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Accessproblemsdueexternaltopoproduction

www.8a.nu

2009020600:00:00

"MarcoTroussier,fromtheFrenchfederationFFME,hasinformed8athat externalguideproductionlikeRockfaxcopyinglocalproductionisathreattolocalaccesswork.FFMEisworkinghardwithaccessissuesbutoftentheexternalproducedtoposdonotincludethelastlocalagreementsandcouldcreateaccessproblemsetc.Theequippersandthelocaltopoproducermakeandupdateaccessagreementswiththelandownerandthelocalcouncilinmanycliffs.Theseguysareoftenupsetwhentheymeetforeignerswithacommercialtopoproducedabroad.InsomecasestoposlikeRockfaxcouldcreatedbiglocalaccessroblems,accordingTroussier.Theclimbingcommunityshouldsupportlocallyproducedtoposandlocalaccessagreementseverywhereintheclimbingworld.Rockfaxisstealinglocalmoneyandcreatingaccessproblems.Moralityagainstprofit,chooseyourcamp!"

JohanSvensson

2009020603:42:32

Thisissoonesided,"moralityagainstprofit,chooseyourcamp",whatisthat...Theremustbeawaytoworktogether.LocalguidesareoftenhardtogetbyandperhapsRockFaxcouldhaveawebadresswheretheypresentupdatesonlocalinfo.Ithinkthatisaresposibilitythatcomeswithproducingguides!

MattHall 2009020604:41:53

It'sridiculoustomakethisissuesoblackandwhite.Peopleneedtoeducatethemselvesastolocallanduseagreementsandcustoms.WithconcerntoRockfax"stealinglocalmoney"Ithinktheyhaveeveryrighttocompetefairlywithlocalguidebookauthors.Theyshouldconscienceenoughtoincludeinformationonaccessissuesetc.butasclimbersitisalsoourdutytoinformourselvesandberespectful.

jghedge 2009020608:02:03

"WithconcerntoRockfax"stealinglocalmoney"Ithinktheyhaveeveryrighttocompetefairlywithlocalguidebookauthors."

Thethingyou'renotgettingisthatthey'renotjust"localguidebookauthors". Thepeoplewhospentthetimeandmoneytodevelop(bolt)thecragsarelookingtorecouptheircostsbysellingguidestotheareatheydeveloped.IfRockfaxwantstoprintguidestocrags,thentheycangooutandbolttheirowncrags,andprintguidesforthem.Therearecertainlyplentyofnewareastodevelop.

Ifafriendofyoursspentthousandsofdollarsandhundredsofhoursdevelopinganewcrag,wouldyoutellhimyouhave"everyrighttocompete"ifyoupublishedaguidetoitagainsthiswishes?Orwouldyoulethimputouttheguidesohecouldgetbacksomeofthemoneyhespentdevelopingit?

StefanoVarnerin

2009020609:29:36

Itotallyagreewithjghedge,we'renottalkingabout2bookauthorsincompetition,butaboutthelocalareadeveloperthatspendtime,energyandalotofMONEYtoboltcliffsthatwecanallclimbeduehishardworkandaboutsomeonewhoonedaycametothecliff,buythelocalguideandsay"nicespot,icancopytheguideandsellitabroad"..........sowhohastheright?

AlanJames 2009020609:51:44

OneoftheproblemsmanytravellingclimbershavewhenvisitingcragsinFranceisgettingholdofthelocalinformation.Theguidebookscoververysmallareasandareusuallyonlyavailableinselectedlocations.Theresultofthisisthatclimberseitherjustvisitthemainpopularcrags,ortheyvisitthenewcragswithoutproperinformation,whichcancauseproblemsiftheyparkinthewrongplace,orclimbthereatthewrongtimeofyearwhenthecragisclosedforsomereason.

ThenewRockfaxguidestoFranceaimtohelptravellingclimbersbybringingtogetherlotsofsmallcrags,togetherwiththemorepopularones,intoafewbooks.Thebooksarebeingcarefullyresearchedsothatwehavegoodaccessinformationtoavoidproblemswithlocallandowners.Formostofthecragswewillnotbeincludingallthesectors,justafew,wewillthenbepointingatlocalguidebookswherepeoplecangetextrainformation.

Theinformationinthesebooksisnotcopiedfromotherbooksinmanycasesthatisimpossiblebecauseitdoesn'tevenexistinotherguidebooks.Allthephotosandmapsandinformationisbeingresearchedbytheauthor.Ofcoursewedouselocalguidebookfortheroutenames,andwealsousethelocalgrades,althoughwedoassessthoseourselvesaswell.

Therehasalwaysbeenaquestionaboutlocalclimbersfundingboltingbysellinglocalguidebooks.InourextensiveexperiencetheneteffectofanEnglishlanguageguidebookofferingbroadcoverageofanareaisthatmoretravellingclimbersvisitanareawhichresultsinaboostinlocaltradeandanincreaseinlocalguidebooksales.

ThereismoreinformationabouttheRockfaxpolicyonAccessandBoltingherehttp://www.rockfax.com/general/access.html

AlanJames,RockfaxandUKClimbing.com

gianluca

2009020610:01:30

moneyornot,theaccess(andfreecampsite,insomecases)issueisveryimportant.

Ifatopoisneveruptodateonthisstuff,itseemsagoodreasonnottobuyit.

Itisalsotruethata(hopefully)smallpartoftheclimbingcommunitylacksrespectandcommonsensewhencomingtoaccessissues:10minutesmorewalkareoftenportrayedasabiginjustice*.Sotheyarehappierinnotbeinginformed,maybe...

*seecresciano.I'veseenagroupofitalianclimbersobviouslygivingafuckaboutthe"strongsuggestion"topark@thevillage,andsayingalotofbullshittoportraytheirnegligenceasafightforfreedomorsthlikethat...Happytonoticethatvisitingclimbersfromgermanspeakingareaslookedmuchmoresensitiveandawareofthiskindofissues.

AlanJames 2009020610:18:23

InreplytojghedgeandStefano:

Thereisnowherenearenoughmoneyinguidebooksalestoactuallyfundtheboltingandusuallythispolicyjustresultsinbadguidebooksthatarenotwhattheclimberswant.MarcoTroussierdoesn'trecognisethisasanissueinhispublicemailpostedbyJens.

InthiscasecorrectaccessinformationisthemostimportantissueandthatiswhereMarcohasgotitcompletelywrong.Howcanalocalguidebookhaveaccurateinformationtoacragifitis10yearsoutofdateordoesn'tevenexist?

Publishingthecorrectaccessinformationinbooksthatarewidelyavailableisthebestwaytocommunicatetotravellingclimbers.Iwouldwelcomeanycontributionsfromlocalclimberswhoareconcernedabouttheaccessinformationtotheircragnotbeingaccurate,althoughweareresearchingitverycarefullyourselves.

Alan

DavidAtchisonJones

2009020610:47:01

Hitherefolks,youcanalwaystrustMarcoTtostirthingsupthatisnothingnewofcourse.Hebringsuptheusualcompletebunkum(rubbish)abouttopoguidebooks.Thereare4commonpointsthatcanbedealtwithseparatelyandshouldbe.1.Access:Thisisanimportantissueandcanonlybedealtwithonarealtimebasis,sosimplyallclimbersshouldvisitalocaltouristofficewhenclimbinginanareatoseeanyuptodateaccessinformation.Thiscanbeupdateddailyandpostedinthewindowofthetoursitoffice.Thisisasensiblesystemandcanbeseenbybothlocalresidentsandvisitingclimbers.2.BoltFunding:Inanylocalareatherearetraditionsforclimbingandboltingandthisshouldremainintotallyatthewishesofthelocalclimbingcommunity.Howitisfundedisuptothemofcourse.Ihavealwaysfeltthatifmoneyistobesoughtfromclimbersthenchargetheactualclimberswhilstontheroutes,theyaretheonlypeoplewhoactuallybenefitfromtheequipping.3.Books:Thesearecommercialproductsinacommercialmarket.Itisalwayswisetotreatbooktopicsasseparate.IfIbuyabookontheholocaustitissimplytogaininformationandhasnothingtodowithanythingelseatall.Linkingthebuyingofacommercialproductwithanendactivityisanonstarter.Freedomofthepressisoneofthemostimportantthingsinfreecivilization.Ingeneralthemorebooksyouhaveonanysubjectthebetter.4.Topocopying:Letsfaceit,ifa 'footballer' wenttoCeuse,theycouldsimplycountthenumberoffallsclimberstookontheroutesandmakeaveryaccurateguidebookbysimplededuction.Theconceptofmakingaguidebookisridiculouslyeasywithmoderndigitalcamerasetc.Ihavemadeover10guidebooksthatIthinkareprettyuseful.Ivisitanareaandmakemyownjudgements,andjustaboutallotherguidebookwritersdoalso.

JoakimThommesen

2009020611:03:25

IhavetoagreewithAlanJames.Thelocalguidebooksarewaytodifficulttogetholdof,andtoooftentheyareoflowqualitycomparedtoRockfax(MrTroussiersoldguidebookforChateauvertisanexeption,thoughthat'sabeautifulandinspiringguidebook).Also,agoodandeasilydistributedguidebooklikeRockfaxbringwaymorepeopletothecragsthantheundergroundlocalguidebooks.So,inotherwords,Rockfaxisbetteratgeneratingclimbersatthecrag,and,hence,cashtothelocalbusinesses.

JustlookatFontbeforeRockfaxtheguidebookswereuseless.AndafterRockfaxittooktheinitiativeofanotherforeignertogettothenextlevel:BartvanRajandhis7+8guidebook.ThefrenchguidebooksforFontarestillprettyuseless.So,thelocalsshouldgettheiracttogetherratherthancomplainingaboutgoodforeigninitiative.It'snotacoincidencethatthiscritisismcomesfromFrance...Ifitwasuptothem,allguidebookswouldbewritteninfrenchlanguageexclusively.ThankGodforgoodEnglishguidebooks.

RockonRockfax!

AlanJames 2009020611:32:02

IagreewithyougenerallyhereDavid,butIthinkyouremphasisontheaccesspointiswrong.

AccessisVERYimportant.Itneedstobeaddressedinanumberofwaysandgooduptodateguidebooksarecrucialinthisrespect.SoisuptodatelocalTouristInformationandsoaresignsatthecrag.Climberswillnotbotheralwaysgoingtothetouristofficeitwouldbeacompletepainifyouhadtodothisforeverycrag.Havinggoodinternationalguidebooksthatindicateaccurateinformation,aswellashighlightingcragswheretheremaybeproblemsisessential.

Alan

Jens

2009020611:55:49

IpartlydisagreewithMarcoandIfounditjustnaturalandgoodthatRockfaxandothersproducelocaltopos.SomeofmyclimbingtripsisadirectresultasofaRockfaxguideandIhaveneverbeendisappointedofwhattheyhaveproduced.

However,IunderstandtheconcernsTroussierputforward.Iguesstheeasiestwaytogetalocalcooperationandgoodpublisityfortheexternaltopoproducer,wouldbetocreateawebpagewhereTroussiercouldinformaboutthelatestaccessissues.Furthermore,alltopoproducershouldalwayscomittogive"Onebolt"tothelocalcommunityforreplacingbadonesetc.

Thenewswaspublishedmainlyinorderincreasetheunderstandingbytheclimbingcommunityonaccessmatters.

DavidAtchisonJones

2009020612:12:54

IrefermyhonourablefriendtotheanswerIgavepreviously.Tosolveaccessissuesitmustbe'RealTime.'TakeanarealikethePfalzwheretherearehundredsofcliffs,andeveryoneofthemhastheirownbirdrestrictiontosuitthebirdsnestingintheareathatyear.Thethreecommonwaysofdealingwiththisare1touristinfocentres.2Informationsignsattheaccesspointstocliffs.3Infofromthenationalclimbingfederationofthatcountryontheirrealtimewebsites.

InmyJingoWobblyEuropeguidbook,ofcourseIgiveasmuchinfotohelpclimbersbeawareofaccessforbirdsetc,butIwouldnotwantanyonetoeverrelyoninformationthatisolderthanaweekforimportantaccessissues.Guidebooksaresimplynottherightmediumforthisinformation.

AlanJames 2009020612:14:52

"Thenewswaspublishedmainlyinorderincreasetheunderstandingbytheclimbingcommunityonaccessmatters."

Wellcontactmefirstthensothatyoucangiveabalancednewsitem.Itisonlybalancednewsthatwillactuallyincreaseunderstanding,andotherformofreportingwilldistortopinionsandperception.

Alan

Jens

2009020612:51:22

@Alan:MarcoTroussierforwardedthemailcorrespondanceyouhavehadwithhim.

Thisisandebatearticleandnormallywhentheyarepublishedinnewspapers,anybodycanrespond.

ItistheviewofMarcothatiswritten.Youmaydisagree.

Ifyouwanttopublishsomethingonthefirstpage,youaremostwelcometodoso.

AlanJames 2009020613:50:15

Couldyoupublishmyfirstpostabovethenplease?

Alan

MichaelRyan 2009020613:51:24

Jens,youareunprofessionalintheextreme.

Ifyouquotesomeone,putwhattheysaidinquotationmarks.Checkyourfacts.Emailpeoplementionedintheitemfortheirsideofthestory.

Thisishowyoushouldhavedoneit.READANDLEARN.

GivingBackToThoseWhoEquipSportRoutes

Climberswhoestablishnewsportroutesattheirlocalclimbingareasspendagreatdealoftime,effortandmoneycreatingroutesthatwecanallenjoy.Asindividualsweallbenefitfromtheireffortswhenweclimbtheseroutes,especiallysoatpopularclimbingdestinationareaswherethesunshinesandtherockandroutequalityishigh.Withouttheeffortsofnewrouterswewouldhavenothingtoclimb.

Howcanwegiveback?

Firsttreatallclimbingareaswithrespect:don'tlitter,toiletbeforeyougoclimbing,keepthenoisedown,parkappropriately.

Checkifthereareanyaccessissuesatyourcragchoicebyvisitingthelocaltouristinformationofficeandaskinglocalclimbers.

Secondly,searchoutlocalboltfundsandcontribute.Ifthereisalocalguidebook,buyit.

Thirdly,youhelpthelocaleconomybystayingatlocalcampsites,refugios,hotelsandpatronisinglocalsupermarkets,barsandrestaurants.

Makesureyoutellpeoplethatyouareaclimberandwhereyouarefrom.Thiswillspreadthewordthatclimbingisimportanttothelocaleconomy.

Notonlydoindividualsbenefitfromtheeffortsoflocalrouteequippersbutalsomanycommercialclimbingcompaniesandindividuals:climbinggearcompanies,guides,guidebookpublishers,photographers,theclimbingmediaincludingbothmagazinesandwebsites.

Shouldtheseentitiesmakecontributionstolocalboltandaccessorganisations?Somedoalready.Butshoulditbecomemoreformalised?

Oneperennialhottopicisoutofareapublishersproducingguidebookstodestinationareasandtheeffecttheyhaveonlocalclimbingareas.

8a.nurecentlyreceivedanemailfromMarcoTroussier,fromtheFrenchfederationFFMEwhoisconcernedaboutoutofareaguidebookpublishersinFrance.

Hesaid,"quoteshere,quotesherequotesherequotesherequotesherequotesherequoteshere"

8a.nucontactedAlanJamesofRockfax,aUKbasedclimbingguidebookpublisherwhohaveproducedguidebookstoSpanish,Norwegian,andUSAclimbingareas,andhaveseveralguidebookstoFranceinpreparation.

8a.nuaskedAlanJameshisviewpointonoutofareapublishersproducingguidebooks.

AlanJamessaid,"quotesherequotesherequotesherequoteshere"

Whatisyourpointofview.Pleasecontributethetheforumthreadassociatedwiththisnews/opinionitem.

ENDS

gianluca

2009020614:08:38

OnethingIdon'tunderstand:whypeoplesaythatlocaltoposaredifficulttofind.

InallplacesIvisited,thelocaltopowaseasilyavailableonthespot.ifoutofprinting,there'salwaysacopyattheclimber'sbar/meetingpoint(oftenagoodwaytogetintouchwiththelocalcommunityandtogetinformedonaccessissues).

Then,insomecasesthelocaltoposareawful(bleau,orfontasyoulike,isanexcellentexample.Thedutch7+8isunbeatableforaccuracy,synthesisandstylishlayout...it'sworththemoneyevenforthosewhoclimblowerthan7a,justfortheaccessmaps).Insomecasesthoughthelocaltoposhavesomethingspecialand"mithique"tothem(theswisstoposoncresciano/chironico/gotthardbouldering,theswissticinosportclimbingguide,cusetopoexpeciallytheonewithadrawinginthefirstpage,oldeditionandsoon...)

Iwanttonoticeonethingthough.thebest"outsider"toposareuniqueworksmadebypeoplewhobasicallyhavechosenanareaastheirsecondhome.Iwouldbeverysurprised,forinstance,iftheauthorsof7+8wereabletomakeanequallycomprehensiveandaccuratetopoonTicinobouldering....

Idon'thavedirectexperiencewithjinglowobblyandrockfax,butI'veseenloadsof"awful"commercialtopobooks...accessdescriptionswhere"fewmeters"become"fewminutes",mixedupdrawings,andmanyodditiesofthatkind...

...ifthetopoismadebypeoplewhoreallyknowtheareatheyaredescribinginsteadofputtingtogetherspaperstheygotfromfriendsoffriends,orcopyingsomeoneelse'swork,thoseerrorsaremuchlessfrequent...

AlanJames 2009020614:30:46

HiGianluca

AsanexampleofguidebookavailabilityinFrance:InBuisleBaronnieslastSummer,Iwantedguidebooksforsomeofthelocalcrags.IwenttotheTouristInformationCentreandtheyhad2localtopos,bothquiteold,foraround20EurostotalIboughtthem.Ithendiscoveredthatthesecoveredtwoofthecragsandthereareabout20cragsaroundBuisthevastmajorityofthesecragsarenotinanyguidebook.OtherguidebookswereoutofprintthelocalguidesofficewasnotopenwhenIneededitandtheinformationinthereisnotinaformatthatyoucancarrytothecrag.

Howeverthatdoesn'treallygettotheheartoftheproblem.Eveniftherehadbeengoodlocalguidebooksinthetouristoffice,IwantmybooksbeforeIsetoff,sothatIcanplanmytrip.IwanttobeinspiredbylocalguidesbeforeIchooseadestination.IthinkmanytravellingclimbersmissoutonsomegreatcragsinFrancesimplybecausetheydon'tknowaboutthem.

Youareabsolutelycorrectthatthebestguidebookaretheoneswrittenbyauthorswithgreatlocalknowledge.WetrytodothisatRockfaxexamplehereofabookwrittenbyagreatguidebookwriterandaknowledgeablelocal(byfarthebestcombination)http://www.rockfax.com/publications/books/item.php?id=133

Alan

Jens

2009020614:53:30

@Alan:YourfirstposteaboveispostedasIsuggested.

FormeitisinterestingthatonceIapproachedtocommentthearticlewhereyoupublishedmypicturesayingthatIwas"messingwithyourEgrade",IgottheresponsethatIcouldpostitintheopenforum.

When8apostedyourcommentatthefirstpage,youanswermetopostmineinyourforum.

MichaelRyan 2009020615:16:06

Jens,

YouaremorethanwelcometosubmitanarticleatUKClimbing.comandweshallfeatureit.Makesureitiswellwritten,wellresearchedandillustrated.

TOPIC8a.nuwhatisitandwhereisitgoing?byJensLarssen.

Thereyougo,anopeninvite.

YouwereandBjornwerealsoofferedaCommercialProfileatUKClimbing.com(usualcost200each)afterwerananewsitemaboutyourselfandSonnieTrotter'messingwithourEgrade".

YoudearJenscamelatetothedebate.Soceaseyourchildishegogames.

YouhavenotyetsaidanythingnewabouttheEgradediscussionthathasnotbeensaidanddiscussedalready,atgreatlength,intheUKclimbingmedia.

Startbyreadingthis:

TheHeadpointingDebatebyAdamWainright

http://www.climber.co.uk/categories/articleitem.asp?cate=1&topic=15&item=171

Allthebest,

MickUKClimbing.com

Philipp

2009020615:20:12

IhavetoagreewithAlaninthatpointthatiprefergettingtheinformationaboutthearea/cragsinadvance.Iwouldappreciateitverymuchtogivethelocalstheproperrespectforlettingusvisitorhaveagoodtimeongoodroutesbutthatssometimesquitehard.Whenisearchedtheinternetforguidebooksiwasneverabletofindanythingpublishedbyalocalandonlyavaibleondemandorso.Itsalwaystheshopsandpublisherslikerockfaxthatprovidedecentbooksinadvance.Andidontwanttotaketheriskmakinga2weekvacationandnotgettingaguideforthearea.Ialwayswenttolesspopularplacesbutisitreallythateasytogetalltheinfoyouneedinclimbinghotspots?Butlikeisaidifthelocalsoranyonewhoisobviouslyresponsibleforputtinguproutesormaintainigcragsfindsawaytomaketheirworkmorepubliclikebooksorwebsitesorwhateveriwouldbethefirsttodonate,helporbuythebooks.Maybeididntsearchedthoroughly:)InmyopinionRockfaxisdoingagoodjobandwhatAlanwroteaboveseemsreasonabletome

Jens

2009020615:33:28

@Michael:ThreemonthsagoIaskedwhetheritwaspossibletopublishananswertotheEgradecritiscismIhadreceivedonyourfirstpage.Ialsoaskedyoutoremovethepictureofmetotheheadline,"messingwiththeEgrade".

YourefusedtodeletemypictureandyousaidIshouldanswerintheforum!Thesearetheplainfacts!

8ainvitedAlanJamestohavehisviewonthefirstpage.Thesearetheplainfacts!

Although,younow,threemonthslaterinvitemetopublish8athoughts,itstilllooksreallybadtoUKclimbing,howyouhandledtheissueofJensLarssenin2008.

ThenewandthingIhavesaidregardingtheEgradewaspublishedsomedaysagoonthefirstpage.MysolutionisthatyoushouldkeeptheEgradesforallgradesthatareonsightedandthenonhardergrades,asupplemantoryredpointgradeshouldbegiven,i.e.5.13bR/Xliketherestoftheworldisgradingtradredpoint.

MichaelRyan 2009020615:44:04

IgiveupJens.

Iseenohopeforyou.

Odub

2009020615:50:08

Thisisallsilly.ThereisNOprintguidebookthatcanbeconstantlyuptodate.Mostareoutofdateafewweeksafterthey'republished.Thatdoesn'tmeanI'mgoingtobuyaguidebookeveryfewweeks.

Everyotherindustryisgoingthroughthesamesituationbecausetheinternethasallowedsuchawealthofinformationtobeavailable.Itstimeforclimberstosuckitupanddealwithit.Ifanything,8aisasmuchapartoftheproblemasRockfax.

TheonlysolutionIcanseeisforeveryareatohaveanonlineguidethatisconstantlyupdatedbythedevelopers,similiartotheoneonwww.redriverclimbing.com.

Otherwise,nobodyintheargumenthasasinglevalidpoint.

jghedge 2009020618:35:01

RockFaxwrites:

"Thereisnowherenearenoughmoneyinguidebooksalestoactuallyfundtheboltingandusuallythispolicyjustresultsinbadguidebooksthatarenotwhattheclimberswant.MarcoTroussierdoesn'trecognisethisasanissueinhispublicemailpostedbyJens."

Ifthere'snomoneyinit,thenwhyisRockFaxdoingit?

Bythislogic,sincethereis"nowherenearenoughmoneyinguidebooksales",itwouldbeOKformetomakeanddistributecopiesoftheRocKFaxguideandsellitformyownprofitafterall,there'snomoneyinit,right?

Thelocalscansimplychargemorefortheirguides,peoplecan(anddo)paymoreforaguidewhentheyknowit'spartoffundingthedevelopmentofthecrag.PublishingguidestoanareawithoutpermissionofthedevelopersisPIRACYplainandsimple.Thereisnomoral/ethicalargumentthattrumpsthehardworkandexpenseputintoboltingacrag.

Davo

2009020618:55:32

TokeepaguidebookupdatedIlikewhattheydidwiththeCUENCAguidebook.Theyhaveawebpageupdatingeverynewroute,updatinggradesandtalkingaboutproblemsorrestrictions.Thatsthewaytogoithink,printabookandpublishupdatesintheweb...

AlanJames 2009020619:07:34

Inreplytojghedge:

Ididn'tsaytherewasnomoneyinguidebooks.

I'llputitanotherway:

...thereisnotenoughmoneyinwritingasingleguidebook,toasinglecrag,tofundtheboltingatthatcrag.Thisalsoappliestoasmallgroupofcrags,asisoftenthecaseinFrance.

Thepointisirrelevantanyway,asisprettymuchacknowledgedbythefactthatMarcoignoresit.

Alan

MarcoTroussier

2009020619:10:10

It'seasytofindsometopos:http://www.ffme.fr/boutique/index.htmProblemaccess.I'veneverseenmisterJingloandmisteJamesonameetinginFrancetopreserveaccesswiththeownerofacliff.theywilltaketherecashand"basta"!Heyoucanalsocopy"friends"andstufflikethat.......FFMEdidworkwithlawyertopreserveaccessoncertaincliffs,whataboutBMC,AVetc....Itcostalottomakeprocess....Thecostofatopowillneverbetehcostofalltheworkthathavebeendonetoboltandpreserveclimbinginsomecliffs.

POD

2009020619:30:47

AlamJameswrote:"Howeverthatdoesn'treallygettotheheartoftheproblem.Eveniftherehadbeengoodlocalguidebooksinthetouristoffice,IwantmybooksbeforeIsetoff,sothatIcanplanmytrip.IwanttobeinspiredbylocalguidesbeforeIchooseadestination.IthinkmanytravellingclimbersmissoutonsomegreatcragsinFrancesimplybecausetheydon'tknowaboutthem."

Iagree,gettingholdofaguidebookbeforethetripisessentialtomakethemostofonesholiday.IfyoucarestronglyenoughaboutthedifficultyofgettingholdofFrenchguidesintheUKthenperhapsyoucouldfollowmyexamplewiththe'SupercrackEditions'guidestovariousareasofCatalunya(Spain).IsimplyputtheauthorsoftheguidesintouchwithaUKbookdistributor(Cordee),andactedas(unpaid)gobetween.Notonlyhavebothpartiesbeenhappywiththeresult,butUKclimberscanperuseorbuybooksaheadofatripfrommanyoftheleadingBritishoutlets.PeteO'Donovan.

StefanoVarnerin

2009020620:15:39

Alan,maybethesectorsthattheguidedon'tcopyaresecretbecouseofaccessproblemoronlybecousethelocalclimbersdon'twontcrowdofclimbersinit.Andidon'tthinkthatthemoneybroughtbytheguideiss#it!ThinkaboutaplacelikeRodellar.......howmanyboltstheyhadputthankstotheguide?Moneyornotwithoutpermissionoftheareadevelopersucan'tdoaguide.Andifudo,4meislikestealingonother'sjob

MarcoTroussier

2009020620:47:43

Stopthinking,"climbing"isjustamerchandise,behonnest,orjustassumeyourposition"makingmoney",makeprofitandgiveas..fortherest....IneverhadtroubletofindatopoinsideandoutsideFrance.(Arapiles,Greece,Austria,Germany,Italy,thalande,Spainetc....since35yearsi'mclimbing)Ithinkhonnestlyihavetobuythetopointhecountryandfromlocaleditor.20isnothingcomparetothecostofatrip,andi'mhappytogivemoneybackforthosewhoboltedtheroutes,because,iboltedmyself,morethan500routesinFrance,italy,Australia,USA,Tawan,Crimea.AndhereisTHEdifferencebetweenus.Doingsomethingforfree.

jghedge 2009020620:48:38

"...thereisnotenoughmoneyinwritingasingleguidebook,toasinglecrag,tofundtheboltingatthatcrag.Thisalsoappliestoasmallgroupofcrags,asisoftenthecaseinFrance."

Please...a$30guidebooktosomeplacelikeStLegercouldeasilysellafewthousandcopies...othersdoalltheworkandyouprofit,justcallitwhatitis,piracyandplagiarism...

9b

2009020621:02:58

Paperisgood,butitcostsandYoucanalwaysprintadigitaltopoYoudownloadedafterhavingpayeditwithyourprepaidcard.Inthatcase,Youpaydirectlylocalauthors/equippers,givingthem100insteadofusual10%ofincomesandnotsomanyproblemstoupdateit.Withmobileweb,privateonlinetoposYoucanenter,readandprint,afterpayment,canhavevideosandinteractionstoo.

MichaelRyan 2009020621:35:47

There'sahelluvaalotofslanderandlibelonhere.

Larsseninitiatedthehatewith,"Accessproblemsdueexternaltopoproductionand"Rockfaxisstealinglocalmoneyandcreatingaccessproblems."onhishomepageblog.

Joeyoushouldknowbetterwithyour"justcallitwhatitis,piracyandplagiarism..."

InmyheartofheartsItoobelievethatthereshouldbe"localguidesforallvisitors"butuntilpeopleliketheFFMEandFrenchguidebookpublishersgettheirshittogetherandproducethebestguidebooksnotjustforlocalsbutforvisitorsyouwillalwaysgetoutoftownerspublishingguidebooks.......

HerethatMarcoTroussier.Quityou'rewhining!

.......theGermanshavebeenprosatitfordecades,andgoodonthem.RememberSunRockbyNicoMailander?.....andPeteLivesey'sFrenchguidebook!

VersanteSudalsodoingasterlingjob,asdoRockfax.EvenFalconintheUSAhaveaguidebooktoEurope.

Selectguidebookstohotareasarehardtofind,butwhentheyareavailableanddonewell,andtheareasisgood,theclimberstheyattractspend1,000'sthatsupportthelocaleconomy.

OKanyonewanttoanswertheslanderandactuallygiveanexampleofaccessproblemcausedbyanoutoftownguidebook!

Anyone?JensyoustatedthatRockfaxhavestolenmoneyandcausedaccessproblems.Eitherputuporshutup!Somechanceeh!

GawdIhateblindlocalism.

Thisargumenthasbeengoingonandonfor20/30yearswithnoresolution.Youcan'tlegislate.

There'soneanswer.Localshavetostepuptotheplateandproducedmultilingualareaguidebooksthataretopquality.Untilthatisdone,andtheyaredistributedwell(PODisdoingsterlingworkthere)outsiderswillcontinuetoproduceguidebooks.

Everythingelseisjustinternethotair.

Mustdash.rantover

Toodles,

Mick

AlanJames 2009020621:54:14

Marcosaid,"I'veneverseenmisterJingloandmisteJamesonameetinginFrancetopreserveaccesswiththeownerofacliff.theywilltaketherecashand"basta"!Heyoucanalsocopy"friends"andstufflikethat.......FFMEdidworkwithlawyertopreserveaccessoncertaincliffs,whataboutBMC,AVetc....Itcostalottomakeprocess"

ButMarco,therearealotofpeoplewhobenefitfromboltsbeingincliffsandnotmanyofthemareattheaccessmeetingslocalbusinessesandoutdoorgearmanufacturersforexample.IattendmeetingsinthePeakDistrictandtrytodomybithere,maybepeoplewhomakeharnessesandropesinsomeotherpartofEuropeattendtheirlocalaccessmeetingsaswell.Weareallverygratefulfortheworkyoudoinyourarea,andmaybeyouaregratefulfortheworkdonebyouraccessteamshereEngland.That'sgoodworkandeveryonewhohasajobintheoutdoorsshoulddotheirbit,Iagree,butyoucan'texpectaropemanufacturertoattendaccessmeetingsforeverycragtheirropeisusedat,andyoucan'texpectaguidebookpublishingcompanywith30publicationstoattendaccessmeetingsforeverycragtheirguidebookscover.However,wearekeentosupportyoureffortsinanywaywecanbydoingwhatwecandonamelypublishingthebestandmostaccurateinformationtoasmanyclimbersaswecanreach.

Alan

jghedge 2009020622:01:07

"Localshavetostepuptotheplateandproducedmultilingualareaguidebooksthataretopquality.Untilthatisdone,andtheyaredistributedwell(PODisdoingsterlingworkthere)outsiderswillcontinuetoproduceguidebooks."

Sayswho?Theguyswhoarepiratingtheguides?

Eitherdosomeoftheworkindevelopingthecrag,orcontributeapercentageofthesalesoftheguidetothepeoplewhodo.Betteryet,onlybuylocalguides,ordowithout.

Montsanthadnoguideforyears,stilldoesn'tasfarasIknow,theroutesdon'tevenhavenames,justnumbers...that'sobviouslyhowthelocalswantitandit'sfinewithme.

Jens

2009020622:06:41

@Michael:Ascanberead,thisisandebatearticleweretheopinionsofMarcoisexpressedandhereadthearticlebeforeitwaspublished.

"MarcoTroussier,fromtheFrenchfederationFFME,hasinformed8a..."

Asyoucanseefromthediscussions,itisinterestingforthecommunitytodiscuss.Furthermore,myopinionisinbetweenAlanandMarcoasIhaveexpressedearlier.

MichaelRyan 2009020622:12:00

Idon'tpublishguidessowhenIsay

"Localshavetostepuptotheplateandproducedmultilingualareaguidebooksthataretopquality.Untilthatisdone,andtheyaredistributedwell(PODisdoingsterlingworkthere)outsiderswillcontinuetoproduceguidebooks."

Thatismyanswertotheperceivedproblem.

Outcompetethecompetition,produceagoodquality,multilingualguidebookandmakesureitisdistributedwell.YouareaYank,youunderstandthat.

UntilthathappensforgetitseeKalymnosasagoodexample.You'dbenutstopublishaguidebooktothatareaastheguideissowelldone.

It'sdeadsimple.Buthardwork.

MichaelRyan 2009020622:15:57

SeemyexamplepostaboveJens.

YouneedsomeonewhocaneditwellandinEnglishbecauseasitstandswhosaidwhatinthat'news'itemisnotclearatall,andmuchofitappearsasstatementoffact.

Firstyouneedanauthorcredit,abyline.Secondyouneedtoclearlymarkquotes.

It'svergingonslanderasitisnow.

jghedge 2009020704:18:12

"Outcompetethecompetition,produceagoodquality,multilingualguidebookandmakesureitisdistributedwell.YouareaYank,youunderstandthat."

Theissueispiracyandplagiarism,notcompetition.Thelocaldevelopersdecidewhattheguideshouldbe,orifthereshouldevenbeone,notyou.It'stheirwork,notyours.

MichaelRyan 2009020708:39:13

AfraidnotJoetheissueistheavailabilityofgoodareaguidebookstopopulardestinationareasandwhopublishesthem.

jghedge 2009020710:05:28

"Selectguidebookstohotareasarehardtofind,butwhentheyareavailableanddonewell,andtheareasisgood,theclimberstheyattractspend1,000'sthatsupportthelocaleconomy."

Uh...no.Thecragsandtheworkdonebythedevelopersattractclimbers,nottheguide.Anditistheheightofarrogancetopresumetodecidethatanareayouhadnothingtodowithdevelopingsuddenly"needs"aRockFaxguide.

"...wearekeentosupportyoureffortsinanywaywecanbydoingwhatwecandonamelypublishingthebestandmostaccurateinformationtoasmanyclimbersaswecanreach."

WhichislikemesayingtoRockFax,"IamkeentosupportyoureffortsinanywayIcan"bymakingmyowncopiesoftheRockFaxguideandsellingitformyownprofit.AfterallAlanandMick,thinkofthebenefittovisitingclimbersandthelocaleconomy!

AlanJames 2009020710:52:38

"WhichislikemesayingtoRockFax,"IamkeentosupportyoureffortsinanywayIcan"bymakingmyowncopiesoftheRockFaxguideandsellingitformyownprofit.AfterallAlanandMick,thinkofthebenefittovisitingclimbersandthelocaleconomy!"

Thatwouldbeillegal.

Youareperfectlyatlibertytomakeyourownguidethough,andsinceyouseemtothinkthatthereisnoeffortrequiredtoproduceaguidefromtheguidebookwriters/publishersthenIwonderwhyyoudon't?

Alan

POD

2009020710:58:47

MickRyanwrote:"Localshavetostepuptotheplateandproducedmultilingualareaguidebooksthataretopquality.Untilthatisdone,andtheyaredistributedwell(PODisdoingsterlingworkthere)outsiderswillcontinuetoproduceguidebooks."

Herewehavethecruxoftheproblem:Rockfaxandtheirilkhavecreatedanenvironmentwheremanyclimbersseeitastheir'right'tohaveuptodateinformationintheirownlanguage.Bythisreckoning,when'local'climbersinFranceandSpaincleanandequipareas,oftenatgreatpersonaleffortandexpense,theymustthensitdownandproduceaprofessionalqualityguidebookin(atleast)fourlanguages.Leavingtopobooksinbarsorprovidinglowtech,lowcostlocalguides,itseems,isnolongersufficient.AndGodhelpthemshouldtheydecidetokeeptheirnewcragsemisecretforawhile.Indeed,suchactionsareoftendeemedasjustificationforthe'professionals'tostepin.

JustasthereareBritslivingonthecontinentwhohavenointentionofeverlearningthelanguageorimmersingthemselvesinlocalculture,sotherearevisitingBritishclimbersforwhomanythinglessthanafullEnglishlanguageguidebooktellingthemexactlywhenandwheretogoandwhichroutestoclimb,simplywon'tdo.Suchclimbersmayhaveonlyoneortwoweeksayeartogoawayandwanttomakethemostofit.FairenoughthisisRockfax'breadandbuttermarket.Inthebesttraditionsofbusiness,theyhaveidentifiedanicheandtakenfulladvantageofit.

Sotheissueisnotwhysuchguidebooksareproducedbuthow.It'samatterofethics,andherethingscanandmustchange.InCatalunya,forinstance,the'SupercrackEditions'guysenterintoagreementswithlocalactivistswhereby,inreturnforinformation,asetpercentage(usuallybetween10and20%)oftheguidebookrunispassedonimmediatelyfollowingpublication,andsoldinlocalshopsandbars.Thiskeepsbothsideshappytheguidebooksbenefitfromintimatelocalknowledgeandtheclimbersgetfundingforfurtherdevelopment.10%onaprintrunof3,000canadduptoalotofbolts!

Rockfaxneedstostronglyconsidersuchmethods.Sure,therewillbelogisticalproblems,butiftheyapplythesameingenuityandprofessionalismtotheseastotheguidesthemselves,thenI'msureitcanbedone.Andifthismeansthatprofitsgodown,eitherchargeyourcustomersmore(explainingwhy)ortakeapaycut!

Whatforeignguidebookwritersandtheircustomersneedtofullyunderstandisthat,toanyoneinvolvedinlocalcliffdevelopmentcleaning,boltingetc.orguideproduction(andit'softenthesamefolks),foran'outside'interesttosimplycomein,andtakeanduseinformationforpersonalprofit,withouttheleastconsultationorrespectforlocalfeelings,isanactionwhichcausestheutmostoffenseandlonglastingbadfeeling.

PeteO'Donovan.

StefanoVarnerin

2009020711:05:07

Okiunderstand,goodhasgiveanimportantmissiontojamesandryan........maketheirownguidofevryplacetheythinkhasn'tagoodoneforthegodofhumanity.Thestupidandevillocaldevelopershasnorighttocomplainifsomeoneelselikerockfaxusetheirhardworkforprofit......ehhmfortherightofthewholeclimbingcommunity.

Thankstorockfax,thegermansandthecrowdofrudeclimbersthatevryhollydaycamelikelocustinourscliff(therockisofevrybody,buttheworkincleaningandboltingnot)takemoreandmorelocaldeveloperstokeepsecretthenewareas.Alsoineverhadtheproblemtofindtheguideofacrag......alsowithoutiticlimbedwellbecouseualwaysfindnicepeopleincragthatexplainuthewholesectorsandgivenicetips!

MichaelRyan 2009020711:30:21

Joesaid:Uh...no.Thecragsandtheworkdonebythedevelopersattractclimbers,nottheguide.

Stefanosaid:Thankstorockfax,thegermansandthecrowdofrudeclimbersthatevryhollydaycamelikelocustinourscliff.

Anareaspopularityisduetomanyfactors.

Thelongtermpopularityofanareaisdeterminedbythequalityoftherockandtheroutes.

Itisfurthermarketedbywebsiteslike8a.nuandtheclimbingmediaasawhole,includingtopclimbersblogs,climbingphotographers,climbingcompanies,videosonVimeo

HeyJoetakethatLynnHillvideodownitsanadvertfortheRedRiverGorge.

8a.nuisbasicallyabigticklistofroutesandcragsfromaroundtheworld,abigadvertforclimbingsdestinationareas.

JensIhopeyouchecktheaccesssituationateachcraginyourdatabase,alsocheckthequalityoftheboltprotectionofeachroutethatyouarepromoting.

Alsohowmuchdoes8a.nucontributetolocalaccessfunds.

Pointispopularityofanareaanditsroutesareduetomanyfactors,notjustguidebooks.8a.nu,photographers,videos,blogsquicklypromoteareasandmakethempopular.

IagreePete,'consultationandrespectforlocalfeelings'isveryimportantwhenanoutsidepublisherpublishesaguidebooktoanarea.Ihopetheyalldothat.

POD

2009020711:54:31

MickRyanwrote:'IagreePete,'consultationandrespectforlocalfeelings'isveryimportantwhenanoutsidepublisherpublishesaguidebooktoanarea.Ihopetheyalldothat.'

Fantastic!AllweneednowisforRockfaxtofullyembracethatsentiment.TheLofotenguidewasapparentlyproducedinsuchawayandtheresultisabrilliantpublication.WiththeproposedFrenchguidebookstheyhaveanexcellentopportunitytocontinuethegoodwork.

PeteO'Donovan.

DavidFalt

2009020712:10:46

FirstChapeautoMarcoforallhisworkthatweallbenefitfromwhenvisitingcliffsinFrance.AndifanyofyouwhothinkMarcois"whining"IsuggestyoujoinFFMEandMarcosunselfishworkforthecommunity.AlsoafterhavingseenfirsthandallthehardworkFFMEisdoingIthinktheydeserveallthecredittheycanget.Iwilltrytojointhemthisyearasmyfrenchnowisok.

I'matruelibertarianandacapitalistwhoinanynormalcasewouldarguethatfreeandunrestrictedcompetitionisthebestforthemarketandtheendconsumerbutwhenitcomestotoposIstronglyagreewithMarco.BYlocal.Supportthelocalworkforaccess.

Itsbullshitthatitshardtofindtoposjustputabitofeffortinandyouwillallfindthem.AlsoIhavetosaythatMarcoisprovidingaservicewaybeyondallexpectations.WhenIwasnewtoChateauVertIgotsomeveryhelpfuladvisefromMarcoandIwasbugginghimquiteallotaboutgradesandnamesofnewroutesetcandhewasalwaysfasttorespondandhelp.NowItsmyfavoritespotandIhavejustboughtmysecondtopoasthefirstonefellapartaftersomehardconsuming.

WhenitcomestotheslanderaccusationsagainstJensIthinkwealljusthavetoacceptthathehashiswaywithwordsandsometimesitallgoeshorriblywrong.HavingSUBSTANTIALexperiencefromlitigationandlegalprocessesIhavelearnedonethinganditseitheryousueoryoushutup.AtaninternetforumorinemailsIthinkwehavetoacceptthatthingsslipoutintheheatofthemomentandthatsjustaculturalthingwithemailsandinternet.SopleasestoptheslanderBSandstayontopic.

MichaelRyan 2009020712:12:56

IagreePete.Wholeheartedly.

Theseguidebooksbyforeignpublishersshouldbedonewithconsultationwithlocalclimbersandaccessorganisations.

Collaborationistheonlyway.

WhatIobjecttooisinflammatoryandslanderoussocallednewsitemsonwebsiteslikethis(whoalsoprofitfromtheworkofnewrouters)whichsetthetoneforadiversivediscussionandpitoneclimberagainstanother.

Amudslingingdiscussionistheresultanddoesnothingtoencouragecollaboration.

ThefellscallhereintheLakes.I'mofftoahighandsnowyridge.

Mick

jghedge 2009020718:54:20

"Theseguidebooksbyforeignpublishersshouldbedonewithconsultationwithlocalclimbersandaccessorganisations.

Collaborationistheonlyway."

Again,arrogance.Ifsomeoneispiratingandplagiarizingyourworkyouareundernoobligationto"collaborate"withthem.Ifthedevelopersdon'twantforeignguidesthenethically(andprobablylegallyaswell)thereshouldn'tbeany.

MichaelRyan 2009020720:00:04

Youweren'tlisteningJoe.

It'sOK,it'scommonontheinternet.

Nooneisplagiarizingorcopying,althoughroutelistsareused,Justastheyareon8a.nu,ontheMountainProject,UKCandothersites.

TakealookatCoronn.comandDR.Topotoo.....youtooJens.

Thisword'developers'isabitsinister.Arepeoplelikemyselfwhoestablishnewroutesandproblemscalled'developers'.

Arecragsconstructionsitesthesedays?

Iofferasolution,youofferslanderandinsults.

It'sOK,it'scommonontheinternet.

BythewayIdon'tbelieveawordthatRussWallingsaidaboutyouo)

Allthebest,

Mick

jghedge 2009020720:19:17

"Youweren'tlisteningJoe.

It'sOK,it'scommonontheinternet."

Indeedparticularlywhenvestedinterestsareinvolved.

AlanJames 2009020809:57:39

"Fantastic!AllweneednowisforRockfaxtofullyembracethatsentiment.TheLofotenguidewasapparentlyproducedinsuchawayandtheresultisabrilliantpublication.WiththeproposedFrenchguidebookstheyhaveanexcellentopportunitytocontinuethegoodwork."

ItisatwowaythingPOD.ThereasonLofotenworkedsowellwasbecauseThorbjornrecognisedthathehasagreatareaandhassomegreatclimbs,andthatwemakegreatguidebooks.WiththeseguidebookstoFrancewearecoveringahugeareaverylightlyratherthanasmallareaindepth.Wehavemadesomegoodcontactsbutalsoencounteredsomestonewallsliketheonesshownonthisthread.Sodon'texpectthatsamelevelofproductionasLofoten,butthenagain,thebookdoesn'tneedit.

Asregardsyourpointsaboutguidebookpublishersenteringintofinancialagreementswithlocalbolters:Doyouthinkthisshouldberestrictedexclusivelytoguidebookproducers,ordootherpeoplewhobenefitfromthepresenceofboltedroutesalsoneedtocontribute?Forexample,didyoudonatetoboltfundswhenyouweremakingyourlivingoutofsellinggeartoclimbers?

AlanJames 2009020809:59:46

Stefanosaid,"Thankstorockfax,thegermansandthecrowdofrudeclimbersthatevryhollydaycamelikelocustinourscliff(therockisofevrybody,buttheworkincleaningandboltingnot)takemoreandmorelocaldeveloperstokeepsecretthenewareas.Alsoineverhadtheproblemtofindtheguideofacrag......alsowithoutiticlimbedwellbecouseualwaysfindnicepeopleincragthatexplainuthewholesectorsandgivenicetips!"

That'ssomenastyxenophobiathereStefano.IamgladtheclimbersintheareasIvisitdon'thavethatattitude.

Alan

AlanJames 2009020810:20:41

Joesaid:"Theissueispiracyandplagiarism,notcompetition."

YouareveryfreewiththewordplagiarismJoe.

Thisisplagiarismhttp://www.rockfax.com/images/i.php?id=27

Alan

StefanoVarnerin

2009020811:09:44

Ifxenophobiameanbehangrywhenuseeamazingplacesbeenruinbycrowdofidiot(withbeautifullguide!)thathavenorespect4nature,yesi'mxenofobic!Irememberthewaymisjapeclookslikeafterhollydayperiods........itseemsadump!AndolsoirememberwhathappentothebeautifullcragofPodpec,close4therudnessofsomeidiotsthatparkcarsinprivateproprietateanddon'trespecttheinhabitantsofthesmallvillage.Weallseehowbetterisforthepreservationofthecragifwedon'tdoaguideoftheplace,butonlysaytofriendswhereitis.SpotlikeBaratro,wichishardtocallsecretafter10years,hassurvivedthankstothisstrategy,andalsowithoutaguidehundredspeopleshaveclimbinthiscave.Alotofamazingcliffcan'thaveaguide,becouseofovercrowningproblemthatcancausetheendofit.Peoplefromabroaddon'tnowalltheproblemsofanarea,butthelocaldo!Sotheonlyway4aforeigntomakeaguideistoworkveryveryclosewiththelocaldevelopers.Andiftheyareagainstaguide,uhavenorighttopubblishone.

BruceMarsh

2009020811:21:07

Ihaven'thadtimetoreadalloftheabovesomaybeI'mrepeatingsomethinghere.

DuringmytimelivinginFranceI'veencounteredsomeincrediblybadguidebooksandRockfaxcomingovertoraisethebarabitisgreatnews.

EachtimeIgosportclimbingIamveryawareofandgreatlyappreciatetheexcellentworkthatthelocalactivistsandrouteequippershaveputin.Iwouldhatetothinkthattheywouldloseoutonafinancialcontributiontotheirexpensesifpeoplestartedpurchasingrockfaxguidesratherthantheirown.Havingsaidthat,inmanyareaswheretheguidebooksareunbelievablybadlymade,IwouldmuchratherbuyaguideorRockfaxqualityandpaysomeextramoneydirectlytoaboltfundortothecragdevelopers.

IfRockfaxcouldestablishsuchasystem(maybetheyalreadyhavetosomeextent?)thentheywouldnodoubtgetmuchmorehelpfromthelocalsandremainunquestionablyonthemoralhighgroundsincetheywouldbepayingforaproportionoftheboltsontheroutestheyaredescribing.

Onemechanismforthiscouldbetoadd20%tothepriceoftheguidesandensurethatatleastthisproportionoftheirturnovergoestoacentralboltingexpensesfund(hostedbytheFFME,orrockfaxthemselves?).

Peoplewhohaveboltedroutesinacertainareacouldapplytothisfundforcompensationfortheboltingcostsandeffortiftheirrouteappearsinarockfaxguide.Theamountofcompensationreceivedwoulddependonthenumberofcopiesoftheguidebookthathavebeensold.

Iwouldbealothappierwithmyrockfaxguidebookpurchase(evenifitwas20%moreexpensive)ifIknewthatmymoneywasdirectlycontributingtotheboltingofthecragsthatisdescribes.

Inmanyareas,anaddedbenefitforthecragdeveloperswouldbethattheycanspendmoretimedoingwhattheyaregoodatclimbingandnewrouting,andlesstimeonstrugglingtowriteauseableguidebook.

Bruce

DavidAtchisonJones

2009020811:50:30

HiBruce,nicetoseeyourpostingitbringsupafewpointsthatasapublisherIcanshowhowthingsdon'twork.Whenyoupublishbooks,orevensellanygoodsinashop,itallworksonmarkupcommissionthatislifefullstop.Soifyouadd1eurotoabookatcost,thenyouaddaround6extraeurostoshipping,finance,shopcommission,distributorcommissionandofcoursethatlovelyTVAtax.Henceitisjustaboutthemostludricouswayoftryingtoraiseanysortofrevenuesinceitallgetscreamedoff.Ifyoucansimplyadd1euroatthesalespoint perfectofcourse.ThatisthereforeuptotheretailersIamsuretheFrenchgovernmentwouldstillrequireTVAthough.

DavidFalkmadeanicepointinthankingMarcoTforaccesswork,andIwouldjustliketoaddtothat.

Asapureclimber.MytypicalinstanceisclimbingintheVerdon.IrefusetobuyanotherguidebookIhave3ontheshelfalreadyandcertainlywon'tneedanotheroneinmylifetime.However,IalwayshaveacollectionforeachdaythatIclimbtherewithfriendsandwegenerallygive5euroseachtotheboltfundatthePVert.Itisamazinghowquicklyyougetupto100euros,andithelpsagainstthedecimationoftherainforestetc.IfIamhonesttoo,IsimplybinmosttoposthatIbuy,moneypaidtowhoeveranddone.Iwouldrathermoreplaceshaveaequipmentfundingpoint.Printingprettyawfultoposthatyousendstraightintotherecyclingbinisnotthatagoodideareally.

Ithinkthatalotofclimbersaremorethanhappytogivemoneytoaboltfundsowhybotherlinkingittoanythinganyway?

9b

2009020812:23:20

@David:toletclimbersmakeafreedonationtolocalbolters,publisherscanputasimpleDONATEbutton intheirwebsite.

POD

2009020818:57:39

AlanJameswrote:"Forexample,didyoudonatetoboltfundswhenyouweremakingyourlivingoutofsellinggeartoclimbers?"

IfpurchasingmyownHilti(800Euros),bolts,hangersandloweroffsonaregularbasis,andpersonallyequipping(aftercleaning,pathclearing,etc.)newclimbscounts,thentheanswerisYES!

Ifprovidingphotographsandtranslationsfreeofchargetolocalguidebooksinmyarea,ofwhichagoodproportionofsalesgoesdirectlytoboltfundingfornewprojectscounts,thenagain,theanswerisYES!

Asforbusinessesinvolvedinnonguidebookactivitiesbeingequallyresponsibleforboltfundcontributions,Ibegtodiffer.Rockfaxprofitdirectlyfromthisactivity.Notonlythat,butyourcurrentmethodsofinformationgatheringeffectivelyuselocalactivistsandrecordersasunconsulted,unpaidresearchers.

Moneyaside,therealissueisoneofethics.IfagroupoflocalclimbersFrench/Spanish/Italian,whatever,decidetocleanandequipasuperbnewarea,andhandoutinfoinwhichevermannertheychoosethenvisitingclimbersshouldbegratefulforthat,andstopcomplainingthattheguidebookis"hardtofind"or"notuptothestandardoftheRFguides".

Itmakesmeutterlysicktoreadcommentslike"thelocalsneedtogettheirshittogetherandproduceproperguidebooks".Whythef...shouldthey?Isn'titenoughthatthey'vedonethePROPERhardworkinthefirstplace?

PeteO'Donovan

jghedge 2009020819:17:49

OKMick,nowcondescendinglytellPetehe'snotlistening...betteryetjustignorewhathe'ssayingandpersonallyattackhim

MichaelRyan 2009020819:22:24

Peteisn'tslanderingormakingfalseclaimsaboutplagiarism.Consequentlyheislistenedtowithrespect.

Imaynotagreewithentirelybuthedoeshavesomegoodpoints.

DavidFalt

2009020819:46:35

@RyanandRockfax

Idon'tknowwhatRockfaxisandwouldnotbuyitasIpreferlocaltoposbutI'msurethereisamarketoutthereforyoutodevelopandyoushoulddothat.Butasallbusinessitneedsadaptationtothelocalmarketconditions.ResponsibilityisonekeywordandRespectanother.

YouaresokeenonthisslandertalkIalmostthinkyouareaambulancechasinglawyerbutIknowbettersoIwilldeferfromgoingdownthatroad.ButIgettrulypissedatyoulackofrespectfortheworkofFFME.Ifyoudon'tseethevalueofwhattheyaredoingandwhatotherlocalsaredoingforusTHECOMMUNITYIsuggestyoustayhomeintheUKandorgotoLofoten.

Itisyouasabusinessownerwhohastofigureoutaresponsiblewaytiintegrateyourbusinessintothelocalcommunity.

MichaelRyan 2009020820:29:10

IhavefullrespectfortheFFMEDavid,asIdofortheBMCandtheUS,AccessFund.

TogiveyousomebackgroundofmyexperiencesoyoucanseewhereIamcomingfrom.....

IworkandhaveworkedcloselywiththetheBMCandtheUS,AccessFund.I'veworkedcloselyonaccesswiththeBureauofLandManagementandtheUSForestServiceinbothBishop,CaliforniaandLasVegas,Nevada.

I'veestablishedsportroutesintheUK,Spain(Siurana),andtheUSA:andestablished100'sofnewboulderproblems,and'developed'severalnewareasthatarenowverypopular.

IhavepublishedandauthoredguidebooksintheUKandintheUSA(Rumney,CathedralandWhitehorse,Rifle,LasVegasandBishop).

IhavewrittenseveralarticlesonAccess,andproducedpostersandorganisedaccessevents.

Ihavealsohavehadmyworkrippedoff:ToposwhichIworkedonforhundredsofhourshavebeencopiedanddistributed.RouteliststhatIoriginallyresearchedanddocumentedforthefirsttime,havebeenusedbyotherguidebookauthorsandpublishers.

WhatIdoobjecttoistheblunderbussapproachofMarcoTroussier,yetrecognisehishardworkforaccess.Distributingemailsliketheonepublishedby8a.nuthatinitiatedthisdiscussioniscounterproductivetoasatisfactoryresolution.

Sowhatisthesolutiontoforeignguidebookpublishersproducingguidebookstodestinationareas?

Thatiswhatthefocusshouldbeon.

Cheers,

Mick

AlanJames 2009020821:13:29

PODsaid"IfpurchasingmyownHilti(800Euros),bolts,hangersandloweroffsonaregularbasis,andpersonallyequipping(aftercleaning,pathclearing,etc.)newclimbscounts,thentheanswerisYES!Ifprovidingphotographsandtranslationsfreeofchargetolocalguidebooksinmyarea,ofwhichagoodproportionofsalesgoesdirectlytoboltfundingfornewprojectscounts,thenagain,theanswerisYES!"

Ah,butthatisPeteO'Donovandoinggoodwork.I'vedoneallthatboltinginthePeak,Accessmeetings,contributionstoboltfundsandaccessfundsthatishowitshouldbe.Butitiscompletelydifferentfromacompanydonation.Imaginetheconsequencesofa50plevybeingappliedtoeverychalkbagyoumade?

PODsaid"Asforbusinessesinvolvedinnonguidebookactivitiesbeingequallyresponsibleforboltfundcontributions,Ibegtodiffer.Rockfaxprofitdirectlyfromthisactivity.Notonlythat,butyourcurrentmethodsofinformationgatheringeffectivelyuselocalactivistsandrecordersasunconsulted,unpaidresearchers."

Alloutdoorbusinessesbenefithugelyfromthepresenceofaccessagreementsandbolts.Soyou'dsellasmanychalkbagsthenifallthecragswereclosedandtherewasnobolting?Youmake(made)yourlivingoutofclimberstothesameextentasme.

PODalsosaid"Itmakesmeutterlysicktoreadcommentslike"thelocalsneedtogettheirshittogetherandproduceproperguidebooks".Whythef...shouldthey?Isn'titenoughthatthey'vedonethePROPERhardworkinthefirstplace?"

Wellifitisn't"PROPERhardwork"thenanyidiotcandoit.

hmmm...talkingofrespect,and'offense"....!

Alan

StefanoVarnerin

2009020822:18:53

MichaelRyansaid"Sowhatisthesolutiontoforeignguidebookpublishersproducingguidebookstodestinationareas?"RESPECTTHEWILLOFLOCALDEVELOPERS!!!ANDIFTHEYGIVEUTHEPERMISSIONOFPUBBLISHAGUIDEUMUSTGIVETHEMAPARTOFTHEPROFIT!IfindAlanwordsoffensive.Idon'tthinkuevennowwhatmeanrespect,soican'timmaginuaskingtolocalclimbersifucanusetheirwork.........andalsoboltsinthepeak..............bhaineverbeetobutthisisthefirsttimethatihearofboltsinthetradparadise

POD

2009020822:35:35

AlanJamessaid:"PODalsosaid"Itmakesmeutterlysicktoreadcommentslike"thelocalsneedtogettheirshittogetherandproduceproperguidebooks".Whythef...shouldthey?Isn'titenoughthatthey'vedonethePROPERhardworkinthefirstplace?"

Wellifitisn't"PROPERhardwork"thenanyidiotcandoit.

hmmm...talkingofrespect,and'offense"....!

Alan"

Inthis,andearlierposts,wehaveasummaryoftheRockfaxattitude.Whenpresentedwithideasaimedatachievingclosercollaborationwithlocalactivists,theydeflectallrelevantquestionsandinsteadresorttopersonalattacksonindividuals.

TheplainfactisthatRockfaxhasthesamemodusoperandiasanyotherpirateguidei.e.minimalinvolvementoflocals=maximumprofitsforRockfax.

PeteO'Donovan.

AlanJames 2009020822:41:47

RubbishPOD.TheonlyinsultsinherehaveallbeendirectedatRockfax.Iwouldlovetoworkwithlocals alwayshave,andalwayswill.

Youcompletelylostthisargumentwithyour'properwork'comment.Howshitwasthat!!!!

Alan

Jens

2009020823:14:05

@POD:Itotallyagreewithyou.ItmakesmesicktoreadalltheseattacksbytheRockfaxguysandInowcanundderstandhowfrustratedMarcoTroussierwereinthefirstplacewhenhetriedtocommunicateovertheissue.

Ithinkweshoulddrawaveryclearlinebetweenlocaltopoproducerswhopresenttheirworkmainlyinordertoinviteclimbers,

andtheoneswhomainlyareproducingtopos,inordertomakemoney.Clearly,itisthecapitalistswhoarecreatinglocalaccessproblems.

Idothinkweshouldoptforhavingtopoproducerswhoareinthemiddleofthesebothsides!

MichaelRyan 2009020823:42:59

ThetoneofthisdiscussionwassetbyyouJens...andyoucontinue.

Intheinitialreportonyournewspagetherewerethefollowingslanderousandinflammatorycomments.

"Rockfaxisstealinglocalmoneyandcreatingaccessproblems.Moralityagainstprofit,chooseyourcamp"

Thishasbeenfollowedbyinsultsbyindividualposters.

Youinflamepeoplewithyourrhetoric,wildassumptionsandfalsehoods.

Ifyoustatetheissueclearlyandobjectively,apositivedialoguewillresult.

Inthiscaseithasn'tandinfactthisisthewrongplaceforaconstructivedialogue.

Firstoffalloutofcountryguidebookpublishers,whopublishforeigndestinationguidesshouldbecontacted.

ThenperhapstheFFMEandothernationalclimbingbodiescandrawupacodeofpractice,andthatcouldincludedonationstolocalaccessandreequippingorganisations,andconsultationswithindividualsandorganisationsonaccessconcernsandwhichcliffsshouldstayunpublished.

Atthesametime,asIhaverepeatedtimeandtimeagain,thebestwaytomakeitcommerciallyunviableforforeignpublisherstopublishisforlocalsinanareatopublishamultilingualselectareaguidebook.

Notonlythattheywouldbenefitfinanciallyfromthesaleofalocallyproducedareaguidebook.

Howsimpleisthat?

Mick

grigri

2009020905:20:34

Itshardtobelievethatthepeopleinthisthreadrepresentthecognoscentioftheeuropean(UKincluded)climbingpress.Yousoundlikeabunchofsquabblingpreschoolkids!

MonsieurTroussierhasaveryvalidpoint,thanksforpostingupthelinktoaccesstoposonepositivepostatleast.Theideaofhavingareawebsiteswherebirdnesting,parkingandotheraccessissues,aswellasnewrouteinfo,canbeupdatedisalsoaverygoodone.

Rockfaxguys:buckup!Ifyoudontcontributetothelocalfederations/developersyoubloodywelloughtto!!Stoptryingtodiverttheblameontoothertopoproducers(eg:MikaelCorronmakesapointofonlydoingtoposoftouristdestinations).

Workingtogetherinsteadofsquabblinglikeabunchofimmaturebratsistheonlywaytheseproblemscanbeaddressed.Climbinginothercountriesisnotarightitisapriviledge,respectforthelocalsisofparamountimportanceinourevershrinkingworld.

MarcoTroussier

2009020908:36:52

Youlookingatcliffincludingthosewithenveronementalproblemsclickhere:http://www.ffme.fr/site/FALAISE_index.phpButyouwon'tfind"secretspots"whereproblemsarereallytough.Youwanttobuyatopoclickhere:http://www.ffme.fr/boutique/index.htmendofthepage.Youwon'tfind"secretspots",andsomeothertoposinprocesslikeTarn,Dourbieetc...cragsaroundverdon,cragsaroundSisteronarecurrentlyinprocess,don'tpublish,don'tcopy.....CLIMBGLOBAL,BUYLOCALTOPOS!

AlanJames 2009020910:39:26

IwillreiteratethatRockfaxrecognisesthecontributionthatboltingmakestoclimbingareasandthehardworkdonebylocaldevelopers.IntheUKwedonatesignificantamountsofmoney(probablymorethananyothercompany,certainlyrelativetoturnover)towardsboltingandaccess.WearemorethanhappytoconsiderdothisinFranceifsuchacentralfundcanbefound,howeverwewouldlikeittobepartofawiderinitiativethatbringsinallcompanieswhobenefitfromthepresenceofboltsandgoodaccesstocrags.Failingsuchaninitiativewewouldstillbehappytodiscussthepossibilitieswithlocaldevelopers.

WerecognisethevitallyimportantissueofaccessandwilldoourutmosttosupportandcommunicategoodaccessinformationtoclimbersfromalloverEurope.Bypublishingaguidebookthatintroducesmanycragstononlocalclimbersforthefirsttimewehopetohelpspreadtheloadofclimbersawayfromtheoverpopularcrags.Wewouldwelcomeapproachesfromanyclimbersconcernedaboutaccessinformationtotheircrags.

RockfaxisdedicatedtoproducingthebestqualityclimbinginformationtoareaalloverEuropeandwearecontinuallystrivingtoimproveourcoverageandmethodsofcoverage.Allourbooksareresearchedfromamultitudeofsources.Wealsoareverykeentoworkwithlocalactivistswhereappropriateandwillhappilyenterintoarrangementswithlocalclimberswhicharemutuallybeneficialforbothparties.

ThisismylastwordonthesubjectonthisthreadsinceIfeelIcannolongercontributeonaforumrunbysomeonewhohasapersonalvendettaagainstmyselfandmycompany.AnyonewhowishestocontinuethedebateiswelcometomoveitovertoUKClimbing.comwhereIpromiseIwillnotremovepostsbasedontheircontentbeingantiRockfaxorUKC.

Thanksforallthepositivecontributions.

AlanJames,RockfaxandUKClimbing.com

grigri

2009020911:35:37

@AJImgladtohearRockfaxdoesindeedcontributetothecause.IhopethatfurtheriniativescanbeforgedtobridgetheageolddividebetweenFranceandBritain.

Thisisadifficulttopic,I,myselfamaguideauthoranddeveloper,andassuchwouldobviouslypreferpeopletolearnaboutourcragfromus.Butonlineguidescaninformandattractvisitorstoanareatheywouldnothaveheardofbeforewhichisgreatifthelocalsactuallywantvisitors.Distributionthroughthenetisstillfraughtwithissuesaspeoplecaneasilycopyguidesandgetawaywithouteverpayingforit badfortheauthors.Lockedpdfsolutionsareavailablebutonecanstillprintmultiplecopies.Sohowtogettheinfooutthere(ifyouwantitoutthere!)?Printedbooksremainthesafestwaytoprotectcopyright.Itsoundslikethereisagreatmarketfortranslatorstohelplocalauthorsproduceprintedguidesinmorelanguages.@M.Troussier:Perhapsthisisabusinessopportunity?

Jens

2009020911:44:56

Iassume,MarcoTroussierandtherestoftheclimbingcommunityincludingmyselfareveryhappywiththaanswerofhowRockfaxwillworkinthefuture.

Thismeansinfactthatitwasagoodideatopublishthenewsinthefirstplace.

However,howAlanJamescanfinishhisverypositivewithyetanotherpersonalattackisjustverysad.Thelastsentencespeakforitself,"IpromiseIwillnotremovepostsbasedontheircontentbeingantiRockfaxorUKC".Asyouareevenhavensuchthoughtinyourmindissad!

IhaveverypositivetowardsRockfax,"SomeofmyclimbingtripsisadirectresultasofaRockfaxguideandIhaveneverbeendisappointedofwhattheyhaveproduced."

IhavealsoinvitedAlanandpublishedaresponsedirectelyonthefirstpage.

HaeMeS

2009020911:56:58

Beingabigconsumerofbothlocaland'foreign'guidebooks,letmeshedalightonhowI(asaconsumer)feelaboutguidebooks.I'vegotabout200differentguidebooksathome,soI'mnotentierlycluelessonthesubjectofbuying/usingthem.

Somewordsonusefullness:SayIwanttospendaprolongedholidayin(acertainpartof)France/Spain/Italy.I'mnotsureyetwheretogo,butwouldliketosampleanumberofdifferentarea's.AguidebookliketheonesproducedbyRockfax,JingoWobbly,LoboEdition,[theAndalusiaTopo],orVersanteSudiswhatIneedinordertoorientateandgettotheareainthefirstplace.I'llalwaysbuythelocalguidebookwhenavailableandfindable.Whichisoftenaproblem!Localsmightknowhowtofindthem,butforeignersoftendon't.

Somewordsaboutavailability(inFrance):Localguidebookpublishersoftendonotunderstandhowtodistributetheirguidebooks.TakeforinstancethenewTarnguidebook,publishedbijtheCAFMillau.Tryandgoogle[tarntopocafmillau].Doesitleadyoutotheguidebook?No.TryandGoogle[climbingAvignon].LeadsmestraighttoJingoWobbly.Getthepoint?Anotherexample:whenIGooglefor[escaladeventoux],thefirsthit(GooglesearchininHolland)leadstoaDutchshopsellingtheJingoWobblyguidebook.NomentionofthenewguidebooktoStLegeronthefirstpageoftheGoogle_search.

Inowoftheexistenceofhttp://www.soescalade.com/inAvignon.InowIcanbuylocalFrenchguidebooksfromthemonlineorintheirshop.Butnoteverybodydoes,right?It'snotthatstrangethatsomeonenewtotheareaandwantingtohaveinformationaboutwheretoclimbbeforehe/shegetsthereisgoingtobuyaRockfax/JingoWobblyguidebookwithfarbetteravailability/onlinepresentation.Andtakethetroublemostpeoplehavewithforeignlanguages.Ifpresentedwiththechoicebetween2guidebooks,bettertaketheEnglishone.

WhyblaimagoodproductionliketheRockfaxguidebooks,withaveryinformativeinternetsitetobackuptheguidebookforbeingsuccesfull?Asthoseguidebooksareoftenfaraheadoflocalguidebooksintermsofcontent,quality,availabilityandinformationaboutthemontheinternet,Ihavethefeelingthatthosecritizisingaresimplyjealousoftheirsuccess.Thisishowoursocietyworks.Weliketobuythebestproductsandbuythemfromcompaniesthatmaketheprocessofbuingeasyforus.

Ontheotherside,somelocalguidebooksmadeby(forinstancethosemadebythelatePierreRouzo)arelovelyworksofart,withgreatattentiontodetail.Ialwaysbuythemandhopeeverybodyappreciatingtheworkoflocalequiperswilldothesame.ButIalsohopethatinsteadofbeingnarrowmindedandunabletounderstandtheneedsof(northernEuropeans?)visitingclimbers,peoplelike(forinstance)MarcoT(typicalreactionofsomeonefromsouthernEurope?)willacceptthewaythingsworkintherealworldandwelcomeguidebookslikeRockfaxandacknowledgetheirmerits.

HaeMeS

p.s.Jens:tryandrunthissiteabitmorelikeaprofessionaleditor/journalist.Audiaturetalterapars.WhenMTinforms8aaboutanissuelikethisone,betheonetogoroundaskingquestionstothoseinvolved.Thenanalyseandwriteathoughtfularticleabouttheissue.Thatswhatdifferentiatesagoodjournalistfromarandominternetbloggerwithanillinformedrant.

abcclimbing.com

2009020912:01:59

wellwellwellThankstoPeteO'Donovanwhohadsomeverygoodpointsinthisdiscussionandbroughtittoawaymoreconstructivelevel.Ifhefeelsseriousaboutit,thanthelastpostofAlanJamesdoespleasemealot.Iwouldlovethatthepersonsinvolvednowcouldworkonaconstructivesolutionoftheproblemsencountred.Namelythefoundraisingtogivebackthedeveloperssomeoftheworktheyareputtingin.Andevenifitwouldbequitesymbolical(youwon'tbeabletogivedevelopersthemoneybackforthetimeandnoteventhemoneyinvestedin100routes).Secondly,delicateand/or"secret"areasshouldstaysecretifthedeveloperswhishso.Butwhotakesthedecision,ifseveralbolted?Bytheway,Iuserockfax and/orother"general"guidebooksalottodecidewheretogoandbeforeIgo.ThelocalguidebooksarenormalymorecompleteandIalwayspurchasethemtoo.

abcclimbing.com

2009020912:15:34

Anideaifwearetalkingaboutaccessproblems...Ireallylike8aforthedatabaseitisandalargeamountofrockclimbers(andthereforeknowledge)itrepresents.Wouldn'titbegreat,ifon8aorONEotherhomepage,therewouldbecentralinformationaboutaccessproblems/restrictions/...AND,therecouldandshouldaswellbealinktoanhomepage,thatprovidesthenewestinformationonthismatter.ASWELL,onecouldextendthisfunctionwithlinkstohomepagesand/orplaceswhereyoucanpurchasethetopos(asitisoftendifficultwithlocalonestoencounterthem).Thiswouldbesomeworkforthewebmaster,butthecommunitycouldfillinthedata.Onthelongrun,everybodywouldwinbyeasilyencounteringtheinformationoralinktoit.

MichaelRyan 2009020914:50:23

JensLarssensaid:>"However,howAlanJamescanfinishhisverypositivewithyetanotherpersonalattackisjustverysad."

Jens,onyournewspageyouaccusedAlanofcausingaccessproblemsandbeingathief.

That'snotjustsad,itsdownrightdisgracefulandslanderous.Yououghtbeashamedofyourself.

TakenoteofwhatHaeMeSsaid:

"p.s.Jens:tryandrunthissiteabitmorelikeaprofessionaleditor/journalist.Audiaturetalterapars.WhenMTinforms8aaboutanissuelikethisone,betheonetogoroundaskingquestionstothoseinvolved.Thenanalyseandwriteathoughtfularticleabouttheissue.Thatswhatdifferentiatesagoodjournalistfromarandominternetbloggerwithanillinformedrant."

AndJens,goodeffortonyourdecisiontoincludeaccessinformationinyourcragdatabase.

Mick

AlbertCortes

2009020915:02:05

Lastyear,theformerownerofMontanejosRefugio,publishedaguide.Almostatthesametimeotherpeopleproducedanotherone.Ernesto,theformerownerclaimedthattopotobebannedanditwenttotrial.Lastnovember,aspanishcourtpassedsentenceagainsttheMontanejostopoproducedbythosepeoplethatsimplymadethetoposhimselvesbutneverboltedorhelpedMontenejosinanywaytodevelopit,asweknowitnowadays.Thecourtorderedthetopotobetakenawayfromallbookshopsanda30000eurofinetotheproducers.

Thesearefacts.

Now,whenIgetholdofthefinalpartofthatsentence,Iwilltranslateandpostithere.

Jens

2009020916:02:14

@Michael:IhavenotaccusedAlanofanything.However,IhavequotedMarcoTroussierwhohadsomenegativethingstosayaboutRockfax.Tosumup,wecaseethatAlanhasanewwiewontheissue,comparedtothemailconversationhehadwithMarco,andthatisgood.

@Albert:Iguess,thismeansthatRockfaxoranyotherexternaltopoproducer,infact,areatriskinaspanishcourt.

DavidAtchisonJones

2009020916:44:25

HiAlbert,IwaswonderinghowlongitwouldtakeonthistopicforourgoodfriendErnestotoenterthearena.Justtokeepeveryoneelseinformed,hesinglehandedlydevelopedanentireareaonhisownandwithoutandassistancefromanyone.Apartfrombeingaverygoodclimberhewasacompleteeccentric.Hepublishedhistoposondarkredpaper"sonobastardcouldcopythem."Honestitstrue!

OnebigconundrumwithFranceisthattheFFMEdoessecurefundingforprofessionalpaidclimberstoequipcliffs andalmostentirelyatthelowerendofthegradessinceschoolsandclubsusethecliffs.Thisisallgovernmentmoneypaidbythetaxpayers.Nowconsider:Mostofthenewcliffsbeingdevelopedonlyreallycontainroutesof7bupwards.Thereforehavingageneralcollectionfundishardlygoingtoappealtothoseclimbinginthegrade5or6'swhyshouldtheysponsorroutesandcliffstheynevergoto.It'sgoingtobeabigquestionfor8aclimberstoanswer.Idoubttherearetoomanygrade5climberssurfingthissitetoletthisfeelingbeknownbutIwouldnotbesurprisedifthefeelingwerequitestrong.

Ifontheotherhandyoumakecollectionsfortheboltsattheactualdevelopmentcliffsthemselveswherethe7a8croutesare,theclimbersgetachancetotalktotheequippersandlettheirfeelingsknownonthestyleofboltingetc,plusyouexactlytargetthepeopleclimbingthoseroutesinthosegrades.Simplicityisusuallyaverygoodanswer.

MichaelRyan 2009020917:26:15

AlanJamesofRockfaxhasnotchangedhispositionatanystageduringthedebatehecameinsayingexactlywhathesaidwhenheleft.

SononewviewfromRockfax.

AasimilarlegalsituationtotheoneAlbertoCortesmentionswasdroppedintheUKin2001becausebothpartiescametotheconclusionthatseekingalegalsolutionwasnotinthebestinterestsofclimbers.

Thishassubsequentlybeenprovenbeyonddoubtwithbothpartiesgoingontoproducebetterpublicationsthaneverinthesamecompetingareas.

Mick

9b

2009020917:34:02

@grigri:itstruethatonecanprintmultiplecopiesoflockedpdf,but,really,printedbooksarenotsafer:YoucanmakephotocopiesandwithascannerdigitalizethemandprintasmanycopiesasYouwant.Andthereisemuletoo...

Internetisgoingtobemoreandmore"allfree"andthereissomething"betterthanfree"too...

AlbertCortes

2009020917:50:21

IntheSpanish"case"therehasbeenNOAGREEMENTbetweenbothparties,sothe"ilegalguide"hasbeenwithdrewfromsellinganddistributing,itseemsabigdifferencetothesituationintheUKthatMickRyanmentions.

BrianRunnells

2009020917:51:48

Themainnewsarticlestillreadsasthough8aistheonesayingthatRockfaxisstealingfromlocaldevelopers. Wouldittakethatlongtoexercisesomepunctuationandeditingtomakethingsmoreclear?

Pillard 2009020918:04:49

Heyall,

Idon'twanttojumpintothedebate,butjustsaythatunlikeseveralofyouguys,IreallyappreciatedthewayJenshandledthiscase.Hesimplyreportedsomeoneelse'sconcerns,which,oncereinterpretedwouldhavecompletelylosttheirsubstance.

Somepeopleherelikethepoliticallycorrect,probablytoprotecttheirbusinesses.I,asaclimber,liketrueopinions.whichincidentallyareoftennotverycompatiblewithbusiness...Pleasedon'tletpersonnalinterestsdestroythespiritofclimbing!

Onanothernote,Idontbelievethatitisveryusefulltomakefalseclaimsandtogivemoralitylessons:everythingdependsonone'sopinion:Regardingthisnews,andtomyopinionJenshasnothingtobeashamedof(unlikeseveralothers...)

GoodjobJens...andgoodclimbingtoeveryone!:)

Jens

2009020918:25:06

@Brian:Idonotunderstandyourproblemofunderstanding.WhenIreadanewspaperandtheyqoutesomebody,youcandoitthesamewayIdidit.

"...,accordingTroussier.Theclimbingcommunity..."InSwedentheisalwaysusedforqoutes.

@Pillard:Thanksalot.Ihaveprobablymade1000postintheforumandIamgladthatyounoticedthatIhaveneversaidanythingnegativeaboutanotherperson.Ialwaystrytodiscussthesubject.Thesadthingisthatprobably,40%ofthepostsintheforumhavesomekindofpersonalinsultsormoralitylessons.Ihopethatasyoubroughtitup,thispercentagewouldbereducedinthefuture!

jghedge 2009020918:35:07

FromDesniveltoday:

http://www.desnivel.com/object.php?o=18116

"pirateosinescrpulos","puroplagiodeguaspublicadas"

Notburiedinthearticlemindyou,butinthetitle.

StillunaddressedinthisthreadbyRockFaxiswhetheritwill"ceaseanddesist"guideproductionifthelocaldeveloperstellthemto.I'mstillgettingtheimpressionthatRFthinksithastherighttogoaheadandpublishifitcannotcometoanyagreementwiththelocals,whichsurelyinmanycasesitwillnotget,duetoRF'spastbusinesspractices.Ipersonallydon'tthinkchargingextraforaRFguidetocompensatethedeveloperswillworkastheRFguidesarealreadytooexpensiveasitis,andanyoneconcernedabouttheissuesthatchargingmoresupposedlyaddresseswillsimplydotheethicalthingand"climbgloballybutbuylocaltopos"asMarcosays.

"Hayotroscasosenlosqueelplagiooelpuroparasitismovaaltiempoqueeltrabajodecampo.UnejemploconocidoeseldelasfamosasRockFax."

Ouch.

grigri

2009020918:51:44

@9b,averyinterestingarticlethanks.Istillfeelthatthedifficultyofcopyinghardcopy(iestandingatthescannerallafternoon)atleastactsasadetterenttowouldplagarisers.Writingrecognitionsoftware(fordigitalizing)isnotperfectandstillrequiresalotofediting,thiswillchangesoonbutfornowthereisstillsomesecurityinhardcopy.Thereisalsolotsofsoftwarearoundfor'unlocking'pdf'sandretrievingthedata.Asfaras'generatives'areconcernedwehavetriedtoaddressthisbyofferinganemailupdateservisetothosewhopurchaseourbook.Theupdateswontmakesensewithoutthebook,andthebookwithouttheservicesoongoesoutofdate.Wecandiscussthisfurtheron9bifulike.

Withregardtothisdebate:Inthefutureelectronicguidescouldofferaddedvaluegenerativessuchasrouteupdatesandinformationservices(access,newaccomodationplacesetc),translationintoyourhomelanguage(bigmarket),streamliningoftopotoreflectyourgraderange(nounnecesaryinfo),directpaymenttodeveloperswithaspecificationofwhichgradesyouwouldliketoseemoreof,discountsonguidesfromthesame(oraffiliated)productionhouse,etc,etc.Ifyoustarttothinkaboutthereareendlessopportunitiesforcooperationand,yes,profit.Hopefullyanewperspectiveonwhatweareactuallydoingandsellingwilleventuallymakeargumentssuchasthistotallyredundant,andopenupavastrangeofavenuesforcooperation.IlookforwardtothedaywhenIcantakeportableelectronicnotebooktothecragandallthisinfocanbestoredremotelytobedl'edatwill(thissiteisanindicationofthistrend),thenwecanstopchoppingdowntreestomakebookswith.

9b

2009020922:05:06

Grigri,therearenotjustpdforpaperguidebooks.Thereareebookstogetherwithvideos andonlineinteractive"topogroups" ,asI'mdescribinghereon9b,whereforsureYouasothersarewelcometodiscuss.Yes,thereareendlessopportunitiesforcooperation,freeinternetistheworldforit.Thepointisthatifyouwanttogainsomethinginafreeinternetworld,thebestbusinessmodelis...tocooperate,begenerous.Whystandingatthescannerifnottosavemoney?

WhynotstartgivingYourhelptosavemoneyinsteadof"deterrents"?Theclimberwhoprefersspendinganafternoonatthescanner,insteadofpaying25eurosfortheprintedtopo,maybewouldpay5eurosforabasicpdf,savinganafternoon.Otherdifferentclimberswouldnotbesatisfiedfromabasicpdf,sotheyprefertospend25eurosforanalreadyprintedversion,happytopayadditionalpricecoveringcostsforpaper,stock,distribution,shipping.So,2/3versionsofthesameproduct:differentprice/qualitylevels,betterpersonalization.Sometimescooperationisjustgivingthemtheversiontheyprefer.

Jens

2009020922:06:24

ThearticleatDesnivelareindeedverynegativetoRockfaxandothers.

Inthecaseof8a,weonlypublishedthepersonalopinionsofMarcoTroussier,andneverthelessweinvitedRockfaxtopublishanansweronthefirstpage.

InthecaseofDesnivel,itisDesnivelthatforwardstheaccusationsbutthereisnowaytoanswerwithacomment.Itwillbeinterestingtoseewhathappends.MaybeRockfaxwanttopublishthesameopenletterastheydidon8a,andwillDesnivelagreeonthat.

AsweallcouldseethattheRockfaxguyswerereallyupsetwiththestoryon8a,wecanexpectmuchworsecollissionbetweenRockfaxandDesnivel!

HaeMeS

2009020922:30:47

DearJens,

Doeyouunderstandwhatlanguageyouwrotethe'artikel'(...)in?Letmehelpyou:itwasEnglish.Yousay:"InSwedentheisalwaysusedforqoutes."Ididnotlooklikeaquotetome.Besides,howcanyouhonestlywritesomethinglikethis(asaformofdefence?)thisfardownadiscussion?LookattheanswersfromMichaelandAlan,orPeteandDavid.Theyarefarbetteratreasoningthanyou.You'rejustnotuptothisjob.Forgodssake,hireaneditor.Bemoreprofessionaltheconceptof8a.nuisgood,youarenot.

Quote:"Thesadthingisthatprobably,40%ofthepostsintheforumhavesomekindofpersonalinsultsormoralitylessons.Ihopethatasyoubroughtitup,thispercentagewouldbereducedinthefuture!"

Justbecauseonepersonsayssomethinginyourfavor,youdon'tneedtoemphasiseit.Orisitthatrareforyoutogetacomplement?Doyouthinkwebsiteslikeplanetmountain,UKclimbing,Desnivel,Supertopo,Kairntonameafewgetthislevelofcritisismthrownbackatthem?No,Idon'tthinkso.Growup,getalife.Hireaneditor.Stoppostingyourself,inthisfunnyEngishofyoursandsticktothebackofficeapsof8a.nu.Plentyofworktodoforonthatfront.Sorrytohaveinsultedyou,butIthinkthere'snootherwaytosaythis.It'sallreadybeensaidoftentoyoubutyoushownosignofimprovement.

MichaelRyan 2009021000:06:09

ItmustbethelanguagebarrierorgodforbidJensiscompletelynuts!

Icanbelieveanyonewouldsoslanderousandprovocative.Mustbethelanguagedifficulties!

"AsweallcouldseethattheRockfaxguyswerereallyupsetwiththestoryon8a,wecanexpectmuchworsecollissionbetweenRockfaxandDesnivel!"saysJens.

NoJens,asHaeMeSandothershavesaid,itisthewayyouhavecutandpastetheNewsreportfromanemailwithnoeditorialfilter,objectivenessorfairness.....nottomentionbadpunctuationandshoddyquotationmarks.

Upset?Notatall.Pissedoffwithyourunprofessionalism?

Yes,ofcourse.

RegardsMr40%,

Mick

jghedge 2009021001:19:49

"...itisthewayyouhavecutandpastetheNewsreportfromanemailwithnoeditorialfilter,objectivenessorfairness.....nottomentionbadpunctuationandshoddyquotationmarks."

ThatwasasnonsensicalasanythingyouaccuseJensofsaying...editorialobjectivityisafunctionofnothavinganeditorialfilter.UnlessyouworkforRupertMurdochIsuppose...

AndofcoursetherealissuehereisnottheissuesraisedbyTroussierandDesnivel,butratherpunctuationandquotationmarks...yeahright.

Itisgratifyingtoseethesepirates(yes,piratesandplagiaristsMick,sorryyoucan'thandlethetruth)finallygettingtheirjustdesserts.

EllisWhitson

2009021001:38:37

ManyoftheuserswhohavepostedinthisthreadwoulddowelltotakeacourseinEnglishreadingcomprehensioniftheywishtocoherentlydebatesomeoftheseissues.Jensontheotherhandisessentiallyalostcauseatthispoint.Ithasactuallybecomequitehilarioustoseehimcategoricallyignoreanddenyanycriticismtowardshimself/8aandrevelinthefarceofhisownwhimsicalreality.ItisnicetoseethatJensnowacknowledgesatleast40%oftheforumhascaughtontohisinsanity,asopposedtothe1%hesuggestedafewmonthsback.

BonarMcCallum 2009021002:00:36

Perhapswhatisneededisforamemberofthe8acommunitytointerprettotheirbestabilitywhatissaidinthearticle.Thiscouldbedoneonarotatingbasisaspeopleseefit.Perhapsagoodwaytoapproachitistosay"whatIthinkJensissayingis...""andthenputitinthebestlightpossible.Ifthiswasdoneatthetopofeachpostitmaybeaneffectivewaytokeepthetopicslessnastyandmorepleasantandproductive.

Oritmightjustbereallyentertaining.

Hereismythoughtonhowthewordingintheinitialarticlecouldhavebeenwrittentotakethefocusoffof8aasaculpritandtogettotheissues.Notethatthisisallfictional,asIdon'thaveanyfacts.WhatIthinkJenswassayingwas:

"MarcoTroussier,fromtheFrenchFederationFFME,contacted8awithregardstoguidebooksbeingproducedbyexternalorforeignsources.AccordingtoM.Troussier,publisherssuchasRockfaxarecreatingproblemsonacoupleoffronts:

First,thereareproblemstolocalaccessduetothefactthatoftentheexternallyproducedtoposdonotincludeaccessissues.Thelocalequippers,alongwithlocalguidebookproducersworkhardtomakeandupdateaccessagreementswithlandownersandlocalauthorities,andcommunicateanyspecificdetailsinthelocallyproducedguidebooks.Asmuchofthisinformationnotintheexternallyproducedguides,thereisagravepotentialforconflictstoarisethatcausemajoraccessproblems.

Second,M.Troussierallegesthatforeignguidebookproducersarecopyinglocalproductions,andaretakingadvantageofthehardworkthatlocalequippersandtopoproducersputintodevelopingnewcrags.Proceedsfromlocalguidebooksalesareusedtorecoupexpensesandtimeputintocragdevelopment.Thosedoingthisworkareoftenupsetwhentheyseecommercialtoposproducedabroadintheirareas.Tothemitmeansthattheprofitisgoingtosomeonewhohasputinnoefforttodevelopthearea,takingawaythisopportunityfromlocalproducers.

Says,MTrousseau:Theyarestealinglocalmoneyandcreatingaccessproblems!

AsRockfaxseemedtobethefocusforMarco,8acontactedAlanJamesfromRockfax.Hisresponsewas.

Perhapstherecouldbean8aeditorialatthispoint.

grigri

2009021007:59:02

IagreeBonar,Ioncedidexactlythatinadiscussionanditdefinitelydampenedthingsdownandkeptthediscussionreal.JenspleasereadBonarpostcarefullyitisagoodexampleofhowtostructureareportcontainingquotations.IreallythinkitwouldhelpyoutohaveanEnglishspeaking(firstlanguage)editoronyourteamtoavoidthesemisunderstandings.Ifinditextremelyupsettingtoreadanendlessslandermatchinsteadofhealthyandconstructivedebate.Thiscouldsoeasilybeavoidedwiththeuseofproperenglish.

Qoutationscanbewrittenlike:

JoeBlogs:"Blablabla".

or:

"Blablabla"JoeBlogs.

Adashonitsownmeans'asfollows'or'leadsto',itdoesnotindicateaquotationever.Quotationmarksarecalledthatforareason.8ahaslongsincepastthestagewhereitcanberunaspetwebsiteoperatedfromyourloungeorthelocalwirelesscafe.Thereneedstobealevelofprofessionalismwhichatpresentissadlylacking.Ireallythinkyourtimewouldbebetterspentimprovingonthefunctionalityofthewebsite(likeadecentforumforexamplepostinghereispainfullyslow)ratherthanendlesslydefendingyourselfforsimpleeditorialmistakesthatcouldeasilyhavebeenavoidedbyemployingacompetentenglishspeakingwriter.

Thatsaid8aisstillagreatsourceofinformation,Ithinkyouhitthenailontheheadwiththisarticle.ThesheervolumeofresponsefromtheRFcrowdindicatestomethatyouhitasorespot!!Welldone!Ihopetoseemorerealinnovations(websitefunctions)fromyouguysinfuture,butpleasegetsomehelpwiththeenglishlanguageinyourreports.

respectfullyGregHart.

MichaelRyan 2009021008:36:02

Grigrisaid

"ThesheervolumeofresponsefromtheRFcrowdindicatestomethatyouhitasorespot!!Welldone!"

Wronganddon'tencouragehim.

Theresponsesareduetothefactthatthisdiscussion,ashasbeenpointedoutisfullofmisinformationandpropaganda.

It'sasmearcampaign,againstoneguidebookpublisher.

Nothingconstructivehascomeoutofit.

Infactnothingbutnegativityascanbeseenbycommentslikethis,

"Itisgratifyingtoseethesepirates(yes,piratesandplagiaristsMick,sorryyoucan'thandlethetruth)finallygettingtheirjustdesserts."

AninternetslangingmatchcausedbyJensLarssen.

Youthinkanyonewillstoppublishingguidebooksinprintorontheinternetbecauseofthisfarce.

Iverymuchdoubtit.

MarcoTroussier

2009021009:01:42

Firstofall,thankyoufor8aandJensforhostingthoseexchangeandpointofvue.Wearenottalkingabout"+"or""aboutanewroutessomewhereinanobscurcliff.Thereareseriousproblemseverywhereintheworld.Itcoulbeaninternationalmeetingeveryyeartotalkaboutthat.Thequestion"economics"and"climbing"couldalsobeaninterestingtopic.

Thosearesriousproblems,interdictioninFrance,waytosolvethemandwhoisdoingthejobforwho'sbenefitisagoodquestion.Thinkinglikethiscanelevatethedebate.MrJingoiswrongformanythings.Let'stalkaboutSaintlegerexample(http://www.ffme.fr/site/FALAISE_fiche.php?id=2069).TherewasstrongproblemofaccessinSaintlger.Bycycling,walkingandclimbing.ThenationalforestofficewasupsetwewereveryclosetoatotalinterdictioninSaintLgerduetoenvironnementaleuropeanpolicyofpreservation.Wedecidetonotpublishatopo beforetheproblemswouldbesolveand......MrjingodidatopocoveringthatpartofLuberon....LetsimaginetheproblemswiththeNationalofficeofforest,andyoucanimaginewhoisdoingthejobalso...notMrJingo.ThelocalrousetterwiththehelpoflocalFFME(weareworkinglikethatinFFMEnationalisnotinvolveexceptmyadviceswiththelocalcragsproblems)didthejobforthebenefitofallclimbers.....Thisisconcretecaseandthosearethefact!ThentheyfundasolutionafterseveralmeetingwithONFandclimbingisOkinSaintlgerandGrozeauand.....therisnowaFrenchtopo,theonlyonewhoisvalidtoexistTheonlyoneyouhavetobuy.Thanksforthediscussion,infrancewewillcontinuetoworkforthefreedomofclimbing(morethan200personsinvolvelocally)andwewillcontinuetosolveproblemsandwehopeyouwillbuyourtoposbecausenowtuouwouldnotsay"idon'tgivea....ofthatproblems,andidon'tcareaboutthoseclimbers".Ihopetoparticipatetoothergreatdebateavboutimportantthingsfortheclimbingcommunity.

jghedge 2009021009:55:01

"Youthinkanyonewillstoppublishingguidebooksinprintorontheinternetbecauseofthisfarce."

No,butIcan'timagineRFgoingonasbefore.WhentheeditorofDesnivelcallsRFpirates,plagiaristsandparasitesintheleadeditorialoftheprinteditionofthemag...I'vebeenreadingclimbingmagsfor35yearsandIdon'tremembereverreadingeditorializinglikethat,KenWilsonoffhismedscouldn'thavetoppedit...

Mindyou,mySpanishisn'tPh.Dlevel...maybethere'ssomebadpunctuationandshoddyquotationmarksinit,soRFmightcomeoutsmellinglikearoseafterall...

HaeMeS

2009021010:59:04

InreplytoMarco:LetsuseStLegerasanexample.Youaresurelyawarethattopo'sofStLegerexistedlongbeforetheoneproducedbyJingoWobbly.Takeforinstancethistopo,madebyalocal(PauldeWilde):http://5sup.com/st_leger/topo_st_leger.pdf.Thistopodoesinfactmentiontheaccessissue:"IlnexistepasdeconventionentrelaFdration(ComitDpartementalduVaucluse)etlepropritaireduterrain."Nevertheless,thetopowasmadeanddistributed.Apartfromtheinternettopo's,StLegerwasalsoheavilypublicizedintheclimbingmedia(inprint)sinceit'searlydevelopment.

Whatwentwronginthisinstance?Werethosewhowantedtoclimbtherewronginactualllygoing,afterhavingseenpicturesandheardstoriesaboutthisbeautifullarea?Andweretheywrongintheirneedforatopo?OrwerethosewhoequippedtheroutesWITHOUTfirstsolvingtheaccessissuewrong?I'llleaveittoyoutodecide.

Asforthelinkyou'veprovidedtotheFFMEsite:theFFMEdoesagoodjobofprovidinginformation,regulatingtheaccesstoclimbingsitesand(supportingthe)equiping(of)thesite(s).IthinkoneshouldconsulttheFFMEbeforepublishingaboutanarea.Betterstill,oneshouldcontacttheFFMEbeforeboltinginthefirstplace.Butthereisnoneedtomonopolisetherighttopublishaguidebooktoanarea.Aslocalsareoftennotabletounderstandtheneedsofvisitingclimbers,itshardlysurprisingtheystartmakingguidebooksthatsuittheirownneeds.Thoseguidebooksareawelcomeadditiontothelocalguidebooks.WhynotusetheopportunityandstartaninitiativetoproduceFFMEareaguidebooks?It'snotjustNorthernEuropeanpublishers(Rockfax,Rotpunkt,Cicerone,Loboedition),butalsoSpanishandItalianpublisherswhoknowwhatpeoplewant(seeforinstanceAndaluciabyDavidMunillaortheVersanteSudareaguidebooks).

Dontwhine,butact!

DavidAtchisonJones

2009021011:08:18

HiMarco,Ihavereadyourcomments.IunderstandandappreciateyourworkandthatoftheFFME,ONFetc.IfirstdiscoveredSt.Legerinthemid1980s,andhavebeenwellinformedastoeverythingthathasgoneon.Tosaythewholedevelopmentwasadisasterwasanunderstatement,IcouldgoonabouttheimpactofMagazinearticles,climbersclimbinginthebioareawhentheywerenotmeantto,notusingpropercampsitesetc,etc.Noitwasadisasterandthatisthat.NoneofthesewereanythingtodowiththeJingoAvignonBook.

Ihavetwogoodpointstoaddtothisdisussion.IboughtmyfirstMonanejostopoyearsagoinpesetas!IboughtisdirectfromErnestotheauthor.Hetookallthemoney.Theshopwashisrucksac,andthedeliverycompanywashislegstothecliff.Soafterreasonableproductioncostsofsay50%,50%ofthemoneypaidwenttotheAuthorErnesto,whowasalsotheequipper.IthoughtthiswasgreatandcameupwiththeideaofaclimbingguidebooktoEurope.ItwouldhaveallthecliffsinEuropebutnotopos.Insteadyouhadfreeadvertsforanyonethatmadeandsoldatopoatthecliff.TheneveryonecouldtravelallaroundEuropeandusethisbook.Thisideawastosupportlocalauthors/equippers.Thisbookisnowcominguptoits20 thyearandisinits5 theditionandiscalledJingoWobblyEuropeSportVertical.Soafewthanksforthepast20yearswouldbegrateful.Itisalsoworthsayingthatthisworkhastakenmeover25years,andIhavetakenovermillionphotos.Thecostinproducingthishasbeenimmense,andmoneyfrombeingtheauthoractuallyonlycoversabout10%oftheexpenditure.Ihavenotbeensupportedbyanynationalclimbingfederationitisallmoneyfrommyownpocket.

Sohowdiditallgowrong?Itwasagreatidea.BacktoErnestoagain,hekepthisheadandrefusedtosellanyofhistopostoasecondagent,andyoucouldonlybuythemfromhim.Thiswayhegotallthe50%andmadesenseofequipping&sellingtopos.Othershoweverlosttheplot!Theysoldtheirtopostoshops,whothennaturallytooktheirpercentage,leavingtheauthorwithonly10%.Thatwaswhereitallstartedtogowrongsincetheshoptook30%,andtheshippingtookanother10%,sothewholeconceptofactuallyraisingmoneywasnotworking.EvenashoplikeSoescaladeneedstoemploystaffandusedeliveryservices.IveevenseenFrenchguidebooksforsaleinCaliforniaatacost!Inthoseinstancesonly4%ofmoneyactuallypaidwouldhavegonetotheauthor!Ifyouaregoingtousetheargumentoftopomoneygoingtoauthorswhothengiveittoequippers,thentheymustselldirecttoclimbersatthecliffsthemselvesonly.

MichaelRyan 2009021014:47:36

Ifanylocaltopomakers/publishersinFranceorSpainwantthereguidesdistributedintheUKcontactRichardatCordee.

http://www.cordee.co.uk/

Asyoucanseethereareseveralguidesalreadythere:

France:http://www.cordee.co.uk/rockclimbguidesfrance.php

SpainandPortugal:http://www.cordee.co.uk/rockclimbguidesspainportugal.php

YoucanevenbuyaguidetoBenNevis,ScotlandbyaFrenchauthor!!!!!!ThelateandgreatGodefroyPerroux.

http://www.cordee.co.uk/CCN027.php

AlsowerunDestinationarticlesatUKClimbing.com,ifanylocalauthorswouldliketopreviewtherelocalcragsandguidebooks,getintouchwithourdestinationseditor

Onlyareasthatdon'thaveaccessconcerns,andofcourseno'secret'areas.

Example,andpleaseupdateifyouseeanythingamiss

GorgesDuTarn,France

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1556

Cheers,

MickUKClimbing.com

MichaelRyan 2009021014:49:43

YoumaynotethatwehaveincludeddetailsofthelocalGorgeduTarnguidebookinthatparticulararticleatUKClimbing.com

WheredoIgettheguidebook?

'LeTarn'bytheClubAlpinFrancais,isavailablefromthe"tabac"inLeRozierandLesVignesandalsofromanumberofthebookshopsinMillau.Itisnowalittleoutofdate(firstpublishedin2000)butnewrouteinformationisavailablefromtheclimbingwallinMillau.

Mick

JoakimThommesen

2009021016:27:54

AmItheonlyonetoseethatasignificantpartofthis"gettingpaidproblem"iscompletelyfictional?

Developersofnewroutesdoesnotneedtobefinanciallyrewarded.Everybodyknowsthis.GoodcragsandgoodlineswillbeboltedbyenthusiasticclimbersbecausetheyLOVEDOINGIT.Notbecausetheygetpaid.Anyoneclaimingsomethingelseiseitherlyingorafool.

Whatyouneedmoneyforisthereboltingofcrags.Period.

Forum:GLOBAL /News/Accessproblemsdueexternaltopoproduction Loginintocontribute

Accessproblemsdueexternaltopoproduction

www.8a.nu

2009020600:00:00

"MarcoTroussier,fromtheFrenchfederationFFME,hasinformed8athat externalguideproductionlikeRockfaxcopyinglocalproductionisathreattolocalaccesswork.FFMEisworkinghardwithaccessissuesbutoftentheexternalproducedtoposdonotincludethelastlocalagreementsandcouldcreateaccessproblemsetc.Theequippersandthelocaltopoproducermakeandupdateaccessagreementswiththelandownerandthelocalcouncilinmanycliffs.Theseguysareoftenupsetwhentheymeetforeignerswithacommercialtopoproducedabroad.InsomecasestoposlikeRockfaxcouldcreatedbiglocalaccessroblems,accordingTroussier.Theclimbingcommunityshouldsupportlocallyproducedtoposandlocalaccessagreementseverywhereintheclimbingworld.Rockfaxisstealinglocalmoneyandcreatingaccessproblems.Moralityagainstprofit,chooseyourcamp!"

JohanSvensson

2009020603:42:32

Thisissoonesided,"moralityagainstprofit,chooseyourcamp",whatisthat...Theremustbeawaytoworktogether.LocalguidesareoftenhardtogetbyandperhapsRockFaxcouldhaveawebadresswheretheypresentupdatesonlocalinfo.Ithinkthatisaresposibilitythatcomeswithproducingguides!

MattHall 2009020604:41:53

It'sridiculoustomakethisissuesoblackandwhite.Peopleneedtoeducatethemselvesastolocallanduseagreementsandcustoms.WithconcerntoRockfax"stealinglocalmoney"Ithinktheyhaveeveryrighttocompetefairlywithlocalguidebookauthors.Theyshouldconscienceenoughtoincludeinformationonaccessissuesetc.butasclimbersitisalsoourdutytoinformourselvesandberespectful.

jghedge 2009020608:02:03

"WithconcerntoRockfax"stealinglocalmoney"Ithinktheyhaveeveryrighttocompetefairlywithlocalguidebookauthors."

Thethingyou'renotgettingisthatthey'renotjust"localguidebookauthors". Thepeoplewhospentthetimeandmoneytodevelop(bolt)thecragsarelookingtorecouptheircostsbysellingguidestotheareatheydeveloped.IfRockfaxwantstoprintguidestocrags,thentheycangooutandbolttheirowncrags,andprintguidesforthem.Therearecertainlyplentyofnewareastodevelop.

Ifafriendofyoursspentthousandsofdollarsandhundredsofhoursdevelopinganewcrag,wouldyoutellhimyouhave"everyrighttocompete"ifyoupublishedaguidetoitagainsthiswishes?Orwouldyoulethimputouttheguidesohecouldgetbacksomeofthemoneyhespentdevelopingit?

StefanoVarnerin

2009020609:29:36

Itotallyagreewithjghedge,we'renottalkingabout2bookauthorsincompetition,butaboutthelocalareadeveloperthatspendtime,energyandalotofMONEYtoboltcliffsthatwecanallclimbeduehishardworkandaboutsomeonewhoonedaycametothecliff,buythelocalguideandsay"nicespot,icancopytheguideandsellitabroad"..........sowhohastheright?

AlanJames 2009020609:51:44

OneoftheproblemsmanytravellingclimbershavewhenvisitingcragsinFranceisgettingholdofthelocalinformation.Theguidebookscoververysmallareasandareusuallyonlyavailableinselectedlocations.Theresultofthisisthatclimberseitherjustvisitthemainpopularcrags,ortheyvisitthenewcragswithoutproperinformation,whichcancauseproblemsiftheyparkinthewrongplace,orclimbthereatthewrongtimeofyearwhenthecragisclosedforsomereason.

ThenewRockfaxguidestoFranceaimtohelptravellingclimbersbybringingtogetherlotsofsmallcrags,togetherwiththemorepopularones,intoafewbooks.Thebooksarebeingcarefullyresearchedsothatwehavegoodaccessinformationtoavoidproblemswithlocallandowners.Formostofthecragswewillnotbeincludingallthesectors,justafew,wewillthenbepointingatlocalguidebookswherepeoplecangetextrainformation.

Theinformationinthesebooksisnotcopiedfromotherbooksinmanycasesthatisimpossiblebecauseitdoesn'tevenexistinotherguidebooks.Allthephotosandmapsandinformationisbeingresearchedbytheauthor.Ofcoursewedouselocalguidebookfortheroutenames,andwealsousethelocalgrades,althoughwedoassessthoseourselvesaswell.

Therehasalwaysbeenaquestionaboutlocalclimbersfundingboltingbyse