AU 680Interviewee:Interviewer:

Title:

McCarty, Joseph Coffee (Joe)McCarty, William Bonner (Bill), Jr.

An interview with Joseph Coffee (Joe) McCarty, March16, 1963 / interviewed by William Bonner (Bill)McCarty, Jr.

NOTICEThis material may beprotected by copyrightlaw (TItle 17 U. S. Code).

MDAH

//

W. B. McCARTY, JR.'S INTERVIEW WITH JOE McCARTY - MARCH 16, 1963

We're in the office of Joe Mccarty on East Pearl Street. The date is March 16, 1963.Sitting with us is Will McCarty. Joe Mccarty has just heard the taped interview made byWill McCarty.

Jr. - Uncle Joe, I'd like, after hearing this tape and you making a few notes, if you'dcare to, comment, correct any version or statement that Mr. Will has made that youmay understand to be different. Also we'd like for you to fill in and give us yourversion. I'd like to start the interview by asking you your full name.

JM - Joseph Coffee Mccarty

Jr. - And how old are you?

JM - Well I'm 68.

Jr. - 68 years old. Could you fill us in on the early origin of the McCarty family?You told me in the past that the family came from Ireland. Will you give us yourversion of that family history back in Ireland?

JM - Bill as I understand it the McCartys were in power in Ireland, in other wordsthey were pretty well to do.

Jr. - Let me ask you was that Mccarty as it's presently spelled or was it McCarthy?

JM - I couldn't tell you. I don't know but as like in everything else why the oppositiongot against them and they had to leave Ireland for some reason or the other and theycame to this country.

Sr. - To Virginia first.

Jr. - Landed in Virginia.

JM - I don't know that but then I do know that grandpa McCarty settled in CarrollCounty; Jeff Mccarty settled around San Marcos, Texas; and then they had abrother by the name of Luther McCarty that settled in Kansas.

Jr. - Uncle Joe you made a comment some time ago about the religion of the family inIreland. Would you care to brief us on that?

JM - I understand Bill that they were Catholics originally and that when they mov Hto Carroll County that the only church that there was at the time was the Chr~~.~~~~~Church and so naturally they all joined.

Jr. - In other words they joined the only church there •. Where did you hear this infor-mation about the family in Ireland? .I never had heard that until

Jr. - From Annie McCarty?

NOTICEThis material may beprotected by copyrightlaw (Title 17 u. S. Code).

JM - I heard that from Annie.

JM - Annie Holman.

Jr. - Annie McCarty Holman. You made some notes on Mr. Will's interview and one thingthat I would like to ask you, did you remember your grandfather?

JM - McCarty, no sir.

/rI

Jr. - Well we were discussing the way, when he died, we said, Mr. Will said he died in1863. He kind of implied that it was in the war, in the War between the States.That's not correct? He was not killed during the war?

JM - He was killed during the war but he was not in the Army. He was ambushed on hisplace. He was shot from a horse is what they told me.

Jr. - Do you know who shot him?

JM - Didn't anybody know.

Jr. - Do you know why he was shot? Why he was ambushed?

JM - Well that was during the carpetbagger days Bill.

Jr. - It could have been a carpetbagger?

JM - That's right. There wasn't any law.

Jr. - So that established that he did not go to war.

JM - That's right.

Jr. - Well tell us what you remember about the old place at Hemingway.

JM - Well it was a big old rambling house built very comfortable and very nice for thattime. It was one of the outstanding homes there in that part of the countrY.

Jr. - Well tell us a little bit about your mother now. Mr. Will said she didn't teachschool. Wonder if you could shed a little light on her teaching.

JM - I understand from Uncle Bud McGee, I stayed with him for a couple or three years,and we talked about the thing, and he said momma did teach three or four yearsin different places. One place was, she taught in Black Hawk. He said anotherplace she taught was out near Goodman.

Jr. - Well did she teach anybody that you know?

JM - Well she taught General Flowers, General J. L. Flowers, at one time but whereI do not know.

Jr. - Probably grammar school more than likely.MDAHJM - Oh yes, they didn't have any high school.

Jr. - Well after your daddy died, where were you, what happened to you then?

JM - Well he died in August and I went to A&M entering in September that year and Nickand Levi went up to live with Annie up at Hemingway.

Jr. - Annie lived at Hemingway then? NOTICEThis material may beprotected by copyrightlaw (Title 17 U. S. Code).

JM - Annie did, yes.

Jr. - Annie Holman?

JM - That's right.

/

Jr. - Where did they live? Where did Annie Holman live in Hemingway?

JM - Our house was about a couple of hundred yards from theirs.

Jr. - After you went to A&M, tell us a little bit about what you did after you went upthere and your service work in the Army.'

JM - Well Bill I got out of A&M in 1914, and I went on this place up there at Tchula,and in those days When you finished from A&M you were automatically in the reservefor three years and so the war was declared in April of 1917, and we were calledin in May 1917 to the first officers training camp in Ft. Roots, Arkansas, andincidentally, Beth's brother was in this officers training school there at thesame time.

Jr. - And that's where you met Towns, Towns Ayers?

JM - That's right.

Jr. - Now before we get too far into our modern period, you made some notes on theearlier family background. I wonder if you would take your notes and discussthem and comment on various points.

JM - Bill I'd like to comment on ,the Rising Sun incident. This, as I understand it,poppa had this plantation supply house down there,poppa, and Uncle Ben, and Ithink Uncle John was in on it. And this Whitworth had a ferry across the riverand Whitworth was charging the customers too much to ride his ferry. They were comingover to poppa's store. So poppa told him that he was going to put a ferry in ofhis own just for his customers. And Whitworth told him to take it out of the river.And one morning Whitworth and his gang came by the store up there to buy some shellsunder the pretense that they were going deer hunting. And at that time theybacked them all up and they shot poppa, they shot Uncle Ben, they killed one of theclerks, and shot another one, and fortunately, Uncle John wasn't there at the time.But later Uncle John did kill Whitworth.

Jr. - Well was he tried?

JM - No, they didn't have any courts back then.

Jr. - So he got away with the shooting?

JM - Yes sir. MDAHJr. - So Whitworth shot up the McCarty family and the clerks.

JM - That's right.

Jr. - Well did that store close up after that shooting?NOTICE

This material may beprotected by copyrightlaw (Title 17 U. S. Code).JM - I imagine it did. I don't know.

Jr. - And that's when your daddy went to Tchula?

JM - Well he, I imagine it, I understand that poppa was crippled when he marriedmomma and they settled up at Hemingway and he had this general furnishing storeup there for these farmers around Hemingway. He hauled his freight from Greenwoodby wagon.

Jr. - What else do you show in your notes there that you want to comment on? Let me askyou a question. When you returned from the Army, was that 1919? Tell us a little

/I

bit about your returning - what you did and what you know about the origin ofJitney Jungle and McCarty Holman stores.

JM - Well Bill I got back here along the first of April in 1919 and Will and Jud andthe balance of them had this Mississippi Motor Company organized and we openedup then a little place down on Griffith Street and Henry came back along, as wellas I remember, about the last of June, and he came down there and joined me andstayed a few months, how many months I don't know. I think a little after thetime they bought this bankrupt store on South Gallatin Street, and I believe hewent down there then.

Jr. - Well he~id run that store down there so that's

JM - I think he did as well as I remember. Bill, are you adding the McCarty Holmanstore down there where Chester Wymond was on South Gallatin Street?

Sr. - That was #2.

JM - That was #2.store.

And that was when Brannon came back into the business to run that

Sr. - That's right.

JM - Then Clarence Mitchell had a store up on the corner of Porter and Gallatin andhe went bankrupt and you bought the bankrupt store, then you took, leased thestore, rented the store and moved the store you had from Chester Wymond's placeup there because it was one summer and I helped Brannon move and that's where your#2 was then.

Sr. - That's right. And then #3 we started on Farish Street close to Amite.

JM - That's right.

Sr. - In 1916.

JM- But that was the Hall store.

Sr. - Yes and Hall went bankrupt and we bought him.

JM - That's right.

Jr. - Well let me ask you about your work after you got in the Motor Company. You wereactually in Jackson when the first Jitney Jungle store was opened on April 19, 19l9?

JM - That's right.

Jr. - You returned in April? MDAHJM - Around the first of April.

Jr. - And Henry came back NOTICEThis material may beprotected by copyrightlaw (Title 17 U. S. Code).JM - As well as I remember Bill it was along in June of that year.

Jr. - In June after the first Jitney was opened?

JM - After the April that the Jitney was opened.

Jr. - And how long did it take you to liquidate and close out the Motor Company?

I

JM - Bill it took me about a year. We operated for about two years and at that time wedidn't have any finance companies and when you sold those trucks on credit then youhad to endorse the paper and take it to the bank and borrow money on it and anotherthing that ruined us was that pine lumber was worth around $90.00 a thousand, andit dropped to about $17 and the people, we had around 20 trucks sold on time,that they started bringing back in and· the only person I remember that paid for thetrucks was old man S. E. Lackey in Forest, and he had a contract with InternationalHarvesting Company at $90 a thousand for his lumber and he paid for his truck.

Jr. - What caused the market to go? Did the house building just decrease?That was during the '21 depression.

JM - That was during the '21 depression Bill, that's what killed us.

Jr. - That was a terrific drop on pine. Well after you got out and liquidated theMotor Company, where did you go?

JM - I went with McCarty Holman then.

Jr. - In what capacity and duties and what did you do up there?

JM - Just everything Bill. I was calling on the city trade and shipping and doinganything else that came my way.

Jr. - Well how long did you stay at McCarty Holman Company?

JM - Well I stayed there until the last of '27.

Jr. - And then where did you go then?

JM - Well I went with Jitney Jungle, Incorporated for a year or two.

Jr. - Did you travel?

JM - Yes and I bought the store at Helena.

Sr. - Helena, Arkansas.

JM - Helena, Arkansas, that was fixing to go bad and Denton Marsalis was going to runit for me up there if I put the money up so I did but we never did do anythingthere. Then about that time McCarty Holman was interested in these Shreveportstores over there. They had some money in there and they were about to go under.Jud came to me and asked me if I'd go over there and see what I could do with themand I told him all right. So I moved to Shreveport and stayed there about a yearand a half but we never could do anything with them.

Sr. - That was about '31 or '32. MDAHJM - That was back in '29, '30. NOTICE

This material may beprotected by copyrightlaw (Title 17 U. S. Code).

Jr. - How many stores did you have in Shreveport?

JM - We had three.

Jr. - Did McCarty Holman actually own these stores?

JM - No, McCarty Holman was interested in them. I think a fellow by the name ofHammett had an interest in those stores. Didn't he Will?

Sr. - I don't remember Joe.

/

JM - But McCarty Holman had considerable money tied up in them, and I went over thereto try to get our money out.

Jr. - When you left there where did you go?

JM - I came back here and I went in the brokerage business. That was in 1930, '31.

Jr. - Started a brokerage business and you've been in it ever since.

JM - That's right.

Jr. - And you recently sold part of your business to John Culver, is that right?

JM - \-JellI took him in as a partner.

Jr. - Well who did you marry Joe?

JM -Lr-l;C~IJ J ~lI.l""

I married Edna Wilson Nickleslfrom Durant. I married in November 1917.

Jr. - 1917 and her name was, she was known as Hon.£1>1 ,'eols J ~JM - She was called Hon Nlckles. ~)r

Jr. - Well she passed away. What year was that she passed away in?

JM - Well she died in '49.

Jr. - '49 and you had one son.

JM - That's right, Joe C. McCarty, II.

Jr. - And what does that C stand for?

JM - Coffee.

Jr. - What kin are the Coffees?

JM - I don't know, only that Uncle John's name was John Coffee McCarty and as Iunderstand it, he was named for Colonel Coffee who settled Coffeeville.

Jr. - And he's no kin to Mrs. Walter Coffey?

JM - No.

Jr. - Is it spelled the same way?

JM - No, they spell theirs C 0 F FEY. ,Ours is spelled C 0 F FEE. MDAHJr. - Tell us about Joe. Joe was in the service. He was in the Air Force wasn't

he, Naval Air Force?

JM - He was in the Naval, an instructor in the Naval Air Force.

Jr. - Well what happened to Joe?NOTICE

This material may beprotected by copyrightlaw (Title 17 U. S, Code).

JM - He had a cerebral hemorrhage from exceedingly high flying.

Jr. - Well where was he when he had this attack?

JM - He was in Corpus Christi, Texas, in the Naval School down there.

I

Sr. - When I went down there on my trip on the airline while he was sick, he told mehe had to work on Sunday and he'd sit in the plane and the students would diveand land the planes at 160 miles an hour and stop right quick there at CorpusChristi so they could land on the carriers. He hit the back of his neck and had aconcussion of the brain. They put him in the hospital there and about a weekor two later I was there. He put his arm on the radiator and burned it. Therewere no special nurses at that time and the heat came on and burned him and he died.

JM - That's right.

Jr. - The abrupt shock on landing caused the hemorrhage?

Sr. - That's right while he was teaching these boys how to land the planes at 160 milesper hour so they could land on the carriers.

Jr. - I imagine that was the cable stop that grabbed the back hook on the plane. I'veseen carrier planes land and they must land in a very short distance using acable stop. That is a very rough shock. Well let me ask you Joe. Joe had a son,what's his name?

JM - Joe C. McCarty, III.

Jr. - And how old is Joe now?

JM - Joe is 19.

Jr. - You've remarried since Hon died. Who did you marry?

JM - I married Fannie Nevils.

Jr. - And living with Fannie now?

JM - That's right.

Jr. - And very happily married. Would you tell us what you know about Nick and Leviafter your mother died? You said that Annie Holman took care of them in Hemingway.Tell us about it.

JM - Well Annie took Levi and Nick up there after pappa died. Poppa had a housekeeperhere and they lived out there at the house until he died. And then they both wentand lived with Annie and some time after that Nick stayed with Uncle Levi McGeeand Aunt Fannie down on the place at Tchula, and then Levi, after he got a littleolder, he moved down to Jackson and lived with Hon and me for about four or fiveyears a~ ~ent = grarmnar school here in Jackson and finished high school while M DA Hhe was Ilvlng wlth us.

Jr. - Let me ask you a question about your farming days. You say you farmed up in Tchula.Is that the place that Mr. Will said'that he farmed prior to that, where thecotton was burned at Howard? Is that the same place?

JM - I lived with Uncle Levi McGee and Aunt Fannie McGee.

NOTICEThis material may beprotected by copYrightlaw (Title 17 U. S. Code),

JM - That's the same place.

Jr. - Where did you live up there?

Jr. - Where was their home?

JM - On Pine Grove Plantation.

/

Jr. - And that was in the old house that burned about ten years ago?

JM - Yes and you see our place up there, one part was on the east end of the McGeeplace and the other was on the west end of the McGee place, and their placewas there in the middle.

Jr. - When you got out of the service and carne here, tell us what you know about thebuilding of the first Jitney Jungle store - about the fixtures, and anythingelse that may be of interest.

JM - Bill they were building the fixtures on the job at this time. The first storewas opened where Jitney #6 is now, and will had a carPenter by the name of Mr. Beatty.

Jr. - Who, Bailey?

JM - Beatty, B EAT T y, I think is the way he spelled his name, but they hand builteach shelf and all the balance of the fixtures and they worked together. I don'tknow where Will got his plans from but they were mostly by ear I think.

Jr. - Well what was Jud doing at this time, what type of work, what part of thebusiness was he primarily interested in?

JM - Jud was, had charge of keeping the books and Jud was doing the buying at that time.

Jr. - And what was Mr. Will doing?

JM - Well at that time Will was out on the retail trade and just worked through and···through Bill. Will was the originator of Jitney Jungle.

Jr. - I'd appreciate it if you'd bring me current on Ben McCarty and Aunt Lela andtheir side of the McCarty family.

JM - Well Uncle Ben McCarty was the youngest member of the family and he went downinto what they called the swamp then and bought about 3000 acres of land that'sbetween Hemingway and Greenwood and Uncle Ben married Aunt Lela, her namewas Lela Williams, and they lived down there on this place and Uncle Ben had aplantation store down there at the time and he died and Ben was born about four,five, six months after his daddy died. Aunt Lela held that entire place togetherall of her life until Ben got through school and was able to take it over.

Jr. - Well that was a marvelous piece of work for a woman who lost her husband thatearly, to keep a business and run a place, the store, and everYthing that long.

JM - It certainly was. MDAHJr. - Well I hope to go and take this tape to Aunt Lela and interview her just as soon

as I can. I'd like to get her to give some facts about the old family, aboutthe early history of the family. I imagine she'd be a pretty good person to giveme that, wouldn't you think?

JM - She's just about the last one that's left now.NOTICE

This material may beprotected by cOPYright

W' t . t law (Title 17 U.S. CodeJr. - Well Joe I want to thank you for giving us this information. e re ry~ng 0have a record on tape where we can hear from one's own mouth the situation.We want to thank Mr. Will for sitting in on this too, so we'll cut it off righthere. Thank you.

I