meeting proposed plan kane and lombard superfund … · 4 i'd like to formally introduce...

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M E E T I N G

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P R O P O S E D P L A N

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K A N E A N D L O M B A R D S U P E R F U N D S I T E

O P E R A B L E U N I T

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W E D N E S D A Y , J A N U A R Y

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P a t t e r s o n H i g h S

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Maryland: 4 10-653-1 11 5Washington: 202-628-DEPO (3376)Pax: 410-653-964!E-mail: credepo® gte.netWebsite: courtreportersetc.com

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IN ATTENDANCE:

Vance Evans, CIC, EPA

Chris Corbett, RPM, EPA

Gertrude M. Getz, Community Association

Marie Kyoriski, Community Association

Jeffrey Scambat, Arcades

Brian Stempowski, Arcades

Carl Kalbacher, MDE

Richard Wizner, PICORP

Pete Ludzia, EPA

Megan Dougherty, EPA

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f l R S O O O O U

1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (7 : 39 p.m. )

3 MR. EVANS: Good evening, everyone.

4 I'd like to formally introduce myself for

5 those -- I'd like to talk to a couple of people

6 afterwards. My name is Vance Evans. I am the

7 community involvement coordinator working with

8 Kane & Lombard's Superfund site.

9 And as you may know, at this time we

10 are here to talk about the second phase of work

11 that is going to be taking place at the site.

12 What I would like to ask, if that's

13 not a problem, is that we allow Chris to go

14 through his presentation and if you have

15 questions -- you know, unless -- if it's

16 something that you really would like at that

17 point to get some clarification on, we can always

18 stop. But it's always kind of good to let Chris

19 do his full presentation because a lot of

20 questions might be answered in the course of the

21 presentation. If not, I do have cards and

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1 pencils that I'm going to be handing out if you

2 would like them so you can jot down any notes

3 that you would like to have. It's pretty

4 informal and it's such a large crowd that 1 doubt

5 Chris i s going to mind stopping. But I'm pretty

6 sure he i. s going to cover just about everything

7 that could be covered at this time.

8 And without further ado, I am just

9 going to pass the baton on to Chris. And we are

10 taping - - I'm sure that our stenographer' will let

11 us know if they can't hear. And if you don't

12 mind, if you could state your name when you're

13 going to make a comment or ask a quest ion; that

14 way, we can have a properly recorded transcript.

15 That transcript will go into the record of

16 decision formally, so if there are any concerns

17 that you might have or questions, don't think

18 any -- any question you can come up with is one

19 that someone has probably thought of. And this

20 is an excellent time for you to ask any questions

21 that you have for the current work or any other

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1 aspects of the project or even about the general

2 Superfund process.

3 Chris.

4 MR. CORBETT: Thank you, Vance.

5 Again, my name is Chris Corbett. I am

6 the project manager for the Kane & Lombard

7 Superfund site. I have business cards with me if

8 anyone would like one at the end of the evening.

9 I have been working on the site for

10 about two years. And the purpose of our meeting

11 tonight is to discuss the Proposed Plan, which is

12 our proposed clean up. We have not made a final

13 decision. This decision is out for a comment

14 period that extends from December 20th to

1 5 January 2 2nd.

16 We will be discussing the results of

17 the investigation that was performed for the last

18 several years. We'll be discussing some of the

19 history of the site, what we've done before in

20 the past and what our clean up plans for the

21 future include.



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A little bit of background on the

site, the Kane & Lombard site is located right

down on the corner here. There is currently a

golf driving range over the area that was cleaned

up already. And that area, as well as the study

area, which extends on the other side of the

street, I have a map showing you exact boundaries

of the study.

AUDIENCE PARTICIPANT: Area that was

included.

AUDIENCE PARTICIPANT: Do you have

that to show - -

MR. CORBETT: Yes, I do. I will be

getting to that in a couple of slides from now.

That whole general area, right in the

intersection Kane & Lombard Street was used as

general dumping. There were drums that were

dumped there, there were hazardous substances in

some of those drums. There was construction

debris. Speaking to some of the owners of the

business in the area, there were a lot of junked

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cars and vehicles in the area. And that went on

for a good 20 years, including open burning.

There were a number of citations by the city

delivered. Open burning that happened at the

t ime .

In 1984, EPA removed the remnants of

over 1,000 drums, 1 , 1 6 3 drums. The reason I say

remnants is that when people bury drums, they

typically crush them before they put them in the

ground so they can save space. Unfortunately,

that is what happened at this site. I did see it

in most of our other sites as well.

In 1987, EPA covered that area with

what is called a multi-layer cap. And what that

does i s it prevents water from infiltrating into

the waste that was still remaining there. The

drums and some contaminated soil were excavated

and a lot of the contaminated soil and waste

material remain at the site.

There was also a slurry wall which is

basically an underground wall that surrounded the

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1 site that was also put in place. So we have a

2 clay cover on the top and a clay wall underneath

3 the ground surrounding all of the waste, and then

4 the water that was remaining in that area was

5 pumped down. We had a pumping system there as

6 well.

7 So basically we left all of the waste

8 material, what we call, high and dry. It's kind

9 of in tune with the Pyramids in Egypt.

10 AUDIENCE PARTICIPANT: Is this the

11 same thing you did at the dump down in - - near

12 the city line in Anne Arundel --

13 MR. CORBETT: I d o n ' t k n o w .

14 AUDIENCE PARTICIPANT: They --

15 MR. CORBETT: Unfortunately, I never

16 worked on that site so I don't know. It's not

17 uncommon to cover over the waste with a clay cap.

18 The slurry wall, that's a little bit more for the

19 sites that have a lot of waste left in place.

20 MS. GETZ : I arn Gertrude Getz from the

21 association and in this area as resident. Now,

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I've been with this -- what you're talking about

for many, many years, as I've said before, I've

been in the neighborhood for 52 years. Also a

school teacher in a private school. Now, you

have said that the dumps were removed. We were

also told that they were moved across on the

other side there at Lombard Street. Is t h i s true

or not ?

MR. CORBETT: That is not true. It is

my understanding that the drums were taken off

site, treated and disposed at an off site

locat ion.

MS. GETZ: They had led us to believe

that this is what had happened. That some of the

drums were moved and they were placed across on

Lombard Street. That some of them were s t i l l

there and they were having, you know, those

elevated pipes that were over there. Is that

what you're talking about, with the caps on them?

The reason I'm saying this is we --

when this all carne about, this is '70 now, our

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children used to play on that field up there. We

had our field days up there. And because --

during the course of the day when those children

were out there, the fumes, whatever substance was

in that field, whatever they had there, was a

horrible smell and it would get into your --

(Inaudible). And, I mean, I just happened to be

one of those people that was there.

So this is what I'm saying, I just

want to know, is it dangerous? How dangerous is

this? Are we -- is it going to prove that

this -- not going to be a problem? I just went

through that many, many years ago. I often

wondered -- we've had a lot of cases of medical

problems and people are deceased. I wonder

sometimes, looking back in this area, we've had

people die.

MR. CORBETT: To answer your question

regarding the dangers of the site, back in the

'70s, I don't doubt that they probably knew it

was dangerous. Based on the levels of

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contamination that we found -- even in the 1980s

when we started our first removal action there,

following that removal action by taking out the

drums and the contaminated soil with the drums,

which is what they did back in 1984, and then in

1987, covering that area over with the clay cap,

putting in the slurry wall around it and pumping

the water down, after those activities were

completed, I would say, no, that it wasn't

dangerous. If fact, we have a driving range on

top of there, we inspect the site monthly.

Currently, right now, that part of the property

is just fine, you know, for future use.

Now, the focus of tonight is the area

outside of that. Of course besi.. des the area

where the driving range is, the dumping was

fairly widespread around that whole Kane &

Lombard -- where that intersection is.

MS. GETZ: Yes, I know it was.

MR. CORBETT: Vance, can you go to the

next one there?

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1 I want to show you the map. I'll just

2 go through this in order.

3 MS. GETZ: We'll wait until you get to

4 t h e - -

5 MS. KYORISKI: I also have a question.

6 My name is Marie Kyoriski and I also live in the

7 neighborhood and I'm a member of the association.

8 I've lived here eight years.

9 You said that the drums were crushed,

10 were they crushed here and whatever was in them

11 removed or they took them to another site,

12 crushed them and brought them back? I am not

13 quite clear on that.

14 MR. CORBETT: Well, since no one from

15 EPA was present at the time of disposal, one can

16 only speculate. But what typically happens at

17 sites, drums are brought in, drums are buried and

18 they are brought in whole. But during the

19 process of burial, a lot of times the owners of

20 the sites crush the drums to squish them down,

21 somewhat like your recycling can.



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MS . KYORISKI : Was --

MR. CORBETT: And all of the sudden,

you start throwing in more and more aluminum

cans, it fills up. When mine gets filled up, I

know what I start doing (Demonstrating), 1 start

crushing the cans to make more room.

And what we find typically when we dig

up drums at sites -- and I know that was the case

here also -- you find crushed drums which 1 e a d s

you to believe that the drums came in intact and

then prior to them being buried, they were run

over by a front-end loader or a big piece of

equi pmen t .

MS. KYORISKI: W a s n ' t t h a t a c i t y

property? Would not the city have been

responsible for doing that?

MR. CORBETT: Actually, it was owned

by a private individual at the time.

MS. KYORISKI: Oh. D o y o u k n o w w h o i t

was?

MR. CORBETT: Yes. I have it- it's

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in the copy of the Proposed Plan, I believe. The

man's last name began with an "A. 1 1 A-Z-R-U-B-L

(phonetic), I think.

MS. GETZ: T o g o b a c k that far - - w e

all are in the dark about this whole situation.

What was the purpose of that? What was the

actual or reasoning for that?

MR. CORBETT: It was just open dumping

and burning. A lot of the activities were

illegal at the time.

MS. GETZ: Where did these drums come

from?

MR. CORBETT: Different locations all

over the place.

Let me work through the presentation,

okay, because they are all very good questions,

and hopefully at the end of the presentation if I

do my job, you'll have a much more c 1 e a r e r

understanding of not only what happened at the

site in the past, but really the purpose of this

is to look ahead to the future. How are we going

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1 5

1 to deal with the other problems that are

2 remaining? And there are some other' problems and

3 that's what this whole second operable unit or

4 second phase, that was the whole purpose of that.

5 MS. KYORISKI: Is there any way that

6 we can get a copy of this tape?

7 MR. CORBETT: Well, you have a copy of

8 all of the handouts. All of the slides that are

9 presented -- all of the slides that are being

10 presented are there, and if you'd like to get a

11 copy of the tape to show it to your civic

12 association --

13 MS. KYORISKI: Right, that's what

14 we're thinking about.

15 MR. CORBETT: - - w e can talk to Vanee

16 Evans .

17" MS. GETZ: Well, let's get your -

18 MR. CORBETT: Let me go through -- the

19 past history is very hard just because, you know,

20 there really wasn't anyone around at the time.

21 This was back in the '60s and '70s and even up to

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1 the early ' 80s .

2 MS. KYORISKI: W e d i . d n ' t g i v e i t a n y

3 thought. We thought it was just something that

4 was described by the city or whatever, nobody

5 ever fought it or said anything about it.

6 MR. CORBETT: This is not uncommon

7 when we look at all of the sites that we have

8 that were in the '60s and '70s. Years ago you

9 had a hole, what did people do, they filled it up

10 with stuff and buried it over.

11 So the reuse of the site, after we

12 cleaned up the first phase, in 1999 we

13 constructed a golf driving range and a parking

14 lot which is still there. In 2001, they

15 installed a cell tower. All of these activities

16 were done above the cap, outside of the area of

17 the slurry wall, although the driving range is

18 actually -- the slurry wall surrounds it

19 underneath the ground.

20 MR. EVANS: This is for reference on

21 the transcript, could you just identify what a

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1 cell tower is, some people --

2 MR. CORBETT: Oh, yeah. It would be a

3 phone cell tower. You know, for the transmission

4 of the cellular phones.

5 In 2003, they will be repairing wind

6 damage. They had some very bad wind damage this

7 summer. And they actually have some news poles

8 that have been brought on site this week

9 actually, and they will be repair-ing that w i t h i n

10 the next two weeks and putting up new netting.

11 Right now it's a little bit of an eyesore with

12 the way the netting got hit. They think it might

13 have been actually a small tornado or some just

14 very high localized winds where a number of the

15 poles actually snapped and fell to the ground.

16 No damage to the environmental aspects of it,

17 just a little unsightly to the naked eye.

18 The Study Area, the reason for the

19 meeting tonight is to talk about the Study Area

20 which is adjacent to the driving range. It

21 includes the drainage area down to Herring Run

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1 which is the name of the stream that runs right

2 underneath 1-95. And it also evaluates the

3 ground water. The ground water is contaminated

4 for about a mile and a half extending from the

5 site. And that will be a big part of the

6 discussion this evening, is, you know, what: are

7 the concerns with ground water? Fortunately, no

8 one drinks ground water in this area. Everyone

9 is on city water and the water comes from several

10 miles away from a safer source. So fortunately,

11 no one is drinking the ground water.

12 If you don't mind, I'm going to walk

13 up to the stage here and just point out a couple

14 of areas. Where we are is actually right around

15 here. Here's the athletic -- oh, here we go,

16 Madison High School.

17 MS. GETZ: Right .

18 MR. CORBETT: Here's the athletic

19 field. This area right above me is where the

20 slurry wall is and that was the first part of the

21 Superfund site.

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1 The Study Area is the area just above

2 that. There's PICORP. Building over there where

3 all of the storage containers are stored.

4 Regester Photo. CTI Trucking. Here's 1-95 and

5 North Point Boulevard is right up at the top

6 there. So this area here where you see the

7 dotted line, that was the boundary of the area

8 that -- in aerial photographs we can tell was

9 impacted at different times in the 1960s, '70s

1 0 and up to the ' 80s.

11 The area of ground water

12 contamination -- we'll show you later with a map

13 that shows the actual plume -- comes down over

14 this area, cross Baltimore Street and actually

15 extends down off the map past Eastern Avenue. We

16 have another map later on that will show that.

17 Okay, there were four corporations

18 that paid for the investigation. It was a very

19 elaborate investigation that led to several

20 years. We installed 22 boreholes and 40 gas

21 samples from the soil. Basically, it's a tube

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1 that goes into the ground and they pump the air

2 out of the ground to see if chemicals would come

3 out .

4 In addition, the ground water has 43

5 monitoring wells.

6 Yes, ma'am.

7 MS. KYORISKI: Chris, are those four

8 corporations named in this report?

9 MR. CORBETT: No, they are not. Tf

10 you would like, I could provide you that answer

11 right now.

12 MS. KYORISKI: Okay.

13 MR. CORBETT: Lucent Technologies,

14 Baltimore Gas & Electric, which is now called

15 Nuclear Constellation Services, Browning Ferris

16 Industries and General Motors.

17 MR. SCAMBAT: Browning and Ferris is

18 now called Allied Waste.

19 MR. CORBETT: It's now called Allied

20 Waste? Thank you, Jeff.

21 MS. GETZ: Thanks.



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1 MR. CORBETT: In additional to that,

2 they also took sediment samples from eight

3 locations, surface water samples from seven

4 locations. They evaluated the natural resources

5 in the area because we were doing an ecological

6 assessment as well, and also ground water

7 modeling. We'll be talking about that --

8 MS. KYORISKI: What does that mean,

9 ground water modeling?

10 MR. CORBETT; Ground water modeling is

11 basically a computer sirnulati on of how ground

12 water flows and how the chemicals migrate under

13 the surface of the ground. To enable us to

14 predict what will this site look like in 15

15 years, 30 years, even 75 years.

16 MS. KYORISKI: How long have you been

17 using that ?

18 MR. CORBETT: That's been in the

19 industry for probably a good 15 years. That was

20 the first time I saw it. It might have been

21 around even before that.

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Ecological assessment which 1

mentioned, also a human health risk assessment,

what are the concerns, what are the risks to

people, which obviously is a main concern of the

conimun i t y .

MS. KYORISKI: It is, definitely.

MR. CORBETT: And then also the

geology and chemistry of the ground water which

was also very important. I'll be talking about

that a little bit. The cost of the treatment

aspects and how do you clean it up.

What did we find? We found elevated

lead and antimony in subsurface soils.

Subsurface soils; meaning, not at the surface of

the ground but below the ground. Between 4 and

12 feet below the ground. And I have a map that

will be showing the exact area where we found the

elevated lead --

MS. GETZ: Can you define antimony for

me?

MR. CORBETT; Yes. Antimony is a


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1 metal similar to calcium, magnesium, arsenic.

2 You know, it's a naturally occurring metal

3 similar to lead.

4 MS. GETZ: See, going back over this,

5 Chris, I just want to say this area is filled-in

6 land. All of these homes from Home 11 (phonetic)

7 Street down are -— were laid out and formulated

8 on filled land.

9 MR. CORBETT: We've noticed the same

10 thing up near the site during our excavation.

11 MS. GETZ: Right .

12 MR. CORBETT: It's very obvious when

13 you dig down into the ground the first couple of

14 feet, you're in fill material.

15 MS. GETZ: You're in filled ground.

16 This is why I'm saying -- we'll get into other

17 things about water later, but go ahead with your

1 8 presentat i on.

19 MR. CORBETT: Thank you. And also

20 volatile organic contaminants. We call them

21 VOCs. We found a lot of those in the ground


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1 water. And what those are are things like

2 trichloroethene, TCE, or dichloroethene, DCE and

3 vinyl chloride. It also includes things like

4 benzene and PCE.

5 A volatile organic chemical, the best

6 way to describe it is if you were to unscrew a

7 cap -- a can of gasoline and all of the sudden

8 you start smelling the odors coming off, those

9 are volatile; meaning, they come off into the

10 air, things that evaporate very readily.

11 These types are typical degreasers.

12 Things like -- let's say you were washi. ng grease

13 off of a mechanical part as an example, you might

14 use a substance like TCE. Or if you're cleaning

15 grease off of your driveway, brake cleaner is

16 another example of a TCE -- excuse me, of a

17 volatile organic contaminant.

18 So we found a little bit of

19 contamination in the soil, we found a lot of

20 contamination in the ground water and fortunately

21 from an environmental aspect, only very limited



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1 contamination in the surface water and sediment.

2 We did look at all of the different drainage

3 areas right around that --

4 Soil contamination, as I said, it's

5 between 4 and 12 feet in the subsurface. It's

6 right adjacent to the intersection. The best way

7 to describe it is if you were standing right in

8 the middle of the intersection of Kane and

9 Lombard Street, there would some of it below your

10 feet and there would be the lion's share of it on

11 the other side of the street near the businesses

12 in the area over towards PICORP, Regester Photo

13 and CTI trucking.

14 We only found the antimony elevated at

15 a level of concern at one location, so it's not a

16 widespread problem.

17 MS. KYORISKI: What location?

18 MR. CORBETT: The lead we found at

19 five locations. And, Vance, if we can put up the

20 next slide, please, we'll show you the exact

2 1 area.

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flR500027

26

1 T hehashed-outarea -- see this, t his

2 is a section of Kane and Lombard Street which is

3 maybe 20 feet or so to the north, northeast of

4 that. In the center of that hashed-in area is

5 where the antimony was. That little -- blip,

6 (Inaudible) there. So that's where the antimony

7 was located. Right in between -- it's really

8 right in between the three business that are

9 right there.

10 Fortunately, it's not on the surface.

11 Knowing that it's very -- only one sample was at

12 four feet, the majority of them were actually at

13 six and eight feet and one of them went down to

14 12 feet .

15 So we're very fortunate that did not

16 hit the surface. People that are working in that

17 area, we'll be talking about risks to them. As

18 far as surface soils, there's not any problem at

19 all, which is a very good aspect of thi. s. Very

20 positive aspect.

21 Ground water contamination, here we

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/IR500028

27

1 go, one and a half miles, extensive - - what I

2 would call extensive -- VOC contamination. The

3 highest area is between 1-95 and Eastern Avenue.

4 It's migrating quite a ways away from the site

5 now. And the highest area isn't even near the

6 site at this time.

7 We also found iron and manganese.

8 When you have these volatile organic chemicals,

9 it's quite common to have iron and manganese come

10 out of the rock (phonetic) because of the

11 reaction that is going on between the chemicals

12 and the ground water and the surrounding soil,

13 iron and manganese come out of the material -

14 the natural material -- and come into solution.

15 We also have thallium with a question

16 mark. It was another one of those one-hit

17 wonders. One sample, one well, elevated

1 8 thallium.

19 MS. GETZ: Could you define that?

20 MR. CORBETT: Thallium is another

21 naturally occurring element of metal. You hear

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flR500029

1 of thallium sometimes in the medical, field - -

2 MS. GETZ: Yes.

3 MR. CORBETT: --where they do

4 thallium tests. I think my mom actually had a

5 test where they injected thallium in because of

6 heart problems.

7 So it's a naturally occurring metal.

8 Why is it elevated in that one spot, we really

9 don't know. And the reason I have a question

10 mark there is when we do our monitoring over" the

11 next several decades, we'll keep an eye out for

12 thallium as well as the iron and manganese. And

13 we don't anticipate it being a problem. We think

14 it's probably one of those things that you see,

15 you know, flash-in-the-pan type of thing. If it

16 does turn out to be a site-related problem, then

17 obviously, you know, we'll have to deal with

18 that. But again, fortunately, no one is drinking

19 the water.

20 And it's not uncommon even with

21 naturally occurring elements to once in a while

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flR500030

29

1 see a high hit of thallium or to see a high hit

2 of vanadium or- some of these other, you know,

3 very uncommon metals.

4 Major point here. I've mentioned it

5 before, I'll mention it a couple of times: No

6 one drinks the ground water and we're very

7 fortunate in that respect. Municipal water is

8 supplied to the residents. So although we have

9 this problem underneath the ground -- and when I

10 say "underneath," I mean, this goes down to,

11 like, 165 feet below the ground. I mean, the

12 closest place where we have ground water that: is

13 contaminated is probably about 30 feet below the

14 surface. And as you move away from the site, it

15 gets deeper and deeper as it migrates.

16 Here's a picture of the plume. Here's

17 our site, you can see Lombard Street and Kane

18 Street coming in. And I guess you'd call that --

19 it's not a parallelogram, it's not a square.

20 That somewhat rectangular piece there is operable

21 unit one, the area with the clay cap and the area

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flR50003l

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1 with the slurry wall.

2 And you can see the central area of

3 the plume now is here between Baltimore Street

4 and Eastern Avenue with the first edges of the

5 plume extending well beyond, like, 48th Street,

6 and that development over there. I guess we have

7 the cemetery up on the other side of Eastern

8 Avenue ----- so it has migrated.

9 MS. GETZ: I t i s j u s t o f f t o t h e r i g h t

10 of Kane?

11 MR. CORBETT: Yes. Here's

12 Interstate 95, here's Eastern Avenue. If you

13 know where Midas is -- the Midas shop is on

14 Eastern Avenue -- this well right there is in the

15 back parking lot of Midas.

16 So when we talk about Eastern Avenue,

17 we talk about how we're going to attack this

18 ground water contamination and treat it and clean

19 it up over the next decades, we'll be

20 concentrating on the area of Eastern Avenue

21 because by treating it in that area you can see



flR500032

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this plume has been migrating, boom, boom, boom,

boom -- here's front of the highest area. But

we'll be talking about that more in detail as we

go on .

Okay, ecological, assessment, there was

contamination in the surface water and sediment.

It was limited to one area, in a drainage ditch

behind PICORP, which is the industry with all of

the containers stacked up. Is everyone familiar

with that? There is a drainage ditch between

that and the railroad.

MS. KYORISKI: Off of Lombard, behind

where -

MR. CORBETT: Yes. All the way in the

back there. It's not an area that's readily

accessible. And the levels of contamination that

we found there really were nothing of, you know,

great significance. It's not an area where you

have a whole lot of critters using the

environment. There's a little stretch of woods

probably -- maybe about as wide as from here to

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flR500033

32

1 the railing there. Maybe 20, 30 feet wide or so.

2 Is it worth investigating, certainly. If there

3 was major contamination back there should we

4 attack it, we certainly should. If there is only

5 limited contamination like what we found, it's

6 really not even worth going after. I mean, it's

7 that little and it's not an area where it's going

8 to have any meaningful significance even to the

9 critters that live back there.

10 The other thing we're interested in

11 was Herring Run. Herring Run is actually coming

12 back to be a very nice stream. We were down

13 there doing an ecological visit one day --

14 actually, I think Brian Stempowski, who is a

15 project manager for the companies was there at

16 the time. And we saw herring back there, egrets.

17 MS. KYORISKI: The people in that

18 community have really done a lot, too, to help

19 clean up that stream, that's why.

20 MR. CORBETT: It really looks nice

21 back there. I mean, it's funny, you look up and



flR50003i»

33

1 there's 1-95, 1-95 and the cars were literally

2 going, you know, right over our heads. And down

3 underneath there was quite a nice environmental

4 setting for your fish and your birds and

5 wildlife, et cetera.

6 No current impacts back in there. I

7 mean, we're very fortunate. Were there impacts

8 in the past?

9 AUDIENCE PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible.)

10 MR. CORBETT: You know, there probably

11 were. But right now -- and I say probably, we

12 have no information to even base that on. Just

13 looking at the site, looking at the chemicals, if

14 there were any impacts 20, 30 years ago, they're

15 not relevant, you know, today. And to go back

16 there and try to even do a cleanup would probably

17 harm this environment more than even trying to

1 8 help it.

19 Risks -- fortunately no unacceptable

20 risks to residents in the area or workers exposed

21 to surface water, surface soil, sediments or the

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OR500035

34

1 air. You can walk around the area, you can live

2 in the area, you can play in the area. It's not

3 a problem.

4 The only problem -- Vance, can you put

5 that back on for one second -- is the

6 construction workers. What if -- we always play

7 the what-if scenario, try to look into the future

8 to protect people even though there are scenarios

9 that we don't have today. What if one of the

10 businesses was to go back and, let's say, try to

11 expand their buildings and they wanted to dig

12 four or six or eight feet into the ground? Yes,

13 then there could be a problem. We wouldn't want

14 those workers to be exposed to the lead or

15 antimony.

16 So that's the only concern for the

17 construction workers.

18 We also have potential future risks to

19 people should they use ground water. Okay. The

20 ground water, although it's not being used at

21 this time, it is what we call a natural resource



flR500036

35

1 and a resource of the State of Maryland. And

2 even though people aren't drink i n g it: right now,

3 should we just ignore it and walk away from the

4 site? Well, that probably wouldn't be the

5 responsible thing to do, and I would certainly

6 disagree with that.

7 If people were to use it -- the levels

8 of contamination are so high that if people were

9 to use the ground water over a lifetime -- let's

10 say this was a different location and people had

11 wells and they were using the water, we estimated

12 that up to nine out of ten people could have a

13 serious ailment. And by a serious ailment, you

14 know, we include cancer as well as other, you

15 know, serious medical problems.

16 AUDIENCE PARTICIPANT: Was there use

17 of ground water back then?

18 MR. CORBETT: Not that I have seen.

19 Now, I haven't checked to actually see when

20 everyone was hooked up to municipal water. I

21 think it was way back when.

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flR500037

36

1 AUDIENCE PARTICIPANT: Never.

2 MR. CORBETT: There were never wells

3 there. Thank you. That's where we brought some

4 of their -- some of our experts into this

5 investigation with us.

6 Again, I ought to say this one other

7 time, it's important to note that the ground

8 water is not used and that's a very fortunate

9 thing for us. Very fortunate.

10 And there are no plans in the

11 foreseeable future. We contacted the water

12 companies and asked them, "Do you have any plans

13 to use ground water in this area?" And the

14 response, you know, all across the board was,

15 "No, we have no plans."

16 And they were actually planni.. ng out 20

17 years, 30 years, 50 years into the future. So

18 they were looking long-term.

19 Okay, what about clean up objectives?

20 Well, it's to reduce the contamination in ground

21 water to acceptable levels. Our goal is to get



UR500038

37

1 it down to drinking water levels at some point in

2 time. With the amount of contamination we have,

3 it's not anything that we can achieve quickly,

4 but that is our long-term goal.

5 Also, minimize the further spread of

6 the contamination. It's already moved a mile and

7 a half, we don't want it to move further.

8 Although what you find with sites is typically

9 after 10 years, 20 years, you have a stable

10 plume. What happens is it migrates out just so

11 far and then the edges, because of dil. ution, you

12 know/ it just doesn't go much further.

13 But we'll be monitoring that and

14 that's one of our goals is to minimize the

15 spread, to make sure it's not continuing to

1 6 spread.

17 Also to eliminate, to totally

18 eliminate the possible use of that water - - of

19 ground water by humans and also to manage the

20 exposure to those contaminated subsurface soils,

21 the area where we have the elevated lead and the

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flR500039

1 one hit of antimony.

2 We came up with a number of

3 alternatives. The next step in the process now,

4 we've defined the area of the investigation,

5 we've gone out, we've collected our samples,

6 we've looked at the contamination, we've

7 developed our clean up objectives, now we're in

8 the stage during this process over the Last

9 couple of years, of putting together clean up

10 alternat i ves.

11 Well, the one that we're regui. red to

12 do is No Action. EPA requires us to look at No

13 Action as a baseline to compare the other

14 alternatives.

15 We also looked at what is called

16 Monitored Natural Attenuation and Institutional

17 Controls. Monitored Natural Attenuation is

18 basically monitoring the natural spread of the

19 material. It's basically do nothing but look

20 back and watch. Because what we'll talk about in

21 more detail, there are actually biological and

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flRSOOOUO

39

1 physical processes in place that break down

2 chemicals in ground water. Some of them are

3 physical, some of them are biological, some are

4 chemical. And we'll talk about that. There will

5 be a little bit of an educational session on what

6 happens to the contamination in ground water'.

7 And I'll try to move through it guickly so 1

8 don't bore you too long with it.

9 But needless to say, one of the

10 alternatives here was to basically observe the

11 contamination and also to put in place

12 institutional controls. And wha. t that is,

13 institutional controls are ways that we prevent

14 the use of ground water, ways that we prevent

15 houses from being built in contaminated areas. A

16 lot of these controls are actually already in

1 7 place.

18 The other thing we looked at was

19 pumping and treating the ground water, which is

20 your standard, typical, class i cal approach to

21 treating ground water that's been done on

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hundreds of sites throughout the country. And

that's basically pump the water out of the

ground, send it to a treatment plant, treat the

water and then discharge it either into a stream

or back i. nto the ground.

The other proposed alternative that we

have open for public comment i. s called Enhanced

Reductive Dechlorination and also the

institutional controls. What Enhanced Reductive

Dechlorination is, it works with those natural

processes, it enhances the natural processes to

break down the chemicals and we do that by

injecting organic matter, organic material, i. nto

the ground as a nutrient source.

you

AUDIENCE PARTICIPANT: Molasses that

MR. CORBETT: Exactly. What we're

thinking for this one is molasses would work very

well. We'll talk about a lot of these things in

more detail. I'm sure you have some questions

but let me move forward here.

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41

1 Just very quickly we'll talk about the

2 No Action alternative. Some bi. odegradati on, some

3 natural degradation would continue to occur. We

4 would not meet our clean up objectives, and the

5 cost to do this no action alternative i. s zero

6 dollars. We would basically sit down -- we

7 wouldn't even take samples and monitor it. We

8 would just do nothing. And that's what we'll

9 compare some of these things to.

10 It would provide a baseline to compare

11 the alternatives. There would be no additional

12 clean up measures put in place other than the

13 ones that have been done already at the site and

14 the contamination would continue to migrate.

15 This next alternative is not that

16 different. Monitored Natural Attenuation is also

17 not doing anything actively to increase that

18 breakdown. But what it does include, it does

19 include a monitoring aspect.

20 The natural processes I talked about

21 were you have the biodegradation, you also have



f lR500Qi43

42

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dilution. It's just like if you were to put a

dye in a bucket of water and you would see it

spread out and dilute. You do have dilution as

one of the things.

You also have sorption, and we'll be

talking about this in a little bit with the

pump-and-treating. The chemicals stick to the

soil. It's called sorption. If you think of

these chemi cals moving through silt and sand and

clay, which is what we have below us here, some

of those chemicals are going to stick to the soil

particles which makes it a little difficult to

pump-and-treat, by the way.

And then transformation, these

chemicals do change all the time also. And we'll

be talking about that some more.

There are also the institutional

controls to prevent the use of ground water, and

we'll talk about some of those institutional

controls.

We would also have a soil management



flR5000i*i»

43

1 plan. And those are safeguards if the soil ever

2 is excavated we would have some safeguards put in

3 place to protect the workers and to d i spose of

4 the contaminated soil.

5 We would also have ground water

6 monitoring plus two additional wells. We feel we

7 need two additional wells to properly monitor the

8 ground water. And the cost is close to 2 m i l l i o n

9 dollars. $1,727,000 to do these a c t i v i t i e s and

10 not even do anything active to the ground water.

11 Just monitor those -- to monitor the s i t u a t i o n .

12 And there are certain instances that

13 EPA has selected a remedy like this. So it was

14 one that was certainly seriously considered.

15 Biodegradation of contami nated ground

16 water, what's that? That's that natural

17 degradation by the existing microbes, and by

18 "microbes," I mean bacteria. There i. s actually

19 bacteria living in the subsurface that breaks

20 these things down.

21 What the data indicates is that we



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have a large area, a large reducing area

throughout most of that VOC plume where the

bacteria that are under the ground are currently,

actively breaking down the chemicals that are in

the ground water. And the process is the TCE ,

trichloroethene, goes to DCE, dichloroethene.

Two chlorines down to -- excuse me, three

chlorines with the trichloroethene, down to two

chlorines in dichloroethene, down to vinyl

chloride which is just one chlorine. So what's

happening is the chlorines are being stripped off

by this process. And then it breaks down to

natural products; ethene, ethane, carbon dioxide

and chloride.

So i-f this process runs all the way

through, you actually wind up with safe,

innocuous products from where you once had, you

know, these nasty chemicals. I mean, they're

care inogens.

MS. KYORISKI: How long does that

process take ?



UR5000U6

45

1 MR. CORBETT: Well, it's actually

2 ongoing right now. We have evidence that it's

3 ongoing. To clean up the entire plume -- let me

4 do this one real quick before I answer that.

5 Dechlorination is the removal of the

6 chlorine atoms. And what they are is they are

7 replaced by a hydrogen atom. So this is the

8 stripping off of the chlorine. It's called

9 dechlorination.

10 I will answer that guestion. I think

11 it's in two slides.

12 MS. KYORISKI: Okay.

13 MR.CORBETT: The institutional

14 controls prevent the use of contaminated ground

15 water. Well, that all sounds great, how do we do

16 that? Fortunately, both the city and the county

17 prohibits -- if you wanted to drill a well on

18 your property right now it would be against the

19 law. So that's something that actually works

20 very favorably for us is that one of these

21 institutional controls are in place already.

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flR5000i*7

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1 Not only are people not drinking the

2 water, but even if they wanted to drill a well,

3 it would illegal. And that's already in place.

4 And that's common in areas where you have

5 municipal water.

6 Also, we want to prevent residential

7 development in that contaminated industrial area.

8 Now, granted, I doubt anyone would want to build

9 a house on the corner of Kane and Lombard Street.

10 It's obviously an industrial area, I'm sure it's

11 zoned industrial, but one of our requirements

12 will be to make sure that no one would to build a

13 home there. Of course when we evaluated the

14 risks, we looked at it as an industrial, area and

15 we assumed it would remain an industrial area.

16 Now, how about industrial wells?

17 Well, it's not illegal to drill a well for

18 industrial purposes, but fortunately, a g a j n, the

19 local agencies; the Maryland Department of the

20 Environment, the County, the City, they evaluate

21 how much on a case-by-case basis. And what they



AR5000i*8

47

1 do is if it's an area where there is contaminated

2 water and the people would use that water in a

3 way that it would harm the workers or would harm

4 people that use their products, they would deny a.

5 permit and not allow a permit to be installed.

6 If you're two and a half a miles away,

7 which is our closest industrial well, is it okay

8 to pump water out there? Yeah, sure. You know,

9 there are corporations two miles away -- I guess

10 two and a half is the closest -- three m i l e s ,

11 four miles away, there are industrial wells in

12 the area and it's fine to use them.

13 Okay, the soil management plan, just

14 to talk about that a little bit more, we have the

15 lead and the antimony in the subsurface. What

16 we're proposing to put in place is health and

17 safety requirements. If we did have to bring in

18 workers to excavate soil, they would have to be

19 specialty trained workers. What they call

20 HAZMAT, HAZMAT technicians. And we would have to

21 dispose of the soil. If the owner of any of



flR5000i*9

48

1 those properties went to dig up that soil, it's

2 contaminated, and dump it in a pile in the back

3 of their property, obviously, we would have a

4 problem with that and I'm sure they would have

5 concerns with that as well.

6 MS. KYORISKI: Are these commercial

7 properties aware that that's there?

8 MR. CORBETT: Yes, they are. I

9 contacted each of them a little bit before we

10 started our public comment period. It's PICORP,

11 Regester Photo and CTI Trucking. And I sent them

12 all a copy of the Proposed Plan and they are

13 aware of that. And obviously, we will be having

14 discussions with them if we are to select this

15 remedy in the future, you know, when we go to

16 implement this during the remedial, design

17 process.

18 I've already spoken to - - some of them

19 already said they have no intention of digging

20 up, you know, that part of the property, but it's

21 something that we need to keep in mind.

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flRSOOOSO

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1 Okay, how long will it take? When you

2 talk about this monitored natural attenuation.

3 It will take longer than 75 years is what we're

4 predicting. This is from the ground water model.

5 The area may continue to even slightly increase,

6 which is one of the concerns. Fortunately, for

7 the parts of this alternative, the soil.

8 management plan, will manage the exposure to

9 contaminated soil. You know, no problem with

10 that aspect of the plan.

11 MR. EVANS: Prior questioned answered?

12 MR. CORBETT: Yes. We take longer

13 than 75 years to clean it up.

14 Pump-and-treat. What we envision for

15 this alternative, we would have six pumping we!.. Is

16 located in the area of highest ground water

17 contamination, which would be near Eastern Avenue

18 as we have pointed out before. We would have two

19 similar but separate treatment buildings, each

20 treating about 200 gallons per minute each. And

21 the reason we would have two separate buildings



flRSOOOS

50

1 is because it's such a large area. And one of

2 the problems is you have to have pipes connecting

3 all of the wells with the treatment plant, and

4 then from the treatment plant to the discharge

5 location. We'll be talking about that later on.

6 It's one of our significant concerns with this.

7 The pump-and-treat alternative also

8 includes the soil management plan that we

9 discussed before. It includes the ground water

10 use restrictions and the ground water moni toring.

11 All of those aspects of the earlier alternative

12 you'll see a similarity there in every single

13 alternative, all three of our active treatment

14 alternatives.

15 Cost, here comes the big jump. Almost

16 $21 million is what we're anticipating to do this

17 activity, to purnp and treat the ground water. A

18 large portion of that comes under the term of

19 what we call operation and maintenance. It would

20 cost -- oh, I forget offhand. I had it in the

21 Proposed Plan. Jeff, was it not a million



AR500052

51

1 dollars per year for operation and maintenance, I

2 think? Just to operate this plant per year we

3 would be looking at about a million dollars.

4 The reason it only costs 20 milli on --

5 you know, if you add up over maybe 50 years,

6 which we anticipate this could take, you say

7 that's a lot more than 20 million, what we do is

8 we look at it present-day dollars. You know, if

9 you were to put aside all of the money for

10 operation and maintenance and put it in an escrow

11 account, you would have to have a check for about

12 21 million dollars and you would use tha. t to

13 build the plant and then use that money and gain

14 interest on that money over the years for the

15 operation and maintenance.

16 {End of Side 1, Tape 1.)

17 MR. CORBETT: What would it include?

18 Well, it would include pretreatment to reduce the

19 metals. We talked about how we have iron and

20 manganese and we noted that is a problem. We'd

21 have to pull those metals out of the ground water

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1 through some kind of filtering process. We'd use

2 an air stripper to remove the VOCs . We talked

3 about how these volatile organic chemicals like

4 to evaporate. Well, the way you treat it with

5 ground water is you have the water trickle down,

6 either in trays and it trickles back and forth in

7 trays or it goes through a tower over a bunch of

8 small, little, like, type beads and air is blown

9 up over it and the chemicals evaporate off into

10 an airstream where they are then treated. You'd

11 have air emission treatments so that the

12 chemicals weren't just transferred into the

13 atmosphere, and you'd use a granular-activated

1 4 carbon.

15 MS. KYORISKI: Are you using this

16 process anywhere now?

17 MR. CORBETT: Yes. Actually, one of

18 the sites 1 worked on about five years ago we

19 built an air stripping tower. When we have

20 volatile organic chemicals, this is pretty much

21 one of the standard ways to treat them.

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1 MS. KYORISKI: And where is that?

2 MR. CORBETT: That's in Berks County,

3 Pennsylvania. That's the Berks Sand Pit; site.

4 But these type of air stripping towers,

5 there's -- I'd hate to guess how many in the

6 country, I wouldn't be surprised if there were

7 four or five hundred of them in the country. T

8 know we have quite a few Superfund sites and we

9 use them a lot. Actually, there are probably

1 0 thousands.

11 MR. SCAMBAT: --gas station.

12 MR. CORBETT: Yeah, underground

13 storage tanks, you mean? It's a kind of standard

14 technology, I guess. But for Superfund sites,

15 I'd say several hundred of them.

16 We would discharge the clean water

17 through the storm sewer system and into Back

18 River, which is the closest river where we could

19 discharge that. And there would be routine

20 monitoring and there would also be routine

21 maintenance of the treatment system and of the

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1 piping and of the controls.

2 MS. KYORISKI: This kind of would be

3 at Kane and Eastern Avenue?

4 MR. CORBETT: Well, it would probably

5 be located closer -- yeah, toward Eastern Avenue,

6 closer towards the Midas shop. If you think of

7 that Midas shop as, like, the center of the

8 highest part of the plume --

9 MS. GETZ: T h a t ' s b e y o n d 9 5 ?

10 MR. CORBETT: Right. It's on the

11 other side of 95. In between 95 and North ---

12 MS. KYORISKI: Right there at the old

13 Anchor Post where 95 comes in that is --••-

14 MS. GETZ: Very bad drainage problem

15 there .

16 MR. CORBETT: They were actually

17 pumping water up on the corner of Eastern Avenue

18 and the street right here. I stopped and talked

19 to the gentleman. They were with Verizon, I

20 think. I wanted to make sure it wasn't ground

21 water. I said, gee, when you guys are working on



flR500056

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1 utilities, you're not pumping ground water out,

2 are you, because the ground water is very

3 contaminated? And as I suspected, it was surface

4 water and you saw the water runni. ng down the

5 street, what that is is from the water lines and

6 the drains in the area.

7 So fortunately, it's clean water and

8 this contaminated ground water is far down below.

9 But yeah, there's a drainage problem tonight up

10 over there --

11 Okay, pumping would contain a large

12 part of the plume, although additional wells

13 might be needed. The area further south of

14 Eastern Avenue, if the plume was to continue to

15 migrate, we might even need additional wells in

16 that area as well.

17 It would take between 30 and 75 years.

18 Even spending $21 million and putting in pumping

19 wells and building two treatment systems, it

20 could take -- well, it was going to take a lot

21 more than 30 and it was less than 75 and we're


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56

s1 using ground water modeling, we didn't run model

2 for, like, every five years just because it's an

3 expensive type of thing. But talking to the

4 hydrogeolog i s t s , we kind of had a gut feeling

5 we're looking at about 40 to 50 years. Do you

6 think that is fair to say, Jeff?

7 MR. SCAMBAT: Yes. Long time.

8 MR. CORBETT: Yeah. Still a

9 significant amount of time. And that's actively

10 pumping and doing a lot of other activities.

11 The effectiveness could be

12 compromised -- remember, I talked about that

13 sorption, one of the problems of pumping and

14 treating, especially in a subsurface .like this

15 where you have sand and clay and silt, is that

16 you have that absorption of the chemicals onto

17 the soil. And so that's one of the problems.

18 And the way to overcome that sometimes is

19 actually you turn the system off and you let

20 'things equilibrate and loosen up a little bit and

21 then you pump it again and then you turn it off

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1 and then you try pumping it again. It's hard to

2 get those chemicals out of the ground is the

3 hot torn line.

4 And then we use monitoring. You know,

5 we would be continuing to collect ground water'

6 samples to determine how effective it is.

7 Okay, our proposed alternative -- can

8 you see underneath the -- oh, good. Enhanced

9 Reductive Dechlorination, and later on I ' l l

10 abbreviate it and call it ERD so we don't keep

11 saying it over and over again. And the

12 institutional controls like we had talked about

13 before. This uses the naturally occurring

14 processes and the existing microbes, we're

15 anticipating we would be at about eight wells to

16 inject and recirculate the organic carbon which

17 is the nutrient source for the microbes.

18 And as you had mentioned, what we're

19 proposing to use actually is molasses. And we

20 had changed one of the remedies. I had a site

21 where we were planning on doing pump-and-treat,

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AR500059

1 and they did pilot study for about five years

2 looking at injecting the molasses. And the type

3 of molasses that they inject is actually what is

4 called boot-strap molasses. It's molasses.

5 Nothing fancy about it at all. They dilute it

6 with water so they can get it into the ground a

7 little easier.

8 MS. KYORISKI: How do they happen upon

9 molasses ?

10 MR. CORBETT: You know, it's a funny

11 story. If I could have a seat for a second.

12 MS. KYORISKI: Sure, please do.

13 MR. CORBETT: Getting a little tired

14 anyway. About five years ago, one of the

15 gentleman in Region 3 in Philadelphia was working

16 on a site and they had chromium contamination.

17 And they wanted to change the chromium from what

18 they called trivalent to hexavalent, meaning --

19 MR. SCAMBAT: It was - -

20 MR. CORBETT: Hexavalent to trivalent

21 which basically changes the number of electrons

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1 in that outer ring. You know, if you think

2 about -- remember chemistry from way back when,

3 how you have electrons spinning around, you

4 change the number of electrons in the outer ring,

5 and all of the sudden the chromium goes from very

6 hazardous to very non -- well, to much less

7 hazardous, 1 should say.

8 In the process of doing that, they

9 also have these VOCs at the site. They weren't

10 expecting it to affect the VOCs but it wound up

11 cleaning up the VOCs.

12 AUDIENCE PARTICIPANT: It was by

1 3 ace ident.

14 MR. CORBETT: Yes. And I'll be honest

15 with you, when I first heard, about five years

16 ago, that someone was proposing to inject,

17 molasses into the ground, I laughed. And I said

18 here they are some other, you know, some kind of

19 snake oil, you know, voodoo chemistry here, and

20 the darn thing worked.

21 And, you know, more and more, if you



RR50006I

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1 go to these conferences on ground water clean

2 ups, injecting things into the ground to clean up

3 ground water seems to be the new wave of how

4 we're attacking these ground water problems.

5 AUDIENCE PARTICIPANT: Did they use

6 that process down in Fells Point where they had

7 that chromium plant and they --

8 MR. KALBACHER: Allied -- they did the

9 cap, they did that underground clay wall and

10 they're pumping the water --

11 MS. KYORISKI: They were supposed to

12 put a park down there -- change the --

13 MR. KALBACHER: It's under a legal

14 order so there are some restrictions.

15 MR. CORBETT: This approach of

16 injecting things into the ground water is

17 actually catching on in a lot of areas. I have a

18 site that is a battery dump where they dump the

19 acid from the batteries on the ground. And what

20 we're doing there to clean up the ground water is

21 we're adding baking soda into wells. You know,



flR500062

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1 we have acid, we're adding baking soda, it's

2 neutralizing it and we antic 1 pate that the lead

3 that's in the ground water there will come out of

4 solution when it becomes neutral and it will be

5 locked up into the subsurface where it will stay

6 forever unless someone pours acid on the ground

7 again and all of the stuff will come out. But we

8 don't -- we hope no one is going to pour acid on

9 the ground anymore.

10 But this whole idea of inject i ng

11 things into the ground seems to be getting quite

12 popular. And actually we are very fortunate the

13 firm that was selected by the companies to work

14 on this, Arcades, we have a couple of the

15 engineers from that firm; Jeff Scambat and Brian

16 Stempowski here, their firm does guite a bit of

17 work. They are on the cutting edge of this whole

18 injection process.

19 MS. KYORISKI: It's i. interesting that

20 you go to natural substances to do that.

21 MR. SCAMBAT: Yeah, we're finally

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coming back to the all-natural -- it's a cheap,

safe source of carbon and that's why we use it.

MR. CORBETT: We could use lactose.

You know. We could use a lot of things.

MR. EVANS: I hate to be the bearer of

news, however, the meeting was scheduled to go

until about 9:00 and it's about 8:35, so if I

could take the reins here for a second, I think

it would probably be good if Chris could move

through -- there are guite a few slides left - -

MR. CORBETT: See, that's the problem,

you get me in front of an audience and a

microphone and --

MR. EVANS: A lot of good questions.

MR. CORBETT: So these microbes, by

feeding them, these microbes we've been talking

about will flourish. They will increase in

number, they'll increase in activity and they

will accelerate this natural degradation process.

Okay, we also have our soil management

plan as part of this alternative. We have our

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1 ground water monitoring and data collection to

2 evaluate the effectiveness. The iron and

3 manganese, as we eliminate the VOCs, should

4 decrease to background and that would occur in a

5 natural way as well.

6 Cost for this, a little over 6 million

7 dollars. So pumping and treating, we're looking

8 at about 21 million, doing very little, we're

9 looking at 1.7, and here we are at 6.2. Not too

10 bad. Happy medium, I think.

11 We're looking at eight injection and

12 recirculation wells. We would include a feed

13 system, a mixing tank and a control system. They

14 would all be below ground and they would take up

15 an area of about 100 square feet, maybe 200

16 square feet, if that. Not even that much. A

17 relatively small area. And would all be in

18 subsurface.

19 An organic nutrient source would be

20 diluted molasses or a similar type of substance.

21 We would define that in --



flR500065

64

1 MR. STEMPOWSKI: Chris, it might be

2 worth noting that no ground water would be

3 brought to the surface in this technology. We

4 would place these harmless products, this

5 molasses, into the ground so we would never be

6 bringing any of the ground water up to the

7 surface.

8 MR. CORBETT: T h a t ' s a v e r y g o o d

9 point. With the pump-and-treat alternative,

10 obviously you would have to pump all of that

11 contamination up and treat it at the surface, and

12 there is a potential for problems.

13 Okay, we would be actively injecting,

14 we're anticipating, for about 15 years. We think

15 it would take an additional 60 years for the

16 processes to complete. So it's a little bit

17 longer than the pump and treating which we

18 thought would be about 50 years, maybe up to 75

19 years. Time may be reduced, though. This is

20 still a relatively new technology and by

21 delivering the organic carbon or nutrient source



flR500066

65

1 more efficiently in the future, we can figure out

2 ways in the next five or ten years to get it into

3 the ground better. We might even be able to

4 reduce that time.

5 In addition, we would help to minimize

6 the spread of contamination in ground water like

7 having this active treatment process going on.

8 Okay, how do we evaluate the

9 alternatives? The way we do that i. s to have a

10 number of different criteria. The first is

11 threshold criteria. These must be satisfied for

12 us to select an alternative. The first one is

13 overall protection of human health and the

14 environment. The other one is, we have to abi.de

15 by all of the laws and regulations associated

16 with the clean up.

17 The other group we have are primary

18 balancing criteria. These are used to weigh the

19 major trade-offs. You know, what are the pluses

20 and what are the minuses? What are the

21 advantages and what are the disadvantages? And



RR500067

66

1 we look at those in the categories of long-term

2 effectiveness and permanence, reduction of

3 toxicity, reduction of mobility or reduction of

4 volume through treatment and then also short-term

5 effectiveness. Implementability, how can we

6 construct this thing? How easy will this be to

7 build? And also cost.

d In addition, there is a t h i r d g r o u p o i

9 criteria called the modifying criteria. These

10 are taken into account after the end of the

11 public comment period. And this includes state

12 agency acceptance. Obviously, throughout this

13 whole process we're coordinating with the

14 Maryland Department of the Environment, Also,

15 community acceptance, whether the community

16 agrees with EPA's preferred alternative. It's

17 basically the reason we have public meetings.

18 That's why we're down here tonight and sent down

19 fact sheets to the community and also allowing

20 ourselves available for questions or maybe even

21 follow-up visits during --

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1 The no action alternative does not

2 provide adequate protection of human health and

3 the environment. We cannot select that because

4 it doesn't meet that threshold criteri. a.

5 Monitored natural, attenuation, we're

6 not sure if that would be protective of human

7 health or the environment. The bottom 1i n e is

8 after collecting the data that we have so far-, we

9 feel we don't have enough data - this is EPA's

10 opinion, we don't have enough data to say that

11 this would be protective. If we had additional

12 data and we could sit back and collect data for

13 another three years or five years or ten years,

14 maybe we could make that determination. But at

15 this time, we just don't feel we have enough

16 information to determine that. And part of that

17 is because some of the wells that were put in

18 further down gradient, the ones on the other side

19 of Eastern Avenue, they've only been in -- we've

20 only sampled them once or twice so it's hard for

21 us to say how's this thing working on the leading

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edge of that contaminated area of ground water.

So neither alternative of those first

two meet that threshold criteria so we won't be

discussing those in great detail. We'll be

looking at the next two, the pump -and- treat

alternative and the ERD, the Enhanced Reductive

Dechlori nation. Both of those alternatives meet

the threshold criteria. We can implement those

in conjunction with all of the laws and

regulations that exist. They also are protective

of human health and the environment.

ERD, which I'm now going to start

calling our molasses remedy, would result in the

quickest initial reduction of contamination. As

soon as you put the molasses in the ground right

in that area, you start to see some reaction, you

start to see some degradation. Pump-and- t rea t

reach the clean up levels faster, 50 years as

opposed to 60 or 70. But again, I have high

hopes on this molasses, I think we'll actually be

able to beat 50 years. I see so many new

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AR500Q70

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1 developments in that whole area of treating

2 ground water in place.

3 They are both effective long term

4 solutions, they both reduce and eliminate,

5 eventually, eliminate the contamination.

6 Other similarities, they both include

7 that soil management plan and the institutional

8 controls. So there are a lot of similarities.

9 Comparison, what's the differences?

10 Well, implementability. One of the bigger

11 concerns I have about pumpi. ng and treating is

12 that to install the wells and.to build the

13 treatment plant and to connect them all with a

14 subsurface piping, we'd be digging up Eastern

15 Avenue probably, we'd be digging up a lot of the

16 side streets in the community behind that, we'd

17 be affecting the businesses in the area and some

18 of that could also even flow over during

19 operation of maintenance. What if a line era. eked

20 and we'd have to get in and replace one of these

21 underground pipes.



AR50007I

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1 Another good point brought up by Brian

2 earlier is that the pumping and treating would

3 bring the contamination to the surface. You

4 know, another advantage of the molasses treatment

5 is that it all stays under the ground where It's

6 safe from humans and the environment as well.

7 You might have to disrupt traffic,

8 temporarily close streets. I look around the

9 community and think about pumpi. ng and treating.

10 Our first site visit I made with these gentlemen

11 I was, like, wow, how are we going to do this in

12 a conventional way? It's a real concern.

13 It could disrupt the businesses and

14 certainly also the residents. I mean, it's a

15 vibrant, very active community as you're well

16 aware.

17 Looking at the cost, obvious

18 difference there. You know, 6.2 million for the

19 molasses versus almost 21 million for

20 pump-and-treat. A big difference there as well.

21 MS. KYORISKI: These are federal --



AR500072

71

1 MR. CORBETT: No, these are

2 actually -- well, we don't know at this time.

3 The government's goal would be to coordinate with

4 the corporations and to negotiate with them and

5 to have what is called a Consent Decree. It's

6 hard to predict in the future. If it was the

7 government's money, we do feel we'd have a strong

8 case to go back and sue certain companies, so.

9 MS. KYORISKI: Lucent was Western

10 Electric and I know they dumped over here. My

11 husband worked there and --

12 MR. CORBETT: Lucent is one of the

13 comoanies that is actually oavina for the

14 operation and maintenance of the clay cap over

15 there. So obviously, they knew other people

16 would be, you know, planning on to negotiate

17 with --

18 MS. KYORISKI: If there is anything

19 left for Lucent to sue.

20 MR. CORBETT: Natural degradation

21 processes enhanced by the injection and the



AR500073

72

1 recirculation of nutrients, we've talked about

2 that quite a bit. The other big part of it is to

3 continue to prevent the use of ground water and

4 that's obviously a very important part of this.

5 And the safeguards for the soil if they ever want

6 to be excavated. Very important part. Because

7 of these things -- we try to put together

8 remedies that would not disrupt the community.

9 That was one of the things that we were thinking

10 of the whole time.

11 The soil gas samples, we didn't talk

12 about that at all. When we did our collection of

13 data, we did find some chemicals coming up in the

14 soil gas. One of the initial things that was in

15 the plan when we were doing our draft documents

16 was to put in a system that would pull the

17 chemicals out of the ground in the gas form and

18 try to treat them that way.

19 The problem is, we'd be right on the

20 corner of Kane and Lombard Street. We'd be

21 shutting down a couple of the businesses. One of

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the gentlemen from PICORP is here. I'm sure

PICORP would certainly have some issues if we

were to shut down the front end of their property

where they have to bring in -- you know, 1500

containers are stored on there.

MS. KYORISKI: That's as busy as

Eastern Avenue. That would never be --

MR. CORBETT: Yeah, I mean, Eastern

Avenue, Kane and Lombard Street, it would be a

mess. What we looked at was, if we want to pull

the chemicals out of the ground in the air, how

much would it show up in that ground water

cleanup? And to be honest with you, if it would

have shortened the ground water clean up to ten

years or 20 years, I'd say, hey, it's worth the

money, it's worth the inconvenience, let's work

with the businesses to minimize the disruption.

This is a good thing for us.

It turned out it wasn't going to be --

we're still going to be 60 or 70 years. I mean,

it might slow i c down a little bit, but it wasn't

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going to save us a whole lot and it would cost

probably another million to 2 million dollars.

MS. KYORISKI: Well, I think that's

probably the safer alternative, you know, being a

layperson on this. With the molasses, it sounds

like it's sa fer.

MR. CORBETT: Yes. And we have

evidence

MS. KYORISKI: For us and for you.

MR. CORBETT: Yeah. I mean, it's

safer, it's more cost-effective for, you know,

the responsible parties or the government,

whoever pays for it. I mean, I try to look at

things and not think that i f the government's

paying for it we do it this way, or if. a

corporation was doing it, this way. You have to

do it right and if you can save money for a

corporation, that's good. If you can save money

for the government, that's good.

We try to just do it right regardless

of if it's a company lead or a government lead.



UR500Q76

75

1 You know, and in all honesty, if this was a

2 government lead and the government's paying for

3 it, I'd still be standing here proposing this

4 molasses injection. I actually think it's - - has

5 a real high potential to work. And it moves us

6 in the right di rection. With all of these new

7 technologies coming out about treating ground

8 water in place, this is putting us in the right

9 direction. If in two years, three years from now

10 there is a better way to inject the stuff into

11 the ground, you know, at least we're starting in

12 that mode. And we're not going to have a

13 pump-and-treat building that's now outdated and

14 antiguated and doesn't need to be used any more.

15 It's getting us in the right direction. Who

16 knows ten years from now.

17 And one of the things we will do is,

18 as we have been doing, we do a five-year' review.

19 Every five years we come out and step back and we

20 look at the whole situation; the work that was

21 done over at the golf range, the work that will



flR500077

76

1 be done in the future here with the injection for

2 the ground water, we'll look at how the soil

3 management plan is working and how it's working

4 with the different businesses in place, and then

5 that's our opportunity to look at it and change

6 it, you know. If we need to change it, we

7 obviously will.

8 MR. EVANS: If I can interject. I'm

9 always the -- (Inaudible). First of a l l , I would

10 like to apologize because I tried to get the room

11 for much later, however what limited our time --

12 because I know that a good meeting and people

13 have good questions we'll usually go to 9:30 or

14 maybe quarter to 10. But it had to do with the

15 availability of the janitor i a 1 services for the

16 school and I promised that we would close up by

17 9:00.

18 Maybe our timekeeper -- how many --

19 MR. CORBETT: Ten.

20 MS. DOUGHERTY: Ten to 12 minutes.

21 MR. EVANS: W e h a v e 1 2 m i n u t e s . If

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1 you have general questions, I would suggest that

2 you could -- you know, specific questions, you

3 could ask them now. And if we run out of time, I

4 would like for you to take down our 800 number,

5 our Superfund community i nvolvement 800 number.

6 You call me and I can --

7 MS. KYORISKI: Let me get back to your

8 name.

9 MR. EVANS: Okay. My name is Vance .

10 The number is 800-553-2509. And you can either

11 ask for me or say it's Kane and Lombard and they

12 will -- if 1 don't pick the phone up, they'll

13 transfer it to my line. If I'm not there, you'll

14 have voicemail that runs for at least three

15 minutes. If you want to call at 3:00 i. n the

16 morning -- my extension is 554-5526. So if you

17 called at 2:00 in the morning and had a

18 brainstorm and wanted to leave Chris a message,

19 you could call. When you hear the prompt, just

20 put in 45526. After that, you can talk for about

21 three or four minutes. If it cuts you off, you

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1 can call right back and continue and then T can

2 either -- I'll type your notes up and send them

3 to Chris or if someone else checks the messages

4 and it doesn't go directly to me, they'll send it

5 to me or Chris immediately.

6 And then this way, you can still

7 provide your comments. If you'd like to talk to

8 me directly -- because sometimes talking back and

9 forth will allow you to think of more

10 questions -- I can call you during the day or in

11 the evening. I can jot down your questions and

12 then get them to Chris. They will become a part

13 of the record and then he can answer them. So

14 having said that, I'll step back.

15 MS. KYORISKI: He's answered quite --

16 I think every question -- I had one here that I

17 haven't had an opportunity to read this, but if I

18 have any other questions, I certainly will call

19 you. And could you possibly give us two more?

20 We'll give one to the community associ. ation

21 president and we also belong to the senior group

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at church, so that we can pass this

information - - put that out and --

MR. CORBETT: Extra copies

MR. EVANS: Megan will be happy to

5 give those to you.

6 MS. KYORISKI: And please consider, if

7 you do another meeting, using the school, to

8 distri bute it. If it's in the summertime, you

9 can contact one of us and we'll be happy to, you

10 know, get the kids together to distribute the --

11 MR. CORBETT: The school children

12 could distribute the --

13 MR. EVANS: I was actually talking to

14 a couple of the instructors and if I can take a

15 moment - - I'm glad I moved right ahead. Just to

16 give you a little more insight about the

17 community involvement activities, we are starting

18 the second phase, we're getting -- the contractor

19 in place is going to be helping us with a lot of

21 going to, of course, deal with upgrading our

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phone list. We're going to be coming back into

the community, we have your numbers, we'll be

looking for any leads or other active community

groups. There may be citizen's groups that might

be outside this area.

MS. KYORISKI: Need to get that one

over there. That's a different community group.

MR. EVANS: Right. We're going to be

identifying all the groups. And we're coming

v-. - — i - t n n V,

interviewing possibly yourself and other people

randomly or people that you might think would

want to be involved --

MS. KYORISKI: Do you know when?

MR. EVANS: I will, be letting you

know. Once we get the mailing list in place, our

next fact sheet will probably either give the

latest updates and/or talk about the time frame

for our community involvement activities. I ' ll

be calling you directly, probably just to get

some input. And by doing this, we'll be able to

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1 expand -- because some people might have even

2 moved out of the area. There are churches in the

3 area that have people that may not even live in

4 the area. It will be much more extensive in the

5 near future.

6 MS. GETZ: You know, you were talking

7 about disruptment (sic) in the neighborhood, the

8 community of -- not to cut you off but --

9 MR. EVANS: No, no, please.

10 MS. GETZ: We are in the process right

11 now of planning the Eastern Avenue -

12 refurbishing from -- (Inaudible) Street on out, T

13 think, to the county line. So, I mean, that's

14 going to be -- reestablishing and planting,

15 setting up --

16 MR. CORBETT: Oh, ve r y n i . ce.

17 MS. GETZ: The city and the state and

18 whatever. And I was thinking along the lines of

19 our own disruptment here that you would say

20 possibly r. n u "M take place such as on the streets

21 and whatever, you know, in the community.

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1 And then I started thinking about

2 monetary part and they even said it would be the

3 companies that would be probably -- and there are

4 probably grants from the government and so on

5 like that. Would the community people be

6 involved with the funds? Would they have to be

7 comi ng forth ?

8 MR. CORBETT: No cost . No, there

9 would not be any cost to the city.

10 MS. GETZ: That's agood thing to

11 know.

12 MR. CORBETT: I should have mentioned

13 that.

14 MS. KYORISKI: Because a lot of people

15 in this group, in this community, would be

16 anxious to know about it.

17 MR. CORBETT: Oh, sure.

18 MS. KYORISKI: As soon as they hear

19 all this is going to take place they are going to

20 think, oh, God, what is it going to cost us.

21 MR. CORBETT: Right. Are our taxes

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1 going to go up or are we going to be assessed a

2 penalty or whatever?

3 MS. GETZ: I wanted to get that clear.

4 MS. KYORISKI: I do have one guestion.

5 MR. CORBETT: Yes.

6 MS. GETZ: I guess it's the 6400 block

7 of Bank Street, which is right off of Eastern,

8 between Pratt and Eastern, there is always water

9 on that street. It seeps all the time at the

10 intersection, winter, summer -- there is always

11 water coming up, you know, on the street, is that

12 ground water --

13 MS. KYORISKI: (Inaudible) same way.

14 MS. GETZ: Not all the time, but there

15 is a lot of seepage there. At the intersections

16 of Bank and Joplin (phonetic) and also at Enla

17 (phonetic) and Bank. It's like, again, what I

18 was trying to tell you from the beginning, we're

19 sitting on these --

20 AUDIENCE PARTICIPANT: No one is --

21 MS. GETZ: Our houses have always had

2 0 2 ) 6 2'' r.7 ̂ ' 1

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1 problems with leakages in the cellar. And a lot

2 of our people have had to have their cellars

3 waterproofed because that was one of the biggest

4 problems that we had really. We were sitting on

5 fill land with springs. Is there any way you

6 could take a look at that? Because that water is

7 coming to surface.

8 MR. CORBETT: Yeah. I ' m v e r y

9 interested in that actually.

10 MS. GETZ: We've called the city and

11 nobody --

12 MR. CORBETT: Where's the location

13 again?

14 MS. KYORISKI: You go straight down

15 here to Kane and you go right on Bank, from

16 Bank --

17 MS. GETZ: These houses, this is

18 called -- alphabetically.

19 MR. CORBETT: Okay.

20 MS. GETZ: The next street is Bank off

21 of Kane Street. And if you take that right turn

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1 there you will see the -- not the -- but it still

2 has seepage of water --

3 MS. KYORISKI: Now today, it's

4 probably because of some of the runoff from --

5 MS. GETZ: Some snow. But take a dry

6 day and just go --

7 MR. CORBETT: Yeah. Let me j u s t - -

8 MS. GETZ: Because when I walk, I'd be

9 walking and they are always saying it freezes --

10 going over those spots because there's been water

11 coming up --

12 MR. CORBETT: Where would you get the

13 contaminated ground water -- spot it on there.

14 MS. GETZ: Where are we now?

15 MR. CORBETT: Here's Eastern Avenue

16 and here's 95, here's Kane Street. Okay, here's

17 Banks Street.

18 MS. GETZ: Okay. Right i n h e r e .

19 MR. CORBETT: Oh, good.

20 MS. GETZ: Now, there is a Bank Street

21 out on the hill, too, so --

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1 MR. CORBETT: It's the first right

2 over here?

3 MS.GETZ: Right. So as you're go i. ng

4 this way down Kane Street -- on Kane Street, as

5 you get -- this first street here that you're

6 going to get finished -- that will be Pratt

7 Street. And then the next street is Bank Street.

8 So you make your right turn as you're going that

9 way toward Eastern Avenue and you go the first

10 block and you'll see that's Joplin (phonetic).

11 They go by alphabet. M, I --

12 MR. EVANS: We have some other people

13 who have questions. Other guestions.

14 MR. WIZNER: Yes, my name is Rick

15 Wizner, I'm a representative from PICORP. I have

16 a general question. Would the area known as

17 operational Unit II be considered for Brownfield

18 (phonetic) legislation?

19 MR. CORBETT: I'm not sure. I'll have

20 to get back to you on that. Pete, can you help

21 me out with that?

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1 MR. LUDZIA: I guess rny understanding

2 is that because it's a natural Superfund site, it

3 really couldn't back down and somehow be covered

4 by the federal legislation -- (Inaudible) any

5 aspect of the Maryland Brownfields law that would

6 allow operable unit II to be dealt with under

7 that program.

8 MR. KALBACHER: We have an exclusion

9 to -- I'm a little bit concerned that the large

10 geographic area would be excluded mainly by the

11 fact that the ground water contamination - o n

12 the other hand, nothing precludes development

13 from proceeding in that area, especially because

14 of the fact that ground water -- (Inaudible). So

15 there shouldn't be any reason for an entity to

16 continue to acquire and develop land.

17 The problem has been in the past --

18 they don't want to be involved with --

19 (Inaudible). So that's a concern. I'm asking

20 that question in general. I don't expect a firm

21 answer but I wanted to ask it on the record so



AR500089

that at least you realized our concern on that

i ssue.

MR. WIZNER: Let us take a look at 1 t.

4 My understanding is to some degree, I mean,

5 that's a financial institution. The government

6 certainly is not -- (Inaudible) in any way to ---

7 (Inaudible) activities.

MR. CORBETT: Okay. Do we have any

other guest ions?

10 MR. WIZNER: I understand that the

1 1 underground storage tanks are going to be

12 addressed specifically in this plan that are

13 af feeted by --

14 MR. CORBETT: No, it's actually

15 excluded. If you read through the Proposed Plan,

16 the underground storage tanks are not being dealt

17 with as part of the clean up of the Superfund

18 site. So that the State and PICORP can work on

19 that action separately. I know you ---• there were

20 concerns about doing any kind of underground

21 storage type clean up, how it might create

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1 viability to the Superfund site. And basically,

2 we did our best to just carve it out.

3 MR. WIZNER: What does that mean,

4 carve out ?

5 MR. CORBETT: Well, meaning that it's

6 not part of the Superfund site. Let's say we

7 were to make this underground storage tank clean

8 up a part of the Superfund clean up, all. of the

9 sudden, PICORP would be contacted by probably all

10 of the attorneys involved with this --

11 MR. KA I, BACKER: There ' s a c o n t r o l l i n a

12 exclusion applied to Superfund. We try to carve

13 things out. That's a separate regulatory program

14 that is handled, for the most part, at the state

15 level.

16 MR. CORBETT: So that the state can

17 work directly with PICORP. Just as you would at

18 any other location. If there was an underground

19 storage tank at the gas station on Eastern

20 Avenue, the state would just work with --

21 MR. WIZNER: The gas stations that are

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on Eastern Avenue or some other location are not

part of MDL site. And the dirt that is

surrounding those USDs are part of the MDL dirty

dirt. And PICORP is concerned that if they start

handling the dirty dirt, that they will be drawn

in as PRPs because we are now moving that dirty

dirt or handling that dirty dirt someplace else.

That's always been our concern. Not USTs, but

the dirt that's around the USTs that PICORP does

not pollute. And we were trying to get EPA and

MDE to join forces that tell us what to do. And

now you've said that EPA is carving out --

MR. CORBETT: So the state can work

directly with you to take care of the --

MR. WIZNER: -- us that us handling

the dirty dirt will preclude us from becoming

potential, reliable, responsible parties.

MR. KALBACHER: We don't assign

liability. That's a federal program that

liability is assigned at the federal level. Give

/M I mp vnnr n H m p and number and wo' I I t~ a I k tn vou



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1 about i t.

2 MR. CORBETT: Rick, I'm not sure if

3 anyone would ever say that you're not a

4 responsible party/ especially since you have

5 contamination on your property -- one of the ways

6 you can become a responsible party is have

7 contamination on your property regardless of how

8 it gets there if you're a current owner.

9 MR. KALBACHER: As I've told you

10 before the meeting, we will be sending a written

1 1 response .

12 Thank you for the presentation.

13 MR. CORBETT: Sure. I think this is

14 actually an easier way for you to deal with your

15 underground storage tank problem than for us to

16 make it part of the Superfund site, part of the

17 Superfund clean up, otherwise you're directly

18 involved with ground water remedy also.

19 MR. WTZNER: Tf the site is being

20 treated anyway, wouldn't it be -- no matter what

21 the contamination is, which we don't think there

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s any, wouian t it SLIII oe Lieaceu IUL LIIO next

2 50 years?

3 MR. KALBACHER: Treating the ground

4 water, not the soil. I don't know off the top of

5 my head but -- no way you could evacuate and pump

6 out those tanks -- we have pumped them out and we

7 have not used them since whenever.

Your guys at the state inspection

9 level will come and say we don't care what --

10 MR. CORBETT: Hopefully this will pave

11 the way so you can get that issue resolved. That

12 was our goal anyway.

13 W e l l , thank you everyone for coming

14 This concludes our meeting.

15 (End of Side 2, Tape 1.)

16 (Hearing concluded at 9:02 p.m.)

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CERTIFICATION OF TRANSCRIBER

2 I, LAURIE OLENICK, do hereby certify

3 that the foregoing was transcribed by me to the

4 best of my ability.

5

6Laur ie Oleni ck

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meeting proposed plan kane and lombard superfund … · 4 i'd like to formally introduce...

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