Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Council

WEDNESDAY, 20 NOVEMBER 1901

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1924 Supply. [COUNCIL.] Validation qf Electoral Arts.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

\VED~ESDAY, 20 NOVE>IBER, 1901.

The PRJJJSIDJmr took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

SPECIAL SALES OF LAND BILL­APPROPRIATION BILL :1\o. S.

ASSENT.

The PlcESIDENT announced the receipt of a message from His Excellency the Lieutenant­Governor, intimating that the Roy<tl assent had been given to these Bills.

JOINT LIBRARY CO:\IMITTEE. The SECRE'l'ARY FOR Pt'BLIC IN­

STRuCTION (Hon. J. :JYiurray) moved-1. That the Honourable B. D. 3-Iorehead be appointecl

tt member of the Joint Library Committee, ir._ the room of the Honourable \Yilliam Allan, deceased.

2. That such appointment be notified to the Legisla­tive Assembly by me:-:;~.o1ge in the usual form.

Question put and passed.

VALIDATION OF EXISTING ELECTIONS AND ELECTORAL DISTRICTS ACTS.

* HoN. A. H. BARLO\V, in moving-·rhat in the opinion of this Council the vresent posi­

tion of the existing Elections Acts and the Electoral Dbtricts J._ct calls for the immediate attLntion of the Gm-ernment and of the Imperial authorities-

said : I bring thi:; matter before you, not as con­tentious business or a matter of party, but as a matter which I think the Legisbti ve Council should take into its earnest con,;idemtion. I will endeavour to be as brief &•, possible in setting before you a number of, perhaps, some­what dreary facts. Last week the l\1inister in charge of the business in this House laid upon the table three papers; one was a despatch from Mr. Chamberlain, the Secretary of StatE' for the Colonies, to the effect that he was advised that owing to the effect of clamd 14 of the Order in Council of the 6th June, 1859, an Act passed last session-namely, the Parliament of the Common­monwealth Elections Act and the Elections Acts of 1885 to 18!!8 Amendment Act of 1900-required special validttion. He also enclosed a copy of an Act of Parliament, chapter 29 of His pr~·,ent Majesty, which validated certain Acts of New South \Vales, Queensland, and \V est ern Australia. The Queensland Act validated was that I have just mentioned. Accompanying this was an Order in Council made by His Majesty on the 15th June, 1901, in which he declared his assent to the Parliament of the Commonwealth Elections Act. I have prepared a very careful brief on the question to which I re·.pectfully ask your attention. In order to explain the question it is very desir­able we should go back right to the beginning and see what the origin of this Constitution and legislature is, of which we are members. In the early days of New South \Vales there

Validation of [20 NovEMBER.] Electoral Acts. 1925

was no legislaturA at all. The Governor made the local laws, and published them in his Gazette, and those people who did not like to obey them had to leave the colony or be deported. There were two court" of justice. 'The Governor was absolute with military courts for civil matters, and the Go­vernor and the Judge Advocate for civil matters. The Judge Advocate was judge, jury, and prose­cut::>r in one. Therefore, in those days, there was complete absolutism. Then certain persons called '':\I. C." were called into council who were not official members-not members of the civil service. They were very few in numbfcrs, and werealwaysoutnurnbered by the official members. Amongst these the name'· of Berry, i\IcArthur, and Blaxland will be remembered by hon. gentle­men. The first addition of electect members to this Council was effected by the Act 5 and 6 Vie. No. 76, passed in 1842. This authorised certain members to be elEcted although it did not make re­sponsible government. The :\1inisters were civil servants appointed by the Home Government, who did not retire from office if they weredefe:tted. This Ace re~erl'es two things for Her Majesty's ple:tsure-the di vi,ion of the colony into electoral districts and the number of members who shall be electect. In 18ii0 there was a further exten­sion, and power was given by that Act for New South \Vales to reconstruct its legislature after the separation of the colony of Victoria. That was 13 ancl U Vie. chapter 39, and it required the following things to be reserved for Her Majesty's pleasure-namely, the mvde of election, the quali­fication of members and electors, and the division of the legislature with two Hon-es; and it was provided that Bille relating thereto must lie on the table of the British Parliament for thirty days before they were finally assented tn. In 1Sflii the Legislative Council of New South \Vales passed a new Con,titution Act which em­powered Her ::\1aje.,ty, by an Order in Council, to alter the northern boundary of X ew South \V.,.les and create a new colony. At page :J035 of the >tatutes will be found an Imuerial Act which was p:;ssed to enahle Her Majesty to assent to that ~·cct of Parliament of N ev- South \Vales. She could not assent to it on ber own n1ere 1notion, because it gave a\vay certain rights of the Crown, such as Crown lands, control of the Customs and various other things. Therefore it was necessary for the Imperial Government to pass an authorising Act, which, a" I have said, is to be founct on page 3031\ of the statutes. Section 3 of that Act applied the restrictions I have spoken of-that is, the election and number of member,;, the division into electoral ctistrict.s, and so on-to the new Constitution. On page 3043 of the sta.tntes will be found the Order in Council which is referred to in Mr. f'hamber­lain's despatch. It reiterates those reservations, and further applies them to the Legislative Conncil "" well as to the Legislative Assembly of Queensland. It is very strange that not one single Act of our legislature, as regards the division into electoral districts, or regulating the election of members, has been resened since the year 1871.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IKSTRUCTION : You are wrong.

HoN. A. H. BARLO\V : I shall be very glad to be corrected if I am wrong. In that year there was the repeal ,,f what was known as the two-thirds clause, and I have not been able-of course I speak subject to correction-to find any validation of Acts subsequent to that. At any rate, there is this irresistible fact that the Elec­tions Acts, 1883 to 1898, and the Electoral Dis­tricts Act of 1887 have not been validat~d. They are not validated by this chapter 29 of Ed ward VII. And even if they had been validated the legislature that passed them was an incompetent

legislature, because, as far as I can find out, the Elections Act of 1872, which immediately fol­lowed on the repeal of the two-thirds clause, was not itself validated. I left off at the point where the Order in Council of the Gth J lllltl, 1859, had applied those reservations to the uew Con­stitution of Queensland, to the Council as well as to the Assembly. The queAtion I would suggest that this Council should ask the Government to take into consideration is whether this was a declaratory proceeding or an enacLing proceed­ing. If the Crown simply declared that, whereas this law applied to the territory that was about to be formed into the colony of (~ueens­land it should still apply, I shall have some­thing to say about it subsequently. If the Order in Council was an enacting force then the same power that made can unmake, and a telegram to Mr. Chamberlain from the Govern­ment will obtain another Order in Council to upset that. \Vith respect to this declaratory question, I am rather surprised-not being a lawyer I may be entirely wron;;-that the Crown Law Officers in England have not taken notice of the Act 25 and 2G Vie. c. 11, which was assented to on the 11th April, 18G2. And I would ask hon. gentlemen to remark that this is after separation, our separation coming into effect in 18ii9. This is an Act entitied '' An Act tor the Better Government of Her JYiajesty's Australian Colonie"." In the preamble it says it was en.;cted that it should be lawful for the Governors and Legislative Councils of the colonies of New South Wales, Victoria, Van Dieman's Land, and South ~'l.ustralia to do certain thing.o. The 2nd section recites the limitations I have spoken of. It says-

And be it further declared and enacted the term Council in the above-recited proviso of the said first­l'ecited Act Rhall be deemed to apply only to the Legis­lative Councils herein before first mentioned.

That is, to the Councils of New South \V ales, Victoria, Van Dieman's Land, and South Aus­tralia. If this has any meaning, it clearly repe:tls those limitations as regards the colonies of Queensland and \V estern Australia. My lwn. friend opposite may show that I am wrong in snme respect", bnt I do not think he can show that the Acts of 18R5 and 1887 have ever been validated. They are certainly not validated here, as I said before. \Vhat is the consequence of this? Mv humble opinion i" that the election of 1902, unless something is dvne, must be held under the last validated Elections Act and the last vali­dated Act of electoral districts. Then what becomes of \he Criminal Corle? Is it not just pos­sible th>tt it was passed by a Lq-i•lative A·"sembly elected by shadowy voters for shadov. y constitu­encies? There may be no Logislative Assembly at all, and the only properly constituted )Jart of the legislature was this branch of it. Suppose a man h3d been sentenced to death unrler that Criminal Code, if I were a Minister I should have a very great difficulty in going any further 'Nith him until some action was taken. How­ever much we may dislike crime, we love con­stitutional government and constitutional forms a great dE<al more, I need not enlarge upon the f)_uestion, except to state that the Federal Parliament is invohed in this business. The elections to the Senate are involved in it, and I cannot say bow far they are Yitiated by this informality. I need not assure the Minister that this is not meant as a reflec­tion upon the Government. Although I am not permitted to refer to a debate in another place, a statement has been made on the highest authority that the Act of 1885 was vali­dated. I fail to find in this Edward VII. c. 29, any validation of any Act whatever, except the Commonwealth .Elections Act. This is so serious a matter that I think it would warrant the

1926 Pharnwr,y Bill. [COUNCIL.] Pharmacy Bill.

summoning of a special session of the Imperial Parliatllent. I earnestly commend the matter to the ><ttention of the :Minister; and if the Government take any 110tice of anything I say­l do not know whether they do-perhaps the :Minister may feel disposed to adjourn this debate, and bring up some information to the C<•nncil on the subject upon which I have endeavoured to debate.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTIO:N : I think the Hon. Mr. Barlow is deserving of considerable credit for his very valuable research. No doubt it is very desirable that these things should be cleared up, and that whatever we do should be perfectly legal. ::\Tow, since the hon. gentleman gave notice of his mo­tion, l ha Ye had a very lengthy interview with the Attorney-General, and he gives me this information. He says that on the receipt of the despatch mentioned by the Hon. :\Ir. Barlow from the Secretary of State p<linting out that the Acts of last year with respect to the Federal elections should have been reserved for the signification of Her :\Iajesty, he communi­cated with the Attorneys-General of 2'/ ew South \Vale" and Victoria, both of which colonies are subject to the provisions of 5 and 6 Vie. and 13 and H Vie., with the object of ascer­taining whether the electoral laws passed in tbo,e colonies had been reserved for the signi­fication of Her Majesty, and he was informed in reply that they bad not been so re,erved. The Attorney-General of New South \Vales plainly intimated that he did not agree with the views of the Colonial Office. This colony is in exactly the same position as the colo­nies of 1\ ew Snuth \V >tle" and Victoria; but I understand the Attorney-General of this colony is preparing a memorandum pointing out that, assuming the views of the Colonial Office to be correct, it might be necessary for ·"he Imperial Parliament to pass an Act validating the election of 1897. The Hon. 'Mr. B.1rlow has said that no Acts have been validated since 1871, and I inter­jected th>tt all Acts passed prior to 1894, which ought to have beeu reserved, were validated by the Confirmatory Act of 1894. All legislation passed by the colonies up to 18\H had been legalised, and therefore tbe only hi,ch at the present time i" in regard to the election that took place in 1897, "nd for which the Attorney­General say" it mcty be nece,sary to appeal to :he lrnTJerial Parliament to pass a validating Act. That, I understand, is the real position of affairs at the present time.

HoN. A. H. BARLO\V : I am exceedingly glad that this matter has been brought to light, and that the public mind ha~ been allayed on the snbjec'. I ca.nnot say any more, and under the circumstances I will ask leave to withdraw the motion.

:\lotion, by leave, withdrawn.

PRICKLY PEAR SELECTIONS BILL. THIRD READING.

On the motion of the HoN. B. B. MORETO:i'\, this Bill was read a third time,

[4 p.m.] passed, and ordered to be returned to the Legislative Assembly by

message in the usual form.

PHAR:\1ACY BILL. C01JMI'l'TEE.

Clauses 5, G, and 7 passed as printed. On clause 8, as follows :-The board may appoint a registrar :wd such ex.

aminers and other officers as the board think necessary

for O'ivinO' effect to the provisivns of this Act and the by-l~ws, ~md may p~y to such oHicers such salary and allowances as the board thinl{s fit.

All such persons shall hold otlice during the vieasure of the board.

:Yothing in this Act contained shall be construed to prevent the board from a,ppointing ?ne or more of its membBrs to be an examiner m· examiners, or from pay­in;; to him m· them such fees in that behalf as may be prescribed.

HoN. B. D. MOREHEAD said the lasb por­tion of tbe clause seemed to give the board power to grease the fat pig, and he would like to have somP explanation of it. He thought it was alto­gether too large a power to grant to the b'?ard, who should, if they were allowed to be exammers at all, not be paid fees for the work.

HoN. C. F. MARKS was inclined to agree with the last speaker. A commission which had sat in England recently on the question nf ar.my medical reform had recommended the appomt­ment of an advisory board, and it was spPcifically provided that the members of that board should not act as examiners.

HoN. B. D. MOREHEAD said he took stroug exception to the board haviug power to a.ppoint one or n1ore ot then 1nernbers. as exanjners. From the experience he had gamed elsewhere he chould say that it was very unlikely if the power was granted thab they would not appoint their members as eJ<.aminers.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION: It appeared to him a very reasonable thing that one or more members of the board should act'" examiner a. \Vith regard to the ,payment of fees the bnard were pttying away their own money.

Hon. B. D. MoREHEAD: \Vhose money? Th~ SECRETARY :FOR PUBLIC IN­

STRUCTIO?\ : The mouey they bad control over. They <mly had two ,onrces of mcome­the fees that were paid by the candidates and a small subsidy of £100 received from the Gov~rn­ment. He did not know that it would be possible to appoint more desirable examiners than the members of the board, which would be composed of the best pharmaceutical chemists who \yould have the requisite knowledge to act as exammers, He presum-ed that when the whole of the pharmacPutical chemi;,ts were called upon to elect the board they wuuld elect the best chemists in the colony. \Vit.h reg<~rd .to the pi<ym~nt of fees the board could not drp m to the pubhc ex­chequer in any w"y beyond spending £100 which the Governme.nt granted to them. If the Hon. Mr. 1Yiorehead had a better scheme to propoHe he should be glad to bear it.

HoN. B. D. MO!tEHEAD: Surely the hon. gentleman pnt members of the Cuuncil into a strange position when he said that that was the Government scheme, bnt rf anyone had a better one t·• [Jropose he would be willing to accept it.

The SECRETAHY FOR Pt:BLIC INs'rHUCTION: No, I said I should be glad to hear it.

HoN. B. D. :MOREHEAD : The hon. gentle­man went further and said be would be pre­pared to accept it. That was an extmnrdi, ary position for th& representative of the Govtrn­ment to put himself in-that was to. ~ay, "If you do not like Huch and snch a proviSion I w1ll accept anything else you like to propose." .\V, ere the Government prepared to adopt a '1mrlar attitude in relation to all other Bills brought before the Conncil? \V us the bon. gentleman prevared to apply that principle to all Govern­ment measures, or only to the Bill referring to ph:ormaceutical chemists?

HoN. J. LALOR: If the Minister was wise he would hang up the J?ill. till next rear. Nobody appeared to want It; It was causmg a great waste of time, and there were more important matters to be dealt with.

Pharmacy Bil!. [:20 XovEMBER.] Phw·nutc,lj Bill, 1927

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTlON said he had no intention to hang the Bill up because it w<ts meeting with a little opposition. ·what he had said to the Hon. 1\Ir. ]\forehead was that if he could sm(gest a better scheme he would be very ple:L'ed to hear it. Prob~bly he would accept it, but it would rest with him to say whether it was a be~ter scheme or not.

Ho:-.. J. ARCHIBALD : Under the pre,ent Act the members of the board were not paid for attending meetings or for any services they ren­dered in the examination of candidates. There ·were no~ more than 203 registered chemists in the colony; out of those it was natural that the very beet selection would be made to the board. At present the work of the examiners was a per­fect farce. It occupied one or two nonrs a year. If the examinations were of a mure critical character they would take as many days as they now did hours, and he failed to see why the gen­tlemen holding thus~ examinations should not be paid a reasonable amount for their services.

HoN. A. NORTOX said they had been told over and over again that the present board had been doing most valuable work, <tnd now it appeared from the Hon. Mr. Archihald that for the last twenty-seven years their examination had been a farce. He could not help believing 'that their work on the whole had been good work, and carried out in a 1n::~nnfT deserving- of commendation, and he could no'. believe that they had been in the habit of holding examina­tions which were ridiculous. It was decidedly objectionable that men wbo hHd been so far unpaid, and who, sn far as the Bill was cm­cerned, were not to he paid, should have the opportn~ity of getting over the diffieulty hy appointing themselves examiners, and paying themselves as such. The ::\Iinister said what did it matter; the money would be expended. It mat,tered very much whether they gave them­selves the money or spent it in a legitimate way. The money was not. the board's; it belonged to the pharmaceutical society. HP moved that the 3rd paragrat>h of the clause be omitted.

HoN. G. W. GRAY said he understood the examinat.ion occupiPd twentv full days throughout the vear. The examiners consisted of competent outsiders and one or two n:embers of the board. The outside examinPrs received fees; the members of the board who acted as ·examiners received no fees. The object of the clause wae that they should all be treated alike. Out of the £100 a year received from the GO\·ernment the registrar was paid, and the balance went in certain fees to the examiners.

Hox. A. NORTON : It was the principle of an upaid board being able to pay itself in a roundabout way that h.e objected to.

The SECRETARY :FOR PGBLIC I~­STRUCTION said he recognised the principle that the labourer was worthy of his hire. As a rule, prnfe"sional men did not give their time and attention for nothing, and there was no rlonbt the examination of candidates would occupy a considerable time.

Ho:-~. A. NOR TON: They need not examine them. Let them employ somebody else.

HoN. C. F. ::\IARKS : Thfl board ought tc• be -progressive, and none of them should act as examiners whether paid or not.

Que<tion-That the words pn>posed to be omitted stand part of the clause-put ; and the Committee divided :-

CoxTEXTS, 9. Hon. ,J. Are hi bald Hon. B. B. :lloreton

.. 1. Gibson J. :J.1urray (~. \1~. Gray \V. G. Power J. C. lleussler A. J. Thynnc

•. J. Lalor 7'eller: Hon. A. Gibson.

~OT-CO::\"TFXT.~~,

Hon. A. H. Barlow W ... Y. Brown A. J. Carter F. Clewett. A. C. Gregory

Tellei~: Hon. \.1~. Y. Bl'O\Yll.

Re,;olYed in the negative.

[4'il0 p.m.]

10. Hon. C. F. 2\Iarks

B. D. )lorehead A. Xorton J. T. ~mith \V. ~\ rraylor

Clause, as amended, put and passed. On clause (l, as follows:-Every person, whether male or female, shall be

entitled to be registered under the provhdom; of this ....-\._et upon making application in that. behalf in the pre"·':ribed torm. and upon praYing to the satisfaction of the board that such person~

(i.) Has att'lined the age or twenty-one years, and is a person of good tame and character; and

(ii.) Is registered under the Pharmacy Act of !884; or

(iii.) Ha:-: obtained the prescribetl certificate of fit .. ness after the prescribed f''l.amination ; or

(iY.) Holds a reco~nised certificate.

Ho:-.. A. H. BARLOW moved that in line 50 the words "is registered under the Pharmacy Act of 1Hti4" be omitted, with the view to in­serting th!:'! words "is regi-.tered or would have been entitlerl to be registered under the J\fedical Act of 18G7 or the Pharmacy Act of 1884."

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION" s<tid it wou:d have been much better if the hon. gentleman had proposed his amendment as originally printed, instead of in­serting the words "the ::V1edical Act of 1SG7." He thou0ht it would complicate matters very much if those words were put in, but if he pro­posed his amendment as originally printed he would have no objection to it.

Ho:-.. A. H. BARLOW : The amendment can do no harm. It simp:y protected the rights of anybody who might be entitled to be registered under either of those two Acts.

The SEcnETARY FOH PuBLIC I:<~sTRUCTION : I do not think it is worth while providing for those under the Act of 1867.

HoN. A. H. BARLO\V: He had a concrete case that he could bring forward if necess~ry, buc he would not waete time by doing that if the Committee would preserve the rights of people who might be entitled to registratiOn under both of these Acts.

HoN. W. F. TAYLOR thought it was going too far back to protect the rights of people who might havP been registered uncler the Medrcal Act of 1867. Linder that Act the old Medical Bnard registered chemists. The Act, of course, had been repealed by the 1884 Act, but section 7 provided--

So chemist and druggist sh:1.11 obt.nin a certificate from the -:\ienical Board of this colony except upon the prorl nction oi' testimonials satisfactory. to such. board, and stating tha.t he has been eilgaged for a penod :not less than thrc>e ye:trs in learning pharmacy and chern1cal affinities and that he is ~tnalitiHl to compound and dispense' medicines. ProYided that this Act shall ~1ot be construe•t so as to preYent any person frmn selhng uncontpounded drugs and patent medicines.

He was a member of the board when that Act was in force, and some of the people who came hefore them for registration had such very doubt­ful qualificatiom that the board were actually ashamed to register them, and i_n s~lf-defe,nce thPV inslituted a system of exammatJOn. "-''"" a number of the people wbo would come under the amendment proposed by the Hon. Mr. Barlow would be the very people who c"uld not pass the examination prescribed by the_ old Medical Board, and yet they would bP ent1tled to registration as pharmaceutic;;! chemists. For the last seventeen years they had had a complete system of pharmacPutical examinations. M~ny of the students had spent much money and t1me

1928 Pharmacy Bill. [COUNCIL.] Pkarmary Bill.

in qualifying themselves for examination, and it certainly was not right to place those people on the same footing as men who could not pass a simple examination such as that prescribed under the .Medical Act of 1867. He thought it would be a menace and an injury to the public to allow men of that stamp to become qualified a" phar­maceutical chemists.

Hox. A. H. BARLOW : Seeing that his amendment was opposed, he should be compelled to produce the concrete C'>Se to which he had formerly referred. He had received a letter from a gentleman who said-

[ served unrlAr written articles with a registered chemist nnd druggist of Queensland, from December, lBiS, to December. 1881 (three years:), and by this ser­vice was entitled to registration as a chemi~t and druggist under the J1edical Act. 1807, on ::tttaining the ag<~ of twenty-one years. I attained this age on :nst Janu~ry. 1885. In 188± the Pharmacy Act wns passed,

1 but nnfortnnate1y for me there seemed to be no pro­vision made for one in my position. On attaining U1c age of twenty-one years, I applied to the :Medical Board for registration, but 1.vas informed they had no power in the matter, and was referred to thr PharnwcY Bvard, to whom I applied, and was also informed theY hacl no power to register me.

I m<ty state th>et more than half of the chem'sts in this State have been registered on the a hove qualifica­tion.

Since my apprenticeship I hav<; been almost con­stautly employed either a.-; as~istant or as manager of chemists' branch bnsine .. ses or as dispenser to medical men (twenty-three yL,tr·, in allJ. out of this time I ha Ye had ~ole charge of pharmacies for three years anrl mcrlical men's open dispt:n!'aries for four years. I am at present engaged as as::;istant chemist of this town.

Then he went on to say-If section 21 of tht: propo.sc<l Phurmaey Bill ie:, passed

it ·will }Jre\-ent me taking a position which it has been legal for me to do since 18'14; in fact it will be diffir:llt for me to get employJitellt at all, and as 1 ~'n m;n·1·ied and have a family to &UJJport it ·will be very hard on mf'.

He enclosed certain extracts with which it was not nec'''Sary to trouble the Council. He (Mr. Barlow) was sure that the Council had no desire t•' deprive any man of his living. There "eemed to be very few men who would be entitled to registration under the Act of 1867, and if they were not qualified they would of course not be registered. He asked the Council to take the painful case he had mentioned into consideration and nc't deprive the man of his living.

Hox. W. V. BROWN asked if the hon. W'ntle­man suggested that the person to whom he referred should be admitted as a pharmaceutical chemist without any examination simply because he served his articles for three years. \Vas it not O}Jen to hirn to pass an examination now, and why should he be admitted without pa sing an examination?

Hox. B .. D. MOREHEAD: Surely they were not gomg to dcd with a matter of this sort in the cold-blooded practical way in which the Hon. Mr. Brown proposed to deal with it! The case raised by the Hon. Mr. Barlow was one which he thought was deserving of great con­sideration. The man in question had probably during his career done as much good as many doctor,; bad done. He had known chemists in the interior, in fact, who hed done more good than the doctors. At any rate, they had not that craving for strong drink that many of the d•>ctors in the vVestern parts of the colony had. Many of the pharmaceutical chemists in the far \Vest had saved more li\·es than the highly qu~litied medical man who went out there, and he avpealed to hon. !ientlemen whether they did not kno':' of many mstanclls of that Burt. He mainta1md that the restrictions contained in the Bill, although apparently well meant, and on the face oi it very f·xcellent, could not be made to applv to a colony such as this. He had known the so.'called quack

to save life before to-day. It was the tendency in modern legislation to create close corporations in every direction. and more especially amongst the medical and legal fraternities. He wondered it was not proposed to fine and imprison those who came within the limits of thos<• provisions without authority. \Vhy should not a little more liberty be given even to the SO·C>tl!ed quack? In his experience Holloway's pills a.nd Cockle's pills and chlorodyne had done more for the people than all the doctors in the \Vest put together. People in the outside districts sent for some so·cal!ed quack medicine and they lived; they sent for a doctor and they died.

HoN. A .• T. THYNNE thought the hon. gentleman who had last spoken had been led by his large-heartedness to extend the discussion beyond the actual question at issue. The case which the Hon. Mr. Barlow had made out was deserving of consideration. If under the Act of 1884 no proper provision was made by which people who wern qualified at the time the Act was passed could be registered as chemisbc, then they ought to make that provision now, but the amendment "·hich the hon. gentleman proposed went very muc!J uu·c!ter than that. As he read it, every person entitled to register under the Medical Act of 18ti7 would be entitled to register now, and if that was the n1eaning of the anlend­ment he did not altogether agree with it, because it would do away altogether with the useful pro­viRions of the Bill before them. The Medical Act of 1x()7 przJVided under section 7-

No chemiH and druggist shall obtain a certific ·te from the 1-Iedical Hoard of this colony exc; pt upon the vroductiou of testimonials sath;factory to such hoard, and stating that he has been engaged for a period not less than t.ln·et~ years inlParning pharmacy and chemical allinitie~. and that he is tputliticd to compouud aml dis­pense medicine~:. Provided that this Aet shall not he construed so a.;; to prevent any per-son from selling un­compoun(, _d drugs 0r patent medicines.

The difficnity to which the Hon. Mr. Barlow referred coulrl not apply to any person who was not under apprenticeship in 1884, when the Phar­macy Act was passed. If the hon. gentleman fixed a time, and eaid that any perFon qualified before 1887 shou!d be entitled to registration, that would meet the case or any similar case such as tl>at he had quoted.

HoN. A. H. BARLOW said that his corres­pondent pointed out that more than half the chemists in tbis StatP had been regi,tered on qualifications similar to his <>WU, bnt he could not be registered simply because he fell between two .stools. He said that since his apprentice­ship he had been constantly employed either as an assistant or as a manager of chemists' branch businesses, or as a dispenser to rnedical men. He w onld ask the Minister if he would be good enough to postpone the clause until time had been given to put the amendment in a different shape.

The SECRETARY FOH PUBLIC IN­S'l'RUCTIOl\ said he had no objection to postpone the clause.

Amendment withdrawn ; and clause D post-poned.

Clause 10 passed as printed. On clause 11, as follows :-If the board refn::;es to register any lJPr::Jon a::; a

pharmaceutical chemist, the hoard shall, if required by him, state in writing the reason for such retu~al ; and such person mny thereupon appeal to the Minister. and. thP .:\!mister may, after hearing such person and the board, dismiss the appeal or order the board to register such nerson, a11d such order shall be final and conclusive and sl1all be obeyed.

HoN. W. F. TAYLOR said be did not like the clause because it made the Minister the sole jn.ige of whether a person should be registered after the board had refnsed to register him. He did not see what the }linieter could know about

Fharmar,y Bill. [20 NOVEMBER.] Fharmac,y Bill. 1929

the case, and it was absurd to make his decision final and conclusive, and allow him to supersede the board. The board considered the matter carefully, and if they came to the conclusion that a man was not qualified, they were the best judges. The person concerned coulrl then, according to the ela.nse, <tppeal to the Minister; a little poli­tical influence would be brought to bear, and the 11inister thereupon would order the board to register him. That was decidedly wrong, and the clause oug-ht to be amended. The appeal to the :Minister should be eliminated. Let the man appeal to the Supreme Court. Why should the Minister set himself up as an absolute auto­crat on a matter he knew nothing about?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IX­STRUCTION: An appeal to the Supreme Court would be very expensive. 'l'he Minister could take evidence on the question, and the cost would hardly be anything at all. Of course it w'>s a fair objection that political influence might be brought to bear, and a man might be J)assed who should not be passed ; but that was a thing that was ,-ery unlikely to occur.

HoN. A. C. GREGORY th<mght it would be better to omit the clausP. In nineteen cases out of twenty the Minister wculd he a person not likely to be qnalified to judg-e on a profe,sional question as to whether a man was or was not qualified to carry on business as a chemist. The matter might safely be left in the hands of the board.

HoN. ,T. ARCHIBALD said that as the members of the board would be thoroughly qualified chemists, it would be absurd to appeal to a }1inister who knew nothing whatever about pharmacy.

Hox. A. H. BARLOW trusted the question of appeal would be allowed to go as provided in the Bill. They were forming the closest cC>rpora­tion it was pos ,jble to conceive. K o one could tell what motives might actuate the board, or what gross acts of injustice might be done. If the appeal to the Minister was taken away he hoped the Bill might never become law.

Hox. W, }'. TAYLOR said the omission of the clause would do away with any chance of political influence being brought to bear, but it would not do ,,way with the right to appeal to the Supreme Court ; and the board would be very careful, knowing that if a verdict was given against it it might be let in for a considerable amount in the shape of costs.

HoN. A. NORTON said it was desirable there should be an appeal, bnt he objected to an appeal to a :Ylinister who might be utterly incompetent to de,) with a question of that kind. It would be better to strike out the clause and leave the appeal to the Supreme Court.

Clause put ; and the Committee divided :-

Hon. A. H. Barlow , A. J. Carter ,, A. Gib:'lon , G. W. Gray , J. 0. Heussler

'1 e:;er: Hon. B. B. -:\Ioreton.

Hon. J. Lalor , :S. B. 3-Ioretou , J. Murray •• W. G, Power , A. J. Thynne

..\'01'-CONTKXTS, 9. Hon. J. Arcbibald Hon. B. D. :\forehead

, ·w. Y. Brown A. Nm·ton , F. Cle\,~ett ., ,J. ThorneloeSmith , A. C. Gregory ., Dr. Taylor ., Dr . ..Marks

1'e11er: Hon. J. Archibald. Resolved in the affirmative. On clause 12, as follows:-(1.1 The hoard shall ft·om time to time bold examina­

tioJ?S Of persons desirOUS Of qualifying themselves to be registered as pharmaceuticRl chemists, and shall grant certificates of fitness to persons who have pas"ied all th& examinations and fulfilled all the conditions :prescribed.

(2.) ::-lo person shall he admitted to the final qualify. iug examination unless he has attained the age of twentv-one Years and has fulfilled all the conditions presc1:ibed. ·

(tl.) 1'he board., instead of requiring any person to pass an examination in all the presc1·ibed subjects, may accept in substitution fol' the whole or any part thereof a certificate of examination in any subject or subjects granted by any uni,·ersity established within the Couunonwealtll of Australia, or any college of pharmacy, or other public educational institution now or hereafter io be established in Queensland.

Such certificate of examinntion shall have the like force and eftect as if such examination had been held by tl1e hoard.

HoN. C. }'. MARKS desired, after line 2:l, to insert a portion of clause 22 of the present Act, which read as follows:-

1.'he board shall examine all persons who shall present themselves for examination under the provisions of this Act as to their knowledge of the Latin language, botany, mafaiu 1nedico, pharmaceutical and general chemistry, practicrtl pharmacy, and such other snbjects as may from time to time be prescribed by the regula­tions: Provided that such examination shall not inclnde the theory and practice of med1eine, surger_:-, or mid­wifery. He thc>11ght it would be wise to specify the maxi· mum ,,wJ minimum amount of education re­quired . r a pharmaceutical chemist. There ought tu be a certain standard of knowledge, and if a candidate wished to go beyond that he showed a desire to qualify as a medical man, and woctld have to go e!.ewhere for examination.

Th<> SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IK­STRUCTION hardly saw the necessitv for laying down hard-and-fast lines upon which the board should carry out examinations, but he did not propose to object to the amendment.

Amendment agreed to; and clause, as amended, put and passed.

Clause 13 passed with a verbal agreement. On clause 14, as follows :-Erery pharmaceutictl chemist who obtains an)'

higher degree, diploma, or &tatus, or any qualification other than the qualifieation in respect of wilich he is registered. shall be entitled to have such higher degree, diploma. status, or additwnnl qnalification inserted in the register OD payment of the pre~cribecl fee.

HoN. A. J. CARTER: It seemed to him that an amendment was necessary on line 49 by in­serting after the word "shall " the words "on giving the necessary proof." He therefore moved that amendment.

HoN. B. D. MOREHEAD asked what was the n1eaning of the word "status."

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC I::'\­STH.UCTION presumed that it meant "position, standing, or qualification."

Ho1-:. B. D. l\IOREHEAD : There was no meaning in the word as used in the clau~e, and there was no use burdeuing the Bill with un­necessary words. He moved the omission of the words "or status.''

The CHAIRMA~ : An amendment has been moved in a later portion of the clause which it will be necessary to withdraw before that amend­ment can be moved.

HoJS'. A. J. CARTER had no objection to withdrawing his amendment to permit of that of the Hon. Mr. Morehead being moved .

Amendment withdrawn. HoN. B. D. MOREHEAD moved the om1s·

'lion, on line 48, of the words "or status." HoN. \V. J;', TAYLOR: They were indebted

to the Hon. Mr. Morehead for drawing attention to that absurdity. How could a "status" be registered ?

Amendment agreed to. HoN. A. J. CARTER moved the insertion, on

line 49, after the word "snail," of the words "on giving- the necessary noti..::e."

Amendment agreed to.

1930 Pharmacy Bill. [COF~CIL.] Pharmac.1f Bill.

On the motion of thE> HoN. B. D. :\lORE­HEAD, the clause was further verbally amended and agreed to.

C:ause 15 pasoed ns printed. On clause Hi--" Certain entries to be erased." On the motion of the Hox. A. H. BARLO\V,

this clause w.>o amended by the omissi<~n of the word " po,;t," on line 21, and the insertion of the words "sent by regbtered post letter" after the word ''notice.'~

Ulause, as amended, agreed to. On clause 17, as follows:-The name of any -pharmaceutical chemist. who, whether

before or after he is registered, 1i.) Is conYicted iu an~· part of His 1:Iajesty""

flominions o1· el~ewhere of any indictable offen<'e, or of anv other offence whieh, in the opinion of thC hoard, render~:~ him unfit to practisJ; or

1ii.) Is, after ct.ne inquiry, adjudged by the board to ha Ye beeu guilt\' of infamous eondnet in a pro­fe ,,~ionalrespect,

shall be erased from the rrgister.

Ho:-.. \V. F. TAYLOR trwHd tbat the words "a profeBsional" be Oiuitt~d. That would be fnllowerl, if carrif·~. by a consequential amend­ment. The word "professionel" was hardly appropriate in that case, becaw3e, whatever ex"minat ion a chemist migbt pass, the fact rem:tined that he wa• a business man who kept a shop.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC I~­STRUCTION said he should offer no objection to th,; amendment.

Amendment agreed to. HoN. \Y. F. TA YLOR moved that, after the

word "respect," the words "to his calling as a phannaceutical chemist" be in8erted.

A1uendment agreed to; and clause, as amended, put and pas;erl.

On clanse 18, as follows :-If the board erases the name of any person from the

rLgistf'r the hoard shall, if required by him, state in writing the reason for such erasnre; and such person may thereupon appeal to the Jiinister, and the )finister may, after hearing snch pert~on and the lJoard. dismiss the a}Jpeal or onler the bo:~rd to restore the name of such person to the register, ancl such Ol'dcr shall be final and conclusiYe, and shall be obeJed.

Ho:<~. W. ]'. TAYLOR said that was a some­whM eimilar clause to the one on which a division had just been taken; but it differed in this respect, that it was a question of erasing a narr.e from the reg-ister. That might possibly be of more importance than putting a name on the regitSter, because once a rnan'B name was on the register very good rea~ons ought to be shown why it should be removed. ln that ease the final decision should not be left with the Minister. He moved that all the words after the word "erasure" be omitted.

ThP SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC I::-J­STRUCTlO:N thought it would be a gre~tt privilege for a man to be able to appeal to the Minister in such a caee, and considered that the clau>e was better as it stood than as it was pro­posed to be amended.

HoN. B. D. MOREHEAD said the clause >as a very uujust one. The board first erased the name, and then, if the man protested, they had to state their reasons. That was beginning at the wrong- end. The man objec.ted to should first be asked to show reasons why his name Bhould not be erased, especially as his character, reputation, and livelihood were likely to be destroyed.

The SEtcRETARY FOR PURLIC INSTRrcno:<l : He need not appeal to the Minister unless he likes.

HoN. B. D. MOREHEAD: Was there to be no appeal to the court? He had known Minis­ters who were not infallible, and was a ponr

unfortunate wretch to be deprived nf his iiveli­hood and his character injurPd and destroyed hy a l\iinister? Surely such a contention could not be upheld!

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTIOK was inclined to think that the hon. gentleman was taking a wrong view of the clause. The whole clau~e protected the appli­cant. If he was struck off by the bo•rd or refused ·registration he could demand reasons, and he could then appeal to the ::\Iinister or he might appeal to the Supreme Court.

HoN. B. D. :\fOREHEAD: In order to make the matter quite clear he proposed to add at the end of the clause-

Provided anY such appeal to the Jiini;;ter ~lmll not impair or lim'it. any ri.~ht of appeal to any conrt of competent jnris1liction. He thought that would cover the whole ground.

The CHAIRMAN: I would point out that there is alre>tdy an amendment by Dr. Taylor before the Council, which must be withdrawn beforf\ that of the Hon. Mr. Morehead o.on be proposed.

HoN. \V. ]'. TAYLOR said he had no objec­tion to withdrawing his amendment.

Amenilment withdrawn. HoN. B. D. :MORE HEAD said he would now

move the amendment w.hich he had preYionsly read.

HnN. A. NORTOX suggested the omission from the last line of the words, "and such order shall be fin:t! and conclusi ,.e."

HoN. B. D. MOREHEAD said he wonld willingly accept the suggestion, and would pro­pose that amendment first.

Arnendn1ent agreed to; previous a1nendment agreed to ; and clause, as amended, put and passed.

HoN. A. H. BARLO\V : Before proceeding with the next clause he desired to moYe a new clanse to deal with the matter which had been raised upon clause 9. He proposed that clause !l should be left in the Bill, and the following new clause inserted :-

Any person who might ha Ye been admitted to exami­nation under the :J.:Iedical Act of 1~67 or the .Pharmacy Act of lSS·L on or before the :3rd Deecmber. l;:i8i'. may apply to the board for admission to such examination at any time within two years after the passing of ti;tis ~~et, and the board ~hall adm1t snch person to examnmtwn under the Act, and if sath:fied as to bis fitnefl.s shall place his name on the register. The clause did not s:1tisfy him, but the Hon. ::VIr. Thynne a'sured bim that that was all that could be don''·

The SECHETARY :B'OR PUBLIU IN­STHL'CTIO~ had no objection to the clause, which was very reasonable.

Clause put and passed. Clause 19 passed with consequential amend­

ments . . On cla;;se 20-" Exceptions to friendly socie­

ttes, etc. -The SECRl£TAHY FOR PUBLIC IN­

STRUCTION moved the inaertion of the follow­ing new paragraph:-

(iv.) Any joint stock company, if and so long as the majority and at least three of the directors of ~uch company are pharmaceutical chemists, and no part of the name of such company comprises the name of any verson who is not a pharmaceutical ch?mist ::nd a director of the company at the date of 1ts registra­tion.

HoN. A. H. BARLOW said tJ.1e principle of the amendment was that people were not to put their money into joint stock companies for pharmaceutical purposes u~less tbre~ of r.be directors were pharmaceutical chem1sts. HA was of opinion that so long as they employed duly qualified persons it was quite enough, n,nd he objected to the prohibition of capital being put into the business of pharmacy on such terms.

Phan.zacy Bill. · [20 N OVE.MBE.R.] Plwr;;zacy Bi1l. HJ3l

He would give a case in point. The directors of the (~ueensland ·woollen Company were printers, etorekerpers, and prnduce merchants. They knew nothing about woollen goods and die stuffs; they relied upon their skilled €mployees.

Hox. A. J. CARTER thought the suggestion of the Hon. :!\Ir. Barlow was diametrically opposed to one of the main principles uf the Bill, which was to provide against people who were not qualified trading under other people's nan1es.

Hox. A. H. BARLOW was afraid he bad not marlP himself understood. It took seven people under the Companies Act to form a limited liability company. Suppose seven hon. gentle­ment put clown £1,000 each and registered themselves as the Brisbane Drug Company, why should they not do it? They must not call themselves "J'.Iurray, Barlow, and Company, Limited," but they must employ in the conduct of the business duly qualified pharmaceutical ehemists.

HoN. W. V. BHO\VX said that as a business man be thought it would be a mistake to insist upon three of the directurs of a company being pharmaceutical chemist". Directors did not manage details; they looked after the finances of a company, and he thought it would be a mis­take to insist on the provision moved by the Minister.

HoN. A. H. BARLOW moved the omission Df tbo word' "the majority, and at least three of the directors of such company are pharmaceutical .chemists, and. n

Hox. \V. V. BROvV"" : It was quite ev1dent that even if a company owned a drug business it

must be carried on under a properly [7'30 p.m.] qualified chemist. A company could

not be formed and carried on by people who knew nothing whatever of the busi­ness. The directors did not manage businesse" of that or any other kind themselves, and it would be jusc as absurd to say that the directors of a railway company >houlcl all be mechanical engineers as that cl1rectors of drug companies should all be chen1isrs. The directors were merely t be business administrators.

"HON. A. NORTON bad known companies, .such as that suggested by the Hon. Mr. Barlow, to be carried on elsewhere, and if that could be clone outside the colony why should they not be carried on here? If a company was so formed it must have" regist<'recl chemist to supervise the compounding of drugs, and if he left the employ of the company then another ph•rmaceutical ehemist must be appointed. There was nothing to prevent a man having a bill of st>le over a business carried on by a pharmaceutical chemist, and the business could still be carried on, the nominal owner being in the same relation to the mortgagee as the manager of a company would be to his directors. ·• HoN. A. ,J. UARTER said that be drew the line between a company which was a purely commer­cial concern and an association formed for the protemion of the public health, and for that reason be did not think the limitation that the Hon. Mr. Barlow pruiJosecl would be <et all clesirithle. It was decidedly in ! he interests of the public health tbt>t there should be someone who was absolutely interested in the busine"' of a drug company personally controlling it. \Vhat would be thought of a medical society being started in Brisbane by persons outside the medical profession who controlled the person appointed to manage it? The rights of all the individuals who bad money involved in chemists' businesses were conserved by subsection 3 of clause 20, and there was no fear of any harm accruing to any persons who in vested their money in that way.

HoN. W. V. BROW:'\ thought that the next clause provided that a pharwaceutical chemist should be connected with every btminess of the kind which bad been mentioned.

HoN. W. F. TAYLOR said that ordinary conn11erci;l principles dirl not ctpp\y in case>< of that kind. :::luppose a number of people furmed a company for the purpose of selling drugs. It was thoroughly 11nderotoucl that drugs differed very much in purity and cost. Some houses sup­plied a line of drugs nt a much cheaper rate than others, and it was to the interests of tlw public that they should get the I >e<tdrug<. l t wa' further to the interest~ of the 1mblic tnat no curnpany of that sort should be managed by persons who did not under,tand their lmsiness. If that was not the case it would be possible for a lot ot young fellows who bad failed to pass the examination of the board to tancl togetiJ<er "ncl run a drug shop on th~ cheapest ljnes l'""sible, quite irrespecci ve of the health of the public. Thert> \Vus something rrwre than comn1ercial principles to be looked at in a ca<e of that kind, and be thought in the interest of the public they could not ~upervise compP.nies of that :-.ort too much. It was a special c<1se, for which •pecial legishttion was required.

Hox. A. H. BARLOvV: The argument of the hon. gentlem»n amounted to this : that pbarma­centical chemists working for tbemselvc~ would never keep inferior drugs in stt>ck, but the medical men knew who wer,, the good chemists and who were the bt>d. He trusted tbe amend­ment would be accepted .

Amendment agreed to. Hox. A. H. BARLO\V moved tlv1t the words

"and a director of the company at the date of its regi:,tration " be vmitted.

Amendment agreed to. Arnendment, as arnended, pnt and passt-·tl. On the motion of the ~ECRJ<iTARY FOR

PUBLIC INSTRUCTION, the word "com­pany'' was inserted after ''society," on line 2G.

The SEOliETARY FOR Pl.JBLIC IX­STRUCTlON moved a similar atHenclment un line 31.

HoN. A. H. BARLOW asked what was the meaning of the words "any person aiciing or abetting in such wciety." lt otruck him that anyone who went into one of thosP illeg>~l shop• and bought a pennyworth of pills would be " aidinK and abetting." \Vould it not be desir­able to leave out that subsection?

The SECKETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION said that usu>tl phraseology had been used. Any person who assisted in carrying on an illegal action was regarded as aiding and abetting it.

HoN. A. NORTON would like to know to whom those word• t>pplied ? \V ould they apply to a boy who carried medicine o:.Jt of the shop? Surely the words were noL necessary. There wa~ sufficient protection to the public without inserting a wretched little paragraph like that, which he would move the orrmsion of.

The SECRETARY FOR Pl"BLIC IN­STJ:tUCTIO"" said he bad no objection to the omi8sion of the paragraph, and with that view would ask permission to withdraw his amend­ment.

Amendment withdrawn. HoN. A. NORTON moved the omission of the

last paragraph-Any perRon aiding Ql' abetting any .o;,v.ch society or

person in any such offence shall be liable to a penalty not exceedmg twenty pounds.

Awendment agreed to; and clause, as amended, put and passed.

193:2 Pharmacy Bill. L:COU.XCIL.J Pharmacy Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC I-'\­i::lTRUCTION moved the insertion of the following new clause to follow clause 20:-

Save as by this Act h; otherwise provided, it shall not be lawful for any person, firm, corporation. joint stock company, or society to carry on the business of a pharmaceutical chemist under any per~onal or firm name other than the name or names of the pharma<~f'U­tical chemist or chemists carrying on the ~aid business, or under any title or sign, unless the name or names of such pharmaceutical chemist or chemists with the addition of the word "11roprietor" or " proprietors'' is or are also legibly set forth in conjunction with the name, title. m· sign of the busint'"'s in eYery signboard, label, invoice, or other document in which such name, title, or sign is or are used in or in conneetion with the business.

Any person, firm, corporation, company, or socie~y carrying on business contrary to the provisions of this section shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding twenty pounds, antl to a further penalty not exceeding ten pounds fol' every day during ·which the offence is con­tinued after conviction.

HoN. A. H. BARLO\V moved as an amend­ment Lhe omission of the word "such," and the insertion of the word "the."

Amendment agreed to. HoN. A. H.- BARLO\V mm-ed the omis­

sion of the words " with the addition of th~ word ' proprietor' or 'proprietors,' " with the view of inserting the words " who are the actual proprietors, managers, or superintendents of such business with the addition of the word 'manager' or 'n1anagers.'"

Amendment agreed to ; and new clause, a"' amended, put and passed.

Clauses 21 to 2i5, inclusive, pnt and passed. Clause 2ti- ''Board may make by-laws"-paci'ed

with consequential amendments. HoN. A. H. BARLO\V moved the following

new clause to follow clause 2fj :-·

If any order made by the l\Iinister upon appeal i~ not obeyed by the board within one month from the making thereof, the ~nnister may publish such order in the Gazette; and upon SlJCh publication such order slmll ha''e as full force and effect. and all conseqnenees shall ensue, as if it had been obeyed hy the board.

That would save the chemist who had been refused registration the expense of going to the Supreme Court. If the :Minister made an order, and it was not obeyed, he would then ,·irtually register the applicant himself. It was necessary that the Minister should have some means of enforcing his decisions.

The :S};CR~TAUY FOR PUBLIC IN­S'l.'RUCTIOX: The clause seemed to him some­what drastic, and would give the Minister ab,olute control.

HoN. A. H. BARLO\V: Certainly, that was what was intended. The pharmacist applied to be registered ; the board refused; an appeal was made to the 1\Iinister, who ordered the rtgilltra­tion, and the hoard still refuoed to regioter. \V hat was the nfinister to do if the board refused to take any notice of his decision ? The clause simply allowed him to enforce his decision, and surely a Minister of the Crown, elected by the people, should be above a board. If the board did not do its duty it must be made to do it.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IX­STRUCTION : It appeared to him that when a candidate w<ts refused registration on the grnund of not passing the examination, the Minister would be em powered under the clause to force him through, whether he was qualified or not. If a person passed the necessary examination, he would not r~quire to appeal to the Minister.

HoN. A. H. BARLOW pointed out that under the 11th clause the Loard might refuse registra­tion, and the person concerned then might appeal to the i\Iinister, but that did not affect his right of appeal to the Supreme Court.

HoN. W. V. BHOWN : Suppose the board declined to register, and there was an appeal to

the Minister. The 11inister might direct the board to register the applicant, and if he did, could the board appeal to the Supreme Court?

Hon. A. H. BARLOW : X o. HoN. \V. V. BRO\VN : \Vhat was the uoe of

giving the right of appeal to the court if the Minister could take it away? He could imagine a case in which it might be necessary for the board to appeal to the court.

HoN. A. H. BARLOW : In no part of the Bill was there any provision for the board appeal­ing to the court. It was the injured person who had the right of appeal. The board might say, " You shall not come into our corporation." \Vhy ;should they be allowed to use all the power of their society to crush a man?

HoN. A. J. CARTER rather thought the hon. g-entleman took an extreme view of the case. The board represented tbe public, and acting in the interests of the pubi!c they might consider it necessary to refuse reg1strat1on to a candidate. \Vhy shr,uld they he forced, perhaps throug-h political inflner:ce, to regrster _a man who had shown his unfitness to be regrstered? The amendment would place the board in rather an unfair position.

HoN. A. H. BARLOIV: The hon. gentleman assumed that the board existed for the protec­tion of the public. His view was that it existed for its own protection and to_ ke_ep out competi­tion. It acted on the same prmcrple upon whwh the publican voted for the lccal option resolution that no new licenses be granted. He merely proposed that the Minister should have a rough and ready wav of enforcing his decisions.

Ho:>. A. KOHTO:"\ did not see how the 1Iinister's orders were to be enforced unless some power of that kind was gi.-en.

HoN. \V. F. TAYLOR: ThH clause certainly placed enormous powers in the. hands of the Minister which he did nut thmk should be placed ir; the hands cf any ind_ividual. It_ was a mistake that he shnuld be aiJie to overnde the board at his own eweet will.

HoN. A. H. BARLO\Y: \Vhat was the use of giving the Minbter power tu make an order unless he could enforce it?

HoN. W. ]f. TAYLOR: Of course anyone could be put upon the register under that clause. It restt<l entirely with the Minister. The 1\Iinister had power enough over the bo:trd through the fact that he could with~raw t_he subsidy if they did not perform the1r dutres properly.

HoN. A. NOR TON: All through the Bill there was the right of appeal to the ~linister­They had amended clause 11, and pronded that the order of the Minister must be obeyed. Surely they knew what they were doing then? If he made an order it was only reasouable that he should be given power to enforce it.

HoN. W. V. BROWK: \Vhen they amended clause 18 thev carefully provided for an ultimate appeal to the Supreme. Uourt. If the Hon. Mr. Barlow's amendment was carried, they would prevent that appeal in certain cases, as the Minister would be the final court of appeal.

HoN. A. H. BARLOIV : The person to appeal was the aggrieved person-that was

[s·:io p.m.} the pharmacist who was otruck off the roll or was denied admission.

Such person had the right of appeal _to the :Minister and if the Minister agreed wrth the decision ~f the Pharmacy Board it was provided that he should have the right of appeal to the Supreme Court. If the Minister differed from the board and said the appellant ought to be registered, and the board obstinately refused to register him, then the new clause empower_ed the Minister to write the appellant's name m the register himself. Why should an assembly of gentlemen incorporated under this Bill have the

Pastoral Holdings [20 NovEMBER.] lYew Leases Bill. 1933

right of appeal from a Minister of the Crown who was supposed to have the confidence of Parlia­ment? \Vhy should the board be allowed to waste their fund" iu litigation with a Minister of the Crown?

Ho:-;. A. J. CARTER : The Bill provided that in one case there must be an absolute con­viction, and that in the other due inquiry should be made before the board came to a decision to strike a chemist off the register, and yet under the amendment the Minister could come to an opposite decision on an u pnrte stateii!ent, and enforce his opinion in the mo<t arbitral'y manner in defiance of the evideuce before the board. He considered that the board should have the same right of appeal to the Supreme Court as an applicant for registration.

HoN. A. J'\ORTON: No appeal by the board was provided for in the Bill, and if hon. gentle­men desired to give the board the right of appeal, the proper way to do it would be to recommit the Bill for that purpose. He suggested that the Committee should accept the Hon. ~Ir. Barlow's amendment, and then, if they so desired, recommit the Bill in order to give the board the right of appeal.

New clause (Hon. A. H. Barlmv) put and passed.

On clause 27-" Limitation of application of Act''-

HoN. \V. F. TAYLOR moved that there be added to the clause the following new oubsec­tion :-

(3) Any homceopathic chemist.

Amendment agreed to; and clause, as amended, put and passed.

Postponed clau·e 9-" Persons entitled to be registered"-put and passe<!.

The Council resumed,; "ne! the CHAIR3IAN re­pmted the Bill with amendments.

The report was adopted, and the third reading of the Bill was made an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

PASTORAL HOLDINGS NEW LEASES BILL.

SECOND REAI>ING.

The SECRETARY FOR P'C'BLIO I::\'­BTRUCTIOX: As the hour is late I shall not detain the House very long <Wer what I have to say on this very important Bill. As hon. gentle­men are aware, the object of the Bill is in a great mea·.ure to render some assistance and encouragement to the pastoral tenants of the Crown who have suffered severely in the past from drought, ticks, rabbits, and other plagues. The drought in particular has placed the pas­toral industry in this country in a very deplnr­able condition, and it has been recognised that it is desirable and fair that something should be done to assist the pastoral tenants to recoup themselves for the great losses sustained by the drought. In the yeor 1R94 we had something like 7,000,000 head of cattle in (,.\ueensland, while to-day the Registrar-General says we have a little over one-half that number. In 189± we had close on 20,000,000 sheep in the colony, and the last returns show that that number has diminished to about b,OOO,OOO. These losses are felt very severely, and a great number of our best men and pioneers have been ruined by the great trc,ubles they have had to undergo. I am sure that hon. gentlemen will admit that if there is any one section of the community desBrving of encouragement and assistance, it is the men who are Pngaged in carrying on the pastoral industry in this State, seeing the lives thev have led, the hardships they have had to undergo, and the great troubles they have endured in carrying on their industry.

The very least that Parliament can do for them under these trying circumstances is to place our land laws in a better position than they are at present; and offer the pastoral tenants an extension of their leases, at the same time making ample provision for the requirements of closer settlement. I think this Bill will be iound to provide for all those requirements. One of the featureB of the measure is that the Land Court shall have power to classify all the various runs in the colony, and that a lease shall be given to the pre,;ent tenant in accordance with that classifiLation. Clause 4, which deals with this subject, provides that-

(1.) Snch holdings shall he classified according to the new lease which may be granted with Tespect thereto, namely:-

Clas3 I.-A new lease for the term of ten years of one-half of the hLlld comprisetl in the holding at a rent to he fixed by the court.

Class II.-A uew lease for the term of fourteen years of two-thirds or the whole of the htnd com­pri~ed in the holding as the conrt may determine, at a rent to be fixed by the court and to be reassessed at the expiration of the tirst seven years of the term.

Cht::-s I £I.-A new lease for the term of t'Yentv-one years of three-fourths or th 9 whole ot the' land comprised in the holding, as the Court may de­tcrmin•,, at a rent to be fixed by the Court and to be re-asses::;ed at the expiration of each period of scyen years of the term.

Class IY.-A new lease for the term of twenty-eight yeal'S of the whole of the land comprised in the holtling, at a rent to be fixed lF the Conrt and to be re-assessed at the e-xpiration of each period of seven years of the term.

Chss IV. will embrace all the lands in the far \V estern clbtrict outside the schedule area, and outside the operation of the Land Act of 1884, and I think it will be recognised that those lands will not be likely to be required for close settle­ment during our time at "11 events. From the expErience which we have had of the climatic conditions of the far \V estern districts of Queens­land, it is generally recognised that they are not suited for close settlement. Moreover, a great deal of that land is practically deserted at the present time, and one of the objects of this Bill is to offer such inducements to pastoral tenants or other pe<>pie as will lead to the occupation of that land. It is in the interest of the country that that land should be occupied, even if it is leased on extended terms, and at very moderate rentals. But it will be found that ample provi­sion is made in the Bill for supplying all possible demands for close settlement. 'l'here are a number of runs which have baen htlcl under fifteen years' leases, and those leases having expired the chances are that they will not be renewed. The bulk of those lands is in the coaAtal districts, and it will probably be required for closer settlement, and it will be used for that purpose. However, it will be the duty of the Land Court to inspect and re[K>rt upon each of those runs, and if they are not required for close settlement, a new lease will he !"ranted to the present owners. 'fhe runs in re,pect of which the fifteen years' leases have expired are :-In the Darling Downs district : \Vieambilla, held by the late les,ee under occupation license at slightly reduced rent-no demand for settlement; \Vornbo Forest, held by late lessee under occu­pation license at same rent as under lease-no demand for settlement. Leichhardt: Moclewarra No. 2, held by late lessee under occupation license at same rent as under lease-no demand for settlement; Crescendo, held by late lessee under occupation license at same rent as under lease-no demand for settlement; l<~merald Downs, held by late lessee under occupation license at same rent as under lease-part being opened for agricnltnral .selection; Emerald Downs South, held by late lessee under

1934 Pastoml Holdings (COUNCIL.] JYew Leases Bill.

occnpation license at eame rent as under lease ~-p~rt being opened for agricultural selection; Ludwif!", not taken under occupation license­available area being opened ~ for seh·ctioa. Niarano~<: :vrount Plea<ant, held bv late lessee nnder occupation license at slightly reduced rent-no denmnd for settlement. Burnett : Mondure, helct by late les;ee nnrler occupation licenRe at. satoe rent as under !Rase-part being opened for selection, n•rt reserved for timber. North Kennedy: The. Bluff, not taken under occupation license. \Varrego: Victoria D·,wns, not taken under occupation license-com­missioner':-\ recnmn1endation for opening for selection postponed pending reply to inquiry as to whether lessee has abandoned the country as reported; Gowrie, held under occupation licen,'3e at sarne rental aR under lPase­no recommendation for <•pening. Those are the lands the leases of which have expired, and will be dealt with if there is no demand for close 'ett lement. 1f there is no such demand the lease' will be e;ra.nterl to the present occupants for ten years. Under clauoe 5-

The proportion of the holding- to be included in the re~nmed part shall be determined according to its classHica tion as fo llm\·s : ~

(cl'! If the hohling is elnssed in Class I., one-haif is to br. included;

(b1 If the hoWillg is f'lassed in Class II., one-third is to be included;

(c' If the holding i~ classed in Class IlL. one-fonrth i" to be included. ,

Then follow provi,ions as to the mndE' of making the dh-ision. There is a very wholesome pro­vision in clause 8 which, I think, hon. gentlemen will approYe of by which encouragement is giYen to lessees to prevent t.he spread of the prickly pear. It is here provided that-

In CYery lea;;;-~ grnntcd under the provi~ions of this Aet the fo11owi.ng covenant shall be implied on the part of the lf-.::~ce-. thnt is to say :-rrha(. the lessee will not at any time (lnrinr:· the cnrrency of tbe lease cause er permit pric1dy pe:ir to increase in gtowth 01 extent upon any r ~rt of the land eomprised in the lease.

That i.-; a very desirable t.bing. If this pest j, to be deait with at all it can only be dealt with by the leiisees who hold the land, and encourage­ment ~houid be gi,·en to them to do so either in the shan•; qf a reduction of rent or an extension of temire. No lease should be granted to any tenant unless it contains a covenant that the less• e shali keep the country clc,an, provided he got it clean in the first instance. Clause 1-1 giHs the holder of a pastoral lease, if his country should be selected, the priority of taking up a section, and clau.se liS provides for nn exchange of land. \Vith regard to land available for settlement I may state that in the J\fitchell district alone, which is first-class pastoral country, there will be no less than 31,000,000 acres so available between now and 1\.JlO. Those land~ will fall in in rotation year bv year up to l!llO. In every res re et, ample provision has been made for clnse settlement. \Vhere there is good country, with ample rainfall, very few of the leases will be renewed to the present owners. On such country close settlement will be encour­aged. :From experience we have had of late years, there will, I think, he less desire to encourage close settlement in the \Vest.ern country than there was prior to the late drought. \Vhen I travdled over that country, I could not help coming to tl-;e conclusion that even in good times it was not adapted for c]oRe or •gricnl­tural settlement, and tbe opinion I then formed has h;en fully borne out by what has followed. It would be almost criminal to encourage agricultural settlement in regions where the rainfall is so limited. It is to the coastal districts we have to look for close settlement. The Western district is more fitted for grazing

farm settlement, where in many places the20,000-acre limit is altogether too small. I have always held the opinion that it is not the area of the land a man possesses that counts, but how much be ean do with it. If a man can carry 10,000 sheep nn 20,000 acres he is all right; but in many cases 60,000 or RO,OOO am·es will not carry 10,000 sheep. The factor to be considered is the carrying capacity of the land, and a selector should hrwe sufficient country to carry something like 10,000 sheep. To one featur0 in our land legislation I have never been able t0 reconcile myself, and that is the absolute restriction pnt upon a mRn who engages in agricultural or pastoral pursuits. In no other occupation is hie enterprise limited. A merchant can extend his business to any pos­sible extent, but the moment, a man turns his attention to the occupation of land he is told he may p0:5sess a given nun1ber of acres and no 1nore.

Hon. A. H. J3AHLOW : The area of a' ail able land is not unlimited.

Tbe S1WRETARY J;'OR PUBLIC IK­STRUCTIOK: I think a man who has sufficient enterprise and ability t.o carry on an extensive bueiness, even as a sheep farmer, sbould have no limit set in his enterprise.

Hon. A. KmtTOX: \Vhat has that to do with this Bill?

The SECRETAHY FOR PUBLIC IK­STRUCTION: \Vel!, I noticed tha·t in nnother place they discuosed the entire land legislation 'Jf the colony under cover of this Bill, from the homestead selector to the pastoralist. It is des1rable that tbe discussion should take a wide field, because the occup:>.tion of the land is of the utmost importance to the country. It is the mv,in object of thi" Bill to see, first, that the lands of the country are occupied, and then to give the occupier scnne encouragement, eith(_·r by reduced rent or incre:J~ed ten11re, to remain in occupation. I feel sure the Bill will commend its· U to hon. gentlemen. It is, perhaps, the most important measure that has been snbmittecl to the Conncil during thi8 session, and I do not think we are likely to have a Bill of equal importance .submitted to us again. I need say no more on the second reading. The merits or rlemerits of the Bill can be better brought out in commit! ee, and I will conclude by m<l\ ing that the Bill be no"· rPad a second time.

I:Iox. A. NORTOK: 1 htwe occupied a seat in Parlian1ent a great rnany Yf\trs, and I n1nst say that nev~r until this eYening have I seen any­thing to compare with what we have gone through. For hours we have been fiddling away at a wretched claH' Bill, which has been amended and re-amended until we hardly know how it <tands--and in all probability it wiil be kicked out in another place-and now we are a'ked, at 9 o'clock at nie;ht, tn take the second reading of the most important measure which has been brought forward or is likely to be brought forward this session. \V e are asked to discuss a measure of vast importance to a large number of person,, settled in the colcmy, when there is a bare quorum present, if even that. Is it possible, under such circumstances, to engage in a fair discussion on the merits of the Bill? The Minister said that because in another place they discussecl every phaee of the land question uncler cover of this Bill, there­fore we ought to do so here, and talk about the areas that should be allowed to selectors of all kinds. There is nothing in the Bill about areas. It <lea1s wi'h leases, and we had better stick to them. At the outset 0f my remarks, I would like it to be distinctly understood that as far as I am personally concei'ned I have severed my connection with pastoral watters a ]together. I po:,sE-RH less than an acre of land in the whole country. I have a broken-down old horse which a friend of mine has given me as a pensioner, and

Pastora1 Hold1:ngs [20 N OVEMllEll.] New Leases Bi1l. 19::!5

I have two sheep. That is what I represent in the pastoral line. If the same provision had been rrmde .smne time ago, when the leases in the settled districts were about to expire, as is made m, I think, clause 15 of this Bill, enabling the lessee to take up a selection, I might h :we t:tken ad vanta~e of it and retained an interest, in the pastoral line. But "e could do no~hin~·. \Ye lived there a great many years, mvested thousands or pounds in pastoral pursuits, and I suppose n1ost of us went out when our leases had expired in a worse financial position than when we came here. At least that was my experience. After doing all we could to civilise and settle the district in which we lived, after -etting an example of industry, and thought when there was very little to save, anybody who chose to apply for a selec­tion was put on the same equality with us and given the same rights, and I myself declined to have anything to do with the matter at all. 'l'he hon. gentleman pointed out that there ha' been a very large decr,'ase in the number of cattle and sheep during the last few yPars, and he attributed it to the drought, the tickb, and other cames. One cause he did not mPntion, and that was the illiberality of the Govern­ment towards the pastoralists on the coastal districts when their leases bad expired. Most of u.s-I believe I was the first--spayed our cows, with the result of taking awav from the herds of the colony a gred.t nnmber ,;f breeders. Those co.ttle were fattened up. If we had been treated with a little more consideration, the prohahility is that the din1inntion in the nurnber of cattlP would not have beeP so gl'eat as it now is. With regard to the \Vestern districts, I have a knowledge extendin~· over fifty ye~rs. Before I came to Queensland I travelled through many districts in western New South \Vales, where the country is Vel y sitnilar in many re­spects t.n the South-western portion of Queen.sland. f'he rc·,ult was that I made up my mind, knnw­mg what nnght l.Je read by those who cared to read vf the visitations of drouQhts in thnt uortinn of the colon,v, and knowing the severit,y' of the weather which was experienced when I was there, ,.nd which Wollld fall very sev'erely on individuals if the country was stocked up, 'that the \Ve.<tern districts would never induce me to ilwest nJy capital. I could hav'e got countrv on the Darling which a few years afterward~' was selling for a very high price indeed, bnt I ne1 er rec;l!y entertained the thollght of settling there. lecause l knew that in all probability whe.t ho.d happened there before would happen there :cgain, and that I would be hunted out by drought. 'fhe men who have made monev by pa.,toral pmsuits in the W eBtem districts 8Hpeclal1y, and in other districbt, have been men who in every instance have sold out when there W'1s a boom, and it has been their unfortnnate successors who have suffered the lo-.s. Knowing all that, and being ac­quainted with many persons connected with the pastoral industry, I must say I have always felt the deepest sympathy for those men who hav.· suffered so severely for so many years past. I know n;en at the present time who are prac­tically ruined, and who a few years ago were well-to-do or wealthy men. \Vh>1t is to become of those poor fellows ? The Bill proposes to give them an extension of their lea,es. Of course that is something, but they have lost so much of their stock that they cannot stock t:p half the country, and therefore they are not hkely to reap any great. benefit from the Bill. Having c.hcussed the Bill with those who are largely interested in the Western districts, I undertilok, after consideration, to propose certain amendments when the Bill got into committee, and copies of these have been circulated. They

are not v-ery important. \\'e felt that it was undesirable to propose amendments which, if they were carried here, were likely to be rejected in another place. Although there are nmny pastoralists who would like to f<Pk for a great deal, it would be very bad policy to ask for more than they are likely to get. 1 cannct go at length into these amendments to-night, be­cause the hour is too late, and I repeat that it is a great mi.stake to have delayed the :;econd read­ing, and wasted time over a rubbishy Pharmacy Bill. I feel infinitely disgusted that we :;hould have been treated in r hi" way. There is one thing I should like to ask the T\Iinister, and that is whether we are to be supplied with maps showing the schedule, in order that we may know what we are about?

The SJ<Ol<ETARY FOR PcBLIC b:~TRCCTIO:); : Yes, they will be supplied.

HoN. A. ~ORTOK : Tne amendments which I intend to pr< •pose. do not refer to the length of tht leases, because I believe in another place the feeling- of rnembers 'vas not in favour of further extending the leases, but I propose in ,ome ca,es where the lea~es expne wjthin a few ye~ars, and where the lessees wrll be placed at a very great disadvantage in comparison with those who have longer lea8es, tu a'3k thJ-t larger area of country should be allowed to them. \\'ith respect to thf· prickly pear section, does the T\Iinister re"lly think that it will be any encouragement tn the psstoral lf·,sees? \Ye have already dealt with one Prickly Pear Bill thi., session, and rumour says that we are to have another proposed by the Government, and it seems to me that by the time w~ have finished we shall h 1ve some rather complicated laws dealing with this m>~tter. \Vith respect to section 8, I point out that the unfortunate people who hav·e been bnnrd tu kePp down prickly pt'ar will have to eonsider when they take up their runs that. a grerrt de, 1 of land is included in their boundarie· which is regarded as 1mavailable. It is of no use to them, bnt in future tt1ey will have to pay for it. Of eonrse the r<ssum pii::m is that they will get the whole of the run at "' h~sser rate per square nlile, and so re.duce the rent to about what would be payable for the available countrv·. It mu"t l>e cemem­bored that. these unavailable scrubs are filled with pricklv lJear, at1d what with the ~crub nwgpie, and Pmn, and other means of distributing the seed, the pest wiil soon spread to the clean country. I h"pe that clause:-; will be cut out of the Dill altogether. I intell!i to propo>e a small amendment in it., but will afterwards <·ndea,·our· to induce the Council to throw it out. There is oneotherimpnrtant amendment which I wiil refer to. It is contended by co:1nsel for the Lands Department, :'\Ir. \Vil>on, that. when a portion nf a run is resumed after the first divisioTL, the law which binds the court. a1; thnt division does not apply. Therefore, the resumutil•n may be made on any part of the run, in any shape, and witlwut any regard to the pastoralist's con­venience. That may )Je the proper interpreta­tion of the Act, but I think anybody who has a desire to help these men who have suff•red so rnuch, win see the reasona!Jleness of asking that where lrwd has been resumed :>fter the firet division has been made, the same rule which was brought into operation on the first occasion ehould apply to subsequent divi8ions. That is really one of the most important amendments I propose to move. I will not take up the time of the OouriCil any further, but I do hope that under the conditions "hich the pastoralisc' are experiencing just now, every help will be given to these unfortunate men who have lost so heavily. I do not know what the stock returns are, but I am quite sure that the number of stock left on the runs which have suffered so much from drought is so small that it will be

1936 Pastoral Holdings [ASSEMBLY.] jSew Leases Bill.

very bard for the pastoralists to realise any­thing like the profit which they would have made in a good season, and they cannot buy stock to replace those which are gone. The worst feature of the whole thing is that at the present time the drought is not ended. \V e know that in some of the \V est ern parts of thE' country as near in as Roma the cuuntry ha• dried up very rapidly. The herbage which sprung up after the rain was quite 3ufficient at the time, but it will not last through the hot weather. In a few In.onths it is done, a,nd if rain doed not come in suffictent quantities to bring on the gras" then the losses will continue to be as heavy in the future as they ha Ye been in the past. It is no use facing this matter as one of anything but the most serious importance. Some of my best friends have been completely crippled, and some have been absolutely ruined, and I suppose it is the same with other people's frienrls. I would like to say with regard to the amendment,; which I shall propose, that they are very moderate, and I hope members of the Council will assist me in getting them acce[Jted. I said at the out­set of my speech that I had no intet .,t whatever in pa.storal properties. I think I should correct myself and say that I have legal interest. I am the lessee of one run, and the owner by law of a large freehold pr,perty which stands in my name, but I have no more personal interest in either of these than any member of the Council. I simply hold them as trustee, and they are put into my name in order that I may be able to deal with them more effectively. I say, in conclusion, that knowing intimately what has taken ylace during the last few 0 ears, I have the deepest sympathy with those who have suffered so much. The relief which has been offered has been a long time coming, and I only hope that every assistance will be given to the pastoralists which hon. gentlemen can see their way to offer.

HoN. W. V. BROW X: As it is probable that this debate may be adjourned until Tuesday, and as I may not be "ble to be present, I would like to say a few words to-night. The ~Iinister, in introducing the Bill, gave very good reasons why this Council should take into favourable con­sideration the relief promised to the pastoralists, and in the course of his speech he drew the attention of members to the very gr0ctt difference between la.nds in the settled districts and those out in the extreme \V est. From personal know­ledge I can certify to the correctness of that state­ment, and can assure hon. members that 7,000 acres m \Vest ::\Ioreton is far more profitable than 70,000 acres in the vicinity of \Vinton or Boulia. That is my firm conviction. In dealing with a measure of this kind, hon. members should bear in ntind that one of the most importe.nt things in the way of assisting the pastoralists is not to re-trict them to the smaller areas which would be perfectly reasonable under different conditions in other parts of the colony. The further \Vest men go the larger area they require. The Hon. :!Ylr. Xorton mentioned that he was going to propose some amendments. I am sure they will be reasonable, and I sincerely hope the Council ,,•ill allow them to pass if they are im­provements on the n'easure. There is one very important matter I would like to mention. It is a well-known fac·, and there is no breach of con­fidence in mentioning it, that a very large pro­portion of pastoral properties in Qneensland are mortgaged to financial institutions or banks. The state of the law which compels the regis­tration of these properties in the names of those institution, is rather unfortunate, because it, gives a large majority of the people of the colony the impression that the properties are la~gely owned by banks and absentee capitali~ts. That is not so. I would suggest to the Govern-

ment, whenever they haveanopportunity, to make some alteration in the law which will enable these properties to remain in the names of the owners, as can be done in the case of selection under the Land Act. There is a provision by which mortgages can be given without the estate being put into the name of the financial insti­tution making the advance. The alteration should be made in the intere"'t of the pastor a list, because a great deal of harm is unnecessarily done through the faet that these properties stand in the names nf absentee capitalists. It must of necessity be the case that large sums are advanced upon pastoral holdings, for very few people are able to purcllase them unless they can get monetary a:;sistance. \Veil, just now the )Jastoralists have sutfered very severe losses, and in many cases it happens, unfortunately, that some of the leases have very short terms to run. Consequently the lhsees cannot recoup their losses, or restock their country, unless the Government place them in a po,ition to get new leases with an i111proved tenure. Outside capitalists will not advance monEy unless there is a fairly good tenure. If a lu,se is about to expire, it is not the least use <'oing to a bank or financial institution and ~sking for an advtmce. So that if we want to put the pastoralists in a position of recon,truct­in~ their estates and recouping their los:se-;, we will have to give them a lease which they can otfer by way of security to the people who a"'sist them. The :Minister and the Hon. Mr. Norton mentioned the severe losses which had been sustained during the last drought. That is a matter of history. \Ve know it to be a fact. I happen to have the management of certain

sta.tions for an English cmnpany, [9·30 p.m.] and I know personally how severe

their lo~ses have been through the drought. Fortunately for them one or two of their stations are in a very remote part of the colony, and tbey have long leases for: th_ose ,;tations, and they ho,ve the hope that m tune they may reconp their losses; but that does not apply to <tll their stations, some being situated in the settled districts, where they have scarcely any tenure, and where they look forward to the prospect of having to remove their stock within a very short period. In fact, in one case they have commenced selling their stock. I should like to mention that although the owner" are in that position, and have actually con,menced to remove their stock, there is not the slightest disposition on the part of the Crown to reduce their rent. Indeed I quite expect that at the next Land Court the rent will be increased, notwithstanding the fact that the leases have almost expired, and that it is almost a certainty that the lessees will have to remove their stock. I mention that to show that, however much dis­posed the Government may he to give favour­able consideration to the pasturalists, they are not inclined to reduce their rents. The Hon. Mr. Norton has intimated that he will have a few amendments to propose in committee on this Bill. I also have one or two amendments which I should like to commend to the favourable consideration of the Council. iYiy amendments will deal with grazing farms. I have never yet been able to understand why when a lease ex­pires and a certain portion of country is re­sumed the lessee of that conntry is not allowed to take up a grazing farm on that country. Anybody else can come along and select a grazing farm, but the pastoralist cannot do so. That is not just. Ther0 is a very good reason why a pastoral lessee should be allowed to take up a grazing farn, on re·mmed country which he has previously held under lease. Suppose a pastoralist had erected a woolshed or some other valnable improvement on a tract of country containing 100,000 acres ; that improvement is

Fasto1'al Holdings, Etc., Bill. [20 .KovEMEER.J Mining Act Amendment Bill. 1937

suitable for the 100,000 acres, and if the part of the holding on which that valuable improve­ment is situated is resumed, and the lessee is allowed to take up grazing farms there, his in,provement will still be of use to him for a number of year<, but. if, unfortunately, thf1t portion of the land on which the improve­ment stands is taken up by a small selector, the l~c•ssee ott once loses the benefit of the improve­ment, and has to take as compensation, as far as I understand the law, the value of the improve­ment to the incoming tenant. That appears to me unjtJRt, and the injustice can be remedied by allowing the pastoralist to select a grazing farm and secure the improvement wbieh is worth so much more to him than it is to anybody else. I think it is indicated in the Act that the Crown will avoid resnming country on which valuable improvements are situated, but still there are excevtions, and under certain conditions they can take that part of a run, if it is thought necessary in the public interest. \Ve know that in all cases of re~umption the pastoral tenant c mnot get the cost of his improvements, whatever those im­provements may be. They may get something approaching the cost in isolated cases, as, for insta,nce, where a darn h«s been made and is only suitable for watering a limited area; but if the improvement is a n1nre valua.ble one, say a bore which is capa hle of watering a com-iderable area of country, the vastoralist cannot get com­pensation on the basis of the value of the bore to his old tract of country ; he can only get compensation on the basis of the value of that bore to the person who selects the particular piece of land on which it is situated. It appears to me that the suggescion which I have made is one that should be taken seriously into con­sideration, and I think the"t on clue reflection hon. gentlemen will see that there is no in­justice in allowing pastoralists to take up grazing farms on country which has been resumed from their holdings. 'It is really only giving them the opportunity of protecting Yaluable improve­m6nts. \Vhy should they not have that right as well as anybody else? Surely men who have spent ten, thirteen, or fourteen years in the country, and expended capital in developing it, and are in no better position to-day than they were when they went on the country, a8

is the case in many instances, are entitled to that privilege. Of course the pae;toralists, and those who are friends of the pastoralist, admit that when land is legitimately wanted for tLe purposes of closer settlement the pastoralists shonld give way. But I could never see the justice of taking away country from one pas­toralist merely to give it to another pas­toralist. Of course I may be tolcl that the grazing farmer pays a higher rental than the pa.storalist. I do not think he does, because the pastoralist pays rent for a large tract of country, while the grazing farmer picks out a small area of conntry-pre-,nmably he picks out the very hest part of the run, and for that he pays a high rent, and he can afford to do so. But the graz­ing farmer would not give that rent for the whole of the run. Although I am an advocate of the grazing farm system, still I feel bound to point nut that the effect of that system is that grazing farmers take up small Meas of good land, and that a great deal of land becomes useless and unprofitable to the Crown, so that in the end it will be found that the rent received does not amount in the aggregate to more than was paid by the pastoral lessee. Of course there are places in the \V est particularly suited for grazing farms, and in such places the Crown will receive a higher rent for 1 he land than was paid formerly. But that remark does not apply all over the colony. In the mixed country between the coast and the Western districts I do not

HJ01-6c

think the land will produce more rent by leasing it tn grazing farmers than it has produced in the past when nnder lease to pastoralists. Howe1 er, my argument is that pastoral lessees should be allowed, under ordinary circumstances, where close settlement will not be interfered with, to select grazing farms in the same way as anybody else. That is the direction my amendments to this Bill will take, and I hope that when they come before hon. gentlemen they will receive favourable consideration. Ho~OGilABLE GENTLE~fE:-1: Hear, hear! HoN. F. CLEWET'J': I beg to move the

adjournment of the debate. HoN. A. H. B ARLO W : May I ask the Secre­

tary for Public Instruction whether he has abandoned his idea of sitting to-morrow?

The SECRETARY POll PGBLIC lNSTRcOTION : Yes.

HoN. A. H. BARLO\V: If we sat to-morrow this debfl.te could be carried on, and e, long dis­cussion take place on the Bill, and then we could go into committee on it on Tuesday.

Hon. A. XoRTOX: To-morrow is not a sitting day.

HoN. A. H. BARLOW: }l"o, but the hon. gentleman could make it a sitting day by moving that the Council at its rising adjourn till to­n1orrow.

Hon. :F. CLEWETT: You would not get a quorum to-morrow at such short notice.

HoN. A. }l"ORTOX: To-morrow is not a sitting day, and it would not be fair to ask in a small House like this that it should be made a sitting day.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC I:X­STRUCTrO"": \Ve have a Yery small Honse now, and I know that there are a gre:'t number of members who take an interest in this Bill, and who would like to take part in the discussion. Under the circumstances I do not think it would be wise to sit to-morrow. This is tbe only measure on the busine"s-paper, a.nd we shall be able to have a full debate on it next week.

Question put and passed; and the resumption of the debate made an Order of ihe Day for Tuesday next.

MINING ACT AMENDMENT BILL. ~fESSAGE nw;,r THE AssE~IBLY.

The PRESIDEXT annonnced that he had received the following message from the As­sembly;-

Legislatiye Assembly Chamber, Brisbane, 20th November, 1901.

)ilL PREstnE~T,-'l'be Legislative Assembly having hall under consideration the mef'sage of the Ijegislative Council <latcfl the 5th instant, relative to the :\fining Act Amendment Bill. beg now to intimate that theJ-

Insisf on their disagreement to the Legislative Conn­cll's amcnclments in subsections 2, 3, 4, and 5 of clause 7, aT: cl to the addition of subsection 8, becr1H8e only the surface of the land is locked up; the miner can go underneath at such a distance from the surface as will cause no damage. At present the les:";ee of a mining lease cannot mine within fortv feet in a horizontal direction, or tifty feet in a vertical direction, from a railway line without the permission o! the Com­missioner: and. as a matter of practice, no lea:::e is granted within th1·ee chains of either side of a railway line. Beside~. if the amendment is a plea for the work­ing miner. it is improbable that such a person would be able to pay t,he cost of deviation.

And disagTee to the Legislati\·e Council's amendment in subsection 7 of clan se 7. becanse when the permit is g-ranted, the lessee should connmience the pnblic by carrying goods and pa:::;scnger& over the line.

ARTIIFR 3IORGAN, Speftker.

It was ordered that the meclSage be taken into consideration on Tuesday next.

1938 Death qf Empress of Ge;·man.1f. [ASSEMBLY.] j}fining Act Amendment Bill.

PGBLIC S:EltviCE ACT AME:'\Di.\fEl'\T BILL.

J\IESSAGE Fnmr THE AssE)IBLY.

The PRE::liDENT announced that hP. had received the following message from the As­sembly:-

Le:.dslahre A&_~embly Chamber, Brh:;baue. j()th Xovember, 1901.

l\In.. J>nEs! PK.\T,-'l'he Lt>sislatiYe J._ssembly having had. under consideration the Legislative Cmmcil's amendments iu the Public :Service ~\et Amendment Bill, l)e:'· now to intimate that they-

Aat·ee to the amendments in clause 5, with the following amendments:-

On line 4. after the '\VordR ":Executive Council," the words ··of whom not lE>s than two

shall a 11normu for the purposes of this .~et":

On line 3. o111f~ the Wt)rds "in their respective departments";

On line 8, omit the words '' earh in hi.s re~pective dep:.trtment ";

An,•qe to the amendment in clau~e 6. \Vith the tallow iug ~tmendment, viz.:-·-

Q,a it the words "term 'supernumerary worl'\ ' in­clude'·." i1ti:iat the words '·\vordH 'snpernnmerary clerical Ol' professional work' include"i

in which amendmcu1~ they invite the eoncnrrence of the Legi~lalive Council.

Ana aaree to all other amendments in tile Bill. ARTHUl\ )IORUAX,

~peaker.

It w,ts ordered that the message be taken into consideration on Tuesday next.

The Council adjourned a,t ten minute~ to 10 o'clock.