i r is c h en...i r is c h en from tiger parenting to peaceful parenting and unschooling: one...

Iris Chen From Tiger Parenting to Peaceful Parenting and Unschooling: One

Mother’s Journey to Self Awareness

Welcome to Happily Family. I'm Cecilia. Hilkey. I'm Jason Hilkey, and we're delighted to today to have Iris Chen with us. Iris is a blogger, unschooling mom and founder of the untiring movement. After seeing the negative effects of Tiger parenting on her relationship with their children, she began to deconstruct from her authoritarian parent ways. Now she's on a mission to empower others to untiger by promoting self awareness, peaceful parenting and education freedom for children. Welcome, Iris. It's great to have you. Thanks for being here, Iris!

Thank you for having me. I wanted to ask you about this transition that you made from being a tiger Mom to maybe we could call it being more of a peaceful parent. Um, did it happen all at once? Was it a gradual process? What provoked that change? That's like three questions all at one go. Um, I would say that I'm still in process, and I think that's why I chose the word untigering. In terms of its still being a process, it's not ah, finished destination.

It's something that I'm constantly learning how to do. So, um, but I think there was a point when I went to like a parenting conference and learn more about brain development and child development and what to

expect of kids. Um, realistic expectations of kids. And I realized that what I was doing was totally exacerbating the problems that I was trying to get rid of in terms of. I was trying to nip certain behaviors in the bud and like, come down really hard and you know, use punishment, use whatever means necessary.

And so there was one point when I went cold turkey and I said, Okay, I'm not spanking anymore because I see what that's doing to my child. He's not responding well to it. I thought this was the way to go. I thought this was what I needed to do and realizing that it was totally damaging my relationship with him and like, overstimulating his brain right? And so there was that point when I do that when I said no to spanking. But I mean, it's definitely been a process that was probably like five years ago or something,

but, um, since then it's been a gradual process of me deconstructing my understanding of what my role is as a parent and what I expect for my children and how to just build that connection and that relationship instead of using these behavior modification tools that I was used to using. So this is an interesting conversation because we hear this from other families that come to us and talk about like, Hey, I this I was raised in this one way and I'd like to change it, but I don't know what that looks like.

And, you know, for some parents, it's They came from a more dominant paradigm where they were raised in and so they don't know what to do. So the opposite they go with is just big, permissive parents because they're just like, Well, it's not that. Then I'll just do the opposite. But that doesn't feel very good to them. And so they're trying to navigate this and

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try and figure this out for yourself. How you said, Okay, I want to change things and you became informed and you're continuing.

Like I think I would say most parents, they all parents, we're constantly evolving, right? One reason is because our kids are constantly changing, right? So what is it that guides you like? What is the do you have founding principles that you use his touch points. Do you have directions that you set out for yourself? Like, what is it that gives you some direction in figuring this out that you could you could share with others? I think nowadays my touch point is really connection and relationship where it wasn't before before it was I have these ideals of how I wanted my kids to behave,

and so it was guiding them to meet those ideals. But now, um, that's changed, and I think my priority is really to connect with them, to know them, to understand them, to honor them and respect them to realize they are their own people. And I think that's better process for me because I never thought of kids that way, you know? But then, as I've learned more, as I've read more really learning to, um, just treat children as human beings as well as people worthy of dignity and worthy of respect.

And so I think this were also respect is something that I'm learning to do because that's not usually, um, and I something that we apply as a parent to our children. We often expect that from our children. So learning to respect them. That, but also in a way where I'm providing guidance. I'm not like like he said, it's not permissive, it's not. I'm letting them run. What run wild. But to know that often times my own expectations off, how I


want them to behave are based on my desires and not really what's best for them.

So I was a connection and respect I wanted to ask, cause we've had so many different experts come and speak it happily family conferences. And they've been from all different cultures. Um, European, American, uh, African American. Yeah, we had. We had a Muslim mom parenting expert talk, and she grew up in Jordan. And this concept of moving from power over to power with parenting is certainly not, um, limited to Asian cultures because it's everywhere. Um, but I do wonder if there is some part of it that in your process that you had to get over that issue uniquely Asian or Chinese.

Yeah, I think, definitely. I think there are certain just cultural paradigms that informed the way a lot of each in families, and I don't want to generalize, but just in terms of my experience. I'm Chinese American, second generation and so there's a lot of experiences that are very common and familiar to other ah, East Asian, specifically second generation families. And, um so yeah, needing to. Address those and think about it in terms of bigger cultural problems or issues that we need to address and just because it is part of our culture.

Rather, whether or not that's like some Confucian ideals or, um, you know, verbal, like just being really harsh, having very strict parents, certain things that that we might associate with Asian culture. Um, I also want to be able to challenge those and say that we have the responsibility to help shape culture and so we can change it and the toxic parts of our culture. We can question, and we can challenge a week and


grow. But I also don't want it to be like we need to look like the white family because we we won't look like that.

And we don't look like that. There are parts of our culture that, um, are really beautiful and that I want to honor. And so how how can I do both do that intention and really saying no to those things that are not serving. Our community is not serving our families, but also celebrating the things that are so, yeah, Do you have a story or an example that you could share?

Cause it's just a really fascinating topic to me of how we can preserve our own culture, traditions, heritage rituals,

um, the good parts that that really serve us. But then, um, re interpreter reinvent to redo or,

um, relate to them differently so that it works for our family. Do you have a story to share?

Yeah, being just something that comes to mind is that family is really important in Asian cultures and the sense of community.

And, um, the problem with that is it can often be very suffocating, or there's a lot of investment and lack of boundaries.


And so the way I sort of relate to it now is family is still hugely important to me and the not just my immediate family,

but extended family. And so how can I still have that value and still honor my parents? Still,

you know, I have a certain difference to my elders, but in a way that isn't oppressive, in a way that comes from me and my own heart instead of distance.

Social expectation. So there are ways that I still, um, you know, defer to my parents or want to honor them in certain ways or,

you know, whatever that is. But for me at least tapping into my own desire to do that instead of getting into the expectation of like,

Oh, it's my duty, I have to do this. I don't have a choice. So that's one way where I have learned to,

um, have boundaries and draw those lines, but also to celebrate those values that are important to my culture.

Yeah, I You said something really great that I wanna highlight and maybe you want to jump into, um,


maybe we'll say the same thing you talked about when you're doing those things that are from your culture, that you're not doing it out of a sense of obligation or have to as much as you're doing it out of a sense of desire to maybe honor your parents or respect your parents or something like that.

Did I get that? Yeah. Yeah, that's a really nice distinction, because on the outside, it looks the same.

Yes, but internally, your experience of that is completely different. Is that what you wanted to? Pretty much what it But in a more practical sense of like what?

What kinds of things like that. What comes to mind immediately for me is like celebrations, often a very cultural.

And I'm wondering if an example of that would be like holidays or certain celebrations or certain, like milestones in the life of a child or a certain ways of get togethers like what?

What does that look like? What are those things that come up that you kind of like? OK,

so this is something that I've grown up with, and I'm choosing this not out of obligation. But I'm choosing this because it's part of my my desire for my family.


And it fits my my desire for a relationship like you had talked about and respect. Yeah, Well,

part of it is that I have been living overseas for so long, so I actually lived really far from the rest of my family,

so they were very clear boundaries. Like I I couldn't do a lot of the things that perhaps they wanted me to do or whatever.

So it was actually, especially in the early years of my family life, with my kids and stuff,

that it was really easy to set those boundaries because we just went around. And now that I'm moving back,

I'm needing to navigate those a little bit more to figure out what that looks like for my family. Um,

but I think in terms of specifics, like, I just need to be very clear about what makes sense for me and my family and what I'm willing to do.

So my family, I get together with my extended family every week and now pretty much and, um,


I'm really loving it because I haven't had that experience in a long time. So that's something that I want to do and that I'm willing to do.

But if there's something that, um, you know that my kids and I need to do that, I can't make it like I don't I also don't have a problem,

sort of disappointing them are saying I can't make it this week. So, um, in terms of specific ways,

we celebrate and stuff were also navigating that because there was a way that I did it with my immediate family back in China and now coming together with my extended family,

needing to sort of negotiate and say, OK, how can we share some of these traditions in a way that's meaningful for all of us?

So I can see how that there's a bit of pressure on that. I mean, the pressure I would imagine on on yourself to how how to do that with the extended family so that it's not there not being disappointed because we still have that relationship with our extended family,

right? Like we're negotiating that were also negotiate our relationship with our immediate family and our kids and our spouse and their family.


It's a There's all this negotiation or consideration that goes into that and that it could be, I can imagine,

especially from a cultural standpoint. It could be challenging to do that. And what I hear is that you look at him and you're making mindful choices.

You're making conscious choices around them and and that's that's the harder way to do it rather than just This is what we do,

because this is what we've always done and you know, we're gonna do it that way, so it's not necessarily the easy road that you're taking.

And yet when I hear is that that's what's important to you is that it really is true to who you're trying to raise in your family,

and that's that's challenging. I can imagine. Can I ask a question? So then what do you do with those challenge,

like, Do? How does that feel? Do you feel lonely at times? Do you feel just like what the like that I'm sure it feels good.

There's times where you're like, Yeah, that would that really nailed it. Your life is exactly what I wanted.


But then what do you do when you're like hand? No one else is doing it this way, Like my culture is not doing it this way.

And maybe maybe your spouse support you. Maybe they don't. I don't know. But what do you do in those cases?

How do you How do you support yourself? How do you rally without, I think, Because I lived overseas as like a foreigner and trying to even though I'm ethnically Chinese.

But I, you know, was a foreigner in China and so I lived a counter cultural life. Anyways,

I was sort of like this weird person that didn't really fit into Chinese culture, but I wasn't in American culture,

either. And so what I was able to do as a foreigner living overseas because I was really able to sort of curate the life that that served my family the best.

And so we didn't do. We didn't live life the way the locals lived, and we didn't live life the way like the expats lived,

either. We just chose different things that really made says for our family, and I'm really thankful for that time because coming back into like,


American culture, where my husband and I grew up, we still have that lens where we don't have to live the same as everybody else.

So I I'm unschooling, my kids, you know, very few people to that. Very few Asians do that particularly,

and but to me, that's less scary. Maybe because I've had this experience of living overseas and having this,

this understanding that I don't need to be the same as everybody else. And yes, it can be lonely,

but I can find those people that have the same values that share this same paradigms. That same desire for the family and bill community that way.

That's great. Um, so you brought up home schooling and I wanted to ask, ah, a little bit about achievement because I think one of the the images of tiger parenting,

at least on the outside, is like, Oh, that's what you do when you want your kids to be high achieving.

And you've not only rejected the tiger parenting kind of power over paradigm, but you're like, hey, and we're gonna unschooled too,


just like taking it like that much farther and maybe describe for me what on schooling is but also like,

how does that How does that show up for you? Like that really is like a different approach than what you would think of with Tiger.

Mom. Yeah, and And after you describe what unschooling means, what is your What has been your experience with watching your kids achieve stuff?

Okay, I'll try that. Remember? All the ashes? Um, I think for me unschooling means that I tried to follow my kids lead in terms of their interest in learning what they aren't interested in learning and learning through life so that there's plenty of just education and learning that happens by our daily task that we need to accomplish so again,

not that power over type of view of education where I'm the teacher or I'm the adult, and I have an idea of what is necessary for you to learn.

And so here these are the things that you need to learn so sort of rejecting that paradigm and really seeing more like a partnership Where,

um, I I might have some ideas and I might offer them to you, but they're there needs to be buy in there needs to be trust.


So again that connection and that relationship, but also that respect Where I honor, um, their interests honor their leanings so that I can help foster their own interests.

So, um, yeah. So, of course, for each individual, for each family, that looks different for me.

I started this about two and 1/2 years ago, and I think there comes a like a process where you need to deschool.

But they call it deschool because most of us have grown up in traditional school situations. So we come at home schooling with those paradigms still with the structures.

It's like, Okay, we need a schedule. We need a routine We need to divide up learning into subjects and deschooling.

This sort of, you know, pulling apart that and changing our idea about what education can mean. And so,

um, I think it's very anxiety producing. Actually, it's not an easy process, especially for those of us who have,


you know, growing up in school. And you just assumed that, you know, Children need to go to school,

and this is a path that will lead to success on. And then to not have that safety net anymore,

and to sort of, like go out into the wild and try to figure, figure out what things are gonna look like.

So I think for me there has been a lot of doubt at times and anxiety, and it's like,

What are you doing? And I think in those moments, sometimes I just try to like, you know,

enforce more control or is like, Okay, it's not okay for you guys to be doing this all the time.

We need a, you know, change gears. But then I, you know, listen or talk to other highschoolers who have been doing this for a while,

and they sort of, you know, it helps to talk me down a little, talked through to my doubts,


my fears and just trust the process, because I guess I believe that, um, that kids are natural learners and they're naturally motivated to learn.

And oftentimes it's the adults or whatever, whoever that get in the way of their natural desire to learn.

And so, for meet us, step out of that, like, not create obstacles. to allow them to pursue the things that they really love,

but also not to judge the things that they really love. Um, so right now my kids are really into gaming and into Minecraft and fortnite and all those things,

and those things don't appeal to me. And there's also a lot of stigma about those things may be in the academic world.

Right? So, um, so I do feel some anxiety about those sometimes. But then, um,

realizing that education doesn't have to fit into those little boxes that they that there are things that they're learning or,

um, yeah, that don't look like school. So and I think it would be interesting, Kind uhm the heels of what's to say he was talking about is


what does achievement look like for you when you see our Do you see the achievements that your kids were experiencing in this process?

Or does it just look different? Is it like it's not like, obviously you're not getting grades right?

And they're not getting prizes and awards and like, you know what? But that is, I think,

historically been the Tiger Mom kind of measure is, you know, like achievements, achieve what you've achieved.

What does that look like for you when it comes to home schooling or unschooling? In this case, what is it that you use as a way to,

I don't know, maybe to replace the achievement or to feel that achievement or to see the achievement. What's that like for you?

I think I've actually tried to avoid measuring their learning because that is another thing that actually kills a lot of joy and learning where kids know they're being evaluated.

So they're not learning for the sake of learning. They're not learning for the joy of it or they're not the flow they're learning because they're being evaluated because they're being assessed.


And so I actually want to sort of remove that, that sort of outside gaze from them, where they're they're not trying to produce or to achieve,

for for my sake, for me to give them a pat on the back or like saying Good job you're learning.

I can I can assess its look and measure it. It makes me because that's because that's really for me,

for me to feel good about, okay, that that sort of eases some of my anxiety, but that's not really for them.

So, um, needing to step back from those types of measurements and just trust that it's happening and because when I when I purposely tried to do that,

then I get freaked out. But when I'm sort of you know, letting things happen and observing more like observing and not assessing,

then I feel like, Yes, I can see them grow in this area, or I can see how they're using math concepts in this way that they would have never learned in school or in a more real world way or,


um, they they have a certain type of comprehension, like we were just listening to a musical and how my younger son could sort of pick up the nuances of what was happening through the lyrics in the song.

And we were really amazed because he had never seen it. That was like the first time he heard it.

So So just noticing that they're picking up on things. But that's not something that you could necessarily like assess in,

like a test or something. Is this something you noticed by living life with them? Yeah, like what you're talking about.

You want things you said was trust that you're trusting that they're learning what they need to learn, and you're trusting that like they want to learn like there's,

ah, joy and a love for learning that's happening there. And I also just wanna underscore what you said is that looking for those achievements and that scoring and all the measures that's for you.

Hey, let's And it's really like a false sense of where they are. I mean, it's it's a symbol of how they did on may be a test,


which doesn't actually measure that much. It measures may be what they can like, memorize in kind of a short term way.

Um, I it just reminds me of one of the things that Jason are known for is that we used to teach in the same preschool classroom,

and now granted, these were 3 to 5 year old, but it was an emergent curriculum where we were creating the curriculum with the kids.

Nontraditional is a non official school, obviously. And, um, I think I was probably having a conversation with my uncle Thanksgiving,

and he was like, Well, how you don't assess the kids and how how do you know how well they're doing?

It's like we're with these kids for hours and hours every week. Of course, I know how you know Sally is doing and in Math and in reading concepts and getting along with her friends.

Of course, I know, like where she's struggling and developmentally like what's emerging for her. I just watched and I can't see,

And I I worked with her through like, you know, like little things, and that was how it was like for all kids.


Like, I didn't need some sort of outside assessment for somebody to tell me like what our kids were doing or what our students were doing like I knew we knew just from looking on.

So what? When when you are supporting your kids, how do you support them in trying hard? Like the idea of,

like, giving their best. What? What does that look like for you? Yeah, I was just talking,

chatting with somebody online about this and how how this lady said that her she wanted really wanted her kid to,

like, do well in math because, you know, doing well in math means you you learn grit and you learn hard work and all that stuff.

And I was like, Well, you can learn that without doing that. There's lots of context for it.

Um, but I think one thing that I learned from Angela Duckworth's who wrote Grit and I remember reading in her book that one of the main factors with Grit was interest was the motivation to persevere and to achieve this thing that really mattered to the person.


And so for me and my kids, following their interest in following Okay, you want to do this?

You have this goal. So how can I help you to achieve that? And even when things get hard,

too, not just throw in the towel. But what are the things that are, You know, one of the obstacles.

How can I support you? But the main thing is that it's something that they want to do, not something that I'm imposing on them because that will teach them hard work.

You know, um, but definitely that's a character trait that I do want a fluster in my kids,

but doing in a way that is in partnership with them, because is it a goal or an achievement that they want to achieve?

So how do I help encourage them and support them than that? Yeah, I like the what you're talking about there the intrinsic motivation for them rather than this extrinsic motivation of me like saying here,

I'm gonna get you to do that or this is what you should like. And that's, you know,


for life skills. That's what we really want our kids to be having the intrinsic motivation, things that they're interested in.

Having grit around that is gonna be a whole lot more life, lifelong type skill. Then it would be for us to say this is what you do.

This or you're not. We're gonna do this because you can learn grit. Yeah. I wanted to talk to you.

Um, as we're wrapping up one of the headlines on your blogged caught my eye, and I was wondering if you could share the story of what happened when you or your son asked.

you to limit his screen time. And you said no. You sure that? Sure. So this was part of our unschooling process,

and screens were sort of, you know, I wasn't totally comfortable with giving them free rate on screens.

I wanted to control how much time they were all screens, how they used screens and their devices and everything.


But I think just as I dug more into unschooling and the principles of it just trusting our kids and learning just giving them the tools to self direct themselves and manage themselves,

I realized that that wasn't really consistent with what I believed about education. What I believed about my kids and their intrinsic motivation.

And so we sat them down and we said, OK, we're going to let you guys have the freedom to use screens as you wish.

Whenever you wish. Um, and they're like, what's the catch. They didn't believe us, right?

But then the what happened was they were like, experimenting with it. They were like, pushing the boundaries.

You know, they're spending hours and hours doing whatever they were doing on the screens, And I really had to hold back and and not jump in and say,

OK, this is not healthy. You know, throughout this experiment, we're going back to limits. Um,

And then there was a point when my oldest son came to me and was asking me or to saying,


Um, yeah, like, can you Can you make a rule about this about screen times? Like I liked it better before because I'm feeling a little bit out of control right now.

Um, but what he wanted was he wanted, uh, the same rule for him and his brother and for us to sort of like coming in and stop him,

you know? And, um the and I said I wasn't going to do that, and I sort of got flak for this from a lot of other parents because they were saying Well,

he was asking for support. He didn't give him support, which isn't true, But what I wasn't going to do was I wasn't going to use,

like, an outside arbitrary rule or live it. So what I was going to do was I was going to,

um queue him and ask him, like, how are you feeling? Do you need a break? You know,

let's go out and play. Why don't we do something else? But it wasn't going to be like,


Stop. Turn that off right now. And so yeah, I think wanting to give them sort of the the medium to practice exercising some of their self control and in the context of relationship in the context of safety and guidance from me.

So it wasn't like we weren't saying anything or commenting or trying to guide them, but it was in the context of relationship,

but also letting them fail, sometimes letting them feel the discomfort of hours and hours on the screen without moving your body so that they could come to the conclusion themselves that I need a break,

you know, or that made from you feel gross. I'm gonna try to do something I'm gonna like,

go draw now, you know? And so I think as parents, we need to be okay with them failing sometimes or learning how to navigate that instead of just jumping into early to give them the answers that we think are right.

But giving them the opportunity to to navigate some of that themselves so that they understand the reasons for these limits that they place on themselves.

It's not like an outside limit. It's like their own self control, their own understanding of why that's not good for them.


Yeah, I really like what you've done because it's not that you didn't support him. And it's not that you said permissive parenting.

Like Like go all the time every day. Figure yeah. Figured out completely on your own. But you helped him to tune into his own internal wisdom,

his own body. How are you feeling? Do you want to do something different, like here? Checkin like take a little moment to pause.

Is this working for you? Yeah. Oh, is it? Is it not? Okay? What could you do differently?

Which is not unlike how we might help a child who comes home from Halloween trick or treating, who's just got a bunch of candy and they're one indeed,

a bunch of sugar like check in Is that gonna work? And, um, it's ah, it's It's a fine line,

like when to kind of set a limit and when to, um when to not do it. And there are no easy answers here in a much that suggesting that my way or your way Iris is like the perfect way or anything.

But it is. It's important, I think, its parents to dwell in these questions and to think carefully about what are my values.


How do I want my kids to be in 30 years was what's gonna be the thing that's gonna help them develop those skills that I want them to develop?

And and ultimately, it sounds like, at least so far, this experiment screen time has proven to be somewhat fruitful.

Yeah, yeah, and again is something that I need to constantly navigate and adjust because, like like we said,

the needs of our family changes. Our kids interest change. And so I think it's more like a dialogue instead of something that set in stone,

you know, like we need to constantly be in tune and adjusting to what's what we observe. What is happening with our kids.

So I think we went. We did that for a while, and then in terms of just like and this screen time.

And then I realized that, um, that I wasn't connecting as much with my kids. So then we decided as a family that after dinner would be more family time instead of like,


we would try to stay off screens and just spend time together playing games. And so I wouldn't call that a rule in terms of something that I'm enforcing.

But it was just a value that we wanted to connect more as a family, and we decided on that together,

and they bought into it and agreed to it. And there's always exceptions, right if they're trying to connect with the friend overseas or something,

Um, but again, I think it's one of those things that that we need to constantly have. They take the pulse on and be adjusting.

Yeah, I know. What I hear is something that we started this interview with, where you have these thes Touchstones around relationship and respect for them,

and you just gave the example, like how you notice that your relationship was being affected and so Let's rethink this.

Let's talk about this. Let's figure this out and you have the respect to then go to him and say,

Hey, here's the thing that I'm looking for And you guys were worked out this way of doing it differently.


And I really appreciate that and that we're constantly using, constantly changing using those Touchstones. And as we're wrapping up here.

Is there anything else that you would like to you'd like to say? Or is there Ah, big ask that you'd like to make for our audience here,

Um, I think this in terms of for other, um, parents who are trying to untiger who come from very authoritarian cultures and family structures that it is possible,

and just to take it slow. Take those baby steps and, um yeah, I just It is possible to break those patterns.

And so I just really want to encourage people to not be intimidated and say like, Oh, that's for those people over there.

Um, yeah, and then for just a way to contact me, um, you can find me on Facebook at Ah,

my Untigering page. You can just search for untigering and also my blog, untigering.com awesome we'll include links here for people.


And I encourage people to go and check out what her what she has in her blog. There's super value in there as well as the community that you're creating on Facebook.

So check out the link here in the speaker Notes. Thanks for taking the time to talk to us here,

Iris. It's been fun talking to you about tough subjects. And I just want to acknowledge your courage in making the changes and and really being willing to talk about these things that I think some people may want to avoid because they're not easy to talk about.

And I thank you for supporting other people and having that courage as well. And thanks for being here with us.

Thank you so much. Alright. Bye bye.


i r is c h en...i r is c h en from tiger parenting to peaceful parenting and unschooling: one...

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