HISTORY OF THE

U. S. FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION

INTERVIEW BETWEEN: P. I . John J . McManus

R e t i r e d D i r e c t o r A t l a n t a D i s t r i c t

C larence D. Sch i f fn ian R e t i r e d Chemist A t l a n t a D i s t r i c t

and

James Harvey Young Emory U n i v e r s i t y

Wal lace Janssen Food & Drug A d m i n i s t r a t i o n

May 10, 1968

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. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH." EDUCATION. AND WELFARE PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE

TAPE INDEX SHEET TAPE NUMBERS: 1 & 2

GENERAL TOPIC OF INTERVIEW: H i s t o r y o f t h e Food & Druq A d m i n i s t r a t i o n

DATE: May 10, 1968 PLACE: A t l a n t a , Georq ia LENGTH: 180 M inu tes

INTERVIEWEES INTERVIEWER

NAMES: John J . McManus NAME: James Harvey Younq

C la rence D . S c h i f f m a n Emory U n i v e r s i t y

A t l a n t a , Georq ia A t l a n t a , Georq ia

FDA SERVICE DATES: McManus - 1908 t o l g 5 3 - RETIRED: Yes

Sch i f fman - 1929 t o 1 q a . I .. Yes

TITLE AT TIME OF RETIREMENT: McManus D i r e c t o r , A t l a n t a D i s t r i c t

Sch i f f rnan Chemist , A t l a n t a : D i s t r i c t

TAPE SIDE EST.TIME PAGE SUBJECT NO. NO. ON TAPE NO.

I n t r o d u c t o r y Remarks McManus B i o g r a p h i c a l Remarks Sch i f fman B i o g r a p h i c a l Remarks The F i r s t I n s p e c t o r s P a s t e u r i z a t i o n o f M i l k - E a r l y I n v e s t i g a t i o n s V inegar - A d u l t e r a t i o n I n v e s t i g a t i o n Dr . W i l e y W a l t e r G. Campbell More About ~ a r l ~ Mi 1 k Work P u b l i c i t y - E a r l y A t t i t u d e Toward Crude Drugs O y s t e r and Shr imp Canning H i p o l i t e Case ( B o r i c A c i d i n Eggs) E l i x i r o f S u l f a n i l a ~ n i d e i n v e s t i g a t i o n Tomato Canning - S a n i t a t i o n

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TAPE S I D E EST.TIME PAGE NO. NO. ON TAPE NO.

2 6 29

30 31 34 41 42 44 47 49 50 53 55 57 58 59

63 64 6 5

70 72 73 76

82 83

87

Page 2 McManus/Young In te rv iew

SUBJECT

Economic Cheats O i l of Winterqreen and O i l o f Sweet B i r c h

~ d u l t e r a t i o n i n v e s t i g a t i o n . Cont inuat ion o f Above Subject A d u l t e r a t i o n o f Pepper Sherley Amendment I n v e s t i g a t i o n s - Patent Medicines Inspect ion A u t h o r i t y Under 1906 Act "Secret Formulas" Hazards t o Inspectors - Various Ear l y I nves t i ga t i ons Discussion o f Old Photographs Poem About D r . Wi ley Fu r the r Discussion o f Photographs Horse Meat I n v e s t i g a t i o n Fur ther Discussion o f Photographs Dr. Paul Dunbar Charles Crawford Ea r l y Comunica t ions Between Inspectors and

Chemists - General Discussion o f Ea r l y Employees o f Bureau o f Chemistry

S u l l i v a n Case ( I l l e g a l OTC Sale o f Drugs) Warm Springs Case Re la t ions With U.S. A t to rney - Enforcement

Phi losophy Anton J. Carlson Testimony i n Court Fur ther Discussion o f Photographs Inspectors - Dress - Travel Condi t ions - Ear l y

Inspectors - "Shopping Bag" Sampl i n g Puerto Rico - Coveratjs O f General Discussions o f Condi t ions Under Which

Inspectors and Chemists Worked i n the Ear l y Days End o f Tape - End o f I n t e r v i e w

D r . Young:

We'.re having a conve r sa t ion t h i s morning, May 1 0 , 1968,

i n t h e o f f i c e s of t h e Food and Drug Adminis t ra t ion i n A t l a n t a ,

Georgia. Four of u s have m e t t o g e t h e r t o t a l k about t h e o l d t i m e s

and t h e Food and Drug Admin i s t r a t i on , e s p e c i a l l y i n t h e f i e l d .

Wallace J ans sen has come down from Washington where he r e c e n t l y

assumed r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s a s H i s t o r i a n i n t h e Food and Drug Admini-

s t r a t i o n , and M r . John J. McManus i s he re who l i v e s i n Decatur ,

Georgia , t h e former D i s t r i c t D i r e c t o r of t h e A t l a n t a D i s t r i c t ,

Food and Drug Admin i s t r a t i on , and a l s o M r . C la rence D . Schiffman

who, f o r many y e a r s , was a chemist i n t h e A t l a n t a o f f i c e working

wi th Mr. McManus and be fo re t h a t , i n Savannah, and be fo re t h a t ,

i n New York. I am Harvey Young of t h e Department of H i s to ry

a t Emory U n i v e r s i t y and s o , w e ' l l j u s t s t a r t o u t t o t a l k about

some of t h e s e e a r l y expe r i ences , hoping t o g e t in format ion t h a t

w i l l p rov ide c o l o r and background f o r t h e h i s t o r y of t h e Food

and Drug Admin i s t r a t i on . M r . McManus, how about your g i v i n g

your b i o g r a p h i c a l background i n r e l a t i o n t o your work wi th t h e

Food and Drug Admin i s t r a t i on f o r u s r i g h t a t t h e s t a r t .

M r . M . : Well , I was a h o s p i t a l pharmacis t f o r s e v e r a l y e a r s , and

t h e n a couple y e a r s I was i n a p r e s c r i p t i o n department

of a l a r g e d r u g s t o r e . But I d i d n o t g e t c l o s e enough

t o t h e commercial f r o n t of t h e s t o r e t o r e a l i z e how many

p r o p r i e t a r y medicines were being o f f e r e d under r a t h e r

s t r i k i n g c l a i m s and names. I t seemed, a t t h a t t ime ,

t h a t t h e emphasis w a s on v e g e t a b l e d r u g s ; some of them

w e r e of a l l e g e d Ind ian o r i g i n and some had m y s t i c a l

c l a i m s o f t h e i r own, and it was v e r y s t r i k i n g when t h e

Food and Drugs A c t came i n i n 1907 t o n o t e t h a t t hey

began t o t a k e t h e word "cure" o f f many t h i n g s and j u s t

change it t o "remedy" t h i n k i n g t h a t t h a t was t h e cover-

a l l o u t f o r meet ing t.he law.

D r . Y . : When was it you moved from t h e pharmacy i n t o t h e Food

and Drug Adminis t ra t ion?

M r . M : That was i n 1908. I r e c a l l t h a t , a f t e r pas s ing t h e

Massachuse t t s and Rhode I s l a n d Pharmacy Boards, I g o t

i n t e r e s t e d through a v i s i t of t h e i n s p e c t o r a t Boston,

t h e l a t e George H. Adams, who c a l l e d a t t h e s t o r e , and I

found o u t t h a t he had been w i t h t h e same p o s i t i o n a s I

was, a former h o s p i t a l pharmacis t and a p r e s c r i p t i o n man

i n t h i s same p l a c e , s o t h a t g o t m e i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e

Food and Drugs Act and, when t h e C i v i l Se rv i ce announced

an examinat ion, I took a two-day examinat ion which re-

s u l t e d i n my being o f f e r e d t h e p o s i t i o n a s Drug I n s p e c t o r ,

and s o I r e p o r t e d t o Washington on August 1 0 , 1908.

D r . Y.: L e t t s l e t M r . Schiffman s a y something s o we can see about

how s e n s i t i v e t h e mike i s now, and t h e n w e ' l l come on

back and f o l l o w your c a r e e r from t h a t p o i n t on. When

was i t t h a t you came w i t h t h e Food and Drug Adminis t ra t ion ,

M r . Schiffman?

M r . S . : I e n t e r e d i n t h e Food and Drug Admin i s t r a t i on i n 1929 ,

i n t h e N e w York D i s t r i c t .

D r . Y . : A s a chemist?

M r . S.: A s a chemis t . 0

D r . Y . : And what background t r a i n i n g have you had?

M r . S . : Bes ides c o l l e g e t r a i n i n g a s a chemis t , I ' v e worked i n

paper m i l l s , a s an a n a l y t i c a l chemis t , and I ' v e worked

i n b a t t e r y manufactur ing. I ' v e worked i n s e v e r a l o t h e r

. . . j u s t small jobs . . . l i k e t e x t i l e m i l l s and t h e

dye i n d u s t r y .

D r . Y . : Where had you gone t o c o l l e g e ?

M r . S . : The U n i v e r s i t y of North C a r o l i n a where I gradua ted i n

1925 w i t h a Bachelor of Sc ience .

D r . Y . : Good. And Wally, w i l l you g e t on t h e microphone f o r us?

M r . J . : Y e s , I ' d l i k e t o ask M r . McManus whether he was acqua in ted

w i t h any o f t h e i n s p e c t o r s who were i n t h e o r i g i n a l f i r s t

crew t h a t m e t somewhere on t h e Mall i n Washington wi th

shopping bags and then were s e n t o u t t o p i ck up t h e f i r s t

samples. Did you know any of t hose men?

. M . : Yes. They were a yea r ahead of m e i n t h e i r work and;

t h e r e f o r e , were v e t e r a n s i n t h e o r d i n a r y sense of t h e

word. They a c t e d l i k e t h a t . I was f o r t u n a t e i n meeting

a number of them. One t h i n g t h a t was ve ry i n t e r e s t i n g

was, t h e r e were i n t h e i n s p e c t i o n f o r c e a t t h a t t ime

six o r seven men w i t h medical deg rees who, f o r some

r eason o r o t h e r , d i d n ' t c a r e t o go i n t o c l i n i c a l work

and, t h i n k i n g t h a t t h i s would be o f i n t e r e s t t o them,

were appoin ted . Very few of them s t a y e d a s i n s p e c t o r s

though. A number of them joined t h e drug d i v i s i o n l a t e r .

I could . . . D r . Y . : You cou ld g i v e t h e i r names?

M r . M : Yes. There w a s D r . Andrew J. McIntyre , a g r a d u a t e of

Georgetown Medical , who was t h e f i r s t i n s p e c t o r i n t h e

Savannah t e r r i t o r y ; t h e r e was D r . W i l l i a m H . Ca l lahan ,

who had worked w i t h t h e a t h l e t i c d i r e c t o r of Yale, worked

i n Alaska and was . , . f i n a l l y ended up i n Drug Div i s ion .

There was D r . O.R. Sud le r who o n l y s t ayed about a yea r

and joined a commercial concern a s a t e c h n i c a l man.

There was a l s o , i n my c l a s s of 1908, a D r . Edward Horgan

who became a noted surgeon i n Washington a f t e r a few

months w i t h u s , and t h e r e was D r . Artemus Brown, a count ry

p h y s i c i a n from Iowa who was lame from f a l l i n g o u t of a

t r e e , a s he t o l d me. He worked o u t of t h e Chicago O f f i c e

f o r q u i t e a wh i l e . Then t h e r e were s e v e r a l o t h e r s who

on ly s t a y e d a s h o r t t ime w i t h us .

D r . Y . : M r . McManus, when you joined t h e agency i n 1908, what

was your f i r s t assignment f o r t h e Food and Drug Adminis t ra t ion?

M r . M . ; I w a s s e n t t o t h e Chicago O f f i c e which had a n o t h e r

i n s p e c t o r t h e r e , a M r . Robert Young. H e had p rev ious

expe r i ence w i t h t h e Bureau of Animal I n d u s t r y , I thought ,

being appoin ted a drug i n s p e c t o r , my work would l i e i n

t h a t f i e l d , b u t on ly a week o r s o a f t e r r e p o r t i n g , I was

t o l d t o g e t a p a i r of o v e r a l l s and go t o C i n c i n n a t i .

D r . Wiley had dec ided t h a t t h e i n t e r s t a t e milk s i t u a t i o n

r e q u i r e d some i n v e s t i g a t i o n , and w e were s e n t o u t t o

c o l l e c t samples o f milk and b r i n g them t o t h e C i n c i n n a t i

l a b o r a t o r y f o r b a c t e r i o l o g i c a l examinat ion, a s w e l l a s

chemical examinat ion. W e found t h a t p a s t e u r i z a t i o n wasn ' t

always as e f f i c i e n t as it was c la imed, and t h e presence

of t h e s e co lon organisms showed t h a t t h e r e was an un-

d e s i r a b l e s i t u a t i o n i n t h e milk . I r e c a l l t h a t , i n my

ignorance o r ove r - zea l , I c o l l e c t e d a sample of c e r t i f i e d

milk ove r t h e p r o t e s t of t h e d r i v e r who s a i d t h a t he

on ly had a l i m i t e d number, and they were f o r s p e c i a l

i n f a n t s , and he could n o t spa re a sample. However, I

took t h a t sample. When t h e t r i a l came up, t h e q u e s t i o n

a r o s e a s t o whether t h e samples had been p r o p e r l y k e p t

u n t i l t h e b a c t e r i o l o g i s t took them, and it was developed

t h a t t h e i n s p e c t o r i n charge of t h e samples had p u t them

i n a b a t h t u b w i t h some water t o keep them c o o l . The defense

made a p o i n t t h a t t h e b a t h t u b was n o t t h e most s a n i t a r y

p l a c e f o r mi lk even though it was i n o r i g i n a l b o t t l e s .

But t h e c e r t i f i e d milk sample t h a t I had taken showed

no contamina t ion whatever and the reby a c t e d a s a c o n t r o l ,

and w e were a b l e t o g e t a c o n v i c t i o n i n t h a t c a s e . From

t h e r e , w e went t o Chicago where we covered milk from

Ind iana and Wisconsin.

D r . Y . : Where had you t a k e n t h e mi lk i n t h e C i n c i n n a t i c a s e

. . . over i n Kentucky?

M r . M . : Kentucky and a l s o . . . y e s Kentucky was t h e p l a c e .

And t h e n , o f c o u r s e , w e d i d have drug work and v i n e g a r ,

a t t h a t t i m e , was ano the r p roduc t t h a t was r e c e i v i n g a

l o t of a t t e n t i o n . Apple v i n e g a r was v e r y popu la r , b u t

it was thought , w i t h good r ea son , t h a t much of it had

been d i l u t e d wi th t h e common d i s t i l l e d v i n e g a r , and t h e r e

was a l o t o f chemical work involved 2n t r y i n g t o d e t e c t

t h a t a d u l t e r a t i o n and a l o t o f i n s p e c t i o n work t o determine

t h e purchase of the t e n p e r c e n t whste v i n e g a r f o r a d u l t e r -

a t i o n purposes . That l e d i n t o t h e Supreme Court f i n a l l y ,

and w e g o t t h e famous v inega r d e c i s i o n ,

D r . Y , : T w e n t y e i g h t b a r r e l s of v inega r o r something l i k e t h a t .

M r . M . : Yes, i n which t h e Supreme Court s e t o u t what was f a l s e

and mis lead ing i n t h e Act,

D r . Y . : You over lapped D r . Wl l ey ' s s e r v i c e a s Chief of t h e Bureau

of Chemistry by about f o u r y e a r s , How many t i n e s d i d

you s e e h i m i n t h e cou r se of your over lapping?

M r . M . : t l e l l , I had my f i r s t c o n t a c t w i t h him i n 1 9 0 9 i n Spring-

field, I l l i n o i s . I had c o l l e c t e d a sample o f so -ca l l ed

l i q u i d egg , mere ly a s a c u r i o s i t y because I could n o t

unders tand how a l i q u i d egg would keep, and it developed

t h a t it had two p e r c e n t o f b o r i c a c i d i n i t , and D r .

Wiley charged i n a s e i z u r e a c t i o n t h a t i t was an added

d e l e t e r i o u s subs tance . So, when t h e c a s e came t o t r i a l

i n S p r i n g f i e l d , D r . Wiley, w i t h some members of t h e Bureau

of Chemistry who had been i n t h e so-cal led Poison Squad,

had a conference t h e r e . Me went o v e r t h e tes t imony w e

had a v a i l a b l e w i t h t h e Uni ted S t a t e s At torney . I r e c a l l

t h a t , a f t e r t h e o f f i c i a l work was done, D r . Wiley was

q u i t e a r a c o n t e u r of s t o r i e s of d i f f e r e n t k inds and showed

a wide knowledge i n b io logy and ph i losophy and many o t h e r

t h i n g s l i k e t h a t ,

D r . Y. ; Did you t h i n k t h a t he had a p r e t t y good pe r sona l r e l a t i o n -

s h i p w i t h h i s i n s p e c t o r s ?

M r . M. : I d o n ' t t h i n k he knew them v e r y w e l l . One time, he came

through Savannah when I was s t a t i o n e d t h e r e a few y e a r s

l a t e r and . . . D r . Y . : What y e a r d i d you go t o Savannah?

M r . M . : I n 1 9 1 1 .

D r . Y . : Right .

M r . M . : And he came through t h e r e on some purpose, probably

t o s e e t h e l a b o r a t o r y , and I took him down t o t h e r a i l -

road s t a t i o n , and I r e c a l l w e had an ea sy conve r sa t ion

about d i f f e r e n t t h i n g s . A t t h a t t ime , t h e c h i e f con t ro-

ve r sy i n t h e p r e s s was t h e "what was whiskey?" The

d i s t i l l e r s were u s ing a n e u t r a l s p i r i t s , a p roduc t

which was made by r e j e c t i n g t h e f i r s t t e n and t h e l a s t

t e n d i s t i l l a t e and us ing t h e o t h e r w i thou t ag ing , which

was unders tood t o be t h e d i s t i n c t i v e mark of whiskey.

A s D r . Wiley w a s abou t t o board t h e t r a i n , he s a i d t o

me, "Let m e s e e i f I have a l l o f t h e equipment necessary

f o r a t r i p o f t h i s k ind ." And he opened and he showed

me a b o t t l e of l i q u o r , and I s a i d , "Doctor, i s t h a t FID

150?" And he s a i d , "No. T h i s i s FID one something e l s e , "

which was h i s d e f i n i t i o n o f t r u e whiskey. However,

P r e s i d e n t T a f t upheld t h e d i s t i l l e r s ' v iewpoin t . So,

he was easy-giong t o t h a t e x t e n t , b u t I d i d n o t s e e him,

excep t a s a c a s u a l v i s i t o r t o Washington on d i f f e r e n t

t r i p s . I d i d n o t s e e much o f him a f t e r t h a t . I have a

c l i p p i n g I ' d l i k e t o show you sometime on t h e contemporary

op in ion of D r . Wiley and . . .

D r . Y.: Sure . Do you have it w i t h you?

M r . M . : Yeah. I ' d l i k e t o r ead it, i f I can f i n d it.

D r . Y . : A l l r i g h t , s i r .

M r . M.: Can you s t o p t h a t t h i n g ? I t might t a k e me a minute.

D r . Y . : We ' l l g e t t h a t poem on t h e record l a t e r on when you f i n d

it.

M r . M . : I ' v e g o t it h e r e , b u t I c a n ' t , . . I guess . . . D r . Y . : Well, l e t ' s d o n ' t worry about t h a t r i g h t now. How about

d e s c r i b i n g D r . Wiley f o r u s . . . t h e way he looked,

M r . McManus, a s you remember him.

M r . M . : W e l l , he was a b i g man, b u t he was ve ry a c t i v e i n h i s

movements and i n h i s speech. He had a f a c e t h a t , t o my

mind, reminded me of t h e old- t ime p reache r s . That f a c i l e

l i p s and prominent nose t h a t go w i t h one used t o speaking

f r e q u e n t l y and f r e e l y . He was a widely--read man.

D r . Y . : What k ind of vo i ce d i d he have?

M r . M. : I c a n ' t r e c a l l . I remember I took him t o t h e Chemists

s o c i e t y Meeting i n S t . Louis , and he was r ece ived w i t h

some h o s t i l i t y , b u t he spoke f r e e l y . I d o n ' t r e c a

h i s vo i ce .

D r . Y . : Did he sound l i k e an old- t ime preacher when he was on t h e

ros t rum?

M r . M . : No. No. H e d i d n ' t use s o many f lower s of speech a s t h e

p o l i t i c i a n o r someone who preaches . No. I r e c a l l he

was a r a t h e r m a t t e r - o f - f a c t and somewhat dogmatic, I

would say .

M r . J . : H e spoke w i t h a u t h o r i t y though, d i d he?

M r . M . : Yes, because he was an a u t h o r i t y ; he was one of t h e

p i o n e e r s who had r e a l l y done work i n t h e s e f i e l d s .

D r . Y . : Now, he was i n con t rove r sy w i t h i n d u s t r y and, indeed ,

w i t h h i s own s u p e r i o r s i n t h e Department o f A g r i c u l t u r e

th roughout most o f t h e t i m e . TJow, how d i d you f e e l

a s an i n s p e c t o r o u t i n t h e f i e l d when a l l t h i s p u b l i c i t y

came o u t ? Were you . . . were t h e i n s p e c t o r s q u i t e

s t r o n g l y l o y a l t o t h e Agency and t o him?

M r . M . : W e l l , I t h i n k he was somewhat d i s t a n t t o us . H e was

an image more than a man l i k e M r . Campbell, t k c h i e f

i n s p e c t o r . I know most o f u s were l o y a l t o h i n because

it was h i s views t h a t reached u s i n t h e p r e s s . I n t h o s e

days , t h e r e w a s n o t ve ry much p u b l i c i t y about t h e work

i n t h e p r e s s and, i n f a c t , t h e r e w a s one p r o p r i e t a r y

a s s o c i a t i o n t h a t had a c l a u s e i n t h e i r a d v e r t i s i n g i n

which t h e y r e q u i r e d i t s c a n c e l l a t i o n i f adve r se p u b l i c i t y

appeared i n t h e a d v e r t i s i n g organ. I have f o r g o t t e n t h e

name o f t h a t s h e e t . . . t h a t , what do you c a l l it . . . t h e c l a u s e t h a t went w i t h t h e p r o p r i e t a r y medicine ad-

v e r t i s i n g .

M r . J . : They c a l l e d it t h e "Red Clause" because sometimes it

was p r i n t e d i n r e d i n k .

D r . Y . : So t h a t a s you r ead t h e newspapers, you say , t h e r e wasn ' t

t o o much news, b u t you s t i l l were l o y a l t o what Wiley

r e p r e s e n t e d ?

M r . M . : There was no doubt t h a t t h e men I t a l k e d t o sympathized

wi th him. The Legal Department o f t h e Department of

A g r i c u l t u r e was headed by a man who was g e n e r a l l y opposed

t o D r . Wiley, b u t I do n o t know whether it was based on

t h e l e g a l r ea sons o r j u s t p e r s o n a l i t i e s . I d o n ' t know

t h a t .

D r . Y . : H i s name was McCabe, a s 1 remember.

M r . M . : Yes. George McCabe.

D r . Y . : Did you develop . . . d i d you, r e p r e s e n t i n g i n s p e c t o r s ,

develop any sense of h o s t i l i t y t o him t h i n k i n g t h a t he

was t r y i n g t o hamstr ing t h e p rope r , e f f e c t i v e t r e a t m e n t

of t h e law?

M r . M . : Well , I d o n ' t t h i n k t h a t was g e n e r a l , though when our

own recommendations f o r a c t i o n o r s e i z u r e were tu rned

down, w e d i d n ' t f e e l k i n d l y towards M r . McCabe. But, t h e r e

was a r e a l i z a t i o n t h e r e t h a t t h i s work was d i f f e r e n t

from c o n t r o l work,where a manufacturer would be s a t i s f i e d

w i t h t h e tests t h a t t o l d him what he had,when we had t o

prove beyond a reasonable doubt and s u b j e c t t o c r o s s -

examinat ion t h a t t h e r e was such a misbranding o r a d u l t e r -

a t i o n . So we r e a l i z e d soon t h a t we had t o do some e x t r a

work i n o r d e r t o p r e s e n t c a s e s which would b r ing about

t h e c o r r e c t i o n s needed.

D r . Y . : You mentioned M r . Campbell j u s t a l i t t l e whi le ago; who,

of c o u r s e , was t h e f i r s t c h i e f i n s p e c t o r i n Washington.

Now, would you t e l l u s a l i t t l e abou t him a s f a r as your

p e r s o n a l a s s o c i a t i o n s o r r e c o l l e c t i o n s a r e concerned?

M r . M . : Well, a t t h e t ime I e n t e r e d and f o r some t i m e l a t e r u n t i l

1917, M r . Campbell was t h e c h i e f i n s p e c t o r i n t h e p r a c t i c a l

sense of t h e word. We g o t o u r i n s t r u c t i o n s from him,

and w e had m e t him p e r s o n a l l y , and he was a man who made

a good impress ion. He was a l e a d e r and, y e t , he was one

t h a t mainta ined r e s p e c t f o r h i s a u t h o r i t y . He wasn ' t

m i l i t a r y i n h i s a u t h o r i t y , b u t we r e a l i z e d we d i d n o t want

t o l e t him down i n any sense o f t h e word. So, I found

t h e r e was a g e n e r a l a p p r e c i a t i o n of him and o f t e n t h e

exp res s ion was made, " I f w e cou ld on ly t e l l Campbell

t h i s . "

D r . Y . : You thought he was on your s i d e a l l t h e way.

M r . M . : Oh, yes . We thought t h a t .

D r . Y . : Could you d e s c r i b e him?

M r . M . : Well , he w a s a man about 5 '10" o r more and had dark

h a i r i n my day, and he was a v e r y n e a t d r e s s e r , and he

spoke w i t h a s su rance , wi thout any supe r f luous a d j e c t i v e s .

I r e c a l l one t i m e l a t e r , I was i n h i s o f f i c e and t h e r e

was a d i s c u s s i o n came up between a young chemis t who had

been s e n t t o F l o r i d a t o i n v e s t i g a t e o ranges and was d r a f t e d

t o h e l p i n v e s t i g a t e a dangerous drug t h a t had been shipped

w i t h some t o x i n . And t h i s man k e p t speaking o f " t h e

o l d d o c t o r . " M r . Campbell s a i d , "How o l d was he?" And

t h i s man s a i d , "Why, he was s i x t y y e a r s o l d . " And a

laugh went around t h e room because it seemed Mr. Campbell

had j u s t been c o n g r a t u l a t e d on h i s s i x t i e t h b i r t h d a y by

t h e rest of t h e s t a f f . So, t h a t ' s why I r e c a l l i n 1938

M r . Campbell was s i x t y y e a r s o l d . And he took it jok ing ly .

i

I remember he s a i d t o me when I was appoin ted , he s a i d ,

"We expec t you t o r e p o r t t h e f a c t s , and we w i l l s t and by

you i n a l l your work a s long a s you keep t h e r eco rds

s t r a i g h t on what i s being done."

M r . J . : I ' d l i k e t o a s k you about t h a t milk assignment t h a t you

g o t from D r . Wiley when you f i r s t s t a r t e d i n . A t t h a t

t i m e , was t h e r e much l o c a l c o n t r o l over milk? Was t h e

P u b l i c Hea l th S e r v i c e involved i n . . M r . M . : I do n o t t h i n k t h e P u b l i c Hea l th Se rv i ce was involved

a t t h e t ime. W e l a t e r had two campaigns i n N e w England

and, a s 1 r e c a l l i t , t h e r e was a . . . t h e r e may have been

a b a c t e r i a coun t , bu t I d o n ' t t h i n k t h e r e was e f f o r t made

t o d i s t i n g u i s h t h e e f f i c i e n c y of p a s t e u r i z a t i o n o r t h e

s a n i t a r y c o n d i t i o n o f t h e d a i r y i t s e l f . And D r . Wi ley ' s

a c t i o n s a g a i n s t t h e i n t e r s t a t e s h i p p e r s of t h e contaminated

mi lk d i d r e s u l t i n t h e i r t a k i n g more s t e p s f o r i n s p e c t i o n ,

and I b e l i e v e t h a t was t h e g e n e r a l o b j e c t i v e of D r . Wi l ey ' s

work, was t o b r i n g it t o t h e i r a t t e n t i o n t h a t t h e r e was

need o f t h a t . I r e c a l l i n New England t h e r e was a h igh

inc idence of bovine t u b e r c u l o s i s and t h a t was be fo re t h e

days when such c a t t l e were e l i m i n a t e d . And s o , p a s t e u r i -

z a t i o n was ve ry d e s i r a b l e and impor tan t . , . e f f i c i e n t

p a s t e u r i z a t i o n .

M r . J . : Of c o u r s e , a t t h a t t ime , t h e r e a l r e a d y were f e d e r a l laws

d e a l i n g w i t h b u t t e r and cheese , a s I r e c a l l ,

M r . M . : Yes, t h e r e was an I n t e r n a l Revenue law r e q u i r i n g n o t over

1 6 p e r c e n t o f wa te r , and t h e assumption would be t h a t

t h a t would b r i n g t h e b u t t e r f a t up t o 82$%, a l l owing

f o r a sma l l percen tage of curd . But , most of them took

a t o l e r a n c e which was n o t ques t ioned ve ry much, and

they o n l y p u t 80% mi lk f a t and l a t e r t hey k e p t dropping

down, s o t h e n Congress passed t h e B u t t e r Act a s p a r t of

t h e Food and Drug Act , say ing t h a t b u t t e r s h a l l c o n t a i n

8 0 % milk f a t , a l l t o l e r a n c e s provided. And t h a t , of cou r se ,

helped o u r enforcement program because then it was j u s t

a m a t t e r of chemical accuracy i n determining t h e percen tage

of f a t .

D r . Y. : When you were i n t h e f i e l d i n connec t ion wi th t h e mi lk ,

was it p a r t of your miss ion t o educa te t h e s t a t e and l o c a l

i n s p e c t o r s about t h e k i n d s o f problems t h a t you w e r e

f i n d i n g s o t h a t t h e y cou ld w i t h i n t h e i r own a r e a s c a r r y

on a s i m i l a r program?

M r . M . : That was n o t emphasized i n t h e e a r l y days . W e were

cau t ioned a g a i n s t p u b l i c s t a t e m e n t s , and t h e r e was ve ry

l i t t l e p u b l i c i t y . I t h i n k it was i n 1 9 1 4 , s t e p s were

t a k e n t o develop t h e s t a t e coope ra t ion f e a t u r e s , and

t h a t helped a good d e a l i n t h a t l i n e , b u t w e never f e l t

f r e e , e s p e c i a l l y t h e f i e l d men. We d i d n o t f e e l f r e e

t o speak about o u r work.

D r . Y . : Were you t o l d t o be s e c r e t i v e a s p a r t of your i n s t r u c t i o n s

t h a t came from M r . Campbell?

M r . M . ; Not by M r . Campbell, b u t I r e c a l l when I e n t e r e d t h e

s e r v i c e I was t o l d about an i n s p e c t o r i n Michigan who

gave an i n t e r v i e w one day a f t e r t h e appointment and then

den ied t h a t he gave t h e i n t e r v i e w and whether because he

l i e d or he s a i d too much, he was r e p o r t e d t o have been

d i smissed . But I do n o t know t h a t excep t from hearsay

of t h e o t h e r i n s p e c t o r s b u t , i n g e n e r a l , w e d i d n o t w r i t e

any th ing . I remember t h e Chemical S o c i e t y had a meeting

i n Savannah and, s i n c e t h e headqua r t e r s w e r e i n A t l a n t a ,

I was t h e vice-chairman, and I had t o speak on drugs .

But I had t o send it t o Washington f o r c learance- - I

mean on v e g e t a b l e d rugs and, i n g e n e r a l , t h a t type of

work was n o t encouraged u n t i l I guess a f t e r World War I ,

D r . Y . : A f t e r World War I ?

M r . M.: Yeah. They began t o d e l e g a t e some of t h e appearances . . . D r . Y . : To b r i n g it t o t h e a t t e n t i o n of t h e p u b l i c . . . When you

went t o Savannah, one of t h e problems t h a t you were g iven

t o i n v e s t i g a t e and maybe t h i s would have been i n t h e very

e a r l y 2 0 1 s , was t h e s t a t e of crude drugs a s they were

r a i s e d i n North Ca ro l ina . Do you remember t h a t f i e l d

i n v e s t i g a t i o n ?

M r . M. : Y e s , I had t a k e n q u i t e a cou r se i n botany, e s p e c i a l l y

med ic ina l d rug botany, i n t h e Col lege of Pharmacy, so I

was much i n t e r e s t e d i n t h a t , and t h e r e w e r e i n A s h e v i l l e

a t t h a t t i m e , t w o l a r g e c o l l e c t o r s , one i n S t a t e s v i l l e ,

one i n Marion, V i r g i n i a , one i n P i k e v i l l e , Kentucky,

and t h e y would i s s u e monthly l i s t s of t h e d rugs they

d e s i r e d and t h e p r i c e s t h e y would pay f o r them; and t h e y

numbered, as I r e c a l l , a couple o f mimeographed pages

s o t h e r e would be over a hundred t h i n g s t hey w e r e c o l l e c t i n g .

D r . Y . : What k i n d s of d r u g s , f o r example?

M r . M . : W e l l , one d rug , of c o u r s e , was g inseng , There was

w i l d growth t h e r e . . . peppermint was c o l l e c t e d . . . Queen of t h e Meadow, t h a t was s t i l l i n g i a , I t h i n k , That

came from f u r t h e r sou th , though . . . e u p a t o r i m which

was a b i t t e r weed. There were t w o k inds o f t h a t .

D r . Y . : How do you s p e l l t h a t ?

M r . M . : E U P A T 0 R I U M , I guess . And l o b e l i a , which i s s t i l l

running around as an an t i - t obacco , anti-smoking t h i n g

and Mandrake Root which i s a popula r l a x a t i v e s t i l l used,

and t h e viburnum ba rks which a r e known a s b lack haw and

s h i n e haw. The bark and t h e r o o t were supposed t o have

s e d a t i v e e f f e c t s i n female c o n d i t i o n s , and t h e . . , D r . Y . : Wel l , I t h i n k t h o s e a r e enough examples t o show u s t h e

k i n d s of t h i n g s .

M r . M.: W e l l , t h e s e q u e l of t h a t t h i n g was t h a t I s e n t t hose

samples t o New York where t h e pharmacognocist , a s he

was c a l l e d t h e n . . . D r . Y . : W e l l , now you h a v e n ' t t o l d u s abou t g e t t i n g t h e samples,

M r . M . : O h , ye s . We would g e t them from t h e d e a l e r s and g e t a

pound o r so . A t t h a t t ime , o n l y probably a t h i r d of t h e s e

l i s t e d d rugs were recognized i n t h e Na t iona l Formulary

and about a l l t h e y had a s s t a n d a r d s were some microscopic

d e t e c t i o n s l i k e , it would say t h e . . . d e s c r i b e t h e r o o t

o r t h e rhizome o r t h e d r i e d l e a v e s and t h e amount of

sand pe rmi t t ed i n t h e r e which was known t o t h e chemist

a s i n s o l u b l e a s h and, a s I was say ing , New York had t h e

same problem w i t h import c rude d rugs l i k e s a r s p a r i l l a

and d i g i t a l i s and a c o n i t e and v a r i o u s o t h e r d rugs .

The a f t e r m a t h is t h a t sometime about 1 9 1 7 o r '18, t h e

d i s t r i c t c h i e f a t t h a t t ime , M r . H a r t , s a i d t hey needed

a drug man i n New York, When I g o t t h e r e , t hey ass igned

me t h e job of ana lyz ing t h e s e hundred o r so drugs I had

c o l l e c t e d f o r a c i d i n s o l u b l e a s h , and they decided I

w a s n ' t a good drug chemis t , f o r some reason . Anyhow,

t h e in format ion was n o t of h igh importance cons ide r ing

t h e economic v a l u e of t h e t h i n g .

D r . Y . : Well , d i d t h e y send you o u t t o g e t i n touch w i t h t h e

people who c o l l e c t e d t h e d rugs f o r t h e houses a t a l l ?

Did you look around t h e f i e l d ?

M r . M . : Y e s , w e d i d n o t g e t much coope ra t ion from t h e b i g u s e r s

of t h e d rugs because they had t h e i r own b o t a n i s t s and

pharmacognocists t h e r e t o i d e n t i f y them, and they f e l t

t h a t , i f t h e y were chea t ed , t hey would j u s t charge it back

t o t h e sh ippe r . The s h i p p e r s had an uncanny knowledge

of t h e drug by j u s t looking a t i t . I was amazed about t h e

s k i l l i n which t h e y cou ld p i c k a bag of peppermint l e a v e s

and t e l l me t h a t t h a t was it, e t c . and they . . . it was

j u s t a s k i l l o f an a r t i s a n , r a t h e r than a s c i e n t i s t .

I c o u l d n ' t t e l l t h e d i f f e r e n c e between t h e bark of

Viburnum nudum, which was c a l l e d t h e sh iny haw o r Viburnum

p run i fo l ium, which was c a l l e d b lack haw - both had

v a l e r i a n i c a c i d i n it, which smel led l i k e v a l e r i a n i c

a c i d , b u t it was thought t h a t a m i c r o s c o p i s t , checking

@

t h e cells and t h e s t a r c h c o n t e n t might i d e n t i f y it. But

it was dec ided i n t h a t and i n o t h e r d rugs l a t e r , t h a t

economic v a l u e o r importance o r t h e h e a l t h importance

d i d n ' t wa r ran t t h a t much t ime , s o we g r a d u a l l y g o t away

from t h a t , and t h e medica l p r o f e s s i o n g o t away from it ,

of c o u r s e , as t h e people g o t b e t t e r educated and j u s t k e p t

t h o s e drugs of u s e f u l n e s s .

D r . Y . : What 's t h e d i f f e r e n c e between f a l s e un ico rn r o o t and

t r u e un ico rn r o o t ?

M r . M . : I do n o t r e c a l l t h a t one.

D r . Y . : W e l l , t h a t was one t h a t I r a n a c r o s s i n t h e r e c o r d . M r .

Schiffman, l e t ' s j u s t t u r n t o you f o r a minute. Did you

ana lyze d rugs . . . imported c rude d r u g s , a s t hey came

i n t o N e w York i n t h e p e r i o d wh i l e you were t h e r e ?

M r . S . : To a smal l e x t e n t . Notmuch. Most of my work i n New

York was w i t h food ,

D r . Y . : With food.

M r . S . : Yeah. ?.nd t h e y had a drug l a b o r a t o r y which d i d most of

t h e drug examinat ion. But w e d i d p i ck through some of it

f o r c l e a n l i n e s s and t h a t t ype of t h i n g .

D r . Y . : Right . There i s one person who is a kind o f mystery t o

me i n t h e h i s t o r y of t h i s adventure who was i n New York

concerned w i t h drugs . Was he s t i l l t h e r e when you were

t h e r e ? D r . Rusby?

M r . M . : W e l l , he was n o t d i r e c t l y a s s o c i a t e d . He was once i n a

wh i l e employed a s a c o n s u l t a n t , and he was more of a

c o n s u l t a n t t o t h e drug i n d u s t r y t han he was t o u s , b u t I

b e l i e v e he had been s e n t t o S ~ u t h American f o r t h e D e i

par tment of A g r i c u l t u r e t o i n v e s t i g a t e some drug down t h e r e

b u t . . . D r . Y. : Did you e v e r m e e t him?

M r . M . : No, I d i d n o t meet him.

D r . Y . : F ine . When you f i r s t went t o Savannah, what were t h e

b i g t y p e s o f problems t h a t you had i n t h e South?

M r . M . : W e l l , t h ey w e r e i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e canning of o y s t e r s ,

I n t h e Southern s t a t e s , t h e o y s t e r grows i n c l u s t e r s

on t h e t i d a l p l a c e s , and t h e y a r e t o o sma l l and t o o

d i f f i c u l t t o open f o r raw s t o c k , s o c a n n e r i e s developed

t h e r e , a s i n Bal t imore . There was a q u e s t i o n f i r s t a s

t o t h e f i l l of t h e can. I t was i n t h e days be fo re t h e

canned foods s t a n d a r d s were e s t a b l i s h e d and t h e r e were

some packs a s low a s 2 ounces f o r t h e number one c a n ,

wh i l e it was supposed t o have come t o 5 ounces. The same

t h i n g was a problem i n shrimp, excep t ing i n shrimp w e had

t h e added problem of t h e f r e s h n e s s of t h e shrimp as it

was p u t i n t o t h e can and f r e q u e n t l y t h e b o a t s , n o t being

r e f r i g e r a t e d , would b r i n g i n shrimp t h a t had begun t o

decompose and t h e chemis t s k i l l e d i n smel l ing them could

d e t e c t t h a t c o n d i t i o n . L a t e r , t h e cannery s a n i t a t i o n q c t

s o bad t h a t t hey were g e t t i n g the rmoph i l i c b a c t e r i a

s p o i l a g e . That r e s u l t e d i n Sena tor Har r i son of M i s s i s s i p p i

i n t r o d u c i n g an amendment t o t h e Act p rov id ing t h a t w e

would g i v e a service t y p e of i n s p e c t i o n t o t h e shrimp

c a n n e r i e s o r any f i s h e r y p roduc t , b u t shrimp were t h e

o n l y people who took u s up.

D r . Y . : So you had somebody on guard a l l t h e t i m e a t t h e manu-

f a c t u r e r ' s expense?

M r . M . : Y e s . I t was a v o l u n t a r y s e r v i c e though. We could n o t

compel it. I t h i n k it was tu rned over t o t h e Bureau

of F i s h e r i e s .

M r . J.: The canner had t o pay f o r t h a t , d i d n ' t he?

M r . S . : Oh, yes .

D r . Y . : I n connec t ion w i t h t h e s e e a r l y c a s e s , you mentioned going

t o c o u r t w i t h t h e mi lk s i t u a t i o n . Were you i n c o u r t

a good d e a l ?

M r . M . : W e l l , i n Ind iana where much of t h e Chicago and C i n c i n n a t i

mi lk came from, t h e Distr ict At torney i n s i s t e d on Grand

J u r y p r e s e n t a t i o n s . So t h a t brought u s up t o c o u r t ,

and t h e r e was o n l y one l a r g e d a i r y i n C i n c i n n a t i t h a t

fough t t h e c a s e , and t h a t w a s t h e on ly t ime t h a t I was

on t h e w i t n e s s s t a n d f o r cross-examinat ion.

D r . Y. r I n your c a r e e r l a t e r on, w e r e t h e r e any memorable ex-

p e r i e n c e s t h a t you had be ing a w i t n e s s on t h e w i t n e s s

s t a n d ? How about t h e egg s i t u a t i o n i n I l l i n o i s ? Were

you p a r t of t h a t c a s e t h a t went up t o t h e Supreme Court?

M r . M . : Y e s . I was t h e i n s p e c t o r who d i scovered t h e produc t .

I t was a r a t h e r unique p roduc t . That was t h e on ly manu-

f a c t u r e r and t h e on ly u s e r of it a t t h a t t ime .

D r . Y . : Was t h a t t h e S t . Louis concern?

M r . M . : Yes. The H i p o l i t e Company. I t i s s t i l l i n e x i s t e n c e .

M r . J . : Was t h a t t h e Borax Case?

Mr. M-: ye&. Boric acid.

Dr. Y.: And you testified at that trial, did you?

Mr. M.: I just testified as to the facts, but some of . . . I mean the facts of the collection. And then Dr. Wiley's

staff testified that they had taken boric acid for a

number of weeks, etc., in such doses. So apparently,

that issue was not challenged severely. The chief challenge

in the appeals was that we had no right to seize the

product because it wasn't in commerce. It was owned

by the baker, and he bought it in St. Louis. He transported

it himself. But the Court held that the transportation

subjected it to the action of the law, regardless of who

owned it.

Mr. J.: Did you know any members of the Poison Squad who testified

at that trial or any of the other members of the Poison

Squad?

Mr. M.: I just knew them as they were in what we called Food

Division, I just knew them from their appearance. One

was a Mr. Weber, r think it was Freddie . . , Fred, or something. Another was a Mr. Gore, a nice looking young

man. I guess in his thirties or so. He worked on fruit

juices, etc. And I can't remember . . . Mr. J.: Were they all employees of the Bureau of Chemistry?

Mr. M.: Yes, They were Dr. Wiley's staff . . . volunteers. One

time in Savannah, an oil middleman told me that the

wild coffee bean which grew in the marshes there very

abundantly had a high protein content, and he wanted

t o know i f it was s u i t a b l e f o r animal food , I t o l d him

I d i d n o t know, bu t I would ask o u r Washington o f f i c e .

So, I s e n t some specimens i n ; and t h e y t o l d m e t h e y ' d

l i k e t o g e t some of t h e f r e s h produc t s o t hey could

b o t a n i c a l l y i d e n t i f y it. And s o I o b t a i n e d t h a t from t h e

marshes o u t s i d e Savannah, and it was a l i t t l e pea - l i ke

produc t i n a pod t h a t yrew l u s h l y i n t h e marshes. So,

when I went t o Washington, D r . Howard had s e v e r a l l ady

a s s i s t a n t s , and it appeared t h a t t h i s p roduc t had a

v i o l e n t , i n t e s t i n a l i r r i t a n t . And I was t o l d t h a t each

of them had t a s t e d it and then t h e r e was a ru sh t o t h e

l a d i e s ' room. So, I had t o send them a box of oranges

a s a peace o f f e r i n g f o r n o t t e l l i n g them t h a t Duboisia

something was a poisonous p r o d u c t , and t h a t ' s why t h e

c a t t l e d i d n ' t e a t i n t h e f i r s t p l a c e . I d o n ' t know i f you

want t h a t k ind o f s t u f f . . . D r . Y . : Sure . These are t h e s t o r i e s t h a t k ind of made l i f e

i n t e r e s t i n g above t h e r o u t i n e . One o f t h e b i g g e s t e p i s o d e s

of a l l . . . t h i s comes forward i n t i m e somewhat . . . i n c l u d e s you, a s I unders tand it, t o some e x t e n t , M r .

Schiffman . . . was t h e su l fana lamide s i t u a t i o n t h a t

occur red i n 1937.

M r . S . : The E l i x i r of Su l f an i l amide .

D r . Y . : Right . Were you he re i n A t l a n t a when t h a t g r e a t chase

went on?

M r . S . : Yeah. We were a l l s e n t o u t , most of t h e f o r c e , and I

had occas ion t o go chase around i n t h e mountains of

Georgia. Tha tq , s a good s t o r y .

D r . Y . : T e l l u s about your chase around t h e mountains.

M r . S.: W e l l , a t t h a t t i m e , it w a s p r e t t y lousy wea ther , r a i n i n g ,

and t h e roads were p r e t t y d i f f i c u l t i n t h e mountains

o f Georgia a t t h a t t i m e . And t h e r e was q u i t e a chase t o

f i n d o u t t h e l o c a t i o n s of d i f f e r e n t people who had c h i l d r e n

who w e r e being g iven t h i s E l i x i r Su l f an i l amide . What it

amounted t o w a s p r e t t y d i f f i c u l t t r a v e l i n g and l o c a t i n g

people and ob ta in ing recovery of t h e samples o f , t h a t i s ,

t h e drug i t s e l f . One of t h e h a r d e s t ones was a l i t t l e

k i d t h a t I f i n a l l y g o t up t o a f t e r my c a r g o t s t u c k and

I climbed t h e mountain by f o o t and managed t o g e t t o t h e

l i t t l e c a b i n where t hey t o l d m e t h e c h i l d was. I found

then t h e b o t t l e of E l i x i r Su l fana l imide . E i t h e r h a l f

f u l l o r h a l f empty. I d o n ' t know which it was. But t h a t

was t h e most d ramat ic one.

D r . Y 1 : W a s t h e c h i l d i n t h i s c a s e i n j u r e d by t a k i n g t h e medicine?

M r . s.: I d o n ' t t h i n k so.

D r . Y . : Ask him t h e q u e s t i o n , M r . McManus, go ahead,

M r . M. : NO. YOU . . . M r . S.: I d o n ' t r e c a l l t h a t . . . M r . M . : The k i d f o r g o t t o t a k e h i s medic ine . He v i s i t e d ano the r

r e l a t i v e down t h e road a way and he f o r g o t t o t a k e h i s

medicine w i t h him and t h a t saved h i s l i f e . I remember

your t e l l i n g m e a t t h a t t i m e .

M r . S. : A l o t of t h i s s t u f f was being d i s t r i b u t e d o u t of t h e

drug s t o r e s up t h e r e f o r v e n e r e a l c a s e s w i thou t pre-

s c r i p t i o n . W e l l , you c o u l d n ' t h a r d l y g e t a r e c o r d ,

Nobody wanted t o admit t h e y were t a k i n g it, s o it was

more o r less luck ing i n t o it. Somebody knew t h a t some-

body had it.

M r . J . : Why d i d n l ' t t h e y want t o admit t h a t t hey were t a k i n g i t ?

M r . S . : r imagine becailse c f t h e t y p e af i l l n e s s .

M r . J . : I see . I s e e . Did you have any d i f f i c u l t y g e t t i n g t h e

d r u g g i s t t o t e l l you who had bought i t ?

M r . S . : Y e s . You p r a c t i c a l l y had t o f o r c e it o u t o f him. J u s t

keep q u e s t i o n i n g him . . keep q u e s t i o n i n g and sometimes

t h e r e would be somebody bys tanding t h a t would remember

something about it.

M r . J , ; Was it a p r e s c r i p t i o n medicine o r , . , M r . S . : I t was supposed t o be s o l d under p r e s c r i p t i o n .

M r . J . : Were many of t h e people who bought it a b l e t o g e t it

wi thou t a p r e s c r i p t i o n ?

M r . S . : T h i s i s what I was t r y i n g t o t e l l you about t h e . , /

where t h e r e was v e n e r e a l d i s e a s e , it seems a p p a r e n t l y

t h e y were.

D r . Y , : Gonorrhea, I t h i n k it was supposed t o be , it r e a l l y was

v e r y p o t e n t . Su l f an i l amide was a ve ry p o t e n t and e f f e c t i v e

medicine f o r gonorrhea.

M r . S . : I was j u s t one of many t h a t was going o u t p i ck ing t h i s

UP* I t h i n k t h e r e was one s t h e r who had a r e a l , r e a l

expe r i ence . . . one of t h e o t h e r , , ,

M r . M : Monte Rentz . , . h e ' s n o t p lanning t o be h e r e , i s he?

D r . Y . r NO,

M r . S . : W e l l , t h e n I might ment ion t h i s . He had t w o i n c i d e n t s .

I b e l i e v e one of them mentioned i n your Emory t h i n g ,

you remember, about t h e graveyard . . . f i n d i n g t h e produc t

i n t h e grave .

D r . Y . : T e l l t h a t s t o r y a s f u l l y a s you can remember i t , M r .

KcManus.

M r . M . : Well , M r . Rentz went over t o e a s t e r n South Ca ro l ina t h e r e

and found a c e r t a i n d o c t o r had g o t t e n a whole g a l l o n of

t h e p roduc t , and he had q u i t e a l o t of s ea rch ing t o do to

f i n d t h e d i s t r i b u t i o n . And, i n one of t h e c a s e s , t h e r e

was a d e a t h . He found t h a t t h e man had d i e d and t h e fami ly

d i d n o t know anyth ing about t h e medicine excep t ing t h e y

s a i d sometimes they were p u t on t h e g raves . So he went

o u t t h e r e and i n a d d i t i o n t o t h e faded f l o w e r s , v a s e s of

t h e f l ower s , he found t h e b o t t l e of s u l f a n i l a m i d e on t o p

of t h e grave . And, of c o u r s e , he took t h a t w i t h him t o

p reven t i t s i l l e g a l use o r dangerous use be fo re .

D r . Y . : Now t h i s was a f o l k custom o f t h a t a r e a ?

M r . M . : Yes. The people i n t h o s e days w e r e q u i t e i s o l a t e d due

t o t h e absence o f roads and b r i d g e s , and t h e y were q u i t e

p r i m i t i v e i n some ways. M r . Rentz had ano the r expe r i ence

which had a humorous ending. One d o c t o r gave among t h e

p a t i e n t s l i s t e d t h e name of a s h e r i f f . So, M r . Rentz

went t o t h e s h e r i f f and s a i d , asked him about it, and he

was n o t c e r t a i n about it. He had g o t t e n some. So he

s a i d , "You mean t h a t i s some of t h e medicine t h a t has

been po isoning t h e people?" And M r . Rentz expla ined

that this particular lot was dangerous. So the . . . he said, "Well, I'm going over to see the doctor. You

can come with me." And he buckled on his belt with his

pistol. Xr. Rentz didn't want to be a participant in

a tragedy, so he protested that he shouldn't do that.

He said, "Oh, that's a part of my uniform. I wear it all

the time." So no harm came from a visit to the doctor,

excepting the recapture of the unused bottle.

Dr. Y.: How do you spell Plr. Rentz' s name?

Mr. M.: R E ti T 2 . His initials are M.O.

Dr. Y.: And he was an inspector out of the Atlanta office?

Mr. M.: Oh, yes. He was.

Dr. Y.: And this episode was in South Carolina?

Mr. M.: Yes. Both episodes.

Mr. J.: When you started in 1908, did they have any number of

sanitation cases in those days? Were you involved in

sanitation right away, or was it some time before you

began to have this tppe of ease?

Mr. M.: Oh, yes. I recall the tomato canneries. They'd save

the peeling for the manufacturers of pulp which was to

be used for the manufacture of catsup and the product

was not protected from fermentation or insect contamination,

and it was a filthy product. But, to yet an objective

finding of evidence of such filth, it took a lot of work

which was done by the late Dr. Burton J. Howard of the

Micro-analytical Laboratory, and we were often stymied.

I recall making two inspections, one in 1913, and one in

1915, i n t h e t i d e w a t e r of V i r g i n i a and i n t h e mountains

of V i r g i n i a i n a l l t h e s e c a n n e r i e s . Very few of them

were s a n i t a r y i n t h e handl ing of t h e produc t . F o r t u n a t e l y ,

it was processed a t a t empera ture which k i l l e d t h e

pa thogenic organisms, bu t it was f i l t h i n t h e sense

of t h e c o u r t s ' d e c i s i o n s . Some of t h e c o u r t s , I remember,

s a i d t h a t t h e f i l t h t h a t cannot be seen i s more r ep re -

h e n s i b l e t han t h a t t h a t can be seen because t h e customer

i s n ' t g e t t i n g , i s being t r e a t e d u n f a i r l y when it i s masked

by t h e c o n d i t i o n s of packing.

M r . J . : Did you have t o t e s t i f y a t any of t h o s e e a r l y f i l t h ca ses?

M r . M . : No. I d o n ' t t h i n k so. I ' v e been i n t h e f a c t o r i e s w i th

t h e i n s p e c t o r s . I remember t h e m i c e i n f e s t a t i o n was

q u i t e a problem, o f cou r se , and r a t i n f e s t a t i o n .

M r . J . : How e a r l y d i d you have any s h o r t weight c a s e s ?

M r . M . : I had one i n Chattanooga i n 1 9 . . . w e l l , it was b e f o r e

World War I. I recall it was packing g r o s s f o r n e t

which, s l n c e a f l o u r sack weighs s a y o n l y s ix ounces ,

a twenty-four pound sack was n o t being skimped very much,

b u t when it was cons idered it was a thousand b a r r e l m i l l

and t h a t pe rcen tage w a s n e t p r o f i t and a l s o s i n c e people

e a t a l o t of f l o u r p roduc t s d u r i n g a y e a r , t h e r e was a

c h e a t involved t h e r e and, of c o u r s e , u n f a i r compet i t ion

w i t h t h e hones t m i l l e r . I r e c a l l one c a s e we had a t

Chattanooga. The produc t came down t o Savannah, and we

weighed i t c a r e f u l l y . When t h e y brought up, a s a defense

measure, t h e shr inkage due t o wea ther ing , w e showed by

t h e Weather Bureau f i g u r e s which I had g o t t e n p r e v i o u s l y ,

t h a t Savannah had more humidi ty t han Chattanooga. That

seemed t o impress t h e j u r y , and we g o t a v e r d i c t f o r t h e

government.

D r . Y . : Now, how d i d t h a t humidity f a c t o r f i t i n t o t h e s i t u a t i o n ,

xr. McManus?

M r . M . : \Tell, i f t h e humidity was l e s s , l i k e sh ipp ing t o Denver,

f o r example, t h e mo i s tu re i n t h e f l o u r which i s about 8%

normally would have decreased and t h e r e might have been

a sh r inkage i n weight i n t h a t c a s e which was u n l i k e l y , b u t

it was p o s s i b l e t h a t humidity i s a f a c t o r , s o it was

u n l i k e l y i n t h e Savannah c a s e where samples were taken

and s t o r e d b e f o r e t h e . . . D r . Y . : There t h e humidi ty would have been h i g h e r , and t h e weight

would have been g r e a t e r .

M r . M.: The Weather Bureau r e c o r d s showed it, s o t h a t was one

c a s e t h a t invoked t h e r e c o r d s . O f c o u r s e , c o r n meal ,

w e had a s a n i t a t i o n problem t h e r e , and we a l s o . . , The f i r s t problem we had w i t h co rn meal was t h e count ry

consumer 's l i k i n g f o r water-ground corn meal. H e had seen

it f o r g e n e r a t i o n s , and t h e t heo ry was t h a t t h e s lower

speed of t h e m i l l s t o n e s d i d n o t i n j u r e t h e germ o f t h e

co rn a s much a s t h e speedy e l e c t r i c powered m i l l s . So

water-ground m e a l was t h e popula r name f o r corn meal.

We had one c a s e i n South Ca ro l ina where we g o t a v e r d i c t

f o r t h e government on t h e grounds t h a t water-ground

w a s m i s l ead ing when it was e lec t r ic -powered .

Mr. J.: They didn?t know anything about vitamins in those days?

Mr. M.: No. Those were the days when corn meal was suspected

the cause of pellagra. Of course, the actual scientific

investigations made later showed that it was a vitamin

deficiency, and it just so happened that the poor people

who often were afflicted had a limited diet of which corn

meal was a big thing. But I recall that Public Health

was working on it; Dr. Goldberger and Dr. Lavender

were in Savannah. But, I think Dr. Spies of Alabama was

the chief discoverer of the value of niacin as a preventive

of pellagra. Of course, one . . . South Carolina passed a law saying that corn meal should not have a certain . . . exceed a certain figure in acidity. That referred to the

fatty acid in the germ which was included in the grinding

of the meal for Southern consumption, and that resulted

in better care of the meal and the corn and the dis-

continuance of carload shipments which stood around all

summer and got bugs and probably some sourness as a re-

sult of the fatty acid in the germ oxidizing.

Dr. Y.: Kind of rotting right in the cars. I want to turn the

tape over because we are just about to the end of this

side of the reel, and after I come back on, I want to

ask about some of the Sherley Amendment cases that you

may have had something to do with during the crash cam-

paign that occurred after the Sherley Amendment was

enacted into law in 1912. Mr. McManus, do you suggest that

some of your early activity had to do with the problem

of t h e a d u l t e r a t i o n o f O i l of Wintergreen w i t h O i l of

B i r ch , i s t h a t r i g h t ?

M r . M . : Y e s . W e had s e v e r a l r e p o r t s from t h e New York e s s e n t i a l

o i l d e a l e r s t h a t t h e O i l of Wintergreen which was s e l l i n g

a t about $5.00 a pound and t h e O i l of Sweet B i r ch , which

was s e l l i n g a t $2.00 a pound, w e r e being a d u l t e r a t e d

by methyl s a l i c y l a t e , a s y n t h e t i c p roduc t a t 50C a

pound. The d i f f i c u l t y was i n f i n d i n g a tes t which would

s t a n d up i n c o u r t , s i n c e t h e s e n a t u r a l o i l s were about

99 and a f r a c t i o n p e r c e n t of methyl s a l i c y l a t e . They

had bouquets o r odo r s , a s t h e o i l men c la imed, t h a t were

n o t p r e s e n t i n t h e s y n t h e t i c p roduc t and t h e r e f o r e ,

t hey bought t h e n a t u r a l p roduc t . Now, i n North C a r o l i n a ,

i n t h e mountains o f Nor theas te rn Tennessee and Northwestern

North C a r o l i n a , t h e r e were s e v e r a l d i s t i l l e r s of t h e

bark of t h e r o o t of sweet b i r c h , Be tu l a l e n t a . A s I r e c a l l

it, t h e Washington l a b o r a t o r y want,ed t o g e t some a u t h e n t i c

o i l t h a t cou ld be ana lyzed , and t h e r e s u l t s become a

m a t t e r o f t es t imony. So, a chemis t and I went up t o

North Ca ro l ina and a r ranged w i t h one o f t h e s e d i s t i l l e r s

t o make s e v e r a l pounds of O i l of Sweet Bi rch . W e checked

t h e bark a s it went i n , and t h e n it was macerated i n o r d e r

t o develop t h e enzymic a c t i o n which would r e l e a s e o r form

t h e o i l . Then it was d i s t i l l e d i n a l a r g e , c rude s t i l l .

W e s t ayed t h e r e a l l n i g h t i n a l ean- to t o g e t some.

W e g o t abou t six p i n t s , which I t h i n k we pa id f o r . I

r e c a l l t h e chemist was k ind of nervous about t h e mountain

peop le , He had heard stories about them s o he brought

an o l d p i s t o l w i t h him and p a t it under h i s p i l l o w ,

I n t h e morning, w e were awakened by a p i s t o l s h o t .

One o f t h e d i s t i l l e r s had come i n , seen t h e handle o f

t h e p i s t o l , p u l l e d it o u t from t h e g u y ' s p i l l o w , and

s h o t it o f f t o wake u s up . But, then ano the r t ime , I

was s e n t t o t h e . . . D r . Y . : Can you d a t e t h i s expe r i ence , g e t t i n g t h e b i r c h o i l ?

M r . M . : That was i n 1 9 1 8 . And t h e n , I t h i n k it was e a r l i e r t han

t h a t . I was i n Pennsylvania g e t t i n g O i l of Wintergreen.

Up t h e Lehigh Va l l ey on t h e White Haven Sec t ion t h e r e .

There were s e v e r a l d i s t i l l e r s of Wintergreen. The

win te rg reen is a sma l l p l a n t , and i t was u s u a l l y picked

by t h e women and c h i l d r e n who had no o t h e r employment and

brought i n , and t h e n it had t o be soaked i n s e v e r a l . . . i n a t ank f o r s e v e r a l days , I t h i n k , t o r e l e a s e t h e enzyme

I g u e s s which would a c t on t h e c o n s t i t u e n t s of t h e l e a v e s

and t h a t l i k e w i s e was d i s t i l l e d . I a l s o had a s i m i l a r

p roduc t i n New York t h e r e w i t h an o l d Englishman who had

a l i t t l e s t i l l . H e l e t u s u s e t h e s t i l l . H e was somewhat

d i s t u r b e d when w e p u t a s e a l on t h e s t i l l , b u t we t o l d

him w e had t o be a b l e t o s a y nobody had opened t h e s t i l l

o r any th ing l i k e t h a t . Then, a l a r g e p a r t of t h e t ime

was watching t h e r e c e i p t of t h e s e shipments of methyl

s a l i c y l a t e from t h e N e w York chemical houses and checking

t h e r e c e i v e r s of them s o t h a t t h e i r shipments of a l l e q e d

b i r c h o i l and win te rgreen o i l could be watched and sampled.

0

Dr. Y.:

Mr. M.:

Mr. J.:

Mr. M.:

It developed that the evidence of additional substances

was too small to justify court action, and when the total

value of the birch oil consumed was disclosed by a survey,

Mr. Campbell decided that that was not worth the man-hours

spent and we discontinued the birch oil thing and left

it up to other people. It didn't seem to be any health

feature involved in it. It was a matter of the expert

perfumer likinq the true oil of wintergreen. It wrobably

had a smoother smell.

Where were the processing ~lants where it was suspected

this adulteration was taking place?

There was one in Avery County, N.C. and another in . . . it was right around Hickory, N.C. So this was in Ashe

County, That was the wintergreen countv.

Do you remember any food adulteration cases in these

early days?

Well, we had the pepper shell, but I was not the chief

investigator of that, although I had an incident in it.

White pepper is the pepper berry which has been decorticated,

that is, the outer hull. It's different from ;the common

pepper which is the unripe berry. So this left a surplus

in the pepper-growing East Indies of pepper shells, and

they had some use as an appetizer for cattle food. That

was the ostensible reason for importing, but the quantity

became so large that it was suspected that they were

being added to pepper. And microscopically, they couldn't

be detected because they were part of the same thing in

green pepper from t h e c e l l u l o s e s t a n d p o i n t . The f i b e r

c o n t e n t was inc reased somewhat by t h e u s e , b u t t h e c h i e f

f r a u d w a s t h a t t h e y were u s e l e s s , . . o r n o t u s e l e s s . . . b u t v e r y d e f i c i e n t i n any f l a v o r . I t was an a d u l t e r a t i o n

t h a t would be d i f f i c u l t t o d e t e c t . So, t h e Bal t imore

i n s p e c t o r fol lowed through on one of t h e l o t s , and it

was found t h a t . . . thought r a t h e r , t h a t a t r a c e o f

q u i n i n e cou ld be added, q u i n i n e a l k a l o i d , which i s

s o l u b l e i n a l c o h o l . . . could be added and d e t e c t e d

even i n minute q u a n t i t y . So, t h i s i n s p e c t o r , du r ing h i s

i n s ~ e c t i o n of t h e pepper s h e l l s , was a b l e t o i n j e c t t h e

q u i n i n e s o l u t i o n i n t h e r e and l a t e r t h e so -ca l l ed whole

pepper , qround whole pepper , was examined, and t h i s

t r a c e of q u i n i n e was found by t h e v e r v s e n s i t i v e teqt

t h a t a New York chemis t had develooed. I t h i n k it was a

man named qeeker , you remember?

D r . Y . : How do you s p e l l h i s name?

M r . M . : Seeker , A l f r ed Seeker , S E E K E R. And I had a s i d e

c a s e o f t h a t . I was down i n lower New Y ~ r kone day, and

I saw a b i g t r u c k of e l e p h a n t t u s k s go by. So, being

c u r i o u s , I looked c l o s e a t t h e t r u c k which was moving slowly

by h o r s e s and no t i ced t h a t t hey were going t o t h e Brunswick

Balke Ca l l ende r people . But, whi le I was t h e r e , ano ther

t r u c k came a long , and I g o t a whiff of pepper. I d i d n ' t

see what pepper was do ing i n t h a t p a r t of New York be-

cause t h e s p i c e s e c t i o n was around F r o n t S t r e e t . So I

fol lowed t h a t and found it went t o Bal t imore Steamship

Company, and it was consigned t o ano the r pepper d e a l e r

down t h e r e who w a s fo l lowing t h e c a s e of t h i s o t h e r

man. So w e rushed back t o t h e l a b o r a t o r y an6 t o l d

them o f o u r f i n d i n g , and they gave u s two v e t e r i n a r i a n

s y r i n g e s and two q u a r t s o f q u i n i n e a l k a l o i d s o l u t i o n .

W e were t o i n j e c t an ounce of t h i s i n every bag, you

s e e .

D r . Y . : Were you supposed t o do t h i s s u r r e p t i o u s l y s o t hey d i d n ' t

know it had happened?

M r . M.: W e l l , w e h o n e s t l y thought t h e s t u f f , being i n i n t e r s t a t e

commerce and on t h e docks , t h a t we d i d n o t add anyth ing

t h a t would s p o i l it, and s o i t was done, and it was

cha l l enged though by t h e Bal t imore c a s e . It was cha l lenged

i n c o u r t . The c o u r t r u l e d t h a t he could s e e no d i f f e r e n c e

i n t h a t t y p e of markina, a s we c a l l e d it, than t h e p o s t a l

i n s p e c t o r who marked a d o l l a r b i l l t o s e e i f t h e r e was

a d i s h o n e s t man handl ing t h e m a i l s . And how t h a t would

s t a n d up under t h e p r e s e n t i n t e r p r e t a t i o n s of p r i v a c y , I

do n o t know, b u t it served i t s purpose i n t h o s e days .

D r . Y . t What was t h e d a t e of t h a t marking, do you remember?

~ o u g h l y speaking.

M r . M.: I was s t a t i o n e d i n New York, s o it must have been abou t

' 15 o r ' 1 6 , 1915 o r 1916.

D r . Y . : R igh t , You were going on t o a n o t h e r c a s e .

M r . M . c W e l l , t h e r e were two c a s e s , b u t t h i s c a s e t h a t I was

involved i n , t h a t was n o t c o n t e s t e d . They took it back

and d i d something w i t h it.

D r . Y.r I wanted t o a s k yau a q u e s t i o n abou t t h e Shelrley mend?

ment c a s e s . The She r l ey Amendment was passed i n 1 9 1 2 ,

a s I r e c a l l . D r . Alsberg who fol lowed D r . h i l e y s e t up

a k ind of a c r a s h program wi th r e s p e c t t o Sher ley Amend-

ment abuses i n the p a t e n t medicine f i e l d , Did your service

a s an i n s p e c t o r i nvo lve any of t h o s e c a s e s ?

M r . M . : Oh, yes . W e made surveys . F i r s t t h e r e were, a s I r e c a l l ,

t h e v e n e r e a l d i s e a s e c a s e s i n which t h e compounds were

l a r g e l y s a n d a l o i l and balsam of copaiba i n an emulsion

which i s supposed t o be a n t i s e p t i c a s it passed through

t h e kidneys and t h e u r i n a r y t r a c t . B u t t h e Drug Div i s ion

f e l t t h a t t h e r e could n o t be a v a l i d de fense t o such

c rude t r e a t m e n t i n t h e l i g h t of t h e b a c t e r i o l o g i s t s '

knowledge of what t h e y c a l l e d t h e n e i s s e r i a gonococci .

I guess you c a l l them b a c t e r i a . So, t h o s e c a s e s were

a t t a c k e d q u i t e f r e q u e n t l y and s e i z u r e s , s u c c e s s f u l

s e i z u r e s were made. I t h i n k t h e y w e r e g r a d u a l l y e l imina t ed

a s f a r a s t h e i n t e r s t a t e t r a f f i c was concerned. Then

t h e r e were t h e blood medic ines . There was a . . . The common t r e a t m e n t was mercury and i o d i n e , and t h e r e

were a l s o some v e g e t a b l e d r u g s - - s a r s p a r i l l a , I mean t h e

t r u e s a r s p a r i l l a . Mexican s a r s a p a r i l l a was supposed t o

have some v a l u e and t h o s e , o f cou r se w e r e d i f f i c u l t t o

de te rmine . But I r e c a l l two men coming i n t o my o f f i c e .

They were somewhat i l l i t e r a t e .

D r . Y,: When was t h i s ?

M r . M,; I c a n ' t fix t h e d a t e , bu t I guess it was i n t h e 2 0 ' s .

f t was l a te r t h a n u s u a l , b u t it is an i l l u s t ~ a t i o nof t h e

way t h e s e medicines were used by people w i th l a c k o f >

knowledge, These two men, somewhat i l l i t e r a t e , came i n

and they wanted t o r e g i s t e r a drug they were going t o

p u t o u t f o r blood cond i t i ons . k d they t o l d me what it

was. It was b i c h l o r i d e of mercury and potassium iod ide

and they t o l d me what t h e dose was and t h e amount, I

c a l c u l a t e d t h e dose o f mercur ic i o d i d e which was t h e

form it was i n t hen , and it was ve ry heavy, f a r above

t h e recommended dosage i n t h e Pharmacopoeia. 1 asked

him why he thought t h i s was any good. This was i n t h e

days when, a f t e r E h r l i c h found t h e a r s e n i c a l s b u t b e f o r e ,

of cou r se , t h e a n t i b i o t i c s , and t h i s man s a i d , "Well, i f

you p u t t h i s i o d i n e and mercury t o g e t h e r , you g e t a r e d

c o l o r . Now t h a t ' s t h e blood. Then, i f you p u t more

i o d i n e i n it, t h e red c o l o r d i s a p p e a r s , t h a t ' s t h e

t r e a t m e n t , " And t h a t was an o l d c i r c u s s t u n t which w a s n ' t

new, s o I s e n t t h i s man over t o t h e S t a t e Drug Inspec to r

who had p o l i c e power and d i ssuaded him. But another

c a s e which was somewhat humorous and y e t , se r ious- - there

was q u i t e a l o t of m a l a r i a i n Georgia and t h e Southern

s t a t e s up t o , I guess , World War I , when the Rockefe l le r

I n s t i t u t e made some scientific s t u d i e s . The i r conc lus ion

was t h a t m a l a r i a could be t r e a t e d w i t h q u i n i n e . , . needed 1 5 g r a i n s a day f o r so many weeks and than l a t e r

5 g r a i n s a day f o r months, and t h e r e were a number of

c h i l l t o n i c s p u t o u t throughcut t h e South. And w e had

c l eaned them u p under t h e She r l ey Rmendment, b u t t h i s

one showed up i n Georgia and came o u t of F l c r i d a , s o we

i s s u e d a c i t a t i o n . A man came u p t o answer it. He was

q u i t e f r a n k . H e s a i d he was a banker ; he had had a h e a r t

a t t a c k , and he t r i e d t o g e t i n t o some easy work, and t h i s

d r u g g i s t s o l d him t h i s p roduc t . So I p a t i e n t l y t o l d him

what t h e Rocke fe l l e r Institute had found o u t . I s a i d ,

"You h a v e n ' t g o t enough q u i n i n e t h e r e t o s t a r t w i th ,

b u t i f you had enough, you c o u l d n ' t g i v e it wi th a l l

t h a t Epsom S a l t s because t h e man would be d i scharged ."

H e s a i d , "Well, i t ' s t h i s way, t h i s d rug o r medicine

i s s o l d t o i l l i t e r a t e people . When t h e y buy a medicine ,

they want something d r a m a t i c , s o we have t o p u t t h e

Fpsom S a l t s i n , he c o u l d n ' t . . . i f he had more q u i n i n e ,

he c o u l d n ' t g i v e it t o t h e p a t i e n t because t h e y ' d s u f f e r . "

And he had a l i t t l e t i n c t u r e o f i r o n i n t h e r e t o g i v e it

a ye l low c o l o r . And I asked him, I s a i d , "Why d i d you

p u t t h e i r o n i n t h e r e , you h a v e n ' t enough t o t r e a t t h e

anemias, i f t h e y ' r e p r e s e n t . " He s a i d , "Ah, t h a t ' s

t h e s e l l i n g p o i n t . I r o n w i l l g i v e a b lack s t o o l , and t h a t

i s t h e poison coming o u t of t h e system." So, a s I s a i d ,

he was a k ind of open-minded f e l l ow. H e s a i d , " I ' m i n t h e

wrong b u s i n e s s . I x i 1 1 g e t o u t of it and q u i t t h a t . "

D r . Y . : So t h e r e d i d n ' t have t o be a f e d e r a l c a s e , H e j u s t

q u i t .

M r . M. : No. HE q u i t . He d i d n ' t want t o have any t r o u b l e w i t h

h i s h e a r t , Another e n l i g h t e n i n g t h i n g was when t h e new

a c t was passed i n '38, t h e r e was a la.rge b u s i n e s s i n t h e

headache problem. They had o r i g i n a l l y s t a r t e d o u t w i t h

a c e t a n i l i d and t h e n sometimes wi th camphor monobromate

and c a f f e i n e , and then they switched t o phenace t in some-

t i m e s . Th i s w a s a ve ry l a r g e one, and they s e n t an

a t t o r n e y down, a v e r y prominent man, who l a t e r became

a s e n a t o r and governor .

D r . Y . : A r e you w i l l i n g t o say h i s name?

M r . M . : No. I won ' t , h e ' s dead s o . . . D r . Y.: Okay.

M r . M . : But , anyhow, I c i t e t h e c a s e a s showing an i n t e l l i g e n t

a p p r e c i a t i o n of what we were t r y i n g t o do. This man s a i d ,

"You d o n ' t have t o t e l l m e t h a t t h i s drug i s harmful ,

I know it from my own pe r sona l o b s e r v a t i o n , b u t t h e

people whom I r e p r e s e n t d i d n ' t know it. I t ' s been i n

t h e f ami ly f o r y e a r s and ve ry p r o f i t a b l e t o them. So

what I am going t o do i s t o g e t some medical adv ice , and

then I ' m going t o your Washington o f f i c e t o see i f I ' m

r i g h t . " The formula was changed t o a less d e l e t e r i o u s

produc t . That was one of t h e hopefu l t h i n g s one sometimes

g e t s .

D r . Y . : You were a b l e t o t a l k people i n t o . . , M r . M . : Yes, t h e r e a r e some . . . D r . Y . : Abandoning t h e s e shady p r a c t i c e s .

M r . M . : W e l l , t h e r e were a few. I r e c a l l one t ime . , . t h i s

was way back i n . . . be fo re World War I . The Department

of A g r i c u l t u r e was havinq e x h i b i t s a t s t a t e f a i r s and

somehow t h e Food and Drug Rdmin i s t r a t i on g o t i n some s e t ~ u p .

I t was, I t h i n k , about a s b i g a s this t a b l e f it was c a l l e d

"The Ash Heapt'. I t was made of p a p i e r mache, and t h e

s t u f f i n t h e r e was s e v e r a l of t h e s e medic ines t h a t had

been condemned, you see . And a s t a t e drug i n s p e c t o r

came t o me and he s a i d , "Look what I found a t t h e S t a t e

F a i r . " You w i l l p u t t h i s famous remedy, by t h e way, it

was known a s "Mother ' s F r i end" . I t was a f l a v o r e d co t ton -

seed o i l t h a t was supposed t o be rubbed on t h e pregnant

woman t o e a s e h e r d e l i v e r y l a t e r . And, of c o u r s e , it

had no t h e r a p e u t i c v a l u e t o i t , b u t it happened t o be a

formula t h a t was owned by a v e r y prominent f ami ly . And

t h e S t a t e Drug I n s p e c t o r was a p p a l l e d t h a t w e had p u t t h a t

p roduc t on t h e "Ash Heap", s o - c a l l e d , s o w e p a t i e n t l y

exp la ined t o him what had been done and what was needed

and what he should do. So he was supposed t o have t o l d

t h e fami ly . I t has long s i n c e passed o u t of t h e people

who developed it.

D r . Y . : What s tate was t h i s ?

. M.: T h i s was Georgia.

M r . J.: When you mzde i n s p e c t i o n s i n t h o s e days , d i d you encounte r

any h o s t i l i t y o r d i f f i c u l t y g e t t i n g i n t o a . . . M r . M . : Well , i n New York, I guess I had s e v e r a l y e a r s i n New

York a s an i n s p e c t o r ; sometimes they on ly l a s t e d s i x

months, b u t one t i m e , I was s e n t o u t t o i n s p e c t a p l a n t

t h a t had a famous l i v e r p i l l . And, i n t h o s e days , w e

had no a u t h o r i t y t o demand a formula. So t h i s f i r m

p o l i t e l y t o l d m e , r d o n ' t know ifit was p o l i t e l y o r n o t ,

t h e y t o l d m e t h e y d i d n ' t have t o t e l l m e ; they d i d n ' t

have t o l e t me i n s p e c t it, and i f I wanted t o buy some

of t h e p i l l s , I could go t o a drug s t o r e . So, on t h e

way o u t o f t h e o f f i c e , a f t e r t h a t b r u s h - o f f , I n o t i c e d

a whole b a s k e t of t h e s e p i l l s p u t up. I picked one up

and looked a t it and, l o and behold, i t had t h e formula

on it and, a s I r e c a l l , it was something l i k e rhubarb ,

podophyl l in , i p e c a c and be l ladonna , and I s a i d , "May I

have one of t h e s e ? I see it has t h e formula r i g h t on

t h e l a b e l . " H e s a i d , "Well, t h o s e a r e f o r Argent ina ,

and t h e y r e q u i r e t h e formula s t a t e d . " But, he s a i d ,

"Don't r e p o r t t h a t a s t h e composit ion of our domest ic

p roduc t because, where t h e formula i s r e q u i r e d , we f e e l

t h a t a b e t t e r impress ion i s made on t h e purchaser by

having m u l t i p l e d rugs , and s o we have added v e r y minute

amoants of t h e s e l a s t two d rugs h e r e , bu t t h e American

Product i s mere ly t h e rhubarb and podophyl l in , which a r e

i n t e s t i n a l i r r i t a n t s , emodin bea r ing d rugs a s t h e y a r e

c a l l e d , Another t i m e , when pheno lp tha l e in became popular

a s a l a x a t i v e , I w a s s e n t o u t . Th i s must have been back

i n 1 9 1 4 ; 1 9 1 2 , I t h i n k . We were asked t o g e t some

in fo rma t ion on t h a t . W e could n o t f i n d t h e company on

t h e l a b e l i n t h e d i r e c t o r y , s o we went t o one of t h e

wholesa le d r u g g i s t s and he s a i d , ''Oh, w e g e t t h a t from

t h e Windta r t , W 3. N D T A R T , Company,

a D r . Y. : I n N e w York C i t y ?

M r . M.; New York C i t y . W e found o u t t h a t t h e Windta r t Company

s u p p l i e d baked goods t o t h e s e b r e a k f a s t s t a n d s , r e s t a u r a n t s

f o r b r e a k f a s t , you see. That w a s t h e t h i n g . But u p s t a i r s ,

t hey had a t a b l e i n a room about a s b i g a s t h i s and t h i s

p r o d . ~ c t was phenophthale in i n a c h o c o l a t e mass, l i k e

l i t t l e p l a t e l e t s of choco la t e . You break one o f f and

t h a t was i n s t e a d o f a p i l l , ycu see. And they were doing

t h a t . So t h e y were n o t manufac tur ing a t t h e t ime , b u t

t h e r e was a g r e a t b ig s e t t e r dog on t h e t a b l e where t h e y

manufactured, and no th ing i n t h e room f o r c o n t r o l o r

any th ing e l s e . E suppose t h e . , . a l l he had t o do was

measure i t o u t and s t i r i t up. I ' d h a t e t o g e t t h e

t h i n g from t h e bottom of t h e k e t t l e though. I t h i n k it

might have more than neces sa ry ,

Another t h i n g i n N e w York which I was an obse rve r ;

i n t h o s e e a r l y days b e f o r e t h e a n t i - d i p h t h e r i t i c and

Schick tests were p r e s e n t , d i p h t h e r i a was a s e r i o u s d i s e a s e .

The ambulance men used t o c a r r y i ncuba t ion sets and

sometimes tracheotomy s e t s when they were c a l l e d o u t t o

a s t r a n g l i n g c h i l d , e t c . and t h e r e was a concern i n N e w

York t h a t had a cough medic ine , e s s e n t i a l l y a cough

medic ine , b u t which they claimed was used f o r d i p h t h e r i a .

We c o u l d n ' t touch it because t h e y d i d n o t g e t o u t of t h e

s t a t e , But w e c a l l e d it t o t h e N e w York Hea l th Department

which has broad powers under g e n e r a l terms. The unfor-

t u n a t e man who was s e l e c t e d t o p r o s e c u t e , i n s t e a d of pro-

s e c u t i n g t h e manufac ture r and sh ippe r of t h e produc t ,

he dec ided t o pFO'SeCUte the vendor , t h e d i s t r i b u t o r ,

And t h e r e was i n N e w York a t t h a t tlkne, a f i r m t h a t made

a s p e c i a l t y of supplying a l l k inds of p r o p r i e t a r y medi-

c i n e s . It may s t i l l e x i s t f o r a l l I know, I t ' s t h e

Char les C r i t t e n d e n Company. The i r e s t a t e was running

t h i s f i r m f o r t u r n i n g t h e p r o f i t s ove r t o a home f o r

f r i e n d l e s s women o r women i n d i s t r e s s . And, of c o u r s e ,

when they g o t C r i t t e n d e n i n c o u r t , it was brought o u t

t h z t t h e y d i d n ' t know t h e composi t ion of t h e p roduc t s

t h e y were s e l l i n g , and it was a good i l l u s t r a t i o n of

s e l e c t i n g , of t h e need of s e l e c t i n g t h e r e s p o n s i b l e

people vhen p r o s e c u t i o n s a r e i n s t i t u t e d ,

D r . Y . : They . . . t h a t had gone back c l e a r i n t o t h e n i n e t e e n t h

c e n t u r y , t h a t C r i t t e n d e n Company.

M r . M . : Y e s . But t hey d i d n ' t know. Why d i d n ' t t hey p rosecu te

t h i s f e l l o w over i n Brooklyn who shipped it. I ' v e

f o r g o t t e n t h e name of t h e c a s e , b u t I remember it was , . . M r . J.: On your a u t h o r i t y t o i n s p e c t , I s e e m t o r e c a l l a q u o t a t i o n

a t t r i b u t e d t o M r . Campbell a long t h e l i n e s t h a t he s a i d

t h a t you r e a l l y d i d n ' t have any r e a l l e g a l b a s i s f o r

i n s p e c t i o n under t h e 1 9 0 6 a c t . You j u s t went ahead

u n t i l t h e mind of man runne th t o t h e c o n t r a r y , o r something

l i k e t h i s , D o you remember t h i s obse rva t ion?

M r . M. : W e l l , I remember i n N e w York, I ' d go back t o t h e c h i e f ,

it w a s a M r . Ha r t a t t h a t t ime, and he would say , "I

c a n ' + g i v e you t h e a u t h o r i t y . " I remembered one t i m e

I p r o t e s t e d r a t h e r l oud ly . I s a i d , "Here ' s t h i s guy,

he comes i n a s an impor t e r , you give him a handshake,

etc., and he k i c k s us o u t when we t r y t o g e t any i n f o r -

mat ion from him." And he s a i d , " W e l l , t h a t ' s t h e law.

He knows t h e law b e t t e r t han we do ." But t h a t , of cou r se ,

was remedied i n t h e Act o f ' 3 8 . We d i d g e t a l o t of

i n fo rma t ion by pe r suas ion and some obse rva t ion I guess

i s a n o t h e r good way.

D r . Y . : You were never t h r e a t e n e d w i t h p h y s i c a l v io l ence?

M r . M.: No, I w a s n ' t , No, I d i d n ' t have t h a t t r o u b l e . I had

rough customers i n New York and Chicago, I mean they

w e r e less cour t eous . But we u s u a l l y went i n e a s y ,

There were some i n c i d e n t s . L e t ' s s e e . I could s k i p t o

a couple of food i n c i d e n t s , i f you wanted t o . , . going back t o t h a t shrimp, you might . U s e a s c i s s o r s

and g e t it back t h e r e a g a i n . I n t h e shrimp c a n n e r i e s ,

the produc t i s r e l a t i v e l y s imple . The shrimp a r e p e e l e d ,

b o i l e d i n a b r i n e s o l u t i o n , al lowed t o d r a i n , weighed

i n t o a can ; some more weaker b r i n e added, then t h e y

processed it a t abou t 240° f o r a d e s i r e d t i m e . One man

had a b i g jug on t h e r e and s a i d add s o many ounces of t h i s

t o each k e t t l e of b r i n e t h a t you cook t h e shrlmp i n .

W e asked him what it was, and he s a i d , "Oh, t h a t ' s a

joke t h a t caused m e a l o t of t r o u b l e . " He s a i d t h a t one

t i m e his foreman te lephoned up t o t h e o f f i c e and s a i d ,

"We're a l l o u t of t h a t Formula X t h a t you p u t i n t h e b r i n e . "

And he s a i d , "The purpose of it was t h a t employees and

o t h e r o b s e r v e r s coming i n t o t h e p l a n t might t h i n k t h e

p r o c e s s was a s simple as it r e a l l y was." So he had

added an X f a c t o r t h e r e which bombshelled , , , boomeranged

on him one day when they were ho ld ing up t h e p l a n t

u n t i l t h e y could g e t i n touch w i t h h i n t o b r i n g it o u t .

We had ano the r man i n F l o r i d a who was packing orange

ju i ce . H e was t r y i n g t o s e l l t h e p l a n t and making q u i t e

a p o i n t t h a t he had a secret fcrmula t h a t helped p re se rve

it. I r e c a l l M r . J . W . S a l e of Washington, and I went

i n t o h i s p l a n t and asked him about t h a t and he s a i d ,

"Oh, w e j u s t p u t a l i t t l e l ime water i n t h e r e . " "Well,

why do you p u t l ine water i n ? " " W e l l , " he s a i d , "I throw

t h e waste o u t h e r e and t h e n I throw a l o t o f l ime on i t ,

and I n o t i c e it s t o p s t h e f e rmen ta t ion of t h e p e e l ,

So I thought I ' d add a l i t t l e l ime water t o it." W e l l ,

we c o u l d n ' t do much about it, because when w e c a l c u l a t e d

t h e amount of l i m e t h a t was added t o t h e orange j u i c e ,

it was n o t much d i f f e r e n t from t h e orange j u i c e i t s e l f .

So w e had no chemical d e t e c t o r i n t h e r e . It d i d n ' t make

any d i f f e r e n c e anyhow. I t w a s one o f t h o s e t r i c k s he

thought would enhance t h e s a l e v a l u e . Bnt he may have

s i n c e r e l y thought t h a t he was p r e s e r v i n g it. I doubt

it though.

D r . Y . : Did you have a n y t h i n s t o do w i t h t h e famous b o t u l i n u s

r i p e o l i v e s ca se?

M r . M.: No. I w a s a ~ i c t i mof s e v e r a l fol low?ups on t h a t .

I remember one t i m e i n F lo r ida r - t app ing 6 0 0 cans of

s p i n a c h o r something t o s e e t h a t it had a hollow sound,

D r . Y . :

M r . M . :

Jr. J . :

M r . M . :

C r . Y . :

M r . S . :

on the t h e o r y t h a t it had f e r q e n t e d ,

I had no i n ~ e s t i g a t i o n son t h a t ,

That was m o s t l y i n C a l i f o r n i a , wasn ' t

Yes, it was.

But d i d n ' t t h e y have a r e c a l l a l l over

Ch, yes . On t h e r i p e o l i v e s . I t was

No, I had n o t been,

i t ?

t h e count ry?

some y e a r s be fo re

t hey g o t back a g a i n ,

Why d o n ' t we l e t you c a t c h your b r e a t h f o r a few minutes .

Now, M r . Schiffman brought some n o t e s , why d o n ' t you speak

from your n o t e s about i n c i d e n t s t h a t . . , This q u e s t i o n he t a l k s about . , , p h y s i c a l v io l ence

t h i n g . , , b r i n g s t o my mind t h i s i n c i d e n t . For a wh i l e

i n Clay County i n Georgia , w e had t r o u b l e w i t h t h e c u r c u l i o

i n s e c t i n peaches , And w e , as a group, went o u t a l l over

t h e s t a t e c u t t i n g peaches a t t h e d i f f e r e n t peach o rcha rds

i n t h e packing sheds . W e l l , I had t o chase up a follow-up

through North Georgia. A t t h e first packing shed I w e n t t o ,

I heard t h a t "when you g e t down t o such and such packing

shed, M r . Such and Such i s always looking f o r you w i t h a

shotgun." W e l l , I thought t h i s was j u s t s o much of a

s t o r y and, a t t h e nex t shed, h e r e comes t h e same informat ion .

"When you g e t down t o s o and s o ' s packing shed, t h i s man

is going t o be looking f o r you w i t h a shotgun, and he

d r i n k s a l o t . " W e l l , t h i s went on from packing shed . . . I guess abou t e i g h t packing sheds down t h e l i n e . So,

f i n a l l y , I came t o t h e packing shed which they were t a l k i n g

about . With some t r e p i d a t i o n , I g o t o u t of t h e c a r and

D r . Y. r

M r . S.:

D r . Y . :

'X.

went over t o t h e packing shed and, s u r e enoughr t h e r e

was t h i s o l d man s i t t i n g t h e r e w i t h a shotgun, Sor he

',d i d n ' t m a k e a move o r any th ing , s o I walked up t o him,

f e e l i n g a l i t t l e b i t on t h e s ca red s i d e , and reached

over and s a i d , "How do you do , I am So and So. " "How

do you do." H e was f a i r l y w e l l under t h e wea ther , b u t he

was p l e a s a n t enough t o t a l k abou t , So, a s I s ay , h e r e

you a r e , down t h e l i n e , s c a r e d t o d e a t h , b u t you f a c e it,

no th ing happened,

You l i v e d a g a i n t o make ano the r i n s p e c t i o n .

Lived a g a i n t o make ano the r i n s p e c t i o n , b u t t h a t one

w a s n ' t t h e most p l e a s a n t of i n s p e c t i o n s . Then, t h e r e

i s a n c t h e r t h i n g I have i n mind, i f you t a l k about

anecdo te s , The o t h e r n i g h t , I w a s s e n t down t o J a c k s o n v i l l e .

I n s p e c t o r Fowler t h e r e had found some r o t t e n f i s h , and I

was t o l d t o go down t o a s s i s t t o conf i rm h i s i n s p e c t i o n

o f t h e f i s h . So w e found t h a t t h i s involved about t h r e e

c a r l o a d s o f f i s h , and w e found them t o be i n f a i r l y

s u b s t a n t i a l decomposit ion. T h i s t h i n g was c o n t e s t e d i n

c o u r t . So l a t e r on , when we went t o b r i n g t h e e x h i b i t

up on t h e e l e v a t o r , a p p a r e n t l y , it was t h e judge who

was t o hear t h e c a s e on t h e e l e v a t o r . And when we g o t

up t o t h e courtroom, we found o u t he d i s q u a l i f i e d himself

because he had smelled t h e sample of f i s h t h a t we were

b r i n g i n g up on t h e e l e v a t o r ,

For goodness s a k e s ,

M r . S.: And a n o t h e r judge took aver t h e case. I don ' t know i f t h a t

was t h e r e a l r e a s o n , h u t t h a t was a p p a r e n t l y t h e one t h a t

was g iven . A s t h e t r i a l p rogressed and we p re sen ted

our ev idence , it was s t o u t l y m a i n t ~ i n e d by t h e defense

t h a t a l l t h e odor t h a t w e were t a l k i n g about of decom-

p o s i t i o n was something t h e f i s h had a t e .

D r . Y,: Not t h e f i s h i t s e l f ?

M r . S . : That was t h e i r d e f e n s e , Can you imagine?

was something t h e f i s h had a t e .

D r . Y . : But t h a t d i d n ' t s t i c k ?

M r . S , : That d i d n ' t s t i c k . W e p r e v a i l e d ,

D r . Y.: Do you have any o t h e r n o t e s t h e r e ?

Decompostion

M r . S . : W e l l , I just have some follow-up , , . on some of t h e

t h i n g s t h a t M r . McManus has been over i n t h e seafood

i n s p e c t i o n . W e used t o make f i e l d t r i p s on t h e i n s p e c t i n g

and p r e p a r i n g f o r t h i s i n s p e c t i o n s e r v i c e t h a t he mentioned.

Th i s i s t h e peach c u r c u l i o I mentioned . . , t h i s i s t h e

s u l f a n i l a m i d e we have a l r e a d y d i s c u s s s d .

M r . J.: That seafood amendment r e a l l y t u rned 3 u t t o be a h e l p

t o t h e Food and Drug Admin i s t r a t i on i n a s o r t of an

u n a n t i c i p a t e d way. I t enabled t h e FDA t o h i r e some people

t h a t t hey wouldn ' t have a f f o r d e d . , , have been a b l e t o

a f f o r d t o t a k e on because it was pa id f o r by t h e i n d u s t r y .

M r . S. : Y e s . I t h i n k you a r e r i g h t ,

M r . J.: So t h e r e were q u i t e a few who s t a r t e d i n a s seafood

i n s p e c t o r s , d i d n ' t they?

M r . S . : Yes. Then moved u p t h e l a d d e r , Q u i t e a few up t h e r e

now. Another t h i n g t h a t happened t h a t had an i n t e r e s t i n g

a s p e c t . . . we had examined i n our l a b o r a t o r y i n t h e

Chris tmas season o r t h e ho l iday season , some candy t h a t

was kmported and w e had found t h a t it conta ined roden t

h a i r s and t h i n g s of f i l t h t h a t w e d i d n ' t t h i n k should

be i n candy, i n d i c a t i n g u n s a n i t a r y c o n d i t i o n s a t t h e p l a n t .

So we d e t a i n e d i t , N e wouldn ' t a l l ow it t o e n t e r t h e p o r t .

I mean, it e n t e r e d t h e p o r t . . . we wouldn ' t a l l o w

it t o s t a y i n t h e count ry . So we were c a l l e d up by t h e

impor t e r p l ead ing t h a t he knew t h a t probably our f a c t s

were r i g h t and 311 t h a t , b u t t h i s candy he had bought

f o r h i s customers f o r Chris tmas g i f t s . And wouldn ' t w e

l e t it l o o s e , s o he could g i v e it t o h i s f r i e n d s and

customers? W e l l , we kind of wondered who h i s f r i e n d s

were, b u t it j u s t seemed t o be an amusing type of excuse

f o r t r y i n g t o g e t goods i n .

D r . Y . : You d i d n ' t b e l i e v e him?

M r . S . : I hoped I d i d n ' t b e l i e v e him.

M r . J . : Neve r the l e s s , he was g i v i n g it away, i n s t e a d of s e l l i n g it.

M r . s , : That made no d i f f e r e n c e . I ' d h a t e t o be h i s f r i e n d ,

i f t h i s was t h e way I ' d be t r e a t e d . I d o n ' t have anyth ing

i n p a r t i c u l a r . . . D r . Y . : Okay. You may t h i n k of something e l s e a s we go ahead.

M r . McManus, you brought some p i c t u r e s . You d i d t h i s

p a r t l y because Commissioner Goddard i s i n t e r e s t e d i n

t h e s e p i c t u r e s . I t h i n k we a r e going t o t r y t o make

arrangements t o have t h e s e p i c t u r e s reproduced, i f you

I,

a r e w i l l i n g t o do t h i s , so t h a t t h e Food and Drug , . M r . M . r I could g i v e them t o you, I have o f t e n . , my room was

k ind of p i l e d u p w i t h s t u f f , and T'd say "Oh, i f I could

o n l y t a l k t o somebody and show them t h i s p i c t u r e , you

see? ; But t h e y a r e dead now o r t hey 've gone beyond

my s e e i n g them. 'My f ami ly , of c o u r s e , i s gone t o o , So

I c a n ' t u s e them. So I ' d be g l ad t o g i v e you anyth ing ,

and you w o n k be burdened w i t h t h e t h i n g . Here ' s t h a t

Wlley t h i n g I g o t , whatever you c a l l it.

D r . Y . : A l l r i g h t . Do you want t o set t h e background f o r t h a t ?

M r . M . : I d o n ' t know. You'd b e t t e r g l a n c e a t it. I d o n ' t want

t o make your t h i n g s t o o t r i v i a l .

M r . J . : I t h i n k any th ing about D r . Wiley i s a p t t o merit

i n c l u s i o n i n t h i s r eco rd .

M r . M . : You've r ead Dunbar 's 1 9 5 9 a r t i c l e . . . D r . Y . : That i s t h e Food, Drug, Cosmetic J o u r n a l ?

M r . M . : Y e s . That i s v e r y good.

M r . J.: Thi s i s t h e poem, i s it, about D r . Wiley?

M r . M . : Y e s .

D r . Y . : Do you want t o be an e l o c u t i o n i s t , M r . McManus, and r ead

it t o u s ? I t i s n ' t a da t ed c l i p p i n g , s o perhaps it would

be a good i d e a , . . M r . M . : I t ' s copyr igh ted i n 1 9 1 1 , . . D r . Y . : Y e s , 1 9 1 1 , b u t w e d o n ' t have t h e e x a c t paper it comes from.

M r . J.: Oh, t h i s i s p r i c e l e s s . Go ahead, p l e a s e ,

D r . Y . : And it comes i n 1 9 1 1 , copyr igh t by George Matthew Adams.

M r , M . : He w a s a co lumnis t t h a t wro te doggere l s t u f f l i k e Don

Marquis.

M r . J. i And Walt 'Mason is h i s pen nm.e?

M r . PI.: Yes, That ' , s his pen name.

D r . Y . : The h e a d l i n e i s 'TJncle Walt Says Today". Why d o n ' t you

r ead it t o us, w i l l you?

M r . M.: One of my r e c o l l e c t i o n s of D r . Wiley i s conta ined i n t h e

c l i p p i n y I hold about t h e t ime I met him which i s pub l i shed

by George Katthew Ad~ms who wrote under t h e name of

"Uncle Wal t" , Walt Mason. And, o l d a s it is , t h e r e a r e

many t h i n g s t h a t a r e t o p i c a l s t i l l l e f t i n it. It s t a r t s

o f f :

"You c a n ' t speak t o o h igh ly of good o l d Doc Wiley,

t h e government ch,mist, our bulwark and hope,

P r o t e c t i n 9 o u r b e l l i e s from c a t s u p and jel l ies and

a l l s o r t s of t h i n g s which a r e loaded wi th dope.

He ' s d e a t h t o t h e f a k e r ; he chases t h e maker of

f r a u d u l e n t remedies , l a b e l e d w i t h l i e s .

H e s e i z e s t h e b u t t e r t o answer t o o t h e r s and p u t s

t h e k ibosh on t h e poisonous p i e s .

Doc Wiley has t h r o t t l e d t h e s i n n e r s who've b o t t l e d

a l l s o r t s of cheap r u b b i s h and l a b e l e d it "Jam".

Courageously, g a i l y , h e ' s guard ing us d a i l y from

d i s h o n e s t s a u e r k r a u t and v i t r i f i e d ham.

I t ' s t r u e , t h e y a r e s ay ing h e ' s t o o fond of p l ay ing

i n f r o n t of t h e grands tand and b e a t i n g t h e drum.

But one who is doing t h e work h e ' s pursu ing would

h u r t and annoy u s i f he should be dumb.

When news t o us t r i c k l e s t h a t c o d f i s h o r p i c k l e s were

s e i z e d b y Doc Wiley because they w e r e punk

We l i s t t o h i s h o r r o r and b e t h a l f a d o l l a r h e ' l l

c l e a n u p t h e f a k e r s who d e a l t him such junk.

So h e r e ' s t o Doc Wiley, They t r e a t e d u s v i l e l y by

f e e d i n g us po ison and gumble and goo.

They'd no r u t h o r p i t y , till Doc, wise and g r i t t y ,

jumped on t o t h e i r pe r sons and made them come through ."

D r . Y . : Very good and v e r y we l l r e a d , too . May I t a k e t h i s copy

t o h e l p t h e t y p i s t ?

M r . M . : Yes, I guess it would be b e t t e r .

Dr, Y . : Now, w i t h r e s p e c t t o t h e p i c t u r e s , M r . McManus, i f t h e

Food and Drug Admin i s t r a t i on , a s M r . McMillin s u g g e s t s

t h e y a r e , i s w i l l i n g t o g e t them reproduced, I would l i k e

t o have a set of them s t o r e d wi th t h e t r a n s c r i p t o f our

conve r sa t ion today. And so , could w e perhaps go through

t h e p i c t u r e s and i d e n t i f y them some way a s i f t hey

were e x h i b i t s go ing t o c o u r t and have you d i s c u s s t h e

p i c t u r e s s o t h a t w e ' l l have bo th your comments about them

and then e v e n t u a l l y haye t h e p i c t u r e s themselves a s

e x h i b i t s t o accompany t h e t r a n s c r i p t o f t h e i n t e r v i e w .

M r . M . ; Do you want t o mark them "A"?

D r . Y . : A l l r i g h t , s h a l l w e mark an "A" on t h e c o r n e r of t h a t one?

M r , M . : I gues s t h a t ' s "A".

D r . Y , : A l l r i g h t , E x h i b i t A.

Mr . . M. : This i s a p i c t u r e of t h e second I n s p e c t o r ' s Conference

he ld i n Buf fa lo i n 1 9 0 9 . Included i n h e r e a r e M r .

W,R.M, Wharton who, f o r a number of y e a r s , w a s c h i e f of

t h e E a s t e r n D i s t r i c t , w i t h h e a d q u a r t e r s a t New York,

Another v i s i t o r i s M r . Ar thur S t e n g l e , who was M r .

Campbell 's a s s i s t a n t i n s p e c t o r , and he was i n charge of

t h i s p a r t i c u l a r conference . Included i n he re i s M r .

Frank B, Rainer . M r . Rainer was a l i f e g u a r d wi th t h e

Coast Guard i n Long I s l a n d Sound and swam o u t t o a

schooner i n d i s t r e s s and rescued s e v e r a l people f o r

which he g o t t h e Congress iona l Medal of Honor, and

P r e s i d e n t Theodore Roosevel t o f f e r e d him any p o s i t i o n

i n t h e government he chose, and he chose o u r s e r v i c e ar?d

s tayed w i t h u s f o r s e v e r a l y e a r s . George H. Adams was

an i n s p e c t o r i n Boston who l a t e r , s e r v i n g a l i t t l e wh i l e

i n New York, became D i r e c t o r o f t h e Boston D i s t r i c t .

The re ' s a D r . O.R. Sud le r , whom I mentioned e a r l i e r ,

a M r . A.X. Judge, who was e d i t o r of t h e Canner, a t r a d e

p u b l i c a t i o n , a f t e r he l e f t us a f t e r a yea r . M r . J . C .

Duff , who was t h e f i r s t i n s p e c t o r i n t h e New York D i s t r i c t ,

who i s mentioned by D r . Dunbar i n h i s t h i n g t h e r e . A

M r . Wagner who was f i r s t Chief of t h e Savannah s t a t i o n .

He had been i n s p e c t o r i n New York be fo re t h a t . And

D r . Meserve, who w a s a t e a c h e r who joined t h e . . . had

a p o s i t i o n i n t h e Nat iona l Guard i n C a l i f o r n i a l a t e r .

D r . Y . : On t h e back of t h e p i c t u r e , do you have i d e n t i f i c a t i o n ,

o r i s it on t h e f r o n t of who t h e s e people a r e ?

M r . M . : I t t s on t h e back.

a D r . Y . : So we can g e t it photographed o r Xeroxed a l s o .

M r . M.; Yes. Xeroxed o r keep it, .rF e s s , , X c a n % show Qtt o

any body excep t t h e new fel lows. who don% know anyth ing

about i't. You remember Herman Llnd, He was i n N e w York

p robab ly when yon w e r e t h e r e , wasnt<t he?

M r . S.; NO.

M r . M . : W e l l , George Adams, of c o u r s e , was one of t h e p i o n e e r s .

D r . Y , : You mentioned one t h i n g t h a t caused me t o t h i n k of a

q u e s t i o n , M r . McManus. You mentioned t h a t t h e r e was

one of t h e i n s p e c t o r s who l e f t t h e s e r v i c e i n o r d e r t o

go i n t o i n d u s t r y , i n h i s c a s e , I t h i n k , t o become an

e d i t o r .

M r . M . ; No. I t h i n k he was a t e c h n i c a l man. He was w i t h a

b i g v i n e g a r company i n Cleveland, No. No. Judge was

t h e e d i t o r of t h e Canner. T h a t ' s A r t h u r , Not Louis

Judge who was b e t t e r known. This i s Ar thur Judge, I

remember because he took u s around t h e Bal t imore c a n n e r i e s

and showed them what t h e y were do ing w i t h t h e waste t h a t

u l t i m a t e l y made c a t s u p and . . . D r . Y . : H e wasn ' t e v e r an i n s p e c t o r .

Mr, M e : Yes. He was an i n s p e c t o r . He was one of t h a t f i r s t

1907 group.

D r . Y . : And t h e n he s h i f t e d ove r t o become e d i t o r ?

M r . M . : Y e s . H e e i t h e r was t h a t be fo re , I d o n ' t know.

D r . Y . : A t a c e r t a i n p e r i o d i n t h e h i s t o r y o f Food and Drug, a s

I remember, maybe, j u s t a f t e r t h e F i r s t World War, t h e r e

w e r e a good many of t h e employees, I d o n ' t know s o much

about i n s p e c t o r s a s about t e c h n f c a l peop le , i n t h e

Washington h e a d q u a r t e r s o f t h e Bureau o f Chemistry

who l e f t t h e Emreau t o e n t e r employment i n p r i v a t e

i n d u s t r y , main ly , I would judge, because t h e s a l a r y s c a l e

was p r e t t y low i n t h e Bureau, and i n d u s t r y was w i l l i n g

t o pay them a good d e a l h ighe r wages. Now, how much of

t h a t was t h e r e ? Was t h a t e v e r a problem wi th i n s p e c t o r s

t r y i n g t o keep . . . M r . M . : I t h i n k it was t h e . . . Many of t h e men d i d go back,

n o t so much t h e i n s p e c t o r s a s t h e chemis t s , N a t u r a l l y ,

t k e y were p r o f e s s i o n a l men and had a s t and ing i n t h a t

r e s p e c t . M r . Duff was t h e New York i n s p e c t o r . H e went

w i t h a baking powder company i n J e r s e y , M r . J e n k i n s

went w i t h some pharmaceut ica l house. Meserve, t h e man

w i t h t h e Van Dyke, he took charqe o f t h e Food and Drug work

i n N e w Mexico or Arizona. And then he jo ined t h e Army

i n t h e P r e s i d i o a s some k ind of an i n s t r u c t o r . M r .

Ford i s well-known a s t h e C i n c i n n a t i i n s p e c t o r . The two

Earnshaws--Jackson Earnshaw--he went w i t h t h e Fred Harvey

r e s t a u r a n t s t h a t used t o run on t h e Santa Fe y e a r s ago ,

and D r . Holton was v e r y a c t i v e i n o u r drug d i v i s i o n ,

and Wagner was c h i e f i n N e w York. H e i s no ted f o r a

man who prosecu ted o r t r i e d t o p r o s e c u t e t h a t ho r se meat

c a s e which i s mentioned i n some of t h o s e . . . Dunbar

mentioned it, I b e l i e v e .

D r . Y , : What d i d it involve?

M r . 'M.: I t ' s q u i t e a s t o r y , I ' d r a t h e r t e l l it. W e l l , y e s , it

invo lved , i n t h e days of horse-drawn v e h i c l e s , t h e r e w e r e

q u i t e 8 number of f a t a l i t i ' e s fram c r m p s and hroken legs ,

e t c , Such h 9 r s e s were u s u a l l y taken c a r e of by render ing

p l a n t s where t h e f a t was . , , t h e y were cooked and t h e

f a t was s e p a r a t e d from t h e h i d e s and sa lvaged p r o t e i n

f o r f e r t i l i z e r . Europe, of cou r se , had some demand f o r

horse mea t unde r c o n t r o l l e d c o n d i t i o n s , and w e found

t h a t t h e s e people were t a k i n g t h e hind q u a r t e r s of ho r se s

which t h e y picked up on t h e s t r e e t maybe from a c c i d e n t s

o r maybe from p h y s i c a l d i s a b i l i t y and making . . , t r e a t i n g

them i n a corned beef p roces s and p u t t i n g them i n c a s k s

f o r t h e purpose of sh ipp ing t o Denmark, I b e l i e v e .

And t h e i d e a was, how could we show t h a t t h e animal

under t h e law had d i e d o the rwi se t han by s l a u g h t e r ? RAYNO+

So, one of t h e men . . . T h i s M r . Baiacr whom I mentioned

p r e v i o u s l y . . . H e g o t a job w i t h t h e s e people as a

kind of a hobo who wanted some work. So they l e t him

r a k e t h e dump f o r them--keep it l e v e l l e d o f f . H e would

t e l l u s when t h e wagon went o u t t o g e t a dead ho r se .

Another man who is n o t shown h e r e , M r . Walsh, was w a i t i n g

t h e r e ; and D r . Ca l lahan , who i s n ' t shown h e r e , he was

a p h y s i c i a n , D r . Ca l lahan g o t a job d r i v i n g one of t h e s e ,

what t h e y c a l l e d a "dead ho r se wagon", I t was a low-

s lung t r u c k w i t h a winch a t t h e f r o n t of it t o p u l l

t h e . . . drag t h e horse i n t o t h i s covered t r u c k . . . low-slung body . , , drawn by two h o r s e s . So Czl lahan

would l e t Walsh g e t i n t o the car s u r r e p t i t F o u s l y . . . n o t t h e c a r . . . t h e t r u c k , . . and, wh i l e i n t h e r e ,

Nalsh would i n j e c t t h e kind q u a r t e r s w i th sotne harmless

i o d i d e s o l u t i o n and w i t h the i d e a t h a t , b+en it was

o f f e r e d f o r e x p o r t , t o come w i t h i n t h e terms of t h e law,

t h a t i f t h e y could i d e n t i f y t h e i o d i n e , they would know

it had come from h o r s e s from a p a r t i c u l a r c o n d i t i o n ,

u s u a l l y dead from causes o t h e r t h a n n a t u r a l . , . c a u s e s

o t h e r t h a n s l a u g h t e r . So, un fo rkuna te ly , a f t e r t hey g o t

a l l ready and had spen t s e v e r a l months on t h e t h i n g , t h e

. . . some l o c a l i n s p e c t o r rushed t o t h e newspapers

and t o l d what t h e y were going t o do t o t h i s f e l l o w and

s o f o r t h , So he d i d n o t make h i s shipment, and w e had

no j u r i s d i c t i o n . . W e had wasted a number of man hours

though. I was s e n t over t h e r e t o watch from a sa loon o r

something one t ime , b u t D r . Ca l l ahan , who I say was

a ~ h y s i c i a n and y e t was r a t h e r . . . good sense o f humor

. . . when Walsh would g e t i n t o t h i s covered wapon which

w a s about a s b i g a s t h i s t a b l e . . . tw ice a s b i g . . . He would t a k e p l e a s u r e i n d r i v i n g t h e horsc wagon over

cobb le s tones which would g i v e Walsh t e r r i f i c bumps and

laughed when he l e t Walsh o u t a f t e r w a r d s . But t h a t was,

a s I s a y , one of t h o s e t h i n g s t h a t co l l apsed on us .

D r . Y . : Wel l , t h a t ' s E x h i b i t A . We;ve g o t t i m e , I t h i n k , be fo re

t h e t a p e comes t o an end, f o r E x h i b l t B .

M r . M . : B shows t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n o f t h e produc t ion of O i l of

Wintergreen i n Pennsylvania i n 1914, The i n s p e c t o r ob-

se rved t h e s t i l l and s e a l e d it and watched i t and c o l l e c t e d

t h e d i s t i l l e d o i l f o r an a v t h z n t i c sample.

D r . Y. : And t h i s is- a p i c t u r e o f peop le s t a n d i n g i n f r o n t o f

t h e s t i l l . Ts one of t h e m t h e i n s p e c t o r ?

M r . M . : Y e s , t h a t b s me.

D r . Y . : Is t h a t you w i t h t h e o v e r a l l s on?

M r . M . ; Yeah,, I guess so .

D r . Y . : And t h e h a t w i t h tb brim t i p p e d up?

M r . M . : ?.!es, t h a t was t h e o t h e r man, I d o n ' t remernher h i s name.

D r . Y . : But he was an i n s p e c t o r who went a long wi th you?

M r . M . : N o . N o . I was by myself t h e n . There was a chemist

who came t h e r e l a t e r . No, I had t o do t h a t by myse l f .

I"11 t e l l you a funny s t o r y about it.

D r . Y . : A l l r i g h t . You t e l l u s it.

M r . M . : There was no h o t e l a t t h e p l a c e , s o I was t h e g u e s t of

t h e man who was producing t h e o i l who had s e ~ e r a lhundred

a c r e s . And he was Pennsylvznia Dutch s t o c k . They spgke

Pennsylvania Dutch most o f t h e t ime. So I d i d n ' t g e t

a l l o f t h e conve r sa t ion . But I - w a s g iven a b i g room

which had one o f t h o s e l a r g e t en - foo t wide beds , and it

was a l l r i g h t t h e f i r s t n i g h t . The second n i g h t was

Sa turday n i g h t , and some men came from Scranton t o hunt .

They were hun t ing t h e woodchuck. They were g e t t i n g ready

f o r t h e hunt w i t h t h e u s u a l l i b a t i o n s , and they a l l came

i n t o t h i s room. The i d e a was t h a t I would s h a r e my bed

w i t h a s many a s could c rawl i n , and t h e o t h e r s would

d s t h e b e s t t h e y cou ld , But, t hey were a bunch of good

s p o r t s when t h e y saw I was a s t r a n g e r and n o t going hunt ing

w i t h them. They l e t me have t h e whole bed, and they

s l e p t on t h e f l o o r , ,and i.n t h e morning I went o u t . ,;.L , I .- ,T;' -

.-el : The farmer,, as X sap , had hnndreds of a c r e s of l a n d .

D r . Y . : W e l l , we a r e ga the red aga in t h i s a f t e r n o o n , May lQ,

1 9 6 8 ; M r . McManus, Mr. Schiffman, M r . J ans sen , and

myse l f , Harvey. Young, con t inu ing our conve r sa t ion about

t h e o l d days from t h e i n s p e c t o r s ' p e r s p e c t i v e and from

t h e chemis t s ' p e r s p e c t i v e i n t h e Food and Drug Administra-

t i o n . One t h i n g t h a t occur red t o me, be fo re we g e t back

t o t h e p i c t u r e s , M r . ?IcManus, I asked you t h i s morning

t o g i v e your p e r s o n a l impress ions and g i v e a l i t t l e de-

s c r i p t i o n o f D r . Wiley and K r . Campbell. I wish you'd

do t h e same f o r me, i f you would, i n s o f a r a s you knew

M r . Crawford and M r . Dunbar , . . D r . Dunbar.

M r . M . : W e l l , I r e c a l l i n 1 9 4 4 , D r . Dunbar took over . W e had

known him v e r y p l e a s a n t l y a s z chemis t and a l s o a s t h e

a s s i s t a n t t o M r . Caz1pb3ll 2s Commissioner. D r . Dunbar

was a v e r y human s o r t of a man, He took t h e c l o s e ,

p e r s o n a l i n t e r e s t i n t h e people he worked wi th and t h e

people he m e t , b u t he had a l o t of courage i n >As p o s i t i o n .

I remember t a k i n g him down t o t h e orange j u i c e c a n n e r i e s

i n F lorada when they had s t a r t e 2 adding a l i t t l e sugar

t o t h e g r a p e f r u i t and orange j u i c e when it was t o o sou r .

Then t h e y s t a r t e d p u t t i n g it i n a syrup form because o f

syrup ing machines , and then t h e y thought t h e syrup could

be made t h i n n e r and save orange j u i c e , So, when he found

o u t what t h e y were doing , t hen he i s s u e d an o rde r s topping

it r i g h t away. He impressed them s u f f i c i e n t l y t h a t it

was stopped . , , t h a t , i f t h e y were going t o add sy rup ,

it had t o be i n a v e r y c o n c e n t r a t e d form o r mixed ir. t h e

orange j u i c e i t s e l f , And he was always sympathet ic t o

t h e problems i n t h e f i e l d which migh t n o t have been

expected of a man whose f i r s t work had been i n a l abora-

t o r y , Eut he g o t around i n t h e f i e l d s e v e r a l t h e s w i t h

u s , and T t h i n k he was wise enough t o s e e t h e i r problems

a s w e l l a s h i s own.

D r . Y. : What d i d he look .l i k e ?

Mr. . Well, he d i d n ' t . . . w e l l , he looksd l i k e a p l e a s a n t

s o r t of a man. H e wasnt't v e r y t a l l . I guess about

5 ' 5 " o r something. But he was soft-spoken and made a

good impress ion on t h e people he v i s i t e d .

D r . Y . : H i s temperament, you say , was kind of q u i e t and k ind ly?

M r . M . : Yes, b u t he had courage when he had t o use i t , azd he

made h i s d e c i s i o n s wi thout h e s i t a t i o n . I t h i n k he was

ve ry wel l - l iked . I f you can use t h e word, you can say

he w a s a k ind of beloved, s u p e r i o r supervisor. M r . Crawford

we had a l s o m e t under s i m i l a r c o n d i t i o n s though he was

more i s o l a t e d on account of t h e tremendous amount of t i m e

he devoted from '33 t o '38 on t h e development of t h e new

a c t . So, excep t ing a few v i s i t s i n t h e f i e l d when he

was i n t e r e s t e d i n shrimp and o y s t e r s and t h i n g s l i k e + h a t ,

we d i d n ' t have t h e pe r sona l c o n t a c t we d i d w i t h D r .

Dunbar.

D r . Yi: What s o r t of manner d i d M r , Crawford have?

?Ir. M . : He w a s v e r y sof t -spoken and he was a man you could t a l k

f r e e l y t o , I t h i n k t h a t was one happy c o n d i t i o n i n t h e

whole Food and Drug Adminis t ra t ion . S t a r t i n g w i t h M r ,

Campbell, whom I knew, t h e r e was a f r i e n d l y f e e l i n g a l l

t h e way through. Some of t h e . , . D r . W i l e y c s f i r s t

a s s i s t a n t s were d i f f i c u l t t o r each . I t h i n k they meant

w e l l . r remember o n l y speaking t o D r . Bigelow once o r

*:ice, and D r . Keebler who was i n t h e Drug Div i s ion

was a l s o hard , b u t t hey w e r e n ' t q u i t e a s i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e

f i e l d work a s t h e s e o t h e r men.

D r . Y . : And t h a t a p p r o a c h a b i l i t y , you a l s o would apply t o M r .

L a r r i c k ?

M r . M . : Yes. Oh, yes . H e g o t o u t more. H e had come up frcm t h e

f i e l d and knew t h e problems. I t h i n k t h a t i s a g r e a t

d e a l t o do because freedom of communication g i v e s t h e

s u p e r v i s o r a chance t o know c o n d i t i o n s . Sometimes t h e y

c a n ' t p l e a s e them, b u t i t ' s b e t t e r t h a t way than t o have

an i s o l a t i o n . I r e c a l l i n Chicago my f i r s t year t h e r e ,

I was s e n t t o sample some f l o u r , and it was a q u e s t i o n

o f whether it was bleached and, i f s o , it should be

l a b e l e d t h a t way. And, a t t h a t t ime , Chicago had a chemist

i n cha rge of t h e l a b o r a t o r y , and t h e r e were two i n s p e c t o r s

i n Chicago, myself and a M r . Young, who was t h e s e n i o r .

So, I g o t some samples of f l o u r , and t h e chemist came t o

me and s a i d , "You l a b e l e d one of your ' b l e a c h e d ' , b u t it

d o e s n ' t show any b l each i n t e s t s .@I The t e s t was a s p o t

test wLth a c o l o r r e a g e n t , And I s a i d , "Oh, t h a t m i l l

i s n ' t u s i n g t h e n i t r o g e n pe-oxide. He ' s u s i n g n i t r o s y l -

f l u o r i d e . And that probab ly messed up the Gries r e a g e n t ,

G R I E S.'' The nex t day , t h e chemis t o r r a t h e r t h e

c h i e f i n s p e c t o r o f Chicago came o u t and s a y s , " D r ,

So and So d o e s n ' t want yon i n t h e l a b o r e t o r y any more

t a l k i n g t o h i s chemis t s . " ?n2 I s a i d , "Why?" and they

t o l d m e t h e s t o r y . He wants his chemist t o do h i s work

o b j e c t i v e l y wl thout any in format ion from t h e f i e l d .

And so t h a t i l l u s t r a t e s t h e c o n d i t i o n t h a t d i d apply

and y e t had developed l a t e r . I t was 1 9 1 4 , I t h l n k , when

t h e y changed t h e l a b o r a t o r y t o a s t a t i o n and had a

chemis t i n cha rge and t h e n . , , b u t s t i l l t h e i n s p e c t o r s

were s e p a r a t e o u t of Washington, And then about 1 9 1 8 ,

I t h i n k , sr '17 , t hey took over . . . t h e c h i e f o f t h e

s t a t i o n took over t h e whole t h i n g . H e cou ld be a chemis t

o r i n s p e c t o r .

I r e c a l l ano the r t ime l i k e t h a t , I w a s c o l l e c t i n g

sam~lesof c a t t l e f e e d s , and they had a long a n a l y s i s on

it and you were supposed t o copy t h a t and p u t a t a g ,

g e t samples of t h e bag and t h e t a g s and p u t t h e feeci i n

a j a r a f t e r mixing, And I thought it would be a good

i d e a t o save w r i t i n g t o p u t t a g s i n t h e g a r , s e e ? W e l l ,

I g o t a l e t t e r from Washington say ing , "You put. t a g s

i n t h e j a r s . D o n o t do t h i s any more. W e do n o t want

o u r chemis t s t o be i n f luenced by t h e in format ion on t h e

t a g s . " So t h a t was t h e d i f f i c u l t y of t h e e a r l y y e a r s

of g e t t i n g c o c t a c t and a p p r e c i a t i n g t h e need of it.

Because a chemis t cou ld go o u t and do an i n s p e c t i o n

job as good a s an in format ioni n s p e c t o r many times 2nd ~ e t

of va lue . Find t h e n there was a l s ~t h e ques t ion of somebody

d i r e c t i n g t h e t h i n g so t h e r e wo711dn1't be a waste of e f f o r t

on u s e l e s s samples and t h i n g s l i k e t h a t .

D r . Y.: So your c o n t a c t w i t h Bigelow and Keebler wqs f a i z l y

remote.

M r . M . : Y e s and w e l l , t h a t h s a l l I can say about t h a t . The o t h e r

men, of cou r se , t h e y d i d g e t around more, e s p e c i a l l y i n

' 1 9 o r was i t . . . M r . Campbell took over a s c h i e f of

t h e d i s t r i c t . I t h i n k t h a t ' s t h e n u ~ b e r I w a s t h i n k i n g

o f . I ' v e f o r g o t t e n my d a t e s .

M r . J . : Bigelow l a t e r became D i r e c t o r of t h e Nat iona l Canner ies

Laboratory.

M r . M . : H e was a v e r y a b l e man.

Mr. J.: What happened t o D r . Keebler?

M r . M.: I do r.ot know. I d o n ' t know whether he was PhD o r a

medica l man, b u t he was p u t i n d rugs , s o I assume t h a t

he was a medica l man, b u t : . ,

D r . Y . : He e v e n t u a l l y became head of t h e l i a i s o n between t h e

Bureau and t h e P o s t O f f i c e Department. And he may have

s t a y e d t h e r e u n t i l h i s r e t i r e m e n t , I ' m j u s t n o t s u r e .

M r . J.: Wasn' t he i n t h e Bureau b e f o r e D r . Wiley g o t t h e r e ?

M r . M.; I t h i n k he was. What he was do ing , I . . ,

M r . J.: H e was do ing a d u l t e r a t i o n s t u d i e s I b e l i e v e , and when

Wiley a r r i v e d , he found t h i s work going on and expanded

it,

M r . M,: You s e e , b e f o r e t h e Food and Drugs A c t , t h e c o l l e g e s of

pharmacy 1ai.d g r e a t s t r e s s on t h e t e s t s i n the Pham;l~

copoeia., and p u , n n a c i s t s were spending a l o t of t h e i r .. .

t ime l e a r n i n g t h e s c tests, And, of cou r se , they never

g o t around t g do ing them ha rd ly . They n i g h t make 8 c o l o r

test o r sometliing, Kut it was soon found o u t t h a t we

had t o develop o r supplement them w i t h proven tests f o r

c o u r t work, D r . Keebler , I don8 ' t r e c a l l a s g e t t i n g t o o

deep i n t h a t t h i n g , b u t , t h e n , of cou r se , he had t h e

Johnson d e c i s i o n a g a i n s t him. That was p r i o r t o t h e

She r l ey Amendment, and L t was d i f f i c u l t t o make much

p r o g r e s s i n d rugs . I remember t h e r e were a n u m b ~ r o f

s e i z u r e s on a s h and c rude t h i n g s . I t d i d n ' t m a t t e r much.

D r . Y . ; J u s t a word f o r t h e r e c s r d . . . D r . Wiley came t o t h e

Bureau i n t h e 188O1.s, and he s e t t h e drug l a b o r a t o r y up

i n 1903, and he brought Keebler down from P h i l a d e l p h i a

i n 1903 t o become head of t h e drug l a b o r a t o r y which was

f i r s t set up i n t h a t yea r .

M r . M . : We had some l a b o r a t o r i e s o f our own. D r . B r in ton , Clement

S , Br in ton , of P h i l a d e l p h i a was i n b e f o r e 1 9 0 6 and a l s o

D o o l i t t l e , Arnic D o o l i t t l e , was i n New York. They were

mos t ly f o r impor t s .

D r . Y . : R igh t . I t h i n k t h c t t h e Bureau took over import r e spons i -

b i l i t i e s under a law t h a t was passed even be fo re t h e

1906 a c t ,

M r . M . Oh., yes . There was some a c t t h e r e because t h a t ' s what

t h e y w e r e do ing and . , . D r . Y , : They had maybe three i n s p e c t i o n s t a t i o n s a t p o r t s b e f o r e

1906, You mentioned t h e c rude d r u g s , D c you remember

whether your expe r i ence con ta ined v e r y much t h a t d e a l t

w i t h o t h e r k i n d s o f p r e s c r i p t i o n d r u g s , t a b l e t s , t h i n g s

of t h a t s o r t ?

M r . M,: No, That work w a s n ' t s t a r t e d u n t i l t h e so -ca l l ed S u l l i v a n

Case i n which t h e c o u r t s he ld t h a t a drugr l a b e l t o be

used o n l y on p r e s c r i p t i o n was i n v i o l a t i o n i f t h e r e c e i v e r ,

a s w e l l a s t h e s h i p p e r , took it. That was c a l l e d t h e

S u l l i v a n Case. It was i n t h e sou thern d l s t r i c t of . . . middle d i s t r i c t of Georgia ,

D r . Y . : And t h a t was a f t e r t h e 1938 law had passed . . . 194O1s?

M r . M . : Yes, Before t h a t , we c o u l d n ' t do much. Our work was

=ampling t a b l e t s , b u t it was on ly a q u e s t i o n o f q u a n t i t y

i n t h e a n a l y s i s . I d o n ' t r e c a l l s p e c i f i c a l l y .

D r . Y.: Were you involved i n t h e S u l l i v a n Case?

M r . M . : No, excep t ing a s D i r e c t o r , S t a t i o n C h i e f , D i s t r i c t

Chief o r something. I had something t o do w i t h t h e ,

y e s , it was under my t ime t h a t I was i n t h e o f f i c e . I

don ' t r e c a l l t h e d e t a i l s e x c e p t t h e . , . g e t t i n g t h e

ev idence ready f o r them. But I . , . Maybe M r . Schiffman

analyzed i t , f o r a l l I know. I ' v e f o r g o t t e n what t h e

drug was.

D r . Y . : S u l f a t h i a z o l e , I t h i n k it was.

M r . M . : O h , was t h a t i t ?

D r . Y.: U h huh,

M r . S . ; Well , w e probzbly d i d , I d o n ' t r e c a l l t h e d e t a i l s of

t h e c a s e , b u t I remember when we were rounding up w i t n e s s e s

and t h i n g s we had q u i t e a d i f f i . c u l t t i m e , b u t you d i d

go i a t o more d rugs and t o i d e n t i f i c a t i o n of d rugs l a t e r

on a s t o p a r t i - c u l a r l y i n this dangerous d r u g s b u s i n e s s .

D r . Y . : Do you remember the Warm S p r i n s s Case?

M r : M.: Yes,

D r . Y . : What can you t e l l me ahout t h a t ?

M r . M . : Me o r him?

D r . Y , : W e l l , e i t h e r one o f you.

M r . S . : I t h i n k you'd b e t t e r . You'd do a b e t t e r job.

Mr, M . : When P r e s i d e n t F r a n k l i n Roosevel t went t o Warm S p r i y s ,

a g r e a t d e a l of p u b l i c i t y was g i ~ r e n t o i t , and the v a l u e

of t h e b a t h s was emphasized and t h e tempera ture of t h e

wate r was expected t o be t h e reason: i n t h a t it al lcwed

freedom and comfort i n movenent t o r e s t o r e t h e para lyzed

musc les , i n some c a s e s . h d t h e r e were t h r e e men, one

a pharmacis t and t h e o t h e r two had been i n some k ind of

b u s i n e s s , g o t t h e i d e a t h a t it would be p r o f i t a b l e t o

c a p i t a l i z e on t h o s e e v e n t s of t h e P r e s i d e n t and t h e

S p r i n g s , and t h e y h i r e d a l i t t l e s t o r e i n Warm S p r i n g s ,

Georgia , t h e town of Warm S p r i n g s , and bought themselves

some q u a n t i t i e s of c h i e f l y sodium s u l f a t e , which i s a

l a x a t i v e d rug , and p u t it up i n a L o t t l e w i t h a c i r c u l a r

which i n d i c a t e d t h a t it was u s e f u l i n t h e t r e a t m e n t of

many c o n d i t i o n s l i k e rheumatism, a r t h i t i s , e t c . There

was some i m p l i c a t i o n of p o l i o , and w e r e p o r t e d it. I

remember i n t e r v i e w i n g a v e r y prominent man whose son

w a s a v i c t i m of p o l i o i n A t l a n t a h e r e . They had been

dece ived by it, and s o it was dec ided t o b r i n g a prose^

c u t i o n , Because of what t h e D i s t r i c t At to rney thought

was t h e c a l l o u s n a t u r e of t h e f r a c d , t h e impos i t ion on

people who had a hope of r e s t o r a t i o n , t hey declded t h a t

t h e y would b r i n g it under t h e consp i racy s e c t i o n of t h e

Act and s h w that . these t h r e e men g o t t o g e t h e r and dev i sed

t h i s scheme of s e l l i n g s t o c k and a l s o s e l l i n g t h e produc t .

There w a s n ' t n m c h of t h e produc t s o l d because t h e prose-

c u t i o n was r a t h e r prompt, and it was a c o n v i c t i o n ,

D r . Y.: Where was t h e c a s e t r i e d ?

M r . S , : I n Macon, Georgia.

D r . Y.: Did you e v e r have any pe r sona l c o n t a c t w i th t h e men who

p e r p e t r a t e d t h e mess?

M r . S.: No. r j u s t saw them i n t h e courtroom. I w a s n ' t an i n -

d i v i d u a l c o l l e c t i n g samples, b u t I d i d see them, and I

a s s i s t e d t h e Uni ted S t a t e s At torney i n c o l l e c t i n g evidence.

D r . Y . : A s I unde r s t and it, t h a t same Dis t r ic t At torney l a t e r

on became a judge and was t h e judge a t t h e t ime of t he

S u l l i v a n Case.

M r . S.: Yes. That was T. Hoyt Davis of Vienna, I b e l i e v e . H e

p u t i n a l o t of t i m e because it was well-defended by,

speaking of t h e Warm Spr ings c a s e , I t h i n k M r . Hal

Lindsey, a former U.S. At torney was t h e de fense .

D r . Y.: What expe r i ence d i d you have w i t h t h e D i s t r i c t At torneys

w i t h whom you had t o work? On t h e whole, d i d you f e e l

t h a t t h e D i s t r i c t At torneys d i d r i g h t by t h e Agency and

by t h e law?

M r . S , : Our expe r i ence was probably t h e same a s o t h e r gcyernment

a g e n c i e s , A t t h e t i m e w e s t a r t e d , t h e c a s e s i n F e d e r a l

Cour t s had been c o u n t e r f e i t p o s t a l t h i n g s and, when we

came i n , t hey u s u a l l y gave a g r e a t d e a l of a t t e n t i o n t o

o u r c a s e s . T w a s m r p r i s e d sometimes a t what was g iven .

Eut a f t e r t h e 2 0 t h . , : 1 8 t h Amendment, when f e d e r a l

c a s e s became s o common: we were j u s t ano the r nu isance ,

and sometimes we g o t v e r y l i t t l e a t t e n t i o n . So w e made

it a p r a c t i c e of going around t o t h e United S t a t e s At torneys

and checking up on t h e c a s e s , and t r y i n g t o g i v e them f i r s t -

hand in format ion as t o what t h e l e g a l d e s c r i p t i o n meant

and t h e economics of it.

D r . Y . : You had t o push them sometimes, then?

M r . S. : Yes. 7 r e c a l l one ca se . I t wasn ' t i n my t e r r i t o r y ,

i n which t h e Uni ted S t a t e s At torney t o l d t h e Food and

Drug A d % i n i s t r a t i o n t h a t , t o prove i n t e r s t a t e shipment,

we must p rov ide him w i t h w i t n e s s e s who handled t h e t h i n g

from t h e t i n e it l e f t t h e m a n u f a c t u r e r ' s premise t o t h e

time it was d e l i v e r e d t o t h e d e a l e r from whom t h e i n s p e c t o r

g o t it. He s a i d t h a t meant a l l t h e t r a n s p o r t a t i o n

employees, t h e t r u c k men, an5 evc ry th inq e l s e . W e l l ,

i n most c a s e s , t h a t was an i n p o s s i b l a t h i n g t h a t would

o n l y occur i n & e c a s e of a r e g i s t e r e d package o r something

l i k e t h a t . So, one day, M r . Campbell came down and I

t o l d them t h e d i f f i c u l t y r was having w i t h i l l i t e r a t e

t r u c k men who d i d n ' t know what t h e y were handl ing ; ~ n d

never could f i n d o u t . Ee j u s t s a i d , "Forget i t . " SO,

t h e n e x t t h i n g was we g o t o u r u s u a l f r e i g h t b i l l s and

a s t a t emen t from t h e d e a l e r t h a t it was covered by

f r e i g h t b i l l s and i n v o i c e from so and s o , Usua l ly t h a t

was accep ted a s evidence of i n t e r s t a t e shipment. L a t e r ,

t h e c o u r t s ; An some c a s e s , i n which 1 t . m n o t p e r s o n a l l y

connected, he ld t h a t it was a r ea sonab le assumption,

2n many c a s e s t h a t t h e produc t came from Colorado and

ended up i n New York, e t c . I remember one t ime when a

d e a l e r r e f u s e d t o t e l l u s where . . . g i v e u s any r e c o r d s

on h i s salmon, canned salmon, which was suspec ted t o

c o n t a i n a decomposed produc t . Plr. Campbell t o l d u s t o

go ahead and make t h e c a s e and t r y and g e t a c o u r t r u l i n g

on t h e assumption t h a t t h e r e was no salmon canned i n t h i s

E a s t e r n s t a t e , and it must have cone from ano the r s t a t e .

W e d i d n ' t have t o do t h a t , f o r t u n a t e l y , b u t it was t h i n g s

l i k e t h a t w e w e r e f a c i n g , and t h a t was t h e way he would

m e e t t h e n headton. Another t h i n g f o r which he was c r i t i -

c i z e d openly by some of t h e l e g a l p r o f e s s i o n i n Washington

r e p r e s e n t i n g de fendan t s w a s t h a t t h e Food anc? Drug Admini-

s t r a t i o n took an undue advantage i n t h e enforcsmezt of t h e

law i n t h a t t hey o n l y picked o u t t h e most f l a g r a n t c a s e s

t o b r i n g t o t r i a l and; t h e r e f o r e , t h e y e a s i l y g o t d e c i s i o n s .

But , i f t h e y would p i c k o u t a q u e s t i o n a 5 l e c a s e , t h e n

t h e de fense would have a chance tc, g e t so;ne r u l i n g s on

it. And, o f cou r se , ano the r t h i n g w e d i d t r y t o do

i s , i f t h e r e was a bakery i n a border c i t y t h a t shipped

o n l y about one- tenth of one p e r c e n t bread a c r o s s t h e l i n e ,

w e d i d n ' t b o t h e r w i t h h i s s h o r t weight when we had

a n o t h e r baker t h a t was sh ipp ing thousands of pounds a

day i n t h e r e . T t w a s a was te of good manpower and govern-

ment funds . So, t h o s e t h i n g s were g r a d u a l l y brought o u t .

1 r e c a l l or?e t i m e I w a s g iven t h e assignment t o make c a s e s

a g a i n s t f r e s h v e g e t a b l e s from F l o r i d a which were shipped

i n hampers and were supposed t o hold th i r ty - two q u a r t s

o r one bushe l . And they were g e t t i n g a so -ca l l ed meat

b a s k e t t h a t on ly he ld t h i r t y . We s a i d t h a t they e i t h e r

ought t o l a b e l it t h a t way, so I g o t t h e o r d e r s t o make

c a s e s on them, and I po in ted o u t t h a t t h e F l o r i d a Depart-

ment of A g r i c u l t u r e s a i d t h e r e were 3 2 , 0 0 0 s h i p p e r s

of f r e s h v e g e t a b l e s i n F l o r i d a , and i t would be an i m -

p o s s i b l e t h i n g . So they s a i d , i f I c o u l d n ' t do i t , t h e y ' d

g e t somebody else, which was b l u n t enough. So I went

over t o Cha r l e s ton , which i s z vege tab l e sh ipp ing c e n t e r ,

and w e made a c a s e , a f l a g r a n t c a s e l i k e t h a t . I wrote

up c o n s i d e r a b l e b r i e f s t e l l i n g t h e United S t a t e s At torney

how t h a t man depressed t h e market on t h e hones t sh ippe r

from F l o r i d a by skimping on t h e weight , Even though

t h e consumer w a s n ' t d i r e c t l y a f f e c t e d , he was i n d i r e c t l y ,

because a p r i c e had t o be ob ta ined f o r t h a t same baske t .

Much t o my s u r p r i s e , t h e c a s e came up and t h e f e l l o w

pleaded no lo , I t h i n k , and he read my l e t t e r t o t h e judge

and gave him a heavy f i n e . So, d e s p i t e my r e l u c t a n c e t o

g e t a f t e r them, t h e y d i d accomplish something t h a t way.

D r . Y . : Did you e v e r have a c a s e t h a t you r e a l l y thought should

be t r i e d which the Distr ict At torney r e f u s e d t o t r y ?

Refused t o t a k e t o c o u r t ?

M r . S . : Y e s , I've had t h a t happen once o r twice . A f t e r a l l , I

b e l i e v e t h e b a s i c law is t h a t t h e D i s t r i c t At torney cannot

be compelled t o b r i n g c a s e s , I had one c a s e , I t h i n k it

was . , . oh , I remember, it was a pecan c a s e . S h e l l e d

pecans had been al lowed t o g e t worm-infested, s o t h i s

guy r o a s t e d them and s o l d them t o an i c e cream man, which

wasn ' t e x a c t l y p roper from t h e a e s t h e t i c s t a n d p o i n t .

I t was a d e l i b e r a t e t h i n g because he had t o h e a t them

t o g e t r l d of t h e l i v e bugs , and t h i s man was much i m -

p re s sed by t h e prominent c o u n s e l ' s argument t h a t it was

u n i n t e n t i o n a l and s h o u l d n ' t be s t i gma t i zed by t h e pro-

s e c u t i o n . There were one o r two c a s e s l i k e t h a t i n which

t h e r e was some r e l u c t a n c e , b u t i n g e n e r a l , we were favor -

a b l y compared w i t h t h e P o s t O f f i c e Department. I r e c a l l

s e v e r a l Uni ted S t a t e s At torneys s ay ing , "Your c a s e s a r e

a lmost as good a s t h e Pos t O f f i c e Department," and they

had t r a i n e d i n s p e c t o r s who d i d t a k e a l o t of p a i n s i n

p r e s e n t i n g evidence. So, i n g e n e r a l , I ' v e been ve ry

f o r t u n a t e w i t h t h e Uni ted S t a t e s At torneys .

D r . Y . : R igh t .

M r . S.: I t h i n k some of it i s ezuca t ing t h e a t t o r n e y s t c t h e type

of c a s e s t h e Food and Drug makes, Not everybody under-

s t a n d s them. I 've found p a r t i c u l a r l y t h a t we have been

complimented many t i m e s becsuse o f t h e f a c t t h a t w e had

g iven them a l l t h e background and what t h e r e a l s t o r y

was,

D r . Y. : Did you e v e r have difficulty f i n d i n g e x p e r t w i t n e s s e s

i n connec t ion w i t h any of t h e s e c a s e s , o r w e r e s c i e n t i f i c

pe r sonne l and med ica l pe r sonne l from t h e l a y community

u s u a l l y a v a i l a b l e t o you when you needed them?

M r . M . : With r e s p e c t t o m e d i c i ? l pe r sonne l , t h e Adminis t ra t ion

u s u a l l y s e n t some of t h e med ica l o f f i c e r s , and t h a t

approach was much e a s i e r because t h e d o c t o r s knew t h e

e t h l c s of t h e problem and t h e terms of what was d e s i r e d .

I d i d n o t have much expe r i ence i n t r y i n g t o g e t t h a t .

I r e c a l l t r y i n g t o g e t some evidence from t o x o c o l o g i s t s

i n New York on t h e a r s e n i c i n c e r t a i n foods l i k e baking

powders, bu t I wasn ' t s u c c e s s f u l . I had no problem w i t h

them, bu t t hey wanted t o t a l k w i t h D r . Wiley h imse l f , s e e ,

s o I d o n ' t blame them. Here was a young man and c o u l d n ' t

have known what t h e y wanted anyhow.

1 D r . Y.; By any chance, were you e v e r involved i n a c o u r t c a s e

i n which P r o f e s s o r Anton J. Car lson of t h e U n i v e r s i t y of

Chicago was an e x p e r t w i tnes s? A j a x Car l son .

Mr. M.: Y e s , I know him. I met him somewhere. I d o n ' t know

whether i t was t h e Chemists ' Soc i e ty o r a t a Case.

D r . Y . : Mr. Schiffman, you say you were involved i n a ca se?

M r . S . : Y e s . I n a c a s e i n Boston.

D r . Y . : What was t h e c a s e , do you remember?

M r . S.: A c a s e where t h e r e were f l u o r i d e s i n bce r .

Dr. Y.: F l u o r i d e s i n b e e r .

Yes. And he was t h e r e a s an e x p e r t w i t n e s s .

- 7 0 c

1

I I

1 I

Mr. M.: Well, then I must have met him at some meeting or somethinq,

I remember he was a very energetic sort of a man t-

outspoken.

Dr. Y.: You remmber . , . do you remember him as a witness on the stand?

M r . s . : No. r think we were excluded . , , myself, being a witness . . . I think I was excluded.

Dr. Y.: That's right. So you couldn't have heard h+.m on the stand.

Mr. S.: But I met him perssnally and heard him in the District

Attorney's office talking about the case.

Dr. Y . : Of all the scientists, he was one who st have been

in twenty or thirty or forty Food and Drug cases from

first to last. I want to write an article about him

sometime.

He was very helpful to Dr. Wiley, I remember, and also

I guess to the later people.

Mr. S.: I'm sure he makes an impressive witness, from what

conversation I had with him. He impressed me very much.

Dr. Y.: Yes. He was supposed to be the kind of fellow whose

testimony couldn't be shaken by cross-examination, He

was able to outwit the people who were cross-examining

him and turned their tough questions into advantage for

the Food and Drug Administration,

Mr. S.: Some of the trick questions, like in this beer case,

we had, when I was on the stand, the man wanted to know

how much a part per million of fluorine looks like in

beer, He said, "Here, would you measure it out for

me?'( So he handed m e a b i g o l d graduate. W l l r I d o n ' t

kncw whether r pt a p a r t p e r m i l l i o n o r n o t i n it,, h u t

I p u t i n a d rop o r two, and I s a i d , ".That1.s a p a r t of

a m i l l i o n , " Well, he cou ldn l . t say y e s o r no. He was

a f r a i d t h a t I j u s t r e f u s e d . , . wouldnbt make a s t a t emen t .

So, I may have had two p a r t s ; I may have had t e n p a r t s ,

bu t I had p u t i n what I s a i d .

M r . M . : Do you r e c a l l t h e c i rcumstances o f t h e r o t t e n f i s h i n

J a c k s o n v i l l e ?

M r . s.: I was t e l l i n g them about t h e t h r e e c a r l o a d s o f f i s h ?

M r . M . : Yes I r e c a l l one ca se i n which M r . Schiffman was a w i t n e s s ,

and he t e s t i f i e d t h a t t h e f i s h smelled bad, and t h e o t h e r

chemist brought o u t t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e was no d i f f e r e n c e

i n t h e b a c t e r i a l count of t h e good f i s h and t h i s suspec ted

f i s h . And t h e judge s a i d , "You mean, when t h i s f i s h

was thawed, it stunk?" and he g o t t h e p o i n t over t o t h e

j u r y , because M r . Schiffman s t u c k t o t h e p o i n t t h a t

t h i s smel led bad when it was thawed.

M r . S. : Th i s is t h e t y p e of t r i c k q u e s t i o n s you g e t on t h e s t a n d ,

t r y i n g t o demonstra te what a p a r t pe r m i l l i o n was.

D r . Y . : Sure . Right .

M r . S. : B u t it j u s t c a n , . t be demonstra ted a c t u a l l y .

D r . Y . : No, But t hey t r y t o do any th ing t o make you look s i l l y .

M r . S , : I f you d i d n t ' t f o l l o w through and go a long wi th them, then

i t ' s r e l u c t a n c e of t h e w i t n e s s , you see . So you do t h e

b e s t you can and , i n this, it went on s u c c e s s f u l l y , a l -

though I d i d deny myself a s an e x p e r t and r e fused t o

t e s t i f y t o the t o x i c i t y of f l u o r i n e , s o t h e n e x t day t h e

newsFaper h e a d l i n e s a i d , '"Chemist Doesnat Know Whether

F l u o r i n e i s Poison o r Not."

D r . Y , : Do you remember the name of t h e case?

M r . S . : L e t ' s s e e . Commonwealth Brewery,

D r . Y.: Cornonwealth Brewery. About what year?

M r . S . : They were u s i n g amoflium flaor5.de t o c l e a n t h e t a n k s

and a l s o a s a s a n i t i z i n g agen t t o keep it c l e a n , whatever

t hey c a l l e d it. Around ' 4 0 ,

D r , Y . ; About 1 9 4 0 ?

M r . S. : I s n ' t t h a t about r i g h t , M r . Mac?

M r . M . : I reckon it would be, y e s , T h a t ' s r i g h t . I d i d n ' t g e t

i n t o t h a t t h ing .

D r . Y.: How about t h e s e p i c t u r e s now? We've g o t E x h i b i t A and

E x h i b i t B.

M r . S . : Before you ge t on t o t h a t , t h e r e ' s something funny t h a t

occur red t o me, You may n o t a p p r e c i a t e it.

D r . Y . : A l l r i g h t . You t e l l us.

M r . S.: I n a c a s e w e had on pecans i n South Georgia , w e had found

b a c t e r i a l i n f e s t a t i o n , a n i n d i c a t i o n of f i l t h y handl ing ,

One of t h e w i t n e s s e s t h a t was t e s t i f y i n g f o r t h e de fense

main ta ined t h a t , "It i s n ' t p o s s i b l e t h a t you could have

found t h a t b a c t e r i a on t h e r e . We s i f t e d t h o s e pecans

and a l l of t h e b a c t e r i a w a s s i f t e d o f f , " You cou ld have

t h u n d e r s t r u c k m e .

D r . Y,; They r e a l l y shook them l o o s e by a s c reen , eh?

M r . S . ; And t h a t % what you would r u n i n t o ,

D r . Y . I Sure ,

M r . S , : But it ha2 its humor, 1 t h i n k t h e courtroom rocked w i t h

l a u g 5 t e i over t h e t h i n g ,

M r . M . ; Is t h a t of i n t e r e s t ? Tha t t% a group doing t h e mi lk work.

D r . Y . ; Yes. I t h i n k t h a t d e f i n i t e l y i s of i n t e r e s t . S h a l l we

make it E x h i s i t C , M r . McManus?

M r . M . : Yes,

D r . Y . : A l l r i g h t . I ' l l ~ u ta " C " he re i n t h e c o r n e r , and do

you want t o t e l l u s t h e c i rcumstances of t h i s photograph?

M r . M , : Th i s "C" r e p r e s e n t s a p i c t u r e of t h e group t h a t was s e n t

t o Boston t o check t h e i n t e r s t a t e m i l k s u p p l y of t h a t

c i t y . The i n s p e c t o r s would go t o a p l a c e i n New Hampshire

and, a s t h e mi lk was p u t on t h e c a r , baggage c a r , f o r

Boston, t h e i n s p e c t o r would no te the marks on t h e can and

who was t h e s h i p p e r and, when he g o t t o a s topping p l a c e

o r t h e p l a c e where h i s l a b o r a t o r y was, he would c o l l e c t

samples on t h e b a c t e r i o l o g i c a l c o n d i t i o n s and g i v e them

t o t h e b a c t e r i o l o g i s t , I n t h i s p i c t u r e , w e have , . . D r . Y.: Can you read them from l e f t t o r i g h t , maybe?

M r . M . : Yes. L e f t t o r i g h t was L,L, Judge of Ba l t imore , J.J.

McManus from New York, F.L. Wollard from New York,

William F. Lynch from New York, D . M . Walsh from New

York, and a man named McClelland, o r i s it McClellan,

he was t h e chemis t , a chemist from New York, t o o , I guess .

D r . Y . ; That was about i n . ,

M r . M. : That was 1915, S i m i l a r work was done i n 1916. The b a c t e r r

i o l o g i s t and t h e l a b o r a t o r y f a c i l i t i e s a r e n o t shown,

The work involved r i d i n g on t r a i n s and g e t t i n g u p v e r y

e a r l y i n t h e mornings t o meet t h e fa rmers d e l i v e r i n g t h e

mi lk and then m a i a t a i n i n g i ts cus tody u n t i l it g o t t o

t h e sampling p o i n t ,

M r . J . : Did t h i s work on m i l k provoke any p o l i t i c a l o p p o s i t i o n

o r exc i tement?

M r . M . : No, I d o n ' t t h i n k so. Rhode I s l a n d ha? a f a rmsr s '

l e g i s l a t u r e , and they were n o t t o o p l e a s e 6 abou t it

because i t emphasized t h e l a c k of c o n t r o l of t h e d a i r i e s .

But I t h i n k t h a t i t was p u b l i c l y suppor ted , and I was

t o l d t h e r e w e r e improvements a f t e r t h e work was done.

But w e , i n g e n e r a l , were t r y i n g -7 o r o u r o b j e c t i v e

i n g e n e r a l was t o g e t t h e s t a t e s t o t a k e a more s e r i o u s

view of t h e market m i l k .

M r . 3 . : Do you t h i n k t h a t t h e Bureau 's work on f l u i d milk had

any th ing t o do w i t h P u b l i c Hea l th Se rv i ce s t a r t i n g t h e i r

mi lk s a n i t a t i o n program?

M r . M. : I know t h e y had a s a n i t a t i o n program p r o h i b i t i n g t h e

shipment o f t h e m i l k under i n s a n i t a r y c o n d i t i o n s , and

w e used t o c o n s i d e r t h a t i n connec t ion w i t h t r a i n s .

W e used t o s e e i c e cream cans l i t t e r i n g up t h e baggage

c a r s on some of t h e t r a i n s . T h a t ' s t h e on ly c o n t a c t I

had w i t h P u b l i c Hea l th on m i l k . Sometimes we'd s e e t h e s e

empty c a n s w i t h t r a c e s of mi lk i n them and , of cou r se ,

t h a t b rought t h e f l i e s and e v e r y t h i n g e l s e t h e r e , I

was t o l d t h a t t heke w a s a r e g u l a t i o n p r o h i b i t i n g t h a t ,

M r . J.: The P u b l i c Hea'lth. S e r v i c e t b n was i n t h e Treasury

Department. Somewhere a long t h e l l 'ne, they s t a r t e d t h i s

m i l k s a n i t a t i o n program, and I was wondering whether t h e

beginning o f t h a t was s i m i l a r t o t h e i r s t a r t i n g i n work

on p e s t i c i d e s which seems t o have been a s a r e s u l t of

FDA a c t i v i t i e s .

M r . M . : Oh, y e s , t h a t was l a t e r . I n my day , a l l I r e c a l l i s t h a t

P u b l i c Hea l th had some z o n t r o l o f wa te r , i n o t h e r words

t h e d r i n k i n g wate r on t r a i n s -:?as supposed t o come from

a checked source . One t i m e I r e p o r t e d empty mi lk cans

s p l a s h i n g a l l over t h e baggage c a r , and they s a i d t h a t

came under t h e t r a n s p o r t a t i o n under i n s a n i t a r y c o n d i t i o n s ,

b u t I do n o t know about t h i s t h i n g . I d o n ' t know . . . t h e y may have t r i g g e r e d it f o r D r . Wiley, b u t I d i d n ' t

have any c o n t a c t w i t h them. We would t r y t o work wi th t h e

c i t y h e a l t h depar tments wherein i t ' s a t a l l p o s s i b l e .

I n g e n e r a l , t h e s t a t e laws were t hen w i t h t h e a g r i c u l t u r e

d i v i s i o n s of t h e r e s p e c t i v e u n i t s , and t h e y w e r e n ' t t o o

deep ly i n t e r e s t e d i n Food and Drug enforcement. There

w e r e e x c e p t i o n s , o f c o u r s e , l i k e t h e Dakotas and Massa-

c h u s e t t s , e t c .

D r . Y . : Any more p i c t u r e s t h a t show ep i sodes o r people who a r e

impor tan t?

Mr, N. : No. The on ly t h i n g i s t h a t you n o t i c e t h e preva lence

o f derby h a t s and s t i f f c o l l a r s , I marve l a t how I g o t

through Savannah w i t h a s t a r c h e d c o l l a r . I remember

t h e y used t o have t o p u t a . , , There% how I was supposed

t o look t h i r t y y e a r s ago.

D r . Y . ; Did t h e Bureau e v e r s p e c i f y what k ind of costume you had

t o wear?

M r . M . : No. I never had any k i c k on it. I t was a kind of t r a d i -

t i o n though t h a t w e should r e p r e s e n t t h e Department i n

a r e s p e c t a b l e way a n d , f o r t h a t r ea son , we used t o go

t o h o t e l s where we'd have f a c i l i t i e s f o r r e c e i v i n g

te legrams and , i f we were asked , a s we f r e q u e n t l y were

by the d e a l e r where we were s t a y i n g , w e could t e l l them

of a p l a c e which would r e f l e c t c r e d i t on u s and s loppy

c l o t h e s was d i scouraged . But t h e r e were no r e g u l a t i o n s

i s s u e d on it, t h a t I r e c a l l . We t r i e d t o g e t most of our

men t o t r y t o look n e a t because it made t h e i r work e a s i e r

i f t h e y were r e spec t ed f o r t h e i r appearance. So I t h i n k ,

i n g e n e r a l , t h a t was t h e c a s e i n most of t h e p l a c e s .

I d o n ' t r e c a l l . . . W e d i d n ' t have many m i s f i t s , There

were some who d i d c ' t l i k e t h e work and t h e n , du r ing t h e

Depress ion y e a r s , i n t h e ' 3 0 ' s e s p e c i a l l y , our s a l a r i e s

were f r o z e n . A g r i c u l t u r e s a l a r i e s were f r o z e n a l l t h e

way th rough , and t h e r a i l r o a d s and everybody e l s e was

g e t t i n g b i g money f o r j u s t c l e r i c a l work, bu t many of

u s s t u c k it o u t . . . came through a l l r i g h t , We t r i e d

t o avoid . , , t r i e d t o encourage t h e men n o t t o s t a y

a t cheap boarding houses o r p l a c e s l i k e t h a t .

D r . Y . : What k ind of f i n a n c i a l ar rangements were you on w i t h

r e g a r d t o your t r a v e l ?

M r . M.: W e l l , t h e first year there was a f i v e d o l l a r l i m i t which

t h e Admin i s t r a t i on u n o f f i c i a l l y changed t o f o u r , I re-

member my f i r s t l e t t e r from D r . Wiley was one , , ?

"We n o t i c e your expense account a t t h e Cleveland t r i a l

was so much. P l e a s e t r y and be more c a r e f u l nex t t ime ,

e t c . " Of cou r se , even i n t h o s e days , s i x t y y e a r s ago ,

a h o t e l w i t h a b ~ t hwas about two o r two- f i f t y and s o

I r e c a l l t h a t . . , ir, h i s own s i g n a t u r e , too . A l l of

u s went up t h e r e on a Grand J u r y c a s e and t h a t p r e v a i l e d .

Then we g o t down t o f o u r , The f i v e d o l l a r was a l i m i t ,

and t h e f o u r d o l l a r was, I d o n ' t know what you c a l l

it, p e r diem. I n o t h e r words, you could spend it wi thou t

account ing f o r e a c h d e t a i l . The o t h e r way--you had t o

g e t r e c e i p t s from t h e h o t e l and swear t o your mea l s , We

were g e t t i n g f o u r d o l l a r s , whi le deputy marsha ls who j u s t

s t ayed i n boarding houses were g e t t i n g f i v e . That

was A g r i c u l t u r e , though. We s t u c k it o u t . I t was

kind o f hard . You had t o know t h e h o t e l c l e r k t o g e t

a good room,

D r . Y . : When d i d t h e i n s p e c t o r s begin t o u s e automobi les?

M r . M . : I d o n ' t know, There was a p r o v i s i o n a g a i n s t it when I

went t o Savannah as c h i e f down t h e r e . W e c o u l d n ' t g e t

au tomobi les , excep t t r u c k s , and t h e nava l s t o r e s u n i t ,

which was s e p a r a t e i n ~ g r i c u l t u r e , had a t r u c k , something

l i k e a d e l i v e r y wagon i n which t h i s Lewis Smith had t o

d r i v e one t ime. And, f i n a l l y , something had t o be done,

The f e l l o w backed i n t o something ar?d I s a i d , "Take this

down t o t h e r e p a i r man and s e e if he can fkx this body

so t h a t we can look o u t t h e back." So we s a n t e d t h a t

k ind of a body, and they p u t i n one of t h e s e what t hey

c a l l e d pick-up t r u c k bod ie s i n t he c a r , and it was an

e n t i r e l y d i f f e r s n t c a r , bu t it w a s r e p a i r s t o t h e t h i n g

and it solved two problems, We d i d n ' t have t o pay much,

b u t it was q u i t e a t ime l a t e r be fo re w e were al lowed t o

purchase passenger c a r s . And then when w e were i n

Savannah, w e were on ly al lowed t o purchase them i f w e 1

could p rov ide s t o r a g e . So Smith had one and . . . M r . J.: So you k e p t t r a v e l l i n g on t r a i n s q u i t e a whi le a f t e r t h e

advent of t h e automobi le?

Mr, M . : Oh, y e s , and I r e c a l l cove r ing t h e Peach D i s t r i c t around

F o r t Va l l ey . Walking . . , I had t o walk two o r t h r e e

m i l e s , and it was a l l r i g h t . We su rv ived .

M r . S . : That must have been i n t h e 2 0 ' s when w e s t a r t e d g e t t i n g

au tomobi les .

M r . M . : Y e s , it must have been. I remember t h i s Lewis Smith

used t o t a k e t h e t r u c k as w e c a l l e d it then . I t was l i k e

a m a i l t r u c k , t h e o l d ma i l t r u c k . I t had a s c reen wi re

and c u r t a i n s on it. An i c e wagon r an i n t o him when he

was t a k i n g it home, Well , i t was embarrass ing. What was

he do ing w i t h it a f t e r hours? H e was prov id ing s t o r a g e . . M r . S . : H e t o l d me about t h e t i m e he picked up a . , . Mr.. M. : Oh, y e s , he picked up an i t i n e r a n t co lo red boy and . . .

M r . S . : And this passenger began t o have an e p i l e p t i c f i t i n

the back o f t h e t r u c k , and it caused a l o t o f exci tement .

D r . Y , : So a few t h i n g s had t o be i m p r w i s e d .

M r . M . : Yes, we had q u i t e a l o t of problems t h e r e .

M r . J . : You w e r e n ' t , of cou r se , amongst t h o s e p r e s e n t who l i n e d

up on t h e Mall w i t h t h e shopping bags , bu t perhaps you

could t e l l u s t h a t s t o r y a s you 've heard it from o t h e r

people .

M r . M . : Well, I heard it from Nr. Wollard who was one of t h e

, , . he was c h i e f of Bal t imore D i s t r i c t f i n a l l y , f o r

a s h o r t t i m e , and he was one of t h e o r i g i n a l i n s p e c t o r s .

He w a s a V i r g i n i a n who had been working i n t h e Hea l th

Department a t Washington b e f o r e he came t o u s .

M r . J . : How many i n s p e c t o r s were t h e r e a t t h i s f i r s t c l a s s ?

Mr. M . : I t h i n k t h e r e v e r e about twenty. A t one t ime I had a

coun t , I could a lmos t name them, b u t . . . And then my

group had f o u r of which none of them s t a y e d . One was a

lawyer . . . s t u d i e d law i n Chicago; one was D r . Horgan.

He became a famous surgeon i n Washinqton, H e was a n i c e

young f e l l ow. And who was t h e t h i r d ? The t h i r d man was

a smoke i n s p e c t o r f o r t h e D i s t r i c t and o u r work was t o o

s t r enuous f o r him.

M r . J . : Yes. Washington had an i n s p e c t o r t o p r e v e n t f o u l i n g

t h e atmosphere w i t h smoke.

M r . J.: They had a n a i r p o l l u t i o n program t h e r e a t t h a t t ime?

M r . M.: Yes, way back. Th i s f e l l o w was a smoke i n s p e c t o r , and I

t h i n k Frank Wollard was a l s o one, t o o f t h i s man who became

c h i e f , But t h i s man, B u t t s , he d i d n s t stay w i t h u s Yery

long ,

M r . J.? Who d i d t h e s e smoke i n s p e c t o r s work f o r ? The D i s t r i c t ?

M r . M . : The D i s t r i c t Hea l th Department,

D r . Y . : And it was from M r . Wollard t h a t you heard t h e s t o r y

about t h e . ,

M r . M , ; M r . Wollard of Bal t imore was t e l l i n g u s of h i s expe r i ences

and he s a i d t h e r e were f o u r of them i n a group and D r .

Bigelow had arranged f o r them t o go o u t and g e t samples

end he f u r n i s h e d them each w i t h one of t h e , . . what

would be a shopping bag. I t was of one of t h o s e woven

f i b e r s , They were t o go and p i c k o u t samples t hey thought

were a d u l t e r a t e d . They had t o c r o s s from C S t r e e t over

t o Pennsylvania Avenue where most of t h e s t o r e s were

and pas s ing th rough t h e Mal l which was p a r t of t h e grounds

of t h e Department of A g r i c u l t u r e Bui ld ing . M r . Campbell

looked a t M r . Wollard and t h e n a t t h e bag, and they

exchanged looks . Then t h e y dropped t h e bags i n t h e shrubbery.

And nobody asked them corning back,

One time I w a s i n Washington, and I was t o l d t o g e t

a sample of ice, and I was t o l d t h a t t h e r e was a schooner

t h a t came i n from Maine. Th i s was i n August, 1 9 1 1 , I

t h i n k . They d i d n ' t know how t h o s e m i l l ponds i n New

England were from t h e s a n i t a r y s t a n d p o i n t , s o t hey wanted

a sample f o r b a c t e r i o l o g i c a l examinat ions , So I buy

a 200 pound chunk of i c e from t h e s t evedore and g e t a

t r u c k and t a k e i t up t o Bac te r io logy , and they sampled it.

D r . Y. : When you were i n Savannahr t h e y opened s u r v e i l l a n c e

o f P u e r t o Rtco, Is t h a t r i g h t ? Was Pue r to Rico under

t h e Savannah D i s t r i c t ?

M r . I t was under Washington, what l i t t l e t h e r e was i n t h a t

t i m e . F i n a l l y , I t h i n k i t d i d come under New York,

b u t t h a t ' s a r e c e n t t h i n g . But t hen , i t ' s been abandoned

t o t h e I n s u l a r a u t h o r i t i e s now. D r . A . Taylor , a s I

remember, was one of t h e f i r s t to work i n Pue r to Rico.

Then he was succeeded by a M r , Wilcox who d i e d , and who

came t o Savannah l a t e r , And t h e n Wllford J . McGee,

t h a t ' s r i g h t ; he was a former chemis t i n Savannah, he

went t o P u e r t o Rico, and he s t ayed , I t h i n k , u n t i l t h e

I n s u l a r government took over .

D r . Y . : But Savannah d i d n ' t have charge o f P u e r t o Rico.

r . M . : No. We had no charge a t a l l , I n f a c t , we had no c o n t a c t .

The o n l y c o n t a c t i n t h o s e days b e f o r e p l ane s e r v i c e

was t h e N e w York-Puerto Rican Line. And they d i d p r e t t y

w e l l . I t was t h e u s u a l d i f f i c u l t i e s of f o r e i g n s e r v i c e

today; t h a t i s , some of them had no i n t e n t i o n of l e a r n i n g

t h e Spanish language which I would t h i n k would be t h e

f i r s t r e q u i s i t e , and a sympathe t ic a t t i t u d e was t h e o t h e r .

Our man S a l l i n g e r who came w i t h u s , he had been i n t h e

P h i l i p p i n e s wh i l e t h e r e was some s e r v i c e t h e r e . But I

do n o t r e c a l l . , . McGee was t h e l ~ s tman i n P u e r t o

Rico, I t h i n k . L i t t l e f e l l o w s and Wilcox, Bosworth and

o t h e r s , b u t w e o n l y saw them once a y e a r i n N e w York

when w e went u p t h e r e f o r i n s p e c t i o n , They had problems.

There were many impor t s from Spainr-they w e r e u sed ,

t hey examined a good deal--qdince p a s t e , s q u i d , canned

s q u i d , canned s a r d i n e s ,

D r . Y . : Now, was it r e g u l a r p r a c t i c e t o c a l l a l l t h e i n s p e c t o r s

i n t o Washington f o r a conference once a yea r?

M r . M . : No, it w a s n ' t r e g u l a r , b u t it had been done e v e r y s o o f t e n .

I t was more of a D i s t r i c t t h i n g . , . t h e Eas t e rn D i s t r i c t .

A f t e r M r . Campbell took over a s A s s i s t a n t Chief o r

something. What was he? No, he was , . . a f t e r Mr.

Campbell gave up h i s p o s i t i o n a s Chief of t h e Eas t e rn

D i s t r i c t , it was made headquar te rs i n New York. A M r .

Har t took charge . H e l a t e r went t o t h e Western D i s t r i c t

and t h e y brought i n t h e i r own i n s p e c t o r s each t i m e . The

Washington people a t t e n d e d t h a t , r a t h e r than we going t o

Washington. I t was o n l y about once every t e n y e a r s t h e r e

was a g e n e r a l i n s p e c t i o n t h e r e , of wGch many of t h e

i n s p e c t o r s , e s p e c i a l l y t h e s e n i o r o n e s , would come t o

Washington from a l l t h e D i s t r i c t s .

D r . Y . : Was it a r e g u l a r t h i n g f o r you t o go t o AAFDOUS? What

does t h a t mean?

Mr. M . i American Assoc i a t i on o f Food and Drug O f f i c i a l s of t h e

Un i t ed S t a t e s , No. A l l I went t o was t h e Sou theas t e rn

Assoc i a t i on . I was S e c r e t a r y t h e n , f o r about twenty

y e a r s , and t h a t w a s t h e o n l y one t h a t I a t t e n d e d . I f

t h e o t h e r one happened t o be i n my t e r r i t o r y , I could go ,

b u t I d o n ' t r e c a l l more than once.

D r . Y . ; Was much e f f o r t p laced on c o n t i m i n g educa t ion on t h e

p a r t of the i n s p e c t o r s and e s p e c i a l l y t h e c h e m i s t s t o

keep them up w i t h t h e c u r r e n t c u t t i n g edge of technology,

i n t h e c a s e of t h e i n s p e c t o r s , and chemis t ry , i n t h e c a s e

of t h e chemis t s?

M r . M . : W e l l , I r e c a l l e a r l y , I know it was i n S t . Louis when

I f i r s t went t h e r e , t h a t somebody had w r i t t e n i n and

asked f o r a s u b s c r i p t i o n t o t h e Chenical A b s t r a c t s of

t h e American Chemists Soc ie ty and t h e word came back

t h a t D r . Wiley expected eve ry chemist t o be a member of

t h e s o c i e t y . Well , i n t hose days , it was on ly a5out

six d o l l a r s a y e a r , and now i t ' s s i x t e e n . So, anyhow,

I jo ined i n S t . Louis , b u t T d i d n ' t a t t e n d many meet ings

because I was away, Then t h e r e was t h e m a t t e r o f t h e

c i r c u l a r l e t t e r s and t h e y w e r e f i r s t in tended on ly f o r

t h e s u p e r v i s o r s . And t h e n we c i r c u l a t e d them o c r s e l v e s

more, That consc ious e f f o r t , I t h i n k , d a t e s back t o M r .

Campbell t a k i n g charge. That was what . . . about 1 9 3 0

o r something l i k e t h a t when he became n o t Commissioner

b u t . . . D r . Y . : ' 2 7 , I t h i n k when t h e Food and Drug Admin i s t r a t i on was

set up.

M r . M . : Then t h e r e was more of it and then we . . . then I remember

some i n s p e c t o r wrote under what he d i d on Saturday . . . we used t o work on Sa turday , . . r ead l e t t e r s from t h e

D i s t r i c t o f f i c e , s e e , s o we began t o wonder how much t ime

was be ing s p e n t on it. But t h e y w e r e encouraged t o in?

q u i r e and t h e r e was, i n o u r d i s t r i c t , a s o i c a l l e d Blue

F i l e which was carbon c o p i e s o f a l l l e t t e r s t o t h e D i s t r i c t

o r i n s p e c t o r s s o t hey could keep i n touch--those who

wanted t o t a k e t h e t i m e . W e d i d n ' t expec t them t o t a k e

working hours , b u t w e d i d n ' t mind i f t hey d i d .

M r . S , : O f c o u r s e , speaking from a c h e m i s t ' s s t a n d p o i n t , we were

encouraged t o improve o u r s e l v e s on our own w i t h v e r y l i t t l e

assistance from t h e Admin i s t r a t i on , bu t it was encouraged

and, o f c o u r s e , most any decen t and s e l f - r e s p e c t i n g

chemis t l i k e d t h a t i d e a .

D r . Y.: What would you do? Read j o u r n a l s o r would you t a k e cou r se s?

M r . S . : W e belonged t o p r o f e s s i o n a l s o c i e t i e s and met people and

g o t o u t i n t h e f i e l d and r ead t h e correspondence. Now

w e d i d have c o m ~ n i c a t i o n t h a t came o u t of C e n t r a l

Headquar te rs , a sc ien t i f i c . ; type of magazine, pamphlets ,

you could c a l l them, and then t h e r e ' s t h e AQAC which i s

e n t i r e l y , p r a c t i c a l l y was l a r g e l y he ld by Food and Drug

and a l l chemis t s were encouraged t o p a r t i c i p a t e i n t h e

r e s e a r c h of t h i s t ype of work and develop methods, be-

cause we r e a l i z e d then t h a t i f w e d i d n ' t develop methods,

we wouldn ' t have methods, and t h e r e had t o be methods

developed and t e s t e d . So, I would say it was encouraged

on your own. I t a l l depended on t h e i n d i v i d u a l and how

much he would p u t i n t o it.

D r . Y . : Sure . Were you encouraged t o go t o t h e O f f i c i a l Agri-

c u l t u r a l Chemists convent ions?

M r . S.: Well , y e s , i n t h e sense t h a t you , . . that you knew

one o r two would be p icked from the Dis t r i c t ,

D r . Y . : They had t h e i r way pa id?

M r . S . : The way pa id . , . anybody e l s e . . , t hey would g i v e

them t h e t i m e , b u t n o t t h e expenses . From this f a r down,

it was an expens ive d e a l , so t h a t t h o s e who came i n on

t h e i r own w e r e t h o s e who were c l o s e by, wherever t h e

mee t ing was h e l d ,

D r . Y . : I f anyone wanted t o go on w i t h f u r t h e r formal educa t ion and

g e t ano the r deg ree and, I t a k e i t , t h i s d i d happen,

c e r t a i n l y i n Washington, t h e r e were people who g o t MD

degrees on t h e s i d e wh i l e t hey were working. Was any

p r o v i s i o n made t o he lp t h e m , o r was t h i s e n t i r e l y a m a t t e r

t h a t was v o l u n t a r y ?

Mr. S. : I t h i n k it was more v o l u n t a r y .

M r . M , : Yes, I r e c a l l t h a t they were encouraged. i n f a c t I was

going t o Washington one t i m e t o t a k e advantage of t h a t ,

b u t I dec ided I ' d r a t h e r s t a y where I was.

M r . S . : Now, t h e y d i d hold t r a i n i n g s c h o o l s of d i f f e r e n t t y p e s f o r

t h e Admin i s t r a t i on t h a t had t o d e a l w i t h t h e work, For

i n s t a n c e , w e had a f i s h s choo l on decomposit ion s t u d i e s

i n Boston. We've had seminars t h a t w e were al lowed

t o go. These a r e i n more l a t e r y e a r s t h a t we were al lowed

t o a t t e n d and encouraged and p a i d expenses t o .

D r . Y . : 3 3 connec t ion w i t h c e r t a i n p r o j e c t s ?

M r . S.: In s t rumen ta t ion and t h a t t ype of t h i n g , Now, l a t e l y ,

t h e y have had this school i n Georgetown that-- they have

a Georgetown I n s t l t w t e , NOW t h e y r e g u l a r l y have s e n t

people up there a t government expense f o r t r a i n i n g i n

i n s t r u m e n t a t i o n , I n t h e l a s t t e n o r twelve y e a r s , I

would say , it has been v e r y s t r o n g l y encouraged.

D r . Y.: I t h i n k t h a t there1.s been a g r e a t change, bu t i n t h e e a r l y

days , t h e r e was , , ,

M r . S . : W e l l , t h e r e was a t r a n s i t i o n pe r iod .

D r . Y . : R igh t . Well , w e a r e about through w i t h t h i s t a p e , Are

t h e r e any l a s t words of wlsdom t h a t we want t o p u t down

he re b e f o r e w e ad jou rn t h i s conve r sa t ion? Thank you f o r

being w i t h u s and sha r ing your remin iscences , M r . Schiffman,

and thank you, M r . NcManus, You may t h i n k of a hundred

t h i n g s a f t e r we're th rough t h a t w e h a v e n ' t g o t t e n on

t a p e , and w e 1 . l l reserve t h e o p t i o n t o have ano the r v i s i t

l i k e t h i s , w i t h your permiss ion , a t a l a t e r occas ion .

Thank you f o r coming on down, M r . J ans sen , and s h a r i n g

i n t h i s v i s i t ,

M r . J . : I a p p r e c i a t e it ve ry much.

D r . Y . : F ine .

M r . S. : Wel l , I 've enjoyed it.

M r . M . : I t ' s been a p l e a s u r e t o m e t o r e c a l l some of t h e work

being done by my a s s o c i a t e s i n t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n a s a

whole.

D r . Y.: And i t ' s h e l p f u l f o r t h s h i s t o r i c a l r eco rd because some

of t h e s e i n c i d e n t s can'"c be r ecap tu red from t h e paper

documents ,

Pho to B , T h i s i s a p i c t u r e of t h e s t i l l of Xiiel U o t t e r i n phe wooded a r e a

t cf l; lhi tehaven,Carbon Coun ty , P e n n s y l v ~ n i a on J u n e 24 , 1914 . i l ~ u t h e n t i c samples o i l of r0iir!ter:.reen viere ob ta i r i ed by I n s p e c t o r J.J .i,,d~fianus, ( I n o v e r a l l s on l e f t ) M r . D o t t e r and boy on r i g h t .