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D I A L O G U E
The Bombay Archdiocesan Commission for Inter-Religious Dialogue
President : Cardinal Oswald Gracias
Secretary : Fr. Aniceto Pereira
Office Add. : St. Andrew’s Educational Foundation Trust, St. Dominic Road, Bandra, Mumbai - 400 050
Telephone : 26514547 Website : www.archbomird.org
Email : irdbom@gmail.com
Members : Dr. (Mrs) Valerie D’Souza, Ernest Fernandes, John Misquitta, Silvie Joseph, Noella Colaco, Maria Pinto, Rita D’Silva and Joseph Gaikwad
Admin Assts. : Marie D’Souza, Thelma Cardoz
Printed at : Ganesh Offset, Dadar, Mumbai - 400 028. Tel.: 2437 8688
Vol. XIII No. 1 Jan - Mar. 2016
1. Divine Mercy & Divine Justice : A Dialectic Fr. Aniceto Pereira 2
Editorial
2. Need we fear Divine Justice ? Thelma Cardoz 3Introduction of the discussion theme
3. Reflections on Mercy Transcription by 4by Representatives of Different Religions Fiona Fernandes(including photo feature by Peter de Souza) Thelma Cardoz,
John Misquitta
4. Questions and Answers Transcription by 9from the Audience Fiona Fernandes,
Marie D’Souza
Inter-Religious Gathering for Easter John Misquitta 14
F&mšj kesâ efueÙes Devlej-Oece& yew"keâ heer. Skeäme. mJeeceer
Proceedings of the
INTER RELIGIOUS CELEBRATION OF THE YEAR OF MERCYAT MOUNT MARY BASILICA, BANDRA
on 19th February 2016
Happy Easter
May The Risen Lord Bless You All
Sammelan XIII - 1 : Jan - Mar 2016 u 2
Editorial
DIVINE MERCY &
JUSTICE : A DIALECTICIn this year of mercy, announced by the Holy
Father (Dec 2015 – Nov 2016), we are being
invited to come to the well-spring of God's
mercy, and to proclaim it to all those who
sincerely wish to return to God's forgiving
love. In all religions, however, the requirement
of following God's commandments is
accompanied by an idea of his justice, with a
reward to those who are obedient to him, and
severe consequences for those who are
disobedient. Religions provide different
descriptions of these consequences, and an
exploration of these differences can lead to a
greater appreciation of God's mercy and the
conditions for a deeper experience of it.
With this in mind, the Mount Mary Basilica
IRD Cell organized a discussion on divine thjustice and mercy on 19 February 2016 in the
Mount Mary Convent Hall from 4 pm to 6 pm.
This issue of Sammelan is dedicated to this
thought-provoking gathering and comprises a
transcription of the speeches of various
speakers.
It was very obvious that there was a clear
division between the “Karmic” religions
represented on the dais , Hinduism,
Zoroastrianism and Jainism (even though,
Jainism does not admit the concept of a creator
god), and the “non-Karmic” religions, namely
Islam and Christianity. The Karmic religions
approached the dilemma between divine
justice and mercy as a limitless opportunity to
w o r k o n e ' s w a y t o m o k s h a . T h e
representatives of non-Karmic religions
accepted that the offer of salvation is once for
all, but that divine grace is there to help the
soul enter paradise. For both ideologies, the
ultimate question still remains: will God judge
any weak or unrepentant soul severely, and
remand him or her eternally to hell? Either way
we end up with a dilemma: is God just and
unbiased (and therefore holding out the threat
of hell) or is he merciful to all (irrespective of
human goodness).
Cardinal Walter Kasper, in his now famous
book MERCY, grapples with this controversy
and explains that God's mercy does not entail
by-passing human freedom. “Both divine
freedom and human freedom are a mystery,
explains Cardinal Kasper. Their relation to
each other is, a fortiori, and unfathomable
mystery, which we cannot penetrate. The only
answer open to us, on the basis of biblical
testimony, is unconditional trust in the
immeasurable mercy of God, who knows
ways, inscrutable to us, and who never ceases
to court human beings and to make their
positive response attractive”. (Mercy, St. Paul's,
2015 , pg. 153).
The Christian faith thus places the soul deep
within the confines of a dialectic at work,
tossed between hope of heaven and the fear of
hell. On the one hand the offer of heaven
encourages the soul to trust in God's mercy; on
the other, the fear of hell needs to be
experienced as an urgent appeal to conversion.
However, it would not be right to give equal
weightage to the unconditional offer of
salvation by God and the human being's
rejection of this offer. The preeminence of
divine mercy must be acknowledged. It is the
uniqueness of the Christian faith to hold that
Jesus Christ has died for all on the cross, and is
indeed a gracious judge.
Fr. Aniceto PEREIRA
Sammelan XIII - 1 : Jan - Mar 2016 u 3
The Mount Mary Basilica IRD Cell is one of the
many cells operating in the Archdiocese,
under the inspiration and animation of the
Archdiocesan Commission for IRD. The Cell
members invest a great amount of time and
energy to build, on behalf of the Mount Mary
Basilica, profound relationship with people of
other faiths, and also with the leaders and
authorities of religious shrines. These
relationships also give rise to common
activities, sometimes organised by the
Basilica, with people of other faiths
participating in them. At other times the cell
members attend similar IRD functions
organised by others.
As we are in the season of lent within the Year
of Mercy declared by the Holy Father, the
Mount Mary IRD Cell taught it would be
appropriate to have a special event celebrating
Mercy with people of other faiths thus on 19th
February 2016 representatives of different
religions were invited to share their
perspectives on Mercy particularly exploring
the following theme: "IN ALL RELIGIONS,
BELIEF IN THE GOOD NEWS OF DIVINE
MERCY AS RENDERED DIFFICULT
BECAUSE OF THE BAD NEWS OF DIVINE
JUSTICE." So on behalf of Mt. Mary Inter
Religious Dialogue Cell and Fr. Aniceto
Pereira, the Archdiocesan Commission Head,
she once again welcomed the gathering.
As we know Mercy is a force that overcomes
everything. The moment we forgive, we also
receive God's Mercy. Mercy is therefore being
loved forever despite of our sinfulness. In
mercy - how much God loves us and that is the
reason why we have gathered together as one
family knowing that God is merciful
NEED WE FEAR DIVINE JUSTICE ?
irrespective of our caste, creed or religion. Pope
Francis had declared the year of Mercy by
opening the holy door of St. Peter's Basilica in
Rome on 8th December 2015. Mount Mary's
had a beautiful opening of the Door of Mercy on
20th December 2015. The gathering thus began
with the presentation of a video report of Pope
Francis visiting a Synagogue in Rome on 20th
January 2016, and a mercy hymn composed
and video graphed by the youth of I.C. Church,
Borivli.
Fr. Aniceto Pereira - Head Commission was
invited to welcome the guests and the
participants who also gave his thoughts of
Mercy and said "To be Religious is to be inter-
religious" - and need to connect with people of
other faiths regarding the issues of the faiths.
He introduced the anchor person Fr. Dolreich -
Master of Philosophy (Paris).
Fr. Dolreich - put his thoughts saying, "Justice
can be defined as doing what is right and Mercy
as doing what is kind. If justice is giving what is
due and mercy is overlooking what is due -
Justice and Mercy are contradictory terms". We
can also say that some people are kinder and
some are wicked. It is natural to say that God
should treat them according to their merits. He
then introduced the eminent speakers : Prof.
Harsha Badkar (Head of Philosophy Dept.,
Wilson College) - Hindu Perspective; Prof.
Shilpa Chheda (Curator, Heras Institute) - Jain
Perspective; Maulana Zaheer Abbas Rizvi
(Religious Scholar and Writer) - Muslim
Perspective; Mr. Bomie Doctor (Marketing
Consultant) - Zoroastrian Perspective; and
Fr. Caesar D'Mello (Professor of Moral
Theology) - Christian Perspective.
Thelma Cardoz
Sammelan XIII - 1 : Jan - Mar 2016 u 4
First Speaker: MR. BOMI DOCTOR
Mercy is known as 'Merez' it comes from the
holy gathas that are the teachings of
Zarathustra in poetic form. It appears in the
forms of Merezdatha i.e. giving or the
outpouring of mercy; it also appears in the
form of Merez Nikka, a pouring forth of
forgiveness and mercy grace. Mercy is to get
out of the cycle of Karma. It is to go through the
mechanical circle of nature and ascend to a
higher plane where they become a part or a
participant of a higher providence. This mercy
and grace of higher providence is for all
creation; we are not only looking at human
beings but we are looking at all creation over
here, and that's what we believe in. We receive
it according to our sincere aspirations and our
openness. It is our duty to advance this by
actively seeking aasha; aasha means
righteousness and truth.
But the consequences of our actions are fixed
and if we die there is no mercy for any misdeed
that we have committed. If we have created a
misdeed in our life, there are going to be
consequences. Going ahead my question is 'to
what extent?' and 'how do we get this?' Mercy
is given only if we repent for what we have
done. So the question comes in here. When we
realise the harm we have done to another
human being or any of God's creation, and we
truly repent for it in our hearts and in our
minds, then the consequences will reduce with
repentance. Its only when we realise that we
have harmed or done wrong to somebody and
we truly repent then we can ask for mercy.
In Zoroastrianism repentance is called
'Patetti'. The last day of the Zoroastrian year is
called 'Patetti'. Many people wish each other
REFLECTIONS ON MERCY
'Patetti Mubarak' but to us that is a wrong thing
to do, because Patet is a day of repentance.
Once you repent, the next day you start the
New Year. So we do have a day of repentance
where we can lessen our guilt and lessen the
consequences of what we have done in the past
one year. We can do this prayer of 'Patetti' when
we are alive or when the soul has departed
from our lives from this materialistic world.
When the ceremonial prayer is conducted to
ask for mercy it is known as 'Patet Paschimani;
that is we pray for forgiveness, for repentance,
for any bad thing we have done for any person
in our lives, and also for ourselves.
We also pray for the departed souls and for that
the prayer is called 'Patet Ravani; wherever the
souls are we pray for them that they may get a
better passage to the eternal world of the souls.
We believe that on the 4th day after the person
expires is Judgement Day. On that day the soul
reaches a particular plain where it is judged.
We as humans sitting here do not know where
the soul has reached or to what plane or level he
has reached. Well, in order for it to proceed or
to go higher plane we pray for the departed
soul so that it gets forgiveness from the divine
Lord, from the 'Ahura Mazdah'. Then it can go
higher in its quest of the next life.
A Zoroastrian goal is to be a good human being
and that's why we believe in the concept of:
Good Thoughts, Good Words & Good Deeds.
Words and deeds are basically materialistic.
We can harm people by our words, we can
harm people by our deeds; and when we do
that its always written down that I have
harmed somebody so therefore we have got to
be punished somewhere or the other. I can also
ask the person if I have wronged you for
Sammelan XIII - 1 : Jan - Mar 2016 u 5
something, please forgive me; and if you have
mercy on me you will forgive me, so here my
guilt becomes less and the consequences
become less. But what is the foundation of all
this? The root cause of all this is good or bad
thoughts! What happens then? Because it's in
our thoughts, not in our words or actions. So
now too can we ask for forgiveness? We have
found a way of doing that, by repenting for
our thoughts and by doing good to others. So
for us in Zoroastrianism its mainly that we
need to follow the 3 Pillars of: Good Thoughts,
Good Words & Good Deeds. Once you do that
you repent and mercy is given. This is what we
firmly believe in.
Second Speaker: MS. SHILPA CHEDDA
Before beginning on the topic of Mercy &
Divine Justice I would like to tell you that in
the Jain tradition we believe that God is not the
creator of the universe, and the people who
are venerated in the Jain tradition are like the
prophets or like the teachers who teach the
path to 'Moksh', and they teach us how to get
liberation from the cycle of birth and death.
So there is a basic difference between the
atheistic tradition and the Jain religion,
where we do not have divine intervention.
It's basically the theory of 'Karma'. So our
every action, reaction in our life is given by
your own action and you are paid for
whatever you have sown. So the question of
mercy will not arise because God does not
arise in the Jain tradition.
In Jain tradition gods are those who live in the
celestial world and the people who are
venerated in the temples are prophets and
they are venerated because of their qualities.
They themselves have renounced the world.
It is not that we ask for their justice or any
kind of mercy from them because they only
show us the path that helps us how to get rid
of the deeds in the life. So the entire concept
of mercy does not exist because we know
that if we do something we need to pay for it.
And that repayment may not be only in
this life but also the next life. Since we
believe in the theory of 'Karma' and 'aatma' we
also believes in rebirth and 'moksh'. It has
always been considered that the soul is in
bondage. So when the soul is in bondage then
you have to get rid of that bondage of the
'Karma'. Once you get rid of the 'Karma' then
you will attain 'moksh'. So this process of
getting rid of 'Karma', this path is shown by all
the tirthankaras. These 'tirthankaras’ do not
interfere in anybody's life because they have
not created it. They are just showing us the
path. Whatever we do we know that one day
we are going to get its reward or punishment.
So all the Jain scriptures shows us how to live a
good life, how to do good actions and how we
go through the cycle of birth and death. Hence
we do not have that grace of God that will help
us in overcoming this. The prophets show us
what we have to do. They tell us that the power
of discernment through the 'Viveka Buddhi'.
We follow them to know what they have done
and the path that they have followed and so,
for us, they are the heroes. We follow them to
see what they have done in their lives and how
they have overcome all the obstacles by
enjoying the karmas and not letting be bound
by them. We have to get rid of the bad things so
that we do not have to face the Karmas. And
hence the entire path will focus on your deeds,
how you do what you do and how you behave.
So again what is common in all the religions
is to keep 'Good Thoughts, Good Words &
Good Deeds. So ultimately you reduce the
entire Jain way of life into 3 words that is
in: 'Ahimsa' (non - violence), non - possession
and non - absolutism. So when you look at any
perspective you think that you are not the
Sammelan XIII - 1 : Jan - Mar 2016 u 6
person to judge who is right and who is
wrong. You may understand the perspective
of others, you may respect their perspective
and understand the situation. Every time a
person may not be right or wrong but we need
to understand the other person’s perspective
and in that sense in the Jain tradition we
focus more on the path of mercy and that
always will be connected to the karmas. The
way you behave in society you will know
what will be the result for that. You don't
have to be dependent on anybody else who
will give you any grace, or any concession but
it is you only who will understand. If I have
harmed anybody, if I have tortured anybody,
the same person or the same being will be
doing that with me in the same birth or in the
next birth. The intensity and the duration with
which you have attached the karma in the
same way you will be rewarded, there will not
be any plus or minus, or you cannot overcome
that particular action in any ways. You will
have to undergo that part of pleasure and
pain. That is what Jainism says.
Third Speaker : PROF. HARSHA BADKAR
I am grateful to the leadership of Pope Francis,
as we have seen how important it is in today's
time to relate to the other religions. In today's
time of pluralism we cannot really escape
coexisting with the people of other religions
and therefore this kind of forum is really
important because we try and understand the
emotions, the sentiments of each other, and
that is the only way in which we can exist
peacefully. That is the real meaning of
coexistence, because we can sometimes exist
together without talking to each other and
being concerned about each other, but that is
not what coexist is about. When we relate to
each other, we understand each other it is then
that the love that is created for each other
becomes the base for the mutual coexistence.
So I think this is a very good gesture on the part
of the leader Pope Francis; and the effects that
it has already created and taken up like going
to the synagogue and trying to talk about the
mistakes of the past and trying to move ahead
is good. That's true repentance. When we
make a mistake we should make it public and
tell the people that yes we have made a mistake
and we are sorry we will not do it again.
Even in Hinduism when we talk about mercy
we talk about Karuna, we talk about God's
Krupa. Its like how we say, "Upparwala ki
krupa ho toh har bigdi bat ban jayengi" (if it's
the will of God all the ruined things will start to
get better). We are so hopeful we know that
God’s love is endless, we know that there is no
limit to God's love and it's like the love that the
father has for his child. The father is always
willing to forgive the child when the child does
something wrong because ultimately the child
is innocent, the child has not done anything
wrong deliberately. So this kind of mercy of
the father towards the child is what we also
expect from our God. It's the same kind of
feeling that we also have in Hinduism. All the
wrong things that are happening to us can be
set right with his mercy.
Fourth Speaker : MAULANA ZAHEER
ABBAS RIZVI (Spoke in Hindi)
Bismillah Irahaman Irahim.
Ladies and gentlemen the topic is the need of
the hour. Today, it is necessary that we discuss
such topics because of the problems that the
world is facing. You know that there is a lot of
unrest and problems in the world today. Man
is unwilling to understand another human
being. We have become victims of an identity
crisis. We are passing through such great
identity crisis that we are unwilling to
Sammelan XIII - 1 : Jan - Mar 2016 u 7
recognize our fellow human beings. It is very
nice, that we are talking on such a subject that
is much related to us.
The topic is Mercy and Divine Mercy. What is
mercy? And what is repentance? I am
listening to the concept of mercy. I think the
concepts are more or less the same in all
religions, with few differences. And the
difference is more of language. I am talking
Urdu, Hindi, Hindustani. Someone talks in
English, Gujarati. They are using these words
as part of their vocabulary. And when these
words are used, we may be confused as we
may not be used to those words. We may
come to the conclusion that the thought put
forward is different. And we think that it is
difference of faith. I tell you very honestly, that
as I was listening to the various learned
speakers here that we are not used to these
words. Concepts more or less are the same;
there is no difference. Mercy touches human
lives. Mercy is very natural in human beings.
People of all creeds, castes, colour have mercy
in them. Mercy is present in animals too. See
the mother animal even she shows mercy on
her tender baby. This is very natural in human
beings also. There is mercy somewhere or the
other in the world.
Man has mercy on himself, his children,
family members. When the canvas of mercy
enlarges, it moves from the home and it comes
out of the door into the neighbourhood, and
there to the king's castle and from there it
moves to the city and to the country at large.
This is a very natural thing. When human
beings become the creators of their own
children, mercy is shown to them. Every son
and daughter is the offspring of the parents.
Being the creator of our own children we love
our children. How is it possible, then, that
parents will not show love and mercy on their
children? It is possible that there could be a
difference in certain human beings. But, a
dialogue can be had on this topic. It happens
that the child has come into the world because
of the love of the parents. The child has come
from the womb of the mother. Do you think
that the one who has created this universe will
not love all his creation? Surely, the Creator
will love his creation.
But, there is a limit to this mercy. Yes, there is a
limit to the mercy of God. If we think that God
is merciful, therefore I can do what I want,
then, we are sadly mistaken. God will judge us
by our deeds.
Fifth Speaker : FR. CAESAR D’MELLO
It has been very enlightening listening to the
different religious perspectives on divine
mercy in relationship with justice, and even
though, as the previous speaker noted, the
concepts are very similar yet they also have
differences. Listening to the Jain perspective,
Muslim perspective and Hindu perspective
was most interesting and enlightening. So it is
my job to speak on the Christian perspective. I
want to present to you three scenarios and
draw lessons from them to highlight the
conflicts between Mercy and Justice.
The first scenario is taken from the Gospel of
John chp 8 where Jesus is teaching his
disciples, and all of a sudden the Pharisees and
the Scribes come bringing with them a woman.
They throw the woman in front of Jesus telling
him, “This woman was caught in the act of
adultery. Moses and the law order us to stone
this woman. What do you say?” Of course they
want to trap him. Jesus looks at the woman and
the people accusing her and then says, “the
person is who is without sin may cast the first
Sammelan XIII - 1 : Jan - Mar 2016 u 8
stone.” The gospel tells us that one by one they
dropped the stones beginning with the eldest,
and went away. Then Jesus looked up at them
and saw no one except the woman. He asks her,
“nobody condemned you?” She said, “no”.
“Neither will I condemn you. Go and sin no
more”. So the Pharisees and the scribes were
quoting justice according to the law of Moses
by which this woman should be stoned. But it
is questionable whether that would be just
because the woman was to be stoned, yet
nothing was said about the man who most
probably might have been more responsible.
But Jesus found the way out. For him what
mattered most was the heart of this woman.
She was repentant, and so his answer was 'go
and sin no more'. So we see Jesus finding a kind
of a middle way between justice and mercy.
The Second Scenario is the time when once
again Jesus tells the people he is addressing 'we
have heard that it was said to our ancestors, an
eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” (which is the
law of Talion). Gandhi once wisely remarked
that if we really follow this law, in a short time
everyone in society will be toothless and blind.
So Jesus says“this is what you heard, but what I
tell you is something different. If somebody
slaps you on one cheek offer him the other as
well, and if somebody takes your shirt give him
your cloak as well; if somebody asks you to go
one mile you offer to go a second mile”. This is
a totally different approach; the approach of
love and mercy going far behind the law. This
was the way where Jesus found the answer to
this problem of justice and mercy.
But there still remains the third scenario taken
from the gospel of Matthew chp. 25, the scene
of last judgment. The king is seated on his
throne and the angels come and divide the
sheep from the goats; good from the bad, and
he tells the good people “come blessed of my
father into the kingdom which was prepared
for you from all eternity”. And to the evil he
will say “depart from me to hell and eternal
punishment”. Now for us the question is how
can there be reconciliation between God
whom we know a God of love and eternal
damnation, hell. I remember my father who
was quite a thinker himself said, I cannot
accept the god of love and mercy sending
people to eternal damnation. I am sure that
many of you feel the same. So when I checked
with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it
says that we have to believe the existence of
hell as well as heaven. We must also remember
the biblical writers lived in a three tiered
understanding of the universe: heaven above,
earth, and sheol under the earth. We have to
better understand the existence of hell and
eternal life. Eternal separation from God is the
real hell. We are called to live with
responsibility in making our choices between
good and evil, right and wrong. To be
separated from God is eternal damnation.
Pope Francis’ latest book “The Name of God Is
Mercy”emphasizes again and again that God
is a God of Mercy, God of love.
I think there cannot be a real contradiction
between divine justice and divine mercy. It is
an apparent contradiction. And in his book
“Situation Ethics” Joseph Fletcher says that
actually Justice and love are the same, they are
interchangeable, justice is love distributed, or
in another way justice is love standing on its
head. So there is no contradiction between
divine justice and divine mercy; it is a way of
looking at it!
Transcription by
Fiona Fernandes, Thelma Cardoz,
John Misquitta
Sammelan XIII - 1 : Jan - Mar 2016 u 9
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
Q : Sr. Pauline DSP : In the context of the
escalating violence against innocent people,
particularly dalits, and sexual violence against
women and children, the guilty are actually not
adequately punished, nor do they repent. There is a
conflict between the judicial system and the
Human Rights Activists. How can we strike a
balance between justice and mercy in such cases?
A: Prof. Shilpa: Injustice against dalits is a
more regional issue, and so we have to
investigate the local problem; it cannot be
generalized. But against women and children
what abuses are happening, one thing is clear
that for real justice it all depends on evidence.
These issues are our own affairs, in the
families, in society, in the area, in the village; so
we should rather look at the problem and try to
solve it. We have these problems more, of
course, in the cities; but they have a different
connotation in the villages where it mixes with
many political issues. It is not only a social or
religious matter, these issues are made much
more vibrant just for the political profit. But if
you really want to change in society, one has to
examine that particular issue and educate the
people, instead of going for judicial remedy. If
the matter reaches court then you have all
other lobbies like the village panchayat.
However there is also the strong lobby now-a-
days of women who are taking part in the
decision making. They should be allowed to
sort out these matters in that particular area. If
you look at all these problems as national
problems, then of course there won't be a
common answer; we have to see these as
regional issues.
A: Prof. Harsha: I see it slightly differently
from Shilpa. She is looking at it as a local issue.
I feel it is a global issue. I will explain myself.
Basically I think there is an increase in the
crime rate, in the abuse of women and
children, also crimes against the lower caste,
the untouchables, dalits. The way I see it is the
lack of fear on the part of the offenders. They
know our judicial system, they know the
political support they get and they know how
to get out of the punishment and therefore
there is this lack of fear in the atmosphere
created especially in India where they know
how to escape the law and avoid the
punishment. And it is this lack of fear which is
where I think we all have a major role to play. I
describe it as the lack of fear of God, and this is
totally in the influence of religion on people.
This influence is decreasing day by day, and
this is giving rise to increasing crime. I don't
know why, I always feel that when they do not
feel that they are doing something ultimately
wrong, (upar wale ko javab dena hai), that fear is
totally gone away. So we have to reestablish
the religious way of thinking, the fear of god
which people have totally done away with.
The one who has fear of god would never do
any such thing; forget about of the fear of
society, forget about the fear of court, forget
about the fear of police, we are talking about
the higher authority and the justice of the law
karma. The one who believes the law of karma
can never engage in these kind of activities. So
all these other sanctions, whether it is court of
law or society or whatever, all of them have
their own limitations and we know that they
are not working. The question is indeed about
Divine Justice. If we really bring people into
that level of the fear of god - upar wale ko jawab
dena hai - like in Islam they speak of - kayamat
Sammelan XIII - 1 : Jan - Mar 2016 u 10
key din jawab dena hai - so every religion has this
law of Karma, whichever religion you talk
about. So if that can be established properly,
the fear of god can be brought back to the
hearts of people. Muje bhagwan ko jawab dena
hai, aur kisi ko dena yana dena- So this can be
brought down to the people through
education. So those who are in the field of
education, should strive to give that feeling to
children right from the beginning, through
value education. That is where we can train the
child right from the beginning to respect
everyone without caste discrimination nor
religious discrimination. Value education, I
feel, will play a very important role in
changing the situation.
Q: Prosper: Is the divine justice, we are discussing,
in this life or only after this life? And the divine
mercy we are discussing, is it in this life or only
after this life?
A: Bomie: When we talked about Divine
Justice or Mercy, these are not only in this life
but beyond it also. All of us talk about that. It is
not only in the physical plane but also in the
spiritual plane. So whatever we do here in
terms of karma or bad deeds, we have to carry
forward after this life; that is why we can get
divine justice. So mercy is also in both the
places; we are looking at mercy in terms of
physical. When I do something wrong to you
then I talk about divine justice; but if by my
thought process I do wrong then I ask for
divine mercy; there is no other way I can ask
for mercy.
A : Maulana Zaheer Abbas: This you can see in
day to day life. We commit a lot of sin severy
day, but we are enjoying everything given by
God. He never withholds anything from us.
We are getting our food, getting our water,
after committing a lot of sins in this world. This
is a good example of mercy, that God does not
stop what he is giving to us. We must realize
what we are doing and what we are getting.
Q: Peter: Why is it that Religion is going down?
You also spoke of the need for education, but is
education, in fact, responsible for religion going
down? You say we need to be educated, they say we
need to be good people, but where is the God factor?
So, I have a simple question for all of you: Why is it
there no fear of religion, no fear of God in today's
society compared to yesteryears? Is education
responsible for that?
A: Fr. Caesar: The question is not very clear.
Really speaking, it is the religious practices
that are going down, and perhaps it could be a
good thing. It could be that there is less of
rituality and more of sincere religion, which
after all is believing in truth and justice; so that
could be a very good thing. If we are becoming
more educated and giving a secular
perspective, in that sense there could be less
religiosity and more genuine spirituality. I
would say that this is very good development.
A : Prof. Shilpa: I don't see it as a deterioration
in the religious perspective, because always
religion is considered important. But by
nature we are becoming more self-centered
with education, more competitive rather than
living in cooperation. And that is starting on
the level of the family. In the family itself,
parents are making their children more
competitive. They always want their child to
be first every where. And another thing is that
earlier there were many children, where they
learnt the concept of sharing things. Now there
is no one to share with; there are no cousins, no
family members, even to share in the same
event. So people are becoming more self
Sammelan XIII - 1 : Jan - Mar 2016 u 11
centered. Education is giving good values, but
this self centeredness, this loneliness is killing
our culture, and that is more the responsibility
of the entire society, the family setup, the
religious order. Leaders in every religion, I am
sure, are afraid why people are not coming to
the temples and churches, is it because they
don't have time, though they have time for
other things. It is not that earlier people had
more time and now we have no time. It is that
we are becoming so selfish, we have time for
ourselves, but we do not have time for others.
Q : Fr. Dolreich: You mentioned that people we do
not have time for church or for other religious
practices and Prof. Harsha also mentioned
sometime back that it is the lack of fear, of God that
is responsible in a certain way for increasing crime
taking place in our country. Now, in some
religions, namely, Christianity, Islam, and also in
Zoroastrianism, what sometimes puts fear in
people is the whole idea of hell. Is this good?
A: Bomie: In Zoroastrianism it is rather
complicated. We believe that the soul passes
through different stages in life. And when the
soul has done something wrong, in this life,
then the soul has to take rebirth and atone for
what it has done. It is an existence on various
levels, with each level to achieve a particular
goal. And therefore there is the concept of hell
but not in those very terms. It is a matter of
going from one plane to another, one level to
another. Can one remain on this earth
eternally? Yes, it could be!
Q : Fr. Dolreich : In the book of Genesis we read :
"God saw all that he had made and indeed it was
very good". Is "eternal hell" also included in the
good things that God has made in the beginning?
A : Fr. Caesar : On a personal note, I am always
scared of Fr. Dolreich! He was my student but
his questions used to make us go round in
circles! The Book of Genesis belongs to what is
called pre-history; it doesn't tell us about
historical events. History begins only with
Abraham 1800 yrs BC. Butyes, it does mention
about heaven and hell. So hell is what they call
a real possibility in the sense that it is there
somewhere to make us behave on this earth so
it is there as a kind of a threat. Whether there is
really somebody in hell or not, nobody is sure.
Not even whether Judas is in hell.
Q : Fr. Dolreich : Dr. Radhakrishnan, who was
the first President of India, made a critique of
Christianity saying that in Christianity you get
only one chance. If you do good you go to heaven
and if you do evil you go to hell. And the same in
Islam. Whereas in Hinduism and other religions
they speak of reincarnation. In this concept you find
a little more of compassion in that you get many
chances. Initially if you don't do well in this life
then you have the law of Karma take place and then
you get some more chances. The question that I am
wish to ask of religions that speak of karma, is what
motivation would be there for me for better behavior
in this life? I am sure that I can get some more
chances later on to redeem myself!
A : Prof. Harsha: Well he is a philosopher and it
is good to question and question. That is what
everyone should be doing all the time in this
scientific world. I feel we have to accept the
scriptures critically, as we have heard from Fr.
Caesar's speech. It does not really matter
whether you have the next birth or not,
because kya pata? kissne deka hai? And that is
what the younger generation is now-a-days
questioning: whenever you tell them
something, what is the proof? And we are
helpless, because we do not have proof
whether there is heaven or hell; whether there
Sammelan XIII - 1 : Jan - Mar 2016 u 12
is the next life. Therefore now-a-days there is
this questioning in every religion; it must
happen and it is good it is happening. We have
started saying, "Jo be swarghai sab yehi hai". It is
not only after death that we are going to get
whatever reward or punishment. For example
Valmiki, it was not after death he became
Valmiki; in this life itself jo be milana hai, yehi
milana hai. It becomes very speculative Milega
toh milega who knows? So to answer these
philosophical queries we will have to really
start reinterpreting the scriptures in such a
way that it serves the purpose for which they
were meant. The purpose is to guide humanity
in the direction of morality. And if that is the
purpose to be served, it does not really matter
whether you have one life or hundred lives.
What matters is that in this life with me at the
moment, I do not know whether I am going to
take birth again or not. But I have to be as
perfect as possible. Moksha as self-realization,
is now interpreted as self-actualization in this
life. You perfect yourself as much as possible
and actualize your potential, and that is the
ultimate goal of your life. So in that sense if we
reinterpret with evidence, almost all religions
will serve the purpose, otherwise religion is
becoming only dogmatic and rigid. Talk about
hell doesn't matter because ultimately what is
this whole concept of hell.... we should be
afraid of it and stop behaving in the wrong
manner, stop sinning. So the idea is like telling
the child to get out of the house…. We know we
are not going to do it but that has to be told to
the children in such a way that the child
really feels that "ho sakta hai. Agar woh darrra
hega; ho baccha control mein rahega; agar katam
ho jayega control chalajayega". So ultimately all
these theories whether there are n number of
lives or whether there is heaven or hell or
whatever, we cannot satisfy the rational
queries of the scientific minded people. What
we have to tell them is that irrespective of
the consequences we must be good.
Q : Sr. VandanaFHIC : In inter-faith marriages,
the children do not know which religion to
follow. So how can we give them the fear of God?
Often they grow up as atheists.
A : Prof. Harsha : Now here we have to reach a
particular point where we say, how does it
matter which religion the child belongs to?
Ultimately we all belong to the religion of
humanity. So we have to cross the borders. It is
already happening with inter-religious
marriages, and it is the best thing to happen. It
is the best way to go beyond our boundaries.
We can no longer remain in our own wells! You
know, in India we have this concept of
'kupanduk', which is the frog in the well! Now
all these years in traditional societies we were
all in our own wells and felt safe and secure,
and we thought that was the whole world. We
have now come out, with multi-cultural and
multi-religious societies in which we live. We
come out of our wells and we see totally
different kinds of people, rituals and
practices, and we start wondering "what will
happen to our culture"? But nowwe have to
cross the boundaries and assimilate a global
culture. We have actually reached the stage of
"Vasudeva kutumbakam", which means the
entire world is one family; and of course in the
family there are many differences and
everyone fits with each other. It is not that
everyone is same in the family; we are all
different and we adjust ourselves, we are
ready to compromise. If we can compromise
within the family then why can't we
compromise in society? So when the child says
I do not know what religion I belong to, it is
fine! Let him not belong to any organised
religion, but let him be religious, as Fr Caesar
Sammelan XIII - 1 : Jan - Mar 2016 u 13
said. Religiosity will come up in the child as an
urge from within. Even if the child ultimately
turns to atheism, the cultural and spiritual
need will come up and it will be satisfied, but
not with any particular religion. I like to refer
to two types of religion, one with a small 'r' and
the other with a capital 'R' which is like an
umbrella term including in itself all religions.
What ultimately matters is that the child
becomes a good human being. It does not
matter which path he chooses as we would talk
about different religions as different paths
leading to a common goal, of morality and
spirituality.
Concluding remarks: Fr. Dolreich
My dear friends, I must say that all of us have
partaken of a very rich and warm sharing by
all the panelists here. I would like to end with a
short story and a question. During one of his
wars, Napoleon was very angry when one of
the soldiers who had deserted his regiment
was brought in front of him; he went ahead
and gave his sentence. He said the soldier had
deserted his comrades fighting on the battle
field and that he deserved to die. The soldier's
mother came and pleaded with Napoleon, and
asked him to have mercy on her son, because
he was her only child. Napoleon retorted that
her son had deserted his comrades and so he
did not deserve mercy. The soldier's mother
quickly replied: "If mercy was deserved, it
would not be mercy."
As we leave this hall this evening, I would like
to leave you with this question: God has been
merciful to us; in what way can we be merciful like
God?
Transcription by
Fiona Fernandes, Marie D’Souza
A One - YearRUDIMENTARY COURSEinINTER-RELIGIOUS DIALOGUEfor Catholic Adults
Meant specially for :l
Communitiesl Parish IRD Cell
Membersl Teachers of Value Education
in Schools
Animators of Small Human
2016- 2017
Sammelan XIII - 1 : Jan - Mar 2016 u 14
Requirements
A Prayer Table covered with a table cloth.
A standing cross decorated with flowers.
Seasonal flowers well decorated around the
samai, and, if possible, around the hall.
A samai to be lit. Invite the
A Paschal candle with the Paschal candle stand.
Candles for everyone present.
Keep the Koran and ZendAvesta, the Holy Book of
the Parsees at hand.
English, Marathi and Hindi Bibles to be kept ready.
While the samai is being lit, the choir can sing the
hymn :
Let there be Light shared among us,
Let there be light in our eyes,
May now Your light sweep this nation,
Cause us to arise.….
Introduction
For Christians, Easter Sunday celebrates one of
the greatest days in the history of Christianity.
The great gift of Easter is hope - Christian hope
which makes us have that confidence in God, in
the ultimate triumph, and in God's goodness and
love, which nothing can shake. Easter
commemorates the beginning of new life and is
the most important Christian festival, and the
one celebrated with the greatest joy. Without
Easter there would be no Christianity. It forms
part of God's plan for the salvation of
humankind.
Silent reflection
Leader : We pray that the Easter light of life,
hope and joy, will live in us each day; and that we
will be bearers of that light into the lives of
others. Gracious God, we praise you for the light
of new life made possible in our world. We
praise you for the light of new life that continues
to shine in all our hearts today.
READINGS
Leader : In silence, we now listen to various
Readings from some Holy Scriptures.
dignitaries and the
Parish Priest to light the samai.
INTER-RELIGIOUS GATHERING FOR EASTERDeeJeMÙekeâleeSBcespeheesMe mes {keâer Skeâ cespe]hetâueeW mes mepee ngS Skeâ Ke[e ›etâmeSkeâ meceF& hetâueeW mes mepeer, nes mekesâ lees meYeeIej Yeer hetâueeW mes mepee nes ~ ØepJeefuele keâjves kesâ efueS Skeâ meceF& ~ Øeefleef‰le JÙeefòeâÙeeW leLee heuueer hegjesefnle keâes, Gmes ØepJeefuele
keâjves kesâ efueÙes Deecebef$ele keâerefpeÙes ~ heemkeâe keâer ceesceyeòeer, heemkeâe ceesceyeòeer kesâ mšQ[ kesâ meeLe ~ kegâjDeeve leLee heejefmeÙeeW keâe heefJe$e-«evLe pesvo-DeJemlee heeme nes ~ Deb«espeer, efnvoer leLee ceje"er yeeFefyeue lewÙeej jKeW]
meceF& keâes ØepJeefuele keâjles meceÙe ieeÙekeâJe=vo ØekeâeMe hej DeeOeeefjle keâesF& GheÙegòeâ Yepeve iee mekeâles nQ]
ØemleeJevee¡eermleerÙeeW kesâ efueÙes, F&mšj jefJeJeej keâe meceejesn, ¡eermleerÙe-Oece& kesâ Fefleneme ceW cenevelece efoveeW ceW mes Skeâ nw ~ F&mšj keâer ceneve osve nw DeeMee - ¡eermleerÙe DeeMee, nceW F&Õej ceW, Debeflece efJepeÙe ceW leLee F&Õej keâer oÙeeueglee Deewj Øesce ceW, Jen efJeÕeeme efoueeleer nw, efpemes keâesF& efnuee veneR mekeâlee ~ F&mšj, veJepeerJeve kesâ DeejcYe keâe mcejCeeslmeJe Deewj ¡eermleerÙeeW keâe meye mes DeefOekeâ cenlJehetCe& lÙeesnej nw, leLee yengle Deevevo hetJe&keâ ceveeÙee peelee nw ~ F&mšj kesâ keâejCe ner ¡eermleerÙe-Oece& nw ~ Ùen ceeveJe keâer cegefòeâ kesâ efueÙes, F&Õej keâer Ùeespevee keâe Skeâ Yeeie nw ~
ceewve cevevešerkeâekeâej : nce ØeeLe&vee keâjles nQ efkeâ F&mšj keâer peerJeve-pÙeesefle, DeeMee Deewj Øesce nj efove nceejs meeLe jns ; Deewj nce Gme pÙeesefle keâes, otmejeW kesâ peerJeve ceW ues peevesJeeues Jeenkeâ yeveWies ~ ns ke=âheeueg F&Õej ! nceejs mebmeej ceW veJeerve peerJeve keâer pÙeesefle keâes mebYeJe yeveeves kesâ efueÙes nce lesjer ØeMebmee keâjles nQ ~ nce veJeerve peerJeve keâer pÙeesefle kesâ efueÙes lesjer ØeMebmee keâjles nQ pees Deepe Yeer, nceejs peerJeve kesâ Ûecekeâ jner nw ~
hee" DeiegDee : Deye nce, Meevle nes keâj kegâÚ heefJe$e Oeeefce&keâ-«evLeeW kesâ efJeefYeVe hee" megveWies ~
Sammelan XIII - 1 : Jan - Mar 2016 u 15
Readings from the Holy Bible :
l John: 3 : 19-21 (in English.)
l Luke: 11 : 34-36 (in Marathi or Hindi)
Silent reflection.
Leader : We now hear a reading from The
Bhagavad Gita. (Arjuna to Krishna)
O Krishna, it is right that the world delights and
rejoices in your praise, that all the saints and
sages bow down to you and all evil flees before
you to the far corners of the universe.
How could they not worship you, O Lord? You
are the eternal spirit, who existed before Brahma
the creator and who will never cease to be, the
Lord of the gods, you are the abode of the
universe. Changeless, you are what is and what
is not, and beyond the duality of existence and
non-existence.
You are the first among gods, the timeless spirit,
the resting place of all beings. You are the knower
and the thing which is known. You are the final
home; within your infinite form you pervade the
cosmos.
You are Vayu, god of wind; Yama, god of death;
Agni, god of fire; Varuna, god of water. You are
the moon and the creator Prajapati, and the great-
grandfather of all creatures. I bow before you
and salute you again and again.
You are behind me and in front of me; I bow
to you on every side. Your power is
immeasurable. You pervade everything; you are
everything.
The Bhagavad Gita - 11:36-40
Silent reflection
Hymn: He is Lord, He is Lord, He is risen from
the dead and He is Lord.
The Ayat an-Nur (Arabic: "the Sign of Light") is the
40th verse of the 24th sura of the Qur'an, Suraan-
Nur.
Or like utter darkness in the deep sea: there
covers it a wave above which is another wave,
above which is a cloud, layers of utter darkness
heefJe$e yeeFefyeue mes hee"l Ùeesnve 3 : 19-21 Deb«espeer ceWl uetkeâme 11: 34 - 36 ceje"er Ùee efnvoer ceW
ceewve cevevešerkeâekeâej : Deye nce YeieJeodieerlee mes hee" megveWiesDepeg&ve ves keâne - ns ke=â<Ce ~ Deehe kesâ veece kesâ ßeJeCe mes mebmeej nef<e&le neslee nw Deewj meYeer ueesie Deehekesâ Øeefle Devegjòeâ nesles nQ ~ ÙeÅeefhe efmeæ heg®<e Deehe keâes vecemkeâej keâjles nQ, efkeâvleg DemegjieCe YeÙeYeerle nQ Deewj FOej-GOej Yeeie jns nQ ~
ns ØeYeg ~ Deehe yeÇÿee mes Yeer yeÌ{keâj nQ, Deehe Deeefo œe°e nQ, lees efheâj Jes Deehekeâes meeoj vecemkeâej keäÙeeW ve keâjW? ns Devevle, ns osJesMe, ns peieefVeJeeme ! Deehe hejce œeesle, keâejCeeW kesâ keâejCe leLee Fme Yeeweflekeâ peiele mes Yejs nQ ~
Deehe Deeefo osJe, meveeleve heg®<e leLee Fme ÂMÙepeiele kesâ hejce DeeßeÙe nQ ~ Deehe meye kegâÚ peevevesJeeues nQ Deewj Deehe ner, Jen meye kegâÚ nQ, pees peeveves ÙeesiÙe nw ~ Deehe Yeeweflekeâ iegCeeW mes hejce DeeßeÙe nQ ~ ns Devevle ¤he ~ Ùen mechetCe& ÂMÙepeie Deehemes JÙeehle nw ~
Deehe JeeÙeg nQ leLee hejce efveÙevlee Yeer nQ ~ Deehe Deefive nQ, peue nQ leLee Ûevõcee nQ ~ Deehe Deeefo peerJe yeÇÿee nQ Deewj Deehe Øeefheleecen nQ ~ Dele: Deehe keâes npeej yeej vecemkeâej nw Deewj hegve: hegve: vecemkeâej nw ~
Deehe keâes Deeies heerÚs leLee ÛeejeW Deesj mes vecemkeâej ~ ns Demeerce Meefòeâ ~ Deehe Devevle heje›eâce kesâ mJeeceer nQ ~ Deehe meJe&JÙeeheer nQ, Dele: Deehe meye kegâÚ nQ ~
YeieJeodieerlee 11:36-40
ceewve ceveveYepeve : Jen ØeYeg nw Jen peer G"e nw (Ùee keâesF& GheÙegòeâ Yepeve)
kegâjDeeve keâer metjn Deve vetj (pÙeesefle keâe efÛevnb) keâer ÛeueermeJeeR DeeÙele
Ùee efHeâj pewmeer DeeBefOeÙeeefjÙeeB nQ, Skeâ ienjs mecegõ ceW~ efpemehej Skeâ uenj ÚeF& nw, Gmekesâ Thej Skeâ Deewj uenj , Gmekesâ Thej yeeoue~ len -hej len DeBefOeÙeejerÙeeB peceer nQ~ peye Dehevee neLe efvekeâeues lees Gmes osKe ve heeÙes~ efpemes Deuueen ves ØekeâeMe ve efoÙee, Gmekesâ efueÙes keâesF& ØekeâeMe veneR~
Sammelan XIII - 1 : Jan - Mar 2016 u 16
one above another; when he holds out his hand,
he is almost unable to see it; and to whomsoever
Allah does not give light, he has no light.
Silent reflection
The Hymns of Zarathustra. Ahunuvaiti Gatha,
Yasna 31 (Stanza 7)
He who in the First Beginning thus thought: Let
the glorious heavens be clothed in light; He by
His supreme understanding created the
principles of Truth and Light; Enabling mortals
thereby to maintain the Good Mind. O Wise
Lord, O ever-the-same Ahura, by Thy Holy Spirit
make these realms flourish.
Silent reflection
INTERCESSIONS
Leader : Dear brothers and sisters, God in his
infinite wisdom has put us in a world where
people of all faiths, religions, castes, and creeds
live. Help us to make this world a place to live in
peace and harmony. Heavenly Father listen to
our prayers and yearnings.
Response : O God of the Universe be our help
and guide.
1. We pray for the gift of love for the people of
the whole world. Res.
2. We pray for people who work for peace, not
war. Res.
3. We pray for our leaders that they work for the
good of our nation. Res.
4. We pray for women who are victims of
atrocities. Res.
5. We pray for all our children that they become
responsible citizens of this great country.
Res.
Leader : O Almighty and merciful God, you have
always helped us whenever we have called to
you. Stand at our side at all moments of our life.
Be with us and guide us at every moment of our
life. Be our help and guiding light now and
forever.
End with a suitable Bhajan.
John A. Misquitta
Kalyan (West)
ceewve ceveve peejeLegmleje kesâ Yepeve, DengvegJeeÙeleer ieeLee, Ùeemevee 31(heo 7)Jen, efpemeves ØeLece Meg¤Deele ceW Leer meesÛee: ÙeMemJeer mJeieeX ceW pÙeesefle keâe peeS; Gmeves Deheveer hejce mecePeoejer mes melÙe Deewj pÙeeesefle kesâ efmeæeòeeW keâer jÛevee keâer; leeefkeâ cejCeMeerue Deewj DeÛÚs ceve keâes keâeÙece jKe mekeWâ~ ns efJeJeskeâer ØeYeg ! ns meoe meceeve Dentje! heefJe$e Deelcee kesâ Éeje Fve #es$eeW keâes Heâueves- Hetâueves os~
ceewve ceveve ceOÙemLeleeSB
DeiegDee: efØeÙe YeeFÙees Deewj yenvees ~ F&Õej ves Deheves Demeerce efJeJeskeâ Éeje nceW Fme mebmeej ceW jKee, ÙeneB meye OeceeX efJeÕeemeeW peeefleÙees b Deewj celeeW kesâ ueesie jnles nQ ~ nceW Fme mebmeej keâes Ssmeer peien yeveeves ceW meneÙelee os, peneB meye Meebefle Deewj cesue efceueehe mes jn mekeWâ ~ ns mJeieeaÙe efhelee nceejer ØeeLe&veeDeeW Deewj ueeuemeeDeeW hej OÙeeve os ~
peyeeye : ns meejs efJeÕe kesâ F&Õej, nceejer meneÙelee Je nceeje ceeie&oMe&ve keâj1. nce meejs mebmeej kesâ ueesieeW kesâ efueS ØeeLe&vee keâjles nQ efkeâ Jes
Øesce keâe oeve heeSB peJeeye: 2. nce Gve ueesieeW keâes efueS ØeeLe&vee keâjles nQ pees Ùegæ kesâ efueS
veneR Meebefle kesâ efueS keâeÙe& keâjles nw~ peJeeye: 3. nce Deheves vesleeDeeW kesâ efueÙes ØeeLe&veekeâjles nQ efkeâ Jes je°^ keâer
YeueeF& kesâ keâeÙe& keâjW ~ peJeeye: 4. nce Gve efŒeÙeeW kesâ efueÙes ØeeLe&vee keâjles nQ pees DelÙeeÛeej men
jneR nw~ peJeeye: 5. nce meye yeÛÛeeW kesâ efueÙes ØeeLe&vee keâjles nQ efkeâ Je Fme ceneve
osMe kesâ efpeccesoej veeieefjkeâ yeveW~ peJeeye:
DeiegDee : ns meJe&Meefòeâceeve Deewj oÙeeueg F&Õej~ peye Yeer nceves legPes hegkeâeje, letves nceejer meneÙelee keâer, peerJeve kesâ nj heue ceW nceejs heeme jn~ nceejs peerJeve ceW meoe nceejs meeLe jnkeâj, nceeje ceeie&oMe&ve keâj~ Deepe Deewj meoe nceejer meneÙelee keâj Deewj nceejer ceeie&oMe&ve keâer pÙeesefle yeve pee ~
Deble ceW keâesF& GheÙegòeâ Yepeve
DevegJeeokeâ : heer. Skeäme. mJeeceerceerje jes[ (hetJe&)
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