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Pete-zzaLifetime Member

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Re: New KitchenAid DoughMaking Method

« Reply #200 on: December 02, 2009,

11:08:13 AM »

Quote from: norma427 on December 02, 2009, 10:23:13 AM

This is off topic, but since you mentioned in this thread about trying to get your doughtemperature down, did you ever try putting ice cubes in plastic bags or something similarand either tie with twine or use a large rubber band around the mixing bowl to keep thetemperature of your finished dough lower? Just thought I would mention this while it isfresh in my mind.

Norma,

No, I have never tried that method. Using a refrigerated bowl, which is whatyou would be doing, is something that commercial frozen dough producersoften do to make dough that is to be frozen, as I noted recently at Reply 26at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9121.msg84545.html#msg84545. The closest I ever came to doingwhat you suggested was when I made a dough where I used only crushed iceor ice cubes, that is, no water in liquid form. I discussed the results at Reply28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1931.msg17086.html#msg17086. See also Reply 31 athttp://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1931.msg17097.html#msg17097. In fact, sometime when you can setaside some time just to read, you might read the entire thread.

Peter

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norma427Supporting Member



11:19:05 AM »

Peter,What I meant was do you think your finished dough temperature could godown lower with ice cubes or dry ice attached to the outside of your mixing

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New KitchenAid Dough Making Method http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.200.html

1 of 8 26/05/2013 03:24 p.m.

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bowl? That is why I asked if you ever tried this method to get your finisheddough temperature down. I was only thinking about this because you live ina warmer climate.Norma

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11:31:05 AM »


I agree that the 8 day fermentation dough was close to over fermenting. I noticed whenopening the dough it felt like little honeycomb structures in the dough. Was that what youare talking about when you said my gluten structure was weakened by the proteaseenzymes attacking the gluten structure? I added the picture of the deli case so you could see I kept the dough in the bottom righthand corner to keep it as cold as I could.Yes, I can now see how the cold dough handled better than the warmed up dough. The firstdough ball I tried just wanted to tear, so that is why I just tried it right out of the deli case.I would like to try this experiment again. I would like to try with adding IDY either later or atthe end and still go for an 8 day fermentation to see what the results would be. Do youthink I should lower the IDY any more at this point?Let me know which you want me to try to get the best results.I did really enjoy the taste of the crust. It was much better than my one day fermentation.

Norma,

Yes, the honeycomb characteristic that you mentioned is common with anoverproofed dough. Also, the dough may feel a bit wet and clammy, which iscaused by water in the dough being released from its bond after theprolonged fermentation period. I believe that the lighter crust color was alsoan additional effect of the overproofing.

I think I would try the late IDY addition method with an 8-day dough as yournext experiment. If you look back at the posts on that subject in this thread,you will see how I used the IDY late in the dough making process. If usingdry ADY is of any interest to you, the last time I used that method was withan 8-day Papa John's clone dough at Reply 48 athttp://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308.html#msg64308. In that case, I simply added the dryADY to the flour.

I meant to mention earlier the possibility of adding some sugar to yourdough formulation but waited to see how you used the IDY. In all of myexperiments with long-lived doughs in this thread, I did not add any sugar tothe dough. In looking at your photos, I thought that adding some sugarwould help provide more crust coloration. In retrospect, I believe that thatmade sense because of the way you made your dough with the IDY beingused in the normal fashion. However, for your next experiment, I would notadd any sugar to the dough. I would rather see the results before addressingthat issue.

Peter

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2 of 8 26/05/2013 03:24 p.m.


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11:37:14 AM »


What I meant was do you think your finished dough temperature could go down lower withice cubes or dry ice attached to the outside of your mixing bowl? That is why I asked if youever tried this method to get your finished dough temperature down. I was only thinkingabout this because you live in a warmer climate.

Norma,

I am sure that method would help. However, I discovered that if I freezeeverything, including the flour, yeast, water (a thin layer of ice in themeasuring cup), the mixer bowl and the flat beater attachment and theC-hook, I can get the finished dough temperature down to about 60-62degrees F. That is even lower than the 65 degree F finished doughtemperature that commercial producers of frozen dough balls strive for. So, Ithink I should be able to hit that target or come close to it even when it iswarm here in Texas.

Peter

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11:50:08 AM »

Peter,I will add the IDY last in this experiment and not do anything else differently.Thanks for you observations.Norma

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ThunderStikRegistered User

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10:34:53 PM »

Norma, I would add the IDY towards the tail end of your knead. After that Iwould only knead long enough to finish your regular knead session and onlylong enough to get good dispersion.

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06:18:53 AM »

ThunderStik,


3 of 8 26/05/2013 03:24 p.m.

Posts: 17023


Thank you for your suggestions. I plan on adding the IDY as the lastingredient and making sure the IDY is properly dispersed. I am going to usethe poppy seed trick to see if I can tell how much the dough has fermented. I also plan on using Glad containers to help me understand the poppy seedtrick.Thanks,Norma

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06:03:37 AM »

Peter,Since I want to try the “poppy seed trick” again, I purchased some Gladcontainers and they are 5.2 cups. I only purchased four because I want to try5 dough balls like I did before and just put four dough balls in the Gladcontainers and one dough in my regular plastic bag to see if there is anydifference in how the dough behaves. Are the 5.2 cups containers bigenough for my dough to expand? You had mentioned in other posts that you drill a hole in the lid of thecontainers. What diameter drill bit did you use? Is that something youwould recommend me doing to get my best results?The only other difference I will make in my dough formula is to add the IDYat the end of my mixing and only incorporate enough so it is disperseduniformly.Norma

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MatthewRegistered User

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06:23:04 AM »


You had mentioned in other posts that you drill a hole in the lid of the containers. Whatdiameter drill bit did you use? Is that something you would recommend me doing to get mybest results?

Norma

Hi Norma,You can make the hole using a small nail & a hammer. The reason for thehole is for the gasses to escape, without it, the lid may pop off.

Matt

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06:51:52 AM »


4 of 8 26/05/2013 03:24 p.m.

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Matt.Thank you for your advise. I did know the hole was for gasses to escape,but didn't know if the size of the hole mattered. Thank you for answering my question.Norma

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MatthewRegistered User

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06:58:43 AM »


Matt.Thank you for your advise. I did know the hole was for gasses to escape, but didn't know ifthe size of the hole mattered. Thank you for answering my question.Norma

No problem Norma. The smaller the hole the better.

Matt

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10:15:20 AM »


Since I want to try the “poppy seed trick” again, I purchased some Glad containers and theyare 5.2 cups. I only purchased four because I want to try 5 dough balls like I did before andjust put four dough balls in the Glad containers and one dough in my regular plastic bag tosee if there is any difference in how the dough behaves. Are the 5.2 cups containers bigenough for my dough to expand? You had mentioned in other posts that you drill a hole in the lid of the containers. Whatdiameter drill bit did you use? Is that something you would recommend me doing to get mybest results?

Norma,

I think your Glad containers are adequate to the task. With the small amountof yeast you are using, coupled with the cold fermentation, you aren't likelyto see such major expansion of the dough that it is likely to blow the coveroff.

With respect to the size of the holes in the lids of my containers, I eyeballedone of the lids this morning and I would say that I used a 1/16" drillbit.However, I believe that the lids of your Glad containers are quite thin andflexible, whereas my lids are fairly thick and rigid. So, I would do as Mattsuggests and just use a hammer and nail.

Peter

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torontonian Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making


5 of 8 26/05/2013 03:24 p.m.

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Method« Reply #212 on: December 04, 2009,

01:44:06 PM »

My dough finished the 7 day cold ferment. It hasn't risen at all. I left it outnow on the counter for about an hour. I opened the lid and smelled thedough. It smells like really strong whole wheat (the best way I can describeit). The dough is gummy to the touch.

Has it gone off? I'm weary to use it.

-- Josh

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02:10:18 PM »

Josh,

It's up to you, but I would let the dough warm up some more, especially if itis cool where you are in Canada. Even when a dough does not appear tohave risen during cold fermentation, it should expand more noticeably whenbrought to room temperature long enough, and it should become softer tothe touch. I usually remove the dough ball from its container when I bringthe dough out to room temperature and cover it with a sheet of plastic wrapso that it doesn't dry out at the exposed surfaces. If the dough ball is easy toopen up to form into a skin when you decide to use it, that is usually anindication that the dough is OK, at least in my experience.

Peter

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03:09:26 PM »

Josh,

I forgot to mention in my last post that when I remove the dough ball fromits container to warm up, I dust it with bench flour before covering it withthe plastic wrap. That helps absorb some of the surface moisture and keepsthe dough from sticking to my work surface.

Peter

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ThunderStikRegistered User

Posts: 331



03:21:21 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on December 04, 2009, 03:09:26 PM

Josh,

I forgot to mention in my last post that when I remove the dough ball from its container towarm up, I dust it with bench flour before covering it with the plastic wrap. That helpsabsorb some of the surface moisture and keeps the dough from sticking to my worksurface.

Peter

Peter, This is funny as I was thinking about how other people do this last


6 of 8 26/05/2013 03:24 p.m.

night, because ya just never know. I do it completely different.

I pull the balls out of their containers and put them on a well oiled surface tocome up to room temp and cover them with the same plastic that wascovering them in their containers (the plastic is oiled befor fermentation).

When its time to work the dough I only flour my hands a bit, just enoughthat the dough does not stick to them. I want to minimize the un-fermentedflour.

I wonder if that could have something to do with the tiny bubbles?

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03:33:06 PM »

Quote from: ThunderStik on December 04, 2009, 03:21:21 PM

I wonder if that could have something to do with the tiny bubbles?

Bill,

I tend to think not. Otherwise, I think you would find blistering in crustsmade from doughs fermented for a couple or hours or so (at roomtemperature). I have never seen them in such cases, even with the doughballs being coated with oil and using bench flour. There may be manyreasons for the small blisters forming, but I believe that the most commonexplanation is long fermentation times, whether at ambient temperature ofunder cold fermentation. At least that has been my experience making justabout all kinds of doughs under many different conditions.

To test your thesis, you can make a test emergency dough and use your oiledsurface/floured hands to see if you can create the blistering effect.

Peter

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torontonianRegistered User

Posts: 95



03:34:38 PM »

Well, the containers have been sitting out now for four hours. Zero rise.There are some gasses being released, as pressure seemed about to pop thelids off. The whole wheat aroma is almost overpowering.

Ideas? I reread the recipe a couple of times, and I'm sure I got it right.

-- Josh

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03:43:33 PM »


7 of 8 26/05/2013 03:24 p.m.

Posts: 19400

Location: Texas

Always learning

Josh,

The only way to get "zero" rise at this point would be because the yeast isdead. I would try opening up one of the dough balls to see if you can make afunctional skin out of it. After four hours, I would think that the doughshould be warm enough to work with.

Doughs that have fermented for long periods can have a variety of aromas. Idon't personally recall detecting a whole wheat aroma, or at least it did notregister with me as such.

Peter

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03:46:23 PM »

Josh,Here is a dough I had left in the deli case for 7 days and it look gray and notfull of life in any way. I proceeded to use it and it turned out okay. Doesyou dough look anything like this? My finished dough temperature of thatdough was 80 degrees F, the week before. It did smell strong.

Look at reply 54 under this

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9615.msg84235.html#msg84235

Norma

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