HISTORY OF THE

U. S. FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION

Interview between:

Wil l iam C . H i l l

D i rector , San Francisco D i s t r i c t

and

Fred L. Lofsvold

Food and Drug Administration

San Mateo, Ca l i fo rn ia

June I S , 1982

INTRODUCTION

This i s a t ranscr ipt ion of a taped interview, one of a

s e r i e s conducted by Robert G. Porter and Fred L. Lofsvold,

r e t i r ed employees of the U. S. Food and Drug Administration.

The interviews were held with r e t i r ed F.D.A. employees

whose recol lect ions may serve to enrich the wri t ten record.

I t i s hoped tha t these narratives of things past will serve

as source material f o r present and future researchers; t ha t

the s to r i e s of important accomplishments, in te res t ing events,

and distinguished leaders will f ind a place i n t ra ining and

or ientat ion of new employees, and may be useful to enhance

the morale of the organization; and f i n a l l y , tha t they will

be cf value t o Dr. James Harvey Young in the writ ing of the

history of the Food and Drug Administration.

The tapes and t ranscr ipt ions will become a par t of the

col lect ion of the National Library of Medicine and copies of

the t ranscr ipt ions will be placed i n the Library of Emory

University.

---

Pubi~c Health Service DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH R H U M A S SERVICES

Food aqd Drug Administration Room 500 U.S.Customhouse 721 19th Street Denver. Colorado 80202 303-837-4915

TAPE INDEX SHEET

CASSETTE NUMBER(S) I , 2. 3 , and 4

GENERAL TOPIC OF INTERVIEW: History of the Food and Druq Administration

DA7E:~une 15, 1982 PLACE: San Mateo, CA LENGTH: 220 minutes

INTERVIEWEE INTERVIEWER

NAME: William C. Hill NAME: Fred L. Lofsvold

ADDRESS: ADDRESS: U. S. Food & Drug Adpin.

Denver, Colorado

FDA SERVICE DATES: FROM 1948 TO: Present RETIRED? Nq

TITLE: Director, San Francisco District (If retired, title of last FDA position)

CASS. SIDE EST.MIN. PAGE SUBJECT NO. NO.1 ON TAPE NO.I I

Biographical sketch. Summary of FDA career. lnspection work at St. Louis.

Investigation of illegal drug sales. Flour mill inspections.

II II 1 1 (continued).

Kansas City flood. More illegal drug work. Inspection of insanitary food plants. Educational program for flour mills. Testimony at trials. More insanitary food inspections.

Transfer to San Francisco. lnspection work at San Francisco,

Inspections of insanitary food plants. Dried fruit inspections. Planters Peanuts case. Campbell Soup case.

Transferred to Dallas. Tex Palmer counterfeit drug case, Other illegal drug sale cases.

TAPE INDEX SHEET Interviewee: William C. Hill Page 2 of 2 a CASS. SIDE EST.MIN. PAGE NO. NO. ON TAPE NO.

3

SUBJECT

Other i 1 legal drug sale cases (continued). Star Crab Co. case. Relations with U.S. Attorney. Prosecution of a responsible officer in firm. Cal-Tex imitation orange juice case. Cancer cure conspiracy. Early Laetrile cases. Toxic new drug investigation. Ghiradelli Chocolate case. Transferred to San Francisco. Selected for Executive Developmeht training. Acting Director, San Francisco District. McKay McKinnon, Jr. Executive Development Training cburse. Congressional liaison experiencei Caesar Chavez hearing.

I I II II (continued). Fish inspection bill hearing. Transferred to Kansas City. Transferred to San Francisco. Early experiences as District Director. Relations with Pacific islands gpvernments. Conmissioner George Larrick. Deputy Commissioner J. L. Harvey. Commissioner James Goddard. Commissioner Herbert Ley. Commissioner Charles Edwards. Commissioner Alex Schmidt. Commissioner Donald Kennedy.

1 1 II 1 0 (continued). Commissioner jere Goyan. Comments on deregulation. End of interview.

T h i s i s an i n t e r v i e w i n t h e FDA o r a l h i s t o r y s e r i e s . We a r e

i n t e r v i e w i n g t o d a y M r . W i l l i a m C. H i l l , D i s t r i c t D i r e c t o r a t

San F r a n c s c o D i s t r i c t . The i n t e r v i e w i s t a k i n g p l a c e

The d a t e i s J u n e 1 5 ,

1982. I n e r v i e w e r i s F r e d L o f s v o l d .

L o f s v o l d : B i l l , w o u l d y o u k i n d o f s k e t c h y o u r b a c k g r o u n d a s

t o when a n d w h e r e y o u w e r e b o r n ; w h e r e y o u w e r e e d u c a t e d and

t h e n b r i e f l y r u n t h r o u g h y o u r FDA c a r e e r , a s t o v a r i o u s p o s i -

t i o n s t h a t y o u h a v e h e l d w i t h t h e a g e n c y .

H i l l : W e l l , i t a l l s t a r t e d o n A u g u s t 2, 1920, when I was b o r n

i n a l i t t l e c o u n t r y t o w n i n s o u t h e r n I l l i n o i s c a l l e d Anna.

T h i s was a l i t t l e t o w n o f a b o u t 3 3 0 0 p e o p l e . E v e r y o n e knew

e v e r y o n e e l s e ' s b u s i n e s s , t h e r e w e r e n o s e c r e t s i n t h a t t o w n

a t a l l . My dad h a d b e e n i n t h e Army, d u r i n g W o r l d War I . He

a n d m o t h e r , s h o r t l y a f t e r I was b o r n , moved t o a l i t t l e f a r m

j u s t o u t o f Cobden, I l l i n o i s , w h i c h i s s t i l l a s m a l l e r l i t t l e

c o u n t r y town . We l i v e d t h e r e u n t i l I was a b o u t s i x y e a r s o l d

a n d t h e n we moved b a c k t o Anna, a n d t h e r e s t o f my e a r l y y e a r s

u p t h r o u g h c o l l e g e , t h e f o l k s l i v e d i n Anna. My dad was i n

t h e d a i r y b u s i n e s s , d e l i v e r i n g m i l k , r e t a i l a n d home d e l i v e r -

ies, 1 used t o h e l p h i m do t h a t , We w o u l d d e l i v e r , i m some

c a s e s , a h a l f p i n t o f m i l k t w i c e a d a y t o t h e l i t t l e o l d

l a d i e s w i t h g r e y t e n n i s shoes . We w o u l d p u t i t i n t h e i r i c e

b o x e s , r e a l l y p e r s o n a 1 s e r v i c e . We g o t t h r e e c e n t s f o r a

b o t t l e o f m i l k , t w i c e a day. A c t u a l l y , we w o u l d r u n o u r l e g s

o f f , t r y i n g t o make a l i v i n g d o i n g t h a t . T h a t was h i s m a i n

b u s i n e s s a l l d u r i n g my e a r l y y e a r s . I g r e w u p w i t h k n o w i n g

t h a t i n d u s t r y a l i t t l e b i t .

I was i n t h e Boy S c o u t s . I p l a y e d i n a b a n d i n h i g h

s c h o o l ; p l a y e d f o o t b a l l i n h i g h s c h o o l a n d g o t m y s e l f b a n g e d

u p a l i t t l e b i t o n t h a t .

My dad h a d gone t h r o u g h s c h o o l i n a l i t t l e c o u n t r y , one

room, s c h o o l b u i l d i n g a n d h e g o t t h r o u g h t h e t h i r d g r a d e , I

t h i n k . My m o t h e r a l s o w e n t t o a l i t t l e c o u n t r y one r o o m

s c h o o l . She d i d f i n i s h , b u t c o u l d n ' t go t o t o w n t o t h e h i g h

s c h o o l s o s h e w e n t t o t h e e i g h t h g r a d e t h r e e y e a r s , u n t i l s h e

was o l d enough t o g e t o u t o f s c h o o l s o s h e d i d n ' t h a v e t o g o

anymore. Anyway, Dad was i n s i s t e n t f r o m a s f a r b a c k a s I

remember t h a t I w o u l d go t o c o l l e g e .

We u s e d t o d r i v e t h r o u g h C a r b o n d a l e , I l l i n o i s a n d h e

w o u l d t e l l me t h a t t h a t ' s w h e r e I was g o i n g t o go t o c o l l e g e .

He h a d h i s m i n d made u p t h a t I was g o i n g t o h a v e t h e e d u c a t i o n

t h a t he h a d m i s s e d . When i t came t i m e f o r me t o go, I d i d n ' t

know w h a t I w a n t e d t o do. F i n a l l y j u s t b e f o r e s c h o o l was t o

s t a r t , I d e c i d e d y e s , I g u e s s I h a d t o go t o s c h o o l . I g o t

tho c a t a l o g f r o m t h e c o l l e g e a n d l o and b e h o l d , d i s c o v e r e d

t h a t t h e y t a u g h t s o m e t h i n g t h e r e b e s i d e s m u s i c . My p a r e n t s

h a d b e e n p u s h i n g o n me a l l t h e t i m e t o t a k e m u s i c . I f o u n d

o u t t h e y t a u g h t b i o l o g y t h e r e and t h a t was c e r t a i n l y w h a t I

h a d l i k e d a l l my l i f e . So I s a i d t h a t ' s w h a t I ' m g o i n g t o do.

M o t h e r h a d c o n n i p t i o n s , "What a r e y o u g o i n g t o d o w i t h t h a t

k i n d o f s t u d y ? " And I v e r y g l i b l y s a i d , " W e l l , I'll e i t h e r

t e a c h s c h o o l o r w o r k f o r t h e g o v e r n m e n t . " As i t e n d e d up,

I ' v e d o n e b o t h . I w a s n ' t t o o w o r r i e d a b o u t w h a t I was g o i n g

t o do i n t h e f u t u r e . I n t h o s e d a y s , I g u e s s we w e r e i n n o c e n t

a n d n a i v e a n d we f i g u r e d t h a t s o m e t h i n g w o u l d t a k e c a r e o f u s

a n d w e ' d g e t a l o n g .

I w e n t t o s c h o o l i n C a r b o n d a l e , w h i c h i s j u s t 2 0 m i l e s

f r o m w h e r e I 1ived. I was n o t a g o o d s t u d e n t . I was b r i g h t

a n d s m a r t b u t I h a t e d l i k e h e l l t o s t u d y a n d I w o u l d mot w o r k

a t i t . So, I made g o o d g r a d e s i n b i o l o g y a n d I made ploor

g r a d e s i n m o s t o f t h e o t h e r s t u f f . I d i d , f i n a l l y , g r 8 a d u a t e

a f t e r f o u r y e a r s o f i t .

D u r i n g my s e n i o r y e a r , W o r l d W a r I 1 b r o k e o u t a n d t h o u g h

I h a d n o t r e a c h e d t h e a g e when I h a d t o r e g i s t e r f o r t h e d r a f t

a t t h e t i m e , I knew I was g o i n g t o h a v e t o r e g i s t e r i n F e b r u -

a r y , r i g h t a f t e r t h e w a r h a d b r o k e n o u t i n December. One o f

g o o d b u d d i e s h a d a l r e a d y r e g i s t e r e d t h e p r e v i o u s summer a n d

g o t a n o t i c e f r o m h i s d r a f t b o a r d d u r i n g C h r i s t m a s v a c a t i o n

1941. R i g h t a f t e r t h a t when we w e n t b a c k t o s c h o o l l , h e

i d h e was g o i n g t o s e e w h a t t h e Navy h a d t o o f f e r a n d w o u l d

l i k e t o go w i t h h im . We w e r e g o i n g t o h i t c h h i k e o v e r t o t h e

n e x t t o w n t o t h e r e c r u i t i n g s t a t i o n . I w e n t a l o n g w i t h h i m

a n d we e n d e d u p b o t h en1 i s t e d i n t h e Navy. I t was an o f f -

i c e r ' s t r a i n i n g c o u r s e . We h a d t o h a v e a d e g r e e b e f o r e we

I

c o u l d go i n , s o t h a t g u a r a n t e e d t h a t I ' d g e t t o f i n i s h

c o l 1 ege.

T h a t summer, we b o t h f o u n d o u t t h a t t h e P u b l i c H e a l t h

S e r v i c e h a d a m a l a r i a c o n t r o l p r o j e c t g o i n g o n r i g h t o u t s i d e

C a r b o n d a l e , a n d t h e y n e e d e d a c o u p l e o f p e o p l e t h a t w e r e

i n t e r e s t e d i n b i o l o g y . We b o t h q u a l i f i e d . We b o t h a p p l i e d

f o r t h e j o b s a n d we b o t h g o t t h e j o b s . I was s t i l l e n r o l l e d

i n s c h o o l , i n t h e summer t e r m t a k i n g a r e q u i r e d c o u r s e i n

t r i g o n o m e t r y t h a t I n e e d e d t o go i n t h e Navy. W i t h some f a s t

t a l k i n g , " a p p l e p o l i s h i n g " , a s we c a l l e d i t i n t h o s e d a y s , t h e

p r o f e s s o r s a i d t h a t h e w o u l d g i v e me my c r e d i t s i f I ' d t a k e

t h e f i n a l e x a m i n a t i o n a n d p a s s i t , a n d I c o u l d g o a h e a d a n d

t a k e t h e j o b .

I w o r k e d f o r P u b l i c H e a l t h a l l d u r i n g t h e summer o f 1942 .

A t t h e end o f t h e s e a s o n , PHs was g o i n g t o s e n d u s t o C D C i n

A t l a n t a , G e o r g i a . N e i t h e r o f u s w a n t e d t o go b e c a u s e we w e r e

b o t h s c h e d u l e d t o go i n t o t h e Navy , j u s t a n y t i m e . Then PHs

o f f e r e d me t h e o p p o r t u n i t y t o go t o g r a d u a t e s c h o o l , t o g e t a

M a s t e r s i n P u b l i c H e a l t h a n d a c o m m i s s i o n . I t o l d them, "No,

was g o i n g t o go s e e t h e w o r l d i n t h e Navy , " a n d I t u r n e d

t h e m down, I n o r d e r t o k e e p a l o n g s t o r y s h o r t , we n e e d e d

s o m e t h i n g t o k e e p u s b o t h t h e r e . We w e r e h a v i n g a g o o d t i m e .

I g o t a n o t h e r o f f e r t o t e a c h s c h o o l i n o n e o f t h o s e c o a l

m i n i n g t o w n s . I n t h e f i r s t m o n t h o f t h e y e a r , t h e y h a d f o u r

t e a c h e r s a l r e a d y i n b i o l o g y . M a l e t e a c h e r s w e r e b e i n g d r a f t e d

j u s t a s f a s t a s t h e y ' d g e t h i r e d . My b u d d y a n d I w e r e b o t h

i n t e r v i e w e d . The p r i n c i p a l s a i d h e ' d t a k e e i t h e r one o f u s i f

we c o u l d s t a r t t e a c h i n g c l a s s on Monday. T h i s was on T h u r s d a y

n i g h t . He n e e d e d somebody d e s p e r a t e l y t o h o l d c l a s s e s on

Monday. So we a l m o s t g o t down t o f l i p p i n g a c o i n , t o s ~ e e who

w o u l d t a k e t h e j o b . Anyway I e n d e d up t a k i n g i t . My b u d d y

s t a y e d on t h e P H S j o b , u n t i l he g o t c a l l e d . I g u e s s I t a u g h t

s c h o o l f o r s i x weeks.

He g o t c a l l e d t o t h e Navy a n d I g o t c a l l e d t h e f o l l o w i n g

week. We b o t h w e n t t o N o r t h w e s t e r n U n i v e r s i t y i n C h i c a g o f o r

N a v a l t r a i n i n g . S p e n t o n e o f t h e c o l d e s t damn w i n t e r s i n

h i s t o r y i n C h i c a g o . I t was m i s e r a b l y c o l d up t h e r e . We w e r e

c o m m i s s i o n e d i n e a r l y March , 1 9 4 3 . I l u c k e d o u t a n d g o t a l -

m o s t a m o n t h ' s l e a v e , r i g h t o f f t h e s t a r t . I w e n t t o Wash-

i n g t o n , D.C., F o u r t h n a v a l d i s t r i c t f o r a m o n t h ' s t r a i n i n g i n

n a v a l o p t i c s . Then I was a s s i g n e d a b o a r d a s h i p . T h a t i s

w h e r e I s t a r t e d l e a r n i n g t h e i n s a n d o u t s o f gove rnmena

t r a v e l .

I was t o go t o M i a m i t o p i c k u p t r a n s p o r t a t i o n t h a t wou

t a k e me t o my s h i p , w h i c h I was t o mee t i n Panama. The Navy

h a d p r o v i d e d t w o d a y s t r a v e l t i m e t o g e t f r o m W a s h i n g t o n t o

M i a m i , p l u s f o u r d a y s t o g e t r e a d y o r do w h a t e v e r y o u b a d t o

do, g i v i n g me some s i x f u l l d a y s . A l l I h a d t o do was p a c k a

s u i t c a s e a n d t h a t d i d n ' t t a k e v e r y l o n g . I f o u n d o u t t h a t

y o u c o u l d r o u t e y o u r s e l f a n y way y o u w a n t e d t o go, a s l o n g a s

i t d i d n ' t d o u b l e t h e d i r e c t r o u t e . I g o t t h e m i l e a g e c h a r t s

o u t a n d I l o o k e d , a n d b y g o l l y I c o u l d d o i t . I r o u t e d m y s e l f

f r o m W a s h i n g t o n D.C., t o M i a m i b y way o f S t . L o u i s . The o l d

c h i e f who was m a k i n g o u t t h e t r a v e l o r d e r s s a i d , "You c a n ' t d o

t h a t ! " I s a i d , " W e l l , y o u m e a s u r e t h e m i l e a g e a n d see, " a n d

i t came o u t j u s t a b o u t t e n m i l e s l e s s t h a n d o u b l e , t o go t h a t

way. What I was l o o k i n g a t , I f i g u r e d t h i s m i g h t b e t h e l a s t

t i m e I ' m g o i n g t o g e t home f o r a l o n g l o n g t i m e , s o I t o o k

a d v a n t a g e o f i t . I w e n t a b o a r d s h i p i n t h e P a c i f i c a n d s e r v e d

i n t h e Navy u n t i l F e b r u a r y o f 1946.

I n t h e m e a n t i m e I g o t m a r r i e d . We h a d a b a b y a n d I

d i d n ' t h a v e a j o b . T h i n g s w e r e k i n d o f r o u g h . I t h o u g h t

a b o u t g o i n g b a c k i n t o t h e Navy. I t g o t t h a t r o u g h a n d t h a t

was p r e t t y bad. I e n d e d u p g e t t i n g a j o b t e a c h i n g b i o l o g y a n d

s c i e n c e i n h i g h s c h o o l a g a i n , i n a n o t h e r l i t t l e t o w n i n s o u -

t h e r n I 1 l i n o i s . I s t a r t e d t e a c h i ng, f o r $1,900.00 a y e a r . By

t h e e n d o f t h e f i r s t s c h o o l y e a r I h a d u s e d u p a l l my s a v i n g s

t h a t I h a d managed t o a c c u m u l a t e d u r i n g t h e N a v a l s e r v i c e a n d

was f a s t g o i n g b r o k e . I s t u c k w i t h i t f o r a w h i l e , b u t d e -

c i d e d t h a t I h a d t o f i n d s o m e t h i n g e l s e .

One d a y I was i n t h e P o s t O f f i c e a n d saw a j o b a n n o u n c e -

m e n t f o r a Food a n d D r u g ~ n s p e c t o r . I t l o o k e d a s i f I h a d t h e

b a s i c e d u c a t i o n a l q u a l i f i c a t i o n s f o r i t , s o I a p p l i e d t o t a k e

t h e exam. I s p e n t t h e w h o l e day t a k i n g t h a t exam. I was t h e

I

o n l y one t a k i n g i t , a n d t h e p o o r g u y h a d t o s i t t h e r e a:nd

w a t c h me a l l d a y t o s e e t h a t I d i d n ' t c h e a t . I t o o k u p e v e r y

l a s t m i n u t e t h a t I was a l l o w e d t o t a k e t h e e x a m i n a t i o n .

w a l k e d o u t v e r y d e p r e s s e d b e c a u s e I knew I h a d n ' t d o n e w e l l o n

i t a t a l l . I i m m e d i a t e l y f i l e d t o t a k e some more e x a m i n a t i o n s

w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f I n t e r i o r a n d w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f

A g r i c u l t u r e . Those t e s t s w e r e snaps . They w e r e b reeze is .

w e n t t h r o u g h t h o s e l i k e a h o t k n i f e t h r o u g h b u t t e r . Thle r e -

s u l t s w e r e v e r y a p p a r e n t when I g o t t h e s c o r e s b a c k . I h a d

p a s s e d Food a n d D r u g I n s p e c t o r exam, b y t w o p o i n t s . I h a d t o

p a s s w i t h a 6 5 a n d I h a d a 6 7 . I p r o m p t l y f o r g o t a b o u t t h a t

one. I g o t my o t h e r e x a m i n a t i o n s c o r e s a n d I h a d 9 7 o n one ,

a n d 1 0 2 o n t h e o t h e r one. I g o t t h e 1 0 2 b e c a u s e we g o t f i v e

p o i n t s e x t r a f o r m i l i t a r y s e r v i c e .

I t w e n t a l o n g f o r s e v e r a l m o n t h s when a l l o f a sudlden I

g o t a n o t e f r o m Food a n d D r u g a s k i n g me a w h o l e b u n c h olf o t h e r

q u e s t i o n s , s u c h a s w h a t k i n d o f e q u i p m e n t I c o u l d u s e , l a b o r -

a t o r y e q u i p m e n t a n d a b u n c h o f s t u f f l i k e . I r e s p o n d e d t o i t

a n d b e f o r e v e r y l o n g I g o t a c a l l , w a n t i n g t o know i f I w o u l d

b e a v a i l a b l e f o r an i n t e r v i e w . W e l l , L e o C r a m e r who was t h e

C h i e f I n s p e c t o r a t St, L o u i s rame t o t h e h i g h school w h e r e I

was t e a c h i n g . I was i n c l a s s , a t t h e t i m e , a n d I g o t t h i s r a p

on my d o o r . When I o p e n e d t h e d o o r t h e p r i n c i p a l i n t r o d u c e d

u s a n d s a i d M r . C r a m e r w a n t e d t o i n t e r v i e w me. We s t o a d r i g h t

o u t s i d e t h e d o o r o f my c l a s s r o o m a n d C r a m e r i n t e r v i e w e d me f o r

I

maybe 1 0 m i n u t e s o r so . The k i d s w e r e j u s t r a i s i n g h e l l i n -

s i d e b e c a u s e t e a c h e r was o u t o f t h e room. T h a t e v e n i n g t h e

p r i n c i p a l s a i d , " W e l l , l o o k s l i k e y o u g o t a new j o b . " He

s a i d , "The man was a p p a r e n t l y v e r y i m p r e s s e d a n d i n d i c a t e d h e

was g o i n g t o h i r e you . " S u r e enough , i t w a s n ' t v e r y l o n g

b e f o r e I g o t t h e n o t i c e t h a t I was b e i n g o f f e r e d a j o b i n

C h i c a g o . T h i s l e t t e r was f r o m M a l c o l m S t e p h e n s . I t h o u g h t

t h a t one o v e r f o r a b o u t a h a l f a d a y a n d d e c i d e d t h a t t h a t

w a s n ' t f o r me. I h a d s p e n t t w o w i n t e r s i n C h i c a g o a n d w i n t e r

was c o m i n g u p a g a i n . M r . S t e p h e n s t o l d me i n h i s l e t t e r

w e l c o m i n g me t o C h i c a g o t h a t i f I h a d a f a m i l y , I ' d b e t t e r

l e a v e t h e m b e h i n d a n d come on u p u n t i l I c o u l d g e t s e t t l e d .

He s a i d h o u s i n g was n o t g o o d i n C h i c a g o a n d a who1 e b u n c h o f

t h i n g s l i k e t h a t . W e l l , I d e c i d e d t h a t t h a t w a s n ' t f o r me. I

w r o t e b a c k a n d s a i d t h a n k s b u t I c a n ' t come t o C h i cago. 1 a-s a i d , " I f y o u ' v e g o t a j o b i n S t . L o u i s o r C i n c i n n a t i , I'll b e

h a p p y t o c o n s i d e r i t . " My w i f e ' s f o l k s l i v e d c l o s e t o S t .

L o u i s a n d I knew we h a d t e m p o r a r y h o u s i n g o v e r t h e r e .

M r . C r a m e r h a d t o l d me when d u r i n g t h e i n t e r v i e w i f I was

o v e r i n t h e S t . L o u i s a r e a , w h i c h I h a d m e n t i o n e d w e ' d b e o v e r

a t C h r i s t m a s v a c a t i o n , t h a t I s h o u l d s t o p i n t o t h e o f f i c e a n d

t a l k t o h im. So I d i d . I w e n t u p a n d was u s h e r e d i n t o Roy

P r u i t t ' s o f f i c e a n d we h a d a q u i t e a l o n g s e s s i o n . He k e p t

a s k i n g me, r e p e a t e d l y , why I w o u l d n ' t go t o C h i c a g o . And I

r e p e a t e d l y t o l d h i m why I w o u l d n ' t go t o C h i c a g o . I t was t o o

L o f s v o l d : B i l l , g o i n g b a c k t o y o u r r e p o r t i n g a t S t . L o u i s ,

a r e t h e r e some e x p e r i e n c e s t h e r e , when y o u w e r e a b r a n d new

y o u n g i n s p e c t o r t h a t y o u w o u l d l i k e t o t a l k a b o u t ?

H i l l : Yes, t h e r e a r e many, many e x p e r i e n c e s I remembe~r t h e r e

l e a r n i n g w h a t t h e a g e n c y was a b o u t . We c e r t a i n l y d o n ' t do

t h i n g s t o d a y l i k e we d i d b a c k t h e n . When I r e p o r t e d i n f o r

d u t y and was s w o r n i n , I was g i v e n a c o p y o f t h e l a w and an

I n s p e c t o r ' s manua l a n d a d e s k a n d was t o l d t h a t I s h o u l d s t u d y

t h i s l a w . W e l l , I s a t t h e r e a n d . . . t h a t l s a h a r d way t o go, t o

s i t down w i t h t h e Food a n d D r u g Law a n d b e t o l d t o s t u d y t h e

t h i n g . I h a d n o i d e a w h a t I was g o i n g t o b e d o i n g , w h a t i t

was a l l a b o u t o r a n y t h i n g b u t t o j u s t s i t down and t r y t o r e a d

t h a t damn book . T h a t was a r o u g h f i r s t c o u p l e o f days . B u t

t h e n I h a d a b r e a k . I g u e s s i t was a b o u t t h e s e c o n d d a y I was

t h e r e . L e o n a r d L e v i n , one o f t h e I n s p e c t o r s s a i d , "Hey how

a b o u t c o m i n g and g o i n g w i t h me. We a r e g o i n g o u t and make an

i n v e s t i g a t i o n on d r u g s . " I d i d n ' t know a n y t h i n g a b o u t d r u g s ,

d i d n ' t know w h a t we w e r e g o i n g f o r o r w h a t we g o i n g t o do.

B u t anyway L e o n a r d t o o k me o u t and we s t o p p e d o u t on a s t r e e t

and h e p o i n t e d o u t a d r u g s t o r e a n d h e s a i d , "Iw a n t y o u t o go

o v e r t h e r e and b u y some s e c o n a l s . " I d i d n ' t e v e n know w h a t

s e c o n a l s were . Maybe i t ' s a good t h i n g I d i d n ' t . B u t anyway ,

h e t o l d me t o go i n t o t h a t s t o r e t h e r e a n d go u p t o p h d r m a c i s t

a n d b u y some s e c o n a l s . W e l l , I w e n t i n t o t h e s t o r e a n d I d i d

w h a t h e t o l d me a n d t h e g u y l o o k e d a t me and f l a t l y r e ' f u s e d me

a n d I t u r n e d a r o u n d a n d w a l k e d b a c k o u t o f t h e s t o r e . I

d i d n ' t know w h a t i t was a l l a b o u t . I d i d n ' t know a b o u t o v e r -

t h e - c o u n t e r i n v e s t i g a t i o n s a n d n o b o d y t o l d me a b o u t t h a t o r

w h a t o r a n y t h i n g a b o u t them. B u t t h e n L e o n a r d e x p l a i n e d t o me

w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r I ' d come b a c k o u t ; w h a t i t was a l l a b o u t .

I w e n t i n t o t w o o r t h r e e o t h e r p l a c e s l i k e t h a t a n d I c o u l d n ' t

b u y a n y t h i n g .

I remember " P a p p y " C r a m e r a n d R o s c o e J o r d a n w a n t e d me t o

go w i t h them. Pappy was n o t l i k e t h e C h i e f I n s p e c t o r s t o d a y .

He t o o k u s u n d e r h i s w i n g ; h e a c t u a l l y w e n t o u t a n d made i n -

s p e c t i o n s w i t h u s a n d a l l t h a t k i n d o f s t u f f . O f c o u r s e i t

was a s m a l l g r o u p a n d h e c o u l d d o i t . We w e n t down t o a l i t -

t l e t o w n i n s o u t h e r n I l l i n o i s a g a i n , a n d I g u e s s R o s c o e h a d

g o n e t h r o u g h a n d made some b u y s i n t h i s l i t t l e d r u g s t o r e .

They w a n t e d me t o go a l o n g a n d t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o f i n i s h u p

t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n . R o s c o e h a d b o u g h t a d o z e n s e c o n a l s a n d

Pappy h a d b o u g h t a d o z e n s e c o n a l s and t h e y t o l d me t o g o i n

a n d b u y t w o d o z e n s e c o n a l s . So I d i d . The l i t t l e o l d man

s o l d me t w o d o z e n s e c o n a l s j u s t a s e a s y a s p i e . I w e n t b a c k

o u t , showed t h e m t o Pappy a n d we s e a l e d them, i d e n t i f i e d them.

We d l l went b a s k i n and we i d e n t i f i e d o u r s e l yes and we s t a r t e d

m a k i n g a c l o s e - o u t i n v e s t i g a t i o n . We c h e c k e d a l l h i s p r e -

s c r i p t i o n s , l i k e we u s u a l l y d i d . We c h e c k e d a l l o f h i s i n -

v o i c e s and l o a n d b e h o l d we came u p w i t h some s h o r t a g e s . He

was e x a c t l y s h o r t 48 s e c o n a l s .

L o f s v o l d : W h i c h i s w h a t y o u h a d b o u g h t .

H i l l : E x a c t l y w h a t we h a d b o u g h t . The o n l y r e a s o n h e h a d n ' t

b e e n s e l l i n g a n y t h i n g was b e c a u s e p e o p l e d i d n ' t know t o b u y i t

f r o m h im. H e ' d s e l l i t . B u t t h a t ' s a l l we c o u l d show h e was

s h o r t . A c t u a l l y , h e d i d n ' t g e t p r o s e c u t e d . No s h o r t a g ~ e s e x -

c e p t w h a t t h e t h r e e o f u s h a d b o u g h t . T h a t was my v e r y e a r l y

one.

Then I remember " P a p p y " s a i d we w e r e g o i n g t o make a

f l o u r m i l l i n s p e c t i o n . He h a d some c o m p l a i n t on i t . I h a d

s e e n a f l o u r m i l l f r o m t h e o u t s i d e , b u t t h a t ' s a l l . Palppy

t o o k me a n d we w e n t down t o a l i t t l e t own , down on t h e

M i s s i s s i p p i R i v e r i n M i s s o u r i , S t . M a r y ' s , M i s s o u r i . Hie

showed me a b o u t t h e i n s i d e o f t h e f l o u r m i l l and I remelmber we

t o o k o u r c o v e r a l l s a n d p u t t h e m on, o n one s i d e o f t h e d r e s s -

i n g room a n d we w o u l d h a v e o u r s u i t s a n d o t h e r c l o t h e s h a n g i n g

on t h e o t h e r s i d e . We w e r e c o v e r e d w i t h f l o u r , n a t u r a l l y .

A f t e r i t was a l l o v e r w i t h , Pappy r o l l e d u p h i s c o v e r a l l s a n d

s t u c k t h e m u n d e r h i s arm, t o w a l k o u t t o t h e c a r , He h ~ a d on a

b l u e s e r g e s u i t . We h a d b e e n v e r y c a r e f u t o k e e p t h e f l o u r

d u s t f r o m g e t t i n g on o u r c l o t h e s a n d t h e n Pappy r u i n s i t a l l

b y r o l l i n g u p t h o s e f i l t h y , f l o u r y c o v e r a 1s a n d p u t t i n ~ g t h e m

u n d e r h i s arm. T h a t was my i n t r o d u c t i o n o a f l o u r m i l l .

And c o u p l e y e a r s l a t e r , o r a y e a r o r s o l a t e r , I g u e s s

g o t i n t o w h a t I c o n s i d e r made my name, i f I h a v e a name i n t h e

a g e n c y , f r o m b a c k t h e r e . T h e r e was a p r o g r a m s t a r t e d t o

I

0 m e a s u r e t h e i n s e c t f r a g m e n t s i n f l o u r c o m p a r e d t o t h e i n s e c t s

i n t h e w h e a t t h a t t h e f l o u r was made f r o m . F o r some r e a s o n ,

somebody i n h e a d q u a r t e r s t h o u g h t t h a t I c o u l d d o t h e j o b b e t -

t e r t h a n a n y b o d y e l s e i n S t . L o u i s a n d s o I w o u l d h a v e t o d o

t h e j o b . I h a d b e e n i n o n e f l o u r m i l l , a b o u t o n e day . I w e n t

t o K a n s a s C i t y f o r t r a i n i n g . Roy P r u i t t s a i d , "You go o u t

t h e r e a n d l e a r n a l l a b o u t t h i s p r o g r a m . " And I t h o u g h t " W e l l ,

t h a t i s f i n e . " I w o u l d go.

I w e n t t o K a n s a s C i t y . I was t h e y o u n g e s t o n e i n t h e

g r o u p . I h a d n e v e r b e e n e x c e p t i n t h i s one f l o u r m i l l .

E v e r y b o d y e l s e was an o l d e x p e r i e n c e d h a n d a t i t . I f e l t l i k e

a r e a l f i s h o u t o f w a t e r t o h e a r t h e m t a l k i n g , u s i n g a l l t h e s e

t e r m s a n d I h a d a b s o l u t e l y n o c o n c e p t i o n w h a t t h e y m e a n t o r

w h a t t h e y w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t . I l e a r n e d a n d I l i s t e n e d a n d

t r i e d t o g e t some o f i t . F o r t u n a t e l y , I h a d H a r o l d S o u t h w o r t h

a s my h o t e l roommate ; we w e r e t e a m e d up. H a r o l d was a n o l d

e x p e r i e n c e d h a n d i n f l o u r m i l l i n s p e c t i o n s . He was o u t i n

M i n n e a p o l i s a n d h a d b e e n i n many, many f l o u r m i l l s . We w e r e

roommates a n d a t t h e e n d o f t h e w e e k ' s w o r k we w e n t o u t a s a

t e a m a n d made i n s p e c t i o n s o f f l o u r m i l l s i n t h e K a n s a s C i t y

ares. Tk% a i l1 t h a t H a r o l d and I hod got was i n f e s t e d , so J

g o t some e x c e l l e n t t r a i n i n g o n how t o g e t i n t o t h e e q u i p m e n t

a n d c h e c k i t o u t . I w e n t b a c k home a n d w e n t i n t o r e p o r t t o

Roy w h a t I h a d l e a r n e d a b o u t t h i s p r o g r a m a n d h e e n d e d u p

s a y i n g , " W e l l , y o u ' v e b e e n t h e r e , y o u ' v e g o t t h e t r a i n i n g .

I t ' s y o u r p r o g r a m , y o u r u n i t . " I t h o u g h t he was b e i n g r e a l

mean t o me, a t t h e t i m e . Now, I t h i n k I know w h a t he was d o -

i n g . He was p u t t i n g me t o t h e t e s t . N e v e r t h e l e s s a t t h a t

t i m e I t h o u g h t h e was b e i n g a w f u l u n r e a s o n a b l e a n d mean t o me,

d o i n g i t t h a t way. I s t a r t e d i n w i t h t h e p r o g r a m , m a k i n g t h e

i n s p e c t i o n s o f t h e m i l l s a n d such . I d i d f o o l a l o t o f p e o p l e

i n t h e m i l l i n g i n d u s t r y . They t h o u g h t t h a t I was an o l d hand ;

h a d been d o i n g i t f o r y e a r s , b u t I t o l d t h e m I c o u l d n ' t l e t

t h e m b e l i e v e t h a t . I t a l l w o r k e d o u t , I c a r r i e d t h a t p r o g r a m

t h r o u g h f o r t h e y e a r a n d a h a l f t h a t i t r a n . I t was a v e r y

d f f f i c u l t t i m e f o r me p e r s o n a l l y a n d f o r my f a m i l y t o o , b e -

c a u s e I was on t h e r o a d a l m o s t 100% o f t h e t i m e . I ' d l e a v e

home on Monday m o r n i n g a n d g e t b a c k F r i d a y n i g h t . I ' d u n p a c k

my s u i t c a s e , t u r n i n my s a m p l e s a n d s u c h a n d l e a v e t h e f o l l o w -

i n g Monday m o r n i n g a n d go t h e o t h e r d i r e c t i o n T h i s w e ~ n t on

f o r a y e a r and a h a l f .

L o f s v o l d : I n t h o s e d a y s , S t . L o u i s c o v e r e d a7 1 o f A r k a n s a s ,

h a l f o f M i s s o u r i a n d p a r t o f I l l i n o i s d i d n ' t it ?

H i l l : Yes, we h a d j u s t a b o u t e v e r y t h i n g i n I l l i n o i s c l e a r up

t o Cook C o u n t y . We h a d w e s t e r n T e n n e s s e e a n d K e n t u c k y , a l l o f

A r k a n s a s a n d a l l b u t t h e v e r y n o r t h w e s t c o r n e r o f M i s s o u r i ,

j u s t a b o u t 60 m i l e s o u t o f Kansas C i t y . We h a d t h e r e s t o f

i t . I n t h i s p a r t i c u l a r p r o g r a m , t h e m i l l s t h a t I h a d w e r e

s c a t t e r e d a l l t h e way f r o m Kankakee , I l l i n o i s down t o N e n t u c k y

a n d s o u t h e r n M i s s o u r i a n d e v e n o u t i n t o S p r i n g f i e l d , M i s s o u r i .

So i t was o n e h e l l o f a b i g c i r c l e . And i t was a n a w f u l l o t

o f t r a v e l i n g .

D u r i n g t h a t t i m e the...my y o u n g d a u g h t e r was j u s t a 1

t l e b i t t y t h i n g a t t h e t i m e a n d I knew e v e r y t h i n g t h a t wou

b r e a k d u r i n g t h e week, a l l h e r t o y s o r a n y t h i n g l i k e t h a t

w o u l d b r e a k , i t was p u t away a n d d a d d y w o u l d f i x i t when h e

comes home. So t h e y h a d a l l k i n d s o f t h i n g s l i n e d u p f o r

me t o do , f i x a n d r e p a i r o n weekends. She l o s t f a i t h w i t h

me o n c e when s h e s a v e d a b u s t e d r u b b e r b a l l o o n f o r me. I

c o u l d n ' t r e p a i r h e r r u b b e r b a l l o o n f o r h e r . B u t t h o s e w e r e

some o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t y o u remember a b o u t t h o s e t i m e s .

I t g o t ' v e r y d i f f i c u l t a n d a l o n g t o w a r d , t h e e n d o f a y e a r

a n d h a l f , I was g e t t i n g p r e t t y t i r e d o f i t . My w i f e was g e t -

t i n g t i r e d o f i t a n d I k e p t t e l l i n g h e r t h a t " P a p p y " h a d

p r o m i s e d me t h a t when t h e p r o g ram was o v e r I c o u l d s t a y home

f o r a w h i l e a n d w o r k a r o u n d home a n d n o t t r a v e l . W e l l , t h a t

d i d n ' t l a s t v e r y l o n g e i t h e r . I was w r i t i n g my s y n o p s i s o r my

r e c a p i t u l a t i o n o f t h e w h o l e p r o g r a m , a l l t h e s a m p l e s a n d t h e

f i n d i n g s a n d e v e r y t h i n g a n d I g o t a c a l l f r o m Pappy C r a m e r

t h a t A. Dewey L e w i s , A d m i r a l Dewey L e w i s , was down i n n o r t h -

w e s t A r k a n s a s r e a d y t o c l o s e o u t some d r u g s t o r e i n v e s t i g a t i o n s

t h a t h e was m a k i n g . I was t o go down t h e r e a n d h e l p h i m f o r a

week and a h a l f o r t w o weeks t o c l o s e t h o s e o u t . So I d i d

t h a t . I c a n e b a c k home, I t h i n k I g o t b a c k on Wednesday o r

s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t , a n d on F r i d a y I was t o l d t h a t I h a d t o go

t o K a n s a s C i t y . I n t h e m e a n t i m e t h e r e h a d b e e n t h e b i g f l o o d

o u t t h e r e a n d I was t o go o u t t h e r e a n d w o r k f o r a m o n t h t o

s i x weeks , t o h e l p t h e m c l e a n up t h a t . W e l l , t h a t was t h e d a y

t h a t I a c t u a l l y g o t up a n d w a l k e d o u t o f t h e o f f i c e a n d w e n t

home i n m i d - d a y . I h a d h a d i t a n d i t w o u l d n ' t o f t a k e n v e r y

much f o r me t o t e l l t h e m t o t a k e t h i s j o b and s h o v e i t . I h a d

h a d i t w i t h t h i s ' k ' i n d o f s t u f f . B u t I c a l m e d down, c o a l e d

down, a n d Sunday e v e n i n g I w e n t t o Kansas C i t y . I d i d my w o r k

o u t t h e r e .

L o f s v o l d : T h a t was one o f o u r l a r g e s t f l o o d o p e r a t i o n s ,

I b e l i e v e .

H i l l : I w o u l d s a y i t was. I know i t b e i n g a m a j o r g r a i n

p o i n t o u t t h e r e , m o s t o f t h e b i g g r a i n e l e v a t o r s w e r e v e r y

s e v e r e l y damaged. R a i l r o a d y a r d s w e r e c o m p l e t e l y submerged .

T h e r e w e r e f r e i g h t c a r l o a d s o f f o o d s t u f f s t h a t w e n t u n d e r .

Warehouses down i n t h e i n d u s t r i a l d i s t r i c t w e r e a t r e m e n d o u s

mess. The damage w e n t c l e a r o u t a c r o s s t h e s t a t e o f K a n s a s .

L o f s v o l d : I t h i n k t h a t y e a r t h e y d r e w i n s p e c t o r s f r o m a l m o s t

e v e r y w h e r e . I was i n New Y o r k t h e n a n d we s e n t i n s p e c t o r s

f r o m New Y o r k t o w o r k t h e r e .

H i l l : Yes, I know t h e r e w e r e B w h o l e bunch ~f u s who came i n

t h e r e f r o m a l l o v e r t h e c o u n t r y . I was t r y i n g t o t h i n k , t h e r e

was a f e l l o w f r o m B u f f a l o , a B y r o n C a m p b e l l who I b u d d i e d

a r o u n d w i t h . H e r b A y r e s was t h e r e f r o m , h e m i g h t o f b e e n f r o m

o u t h e r e i n t h e w e s t c o a s t a t t h a t t i m e . C a r l B a u e r l e n was

t h e r e , H a r o l d S o u t h v o r t h was t h e r e , t h e y w e r e h e r e f r o m e v e r y -

p l a c e . B i l l P r i l l m a y e r , a l l o f t h a t o l d gang.

F o l l o w i n g t h e f l o u r m i l l s t i n t i n S t . L o u i s , I d i d a l o t

o f t h e u n d e r c o v e r d r u g s t o r e w o r k , d r u g d i s t r i b u t i o n w o r k .

F o r some r e a s o n , d r u g g i s t s w o u l d s e l l s t u f f t o me. I d o n ' t

know why, I n e v e r p a r t i c u l a r l y l i k e d t h e j o b . I was a l w a y s

n e r v o u s a b o u t i t . B u t t h e y w o u l d s e l l t o me. I know I ' v e

had , on o c c a s i o n s , t h e r e w o u l d b e t w o o f u s i n a s t o r e . I

remember one t i m e R o s c o e J o r d a n a n d I w e r e g o i n g i n t o make

some f i n a l b u y s a t a d r u g s t o r e . R o s c o e w e n t i n f i r s t a n d

a s k e d f o r b e n z e d r i n e t a b l e t s , a n d I w a l k e d i n a v e r y f e w

s e c o n d s a f t e r h e d i d a n d was s t a n d i n g r i g h t b e s i d e o f h i m .

The man g a v e R o s c o e a l o n g l e c t u r e a b o u t t a k i n g b e n z e d r i n e

t a b l e t s a n d how h e c o u l d n ' t s e l l them. He t u r n e d a r o u n d t o me.

a n d I a s k e d f o r t h e same t h i n g a n d h e s o l d t h e m t o me. I

d o n ' t know why, b u t t h i s h a p p e n e d on a number o f o c c a s i o n s .

They w o u l d s t a n d t h e r e a n d g i v e one f e l l o w a l e c t u r e a n d I ' d

a s k f o r t h e same t h i n g s t a n d i n g r i g h t b e s i d e h i m a n d h e ' d s e l l

t h e m t o me. I d o n ' t know, maybe I h a d a d i s h o n e s t f a c e o r

s o m e t h i n g , maybe I l o o k e d l i k e a p i l l h e a d o r s o m e t h i n g .

Anyway I was a b l e t o d o a l o t o f t h a t s t u f f .

When we g o t i n t o t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n s o f t h e a m p h e t a m i n e s

a t t h e t r u c k s t o p s , I was t a p p e d t o do t h a t . I f e l l i n t o t h a t

one, k i n d o f a s a s i d e l i g h t . I was n o t t h e one t h a t was

c h o s e n t o go t o t h e s c h o o l t o t e a c h t h e m a l l t h e t r u c k d r i v e r s

l i n g o and s u c h a s t h a t . B u t t h e f e l l o w t h a t d i d go f r o m S t .

L o u i s , I w o r k e d q u i t e a l o t w i t h h im. We w e r e on a r o a d t r i p

down t h r o u g h M i s s o u r i and j u s t as we w e r e l e a v i n g , Leo t o l d u s

t h a t we s h o u l d c h e c k i n w i t h an F.B.I. man who had some l e a d s

on a d r u g s t o r e , o r a p i l l o p e r a t i o n down i n t h a t a r e a . So we

c h e c k e d i t o u t a n d s t a r t e d d o i n g t h e w o r k t h e n . We mad~e many

b u y s , d r i v i n g t h e o l d g o v e r n m e n t c a r . It h a d t h e name p r i n t e d

on t h e s i d e o f i t a n d e v e r y t h i n g l i k e t h a t . We w e r e v e 8 r y

b r a s h a n d b r a z e n and we made a number o f b u y s t h a t way. I d i d

an a w f u l l o t o f t h a t work . We r e n t e d a " B o b - T a i l " t r a c t o r t o

make o u r r o u n d s i n . W h i l e mos t o f t h e f i e l d was i n v e s t i g a t i n g

s o u r c e s o f t h e d r u g s on l e a d s , we w e r e m a k i n g " b u y s " . We

d e v e l o p e d c a s e s a g a i n s t 1 3 t r u c k s t o p s , a n i g h t c l u b , anld t h r e e

r e t a i l d r u g s t o r e s i n t h r e e weeks. An A r k a n s a s S t a t e i n s p e c -

t o r who w o r k e d w i t h u s , C r e o J o n e s , made a c a s e a q a i n s t a

v e t e r i n a r i a n who was s u p p l y i n g t o t r u c k s t o p s .

The o t h e r p a r t s o f my w o r k i n S t . L o u i s , r e v o l v e d

p r i m a r i l y i n t h e a r e a o f s a n i t a t i o n i n f o o d a r e a . I d e u e l o p e d

many a c t i o n s i n t h a t p a r t i c u l a r p r o g r a m . I q u e s s , I mqy be

t h e o n l y one t h a t i s s t i l l i n t h e a g e n c y , t h a t a c t u a l l y s a t

t h r o u g h t h e B e r g e r t r i a l i n S t . L o u i s . I w a s n ' t a r e a l p a r t

o f t h e c a s e , b u t i n t h o s e d a y s , when we h a d a t r i a l l i k e t h a t ,

a l l t h e i n s p e c t o r s a n d t h e c h e m i s t s t h a t c o u l d , w o u l d go s i t

t h r o u g h i t f o r e x p e r i e n c e a n d t r a i n i n g on w h a t w e n t on.

L o f s v o l d : T h a t was A r c h i e B e r g e r t h e p i c k l e m a n u f a c t u r e r ?

H i l l : A r c h i e B e r g e r , t h e p i c k l e man.

L o v s v o l d : Tha t c o n t r o l l e d t h e p i g e o n s by f i r i n g a s h o t g u n a t

them i n s i d e t h e p l a n t ? .

H i l l : Oh yes . When he a t t e m p t e d t o c o n t r o l them. I d i d make

t h e f o l l o w - u p i n s p e c t i o n a f t e r h i s p r o s e c u t i o n and he was

s t i l l bad. I c o u l d n ' t c o n v i n c e Roy t h a t we s h o u l d do a n y t h i n g

abou t i t . Bu t t h a t l e d t o a n o t h e r t h i n g . I i n s p e c t e d a num-

b e r o f o t h e r p i c k l e p l a n t s t h e r e i n t h e a r e a and we g o t ac -

t i o n s a g a i n s t them, t o o . So t h a t we g o t some c l e a n - u p of t h e

p i c k l e i n d u s t r y back t h e r e .

One t i m e I g o t an i n s p e c t i o n o f a f i r m t h a t made j e l l i e s

and jams and a l l k i n d s o f p r o d u c t s l i k e t h a t , t h e r e a t S t .

L o u i s . They a l s o made a p p l e b u t t e r . They used d r i e d a p p l e s

and wou ld r e h y d r a t e them and t h e n r u n them t h r o u g h a p u l p e r

t h a t t o o k a l l t h e p u l p , seeds and t h e p e e l s and t h e c o r e s were

l e f t beh ind . I l o o k e d a t t h i s equ ipmen t t h a t he had t h a t

w o u l d remove t h e p e e l s and t h e sgeds. He h a d n ' t done a v e r y

good j o b o f c l e a n i n g i t o u t a f t e r h e ' d used i t t h e day b e f o r e .

The re were a l o t o f a p p l e seeds and p e e l s and such d e b r i s

s t u c k on t h e i n s i d e o f i t . There were a l s o some o t h e r l i t t l e

t h i n g s i n t h e r e . These were l o n g b l a c k o b l o n g shaped o b j e c t s

i n among t h e a p p l e seeds, wh i ch I saw and c o l l e c t e d a few o f

them, j u s t f o r t h e heck o f i t t o see what happened. Sure

enough he s t a r t e d t o mak ing h i s n e x t b a t c h o f a p p l e b u t t e r and

he d i d n ' t c l e a n i t ou t . He j u s t r a n i t r i g h t on t h r o u g h and

y o u know w h a t we f o u n d i n t h e a p p l e b u t t e r . It was l o a d e d

w i t h r o d e n t h a i r s . It was a f i l t h y o p e r a t i o n ; h o r r i b l e . We

f o u n d , j u s t o n v i s u a l e x a m i n a t i o n , i n some l i g h t c o l o r e d

o r e s e r v e s . . . y o u h o l d up t h e j a r a n d t u r n i t a r o u n d and y o u s e e

r o a c h e g s and t h i n g s l i k e t h a t . T h e s e w e r e g r o s s t h i n g s . O f

c o u r s e t h i s was b a c k i n t h e d a r k ages o f s a n i t a t i o n , n o t

n e a r 1 y l i k e i t i s t o d a y . He a l s o made a b a r b e q u e sauce . He

h a d t h s p i c e s a l r e a d y mea s u r e d o u t i n p a p e r b a g s and t h e y

l o o k e d l i k e somebody h a d h i t t h e m wi t h a b l a s t o f a s h o t g u n ;

h o l e s i n t h e m j u s t w o r k i n g a l i v e w i t h b e e t l e s . He j u s t dumped

i t i n t h e t o m a t o s a u c e a n d m i x e d i t up a n d p u t i t i n t h e b o t -

t l e s . So t h o s e w e r e some r e a l r a u n c h y , f i l t h y o p e r a t i ~ n days .

I g o t my e a r l y t r a i n i n g i n s a n i t a t i o n f r o m H e n r y H r a d i l .

H e n r y was a c h a r a c t e r . H e ' d b e e n a m e a t i n s p e c t o r b e f i o r e h e

became t o f o o d and d r u g d u r i n g t h e war y e a r s . He t o o k me o u t

a n d g a v e me some o f my v e r y e a r l y t r a i n i n g i n s p e c t i n g i n

b a k e r i e s . I know t h e f i r s t y e a r I was t h e r e , i t was m~aybe6

m o n t h s , I had an a s s i g n m e n t t o make a b a k e r y and he h a d o n e

a l s o . He s a i d , "come on w e ' l l go t o g e t h e r . W e ' l l go t o m i n e

t h i s m o r n i n g , b u t we w o n ' t f i n d a n y t h i n g i n my p l a c e , and t h e n

I J e ' l l go t o yours^" T b e one I had h a d n ' t b e t s itsspectied yet.

I t was g o i n g t o b e a new p l a n t . W e l l s u r e enough , h i s b a k e r y

d i d n ' t d o a n y i n t e r - s t a t e b u s i n e s s , t h e y s o l d e v e r y t h i n g r i g h t .

t h e r e i n S t . L o u i s . We w e n t t o m i n e . It was a b r a n d new

c o o k i e and c r a c k e r b a k e r y , C a r r B i s c u i t , o u t on S o u t h K i n g ' s

H i g h w a y . T h e y ' d o n l y b e e n i n b u s i n e s s a b o u t 6 m o n t h s . They

h a d b u i l t a new p l a n t , e s p e c i a l l y f o r t h i s t y p e o f o p e r a t i o n .

They w o u l d p o u r i n t h e f l o u r a t one end o f t h e p l a n t and i t

came o u t p a c k a g e d c o o k i e s a t t h e o t h e r end ; a b e a u t i f u l o p e r -

a t i o n . As we w e r e i n t h e m a n a g e r ' s o f f i c e a r e a , a b e a u t i f u l l y

c a r p e t e d o f f i c e , e v e r y t h i n g was j u s t s p i c a n d span. As we

o p e n e d t h e d o o r t o go i n t o t h e p l a n t , i t was l i k e g o i n g i n t o

a n o t h e r w o r l d . The f l o o r s a l o n g t h e l i n e s w e r e c l o s e t o b e i n g

k n e e deep i n c r a c k e r s t h a t h a d f a l l e n o f f t h e b e l t s a n d t h e y ' d

n e v e r c l e a n e d t h e m up. The w o r k e r s h a d p a t h s t h r o u g h t h i s

s t u f f . W e l l , y o u know w h a t k i n d o f a s i t u a t i o n y o u w o u l d

h a v e . T h i s was i n A u g u s t , I b e l i e v e , i n S t . L o u i s . I t was

one o f t h e m o s t h o r r i b l e i n f e s t a t i o n s t h a t y o u c a n i m a g i n e . I

s p e n t a b o u t a week i n t h a t p l a n t , c o l l e c t i n g s a m p l e s a n d g e t -

t i n g some o f t h e o t h e r s t o come o u t and t a k e some p i c t u r e s f o r

me, b e c a u s e I w o u l d n ' t a t t e m p t t o u s e a c a m e r a y e t . We h a d ' a

number o f p e c u l i a r t h i n g s t h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e .

We f o u n d t h e y ' d m i x u p c o o k i e dough a n d i f t h e y d i d n ' t

u s e i t a l l , t h e y ' d l e a v e i t i n t h e t r o u g h and t h e y w o u l d p u s h

i t b a c k i n t h e r e f r i g e r a t o r room u n t i l t h e y g o t r e a d y t o r u n

t ha t .batch o f cookies again, O l d dougb, some o f i t was m o l d y .

I remember one day a t l u n c h t i m e t h e y h a d a b i g g l o b o f d o u g h

o u t o n t h e t a b l e , a n d t h e w h i s t l e b l e w f o r l u n c h . The w o r k e r s

g o t o u t t h e i r b r o w n b a g l u n c h e s a n d t h e y u s e d t h e d o u g h f o r a

s o f a . I t was n i c e and s o f t . We h a d g o o d p i c t u r e s . A t t h e

e n d o f l u n c h , y o u c o u l d s e e t h e i r b u t t p r i n t s i n t h i s dough.

They made c r a c k e r s , u s e d t o make c r a c k e r m e a l . The

c r a c k e r s f e l l t h r o u g h a h o l e i n t h e f l o o r , down t o a l o w e r

l e v e l . The guy s t a n d i n g r i g h t i n t h e m i d d l e , he was k n e e deep

i n c r a c k e r s , s h o v e l i n g j u s t as h a r d as h e c o u l d t o s h o v e l t h e

c r a c k e r s o v e r i n t h e c o r n e r s o t h a t t h e y w o u l d n ' t a l l p i l e up

i n one s p o t i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e room. They w e r e w a l k i n g

a r o u n d i n e v e r y d a y s t r e e t shoes i n t h o s e c r a c k e r s .

We h a d a t r e m e n d o u s s e i z u r e o f c h o c o l a t e , t h e b i g 1 0

p o u n d b a r s o f c h o c o l a t e c o a t i n g . I t was an a w f u l j o b t r y i n g

t o e x a m i n e t h i s c h o c o l a t e b u t i t was i n f e s t e d . H e n r y a n d I

w o u l d u n w r a p one o f t h o s e b l o c k s a n d t h e n c o u n t t h e i n s e c t s

t h a t we saw and e s t i m a t e t h e amount o f s u r f a c e t h a t was c o v -

e r e d w i t h w e b b i n g o r f r a s s o r t u n n e l i n g . I n A u g u s t , i n S t .

L o u i s , y o u ' d p i c k up t h e b a r and y o u ' d h a v e t o c o u n t r e a l

q u i c k b e c a u s e t h e e x t r a h e a t f r o m y o u r h a n d s w o u l d m e l t t h e

b a r , and i t w o u l d s l i d e , y o u a b s o l u t e l y c o u l d n ' t h o l d o n t o i t ,

i t w o u l d s l i d e r i g h t t h r o u g h y o u r h a n d s . T h a t was one f i l t h y

o p e r a t i o n . The f i r m ' s s a l e s s l o g a n was " C o o k i e s by C a r r a r e

B e t t e r b y F a r . " H e n r y p r o m p t l y c o i n e d t h e p h r a s e . " C o o k i e s

b y C a r r a r e b u g g i e r by f a r , " and t h e y were . They were h i g h l y

i n f e s t e d . T h e r e ' s a l o t o f e v e n t s l i k e t h a t t h a t comes t o

m i n d . A l o t o f t h e p l a n t s l i k e t h a t w e r e v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g

t r a i n i n g f o r a y o u n g i n s p e c t o r .

As t i m e w e n t o n , I became more s u r e o f m y s e l f . One o t h e r

t h i n g , a t t h e end o f t h e w h e a t p r o g r a m , we s t a r t e d w i t h w h a t

0 we c a l l a c o m p l i a n c e p r o g r a m , t o d a y . We w e r e g o i n g t o s t a r t

t a k i n g some a c t i o n s . I m m e d i a t e l y when t h e i n f o r m a t i o n was

a n n o u n c e d t o t h e p u b l i c , we g o t c a l l s f r o m t h e i n d u s t r y f o r

somebody t o come a n d t a l k t o t h e m a n d e x p l a i n w h a t t h i s

p r o g r a m was a b o u t . Roy g a v e t h e a s s i g n m e n t o r i g i n a l l y t o

H i l d i n g O l s o n . He was t h e Food a n d D r u g O f f i c e r a t t h e t i m e ,

t o w r i t e t h e speech . H i l d i n g a n d I c o l l a b o r a t e d . I g a v e h i m

t h e t e c h n i c a l i n f o r m a t i o n a n d t h e e x p l a n a t i o n o f t h e t e c h n i c a l

a s p e c t s o f t h e p r o g r a m , a n d H i l d i n g d i d t h e l e g a l p a r t o f i t .

We p r e p a r e d a s p e e c h a n d I w e n t w i t h h i m t h e n t o g i v e t h e

f i r s t one. Roy s a i d , "Iw a n t y o u t o go w i t h h i m a n d l i s t e n t o

t h e f i r s t .one a n d t h e n i f we g e t anymore , t h e n y o u ' r e gonna d o

i t . " W i t h H i l d i n g , I am a f l e d g l i n g . I h a d n ' t b e e n i n b u t

a b o u t t h r e e y e a r s , a n d h e r e I ' m gonna b e t h e spokesman f o r t h e

D i s t r i c t , o u t t h e r e b e f o r e t h e i n d u s t r y .

W e l l , t h e f i r s t t h i n g t h a t came u p a f t e r t h a t , I g u e s s ,

was we g o t a r e q u e s t f r o m t h e g r a i n d e a l e r s i n I l l i n o i s . T h e y

w e r e p u t t i n g o n f o u r o f t h e s e s e m i n a r s i n o n e week, i n d i f f e r -

e n t p l a c e s , a d i f f e r e n t t o w n e a c h day . So I w e n t t o r e p r e s e n t

t h e D i s t r i c t a n d I was t h e l e a d o f f s p e a k e r . I h a d n ' t e v e n

seer, the g r o g r a n . A34 I k w , Iw a s t o go aad g i v e t h i s

s p e e c h , w h i c h I d i d . Then t h e y s t a r t e d a s k i n g me q u e s t i o n s

a n d I a n s w e r e d t h e q u e s t i o n s . The u p s h o t was, I was s t a n d i n g

up t h e r e m o s t o f t h e m o r n i n g . They j u s t k e p t a s k i n g q u e s t i o n s

a n d I k e p t a n s w e r i n g them. F i n a l l y t h e y l e t me s i t down a n d

t h e y i n t r o d u c e d t h e n e x t s p e a k e r .

It t u r n e d o u t h e was f r o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l t u r e

and he was s u p p o s e d t o t a l k a b o u t r o d e n t s . He g o t up a n d

s a i d , " T h e r e ' s n o t h i n g e l s e f o r me t o say. A l l t h e q u e s t i o n s

h a v e been a n s w e r e d and e v e r y t h i n g t h a t I was g o i n g t o say has

a l r e a d y been s a i d . "

The n e x t guy g e t s up. H e ' s f r o m P u r d u e U n i v e r s i t y . He

was s u p p o s e d t o t a l k a b o u t i n s e c t s , and i n s e c t i n f e s t a t i o n .

h a d t a k e n a1 1 h i s t h u n d e r , t o o .

B u t t h e r e s t o f t h e s e m i n a r s , when t h e y ' d a s k e d t h o s e

q u e s t i o n s , I w o u l d d e f e r t o a n s w e r them. A f t e r t h a t e x p e r i -

e n c e , I l e a r n e d b y f i n d i n g o u t w h a t was on t h e p r o g r a m , who

e l s e i s on t h e p r o g r a m a n d s u c h a n d who was g o i n g t o be s p e a k -

i n q on t h o s e o t h e r t o p i c s .

A g a i n I t h o u g h t t h a t Roy was b e i n g mean t o me b u t I g u e s s

h e was j u s t p u t t i n g me t o t h e t e s t t o see i f I c o u l d d o i t and

i t w o r k e d .

T h e r e was s o m e t h i n g e l s e t h a t p o p p e d i n my m i n d a w h i l e

ago. One t i m e e a r l y i n my c a r e e r , I was t e s t i f y i n g on a d r u g

c a s e , an OTC d r u g s t o r e c a s e . Joe G e b h a r t was t h e l e a d ' i nspec -

t o r on i t . I was s e n t i n t o t h e s t o r e t o s e e i f I c o u l d make

b u y s , b e i n g t h e s e c o n d i n s p e c t o r . We a l w a y s w a n t e d t w o t o

make b u y s . I wen t i n a n d a s k e d f o r a d r u g b y name, t h e d r u g -

g i s t s o l d i t t o me. I w e n t b a c k o u t , and l a t e r w e n t t h r o u g h

t h i s same p r o c e d u r e t w o o r t h r e e t i m e s . A t t r i a l t h e y p l e d

n o t g u i l t y . When t h e c a s e came t o t r i a l , I was c a l l e d i n as

I

t h e f i r s t g o v e r n m e n t w i t n e s s . W e l l , f i r s t t h e p o l i c e m a n came

i n t h a t t e s t i f i e d t o t h e b a c k g r o u n d a n d t h e c o m p l a i n t s t h e y

h a d on t h i s s t o r e . I was t h e f i r s t one f r o m F o o d and D r u g t o

t e s t i f y . 1 g a v e my d i r e c t t e s t i m o n y , d e s c r i b i n g a c t u a l l y w h a t

I had done. They t u r n e d i t o v e r t o t h e d e f e n s e a t t o r n e y , who

l a t e r became somewhat n o t o r i o u s . He was r e p o r t e d t o b e t h e

c o u n s e l f o r some o f t h e M a f i a g r o u p s . He was w r i t t e n up i n

L i f e M a g a z i n e one t f m e w i t h a l l t h e r e s t o f t h e r a c k e t e e r s . He

s t a r t e d i n o n me. F i r s t t h i n g he a s k e d me, " D i d I i d e n t i f y

m y s e l f , when I w e n t i n t o t h e s t o r e , as a Food a n d D r u g I n s p e c -

t o r . " I s a i d , "No." " D i d y o u show t h e m y o u r b a d g e ? " "No,"

and h e p u r s u e d t h a t l i n e o f q u e s t i o n i n g f o r a w h i l e and ,

" D i d n ' t we o r d i n a r i l y d o t h a t , t h a t i s , i d e n t i f y o u r s e l v e s

when we w e r e m a k i n g an i n s p e c t i o n o r an i n v e s t i g a t i o n ? " "Yes."

" B u t y o u d i d n ' t do i t h e r e ? "No, I d i d n ' t d o i t h e r e . " What

he was d o i n g was l e a d i n g u p t o p l e a d i n g e n t r a p m e n t . T h a t ' s

w h a t h e came o u t w i t h i t t h e n t o t h e j u d g e and t o l d h i m t h a t

h i s c l i e n t h a d been e n t r a p p e d by me b e c a u s e I h a d i n t e n t i o n -

a l l y gone i n t h e r e t o b u y a d r u g t h a t I knew was il l e g a l f o r

t h e d r u g g i s t t o s e l l and a w h o l e b u n c h o f s t u f f lik e t h a t . The

o l d J u d g e , J u d g e Moore , G e o r g e Moore , h e h a d a f u l 1 h e a d o f

w h i t e h a i r and when he s a t up on t h a t h i g h b e n c h w i t h t h a t

b l a c k r o b e on a n d l o o k e d down a t y o u , i t ' s l i k e God A l m i g h t y

h i m s e l f was l o o k i n g down on y o u . He k i n d o f h u n c h e d h i m s e l f

u p on h i s c h a i r and s a i d , " M r . S c h e n k e r , d o y o u mean t o t e l l

me t h a t if a man w a l k s i n o f f o f t h e s t r e e t , a s k s f o r a p r o -

d u c t b y name a n d i s S o l d t h a t p r o d u c t , t h a t makes i t e n t r a p -

m e n t ? " M r . S c h e n k e r s a i d , "Yes , I do." " T h i s c o u r t doles n o t

f e e l so , p r o c e e d . " And t h a t e n d e d t h e e n t r a p m e n t p l e a r i g h t

t h e r e . M r . S c h e n k e r , h e d e f e n d e d t h r e e c a s e s t h a t I r e c a l l

a n d l o s t a l l t h r e e o f t h e m a n d w e n t o u t o f Food a n d Drulg b u s i -

n e s s a n d w e n t on t o o t h e r t h i n g s . A n o t h e r l a w f i r m t o o ~ k o v e r

a n d t h e y d i d t h e same t h i n g .

The same j u d g e g o t on me one day. H e n r y H r a d i l h a ~ d made

i n s p e c t i o n s o f some b o t t l i n g p l a n t s , b e v e r a g e p l a n t s anld

f o u n d t h e m b a d a n d we p r o s e c u t e d them. They a l l came i n t o b e

h e a r d , one e a c h day , t h r e e d a y s i n a row. The j u d g e o r d e r e d

t h e y a l l b e r e i n s p e c t e d b e f o r e h e ' d p a s s s e n t e n c e . T h a t ' s o n e

t h i n g J u d g e M o o r e w o u l d do. He a l w a y s w a n t e d a r e i n s p e c t i o n

b e f o r e h e ' d p a s s s e n t e n c e . W e l l , i t was o b v i o u s t h a t i f we

w e n t o u t one a t a t i m e , t h e . r e l s g o i n g t o be some a d v a n t a g e ; t o

t h e l a s t one on t h e l i s t . So Roy, o u r b o s s , d e c i d e d t h a t we

w o u l d i n s p e c t a l l t h r e e o f t h e m s i m u l t a n e o u s l y . H e n r y H r a d i l

was a s s i g n e d o n e o f them, I was a s s i g n e d o n e o f t h e m a n d

W i l l i e W a l k e r , I b e l i e v e , was a s s i g n e d t h e t h i r d one. We a l l

l e f t t h e o f f i c e a t t h e same t i m e a n d w e n t t o e a c h o f t h e t h r e e

b e v e r a g e p l a ' n t s t o i n s p e c t t h e m a l l t h e same day . The o n e I

d r e w was s t i l l bad. I n f a c t I f o u n d enough i n i t t o s u s t a i n

t h e p r o s e c u t i o n , on my f i n d i n g s . We w e n t b a c k i n t o c o u r t a n d

t h e y c a l l e d t h a t p a r t i c u l a r c a s e f i r s t . R a l p h S p i n k was o u r

Food a n d D r u g O f f i c e r a t t h a t t i m e a n d t h e j u d g e a s k e d f o r

somebody f r o m t h e a g e n c y t h a t knew s o m e t h i n g a b o u t t h e c a s e t o

e x p l a i n i t . R a l p h g e t s u p a n d goes down a n d s t a r t s t o e x -

p l a i n i n g t h e c a s e t o t h e j u d g e . J u d g e Moore l o o k e d a t h i m a n d

s a i d , " M r . S p i n k , d i d y o u make t h i s i n s p e c t i o n ? " He s a i d ,

"No, he d i d n ' t make t h e i n s p e c t i o n , b u t h e was t e s t i f y i n g f r o m

t h e r e c o r d . " The j u d g e s a i d h e w a n t e d t o t a l k t o someone who

r e a l l y knew w h a t t h e c a s e was a l l a b o u t . So, Roy g e t s u p a n d

g o e s down, a n d he s t a r t e d i n . He g o t a s k e d t h e same q u e s -

t i o n s , " D i d y o u make t h i s i n s p e c t i o n , M r . P r u i t t ? " "No, h e

d i d n ' t " and t h e j u d g e g o t a l i t t l e b i t m i f f e d t h e n . He s a i d ,

"He w a n t e d t o t a l k t o t h e i n s p e c t o r w h o ' s b e e n o u t t h e r e . " So

I g e t u p a n d I q o down t h e r e a n d I s t a r t t a l k i n g t o h im, t e l l -

i n g h i m , a n d t h e j u d g e s t o p p e d me r i g h t i n t h e m i d d l e o f my

comments a n d he s a i d , " Y o u n g man, how many i n s p e c t i o n s h a v e

y o u made?" I was m u l l i n g t h a t o v G r i n my m i n d , d o e s h e mean

t o t a l i n s p e c t i o n s I made o r does h e mean i n s p e c t i o n s o f b e v e r -

age p l a n t s o r j u s t w h a t d o e s he mean. How am I gonna a n s w e r

t h i s q u e s t i o n . Then he q u a l i f i e d i t a n d s p e c i f i e d i t , "How

many b e v e r a g e p l a n t s h a v e y o u i n s p e c t e d ? " I c o u n t e d , "Two."

T h a t made t h e j u d g e mad. He c o n s i d e r e d 1 was i n e x p e r i e n c e d

a n d d i d n ' t know w h a t I was d o i n g . And he chewed Roy u p a n d

down f o r s e n d i n g an i n e x p e r i e n c e d i n s p e c t o r o u t t o do t h i s j o b

and he s t o p p e d and h e s a i d , "Iw a n t an e x p e r i e n c e d i n s p e c t o r

t o make t h e s e . " So, H e n r y h a d t o go b a c k o u t a n d do t h e o t h e r

t w o t h e n , t o s a t i s f y t h e j u d g e .

L a t e r on I made a n o t h e r i n s p e c t i o n a n d i t was p r o s e c u t e d

a n d I was c a l ed upon b e f o r e t h e same j u d g e t o e x p l a i n w h a t I

f o u n d . W e l l , I was r e a d y f o r h i m t h a t t i m e . I h a d d o n e my

homework. Su e e n o u g h , I s t a r t e d t o e x p l a i n i n g w h a t I ' d f o u n d

i n t h e i n s p e c t i o n . T h i s happened t o b e a c e r e a l p l a n t . The

o l d j u d g e a s k e d me a g a i n , "How many i n s p e c t i o n s h a v e y o u made

o f c e r e a l p l a n t s ? " I g a v e an a n s w e r o f t h r e e h u n d r e d and

s e v e n t y f i v e . I t was i n s p e c t i n g a l l t h a t w h e a t , t h e f l o u r

m i l l s a n d t h e b a k e r i e s t h a t s t o p p e d t h e q u e s t i o n i n g . He

a c c e p t e d my w o r d on t h a t one.

I h a d a n o t h e r one t h a t I i n s p e c t e d down i n A r k a n s a s one

t i m e , a c a n d y p l a n t . T h i s was i n e a r l y w i n t e r a n d t h e c a n d y

p l a n t was o u t i n t h e c o u n t r y . I t was s e v e r a l m i l e s o u t o f

L i t t l e Rock. I t was a r e a l r a u n c h y p l a c e . The g u y t h e r e , k e p t

t r y i n g t o g i v e me a b o x o f c a n d y t o t a k e home t o my k i d s . I

k e p t t e l l i n g h i m , "No, I w i l l n o t t a k e any c a n d y . " He k e p t i t

up, u n t i l I f i n a l l y s a i d , " W e l l l o o k , t h e o n l y way I'll t a k e a

b o x o f c a n d y o u t o f h e r e i s t o s e a l i t w i t h my o f f i c i a l s e a l

a n d t u r n i t i n t o t h e l a b o r a t o r y f o r a n a l y s i s . " He s a i d # , "I

d o n ' t w a n t t h a t . " I s a i d , "Okay, t h e n t h e c a s e i s c l o s ~ e d ,

f o r g e t i t . " T h i s p l a c e was ovemun w i t h r o d e n t s , a n d t l h e y h a d

i n s e c t i n f e s t a t i o n .

A l s o t h e y h a d a n o t h e r p r a c t i c e w h i c h was c e r t a i n l y n o t

a c c e p t a b l e . They h a d a l o t o f f o r e i g n l a b o r i n t h e p l a ~ n t and

a p p a r e n t l y , t h e s t o r y was anyway, I w e n t t o t h e r e s t r o o l m , i n t o

t h e r e s t r o o m s t o make t h e i n s p e c t i o n i n t h e r e . T h e r e was a

l a r g e c a r d b o a r d b o x s i t t i n g i n t h e c o r n e r . I t l o o k e d l i k e a

K o t e x b o x o r s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t . I t was o v e r f l o w i n g w i t h

u s e d t o i l e t p a p e r . The d o o r o f t h e r e s t r o o m o p e n e d d i r e c t l y

i n t o t h e p l a n t , w h i c h s h o u l d n ' t b e e i t h e r . I a s k e d t h e m w h a t

was t h i s t h i n g h e r e , t h i s u s e d t o i l e t p a p e r i n t h i s b o x a n d

a l l o v e r t h e f l o o r . T h e y t o . l d me t h a t t h e p e o p l e t h e r e w e r e

n o t a c c u s t o m e d t o f l u s h t o i l e t s a n d t h e y r e f u s e d t o p u t t h e

p a p e r i n and f l u s h t h e t o i l e t . So t h e y p u t t h i s b i g b o x i n

t h e c o r n e r a n d t h a t was w h a t t h e y used . I w e n t o n a n d made

t h e r e s t o f my i n s p e c t i o n a n d d u l y r e p o r t e d a l l o f t h e c o n d i -

t i o n s t h a t I f o u n d . We c o l l e c t e d s a m p l e s o f t h e p r o d u c t a n d

f o u n d t h a t i t was g r o s s l y c o n t a m i n a t e d w i t h i n s e c t s . I b e -

l i e v e i t was Ben M e l v i n who h a d b e e n a f o r m e r i n s p e c t o r , was

t h e c o n s u l t a n t f o r t h e f i r m . He t r i e d t o f i n d o u t why i t was

s o h e a v i l y c o n t a m i n a t e d . T h i s was a h a r d c a n d y l i k e p e p p e r -

m i n t s t i c k s . We w e r e f i n d i n g w h o l e i n s e c t s i n t h e c a n d y , a n d

I h a d n ' t s e e n a n y t h i n g t h a t w o u l d c a u s e t h a t t y p e o f a p r o b -

lem. Ben made h i s own f o l l o w - u p i n s p e c t i o n t o s e e i f h e c o u l d

f i n d o u t w h a t i t was a n d t h e n f i n a l l y h e t r a c e d i t down. T h e y

u s e d s t a r c h on t h e t a b l e , y o u know, t o k e e p t h e c a n d y f r o m

s t i c k i n g t o i t . One d a y a p p a r e n t l y , t h e o w n e r o f t h e p l a c e was

n o t on t h e p r e m i s e s a n d o n e o f t h e w o r k e r s w e n t t o g e t some

m o r e s t a r c h t o p u t on t h e t a b l e . O n l y t h i n g was, t h e s t a r c h

h e g o t was f r o m f l o u r t h a t h a d b e e n i n f e s t e d a n d was b e i n g

d r u g s . The i n v e s t i g a t i o n s h a d e s s e n t i a l l y b e e n c o m p l e t e d and

t h e y w e r e r e a d y f o r t h e h e a r i n g s t o b e h e l d , p r i o r t o p r o s e -

c u t i o n r e c o m m e n d a t i o n . I was t o l d t h a t o n t h e P a l m e r c a s e , I

was t o make a v e r b a t i m r e c o r d o f e v e r y t h i n g t h a t was s a i d f r o m

t h e t i m e he g o t t o my o f f i c e t o t h e t i m e he l e f t . T h e r e was

t o b e n o n e o f t h i s d i s c u s s i n g t h e m a t t e r w i t h h i m a n d t h e n

c a l l i n g t h e s e c r e t a r y a n d d i c t a t i n g t h e r e s u m e o r s t a t e m e n t .

It was t o b e v e r b a t i m . So we d i d t h a t . I t t u r n e d o u t i t was

a v e r y s i m p l e h e a r i n g t o h o l d . I e x p l a i n e d t h e l e g a l p a r t o f

i t and w h a t we w e r e t h e r e f o r a n d I t h e n w o u l d go down s a l e b y

s a l e a n d T e x ' s r e s p o n s e was u s u a l l y s o m e t h i n g t o e f f e c t , " I ' v e

b e e n r e a l b u s y h a v e n ' t I,"o r "how a b o u t t h a t " o r s o m e b h i n g

l i k e t h a t , c o m p l e t e l y n o n c o r n m i t a l . He w o u l d n ' t g i v e me a

d i r e c t a n s w e r on a n y t h i n g . He h a d s o l d a l l k i n d s o f p r e -

s c r i p t i o n d r u g s . T h e s e w e r e l e g i t i m a t e d r u g s , D i u r y l , H y d o r o -

d i u r y l , M i l t o w n , E q u a n i l , a l l k i n d s o f t h i n g s 1 i k e t h a t . H e ' d

s o l d i t t o d r u g s t o r e s a n d t o h o s p i t a l s , l i t e r a l l y t h o u s a n d s o f

them. He p a l m e d t h e m o f f . We p r o s e c u t e d b o t h Tex a n d h i s

son, B i l l , who was e n g a g e d w i t h Tex i n t h i s v e n t u r e . Tex h a d a

w h o l e s a l e d r u g b u s i n e s s . He was d o i n g t h i s o s t e n s i b l y a s

p a r t o f h i s w h o l e s a l e d r u g b u s i n e s s , b u t a c t u a l l y he was o n

t h e f r i n g e . When t h e c a s e came u p f o r h e a r i n g , t h e y b a t h

o r i g i n a l l y p l e d n o t g u i l t y . Then y o u n g B i l l d e c i d e d h e ' d

p l e a d g u i l t y . And r i g h t a t t h e l a s t m i n u t e h e t a l k e d Tex i n t o

p l e a d i n g g u i l t y a l s o . B i l l g o t p r o b a t i o n and t h e o l d man g o t

f i n e d a t h o u s a n d d o l l a r s a n d a y e a r i n j a i l . T h i s i s n o t t h e

way t o d e v e l o p e p e r s o n a l f a m i l y r e l a t i o n s h i p s .

L o f s v o l d : O f c o u r s e Tex h a d a l o n g r e c o r d o f d e a l i n g i n d a n -

g e r o u s d r u g s , and s e l l i n g t h e m w i t h o u t p r e s c r i p t i o n a n d t h i n g s

o f t h a t s o r t .

H i l l : He h a d a l o n g c o l o r f u l c a r e e r l o n g b e f o r e t h a t . T h i s

was when we f i n a l l y c a u g h t up w i t h h i m on a f e d e r a l l e v e l .

T h a t was t h e f i r s t t i m e we c a u g h t u p w i t h h im. We l a t e r g o t

h i m a g a i n f o r s e l l i n g a m p h e t a m i n e s t o t h e t r u c k d r i v e r s .

d o n ' t know who r e a l l y came o u t w i n n e r o n t h a t case. We g o t a

c o n v i c t i o n on h i m and h e was s e n t e n c e d t o p r i s o n and, d i d

s e r v e a s f a r a s I know. He s e r v e d t h r e e y e a r s i n p r i s o n o v e r

i t . I know i t was a v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g t r i a l , v e r y i n t e r e s t -

i n g i n v e s t i g a t i o n .

J o h n Rynd was o u r r e s i d e n t i n H o u s t o n a t t h e t i m e . We

g o t a t r u c k d r i v e r t h a t was b u s t e d and t h e t r u c k d r i v e r d e -

c f d e d h e w o u l d c o o p e r a t e w i t h t h e o f f i c i a l s b y s p i l l i n g w h a t

h e knew a b o u t t h e s a l e s o f a m p h e t a m i n e s and h e w o u l d a l s o h e l p

us . So we p u t h i m i n t o u c h w i t h Tex a n d h e was b u y i n g f i f t y

t h o u s a n d t a b l e t s at, a t i m e . The f i r s t b u y , Tex t o l d h i m t o

+wet hif f l a t a c o c t a i n p l a c e a 4 ko d id . JdAd t r a i l e d alocrg i n

a n o t h e r c a r , a s h e was g o i n g t o w i t n e s s i t . W e l l , J o h n 1 0 s

them. J o h n l o s t t h e m g o i n g t h r o u g h r u s h t r a f f i c i n H o u s t o n .

T h i s was l a t e i n t h e a f t e r n o o n . J o h n t h o u g h t h e b e t t e r c a l

h i s w i f e a n d l e t h e r know t h a t h e was g o i n g t o b e l a t e t h a t

I

n i g h t , s o he p u l l e d i n t o a s u p e r m a r k e t t o c a l l h i s w i f e and

w h i l e he was s t a n d i n g t h e r e w i t h a t e l e p h o n e i n h i s ha f id , h e

g l a n c e d b a c k o u t on t h e p a r k i n g l o t a n d h e r e w e r e t h e t w o

c a r s , Tex a n d t h i s o t h e r guy w i t h t h e i r t r u n k s open a n d f a c i n g

John. They w e r e p i c k i n g t h e d r u g s u p , a n d t r a n s f e r r i n g t h e m

f r o m one t r u n k t o a n o t h e r r i g h t t h e r e i n f r o n t o f h i m . J o h n

g r a b s t h e m a n a g e r o f t h e s u p e r m a r k e t a n d s a i d , " l o o k , s e e

t h o s e g u y s o u t t h e r e , w h a t a r e t h e y d o i n g ? " , a n d he g e t s an

a f f i d a v i t f r o m t h e m a n a g e r a n d t h a t was h i s s e c o n d e y e w i t n e s s

t o t h e t r a n s a c t i o n . He c o u l d n ' t h a v e p l a n n e d i t b e t t e r i f h e

t r i e d . I t w o u l d n e v e r come o u t l i k e t h a t . T h a t was a r e a l

i n t e r e s t i n g i n v e s t i g a t i o n .

We h a d Rod Munsey who was i n t h e G e n e r a l C o u n s e l ' s o f f -

i c e , come o u t . He h a d g o t t e n ac q u a i n t e d w i t h t h e U.S. A t t o r -

n e y A s s i s t a n t t h a t was h a n d l i n g t h e case . Rod and t h i s

a s s i s t a n t g o t a l o n g r e a l w e l l . They w e r e t w o f o o t - l o o s e a n d

f a n c y - f r e e b a c h e l o r s a n d t h e y w e r e p a r t y i n g t o g e t h e r a l l t h e

t i m e and s u c h , and g o t a l o n g w o n d e r f u l l y .

We b r o u g h t i n t h r e e o r f o u r o t h e r i n s p e c t o r s . E v e r y

t r a n s a c t i o n t h a t was c a r r i e d o u t - - - t h e d r u g s w o u l d b e d e l i -

v e r e d i n o n e p l a c e i n t o w n on a m o m t l t s not ice w i t h a p h o n e

c a l l "mee t me a t s u c h a n d s u c h a c o r n e r 1 5 - 2 0 m i n u t e s f r o m

now." Zoom, e v e r y b o d y w o u l d r u n o u t a n d s t a t i o n t h e m s e l v e s a t

v a n t a g e p o i n t s a r o u n d a n d w i t n e s s t h e d r u g t r a n s a c t i o n . And

t h e n t h e y ' d g e t a n o t h e r t e l e p h o n e c a l l , maybe an h o u r o r t w o

h o u r s l a t e r , "mee t me a t s u c h and s u c h a c o r n e r " and t h a t ' s

w h e r e t h e money w o u l d b e t r a n s f e r r e d . And w e ' d zoom o u t

a g a i n . E v e r y b o d y w o u l d g e t a t a v a n t a g e p o i n t w h e r e t h e y ' d

w a t c h t h e t r a n s f e r o f t h e money. So we w i t n e s s e d e v e r y

t r a n s a c t i o n l i k e t h a t .

We p u l l e d o f f a n i n s p e c t i o n r i g h t i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e

i n v e s t i q a t i o n . We w e n t i n and i n v e n t o r i e d T e x a s s t o c k o f

d r u g s . We made a n o t h e r b u y ; t h s t i m e i t was i n b o t t l e s o f a

t h o u s a n d . We w e n t b a c k t h e f o l o w i n g d a y t o T e x a s p l a c e and

f o u n d t h e s c r a p e d o f f l a b e l s i n h i s g a r b a g e c a n s f r o m t h e

b o t t l e s . t h a t h a d b e e n d e l i v e r e d We c o u l d n ' t h a v e made a

b e t t e r c a s e .

L o f s v o d: T h i s was t h e s e c o n d t ime. . .

H i l l : T h i s was t h e s e c o n d t i m e a r o u n d . Then we g o t w a r r a n t s

f o r t h i r a r r e s t s , we t o o k t h e c a s e t o t h e G r a n d J u r y , i n -

d i c t e d them, g o t w a r r a n t s f o r t h e i r a r r e s t s ; i t j u s t . a l l

c l i c k e d . The G r a n d J u r y was i n s e s s i o n , and e v e r y t h i n g j u s t

w o r k e d p e r f e c t . T i m i n g was p e r f e c t , t h e w h o l e way.

L o f s v o l d : Was t h e s o n c h a r g e d o n t h e s e c o n d c a s e a l s o ?

H i l l : Yes, h e was i n v o l v e d i n e i t h e r t a k i n g t h e money o r mak-

i n g a d e l i v e r y , o r s . o e t b i a g l i k e that , sa t h e y were i n c-

h o o t s on i t and we g o t t h e m a g a i n . We g o t t h e m c o n v i c t e d , o n

a s e c o n d o f f e n s e t h i s t i m e . The y o u n g son, h e was a r r e s t e d

and p u t i n j a i l . He was a h e a v y d r i n k e r . He t e s t i f i e d o n t h e

s t a n d t h a t he consumed a t l e a s t a f i f t h o f b o u r b o n a day. He

was q u i t e w r u n g o u t b y t h e t i m e he g o t t o t h e s t a n d , b e c a u s e

he h a d n ' t h a d a d r i n k f o r a w h i l e . He h e l p e d u s o u t , he t e s -

t i f i e d f a c t u a l l y we t h i n k . C e r t a i n l y i t b o r e o u t t h e i n f o r -

m a t i o n t h a t we had, w h i c h i m p l i c a t e d h i s f a t h e r . A g a i n h e

p l e d ; h e e n t e r e d a p l e a a n d h i s f a t h e r d i d n ' t . I know a f t e r

t h e t e s t i m o n y was a l l i n t h e c a s e , we w e r e r e s t l e s s w a Y t i n g

f o r t h e j u r y t o come b a c k i n . We w e r e p a c i n g t h e h a l l s a t t h e

c o u r t h o u s e a n d Tex w o u l d b e w a l k i n g o n e way; I ' d b e w a l k i n g

t h e o p p o s i t e way and, o f c o u r s e , w e ' d m e e t j u s t a b o u t i n f r o n t

o f t h e c o u r t room d o o r . We d i d t h i s f o r a l o n g t i m e a n d f i n -

a l l y j u s t as we me t , o l d Tex s t o p p e d a n d he s a i d , " B i l l , when

a r e y o u g o i n g t o q u i t r i d i n g my a s s ? " I r e p l i e d " T e x , when

y o u q u i t v i o l a t i n g t h e l a w , t h e n I ' ll q u i t e r i d i n g y o u . As

l o n g a s y o u a r e v i o l a t i n g t h e l a w , I ' m gonna b e r i g h t h e r e

r i d i n g you. " And we c o n t i n u e d o u r p a c i n g down t h e h a l l . As I

s a i d , he was c o n v i c t e d a n d h e was s e n t e n c e d t o 3 y e a r s i n p r i -

son on t h a t one. I t g o t h i m o u t o f c i r c u l a t i o n f o r a w h i l e .

He a c t u a l l y c a u s e d t h e d o w n f a l l o f a number o f p h a r m a -

c i s t s i n t h e a r e a t h e r e i n t h e e a r l i e r c a s e , b e c a u s e t h e

p h a r m a c i s t s w o u l d b u y t h e c o u n t e r f e i t d r u g s . One c a s e , we h a d

a professor i n t h e School of Phannaeg , was "moon1i g h t i h g " en

t h e s i d e , d i s p e n s i n g d r u g s a t o n e o f t h e s e d r u g s t o r e s . He h a d

d i s p e n s e d one o f t h e c o u n t e r f e i t s . H e a d q u a r t e r s was adaman t

o v e r p r o s e c u t i n g . I j u s t d i d n ' t t h i n k t h i s was f a i r a t a l l ,

b e c a u s e h e ' d n e v e r p u r c h a s e d t h e d r u g s a n d d i d n o t g a i n f r o m

d i s p e n s i n g them. He t o o k t h e m a n d t h e y w e r e p r o p e r l y l a b e l e d

i n t h e b o t t l e a n d e v e r y t h i n g a n d I was o p p o s e d t o p r o s e c u t i n g

h i m b u t I g o t o v e r r u l e d . The U . S . A t t o r n e y g o t t h e c a s e , a n d

w a n t e d t o know a b o u t i t . I t o l d h i m t h e e x a c t c i r c u m s t a n c e s ,

how t h i s man was i n v o l v e d a n d such . The U . S . A t t o r n e y d i s -

m i s s e d i t a n d t h e y w o u l d n ' t t a k e h i m e i t h e r , w h i c h I t h o u g h t

was o n e t i m e j u s t i c e was s e r v e d . I w o u l d n ' t m i n d p r o s e c u t i n g

a n y b o d y i f t h e y d e s e r v e d i t , b u t I d i d n ' t t h i n k t h a t man d e -

s e r v e d i t . He h a d j u s t s i m p l y f a l l e n i n t o s o m e t h i n g com-

p l e t e l y b y a c c i d e n t . H e ' d j u s t h a p p e n e d t o p i c k u p t h e

b o t t l e . He h a d n ' t p u t t h e p i l l s i n t h e b o t t l e o r a n y t h i n g

l i k e t h a t . We h a d a l o t o f a c t i o n s l i k e t h a t down i n t h e

T e x a s a r e a . I t was p r e t t y w i d e open.

O l d Tex t h o u g h , h e t o o k u s o n a f o l l o w - u p . We h e a r d t h a t

h e was s t i l l i n t h e b u s i n e s s . I s h o u l d b a c k up. We g o t h i m

c o n v i c t e d a n d h e a p p e a l e d h i s c o n v i c t i o n , a n d t h e c o n v i c t i o n

was u p h e l d . He w e n t a l l t h e way t o Supreme C o u r t w i t h i t a n d

t h e y d e n i e d h i m t h e r e a l s o . One o f t h o s e t h i n g s t h a t r e a l l y

h u r t t h e y o u n g a t t o r n e y s down i n t h e U . S . A t t o r n e y ' s o f f i c e

was h e p l e d p o v e r t y a n d g o t a c o u r t a p p o i n t e d a t t o r n e y . Then

h e w o u l d n ' t t e l l h i s a t t o r n e y , w o u l d n ' t p l a y s t r a i g h t w i t h h i m

a p p a r e n t l y e i t h e r . B u t h e ' d d r i v e u p t o t h e c o u r t h o u s e i n

h i s b i g w h i t e C a d i l l a c e v e r y day . He w o u l d go i n a n d h a v e h i s

c o u r t a p p o i n t e d a t t o r n e y t r y t o d e f e n d h i m a n d t h a t j u s t b u r n t

t h o s e a t t o r n e y s i n t h e U . S . A t t o r n e y ' s o f f i c e s o m e t h i n g a w f u l

0

down t h e r e . They w a n t e d t o go t o t h e j u d g e a n d t e l l h i m w h a t

was g o i n g on b u t t h e y w e r e p e r s u a d e d n o t t o do t h a t . Tex, h e

was a c h a r a c t e r ; h e was l i k e t h a t .

We a l s o s e i z e d a l l o f h i s p r o d u c t s . S e i z e d e v e r y t h i n g

t h a t was i n h i s w a r e h o u s e t h a t was a d a n g e r o u s d r u g , amlphet-

a m i n e s o r b a r b i t u r a t e o r s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t . S e i z e d h i s

f u r n i t u r e , t h e w h o l e b i t . He d e f e n d e d t h o s e a l s o . O f c o u r s e ,

h e had t o d e f e n d t h o s e on h i s own b e c a u s e t h e c o m m o d i t y i s n o t

e n t i t l e d t o f r e e c o u r t r e p r e s e n t a t i o n , s o h e became h i s own

l a w y e r . We w e n t t o c o u r t on t h a t a f e w t i m e s t o o . H e ' d d o

a l l t h e q u e s t i o n i n g a n d s u c h , b u t we e v e n t u a l l y won t h a t . I n

t o t a l l i n g t h e w h o l e t h i n g u p we s u r v e y e d a l l t h e s u p p l i e r s

t h a t h e was b u y i n g h i s a m p h e t a m i n e s f r o m . We came up w S t h

a b o u t 1 6 m i l l i o n t h a t he h a d p u r c h a s e d o v e r a p e r i o d o f 1 5 -

m o n t h s o r so , f r o m v a r i o u s a n d s u n d r y s u p p l i e r s a l l o v e r t h e

c o u n t r y . We g o t t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n f r o m i n s p e c t i o n s o f t h e

m a n u f a c t u r e r s , we s u b p e o n a e d a l l o f them, f o r t h e t r i a l down

i n H o u s t o n . We p u t t h e m a l l i n a room. H e r e w e r e a l l t h e s e

d r u g m a n u f a c t u r e r s j u s t s i t t i n g t h e r e l o o k i n g a t e a c h o t h e r ,

w o n d e r i n g w h a t t h e y w e r e t h e r e f o r . W o r r i e d ? We n e v e r d i d

c a l l them. We p u t t h e m i n a w i t n e s s r o o m and l e t t h e m s i t

t h e r e f o r a week. T h a t w o r r i e d t h e l i f e o u t o f some o f t hem,

I g u e s s . We n e v e r ' d i d g e t a r o u n d t o h a v i n g t o u s e them, b u t

we w a n t e d t h e m f o r r e b u t t a l , i f n e c e s s a r y , t o t e s t i f y om w h a t

t h e y h a d b e e n s e l l i n g t o Tex. We n e v e r d i d h a v e t o u s e them.

We f i g u r e d w h a t h i s t a k e was a n d i t was p h e n o m e n a l .

These w e r e a l l c a s h s a l e s , n o r e c o r d s . So we t u r n e d h i m o v e r

t o t h e I R S . They h i t h i m f o r b a c k t a x e s , a n d a g a i n s e i z e d

e v e r y t h i n g h e had , h i s c a r , e v e r y t h i n g . O f c o u r s e t h e n t o

c o l l e c t on t h a t , t h e y p u t i t u p f o r a u c t i o n . He was t h e o n l y

b i d d e r . He g o t i t a l l b a c k f o r $ 8 0 0 o r s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t .

He g o t e v e r y t h i n g b a c k . They w a n t e d t o s e i z e i t a g a i n u n t i l

t h e y g o t t h e t a x s e t t l e m e n t , b u t t h e c o u r t s w o u l d n ' t g o a l o n g

w i t h l e t t i n g t h e m s e i z e a n d s e i z e a n d s e i z e a n d l e t h i m k e e p

p a y i n g f o r i t t h a t way. He g o t i n t o u s t h o u g h on a f o l l o w - u p .

We p a i d t h a t o l d d e v i l $ 3 3 0 0 i n $ 1 0 0 p o s t a l money o r d e r s , f o r

a m p h e t a m i n e s , w h i c h h e n e v e r d e l i v e r e d . He g o t away w i t h i t .

He was l a u g h i n g u p h i s s l e e v e a t us . Anyway h e h a d t o s e r v e . some t i m e i n t h e ' p o k e y ' .

Then t h e r e was a woman t h a t w o r k e d i n a w h o l e s a l e d r u g

s t o r e i n San A n t o n i o . We t r a c e d b a c k t o h e r b e i n g a s o u r c e

f o r p i l l s . We p u t a t a t 1 o n h e r a n d w a t c h e d h e r o p e r a t i o n .

She w o u l d l e a v e fo r ' l u n c h e v e r y d a y a n d go t o h e r c a r a n d t h e y

o b s e r v e d t h a t s h e w o u l d s i t i n t h e c a r , c l o s e t h e d o o r a n d

t h e n go t h r o u g h t h e m o t i o n o f d o i n g s o m e t h i n g l i k e r e a c h i n g

under t h e t a r s e a t . Thm s h e m a l d h a t e her lamh i* t h c a r ;

s h e w o u l d g e t o u t a n d go b a c k i n s i d e a n d go t o w o r k . T h a t

e v e n i n g , c o m i n g o u t , t h e same t h i n g a l l o v e r a g a i n . A f t e r

w a t c h i n g t h i s f o r a w h i l e , t h e y s t a r t e d p u t t i n g i n i n v e n t o r y ,

s t a r t e d m a r K i n g a f e w b o t t l e s , a n d we f o u n d t h e same b o t t l e s

i n t h e b u y s we made. She was s t e a l i n g t h e f i r m b l i n d . They

w e r e o r d e r i n g l i k e c r a z y t r y i n g t o k e e p t h e i r s t o c k up, b u t

t h e y w e r e n ' t c h e c k i n g t h e i r " o u t g o " w i t h t h e i r " i n c o m a " . The

s t o r e h a d n e v e r p u t i t t o g e t h e r .

L o f s v o l d : S t e a l i n g w h o l e b o t t l e s a n d t h e n s e l l i n g them.

H i l l : R i g h t . It was p u t t i n g a r u n on t h e w h o l e s a l e h o u s e t o

k e e p h e r i n s t o c k , s h e was s t e a l i n g i t so f a s t . She h a ~ d a

g o o d b u s i n e s s g o i n g .

We h a d one t h a t g o t b u s t e d b y h i s dog. We made a number

o f b u y s ; t h i s g u y r a n a f i l l i n g s t a t i o n , b u t he was a p r e t t y

b i g o p e r a t o r . The M a r s h a l wen t t h e r e t o s e i z e t h e d r u g s t h a t

he h a d and t h e y c o u l d n ' t f i n d a n y t h i n g . They w e r e l o o k i n g a l l

o v e r t h e p l a c e f o r i t and, o f c o u r s e , he was d e n y i n g ev le ry -

t h i n g t o t h e h i l t . He d i d n ' t know w h a t t h e y w e r e t a k i n g

a b o u t . F i n a l l y , t h e y n o t i c e d t h a t h i s o l d d o g was s t a n ~ d i n g

o v e r i n t h e c o r n e r , p a w i n g a t t h e g r o u n d . They wen t o v l e r

t h e r e and t h e d i r t was l o o s e and t h e y s c r a p e d i t up a n d he had

a 10 g a l l o n m i l k c a n b u r i e d . The d o g d u g i t up f o r the~m.

T h a t i s w h e r e h e h a d t h e d r u g s s t a s h e d . I t t u r n e d o u t t h a t

t h a t g u y h a d a b o u t a t h r e e p a g e r a p s h e e t . E v e r y t h i n g f r o m

m u r d e r on up, He was d r o u g h c h d r d r t e r - He went trr thle

' p o k e y ' t o o .

W h i l e I was down t h e r e , I was F o o d and D r u g O f f c a r a t

t h e t i m e , I h a d a r e a l e m b a r a s s i n g s i t u a t i o n o n c e , I f e l t l i k e

I s h o u l d go r i g h t t h r o u g h t h e f l o o r o f t h e c o u r t r o o m The

i n v e s t i g a t o r s h a d made t h e i r i n v e s t i g a t i o n s a n d t h e a b d i d

t h e i r b i t and t h e Food and D r u g O f f i c e r h e l d t h e h e a r i n ~ g . I t

was a p p r o v e d a l l a l o n g t h a t l i n e . Then t h e F o o d a n d D r u g O f f -

i c e r made u p t h e p r o p o s e d c r i i n i n a 1 i n o r m a t i o n a n d t h a t w o u l d

b e s t u d i e d , p r o o f e d b y t h e b u r e a u a n d h e a d q u a r t e r s a n d t h e n i t

w o u l d go t o t h e g e n e r a l c o u n s e l ' s o f f ce , g e t t h e e y e b a l l r e -

v i e w a g a i n , a n d o n t o t h e U . S . A t t o r n e y ' s o f f i c e , w h e r e i t was

s u p p o s e d t o b e r e v i e w e d t o d e c i d e w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o

p r o s e c u t e o r n o t a n d s o i n t o c o u r t , i f i t was f i l e d . We h a d

g o n e t h r o u g h t h i s w h o l e p r o c e d u r e a n d we w e n t b a c k i n c o u r t .

The d e f e n d a n t was t h e r e . H i s a t t o r n e y was t h e r e . He h a d

e n t e r e d h i s p l e a o f g u i l t y a n d t h e j u d g e p a s s e d s e n t e n c e o n

c o u n t 1. He w e n t t o c o u n t 2 a n d h e s a i d , " M r . U . S . A t t o r n e y ,

y o u d o n ' t h a v e a d e f e n d a n t named i n c o u n t 2." I c o u l d n ' t

b e l i e v e i t . I j e r k e d t h e f i l e open a n d s u r e enough , we h a d

l e f t o f f t h e d e f e n d a n t ' s name on c o u n t 2. Boy, I f e l t l i k e I

c o u l d go r i g h t t h r o u g h t h e f l o o r on t h a t one. I t h a d g o n e

t h r o u g h a l l t h a t r e v i e w a n d n o b o d y h a d e v e r n o t i c e d i t . Even

t h e d e f e n d a n t ' s own a t t o r n e y h a d p l e d h i m g u i l t y t o i t a l l

r e a d y . We d i d n ' t g e t a s e n t e n c e o n c o u n t 2. L i k e I s a i d we

d i d n ' t g e t a s e n t e n c e on c o u n t 2. T h a t o n e was d i s m i s s e d i n

t h a t p a r t i c u l a r c a s e .

We h a d a n o t h e r c a s e t h a t came up i n Ok lahoma. T h i s was a

c o n b i n a t i o n case . The g u y o p e r a t e d o u t o f Ok lahoma a n d t h e n

h e ' d come down t o D a l l a s a l s o a n d s e l l down t h e r e . We h a d o u r

p e o p l e m a k i n g b u y s o f a m p h e t a m i n e s down i n D a l l a s f r o m t h f s

g u y , a n d t h e n a r c o t i c s p e o p l e w e r e w o r k i n g on h i m u p i n

Oklahoma. They w e r e m a k i n g n a r c o t i c b u y s f r o m h i m up t h e r e .

We e n d e d up w i t h an i n d i c t m e n t on t h e n a r c o t i c c a s e s u p i n

Ok lahoma and we w e r e h o l d i n g o u r c a s e down i n D a l l a s , as more

o f an " i n s u r a n c e " p o l i c y . We w e n t t o t r i a l on t h e n a r c o t i c s

c a s e s a n d a s a l e a d i n , t o show t h e p a t t e r n o f o p e r a t i o n s , o u r

i n s p e c t o r was p u t on t h e s t a n d t o t e s t i f y a b o u t t h e b u y s t h a t

h e h a d , m a d e down i n D a l l a s , o f a l l t h e s e t h o u s a n d s o f a m p h e t -

a m i n e s . W e l l , t h e d e f e n s e a t t o r n e y was o b j e c t i n g t o t h i s l i n e

o f r e a s o n i n g , b u t a p p a r e n t l y i n n a r c o t i c s c a s e s t h e y a r e p e r -

m i t t e d t o h a v e t h i s k i n d o f t e s t i m o n y as a p r e l u d e f o r t h e i r

g e t t i n g i n t o t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n ; t h e b a c k g r o u n d o f i t . A t t h e

e n d o f t h e f i r s t d a y , t h e d e f e n s e a t t o r n e y , he was o n e o f

t h e s e o l d t i m e s h o u t i n g a t t o r n e y s , y o u c o u l d h e a r h i m a l l o v e r

t h e c o u r t h o u s e , he s a i d , "Where a r e a l l t h e s e p i l l s t h a t t h e

g o v e r n m e n t s a y s t h e y ' v e b e e n b u y i n g ? I h a v e n ' t seen any o f

them. A l l we g o t i s t h i s man come u p h e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t a l l

t h i s s t u f f , b u t I h a v e n ' t seen a n y o f t h i s . " He s t a r t e d t o

r a v e and r a n t a b o u t t h a t . They w e r e n ' t p a r t o f t h e p r l m a

f a c i e c a s e up t h e r e s o we h a d n ' t t a k e n t h e s a m p l e s t o Ok lahoma

w i t h us . I g o t on t h e t e l e p h o n e t h o u g h a n d c a l l e d D a l l l a s t h a t

e v e n i n g a n d s a i d I w a n t t h e m a l l up h e r e i n t h e m o r n i n g i n

c o u r t . I s a i d g e t some i n s p e c t o r , p u t h i m on a p l a n e , a n d f l y

h i m u p h e r e . I w a n t h i m t o b e a b l e t o t e s t i f y t h a t h e h a d

t h e s e i n h i s c u s t o d y a n d e v e r y t h i n g . The n e x t m o r n i n g we w e n t

i n t o t h e c o u r t r o o m a n d we had a l l t h e s e Mason f r u i t j a r s a n d

b a g s o f p i l l s l i n e d u p a c r o s s t h e c o u n s e l ' s t a b l e . We m u s t o f

h a d a d o z e n o r so o f q u a r t f r u i t j a r s , f i l l e d w i t h a l l d i f f e r -

e n t c o l o r s o f p i l l s u p t h e r e . We w a l k e d i n t h e c o u r t r o o m a n d

t h e d e f e n s e a t t o r n e y s t a r t e d s c r e a m i n g a b o u t p r e j u d i c i n g t h e

j u r y b y b r i n g i n g a l l t h e s e t h i n g s i n . The o l d j u d g e s h o t h i m

r i g h t o u t o f t h e s a d d l e . He s a i d , " Y e s t e r d a y y o u c o m p l a i n e d

t h a t t h e g o v e r n m e n t h a d n ' t shown them. Now t h e g o v e r n m e n t h a s

p r o d u c e d , " and he l e t t h e m i n . We g o t a c o n v i c t i o n o n t h a t

one t o o . I d o n ' t know w h e t h e r i t w o u l d o f s t o o d u p o r n o t b u t

we d i d g e t t h e c o n v i c t i o n , i t d i d go t h r o u g h t h e a p p e l l a t e

c o u r t . I g o t t r a n s f e r r e d t h e n , and l e f t t h e m w i t h i t . A l l

t h e s e c a s e s , t h e y w e r e r e a l i n t e r e s t i n g i n v e s t i g a t i o n s t h a t we

g o t i n t o b a c k i n t h o s e days . The k d s t o d a y , t h e y m i s s t h a t

k i n d o f o p e r a t i o n . They h e a r u s t a k a b o u t i t , b u t t h e y n e v e r

h a v e seen a n y t h i n g l i k e t h a t ; n e v e r h a d a n y e x p e r i e n c e o f i t ,

a n d t h e y w o u l d k i f l d o f l i k e t o g e t t. I g u e s s ;e s t i l l g o t

some p o l i c e m e n i n t h e o u t f i t e v e n among t h e y o u n g s t e r s . They

a r e n o t g e t t i n g t h e c h a n c e s t h a t we had.

We h a d a c a s e w i t h a c r a b mea t p l a n t down o n t h e G u l f

C o a s t . The f e l l o w h a d b e e n i n o p e r a t i o n f o r s e v e r a l y e a r s ,

h a d b e e n t aken t o t a s k p r e v i o u s t o that b u t he had now s e t u p

a s h o p i n P a l a c i o u s , Texas. S t a r C r a b Company was t h e name o f

h i s o p e r a t i o n , and h e h a d a r e a l f i l t h y o p e r a t i o n . I l e a r n e d

a n a w f u l l o t a b o u t c r a b mea t p a c k i n g a n d m i c r o b i o l o g y f r o m

Jimmy Hyndman who was o u r m i c r o b i o l o g i s t down t h e r e . We h a d

S t a r C r a b i n c o u r t , h a d t h e c a s e f i l e d a n d h e was p l e a d i n g n o t a g u i l t y a n d I w e n t down t o w o r k w i t h t h e U.S. A t t o r n e y a s s i s -

t a n t who was h a n d l i n g t h e c a s e t o p r e p a r e f o r t r i a l . I h a d

o u t l i n e d t h e t e s t i m o n y f o r a l l t h e w i t n e s s e s , a l l t h e g o v e r n -

m e n t w i t n e s s e s i n t h e c a s e , b u t t h e a s s i s t a n t t h a t h a d t h i s

c a s e w a s n ' t a c c e p t i n g w h a t I h a d p r e p a r e d , t o o much. He

w a n t e d t o d o h i s own, do h i s own t h i n g . T h i s a s s i s t a n t , y o u

g o t t o u n d e r s t a n d a 1 i t t l e b i t a b o u t h i m ; he was a g r e a ~ t h u l k -

i n g , b e a r o f a man, a f o r m e r p r o f e s s i o n a l f o o t b a l l p l a y e r w i t h

C h i c a g o B e a r s , I t h i n k ; a g r e a t b i g man. S l o p p y a s h e c o u l d

be. I f he h a d on a n e c k t i e , i t was u s u a l l y p u l l e d t o ome s i d e

and w i t h s t a i n s a l l o v e r i t , h i s s h i r t w o u l d b e d i r t y , u s u a l l y

i t w o u l d be g a p i n g open a t t h e b o t t o m a n d h i s o l d h a i r y b e l l y

w o u l d be s t i c k i n g o u t . J u s t a s s l o p p y a s he c o u l d be. He was

c e r t a i n l y n o t t h e e p i t o m e o f a w e l l d r e s s e d a t t o r n e y . He h a d

b e e n i n t h e U.S. A t t o r n e y ' s o f f i c e down t h e r e a b o u t 2 0 y e a r s ,

w h i c h i s u n u s u a l t o o . A s s i s t a n t s d o n ' t u s u a l l y s t a y a r o u n d

t h a t l o n g b u t h e was t h e r e a n d he h a d d e v e l o p e d i n t o k i n d o f

t h e f a t h e r o f t h e o f f i c e . A l l t h e y o u n g a t t o r n e y s came t o h i m

f o r a d v i c e , g u i d a n c e a n d a s s i s t a n c e . He was n i c k n a m e d

"Moose" , n o d o u b t f rom h i s huge s i r e and a l l l i k e t h a t .

We s a t down i n h i s o f f i c e o n one Sunday a f t e r n o o n a n d

h e ' s s i t t i n g t h e r e w i t h an o l d u p r i g h t m e c h a n i c a l t y p e w r i t e r ,

g o i n g t h r o u g h t h e w i t n e s s e s . He w o u l d t y p e i n t h e a n s M e r s ,

t h e q u e s t i o n s he was g o i n g t o ask t h e m and w h a t t h e y w e r e

g o i n g t o answer . O f c o u r s e , I h a d a l r e a d y done t h i s f o r h im ,

b u t h e w a n t e d t o d o i t h i s way. The m a i n c h a r g e was t h a t t h e

c o n t a m i n a t i o n i n t h e c r a b m e a t was E . c o l i , b a c t e r i a . H e ' d

a s k me, " w h a t d o e s t h i s m e a n ? ' I w o u l d g i v e h i m t h e c l a s s

b o o k d e s c r i p t i o n o f E. c o l i and how i t came t o b e i n t h i s

p r o d u c t . F e c a l c o n t a m i , n a t i o n , i n d i c a t i v e o f f e c a l c o n t a m i n a -, .

t i o n and t h e r e f o r e was f i l t h y and, h e a s k e d "how d i d i t g e t

t h e r e ? " I ' d e x p l a i n , " W e l l , p e o p l e d o n ' t wash t h e i r h a n d s ,

t h e y go t o t h e b a t h r o o m , t h e y d o n ' t wash t h e i r h a n d s , t h e y

h a n d l e t h i n g s and a l l . " We w e n t t h r o u g h t h i s , and w e ' d g o o n

t o a f e w more q u e s t . i o n s a n d h e ' d come b a c k t o t h i s . " T e l l me

- . a g a i n , w h a t i s t h i s E. c o l i ? " And I g o t h r o u g h t h e w h o l e

t h i n g a g a i n f o r h im. We d i d t h i s , m u s t h a v e b e e n a h a l f a

d o z e n d i f f e r e n t t i m e s . F i n a l l y h e s a i d , "You mean i t s g o t

s h i t i n i t ? " I s a i d , "Yes, t h a t ' s a c r u d e way o f p u t t i n g i t ,

b u t t h a t ' s t h e p r o b l e m . " From t h e n on Moose a n d I, we u n d e r -

s t o o d e a c h o t h e r and we c o u l d t a l k . We d e v e o p e d o u r u n d e r -

s t a n d i n g o f e a c h o t h e r . He a l w a y s w a n t e d t o d i s c u s s a c a s e

b e f o r e i t w o u l d b e f i l e d , w h i c h was f i n e . I d g e t on t h e a i r -

p l a n e . H e ' d c a l l me and say , "Ih a v e g o t t h s c a s e a n d c a n

yoti come d m and br ing your f i l a s and let's discuss i t?" I

w o u l d go down, g e t o n t h e a i r p l a n e , I ' d f l y o H o u s t o n a n d we

w o u l d d i s c u s s t h e case . Then h e w o u l d go f i l e i t .

I t h i n k t h e l a s t one t h a t h e p u l l e d t h i s o n me, h e a s k e d ,

"Can y o u come down t o m o r r o w a n d b . r i n g y o u r f i l e s ? " I g o t o n

t h e a i r p l a n e , I h a d t o f l y down t h e r e a t 7 : 0 0 o ' c l o c k Sn t h e

m o r n i n g . I w e n t t o h i s o f f i c e . I t was 9 : 0 0 o ' c l o c k b y t h e

t i m e I g e t down town and I s a i d , " I ' m h e r e , Moose, r e a d y t o

d i s c u s s t h i s c a s e . " "Okay." I s a t t h e r e t h e w h o l e d a y a n d h e

was a s b u s y a s he c o u l d be ; a l l d a y l o n g p e o p l e g o i n g f n and

o u t o f h i s o f f i c e . I s a t t h e r e a n d c o o l e d my h e e l s a l l d a y

w a i t i n g t o g e t i n t o s e e h im. It g o t up a r o u n d 3 : 0 0 o ' c l o c k

t h a t a f t e r n o o n a n d I h a d a t i c k e t t o go b a c k home t h a t n i g h t .

F i n a l l y I s a i d , "Moose, I ' v e g o t t o g e t on t h e a i r p l a n e , I ' v e

g o t t a g e t t o t h e a i r p o r t s o t h a t I c o u l d g e t b a c k o u t m f h e r e .

When a r e we g o i n g t o d i s c u s s t h i s c a s e ? " He s a i d "Come 0 n

i n . " I w e n t i n h i s o f f i c e , and i n t h e m e a n t i m e t w o o r t h r e e

o t h e r g u y s came i n h i s o f f i c e , a n d f i n a l l y h e s a i d , " w h a t ' s

t h i s c a s e a b o u t ? " I e x p l a i n e d i t t o h i m v e r y b r i e f l y , w h a t i t

was a b o u t . He s a i d , " I s i t a g o o d c a s e ? " I s a i d , "Yes , i t ' s

a g o o d s o l i d c a s e . We've g o t t h e s a m p l e s , w e ' v e g o t t h e

p h o t o s . T h e r e ' s n o t h i n g w r o n g w i t h a g o o d s o l i d c a s e . " He

c a l l e d h i s s e c r e t a r y and s a i d , " H e r e go f i l e t h i s . " He n e v e r

d i d open t h e f i l e , b u t we h a d w o r k e d t o g e t h e r enough t h a t i f I

s a i d i t was a g o o d c a s e , t h a t was g o o d e n o u g h f o r h im.

L o f s v o l d : He t r u s t e d y o u .

H i l l : He t r u s t e d me, a n d I d i d n ' t l e t Moose down. I U o l d

B i l l G o o d r i c h , o n e t i m e , a b o u t a n o t h e r one o f t h e a s s i s t a n t s

down t h e r e . T h i s was when we f i r s t h a d t h e Toy S a f e t y a n d t h e

P r o d u c t S a f e t y A c t , I g u e s s , a n d we w e r e s e i z i n g c r a c k e r

b a l l s , t h o s e l i t t l e f i r e w o r k s t h i n g s . H e a d q u a r t e r s w a n t e d t o

make a w h o l e l o t o f s e i z u r e s . We h a d a n u m b e r o f t h e m t h a t

h a d b e e n a p p r o v e d b y h e a d q u a r t e r s , a n d s e n t o u t b y h e a d -

q u a r t e r s , a n d t h e n t h e y w a n t e d u s t o d o i t f a s t e r . I s a i d i f

we c o u l d documen t c a s e s o u t t h e r e , we c o u l d go s t r a i g h t t o t h e

U.S. A t t o r n e y . I was t o l d we s t i l l h a d t o r e f e r t h e m b a c k t o

B i l l G o o d r i c h . I w e n t down t o t h e U.S. A t t o r n e y ' s o f f i c e t o

t a k e o n e o f t h e m a n d t h e a s s i s t a n t s a i d , "Who i s t h i s B i l l

G o o d r i c h ? " I t o l d h i m who h e was. "Id o n ' t w a n t t o t a l k t o

h i m . I s t h e c a s e a l l r i g h t ? " I s a i d , "Yes. T h e r e i s n o t h i n g

w r o n g w i t h t h e case . " He s a i d , " T h a t ' s g o o d e n o u g h t o me, I

d o n ' t n e e d t o t a l k t o h im . " So we b y p a s s e d M r . G o o d r i c h . M r .

G o o d r i c h t h o u g h t h i s name h a d t o b e o n e v e r y t h i n g b e f o r e i t

w o u l d b e a c c e p t a , b l e a t t h a t t i m e . Down t h e r e t h e y d i d n ' t know

M r . G o o d r i c h a t a l l , b u t t h e y d i d know B i l l H i l l a n d t h a t was

s a t i s f a c t o r y f o r them.

I h a d a n o t h e r case , p r o b a b l y t h e b i g g e s t p r o s e c u t i o n we

had. I t i n v o l v e d a f i r m , i t was p r e t t y much a one-man o p e r a -

t i o n . We h a d one man s i t t i n g up a s t h e p r e s i d e n t of . . .o f

a b o u t , t h e y h a d r o u g h l y 2 0 0 d i f f e r e n t o p e r a t i o n s g o i n g i n t h e

s t a t e s o f T e x a s and Ok lahoma. I b e l i e v e t h e r e w e r e some

p r o b a b l y i n New M e x i c o , a l s o , b e c a u s e I know I c o n t a c t e d

D e n v e r and I t h i n k D e n v e r s t i l l h a d New M e x i c o a t t h e t i m e .

They w e r e i n t o c o t t o n o i l , t h e y w e r e i n t o o i l w h i c h d i d n ' t

b o t h e r us . They h a d f o o d m a n u f a c t u r i n g p l a n t s , f l o u r m i l l s ,

w h o l e s a l e w a r e h o u s e s a l l o v e r t h e a r e a down t h e r e . T h e y h a d

h a d a p r o s e c u t i o n on t h e f l o u r m i l l b e f o r e we o p e n e d D a l l a s .

Then we d e v e l o p e d a p r o s e c u t i o n o f t h i s w a r e h o u s e a n d a p r o s e -

c u t i o n o f t h a t w a r e h o u s e . We ended up w i t h f o u r c a s e s a l m o s t

s i m u l t a n e o u s l y . We h a d t h e i r f o o d m a n u f a c t u r i n g p l a n t i n F o r t

W o r t h ; we h a d a w a r e h o u s e o u t i n Odessa, Texas , I b e l i e v e . We

h a d t h e f l o u r m i l l a g a i n o v e r i n P a r i s , T e x a s a n d we h a d

a n o t h e r w a r e h o u s e s o m e p l a c e . T h e r e w e r e t w o w a r e h o u s e s , a

f l o u r m i l l and t h e i r f o o d m a n u f a c t u r i n g p l a n t . T h e y a l l came

t h r o u g h a b o u t t h e same t i m e . We h a d t h i s one man t h a t was

p r e s i d e n t o f a l l o f them. They w e r e a l l s e p a r a t e c o r p o r a -

t i o n s , b u t he was p r e s i d e n t o f e a c h one o f them. W e l l , t h e

f i r s t c a l l I g o t was f r o m the.U.S. A t t o r n e y ' s o f f i c e o u e r i n

E a s t Texas. We w e n t t h r o u g h t h e f i l e s a n d he w a s n ' t t o o h e p

o n t h e c a s e . F i n a l l y , h e was g o i n g t h r o u g h t h e f i l e s a n d

f o u n d a l e t t e r f r o m t h e j u d g e t o M r . B o u d r e a u x , t h e D i r e c t o r

o f New O r l e a n s D i s t r i c t , on t h e p r e v i o u s p r o s e c u t i o n o f t h e

m i l l , i n s t r u c t i n g B o u d r e a u x t o r e p o r t b a c k t o h i m i f we e v e r

f o u n d a n y t h i n g w r o n g w i t h t h i s p l a n t a g a i n . T h a t j u d g e was

s t i l l on t h e bench . So t h i s U.S. A t t o r n e y s a i d , " W e l l , a t

l e a s t you 've go t a f r i e n d l y judge h e r e . H e ' s e s s e n t i a l ' l y

t e l l i n g u s t h a t he w a n t s t o know if t h i s f i r m g e t s o u t o f l i n e

a g a i n . " So he s a i d , "Okay, I'll f i l e t h e case . I'll e v e n go

a s t e p f u r t h e r t h a n t h a t . These g u y s h a v e n ' t l e a r n e d a l e s s o n

y e t . I am g o i n g t o h a v e w a r r a n t s f o r t h e i r a r r e s t i s s u e d . "

And I s a i d , " W e l l , now t h a t ' s up t o y o u . A l l I ' m s a y i n g i s

t h a t I ' d l i k e f o r y o u t o f i l e a c a s e . How y o u d o i t f r o m

t h e r e on, y o u a r e o n y o u r own." He d i d . He g o t w a r r a n t s f o r

t h e i r a r r e s t s . The m a r s h a l w e n t down a n d h a u l e d t h i s p r e s i -

d e n t o u t o f h i s o f f i c e , down t o t h e c o u r t h o u s e , a n d f i n g e r -

p r i n t e d h i m ; t h e y t o o k mug s h o t s o f h i m ; t h i s g u y i s a m u l t i -

m i l l i o n a i r e . T h e y t r e a t e d h i m l i k e a c r i m i n a l . T h e y l e t h i m

go b a c k t o h i s o f f i c e t h e n . I t w a s n ' t a week l a t e r u n t i l i t

h a p p e n e d a g a i n . The a s s i s t a n t U.S. A t t o r n e y t o o k t h e l e a d

f r o m t h e f i r s t one ; t h i s was i n a n o t h e r j u r i s d i c t i o n . We h a d

c a s e s i n t h r e e d i f f e r e n t j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t s , b u t h e t o o k t h e

l e a d f r o m t h e f i r s t U.S. A t t o r n e y , a n d g o t a w a r r a n t f o r h i s

a r r e s t , a g a i n . The m a r s h a l h a u l e d t h a t p o o r c o r p o r a t i o n

p r e s i d e n t down a n d p u t h i m a l l t h r o u g h i t a g a i n . I d o n ' t

t h i n k t h e y d i d i t on t h e t h i r d one, b u t h e was h a u l e d down

t h e r e t w i c e , f i n g e r p r i n t e d , p i c t u r e s t a k e n , t h e w h o l e b i t .

Then, u n d e r R u l e 20, t h e y c o n s o l i d a t e d a l l o f t h e c a s e s ;

b r o u g h t t h e m i n t o F o r t W o r t h f o r a p l e a a n d s e n t e n c i n g . They

h a d t h i s p o o r g u y t h e r e . He was named a s t h e d e f e n d a n t i n

e v e r y c o u n t , i n a l l f o r m s o f t h e p r o s e c u t i o n s . They d i d n ' t

waiye t h e reading o f t h o jnformoljoas, They took if c u a t by

c o u n t . T h e y ' d r e a d a c o u n t a n d a t t h e e n d e a c h one w o u l d e n t e r

h i s p l e a . They h a d t h a t p o o r g u y j u m p i n g u p a n d down, b o u n c -

i n g l i k e a r u b b e r b a l l o n e v e r y c o u n t , e n t e r i n g a p l e a . Then

t h e j u d g e a s k e d f o r a d e s c r i p t i o n o f w h a t t h e c a s e s w e r e a l l

!aa b o u t . The U.S. A t t o r n e y a s s i s t a n t s a i d t h a t M r . H i l l i s i n

t h e c o u r t r o o m r e p r e s e n t i n g t h e a g e n c y , a n d h e c o u I d d e s c r i b e

t h e c a s e s . I g o t u p a n d I s t a r t e d e x p l a i n i n g t h e c a s e s a n d

t h e o l d j u d g e , I g u e s s I g o t c a r r i e d away w i t h my d e s c r i p t i o n

a l i t t l e b i t , a n d t h e j u d g e s t o p p e d me a n d chewed me o u t . He

s a i d , " Y o u ' r e n o t h e r e t o t r y t h e s e c a s e s , t h a t ' s w h a t t h e

a t t o r n e y s a r e t o do. A l l I w a n t f r o m y o u . i s a d e s c r i p t i o n o f

t h e c a s e s , " a n d h e s a t me down. Then h e s t a r t e d a s k i n g me

q u e s t i o n s on e v e r y t h i n g t h a t I h a d j u s t g o t t h r o u g h s a y : i n g .

So i t g o t b a c k . . . b u t i t was r e s p o n s e s t o h i s q u e s t i o n s .

L o f s v o l d : Yes.

H i l l : T h a t was a c c e p t a b l e , b u t I c o u l d n ' t go o f f on my own

a n d d o i t . So we g o t e v e r y t h i n g i n t h a t we r e a l l y w a n t e d t o

on d i r e c t q u e s t i o n s f r o m t h e c o u r t . Then we s t a r t e d i n w i t h

t h e s e n t e n c i n g . They t o o k i t a g a i n , c o u n t b y c o u n t . They h a d

t h e p o o r l i t t l e guy s t a n d up f o r e a c h c o u n t . I t s o u n d e d l i k e

we g o t a b i g f i n e o u t o f i t , b u t a c t u a l l y we d i d n ' t , c o m p a r e d

t o w h a t i t c o u l d o f been. I t h i n k we g o t t h e i r a t t e n t i o n

a f t e r t h a t one. I t h i n k we f i n a l l y g o t t h e i r a t t e n t i o n on

t h o s e . T h e r e m u s t h a v e b e e n 1 5 o r 1 6 c o u n t s a n d t h a t p o o r guy

h a d t o g e t up a n d a n s w e r t o e a c h one o f t h e m i n d i v i d u a l i y . He

c o u l d n ' t j u s t a n s w e r t o a l l o f them. He was a m u l t i - m i l l i o n -

n a i r e , o n e o f t h e l e a d i n g c i t i z e n s o f F o r t W o r t h . D o n a t e d a

b i g a r t g a l l e r y t o t h e c i t y a n d h e r e we a r e p r o s e c u t i n g h i m ,

f o r f i l t h y p l a n t s , f o o d p l a n t s .

Had a n o t h e r one t h a t was v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g t h a t I g o t

s a d d l e d w i t h ; t h e C a l - T e x o r a n g e j u i c e c a s e down t h e r e . Even

t h o u g h we g o t a c o n v i c t i o n on t h e m t h e f i r s t t i m e , t h e c o u r t s

o v e r - t u r n e d t h e c o n v i c t i o n .

L o f s v o l d : T h a t was t h e one t h a t was p r e p a r i n g . . .

H i l l : M a k i n g t h e o r a n g e j u i c e o u t o f t h e H o u s t o n c i t y w a t e r

s u p p l y , c o l o r , s u g a r a n d a l i t t l e b i t o f o r a n g e j u i c e , b u t n o t

v e r y much. The c o n v i c t i o n was o v e r - t u r n e d b e c a u s e o f t h e

f a u l t y i n f o r m a t i o n , t h e way i t was w r i t t e n . And w i t h t h e

o v e r - t u r n o f t h a t one, i t o v e r - t u r n e d t h e o t h e r c a s e t h a t t h e y

h a d on t h e p e r j u r y c h a r g e s . I t w i p e d t h e s l a t e c l e a n . T h a t

was p a r t l y b r o u g h t down b y t h e U.S. A t t o r n e y ' s o f f i c e t h e m -

s e l v e s b e c a u s e t h e o r i g i n a l i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t came o u t f r o m

Food a n d D r u g was t h e u s u a l one. I t s p e l l e d i t o u t i n g r e a t

d e t a i l y o u know. The U.S. A t t o r n e y h a d s h o r t e n e d i t and i t

s i m p l y s a i d t h a t t h e o r a n g e j u i c e was a d u l t e r a t e d a n d m i s -

b r a n d e d w i t h o u t s a y i n g how o r a n y t h i n g a b o u t i t . T h a t

e v e n t u a l l y was o v e r t u r n e d . W e l l , t h e A d m i n i s t r a t i o n d i d n ' t

w a n t t o l e t i t d r o p , s o I was g i v e n t h e c h o r e o f s t a r t i n g f r o m

s c r d t c h , a n d p r e s e n t i n g t h e c a s e t o t h e G r a n d J u r y a g a i n . I n

t h e m e a n t i m e t h e U.S. A t t o r n e y ' s o f f i c e h a d moved. Our R e s i -

d e n t o f f i c e h a d moved. Our o f f i c e h a d moved, f i l e s w e r e l o s t .

B i l l Hays t h e Food a n d D r u g O f f i c e r i n New O r l e a n s was a b l e ,

h e w e n t t o t h e A p p e l l a t e C o u r t and t h e y h a d some e x t r a c o p i e s

o f t h e t r i a l t r a n s c r i p t s . T h e r e w e r e t h r e e vo lumes . I t o o k

t h o s e b o o k s home, a n d t o o k a w e e k ' s l e a v e . I s a t down w i t h

t h o s e t r a n s c r i p t s a t home a n d I r e a d them, w o r d f o r w o r d , made

my n o t e s and p r e p a r e d t o go b e f o r e t h e G r a n d J u r y on t h a t

b a s i s . I d i d p r e s e n t t h e c a s e t o t h e G r a n d J u r y , g o t t h e

i n d i c t m e n t a n d t h e y came i n a n d e n t e r e d a p l e a . T h a t l e t me

o f f t h e h o o k ; we c o u l d n ' t f i n d t h e o r i g i n a l f i l e s .

L o f s v o l d : I f t h e y h a d g o n e t o t r i a l i t w o u l d o f b e e n v lery

v e r y d i f f i c u l t . . .

H i l l : I f we h a d some more t i m e t o l o o k f o r i t .

L o f s v o l d : S u r e l y .

H i l l : B u t we o n l y h a d f i v e d a y s I t h i n k u n t i l t h e s t a t u t e r a n

o u t .

L o f s v o l d : Oh, t h e s t a t u t e o f l i m i t a t i o n s ?

H i l l : Yes, t h e s t a t u t e was g o i n g t o r u n o u t . And we h a d t o

g e t t h e i n d i c t m e n t i n t h e r e . B u t t h a t was c u t t i n g i t p l r e t t y

c l o s e . T h a t c h a n g e d a l l when t h e y came i n and e n t e r e d a p l e a

on i t .

Then we h a d a n o t h e r r e a l i n t e r e s t i n g c o n s p i r a c y c a s e t h a t

came up f o r d i s t r i b u t i o n o f g l y o x y l i d e down t h e r e . I men-

t i o n e d e a r l i e r a b o u t o n e o f t h e h e a r i n g s I h e l d i n D a l l a s was

t h i s o l d c h i r o p r a c t o r or w h a t e v e r h e was , n a t u r o g a t h , t h a t was

s e l l i n g g l y o x y l i d e . T h a t d i d n ' t s t o p h i m . T h a t j u s t momen-

t a r i l y i n t e r r u p t e d h i s o p e r a t i o n s . We l e a r n e d l a t e r t h a t h e

a p p a r e n t l y was b a c k i n b u s i n e s s a g a i n . We p l a c e d some o r d e r s

t h r o u g h h i m and t h e y came t h r o u g h w i t h a p o s t m a r k s h o w i n g

t h e y h a d b e e n m a i l e d f r o m down i n M c A l l e n , Texas. W e l l , t h a t

made u s s t a r t w o n d e r i n g . How i n t h e h e l l i s i t we p l a c e d t h e

o r d e r w i t h t h i s g u y u p h e r e i n P a l e s t i n e a n d i t ' s s h i p p e d f r o m

M c A l l e n , Texas. So we g o t t o w o r k i n g o n t h a t a n d t h e n we h a d

s h i p m e n t s o f i t p o s t m a r k e d on a r a i l r o a d ; i t was b e i n g p o s t -

m a r k e d o n a t r a n. The u p s h o t o f i t was, we g o t a t h r e e way

c o n n e c t i ' o n . We h a d t h e g u y i n P a l e s t i n e , we h a d o s t e n s i b l y a

d o c t o r , an M..D i n M e x i c o , a n d we h a d a n o t h e r o n e i n M c A l l e n ,

Texas . You p l a c e y o u r o r d e r w i t h one, l i k e t h e g u y i n

P a l e s t i n e . It w o u l d b e s h i p p e d f r o m M c A l l e n , Texas. I t

t u r n e d o u t t h a t t h e p r o d u c t was a c t u a l l y b e i n g s u p p l i e d b y t h e

g u y o v e r i n M e x i c o , w h e r e g l y o x y l i d e was a p p a r e n t l y a s l e g a l

a s c o u l d be.

We made a n u m b e r o f b u y s l i k e t h a t . We h a d t h e i r l e t t e r -

h e a d s t a t i o n a r y . We h a d e v e r y t h i n g . The g u y i n P a l e s t i n e , h e

w o u l d o r d e r s t a t i o n a r y f o r t h e g u y i n M c A l l e n , T e x a s a n d t h e r e

was a l o t o f c o n n e c t i o n s l i k e t h a t . B u t y o u c o u l d n ' t r e a l l y

t i e a n y t h i n g down t i g h t . So we w e n t t o t h e U.S. A t t o r n e y w i t h

j u s t a s t r a i g h t f o r w a r d Food and D r u g c a s e . The a s s i s t a n t

t h a t g o t i t c a l l e d f o r a d i s c u s s i o n . I w e n t down a n d s p e n t a

day w i t h bjm going over t h e case. I4.s sa id, " I t ' s ae cwt and

o u t c o n s p i r a c y . " I s a i d , "It v e r y l i k e l y i s , b u t how a r e y o u

g o i n g t o p r o v e i t ? How a r e y o u go n g t o p r o v e t h e c o n s p i r a c y

b a s e d o n w h a t w e ' v e g o t ? " He s a i d "Id o n ' t know b u t l e t ' s

i n d i c t them. G i v e t h e m a l l o f t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t y o u ' v e g o t

t h e r e a n d go f o r a c o n s p i r a c y . " He s a i d , " I f we c a n ' t p r o v e

i t , maybe we c a n p l e a b a r g a i n , a n d g e t a p l e a on a l e s s e r

c h a r g e maybe, w i t h o u t g o i n g t o t r i a l . " So h e was adaman t . He

w a s n ' t g o i n g t o t a k e i t u n l e s s we d o i t t h a t way. I s a i d ,

"Okay, i f t h a t ' s w h a t y o u w a n t , y o u a r e on y o u r own." He

w r o t e i t u p i n a c o n s p i r a c y f o r m . I p r e s e n t e d t h e c a s e t o t h e

g r a n d j u r y and t h e y i n d i c t e d t h e m a l l .

The guy i n M e x i c o , w e l l t h e g r a n d j u r y was i n B r o w n s -

v i l l e , and t h i s guy was r i g h t a c r o s s t h e b o r d e r . I t t u r n e d

o u t he l i v e d i n B r o w n s v i l l e , h a d h i s o f f i c e i n M a t a m o r a s a n d

h e was c o m m u t i n g e v e r y day , b a c k and f o r t h . W e l l , we g o t t h e

i n d i c t m e n t a n d i t h i t t h e m e d i a a n d h e was s t i l l i n h i s o f f i c e

i n M e x i c o when t h e w a r r a n t f o r h i s a r r e s t was i s s u e d a n d h e r e

a he was a t t h e b r i d g e . -

L o f s v o l d : D i d n ' t d a r e come home.

H i l l : No. We g o t t h e o t h e r t w o a n d t h e y came i n and p l e d

g u i l t y t o c o u n t 1, c o u n t 1 was t h e c o n s p i r a c y c o u n t .

L o f s v o l d : Oh, no.

H i 11 : I d o n ' t know w h e t h e r t h e a t t o r n e y d i d n ' t r e a d vthat he

h a d , o r w h a t , b u t h e p l e d h i m g u i l t y t o c o u n t 1. We 1 1 , t h i s

guy that was o v e r i n Matamoras, he stayed over t h e r e f a r s e v -

e r a l m o n t h s , b e c a u s e he knew i f h e came b a c k a c r o s s h e was

g o i n g t o g e t a r r e s t e d a s s o o n a s h e c r o s s e d t h e b o r d e r .

We g o t t o d i g g i n g i n t o h i s r e c o r d s a l i t t l e a n d f o u n d

o u t t h a t h e had been a n a t u r o p a t h i n Texas. And when S a r a h

Hughes, down t h e r e , t h e j u d g e r u l e d t h a t n a t u r o p a t h y was n o t a

l e g i t i m a t e f o r m o f t r e a t m e n t i n t h e S t a t e o f Texas and d i s -

b a r r e d t h e who le p r a c t i c e , he went t o Mexico. Through some

f a l s i f i e d documents, such as a b i r t h c e r t i f i c a t e made o u t i n

Span i sh , he became a " n a t u r a l b o r n " Mex i can c i t i z e n . He a l s o

f a l s i f i e d a m e d i c a l d e g r e e and had g o t t e n a l i c e n s e as a med i -

c a l d o c t o r and was p r a c t i c i n g o v e r t h e r e i n Matamoras. W e l l ,

somehow t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n w i t h t h e c o r r e c t v e r s i o n o f h i s b i r t h

c e r t i f i c a t e and h i s backg round g o t i n t o t h e hands o f t h e

Mex i can o f f i c i a l s and t h e y p r o m p t l y s e n t h i m p a c k i n g .

L o f s v o l d : D e p o r t e d him?

H i l l : D e p o r t e d him, a c r o s s t h e b r i d g e . The re were a few

t e l e p h o n e c a l l s back and f o r t h and t h e r e was somebody w a i t i n g

t o meet him. We g o t h im o u t o f c i r c u l a t i o n t o o .

L o f s v o l d : What y e a r was t h a t ?

H i l l : T h i s w o u l d have been p r o b a b l y a r o u n d 1965.

L o f s v o l d : B e f o r e l a e t r i l e became p o p u l a r .

H i l l : Yes. Krebs was i n t h e b u s i n e s s , o f c o u r s e , v e r y e a r l y

on. I n f a c t I h e l d a h e a r i n g w i t h h im b e f o r e I l e f t San

F r a n c i s c o t h e f i r s t t ime .

L o f s v o l d : Oh, yes they had bees.,.

H i l l : They had been a round f o r y e a r s .

L o f s v o l d : Yes, a round f o r y e a r s , b u t i t was s p o r a d i c and n o t

t h e w e l l o r g a n i z e d d i s t r i b u t i o n t h a t we had i n 1970 's .

H i l l : We had, K r e b ' s l a e t r i l e was d i s t r i b u t e d i n D a l l a s by

H a r r y T a y l o r who was t h e s u c c e s s o r t o t h e Hoxsey T r e a t m e n t

L e g i s l a t i v e S e r v i c e , - - - h e s a i d , " M o r t S c h n e i d e r i s b e i n g

t r a n s f e r r e d t o t h e B u r e a u o f D r u g s and y o u a r e now C h i e f o f

C o n g r e s s i o n a l l i a i s o n . " J u s t l i k e t h a t . I was s u p p o s e d t o b e

i n c h a r g e o f t h a t o f f i c e t h e n , t h e C o n g r e s s i o n a l l i a i s o n . I

h a d t w o p r o f e s s i o n a l s , I guess . One was G a l e Wyer who was i n

t h e D e v e l o p m e n t P r o g r a m w i t h me, a s a c h e m i s t a n d t h e o t h e r

y o u n g f e l l o w h e ' s s t i l l up t h e r e a t h e a d q u a r t e r s now, G e o r g e

B r u b a k e r . They w e r e my p r o f e s s i o n a l s a n d I h a d a s e c r e t a r y .

We w e r e s u p p o s e d t o p r e p a r e f o r a l l t h e h e a r i n g s , a l l t h e

c o n g r e s s i o n a l o v e r s i g h t h e a r i n g s and a n s w e r a l l t h e c o n g r e s -

s i o n a l m a i l . What a p r e s s u r e c o o k e r t h a t was!

I ' v e h a d some w o n d e r f u l e x p e r i e n c e s t h e r e . They w e r e

v e r y d i f f i c u l t , v e r y s t r e s s f u l a n d s u c h , b u t t h e y r e a l l y gave

me an i n s i g h t on how t h i n g s were d e v e l o p e d a t h e a d q u a r t e r s .

T h e r e were t w o t h a t r e a d i l y come t o m i n d t h a t I was r e e l l y

d e e p l y i n v o l v e d i n . One o f t h e m was a C a e s a r Chavez c o m p l a i n t

o f t h e p e s t i c i d e c o n t a m i n a t i o n i n t h e g r a p e i n d u s t r y h e r e i n

C a l i f o r n i a , w h i c h I a l r e a d y knew a l i t t l e b i t a b o u t . He made

t h e v e r y w i l d c o m p l a i n t t h a t t h e y ' d c o l l e c t e d s a m p l e s o f

g r a p e s on t h e W a s h i n g t o n m a r k e t . They f o u n d t h e m c o n t a m i n a t e d

w i t h p e s t i c i d e s a n d n o b o d y was d o i n g a n y t h i n g a b o u t i t . O f

c o u r s e he was u s i n g i t a s a p l o y t o p r o t e c t t h e M e x i c a n v i n e -

y a r d w o r k e r s , t h e a g r i c u l t u r a l w o r k e r s . He t e s t i f i e d a s t 0

t h e l o c a t i o n o f t h e s t o r e s t h a t h e g o t t h e s a m p l e s f rom, a

l a b o r a t o r y t h a t h a d a n a l y z e d t h e s a m p l e s a n d such . I w e n t

r i g h t b a c k o v e r t o t h e o f f i c e a n d g o t w i t h I g u e s s P a u l H i l e ,

I d o n ' t remember w h e t h e r i t was P a u l o r Sam. I g u e s s Sam, n o

Sam was s t i l l h e a d i n g up F i e l d O p e r a t i o n s t h e n .

L o f s v o l d : Yes.

H i l l : B u t h e a s s i g n e d P a u l t o w o r k w i t h me o n t h e p r o b l e m .

L o f s v o l d : I b e t t h a t was i t .

H i 1 1 : And we c a l l e d B a l t i m o r e and.. . , .

L o f s v o l d : P a u l H i l e ?

H i l l : Yes, P a u l H i l e . We g a v e t h e a s s i g n m e n t t o B a l t i m o r e

i m m e d i a t e l y t o c o l l e c t s a m p l e s o f g r a p e s a t t h o s e same s t o r e s .

Then I w e n t o u t t o P a u l ' s h o u s e t h a t n i g h t a n d we d r a f t e d a n

a s s i g n m e n t , a n a t i o n w i d e a s s i g n m e n t s u r v e y , t o c o l l e c t sam-

p l e s o f g r a p e s a l l o v e r t h e c o u n t r y , w h i c h we d i d a n d g o t t h e m

a l l a n a l y z e d . The r e s u l t s w e r e a l l s e n t b a c k i n t o me. 1

c o l l a t e d t h e m t o g e t h e r . G e o r g e M u r p h y was a S e n a t o r f r o m

C a l i f o r n i a . A l a n C r a n s t o n was a S e n a t o r o f C a l i f o r n i a a t t h a t

t i m e , t o o . Ted K e n n e d y t e s t i f i e d a t t h e h e a r i n g b u t I t h i n k

C r a n s t o n c h a i r e d t h e h e a r i n g , t h e o r i g i n a l h e a r i n g . It was

a l l o n e way, t h e f i r s t h e a r i n g . The w o r d g o t o u t t h a t F o o d

a n d D r u g h a d made t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n a s a f o l l o w - u p o n i t a n d

h a d i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t d i d n o t n e c e s s a r i l y c o i n c i d e w i t h t h e

p r e v i o u s t e s t i m o n y . We w e r e l o o k i n g a t i t o n a much l a r g e r

s c a l e . We d e t e r m i n e d t h a t o n e o f t h e s t o r e s Chavez h a d t e s t i -

f i e d t h e y g o t s a m p l e s f r o m , d i d n ' t e v e n e x i s t . I t was a

v a c a n t l o t a t t h a t a d d r e s s . T h e r e was n o s u c h s t o r e o n t h a t

I

w h o l e s t r e e t . I w e n t u p p e r s o n a l l y on t h a t one, e v e n n o t

r e l y i n g on w h a t t h e i n v e s t i g a t o r s h a d done. I w e n t o u t t h e r e

m y s e l f on S a t u r d a y b e f o r e t h e h e a r i n g on Monday a n d v e r i f i e d

t h a t t h e r e was n o s u c h s t o r e on t h a t s t r e e t a n y p l a c e . We

i n t e r v i e w e d t h e c h e m i s t t h a t h a d a n a l y z e d t h e sampl e s f o r M r .

Chavez. We w e n t t h r o u g h a l l h i s p r o c e d u r e s w i t h h i m, l o o k e d

a t h i s c h r o m a t o g r a p h s a n d w o r k s h e e t s . The f e l l o * t h a t was

w i t h me was J e r r y B u r k e who was a y o u n g c h e m i s t i n o u r b u r e a u ,

who knew a l l t h e p e s t i c i d e p r o c e d u r e s . He was o u r e x p e l r t on

i t . We w e r e a b l e t o go b a c k i n t o t h e h e a r i n g . 1 g u e s s

S e n a t o r M u r p h y was t h e one who i n s i s t e d we h a v e a f o l l o w - u p

h e a r i n g on t h i s m a t t e r , s o t h a t we c o u l d g e t i n t o t h e r e c o r d

w h a t FDA h a d d o n e t h a t d i d n ' t c o n f i r m t h e o r i g i n a l c o m p l a i n t s .

p r e p a r e d t h e t e s t i m o n y ...d r a f t e d t h e t e s t i m o n y f o r t h e

C o m m i s s i o n e r . We g o t t o g e t h e r a l l t h e i n f o r m a t i o n . We w e n t

b a c k i n f o r t h e h e a r i n g a n d i t was r a t h e r a m u s i n g . Th e y g o t

t h i s c h e m i s t t h a t h a d d o n e t h e o r i g i n a l a n a l y s i s f o r M r .

Chavez. He was a v e r y d i s t i n g u i s h e d l o o k i n g g r a y h a i r e d

g e n t l e m a n . He t e s t i f i e d i n g r e a t d e t a i l a b o u t w h a t he h a d

done. Then we p u t on o u r t e s t i m o n y , w i t h o u r c h e m i s t , J e r r y

B u r k e . A t t h a t t i m e J e r r y h a d t h e a p p e a r a n c e o f t h e " J p e

C o l l e g e " t y p e , t h e c r e w c u t h a i r , a v e r y y o u n g w h i p p e r s n a p p e r .

H e g e t s up t h e r e a n d s t a r t s t e s t i f y i n g a n d t h e n i t came o u t

t h a t h e was t h e o n e t h a t d e v e l o p e d t h e m e t h o d o l o g y h i m s e l f .

He was t h e e x p e r t and he was a b l e t o j u s t c u t down t h e o t h e r

c h e m i s t , j u s t c o m p l e t e l y d e v a s t a t e d h i s t e s t i m o n y . And t h e n

we, o f c o u r s e , p u t on o u r t e s t i m o n y o f w h a t we h a d f o u n d on a

n a t i o n - w i d e s u r v e y . T h e r e w e r e n o p e s t i c i d e s t h e r e a n y w h e r e

n e a r l i k e w h a t Chavez h a d s a i d . I t h a d i t s i m p a c t , i t h a d i t s

e f f e c t , i t d i s c r e d i t e d . t h e w h o l e b i t .

The o t h e r h e a r i n g t h a t I g o t i n v o l v e d i n was o n l e g i s l a -

t i o n f o r t h e f i s h i n s p e c t i o n b i l l . I was g i v e n t h e j o b o f

p u l l i n g t h a t o n e t o g e t h e r t o o . Now t h i s was i n a l e g i s l a t i v e

a r e a a s c o m p a r e d t o t h e c o n g r e s s i o n a l o v e r s i g h t w h i c h I h a d

n o t h a d a n y e x p e r i e n c e i n . B u t Bob T u c k e r was g o i n g t o b e o u t

o f t h e o f f i c e o r s o m e t h i n g a n d c o u l d n ' t d o i t , s o I was g i v e n

t h a t a s s i g n m e n t t o o . We h a d l e a r n e d t h a t t h e B u r e a u o f Com-

m e r c i a l F i s h e r i e s w e r e w a n t i n g t h e b i l l a n d t h e y w e r e p u s h i n g

t h e i r v o l u n t a r y i n s p e c t i o n p r o g r a m t h a t t h e y h a d g o i n g i n t h e

f i s h i n d u s t r y a l r e a d y . L o o k i n g b a c k , r e f l e c t i n g b a c k on my

p r e v i o u s e x p e r i e n c e i n t h e a g e n c y , I knew t h a t we h a d t a k e n

a c t i o n a g a i n s t some o f t h o s e f i r m s t h a t h a d s u b s c r i b e d t o t h a t

s e r v i c e . We w e r e p r o s e c u t i n g a n d s e i z i n g t h e i r p r o d u c t s f o r

v i o l a t i o n s o f o u r l a w . Y e t , t h e y h a d t h e s t a m p o f a p p r o v a l o f

o u r s i s t e r a g e n c y o n t h e l a b e l . We g o t t h e l i s t o f names o f

a l l t h e f i r m s t h a t w e r e s u b s c r i b i n g t o t h e s e r v j r e , t h i s ~ o l -

u n t a r y s e r v i c e . I c a l l e d f o r t h e o f f i c i a l f a c t o r y f i l e s o n

t h e m a n d t h a t ' s when I was a b l e t o i n d o c t r i n a t e a n d t e a c h

L i n d a H o r t o n , who i s now i n t h e G e n e r a l C o u n s e l ' s o f f i c e , s h e

was a s t u d e n t i n t e r n w o r k i n g i n OLGS, a n d s h e was a s s i g n e d t o

me t o h e l p me. I t a l k e d t o h e r a b o u t Food a n d D r u g i n s p e c -

t i o n s a n d f a c t o r i e s and samp les . We s a t down w i t h t h o s e 4 0

f i l e s a n d w e n t t h r o u g h t h e m a n d came u p w i t h r o u g h l y 7 5 % o f

t h o s e f i r m s w e r e c l a s s e d a s v i o l a t i v e a s f a r a s we i n FDA w e r e

c o n c e r n e d . Y e t t h e y w e r e g i v e n t h e s t a m p o f a p p r o v a l b y t h e

o t h e r a g e n c y . I made c o p i e s o f a l o t o f t h e d o c u m e n t s , d o c u -

m e n t i n g t h e p r o b l e m s t h a t we w e r e f i n d i n g . h e n t h e r e was a

m e e t i n g h e l d o v e r a t t h e E x e c u t i v e O f f i c e Bu I d i n g . D r . L e y

was r e q u e s t e d t o be i n a t t e n d a n c e and, o f c o u r s e , B i l l Good-

r i c h w e n t a l o n g a s G e n e r a l C o u n s e l a n d we h a d d e p a r t m e n t a l

r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s . I w e n t a l o n g t o o , a s t h e o n e t h a t h a d e v e r y -

t h i n g s u p p o s e d l y a t my f i n g e r t i p s o n t h e d e t a i l s o f t h e

m a t t e r . We w e n t t o t h e m e e t i n g a n d we s a t a r o u n d a b i g t a b l e ,

a b i g l o n g t a b l e . We h a d a r e p r e s e n t a t i v e f r o m t h e P r e ~ s i -

d e n t ' s s t a f f c h a i r i n g t h e m e e t i n g . V i r g i n i a K n a u e r was s i t -

t i n g a t t h e o t h e r e n d o f t h e t a b l e a s t h e P r e s i d e n t ' s Consumer

R e p r e s e n t a t i v e . We h a d a1 1 t h e C o m m e r c i a l F i s h e r i e s p e ~ o p l e on

one s i d e o f t h e t a b l e a n d a l l t h e HEW a n d Food a n d D r u g p e o p l e

w e r e on t h e o t h e r s i d e o f t h e t a b l e . I t e l l y o u t h a t t ihe

p e n d u l u m was s w i n g i n g e a r l y o n i n t h e m e e t i n g t o p u t t i n ~ g t h e

program i n t h e B u r e a u o f C o m m e r c i a l F i s h e r i e s . Then we h a d a

b r e a k a n d D r . L e y h a n d e d o v e r t o V i r g i n i a K n a u e r some o f o u r

e x c e r p t s f r o m i n s p e c t i o n a l f i n d i n g s a n d s a m p l e a n a l y s e s .

T h e r e was a l o t o f d i s c u s s i o n g o i n g o n a n d t h e n we w e n t b a c k

i n t o s e s s i o n a n d t h e p e n d u l u m was swung t h e o t h e r way. If

t h e was g o i n g t o b e a b i l l , i t was g o i n g t o b e i n F o o d and

D r u We w e r e i n s t r u c t e d t o s t a r t d r a f t i n g w o r d i n g o f t h e l a w

l i k e we i n FDA w a n t e d i t . I w e n t b a c k o v e r t o t h e HEW b u i l d -

i n g and s a t down w i t h one o f t h e c o u n s e l and we d r a f t e d o u t

c e r t a i n s e c t i o n s o f t h e l a w , t h a t p r o p o s e d l a w , t h a t a f t e r -

noon. I , a l l o f a sudden , became t h e e x p e r t i n Food a n d D r u g

o n how t h e f i s h e r y b i l l s h o u l d be. T h i s was a n e y e o p e n e r a s

t o how t h i n g s happened .

L o f s v o l d : Yes. T h a t b i l l n e v e r was passed .

H i l l : The b i l l was n e v e r p a s s e d , no, b u t i t was i n t e r e s t i n g

t o s e e how t h a t momentum swung f r o m one a g e n c y t o a n o t h e r

b a s e d o n some c o p i e s o f i n s p e c t i o n a l d o c u m e n t s .

L o f s v o l d : S h o w i n g t h a t we h a d f o u n d t h e s e f i r m s i n v i o l a t i o n

e v e n t h o u g h t h e y h a d b e e n a p p r o v e d b y t h e B u r e a u

H i 11 : Yes. The b i l l n e v e r passed . I t k e e p s b e

e v e r y o n c e a n d a w h i l e . O f c o u r s e t h e y w e r e g o i n g w i t h t h e

i n - p l a n t s e r v i c e , a n d we w e r e g o i n g w i t h s p o t c h e c k t y p e o f

i n s p e c t i o n p r o g r a m . A v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g o p e r a t i o n . As I s a y ,

i t ' s t h i n g s l i k e t h a t t h a t made t h a t e x p e r i e n c e i n W a s h i n g t o n

m o r e b e n e f i c i a l t o me, t o u n d e r s t a n d how t h i n g s d o go. Whe-

t h e r i t h e l p e d me t o become a b e t t e r T i s t r i c t b f r e c t o r o r n o t ,

I d o n ' t know b u t i t makes me u n d e r s t a n d t h i n g s a l i t t l e b i t

b e t t e r anyway, l o o k i n g a t t h e o v e r a l l p i c t u r e .

Then I came b a c k o u t h e r e . W e l l , t o Kansas C i t y f i r s t a n d

c a n ' t s a y t h a t t h e r e was a n y t h i n g s i g n i f i c a n t t h a t h a p p e n e d I

damn c o l d u p t h e r e , c o u l d n ' t t a k e my f a m i l y w i t h me a n d a l l

t h e t h i n g s l i k e t h a t . F i n a l l y h e s a i d , " W e l l , h e d i d t,a l k t o

J.O. C l a r k e , j u s t b e f o r e I came i n , a n d t h e r e h a d b e e n a

t r a d e - o f f o f p e o p l e . The f e l l o w who h a d been a s s i g n e d t o S t .

L o u i s h a d a g r e e d t o go t o C h i c a g o , i n s t e a d , a n d we w o u l d t r a d e

p l a c e s . I t h o u g h t t h a t was v e r y n i c e a n d I was v e r y h a ~ p p y .

Many y e a r s l a t e r I f o u n d o u t who t r a d e d w i t h me. I t wals J o h n

Cox. J o h n h a d n ' t b e e n t o C h i c a g o y e t !

L o f s v o l d : I f I remember c o r r e c t l y , h e d i d n ' t s t a y i n C!h i c a g o

l o n g e i t h e r .

H i l l : J o h n l a s t e d a b o u t s i x weeks i n Ch i c a g o a n d h e hald h a d

i t , t o o , a n d h e c a n e b a c k t o D e n v e r , t h e n t h e y t r a n s f e r r e d h i m

b a c k t o D e n v e r .

L o f s v o l d : T r a n s f e r r e d h i m t o D e n v e r .

H i l l : I a p p r e c i a t e d J o h n ' s k i n d o f f e r t o t r a d e w i t h me, h u t

h e f o u n d o u t C h i c a g o i s n o t t h e b e s t p l a c e i n t h e w o r l d t o

l i v e i n t h e w i n t e r t i m e e i t h e r .

L o f s v o l d : What y e a r was t h a t ?

H i l l : T h a t was i n 1948 . I s t a r t e d on T u e s d a y , F e b r u a r y 2nd.

I know, Pappy K r a m e r , h a d t o l d me t h a t p a y d a y was on e v l e r y

o t h e r Tuesday a n d n o t k n o w i n g e v e r y t h i n g t h e r e was t o know

a b o u t t h e g o v e r n m e n t s e r v i c e ( a n d s t i l l d o n ' t ) , p a y d a y , t o me

i s on T u e s d a y , s o t h a t ' s when y o u s t a r t e d w o r k . So camle Tues -

d a y a n d I w e n t t o w o r k . I was p r o m p t l y a s k e d " w h e r e i n t h e

w o r l d w e r e y o u y e s t e r d a y ? You w e r e s u p p o s e d t o s t a r t

y e s t e r d a y . " So I o n l y h a d n i n e d a y s p a y t h a t p a r t i c u l a r p e r -

i o d . T h a t b r i n g s me u p t o t h e s t a r t o f i t I guess . When i t

a l l s t a r t e d .

L o f s v o l d : How l o n g w e r e y o u a t S t . L o u i s ?

H i l l : I s t a y e d i n S t . L o u i s u n t i l 1956. I l e f t t h e r e a t t h e

e n d o f M a r c h I g u e s s i n 1956.

L o f s v o l d : And came h e r e to...

H i l l : Came t o San F r a n c i s o . Coming a c r o s s c o u n t r y , we w e r e

d r i v i n g , t h r o u g h t h e d e s e r t down i n New M e x i c o o r A r i z o n a when

M a r y E l l e n commented t h a t i t s u r e was a n a w f u l l o n g way o u t

h e r e . She was b e g i n n i n g t o g e t a f e w p a n g s o f w o n d e r i n g whe-

t h e r t h i s was a g o o d i d e a o r n o t . I t o l d h e r t h a t we w e r e n ' t

g o i n g t o b e h e r e f o r e v e r ; t h a t w e ' d b e m o v i n g i n a n o t h e r f o u r

y e a r s . She w o n d e r e d a b o u t t h a t a n d I s a i d , " W e l l , I f i g u r e d

f o u r y e a r s f r o m now I ' m gonna b e l o o k i n g f o r a n o t h e r j o b a n d

w e ' d b e m o v i n g a g a i n . " B e c a u s e t h a t was t h e way t h i n g s w e r e

t h e n . I f y o u w a n t e d a p r o m o t i o n o r a n y t h i n g , y o u moved.

L o f s v o l d : Yes.

H i l l : I f i g u r e d I ' d g i v e m y s e l f f o u r y e a r s a n d I ' d b e r e a d y

t o move a g a i n . We came t o San F r a n c i s c o . I h a d a b a l l a s a n

i n s p e c t o r , b u t a f t e r 3 - 3 1 / 2 y e a r s , I f i g u r e d I ' d d o n e my d u e

on t h a t . They h a d r e o p e n e d t h e Food a n d D r u g O f f i c e r p o s i t i o n

a n d C a r l B a u e r l e n was h e r e a s a Food a n d D r u g O f f i c e r a n d I

t o l d my b o s s , A1 B a r n a r d , t h a t I ' d l i k e t o g o i n a n d s e e w h a t

C a r l d i d ; w h a t t h e Food a n d D r u g O f f i c e r ' s j o b was. T h i s was

I

a g r e e d w i t h Mac (McKay M c K i n n o n ) a n d B a r n a r d a n d s o I ' d go i n

t h e r e if I h a d a f e w s p a r e m i n u t e s . I ' d go i n a n d s e e w h a t

C a r l was d o i n g . I w a t c h e d h im , s a t i n o n h e a r i n g s , and

w a t c h e d h i m w o r k w i t h t h e i m p o r t s a l i t t l e b i t . I g o t t o

d o i n g more and more , a s t i m e w e n t a l o n g , and f i n a l l y g o t t o

d r a f t t h e summary a n d r e c o m m e n d a t i o n f o r a p r o s e c u t i o n . Then,

when one o f my own c a s e s was a p p r o v e d f o r p r o s e c u t i o n , C a r l

l e t me d r a f t t h e l e t t e r t o t h e U.S. A t t o r n e y a n d t h e

i n f o r m a t i o n . I g o t a l i t t l e b i t o f e x p e r i e n c e l i k e t h a t .

A l l o f a s u d d e n , C a r l g e t s t h e C h i e f I n s p e c t o r ' s j o b i n

C i n c i n n a t i a n d I was moved i n t o t h e Food a n d D r u g O f f i c e r ' s

j o b h e r e i n San F r a n c i s c o . I t was a v e r y p l e a s a n t s u r p r i s e .

I g o t t h e p r o m o t i o n w i t h o u t h a v i n g t o move. T h a t d i d n ' t l a s t

t o o t e r r i b l y l o n g , t h o u g h . T h a t was t h e t i m e t h a t B u d K e r r

was i n BFA. He was s l a t e d t o go t o P u e r t o R i c o , b u t h a d

a n o t h e r h e a r t a t t a c k . I g u e s s t h e d o c t o r s t o l d h i m h e h a d t o

g e t o u t o f W a s h i n g t o n , a n d h e c o u l d n ' t go t o P u e r t o R i c o . He

h a d t o g e t i n a l e s s s t r e s s f u l p o s i t i o n , s o he was named a s

t h e D e p u t y D i r e c t o r h e r e i n San F r a n c i s c o . O s t e n s i b l y he was

g o i n g t o come o u t , t a k e o v e r t h a t , g i v e me some t r a i n i n g , a n d

was g o i n g t o b e t r a n s f e r r e d t o D a l l a s when t h e y o p e n e d u p

t h a t o f f i c e . So I l e f t San F r a n c i s c o i n A u g u s t o f 1 9 6 0 a n d

w e n t t o D a l l a s .

L o f s v o l d : As a Food a n d D r u g o f f i c e r ?

H i l l : Yes.

L o f s v o l d : And how l o n g w e r e y o u t h e r e ?

H i l l : A b o u t 6 1 / 2 y e a r s . I came b a c k t o San F r a n c i s c o . . .

W e l l , I w e n t down t h e r e a s Food a n d D r u g O f f i c e r a n d Sam moved

me u p t o t h e S e n i o r Food a n d D r u g O f f i c e r p o s i t i o n a n d t h e n i n

1 9 6 4 h e made me h i s D e p u t y i n D a l l a s . Then t h e D e p u t y j o b

o p e n e d u p o u t h e r e a g a i n , when B u d K e r r r e t i r e d . I a p p l i e d

f o r t h e j o b , was s e l e c t e d , a n d came b a c k t o San F r a n c i s c o i n

F e b r u a r y o r M a r c h o f 1967 . I s t a y e d h e r e f o r a y e a r a n d a

h a l f d u r i n g w h i c h t i m e Mac h a d h i s h e a r t a t t a c k . D u r i n g t h i s

t i m e I was t o l d i f I e v e r w a n t e d t o b e a D i s t r i c t D i r e c t o r ,

I ' d h a v e t o go t h r o u g h t h e E x e c u t i v e D e v e l o p m e n t P r o g r a m .

was i n t e r v i e w e d f o r t h a t o n a F r i d a y i n December 1967. Mac

h a d h i s h e a r t a t t a c k o n S a t u r d a y , a n d t h a t k i n d o f t h r e w me

o f f s c h e d u l e . I t was s e v e r a l m o n t h s l a t e r b e f o r e I f i n a l l y

w e n t i n t o t h e p r o g r a m . I l e f t h e r e i n A u g u s t o f 1 9 6 8 a n d

w e n t i n t o t h e E x e c u t i v e D e v e l o p m e n t p r o g r a m . I was b a c k a t

h e a d q u a r t e r s f o r a y e a r a n d a h a l f i n s t e a d o f a y e a r . I t h e n

a p p l i e d f o r t h e D e p u t y j o b i n Kansas C i t y , t r y i n g d e s p e r a t e l y

t o g e t o u t o f W a s h i n g t o n ; t o g e t o u t o f t h a t s c e n e ; t o g e t

b a c k o u t t o t h e f i e l d . I w e n t t o Kansas C i t y t h e n i n l a t e

F e b r u a r y o f 1970. Then when a l l t h e j o b s o p e n e d up, t h a t

f a l l , I a p p l i e d t o come b a c k t o San F r a n c i s c o a s D e p u t y

R e g i o n a l Food a n d D r u g D i r e c t o r a n d was a b l e t o d o i t a g a i n .

I ' v e b e e n h e r e s i n c e November o f 1970.

I

u s e d f o r c a t t l e f e e d . He b r o u g h t t h a t f l o u r i n t o t h e p l a n t

a n d t h e y s p r e a d i t a l l o v e r t h e t a b l e s a n d t h e n r o l l e d t h e i r

c a n d y i n i t . W e l l , t h a t ' s w h e r e a l l t h e i n s e c t s w e r e c o m i n g

f rom. We p r o s e c u t e d t h a t p l a n t a l s o a n d " B u n n y " Runyan who

was t h e r e s i d e n t i n s p e c t o r i n L i t t l e Rock was i n c o u r t t h a t

d a y when t h e y p r e s e n t e d t h e c a s e . The f i r m h a d e n t e r e d t h e

p l e a o f n o l o c o n t e n d e r e o r s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t . Anyway we

w e r e n ' t g o i n g t o t r i a l . They e n t e r e d t h e i r p l e a a n d Bunny

Runyon made a s t a t e m e n t as t o t h e c o n d i t i o n s t h a t w e r e f o u n d

a n d i t became l u n c h t i m e . J u s t a b o u t t h a t moment, t h e y r e -

c e s s e d c o u r t , h a d l u n c h , a n d came b a c k t o c o u r t a n d t h e j u d g e

h a n d e d down a v e r y v e r y s t i f f s e n t e n c e o r p e n a l t y . He t a l k e d

t o Bunny Runyan l a t e r and s a i d , "You know, I g o t o v e r t o e a t -

@ i n g my l u n c h a n d I g o t t o t h i n k i n g a b o u t y o u r d e s c r i p t i o n o f ,

t h a t b o x o f u s e d t o i l e t p a p e r and I g o t s o s i c k I c o u l d n ' t e a t

my l u n c h . " So he j u s t came b a c k and l o w e r e d t h e boom an t h a t

guy . Took i t o u t on h im. So, y o u n e v e r know w h a t ' s r e a l l y

g o i n g t o i n f l u e n c e y o u r c a s e s s o m e t i m e s .

Those were some v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g days . They w e r e g r e a t

f u n days . We h a d a g r e a t b u n c h o f g u y s b a c k t h e r e . U n ~ f o r t u -

n a t e l y , well I g u e s s m o s t o f t h e m a r e gone now. G e b h a r t i s

s t i l l l i v i n g t h e r e i n S t . L o u i s . I t h i n k W a l k e r i s down i n

c e n t r a l 1 4 i s s o u r i s o m e p l a c e .

I know h e h a d a f a r m down t h e r e t h a t h e h a d i n h e r i t e d

f r o m some o f h i s r e l a t i v e s and we u s e d t o t e a s e W i l l i e an

a w f u l l o t . He was g o i n g t o r a i s e r e g i s t e r e d b e e f c a t t l e down

t h e r e , a t one t i m e . It seemed l i k e e v e r y t h i n g h e d i d w e n t

w r o n g ; s o m e t h i n g h a p p e n e d t o i t . He b o u g h t a b u n c h o f y o u n g

c a l v e s , b e e f c a l v e s , r e g i s t e r e d , r e a l g o o d s t o c k . They w e r e

h e i f e r s , a n d w e r e j u s t a b o u t b r e e d i n g age. H i s n e i g h b o r h a d a

l i t t l e o l d J e r s e y B u l l t h a t j umped t h e f e n c e a n d s e r v i c e d a l l

h i s y o u n g h e i f e r s f o r h a l f b r e e d s . W i l l i e h a d a b u n c h o f

w h i t e oak t r e e s o n h i s f a r m a n d h e h a d c o n t r a c t e d o u t t o a

s t a v e m i l l t o come i n a n d c u t h i s w h i t e oak t r e e s f o r w h i s k e y

b a r r e l s t a v e s . They came i n , c u t o u t a l l t h e t r e e s , l e f t

W i l l i e w i t h t h e t o p s o f them, h a u l e d o f f a l l t h e s t a v e s a n d

s k i p p e d t h e c o u n t r y . A l l h e g o t o u t o f i t was t h e t o p s o f h i s

t r e e s . He was a l w a y s g o o d a t g e t t i n g i n t o s o m e t h i n g l i k e

t h a t . P o o r W i l l i e , h e was t h e s c a p e g o a t o f t h e o f f i c e . He

l e d a h a r d l i f e a r o u n d t h e r e .

L o f s v o l d : Then y o u w e n t f r o m t h e r e t o San F r a n c i s c o ?

H i l l : Yes.

L o f s v o l d : S t i l l as a n o p e r a t i n g i n s p e c t o r ?

H i l l : S t i l l a s an o p e r a t i n g i n s p e c t o r . I was g e t t i n g a l o n g

i n my c a r e e r t h e r e , a s I s t a r t e d t o s a y e a r l i e r , a n d I was

w a n t i n g a n o t h e r p r o m o t i o n . The way i t w e n t i n t h o s e d a y s , y o u

w e n t f r o m t h e d i s t r i c t t o a r e s i d e n t p o s t . T h a t ' s w h e r e y o u

g o t y o u r p r o m o t i o n s . So I was p u s h i n g f o r t h a t a n d Roy a n d

L e o w e r e p u s h i n g f o r me t o o . B u t we w e r e n ' t g e t t i n g a n y

p l a c e . F i n a l l y I d e c i d e d I ' d do a l i t t l e b i t m o r e p u s h i n g a n d

I w e n t in . . .and I s a t down b e f o r e h a n d a n d d i d a l i t t l e b i t o f

homework. I f o u n d o u t t h a t , I t h i n k t h e r e h a d b e e n 2 3 r e s i -

d e n t i n s p e c t o r s named i n t h e p r e v i o u s t w o y e a r s . T h r e e o f

t h e m w e r e t o p o s t s i n S t . L o u i s D i s t r i c t . N o t one o f t hem,

n o t one o f t h e p e o p l e w e r e f r o m S t . L o u i s who h a d g o t t e n a

r e s i d e n t p o s t . And o f c o u r s e we h a d 1 6 d i s t r i c t s , b y a l v e r a g e

we s h o u l d o f h a d a l e a s t one a n d a h a l f o f them, s o m e t h i n g

l i k e t h a t . So I w e n t t o c o n f r o n t Roy w i t h t h a t . I s a i d , "How

come a S t . L o u i s i n s p e c t o r c a n ' t g e t a r e s i d e n t p o s t ? " I knew

I h a d b e e n recommended f o r t h e t h r e e o f t h e m i n S t . L o u f s .

W e l l , he a l l o w e d a s how he d i d n ' t know and t h e n I p r e s e n t e d

h i m w i t h my f i g u r e s . And I h a d made h i m r a i s e h i s e y e b r o w s a

l i t t l e b i t . T h e r e was s o m e t h i n g t h a t n e e d e d t o b e l o o k e d

i n t o .

S h o r t l y a f t e r t h a t F r a n k C l a r k came o u t . He was t h e

C h i e f I n s p e c t o r f o r t h e A d m i n i s t r a t i o n , a n d I a s k e d h i m w h a t

t h e f u t u r e h e l d f o r me. I t o l d h i m w h a t my i n t e r e s t was,

a n d he i n d i c a t e d t h a t t h e r e was n o t h i n g i n t h e i m m e d i a t e f u -

t u r e f o r me. I w e n t a n d t o l d Roy t h i s a f t e r F r a n k h a d l e f t

a n d he a p p a r e n t l y h a d g o t t e n a d i f f e r e n t i d e a f r o m F r a n k . He

asked me i f 1 w o u l d b e w i l l i n g t o t a k e a t r a n s f e r w i t h o u t a

p r o m o t i o n , t o a n o t h e r d i s t r i c t , i f I was p r o m i s e d t h e p r o m o -

t i o n when t h e j o b was made a v a i l a b l e . I a s k e d h i m w h e r e i t

was. He t o l d me i t was i n San F r a n c i s c o . I t h o u g h t a b o u t i t

o v e r n i g h t a n d d e c i d e d I ' d t a k e i t . I t o l d h i m t h e n e x t d a y

t h a t I wou ld a c c e p t t h a t . He i m m e d i a t e l y c a l l e d h e a d q u a r t e r s

a s k i n g them abou t i t . The word was t h a t t h e r e w a s n ' t any

money f o r any p r o m o t i o n o r t r a n s f e r s , so I had t o f o r g e t i t

f o r a w h i l e . I d e c i d e d , w e l l I can h o l d on f o r a l i t t l e w h i l e

y e t w i t h t h e new f i s c a l y e a r coming up t h e f i r s t o f J u l y , t h e y

c o u l d n ' t use t h a t excuse o f no money. I f I d i d n ' t g e t i t

t h e n , I ' d s t a r t l o o k i n g f o r some th ing e l s e . I was b e i n g

i n t e r v i e w e d by i n d u s t r y and I was u s i n g t h a t as k i n d o f an

a c e - i n - t h e - h o l e t o h o l d back on, b u t I w a s n ' t g o i n g t o s i t

a round f o r e v e r and w a i t f o r some th ing w i t h no p romise .

I t was j u s t a v e r y s h o r t t i m e t h o u g h t h a t he c a l l e d me.

I was mak ing an i n s p e c t i o n o f a f l o u r m i l l . I g o t c a l l e d o u t

i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e i n s p e c t i o n and was t o l d my boss wanted t o

t a l k t o me. Roy t o l d me t h a t my p r o m o t i o n and t r a n s f e r had

been app roved t o San F r a n c i s c o , and w o u l d be e f f e c t i v e t h e 1 s t

o f A p r i l . T h i s was e a r l y March. So I f i n i s h e d up t h a t i n -

s p e c t i o n i n r e c o r d t i m e . It was N A I (No A c t i o n I n d i c a t e d ) .

I went back home and s t a r t e d mak ing p r e p a r a t i o n s t o move t o

San F r a n c i s c o . We f o r t u n a t e l y had a b u y e r , i n t h e w ings , f o r

o u r house a l r e a d y . Peop le had t o l d us i f we e v e r s o l d i t t h e y

wanted t o have f i r s t c r a c k a t i t . They d i d n ' t buy i t , b u t

t h e y had a f r i e n d t h a t two days l a t e r d i d . So we moved i t

r e a l q u i c k l i k e t h a t and we were on o u r way by t h e 1 s t o f

A p r i l , j u s t a b o u t t h r e e weeks l a t e r .

L o f s v o l d : D i d you f i n d t h e i n s p e c t i o n work much d i f f e r e n t

h e r e t h a n i t had been i n S t L o u i s ?

H i l l : The i n s p e c t i o n w o r k i t s e l f was n o d i f f e r e n t . The o n l y

t h i n g t h a t made i t d i f f e r e n t was t h e s i z e o f t h e i n d u s t ~ r i e s .

They w e r e a b s o l u t e l y t r e m e n d o u s , c o m p a r e d w i t h t h e ones we h a d

i n t h e m i d w e s t . These p l a n t s o u t h e r e j u s t d w a r f a n y t h i n g we

h a d b a c k t h e r e . I t ' s d i f f e r e n t i n t h e s i z e , i n t h e c o m p l e x i t y

a n d i t makes t h e i n s p e c t o r t h i n k a n d w o r k a l i t t l e b i t h a r d e r ,

I t h i n k . B u t t h e p r o b l e m s w e r e t h e same. T h i s was t h e t h i n g

...I know Roy when I was c o m i n g o u t h e r e , h e was t e a s i n g me I

g u e s s h e s a i d , "You d o n ' t w a n t t o go o u t t h e r e , San F r a n c i s c o

i s a d o - n o t h i n g d i s t r i c t . They n e v e r h a v e a n y a c t i o n s Ou t

t h e r e . " And when y o u l o o k e d a t t h e r e c o r d t h a t i s w h a t i t

was, t o o . T h e y ' d h a v e o n e o r t w o a c t i o n s a y e a r . Where b a c k

t h e r e i f we d i d n ' t h a v e an a c t i o n a m o n t h , we w e r e n ' t d o i n g

o u r j o b . T h a t ' s an i n d i v i d u a l i n s p e c t o r , i f h e d i d n ' t h a v e a

p r o s e c u t i o n c a s e a m o n t h , he w a s n ' t d o i n g h i s j o b .

So, I came o u t h e r e a n d I g u e s s t h e f i r s t week I was

h e r e , I know A1 B a r n a r d was t i c k l e d t o d e a t h t o h a v e me o u t

h e r e . A l , h e was i n t e r e s t e d i n o v e r - t h e - c o u n t e r d r u g w o r k a n d

i n s a n i t a t i o n work b o t h a n d h e r e I h a d e x p e r i e n c e i n b o t h o f

them. He seemed t o b e v e r y h a p p y t h a t I was g o i n g t o come o u t

here , The f i r s t t i m e I l e f t %he o f f i c e , h e s e n t me o u t w i t h

B i l l Dada. B i l l was s u p p o s e d t o show me a r o u n d t o w n , w h e r e

t h e p l a n t s w e r e a n d e v e r y t h i n g and h e was g o i n g t o t a k e me

a r o u n d and i n t r o d u c e me t o t h e a r e a . I was g o i n g t o i n t r o d u c e

h i m t o how we d i d t h i n g s i n S t . L o u i s . We w e n t t o a w a r e h o u s e

i n San F r a n c i s c o . We f o u n d some s p i c e s , some p e p p e r s a n d some

c o r i a n d e r seed, t h a t was g r o s s l y i n f e s t e d . I' h a d n e v e r s e e n

c o r i a n d e r seed ; d i d n ' t know w h a t i t was, e x c e p t t h e y s a i d i t

was some k i n d o f a s p i c e . B i l l , he w o u l d n ' t h a v e a n y t h i n g t o

do w i t h wha t I was d o i n g . I s a i d , " t h i s i s s o b a d l y i n f e s t e d

we d o n ' t e v e n n e e d t o t u r n t h i s i n t o t h e l a b o r a t o r y . We c a n

make a f i e l d e x a m i n a t i o n a n d I ' m p r e t t y s u r e t h a t h e a d q u a r t e r s

w i l l b u y i t , b e c a u s e I ' v e b e e n d o i n g i t i n S t . L o u i s . ' ' I

s a i d , "Iw a n t some j a r s a n d a s i e v e a n d w e ' l l do t h e e x a m i n a -

t i o n r i g h t h e r e . " B i l l s a i d h e ' s n o t h a v i n g a n y t h S n g t o d o

w i t h i t , b u t h e ' d go g e t me my j a r s a n d h e ' d h e l p me. We d i d

i t . We s c o o p e d a p i l e o f c o r i a n d e r s e e d o u t o f t h e s a c k ,

t h r o w i t on t h e s i e v e a n d I ' d c o u n t t h e i n s e c t s . We'd m a r k

o f f p o r t i o n s o f t h e b o t t o m o f t h e s i e v e . We m i g h t h a v e an

e s t i m a t e d 2 o r 3 h u n d r e d i n a q u a r t e r o f t h e s i e v e b o t t o m .

- We'd p i c k up a n o t h e r p i n t j a r , p u t t h e l i d on i t , t u r n i t i n

f o r t h e r e s e r v e . I r e c o r d e d t h e f i n d i n g s i n my d i a r y , came

b a c k i n t o t h e o f f i c e , f i l l e d o u t t h e a n a l y t i c a l w o r k s h e e t , a n d

t u r n e d i t i n . A1 B a r n a r d p i c k e d up t h e t e l e p h o n e a n d p h o n e d

t h e s e i z u r e i n a n d w i t h i n a week we h a d a s e i z u r e made a n d t h e

l a b h a d n e v e r s e e n i t . I t k i n d o f s e t t h i n g s on t h e i r e a r o u t

h e r e . They h a d n e v e r s e e n a n y t h i n g l i k e t h i s , o p e r a t e d l i k e

t h i s . So, I was t i c k l e d t o d e a t h , I t h i n k , t h a t I j u s t came

o u t h e r e a n d we g o t t h i n g s m o v i n g l i k e t h a t .

I know v e r y e a r l y , i n t h e f i r s t week o r so he t o o k me t o

a p i c k l e p l a n t . A1 a s k e d me w h a t h a d I b e e n d o i n g I s a i d ,

"We1 1 , I ' v e b e e n d o i n g w a r e h o u s e s and p i c k l e p l a n t s b a c k t h e r e

r e c e n t ly . " So he s e n t me o u t t o do a p i c k l e p l a n t . B i l l

s a i d , " T h e r e ' s no u s e g o i n g , b e c a u s e t h e y d o n ' t s h i p a n y t h i n g

o u t o f t h e s t a t e . " W e l l , t h a t i s a l l r i g h t w e ' l l go make t h e

i n s p e c t i o n anyway. We made i t . It was f i l t h y , h e a v i l y i n -

f e s t e d w i t h f r u i t f l i e s , d r o s o p h i l s , and some r o d e n t s . I

a s k e d t h e man i f he d i d a n y i n t e r - s t a t e b u s i n e s s . He S a i d ,

"No, d i d n ' t s h i p a n y t h i n g . " I s a i d . "Can I s e e y o u r s h i p p i n g

r e c o r d s ? " He h a n d e d t h e m o u t t o me. They h a d h a u l e d a t r u c k -

l o a d o f p i c k l e s o v e r t o t h e d o c k s i n San F r a n c i s c o f o r s h i p -

men t t o H o n o l u l u , t h a t m o r n i n g . B u t he f e l t t h a t wasn l ' t

i n t e r - s t a t e . W e l l , we g o t t h o s e p i c k l e s s e i z e d , n a t u r a l l y , i n

H o n o l u l u and we w e r e i n b u s i n e s s . We ended up p r o s e c u t i n g h i m

s o m e t i m e l a t e r . H i s p i c k l e s . . . They w e r e p a c k i n g one g a l l o n

j a r s o f p i c k l e s , a n d as t h e y f i l l e d t h e j a r s , j u s t b e f o r e t h e y

w e r e p u t t i n g t h e m i n t h e c a r t o n s , we w e r e p i c k i n g t h e m u p and

l o o k i n g a t t hem and we w e r e f i n d i n g l i v e m a g g o t s i n t h e j a r s

y e t . They w e r e s t i l l a l i v e , a s t h e y w e r e p u t t i n g them i n t h e

c a s e s .

I had an a b s o l u t e f i e l d day f o r t h e f i r s t y e a r o r so o u t

h e r e ; i t was l i k e v i r g i n t e r r i t o r y . F o r y e a r s , t h e o n l y way I

c o u l d f i g u r e o u t was t h a t t h e i n s p e c t o r s had b e e n t o l d " n o " so

many t i m e s , t h a t t h e y had n e g l e c t e d t o l o o k , and t o ask, and

t o d i g . B u t I know t h e r e was t i m e a f t e r t i m e , i f y o u ' d go i n

a n d ask t h e p l a n t m a n a g e r s i f t h e y w e r e d o i n g i n t e r - s t a t e

b u s i n e s s , t h e y ' d t e l l y o u no. W e l l , a l o t o f t h e i n s p e c t o r s

w o u l d t u r n a r o u n d a n d w a l k o u t t h e n . T h a t ' s n o t t h e way I

o p e r a t e d . I ' d go a h e a d a n d make t h e i n s p e c t i o n , a s k them, i f

t h e y s a i d " n o " , t h e n I ' d s a y I w a n t t o s e e y o u r r e c o r d s . And

9 t i m e s o u t o f 1 0 t h e r e i t was i n t h e r e c o r d s . And y o u ' d t a k e

o f f a n d go t h e n .

One o f my v e r y e a r l y ones , I g o t i n t o , was t h e c a n n e d

a r t i c h o k e i n d u s t r y h e r e . I ' d n e v e r been i n t h i s t y p e o f c a n -

n e r y , n e v e r s e e n an a r t i c h o k e . I g o t i n t o t h e p l a n t o n

a n o t h e r a s s i g n m e n t , h e a r d t h e m a c h i n e r y r u n n i n g , a n d a s k e d

t h e m w h a t t h e y w e r e d o i n g . They w e r e d u m p i n g t h e s e t h i n g s o u t

b y t r a i l e r l o a d s b a c k i n t o b i g h o p p e r s . T h e y ' d p e e l o f f t h e

o u t e r l e a v e s o f t h e a r t i c h o k e a n d c u t i t down t o a h e a r t a n d

w e r e p u t t i n g t h e m i n c a n s . I saw t h a t t h e s e h e a r t s w e r e i n -

f e s t e d w i t h worms. They w o u l d h a v e h o l e s e a t e n i n t o t h e m a n d

b e a l l o f f u l l o f w e b b i n g a n d f r a s s . I made a number o f

c o u n t s o f c a n s t h a t , w e r e g o i n g r i g h t i n t o t h e e x h a u s t e r , b e -

f o r e t h e e x h a u s t i n g a n d t h e s e a l i n g o r p u t t i n g t h e l i d s o n

them. I w o u l d make a c o u n t p e r can, s o many i n f e s t e d o n e s p e r

c a n , s o many c a n s , s o I r e c o r d a l l t h a t d a t a . I r e p o r t e d i t ,

we g o t o f f i c i a l s a m p l e s , c o n f i r m e d t h a t , y e s t h e y do h a v e

worms i n them. They a r e i n s e c t e d i n f e s t e d a n d we made some

s e i z u r e s . T h e r e w a r e worms i n t h e c i t r i c a c i d b a t h a l s o . I

know t h e i n d u s t r y members came i n r a t h e r h o t u n d e r t h e c o l l a r a t o t a l k t o M r . M c K i n n o n a b o u t i t . He h a d t h e m a l l s i t t i n g

a r o u n d h i s t a b l e i n h i s o f f i c e a n d b e f o r e t h e m e e t i n g s t a r t e d

h e p a s s e d a p h o t o g r a p h a r o u n d o f o n e o f t h e a r t i c h o k e s . The

p h o t o g r a p h was made b y t h e c h e m i s t , P a u l J o r g e n s o n . H e ' d c u t

t h e a r t i c h o k e h e a r t i n h a l f and o p e n e d i t u p a n d t h i s l a r v a

was l a y i n g r i g h t i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e a r t i c h o k e h e a r t . I t was

p r o b a b l y 3 1 4 o f an i n c h i n l e n g t h , i n r e a l i t y , b u t P a u l h a d

made an 8 X 10 b l o w - u p o f t h e a r t i c h o k e h e a r t . T h i s made t h e

worm l o o k l i k e a s n a k e o r s o m e t h i n g l a y i n g t h e r e . M r .

M c K i n n o n p a s s e d t h i s p h o t o a r o u n d . M c K i n n o n s a i d , h e j u s t

w a n t e d e v e r y b o d y t o know t h a t t h i s i s w h a t we a r e t a l k i n g

a b o u t , t o d a y . The f i g h t j u s t m e l t e d r i g h t o u t o f t h e j n d u s t r y

g r o u p . A l l t h e y w e r e w a n t i n g t o know f r o m t h e n on was how t h e y

c o u l d g e t o u t o f t h i s p r o b l e m , t h e e a s i e s t way o r w i t h t h e

l e a s t t r a u m a f o r t h e m s e l v e s . I t t u r n e d o u t t h a t t h a t r e v o l u -

t i o n i z e d t h a t i n d u s t r y .

I l e a r n e d a w h o l e l o t a b o u t i t . T h i s i n s e c t i s a m o t h ,

i t i s c a l l e d t h e p l u m e m o t h and t h e l a r v a e e a t t h e i r way i n t o

t h e bud, w h i c h i s t h e a r t i c h o k e , a n d i t a p p a r e n t l y a f f e c t s

o n l y t h i s p a r t i c u l a r p l a n t . The i n d u s t r y was n o t d o i n g a n y -

t h i n g t o e r a d i c a t e o r c o n t r o l t h e p l u m e m o t h , a t t h a t t i m e . So

t h e y d i d s t a r t a p e s t i c i d e s p r a y p r o g r a m t o t r y t o c o n t r o l i t .

And a s a r e s u l t , I t h i n k we c a n h a v e much b e t t e r a r t i c h o k e s

t h e s e days . Much f r e e r o f i n s e c t s t h a n t h e n . I t k i n d o f

w r e c k e d t h a t i n d u s t r y f o r a y e a r o r s o u n t i l t h e y g o t t h e i r

a c t t o g e t h e r b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e o u t o f b u s i n e s s , f r o m c a n n i n g

a r t i c h o k e h e a r t s , a n d t h a t i s a g o u r m e t f o o d , a v e r y e x p e n s i v e

p r o d u c t .

B u t I was k i n d o f i n n o c e n t a n d n a i v e a b o u t t h e i n d u s t r y

o u t h e r e a n d t h a t was o n e o f t h o s e t h i n g s I ' v e n e v e r s e e n o r

h e a r d o f , b e i n g b a c k i n t h e m i d w e s t , a n d I j u s t s t u m b l e d i n t o

i t .

One o r t h e t w o , p r o b a b l y t h e t w o m o s t n o t e w o r t h y i n v e s t i -

g a t i o n s o r i n s p e c t i o n s I got i n t o h e r e i n San F r a n c i s c o w e r e

i n o n e y e a r , I g u e s s , I ' v e been h e r e f o r c o u p l e o r 3 y e a r s

anyway a n d A1 B a r n a r d t o l d me t h a t t h e n u t i n d u s t r y h a d n ' t

b e e n g i v e n t o o much i n s p e c t i o n a n d maybe I ' d l i k e t o l o o k i n t o

t h a t . So I d i d . I n f a c t , I c o v e r e d b o t h t r e e n u t s a n d d r i e d

f r u i t s b e c a u s e many o f t h e m w e r e w o r k i n g t o g e t h e r . D u r i n g

t h a t w i n t e r , I h a d Bob B u n k e r , who was a new i n s p e c t o r . He

was a r e a l g u n g - h o e n t h u s i a t i c y o u n g man, a n d we became known

as t h e B u n k e r - H i l l team, i n t h e d r i e d f r u i t i n d u s t r y o u t h e r e .

We'd go i n a n d s i g n o u r n o t i c e o f i n s p e c t i o n R o b e r t B u n k e r

a n d W i l l i a m H i 1 1, a n d t h e i n d u s t r y p i c k e d i t u p r e a l q u i c k , a s

t h e B u n k e r - H i 1 1

I n t h e n u t i n d u s t r y I t h i n k we h a d l e g a a c t i o n s i n e v e r y

f i r m t h a t we e v e r w e n t i n t o b u t one, a n d t h a t was D i a m o n d

W a l n u t i n S t o c k t o n , t h e b i g g e s t o n e i n t h e w o r l d . We w e n t

t h r o u g h t h a t p l a c e , s e a r c h e d a n d s e a r c h e d a n d s e a r c h e d a n d I

t h i n k we f o u n d t w o m o t h s o r s o m e t h i n g , we saw f l i t t i n g a r o u n d

t h e p l a n t . T h i s p l a n t c o v e r e d a c r e s , a c r e s . They c o u l d t a k e

a w h o l e f r e i g h t t r a i n i n s i d e t h e p l a n t f o r l o a d i n g and u n l o a d -

i n g . B u t i n a l l t h e r e s t o f them, i t was a b s o l u t e l y h o r r i b l e .

I remember o n e l i t t l e o l d one-man o p e r a t i o n down i n San

J o s e . You t a l k a b o u t a c u s t o m s h e l l e r , h e was i t . . He w o u l d

c r a c k t h e n u t s o u t b y hand. T h i s was w a l n u t s . C r a c k ahem o u t

b y h a n d and t h e n h e ' d t a k e e a c h k e r n e l and w i t h a t o o t h b r u s h ,

he was b r u s h i n g t h e k e r n e l . The o n l y t h i n g i s , h e ' d h o l d t h e

k e r n e l i n h i s hand, h e ' d b r u s h i t l i k e t h a t , b l o w on i t.

WHEW. H e ' d b r u s h i t , he was g e t t i n g i t r e a l c l e a n , h e was

b l o w i n g on e v e r y one, t o h e l p b l o w t h e d u s t o f f . H i s was t h e

r e a l e x p e n s i v e t y p e . I t i s u s e d t o s i t on t o p o f a p i e c e o f

c a n d y o r s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t y o u know.

L o f s v o l d : P e r f e c t w a l n u t .

H i l l : P e r f e c t w a l n u t . We f o u n d a l l k i n d s o f i n s t a n c e s o f

i n f e s t a t i o n and s u c h i n t h e d r i e d f r u i t i n d u s t r y , p r i m a r i l y

p r u n e s and c u t f r u i t as o p p o s e d t o r a i s i n s . The r a i s i n s w e r e

a l l down i n t h e San J o a q u i n V a l l e y , a r o u n d F r e s n o - B a k e a s f i e l d .

T h a t one I l a r g e l y s t a y e d o u t o f , b u t I w o r k e d i n t h e c u t

f r u i t i n t h e San J o s e - S a n t a C l a r a area. I had t w o r e a l i n t e r -

e s t i n g e x p e r i e n c e s i n t h a t one. We w o r k e d a t one p l a n t down

i n San J o s e and t h e y w e r e p a c k i n g a p r i c o t s , d r i e d a p r i c o t s .

We n o t e d t h a t t h e y w e r e t a k i n g t h e m o u t o f c a r t o n s t h a t w e r e

l a b e l e d as f o r e x p o r t t o R o t t e r d a m . T h e y w e r e o p e n i n g t h e s e

c a r t o n s , d u m p i n g t h e m o u t on a s o r t i n g t r a y , s h a k i n g t h e m up,

d o i n g t h e s o r t , and p a c k a g i n g t h e a p r i c o t s i n c e l l o p h a n e b a g s

f o r a f i r m i n New York , B r o o k l y n o r New York a r e a . W e l l , we

knew i n t h e i n d u s t r y t h a t t h e m e r c h a n d i s e t h a t was d e s t i n e d

f o r e x p o r t was n o t r e a l l y o f t h e b e s t q u a l i t y . I t was u s u a l l y

t h e c u l l s m o r e o r l e s s t h a t t h e y p a c k e d f o r e x p o r t . We l o o k e d

a t t h e s t u f f a s i t was b e i n g p a c k e d a n d y e s i t was o f t h a t

q u a l i t y . We w o u l d f i n d p i e c e a f t e r p i e c e w i t h mouse p e l l e t s

o r b e e t l e s o r s o m e t h i n g i n b e d d e d i n them. And t h e s e w e r e

g o i n g i n t o t h e c e l l o p h a n e p a c k a g e s . They w e r e h a u l i n g t h e m

r i g h t o u t o f t h e p l a n t , p u t t i n g t h e m on a b i g t r u c k . We

t a l k e d t o t h e t r u c k d r i v e r a n d h e h a d a b i l l o f l a d i n g a n d was

t o h a u l t h e m up t o San F r a n c i s c o a n d u n l o a d t h e m o n a c e r t a i n

d o c k a n d t h e y w e r e g o i n g on a s h i p t o New York . I c a l l e d A1

B a r n a r d and t o l d h i m t h a t we w a n t e d some s a m p l e s o f t h e l o a d

a s soon as t h e y w e r e u n l o a d e d on t h e d o c k . I t o l d h i m w h a t we

w e r e f i n d i n g . We f i n i s h e d o u r i n s p e c t i o n , a n d r e p o r t e d a l l

o u r f l n d i n g s t o t h e management o f c o u r s e . When t h e s h i p g o t

t o New York , t h e s e i z u r e was a1 r e a d y w a i t i n g . The M a r s h a l

s e i z e d i t a s s o o n a s t h e y u n l o a d e d i t i n New York . Then t h e

f i r m came i n s c r e a m i n g t o M r . M c K i n n o n a b o u t t h e s e i z i n g o f

t h e i r a p r i c o t s . Then t h e s t o r y s t a r t e d t o u n f o l d . They s a i d

t h a t t h e y h a d p u r c h a s e d t h o s e a p r i c o t s f r o m o n e o f t h e b i g g e s t

m a n u f a c t u r e r s , b i g g e s t h a n d l e r s i n t h e a r e a . And i t t u r n e d

o u t w h a t h a d happened , t h e y g o t t h e c o n t r a c t f r o m t h i s New

Y o r k f i r m f o r s o many t h o u s a n d o f c a s e s o f a c e r t a i n s i z e

a p r i c o t . They d i d n ' t h a v e e n o u g h a p r i c o t s t o f i l l t h e o r d e r ,

s o t h e y w e n t a r o u n d t o t h e i r c o m p e t i t o r s a n d t r i e d t o b u y

t h e s e a p r i c o t s s o t h e y c o u l d f i l l t h i s c o n t r a c t a n d n o b o d y

w o u l d s e l l a p r i c o t s t o them. So t h e y h a d a c t u a l l y s e t up a

dummy c o r p o r a t i o n i n San F r a n c i s c o a n d a s k e d f o r b i d s f o r e x -

p o r t a p r i c o t s . The b i g f i r m had b i d on s u p p l y i n g s o many

t h o u s a n d c a s e s o f t h e s e a p r i c o t s f o r e x p o r t . The c o n t r a c t was

F.O.B. t h e d o c k s i n San F r a n c i s c o . They p a c k e d t h e m a n d

h a u l e d t h e m t o San F r a n c i s c o , u n l o a d e d t h e m o n t o t h e d o c k s a n d

t h i s o t h e r f i r m t h e n comes up a n d p i c k s t h e m a l l up a n d h a u l s

t h e m b a c k down t o San J o s e a n d r e p a c k s t h e m a l l . They g o t

c a u g h t . I t was s t u p i d . ..we, t h e i n s p e c t o r s w a l k e d i n a n d

s t o o d t h e r e a n d w a t c h e d t h e m do i t . Oh, t h e y d i d n ' t h a v e a n y

f i g h t . When t h e s t o r y u n f o l d e d t h e y d i d n ' t h a v e a l e g t o

s t a n d on. So, t h e y l o s t t h a t one. The management o f t : h a t

f i r m s t i l l s h a k e s , I u n d e r s t a n d , when I am w a l k i n g a r o u ~ n d i n

t h e a r e a down t h e r e . They s t i l l remember. They s t i l l t a l k

a b o u t i t .

A n o t h e r f i r m t h a t I h a d a l o t o f f u n w i t h was P l a n l t e r ' s

P e a n u t s . They h a d a b i g p l a n t r i g h t o f f o f B a y Shore Freeway.

j u s t as y o u come i n t o San F r a n c i s c o . I t h a d n ' t been i n s p e c t -

ed f o r y e a r s , I mean, g i v e n a r e a l i n s p e c t i o n . B u n k e r and I

w e n t i n t o t h a t p l a n t and we t o l d t h e m who we w e r e a n d wihat we

w a n t e d t o do. The m a n a g e r g a v e u s a b o u t a 3 0 m i n u t e w a l k

t h r o u g h a n d we w e r e b a c k u p and t h e y w e r e u s h e r i n g u s o u t t h e

f r o n t d o o r . We'd h a d o u r i n s p e c t i o n . I a l l o w e d a s how we

w e r e r e a d y t o make t h e i n s p e c t i o n . We'd h a d t h e t o u r ; now we

w e r e r e a d y t o make t h e i n s p e c t i o n . We s t a r t e d i n . A g a i n we

s p e n t t h e b e t t e r p a r t o f a week t h e r e . The i n s i d e s o f a l l t h e

s p o u t i n g a n d c o n v e y i n g s y s t e m s , t h r o u g h o u t t h e p l a n t , h a d

a b o u t a 1 / 2 i n c h c o a t i n g o f i n s e c t w e b b i n g on t h e i n s i d e .

H o r r i b l y i n f e s t e d . We h a d m i c e , we h a d m o t h s , we h a d t h e saw-

t o o t h g r a i n b e e t l e s , we h a d e v e r y t h i n g i n t h e r e . I k e p t t e l l -

i n g t h i s man, t h e manager , h i s name was Guppy, t h a t I f e l t

t h a t t h i s was t h e m o s t h e a v i l y i n f e s t e d f o o d p l a n t t h a t I h a d

e v e r b e e n i n s i n c e I h a d b e e n a Food a n d D r u g I n s p e c t o r . He

d i d n ' t t h i n k i t was t o o b a d a t a l l . He d i d n ' t t h i n k i t was

i n f e s t e d a t a l l . We made a w h o l e b u n c h o f s e i z u r e s o f h i s

p r o d u c t s . We e x a m i n e d h i s p e a n u t s , w h i c h w e r e a l l i n t e r -

s t a t e ; n o n e o f t h e m r a i s e d o u t h e r e . So we e x a m i n e d p e a n u t s

t o make s u r e t h a t t h e y w e r e n ' t i n f e s t e d . Then we c o l l e c t e d

o u r s a m p l e s o f f i n i s h e d p r o d u c t s a n d we f o u n d t h e i n s e c t s i n

t h e f i n i s h e d p r o d u c t s , s o we h a d a n e x c e l l e n t 3 0 1 ( k ) c a s e ,

r i g h t t h e r e . We c o l l e c t e d t h e s a m p l e s , we a n a l y z e d t h e m i n

t h e l a b , a n d a s t h e s e w e r e c o l l e c t e d on t h e i r p r e m i s e s , we

s e n t t h e m a c o p y o f a n a l y t i c a l r e p o r t s a s we w e r e r e q u i r e d t o

do. A f t e r h e r e c e i v e d t h o s e a n a l y t i c a l r e p o r t s , s h o w i n g t h e

i n s e c t s i n t hem, he s h i p p e d t h e s t u f f . So we made m o r e s e i -

z u r e s i n A l a s k a a n d a f e w o t h e r p l a c e t o o . He e n d e d u p

p r o s e c u t i n g them.

I n t h e m e a n t i m e I was made a c o m p l i a n c e o f f i c e r , a Food

a n d D r u g O f f i c e r . When t h e c a s e was c a l l e d , t h e j u d g e w a n t e d

a r e i n s p e c t i o n . Mac t o l d me t h a t I s h o u l d go b a c k and make

t h e i n s p e c t i o n b e c a u s e I h a d made t h e o r i g i n a l o n e s a n d knew

w h e r e t o l o o k . The p l a n t was c o n s i d e r a b l y c l e a n e d u p b y t h e n .

They h a d f l o w n t h e i r s a n i t a t i o n man f r o m t h e i r home p l a n t b a c k

i n V i r g i n i a . I a s k e d h i m how i n t h e w o r l d he e v e r l e t t h e

p l a n t g e t i n t h a t s h a p e i n t h e f i r s t p l a c e . He s a i d t h e y

d i d n ' t know i t . I t t u r n e d o u t t h a t t h e man h e r e , Guppy, h a d

n e v e r r e p o r t e d t o t o p management on t h e i n s p e c t i o n , o r a n y o f

t h e a c t i o n s . They w e r e c a u g h t c o m p l e t e l y b y s u r p r i s e . Guppy

was up f o r a b o a r d member j o b and h e was a f r a i d t h a t i f we

s a i d a n y t h i n g h e w o u l d n ' t g e t t h e j o b . So he l e d t h e f i r m

r i g h t down t h e p r i m r o s e p a t h . Go t t h e m p r o s e c u t e d , s e a z e d , a

l o t o f n o t o r i e t y . The p l a n t i s no l o n g e r t h e r e . I t i f now a

f u r n i t u r e s t o r e a g e w a r e h o u s e .

L o f s v o l d : Was y o u r w o r k t h e r e w i t h t h e d r i e d f r u i t a n d t h e

n u t i n d u s t r y , was t h a t one o f t h e r e a s o n s t h e n t h a t l a t e r

i n s t i t u t e d t h e i r own s a n i t a t i o n p r o g r a m ?

H i l l : Yes i t was. I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n t h e e a r l y 6 0 ' s t h a t

t h e D r i e d food A s s e c i a t i o n s t a r t e d t h e i r own p r o g r a m a& 8 i l l

Dada was t h e i r f i r s t s a n i t a r i a n . He, i n t h e m e a n t i m e , h a d

b e e n made t h e R e s i d e n t I n s p e c t o r up a t Spokane, W a s h i n g t o n .

DFA h i r e d h i m away f r o m FDA and s e t u p t h e i r own p r o g r a m . I t

was l a t e r , i n t h e e a r l y 7 0 ' s I know, I was o u t a t a DFA

m e e t i n g a n d A1 T h o r p i n i n t r o d u c i n g me t o t h e g r o u p when h e

made t h a t comment t h a t I was r e s p o n s i b l e , t h e u n d e r l y i n g r e -

s p o n s i b l e o n e f o r t h e m i n i t i a t i n g t h e i r s a n i t a t i o n p r o g r a m .

So t h a t makes me f e e l k i n d o f good, t o o .

L o f s v o l d : F e e l t h a t y o u a c c o m p l i s h e d s o m e t h i n g .

H i l l : Some a c c o m p l i s h m e n t d u r i n g t h i s c a r e e r , d i d s o m e t h i n g

i n t h e r e .

I h a d a n o t h e r b i g i n s p e c t i o n o u t h e r e w i t h C a m p b e l l Soups

u p i n S a c r a m e n t o . We'd h a d an e a r l y r a i n i n t h e summer. W i t h

a l l t h e t o m a t o e s t h a t a r e g r o w n a n d c a n n e d o u t h e r e , i f y o u

h a v e an e a r l y r a i n , i t c a n r e a l l y s c r e w t h i n g s up. The t o m a -

t o e s a r e r e a d y t o h a r v e s t a n d t h e r a i n g e t s on t h e m a n d t h e

p l a n t s t a k e u p t h e w a t e r a n d t s p l i t s t h e s k i n a n d y o u g o t

m o l d a n d i n s e c t p r o b l e m s . We d h a d t h e e a r l y r a i n a n d we a l l @f a n n e d o u t a n d s t a r t e d i n s p e c i n g t h e t o m a t o c a n n e r i e s a f e w

d a y s l a t e r t o s e e w h a t s h a p e t h e t o m a t o e s w e r e i n . One o f t h e

f i r m s t h a t was on my 1 s t was The C a m p b e l l Soup p l a n t u p i n

S a c r a m e n t o . We1 1, t h e r t o m a t o e s t h a t t h e y w e r e g e t t i n g i n

w e r e s a t i s f a c t o r y . T h e r e was n o p r o b l e m w i t h t h e m b u t i n

w a l k i n g t h r o u g h t h e p l a n t , t h i s was a v e r y , v e r y , l a r g e s o u p

m a n u f a c t u r e r , I n o t e d t h e y h a d an awful l o t of paste groducts,

m a c a r o n i , s p a g h e t t i , a n d s u c h t h a t t h e y u s e d i n many o f t h e i r

p r o d u c t s . You c o u l d s e e a n i n s e c t w a l k i n g a c r o s s t h e t o p o f a

b o x h e r e , o n e a c r o s s f r o m a n o t h e r b o x h e r e , a n d I t o l d t h e m

t h e y h a d b e t t e r s t a r t c h e c k i n g some o f t h i s s t u f f y o u a r e

g e t t i n g a n i n f e s t a t i o n p r o b l e m h e r e . T h e r e w e r e t w o o r t h r e e

o t h e r t h i n g s i n t h e r e t h a t d i d n ' t l o o k j u s t r i g h t b u t wle w e r e

p r i m a r i l y t h e r e t o l o o k a t t h e t o m a t o e s . We h a d a l o t o f

p l a n t s t o c o v e r , s o we d i d n ' t s p e n d a w h o l e 1o t o f t i m e t h e r e .

We d i d r e p o r t t o t h e m a n d t o l d t h e m t h e y h a d a p o t e n t i a l p r o b -

l e m t h e r e . We d i d o u r t o m a t o s u r v e y a n d came b a c k t o t ~ h e o f f -

i c e a n d I t o l d A1 B a r n a r d w h a t I ' d s e e n a t t h i s p l a n t a ~ n dI

s a i d , " I ' d l i k e t o go u p t h e r e a n d r e a l l y d i g i n t o t h a t one.

I t h i n k we g o t a p r o b l e m on o u r h a n d s up t h e r e . " So A1 t o l d

me t o go t o i t . I t o o k a y o u n g i n s p e c t o r w i t h me, a t r ~ a i n e e .

We w e n t up a n d we o p e n e d up some o f t h o s e b o x e s a n d s u r 8 e

e n o u g h t h e y w e r e i n f e s t e d . They h a d a l o t o f p r o b l e m s . When

y o u g o t t o d i g g i n g i n t o i t , t h e y h a d a l o t o f p r o b l e m s i n t h e

p l a n t . I t o l d t h e m I w a n t e d t o e x a m i n e some o f t h e s e m a c a r o n i

and n o o d l e p r o d u c t s . They s e t me up a s c r e e n w h e r e we c o u l d

dump t h e s e 3 0 p o u n d b o x e s o u t on t h e s c r e e n and s i e v e tlhem

r e a l q u i c k . I s a i d , " I ' d l i k e t o h a v e y o u b r i n g me, t o s t a r t

w i t h , j u s t b r i n g me a c o u p l e o f c a s e s o f e a c h l o t t h a t y o u ' v e

g o t . " We'd s i e v e a b o x a n d I made t h e c o u n t o f t h e i n s ~ e c t s

p e r box . T h a t n i g h t t h e i r q u a l i t y c o n t r o l man a r r i v e d on t h e

scene f r o m P e n f l s y l v d n i a ; j u s t h a p g e n e d t o be i n t h e arela. We

r e p o r t e d o u r f i n d i n g s t o t h e m on t h e l o t s and t h e q u a l i t y c o n -

t r o l man d r e w t h e l i n e a s w h a t was g o i n g t o be s a t i s f a c t o r y

f o r u s e and w h a t w o u l d n o t be s a t i s f a c t o r y f o r u s e ; s o many

i n s e c t s p e r pound , t h e y w o u l d t r y t o u s e them. O v e r t h ' a t ,

w e l l t h e y ' d s e l l i t f o r h o g f o o d . We t o o k o u t a l m o s t a q u a r t e r

o f a m i l l i o n p o u n d s o f p r o d u c t s t o t h e h o g f a r m s . They

w o u l d n ' t p r o c e s s a n y t h i n g w h i l e we w e r e i n t h e p l a n t t h a t u s e d

m a c a r o n i . We'd go i n t h e n e x t d a y a n d t h e y ' d u s e d i t . They

s a i d t h e y l o o k e d a t i t a n d i t was a l l r i g h t b e f o r e t h e y u s e d

i t .

T h e y a l s o made F r a n c o A m e r i c a n S p a g h e t t i . They made some

o f t h e i r own s p a g h e t t i . They h a d a n o p e r a t i o n t o make t h i s

s p a g h e t t i a n d s q u e e z e i t r i g h t i n t o t h e can. I t was a g o o d

o p e r a t i o n e x c e p t t h a t t h e e q u i p m e n t was i n f e s t e d t o o . We g o t

s a m p l e s o f t h e p r o d u c t t h a t was o n i t s way t o H a w a i i a n d c o n -

f i r m e d t h e i n s e c t i n f e s t a t i o n i n t h e f i n i s h e d p r o d u c t . We g o t

a s e i z u r e t h r o u g h . It c o u l d n ' t o f h a p p e n e d a t a b e t t e r t i m e ,

i n s o f a r a s we w e r e c o n c e r n e d p r o b a b l y ; h o r r i b l e f o r them.

H o n o l u l u p a p e r s came o u t a n d t h e y h a d an a r t i c l e o n DES i n

c h i c k e n s a n d i t s p o t e n t i a l t o c a u s e c a n c e r , h a d a s e i z u r e o f

C a m p b e l l s o u p s , m a c a r o n i p r o d u c t s a n d a n o t h e r a r t i c l e on DDT

i n b u t t e r a n d m i l k , a l l i n t h r e e c o l u m n s . Management came i n

t o t a l k t o M r . Mac a b o u t t h i s and w a n t e d t o know how t h e y

c o u l d g e t o u t o f t h i s p r o b l e m . They d i d n ' t w a n t a n y m o r e s e i -

z u r e s made, o r b a d p u b l i c i t y . How c o u l d t h e y p r e v e n t i t . O l d

Mac a l l o w e d as how h e t h o u g h t t h a t we m i g h t n o t make a n y m o r e

s e i z u r e s i f we c o u l d b e a s s u r e d t h a t t h i s f i l t h y s t u f f w a s n ' t

g o i n g t o go t o t h e c o n s u m e r s . They a s k e d , " W e l l , how c a n we

p r e v e n t t h a t ? " M r . Mac r e p l i e d , " I t ' s v e r y s i m p l e g e n t l e m e n ,

y o u j u s t g e t i t o f f t h e m a r k e t . " They p u l l e d b a c k a b o u t t e n

t h o u s a n d c a s e s o f F r a n c o A m e r i c a n S p a g h e t t i , h a u l e d i t t o t h e

dump a n d b u r i e d i t w i t h o u t b a t t i n g an eye . T h a t was w r i t t e n

up i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t a l R e p o r t t h a t y e a r . T h a t was a s i z e a b l e

v o l u n t a r y c o r r e c t i o n . V o l u n t a r y c o r r e c t i o n s a r e n o t s o m e t h i n g

r e a l l y new and y o u a n d I know w e ' v e b e e n d o i n g i t f o r y e a r s ,

b u t t h a t was q u i t e a l a r g e v o l u n t a r y c o r r e c t i o n .

L o f s v o l d : Then y o u became Food a n d D r u g O f f i c e r h e r e i n San

F r a n c i s c o , b r i e f l y . Then w e n t t o D a l l a s a t t h e t i m e t h ~ a t t h a t

d i s t r i c t o p e n e d ?

H i l l : Yes. A c t u a l l y M r . R a y f i e l d a p p r o v e d my m o v i n g dlown

t h e r e i n A u g u s t , s o we c o u l d g e t o u r d a u g h t e r e n r o l l e d i n

s c h o o l t h e r e a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h e y e a r . He l e t u s g~o down

t h e r e e a r l y . T h e r e w a s n ' t a D i s t r i c t t h e r e y e t . The b ~ u i l d i n g

was s t i l l u n d e r c o n s t r u c t i o n and t h e y c o u l d n ' t f i n d a . job t h a t

t h e y t h o u g h t w o u l d b e s u i t a b l e f o r my t a l e n t s i n D a l l a s . They

d i d n ' t w a n t me t o come b a c k t o San F r a n c i s o , s o I w e n t i n t o

W a s h i n g t o n f o r t h r e e m o n t h s and w o r k e d i n t h e Food A d d i t i v e s

S e c t on up t h e r e . I t h e n r e t u r n e d b a c k t o D a l l a s i n , I g u e s s ,

l a t e November o r e a r l y December o f 1960. The b u i l d i n g s t i l l

was n t s o m p l e t e d , b u t we moved i n t o i t a n d s t a r t e d u n p a i c k i n g

f u r n t u r e and c o m b i n i n g f i l e s f r o m t h r e e d i f f e r e n t d i s t r i c t

o f f i c e s , and t r y i n g t o s e t up a c o m p l e t e l y new o p e r a t i o ~ n . We

h i r e d a b u n c h o f new p e o p l e and i t was a v e r y , v e r y i n t ~ e r -

e s t i n g e x p e r i e n c e . N o t t o o many p e o p l e g e t t o go t h r o u ~ g h t h e

s e t t i n g u p o f a new shop f r o m s c r a t c h .

I remember w h i l e I was i n W a s h i n g t o n t h e y h a d t h e AOAC

c o n f e r e n c e b a c k t h e r e a n d I saw J e s s e Roe a n d J o h n Wea the rwax ,

who h a d b o t h been c h e m s i s t s h e r e i n San F r a n c i s c o w h i l e I was

h e r e . I n o u r p a r t i n g r e m a r k s I s a i d , " W e l l , I'll s e e y o u a l l

i n D a l l a s some o f t h e s e days . " I g u e s s i t was t h e n e x t week I

w e n t o v e r t o BFA a n d t h e y showed me t h e r o s t e r o f t h e p e o p l e

t h a t w e r e g o i n g t o b e i n D a l l a s a n d l o a n d b e h o l d h e r e ' s J o h n

W e a t h e r w a x a n d J e s s e Roe. God, t h e y a r e n e v e r g o i n g t o b e -

l i e v e me a n d I d o n ' t t h i n k I e v e r d i d c o n v i n c e t h e m t h a t I

d i d n ' t know i t a t t h e t i m e t h a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o b e t r a n s -

f e r r e d down t h e r e . I know J o h n came i n t o t h e o f f i c e t h e r e a n d

h i s e y e s l i t u p l i k e a k i d a t C h r i s t m a s t i m e when h e w a l k e d u p

t h e r e t o t h e l a b o r a t o r y a n d saw a l l t h i s b r a n d - s p a n k i n g new

e q u i p m e n t . E v e r y t h i n g b r a n d new; t h e r e w a s n ' t a p i e c e o f u s e d

g l a s s w a r e o r a n y t h i n g i n t h e p l a c e . He r e a l l y h a d a s u r p r i s e d

l o o k on h i s f a c e . T h i s was q u i t e a d e a l . The o n l y t h i n g t h a t

was u s e d was t h e f i l e s a n d a few o f t h e p e o p l e t h a t w e r e

t r a n s f e r r e d i n f r o m o t h e r p l a c e s .

I know I g o t i n s t r u c t i o n s b e f o r e I l e f t W a s h i n g t o n as t o

w h a t my f i r s t h e a r i n g was g o i n g t o b e a n d how I was g o i n g t o

c o n d u c t it. Then tefare i really got ant, I had t w o uf them.

One o f t h e m was an o l d n a t u r o p a t h , I t h i n k h e was, o r some-

t h i n g l i k e t h a t o v e r i n P a l e s t i n e , Texas. He was s e l l i n g a

c a n c e r c u r e . And t h e o t h e r one was t h e i n f a m o u s Tex P a l m e r ,

who was h e a v i l y e n g a g e d i n s e l l i n g c o u n t e r f e i t p r e s c r i p t i o n

down t h e r e . So h e c a l l e d i t f o r m u l a L, i t was h i s m a g i t f o r -

m u l a L, when h e t o o k o v e r f r o m Hoxsey . So w e ' v e c h a s e d t h a t

o n e a r o u n d f o r a l o n g l o n g t i m e t o o . I h a v e b e e n f i g h t i n g

w i t h E r n s t K r e b s f o r a b o u t t w e n t y - f i v e y e a r s now. N e i t h e r o n e

o f u s h a v e won y e t . A t l e a s t we a r e b o t h s t i l l g o i n g .

One' o f my v e r y e a r l y i n v o l v e m e n t s w i t h new d r u g s was i n

San F r a n c i s c o , t h e f i r s t t i m e I was h e r e . I g o t i n t o t h a t

one on k i n d o f a f l u k e , b u t i t i s a s c a r y t h i n g . Back i n

t h o s e d a y s , we h a d o f c o u r s e t h e new d r u g p r o v i s i o n f o r s a f e t y

c h e c k i n g b e f o r e t h e p r o d u c t was p u t on t h e m a r k e t . I g o t i n t o

a d r u g m a n u f a c t u r e r o v e r i n B e r k e l e y , one o f t h e E a s t Bay

c o m m u n i t i e s , o v e r t h e r e . We f o u n d i n t h e i r r e c o r d s t h a t t h e y

w e r e d o i n g some s e r i l e f i l l i n g o f a m p u l s f o r a n o t h e r m a n u f a c -

t u r e r i n t h e E a s t Bay a n d j u s t a l i t t l e n o t e we f o u n d i m

t h e r e , a h a n d w r i t e n n o t e , was f r o m one o f t h e t e s t i n g l a b o r -

a t o r i e s o v e r i n San F r a n c i s c o t h a t d i d t h e p y r o g e n t e s t i n g a n d

h a n d w r i t t e n on t h i s n o t e was, " t h e r a b b i t s d i e d b e f o r e I g o t

t h r o u g h m a k i n g t h e i n j e c t i o n , w h a t d o I do now?" T h a t k i n d o f

makes y o u r e a r s p e r k up when y o u s e e s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t . We

a s k e d t h e m a n u f a c t u r e r w h a t i n s t r u c t i o n s d i d he g i v e them.

" W e l l , we t o l d t h e m t o d i l u t e t h e p r o d u c t lOO0:l a n d t r y i t

a g a i n . " He s a i d , " W e l l , i t was n o n - p y r o g e n , and s o we r e -

l e a s e d t h e l o t . " We w e n t t o t h e t e s t i n g l a b o r a t o r y them t o

t a l k t o t h e t e c h n i c i a n who h a d w r i t t e n t h i s n o t e and s h e t o l d

u s , "Yes , s h e had s t a r t e d i n j e c t i n g t h e r a b b i t and h a d t h e

n e e d l e i n i t s e a r and was i n j e c t i n g t h e p r o d u c t a n d b e f o r e s h e

g o t i t o v e r , t h e r a b b i t j u s t f e l l o v e r dead. " She was v e r y

u n h a p p y , a b o u t k i l l i n g h e r r a b b i t s l i k e t h i s . It t u r n e d o u t

t h a t h e r i n s t r u c t i o n s o r i g i n a l l y w e r e t h a t s h e was t o d i l u t e

t h e p r o d u c t 1000:1, w h i c h s h e h a d done. Af t e r d i l u t i n g i t t h e

f i r s t t i m e a 1000:l t h e n s h e d i l u t e d t h a t s o l u t i o n a g a i n a

1000:l a n d i t d i d n ' t k i l l t h e r a b b i t s a n d d i d n ' t c a u s e t h e

t e m p e r a t u r e t o r i s e s o i t was n o n - p y r o g e n i c a n d t h e p r o d u c t

was r e l e a s e d . I n g o i n g i n t o i t a n d c h e c k i n g f u r t h e r , we w e n t

t o t h e o r i g i n a l m a n u f a c t u r e r t o s e e w h a t h e h a d d o n e w i t h t h e

p r o d u c t . L o a n d b e h o l d we c h e c k e d t h e r e c o r d s a n d f o u n d o u t

t h a t h e h a d a c t u a l l y h a d t h e p r o d u c t r e l e a s e d t o h i m b e f o r e

t h e t e s t s w e r e e v e r c o m p l e t e d . And h e h a d s h i p p e d t h e p r o d u c t

b e f o r e h e ' d e v e r g o t t e n t h e t e s t r e s u l t s o n t h i s l o t . A g r e a t

p o r t i o n o f t h e l o t was m i s s i n g b y t h e t i m e we g o t t h e r e . We

a s k e d h i m w h a t h e ' d d o n e w i t h i t , a n d h e t o l d u s h e ' d g i v e u s

i n f o r m a t i o n who h e s h i p p e d i t t o . We s a i d , " W e r e n ' t y o u ad-

v i s e d o f w h a t i t was d o i n g t o t h e r a b b i t s ? I t was k i l l i n g

t h e m ! " He s a i d , " Y e s , h e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t , h e knew t h a t . " We

s a i d , " T h e n y o u c o n t i n u e d t o s h i p i t ? " He s a i d , "Yes h e c o n -

t i n u e d t o s h i p i t . He h a d i n j e c t e d h i m s e l f w i t h i t , a f t e r h e

f o u n d o u t w h a t i t h a d d i d t o t h e r a b b i t s . " And we s a i d , "What

d i d i t d o t o y o u ? " He s a i d , "Iw e n t i n t o s h o c k , b u t I came

o u t o f i t . " So h e h a d c o n t i n u e d t o s h i p i t . T h i s i s j u s t u n -

h e a r d o f a l m o s t t h a t a n y b o d y w o u l d do s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h i s .

T h a t made u s r e a l l y d i g i n t o h i s o p e r a t i o n , c o n s i d e r a b l y f u r -

t h e r . We f o u n d o u t t h a t he was s h i p p i n g t h e p r o d u c t commer-

c i a l l y w h i c h h e w a s n ' t s u p p o s e t o b e d o i n g .

L o f s v o l d : I t was s t i l l i n t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n a l s t a g e ?

H i l l : I t was s t i l l s u p p o s e d t o b e an IND d r u g , an i n v e s t i g a -

t i o n a l new d r u g . He d i d n o t h a v e i n v e s t i g a t o r s t a t e m e n t s f r o m

t h e p e o p l e t h a t h e was s h i p p i n g i t t o . We b r o u g h t t h i s t o h i s

a t t e n t i o n . F o r t u n a t e l y f o r u s h e a n d t h e o t h e r f i r m w e r e

q u i t e open w i t h us. They l e t u s make p h o t o g r a p h i c c o p i e s o f

a l l t h e s e r e c o r d s . We j u s t w e n t t h r o u g h p a g e b y p a g e amd made

a p h o t o g r a p h o f e v e r y t h i n g t h a t h e had. Then we w e r e a s k e d b y

h e a d q u a r t e r s t o do some m o r e c h e c k i n g t o v e r i f y a f e w t h i n g s .

We w e n t b a c k a n d l o a n d b e h o l d , h e now h a d d o c u m e n t s , d o c u -

m e n t s t h a t p r e v i o u s l y d i d n ' t h a v e d a t e s o n them, now h a d d a t e s

on them. He h a d i n v e s t i g a t o r s t a t e m e n t s b a c k - d a t e d o n h a n d

and a f e w t h i n g s l i k e t h a t . So h e was o b v i o u s l y d o c u m e o t i n g

h i s r e c o r d s a f t e r t h e f a c t . He e v e n t u a l l y g o t c a u g h t . He was

p r o s e c u t e d e v e n t u a l l y . It i s one o f t h e v e r y e a r l y c r i m i n a l

p r o s e c u t i o n s on new d r u g c h a r g e s . I g u e s s h e f i n a l l y w e n t o u t

o f b u s i n e s s .

He was a d e n t i s t b y t r a i n i n g b u t h a d n e v e r p r a c t i c e d d e n -

t i s t r y . He g o t i n t o t h e d e v e l o p m e n t o f new d r u g s . He was

u s i n g b e e f 1 i v e r ; s u p p o s e d l y e x t r a c t i n g t h e enzymes f r o m b e e f

l i v e r s . He s u p p o s e d l y h a d i d e n t i f i e d t h i r t y o r f o r t y o f them.

We c a u g h t h i m on t h e t h i r d o n e a n d g o t h i m p r o s e c u t e d . He

w o u l d d e v e l o p one, g e t i t up t o j u s t about where y o u ' d t h i n k

he was r e a d y t o m a r k e t i t and t h e n s u d d e n l y a f t e r h e ' d g o t t e n

a l o t o f p e o p l e t o i n v e s t t h e i r money i n i t , he w o u l d d r o p

t h a t one and f a d e o u t o f t h e p i c t u r e and l e a v e them h o l d i n g

t h e bag.

L o f s v o l d : It r e a l l y was a s t o c k s w i n d l e , r i g h t ?

H i l l : I t was a s t o c k s w i n d l e . Tha t was t h e way he was mak ing

h i s money.

L o f s v o l d : D i d anybody g e t h u r t f r o m t h e s t u f f he s h i p p e d ?

H i l l : I d o n ' t know t h a t we had any r e a l i n j u r i e s b u t c e r -

t a i n l y t h e p o t e n t i a l s were t h e r e . The p e o p l e t h a t were i n -

v o l v e d i n t h e s t u d i e s . W e l l , t h e y w e r e n ' t i n s t u d i e s , t h e y

were commerc ia l p r o d u c t i o n . They w e r e n ' t d o i n g any s t u d i e s on

t h i s s t u f f . B u t t h i n g s l i k e t h a t g o t us o u r more s t r i n g e n t

1aws.

L o f s v o l d : R i g h t .

H i l l : And v e r y needed laws. T h a t t a k e s me abou t p r e t t y w e l l

t h r o u g h my i n v e s t i g a t i o n a l c a r e e r and t h e n t h r o u g h my days o f

my Food and D r u g O f f i c e r e x p e r i e n c e .

Then, as I say, Sam made me h i s Depu ty down i n D a l l a s ;

t h a t was a s t k i a g mre t k a a a g l o r i f i e d Food aad Drug Officers

j o b a t t h o s e t i m e s . I wou ld s i t i n f o r h i m o c c a s i o n a l l y when

he was o u t o f t h e o f f i c e .

One o t h e r t h i n g t h a t happened h e r e i n San F r a n c i s c o a t

t h e t a i l end o f my c a r e e r as an O p e r a t i n g I n s p e c t o r . The l a s t

o f f i c i a l i n s p e c t i o n t h a t I made was o f t h e G h i r a d e l l i Choco-

l a t e p l a n t . I ' d n e v e r b e e n i n a c h o c o l a t e p l a n t a n d G h i r a -

d e l l i h a d a p p a r e n t l y n o t b e e n i n s p e c t e d f o r y e a r s a n d y e a r s .

N e v e r been g i v e n a r e a l t h o r o u g h g o i n g o v e r . We g o t an i n k -

l i n g o f w h a t we m i g h t r u n i n t o when we w e n t t o t h e r e c e p t i o n

o f f i c e o f t h e c h o c o l a t e p l a n t . They h a d a d i s p l a y c a s e , a

g l a s s f r o n t t o p d i s p l a y c a s e o u t i n t h e l o b b y w i t h s a m p l e s o f

a l l t h e i r p r o d u c t s on d i s p l a y t h e r e . I n l o o k i n g a t t h o s e , we

saw t h e y w e r e i n f e s t e d . Then we w e n t i n t o t h e p l a n t . I t was

a v e r y l a r g e o p e r a t i o n t h a t c o v e r e d t h a t w h o l e c i t y b l a c k o n

t h a t h i l l s i d e u p t h e r e . They made e v e r y t h i n g f r o m b r e a k f a s t

c o c o a t o c h o c o l a t e c o a t i n g t o f i n i s h e d c a n d y b a r s . We f o u n d

j u s t a b o u t e v e r y t y p e o f v i o l a t i o n t h a t y o u c o u l d w a n t . We

h a d r o d e n t s i n t h e p l a n t . . We h a d a l l k i n d s o f i n s e c t s . We

h a d i n f e s t e d r a w m a t e i a l s . We h a d a v e r y c l o s e a s s o c i a t i o n

o f i n s e c t s i n t h e f i n s h e d p r o d u c t s . We h a d v i o l a t i o n s o f t h e

s t a n d a r d s . We g o t on t o t h a t one when c u r i o s i t y made me g e t

u p on a l i t t l e l a d d e r a n d p u t my h a n d o n t h e s i d e o f a b i g v a t

a n d p e e r i n t o i t and I came o u t a n d my h a n d s w e r e b l a c k . I

mean t h e y w e r e b l a c k w i t h s o o t a n d I a s k e d t h e man, "What i s

t h i s ? " He s a i d , " T h d t is the powered c h a r c o a l t h a t we pu t i n

o u r d a r k c h o c o l a t e . " The s t a n d a r d s d o n ' t p r o v i d e f o r p u t t i n g

t h e c h a r c o a l i n d a r k c h o c o l a t e , s o we h a d a v i o l a t i o n o f t h e

s t a n d a r d s t h e r e . A f e w m o r e o f t h e m l i k e t h a t . I n g r e d i e n t

t h a t t h e y w e r e p u t t i n g i n t o t h e i r c h o c o l a t e c o a t i n g , t h e i r

s t a n d a r i z e d c o a t i n g s , t h a t w e r e n o t p e r m i t t e d . We c o l l e c t e d

o u r s a m p l e s on t h e p r e m i s e s , b e c a u s e e v e r y t h i n g t h a t t h e y h a d

was i n t e r s t a t e . They w e r e e i t h e r i m p o r t e d o r b r o u g h t i n t o t h e

s t a t e f r o m o u t s i d e . We c o l l e c t e d a l l o f o u r s a m p l e s a n d

b r o u g h t t h e m b a c k i n t o t h e l a b o r a t o r y . T h a t was a t t h e t i m e

t h a t Food a n d D r u g was i n v o l v e d w i t h c r a n b e r r i e s . We h a d j u s t

a b o u t e v e r y a n a l y s t i n t h e l a b o r a t o r y h e a d o v e r h e e l s e x a m i n -

i n g c r a n b e r r i e s . H e r e I was s e t t i n g w i t h t h i s v e r y v i o l a t i v e

p l a n t on my h a n d s a n d t h e s a m p l e s h e r e a n d n o b o d y t o a n a l y z e

t h e m f o r me. Dr . G e r r i t z , t h e C h i e f C h e m i s t , a n d B a r n a r d a n d

I, we g o t o u r h e a d s t o g e t h e r a n d i t was d e c i d e d t h a t I c o u l d

go t o t h e l a b o r a t o r y a n d I c o u l d s t a r t p r e p a r i n g t h e s a m p l e s

s o t h a t an a n a l y s t c o u l d make t h e f i n a l e x a m i n a t i o n s . So I

s t a r t e d c o o k i n g u p c h o c o l a t e a n d f i l t e r i n g i t a n d d o i n g a l l

t h e w a s h i n g a n d e x t r a c t i o n s a n d p u t t i n g i t on t o f i l t e r p a p e r

s o a n a n a l y s t c o u l d t h e n l o o k a t t h e f i l t e r p a p e r s a n d s e e

w h a t was o n them. On some o f t h e p r o d u c t s , we d i d n ' t h a v e t o

go t h a t f a r b e c a u s e d u r i n g t h e m e l t i n g a n d w a s h i n g p r o c e d u r e s

w h o l e i n s e c t s w o u l d f l o a t u p o u t o f them. We j u s t s t o p p e d

r i g h t t h e r e a n d made t h e s e i z u r e s b a s e d o n t h a t w i t h o u t g o i n g

t o t h e m i c r o s c o p i c e x a m i n a t i o n . I d i d t h a t f o r p r o b a b l y a

c o u p l e o f weeks , w o r k i n g i n t h e l a b o r a t o r i e s on t h o s e s a m p l e s .

Then v e r y s h o r t l y a f t e r t h a t , I was made a Food a n d D r u g

O f f i c e r . I t h e n g o t t o p r o c e s s t h e s e i z u r e s a n d e v e n t u a l l y

h e l d t h e c i t a t i o n h e a r i n g , w r o t e up t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n a n d M r .

Mac s i g n e d i t , s o t h a t t h e r e w o u l d n ' t b e a n y p r e j u d i c e t h e r e .

T h e r e h a v e b e e n some i n t h e o f f i c e , t h a t g a v e me c r e d i t f o r

G h i r a d e l l i S q u a r e b e c a u s e s h o r t l y a f t e r t h e p r o s e c u t i o n t h e

f i r m w e n t o u t o f b u s i n e s s a n d t h e p l a n t was c o n v e r t e d i n t o t h e

G h i r a d e l l i S q u a r e t o u r i s t a t t r a c t i o n .

I came b a c k t o San F r a n c i s c o , d u r i n g J i m G o d d a r d ' s r e i g n

a s C o m m i s s i o n e r . J u s t b e f o r e I l e f t D a l l a s , Sam h a d a s k e d me

i f I vfanted t o go i n t o t h e E x e c u t i v e D e v e l o p m e n t P r o g r a m a n d I

d e c l i n e d c o n s i d e r a t i o n a t t h a t t i m e , e v e n a s k i n g f o r i t . I

f i g u r e d I w a n t e d t o w a i t a n d see w h a t h a p p e n e d i n San

F r a n c i s c o . I w a n t e d t o g e t my f e e t on t h e g r o u n d o u t h e r e .

We w e r e i n t o t h e v o l u n t a r y c o m p l i a n c e a n d m e d i c a t e d f e e d

a r e a q u i t e a b i t a t t h a t t i m e . I know I was g e t t i n g r e a d y t o

go t o S a c r a m e n t o f o r a - M e d i c a t e d Feed Workshop a n d H a r f i s

Kenyon was c o m i n g o u t t o San F r a n c i s c o on a v i s i t a n d Mac

a s k e d me j u s t b e f o r e I l e f t i f t h e r e was a n y t h i n g t h a t I

w a n t e d h i m t o d i s c u s s w i t h H a r r i s , p e r s o n a l l y , b e c a u s e I

w a s n ' t g o i n g t o h a v e t h e o p p o r t u n i t y .

L o f s v o l d : T h a t i s when K e n y o n was t h e F i e l d L i a i s o n O f f i c e r

f o r G o d d a r d ?

H i l l : R i g h t . I t o l d h i m , t h e o n l y t h i n g t h a t I h a d t h a t I

w a n t e d t o know. . .o f c o u r s e i n t h e m e a n t i m e a l o t o f t h e new

d i s t r i c t d i r e c t o r s w e r e f r o m t h e o r i g i n a l E x e c u t i v e D e u e l o p -

m e n t P r o g r a m - - - a n d I a s k e d h i m , "What I w a n t t o know i s i f I

am g o i n g t o h a v e t o go t h r o u g h t h a t p r o g r a m t o g e t a D i s t r i c t

D i r e c t o r ' s j o b . " When I came b a c k M r . Mac s a i d , " W e l l , t h e

a n s w e r i s y e s , y o u a r e g o i n g t o h a v e t o go t h r o u g h i t ." I

s a i d , " W e l l , t h e n l e t ' s g e t o n w i t h i t . I f t h a t i s w h a t I ' v e

g o t t o do, l e t ' s move a n d l e t ' s go." I was g o i n g t h r o u g h some

o l d p a p e r s a n d I f o u n d M a c ' s n o t e s on t h a t a w h i l e b a c k , i n

h i s h a n d w r i t i n g . " Ask H a r r i s K e n y o n d o e s B i l l h a v e t o g o t o

t h e E x e c u t i v e D e v e l o p m e n t ? "Yes."

I a p p l i e d f o r t h e c o u r s e o r t h e t r a i n i n g t h a t summer. I

was c a l l e d i n t o b e i n t e r v i e w e d a n d a s I r e c a l 1 I was i n t e r -

v i e w e d on F r i d a y a n d I came b a c k t o San F r a n c i s c o o n S a t u r d a y .

I t h o u g h t w e l l , I w o n ' t r e p o r t t o Mac o n w h a t w e n t o n a t t h e

i n t e r v i e w . I'll j u s t w a i t a n d s e e h i m o n Monday.. I g u e s s i t

was Sunday t h a t F r a n c e s c a l l e d me a n d t o l d me t h a t Mac h a d

s u f f e r e d a h e a r t a t t a c k on S a t u r d a y a f t e r n o o n a n d s h e was

n a t u r a l l y q u i t e u p s e t . He was i n i n t e n s i v e c a r e a t t h e

h o s p i t a l . T h e r e was n o i n d i c a t i o n a s t o w h a t t h e p r o g n o s i s was

g o i n g t o b e a t t h e t i m e . So t h a t i s t h e way t h a t I w e n t t o

t h e o f f i c e on Monday m o r n i n g .

A c o u p l e o f weeks l a t e r , W i n t o n R a n k i n , who was t h e

D e p u t y C o m m i s s i o n e r c a l l e d me a n d t o l d me t h a t I h a d b e e n

s e l e c t e d f o r Proqrara but t h a t he andt h e E r e c u Z i u e D e v e l ~ ~ e a t

G o d d a r d h a d d e c i d e d t h a t I s h o u l d r e m a i n i n San F r a n c i s c o a s

A c t i n g D i r e c t o r u n t i l i t c o u l d b e d e t e r m i n e d w h a t was g o i n g t o

h a p p e n w i t h Mac. So, t h a t s e t t l e d me down a n d I knew w h a t I

h a d t o d o f o r t h e i m m e d i a t e f u t u r e , anyway. Rank i n t o l d me

t h a t I s h o u l d o p e r a t e t h e D i s t r i c t j u s t l i k e I was g o i n g t o b e

t h e r e f o r e v e r ; t o r u n t h e p l a c e l i k e I f e l t i t s h o u l d b e r u n .

We1 1, I h a d w o r k e d f o r o v e r s i x y e a r s w i t h Sam F i n e i n

D a l l a s a n d I saw t h a t t h i n g s w e r e n o t n e c e s s a r i l y r u n e v e r y -

p l a c e l i k e M r . Mac r a n them. So I s t a r t e d d o i n g some t h i n g s ,

p r o b a b l y t h a t M r . Mac w o u l d n o t h a v e a p p r o v e d o f . I know o n e

t h i n g , Doc G e r r i t z came i n t o me one d a y and he s a i d , " B i l l ,

how a b o u t me h a v i n g a m e c h a n i c a l d i s h w a s h e r ? " I s a i d , " F i n e ,

Doc, y o u f i g u r e o u t a n d t e l l me w h a t y o u w a n t a n d how much i t

i s g o i n g t o c o s t and w e ' l l s e e wha t we c a n do. " They w e r e

s t i l l s t a n d i n g t h e r e , w a s h i n g d i s h e s b y hand, i n t h e l a b . O f

c o u r s e i n D a l l a s we h a d a b i g d i s h w a s h e r and d r i e r . I f i g -

u r e d i f D a l l a s c a n h a v e i t , t h e r e i s no r e a s o n why we a a n ' t

h a v e i t t o o . So Doc came t o me a l i t t l e b i t l a t e r and he h a d

d e c i d e d on t h e d i s h w a s h e r t h a t he w a n t e d . He made o u t t h e

r e q u i s i t i o n and we o r d e r e d t h e damn t h i n g . I t h i n k t h e d i s h -

w a s h e r was $9,000, r o u g h l y . I t c o s t u s $11,000 j u s t t o g e t i t

i n s t a l l e d a n d g e t a d d i t i o n a l power a n d e v e r y t h i n g e l s e t h a t we

needed. I k i n d o f w e n t a t i t b a c k w a r d s , b u t I was n a i v e and

i n n o c e n t . I d i d n ' t know a b o u t a l l t h a t k i n d o f i n s t a l l a t i o n .

I ' d n e v e r b e e n i n v o l v e d i n a n y t h i n g l ike t h a t b e f o r e . ide got

t h e d i s h w a s h e r . Then M r . Mac came b a c k t o work . He was a l i t -

t l e b i t p u s h e d o u t o f s h a p e a b o u t i t c o s t i n g a l l t h a t money.

My r e s p o n s e t o h i m was, " W e l l , Mac i t w i l l p a y f o r i t s e l f i n

t h r e e y e a r s , b e c a u s e o f t h e s a v i n g s i n l a b o r , a n d b e s i d e s t h a t

we w i l l h a v e a b e t t e r j o b o n o u r d i s h e s . " W e l l , t h e d i s h -

w a s h e r i s s t i l l i n o p e r a t i o n . I t s t i l l washes d i s h e s , a l l

t h e s e many y e a r s l a t e r . I t i s s t i l l g o i n g a n d we h a v e o n e

p e r s o n t h a t washes t h e d i s h e s f o r u s a n d we a r e s a v i n g a t

l e a s t t w o p e o p l e , l a b o r w i s e and g e t t i n g a w h o l e l o t b e t t e r

j o b done. W e l l , M r . Mac, h e c o u l d n ' t s e e some o f t h o s e

t h i n g s .

I l o o k b a c k on v e r y f o n d m e m o r i e s o f w o r k i n g w i t h Mac.

I h a v e r e f e r r e d t o h i m as b e i n g l i k e a s e c o n d f a t h e r t o me.

We g o t o f f on a g o o d f o o t a n d f r o m t h e n o n i t seemed l i k e I

c o u l d do n o w r o n g i n s o f a r a s Mac was c o n c e r n e d . I know I

r a i s e d h i s e y e b r o w s a f e w t i m e s , b u t we h a d a v e r y g o o d w o r k -

i n g r e l a t i o n s h i p . V e r y p l e a s i n g t o me. We g o t o f f o n t h a t

f o o t a l i t t l e , o r k i n d o f p e c u l i a r .

When I f i r s t came o u t h e r e I n o t i c e d t h e p e o p l e , t h e y

a c t e d l i k e t h e y w e r e s c a r e d t o d e a t h o f Mac. He d i d , h e h a d a

way o f " b a r k i n g " a t p e o p l e t h a t c o u l d k i n d o f make y o u f e e l

k i n d o f i n s i g n i f i c a n t a n d w a n t t n g t o g e t o u t o f h i s way a n d

such . B a r n a r d was o u t o f t h e o f f i c e once. I was A c t i n g C h i e f

I n s p e c t o r a n d I g o t a n o t e t h a t came u p o n my d e s k . I t h a d my

i n i t i a l s on it, i t s a i d , "See me," a n d i t h a s MCK u n d e r n e a t h

i t . So when I f o u n d o u t a b o u t i t , I h i g h t a i l e d i t i n t o h i s

o f f i c e . I g o t t h e r e a n d h i s s e c r e t a r y was l e a n i n g o v e r h i s

s h o u l d e r a n d t h e y w e r e l o o k i n g a t some p i e c e o f p a p e r t h e r e o n

M a c ' s d e s k . O f c o u r s e , h i s s e c r e t a r y was r a t h e r w e l l endowed

a n d l e a n i n g o v e r h i s s h o u l d e r , a n d h e l i k e d t h a t y o u know. I

s t o p p e d a t t h e d o o r a n d p r e t t y s o o n h e l o o k e d up a n d saw me

s t a n d i n g t h e r e a n d s a i d t o h e r , he d i d n ' t a c k n o w l e d g e me a t

a l l , he s a i d , "What d o e s he w a n t ? " She l o o k e d u p a n d g r i n n e d

a t me and s a i d , "Id o n ' t know" i n r e s p o n s e t o h im. He j u s t

k e p t on r e a d i n g a n d i g n o r e d me s t a n d i n g t h e r e i n t h e d o o r w a y .

P r e t t y s o o n t h e y f i n i s h e d w h a t e v e r t h e y w e r e d o i n g and s h e

l e f t a n d h e l o o k e d u p and s a i d , "What d o y o u w a n t ? " i n h i s

g r u f f " b a r k i n g " way. I s a i d , "Id o n ' t know M r . Mac, I g o t a

n o t e h e r e f r o m y o u t h a t s a i d f o r me t o s e e y o u . " He s a f d

"Does i t s a y f o r y o u t o s e e me r i g h t now?" I s a i d , "No, a l l

i t s a y s i s ' W C H s e e me MCK'. I t d o e s n ' t s a y w h e t h e r t h a t was

y e s t e r d a y , t o d a y , t o m o r r o w o r when, i t j u s t s a y s f o r me t o s e e

y o u , a n d h e r e I am." W e l l , p o o r o l d Mac l o o k e d l i k e somebody

h a d h i t h i m i n t h e h e a d w i t h a hammer o r s o m e t h i n g . I g u e s s

n o b o d y h a d e v e r t a l k e d t o h i m l i k e t h a t . B u t f r o m t h a t d a y

f o r w a r d he n e v e r a t t e m p e d t o cow me o r i n t i m i d a t e me, a t a l l .

He a c c e p t e d me, e s s e n t i a l l y a s a b o s s a n d e m p l o y e e w o r k f n g

t o g e t h e r . I know now t h a t h e p u s h e d me and p u s h e d my c a r e e r ,

w h e r e o t h e r s d i d n ' t f a r e t h a t w e l l w i t h h i m . To me i t was a

s m a l l and v e r y s i m p l e t h i n g . I d i d n o t r e c o g n i z e o r r e a l i z e

o r e v e n t h i n k a n y t h i n g m o r e a b o u t i t , u n t i l a f t e r Mac was

gone , d e a d and b u r i e d . I was t a l k i n g t o F r a n c e s one day . We

w e r e r e m i n i s c i n g . E v e r y t i m e we g e t t o g e t h e r we s t a r t t a l k i n g

a b o u t who knows who and w h e r e t h e y a r e a n d a l l t h i s k i n d o f

s t u f f y o u know. She s t a r t e d r e l a t i n g t h i s s t o r y a b o u t Mac

c o m i n g home one t i m e , h i g h l y i n c e n s e d a n d u p s e t b e c a u s e t h i s

y o u n g i n s p e c t o r h a d s a s s e d h im. She s t a r t e d t e l l i n g me t h e

s p e c i f i c s o f i t . I s a i d , " F r a n c e s , t h a t was me." I t was o n e

o f t h o s e t h i n g s t h a t m e a n t n o t h i n g t o me, b u t a p p a r e n t l y i t

made q u i t e an i m p r e s s i o n o n h im. So much s o t h a t h e came home

a n d was t e l l i n g h i s f a m i l y a b o u t i t . F r o m t h a t d a y f o r w a r d

Mac a n d I g o t a l o n g b e a u t i f u l l y . We d e v e l o p e d a v e r y c l o s e

a n d warm f r i e n d s h i p . I n f a c t , a f t e r h e h a d r e t i r e d a n d was o n

h i s l a s t l e g s , I w o u l d come down h e r e S a t u r d a y e v e n i n g , o r

Sunday a n d s i t t h e r e b y h i s b e d s i d e a l l a f t e r n o o n j u s t c h a t t -

i n g w i t h h i m , i f h e was awake. I f h e was a s l e e p , I w o u l d

j u s t s i t t h e r e a n d p r e t t y s o o n I w o u l d g e t up a n d g o t a l k t o

F r a n n i e a n d i f h e ' d wake up, I ' d g o back . We d e v e l o p e d t h a t

v e r y c l o s e r e l a t i o n s h i p down t o t h e v e r y end. I t was a

r e l a t i o n s h i p t h a t y o u c h e r i s h and y o u h o l d o n t o .

L o f s v o l d : R i g h t .

H i l l s : O t h e r t h a n t h a t o n my l a s t t o u r , b e f o r e , t h e r e w a s n ' t

a w h o l e l o t o f s i g n i f i c a n c e . I t r i e d t o h o l d down t h e j o b a s

b e s t I c o u l d . J i m G o d d a r d d r o v e me c r a z y . J i m p r o m i s e d me

t h e j o b o n a number o f o c c a s i o n s . He s a i d t h a t I was g o i n g t o

b e t h e D i s t r i c t D i r e c t o r h e r e a s s o o n a s t h e y f o u n d s o m e t h i n g

f o r Mac a n d t h a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o g e t Mac o u t o f h e r e .

W e l l , a s we a l l know Mac o u t l a s t e d J i m .

L o f s v o l d : He t o o k g r e a t p r i d e i n t h a t t o o .

H i l l : Oh, y e s I am s u r e h e d i d . He o u t l a s t e d h im. E v e n t u -

a l l y I d i d go i n t o t h e p r o g r a m , b a c k i n W a s h i n g t o n .

My f i r s t a s s i g n m e n t - - - I was n o t h a p p y w i t h t h e way t h a t

t h e p r o g r a m d e v e l o p e d . I knew n o t h i n g a b o u t i t , b u t I know o n

t h e phone I a s k e d them, "What am I g o i n g t o d o ? " T h e i r r e -

s p o n s e was, " W e l l , w h a t d o y o u w a n t t o d o ? Where d o y o ~ u w a n t

t o w o r k ? " I s a i d , " W e l l , t h e t h i n g t h a t I f e e l m o s t l a ~ c k i n g

i n i s w h a t goes on i n t h e P l a n n i n g Shop b a c k t h e r e . " Sso t h a t

i s w h a t my f i r s t a s s i g n m e n t was.

I g o t b a c k t h e r e a n d t h e y h a d h a d a s h u f f l e . Goddlard was

gone. H e r b L e y h a d j u s t come o v e r as Commiss i o n e r . He h a d

c a l l e d i n Vaughn C h o a t e a s t h e A s s i s t a n t C o m m i s s i o n e r f r o m

P l a n n i n g a n d E v a l u a t i o n . Vaughn h a d b e e n h i s a d m i n i s t r a t i v e

o f f i c e r , o r s o m e t h i n g , o v e r i n t h e B u r e a u o f D rugs . Vaughn

d i d n ' t know w h a t i n t h e h e l l was g o i n g on. I d i d n ' t kn~ow w h a t

was g o i n g on. The s t a f f , t h e y w e r e a l l i n e x p e r i e n c e d t o o .

Vaughn l e a n e d on me as b e i n g t h e c a r e e r p e r s o n i n t h e f i e l d .

I s t a y e d a r o u n d t h e r e f o r s i x m o n t h s a n d i t was a t r o c i o ~ u s t h e

way t h e p l a n n i n g was g o i n g on. I t was j u s t u n b e l i e v a b l e , t h e

t h i n g s t h a t w e r e g o i n g on, r e a l l y .

Then P a u l Pumpfan a n d Bob @ t h e r e 1 1 s t a r t i n g p u s h h g me

t o come and w o r k i n t h e i r shop.

L o f s v o l d : F e d e r a l - S t a t e R e l a t i o n s ?

H i l l s : No, t h i s was t h e o f f i c e o f OLGS, t h e O f f i c e o f L e g i s -

l a t i v e and G o v e r n m e n t a l S e r v i c e s . They h a d F e d e r a l - S t a t e

R e l a t i o n s a s one b r a n c h o f i t . I t o l d t h e m t h a t I w o u l d

c o n s i d e r an a s s i g n m e n t o v e r t h e r e i f t h e y h a d s o m e t h i n g t h a t

w o u l d make me b e t t e r q u a l i f e d f o r t h e D i s t r i c t D i r e c t o r ' s

p o s i t i o n i n t h e f i e l d . I w s n o t p l a n n i n g o n s t a y S n g i n

W a s h i n g t o n . A l l I was w a n t i n g t o d o was t o b e t t e r q u a l i f y

m y s e l f t o come b a c k t o t h e f i e l d . A t t h a t p a r t i c u l a r t i m e we

w e r e a b s o r b i n g o r t a k i n g i n t h e PHs p r o g r a m s . P a u l , s a i d t h a t

h e w o u l d l i k e f o r me t o c o n d u c t a s t u d y o f a l l o f t h o s e p r o -

g rams a n d s e e how t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o mesh i n w i t h t h e Food a n d

D r u g P r o g r a m s .

L o f s v o l d : T h a t was t h e M i l k , I n t e r s t a t e . . . .

H i l l : M i l k , i n t e r s t a t e t r a v e l , s h e l l f i s h i n s p e c t i o n . . . f o o d

s e r v i c e . So I s t a r t e d t o do t h a t a n d I d i d n ' t much m o r e t h a n

g e t s t a r t e d o n t h a t , t i l l T e d Kennedy s e n t o v e r a b i g l o n g

l i s t o f q u e s t i o n s t h a t h e w a n t e d a n s w e r s f o r , r i g h t now. I

was g i v e n t h a t a s s i g n m e n t t o o . I . w a s s u p p o s e d t o p u l l t o -

g e t h e r t h a t r e s p o n s e .

B e f o r e I g o t t h a t o n e done , t h e r e was a h e a r i n g o n t e a r

gas s p r a y s a n d t h a t k i n d o f p r o d u c t . I was s u p p o s e d t o d o

t h a t a n d a s a r e s u l t I g o t s h o v e d i n t o i t r e a l f a s t a n d n e v e r

d i d qet tkc s t u d y dsne uhat J. mas svppossd fo do o r i g i n a l l y .

N e v e r d i d g e t i t done , I g o t s t a r t e d , b u t t h a t i s a s f a r a s I

g o t w i t h i t . B e c a u s e i t was j u s r i g h t i n t o t h e p r e s s u r e

c o o k e r o f t h a t o f f i c e t h e n .

Then o n e d a y h e came b y a n d h e s a i d M o r t S c h n e i d e r , who

was t h e C h i e f o f C o n g r e s s i o n a l L a i s o n . ..Bob T u c k e r was

t o me w h i l e I was i n K a n s a s C i t y . J u s t t h a t I f e l t a t t h e

t i m e t h a t t h a t was my e n d i n g p o i n t , t h a t I w o u l d s t a y t h e r e .

I was n o t h a p p y w i t h t h e s i t u a t i o n .

We d i d t e r m i n a t e t h e f i r s t t r i a l on a f l a t o x i n w h i l e I was

K a n s a s C i t y . I h a d recommended s e i z u r e on a l a r g e amoun t

c o n t a m i n a t e d c o r n i n a n e l e v a t o r w h i l e I was o n a d e t a i l a s

t i n g D i s t r i c t D i r e c t o r e a r l y i n 1 9 6 6 . O v e r 4 y e a r s l a t e r ,

f i n a l l y a d j u d i c a t e d t h e c a s e . We e v e n b r o u g h t i n a n e x p e r t

f l a t o x i n f r o m E u r o p e t o t e s t i f y . T h a t i s o u r p r e c e d e n t

c a s e on a f l a t o x i n c o n t a mi n a t i o n .

C e r t a i n p a r t s o f my s t a y i n W a s h i n g t o n w e r e n o t h a p p y

e i t h e r . I t was n o t a good way t o e x i s t a n d l i v e . We n e v e r

e v e n u n p a c k e d o u r b e l o n g i n g s t h e r e . We c o u n t e d on m o v i n g o u t

as s o o n a s p o s s i b l e . I was a l i t t l e b i t b i t t e r . I h a d moved

t h r e e t i m e s w i t h no a d v a n c e m e n t and n o a d v a n c e m e n t was i n

s t o r e b u t I d i d n ' t w a n t t o s t a y a r o u n d W a s h i n g t o n anymope s o I

came b a c k t o t h e f i e l d , s t i l l i n t h e same p o s i t i o n t h a t I h a d

f o r s e v e r a l y e a r s . We c o u l d o f s t a y e d i n D a l T a s a n d been i n

t h e same p l a c e , same g r a d e .

B u t t h e n when t h e y o p e n e d up p o s i t i o n s a g a i n , we d i s -

c u s s e d i t a t home a n d I wasn' t so sure I w a n t e d t o go t k r o u q h

w i t h i t anymore . I f i g u r e d t h a t my c a r e e r h a d come t o a

c l o s i n q p o i n t . M a r y E l l e n c o n v i n c e d me t h a t I shou ld . . .she

s a i d , " Y o u ' r e g o i n g t o b e f r u s t r a t e d one way o r t h e o t h e r . I f

y o u d o n ' t g e t i t y o u w o n ' t b e any m o r e f r u s t r a t e d t h e n y o u a r e

a n y w a y , so why n o t t r y . " So I d i d p u t i n my a p p l i c a t i o n . I

a s k e d f o r 5 , s a i d I w o u l d a c c e p t a n y 1 o f 5 a s s i g n m e n t s and

San F r a n c i s c o was my f i r s t c h o i c e and t h a t ' s w h e r e I am.

L o f s v o l d : T h a t was t h e t i m e when t h e R e g i o n a l Food and D r u g

D i r e c t o r j o b s w e r e c r e a t e d and t h a t l e f t t h e n a number o f

v a c a n c i e s f o r D i s t r i c t D i r e c t o r .

H i l l : Yes . So I was c a l l e d t o come i n t o h e a d q u a r t e r s f o r an

i n t e r v i e w w i t h t h e C o m m i s s i o n e r .

L o f s v o l d : By t h e n t h i s was Dr . E d w a r d s .

H i l l : C h a r l i e E d w a r d s . And I f l e w i n t h a t a f t e r n o o n , I

g u e s s . I g o t c a l l e d i n t h e m o r n i n g t o b e t h e r e i n t i m e f o r an

i n t e r v i e w e a r l y n e x t m o r n i n g . So I f l e w i n t h . e r e t h a t e v e n -

i n g . I s a t a r o u n d a l l day w a i t i n g f o r h i m . I w a l k e d i n t h e

o f f i c e , I t o o k my s u i t c a s e i n t o OLGS, t o h a v e some p l a c e t o

p a r k my s u i t c a s e d u r i n g t h e day and w a l k e d i n t h e r e , and t h e y

i m m e d i a t e l y s t a r t e d c o n g r a t u l a t i n g me. I t r i e d t o a c t i n n o -

c e n t and a l l l i k e t h a t and t h e y s a i d , " N o , we know y o u ' v e b e e n

named a s D i s t r i c t D i r e c t o r i n San F r a n c i s c o " . I s a i d , " N o , I

h a v e n ' t e i t h e r . I ' m i n h e r e f o r an i n t e r v i e w b u t t h a t ' s i t . "

L a t e r on t h a t day I saw Sam. He s a i d , " I know w h a t y o u ' r e i n

here f o r , a l s o " , d a d be t a l k e d fo ae and .we just chatted far a

l i t t l e w h i l e . T h e n I w e n t back o v e r t o OLGS and t h e y showed

me a Food C h e m i c a l News and h e r e i t was . I t was a l r e a d y i n

t h e Food C h e m i c a l News.

L o f s v o l d : T h e p r e s s had i t a l r e a d y .

H i l l : T h e y h a d i t a l r e a d y . We w e r e a l l named and I h a d n ' t

e v e n h a d my i n t e r v i e w . P a u l H i l e c o u l d n ' t b e 1 i e v e i t . F r a n k

C l a r k c a l l e d h i m and t o l d h i m a b o u t i t , he s a i d , "No, B i l l i s

s i t t i n g r i g h t h e r e " a n d F r a n k s a i d , " W e l l , i t ' s a l r e a d y in . . .

"He t o l d h i m i t ' s a l r e a d y i n t h e Food C h e m i c a l News. Me

c o u l d n ' t b e l i e v e i t e i t h e r . P a u l a s k e d me a b o u t i t . I s a i d ,

"Yes , i t ' s t h e r e . I saw i t down i n OLGS a w h i l e ago." So M r .

G a l l a n t h a d some i n f o r m a t i o n f r o m s o m e p l a c e ; h e h a d u s named

b e f o r e w e ' d e v e n b e e n i n t e r v i e w e d . It h a s b e e n a v e r y i n t e r -

e s t i n g t i m e . O f c o u r s e when y o u ' r e i n t h e p o s i t i o n , t h a t ' s

c o n s i d e r a b l y d i f f e r e n t f r o m b e i n g i n an a c t i n g c a p a c i t y .

L o f s v o l d : R i g h t .

H i l l : You c a n no l o n g e r say , w e l l t h e a c t i n g d e t a i l w i l l be

o v e r p r e t t y soon a n d I ' m o u t o f i t. T h e r e ' s no way o f g e t t i n g

o u t o f i t .

L o f s v o l d : Y o u ' v e g o t t o l i v e w i t h y o u r m i s t a k e s .

H i l l : Y o u ' v e g o t t a l i v e w i t h t h e m f r o m t h e n on.

L o f s v o l d : Then y o u r e t u r n e d t o San F r a n c i s c o a n d l i v e d

h a p p i l y e v e r a f t e r .

H i l l : Yes. W e l l , t h e r e h a v e b e e n a f e w t i m e s when i t h a s n ' t

b e e n so p l e a s a n t . I was f a c e d i m m e d i a t e l y w i t h a v e r y d i f f i -

c u l t p r o b l e m . Dr. G e r r i t z was i n a coma and i n t h e h o s p i t a l

t h e d a y I a r r i v e d and, o f c o u r s e , he d i e d a b o u t a week l a t e r .

was f a c e d w i t h t h a t t r a u m a t i c e x p e r i e n c e r i g h t o f f t h e b a t ,

w h i c h i s n o t a g o o d way t o s t a r t an o p e r a t i o n .

I

I f e l t v e r y f o r t u n a t e i n h a v i n g J o h n Rynd a l r e a d y on

b o a r d as t h e C h i e f I n s p e c t o r . O f c o u r s e John and I had worked

many y e a r s t o g e t h e r i n Hous ton and t h e n he had come t o D a l l a s

b e f o r e I l e f t down t h e r e . And we worked...he was p a r t t i m e as

s u p e r v i s o r and p a r t t i m e as a Food and D r u g O f f i c e r . We

worked s i d e by s i d e . So I f e l t v e r y c o m f o r t a b l e h a v i n g h i m on

t h e j o b h e r e t o work w i t h me.

Ron F i s c h e r was here . I had s e l e c t e d h i m as Comp l i ance

O f f i c e r w h i l e Mac was r e c u p e r a t i n g f r o m h i s h e a r t a t t a c k . And

so Ron was s t i l l h e r e and I f e l t v e r y f o r t u n a t e i n h a v i n g h i m

he re , because Ron and I go back, way way back t o o . He t e l l s

me, I d o n ' t remember, b u t a p p a r e n t l y he does, I t o o k h im on

h i s f i r s t i n s p e c t i o n . T h a t goes way back t o t h e S t . L o u i s

days. B u t t h e y ' v e c e r t a i n l y been a t remendous h e l p t o me i n

r u n n i n g t h e shop o u t here . And t h e n , o f c o u r s e , we r e c r u i t e d

f o r t h e C h i e f Chemis t j o b and Pau l B o l i n was one o f t h e t o p

c a n d i d a t e s and was t h e one t h a t we e v e n t u a l l y s e l e c t e d here.

I worked f o r a s h o r t t i m e w i t h Pau l i n Kansas C i t y , j u s t

b e f o r e I came o u t .

1 had a r e a l good s t a f f , I f e l t r e a l p l e a s e d w i t h them,

real co~fortablewfth the& We d i d n ' t always see eye-to-eye

b u t t h a t ' s e x p e c t e d when y o u r g o i n g t o have t h a t many d i f f e r -

e n t p e o p l e . B u t we g o t a l o n g v e r y c o m p a t i b l e and worked v e r y

w e l l t o g e t h e r . And i t ' s l a r g e l y been t o l i v e h a p p i l y e v e r

a f t e r .

One o f t h e m o r e n o t e w o r t h y a n d i n t e r e s t i n g p r o j e c t s I ' v e

p u s h e d s i n c e c o m i n g b a c k t o San F r a n c i s c o i n v o l v e d o u r r e l a -

t i o n s h i p w i t h t h e P a c i f i c I s l a n d s . When we e s t a b l i s h e d t h e

R e g i o n , we a l s o r e a l i g n e d t h e D i s t r i c t t e r r i t o r i e s . San

F r a n c i s c o D i s t r i c t now encompassed a l l o f t h e i s l a n d s - - H a w a i i ,

Guam, A m e r i c a n Samoa, and t h e T r u s t T e r r i t o r y I s l a n d s . Guam

and Samoa o f f i c i a l s s o o n a f t e r w a r d s r e q u e s t e d some a s s i s t a n c e

i n Food a n d D r u g m a t t e r s a s t h e y f e l t t h e i r i s l a n d s welre b e i n g

u s e d as " d u m p i n g g r o u n d s " f o r p r o d u c t s n o t a c c e p t a b l e a t a n y

o t h e r p l a c e . I was t h e f i r s t FDA p e r s o n t o go t o Guam a n d I

c l o s e l y f o l l o w e d t h e f i r s t t w o i n s p e c t o r s who w e n t t o A m e r i c a n

Samoa.

Upon my s u g g e s t i o n s , a d v i c e a n d g u i d a n c e , a r e s o u r c e

s t u d y was c o n d u c t e d o n Guam b y C h a r l e s ( C h u c k ) Pogue a n d I.

We made a number o f r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s w h i c h w e r e i m p l e m e n t e d .

Guam now h a s a m o d e r n l a w , and a r e o r g a n i z e d d e p a r t m e n t , i n -

c l u d i n g a Food a n d D r u g b r a n c h . We h a v e p r o v i d e d t r a i n i n g ,

b o t h on i s l a n d and h e r e i n San F r a n c i s c o . They a r e t i e d i n t o

o u r t e l e t y p e sys tem.

I h a v e c o n t i n u e d t r y i n g t o a s s i s t t h e i s l a n d e r s , e s p e c i -

a l l y i n t h e N o r t h e r n Mariaaas, H e a l t h o f f i c j d l s on T r u k do

s e n d us s a m p l e s o f c a n n e d f i s h w h i c h t h e y s u s p e c t . Our e x a m i -

n a t i o n s h a v e l e d t o d e s t r u c t i o n s and a t l e a s t o n e s a m p l e

i n i t i a t e d a r e c a l l h e r e o n t h e m a i n l a n d .

The i s l a n d e r s a r e w a n t i n g t o m o d e r n i z e b u t t h e y h a v e many

p r o b l e m s . They h a v e b e a u t i f u l c u l t u r e s t h a t s h o u l d b e p r e -

s e r v e d . They a r e g r a c i o u s , f r i e n d l y , a n d a p p e a r g e n u i n e l y s o

a p p r e c i a t i v e o f a n y t h i n g . I t h a s b e e n a r e a l p l e a s u r e t o w o r k

w i t h them.

L o f s v o l d : B i l l , o n e t h i n g i n t h e s e i n t e r v i e w s t h a t w e ' v e

t r i e d t o do, i s t o ask p e o p l e t o t a l k a b o u t C o m m i s s i o n e r s a n d

o t h e r t o p m a n a g e r s i n t h e a g e n c y t h a t t h e y h a v e known d u r i n g

t h e i r c a r e e r s , t h e c i r c u m s t a n c e s u n d e r w h i c h t h e y knew them,

w h a t t h e y saw t h a t i l l u s t r a t e d t h e k i n d o f a p e r s o n t h a t t h e

C o m m i s s i o n e r was, w h a t h i s p e r s o n a l i t y was a n d how h e h a n d l e d

h i s p e o p l e , some o f h i s p r o b l e m s a n d s o on. I w o n d e r e d i f

y o u ' d b e a b l e t o d o t h a t w i t h some o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n e r s y o u

s e r v e d u n d e r .

H i l l : Yes. G o i n g b a c k t o t h e b e g i n n i n g , I ' v e n e v e r me t t h e

f i r s t C o m m i s s i o n e r t h a t was D r . Dunbar . He was s t i l l Commis-

s i o n e r when I f i r s t s t a r t e d . I t h i n k t h e o n e t h a t . . . w e l l I

remember my f i r s t m e e t i n g w i t h G e o r g e L a r r i c k . He w a s n ' t

C o m m i s s i o n e r , a t t h e t i m e , I d o n ' t know w h a t p o s i t i o n h e was

i n a t t h e t i m e . I know I was s t i l l v e r y y o u n g i n my c a r e e r .

He came t o St, L o u i s o n a v i s i t a n d h e c a l l e d aarh o n e o f u s

i n i n d i v i d u a l l y . Roy l e t h i m h a v e t h e l i b r a r y . He c a l l e d

e a c h one o f u s i n i n d i v i d u a l l y and s a t and c h a t t e d w i t h us .

T h i s made q u i t e a n i m p r e s s i o n . We s t a r t e d o u t , t h i s was r i g h t

a f t e r I h a d h a d my s t i n t w o r k i n g i n t h e w h e a t a n d t h e f l o u r

p r o g r a m and t h a t ' s w h e r e h e s t a r t e d o f f . He s a i d , "Iu n d e r -

s t a n d y o u ' r e t h e w h e a t a n d f l o u r e x p e r t i n t h i s o f f i c e . " We

c h a t t e d a l i t t l e b i t a b o u t t h a t .

Then my n e x t d e a l i n g s w i t h h i m , I g u e s s , h e was, I d o n ' t

know w h e t h e r h e was C o m m i s s i o n e r y e t b e c a u s e I was s t i l l i n

S t . L o u i s . I know I h a d made a s p e e c h t o t h e g r a i n i n d u s t r y

o u t i n M i s s o u r i . I h a d r e a l l y u p s e t a f e l l o w t h a t t u r n e d o u t

t o b e t h e S e c r e t a r y o f t h e A m e r i c a n G r a i n and Feed D e a l e r s

A s s o c i a t i o n . He g o t r e a l l y i n c e n s e d a n d mad a t me a n d t o l d me

i f I h a d u s e d t h i s p a r t i c u l a r e x h i b i t a n d made t h o s e r e m a r k s

b e f o r e a n y o t h e r g r o u p , e s s e n t i a l l y h e was g o i n g t o h a v e my

head . And h e t o l d me t h a t h e was g o i n g t o r e p o r t me t o t h e

C o m m i s s i o n e r ' s o f f i c e , f o r d o i n g i t t h i s t i m e . W e l l , i t made

me a l i t t l e b i t s h a k y y o u know. I was a y o u n g i n s p e c t o l r o u t

t h e r e a n d g e t t i n g t h r e a t e n e d w i t h b e i n g r e p o r t e d t o t h e Com-

m i s s i o n e r , t h a t was k i n d o f s h a k y . I i m m e d i a t e l y c a l l e l d Roy

and t o l d h i m w h a t h a d t r a n s p i r e d a n d h e s a i d , " W e l l , why d o n ' t

y o u come on b a c k home a n d w e ' l l make o u r r e p o r t t o h e a d ~ q u a r -

t e r s t o o . " And we d i d .

I t w a s n ' t v e r y l o n g a f t e r t h a t t h a t I w e n t i n t o helad-

q u a r t e r s f o r a c o n f e r e n c e t h a t was s u p p o s e d t o b e a Druig

I n s p e c t o r ' s C o n f e r e n c e a n d a g a i n I w e n t i n k n o w i n g a b s o l u t e l y

n o t h i n g o f why I was t h e r e o r a n y t h i n g e l s e . M r . L a r r i c k came

t o we lcome t h e g r o u p . As h e came i n and h e p a s s e d me, h e

s a i d , " I w a n t t o t a l k t o y o u i n a f e w m i n u t e s . " T h a t t o o k me

b y s u r p r i s e . Then h e came b a c k l a t e r a n d he s a i d . " D o n ' t l e t

t h a t f e l l o w w o r r y you." He s a i d , " N o t h i n g i s g o i n g t o happen

t o you. He ' s j u s t a l i t t l e man i n a g r e a t b i g j o b and d o n ' t

pay any a t t e n t i o n t o him. Y o u ' r e a l l r i g h t , y o u ' r e d o i n g

f i n e . " We l l , t h i s d i d a l o t t o r e a l l y b u i l d me up,

Today, I d o n ' t t h i n k we 've had a Commiss ioner f o r s e v e r a l

y e a r s t h a t wou ld r e c o g n i z e y o u and c a l l y o u by y o u r f i r s t name

i n a s i t u a t i o n l i k e t h a t , and s t o p and c h a t w i t h y o u l i k e

t h a t . There i s n o t t h a t c l o s e n e s s a t a l l . N a t u r a l l y t h a t

made a v e r y s o f t s p o t i n my h e a r t f o r t h e l i k e s o f George

L a r r i c k . I t h i n k t h a t t h e agency t o d a y c e r t a i n l y has been

d e p r i v e d o f h a v i n g k n o w l e d g e a b l e l e a d e r s h i p s i n c e George

r e t ired .

A n o t h e r one t h a t s u r p r i s e d me once was Jack Harvey , when

he was Deputy Commiss ioner . I was i n t h e Naval Reserve. When

I was h e r e i n San F r a n c i s c o , I was on t h e s t a f f o f a Rese rve

O f f i c e r s T r a i n i n g Schoo l h e r e i n San Mateo, and t h e n I had t o

t a k e my t r a i n i n g d u t y h e r e once i n a w h i l e . I ' d been made a

Food and D r u g O f f i c e r and I was a l r e a d y s i g n e d up f o r my Navy

t o u r o f d u t y . I asked Mac i f he t h o u g h t I s h o u l d c a n c e l t h a t .

He s a i d , "no " i n h i s way you know, "You go ahead. You l e a v e

me w i t h a l l t h f s work. You go ahead and p l a y mr s a i h r

b i t , " and a l l t h a t k i n d o f s t u f f . "Leave me w i t h a l l t h i s

work b u t w e ' l l g e t a l o n g somehow," and h e ' d make y o u f e e l l i k e

y o u ' r e w o r t h two c e n t s .

Bu t anyway my t o u r o f d u t y was i n t h e basement o f t h e

F e d e r a l O f f i c e B u i l d i n g . We s t a r t e d i n a t 7:00 o ' c l o c k i n t h e

m o r n i n g a n d I ' d g e t o f f a b o u t 2 : 3 0 - 3 : 0 0 o ' c l o c k i n t h e a f t e r -

noon, f r o m t h e N a v a l S c h o o l . So t h e n I w o u l d g o u p s t a i r s .

I ' d p u l l o f f my h a t , my c o a t and I ' d s i t down a n d do a l i t t l e

b i t o f w o r k on my d e s k . I wen t u p t h e r e o n e d a y i n u n i f o r m ,

w a l k e d i n t o t h e o f f i c e , t o o k o f f my h a t , h u n g i t up, to lok o f f

my c o a t a n d H a r v e y was v i s i t i n g w i t h Mac i n t h e o f f i c e a d j o i n -

i n g us . He saw me w a l k i n a n d h e d i d n ' t know who i t wals. He

w o n d e r e d w h a t ' s Mac d o i n g o u t h e r e - - - l e t t i n g t h e Navy come

i n and r u n t h e o f f i c e ? B u t t h e n we w e r e i n t r o d u c e d a n d

c h a t t e d a w h i l e .

Then l a t e r on when I was down i n D a l l a s , I g o t a t e l e -

p h o n e c a l l o n e d a y a n d i t came o v e r r e a l f a s t , who t h i s was

a n d h e s a i d , "You h a v e d e t a i n e d some m e d i c i n e f o r a womlan u p

i n Wyoming o r s o m e p l a c e u p t h e r e . " He s a i d , "You d i d e l x a c t l y

r i g h t , y o u d i d e x a c t l y w h a t y o u ' e s u p p o s e d t o do. B u t t h i s

woman up t h e r e h a s c o n t a c t e d h e r Congressman a n d t h e Co lng ress -

man has c o n t a c t e d me a n d I t h i n k t h a t i n t h i s p a r t i c u l a r c a s e

we o u g h t t o l e t h e r h a v e h e r med c i n e . " And I s a i d , "Wlho d i d

y o u s a y y o u w e r e ? " He s a i d , " T h i s i s J a c k H a r v e y , t h e D e p u t y

C o m m i s s i o n e r . Does t h a t mean a n y t h i n g t o y o u ? " I s a i d , "Yes

s i r , M r . H a r v e y . " I c o u l d n ' t v i s u a l i z e t h e D e p u t y Commis-

s i o n e r p i c k i n g u p a t e l e p h o n e and c a l l i n g a F i e l d Food a n d

D r u g O f f i c e r d i r e c t on a l i t t l e o l d m a i l i m p o r t . I t wa8s j u s t

u n r e a l . B u t t h i s i s s o m e t h i n g , a s I s a y , - - - t h e a g e n c y h a s

l o s t t h i s c l o s e n e s s w i t h t h e p e o p l e a n d t h e human s i d e o f i t .

Those a r e some o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t I l o o k b a c k a t , t h e

c a r e e r t y p e o f C o m m i s s i o n e r s we had. R e c o g n i z i n g t h a t we l o s t

t h e c a r e e r C o m m i s s i o n e r s when G e o r g e L a r r i c k r e t i r e d i n 1 9 6 5

and w e ' v e had t h e a p p o i n t e e s s i n c e t h e n .

I ' v e t h o u g h t a b o u t t h i s a l o t i n t h e p a s t f e w m o n t h s when

w e ' v e b e e n a s k e d q u e s t i o n s a b o u t why do we t h i n k t h a t t h e num-

b e r s o f l e g a l a c t i o n s h a v e d e c l i n e d , r e g u l a t o r y a c t i o n s . ' ' W h y

d i d t h e y d e c l i n e and s u c h a s t h a t . And I l o o k b a c k a t some o f

t h e s e t h i n g s t h a t h a v e happened s i n c e 1965 . J i m G o d d a r d was

g o i n g t o w i p e o u t s a l m o n e l l a , and s o we p u l l e d o u t a l l t h e

s t o p s and we r e a l l y c o n c e n t r a t e d o n s a l m o n e l l a c o n t a m i n a t i o n

i n f o o d p r o d u c t s . And a s we a l l know, we d i d n ' t w i p e o u t

s a l m o n e l l a . J i m G o d d a r d l e f t us. S a l m o n e l l a won. B u t t h a t

was a b o u t t h e o n l y t h i n g t h e man w a n t e d r e a l l y t o go on, i t

seems.

Then we h a d H e r b Ley i n . H e r b , I l i k e d h im. A l l t h e

t i m e , p r a c t i c a l l y a l l t h e t i m e I was i n my W a s h i n g t o n t r a i n i n g

p r o g r a m , H e r b was t h e C o m m i s s i o n e r . And I was w o r k i n g t h e r e ,

a l m o s t on h i s i m m e d i a t e s t a f f . As a man I l i k e d h i m a n d a l l

l i k e t h a t b u t when I l o o k b a c k - - - r e f l e c t b a c k , w h a t d i d h e

s t a n d f o r ? I c a n ' t t h i n k o f v e r y much o t h e r t h a n j u s t keeping

t h e shop r u n n i n g .

L o f s v o l d : A c a r e t a k e r .

H i l l : A c a r e t a k e r , y e s , a d r i f t e r .

F o l l o w i n g h i s d e p a r t u r e , t h e n we had C h a r l i e Edwards a n d

h i s c r e w . He r a n a w h o l e new b a l l game. I was t h e r e o n t h e

d a y t h a t t h e y a l l g o t t h e i r w a l k i n g p a p e r s , R a n k i n , L e y a n d

Ken K i r k . And i t was a t r a u m a t i c e x p e r i e n c e t o go t h r o u g h . I

remember G e o r g e B u r d i t t was t h e r e . I h a d met G e o r g e a l o n g

t i m e b e f o r e . He s t o p p e d me o u t i n t h e h a l l , " B i l l , t h e y d o n ' t

e v e n t r e a t b a d g u y s l i k e t h i s . " It was a b a d e x p e r i e n c e b u t I

n e v e r had... I n f a c t I t h i n k t h e f i r s t t i m e I was e v e r i n t r o -

d u c e d t o C h a r 1 i e Edwards was when I w e n t i n f o r my i n t e r v i e w

a f t e r I ' d b e e n o u t i n Kansas C i t y f o r a l o n g t i m e . A l t h o u g h

o u r o f f i c e s w e r e j u s t a r o u n d t h e c o r n e r , same f l o o r , he n e v e r

came a r o u n d . N o t e v e n t o m e e t t h e s t a f f t h e r e o n t h e same

f l o o r as h i s own, y o u m i g h t s a y h i s own s t a f f b e c a u s e i t was

t h e O f f i c e o f t h e L e g i s l a t i v e S e r v i c e s a t t a c h e d t o t h e Com-

m i s s i o n e r ' s o f f i c e . He n e v e r e v e n m e t them.

N e v e r t h e l e s s , we d i d g e t i n t o t h e n u m b e r s game w i t h h i s

C o m m i s s i o n e r s h i p . I ' m n o t a t a l l c e r t a i n i f t h a t ' s t h e game

we s h o u l d b e i n . I know w e ' v e g o t t o h a y e a n a c c o u n t i n g , b u t

I am n o t so s u r e t h a t t h i s i s t h e way i t s h o u l d b e done, I

d o n ' t know how i t s h o u l d b e done , I ' m n o t g o i n g t o s a y U h a t

b u t I ' m n o t c o n v i n c e d t h a t t h i s i s t h e way we s h o u l d b e g o i n g .

F o l l ow i n g h i s d e p a r t u r e t h e n ~ l e x S c h m i d t came i n a n d I

am a f r a i d I m u s t p u t h i m i n much t h e same category a s 1 w o u l d

H e r b Ley . T h e r e ' s n o t h i n g e x t r a o r d i n a r y t h a t I c a n s e e t h a t

came o u t o f h i s o p e r a t i o n . I t h i n k t h e t h i n g t h a t h a s p r o b -

a b l y h a d t h e b i g g e s t i m p a c t on t h e a g e n c y , t h a t h e d i d , was

p u t t i n g P a u l H i l e i n as t h e A s s o c i a t e Commi s s i o n e r f o r

Comp l i a n c e , now c a l l e d A C R A .

L o f s v o l d : T h a t was when Sam F i n e r e t i r e d ?

H i 11 : Yes. W i t h Sam's r e t i r e m e n t we l o s t , I t h i n k we l o s t

t h e g u n g - h o a t t i t u d e o f l a w e n f o r c e m e n t a s we knew i t y e a r s

a g o

A f t e r S c h m i d t ' s l e a v i n g, t h e n we h a d Don Kennedy . Don

was a v e r y p e r s o n a b l e , dynami c p e r s o n . Some h a v e c l a s s e d h i m

a s b e i n g q u i t e s h a l l o w . He i m p r e s s e d me i n my i n i t i a l m e e t -

i n g s w i t h h i m , a s b e i n g v e r y down t o e a r t h a n d v e r y human a n d

v e r y k n o w l e d g e a b l e . I was s u r p r i s e d when...I g u e s s I was

p r o b a b l y t h e f i r s t o n e i n t h e f i e l d t o t a l k t o Don, a b o u t how

k n o w l e d g e a b l e h e was a b o u t t h e w o r k o f t h e a g e n c y i n o u r f i r s t

m e e t i n g . He o b v i o u s l y h a d d o n e a l o t o f homework . H e ' d h a d

some c o n n e c t i o n s w i t h t h e a g e n c y t h r o u g h h i s u n i v e r s i t y d e a l -

i n g s , w i t h I g u e s s C o n g r e s s i o n a l C o m m i t t e e s a n d s u c h i n h i s

e x p e r t i s e . On t h e d a y I c o n t a c t e d Don... I g u e s s f i r s t , some-

b o d y c a l l e d me a n d a s k e d me a b o u t Kennedy. The Consumer

A f f a i r s O f f i c e r s w e r e o n t h e r e d p h o n e c o n f e r e n c e c a l l a n d

S h e r w i n G a r d n e r came o n a n d made t h e a n n o u n c e m e n t o f D o n ' s

a p p o i n t m e n t . About; 1 5 m i n u t e s l a t e r I g o t a c a l l f r o m Tom

Brown, a s k i n g me i f I knew a n y b o d y b y t h e name o f Don K e n n e d y

down i n S t a n f o r d a n d i f I knew a n y t h i n g a b o u t h im. I s a i d ,

"Yes I know s o m e t h i n g a b o u t h im . " I g a v e a v e r y q u i c k r u n

down a n d I s a i d , " T h e l a t e s t t h i n g i s , h e ' s j u s t b e e n

a p p o i n t e d t h e C o m m i s s i o n e r o f Food a n d D r u g A d m i n i s t r a t i o n . "

I t k i n d o f t o o k t h e w i n d o u t o f Tom's s a i l , I t h i n k . He was

g o i n g t o s p r i n g i t on me. He d i d n ' t know t h a t S h e r w i n G a r d n e r

h a d a l r e a d y a n n o u n c e d i t t o t h e CAO's, o n t h e p h o n e c a l l i n my

o f f i c e . B u t anyway , I t h o u g h t w e l l , I ' m g o i n g t o p i c k up a

t e l e p h o n e a n d c a l l h i m a n d c o n g r a t u l a t e h i m a n d a s k h i m t o

come o n down. I r v w a s n ' t i n t h e o f f i c e t h e n , a n d I was " a c t -

i n g " . Then I t h o u g h t , "No I'll w a i t t i l l I r v comes b a c k .

1 ' 1 1 l e t h i m do t h a t . " I r v came b a c k the. n e x t week , a n d I

t o l d h i m my t h o u g h t s . He s a i d , "No, when h e ' s Commi s s i o n e r

t h e n w e ' l l h a v e h i m down." So we d i d n ' t h a v e h im. We d i d n ' t

t a l k t o h i m , d i d n ' t l e t h i m know.

It was a f e w d a y s l a t e r t h a t a g a i n I r v was o u t o f t h e

o f f i c e a n d I was " a c t i n g " a n d Don H e a l t o n c a l l e d me a n d s a i d

t h a t h e h a d h e a r d , I g u e s s t h r o u g h S h e r w i n a g a i n , t h a t Don

Kennedy h a d commented, j u s t i n p a s s i n g , t h a t i f h e h a d t i m e h e

m i g h t j u s t s t o p i n a t t h e o f f i c e a n d s e e w h a t goes on i n one

o f t h e f i e l d o f f i c e s . I t o l d Don, I s a i d , " W e l l , I d o n ' t w a n t

h i m j u s t d r o p p i n g i n t o t h e o f f i c e . I ' m g o i n g t o c a l l h i m and

i n v i t e h i m t o come i n , " a n d t h a t ' s w h a t I d i d . I i m m e d i a t e l y

c a l l e d h i m and i n t r o d u c e d m y s e l f a n d i n v i t e d h i m t o c o 4 e t o

t h e o f f i c e . We s e t a m u t u a l l y a g r e e a b l e t i m e when we w o u l d b e

a b l e t o s e e h i m and t a l k t o h im . I t h i n k t h a t was o n e o f t h e

t h i n g s t h a t g o t u s o f f o n t h e r i g h t f o o t w i t h Don Kennedy.

L o f s v o l d : R i g h t .

H i l l : Because h e was gung-ho f o r t h e f i e l d f r o m t h e w o r d

"go " . We h a d a v e r y n i c e m e e t i n g w i t h h im . I c a l l e d a l l t h e

s t a f f i n . T h e r e w e r e a f e w s h o c k e r s t h a t came o u t o f i t . I n

t h e m e a n t i m e we w e r e t a l k i n g w i t h B i l l W h i t e h o r n a n d A l a n

K a p l a n i n t h e i r p r o f e s s i o n a l e d u c a t i o n p r o g r a m a n d t h e y h a d

a p p r o a c h e d me o n t h e p o s s i b i l i t y o f h o l d i n g a w o r k s h o p , a

m e e t i n g , a s e m i n a r , o r s o m e t h i n g o u t h e r e , w i t h t h e Commis-

s i o n e r . I t h o u g h t i t w o u l d b e a g o o d i d e a . The i d e a was

f i n e . We ' d h a d some d i s c u s s i o n b a c k a n d f o r t h o v e r o n t h a t

a n d I h a d b r o a c h e d i t t o Norma Warne r , who was o n e o f my Con-

sumer A f f a i r s O f f i c e r s , a n d h a d h e r l o o k i n g a t t h e p o s s i b i -

l i t i e s . So, we t h o u g h t , w o u l d n ' t i t b e n i c e i f we g o t Don

Kennedy f r o m t h e West C o a s t h e r e . Maybe t h i s w o u l d b e t h e

p l a c e t o h a v e a k i c k - o f f m e e t i n g . W e l l , we w e r e a l l s i t t i n g

a r o u n d t h e t a b l e t a l k i n g t o Don, e x p l a i n i n g w h a t we d i d a n d

e v e r y t h i n g . Norma was t h e r e a n d s h e came r i g h t o u t o f t h e

b l u e w i t h i t . She a s k e d h i m i f h e w o u l d b e a v a i l a b l e on

c e r t a i n d a y s . I d i d n ' t e v e n know i t h a d g o n e t h a t f a r y e t .

Don i m m e d i a t e l y p u l l e d o u t h i s s c h e d u l e b o o k a n d s a i d , "Yes ,

i t l o o k s l i k e t h a t d a t e was f r e e a s f a r a s h e was c o n c e r n e d

a n d h e ' d b e h a p p y t o d o i t . " So we s e t u p a h e a d t h e f i r s t

p r o f e s s i o n a l m e e t i n g f o r t h e C o m m i s s i o n e r , a n d i t w e n t o f f a n d

w o r k e d l i k e a charm. I t h i n k t h i n g s l i k e t h a t c a n h a p p e n o n a

s p u r o f a moment l i k e t h a t , a n d i t c a n h a v e , I t h i n k , a

p r o f o u n d e f f e c t o n t h o s e who a r e i n v o l v e d on t h e o c c a s i o n s .

t h i n k i t w o r k e d o u t v e r y w e l l .

G e t t i n g on, D o n ' s b i g t h i n g t u r n e d o u t t o b e f o o d l a b e

i n g . I know h e was v e r y s t r o n g l y i n v o l v e d i n f o o d l a b e l i n g

He was a v e r y o u t s p o k e n o p p o n e n t o f t h e l a e t r i l e movement a n d

t e s t i f i e d i n many s t a t e l e g i s l a t i v e h e a r i n g s on i t . U m f o r t u -

n a t e l y many o f t h e m p a i d n o a t t e n t i o n t o h i m a n d p a s s e d b i l l s

anyway. We a l l know t h a t t h e f o o d l a b e l i n g p r o p o s a l s n e v e r

g o t o f f t h e g r o u n d a n d t h e y a r e n o t g o i n g t o g e t o f f t h e

g r o u n d u n d e r t h e p r e s e n t a d m i n i s t r a t i o n . I d o n ' t know w h e t h e r

w e ' l l s e e a n y m o r e c h a n g e s f o r q u i t e some t i m e on t h a t . B u t

t h o s e w e r e h i s b i g t h i n g s .

Then we h a d J e r e Goyan a n d a g a i n we h a d t h e i n i t i a l m e e t -

i n g s w i t h h i m , h e b e i n g f r o m San F r a n c i s c o . J e r e ' s b i g p u s h ,

a s I s e e i t , was t h e l a b e l i n g o f p r e s c r i p t i o n d r u g s , t h e s o -

c a l l e d p a t i e n t p a c k a g i n g i n s e r t s . We a l m o s t g o t t h e p S l o t o f f

t h e g r o u n d o n t h a t one, b u t t h e c h a n g e o f p o l i t i c s b r o u g h t i t

t o a s c r e e c h i n g h a l t . I t ' s n o t g o i n g t o f l y now. I t ' s b a c k

t o w h e r e we a r e p u s h i n g t h e p h a r m a c e u t i c a l i n d u s t r y t o do

t h e i r own b i t t o w a r d s e d u c a t i n g t h e p a t i e n t on t h e i r m ~ d i c a -

t i o n s . We' 1 1 h a v e t o w a i t a n d s e e how t h a t o n e goes. B u t

t h a t was J e r e G o y a n ' s b i g p u s h .

L o f s v o l d : My i m p r e s s i o n , t o o , was t h a t Goyan was s o r t o f h e l d

down by t h e C a r t e r A d m i n i s t r a t i o n f r o m s t a r t i n g a n y t h i n g new

b e c a u s e h e came i n s u c h a s h o r t t i m e b e f o r e t h e e l e c t i o n .

H i l l : T h a t i s q u i t e p o s s i b l e . We n o t e d h e was t h e r e j u s t a

s h o r t p e r i o d o f t i m e . I w o n d e r e d i f when he w e n t b a c k t h e r e ,

i f i t was g o i n g t o b e w o r t h w h i l e e v e n h a v i n g somebody t h e r e ,

b e c a u s e I f e l t t h a t t h e C a r t e r A d m i n i s t r a t i o n was i n t r o u b l e

a n d was n o t g o i n g t o s u r v i v e , go f o r a s e c o n d g o - a r o u n d . I t

w o u l d b e a s h o r t t e r m C o m m i s s i o n e r s h i p . I t t u r n e d o u t t h a t

was t h e way i t was. He w o u l d o f l i k e d t o h a v e s t a y e d a n d I

u n d e r s t a n d d i d r e q u e s t t o b e r e t a i n e d . B u t t h a t was n o t i n

t h e game w i t h p o l i t i c s b e i n g w h a t t h e y a r e t h e s e d a y s . I

h a v e n ' t t a l k e d t o h i m s i n c e h e came b a c k . I u n d e r s t a n d h e

s a i d t h a t h e ' s c o m i n g down t o t h e o f f i c e a n d c h a t w i t h u s b u t

h e h a s n ' t s e e n f i t t o d o s o a s y e t .

L o f s v o l d : He i s b a c k a t t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f Ca l i f o r n i a Pharmacy

S c h o o l ?

H i 1 1 : Yes. T h a t h a s been, I am s u r e , q u i t e a t r a u m a t i c e x -

p e r i e n c e f o r h i m b e c a u s e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t h a p p e n e d o u t t h e r e

a t t h e s c h o o l . He l o s t t w o o f h i s t o p a s s i s t a n t s o u t t h e r e .

One o f t h e m c o m m i t t e d s u i c i d e , a n d a n o t h e r o n e d r o w n e d , i n

v e r y s h o r t o r d e r . They w e r e b o t h A c t i n g Deans w h i l e h e was

gone , j u s t b e f o r e h e came b a s k . So I ' m s u r e t h a t was a t r a u -

m a t i c r e t u r n f o r h im , t o come b a c k t o s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t .

Then h e a l s o h a d Food a n d D r u g t o w o r r y a b o u t . W h e t h e r y o u

a r e a w a r e o f t h a t e p i s o d e o r n o t , b u t t h e y w e r e m a n u f a c t u r i n g

d r u g s o u t t h e r e f o r d i s t r i b u t i o n t o t h e C a l i f o r n i a U n i v e r s i t y

S y s t e m a n d t h e y were n o t u p t o w h a t we w o u l d c l a s s a s a p r o p e r

s t a n d a r d s .

L o f s v o l d : T h e y w e r e n o t m e e t i n g g o o d m a n u f a c t u r i n g

p r a c t i c e s ?

H i l l : B u t t h a t ' s a l l t a k e n c a r e o f now, t h e y a r e n o l o n g e r

m a n u f a c t u r i n g .

The p r e s e n t C o m m i s s i o n e r , o f c o u r s e , h i s b i g p u s h i s

s o d i u m l a b e l i n g on o u r f o o d s , he b e i n g a c a r d i o l o g i s t a n d

h a v i n g managed a h y p e r t e n s i o n c l i n i c , t h a t w o u l d n a t u r a l l y b e

s o m e t h i n g h e ' d b e p u s h i n g f o r , I t h i n k .

As f a r a s I ' m p e r s o n a l l y c o n c e r n e d , I t h i n k i t ' s a g o o d

i d e a . I t d o e s n ' t b o t h e r me t o o much anymore . I c a n s e e t h a t

s a l t c a n h a v e p o t e n t i a l f o r Some harm, a n d I t h i n k we do u s e

t o o much s a l t . I t ' s a m a t t e r o f t a s t e , i t ' s a d e v e l o p e d

t a s t e . And y o u c a n u n d e v e l o p i t .

W e l l , t h e p r e s e n t e m p h a s i s o n d e r e g u l a t i o n I t h i n k ,

r e a l l y I t h i n k , i t ' s g o i n g t o b a c k f i r e i n a f e w y e a r s . I ' m

s e e i n g some t h i n g s , l i k e I saw a d e v e l o p m e n t j u s t t h i s week.

I g o t t h e w o r d on i t F r i d a y , a n d i t was c o n f i r m e d y e s t e r d a y .

Some t h i n g s a r e g o i n g t o h a p p e n t h a t a r e g o i n g t o p u s h u s b a c k

i n t o p o s s i b l y i n t o r e g u l a t o r y s t a n c e s . I was q u i t e u p s e t a n d

I know Chambers B r y s o n a n d h i s s t a f f f e e l s t h e same way.

The C a l i f o r n i a Wine I n s t i t u t e b a c k a b o u t 1 9 6 4 , a s a

r e s u l t o f t h e w o r k o f t h e R e g u l a t o r y A g e n c i e s , s e t u p t h e i r

own p o l i c i n g p r o g r a m . And t h e y h a v e h i r e d t h e i r own s i a n i -

t a r i a n s on t h e i n s p e c t i o n s t a f f a n d made u n a n n o u n c e d i n s p e c -

t i o n s and such . They j u s t w i p e d i t o u t t h i s weekend.

L o f s v o l d : F e l t t h e y d i d n ' t n e e d t o s p e n d t h a t money a lnymore?

H i l l : T h e i r r e a s o n i s b u d g e t a r y l i m i t a t i o n s . I was t a l k i n g

t o Chambers ' number t w o man y e s t e r d a y . T h i s i s g o i n g t o p u t

u s r i g h t b a c k i n t h e w i n e r i e s b e c a u s e o f t h e i r s e l f - p o l i c i n g ,

we d i d n o t d o i t . We j u s t k e p t a f i n g e r i n t o l e t t h e ~ m know

we a r e s t i l l h e r e , b u t we w e r e j u s t d o i n g i t on t h e v e r y

l i m i t e d s p o t c h e c k i n g b a s i s , v e r y l i m i t e d b a s i s . T h i s i s

g o i n g t o p u t u s b a c k i n t o b u s i n e s s . Somebody i s g o i n g t o h a v e

t o d o i t .

L o f s v o l d : So i t i s g o i n g t o b e e i t h e r FDA o r M r . B r y s o n ' s

S t a t e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h .

H i l l : N e i t h e r o f u s h a v e g o t enough r e s o u r c e s t o d o i t , e v e n

s p l i t t i n g i t . O f c o u r s e i t ' s g o i n g t o b e v e r y s p o r a d i c a n d

t h e f i r s t t h i n g w e ' r e g o i n g t o do, w e ' r e g o i n g t o h a v e a p r o b -

l e m c r o p u p and w e ' r e b a c k i n b u s i n e s s a g a i n . So I r e a l l y

t h i n k t h a t t h e d e r e g u l a t i o n , t h e e m p h a s i s o n v o l u n t a r y com-

p l i a n c e , i s a...what d o t h e y c a l l i t , I t h i n k t h a t w e ' r e g o i n g

t o s e e a t u r n - a r o u n d o n i t s o m e t i m e down t h e r o a d . O f c o u r s e

t h e c o n c e p t i s n o t new. You know a n d I know w e ' v e h a d t h i s

b e f o r e .

When E i s e n h o w e r was P r e s i d e n t h e h a d h i s C i t i z e n ' s

A d v i s o r y C o m m i t t e e t h a t l o o k e d a t o u r w o r k a n d o u r o p e r a t i o n s

and t o l d u s t h a t we s h o u l d e d u c a t e t h e i n d u s t r y a l i t t l e b i t

m o r e a n d we d i d . We e d u c a t e d t h e m a n d we t r a i n e d t h e m b u t

somehow i t j u s t d o e s n ' t t a k e l i k e a g o o d r e g u l a t o r y a c t i o n .

I t h i n k w e ' l l g e t b a c k t o i t Someday. I t h i n k t h e i n d u s t r y

i s , w e l l t h e r e i s n o q u e s t i o n a b o u t t h e s o p h i s t i c a t i o n a n d

t h e d e v e l o p m e n t t h a t h a s t r a n s p i r e d i n t h e p a s t 3 0 - 4 0 y e a r s ,

2 0 y e a r s , e v e n t h e l a s t 1 0 y e a r s . D e v e l o p m e n t i s i n c r e a s i n g

v e r y f a s t . B u t w i t h i t , t h e r e i s g o i n g t o h a v e t o b e some

c o n t r o l s on i t . I t ' s g o i n g t o b e u p t o t h e R e g u l a t o r y

1 A g e n c i e s t o e n f o r c e t h o s e c o n t r o l s . I n d u s t r y i s n o t g o i n g t o

do i t t h e m s e l v e s . They a r e i n t h e r e f o r t h e p r o f i t s t h a t a r e

t o b e made. T h a t ' s w h a t t h e y a r e i n b u s i n e s s f o r . You c a n ' t

b l a m e them. 1 d o n ' t b l a m e t h e m f o r m a k i n g p r o f i t s , i f t h e y

c a n do i t . T h a t ' s w h a t i t ' s a l l a b o u t , b u t somebody i s g o i n g

t o h a v e t o k e e p i t u n d e r c o n t r o l . We s t i l l h a v e some c h e a t e r s

o u t t h e r e and i t ' s g o i n g t o t a k e somebody t o r o o t t h e m o u t ,

f e r r e t t h e m o u t and make t h e m u n d e r s t a n d w h a t i t ' s a l l a b o u t .

L o f s v o l d : T h a t m i g h t b e a good n o t e t o c l o s e o u r i n t e f v i e w .

I w a n t t o t h a n k y o u , B i l l , f o r t a k i n g t h e t i m e t o g i v e u s y o u r

s t o r i e s a n d y o u r o p i n i o n s . They w i l l be u s e f u l , I t h i n k , f o r

w h o e v e r may b e l i s t e n i n g t o t h i s t a p e o r r e a d i n g t h e t b a n s -

c r i p t i n t h e f u t u r e . Thank y o u v e r y much.