istants ~~ n y o t: h e r·
There are three nursing assistants 0 1'1 t h H C 0 IH1 C .i. l. .
MR. SIMMS: More than any other group .
MR. SPEAKF.R: Order, please!
MR. FENWICK: And tho l·.hr·oo nr~r·s"i.ng a~;s · i.sl··.ant~:;
on it are not even connE!Ci~E!d up t4ri. t:h i.·ln y of -1:: he +.: r·.:~d E! u ni.on s involVE!d, so they do not even talk i·.o U1E:1nt!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. FENWICK: B t~~ c a u s ~1 +.: h E~ y a r· (~ ,:,, p p o i n t E:! d , 1'1 o -1':. b y the trade unions involved, which would no+.: hHve been a bad idea, but they were appointed by the governrn~~n ·t for· l:: hE~:i.t• OIAJn political reasons, rathE!r than on the ba s is of who oi.s qualif·ied.
MR. SIMMS : A t't1 1:: 1'1 e y assistants?
MR. FENWICK:
nur·s .:i.nq
~~~ t:! 1. J. , 1:. h C:! \j h d ~~ e 1-: 0 b (! , 0 t h (?. Y'IAJ'.:i. S E! they would not be on the council .
Mr~. SIMMS: o f c o u r s e HH~ y a r· e .
No. 46 R2521
MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, what it is is an example of how blind this government- is to the fact that ther·e ar·e mor·~1 :lnter·est.s tn th:i.s Province than their corporate friends! These trade untons, these individuals, ar·e ve1ry much conc~~r·n~~d to~Ji.th l::he pt·oft1ss :i.on.:·ll st~ndards of the people they t' (,1 p r' ~~ $ ("11'1 t I b f?. C i~\ IJ $ t1 .i. r 1·:. h 1;:1 y C\ Y' f~ rJ () 1: concer·ned with them, then there d I" 0 d IJ.J h 0 1 C"1 b I I 1'1 C h 0 f 1 <:.~ 9 i~ l. :implicat.:ions which could become J n v o l.tJ o r:l h e r· o .
W h t:·l t '"'' i 11. h i:l p p e n -.i. s ·.tn d :i. tJ i d u '~' 1. !; w:ilJ be appointed into thJs par·1~ ic11l.r:~r· profossJon, thf:1S<~
C1.ppoint: c"1d inch vidu(jls IJ.JilJ then go l··.o IJ.Jork, t:hr"1y IJ.r:i.Jl occur bar g a :lrd n g u n :i t. p o s i 'L :i o n s , a n d if they <"Hld up 1.1..d l.:h i:\ pr·obJ.c-~1n . and iH'<"1 get'L:'i ng sued by a patient bE1cause1 of sorn1:1 probl~::1111, t-.I'H"1 un:i.on i.tself, for a large part, will foot the b i l. l. to d e f e n d l h E:Hn . So t h e y h a v e a vested interest in making sure we have the bE:1s·t possible nurslng assistants in the entire world. That i.s the kind of thing they IJ.Jant to do.
AN HON. MEMBER: No IJ.Jay, IJ.Jt'ong.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. FENWICI<: ·----I will give the Page A copy.
MfL DTl\JN : You sl1ouJd bc"1 spco1 aldng on bed1al.f o f Uw p H o p l. (,1 o 1- Me n ~Uw k , n o '1: 1\J () P F or CUPF.
MR. rENWTCI<: w(,-,~1J-y()IJ-h r· "i. n g :i. '1·. b d c k ? I o n l. y hav~:l one copy . MakH a couple of copies for the House.
MR. SPEAKER:
L2522 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
0 r d e t' , p 1 e as e !
MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, I think it is inrliccttive of a lot rnore than just the fact we are looking at these employers and allowing them considerably wider leeway than t:h(~y h.:1d br'!fO t'r·~ :i.n d~:1 Ler·rnl.n:i.nq I:: he;! pe:op1e who look after· the sick in () IH' P t' 0 l) i. 1'1 C (~ .
~~ht-1.i:: · :i.t. cl1:1•'lt'ly shotAJS .:i.s a b :.i.as towards looking at a council which · i. s u n r· e p t' El s o n t. '~' t: :i. t) ~:1 of t: h (:1 p e o p 1 e who work in a particular industry, .:tnr:l Js rr111ch HIOt'(~ r·r,1pr·es~Hll:.al ·. i.vc-?. of the people who manage the industr·y, ~~Jhoso obj r:~c t'.i.vc-:1s, Mt· . Speaker, must be different than -I~J h i.·l 'i: h o:-l p p e 1'1 ~~ d t. 0 1":. h Col t' Ul. Col I~J h El F' E!
you are not suppoSE! to IJ.Jcllk b E1 b~H~ c,1 n a p f::! r son IAJ h o i. s s p ~~a I< l n q and the Spe1akE1r?
MR. DINN: They are not observant over the1re. They nE1ver read a book on what is supposed to go on here.
MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, it is clearly i. mpo t' t,:.1 n t ·1: he pe o p 1 e IAJho iH' e involved in the profession be consult.f:1d IJ.J'il~ h th~1 ;:'lg~~ncy of l:h(::Jir· chotce. I IJ.Jould say to you, since c o l. J. (~ c 1: :i. v (~ bar· g c:1 i n "i. n g hi~\ s bE! f: 'l n i n
existence for about the last !) 'i. x t t~ C! n o r· r-~ 'i. g h 1·. o f:! n y n r:·l r· ~; , 1:: h c;1
Canadian Urdon of Public Ernploy<,'E!S sp~~dk!; •'\:; J.~)g:-i. ·l :.: i.Hidl".(l.J.y for· i.L!; nursing assistants as does any n u r· s 'i. n g co u n c i l. IAJ h J. c h h ;::~ :; d IAJ h o 1 r::! bunch of ernployfH'S on it; that l:.h<::' N OIAi F o 1.1 n d 1. d n r:l As soc i at :i. on of Pub l "i. c EmpJ.oyees, IAJh'.i.ch has 1.6,000 III OI'IIbf'::H' S "i.l'l th .i.s Pt•ntri.n cc!, oF I~.Jh·.:i.ch
pf~r haps 5, 000 ;u·c~1 hE1i:-l1 th c i.H' f'l IAIOJ"k~:!I"S of SOIJH~ :>or•t·. oF Ot:h('lr', legitimately speaks for the n u r· s ·.'i. n g •)\ s s "i. s +.: an+.: s d s 1.1.J c,1l.l .
It is, in my opinion, absoluteJ.'y
No. 46 R2522
------------------- --
uncons d enable the gouernrnent IJ.IOUl.d sii7. ·therE:1 c\nd s.:ly i-.Jwy did not E:!U~:!I'I bother "l:o consult them i.-HH:I iii~; k - t h t:l 111 1~1h e t: h o r• tJroi. ~>
pclrticular piece of legislation 1~1as For· 1·-.l"w bc~t.b~rnHH11: of the pl"ofess"l.on Ol" IAJhether it wa.s ~~ci·:ui.'llJ.y For• l".hc,1 bc,1t: tor·n1onL oF l:ho employers who are operating in the health Field tod~y.
So, Mr. Sp~~ai<1·H', T do not l"i.b~ th~~ legislation. I intend to uote a g a i n s t t h C::1 p a r· Li. c ul r.lt' b i l. l. . I a rn hoping IJJe can haue an opportunity t.o modify ·i.t subsb3.nUally ·in committee stage, if it does go Uwough, bc-:1caus~~ I th:ink it -i.!; a poor example of what we should be doing.
T h e :i n c r· c-:1 a s e i n t h c,1 numb~~ r· o f peop1e on the boar·d · or at least L h (:1 chi:~ n g E:! .i. n Hw 1·1 u mi:H1 r· F r· om f:ift. ec~111 ·17.0 up to fifteen is of r· (:1 ,:'111. y no llli:,, j or· cons !::1 quE~ n c o s . TL·.
no is something that we haue obj E~ctl.on to.
11 u 1·. c l o ,., r l.y 1~. h <,1 o t: h !::1 r· pi. o c ''1 s oF ::i t , IJJ 11 E~ r e IJJ C::! s a y t . h a '1: t h e n u r s :i n g d $ s ·i, s 1:. a n 1.: '.i. s d r- ;! F .i 1"1 e c:l d ~; IJ.I h 0 n lHH' r:l
I"E:~gis"l'E:lrE:!d nursJng assistant is, r:l n d ·1-. d I< c~ o 1.1 t. of j_ I: tho d <,1 F i. n i. L i . o n of 1.o.1 h et t E! x a c t 1 y a n u r s i n g i~\ s s -L s t:. r:t n i:. 'i s , 1.11 h o "i. s 1-. h e p r· 'i. n 1 d r· y h8alth care gJuer on the line, superv·ised by t:he modic~l
professionals behind thern, wlwn we do thal, wha 1:. c.H'(,1 IAJH thE1n c1<,1f:i.ning a nursing assistant as? We are defining a nursing assistant as g"od knol.~.ts IJJhat:. As a resu1t, IJJe 1Ad.11 e n d u p IJJ .'i. 1·.: h a 11 ld n d s of abuses IJJhich could crE!ep into the s y s 17.(-?.fn.
M r . S p ~~ i:\1< EH' I could you indication of how much ].(;lf-1:: 1 bE!CC1USC;! T di'O
exactly.
MR. SPEAKER:
L.:U>23 Mi.Oly 11, 1.988
g'J V E! IIH~ i:\ t1
timE! I haue no ·t. SUI"(;!
\Jol XI.
Fiue minutes.
MR. FENWICK: So , M r' . S p o i:l k t;:H' , j u s ·i~ +:. o t r· y i:\ln d summarize the complaints, fir·st :is l: h t~ p t' o c t-:1 s s , T t. h -L n k 1:: h 1:1
government, if the1y hauE1 a COifiiTI:i.trnon+·. l:o Ct)nsul.t·. tng in s o c i C::1 t y , a s thE! y d i d IJ.d 'L h t he p r· ·i. v a t El 1:-. r· a t n :i. n g s c h o o l legislation, then they also have an obligdti.on to consult IJ.dl::h othe·r sectors of society, tncludi.ng l·:. he tr·ad€:1 unton rnouc,1ment which has a legitimate function in th:.i.s Prov .ince:1, ~::1uen lf the ~ouernment ouer there does not bt1l.iC-:1VO J.l~. That COrlSI.l} ·l:.al:-:ion should haue been done. They should have knoiJJn the legtslat.ion was coming down. They should haue1 b~~ <-:11"1 qui b:1 diAiiU'E~ .i. t. IJ.ta s go .. l ng t:.o signifi.cantly affect a ue:1ry largE! p r• o pot' t ·i. on of i~ h E:1 .i r· rn~~ 1n be r· s h j_ p .
Sf~ c o n d l y , M r . S p E~ a k H r· , 1.o.1 e iH' E'! arguing a professiona1 nul"s'.ing C\ s :; J. s i:. r:l n t ··i. s r'l p r· () f ( ~ s s .i. 0 1"1 a 1 nursing assistant is a p r· o f f~ s s i o n al n u r· s i n 9 a s s .i s t i:·l n 1: a n d is not a nurse IJJho f1.unkE!d out of hl·)t' r:our·~;t;1 ; -i. s nol·: so11H~ o'l::ht;!r' student nurse who s hou1.d be stu c I< ·i.n there because thoy h~ve some staffing problems and ·they arE! got n g L o ,.~, 11. E~ t; 'i. ·'~' 1'. (~ 1··. h o 111 !":.hat. IAJi:'l y ; is not 'l he wife, d aught E! r, son, Lll'lc:lr:! or cous ·i.n of d nur·slng horne owner, who is looking for· a job fr·om thHm dnd t s I thl-:1r·wf.<H'(,1 1 gooinq to bE! defined · as a nursing i'l.SS"i. sl:.anl-. by th(~ loos~'! s ·t:. anclar·cls which rnay be applied.
All of the legitimate arguments f o r· n u r· s : i. n g a s s i. s t. ~~' n l:: s I)J h o a r· e n o t rElg'.istE!rE!d 1.o.1erE1 takE1n carE! of by 1':. he g r· a n d fa 1-: h (! r· c l. d u s c,~ t. h a t. J s 'i n the legislation today and pr·ovidNI f o r• c e r· 1': i. F "i. c ;~' t i. o n For' t. h o s (;! IJJ h o a r El working in thE! pI" of e s s Jon For· a· long p~H' iod of l .. i.rn(~. ~'~~~ '! . clo not need to loosen up thE! definition
1\lo. '1-6 R2523
of it. We do not need a s-ituation where abuse can creep into the system.
And finally, Mr. Speaker, it is, J. n my o p i rd. o n , u n c o n s c :i. o nab h1 t h a t a professional body regulating nursing assistants should have such miniscule representation from l:i'li~ t p r· of r:1 s s :i. o n . T h r· c~H~ o u t. o f fifteen or up to fifteen is not enough. ClE:1cH'lY the mc~d.icctl. borH'd tAJould not accept that for doc tors and clf~arl.y l:he Association of Registered Nurses would not accept t: h a t-. r o r· r· ~~ g :i. s '1-: <"! r· c:! d n u r· !> o s . l n 111 y opinion, l:here is no rE!i.'l.Son 1'1 Ll t' S :i. 1'1 9 r:'l S S :i. S 1~. c:'l 1'1 i-·. !; !) h 0 I I J. d r'\ C: C: 8 p -t-. that for their r8gislration.
Tl1iH1k you vr:1ry much, Mr. SpE:1aker.
f'H\1 HON. MEMR E r~: HE:1i:lr', hr:!ar!
MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr·. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the for Stephenville .
MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I have a number of comments in r e 1 a t :i. o n t. o 'Ul"i. s b .i l. l. . T h e r <~l c'lr' ~~ a number of concerns that the han. member For Port de Gravo (Mr. Efford); the opposition s p o I< t"1 s p e r· s o n F o r· h ~~ ;_., J. +·. h h d s brought forward concerning the t r· a :i. n :'i. n g of n u r· s ·oi. n g d s s i s t·: ,., n t . s "'n d aJso the courses to be offered.
~IJH. STMMS : T 1·1 o s ~:! i:ll" e rno I"(! s ~~ n s :i. b J e .
MR. 1<. AYI.WAI~D:
When '1.1.: c:ornns l ·.o !::h<'! t'C!g~i.sl::r·, :-,t:'i.on
of nul"s'.ing ~3 p H d k e t' , T · h d V E!
IA.Ii th th:i s. The
i:t s s t s t a n t: s , M r· . h i:\ d i~' n f~ x p o r· J t;! n c E!
Nursing Assistants
L2524- May 31 , 19 8 8 VoJ. XL
• ---A- -·~-'' --o • ••O < ••••••~ , , ~,.._. ... . : • ..._,__:_,.:_ ~.·.-- --
Council to me, in my experience deal. -i.ng tAJ.iUl them on behalf of some people who have wrote rrie!- a·nd i::\sked me to get . .in contact. tArith me, SE!eme!d to be a very pr·ofessional or·gan i.zation. Now, that is my impression of what they ar·~~. As a matter· of fc.'*ci:, l:he person I was trying to see whether o r· not 1:: h (·~ y had t: h f~ c r· ·i. l: e r· ~i. c3. to bE! a professional nursing assistant h1:,,d l.:o go thr·ough a str·ict proc"edure and had to submit thEd.r· qtJHl.if:icdt:i.ons .~,nd <"'XP~~r·:i.ence.
As T so(~ "1. t r· i. ':!! h l n ntAJ. or· a~' I have se~~n it in the past, thElrE! dr'e s t·.t'<Hl9 l"(·~qu · i.t'f'!TIHHll·~s for· nursing assistants before you can 9 t~ I: c: ~1 Y' 1: :i. r :i. <~ d . T h i.~ i". h d s b e E~ n 1:: h E! case, I think, in ·thE! past and I I~JOI.Il.d hopC:! i':h,:·\1-: l·.: h.::tl-. IAIOUl.d be the c d s e "i. n 1.: h <-) f u t . u r· e .
The thing about this is, Ml". S p ~~ a k <:! r· , I~J h <~1 n b r· i. n g .i. n g i. n t:: h t! amendment, as brought forward by t h c"1 minis ·tru·, as 1·.: h <"1 rr1<"1mb CH' for· Port de Grave pointed out, we want to mHiu~ sur·e !::hat train-ing and !::hE! criteria for being a professional nurs.i.ng assistant are met.
The difference in the amendment as t.o tho pr·E~u'ioU!> act, i~\t fir·st glanCE!, does not appear to bE! as IAJ i. d 0 •H' 1". J·w h 0 tl , HIE~ lrl b EH' f' 0 r• Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) paints it to b P , IAI h d 1-. 0 V 0 r• t h d t. J. ~; , b U f: 1Ail"1 l.•.l·.i ll have a look at seeing what i111pl.:i.cdl:'"i.ons :i.t:. ha~;. ()1·: f.ir·st: glance it appears that it does no l: , b u I: ~~j(,~ IAri. 1. l. h d v fo! .:·1 l. o o k a 1:: :-i. 1::
and see IAJhE!t.hE!r' Ol" not that c o n c: 1~1 r· n · i. s d lJ i:\ l :i. d o n lo! o r· no l . .
As I IAJas saying, Ml". Sp<"!akEH', t.he pd s t ~; y ~; to111, Fr'C:Jrn tAJh,:~ 1·. I h<.'W C·!! so en of :it:., rnE:!r.lt·rs a pc~1t"son who IAJants to rn ~~ n I: ·t·. h e c r· .. i. ·I: C! I" ·:i. i:l. c: o 1.11 d "1. o o k d t.: the criteria and get their qur.\1.-i.ficdt'i.ons s1.1bmil'.:tod and has to go through a rather strict
No. 46 R2524
procedure to make sure he meets lhe criteri~ in order to be ~
nur·sing ass:i.ste~nt. I think that s h o 1.1 J. d b f.! -a r· r::1 q u i. r• r::11 n ~~ n t ~~ s p <~ r: :i. '-" l. l. IJ tALi l h fut Ul"E:! J r::1g:isJ aU on and with Uw •:ounc il.
r F, Mr·. ~)pt~ ,., k tH', liH:! go v er•t·ntH:! nt. Llli:~~; not :in contr.H:t IAr.ith a11 p a r· l'. -i. e s 'i. n u o l.tJ t~ d , I: hE! n i': h a L 1. s r:-1
shmne that iil11 the people j nvo1ved IAJ (! r (~1 n 0 i: C 0 1'1 ti:t C 1~. ~~ d , .i. f t h c:-l '1-. IAHH' (~ thr::1 cr.1Se. Maybe that is not the Cd!)H, I do not kl'lOIAJ, bui.: l i:lnl SUr'E:1 that the minister will respond to that t~Jhen he r·isr::1s.
I have a concern also, Mr. Speaker, when it comes to the courses offer·ed. w(~1, out. on thr::1 West Coast of the Province over a number of years ago, I believe, there was a course at Western M(:1tnorir:'ll, but t:hen l:hat tJJas go l:ten rid of and for some while there was no cour·s~~. bul: thE:H'r::1 IAJ<'U> d
great demand for nursing ass'i.st.r:ul'l-.s. The Wc:1sl:~;;1rn Commun.ity College in Stephenville, the Bay SL. G<:10t'gc"! c<:llrlpus has lHHHl Lr·y:i.ng to pu ·t togE:1t.l·tr::1r i:l pr·ogrammE! for rJ IJr' S i. n 9 d!) S 'i_ S 1:r:li'J 1·: !) b 0 C d U !) I) 0 r I':I·J(~
c.h:mtand that l;1as beHn registered by HH~ :><~ni.or· c.H:i.z:~ns honlt:1 'i.n ~:; t E~ ph EHt v :i.ll e C r· o s sing and other he.·\J. I .. _h c:ar•(;! oi.n:;·i· . . ·i.l:u l:"i.ons .-.. ~r·ounrl thE:~ !Illest Coast.
We are very concerned about the fund i.ng For· such d pr·ogr·aliHIH:1, and l hat tl'd s programme should be br•ot.tgh1~ .ln Jn othE!r' ar'(:1a:; of t:hG P r· o v ·1 n c e , b E:! c a u s E:! t h E! r e i s a n e E! d and tAJh<:!Y'C.:! t:hat ne(;!cl is se:1.,;!n, it: should be addressed.
T h E:H' E! :is a 1 o t of p r C::! s sure within hol;p .. i.l-.:als notAl on nur·ses t.•.Jho dr·~~
performing work that is normally car·r·t E!d ou 1: by nu r·s ·.i. ng d sst s t·.a n t. s bE!CiWse of edthE!r a J.ack of q u aLi f J e d p e o p J. e o r· H 1. i:'l c k of funding. So that is a pr·ob1E:1m
May 11., 1.9BB Vol XI..
that has to be addressed.
There shouJ.d be more courses o f f f:1 r· (:1 d 1-: o n u r· s i n ':!1 a l; s 'i. s l.: a n t s r: o r ar·eas wher·e there is a cJ(~Hnand for· 1JH~II'I. As :r hatJe lidJ.d, i':hoy ar·E:~
attempU.ng to pt~t: togwt.hE!r a cour·!;~.-:1. l .dsi·. Yl:1Ht', t~Jh( :!n Lh•::!y IAJ(!r'''! g e t t i n g r E! Cl cl y t o b r· i n g i n t h e col.tr's•:! '.i.n ~')(o!pi·.ernbc~r· ·-· t I:H:!J.·i.r:!VO i.l~~
is noiAJ running- ther·e IAJas a gr'E!al: dt:1tnand ft'Otll l~:l·lf~ Bay St. Geor·ge/Port au Port: ar·ea, frorn p E~ o p 1 (:1 fro rn i:\ ll o v ~::1 r· t. h ~~ We s t Coast, who were wanting to get :i.nto l:h<o! pr·ogr'<::tllllfH~. ThE:1rE~ IAHH'e
cinly about twenty or thirty spac~~s, I bt~l.i.E:!VE:!, and th<-?.r'C:1 t.&.Jas a great number of applications to g e i: l n to t: 1·1~::1 pro g r· a rnrrH:1 . so thE!! r e is a definite neE!d to gE!t pE!opJ.e train~d, because the institutions rE!quire nursing assistants to hE!J.p t..ui.l-.h i:hr::1 hE~r!lll:.h ci:'r'<:1 uf th(c! Pl"ovinCE!, to help thE! nurses who are under a gre~t deal of strain.
The other concern we have goes back to the change in legislation, ·i. n 1-: h o t' (:< q 1.1 :i. r• <~ rn ~~ 1'1 i ~ s f o I" p 1::1 o pl. ~~ IAJ h o IAlclnt t·:o bE:1 nu r·s i ng c-u; s J. stan t s . Th<"tt chr:·,l'l':!JC::1 app~~i'lr's, 1.'11: f.i.r·sl: glance, to rE!quir(;:1 that a pE!rson h•"IS l·.o cornpl(~l:e ;)' pr·ogr·annne of· education for registered nursing dss:i.sl·.t:\ni·.s, or· il·.~; oqtt:i.~ldlr-~nL, i:'.ls deter·rnin<~d by the Council. Thr.lt 1.110 u l. d · .:'1 p p ·~ d r· I~ o '"' d d r· ~~ s s con c (;! r· n s E:1Xpr·esSE!d by the hon. fTI(!Triber· for 1\1 e n i. h ~~ k , [ l. h i;, S · I~ 0 b E'! r• (;! V i (:1\AI (! d , Mr·. Speaker·, and uJe IJJill bE:! do-.i.ng t h a L: . 0 u r· rn .-:l .l. n con c or· n i. s !:. hi:'\ !:: people who are becoming nursing a s s i s t a n t s a r· E~ d o i n g l~ h (o! p r· o p t~ r· courses, or have had the proper t. r· d i. n 'i. n g , a n d a r· e o n 1 y i:'ll J. o t.&.J <'! cl t-:. o become nursing assistants in our institut·i.ons if they have proper accrE!dH:atj.on, And if IAJe tJJant to j US t·. IJ.I .i p <;! U 1.1 t l·. hE! N U I" S J. n q Assistants CounciJ., at t:I'JE:! pl"esE:!I'lt t :i. l'rH:! IAJE~ h r:o\V ~~ J·. 0 0 p (·H' i:\ b:! IAr.i. 1:: h t h E! criteria we have! set up, and wJth
No. lJ.() R2S25
the Council making those decisions.
Mr·. Speaker, I hope the ini ni s ter tAli 11 1.1.1 .i 11. - a d d r· e s s t: h e p r o b l. e m i. s being br·ought fort.uard so that p eo pl. e who a r· e go i. n g 1: o b (! t. a k i n g care of our sick and aged in these institutions are fully qualified. As I have said, from rny prE!Vious experiencc~1 of help:lng some"' pE:1opl101 who have been trying to get their a c c r e d i tat -i. o n , t h ~n· e s e mn s t. o I:H.:! a strict criteria which has to be met. I would hop1~1 peop}c.;! 1..uJll ag~in have to go through that c r· 'i. t. e r· .i. <:1 ~> o t:. h ;,,1 ·1~. ~: h E! y d o n o i.: s J 'i. p through the systE.~m. It is a p r· o f ~~ s s :i. o n a 1 o l" g i:l n ~i. z •:'\ '1'. i. o n . A s a nJat.'h:!r of fact, nursing assistants i I') 1:·. h "i. S P t' ()I) i. rl C: (o1 P (o1 t' r !) t' rfl V (!! t' \j 1
very difficult work under d .i. r F .i. c u J. t c: "i. r· c 1 r 111 s 1'. a n c 1;! s d n d u n cl E:1 r· j rt c r· easE! d p r· E:1 s sur·~~ .
MR. ~HMMS :
(tn~:tud.J.bl.E:1).
MR. K. AYI..W(lRD: Thank you hon. House Leader.
T h o h o n . H o u i> E:1 '- e c!l d e t' r· ~~ c o g rr i. z H s that I am making some good, valid points, and I hope he will take heed of what I am saying.
Mr. Speakl~1t' 1 IAJhE!n it cornl.:lS 'l:o nursing assistants in this Pr·ovince i~. ht::1 tAJOt'k l:hc,1y do, <:<~gaJn,
'.is VE!t'Y irrrportani: work. They work "l n t a n d E! rn 1..u~i t h n u r' s e s .i. n t hi s Province to provide th~ health Cdt'(~ SO b;:~dl.y n~:H~ded iHld t.:hi:li·.
' r-:i.ght: notAl, tAJB ar·e finding, :is b ~=! co m.i. n 9 "i. n c r· (~!i.~ s ·i. n g 1 y d J F f · i. c u 11·.: '1':. o provide in our institutions for llli'\ n y r· o i.-l s on s I ·.·i. n c 1 u cl j , n 9 1:: h t) l "-' c !< of fund:ing and so on.
Mr·. ~:;peakE!t', IAJ(;! h''lVe l·.o rn;.~k,·: ! sur'H that paople who are going into the niH'!) -i. 1'1 g d S !> ·i. S 1: i:Hll: S p r• 0 < . .:Jr' t'll'lliiH!! d t' U
fully trained and are able to deal with the respons i b.ilities oF
L2526 May 31, 1988 Vol XL
helping people within our i n s 1: .i 1: 1.1 1: i. o n s , iii n d a l. s o t hat t he y are able to ensure tha·t they -are -able to go through the Nursing Assistants Council and meet the crJteria that. are set out. We would be very concerned, Mr. S p E:1 a k E! r I ;~ s t h e trHHrr b (;! t' f o r Po t ' t d e G r a v e p cd. n tE! d o u t: , if t he c r i t e d. a IAHH' 101 be i. 1'1 9 t' 8 J. Cl X ~~ d d 1'1 d p 101 0 p J. E! a r E!
getting through the process who a r· e n o t r· ~! a l. l. y i~. r· <d rH~ d a n d w h o a r e not recognized as being p r' of e s s :i. o n a 1 . t F t h d t. i s t: 1·1 €~
case, then we have serious con c: tH' n s u.ri. t h 1". h ~~ aulCHH~rrre n t. . But. ~e will wait to see what the rni. n ~i. s l: ~~ r s ;,., y s i:l b o u 1". IAJ hat the interpr'E!tation is on thE! amE!I'ldmenl' .. h c-~ b r· :i. n 9 s Fo Y'I~Ja r· d .
T Ci.Hl l:nll you, Mr·. Sp~:!r:\k(,'r', that: nursing assistants in this Pt'!)l) ·i. n c E! nt=!t;!c:l l·.o b(~ r·e c: og nJ. z C::!d
more and more by the government oF i·: h (~ P r· o IJ :i. n c t:! t-·. o E:1 n s u r· f'! 1". h d t t h r,1 y are appreciated. I think, Mr·. !3 p f~ c'\ k EH' I l:: h i:\ t : 1. s 0 f)(!! 1·: lri. n g IAH~ d 0
not do enough of in this Province, E~spc;!c ··i.al.l.y 'i.n th~1 hE:1dl.t.h car·e i.ns 1·:. 'i. tu l~:i.ons of the Pr·ov inc: e.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr . Speaker, I te!ll you! I arn rnak·ing d good spN!Ch hcH'e. Anyway, that was pretty good .
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hc~i:lt' 1 hHC\r'!
Mr~. 1<. AYI..WAI~D:
ThE!r'e :l.s a · lot rnor(~! ~)pC:!r:~ktH'. 1.(~1'. rnn l'.ol.l. is a lot more to go.
logo, Ml". y o u , t h ~=! r· ~1
I IJ,J·i.Jl. sl'.i:-ly r· :i.ghl·. on l".r'r:1Ck 1 Mr·. SpE!akE!r, as I nor·rnaJ ly do, pul:ti.ng fot't~Ji:li"d good po:in'l:.!; oF V "i.(!IAJ.
sor~F HON. MEMBERS:
No. 46 R2526
H ear , he a r• !
MR. K. AYI..WARO: Mr. SpeaYer, in summary, we hop(c;1 t:h~~ rn'i. ni. s i:·.or· IA.t:i.ll ,::lddr·e s s tho so concerns we haut~ put forwar·d j n r·c,1lat:i.on l::o go+:-1-.:Jng pc~ople :i.ni:o th~:,sc,1 inst~jt.ut:i.ons IAJho ar·e fully tt·d:i.nc,1d and ,:·lblc·) l:o c;H·r·y ou 1-.
'l.l1~~:i I" l"esponsj b:i.J lt.i~~s
AN I·ION. MF:MBER: (lnaudlb1 l~).
MR. K. AYI..WARD: Too bad, Mr. Speaker . going to hl'lU<) t:o ptJt. voicE:1. That is it. too bad.
They are up 1.1d i::h ruy It is just
T h e 1: h :i. n g .i s , t h i s h a s 1~. o b e done. When thE! minister rises to closc-:l UH,1 debai:.E:1, I hopc;;1 hc:1 IAlil.l address thE~se conce,rns IAJe have put f o Y'l.~oJa r· d .
I t. .i s u e r· y i rn p o r t a n i: , M r· . Speaker. Our population is a g J n g . nw r ~~ i. s g o "i. n g +: o b c-) a n increased demand for nursing d s s J. s 1·:. i:l n 1··. s J. n 1:: h i. s P r· o v .i. n c f) , a n d il is going to become more :i.H!por·tan+: to mc:lkt~ SIH'(,1 th.:1t·: LIJC,1
h<:we plwpJ e who are properly t·. r· d ·i. nod , so IAil~ IJ.J i. J.l. bog "i. n l''fW".i.E:!IAJ:i.ng thj ~; i5liTIE!I'IdTTHHlt Cl lit: t·J e cl.osor· j 11s 1·. ·l·.o sc,H:1 I~JI·J;~d: U·w j 1d:entj ons arE:!.
J t h iHl k y 0 U , MIn . S p E:1 a k fH' , f O·r y 0 U r 1· . .i. rrH~ and J ad j o l.lt' n -1.:1-w d ~:d:> '" h;, , ,:·1 s :r nonna1 J y do.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: lh)ar·, h~HH'!
MR. TLILK: 0 n a p o ·i. n i: o f o r· d e r· , M r· . ~3 p ~H:li< E:! r· .
MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, membe~ for Fogo.
L2527 May 31, 1988
the hon.
Uo1 XI.
MR. TULK: The han. gentleman for S b~ p h c-) n IJ i. J. ll-:1 h i:l s j u s t mad e a no t h·e r tremendous speech. If hon. mernber·s I~Ji.Hll: i:o knotAJ 1.~1hat is really putting him foriAJard, he has no1~1 dc~c:JdfH:I, I thi.nk, to l::ake 1-.:ht:! b:i.g 1(:1ap of matrimony on JuJ.y 29. 0 n 1·: h ;:1 ·I: b i~l !; "i. S , J 1·. h -i_ n I< I~H:! ~; h 0 U l. d adjourn the House.
SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear·, hear!
MR. SIMMS: To that point of orde1r. In vietAJ
tj f H1 r:l i: ~d g rr i. f t c i:Hl t o v o n t , I i:Hn
prepared to move that this House adjour·n notAl not. tJ.Ii.·lit unt . .i.l flue o 1 clock - adjourn now - in honour of the han. rnember 1 s matrimonial plans.
Now, I am not CE!rtain. As the M i.n ·i.s+:c-;,1" of F.isher·:i.c,~s si:~ i.d i::odi:ity,
he does not always take everything t h ;Jl 1: t h "' HW n1 be r· f o r· Fog o s a y s i:i\ s gospel. So, is that a fact? The hon. 111ern~H~r could c:onfir·m for· me.
MR. 1<. ()YLW(.)RD: Yes.
MR. SIMMS: [ l: •i. s d f ,., c t .
r~r·. ~:)pc~ctkcH' I :r. l··. h:i.nk the:! lt:!d!d: IAICo! should do is lake note of that f c:l c t: d n d I~Jc;! !) h 0 ul. d , 0 n b 0 h i'l1 f 0 F thE:1 House of Assc::~mbly, inst.r·uc 1·: Y o u r· H o no u r· , o t' d s k Y o u r· 1-1 o no u r· I
to wrile a letter to the groom and I: o 1·. h r.~ b r· :i. d f~ ,;, n cl 1.1Ji. s h I~ h '"! 1ft n o t: many happy r·etur·ns, but many happy days r.J.hr.:,dd.
DR. COLLINS: y· ;;1rt1 IAJ.i.J.j_:lng l.: o make h:i.tn an honourary nursing assistant.
MR. SIMMS: M c:" I< E) a mo t-. :i. o n , r'lll t h o s c"' ·J. n f a v o u r· and a 11 that s tuff . That was to
No . lJ.6 R2527
....... , .. . ~ . . . . , . . _ .............. __ --~--·...,i- • -·----~---A -.. -&,....r-.:____.__ .. ___ _...._._,l ___ ._ __ ., . ...!t:-----• - • ·-- --- ··--- - - ----
the pojnt of order.
MR. SPF.AKF.:R : It :is onE:~ rntnute to five o 1 clock.
MR . SIMMS: Is tha ·t Your Honour 1 s response to t: h o p o · .. i. n t o f o r· d c-?. r· , ·:i. t o n ~~ rn i n u ·t e to five o 1 clock?
Okay, Your· Honour. You are gotng to write the letter, are you for s u r e ? We IJ.J e r· e s e r· '.i. o u s abo u t that , Your Honour.
Before I move the adjournment, Mr. Sp~~a k er, I IAIOU J.d J.i I< e l:o just say thot nor·mally I IA.JouJ.d indicate now ma i: b:! r s IAH:~ IA.Ji.l. J. be c:lf~ a 1. :i. n g IAJ:i. 1-: h for the rest . ~f the week. H 01~m IJ c-) r , IAH,~ . h ~~ IJ c,~ no ·1:. q u :i. t e f j n <:~1 j zed our· agenda for F r :.i. day . ~3o IAJI'lt:ll·. J IAJ'ilJ. do, ·i.n or·ch:!r 1-".o g-.iu~~ hon. ITJt!rnber·s a b:it: of t:'.iniE!, "i. s i n d "i. c .:, l·. ~~ 1.: h d l·. 0 n r h u r· s d e\ y t.ornor·t"OIA.J :-is Pr·ivate Member 1 s Day, o f c o u r· s '~ tAl~~ 1~1 "i. 11 c: o n 't: t n u <-?. o n IA.Jj t h J E.~ g :i s ] i'.l t j o n . T he n , before th1~ Ho11sc~ iildj our·ns t ornorr·ow evening, I should be in a p o s i U . o 11 , i. F '1-~HH' H o no u r· lAd 1. l. g i. v e me a chance, because there is not nor·mc:\l.J.y an oppor·t:un.l ty for· rne to speak, to indicate what is on Friday and what is on next week.
All hon. members will remembElr that next Tuesday the House is closed, too. I think we have already indicated that publicly.
I move that t.tnt.iJ. tomor·r·ow,
I P. rn.
thE! House Wednesday,
adjourn at 2: oo
On rnoU.on, a d j o u r· n e d w~~ d n E:! s day ,
lhe House a·t its r·:ising u n t .. i. l . +.: orno r· r'OIAI,
JunE:! l, c-..1t 2:00p . m.
L/.528 M<:~y 31, 1986 Vol XL No. 46 R2528
Index
Answe~s to Questions
tabled
May 31, 1988
1/88 Tuesday, March 15th, 1988 Question 189
. . L.' ' I. --·Ju_(.. ~~ ('-,' /f~n, I~ ·1 ~,3t)r;'<8'
---------·----
MR. DECKER (STRAIT OF BELLE ISLE) - TO ASK THE HONOURABLE THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION TO LAY UPON THE TABLE OF THE HOUSE
THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION:
(a) HOW MANY PEOPLE CURRENTLY WORK ON THE MINISTER'S STAFF?
(b) HOW MANY OF THESE PERSONS WERE APPOINTED BY ORDER IN COUNCIL?
(c) LIST EACH TITLE AND SALARY APPLIED TO THAT TITLE.
(d) TABLE A JOB DESCRIPTION FOR EACH ORDER IN COUNCIL
(e) WERE ANY OF THESE JOBS ADVERTISED IN ORDER TO GIVE THE UNEMPLOYED THE CHANCE OF APPLYING?
ANSWER
(a) Number of people presently working on Minister's staff - 3.
(b) Number of people appointed by Order in Council - 1.
(c) Minister's Secretary - $25,785. Minister's Secretary- $23,543. Executive Assistant $36,356.
(d) See Attached.
(e) No. Both secretaries are career Public Servants - 18 years +
and 13 years +, respectively. Executive Assistant appointed -
left the Federal Public Service to accept position.
i'
DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES
SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE MINISTER OF EQUCATION
Responds to requests from constituents and the general public at large regard~ng government policy and programs in the department and government in general. Follows up on such requests and advises the Minister of sensitive or important aspects of such requests.
Routinely prepares letters of congratulations to recognize significant achievements of constituents.
Maintains close liaison with various community groups in the Minister's district. Advises the Minister of matters of concern, problems being experienced, projects needing assistance, current issues in the district or the Province, matters that may come to attention regarding the Department and any other matters the Minister may require information for future action by either the Minister or the Special Assistant.
Takes steps to maintain high district profile of the Minister both in the district or provincial level.
Responds to requests for speaking · engagements tn the district and from any group or organization anywhere. Initiates speaking engagements for the Minister on topical subjects from time to time.
co-ordinates the preparation of notes for speaking engagements.
Confirms and arranges meetings individuals requiring direct researching subject matter for possible course of action.
for Minister with consultation while
meeting and advising ·
Arranges logistical details of dinners, receptions, etc. being hosted by the Minister in any location in the world. Insures proper protocol for inviting guests, insures any problems that may arise are acted upon expeditiously.
Represents Minister on committees as requested.
various interdepartmental
Represents Minister upon request at speaking engagements for which he is unavailable.
~eats dele~ations on behalf of Minister, takes al)propriate action in consultation with the Minister. · . .
I j,
' Regularly attends Hause cf Assembly sittings. Prepares and compiles nates fer debates in the Hause cf Assembly. cc-crdinates preparation cf replies tc questions en the Order Paper.
Maintains close liaise~ with Special ether Ministers. Ensures · requests Ministers are dealt with expeditiously. ·
Aaaiatanta tc from ether
Becomes familiar with programs and policies cf the Department and the government at large affecting constituents, the business community, and general public at large,
Other duties which may arise cr be assigned from time tc time.
•
•, .
CONTENTS
TUESDAY. 31 MAY I 1988.
l~ e port fr·o rn P a r l :i~a me n tar !l F q r·um on Si: a tu s of the Di s a b) e ~- : Mr . Sp~~ ker (McNicho las ) . ....... . .. ... .. .......... .. ... 2~68
Statements by Ministers
.P r:i. v i"_tg_j)<-:~~~!;Q.r_, __ £m2.l9..Y..!!~HII:. pro 9 In r"\lllllle lLpr.l i,·\ l : c~ : Ml'' . Me i. hHlAJ f. .... .. .. .. ... ... , .............. , .. .... , .. . .. 2469 M r• . Dec k I·~ t ' .... . . ' ..... . . ' . . .. ... . ' ' ... ' . ' ' ' . ...... ... ' . 24-6 9 Mr. l ony .. ..... .. . ..... .......... ... . .... . .. ....... . . .. 2470
J:Li. g l'li.Aiii\ y • .£.2& t r· u .c 1: L o ll-9?.D .. t.t:~.c L: s (l n no u n c; c d : Mr·. DoyJ. e . .. . .... . . . . . ............ .... ..... . .... . ...... 2470 Mr· . Gi.lb~:! r·t ..... . ...... . .... .. ...... . .... .. ........ .. . . 2472 Mr·. Fe nwi c k ............... . .......... . ..... . . . . ... ... . . 24-73
.§al_~!...~.~~--.!\I_~ !IJ Can~·\clia n Fi.9 .. H..I::~-?. b_tct ti n.9 .. At> $9 C i.atto n Pr· es i.den~ : Mr . Bu tt . .... .......... . ..... . ...... . .. . ..... . ..... . ... 24-73 Mr• . His co c I< ... .... ... . •..... . .. • .. ..•... .• ... •.•..• •.• • 2 4 'll~ Mr·. Lo ng ............... . . .... ...... . . .. . . . ...... . .. .... 24-74
Oral Questions
t l __ ywf o 11 nd 1.:1 nd Rr.\ :i. l l.1.l f.l !I : PJ ~~bjs c' . te o n its disconl: t nuan ce. Mr. Wells , P r· c:. HI i c:H' P e c I< Ford . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ·. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 'I· 7 5
f> ~ ~;c u sc:lo n s l.ldth feder·al ~~ o v~~ r· r1ffl e n t o n a p l <~ b :i. sc :i.·l". t:: Cont·l .i. i: i.ons 1 . 1nr l r-~ r· lAih i.c; h d:i.~• ccH I ~ nu ar1ce mi ght tr..\k e pJ.ace . Mr· . Wells , P r· €:~ rn .l €! r• P ';. c I< fo r· d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4. 7 5
~-....
tl.E I" u r.!.5L. P r· o ·i €~ c t:. : l!; ·U1(~ Prom:i.er· dJsassocJi'll:tng h:ims€:!lf fr·om pr·ojoc ·l:: Can't: take t:hf~ hoi:-11'.: any1nor'H. Mr·. Ral<(cH', Pr·em:l.er· P€~ckfor·d.. ....... .. .. . ........... 2475
r~ E:! f u s d l t o a n s IAJ e:1 r· s h o t•.J s d i. s d a 'i. n f o r· t:. h ~1 H o u s E! . M r· . B a k e r· , P r· E! rrd. E! r· P E! c k f o r d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 7 6
Asks P.r·ern:i.E!r' to pr·ov·idf~ ansiAIEH's to Jist. of questions tabled. Mr. Baker ............................ 2476
I~ e s l g I! at "ions f r· o l_!l__F e r_'.I:JI.. Co rnrn .i. i:·. l:. of:! : Aware three members have resigned . Mr·. c -i.J. I:HH' 1·.: I Mr. Doylf~. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...... ..... . ..... . 2lf.76
Causo of resignations. Mr. Gilbert, M r· . D o y l. ~~ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 '7 6
P J a n :. t o I" e p 1 i'l c e t h o s e:1 lA I h o r· €~ s :i. g n E'' d . Mr·. c ·.LI her· L I Mr'. Doyl f.! ............. ...•... ..• •. .•..••. • ?.47'7
!:1 . .!:! .. t!.:U~ .. LPi:~.l._ .. _c,~~f2~t.ts~l..J.~.9!2.k.L .. Y.l:.:.~U-E.~ .. ~:.~\~ .. f~ : H o u ~; f~ 11 HHIII:H,1 r' s o p p n s 'i. [:(~ b e o n no !-. i. f "i. f:! d . Ml''. I...U!>h, Ml". Br·ett: ..... .. .... .. .... . . ............ 24-77
Pt:!r'nJJtt:i.ng p:i.f~COIIJt,'dl dnnol.JncoJnf'!l'lL.s or·odes l'-1:in:i.sl:.E:!Y' 1 S C\Ut.hor·:ity and :i!; r.l d:i.scolH'b~!SY
l.: o t.:l'w H o u s f:! . M r· . I . u s h , M r· . B r· c-d·. t. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 t.f-7 8
FPI: Mii1ister 1 s plan to have FPI 'clean up t. h c,1 rn e:1 s s t. he y c r' c,1 a i:. E~ d ' be f o r· e e x pd. n cl i n q operations outside the Province. Mr . Fenwick, Mr. R:id~~out .............. ....... .... .. . . ... . .
St. Lawrence and Port aux Basques ]eft in a J.u r c h b ~~ c au s ~'! F P I u :; e d 'i. L s p r· o F i t s F o r' expans:ion outside Province. Mr. Fenwick,
. . . ... . 2W78
M r· . R i. d l~! o u t . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 7 9
What 1E:lV€H'S lE:1F"t: to for'CE• F Pl Lo lj ve up t. o 'i. t. s o b l. i. g d 1.: i o n s . M r· . F o n IAJ :i c k , M r· . R t d e o u i: . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1.~ 7 9
FADA: What r·epreSE!ntat.:ions werE! madE! t.o OttaiAJa for r:Li.d: Why IAJas it: r·efus~~d. Mr·. Tulk, Mr. R:idc,~out .............. .. . ... . . . ............ . . . ...... 2480
R (;! q 1.1 (~ s 1.: s 1: a b 1. :i n g of c o r· r· C:! !> p o n d f:! n c f.! : () IAJ a r· (~ n e s s of those opposed: Rationale of those opposed. M r· . r·11ll< , M r' . ~~ J. d f~ o u 1: ....... .. ... . ........... . .. . . . ... . 2 t+ B 0
Requests the MinisLer find out what is h r)\ p p lHl"i. n g . M t' . r u l k I rk . f?. i d H C) 1.1 t: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . ' . 2 4 8 1
H e i:t] l . h C i'.l Y' E:! :
W'TJJ- g(lU(!rr]rnenL bu :ild morE:! hornes for SE!nior c :i. t oi. :z. ~=! n s to g (~ 1:. l.: h em o' 1 t o f h o s p J t: r:-11. I:H:! d s . M r· . F f f o I" d , D I" . co 11 i n s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24· 8 1
()re beds in smaller hosp :i tclls to be closed. Mr·. Fffor·d, Dr·. Collin s ... .. ............... ............ 24·82
R ~~ i.:l ~; o n s f o r· h o s p .-1. t i::tl. b ('! d c l. o ~; u t' e ~: i n S u rnrn f~ t' .
Mr·. Effor·d, Dr·. CoJ.ltns ................. . ........... .. . 24.83
.. !iC:1s i gnc:l. l:·.ions fr·or!L Cur:.r i.cul.urn c;;ornrnittee: If lhe decision was not rational , what terms of r· c~1 f e t' c:Hl c c:1 I~HH' E! u s C"! d . M r· . D c,1 c k fH' , M r· . H f~ a r n . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 8 4
Has the Minister rnet with those who resigned . M r· ' D H c k (:! r· I M r . H (~ ril r· n . . . ' . . . . . ' . ' . ' . . ' . . . . . ' ' . . . . . . ' . . . 2 4 8 5
Notices of Motion
I~(~IJ:i.se i:1nd Co n s ol'i.ddt: (,1 Lr:ll~J_f~q_ ~;peet: 'i.ng .T onanc.i. E:1S:
Pl"em:ier· Pockford, for Mr·. Youn~~ · . . . . .......... . ... . .. . . 24-8'7
Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given
.§.,l: ucj t!1 r11: i; r' Ot.lb18d . ..2..Y~_r-bi. ng t:! r' b.· nkr'Lipl·: c )J. : Mr· . M at.t.l'l<~~~AJS ... ...... ... .... . .......................... 2ll.87
Qf__f -i. G.SL.~t? ·~£ : Mr·. l-leclr·n .............. . ............... . ........ . ... . .. 2488
liic t n_g of Ft r· <~l _F · ghUH'l>: Mr·. I~ . Ay ltAJi:'\r'd ........ . .. ....... ...•.. ...... , . .. ....... 2488
Petitions
.TX.:.tl n !> p _o ,~ l:f·' ~.- i. 1) l'.!..t.-D.. u r· g f~ o R ') i::l d c o n c:l t .tl.9..E!i : M r· . ·· :i J. b e r· t· . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4· 0 9 Mr·. l .u s h .. .. . .. .. . ... . ......... .... .................... 2 491 Ml". 11oy J E:! ....•..........•••................• .••.. •. ... • 24·9 2
0 0 0
_~; t: '-" n d j, n g 0 r· d !~ r _ 2 3 , f i. ~' h p 1. i,., n ~~ G 1. o !~ u r· 9 s : Mr . W. Ca r ter, as ks leave .............................. 2493 Mr·. Sllmns ....... . ......•................... .. . .. . . . ... . 21.1.9 4 Mr' . Tul l< .. .. .......... ............................ ..... 2 4·94· Mr·. S pea ke r·, t·ult~~s 111a ·l·: b :H' out. of order .. . ... . .. . . . ..... 2495
Orders of the Day
~:LLll .. .-N.9..~ ... -... £ : Mr·. F~~niAJick, continues d ebate . . .. .... . ....... . .... . .... 2 4-95 Mr·. l .. t.lsh ...... . . ................. . .... . ..... . .......... 2l~99 Ml". W0J] s ..... . . ........ . .............. ... . . . . .. ..... .. 250'~ Mr. M.:-\l': I":I'WIAJS, closing c:lobc:d':.e:1. , ... . . . ........ . ... . . . .. . . 2504-
R7i J No . ?. , c:a l· ·y•:j E:!d .. . ................ . . .. .. . . ..... . ... 2 507
Bil l No . lfl: 111" . Co] J :.i I'J !;. nwv~. s ~:.;~~co nd R ~~a rU ng .... . .. . ... . .......... 2508 Mr . fff t) r' d . .. . .. . ...... . .. .... . . ... . .. .. . ... . .... . . .... /.5 09 Ml". FP. J· ,t~d. r k .. . .. . . . . . ...... . ........ . ...... . .. ..... . ... 2513 M r• . I< . A y Jl!hH' d . . . . . . . • . . . • . . . . . . • • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 5 2 4-MI'' . I( . Ay war•d, i!HJ j OIH' Il S debe te .... . ... ... .. ... ........ 2527
Ad j o "' r n rn on 1: M o :-. i. () n . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 52 8