answers from a man who asks hard questions

8/6/2019 Answers From a Man Who Asks Hard Questions

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A N INTERVIEW WITH JACQUES E L L U L BY DA V

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Aldous Huxley h a ~ said thl.lt Jacques El lul "made the case" he had tried 10 makein Brave New World.

Os Guinl1ess believes Ellul's is the"cri/iea/voice of the seventies."

CNR.ISnAN1TY Too.1Ypresents this inter view by David Glll, recognizing thai Elluldoes not always square wilh cr's theowg ieal POSi1 ion. I I is important, however,[or thoughtful men and women ro be inrro duced 10 s1Ach an inj7lential Christian.

We especially hope thar this sludy o[FUu/ will stimulate fresh though1 on how,in lhis decade, we can deallvirh godli ness, comrm,mily, wirness. and daily work.

CT reorganized and extensl'vely ediredthe interview' transcripts for publication,

ACKI'ACKER AND SAILOR IN HI S

SPARE TIME. Jacques Ellul isa brother in Christ who en

joys struggling against mountain an dsea.

Bu t hi s real foe ha s for years been tlletechnological $Ociety, A little like Sam son, he ha s t r i td ' to pul! down lJle pil lars of a society in the grip of what hecalls "Technique," a "raving rational ism" that centers almost religiously in[echno[vgy, The intrusive gods of science,effj ciency, bureaucracy, ar l ificiaJitv, ra tionalism, an d secularism provoke hi mto combat.

While criticizing these in The Techno logica{ Society and other works, hi slarger purpose has been to call us awayfrom such petty gods to a relationsllipwlIh lh e God who sets us free in Christ.

H i ~ 40 volumes hav(' been either his wry and sociology, or theology an d eth ics. In tbem he ha s been a propheticvoiv nol only La lawyers (he ha s been aprofessor of law a t the University ofBordts, polilical

scientisls, economists, anand not only to ~ c u m e bu t to evangelicals, Cathol

Christian::..His work rattles the wi

comfor table churches. officeEllul is patien t when

his background, But when to Christ, Scripture, and Ohe moves to lhe edge of hiinterior fires begin to burnprovoke reflection, to ge tan d genuinely kno"" ou r

He is now retired as prhistory an d sociology of

the University of Bordeauxviews with him in France, by Prof. Joyce Hanks of tof Costa Rica. My wife, Luth t tapes, which appearform,

CONVERSION,OCCUPATION, CAR

PROFESSOWhen di d you discover thintense, personal way?

As a young ma n I read m

th e Bible, bu t no one evthem to me. Fo r tllree mwa s 15 I attended a cattaught by a pastor, bu tno t answer my questions.in g thai you were ne\'erthese things i\ thome, suIn.v mol he r queslions, thoslrong believing Protestanwa s a Voltairian skepticagre


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In addi rion to the significanthese twO t r i e n d ~ , I' d ~ t n ' s s the id

hope, 1 have been very critical intually. an d have tned t o state th eas realistically as possible. Bu tsame time, hope i;; centra) in myan d thought.

By what authors were you inOuein th e 19305 an d early '40s? VeEller has said that "Ellul keepson hi s desk, but Kierkegaard ihearL"

In about 1933 I began readingkegaard. Each time 1 have read hibeen wonderfuL Each time he


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What is th e relation of th e Ol d to th e

evil in me world. It i;, no longer a questionof IOv1ng a neighbor who is somehow independent of the economicsi tuation. We arenow all responsible.

errancy. Ins go b e y o ~ a

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r m e . I _ cof the M i ~

year s ago.,ay witholjtn o m i ( ; probi

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cannot l o v ~

am unite0le for, t 1 i ~ '

New Testament in developing a biblical ethic? Ou r view of war, for instance,

needs to be i l luminaled by th e exampleof Joshua an d David. Yet ho w do werelate Christ to this?

All Scripture is inspired by God, and itall reveals Jesu s Christ to l iS . \I,,'e ca n neverfully know the Christ by reading the Gospels alone, so it is important to read theOld TeSlamenl. All the Bible teaches uswho Jesus is.

On the question of wa r in The Old Testament, we must remember that God is notonly a God of love, bu t also th e Master ofhistory, an d the Judge. The God who wasincarnated in Jesus ChriST can be a terribleGod: "It is a fearful thing to faJ] into thehands of the Jiving God." This text fromHebrews shows us tha t God can indeed bea fearsome Being. Bu t he is also ou r Father. Calvinists have sometimes stressedhim as Judge an d neglected him as Father.One must no t torget either side of God.TIle Word of God teaches u.s who JesusCluist is dwing all of history.

While some ai m at high standards, olh

el;S justify a second-rate discipleshipbecause they know they will fall short.What would you sa y to them?

The rea] difficulty is always to knov..'how to make God's calling concrete. ManyClu-istians have become polilically involved on behalf of th e poor. But we mustask, "Who ar e the truly poor?" It is notfully obvious. The difficulty is co find ho wto apply oW' faiTh in God to each situation.As we do this, we must not allow seLfcriticism to immobilize us. I don't knowfinally if God accepts my actions an dchoices: the final judgment is his to make.BUll trust in his judgment, so r can act infreedom.

EsCHATOLOGY AN DUNIVERSALISM

Can a preoccupation with the eod timespotentiallydevelop into an interest in ethical actions in the pre..


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AnswersfromaManWho Asks Hard Questions

community at the level of the WorldCouncil of Churches. And for 30 years Ipanicipated in th t national synod ofthe Reformed Church of France; for 20years I wa s 8 member of its na tionalcouncil. Bu t I always re\limed very unhappy after the meetings of these groups.

On th e local level, of course, in ou rlittle group of 15 or 20 people. we experience some communit),', bU I on a smallscale. In Bible slUdies, for example.whar 1 have learned ha s often comefrom othel- members, even when I havebeen the leader. They have pushed mean d caused me to learn new concepts.This community bnngs out in me thedesire 10 do research. They make myfaith grow. I try to avoid the situationwhere the group listens only to on e per

son. Rather, we should use the gifts ofall the members. But it is difficuh tob,ing people to believe that within thechur-ch everyone has a gift.

Is "CALLING" THE SAME AS"WORK"?

Are you still convinced that the biblicalview of work must begin ""ith th e Fallrath er tha n with the doctrine of Creation?

Classieally, Christians have held thatwork existed in the Creation. But it -""aswork in a different sense there. \Vork in

Genesis 1 an d 2 was no t utilitarian. All

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[he trees gavc their frui t spontaneously,an d though Adam wa s commissionedto watch over th e Garden, no enemiesthreatened hi m there. So it was a g06dwork. a job, bu t no t on e that was a necessity.

Since God's work was creati ve and verygood. can we sa y that, as much as possible, ou r work ought to be creative, servin g life, leading to products that ar evel")' good?

Yes, but l donot think we can say thalCreation was a job, work, lor God. TheGreeks an d Babylonians consideredCreation to be an effort. Bu t the Biblesays it is the Word rather than a work.It is something more simple than work,I agree that God's act was creative. an d

that what responds in us is word an dwork. There is a work command, bu tAdam an d Eve were in the presence ofGod, not merely doing a work or pursuin g a vocatIOn. Th e ideas of work ".odvocation are confusing, bUT I believeth a I vocation (calling) is always an donly service to God.

In your books yo u make a radical distinction between "work" an d "calling."Bu t consider your work with the Prevention Club [a minis t ry to troubled

young people in the city]. Does no t eVE-

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01 gV"lu galnst "Te" It

David Gill: A good deal of confusionhas surrounded the words "technique"and "technology'" in EngliS,h translations -of your works. Many believe yo uare opposed to all forms of tech nol ag'y.and that you think it is not only nonChristi


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: . , i , ; p j ~ > 1 taught classes on the thought of:;;,il:''';'\1arx and his successors, I did nOI try to

) , : : ~ ' ;teach that Marx was wrong. Marx saidf i ? " , ; ~ : ~ m e admirable [hings, an d I told my"/ _" :students .hat this wa s so. It wa s amus

- ( ~';ing to me, then, that students would'often ask, "How ca n yo u teach this.when you ar e a Christian ?" So I would'b e given opportunity to respond.

1 also felt it wa s important to be,available w my students. I ha d a close.pastoral relationship with many of them.

Should we encourage people to bringtheir work into closer conformity to theircalling from God? Sometimes your writ-ings seem to dismiss th e possibility of,service to God in one's secular work.

I would not have worked so much myself if 1 ha d not been convinced thatwork responds to a certain will o[ God,and not only t o a necess ity of the world,

, The difficulty comes in that it is necessary to appreciate a job in the measureto which it is c!"eative and liberating. r

:, agree with the Reformed tradition in';refusing to make a simple distinction',between work that is good an d work,that is no t good. I have a new group

-::forrning in Paris, composed of bankers: an d st'ockbrokers. They ar e Christians,

Can I tel] them that a Christian should

._not be a stockbroker? That is very diffi'cplt.to do.

'Peter directed Cornelius's attention toChrist as Lord, an d left hi m as a Roman'ce'nturion. Bu t i l wa s no t long beforejnost Christian "Corneliuses" (army of

,fleers) left their commissions, 'Whatwould happen jf we followed Paul's ex

. . . ,' ample with bankers and stockbrokers?I agree with this approach, But the

. problem remains that there ar e various-'techniques used in different jobs. I t is

, difficult to judge accunltely an d fairly. whether me work is to th e glory of:God-that IS, whether it is creative an dliberating.

Is it fair to summarize your adVice to. Christian lawyers by saying that yo u' think they should gather to analyzetheir profession and practice realisti

:'cally? Do )'OU think they should studybiblical notions of justice an d law, an d

--then discuss an d pray to discover whatthis means fo r their la w practices?

That is [l fair summary, Th e first

point is very important, especially forlawyers, since they are tempted by idealism. It is well an d good to serve thelaw, bu t they must understand the reality of what is happening, Just laSI montha young man struck his daughter, whothen fell on the sidewalk. becomingcd pp le u an d blind as a resu It of a spinalinjury. The prosecuting attorney wa!> aChlistian, as were: rhe defending attorne y and th e judge. I know al l threequite well.

The father ha d a temper, but was agood man, sensiti lie and devastated bythis accident, However, the press portrayed hi m as an unworthy. scandalousfather. The proseculOr was appalling,an d the defending lawyer had no concrete defense. The young ma n was sentenced 1O 17 veal'S in prison an d hunt:himself the next day,

r told the lawyers afterward,"You di dno t realistically judge the person in thi"maHer." I t is important to suess theneed of the legal profession to be realisti c and responsible,

What were your experiences with th eAssociation of Protestant Professionals?

Most lasted six years, from 1947 to1953. Participants. who might havebeen businessmen, [o r instance, submitted problem5. We tried to get them

l:O reHect on practical matters. Therewere cungresses, srudy courses, and coosultatium. A businessman might submit a busmess ventUl-e for the group'sstudy an d discussion, Tw o g r o u p ~ , doctors and t e a ~ ~ h e r s , have continued tothis day, bU l the others have not.

In some of your writings about alternative educatioll you have recommendedgetting off into the mountains, camping and so on . Do you think a Christiancollege is "'Tong to locate near a major

secular university?In France there is an interesting ex

periment at Aix-en-Provence. A groupof Christians have installed a theological school right next to th e university'scollege of le t ters an d SCIences, They arcsucceeding very well. The university islay an d secular, and has no mor,,1 preconcepti ons or idealism, The facu] ty oftheology is thus the place where student'sca n find responses to theIr question,,;.

Ca n we hope that theologically an d ethically traiDed professionals might go back

to their churches and teach a Chriview of work and discipleship tblue-collar worke('S wh o worshipthem?

It sounds excellent. For workers, Ctianity has appeared at other ti mbe either a means of getting (heaccepl [heir condition, or a meancr i t icizing sode,)', 1 believe thiscism is specially imponant, andsome new aSSOU3lions of workers mbe created, since American labor unan : no t at al l in the busi.ness of tlorming society. I t is important toChristian associations that ponder ces in society.

~ E R W O R BY DAVID GILL

What are we 10 think of jacques Elluthe inlrodUCliOil 10 his In Season, OSeason I have stated pari or myans\ver:

"While the label 'prophet" is tabout rather loosely these days, lieve that in th e case of Jacques Elis fully appropriate, The value oprophet lies in his abiliIy to disturbstatus quo, to pu t in question ,""taken for granted. to shed new ligol d issues, to bring in a ne w perstive, As in the commission to [he proJeremiah, the prophet acts by 'uproot

tearing down, destroying, and overthing,' and by 'building and planting.'prophet is both angry an d compassale. He brings a Word from outstdebrings a challenge.

"O n the other hand, the prophetlimitations. The prophet is not a tein t he full sense of the term. The teagives a more complete, reasonedsition of the truth. filling it out andplying it. Ellul's work has many redges and not a few blind spots,s t a t c m e n t ~ , and cont.radictions. As 'l

ing,' Ellul's wod: is lacking in vaways. But' as 'prophecy: it is an esive challenge that is ignored onlgreat loss. Americans need to gcontinued and expandeJ hearing tBordeaux prophet in ou r technologwilderness."

David W. Gill i , ~ dean an dassocialf prQ!'eSSOI' of Chri s {ian ethic5 a/ New College,Berke.iey, California. He isthe author or The Word ofGud in the Ethics of JiicquesEllul (Scarecrow; AlLA Monograph), and other writings on Ellul.

answers from a man who asks hard questions

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