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Interview with Thelmer Bethune

July 6, 1995 Transcript of an Interview about Life in the Jim Crow South Summerton (S.C.) Interviewer: Kisha Turner ID: btvct09125 Interview Number: 1037

SUGGESTED CITATION

Interview with Thelmer Bethune (btvct09125), interviewed by Kisha Turner, Summerton (S.C.), July 6, 1995, Behind the Veil: Documenting African-American Life in the Jim Crow South Digital Collection, John Hope Franklin Research Center, Duke University Libraries. Behind the Veil: Documenting African-American Life in the Jim Crow South An oral history project to record and preserve the living memory of African American life during the age of legal segregation in the American South, from the 1890s to the 1950s. ORIGINAL PROJECT Center for Documentary Studies at Duke University (1993-1995)  

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Center for Documentary Studies at Duke University Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South

Thelmer Bethune July 6, 1995

Interviewed by Kisha Turner

Unedited Transcript by

Thelmer Bethune 2

1. Turner: ...by you just stating your whole name and when you were born.

2. Bethune: I was born in 1912, eighteenth of December.

3. Turner: And your whole name?

4. Bethune: Thelmer Bethune.

5. Turner: Where were you born?

6. Bethune: About one mile right down the road there.

7. Turner: So this area is Silver?

8. Bethune: Yeah. In other words, back then we used to get our mail from Silver. We had a

post office in Silver back then because you know we had a train running through here back

then and then we had a mail carrier come from the post office in Silver. But after the post

office went out of business then our mail now comes through Pinewood. Now my mail

comes through Pinewood. Route 2, Box 570, Pinewood.

9. Turner: Okay. What kind of work did your parents do?

10. Bethune: Farmed.

11. Turner: So what was life like when you were a child on the farm?

Thelmer Bethune 3

12. Bethune: Well, I guess, you know when I was young, it was alright. But you see my father

was farming on my granddaddy's place, my granddaddy's land. After my granddaddy, after

he died, well then he give all his children land. In other words, my granddaddy owned four

hundred and sixty-five acres of land. See my grandfather's my mother was a slave. The

slave master bought her. She was shipped away on a ship to Charleston and he said his

mother was bid off one of the bidding blocks in Charleston and then when their slave master

turned around and had two kids by his slave, my grandfather's mother, a boy and a girl. And

so see my grandfather he was born a slave but, you know, he was small. His mother worked

on the farm and after, you know, later on he got married and he worked for himself and he

raised a good bit of children and he accumulated four hundred and sixty-five acres of land.

Well, now he wouldn't know his name if it was as big as this house here on writing but he

had good ...

13. Turner: Good sense, huh?

14. Bethune: He had to because he bought four hundred and sixty-five acres of land and paid

for it.

15. Turner: Do you know how he was able to acquire the money to buy the land?

16. Bethune: He worked and saved his money. He'd buy on a credit but he worked the farm

until he finished paying for it.

17. Turner: Did he tell you any other stories about your great grandmother who was a slave?

Thelmer Bethune 4

18. Bethune: Well, he just said that his mother, when they was coming up, the old slave master

used to go to Charleston back then to buy supplies and he'd be gone a week. You know back

then you'd drive the mule and wagon all the way to Charleston. And said while he was gone

his wife, you know he had a white wife, and his wife used to beat them until they had welts

all over them when the old man was gone. They got so they could crawl right on the floor,

this old slave master made his mama take them and carry them over there and put them in the

house with him and his wife while she worked and made his wife take care of them. And

when he was gone and then she would tie their little shirts over their head and she would beat

them until they had welts over them. And then when he come back he would see the welts

on them, you know, and he would ask them who done that and they would point at his wife

and he would take her and carry her out there and take a buckskin, what they called back then

buckskin, tie her hands and put over the fence post and he would tie her dress up over her

head and he would beat her until blood run down her. And when he was gone again she

would do the same thing again. And then when he come back he would do the same thing to

her, beat her again. And then see he was a, the slave master was a Gibson and that's why my

grandfather went in as the name Gibson. And my father was a Bethune, he married, my

mother was a Gibson but my father was a Bethune.

19. Turner: So that was your mother's father?

20. Bethune: My mother's father was a Gibson, yeah. But my father was a Bethune because his

daddy was a Bethune. You see the Bethunes, they was white Bethunes, you know. Well,

when my granddaddy parented children they was, you know, a slave on my daddy's side and

so when ( ) and ( ) them then back then he said daddy said tell all of them they can change,

Thelmer Bethune 5

they can name them what name they wanted, you know. So some of them took the old slave

master and some of them changed their name to something else. And then when I grew up

then I stayed on the land where my grandfather had give his daughter, my mother, and when

I got married then I buy this place up here where I'm staying now.

21. Turner: Were your parents also from this area?

22. Bethune: Yeah.

23. Turner: Did they ever talk about what it was like when they were children in Silver?

24. Bethune: Well, my mother you know, they were raised up under their father and mother on

the farm and she said her daddy when he was coming up, raising them up, said he only had

one pair of shoes and one pants and a shirt and he would get in the bed at night, on Saturday

night, he would pull them off and get in the bed and then his wife would wash them pants

and shirt and his underwear and then Sunday morning, and she would dry it by the fire, and

then she would press them and then on Sunday morning he would get up and put them on and

he would go to church. And he said they rolled logs. You know back then the land wasn't

cleaned up, it was just woods you know and they would cut down the trees and roll them and

burn them up and they cleaned up like that. But see they worked for their daddy all the time

you know, cleaning up land.

25. Turner: What kind of crops?

Thelmer Bethune 6

26. Bethune: Used to plant cotton and corn back then. And you know the garden stuff. In other

words, what they eat practically had raised it, you know. Raised pigs and killed them. Had

to milk cows and get their own milk.

27. Turner: How far did he have to go to sell the cotton or did you all have to go?

28. Bethune: Well, there was a gin house right there at Silver and they had buyers, you know,

used to buy right there. And then sometimes my granddaddy would ship his cotton to

Charleston on the train. When I started to farming I'd gin right there to Silver and I'd sell my

cotton. They had buyers right there. And then I ginned some to Summerton, had buyers

there and I'd sell. And then I raised, a way of living, I started to raising tobacco and I carried

my tobacco to Timmonsville to the market and sell. I raised cotton and corn and tobacco and

then soybeans. But I don't farm now. I got so I couldn't get up and down on my tractor.

First I farmed with mules and then way later along in the 1940's, then I buy me a Ford

tractor. Then I started to farm with the tractor because the tractor would do more than the

mules could do. And I farmed up until 1979, the last year I farmed. And after that I'd rent

my farm out.

29. Turner: So when you went to sell like the cotton or tobacco or soybeans, did just all the

farmers kind of bring their goods and then buyers were at this place?

30. Bethune: Well, the biggest time I would sell it right to the gin, the buyers would be right

there and no sooner than it come out of the press, I would sell it bale by bale. Sometimes I

would bring it home until I would get about five or six bales and I would carry it and sell it in

a lump like that.

Thelmer Bethune 7

31. Turner: Did anyone work on the farm who wasn't related to you?

32. Bethune: Well yeah, I had to hire people to help me pick the cotton. The families around,

when they'd get through gathering their crops I'd hire them to come and help gather mine

because I was lucky, I was planting more cotton than they'd plant and they would bring their

children to pick cotton for me. I'd hire them to gather it because I couldn't gather it unless I

had their help. And tobacco, I had to go get people to come and help me crop it, string it, put

it up in the barn, cure it out. And I had people to come there and help my wife take it off

sticks, put it in sheets, carry it to the market.

33. Turner: What did you do with the soybeans?

34. Bethune: I carried them to the market. See the thrasher could come by and trash them right

in the field and dump them in the wagon and then I'd take them to the market in Sumter to

Sumter Grainery and sell them.

35. Turner: Were you able to attend school when you were younger?

36. Bethune: Well, I stopped in the second grade. But back then you see we couldn't, our

parents, we didn't go but, we had three months schooling and see back then you couldn't open

the colored schools, the white people wouldn't let you open them until they'd get their crop

out of the field. Because see the colored people had to go there and gather the crops. But

their children were in school but see they were hiring the teachers, you know, and the whites

was over the schools and they wouldn't. And then when did ( ) they could run three months

out of the year. But one year our parents went to them about when schools open and they tell

Thelmer Bethune 8

our parents say they ain't going to be able to this year to hire no teacher because there ain't no

money in the treasure. But now their children was in school and said they wouldn't be able to

give us but one month, pay for one month schooling. And so our parents couldn't get a

teacher because there was plenty of teachers but they had little jobs, you know, cooking and

stuff like that, cleaning and they said they couldn't quit their little job for one month because

when that month was up they couldn't go back to the little job what they had. And back then

see they didn't pay any teachers but five dollars a week. And see the four weeks wouldn't

have been but twenty dollars. So then our parents then hired my uncle's wife to teach. Rubin

Clark's wife's mother, they hired her to teach. She finished in the eighth grade in Manning

and then our parents hired her to teach and the county paid her for one month and then our

parents got together and they get her to teach two more months and they would have little

plays at the schoolhouse. All the parents around would get together and they would cook.

Some of them would cook potato pies and they used to plant peanuts, parched some peanuts

and carry to the schoolhouse and have a little party and sell and raise a little money to pay for

any teaching us. It was five dollars a week and that was twenty dollars a month and they

hired her then two months. But a lot of times see I had to, well back when we go to school,

the biggest time the boys would have to go in the woods and cut wood and tote it to the

schoolhouse to keep the fire going so it would keep the children warm. And sometimes we'd

go and it would take us the morning sometimes until recess time cutting wood and bringing it

back. And you had to keep the little heater they had in there hot so the children would stay

warm because old cracks was in the building. You could look out through the cracks and see

what was going on.

Thelmer Bethune 9

37. Turner: How many rooms were there?

38. Bethune: Just one. Sometimes there would be about seventy-five or eighty head of children

and one teacher and she would teach from the first to the seventh grade, that one teacher.

Sometimes teachers was able to get to you, sometimes you'd get one lesson in a day because

she had to go around like that. And then sometimes I had to come back home to work you

know at twelve o'clock. And sometimes I wasn't able to get nary lesson. In the second

grade, I stopped in the second grade. But I was able to buy this place up here and was able to

pay for it. I had this house built and I was able to pay for it off the farm. I worked and saved

money. In fact, I'd raise my own chickens, my own eggs. You know, my wife raised

chicken and eggs. And we kept a garden, a winter garden, summer garden. In other words,

live at home.

39. Turner: You didn't go to stores for anything?

40. Bethune: Well, the only time we'd go to the store maybe for some sugar or coffee. See we'd

raise our own meat and chickens and we had milk cows, had our own milk. And we'd carry

our corn to the mill and get us grits and meal ground to the mill. To the mill on Saturday and

carry enough corn to have ground to last you until the next Saturday.

41. Turner: One more thing I wanted to ask you about school, did your books, did your parents

also have to raise money for the books or did the school give you...?

42. Bethune: No, you had to buy your books. You had to buy the books.

43. Turner: How about church when you were a child?

Thelmer Bethune 10

44. Bethune: Well, out here we had the church. My daddy had a horse and buggy and we'd

walk to church like all us children going, you know. We would get out that morning and

we'd walk to church and my parents, my daddy would be along with us, he'd walk then.

We'd get down to the branch, we'd carry our shoes in our hand. Had a little branch just

before you'd get to the church. He'd stop down there and wash his foot off in the water and

then put

45. his shoes on and go on to church.

46. Turner: What was the name of your church?

47. Bethune: Mount Zero.

48. Turner: Mount Zero? Is that still - I thought I saw Mount Zero on there.

49. Bethune: Yeah, from Pinewood going to Manning.

50. Turner: Yeah, I've seen it, okay.

51. Bethune: We'd walk.

52. Turner: What was the name of your school, the school you went to?

53. Bethune: Oak Grove.

54. Turner: Were your parents very active in the church?

Thelmer Bethune 11

55. Bethune: Oh, yeah. My daddy was the Sunday school superintendent. My daddy, he didn't

go to school but three weeks in his lifetime. But he was the Sunday school superintendent

and he could pick up anything and read it. In fact, he would teach us in the night, you know,

our books. He would pick up anything and read it. He said how he got his learning, he didn't

go to school but three weeks but how he got his learning, his mother had four children, three

boys and one girl and his daddy died and his white, he was a doctor, Dr. Reynolds back then.

Said Dr. Reynolds come by the house one morning telling his mama said, you know, said

you ain't going to take care of all these children so how about giving me one of them. She

said alright, you can get one.

56. Turner: Who was this?

57. Bethune: Dr. Reynolds, a white fellah, he was a doctor. See back then it was nothing but

horse and buggy you know and he come on that morning. See my daddy's daddy was dead

and there had been three of them boys and one girl and Dr. Reynolds tell his mama, said you

ought to give me one of these children, you ain't able to take care of these four children. She

said alright, you can have one. And so asked his brother Henry and he said no, no I ain't

going. And Isaac said no, I ain't going to go. He said I'll go. And his mother went and got

his little bit of clothes and put in a little flower sack and he got in the buggy with Dr.

Reynolds. Went on to the house and Dr. Reynolds had a son called Danny. He said him and

Danny sleep together and when he got up bigger then he had to do the cooking. And said at

night he would hold the light. Dr. Reynolds' wife was school teacher and at night he would

hold the light for her to teach her children and he'd hold the light and that's how he got his

learning. He'd pick up what she was trying to teach them and he said he'd pick it up better

Thelmer Bethune 12

than the children. And he could pick up anything and read it. My brother, he was going to

school here to Manning in the tenth grade and my daddy would help him in his work.

58. Turner: Now they didn't know he was learning?

59. Bethune: I don't reckon so because see after he'd hold the light for him and he said he made

up his mind he was going to learn to read and write.

60. Turner: How long did he stay with the Reynolds family?

61. Bethune: When he got married he got married at their house.

62. Turner: How old was he when he went to stay with them?

63. Bethune: He said he was about six or seven years old.

64. Turner: Was that common for like families to take children?

65. Bethune: Well, I guess back then, you know. He'd been living with, you know, I guess she

said well... Yeah, when he got married he got married at Dr. Reynolds' house when he

married my mother. He said the first two children born he said Dr. Reynolds come and wait

on his wife for his first two children.

66. Turner: Did he deliver them?

67. Bethune: Yeah, un-huh. And said when everything was over with said Dr. Reynolds you

know would drive the horse and buggy there and tell him, said Jones you got some meal

Thelmer Bethune 13

around there, husks around there, you can put a couple of quarts in the tub and give my mare.

My dad said yeah. And said he give her a bundle of fodder and when he get through he just

lay across the foot of the bed and go on to sleep. And the next morning my daddy he'd cook

breakfast and Dr. Reynolds would eat his breakfast and hitch the horse back up to the wagon

and he'd go on back.

68. Turner: That's interesting. That's really interesting. Did you ever travel outside of Silver?

69. Bethune: Yeah, I went to Jersey and stayed. I quit farming and I rent my farm out that year

and I leave here in February, me and my wife and went to New Jersey and stayed with my

oldest sister and her husband. They'd be talking about how much money you could be

making up there and all like that. And we went up there and I couldn't get nothing to do and

my wife, she got a stay in job in Red Bank, New Jersey.

70. Turner: What year was this?

71. Bethune: Let's see, that was in 195-, wait a minute now, I had a 1957 Plymouth and that

was 1959. And my wife she got a job to Red Bank, you know, staying in working. It was

fifty dollars a week she'd be getting and she had a half a day off on Thursday and then every

other Sunday and I'd go down and get her and then bring her back to my sister's house where

I was staying. And so I didn't get nothing to work, nothing to do until I believe it was the day

before the fourth of July and I stayed there until October and I tell my wife, I said ( ), I said

hell, we're worse off than the day when I leave home. I said shoot, I'm going back. And so

we packed up and got in my car, I drive my car up there, and we come on back. I didn't have

my house to stay in then. My house had got burned down and I was living in that barn you

Thelmer Bethune 14

see out there. And so we come on back and then I had to turn around and buy another tractor

because I sell out most stuff I had going there. They were talking about oh, man you could

make so much money, you could do this and do that. I'm going to tell you, things up there,

I'll tell you the truth, just like it is here but there's one thing, they wasn't outspoken but they

had ( ) just like we had to ( ). Just like people down here, some of them have had. And

shoot. Because I know when I was on the job doing construction work and I carried, twelve

o'clock the fellahs said let's go down to the Bell Garden and get a cool glass of beer, you

know, go with our lunch and then they'd buy lunch there too you know. And so I had another

colored fellah, there was just us two colored fellahs on that job, so when we got there I tell

that other fellah, I said you ain't going in and get a beer. He said no. I said why. He said

man, you go in there and get it, he said they'll serve you but then they'll bust the glass up that

you drink out of. I said what. He said yeah. I said well I'll go on in and get one. I said hell,

they'll have to bust it up. And so I went on in and ordered my beer, drank it and he stayed on

the outside. And when I come out he said they didn't bust your glass up. I said no. He said

well they bust mine up. I said I don't see why. He said you know, said he don't know what

you is. Said he thinks you're some kind of a foreigner. I said why. He worked up there on

that job I guess about I'd say a month and I'd go there but he wouldn't go in. So then the

bossman send out on another job and I was the only colored fellah on that job and we had,

there was one, two, three, there were three white and myself on that job. We had a black top,

you know, ( ) and that cold weather to freeze, bust it up and we had to dig it up and put

down more. And so I went that day and we worked until twelve. So when twelve o'clock

come the little foreman, of course he had to work too, he'd worked there with us but he took

the other two white fellahs in the truck and he tell me said, called me Red, he said Red,

Thelmer Bethune 15

you've got your lunch here. I said yeah, I bring my lunch. He said well, let's go up and get

us a cool beer with our lunch. And he said when one o'clock comes you start back to

digging. I said uh-huh. So they had some shade trees going in from the road up to that lane

and that house. It was hot and so when I got through eating my lunch I laid down under the

tree shade and cocked my legs up and went on to sleep. One o'clock come they didn't show

up and I didn't go to no work either. I laid right there with my leg cocked up and they didn't

get back until two o'clock and I was laying up there in the shade. He come by, he said Red,

you ain't working! I said hell no. I said what do you take me to be. I said you all riding

around talking about asking me if I'm working. I said no. Yeah, but man the bossman come

here and see you! I said well he just as well to see me because I damn sure wasn't going to

work until ya'll come back. Yeah but now we've got to work an hour overtime. I said ya'll

can work an hour overtime but not me. I said when four fifteen comes, see you've got fifteen

minutes to get your tools up in and put on the truck. And I said four fifteen comes, I'm

knocking off. Oh, no you ain't, you're going to work an hour overtime. I said not me. See

we done lost - I said un-uh, I ain't lost nothing, ya'll lost it. I said I was on the job but I

wasn't going to work until ya'll come back. If ya'll ain't going to work, I said well, you'll see.

And four fifteen come, looked at my watch, I took my tools and I carried it and throwed it on

the truck, got inside and sat down. Man, I'm going to tell Mr. Smith, he was the head man

you know, I'm going to tell Mr. Smith when I get back to the job that you - I said no, no, you

ain't going to do no damn telling. I said I'm going to do that damn telling. I said him exactly

why we ain't did no more. I said why do you want to tell. I said un-uh, that's my job. I'm

going to tell exactly why we ain't did nothing else. I said I'm going to tell him just that I

stayed under the tree shade until ya'll come back and we didn't went to work until two

Thelmer Bethune 16

o'clock. Look here, let's be friends, let's be friends. Don't say nothing. I said oh no, you

done said what you're going to do so now hell, I know what I'm going to do. I said dammit

you want to let's be friends, I said it wasn't a friend when you take the other two damn fellahs

and went to the Bell Garden and I was right there on the job, you didn't ask me nothing. I

said no, I'm going to do that damn telling. So he stopped on the road to a place and went in

to get four bottles of beer, come back out and handed me one. I said un-uh, I don't want it.

Oh man, come on, come on, it's free. I said I tell you I don't want no damn beer, I tell you I

don't want it. I wouldn't drink it. He got just about to the shop he said what you saying. I

said according to how I feel when I get there. I said it's according to how I feel. I said if I

don't feel no damn better than I feel now I said I'm going to do the talking. Oh he pleaded, he

begged, he pleaded. So I get back and I get in my car and I come on home. I didn't say

nothing. And so the next day they're working, come on Red, let's go, we're going to get some

beer. Come on, come on let's go. He got to the place, he ordered the beer. I said no, no, no,

un-uh. I'm paying for my beer. I said I've got money. I wouldn't drink his beer. He said no,

no, no, no! I said hell, I'm not, I'm paying for my own. He come out he said Red man, said

let's be friends. He said I'm sorry what I done, said I was wrong, said I'm sorry. And so then

he tell the bossman said you know, Bethune won't work. Said you talk about a lazy fellah, he

won't do nothing. So he tell that, thought the man would have fired me. So then the next day

the man send me and one more fellah, white fellah, to where they was widening the highway,

to cut some trees up low. You know trees on the ground, cut up, you know, get them out of

the way, you know. And so we went out there and he asked me, said Bethune, you ever run a

chain saw before. I said no, but I said I can run it. He said well, he said if you want to cut

these logs up here. I said okay. So he put the gas in and showed me how to crank it up and I

Thelmer Bethune 17

said okay, I've got it. I went to cutting the logs up and he tell me said look a here, he said

you're working too darn fast. He said this here job is supposed to last us all day. He said

man, the way you're working, said hell, we'll be through by twelve o'clock. I said I just don't

like to sit around. I said I'd rather be doing something. He said you know one thing, he said

ain't you need to go in the bush. I said no. He said I think so. He said go on down there and

lay down in the shade some. So I went on in the shade. He said man, I want to make that job

last all day because if it don't said man, I don't want to go back on another job. He said man,

he tell us you know that job's going to last us all day. He said man, the way you're working,

said shoot, you'll finish it by twelve o'clock. So then we went back and the boss asked this

fellah you know, he said how did Bethune work. He said man, that's a damn good worker.

He said well how the hell, ( ) tell me. He said man, ( ) lied. He said man he said Bethune,

that's a working damn man. He said it ain't no need to worry about him. He said hell, I can't

keep up with him. So after that then the boss wouldn't, you know, after that I tell the boss I

don't want to go with ( ) no more. I said (End of Tape 1 - Side A)

72. Tape 1 - Side B

73. Bethune: I went to Sumter to the man and I tell the man I say, look here, the Ford man, I

said I want me a Ford tractor and I said a new one and I said I want a cultivator. I said but if

you got a sit down cultivator that will be alright but I want a new tractor. And I'm going to

lay it on to start with, I ain't got nary penny to put down on it. He looked at me, he said well.

I said I want a new tractor. I said my cotton is up growing and I said the grass in there

growing and I said I need a cultivator to get there and work it. And I said I ain't got nary

dime to put on it. He looked at me and he said Thelmer, he said you got that much nerve to

Thelmer Bethune 18

ask me for a new tractor, nothing down on it. He said yeah, take my pocket knife, go out

there, he said there's seven out there, go out there and cut the tag off either one out there -

there's seven new ones out there - and bring it back in here. I went and cut it off and bring it

back in. He fixed the paper up. He said now when are you going to make a payment. I said

this Fall. I said I plan on paying you this Fall for it. Back then it wasn't but sixteen hundred

and sixty-eight dollars you know for the new tractor and I said I'll pay you this Fall. He said

now I'll tell you the truth, I said I ain't never sell a tractor with nothing down. I come on back

to the house and I went to Manning and I said Bill, I said I want two hundred and sixty

dollars. I said I've got to have me a tractor. I said don't tell me about you ain't got it now,

just go ahead and give me the money. He went on and handed it to me. I turned and I went

on back up there that evening and I walked in. I said Thelmer, I done sent the tractor out to

your house, said tractor and cultivator. Said the man's out there waiting on you. I said well

here, I've come in to bring you some money. And so I give him four hundred and sixty-five

dollars. He said you know one thing, he said I pulled your bluff. He said you thought I

wasn't going to let you have that tractor. But he said I pulled your bluff. But he didn't know

I didn't have no money. (Laughter) I was going to get it and carry it to him. He said I pulled

your bluff. You know if a fellah, if you're straight, people know you. I could go anywhere I

wanted.

74. Turner: How was it then with your relationship with white people in town?

75. Bethune: You know, with the people who I do business with, businessmen, they was alright.

And I know I went to Summerton and I went in the old man ( ) Sprott, he was living then,

but now his son wasn't worth two cents. Old man Sprott, I went in and I owed him fifty-eight

Thelmer Bethune 19

dollars and I paid him. He said Bethune, he said you know you're the first man paid me out.

He said you must have made a good crop. I said man, I ain't made no crop. He said well I

know I ain't made one. He said I've got a fellah on my farm, he said I know he's a good man

and say he got eighteen acres of cotton and said he won't make but two bales. I said man I

know, I ain't making nothing, I ain't got no money but I paid all my little debts. I said but my

big debt I can't pay it. He said what do you mean big debt. I said well I borrowed two

thousand two hundred dollars from a man last year and I give him a mortgage of my tractor

and thirty-one acres of land and I can't pay him. He said did you offer him the interest. I

said no, I offered him more than that. I offered to give him seven hundred and thirty-five

dollars. He said he didn't take it. I said no, he said he wanted all or none and I tell him, I

said well, you'll get all or none. He said man, he can't take your tractor. I said don't tell me

what he can't do I said because he got the papers, they were good papers. He said not long as

I live. He said when does it come due. I said in thirty days time. It was sixty days but I put

it there so if he didn't come up with what he said I had thirty days to go ahead and work some

other place. He said well you come back down here. So when thirty days was up I went

back. I drive the tractor down there. I went in the store, I said that debt come due. He said

alright. He said well how are you down here. I said on my tractor. He said well get in my

car. So he walked behind the desk and he take out a blank check and stick in his shirt pocket,

pen, come got in the car and come on to Silver. He walked in the store, he said hello, B.K.

Hey, Mr. Sprott, how are you doing. Said alright. Said B.K., said Bethune here tell me you

got a paper on him. Said you mind me looking at it. No, no, no, no, you go ahead and look

at it. He said Thelmer, what you say is right. Said well, I'm going to take it up if you don't

have no objection. No, not unless Thelmer objection. I said man, how the hell I got

Thelmer Bethune 20

objection and you're going to foreclose on me. I said you know I ain't got no objection to this

man taking the paper up. And so seeing it Sprott said wait a minute. He said Bethune's got

thirty more days on here. He said let's figure the interest. So Drake said let's knock off five

dollars. He said no, let's figure it because I don't want Thelmer to beat you and I don't want

you to beat Thelmer. So old man Sprott figured it up, he said well it will be ten dollars and

some cents. He said well, I'll just knock off ten. Bethune - I said that'll be alright. So he

said Drake, I ain't got no money with me but I've got a blank check. But if you're scared to

take my check I'll go back, the bank was already closed, you know it was three o'clock. He

said I'll go back and call Columbia and have the bank reopen and bring you the cash. Drake

said oh no, no, no man, I'll take your check. So he write him a check. He said alright sign,

so Drake signed. He said tell your wife to come here and sign. So she signed. He said well

Bethune, you ready. I said yes sir. Went on back, got to his office. He said now how do you

want to let's fix this paper. I said wait a minute, let me give you the money what I had for

him. You've got some money. I said you know I tell you I had some money for him and he

said he wanted all or none. And I count out seven one hundred dollar bills and thirty-seven

dollars and twenty cents. He said Thelmer, I ain't paying but fifteen hundred for you. I said

that's right. He said how do you want to let's fix the fifteen hundred, five years. I said no,

no, no, no, no sir, that's too long. I said one year. He said no, no. He said let's fix it, things

might be tough again, said don't say one year. He said let's say three years. That will just be

five hundred dollars a year plus interest. I said okay. So he fixed it and that Fall I went

down there and I paid him the five hundred dollars and interest. Next year I paid him five

hundred and interest. That third year I went there to give him the five hundred and interest,

he said Thelmer, he said I don't need that money. Just give me the interest and go ahead on

Thelmer Bethune 21

with the five hundred dollars. I paid him the interest and come on back. Next year I went

down there to pay the interest, come on back. Did that for three years. The next year my

uncle tell me say Thelmer, he said ain't you owe Mr. Sprott a little debt. I said yeah, I said

five hundred dollars. He said well you know, he got the third heart attack in the hospital.

Said you better go down there and pay it because I don't know how his boys are going to act.

I said okay. So I went on that night and I paid it. I give it to his secretary you know. She

said no Thelmer, Mr. Sprott, just pay the interest and go ahead on. I said no, I want to pay it

all tonight. She said well okay. So I paid her, she marked the papers paid in full and handed

them to me. I went on back to Manning that Monday, walked in the courthouse, give it to the

clerk of court tell him mark it off the book and he looked at it and he said Thelmer, he said

this is a real estate mortgage, he said I know it's paid now, he said I know it's paid but said

you have to have two witnesses. He said it's a real estate mortgage. Said take it back and tell

her to get two witnesses to witness it and then bring it back. I said okay. I said call her on

the phone and tell her what to do. So he called to tell her. She said tell him bring it on back.

So I went right on back down there then and she got two witnesses to sign and I went on

back and that Wednesday the old man died. And that next Saturday I was in Summerton and

his son come out, I was on the street there talking to Henry McDonald. He come up he said

Thelmer, how are you doing. I said alright. He said I want to see you a little bit. I said okay.

I said wait, you can talk to me now. So I walked with him. He said Thelmer, he said you

know daddy died. I said yeah, I said I heard about it. I said I'm sorry he died because he was

a good man. And he said yeah. He said look here, I've got a little debt you owe daddy. Said

I'm going to have to have it or foreclose on the paper on the mortgage. I said I don't owe

your daddy nothing. He said oh yeah, you owe him. I tell him no, no I don't owe him nary

Thelmer Bethune 22

dime. I said I done paid that money man and I done had them papers recorded in the

courthouse. Who you pay it to! I said I paid it to his secretary who I've been paying it to all

the time. She didn't tell me. I said I ain't got nothing to do with that. And he said, what did

he say. Now you see, if you hadn't signed that petition to integrate the schools I wouldn't

worry you. But see, since you signed the petition to integrate the schools said that's why I

have to have it or either foreclose on you. I went to walk off, he said wait a minute. He said

maybe you ain't know what integration means. I catch myself quick. I said oh, wait a

minute, I said maybe not. I said tell me what it means. He said you know what it means, he

said my son can go to your house tonight and take your daughter on a ride and wouldn't even

nothing to it. Would you like that. I said that ain't nothing. I said your son come and carry

my daughter on a ride, my son carry your daughter on a ride. I said what's the difference.

(Laughter) That man turned, looked like all the blood just leave him just like that. He turned

around and he walked off from me. I said wait a minute. He stopped. I said let me ask you

something. I said if you go to the store to buy some steak for your wife and you ask the man

and the man tells you this here is the best steak, this here is forty cents a pound. This here

ain't the best now and you can get that for twenty cents a pound. I said what would you buy

your family. He said oh, I'd buy the best. I said well listen, I said my colored women must

be better than the white. I can said while ya'll run after colored women you don't see no

colored men run after a white woman. I said you can't say it ain't so I said because look at

my color. I say it comes from back every since slavery. That man, boy he cut loose from

me. He went on back in his store. He ain't had nothing more to say to me.

76. Turner: Wow. Was that common, white men pursuing black women?

Thelmer Bethune 23

77. Bethune: Yeah, sure. Back then sure, man. You see a lot of real fair colored children and

the parents dark. That's the white man out there messing. I tell him I said look at your hand,

look at mine. I said your hand ain't no brighter than mine. I said the old fore-parents mess

up back in slavery and I said they're still doing it. I said it's not back, they're still doing it. I

said let night come and you'll see they're running around here after these colored women.

You don't see no colored man running around with the white. I said you know your trouble, I

say ya'll might - a fellah got in jail down there and ( ) called me and tell me the fellah want

me to take him out on bond. So I went down to sign the bond and I went to the deputy

sheriff ( ) and I tell him I said I come here to sign that bond, the fellah's in jail. I went to the

front door and mashed the doorbell and he come to the door. I don't answer my front door

for no nigger. Said if you want to talk to me go around to the back. I started to get in my car

and come on back home but I stood there, I said the man's in jail, he's looking for me to take

him out. So I walked around on the back, he come on out where I was, set down on the

porch and started talking. He said Thelmer, said you know, say why ya'll ( ) talking about (

) but you know you ain't going to never see no black children in that school, that old white

school they had in Summerton. You ain't never - I said man, let me tell you something. I

said now you know, I said we don't want to mix, I said but now let me tell you something. I

say see that pecan tree on your place. I said that pecan tree's not on your place, it's on the

outside your fence here. I said now when them pecans fall the tree's right by the fence but it's

on the other man's land but the limb's over on your place. I said now when them pecans fall

on your side you going to let that man come and get them pecans. No, they're my damn

pecans if they fall on my place! I said okay. I said well, I said you know, I said because ya'll

raising sand I said now, we're going to show you that the colored is going to be in that school

Thelmer Bethune 24

of your's next year. I said we're going to show you that. I said if they don't you'll be dead if

you don't want to see it. See the first time when we signed the petition...

78. Turner: Which petition did you sign?

79. Bethune: The first one we signed was to have separate but equal schools and lawyer ( ), he

was the lawyer then but he's dead a long time now from Columbia. So alright, he carried the

papers down there to Charleston to Judge Warren and he looked at them and he said this ain't

what ya'll want. He said this ain't going to do you no good. He says separate but equal, he

said how do you know that ya'll getting the same thing in ya'll's schools that the whites

getting in their own. He said how do you know when it's separate. He said I ain't going to

sign these. He tear them up. He said go back and bring me a petition to integrate the schools

and I'll sign it. So then lawyer ( ) come back and he bring the papers at night from

Columbia. It was lawyer ( ) and Mrs. Simpson and a preacher went along with them, I can't

hardly think of his name.

80. Turner: Delaine?

81. Bethune: No, Delaine he had already leave. And this fellah, oh I can't think of his name

now, anyhow he brought the papers there to St. Marks A.M.E. Church in Summerton and he

put them on the table. He said alright, he said now I'm going to tell you what is here. He

said Judge Warren tear up the other papers and he said he wouldn't sign them. He said these

papers here now to sign petition to sign to integrate the schools. He said I'm going to tell you

now before you sign them what it is so you come up here and then you sign them and then

you go back and tell the white people you didn't know what you was signing and that man

Thelmer Bethune 25

bring them and tell you to sign them but you didn't know what you was signing. He said I'm

going to tell you what it is before you sign. He said now I've got to have so many of them to

carry it in. People started looking at one another in there. I was sitting there by William

Riggins, Henry McDonald. I said hell, I'll go on and sign. I said hell, I done lived some and

if I die today or tomorrow I said I want to die helping my children and my great-great

grandchildren. I said not only mine, other people's children to get a better education than

what I got. I said hell, I'll go on and sign. And I got up and I went and signed then William

Riggins and then others started getting up coming up there and signed. We didn't got too

many signed that night. But the man tell him he had three weeks, you know, to carry them

in. So when they carried them in Judge Warren signed to integrate the schools. And let me

tell you something, that time people man, they started to cutting people. You know, didn't

want to credit, you know. And man, Summerton one time, before then Summerton was a

booming town. Summerton had three gins in Summerton running; Grayson had a gin and

Harward had a gin, McClary and Anderson had a gin running. And man, cotton, oh man, all

the gins had was busy. Then man them white people, the way they was renting you know

colored people land, tough man, they take their land back and a lot of them was

sharecropping, they take it back. And the stores, they wouldn't credit you. Didn't want to gin

the cotton. But Grayson, he ginned but them other fellahs stopped ginning cotton. And man,

and wouldn't credit you, you know. And so I told, I was doing business with F.H.A and man,

it stopped letting me have money. This same Buck Sprott, I was getting gas from him, a lot

of farmers was buying gas from him and man, he said he wasn't going to let us have no more

gas unless we had the cash money to pay for it. Before we be getting it and every thirty days

we'd pay up, two months we paid. But from then on said no gas unless you had the cash

Thelmer Bethune 26

money. So when the fellahs tell me that I went down there to Mr. Oliver Lane, John Lane's

uncle, and I tell him about, you know. He said you're going to need gas for your tractor, I tell

him yeah. He said you need a tank. I tell him no, I got a tank. He said well do you want me

to send some up now. I said no, I've got some in it now. He said well before you give out

call me and I'll come fill it up. I said okay. He said money or no money. So when the gas

got down low I called him and he come up there to fill it up. And see I get the tank from

Buck Sprott. It was his tank you know. When time to do anything with him but when that

come up then they stopped and we wouldn't buy no gas, won't going to pay him no cash.

And so I was deer hunting that day, when I come home that night my wife tell me...

82. Turner: You were hunting?

83. Bethune: Deer hunting. Used to deer hunt every Tuesday on the state, in the Sandhills.

When I come in that night my wife tell me, say Buck Sprott's been here and come for his

tank and I tell him he can't carry that tank, you got gas in that tank. And he asked me where

did we get the gas from. I tell him I don't know the man. I tell him to ask you, you'll tell

him. And so he said well, tell her to tell me to come down there, he wants to talk with you. I

said okay. I wouldn't go right away. I wait about two or three weeks and I went on down

there. I walked in the place, I said how are you doing. Hello Thelmer, what can I do for you.

I said my wife tells me you've been home the other week and left word for me to come down

here, you wanted to see me. He said oh, yeah. He said Thelmer, I went up there the other

day to get my tank and you've got gas in it. I said yeah. He said who put that gas in there. I

said Mr. Oliver Lane. He put gas in my tank. I said I tell him to put in there. I said I tell him

to put it in there. Yeah, but you know that's my tank. I said yeah, but you know I have to

Thelmer Bethune 27

have gas and I said I tell him to put it in there. He said well, how about when you get it

empty, how about letting me know and I'll pick it up. I said okay. So I started and I got half

the way coming out of the store, I changed my mind, I walked back there. I said look here, I

said I ain't going to let you get that tank. I said I'll pay for the tank because I ain't going to let

you move it. I said what do you want for it. He said well, I'll take fifty dollars for it. I said

okay, I said I'll pay you in a few days. I could have paid him then but I just wouldn't pay

him. I come on home and I waited about a month, I went back in there. I said how are you

doing, I come in to pay for that gas tank. He said how much did I tell you. I said you tell me

fifty dollars. His son was in there. His son said daddy, how are you going to sell him that

tank for fifty dollars and them tanks we got out there cost us sixty-five dollars. Said you

going to be loss that much money. He said Thelmer, I have to have sixty dollars for it. I said

okay, I'll give you the sixty dollars. I said here, I don't mind giving you ten dollars more. I

says just to know that your word ain't worth a damn. And I walked on out. And later on he

sent his son up here, I was out there planting cotton out there and his son come in the yard.

My wife went to the door and she said who you want to see. I want to see your husband.

Said yonder he is across the field yonder. Said go on across there if you want to see him. So

he walked on across there where I was. How are you doing. I said I'm doing fine, how are

you doing. Alright. He waits out there, he didn't know what to say. Finally he said, daddy

sent me up here to sell you some gas. I said wait a minute boy. I said you done ( )

somebody's house. I said you know what my name is. I said I'm named Thelmer Bethune.

He said I know, he said daddy tell me to come here. He said daddy said to stop by ( ) house.

I said wait a minute, I said hold it. I said ( ) been buying some gas from you. No, no, no, he

didn't buy none. I said I just want to know. I said if he did I was going in there and take my

Thelmer Bethune 28

knife and cut his damn throat because he know damn well he don't supposed to buy no more

gas from ya'll. No, no, he didn't buy none, he didn't buy none. I said okay.

84. Turner: So ya'll were boycotting him?

85. Bethune: Yeah. I said no, I said I'm doing business with a fine man. Said daddy wanted to

know could he slip you a tank every now and then. I said no, tell him no, I don't do business

like that. Tell him when I was doing business with him I didn't let nobody slip no gas in and

since I done stopped now and I'm with another man I ain't going to let nobody slip no gas in.

I said I'm doing business with a fine man. And boy I mean, he lost about, I count up about

thirty-seven customers, you know, he lost because all of us just quit, you know and went and

got gas from Oliver Lane, John Lane's uncle.

86. Turner: I was talking to Bobby this morning and he told me to ask you how you got the

nickname the Judge.

87. Bethune: (Laughter) Up on the deer hunt back then we would try people, you know like if

they miss a deer, you know, had a good shot at a deer and miss him. Then we would bring

them up to ( ) court. They named me for the judge and I would pass the sentence how much

( ) to give them for missing. And the first time was light then if they missed the next time,

you know, they got more. That's why they started calling me Judge.

88. Turner: Okay. Can we backtrack a little bit - do you remember the Depression or issues

like WPA workers?

Thelmer Bethune 29

89. Bethune: Shoot, I work on WPA for forty cents a day. And you had to walk back then, you

had to carry your own tools. They didn't give you no tools to work with.

90. Turner: What kind of work did you do?

91. Bethune: Cleaned up ditches and things you know in the road. Yeah, I walked, now I didn't

have this place here then, I was staying on my mother's place further down and walk me out

to ( ) to work. Had to leave in the night and come in the night because we used to make ten

hours, forty cents a day. That was four cents an hour. And I take that forty cents and my

mother was being sick and I'd buy medicine for her and I'd buy groceries and I carry her to

Dr. Foreman. See back then Dr. Foreman was living and he didn't charge but a dollar and a

half for examination and give you the medicine for a dollar and a half. And he made a good

living at it like that. Didn't charge nobody but a dollar and a half and give you the medicine.

And I'd carry her up there and then I'd hire somebody to carry her up there because I didn't

have no car back then. I had to hire somebody to carry her up there and I'd get this fellah to

carry her for a dollar and a half and then the doctor was a dollar and a half. All out of that

forty cents. I'd save, like if I'd buy groceries this week, see then next week I didn't have to

buy no groceries. See of course groceries was cheap back then. On Saturday when I'd make

that forty cents, two dollars on Friday in a little envelope, and man, I come back home and I'd

give that to my mother and sometimes on Saturday she'd tell me, say boy, said I know I

ought to give you more than this but say I've got bills to pay, I've got insurance to pay and I

can't give you but ten cents. I tell her that will be alright. And I'd take that ten cents and I'd

go to Silver and I'd go in the store and I'd get me ten pennies and we'd have a little crap game

(Laughter) around by the depot. They had an old depot at Silver then and in fact the train

Thelmer Bethune 30

was running back then. The freight train was running, they'd done stopped passenger train

but they had a freight train hauling logs and I'd take them ten pennies and I'd go out there and

we had a penny game and then a two cent game over there and then a three cent game. I'd

get in the penny game and I'd hustle up about twenty cents out of the penny game then I'd

jump into the two cent game and I'd hustle up about twenty-five or thirty cents and then I'd

get on the big game with three cents. I'd get in that and sometimes I'd hustle up, I'd get about

sometimes a dollar to a dollar and a quarter, dollar and a dime and I'd quit. I said boys I'm

broke, I say ya'll got me, I ain't got no more money. Man, you ain't broke. I said don't tell

me. I said you want to let me shoot free. No, no, no! I'd get up and go in the store and I'd

change the pennies back and I'd get some silver money and I'd get me a couple of cigars.

Back then you'd get two for a nickel and I'd smoke one and then I'd save one to smoke on

Sunday. I'd take that ten cents and hustle up money. Sometimes she'd be able to give me

fifteen cents.

92. Turner: Who was this?

93. Bethune: Sometimes my mother would be able to give me fifteen cents out of the money

because when I'd work, I'd come in and hand it to her. But children don't do that now. Man,

a lot of children now go out and work and shoot, the parents don't know, scared to ask them

how much they get.

94. Turner: Was you or your family affected by the boll weevil?

Thelmer Bethune 31

95. Bethune: Oh yeah. At that time I tell you about the short crop, man them boll weevils ate

up everybody's crop that year. That's why I wasn't able to pay my debt. That boll weevil eat

up the crop.

96. Turner: How about World War II? Do you remember people who went?

97. Bethune: To war?

98. Turner: Un-huh.

99. Bethune: Yeah but you know, I know people went but you know, I volunteered to go but the

man never took me because I went to Fort Jackson for an examination, examined you, you

know, and the man asked me said why do you want to go in service. I said well, people

going fighting and I said I want to go too. He said no, he said I'll tell you, he said you're

farming and he says somebody's got to farm to take care, to feed the soldiers. He said you're

doing a good job on the farm, said you're raising corn and stuff like that, hogs and stuff like

that. He said now it ain't nothing wrong with your health. He said your health is alright but

we have to have farmers to grow the stuff he said to take care of the soldiers. And he said

you go on back home on your farm. He said you're growing a big farm.

100.Turner: So you didn't go. Do you remember the soldiers' returning home?

101.Bethune: Yeah, I remember. My cousin, Edith Clark's brother, he was in service but he's

dead now.

102.Turner: You said that your house burned. What happened?

Thelmer Bethune 32

103.Bethune: When he come back he got married and all. He went to New York and he lived

there. He got grown children, well he's got grandchildren. He died back here about oh, I'd

say at least five or six years ago. I had two boys went in service but they ain't been in no - I

got one boy ( ) Pine Shore field. He made twenty years in service, twenty years and a few

months. But he was out now oh, let's see, he went in he was sixteen years old. I had to sign

for him to go in. And he made twenty years and a few months. And then when he got out of

service he was stationed in Alaska and his family, he got married while he was in service.

Then his family was in Alaska. And when he got out of service then he worked on that

pipeline, you know, on the union and he done retired from the union. That was, see he was

in service twenty years and some months and then he worked in Alaska about I'd say, wait a

minute, let's see, about twelve or thirteen years and he retired from that in the Army. He live

( ) behind ( ) now. And my other boy, the oldest boy, he stayed in service I think for three

years. At that time, had three years then but he never would re-enlist.

104.Turner: You mentioned, did your house burn at one point?

105.Bethune: Yeah.

106.Turner: What happened?

107.Bethune: At that time you know had we signed for the schools and things, you know

fighting over integration, and I went to New York to carry my oldest son, Walter. He was in

service and he was stationed in Germany and he was married and his wife was in New York.

And when he come on a vacation his wife come home and then I went to carry him and his

wife back to New York in the car. And my wife, I tell her to stay down to there ( ) my

Thelmer Bethune 33

grandchildren's, not in the house. Another house had been there, you know, a wood house

had been there. Mrs. Mary Riggins, I had moved her family from Summerton up here

because the man who they was staying on the white's man's place, he had put them out, they

had to move and so I moved them up there. And then I tell my wife to stay there because

she'd be scared to stay here by herself. I tell her stay there until I carry my son and his wife

to New York. And then I went by Jersey and my son-in-law went with me on to New York

and I carried my boy and then I come on back in Cliffwood, New Jersey. (End of Tape 1 -

Side B)

108.Tape 2 - Side A

109.Turner: Your wife called you and said the house had been burned?

110.Bethune: Yeah. And you know, some people say, you know, that the fellahs burnt it down

but you know, ( ). And then I got a letter out of the box, out of my mailbox, come from the

Klan. Didn't have no name in the letter but they tell me said I'd better keep quiet because say

the KKK is still working.

111.Turner: What year was this?

112.Bethune: Let's see now, I'll tell you the truth, that was in the 1960's. And so I took the

letter and I carried it down to Manning and showed it to the sheriff, sheriff Jackson, he was

the sheriff then and he looked at it and he tell me say, there ain't nothing he can do about it

because there ain't no name, you know, signed on it, you know. And so I tell him, I said I

ain't coming up here to do nothing about it, I just come to show it to you. I said because

Thelmer Bethune 34

when, how come I come out here to show it to you so if they ever come home and I send a

few son-of-guns to hell or heaven you'll know why I do it. And I said that's why I show you

the letter. I said I ain't coming for no help. I said I've got six friends and they ain't never let

me down and I said that's when I'll depend on my six friends and I reach in my belt and I take

my gun out and laid it on his desk. He get up to move. I said wait a minute, I said this is

your office, it ain't mine. So I come on back and I went to Summerton that Saturday night

and I tell Allen Flemming about the letter. I told him I done been down there and showed it

to sheriff Jackson. He said you had a witness. I said no. He said you know he could say you

ain't been there. He said I wish you'd carried a witness with you. I said wait a minute, I said

there's an FBI agent in Summerton. I said let's go around there. I said you will be a witness.

Let's go in there, I'll show it to him. He said alright. So I went around there to the FBI here

in Summerton and I went to the door and I mashed the doorbell. There were four or five

white people in there talking. And so he come to the door and I tell him, come out here, I

want to show you something and I showed him the letter. He'd look at it and he'd read it and

he said Bethune, they ain't got no name on there who sent it and I don't know who to, you

know, see about it. I said no, I said I didn't come here for that. I said I've been to Manning to

show it to the sheriff down there but I ain't had no witness. I said why I show it to you, I got

a witness that I showed it to you and I said you can tell them I'm going to prepare a supper

for them and tell them I hope they won't let it spoil. I said that's why I come down so you'll

know I said so and if you know any of them you can tell them I'm going to cook supper for

them and tell them I don't want it to spoil. I said because some night I'm going to cook ( ). I

said you know that's a pretty expensive dish for it to go to the bad. And I said I depend on

my friends. I said I've got six friends. They ain't never let me down and I say, that's what I

Thelmer Bethune 35

depend on. And I never did hear nothing else from them. I left here one night, I got through

stripping cotton that day and I was dusty and I tell my wife I say you know, I say I feel like

me a drink and I say come on and ride with me. I said I'm going over to Silver. I said I'm

going to get me a drink. She said alright, I'll go with you. And when I got out to the road,

out to the paved road going to Silver, and when I got down there where them trailers,

something just struck me like that, said go back home and I just whirled around. My wife

said I thought you were going to Silver to get a drink. I said I changed my mind. And I

come driving back fast and when I turned to come down by the fence I seen a car light in the

barn flash on and I drive fast and that time they'd jumped in the car and there had been five

head in there. I catch them around the curve and I stopped right in the center of the road.

They couldn't pass because back during that time I had some cows and I had the cow pasture

on that side, you know, wire fences and they couldn't pass. And I stopped right there. I said

what you doing back up in here! I said who did you come here to see! We hunting the road

to Mr. Ingram's house. I said he don't live back up in here! I said I live in here and I said this

here is a private road! I said you better be particular coming back up in here! And I said see

that light over yonder - I said that's where Ingram lives! Two fellahs in the front and three

was in the back and one fellah hold his head down in the back and I realized who it was. It

was ( ) Eppes, one of the deputies. So I said back out of the way and I'll give you room to

come through. So they backed back and I pulled on the side and when they got there instead

of going up there to Ingram's house, the car turned on that way. But something came to my

mind saying go back home. So I don't know what they was intending to do, you know. See,

but my mind changed, I changed my mind and I whipped around and come on back and they

see the car coming in and they jumped in the car, took off. I didn't hide my gun. I'd just

Thelmer Bethune 36

leave it on the seat by me. I ain't had nobody to stop me because I'll tell them all, I'm going

to damn sure send some. I tell them, I said I'll have my great-great-great grandchildren will

read about their old great granddaddy, how much soul he send to hell or heaven. I said when

I go down I'm going to damn sure carry some fellahs with me. I said I ain't going down by

myself. I ain't had nobody, I'll tell you the truth, I ain't never got the ( ). I figure, I said a

man ain't nothing but a man. Said that's what ( ) said, ain't nothing but a man. Before he

lays dead, ( ) die with the ( ) in your hand. And that's what I intend to do. My parents

always teach me, say don't pick on nobody but then don't let nobody run over you. Say it

ain't but two things, a man or a monkey. Said if you don't ( ) a man he's a monkey. I made

up my mind I was going to do the right thing and just like my parents teach about debt. Dad

tell me, if you owe a debt pay it. And said if you go to borrow money from a fellah and say

if you go there for a hundred dollars and he tell you you can get two or three, don't get it.

Just get that one. He said because payday's coming and you can pay that one back quicker

than you can three. I know I went to the bank, after I tell you about FHA turned me down, I

went to the bank, this old fellah up here working down to the FHA and so I went to the bank

and I walk in there and I tell the man, I'd never been to the bank to borrow no money, you

know, not the National Bank and so I walk in there, that's the year I was farming and ( ) but

my tobacco had come in and I didn't have no money to put it in because the little money what

they let me have had done run out. I went to them and tell them I need some more money to

put my tobacco in. The man he tell me about can't let me have no more. I said me and my

wife can't put that tobacco in by ourselves. Well, I can't let you have no more money. So I

went on to the National Bank and I walk in there and the man asked me what can I do for you

and I tell him I said now look here, I come here to borrow some money. I said now I'm going

Thelmer Bethune 37

to let you know to start with I borrowed money from FHA to help farming this year and the

money out and I need some money to put my tobacco in. And he said how much money you

borrow from them and I tell him. He said how much corn you got planted, I tell him. How

much cotton, I tell him. How much tobacco, I tell him. He said how much money you want.

I said I need two hundred dollars. He said well that ain't going to do you no good. He said

two hundred ain't going to do you no good. He said why don't you get seven hundred dollars.

I said no, I don't want that much. He said well, two hundred ain't going to do you nothing.

He said I'll tell you what you do, he said fix up for seven hundred and if you don't get it you

don't pay no interest on it, you just pay interest on what you get. I said okay. So he said how

much do you want to carry with you now. I said two hundred. So he give me the two

hundred dollars and I come on home. That next week I put my tobacco in, put the ( ) in and

I cure it out and oh, they cured out pretty. The next week I put in another crop and oh, they

cured out pretty. And so I put it in the barn and covered it up and my wife and I got another

lady to help her get it off the sticks, put it in sheets and carry it to Timmonsville to the

market. The market didn't open then but I carried it up there to the man who run the

warehouse and they would always buy it. So I carried up there and the man give me fifty-

eight cents around. I come on back, I went on to the bank and I walked in there. I said how

are you doing. Hi. You come for your other money. I said no, I come to pay you back what

I got from you. He said what. I said I come to pay you back the two hundred dollars I get.

He said really. I said yeah, I said I carried some tobacco to Timmonsville and sell and I say I

got the money, I want to pay that back what I got. He said you're the first man to come in

here. He said I got people I've lend forty-eight thousand dollars to and they ain't come back

to pay me a nickel. I said well, my daddy always tell me the best time to pay a debt is when

Thelmer Bethune 38

you got the money. He said look here, he said another year how about coming and

borrowing money, we'll let you have money to farm with. And don't mess with FHA. I said

okay. So that next year I didn't go to FHA. They send me a card to come down there to fix

up money to farm. I wouldn't go. They sent me three cards. I wouldn't go. So then I went

to the National Bank and I tell the man I said I come to put in for a loan. He said alright. He

said how much do you want to borrow. I said oh, about five thousand and five hundred. He

said Thelmer, that ain't going to be enough money. I said oh, I believe I can make out with

that. He said well, he said I'll tell you, he said I ain't worried about your application passing,

he said but you know I've got to carry it before the board and he said the board comes to

meet Wednesday night and said come back Thursday or Friday and I'll tell you what is what.

I said okay. I went back that Friday and I walk in there and he said you come for your

money. I said oh no, no I just come to see whether the loan passed. He said oh, yes. He said

man, your application went through just like that. He said you know how much money you

can borrow right now if you want it. I said well, I sure hope it will be about five thousand

five hundred dollars. He said oh man, he said you can get forty thousand dollars today if you

want it. I said well, I appreciate the offer I said but I just want five thousand five hundred.

He said you can't do it with that. He said why don't you go on and make out for seven

thousand five hundred. I said okay. So said how much do you want to carry now. I said oh,

I ain't going to carry none now. I said I'll pick up some later. He said alright. So I didn't go

back until April. I walked back in there, I said how about getting twenty-five hundred

dollars. He said alright. He said the other's there when you get ready for it. I tell him okay.

And so I never did get but five thousand five hundred. And I went back that Fall and paid it

and he said how do you get by with such a little bit of money. I said well, I said you know

Thelmer Bethune 39

you've got to live close and I grow practically what I eat. I said I got my own chickens, my

own eggs, my own vegetables. I said my own meat and I said milk cow. I said ain't much

money I need to spend otherwise outside of for my phone. And I said I got a few hogs that I

sell. I said I got a few cows if I sometimes get tight I carry one to the market and sell him.

He said well, the door's open any time you get ready. So then I borrowed from the bank until

I quit farming. I've borrowed from them since that. When I got me a truck I went to the

bank and tell them I said I got a new truck out there and I said I need enough money to pay

for it. He said alright, how much do you need. I said well, I said the balance I still owe on it

is seven thousand dollars. He said alright, I'll make out a check he said. Go and pay for it

and I pay the bank. I don't owe them nothing now. Man tells me said any time you need

money.

113.Turner: Do you still own the land?

114.Bethune: Yeah, oh yeah, I got land. I done made it to go to all my children. I don't own

nary foot now myself. I done got it willed to my children. In other words, they got the deed

and title to it. I give it to them while I'm living. I had four girls and two boys and I had a

surveyor to come out here and surveyed it all like how I want it run. And I got every ( ) land

running ( ). And I give it to them while I was living. They got the deed and title to it.

115.Turner: The land that your grandfather had that was split up, do you have that now? Was

that passed down?

116.Bethune: My daughter got it.

Thelmer Bethune 40

117.Turner: And you bought more land?

118.Bethune: Yeah, I bought this here. Everything I got go to the children. I got it fixed to the

children so when I die they don't have to worry about who going to get this or who going to

get that because they already got it in their name. They got the deed and title to it. The

daughter I let have the house, I had the lawyer to draw up that I got possession for the house

long as I live. I got a place here long as I live. It's her house, she's paying the taxes on it but

I got a place here long as I live. So I said I'll fix it up while I'm living because I've seen too

many people die and leave land and the children run lawsuits and the lawyer get it all in

court. And so I said well I'm going to fix it up while I'm living and my oldest daughter died

but her portion, she had two children, and I give her portion to her two children.

119.Turner: Thank you. (Break in tape.) Talking about you went to Winston-Salem in 1931.

120.Bethune: Yes I did. I was making sixteen cents an hour, seven dollars and twenty cents a

week. I give ( ) charging three dollars for board and I sent my mother the other four dollars

home.

121.Turner: You were working for?

122.Bethune: R.J. Reynolds, ( ) tobacco plant. Worked in the plug department where they

made plug tobacco. I was one of the ( ) boys, sixteen cents an hour. That was big money

back then. Yeah how I'd get extra money to spend I ( ) eleven cents. One guy was ( ) a

plug of tobacco and something stick my hand. I ( ) tobacco stick to my hand. I said what ( )

in this tobacco. I went to pull it out and two fellahs were over running the press said no, no

Thelmer Bethune 41

don't pull it out. Said show it to the bossman. Said man he'll give you a half hour for that.

And so I showed it to him and he take the pliers and he pulled it out and he tell me he said

any time you find a plug of tobacco with a stick in it or a piece of wire he said bring it to me

he said and I'll give you a half hour for it. I said okay. He said this would ruin somebody's

mouth and they can sue the company you know. And so then I started picking up sometimes

two hours extra and sometimes it would be three hours extra I'd pick up during the week

working there you know. And man I had extra money then. Sometimes I'd have, instead of

having eleven cents sometimes I would have fifty cents then I'd ride the streetcar then and I'd

go in the movie and come back out.

123.Turner: Were the movies segregated? I mean did you have to sit in a certain area?

124.Bethune: Yeah. We went upstairs and whites downstairs. And I'd go there, every Saturday

evening I'd go up there to the movie.

125.Turner: And you were what, sixteen?

126.Bethune: Yeah, un-huh. I was sixteen when I started to working at R.J. Reynolds Tobacco

Plant. And I went to the employment office. I went there I believe it was four days before I

got hired and the man come in there looking like that and he said I'm looking for a couple of

boys and ( ). He said no. So the gentleman told him I'm ready to work, I'm ready to work.

So I was sitting in there and he said you, come here. I got up and I walked over there. He

said do you want to work. I said yes sir. I said I want to work. He said where are you from.

I said I'm from South Carolina. He said oh, you's a good worker then. He said well, come

here. He said you take this here, he give me a note. He said come here. Said take it and you

Thelmer Bethune 42

see that building down there, go in that door there and they'll tell you, show you what to do.

So I carried it over there and handed it to the man and he looked at it and he give it to another

fellah in there and then the other fellah said come here. Said go in this here room here and

said take your clothes off. I said all of them. He said yeah, all of them. So the doctor come

in there and checked me. He said, yeah, you're in good health. He said alright, you check

out good. Said here, he give me a strip. He said come here. He said you know where ( )

factory at. I tell him no sir, I just leave to come up here. He said well come here and let me

show you. He said go down one block, turn, go down two blocks, then turn back right and

go one block and he said you'll walk right into the factory. And he said go in there and give

the bossman this note. So I went there and I handed it to the boss. I'll never forget it, his

name was Mr. Will. He was from Georgia. I handed it to him and he looked at it and he said

alright. He said come here. And he had another fellah spraying tobacco. This bossman

called him Shorty. Come here, Shorty. Said take this boy and show him how to spray this

tobacco. He said you go, you're going to work with Shorty. He showed me how to spray

tobacco. We'd catch four plugs in each hand and you catch four like that and you do them

like that, catch four and do them like that and it's sprayed out you know. But now if you

miss and grab three instead of four you've got to go back and pick up one and put back there.

But if you learn to get four every time you see. And so I worked with him until twelve and

at twelve o'clock eat lunch and so I didn't carry no lunch because I went to the employment

office, I didn't have no lunch. And so then the bossman said you didn't go get your lunch. I

said I didn't bring no lunch. I said I didn't know I was going to get a job. He said wait a

minute. He said I got more lunch than I'm going to eat. He said come on, I'll give you some

lunch. I said no, I'm not that hungry. He said no, come on. He said I've got more lunch than

Thelmer Bethune 43

I'm going to eat. And so I'll never forget it, he had some biscuits and cheese sandwich and

then had a jelly sandwich and he give me two of them. So now I had to go back to work and

then he put me by myself then. He put Shorty on another job, place in there. I said great, I

said I don't know if I can do the job. And so the two colored fellahs was running the press.

They said oh, look here, you can do it. Just take your time, said don't get nervous, said just

take your time. Said you'll learn it in no time. Shoot, that next day I was racing them fellahs

in there spraying that tobacco. And so the man, I worked there two months and the man,

bossman tell me, he said Bethune, he said you's a good worker. He said you know, said your

state's next to mine. He said my state, I come from Georgia and South Carolina is next to

Georgia. He said you know, he said I'm going to give you a raise. He said I'm going to give

you a two cent raise this week. And he said them other boys over there, some of them have

been here a year and I ain't going to give them no raise. Said they don't get but the same

sixteen cents. He said now you ain't doing no more work than what they're doing, you ain't

doing a bit more. But he said you, I notice you, when you sprayed your tobacco up you sit

on your table and when the next sheet come down you know to spray, but them other boys

run and sprayed their's up and then they'd run up on the other end of the factory where the

women was up there putting the stamps on the tobacco. At that time they was putting these

metal stamps on the tobacco. Now we were making apple sun cured tobacco and they had a

little metal stamp with apple printed on it and had two little sticks in it to push down in the

tobacco you see.

127.Turner: Women did that?

Thelmer Bethune 44

128.Bethune: Yeah. And them boys would run up there and blab, blab, blab with them women

you know and they couldn't do their work you know. And every time they'd run. They'd ( )

the tobacco alright and they'd run up there you know with these women and run back down

there and do their work. But I would just sit there on the chair, I wouldn't go. He said I'm

going to give you a raise, two cents. He said you'll get eighteen cents an hour this time. And

he said you know in another month I'll give you another raise and he said if you be here long

enough he said I'm going to have you getting what them two fellahs on the press. He said

now they're getting twenty-five cents an hour. He said I like the way you work. He said one

thing about you, he said you stays on your job and if them other fellahs needs you, if one of

them has to go to the restroom, you're right there to help the other fellah with the press. Or

one fellah maybe had to go get a drink of water, I'd catch that thing, I'd see how he would do

it you know and I could throw that thing up there just like them fellahs were doing it, you

know. The bossman said I like the way you work. He said man, you're good. I got eighteen

cents and them other fellahs had been there a year working for the same sixteen cents.

129.Turner: Were there any unions?

130.Bethune: No, wasn't no such thing as no union back then.

131.Turner: Okay.

132.Bethune: I tell you, I was lucky. You know one thing I figure if you're going to work I

don't just go out there to, you know, but I take my time and I just stay on the job. Like some

fellahs, running over yonder and ( ) with them girls up there that was putting stamps in the

tobacco. I wouldn't never go up there. I stayed down.

Thelmer Bethune 45

133.Turner: When you were a teenager in Winston, did you go out, did you socialize?

134.Bethune: No, no, no. I'd go to work and come back home. I didn't drink.

135.Turner: Okay, I'm going to stop this.