~

•

•

ON RESUMING T 2 P.M.: I I ~ .~ __ ~~~A_S_O_~_I, still und roth

CROSS- INATION BY ACCUSED NO. I (CONTINUED):

e'r till t thi meeting hich you y took

plac t your hom , and if I r m mber v ry ell, I

ing you bout ~h t too pl ce t your m tinge No you

mention d omething bout No.5 ae ing you • •• a king No.2

h t th meeting bout, and you id th t th t took

place ter No. 2 h d id something bout reading book,

i th t corr ct?---H just nquired for the book. 10

So h t ct lly happened t t t me ting - the

m ting at ted dNa. 2 ted fter No.

5 eked hat the busin s of the day ?---Yes.

You y ther

t e the ewer?---T

that qu stion?---Yes.

t the purpos of th m -

ting e to organis ne members for P.A.C.

So th n the ana er w a given and the reading of th

boo st rted?---Then No. 5 er d that he h s lready long

go been or ise, d th t he only iting or c 11.

fter the book s r d?---Y s. 20

So this question of org i ing new m mbere a not

touched · t 11, except that No. 2 s id that he w e long or -

nised?---I think the re ding of the book e p t of th or­

g i t10n.

Th re ding of the book w s p rt of this work of

org ising mor member ?---Yee.

In wh t ~ Y auld the reading of a book be used to

organie more members?---It was to bring to those ho were

pr sent and who did not ctually 0 w t the P.A.C. movement

is to k th know h t the mov ment ctually ie. 30

To m ke that known to thoe who ere preeent?---Y e,

tho e ho re present nd were not member •

, l- 2,'1-- nention d tbre ?---Those th t I mentioned r the ones th t

1m • bout ho many p ople ere pres nt there?---Th r

could v b en 14 or mar •

ould I not b underet ding you corr ctly ••• ould

I not b und rstandin this thing carr ctly, this thing of

org ising more m mb r correctly, if I s y t t it e to

get mar m mb rs fro outeide?--There ere those ho ere

pr eent ther ho r not members, d they h d to b 10

told h t ct lly th mov ment e bout.

So do you gr e ith me then tl t ccording to your

opinion, the ding f the boo 9 int nd d only to co rce

tho ho re pr nt, to decide to Join th P.A.C. move-

ment?---y a, that is p rt of th org ia tion to influ nc

th m.

And that was 11. Nothing" a s id bout 0 g i ing

n memb r9 outSide, to thos

e just re d, and he t lked

t h boo 9 read.

ho er

bout it

pr sent?---The book

Just th pr f c of

20

It i stic. If I t to org i e mor memb r ,

sur ly I could go out in the street d get more mber,

or tell th people ho to get mor m mb r , by getting into

the etr eta, or getting into place like hall d foot-

b 11 to get more memb re, I cannot b ble to get on

m mber, just by re ding the pref ce out of bookl

ingle

The

p ople ill not know what I'm talking aboutJ I r d the

pr f ce out of book, nd I give the difference be~e n

Afric nism, or h t ver you 9 id or Nat·on Ii m or some­

t hing, d xpect people to follow me, by re ding th t and 3 0

dis us ing it. I don't think t t is ••••

BY THE COURT TO CeaSED NO. I: No, but No. 1 t t isn't wh t

• •

h ~ ide H

th t th r

id th t e:p t of th

division into c lle

organisation. Aft r

d 11 orts of other

thinge.---T t s not the meting I'm ref rring to y Lord.

Th t is Ii differ nt meting ntir lYe

hich m ting is this on ?---Th m ting th t took

pl ce at his 0 hom •

ell, that's 11 h said here, wae th t the book

discu s d. Accus d No. 5 aek d, ccused No. 2 spok

bout the difference b teen Communi m and Pan Africani m,

d then h told how the meting dev loped d w e die- 10

cus d. t when w e the statem nt made by No. 5 th t h

s re dy? en't that mad ••• oh, Y it ae immedi tely

b for th t, t t he id th t •

BY THE COURT TO ITNESS: Now was th t ~--~--~~~~--~--~

11 that dis cue-

sed t th t m eting?---Yes, th t' 11.

CROSS- INATION BY ACCUSED NO. I (CONTINUED):

You s 1d something which you m ntioned, the meeting

hich is 11 g d to h v t ken pl c at (7) hou • Ie th t

corr ct?--y •

No hen you told th Court bout the deliber tione20

of that m ttng, you e id t t it W B id th t Accused No.

2 W B going y, sam body wae to b put into his pl ce. Ie

that correct?---Actu lly, omebody k d and id 'ng that

No. 2 on't be in Atteridg ville 11 the time, ho ill t ke

his ork hen h is y, and th n h id h le v v ry-

thin into the hands of Accused o. 1.

~ e thi No. 2 an Execut·v Member then?---Yee,

from your pl c up to th t pI ce, he h s been dreesing

meetings.

In hat c pac1ty?---I don't kno in h t c p city,30

p rh pe e organie r.

You esume?---K eeume.

told m th t h ,s organising,

When he c me to my place

d hen I him at your

pl ce and t my pI ce I ssumed th t h

Did he tell you th t he w ~ an org

ising.

ser?---H c m

to me on a S turd vening, befor the me tihg at your

plac , and he told me that he w s organising •••

hy did you s Y th t you assumed? as it 8 an

fter thought?---Not an after thought.

hy do you s Y you aesumed?---Since he told me h

a8 organising, so when I w him at those meeting~, I

~sum d th t he was still doing org ising.

It is very strange, b caus when I sked you was 10

h an Executive Member or in h t c P city did h spe k there,

you did not come out ith th t, until ome time there ft rJ

Then e come to this meeting hich is alleged to h ve t k n

pi ce t the house of No. 1 Accus d. Then you mention d

the people who er present there?---Yes.

In ddition to those you say w re the members of

Executive Committe , you m ntioned No.8, is th t corr ct?--­

Yee.

Did you perh pe know wh t position is occupied by No.

8?---He s there as the c 11 leader. 20

s he invited to this meeting? Wh t did he come

to do there?---He c me there to invite two executive members

to come to his cell.

Then comes the meeting which is 11 ged to ve t ken

~ c in No. 16'8 place. You told the Court th t you c m to

my place, you found No. 16 there, and No.4. Then the rest

of us ent to No. 16 pI ce. Is that correct?---T' t i8

correct.

So e arrived there?---First of all you ent in the

hous and c me out with No.3. 30

BY THE COURT TO ITNESS: Now before th t house. I Iso have

~ome difficulty in understanding that. You s y you went to

• •

~'7S th hous of No. l?---He first came to m •

He c me to your house?---Then I '{ nt 1 th him to

hie house.

Th n you went to hi houa ?---Th re e got No. d

No. 16. From there the four of us t to No. 16'8 hou e.

And on the y?---B fore e rrived th re, he ent

into a houee and c me out ith No.3. And then e 11 nt

o No. 16's place.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ACCUSED NO. I (CONTINUED):

Allright. Will you tell the Court no what h p-. 10

pene from t he time e red in No. 16's g tee e got to

his gate, now tell th Court wh t h ppened th r after?--­

lked to n r th door of the house. No. 16, No. 4 and

3 nt into the house. Then two or thr e people c me out,

th n you and I ent in. Th re ere still som people in

the ho e, th n No. 16 told them to go out.

ho re thee people who ent out as e came in?

it m mber of the org nis ti on or just visitore?---I

didn't kno t th Y r there for

•

ere they in p r e, or fem 1 e or 1 e and fem 1 8~

---They ere 11 males.

Did e stand outsid for long time?---Not uite

long. Just for short hile. ,

re did we stand, do you know?---It e just 0 1'0-

sitethe front window.

hich windwu - the back room window, or the sitting

room window?---The sitting room indo.

Onw witness who s ys that we attend d that meeting,

s ys that No. 16 w s 11 the time th re with them, and hen

we came in, he m de a remark about on of the ccused 30

ther. Th t this man coming in is n ecutl.ve member,

and h suggested that there w s going to b Ex:ecutiv

- ~-

you think th t m is right?---No, I don't think h 'e

right.

Do you think you re right?---I' right, bee u

I tr v lled from your hou e ith Aceus d No. 16.

But it is suppos d to b No. 16 who ddr s d th

meting t No. 16's2pl c , before our ri I1---No, it's

ong.

S condly, v wer not standing opposite the

sitting room indow but another room's window - the b d- 10

roon indow, not the itting room windowJ---It is from

th t ~indo th t I could the p opl inside, and if it

e from th b droom windo , then I wouldn't h v be n

bl to e the people.

r. m sodi, pl s h Ip me to und rstand. Two

of you re saying two diff r nt things Itogetherl I'm

trying to think b ck to wh th r th r w such

m ting or not, but there' t 0 differ nt reports from the

B m people, ho tt nded the ery m ting~- No ho

must I b 11 - you or th pr vious m ? Philip og a ? 20

---I'm telling you wh tIs •

I must beli v you?---Yee, definitely.

I mustn't b liev him?---I don't kno •

(Discussion bet en Court nd • H rwood).

You r no the econd p reon ho giv an ccount

of thi me ting, nor the first, as f s my m mory ryes

me, you re the third if not the fourth. I'm just g tting

the impr s ion th t thi meeting you r t lking bout,

right no , hen ver t k n pl c. It is just, s I have

1d b fore, er tion of your mind, you p opl • t 30

do you ay bout th t?---It i nIt acre tion of my mind.

Entering th hollS ••• entering the g t ct lly you go

southw rd, and the first windo th t you com to, is th

sitting room window So e didn't ct lly p ss th door,

w stopped b c me to th door.

I w t to t ank you for th t exp1 tion, the other

witn ss said we p ss d the door, and then stood t that

window. So, I'm king this qu stion - th door then w

b tw en the pl ce wh re w were st nding d the gate.

Th t m ans fter h ving passed the door, nd he s id yes.

Now one oth r thing, I'm not going to get on this thing

of c rdin 1 points ag in, but I'm going to sk you to

point the dir ction right now. Just t 11 m wh r is th t10

house f cing? ould you s y it's facing?---It·s f c~ng

t.

Is it f g this w y?--Y s.

Now if p rson tells you t t he d be n to o.

16'8 pI ce d th t hOllS is facing this w y, wh t would

you think bout bim?---If h say more or 1 ss north, th n

he would be correct, bec e it is not f cing directly est.

He doesn't s y more or 1 ss, h s ys this w y?---

11 th t c 't go on the record. The witn s s ys it

is f cing thi w y.

BY THE COURT TO ITNESS: It f c s North?---Yea. CROSS-EXAMIN TION BY ACCUSED NO~ (CONTINUED):

Now it i ith r that you r li ing, or th pre-

vious witn sses r lieing. And to my mind, i th re s h

gr t differenc bout the ccounts given by differ nt

p opl bout the sam thing, to my mind it is proved th t

20

it is wh t you discussed mongst yours Ives. You cr ted

meting th t nev r w s heldl Wh t do you say bout that?---

I have not discussed ~t with y witness.

You er sked qu stion by the Pros cutor h - 30

ther you knew Philip ogas or not. Do you still rem mber

s er hic you g v ?---Philipi Mo s ?

Yes?---I don't think th Pro cutor k d m euch

qu etion,

BY THE COURT TO WITNE-22: ell th r wer two p ople - the

on w a Philip d the other w e Biato.

ACCUSED NO. I: Y s, this ia Philip og sw. Th Prosecutor

eked him bout Philip og s •

CROS,X- INATION BY ACCUSED NO. I (CONTINUED):

You said you id not kno him?---No.

When you whim ••• hen you se him right now, do

you r cognis him to be a p rson who ttended th t m ting?lO

---Actually I n v r took p rticular notic of th p ople

ho ere there. I would not b in position to identify

th m.

Did he not tell you th t h ttended th t m ting,

hilst you re togeth r now?---No, be didn't.

You don't discu sed bout thia?--- h ve not di -

cussed it.

No here g in you tell us about No. 16, ho went

out to go d look for the speaker for the night. Is that

tru ?---Yes.

You re th first one to come out with th t point

if my memory serves m ell?--- ell, th t is hat happened.

Then you spoke bout y t another meeting her

20

you mentioned aomething bout

sid, e r port from No. ~.

eapons, this I think, s you

Do you r m mber bout t t?

---Yea.

No h n No. 4 ve the report, you id you er

not in favour of the r port being given t th t me ting?--­

First of 11 I said No.4 e not sent by us to Vl kfon-

tein to go and look for report, and that the report 30

s not tnt nded for us. It went nded for the Vl

fontein peopl •

You s id I opposed it?---you s id you don't gr ith

m , b e use if th r port is not re d, you 1on't kno the

good th t th r por holds for you.

Do you remember ything s id by yother m mb r

t th t m ting? On this question of th r port? --No,

the oth rs gr d 1ith you d then th report s re d.

I'm putting it to you th t you just ere ted

story, nd th n you hop th t the Court will beli v you,

8 much s you hope th t the Court ill b lieve you hen

you m ntion this other m ting th t ltv just sk d you 10

boutJ---Wbat I h v s 1d is just the truth in it's p r-

f et form.

Then you w r sk d this queation whether ybody

e me to you t r you er sho ing signs t t you r r-

luct t no in tt ding furi7h etings, d you a id

John c me to your plec , ntly coming

th re, and suggested to you or m d you fe 1 th t the

m mb ra of the organis tion er t sting your feelings?--­

Th t's true, bee use heme the irat time and I told

him I h d no mon y. ithin the very s m month heme 20

g in. Why did he think I'v got mon y, bec uae it e

still the s me month. Where did he think I got mon y from.

Th month had not y t nded.

You s y you got th impression that he w s sent to

you to follow your feelings. Tell me now, is it not p rh ps

better to test your f lings by asking you to come to me -

tings, eking you for money for him?---Yes, that

part c me to me wh n he c me to me for the second time,

bee use I did not see y reason why he should come to me to

borro money twice in one p tieul r month, particularly 30

s I told him th first time that I h d no money_

But do you gree with m that if p rson feeling

•

eked to att nd me tinge, or per p5 written a 1 tt r and

give re sons hy he doesn't tt nd meeting ?---Th t might

hay b en ct lly th oth r f y, but it depende on the

p rson ho h s ct lly got to de I ith it, h ~ he s ys.

cells

andi

Th n you l re sk a th q estion hether thee

re und r th Executivee, und r

d the reet of th p ople?---Ye •

, meaning you,

Do you rememb r th t question?---Yes.

And th n you s id th Y ere suppos d to ttend thelO

m etings to get instructions? --Y s, th tis hy the cell

1 ders h d to tt nd m etinga th us.

As an cutive member, do you r m mb r ny instruc-

tiona given to th s cell Ie ders?---Not t the meeting

that I ttended. Ther was no instructions given.

Eut these cell Ie ders were pr s nt in one or t 0

me tings?---Yes.

or th purpoae of g tting instructions?---Ap1' r ntly

th re re no instructions to be giv n.

Eec use they ~ere given no instructions?---Yes. 20

No in answering a question, you eaid th t there

s R gion I Committee th t h d to handle such things ••••

BY THE COURT TO ACCUSED NO. I: He s id he sk d whether

there s R gion 1 Committee, d he as told th t there

was no such Committee?---Yes, I t to ask him wh t

prompted him to sk th t qu etion?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ACCUSED NO. I (CONTINUED):

---Eecaus they ere t lking bout e pons d

th t you re just going str y, and 1f ther

then

s

body perh p , or lderly people, they ould p rh 1'S

you.

I f It

high r

control

Wht ere th y saying bout e pons? rf re they

trying to g t th typ of we pons to b us d, or getting

reports from other bodiee. Were reports to be used nd so

30

on.

•

ere th Y trying to think bout eapons th ms Ives?---No,

the report th t s given ~ firstly, they called on all

m mb rs to collect we pons of 11 kinds, d then give the

e pons f Ise mes, referring to them

to p1 y on the instruments ould me n an

hite •

8 instrum nts, and

tt c on the

Just confine yours If to my questions ple Be •

R m sodi?---I'm trying to do so. So if person then tIs

of e pons, there is me ning behind it. You can't just

collect e pons for no re son. 10

No in other ords, you m an this thing of we pons

w discussed by this body and you r g rd d this body tn-

, to discuss such things Am I right

by s ying so?---Not th t it 8 diBCUS ed, but that the

report llow d to b r d th re. I didn't t th r-

port to b re d, b c us it t lked of pons. I h ve no

int rest in w pons, d you ct lly gr d th t it should

b r ,and that is the thing th t prompted me to ask h-

there gion 1 Committee.

So if th r s any R gion, do you think that

w s the body th t ~ s fit to discuss e pons?---Perh ps

I ould ppe 1 to it d try and pump some re son into it •

But then here is p rson re ding report befor

you, if you ted l~k bet een you d the pl ce where

this r port comes from, you definitely} ve to go through

that p rticular man, bee use the report surely comes from

th t R gion 1 or 7h t ver higher body ther ia?---That iB

hy I anted to know whether there w s any Regional Com­

ittee, and beth r this Region 1 Committe had actu lly

20

ccepted th t report. 30

h n this mUll r

y it c me?---H s id h

d this report, from where did h

brought it from VI kfontein.

in Vl rfmntein?---Ther re people

in Vlakiontein, If th report w s read t V1 ont in,

it must h ve come through first through the R gion 1 Com­

mittee, d I w ted to know wh ther the Region 1 Committe

h d ccepted it.

From whom in Vl kfontein did this report come?---He

8 id be brought it from Vl kfontein, d the r port c m

rom Head Office.

I und rstand you: From ~hom in Vlakfontein?---From

m mbers of V1 kfont in. 10

embers from the Branch, Ex cut1ve or wh t?---From

the V1 kfontein p opl ho r doing ct 11y the s me thing

th t e re doing, th t is from th P.A.C. embers.

I m finding it very difficult to under tand your

xp1 tio~ because I think, it is my opinion, they re

lac ing something v ry great d th t kes it impossible

for me to apprehend them, and th t something hich lacks

in them is the truthJ

ACCUSED NO. I: No further questions.

AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS UNTIL THE

18TH JUNE 1~63 AT 10 A.M.

-

•

ON RES ING ON THE 18/6/63:

~R_OB~E~R~T ___ ~_A_S_O_~_I, still under 0 th

CROSS- INATION BY ACCUSED NO.2:

r. R masodi when did the me ting t Accus d No. l'

place t ke pl ce?---It was In J nuary but I don't know th

d te.

But you are quit sure th t it w in Jan ry?--­

Yes, I'm quite sur •

And you s id to the Court yesterday th t I told the

g th ring ther th t Accus d No. 8 s cell 1 d r ot

Bl ck Rock, ccused No. 6 C 11 1 d r of Central cell, and

Accused No. 16 C 11 le der of Ghost Town cell?---Yes.

As f r s I lmo Accus d No.6, e s id in evi-

dence here, selected in the third meeting of th Centr

Cell, and I only knew Accus d No. 8 at the Centr 1 Prison,

d h told me th t he only sBoci ted ith theBe things,

bout th 14th of F bru y. So th t I nev r s 1d any such

10

1

thing t any such m tingJ--- ell, t th t m ting you id

that.

It's quite signific nt, th t wh t you re sayin 20

s ems to be "h t s s id in vidence, but unfortun tely

it happened after Janu ry and not in January. So that I

h v got the impression th t your story h a been coo edJ--­

It has not been cook d.

I put it to you th t I nev r ttended any Buch

meetingJ---I got th inform tion from Jeff, Accus d No.1,

and then in th ev ning you, Accused No.2, repe ted the

e thing that No. 1 h d told me.

Then you also t lk d of meeting that too pI ce

t P sh 's house?---Y s.

And you s id th t I

r t that meeting.

s t th t mee5ing too?---You

And the only thing you could rem mb r about th t

meeting is th t it W B e id t that m ting th t I B

30

.... leaving Pr tori ?--- ot ere 1 ving Pretori ,

but th t you ere not al ye in Pretoria, and then they

ted to kIlo hen you wer y, ho v a goin to t k

your pI ee.

Ther 'a somett-ing phon y bout th t, bee use th

hal of last year, I ~ in Pr tori J---~ell, that is t

a id t th t meeting.

I put it to you u-. R m sodi, th t I s never at

meting t 's houseJ---You ere p aking t th t

meeting hen I e me in. 10

Th n you Iso told th Court bout a meeting th t

took pl ee t your houae?---Yes.

You told the Court that I ked for a book from you?

---Ye •

During the meting, ere you in the meeting 11 the

tim, or ere you lw ys going out to the door, d 1 t

the p ople in ho

h t I nt out

r coming to your house?---Th only time

s hen th t boy went for the book.

For ••• ?--1 s still in the hous. I 8 in the

kitchen. 20

Whose book w this?---Th t book did not belong to

me. I told you that th book b longed to Jo , and th n you

s d that Jo auld not refuse to give th book.

has the Joe you're tal ing bout?---Joe bote.

You s Y I re d from th pref ce of th t book?---Yee,

you told Accused No. 4 to re d from th pref c •

And then I discussed the contents of the pre ce of

th t book?---Shortly, yes.

You've re d the book yourself, haven't you?---No,

h v not read it. 30

• m sodi, I put it to you that wh t happened t

t· meting s th t you could not conduct the discu aione

" ~ be t the me ting 11 th time. You've got to meet p ople

t th door, ho com in your hous , d then you told me

to conduct discussions, and then I told you that didn't

kno t to do. Th n you g ve m th t book, which I g v

to Accused No. 5 to re d, and then e discussed th content

of the pr f c of th t book: And I put it to you in,

• R m eodi, th t in th pref ce of t t book there'e

nothing bout th Pan Afric nist Congress of South Afric :

h t is in th contents of that boo~ is policy philoBo- 10

phy of Pan ric ism! It h s nothing to do ith the organi-

tion of South Afric s suchl

BY THE COURT TO I~iESS: Is th t correct?---I've not read the

book. ~ n you re d from that book, you r d bout P

Afric ism in Atric , not in South Afric, s have been

originated in South Africa, nd th t it origin ted from

th Africans,

ideology.

d th t it e not influ nc d by Y oth r

CROSS- INATION BY ACCUSED NO. 2 ~CONT N ) : ,..

What 1'm saying Mr. Ram sodi, is th t h t w s in20

the pref ce of th t book,

concern its 1£ with th or

e not ••• the pr face did not

ising of political org i5-

one in th diff r nt cOUlttries. Th y w r sort of ivin

picture of Pan Afric ism politic 1 philo oph r

distinct from communism: Did you g t th t impre sion?--­

I don't know. I hav not re d it.

And you s id to th Court th t in that book Iso

e s id th t Europe e could not be m mb rs of the Pan

ric ist Organis tion?---I didn't s y th t.

What did you e y?---I did not e y th t th Europe

could not be members. I s id it w s mov m nt only among

Africans., ving b n st rted by Africans.

-S -

Then you lso said I a organiser of the Afri-

~C~ist Organis tion in Atteridgevil1e, didn't you?---You

c me to me in J d told me th t you were organising.

You wer ith two othere.

• aodi, I put it to you th t I was n ver

or iser of th Pan Africaniat Congr a in retori l--­

When you w re ddressing me ting t my p~ c , you er

sked q tion by Accused No.5, d you a id it e

for org niaing.

I put it to you Mr. amaaodi th t I was never an 10

org niser of the Afric ist ongress In Pretori , and

that 11 wh t you h ve been s ying bout the meeting in

P sh 's house, d th meeting at Accused No. l's ho~e,

is c ee of Ii J---No, all th t I ve id is true.

Particu1 rly id I t ke into consider tion the f ct ••

?---And you kno , c1 r1y th t it is tr~e:

P ticularly if I take into consideration the fact

that I only kne Accused No. 8 t Pr tori Centr I d he,'

him If told me that h only esociat d ith this movement 20

during the middle of Febr ry, and Accus d No. 6 e elect d

Ie der of th Centr 1 cell, in the ~.A.C. meeting hieh took

pI ee, think in F bruaryl---All th names that I've given

h r , I got trom you d Jett, Accused No.1.

ACCUSED NO.2: No further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ACCUSED NO.3:

Ramasodi, you ay you are a memb r of the

c nist Congress &nce 1960?---1 was.

Afri-

By then the org n. " s not b

Before th t, it w a not banned.

ed, as you s y?---

To hieh branch did you then belong?---When I 30

first became memb r, it was not bann d.

To hich br ch did you then belong?---Atteridgeville.

-v

~ ttl branch of th P Af'ric niat Congr es ill Att ridgevill J--

had.

Who as th on irman?---You er th ch irm •

In 1960?---Y s.

I s ssoci ted th n with the L dy Selbourne br ch

d not ith th Atteridgevi11 branch! So I could not

h ve b n chairman of a branch in Atteridgevillel---You were

in Atteridgevillel

Do you rem mber th day of 11th April 1963?---Y s.lO

It s h n e" r t th 10 er Court, yes.

Th t's right. No do you remember diacu aion I

h d ith you on th t d y?---Yee, the discus ion as that you

h d given your conf eaion.

And h t did you say to me?--- ell, I d nothing to

say_ I eked you if you h d start d your statement, nd

you s id ye •

Did you not s y to me then "why are you p ople giving

up th fight 0 soon"?---No, I didn't Y that.

Did you not t 11 m ••• a k m r ther, " hy did you 20

not point out to th gistr te about the polic sault

that took place?"?---No.

• Bodi, I can understand your b ing in th t

itne s box tod Y but hat I fail to und retand, is th t

you should have undergone such compl te m t morpho is in

such a ehort period of time, that you c 1 yen deny your­

self?---The only discussion I had ith you, I only asked you

hether you g1v in your conf ssion, dIsk d you

hether you had lre dy igned your st t nt, and th t·s

all. 30

You have been eo intimated by th Police section,

th t tod Y you are no more th fr edom fighter hich you

re before your r stZ---The Polic ve never int1mid ted

~4 I )

You, in your dence eaid that t on time or

another, you er g tting Jit n rvous about P •• C. e-

tivitie. Am I right or rong?---I d cided not to go to y

meetings.

I an, if I'm not misquoting you, you said in ane-

er to th Pros cutor, t you sort of bee me b~t ner-

vous, and you stopp d ttending any meetinge of the P.A.C.?

---Yes, th t is corr ct.

Wh t I can't understwd Mr. m sodi, is th t 10

from 1960, you el im you h e been m mb r of the P

rieani t Congr s, d I t ke it, rom 1960 to 1963,

you ere 1 ye, h t w e c ~led an hon at m mber of the

Pan Africanist Congr ee, in th t you did it mostly in its

id ale. Am I right or rong?---Not Itogether.

Did you not b lieve in the ide Is of the P Afri-

canist Congrees?---Y s, at first I did believe, but 1 ter

on I ch ged my 1d e.

h t brought bout your r pent ce • eodi?---

ything brought y repentance, I thought bout 20

it and f It that it ould act l1y benefit m nothing.

Do you mean b ing free m n in your own country,

one ill not benefit in any

f~ght for that freedom.

y?---It 11 depends ho you

I'm not spe king about figthing for your freedom •• ?

---Wheth r in the fight it would bring you y b n fit.

I'm not just pe king bout fighting for r edom,

K'm peaking bout when you e free in your own

country ••••

BY THE COURT TO ACCUSED NO.3: H anewered your que tion: 30

You sked him h th r it en t benefit to be reman

in your own country, d he id it depend on ho you fight

, ~\ and get your fr edomJ wer h ve youl---

I nt d to kno My Lord, if he i fr m in his 0

country, ill th t not benefit him?

His s r to th t ie, it dep nd on ho you fight

d obtain your fr doml

CROSS- INATION BY ACCUSED NO.3:

Mr. R m sodi, now seeing that you are member of the

Pan Africani t Congrese, I t ke it th t it is because you

f It you be free man in your own country. Do

you still teel th s m w y?---I m ree I m. nd 10

I've be n fre 11 th tim.

i th 11 this bantust e ging over your he d,

do you c 11 yourself free man?---Yes, ven ith th t.

Ae I y, you hay undergon compl te m t morpho is.

Th re is this m ting t No. 16's pl ee, the Executive m

ting you l1eg took pI ce there, and if 11m not wrong,

you s id Accused No. 1 came to your placet coll cted you

th re, d on your y you p esed at Accused No. lis p1 c

coll cted o. 16 d No. th ret and as you went on, I

t

e picked up t on hous long the y, d then you pro-20

ce ded to ards the me ting pl ce you s y. Am I right?---

Th tie true.

here w s this hous her I s picked up?---It'

in Mokwele etreet. I

What typ of hou e was that - my friend's pl ce,

hebeen house, or what?---I don't kno hether itte your

friends' house or whether it is shebe n hou • I it the first time you e m in pl ce like th t?

In that house p ticular1y?---I hav not seen you in th t

p1 ce. In f ct, No.

out ith you.

Accused nt into ther d c m 30

Now could you recount to the Court, as you r counted

- -;;v

yeeterd y, hat h pp ned hen e r ached No. 16'e p1 ce?---

h n e re ched it there, No. 16 and No.4 d you ent in.

Accused No. 1 and I remained outside, ome people then nt

out, then we went in, then there were still some people

sitting inside, and No. 16 told them to go out, d they

ent out.

If I'm not wrong, yeeterday you didn't mention any-

thing bout 16 and "4 to the Court. t you s id was Accu­

sed No. 3 ent into the house and th t you d No. 1 stood

outside? 10

BY THE COURT TO CCUSED NO.-l: ell, No . 16 must have gone

into the house, b c use he e id No. 16 told th m to come

out?--P rdon.

He said yest rd y, No. 16 told the other people to

come out, eo No. 16 must have gone into the house.---Yee,

but I s keen to he r h t had happen d to No. 4 in the

procese.

No.4? B c use No. 16, h said specifically No.

16 went in I c 't find it at the moment but he did e y

t t No. 16 w s inside and •••• well one of th assessors 20

h s note that he s id 4 and 16 ent into the house. That

s in cross-examin tion by No.1.

CROS,.;,.S-.;-;;;;;;:;;;;;.=I.;;.;;NA~T;;..I;...;O;.;.;N~BY;;;....;;A.;.;;C~C..;;;.U~SED:::;:;.....;;;.N:..::;O..!. • ....:3::.......:(...,;:C~0.;;.;;N.;;;.;TINUED;;;;.;.;;;.;;;;;;.~) :

Are you sure r. R maaodi, th t th~s meeting took

pl ce?---Quite sure.

Is it not perhaps that your im gin tion is running

ild now th t you estate witneee?---It 1s not my

imagan t10n, it is what actually took plac •

Is it not perh pB that you t to get your freedom

t our expenee?---Not that. 30

No that you disown the very things th t you be­

lieved in in the past. Now tone st ge you e id to the

Court, that you were m de Secret ry of the Pan Africani t

Congr e~ in Atteridg vill • am I right?---Ye~.

h t duties did you perform S cretary?---In fact,

I performed nothing since I was elected.

Do you h ve any r ason forthat?---Because the only

meeting that I att nd d that wa~ really a m et1ng, w ~ the

one at my pl ce, when they r d th report, from Vl kfont in.

Oh, your fictitious me tinge Y s, bout that m e­

tung bout th report from V1 kfontein, you ~ id I s id ome-

thing b ing childish?--Y s.

t a:! childish?---You said th r port sounded

childish.

hat report?---The report th t s re d by Accused

No. •

Did I perh ps go on to s y h t w s childish in the

report?--No. You just aid th t the hol thing :!ounds

childish.

Mr. R m sodi, I put it to you, th t such meting

n v r took pI c t your pI ce: I don't remember tt ndin

10

that meeting J---You'll know deep in your con cienc d 20

that ill t 11 you th t it is 0 The m tin took pI ce,

nd those ords er id by you, fter th meeting.

I don't r m mber ay1ng such things. You said you

were Secretary. Now could you xplain h t c used you to

f il c rrying out your duties secret ry of the Pan Afri­

c nist Congre s?

BY THE URT TO ACCUSED NO.3: I'm orry I didn't he r your

qu stion'.---( itness, as well s interpreter al~o did not

h r question) .

IN TION BY ACCUSED NO. 3 (CONTINUED):

h t was the c use for your f ilur in c rrying out

your d"ties Secr t rY?---There wer no dutie act lly

sSigned to me, and I didn't ttend to 11 the meeting:!.

30

You s y th r w re no dutiee, you me you had no

ork to do ith th organi tion?---There ere no duti

ct lly s ign d to m t r th el ct1ons .

I mean S cr try's first duty is to keep roll

of all th members of your ••• ?---No, I w s not actually

wld to k ep ro~i for 11 the members.

You don't h v to b told that. As Secr try, it

your duty to do th t: You re responsible m ,I take

it you hould knowJ---I didn't h ve intereet, because I

didn't ttend 11 the me tinge. Th fi st meeting that 10

you p ople held, I c me ther and told you th t my brother

sick and I ent off, nd the only m ting that I r lly

ttended, s th on t my plac , hen di fered on the

report .

Did you not ttend the me ting wh re you ere elec­

ted th S cret ry?---Y s, I ttended th t me tinge

But you say you ttended only th meting that took

pl c t your pl c, nd I donlt rem mber th t one:---But

that meeting w e specifically just for th election, and

ther w e no busin ss hich took place, except th t Accu d20

No. 8 ked t 0 of ecutivee members should hie cell.

Tell me, is it re lly necessary for you to t 11

li ?--- • Because I remember on th ev ning you came to ue

and made an pology, you told us that your half-brother h d

passed a y, d tl t your ife had not bent home for

two or thr e d ye and e buey t this d th, d th t you

h d to r h v ry d y to ee that you Siv your childr n

something to eat and then tt get to the meeting.

Ie th t not what you told us?---No, I told you my brother 30

sick.

You told us about the death of your h If-brother:---

I told you of my broth r.

I only re lised it w s a lie hen Sergeant G y er

P id me visit I as at th Pretoria North Celle when

h told me that you told us lie hen you

brother 8 dead. but I could not imagine a

id your half­

like your-

self coming to tell us a Ii about deathJ---I didn't t 11

them bout death. I only told them about my brother being

ick. th t's 11.

But now I know hen it's convenient for you to lie

Mr. Ram odi, you will do so s you are doing nowJ

ACCUSED NO.3: No further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ACCUSED NO.4: -r. R m sodi, you eaid you 'oin d the P.A.C. in

1960?-.t--Ye •

10

I cannot und r t nd hy man lik yourself, should

be etanding in th t box, who joined P.A.C. in 1960.---I

under tand it.

I ould und rstand it~ it ere some of theee young

~en ho h d just joined P.A.C.

BY THE COURT TO ACCUSED NO.4: Th re e queetion you mu t20

kl You mustn't m ke a speechJ Aek him questions:---Yes,

My Lord, I'm coming to that.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ACCUSED NO. 4 (CONTINUED):

And then you said that sometimes you bec me nervou ?

---Yes.

What caused you to becom nervous?---Just because I

d~dn't like the hole thing.

No, I know wh t c used you to b nervoue - it w e

that you were fraid to be rreeted d that the Police were

going to beat you upl Is th t so?---No. 30

Speak the truth Mr. Ramasod1J---I didn't know that

the Police ere going to arrest ue. I just didn't like the

- ~~-

s~ whol thingl

Oh, you didn't know that th Police were going to

rr et us?---No, I didn't.

But you lmow a man belonging to b d org is-

tion, th t you e li ble to be arrested?---But you n v r

kno hen they re coming.

But, in f ct, you knew that you w r go1ng to be

restedJ---No, I didn't know.

r. Ram sodi, you are an old m , I'm st~ll young,

and so I shouldn't m e you feel shamed by telling you 10

th t you e spe king lie nowJ---You r at lib rty to

say anything.

As you re at liberty to ape lies in this CourtJ

---I'm her to sp k the truth.

And th you spoke bout me ting where I ve

report?---Yee, th t at my place.

Don't you think that i I wanted anything to do, I

ould hav gon to No. 3 or No.1, hom you eay ere ch 1r­

man or something 1ik th t?--- ccus d No. 1 ct lly e id to

t the meeting th t you h d report to re d •• Th t 20

means th t you h d lready told him.

Th report w s from?----You s id you took it at

Vlakfontein.

r. Ram sodi just t 11 me, when w s this me ting?---

I think it w bout the 1 t eek of F bruary.

I can't em mb r it, Is th t the d y hen you cam

to us for some moneY?---Not for some money.

But I can't just remember thi me tinge I it not

perhaps beea e you wer se ed eo 0 wh n the Police e m

they ould give you a besting up, 0 you tho ht of this 30

m ting?

BY THE COURT TO ACCUSED NO.4: I e n't h r you t 11,

You must speak upS

•

-655- R. lW SODI .

.2!!Q§S-EIAMINATION BY ACCUSED NO.4 ,lQONTlNUED):

I it not b cause the Police gave you some beating

up, and so you just imagine things?---I'm not imagining

things, I'm elling you wh t dually h ppened.

But t 1e st you hr some be ting up?---I w ~ not

be ten.

I see. ell thankyou Mr. Ramasod~ for the lie~

you have told this Court.

ACCUSED NO.4: No further que~tions.

CROSS- INATION BY ACCUSED NO.5:

When did you start or king in the Atteridgeville

Municip 1 Offices?---1962 The b ginning of 1962.

10

hen you issue d statement~, you stamp them with

the month for ihich th yare. S y it' jun, then you stamp

June, if It's y then it' stamped May. Isn't it?---I

don't issue them. They re is u d by others .

C you think of a rand st tement st mped with two

months, say August and y?---I don't under tand your ques-

on.

Allright, I'll ask you the quest~on lateron. You20

h ve giv n dat in January when meeting w s held h n

c 11 division s explain d, where No.1, 2, 4, nd 5 ere

pre~ent. Are you sure of the pproximate dat of that mee-

ting?---No, I'm not sure of th

~ on Mond y.

pprox1mate d teo I kno it

Do you rememb r what I ~aid at th t meeting?---Yes.

You id nothing.

I s id nothing?---Only Accus d No. 2 spoke at th t

meting.

Now a bout th meeting t your house here the 30

book s re d, wh r I aid wh t 3 the me ting bout - do

you think eked th t question kno ing hat the meetin s

bout?---you didn't sk me, you sked No. 2 Accused wh t

•

-656- R. RAMASODI

the purpo e of the meejing.

If man ks what is the purpose of meeting, do

you think h kno s the purpos or he does not know the pur­

pose of th t m eting?---I ould think he does not know the

purpo e of the meting.

So you th~ I did not kno th purpose of the

me ting?---Y a, you aked that question. No. 2 e rather

at loss, he ponder d first before h answered the question.

No do you think I h d come to the meeting, or for

omething elee?-- 'f 11, you had come to th meting. 10

I put it to you th t I h d becom b cue you had

made mi t ke in my r n~ statement: h t do you s y to

th t?

BY THE COURT TO ACCUSED NO~ Beca ee he m de a m~st e

in?---In my rent atatem nt.

CROSS- INATION BY ACCUSED NO. 5 (CONTINUED):

----- That is Itogether rong. All mi t k e re correc­

ted at th offic, not at my house •

And that I had found it convenient to go to your

hou e nd point out the mist ke to you, so that you could 20

t ke it to the office, so th t you can correct itJ hat

do you eay to that?---No, that is altogeth r o • Do you deny the existence of such errore, rent

t tement that has b en stamp d t ic ?---Ho et ped t ic ?

S Y August nd Septemb r?---Th t could have been an

office mist ke. I don't deal 1th those st mpe. It's tho e

peopl ho de I with those stamping ork. I don't see ho

you could have brought that to me, b caus I don't de 1 ith

th t.

You all g th,t I used the ords "I m long org - 30

ni ed". Is th t tru J---True.

Let's g t into th po sible m aning ~ tll t 1'!,~6-

•

ion "I am long org ised". Do you think g if lit persone

e yt!J "I am long organised", do you think h mean h ha~

agre d to the purpose of the meeting? Vhich is organie -

tion?---Not ex ctly agreeing to the purpose of the me ting,

but, th t you ere

long. You have b

m mber of the sam organisation for

long a member of the or nisation.

m Bodi, I m not going to go into this long

businees of yours, the indictment under which I'm appe ring

here, st te that from the 1st January 1963 to th 31st of

ch. So forget th t long b in ss of yours. I 11 10

confine me to this ~ riod of thre monthe J--- en you ans-

red No.2, you s i you re long m mber. Your actu 1

ords ere "I am long organ! ed, d I'm only aiting for a

c 11".

Doee it m n then th tIgre d with the purpo e of

that meeting t th t pl ce t th t time? Do th ee orde

conv y th t meaning?---It could b so.

I don't ant any v gue an er. Do these ords

convey the meaning that I am at one with tho e peopl at that

meting, or I m not?---you ere one ith them.

Theee ords convey the meaning?---Y e.

You allege that a book w e read something like the

pref ce?--Yee.

You read it. I e that book objectionable liter ture

a far e you c think?---I think it'e obj ction ble.

Wh t m kes you think so?---Bed

b ed book.

I kno it'~

20

Ho did it come to your house?--It en't 1n my house.

It w s collected from it'e owner.

ho W B t the meeting?---He was not t the mee- 30

tinge

And you think I agreed with the contents of that

book t your home?---You didn't give opinion, you only

read.

•

•

I did not given opinion, eo you don't know

hether I agreed with the contents of the boo or not?---

I ouldntt know, bec us you did not expr s opinion.

Wh t do you r member I aid at the Executive Mee­

t~g you llege th t I att ded? Let's B y where the elec­

tion took pl c. Do you re mber everything I ~aid?---

Wh t you ~aid there s, hen No.1 Accused ~ id we ehould

vot ,you aid it ~ould b a ting tim to vot, 11 you

hould do i get m 11 p per~ d rit the name~ down there

the names of p rsons ho re ct lly in f vour of it ••• 10

ho r in favour of, and ri te do his n e and ay

ch irman. rit the cond hether you w t him to be

n me and tell h ther you t hi' to be S cr tary, and

it the third name of th person whom you ant to be

tr sur r, nd then did eo. Then handed the p per

over to you.

Those re import t orde, r th y not important?

One of the mos t imp ortan t ords of th meeting, i n't it?

---.... hy did you not ~ y tho e ord to ••• ?---There

nothing discussed, it w e just the 1 ction th t took

20

pI c , d then it took 1'1 ce in thi manner that I've just

deecribed.

hat you allege I have e id is v ry important, t

meeting her v ry few things re discuse d. Is th t not

important?---Yee, it is.

Why did you not mention tho e 'portant orde in

your evidenc in chief.

~~~~~~~~T~O~C~O~UR~T: The an er to th t ie MY Lord, be-

c use I didn't sk him. 30

CROSS- INATION BY ACCUSED NO. 5 ~CONTlNUED):

fuy d idn 't you Bay tho ords in your evidence in

•

-659- R. RAMASODI.

your evidene in chief?

MR. HARWOOD objects to this question, bec uee it's so ob-- -vious.

£Y THE COURT TO ACCUSED NO.5: The evidence n't led hen

he giving his evid nce in chief. He n't ked th t.

Witnesses e h re to ere questions, and som times he's

allo ed to go on giving ana ers, to giv his own story.

More often than not, he is a ked the questions and h s ers

them.---I ant to put it to the itnees that, he having not

s id those ord in his evidence in chief, proves th t ther

s nothing of the sort that w s said. 11

Now you hav the po ition th t be

that. Do s it still prov ?

sn't a k d about

CROSS- NATION BY SED NO.5 (CONTINUED):

How many members ere on your ecutive?---We ere

fiv •

And you know 11 their portfolio? You kno who

held this position, d ho held t t one?---Yee.

Ie it possible, on Buch mall executive for one

or t 0 members not to be xact bout th position held by 20

any other?---I don't understand that.

I it possible on such sm 11 Executive, for one or

tom mbers not to kno ho holds what position?---Well, I

thl.nk I kno et lly h t positions they held.

Then you'r ure I held hat po iti~n?---You ere

ju t an ordinary . mb r of the Executive.

And you think I agreed to being a member?---You did

rot object.

You said in your evid nee in chief that some of the

p ople ho ttend d th meeting in your house, ere not 30

members?---Yes.

How do you know?---I know ther 's boy next door yo

-660- R. 'iASODI.

to m ho ttended, and there e echoolboy ho e pen­

ding a holi y th r who tt nd d. He w not member.

What had h come th re for?---Ju t to he r.

And no you kno I Qe a member because I ttend d?

---You procl 1m d that you h d been long organised.

You kno th tIe member of th t organisation

t th t time?---Y s, at that me ting, you procl 1med that

you had been long member, nd by attending thi meeting

you ••• and you re still tt nding that meeting.

"I m long organised". I put it to you th t thoeelO

orde can be int rpr t d in many yeJ What do you say?--­

That i ho I t rpreted it.

And you know then that the tnt pret tion is wrong.

I put it to you th t t the meting, I did not come to t­

t nd th meting. I had come for som thin le in connec­

tion with your work! And I tt nd d t t meeting not s

memberJ---You came to the meeting to tt d the meeting,

oth rwiee you ouldn't have re d that pref ce, i you had

come for something else.

Now do s re ding the pr f ce make me member?---20

That actually brings you s one of those ho ere t the

meeting.

Suppatng you h d given th t thing to on of those

people you eay were not member , and they }lIid re d it,

ould that h ve made him m mb r?---Not ctually.

No hy do you e y b c use I read that pref ce, I

s member? --It would have shown that you c me pecific-

lly for the meeting. To gree to th reading of that book.

If you c me for om thing else, you ould have perhaps

obj cted. bec use you wouldn't be kno ing then what w e 030

tu 11y t king pl 0 •

You eay I would have obj cted to r ding the pre-

f

-661- R. IIASODI.

f c ?---Yes.

I eked you few seconds go ••• ?---+f you did not

kIlo w e going on.

During my crose-que tioning you, I said do you think

I kne the purpo of th t meting, and you eaid I did not

kno. No you s y if I did not know the purpo e of th t

meting, I ould not h ve read that prefacel---You might

not have known th purpose of the meeting, but you came

pecific 11y for the meeting.

Do you think it'e pos ibl for an int lligent 10

person to go to m ting and not kno ing it' purpose?---

Y e, you a ked that question bec use you ted to be cl -

rified, and you ere an ered, d then it e s id by you

th t you had long Ire dy been organised.

Is it not strange that so m y state itn ee e ve

come here, d theY've decl red that th y'v att nded so

many meeting , and for your infonnation, not one of them

has mentioned th t theY've ttended a m ting her I e

present? On the oth r d, you are coming here, you

declar th t you tt nded ery fe 1 meetl.llge, d you re 20

the pereon ho y8 of thoe f meetings, I ttended:--­

You didn't tt nd th meeting th t thoe who gave evi en

bout, e id th t they didn't see you t th meetinge, but

the me tinge th t I ttended, you er t the meetings.

Do you think I liked you so much, th t I made

point of ttending tho e meetings you attended?---Not spe­

cifically liking m. You came to the meetin , and I had leo

come to the me ,ing. That'e where we met.

Don't you think it's very strange, th t I ttend

only those meetin hich you ttended, and not those 30

meetings hich many of the people?---You might have ttended

others that I don't kno of.

•

-oo~- • •

I put it to you th t many stat witnee ee h ve

come and they have not aid I att nded ingle of tho e

m etingeJ And I suppo m y more r coming, nd th y

re not going to say thatJ---Those th tIm nt10ned you

ere th ret

ACCUSED NO 5: No further questions.

CROSS- CCUSED NO.6:

r. R rna odi, at the meeting here Accused No. 4

lIege that ~ v you a report as sp king, here you

from Vl kfontein, when 10

ae this me ting held?---At my place.

Not here, but hen?---Towarde the end of February.

It a the nd of F bruary?---Ye •

In hat capacity ae I th re?---As a cell leader.

Is it th me thing a an Executive?-- -They attended

the Executive meeting •

Is it hat is known to verybody, or ie that j~t

h t you h ve decided to t 11 the Court?---I think that is

h t i known to 11 of tho e who re m mbere. H ve you ev r e n me in any Executi v meting b

fore?---No, I eaw you t this one •

Have you seen other cell leader t this alleged

meeting?--Y e.

hy didn't I attend theee oth r m etings, or p r­

haps you don ' t know?---You might have. You might have

been held by other things.

It is strange for me to decide to go and ttend

meeting where you were there, meeting at your house t nd

all along a a cell Ie der, as you a y it e my duty for

m to s e that I'm preeent at those meetings but I never

20

did 0, but I only did eo when you re preeent and t 30

your home?---I did not attend all the Executive m etinge,

just the one th t I ttended, you er pr ent. I don ' t kno

~ f ~

~ whether you were pr nt at the other me ting • So I don't

see any strangeness bout it.

Do you know when I was elected cell leader?--

No, that ouldn • t kIlo •

At the end of February?---No, I wouldn't e yeo,

b ca early in J uary sometime I wa told that you ere

a cell leader.

Does it happen in an organisation that people usu­

ally ttend me tinge of Executivee Committee?---As far as

I kno , only Executive members and cell lead r attend d 10

the me tinge. I h v n't e n ny loc I people there.

So it eo ppened that day th t you B w me?---Yes,

ae a cell lead r.

I put it to you that you n ver B w m at your hou el

---You were there. You ere actually helping Accused No. 4

to read that report.

I don't even kno where is your homeS---You kIlo it

very ell.

And •••• ?---you came th re in the night to come d

call me. 20

And secondly you have just decided to tell the

Court that you w m at that meeting, and I put it to you

th t you nev r saw me t that meetingl---I

ACCUSED NO.6: No further questions.

ACCUSED NO. 7: No question •

CROSS-EXAMIN TION BY ACCUSED NO. 8:

Mr. R m Bodi, you Baid that you

at No. lis pI ce?---Yee.

Vf you.

me at a meeting

h twas th purpose of thi meeting?---The purpo eS

of that meeting, was especially to elect a ch irman, ecre-30 1.1

try, and a tre sur r. Then you c me there to re ueet that u

t 0 of the Executiv members ehould visit your cell.

Did I take p t in th delib rations of this mee­

ting?---No, you only aeked tor that.

But yo~ e y th t cell le d r d Executive m mbere

are one thing?---That ae ju t h n the 1 ction took pla

and ther a nothing ctually di cussed there, becau cell 1 ader took no p rt in th I ctions. You only came

to requ t th t two of the Executivee should come to you.

Are you sure that you

quite sure.

me t this m eting?---Itm

Mr. masodi, I ould lik to put it to you that I 10

nev r att nded such meeting, d I don't remember ever

attending such a meeting?---You came ther with one Uro

Le te (?).

ACCUSED NO.8: No further queetions.

ACCUSED NOS . 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15: No questions.

CROSS- INATION BY ACCUSED NO. 16:

r. Ramaeodi, hen you came to my hom ae alleged,

you tood near the sitting room window?---Yee.

er the curtaine closed or op n?---Th indo and

the curtaine ere op n. 20

No ould you Y th t ther " a meeting?---There

ere p op1e in the house, I don't know h ther there ae

meeting.

Did you get into the houae, or did you just stand

outside?---I stood for while outside d then got in, and

then you told those people who were till in the house that

they hould go out.

Now how far weI from you?---You were just in the

room not far from me.

Did I speak loudly?---No. 30

Th n ho you able to h th t I w e telling

the people to get out hen you ar out of there?---I ae

· ~~ Ire dy in hen you told them.

No on the night you allege No. 1 came to your home,

did you h v any intention of leaving your house?---No.

So then h r s your sick brother?--- hen Accu ed

No. I c me to my house f was not the day when I said that

my brother was sick. It w the day when we attended a

meeting at your pI ce, at No. 16'e place.

Did you not s y that No . I c lIed you at your home?

---Ye •

Yes, that's why I ask did you not have any inten-IO

tion of leaving your house?---No, I didn't then have an in-

t ntion to leave.

Where ae your sick brother?---He e at his home.

So you ve th reason that bec u e your brother i

ick, you on't be able to attend such me ting?---It

asn't th t meeting. It as the meeting th t as held on

dneed y after the I ctions.

Oh, you ay it as not on thi p rticul day that

No.1 came and told you to go to a me ting?---No, it as not.

You mean your brother was sick on a later day? -- 20

The day when the Accused came to my place was on a Saturday,

and e ent to his pI ce and e found Accused No.4, and

you No. 16, at his place.

And then in your videnc what did you eay m d you

Ie ve the meeting t No. 16 ' s place, ae you allege?---I h d

a lot of work at home, and I said that 11m leaving.

ae it impossible to tell No. 1 hen he came to

your house that "look here, I won't be abl to have euch

meeting", then tak the trouble of leaving your home?---

No.

Then taking the trouble of leaving your home and

alking all the dist ce to my home and then only to tell

30

. ~ I r No. 1 t my home, th t you have a lot of work? --There as

nothing th t ctu 11y took pI c at your home, bec u e the

man that we had gon th re tor, didn't turn up. e didn't

h ve anything to discu s, eo it was just a waste of time.

I put it to you that you never c e to your placeJ--­

I as th re.

And th t I never c me to your placeJ Yet in evidence

you said that I at the meeting at your placeZ---Yes, you

ere.

As far a I can think, I c nit remember ••• ?---The 10

day they made the r port you er ther.

I cannot r memb r of meeting being held t your

pI ce and of any Executive M ting h Id t my place:--I

kno of it, and you were also there.

ACCUSED NO. 16: No further question.

lINATION .BY MR. HARWOOD:

During the whole of these proce dings, have you

ver been employed B

When were you

1963?--Y •

polic trapper?---No.

reeted?---The 21st of arch.

20

In actual f ct, you are still under re t?---Yes.

No you've s en this witness Kenn th Molatedi, the

youngster who has been mong t the witnesses?---Yes, I saw

him.

Can you remember whether Kenneth as ever at any

of th se meetings th t you have described, in connection

ith Accused No. 1 to 6 and l6?---No.

You can't r member having seen him there?---I c 't

rememb r.

No these meetings that you ent to, d these 30

seven accu ed were pre ent at various times, also No.8,

I think, w re there many people at these meeting , or ere

.l; 1 there only a f e ?---The fret thre me ting th re ere

many people.

What do you c 11 by many peopl ?---Sometimes ther

were more than ~ifte n and 20.

By and larg , th Y were s 11 numbere?---Yee, par­

ticul rly emall. Comparatively small.

And hat number do yo coneider sm 11 numb re at

theee meetings?---Five or six.

Ho ~ r is No. 16'e house from the house of No.1

Accu ed?---It's some d1 t nce.

I've no doubt, but c

10

you tell me ho far?---About

a mile and som odd y rde.

Something like th t - about a mil ?---Yee.

Now you told Accuse No. 3 that you joined the

P.A.C. d th n you id you later changed your ideae -

you indicated that th P.A.C. ould not b n fit you, and

you eaid in er to furth r questions that it all de-

pende on ho you fight, to Accus d No.3. Do you remember?

---Yee.

No ct lly changed your mind? First of 20

all you belong d to the P.A.C., obvio~ly becauee you thought

it a going to be of benef t, then you decided it was not

going to be of ben fit hat changed your mind?--- hat c­

tually changed my mind ie when th y left th con titutional

way of fighting for freedom. They seemed to be taking an

aggreeeive ••• viol nt thinge were taking place.

So I put it correctly hen I say that as long ae

this fight was a coneti tutional fight, you were in favour

of it, but hen once it involved violence, you ere no

longer in favour of it?---Yee. 30

Now hen did you become a are of the fact that

viol nc a going to be the watch ord for th future?---

-668- R. RAMASODI.

I becam a~ re of the org nis tion in 1963, and thi cry

th t f e dom ae coming in 1963, and I could se th re

w s nothing they could do to get freedom in uch a short

tim , except by using viol nce.

And in ddition to that, s there ny diec~sion

in connection ith violenc which you he rd, or hich any

of the ccused told you about?---It wae ctu lly hen they

re d the report at my plac and they t 1ked about weapone

th t I realised th r ae violence to be used.

And fter that you f It that you hould no longer 10

associate ith it?---Ye •

No who were these weapons to be directed against?

Was that disc sed?---Against the hites.

And did you underst d that it e going to involve

killing and harming?---Yes.

MR. HARWOOD: No furth r queetion •

AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS FOR 15 lNUTES.

ON RESUMING:

__________ S_HA __ O, decl re und roth

EXAMINATION BY MR. liAR OOD: 20

No you re

South African Police

bantu sergeant in the C.I.D. of th

ttached to the Security Police?- -Yee.

d you are actually as ociated with the Security

Police in Pr toria and in Atteridgeville?---Th tis right.

Before you ere with the Security Police in Atte­

ridgeville, you wer also a oci ted with thoee police in

M r bbastad?---That is right.

You liv in No. 6 osalalo Street, Atteridgevill ? __ _

Ye •

And you ere living there in arch of 1963? 30 That I right.

•

-669- R. RAMASODI.

Are you mo III a Harry?---Yes.

And actuallyl I bell v th t you used to be a well­

known centre-half on the soccer fleld?---Th~ is right.

Al 0 under the n me of Harry?---That is right.

And ithout being unduly modest. you were ell­

kno as a soccer player?---Th t's right.

Now you work in collaboration v ry frequently with

Bantu Detective-Serg t Kumalo?---That I right.

And it is your custom hen you r on duDy in a

hite Volkswagen?---That s right.

Now i that a Government C r or is it yours or

Kum lo's?---Th tie th Government's car.

No do you r member the period the 18th to the

22nd of March 1963?---Yee.

10

Th t w e just before the big eriea of arre ts ere

m d in connection with the Pan Africanist Congr s ?--Ye:9,

I remember.

---Ye •

Just befor number of these ccused ere arrested?

o No during tho e five days, from the 18th to the 22nd

~ M ch, er you frequently on duty ith Kumalo in Atteridge-

ville?---Yee.

Using your Yolks agen Motorc ?---Yee.

Do you remember one night when while on duty, you

h d your motorc r ne r your house, you and Kumalo were sit­

iing in it and aleo two bantu women ?--Ye •

No casting your memory b ck to that night, when

you ere in the car ith Kumalo and the two Bantu women -

do you recollect seeing ny person or anything or anything 30

peculiar ome h re near your hou e?---All I remember is that

e e a car parked alongside the street.

You don't remember seeing any people or anything like

•

-670- R. SODI.

th t in the vic' .:ty of your house?--- o.

Do you recoll ct by any chance, h ving een ny

p rson appro ching or some her near th car in which you

ere ith Kum 10 and th native omen?--- ell my treet

ie a big etre t her p ople do paee.

You just don't know?---Yee.

Someon might h v come there d you don't kno ?---

It' e poe ible.

No do you kno

I kIlo him.

man by the name of Rolty?---Yee,

Is he act lly in the Police?---No.

Do you know where h ork ?---I'm not ure.

o tell me you heard the vid nce hich hebe n

given by cert in itneesee in thie Court, bec u e actu lly

you ' ve been sitting s a guard here in th Court, have you

not?---Yee.

You've he d the evidenc in connection ith the

1x of the 12 disciple being requir d to go out one ni ht

d to kill you?---Yee.

10

E fore you heard that evidence, did you kno

thing bout th t?---No, I didn't.

y- 20

It mu t have come a a bit of a ehook?---Yee.

MR. HAR OOD: No further question •

CROSS- INAT ON BY ACCUSED NO. I:

H ry Mho, you eaid that you were preeent in thiw

Court hen evidenc was being led bout the 6 disciplee.

I that correct?---Yes.

And you must h ve heard that I was one of the 6

d ciple ?---Ye •

And you know very ell that the supposed dutiee of 30

th e dieciples w s to get rid of you?---Th t' right,

No can you t 11 the Court ho long did you kno me.

-671- H. MASHAO.

That is did you know me for quite a long time, or you ar

just starting to see a person like myself?---I would 8 y I

kno you from 1945 or so.

That i in Atteridgeville?---Th t's right.

Did e at any time have a equabble, or any ••• or as

there any re son for us to fight, or to be croee with each

other?--- ell, not that I know of.

No seeing t t you heard bout these things here,

you perhaps must h v thought 80m thing about it, fter

you have he d the vidence about this alleged attempt on 10

your life, did you p rh ps think anything b d about me?---

ell, •••

inly b c use an attempt

That' Bright.

s m de on your life?---

ted, that s Now t 11 m , ever since I ae rr

on the 22nd of M ch, 1963, did you ever m t me nd perh pe

notice that I as ulking at you, or p rhap you, your el ,

sulked t me?---No.

You don't r m mber my displaying

you?---I don't.

fUllllY face to

20

You sa m on sever 1 occae10ns after I as rre t d?

---That's right.

Where?--- 11 I ea you at Era mi and lew you se­

veral time here in Court.

Every time e meet, e greet e ch other. Is that

right?---Th t's right.

Do you rem mber the time h n you sa me t the

C ntral Police st tion?---Yee.

Do you e e m only on one occ ion there, or on

more occa ione?---V 11, I don't remember, but I think I 30

must h ve s en you more than t ice.

ore tb t ice?---Th t' right.

H. MASHAO.

Ev n th n I did not ho

I did not notice it.

funny f c to you?---No,

ACCUSED NO. I: No further qu ~tion5.

ACCUSED NOS. 2 TO 16: No qu tiona.

-------------_ ... PETRUS ALBERTUS FERREIRA, verklaar onder e d

NATION BY

S 1 d1t geredelik wee~ om u getuienie in Enge1~

a te 1 Mnr. Ferreira?---Dit sal ni eaak maak nie.

No you be n directly in charge 0 the inves-

tig tion in this particular caee, in reep ct of the cti-10

vitiee in Atteridgeville?---That 1 so.

And you are a detective-serge t in the South African

Police et tioned in Pretoria?---That is so.

In this connection you h ve b en orking reepon~ible

to rrant officer Strumpher?---Yes and M jor van Niek rk.

And leo r sponsibl ultimately to ajor van Nie­

kerk of the C.I.D.?---Th t i so.

Now in the course of your investig tiona, on the 6th

of April 1963, did you visit the Ban eng School and ex mine

caee in cl 8sroom hich w ~ indic ted to you ae being 20

th t of Accused No. l?---That is BO, I did.

It ae indic ted to you e such by the Prineip 1 of

the school ho g ve evidence e rlier in this c se?---That is

~ 0,

BY THE COURT TO ~ITNESS: I think it

not?---A cupboard fi y Lord.

cupboard,

INATION BY MR. EAR OOD (CONTINUED):

s this locked?---It locked.

e it

And did the prineip 1 ~upply you ith key?---Ye~,

he ctually unlock d it. and left the key in the cupbo rd. 30

fhen you examined the cupboard?---That is o.

- 73- P.A. FERREIRA.

And in the cupboard, fir~t of all, did you find

book Exhibit l?---Th t is so.

hich is now s~ow.n to the Court, which has in ~he

back picture of two person~, Seb ••• ?---And Leballo.

Th t i so.

No in ddition to th t, did you also find cert in

other things?---That is eo.

What ere the other things t t you found, please?--­

Al 0 booklet th P African1st Con ese, Volume No.6.

It's copy de~cribing the ctivitie~ of the Pan Africanist 10

Congress.

(Copy of the book shown to • Harwood). Tell me

mongst those documents hich you have ther , the thing hich

y>u found. Among oth r no . t W' s the n xt one you

found?---These Exhibits were actually found at No. lis hou

on the night of his

ell, the I beg your pardon. There' some mi under­

standing. Did you not find anything else, apart from th t

book in the cupboard?---Apart from the book nd then that •••

And then this thing. Allright. Now then, on the 20

8th of pril 1963, did you go ith o. 4 ACCUBed to No. 48

Ram_gop Street, At eridgeville?---That is so. I actu lly

found Accused No. 4 on the morning of the 8th in our office~

at Pretori Central, here he as arrested earlier that mor­

ning by other detectives. I intDoUduced eelf to the

Accused, I informed him of the ch rge g inst him, larned

him ccording to th Judges' rule~, that he doe~n't need to

say anything, but w tever he might ~ay would be taken down

in writing and us d evidenc gain t him. I then a~ked

the accu ed to take me to his residential addre~e. The 30

accused then took me to 46 Ramagopa Stre t, and from there

he took me to the •••• 1

•

-674- P.A. FERREIRA.

46 R magop Stree~ or 48?---46.

And was this his place of residence?---He did not

tay at th t particul r place any more, h h d just left

week or so b fore. According to ACCUB d No.4, he s

st ying then at the single quarter of Atteridgeville. The

accused's andmother i ctually Btay~g t 46 R magopa

Str et.

No on the 16th of April 1963, did you rreet Accus d

No. 5 at the Hoffmey r School, Att ridgev111, here he is

teacher?---Th t is so. 10

And did you anr him in terms of th Judges' rules?

---I introduced myself to th ccused, informed him of the

charg against him and •••

hat did he y in reply to h t you eaid?---I then

w ned the accused My Lord. The conver tion s in Afrik ans.

The ccused used ords to th effect "dit 1 'n b i ern t1ge

ding hierdie, k h t nike d amree te do n nie".

And did you then accomp ny him to cert in clase­

room?---1 did.

Wher you xamined a cupboard in th presence of 20

Accused No. 5?---The ccused identified the cupboard, took

the key out of his pocket and unlock d th cupbo rd. I

examined the cupboard and I found a book, hich I no hand

in as exhibit.

hibit 14, Bl ck and White, South African history

handed in. Did the ccused No. 5 have anything to e y about

this book?---Accus d No. 5 told me that he took this book

from on of the children in the class. He saw a child

reading the book d he took it from the child . He couldn't

give m the name of the child. H e id h c 't remem- 30

ber it any more.

And s th t all that you found in thi cupbo rd, of

•

-675- P. A. FERREIRA.

any 1mportanc in this m tter?---Th t is so.

(Exhibit 14 handed to Mr. H rwood). No thie Exhi­

bit 14, is not in its If, anything to do with the Ne Age,

i it?---Ye, it's pamphlet of the Ne Age.

It'e pmphlet of the New Age?---Yes.

No ie this 11 of cons quence to u here, t t

tr spired b t een you and No. 5 Accused?---That i o.

No on the 19th of April 1963, did you have a dis­

cussion with Accus d No. 4?---1 did.

And before you h d any discu sion ith No.4, did 10

you rn him to your position d to h .---1 did.

And th n did you hav a c rt in disc eion ith him?

And hat transpired?---Ae r suIt of the discu sion, Accused

No. 4 m de a report, I then ccomp ined by Accused No.4,

Detective-Serge nt Geyer, Detective-Serge nt Verm ulen

and Detective van d r erwe, proceed d to the Er smi Police

Station, here I g in spoke to Accus d No.1.

Whow t Qsmi, ae he?--- ho "e t that time

detain d t Erasmi •

So you h d No. 4 ith you, and you poke to No. 1 20

in No. 4'e pree c ?---I did. No.1 nd No.4 then had

discus ion. No. 1 th n made report to me. Ae re ult of

that report, I 'phoned the M r bbaet d olic Station and

other native m 1 by the name of Oupa Mb t e leo

brought to Erasmi. I expl in d and introduced my elf to

iheee ccused ••• to thi m , I explain d to him the po ition,

and Acc u ed No.1, No. 4 and this man Oup M t , then had

a conv rs tion. Th y th n made report, d as a re ult

of thi report,

n tiv male Oupa

Atteridgevill •

ccomp ied th t 0 ccused d this

ta to the Skurweberg at the back of

e 1 ft the care in th DD de and then

proceeded in the direction pointed by AccUB d No. 1 t o

30

-676- P.A. FERREI •

c rta1n pot in th mountains, to here ccused No. 1 pointed

out spot to • On xamining this pl ce, we found one of

the bombs.

What type

A bomb lik

it?---Exhibit No.4 My Lord.

;;;;0;.; ....... __ _ ---Th t is so.

Just one?---Just on •

Now befor w

here th mortar and

ent force?---Th t is

go any further, as this the range

rtillery firing is done by the perman-

so.

Or w s don ?---No, th re is still a firing r ge 10

Jlh r , they er ctual1y in action on the day hen e went

re.

I hope on a pre-determin d r

and t 11 me hen you found this on

g not where you ere,

pot point d out to you

by No.1, was ther only one bomb ther , or wer there a

numb r?---There s only one bomb.

And it as it concealed, or wa it lying open?---It

s lying amongst some e 11 bushee, about thie high.

(Iildicatee about 18").

Now hat happened after that Mr. Ferreira?---Accu- 20

sed No. 1 then made report to me. Accused No. 1 and

D tective-S rgeant Geyser s left at the spot. Accused No.

4 d this man Oup' Mbata th n had a discussion amongst th m.

Accused No. 4 then accomp i d by thie other man, myee1f nd

D t ctive-Serg nt Vermeul n, proceeded ~ another direction

point d out by Accused No.1. Whil t walking in thie direc­

tion Accused No. 4 and thi other man, h d other conve -

B tion. They changed the direction. A littl further on,

gain conv rsation b tween the two of them, the direction

8 gain c ged, d eventually we arrived at a epot 30

pointed out by ceus d No. 4 and thi other m Oup bat,

and on x mining the spot , we found there e hole ot ab9ut

~677- P.A. FER IRA.

24" deep in the ground and just next to the hole e found

a lot of bombs, similQr to the four exhibit no before

Court.

Varioue types of bombs?---VarioUB types of bombs.

They ere cover d by grass. You could Bee th t they were

pI ced ther together and that the gra s

of the bombs to cover them.

s put on top

---Y e.

You could that theee bombs had been concealed?

10 No bout how many bombs ere there, there? Did you

count them, do you r m mber Mr. Ferreira?---Not at that

t gee I was awar of how dangerous these bombs re, d

1 ter on, the sam d y Warrant Officer PeIser, ho already

gave evidence.

Well, e h ve com to that th n?---Yes.

But in any v t, you found a 1 ge number of bombs

tbere?--That'e right, there were a large numbe~ of bombs.

Now then, did you go to nother pI ce?---Accused No.

4 d the man Oup Mb ta, made a further report and they

took to 20

spot bout 300 to 400 yards way from this spot,

here e also found lot of bombs.

And were these bombs also ost nSibly concealed, or

ere they lying open?---Th y were conce led, by grass and

~ y were all tog there From there we ent to anoth r pot,

ltd say about also 400 yards aw y from this place No.3,

on top of the mount 'n, and we sat on a tone there waiting

for W rrant Officer PeIser to come, and tHe.four Accus d

then pointed out four bombs to me.

~ere they also concealed?---No, thre of them were

till in the ground, their fins sticking out and the other 30

one w s just lying loose.

So these, ostenebily, ere not bombs h1ch No. 4 took

you to. H pointed them out while you wer aiting?---He

-6$8- P.A. FE IRA.

pointed th m out to us hil e were t th t epot.

Now then did you it ther for arrant Offic r P 1-

ser, ho g ve vidence?---That'~ right. I actually eked

No. 4 Accused to t k ue to the highe~t top of the mount in

~o that can e the road~, if theee persone arrive in

the road that th y can see U:5, d h took us to that spot.

No th se pointe, w re they freely pointed out to

you by Accused Nos. 1 and 4?---Thatt~ right.

W s th r any durees or ass ult perp trated on th m

at all to force them to do so?---No y Lord, nothing hat-lO

so ver.

You will rem b r that it ae 11 c seary for you to

give evidence e rli r in this matter, and it as suggested

that on the 19th of pril on that particul r day, there had

been certain coercion. There wa no co rcion t all in

this m tter?---No.

Now did you Iso have a police photogr pher there t

the time?---Th t is o.

And did h , in the pr eence of yourself and rr nt

Officer Pelser, take these three photo phs, which h v e

been before the Court, Exhibit 8, 9 and 10?---That is so.

THE COURT TO ITNESS: Are the~e th photogr phe?---That

is so.

INATION BY MR. HARWOOD (CONTINUED):

Those photogr phs were taken at three of the four

points which ere shown to you by Accused Nos. 1 and 4?--­

That is so. Exhibit No. 10 wae the fir t point here one

bomb w e found, point d out by Accused No.1. Exhibit No.9,

ae th s cond epot w were taken to by Accused No.4, d

Exhibit No~is the third spot. 30

Theee pl ces were all visited by arrant Officer Pe1-

ser?---They w re 11 visited by him.

H h d lre dy told us what he felt bout th condi­

tion of the~e bomb , and h h s indic ted to us th t he c me

-679- P.A. FERREIRA.

back the foll0 ing not that d y, om tim 1 t r, and des­

troyed these bombs?---That is so.

You be out hat he says wh n he s ys that those

Exhibits 4, 5, 6 & 7, e f ir specimens of the types of bombs

hich you found in these various pl ces?---Yes.

Now on the 22nd of April 1963, did you hay occasiin

to speak to Accus d No. l?---Yes.

And •••

BY THE COURT TO ITNESS: That is the 22nd of •• ?---April,

that is the day I took Accused No. 1 to the agistrate. 10

EXAMINATION BY MR. HARWOOD (CONTINUED):

That's right, y s. You took ccused No. 1 to

Magistrate. Why?---B c use the ccused told us that h ant d

to ke Q stat m nt b for the .agistr t •

So you took him to Mr. gistr te B ard on that

d y, ho g ve vidence here?---Yes, I alr dy g ve evid ce

on that My Lord.

And you receiv d from Mr. Barn rd, fter the accused

No.1 had m de it, th statement Exhibit 2, the confession

1hich is before the Court?---Th t is so. (Discussion be- 20

tween Court, Mr. Harwood and Mr. Ferreir s to here ori-

g 1 copy of stat ment is.)

In any event then, the original st tement m de by

ccused No. 1 as ac ual1y handed to you by agistrate r­

nard, nd you subsequ ntly s it handed in by Magistrate

in this Court as an Exhibit?---Ye •

No on the 30th of April 1963, did you speak to Ac­

cus d No. 15 nd Accused No. 6?---I did.

No what s this, as th result of?---As the result

of this cony rsation, I as accompani d by Accus d No. 15 30

to tt ridgeville.

BY THE COURT TO ITNESS: No. 15 only?---Only by No. 15.

-680- P.. E IRA.

I ATION BY

---He took m to an addIess ~:r R~msk n st e t, I c n't r -

m mb r the llumb r.

7?---87, th t is so, here the ccu ed luwded Exhibit

12, the e before the Court.

Th t m at axe?---The meat ~e, over to me.

Now on the 2nd of Ma.y 1963 t did you hav a discussion

with Ac sed o. 6?---On wh t d y? . No. 6?---Yes.

Dikgang?--Dikgang, y s. 10

Now did you discuss ith him c rtain documentsZ---I

did.

No'{ have you thos documents before you at the moment?

---I've got the doc ents b fore me.

Now first of 11, did you discus with him c rt in

diary?---Yes.

Exhibit 15 h ded in. Did Accused No. 6 h v anything

to say about this diary?--- ccused No. 6 dmitted this diary

to be his personal p.Lopel'ty found on him on th 22nd of March 20

963, t the night of his rrest. He told me th t this diary

as kept by him on instructions of th t cher, th t 11 chi1-

dren in Form lIlB t the .Ioffmey r School d to keep di ry

note d 1ly in t is of h.t h h s r d in ne e-

papers or nything of ·mport nce to th m, d th t thie book

s inspected Iso by the t cher nd sign d by the te eh rs.

Now " s Aceus d No. 5 on of th se t ch re, or don't

you kIlo ?---No, I don't know hether he ••••

No'{ have you made typ r1tten copy of cert in of th

extr ets of th t di ry?---Th t is so.

And ill you Iso put th t in ·th th di ry B 30

Exhibit No. 16? (Hand din). D cid d to re d thie, not in-

to record, but afterw rde.

-681- P.A. FERREIRA.

INATI0!LBY_~WOOD (CONT NUED):

Mr. H ~ood sks itness to r ad Exhibit 16.---litn

re ds out Exhibit 16 to Court.

No those dates on this b~ibit 16 Mr. Ferreir , are

.-:.imply the dates which appear in the di y, g in t these

comments?---~h t is o.

No c . you tell me who is "E.D.II under 2:9-1-63?---

B.D, is No, 6 Aceused, Eric Dikg g L his namee d hie

Sl).rname Moseneke.

N Did you find any othe documents in possession 10

of Accused No. 6?---A list of n mes ~hich I handing a

Exhibit ••••

17 that ill be. A list of names of wh t?---Of people.

Simply list of n mes 0 ople?---Yes, ell there

is no indication. They are 11 members or all persons arres­

ted by us throughout our invesbigations, in connection with

t he Pan Uricanist Congress,

Th tis Exhibit 17. Was th t found on Accused o. 6?--­

That wae found on the night of his arrest on Accused No, 6.

Now anything else Mr. Ferreir , on Accused No. 6?---20

No. I lao spoke to Accused No. 1 on the s me d y.

Yes?---In c nnection with lli:hi its ••• s Exhibit No

18

Nor: tell me first of ell, -here were the e Exhi bi t ,

hich you re now spe king of, found?---It v s Iso found in

the house of Accused o. 1 on the nigh of his rreet on the

22nd March 1963, ccording to Accused ~o. 1,

And hat are these various Exhibits please?---A lette

Exhibit 18. (itness reads out exhibit 18).

Can you tell me if there is any d te on th t docu- 30

ment?---24-2-1963, (Continue reading letter),

No~ did Accused No.1 have anything to say bout th t

-682- P.!i.. FERREIRA.

document?---Accused No . 1 dmitted ving written that le~ter

d it W B to be handed to this O'Ul JotW .. B by another person,

1ho had to c 11 at his hOUDe .

No other documents did y u find?--- Iso copy

of Ne'l Age d ted Thursd ;{ December 20 1961, Ib hibi t 1;0. 19.

2D-12-1961?---21 12-1961,

And wh t did Accused No . 1 h ve to s y bout th -&?--­

Accused No, 1 8 id it w s found in his bookcase ~mongst his

books.

He did not have any p rticu 10

comment bout this?---No.

No there is ... tiele in this Ne, g , ib there not,

which hQS been marked in ref?---Yee.

Vh t is the he d note of t t ·ticle?---Bomb attacks

open new b se in South Afric. Secret organis' .tion declares

Th tIs the he ding?---That is 80,

Put that ihto the Court p1e· see I~ow wh:&t other do-

ouments did yo find Mr. Ferreir , in ~ o. 1'S po session?--­

It s not found by myself. I only iscus ed it :vith No.1. 20

Have you got nnother?---Ex ibit No . 20 booklat oalled

"Li beration". (Description). Acoused c,mi tted to it being

found amongst . s book'" in the bockshelf in his hc,use.

Just let me h ve that one moment pIe se? (Hand d to

Mr. Har 0 ad ) • Ho ~ in thi s bo okla t , the .. e are "mong other

things, an rtiole c 11 d "S nahine and Rhado". There's an

rticle oalled "The ••• (?) Fire ', nd ther 's an rtiel call d

the "Transkei Tragedy", in this ¥hibit 20?--Yce.

No then, w s there also m p?--Also map.

Exhibit 21?---Ex:hibiL£!, r. N w Age III p of Africa.

Wh t are the oir~umst .ces of thf;. finding 0 that ma:p , 30

or the aooused ssooiating himself with it?---The oeus d d-

mitt d th t this m p w s found Iso in his bookc on th

-683- P. A. ERREIHA.

night of his arrest.

hat is Accused No. l?---Accused No.1.

Th t "'ill be ~xhibtt 21. Yo those t Iv dQcum~nto 20

and 21 .re lao products of t~ts M ~zine, the e Age are

they not?---Th t is so.

Now did the ccused No. 6 have rbh~g to say bout

th t little xe ~hibit 12?---Accu-ed No. 6 exp] ined on the

night th t the xe belonrred to b ntu P ulus ~, bt:~be, and

that b took it from this ~ n one night.

D '.d 1e have ~:mything to S' 'j' about this lis't, star- 10

t ing off with the n'1.me Ig tiu KW!.'lkY/,~ t' &lot 01ms to be

Exhibit 17?--Yee.

25 c nte ••• Kenn th 101atedi here ppe rs for 25 cents

and some oth~rs?-Yes, h xpl .... ·ned th t tho.e Ire the n mes

of the persons belonging to 1 is cell, the C ,11tl" 1 C 11 in

Att ridgevj,lle and 25 c ,nt indi c te , the persons alre dy

having paid. their sl"..cscript' on:!!!.

Hj s cell e of the what?---The rnemb ... r of t' .. 1:;:: P~rl

A~ric.nist Con 'e a. t th school.

Did he t 11 you wh t the 25c alongsid certain namee20

repree nted?---Yes, th t indic t s the persona Ire dy b ving

paid tb ir 25 cents, which they h d to pay when tley jo' led

me Pan Af ic nis+' Congress.

MR. HA WOOD: No f ther questtons.

!££!:!SED.Ji~5 TO OURT: 1.1 y I s:o.y something? r ish to t ke

strong xc ption to t e insinu tion m:.dc by' COUl D 1 fo the

Prosecution h n he s id th t when th di s re d ther ,

he suggested that I miGht b~ on of the peoIll, r a:poneible

for the contents of the di ry?-- Yes, vell th re 8 an

answer th~t 1 did. t kno •••• the itne5 d~d not know, 30

and therefore, th Court h s ignored it Itogether.

CROSS-EUMINAT ON BY ACCUSED NO. I:

P • .A. Ii ERRElRA.

(Exh1b1t 18, 19, 20 and 21 hand a to Accu d No.1).

BY THE COURT TO ACCUSED NO. I: About th t book the Pros cutor

h indic t d th t e far a th st t 1 conc rn d, th

only r 1 v c i th pictur t the b ck.---Thankyou My Lord

th m. (Hand 11 ~he bov xh1bits b ck to Court.).

CROSS- USED NO. I:

Se~g ant £ rr ir you ered q tion ju t no hich

re connected ith your vi it th t you had to my school. I

that corr ct?---Th~t is corr ct.

Now you r m mb r my princip 1, Mr. Kak e h r 10

to come d sror qu tion in thi r gard?---Y • On thing I 0 not und r t d 1 thi - I ould l1ke

to know if vh n t king th t not boo rom th cupbo rd, you

looked into it? Di you 100 into th t book?---I d::Ld, th t

i hy I -t;ook it.

:B'rom p to pag , or just the cover ?---From p ge to

p ge, till t th 1 t COy r.

Vr'her did you do th t - right th re t chool, or

outsiue th school ~d or in your offic in town here?---

On ~oing through th¥ cU bo ds, lent lurough 11 the 20

books. I o}> n d th m th r d x min d th books t th

cupboard •

You did IJ.Ot shoit' i to IllY princip 1 ?---I sho ed th

book to h principal y Lord, nd 1 told him th t I'm

t king it.

You did not turn ov r thE'. p g in hie re enc ?--­

Only the ront pag s.

Now at th t tim • you sa th t ictur did you? Th

pictur of' L °b 110 and Sebukwe?---Y s.

And "

w s

pictur in th

i -Ii not m:: fllsary (I don't kno I'm jus t 30

king)

ary for you to how the princip th t . book?---No, it was not n c rYe In my opinion

it could hav

Th n

-685- P.A. FERREIRA.

prejudmted the accused 1 ter.

hy did you sho him the book? Why s it

n cess ry for you to show him th t book?---I thought the

book might be needed at echool.

I that your only re eon?---Th t is the r eon, yee.

Do th t book bear my n e?---No.

No I notice something in that book d th t ie th t

pictur it If, I it for the firet time when you c me to

onderboom Poort Polic St tion. You rem mber, you sked

me omething bout it?---Yes; ! did. 10

Now then th t w s the first time I s that pictureJ

---Th t i not h t you told me th day t ond rboom.

ill you t 11 the Court h t I told you?---You told

me th t 1t w s given to you by one of the children o~ your

cl es and you pasted in th back of your book.

I don't remember saying that myself. f that 1 80,

I would 11k to s Y this - that I must not dieown the know-

1 dge of that picture t 11, bec uee of this simple rea on,

if I did, you ould then give me thorough thr ehing

e you did at Erasmial What do you SQy?---I never ass ulted

the ccused my Lord, and he could have giv n any xpla- 21

nation hatever. He could h ve enied 11 knowledge of th1e

picture and he would not have been as aulted.

On other thing i paet there, pp e

freehl I think th book is little old, d hat h e

be n paeted cannot stick ae ten ciously s th tone doee

t the preeent moment. Do B th t not suggeet th t it is

v ry fr eh paete th t hae been used to paste that in?---L

don't krto when it ~ B P ted in y Lord.

Now I put it to you Mr. F rreira, th t th t book 30

••• that the pictur which appe r in th't book hae been

p eted by, not myself, and not any of my echool children,

-686- P.A. FER •

but by on of you police th re, ith n ttempt to incro-

min t me in one y or the other:---My Lord if we anted

to incrimin te the accus d, we ould have pasted much bett r

videnc in th t book th that 'photo.

Then you epok

you c m to Er smia nd

forrect?---That is so.

bout the bomb ff ir, the time

e drov to Sk berg. Is t

hen

t

Now do you rememb r s ing two or thre African boys

t ding n ar or at the gte, which had to be op ned be-

get n ar th mount 1n?---Not only two or thr e, 10 fore w

ther W s hole g of them pI ying Lord. I say th re

bout 40 or 50 of th m, pI ying in the ro d leading to

Atteridgevill •

About 20 to 40?---Yee.

I w s ref rring to tho e who op ned the g te or ue?

---On actu lly open d th g te for us.

Now do you know th t these boys not only pI y on

th t spot, but t timee get up th Skurweberg?---No.

I'm telling you th t, but you described th w y you

had se rched Skruweberg for th bombs. You y some bombs 20

w re hidden, and few others were just lying on the ground

and th oth r B just showing their fine. I that right?--­

T t is so.

~ou1dntt you, before that, you know that these bombs

are very dangerous, not sO?--Yes.

And probably have heard those tories of some in-

cidencee wh r 80m Atric boye were injured and some killed

by these explosions, don't you?---Ye , I know bout that.

No it e 1963, when th search for theee bombe er

ort of inteneifi d by th equence of the findings of th 30

c see Wouldn't you, Mr. Ferreira, think p r on who had

nde voured to remove the e unexploded bomb from the r ch

-687- P. A. FERREIRA.

of th childr n? Do you know that ther wer bombe ex-

ploded, you s the boys playing ther the~elvee footb 11,

you kno th t ••• perh p8 th t you don't know, som children

go up the mountain to fetch wood. Wouldn't you think per­

son who has end voured to save th community's livee, by

removing tho e bombs out of sii t?--- Lord by removi th s

bombs from the mountain here th y were lying, you will

endang r mor lif of other p ople, th tho e who creep

tLrough the ~encee d go to the mount in side.

I f 11 to underst nd ho that will endanger the 10

liv of more p ople, bec us th Y w r th y r j t

sc tt r d round, and they v r coIl ct d and placed in one

nook, a hole, so that these littl childr

very difficult to re ch those bombs?---Th t

will find it

not your

first que tion. The question just befor you sked h ther

moving them, and removing means to t ke them a y from

th ••• 1 suppose you me th ee collecting •••

Wh t I meant was coIl ct1ng them and putting them in

on pI c ?---Then it will be •••

I do not understand?---If you m

d putting them t on pl ce, th ar

b s fer for people going th r , yes.

20 by collecting th m

ound there ill

You would thank m for that. You would thank QIlyon

who removed them in th t f shion?---I won't thank them, b -

cause nobody must go up there. Ther is fence around th ret

But some p opl did, nd th y died bec u e of t t:

---Yes.

Is th t known f ct?---Yes.

So bec us of the irresponsibility of these youngsters

ho lw ys ill get there even hen not allow d to go there,aO

t king into consider ion that, you ill thank me bec

1 lives of thee irresponsible youn tere, wouldn't

you?---Th y can still re ch the bombs here you d hidden

them. You just m de the place safeer but they can still re ch

-688- P. A. FERREIRA.

th bomb her youtv put them.

Do you gr e with m on thi point, th t the pI c

littl ear r for the young olks?---No, bec u there

e till y bombs. As e er lking th t d Y through

th i Ids, e cam across plenty of th ro, th t i except

th four found on top of the mount in. So there re plenty

o f oth re lying 11 ov r th pI c , B

Y s, but th t/beyond th first spot s hown in the

•• , in on of the photogr phs, I ould y th t would be

eBt ~ rde? Or sit not?---No, not rde, it e 10

b tw en point No. 1 and No, 2. On our ay to point No.2.

You kno no th numb r of bombe collected in that

re , don't you? Ho m y?---Eombs destroyed, it I'm not,

think is 6.

BY THE COURT TO hich you s w on the d y of

your inspection?---Except those lying on the road, I ould

s y ••• tho that we found on the four points, d 11 the

bomb lying round, I ould e y about 60 of them h ve b en

d etroy d and B re ult of this visit.

CROSS- INATION BY ACCUSED NO. I (CONTINUED): 20

I B not asking about the bomb you c me acro

you searched for the hidden onee, or the ones put ay, thos

hich th ee boys re lleged to h ve colI sted, You don't

kno th ir numb r?---More or lee 36, 1f I can remember

corr ctly.

36?---Ther

and 1 t one point

e 18 t one point, 17 t one point,

d then four on top, that ~ill be 40.

No you r m mber that when I sked you h tb r some

mor liveB r s v d or not, you aid, you don't think eo,

b c use till mor bomb ere lying on th v ld. But then 30

h r hay 36 bombs collected. Don't ou think 36 chances

of ccident I xplosione have been don y ith?---••••

~t q 36 : Don't you think o.--No, I won't gree with

that, they were still on the ground. Those bomb were

still in the mount in nd they could have been found here

they were hidden way by children as he l1eged, pi ying

round there.

Are you suggesting to the Court that those bomb

were not hidden thereJ---They ere hidd , but not 0 th t

ihey could not be found:

So th t is not hiding bomb is it?---Th t i not

hiding, no ,

The aim of hiding i to put things w y from the

10

vi of y p ser-by. Is that not the im?---Well, p sser-

by just lking past there, he on't see them, but pI ying

round there, seeing some loose gr sa they might remove it

and find the bombs, bee use they ere not buried or put in

hole or ything, th Y were just lying on top of the ground.

So you ay they ere bidden, but not not very ell

hidden, h 11 I a y?---It 11 depends or t purpose they

re hidden, if you don't nt them to be seen by any per on

just w lking pst, they were very ell hidden. If you t20

to save other people from handling thoae bombs nd endanger­

ing their live, then I ould a y they were not ell hidden.

You will notice that on Exhibit 10, I think, that

photogr ph that you showed only one bomb?---Ye ,

And the expl ation that you got v s th t the bomb

ere removed from that are to that pl ce, is that so?---Tbat

is so,

Don't you think th t was

those bombs h1eh ere there to

ttempt no , to e ry all

plafe £urther inaid ? An

ttempt to till help these youngsters, in their irres- 30

I!I in the mount in ?---Le vin them nywhere

in the mountain, the danger will be th s me. hether you

-690- P.A. FERREIRA.

remove them from pint No. 1 to point No.3, or hether

you remove them from point No. 1 to point No.2, they ill

11 be dangerous, they will still be in the mount in, here

~y c still be found.

So leaving them anywhere on the mountain, it w s

till d gerous thing, you eay?---Ye •

So you put more bl me on the defenc force th on

the people ~ho tried to collect them?---I'm not putting the

blame on y person.

lee. ~. Ferreir , you must have s n ornaments 10

made out of bombs ••• bomb shells, h ven't you? Polished,

lustrous?---Yes, I've een t 0 lamp h de , th t's similar to

Exhibit 6.

Ex ctly, I know that too. Where did you ee them?--­

In the house of friend of mine, ho a in the r d

ho w s orking in the defence force, ith the e sort of

bombs.

You loved them, didn't you?---No, I did not.

You didn't wish that you had some yourself'?--No.

Didn't you have a t lk on these ornaments?---No. 20

No they are very precious things, I'm telling you.

~e h ve lot of them in Atteridgeville, I think some in

Lady Selbourne and some as far itbank. Very many, and

I don't kno if' you h ve rough ide of ho much one of them

costal A lotJ So then, if a person tells you that he w s

colI cting those things to keep hem as ornaments, or poli h

them and ell them to those ho ould like to have them as

om menta in their houses, what ould you ay?---I'll tell

him imm di tely to get rid of them. I won't buy one from

person ho picked it up, definitely notl 30

Now you know th t teacher hould be looked upon

e a very responsible person in the community?---That ia so.

Collection Number: AD1901

SOUTH AFRICAN INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS, Security trials Court Records 1958-1978

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