Introduction

Today's day is the 29th of December. It is about 1:37 o'clock Central Time.

Warren Sullivan: Here interviewing Allen Brown. Also, here with Madhu Rao who is the other interviewer. Today we are tackling the topic related to the experience of co-workers in a co-working space.

Warren Sullivan: We're going to go through, basically high-level categories. the categories are personal growth, professional development, business practices, co-working culture. Again, these are just high-level sections we created. To make sure we hit the topics that we want to. If you feel like you need to go back to any of those sections feel free to Jump Around.

The first one we're going to talk about his business practices. Then we are going to talk about the type of work that you currently do. Also what do you consider yourself? Corporate employee, freelancer, or a entrepreneur ?

Allen Brown: Yeah, I am a freelance IOS app developer. So, I develop apps for iPhone, iPad, Iwatch, and probably Apple TV at some point. I am definitely not a corporate employee. I am a sole member LLC currently.

Warren Sullivan: How long have you been an app developer?

Allen Brown: I have been doing this since September of 2012. So, in total about three years.

Warren Sullivan: What kind of work was you doing before developing apps?

Brown: I was actually a core employee. I was a senior director of Technology for Epsilon. Basically, I would ever see series of Alliance data. So, I would build customized marketing database solutions for large companies. Like Kraft Foods, Capital One, and other small businesses.

Warren Sullivan: How have you seen the industry that you work in change over the last three years?

Allen Brown: Well, certainly there is more platforms to support. It's continuing to grow , in popularity as well as in more in demand. it's been a great ride thus far!

Warren Sullivan: How do you see a change in the next three years?

Allen Brown: Well, I don't like predicting future and Technology, but I certainly am hopeful that it continues on an upward trajectory for years to come. For me the app was a very successful company since I bring in most of the profits in the industry they compete in even if we weren't winning and every metric. For someone building my business in this area, profits are important. It has been very profitable and I would expected to keep being profitable over the next three years. All those technology changes quickly you just never know.

Warren Sullivan: You said that your prediction for three years that you hope it continues on an upward trajectory. So what does upward mean to you?

Allen Brown: I look at what has been happening as a fun diversification technology. So, we started with iPhones. Then we had iPads, Apple watches, iPad Pros, and Apple TVs. All of that is lots of fun to work with! I love working with all kinds of Technologies.

Warren Sullivan: You said that you are reluctant to predict the future. Why is this?

Allen Brown: Because mostly Mass majority of predictions are terrible and make interesting sound bites of the future. You know when like Bill Gates's you never need more than a 128K of RAM. companies rise and fall and Civilizations do as well.

Warren Sullivan: So, if we are to go along with that theme you know, where companies rise and fall and civilizations as well. Which one remains?

Allen Brown: It is my belief in opinion is that God remains.

Warren Sullivan: So, bring it back to business practice. We have some questions about freelancing. How do you establish your fee schedule when someone comes to you wanting your services?

Allen Brown: It is motivated by Supply and Demand. There is a high demand for my time currently. So, my rights have been increasing over the years. I work with someone on a new opportunity by doing a fixed bid estimate On the outline. also by applying an hourly rate to that. But, it varies on engagement as well.

Warren Sullivan: How much work can you take on before you turn new business away?

Allen Brown: well, it typically varies. Right now I am wrapping up an engagement, so for example I wouldn't be able to take on a full an opportunity right now because of the amount of work I have. I have been fortunate that many of these opportunities can wait. So, that gives me the opportunity to see how much that client really wants the work done. I can see whether they come back, and how persistent they are to try and get something going. But, I tend to have five to ten opportunities that are always available. although, I typically don't because I'm so busy.

Warren Sullivan: So between the five to ten opportunities how many of those could you take it one time?

Allen Brown: I will take anywhere from 2 to 5 opportunities at one time.

Warren Sullivan: What would you do with a remainder of the opportunities?

Brown: So far I have a had to do anything with the remainder opportunities that I have. For the ones that kind of come to a head I end up evaluating them. I give them some sort of proposal, and as a result of that communication the potential clients usually takes action. Typically, I haven't had anyone aged out that was interested in doing business with me. Although, there has been incidences where I had to turn down people because the pay was too low.

Warren Sullivan: Do you pass along the leads you turn down to other developers?

Allen Brown: I don't really know any other developers or anyone that does what I do. The only people I do know where the ones that work for me.

Warren Sullivan: Why do you think that is?

Allen Brown: I think it is a high demand area, but also I tend to stay so busy in my business life and personal life that I don't get out and network as much as I would like to.

Warren Sullivan: Can you describe your typical client?

Allen Brown: Yes! A typical client has an app idea, and business idea which go hand-in-hand. They are typically building a business around that app. they usually will be smaller clients. People who have the money to spend, or they have investment money lined up.

Warren Sullivan: Do you track new client metrics?

Allen Brown: Probably not.

Warren Sullivan: Do you keep track of your client acquisition process at all?

Allen Brown: No. I usually try and constantly improve my processes. Such as keeping track of my proposals and contracts. I like to improve them as I go, so I can keep using these processes. But, I haven't had much of a real need to streamline, or even professional eyes that acquisition process.

Warren Sullivan: What is the best way that you have found to recruit a new client?

Allen Brown: All of my recruiting is usually Word of Mouth. usually the way it happens is someone who knows what I do or uses my service will refer opportunities to me. Also, I have found ways to identify a bad opportunity. That would be any where someone wanted to set me up with someone else blindly. Those situations typically never work out and it's good to avoid them. In a situation where as someone who had no reason to refer someone to me.

Warren Sullivan: If someone has no real reason to refer someone to you. Why do you think they would?

Allen Brown: It's hard to say. maybe they've just feel like they are connecting people. There are people out there that just feel the need to connect people with other people.

Warren Sullivan: So, so what lack of positive qualifiers are red flags. What would be a good indicator that this wouldn't be a good client to work with?

Allen Brown: There can be several indicators. One of them being... Signs of them not having any money. Since, I make my living from doing this job it is important to pay attention to that sign. Some people have a full-time job, and then also doing stuff on the side. They can, and in some way handle those mistakes better than I can. If I end up engagement ,and then don't get any money...or lose 50% of the money I should have received over a three-month period. That could be very devastating to my financial situation.

Warren Sullivan: Are there any tell-tell signs that they don't have any money?

Allen Brown: The most obvious sign is their reluctance to want to spend money. That being said, my billing rate would usually scare most of them away. I mean it's not as high as professional consultant rates, but it would be safe to say that it's fairly High. This being from a startup communities standpoint. They would love you to work for equity, or they would love you to work for 20 to $30 per hour.

Warren Sullivan: Are there any other signs that you can talk about?

Allen Brown: Yes, another thing that can be really painful for me when they don't have a team of people. Because, what I provide is generally just the app development. I'm not bottle rocket or Xcube labs, meaning I don't have a phone company right now. So, typically I need a designer to be on my team, some sort of project manager, we need some quality assurance testing, or even a back-end developer. So, there are roles that need to be filled, and I only feel one roll. So, pulling together a team is what I have ran into trouble with before, and I am learning that those roles need to be filled. If a client can't bring them in then we're going to have to find a way to recruit people into those roles.

Warren Sullivan: So, on the flip side of the red flags. Are there any positive signs, or indicators that tell you that this would be a good client to work with?

Allen Brown: A good client to work with could be someone who has a team of people, and only needs me to do the app development. Also, the ideal client is willing to provide prompt payment. Some of these indicators are hard to see until later into the engagement, which can be very unfortunate. Another red flag/green flag would be signs of whether or not the person thinks rationally, and all reasonable and their expectations. and the reality is that not everyone is able to do that.

Warren Sullivan: How long does it usually take you to go from being introduced to a client to converting them into a client?

Allen Brown: Probably a week to a month depending on the opportunity. If someone is really interested in building an app there is usually not too many weeks before we get going.

Warren Sullivan: How much does it cost you to recruit a new client?

Allen Brown: Great question! There have been times where I`ve spent 80 hours, and that has been painful. Then there are other times when it could be closer to 8 to 16 hours of work.

Warren Sullivan: What accounts for that variance?

Allen Brown: A large part of it could be how fully baked is the idea? One of the opportunities I am actually wrapping up right now. Not only do they have sketch designs, but they have a envisioned in their minds. In most cases 80%-90% of the app is already envisioned. so they have done a ton of work, and figure out what they wanted. Such as, figuring out user experience, and user interface...ect. So, that was a much lower cost of Entry for me. Then another one would be someone who's on the other end of the spectrum at the 80 hours. There was a college professor you had some time for a app prototype. He had word doc, and a flow chart, and none of it was well developed. So in those cases It is very rough to work with.

Warren Sullivan: Do you bill for the hours you take in pursuit of your client? Like that hours for instance is that all just on you?

Allen Brown: Not exclusively no. Although, I have been thinking about doing that. That is actually another pain point for me. Sometimes people think that, just because I'm an app developer I can give hours of my time away discussing my app ideas. There isn't always good motivation for that or any way to recover that. Depending on what comes up may actually offered to charge for Insider knowledge. Sometimes people don't really know what to do. They may have an idea of work to do, but if all you have is an idea there's still a lot of work to do. but, like I said I don't really have the time to sit down and help everybody through that process just because I'm app developer.

Warren Sullivan: So, this is the last question in the business practice section. How much collaboration is required to deliver your work product?

Allen Brown: It depends on the development process. In that example I gave you... were they have built out an envisioned app, and have sketch designs. In those cases there is not a lot of collaboration required. Even in the other example I gave you we are still figuring it out as they go. That is not necessarily bad, especially if I know that I am getting into that kind of Engagement.In that case more collaboration would be needed. Some Engagements we have had effectively Sprint's of work to do. so in that case your collaborating more and you'll have a designer designing things that the client wants. Everyone is collaborating as your building everything out. There are some cases where it is more of a fully baked product, and there isn't as much needed.

Warren Sullivan: This next section we're moving into is surrounded around professional development. So, what does professional development mean to you?

Allen Brown: Professional development to me mean developing the technical Stills I need to develop my job well. But, also the means to developing softer skills like good time management, motivation, good client interactions. Then, since I'm also self-employed, and have my own business. A large part of that is making it profitable, and enjoyable.

Warren Sullivan: What resources do you currently use for personal development?

Allen Brown: Well, on a technical skill side of things. Big Nerd Ranch is one of the resources I use. I take training classes from them, and also sometimes use their books. Another one is Ray Wunderlich, which has great tutorials when various kill said that you need to acquire. I tend to go to worldwide developer conferences every year There's always a lot of training involved there. Those are probably pick ones on the technical side of things.

Warren Sullivan: So, are these primarily physical or virtual resources?

Allen Brown: Well, Ray Wunderlich is all virtual. Nerd Ranch is primarily in-person training classes. but I've used some of the material with a junior developer to get them up to speed on the word I needed them to do. Then the worldwide developer conferences are both physical, and virtual resources. The record they record everything, so even after the conference you can take it home.

Warren Sullivan: Is that just available to attendees, or is it available to everyone?

Allen Brown: Everyone. The challenge you have with these resources though is, if you aren't very intentional and have a purpose for going. It's hard to actually consume the information content, and actually learned from it. Because, everyone inside is getting too busy with things , or they jump into whatever the trying to do because they don't feel they have enough time. So, that's the thing about being at a conference is your forcing yourself to pay attention, and devote the time.

Warren Sullivan: Do you think there are trade-offs in attending conferences? Do you see there being some sort of trade-off between doing it on your own time versus doing it on someone else's time?

Allen Brown: Yes! Clearly there is a trade-off, because on-demand resources are convenient. I think if people stop to take the time to reflect over there past projects, and think about the time they didn't spend to learn it ahead of time they would be doing yourself a big favor. There's definitely a benefit to take a nap time out to attend.

Warren Sullivan: How do you evaluate whether a course/conference is worth spending money on/or attending?

Allen Brown: I have had a lot of experience with W.W.C conferences.

Warren Sullivan: Because, there is a enough app developer conferences around the world that you could just go to conferences, right? Ultimately, not having to do any work. How do you evaluate those opportunities?

Allen Brown: In the case with W.W.C it's easier, because the one I went to was the last week I was employed with a company. They let me go to the conference the Monday I got back to work. For me in particular, and probably for a lot of other people in a particular technology. It's important to get pumped up and excited about what you're working on. so, that is huge W.W.C. There's a lot of being excited about what's going on. Cynically you could call it drinking the Kool-Aid. in the case of W.W.C that don't just have a ton of training sessions On different new topics. But, they also give you access to employee that you wouldn't have any other time of the year. It's a really obvious decision to go, because you can meet with engineers it's actually wrote the code that you're having problem with. you can talk with them, and sometimes I give you advice. When you go to those conferences you're actually talking to the people who wrote the code themselves. You can't really get that any other time of the year, and the kind of access is very difficult.

Warren Sullivan: So you're evaluating the in person interactions you're having in the access inquiry the individual, and not necessarily the content they're presenting.

Allen Brown: Exactly! You can take you app to the conference, and show it in front of Apple user experience experts. People who actually work for Apple, and can give me feedback on my app. In that time slot you have with them they will go over your app with you, and give you feedback. It's great to get with engineers and talk about the technology that you're struggling with.

Warren Sullivan: Are there any other conferences that you attend regularly?

Allen Brown: No!

Warren Sullivan: What is the last conference that you attended that wasn't W.W.C?

Allen Brown: The one across the street that you, and I had previously talked about. It was an (Name?) conference and was a very complementary type of conference. I think I would go to it again, if I couldn't get into any other conference. But, the benefits are very different.

Warren Sullivan: What were the benefits of All coff

Allen Brown: They tend to be more focused things that are valuable to me. Some of the things that they talk about are about running your own business. They also talk about different software developments , life cycles, different designs, and development patterns. That had several panels, and which one of them was a tech press talking about, how to get the Tech press to publicize your app. So, there was a lot of things you couldn't ever imagine Apple ever including into their conference, because it really isn't about them. So since it isn't about them they wouldn't present it. The All coff was completely the opposite.

Warren Sullivan:

Where would you get information otherwise?

Allen Brown: Some of it you would get from going to professionals. Then, other times you're get it from lawyers. Other times you could get it from, just collaborating with people. In many cases it's just from experience from working with different clients.

Warren Sullivan: Is W.W.C the only conference you have when your calendar, or do you look for other conferences to attend?

Allen Brown: Practically speaking it's W.W.C, and then it's a lot of my colleagues suggesting a great conference to attend. Typically... after some thought I won't attend though.

Warren Sullivan: So is that how you usually find out about the conference? Through a colleague?

Allen Brown: Yes.

Warren Sullivan: What are the selling points that make you want to attend the conference?

Allen Brown: Well, Coco Coff is probably one of my favorites to attend, and it's great for app Developers. It's typically held in Austin, Texas, so it is Driveable distance from me. But, it could be shorter ...such as just a couple days a week, and a little bit on the weekend. Which is good because you lose less work time. There was another one I considered going to another colleague of mine was speaking at. I think that was a design conference in September. But, I just had the time for it to go at the time.

Warren Sullivan: Sounds like you judge these conferences when a case-to-case basis. Is there a certain criteria that might make one of these conferences absolutely worth it, or is it more of a floating estimate of do I have the time, and am I available?

Allen Brown: Yes, If it's going to make this next project I'm working on more achievable. But, generally for me taking the whole week off to go to a conference in a year is plenty. Although, if something special work to come up the not my vary.

Warren Sullivan: Okay, moving on to the next section. What is personal growth mean to you?

Allen Brown: Personal growth opposed to professional growth would be. How do I stay motivated, and stay satisfied. Also, just being happy with the work I'm doing and the lifestyle that I have. I also strive to improve my interactions with other people.

Warren Sullivan: The next question is, do you see a connection between personal growth and professional development?

Allen Brown: Yes, just having size faction in the lifestyle that you're living. Those two things definitely feed off of each other. The amount of time that you spend with family, and friends can contribute to you being happier. Which then contributes to you working more efficiently.

Warren Sullivan: What resources do you use for personal growth?

Allen Brown: One of the resources I use for personal growth is interactions with other people. It's nice to see what other people are doing, and get feedback from them as well. Other resources I use are books, and audio-books. It is really helpful to me to hear other people's perspectives. one of the things that have a big impact on me personally would have to be Church.

Warren Sullivan: Would you say these are primarily physical, or virtual resources?

Allen Brown: I would have to say that it's a bit of a mix.

Warren Sullivan: Have you noticed a shift in the personal growth tactics that you use?

Allen Brown: Well not exactly a shift. I will say that being self-employed, and freelancing. I don't quite feel as I'm at odds what the things I'm reading, or hearing about. The same couldn't be said if I were in Corporate America. there are a lot of crazy ideas out there that aren't really compatible with corporate culture. when I was reading those things before it was more of a Dream, or something that stress me out. Because, I could see the reason in it but I knew that it was never going to happen.

Warren Sullivan: Can you please expand on that?

Allen Brown: I was more focused in a Pomodoro Technique. Although, doing it in the corporate world would have been possible... it would have been very awkward. When you're self-employed you can kind of make your own rules, and people accept that.

Warren Sullivan: So, what you're saying is. It's not even necessarily that the items where odds with corporate culture, but rather just the freedom and right to experiment with these things?

Allen Brown: Well, you would have had to fight for them, right! You would have to explain, and justify it, but when you're self-employed you get to make your own decisions. Does the desk fit? okay... well, then I'll do it. At the day it is much simpler. Same kind of thing with various Corporation tools. I mean if I feel like slack works better in the hip chat. That I just use that one.

Warren Sullivan: Do you feel like you are more efficient worker as a independent as opposed to when you are an employee?

Allen Brown: Yes, definitely!

Warren Sullivan: Are you able to qualify that and anyway?

Allen Brown: Not easily, no. I mean there's just a lot of overhead things that you have to do, because large companies have to have processes. It is important for people have to follow rules. As a result, At that the more micro-level a good look rather ridiculous. Such as being on two different goal setting plans in the same.You start asking yourself, "why am I doing two different gold plans in one year?"

Warren Sullivan: Can you tell me what you mean by two sets Goal planning?

Allen Brown: Well, at my last company we had smart goals.

Warren Sullivan: Where they B.H.A.G.S Big Hairy Audacious Goal?

Allen Brown: When they decided they were ready to prototype, and start rolling it out to some organizations. That meant you would be doing smart goals, and different processes.

Warren Sullivan: Do you have benchmarks for your own personal growth that you use?

Allen Brown: The thing that I am currently working on isn't really working all the time. I am working At it a lot.

Warren Sullivan: Do you work more as a freelancer, rather then an employee?

Allen Brown: Yes.

Warren Sullivan: What do you contribute that to?

Allen Brown: One of the things is that I switch Is my skill sets. The skill set that I have now is not one that I had when I was in Corporate America. My skills consist of app development. I found that a lot of people don't charge enough money when they first start out. Which contributes to more work, so that's something to keep in mind.

Warren Sullivan: Going back to you not wanting to Benchmark yourself all the time. Do you have a set Benchmark for that?

Allen Brown: I do not formally set benchmarks for myself. For me it would mean not needing to work on weeknights or weekends Although, I reserve the right to work on weekends if I want to. The only way I would work off hours is if there was some kind of emergency. Although, I found that a lot of my happiness and enjoyment in live does revolve around the work that I already do. For me there's not some rigid boundary where I can never work in the off-hours.

Warren Sullivan: Do you feel that there was a more rigid boundary when you was in the corporate world?

Allen Brown: There's certainly some sort of notion that if you on vacation for example...you will not work. in my opinion that is an artificial perception. I think that if you're on vacation youshould certainly enjoy your time vacationing, but you might be doing something that looks like work but be having a lot of fun doing it. Vacation should be about, getting away from the stress of things. But, that doesn't mean that I can't do something like code, or type on a computer.

Warren Sullivan: This is the last question in the personal growth section. Have you been able to correlate investments in your personal grow with your business growth? Has gained in your personal growth helps you any in your business?

Allen Brown: In many respects everything feels really expose. I am the business, so if I am not happy or getting along well with other people, or if I'm not satisfied has a impact on a business.

Warren Sullivan: So, this is the last question on co-working culture. What factors made you start working in a co-working facility?

Allen Brown: I had went on a business trip to Las Vegas to Tony Shays local area. They have this downtown Las Vegas project. We had went on this trip back in April 2013, and as a result we started working together. There are several factors. One thing that I did notice is that when I was working at home it was good for a while. and then I saw my efficiency decline. I was constantly distracted by all kinds of things, Eventually I didn't even feel like working. For me having a separate place to work was huge. I used to work coffee shops, but coffee shops have a lot of things out of your control. Which is conducive to you working. One example of this would be... this one time I was in a coffee shop there was a guy, and a girl making out behind me while I'm working. I know they were just there for some kind of social thing, but still I was trying to work. I find this relate to affect my ability to work efficiently. Another example of a coffee shop... I was working at the coffee shop, and the power went out. I guess the owner didn't pay the bill, which was very distracting. Then there are even advents at coffee shops or they have to close down.

Warren Sullivan: How long have you worked in the co-working facility?

Allen Brown: I started at a co-working facility shortly after I got back to Dallas. One of the places that I had worked out for a while was Tech Church, which is kind of liking a little bit. Then I was also at the executive Lounge which what shut down. I think I was there, about six months. if I recall correctly, they close back in 2013.

Warren Sullivan: what was the differences between the different co-working environments that you've been in?

Allen Brown: What is really interesting about one of the facilities that I worked at is that they had a cafe. It was really convenient, because it was open 24 hours. But, the amount of space they gave you was a little bit more restricted. They would do this weird thing where they would want to charge you for copies. Then, another maddening issue was that there WiFi was constantly having issues. Then at Tech Church there were certainly distractions at times. This being because they have things like pitch days. So, I mean I would have to say that distractions or a big factor as well. I know occasionally things are going to happen, but I would like to go to work knowing that I'll be able to get my work done with minimal distractions. Another big factor for me is what I feel like being in the neighborhood that I'm working in. I would ask myself are there things that I enjoy about the neighborhood. That was definitely one of the factors when I was working at Tech Church. It was very nice area, and my favorite part was uptown. One of the places that was nice to stop off at was Starbucks. Ultimately, there are even tons of things I like about working here, environment wise. It's nice to walk across to the tunnels, and grab some food. It's pretty Pleasant. So, one of the difference between working at the other facility, and here is that there is so much light here. Which is what kind of hook me when I first showed up here. This facility is very well Collective, and decorated. It is nice because with all the lighting's, and windows it makes it feel open. Another common theme is the question of how the place runs. Such as, if a place was constantly out of paper towels every single day. That would be a huge distraction to me. It is my perception that it really does help to have someone in charge of keeping those things moving.

Warren Sullivan: Since you have started co-working has your client acquisition process changed in anyway.

Allen Brown: I don't think that it has been tied to co-working per se. There are certainly more interactions now. There's a lot more networking going of people telling other people that I develop apps. In my early days of self-employment I was actually on Elance soliciting work.

Warren Sullivan: Do you think there's a natural instinct to avoid Elance as you develop, and get more established? Is Elance just something you do starting out because you need leads?

Allen Brown: Yeah, I did it because I needed leads. I think people equate places like Elance an odesk has places you go to get work done for an expensive price.

Warren Sullivan: Can you differentiate coworkers, and friends at a co-working facility?

Allen Brown: I use the word calling because, there in a professional environment with me. meaning we don't work together, but we work in the same field. That would be my definition of a colleague.

Warren Sullivan: Do you consider Jeffrey and John colleagues?

Allen Brown: I want to say... yes.

Warren Sullivan: Do you think that there needs to be separation between colleagues and friends in a Co-working facility?

Allen Brown: Some people might be colleagues if I feel like I don't have a personal connection with that person. A colleague would be someone that maybe works in the same field and we'll talk at a conference. light, We might know each others names, and what each other does, but there isn't a connection outside of that.

Warren Sullivan: Is there are some that would be called a friend, and not a colleague?

Allen Brown: Probably not.

Warren Sullivan: Would you say that the engagement would differ between a colleague, and a friend? What factors makes you want to engage with that person? The purpose of this interview is to figure out how relationships difficulty form.

Allen Brown: Yes, when you don't feel like you have a connection with someone, and then they want your feedback on something... you feel like you're just giving it away. In my opinion, there isn't really any real reason to do that. I get questions all the time from people about app development that I don't know. Which is typically okay, as long as it`s casual conversation. But, that doesn't mean that I want to go have a 2 1/2 hour lunch with that person, and help them figure out all kinds of things. I think I would feel like I have lost a lot of personal time.

Warren Sullivan: How does someone go from being this outsider in Dells live to eventually asking questions?

Alan Brown: I think it is really just a history of interacting. I will use Madhu as an example... We have Interactive some, but not a lot over the past six months. So, I think at this point we feel pretty easy with each other. I'm not sure if we were really call each other friends, but we have great interactions. We feel comfortable enough to interact, and sometimes I do run things by him. Then the opposite end of the spectrum would be... if you try to say hi to someone, and I don't even say anything. That would be weird, and something to avoid. Ultimately, a source of people saying hi, and willing to introduce themselves. This way you get to know each others names and what each other's does. What helps is to have some kind of view into that person's world, and just to get an idea of who they are. Whatever that might be...professional, can be traveling. Certainly, one of the positives would be when they can help you out with something. Then you are able to turn around and help them out with something. That is the best way to start building every a relationship. It creates a feeling that neither one of us are going to get stuck in a one way trade off, all you're doing is losing time.

Warren Sullivan: It's probably because some people are in fear the Big Time stuff, and just need a little bit of help.

[01:31:08]