d i a l o g u e€¦ · d i a l o g u e the bombay archdiocesan commission for inter-religious ......

D I A L O G U E

The Bombay Archdiocesan Commission for Inter-Religious Dialogue

President : Cardinal Oswald Gracias

Secretary : Fr. Aniceto Pereira

Office Add. : St. Andrew’s Educational Foundation Trust, St. Dominic Road, Bandra, Mumbai - 400 050

Telephone : 26514547 Website : www.archbomird.org

Email : [email protected]

Members : Dr. (Mrs) Valerie D’Souza, Ernest Fernandes, John Misquitta, Silvie Joseph, Noella Colaco, Maria Pinto, Rita D’Silva and Joseph Gaikwad

Admin Assts. : Marie D’Souza, Thelma Cardoz

Printed at : Ganesh Offset, Dadar, Mumbai - 400 028. Tel.: 2437 8688

Vol. XIII No. 1 Jan - Mar. 2016

1. Divine Mercy & Divine Justice : A Dialectic Fr. Aniceto Pereira 2

Editorial

2. Need we fear Divine Justice ? Thelma Cardoz 3Introduction of the discussion theme

3. Reflections on Mercy Transcription by 4by Representatives of Different Religions Fiona Fernandes(including photo feature by Peter de Souza) Thelma Cardoz,

John Misquitta

4. Questions and Answers Transcription by 9from the Audience Fiona Fernandes,

Marie D’Souza

Inter-Religious Gathering for Easter John Misquitta 14

F&mšj kesâ efueÙes Devlej-Oece& yew"keâ heer. Skeäme. mJeeceer

Proceedings of the

INTER RELIGIOUS CELEBRATION OF THE YEAR OF MERCYAT MOUNT MARY BASILICA, BANDRA

on 19th February 2016

Happy Easter

May The Risen Lord Bless You All

Sammelan XIII - 1 : Jan - Mar 2016 u 2

Editorial

DIVINE MERCY &

JUSTICE : A DIALECTICIn this year of mercy, announced by the Holy

Father (Dec 2015 – Nov 2016), we are being

invited to come to the well-spring of God's

mercy, and to proclaim it to all those who

sincerely wish to return to God's forgiving

love. In all religions, however, the requirement

of following God's commandments is

accompanied by an idea of his justice, with a

reward to those who are obedient to him, and

severe consequences for those who are

disobedient. Religions provide different

descriptions of these consequences, and an

exploration of these differences can lead to a

greater appreciation of God's mercy and the

conditions for a deeper experience of it.

With this in mind, the Mount Mary Basilica

IRD Cell organized a discussion on divine thjustice and mercy on 19 February 2016 in the

Mount Mary Convent Hall from 4 pm to 6 pm.

This issue of Sammelan is dedicated to this

thought-provoking gathering and comprises a

transcription of the speeches of various

speakers.

It was very obvious that there was a clear

division between the “Karmic” religions

represented on the dais , Hinduism,

Zoroastrianism and Jainism (even though,

Jainism does not admit the concept of a creator

god), and the “non-Karmic” religions, namely

Islam and Christianity. The Karmic religions

approached the dilemma between divine

justice and mercy as a limitless opportunity to

w o r k o n e ' s w a y t o m o k s h a . T h e

representatives of non-Karmic religions

accepted that the offer of salvation is once for

all, but that divine grace is there to help the

soul enter paradise. For both ideologies, the

ultimate question still remains: will God judge

any weak or unrepentant soul severely, and

remand him or her eternally to hell? Either way

we end up with a dilemma: is God just and

unbiased (and therefore holding out the threat

of hell) or is he merciful to all (irrespective of

human goodness).

Cardinal Walter Kasper, in his now famous

book MERCY, grapples with this controversy

and explains that God's mercy does not entail

by-passing human freedom. “Both divine

freedom and human freedom are a mystery,

explains Cardinal Kasper. Their relation to

each other is, a fortiori, and unfathomable

mystery, which we cannot penetrate. The only

answer open to us, on the basis of biblical

testimony, is unconditional trust in the

immeasurable mercy of God, who knows

ways, inscrutable to us, and who never ceases

to court human beings and to make their

positive response attractive”. (Mercy, St. Paul's,

2015 , pg. 153).

The Christian faith thus places the soul deep

within the confines of a dialectic at work,

tossed between hope of heaven and the fear of

hell. On the one hand the offer of heaven

encourages the soul to trust in God's mercy; on

the other, the fear of hell needs to be

experienced as an urgent appeal to conversion.

However, it would not be right to give equal

weightage to the unconditional offer of

salvation by God and the human being's

rejection of this offer. The preeminence of

divine mercy must be acknowledged. It is the

uniqueness of the Christian faith to hold that

Jesus Christ has died for all on the cross, and is

indeed a gracious judge.

Fr. Aniceto PEREIRA


The Mount Mary Basilica IRD Cell is one of the

many cells operating in the Archdiocese,

under the inspiration and animation of the

Archdiocesan Commission for IRD. The Cell

members invest a great amount of time and

energy to build, on behalf of the Mount Mary

Basilica, profound relationship with people of

other faiths, and also with the leaders and

authorities of religious shrines. These

relationships also give rise to common

activities, sometimes organised by the

Basilica, with people of other faiths

participating in them. At other times the cell

members attend similar IRD functions

organised by others.

As we are in the season of lent within the Year

of Mercy declared by the Holy Father, the

Mount Mary IRD Cell taught it would be

appropriate to have a special event celebrating

Mercy with people of other faiths thus on 19th

February 2016 representatives of different

religions were invited to share their

perspectives on Mercy particularly exploring

the following theme: "IN ALL RELIGIONS,

BELIEF IN THE GOOD NEWS OF DIVINE

MERCY AS RENDERED DIFFICULT

BECAUSE OF THE BAD NEWS OF DIVINE

JUSTICE." So on behalf of Mt. Mary Inter

Religious Dialogue Cell and Fr. Aniceto

Pereira, the Archdiocesan Commission Head,

she once again welcomed the gathering.

As we know Mercy is a force that overcomes

everything. The moment we forgive, we also

receive God's Mercy. Mercy is therefore being

loved forever despite of our sinfulness. In

mercy - how much God loves us and that is the

reason why we have gathered together as one

family knowing that God is merciful

NEED WE FEAR DIVINE JUSTICE ?

irrespective of our caste, creed or religion. Pope

Francis had declared the year of Mercy by

opening the holy door of St. Peter's Basilica in

Rome on 8th December 2015. Mount Mary's

had a beautiful opening of the Door of Mercy on

20th December 2015. The gathering thus began

with the presentation of a video report of Pope

Francis visiting a Synagogue in Rome on 20th

January 2016, and a mercy hymn composed

and video graphed by the youth of I.C. Church,

Borivli.

Fr. Aniceto Pereira - Head Commission was

invited to welcome the guests and the

participants who also gave his thoughts of

Mercy and said "To be Religious is to be inter-

religious" - and need to connect with people of

other faiths regarding the issues of the faiths.

He introduced the anchor person Fr. Dolreich -

Master of Philosophy (Paris).

Fr. Dolreich - put his thoughts saying, "Justice

can be defined as doing what is right and Mercy

as doing what is kind. If justice is giving what is

due and mercy is overlooking what is due -

Justice and Mercy are contradictory terms". We

can also say that some people are kinder and

some are wicked. It is natural to say that God

should treat them according to their merits. He

then introduced the eminent speakers : Prof.

Harsha Badkar (Head of Philosophy Dept.,

Wilson College) - Hindu Perspective; Prof.

Shilpa Chheda (Curator, Heras Institute) - Jain

Perspective; Maulana Zaheer Abbas Rizvi

(Religious Scholar and Writer) - Muslim

Perspective; Mr. Bomie Doctor (Marketing

Consultant) - Zoroastrian Perspective; and

Fr. Caesar D'Mello (Professor of Moral

Theology) - Christian Perspective.

Thelma Cardoz


First Speaker: MR. BOMI DOCTOR

Mercy is known as 'Merez' it comes from the

holy gathas that are the teachings of

Zarathustra in poetic form. It appears in the

forms of Merezdatha i.e. giving or the

outpouring of mercy; it also appears in the

form of Merez Nikka, a pouring forth of

forgiveness and mercy grace. Mercy is to get

out of the cycle of Karma. It is to go through the

mechanical circle of nature and ascend to a

higher plane where they become a part or a

participant of a higher providence. This mercy

and grace of higher providence is for all

creation; we are not only looking at human

beings but we are looking at all creation over

here, and that's what we believe in. We receive

it according to our sincere aspirations and our

openness. It is our duty to advance this by

actively seeking aasha; aasha means

righteousness and truth.

But the consequences of our actions are fixed

and if we die there is no mercy for any misdeed

that we have committed. If we have created a

misdeed in our life, there are going to be

consequences. Going ahead my question is 'to

what extent?' and 'how do we get this?' Mercy

is given only if we repent for what we have

done. So the question comes in here. When we

realise the harm we have done to another

human being or any of God's creation, and we

truly repent for it in our hearts and in our

minds, then the consequences will reduce with

repentance. Its only when we realise that we

have harmed or done wrong to somebody and

we truly repent then we can ask for mercy.

In Zoroastrianism repentance is called

'Patetti'. The last day of the Zoroastrian year is

called 'Patetti'. Many people wish each other

REFLECTIONS ON MERCY

'Patetti Mubarak' but to us that is a wrong thing

to do, because Patet is a day of repentance.

Once you repent, the next day you start the

New Year. So we do have a day of repentance

where we can lessen our guilt and lessen the

consequences of what we have done in the past

one year. We can do this prayer of 'Patetti' when

we are alive or when the soul has departed

from our lives from this materialistic world.

When the ceremonial prayer is conducted to

ask for mercy it is known as 'Patet Paschimani;

that is we pray for forgiveness, for repentance,

for any bad thing we have done for any person

in our lives, and also for ourselves.

We also pray for the departed souls and for that

the prayer is called 'Patet Ravani; wherever the

souls are we pray for them that they may get a

better passage to the eternal world of the souls.

We believe that on the 4th day after the person

expires is Judgement Day. On that day the soul

reaches a particular plain where it is judged.

We as humans sitting here do not know where

the soul has reached or to what plane or level he

has reached. Well, in order for it to proceed or

to go higher plane we pray for the departed

soul so that it gets forgiveness from the divine

Lord, from the 'Ahura Mazdah'. Then it can go

higher in its quest of the next life.

A Zoroastrian goal is to be a good human being

and that's why we believe in the concept of:

Good Thoughts, Good Words & Good Deeds.

Words and deeds are basically materialistic.

We can harm people by our words, we can

harm people by our deeds; and when we do

that its always written down that I have

harmed somebody so therefore we have got to

be punished somewhere or the other. I can also

ask the person if I have wronged you for


something, please forgive me; and if you have

mercy on me you will forgive me, so here my

guilt becomes less and the consequences

become less. But what is the foundation of all

this? The root cause of all this is good or bad

thoughts! What happens then? Because it's in

our thoughts, not in our words or actions. So

now too can we ask for forgiveness? We have

found a way of doing that, by repenting for

our thoughts and by doing good to others. So

for us in Zoroastrianism its mainly that we

need to follow the 3 Pillars of: Good Thoughts,

Good Words & Good Deeds. Once you do that

you repent and mercy is given. This is what we

firmly believe in.

Second Speaker: MS. SHILPA CHEDDA

Before beginning on the topic of Mercy &

Divine Justice I would like to tell you that in

the Jain tradition we believe that God is not the

creator of the universe, and the people who

are venerated in the Jain tradition are like the

prophets or like the teachers who teach the

path to 'Moksh', and they teach us how to get

liberation from the cycle of birth and death.

So there is a basic difference between the

atheistic tradition and the Jain religion,

where we do not have divine intervention.

It's basically the theory of 'Karma'. So our

every action, reaction in our life is given by

your own action and you are paid for

whatever you have sown. So the question of

mercy will not arise because God does not

arise in the Jain tradition.

In Jain tradition gods are those who live in the

celestial world and the people who are

venerated in the temples are prophets and

they are venerated because of their qualities.

They themselves have renounced the world.

It is not that we ask for their justice or any

kind of mercy from them because they only

show us the path that helps us how to get rid

of the deeds in the life. So the entire concept

of mercy does not exist because we know

that if we do something we need to pay for it.

And that repayment may not be only in

this life but also the next life. Since we

believe in the theory of 'Karma' and 'aatma' we

also believes in rebirth and 'moksh'. It has

always been considered that the soul is in

bondage. So when the soul is in bondage then

you have to get rid of that bondage of the

'Karma'. Once you get rid of the 'Karma' then

you will attain 'moksh'. So this process of

getting rid of 'Karma', this path is shown by all

the tirthankaras. These 'tirthankaras’ do not

interfere in anybody's life because they have

not created it. They are just showing us the

path. Whatever we do we know that one day

we are going to get its reward or punishment.

So all the Jain scriptures shows us how to live a

good life, how to do good actions and how we

go through the cycle of birth and death. Hence

we do not have that grace of God that will help

us in overcoming this. The prophets show us

what we have to do. They tell us that the power

of discernment through the 'Viveka Buddhi'.

We follow them to know what they have done

and the path that they have followed and so,

for us, they are the heroes. We follow them to

see what they have done in their lives and how

they have overcome all the obstacles by

enjoying the karmas and not letting be bound

by them. We have to get rid of the bad things so

that we do not have to face the Karmas. And

hence the entire path will focus on your deeds,

how you do what you do and how you behave.

So again what is common in all the religions

is to keep 'Good Thoughts, Good Words &

Good Deeds. So ultimately you reduce the

entire Jain way of life into 3 words that is

in: 'Ahimsa' (non - violence), non - possession

and non - absolutism. So when you look at any

perspective you think that you are not the


person to judge who is right and who is

wrong. You may understand the perspective

of others, you may respect their perspective

and understand the situation. Every time a

person may not be right or wrong but we need

to understand the other person’s perspective

and in that sense in the Jain tradition we

focus more on the path of mercy and that

always will be connected to the karmas. The

way you behave in society you will know

what will be the result for that. You don't

have to be dependent on anybody else who

will give you any grace, or any concession but

it is you only who will understand. If I have

harmed anybody, if I have tortured anybody,

the same person or the same being will be

doing that with me in the same birth or in the

next birth. The intensity and the duration with

which you have attached the karma in the

same way you will be rewarded, there will not

be any plus or minus, or you cannot overcome

that particular action in any ways. You will

have to undergo that part of pleasure and

pain. That is what Jainism says.

Third Speaker : PROF. HARSHA BADKAR

I am grateful to the leadership of Pope Francis,

as we have seen how important it is in today's

time to relate to the other religions. In today's

time of pluralism we cannot really escape

coexisting with the people of other religions

and therefore this kind of forum is really

important because we try and understand the

emotions, the sentiments of each other, and

that is the only way in which we can exist

peacefully. That is the real meaning of

coexistence, because we can sometimes exist

together without talking to each other and

being concerned about each other, but that is

not what coexist is about. When we relate to

each other, we understand each other it is then

that the love that is created for each other

becomes the base for the mutual coexistence.

So I think this is a very good gesture on the part

of the leader Pope Francis; and the effects that

it has already created and taken up like going

to the synagogue and trying to talk about the

mistakes of the past and trying to move ahead

is good. That's true repentance. When we

make a mistake we should make it public and

tell the people that yes we have made a mistake

and we are sorry we will not do it again.

Even in Hinduism when we talk about mercy

we talk about Karuna, we talk about God's

Krupa. Its like how we say, "Upparwala ki

krupa ho toh har bigdi bat ban jayengi" (if it's

the will of God all the ruined things will start to

get better). We are so hopeful we know that

God’s love is endless, we know that there is no

limit to God's love and it's like the love that the

father has for his child. The father is always

willing to forgive the child when the child does

something wrong because ultimately the child

is innocent, the child has not done anything

wrong deliberately. So this kind of mercy of

the father towards the child is what we also

expect from our God. It's the same kind of

feeling that we also have in Hinduism. All the

wrong things that are happening to us can be

set right with his mercy.

Fourth Speaker : MAULANA ZAHEER

ABBAS RIZVI (Spoke in Hindi)

Bismillah Irahaman Irahim.

Ladies and gentlemen the topic is the need of

the hour. Today, it is necessary that we discuss

such topics because of the problems that the

world is facing. You know that there is a lot of

unrest and problems in the world today. Man

is unwilling to understand another human

being. We have become victims of an identity

crisis. We are passing through such great

identity crisis that we are unwilling to


recognize our fellow human beings. It is very

nice, that we are talking on such a subject that

is much related to us.

The topic is Mercy and Divine Mercy. What is

mercy? And what is repentance? I am

listening to the concept of mercy. I think the

concepts are more or less the same in all

religions, with few differences. And the

difference is more of language. I am talking

Urdu, Hindi, Hindustani. Someone talks in

English, Gujarati. They are using these words

as part of their vocabulary. And when these

words are used, we may be confused as we

may not be used to those words. We may

come to the conclusion that the thought put

forward is different. And we think that it is

difference of faith. I tell you very honestly, that

as I was listening to the various learned

speakers here that we are not used to these

words. Concepts more or less are the same;

there is no difference. Mercy touches human

lives. Mercy is very natural in human beings.

People of all creeds, castes, colour have mercy

in them. Mercy is present in animals too. See

the mother animal even she shows mercy on

her tender baby. This is very natural in human

beings also. There is mercy somewhere or the

other in the world.

Man has mercy on himself, his children,

family members. When the canvas of mercy

enlarges, it moves from the home and it comes

out of the door into the neighbourhood, and

there to the king's castle and from there it

moves to the city and to the country at large.

This is a very natural thing. When human

beings become the creators of their own

children, mercy is shown to them. Every son

and daughter is the offspring of the parents.

Being the creator of our own children we love

our children. How is it possible, then, that

parents will not show love and mercy on their

children? It is possible that there could be a

difference in certain human beings. But, a

dialogue can be had on this topic. It happens

that the child has come into the world because

of the love of the parents. The child has come

from the womb of the mother. Do you think

that the one who has created this universe will

not love all his creation? Surely, the Creator

will love his creation.

But, there is a limit to this mercy. Yes, there is a

limit to the mercy of God. If we think that God

is merciful, therefore I can do what I want,

then, we are sadly mistaken. God will judge us

by our deeds.

Fifth Speaker : FR. CAESAR D’MELLO

It has been very enlightening listening to the

different religious perspectives on divine

mercy in relationship with justice, and even

though, as the previous speaker noted, the

concepts are very similar yet they also have

differences. Listening to the Jain perspective,

Muslim perspective and Hindu perspective

was most interesting and enlightening. So it is

my job to speak on the Christian perspective. I

want to present to you three scenarios and

draw lessons from them to highlight the

conflicts between Mercy and Justice.

The first scenario is taken from the Gospel of

John chp 8 where Jesus is teaching his

disciples, and all of a sudden the Pharisees and

the Scribes come bringing with them a woman.

They throw the woman in front of Jesus telling

him, “This woman was caught in the act of

adultery. Moses and the law order us to stone

this woman. What do you say?” Of course they

want to trap him. Jesus looks at the woman and

the people accusing her and then says, “the

person is who is without sin may cast the first


stone.” The gospel tells us that one by one they

dropped the stones beginning with the eldest,

and went away. Then Jesus looked up at them

and saw no one except the woman. He asks her,

“nobody condemned you?” She said, “no”.

“Neither will I condemn you. Go and sin no

more”. So the Pharisees and the scribes were

quoting justice according to the law of Moses

by which this woman should be stoned. But it

is questionable whether that would be just

because the woman was to be stoned, yet

nothing was said about the man who most

probably might have been more responsible.

But Jesus found the way out. For him what

mattered most was the heart of this woman.

She was repentant, and so his answer was 'go

and sin no more'. So we see Jesus finding a kind

of a middle way between justice and mercy.

The Second Scenario is the time when once

again Jesus tells the people he is addressing 'we

have heard that it was said to our ancestors, an

eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” (which is the

law of Talion). Gandhi once wisely remarked

that if we really follow this law, in a short time

everyone in society will be toothless and blind.

So Jesus says“this is what you heard, but what I

tell you is something different. If somebody

slaps you on one cheek offer him the other as

well, and if somebody takes your shirt give him

your cloak as well; if somebody asks you to go

one mile you offer to go a second mile”. This is

a totally different approach; the approach of

love and mercy going far behind the law. This

was the way where Jesus found the answer to

this problem of justice and mercy.

But there still remains the third scenario taken

from the gospel of Matthew chp. 25, the scene

of last judgment. The king is seated on his

throne and the angels come and divide the

sheep from the goats; good from the bad, and

he tells the good people “come blessed of my

father into the kingdom which was prepared

for you from all eternity”. And to the evil he

will say “depart from me to hell and eternal

punishment”. Now for us the question is how

can there be reconciliation between God

whom we know a God of love and eternal

damnation, hell. I remember my father who

was quite a thinker himself said, I cannot

accept the god of love and mercy sending

people to eternal damnation. I am sure that

many of you feel the same. So when I checked

with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it

says that we have to believe the existence of

hell as well as heaven. We must also remember

the biblical writers lived in a three tiered

understanding of the universe: heaven above,

earth, and sheol under the earth. We have to

better understand the existence of hell and

eternal life. Eternal separation from God is the

real hell. We are called to live with

responsibility in making our choices between

good and evil, right and wrong. To be

separated from God is eternal damnation.

Pope Francis’ latest book “The Name of God Is

Mercy”emphasizes again and again that God

is a God of Mercy, God of love.

I think there cannot be a real contradiction

between divine justice and divine mercy. It is

an apparent contradiction. And in his book

“Situation Ethics” Joseph Fletcher says that

actually Justice and love are the same, they are

interchangeable, justice is love distributed, or

in another way justice is love standing on its

head. So there is no contradiction between

divine justice and divine mercy; it is a way of

looking at it!

Transcription by

Fiona Fernandes, Thelma Cardoz,

John Misquitta


QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

Q : Sr. Pauline DSP : In the context of the

escalating violence against innocent people,

particularly dalits, and sexual violence against

women and children, the guilty are actually not

adequately punished, nor do they repent. There is a

conflict between the judicial system and the

Human Rights Activists. How can we strike a

balance between justice and mercy in such cases?

A: Prof. Shilpa: Injustice against dalits is a

more regional issue, and so we have to

investigate the local problem; it cannot be

generalized. But against women and children

what abuses are happening, one thing is clear

that for real justice it all depends on evidence.

These issues are our own affairs, in the

families, in society, in the area, in the village; so

we should rather look at the problem and try to

solve it. We have these problems more, of

course, in the cities; but they have a different

connotation in the villages where it mixes with

many political issues. It is not only a social or

religious matter, these issues are made much

more vibrant just for the political profit. But if

you really want to change in society, one has to

examine that particular issue and educate the

people, instead of going for judicial remedy. If

the matter reaches court then you have all

other lobbies like the village panchayat.

However there is also the strong lobby now-a-

days of women who are taking part in the

decision making. They should be allowed to

sort out these matters in that particular area. If

you look at all these problems as national

problems, then of course there won't be a

common answer; we have to see these as

regional issues.

A: Prof. Harsha: I see it slightly differently

from Shilpa. She is looking at it as a local issue.

I feel it is a global issue. I will explain myself.

Basically I think there is an increase in the

crime rate, in the abuse of women and

children, also crimes against the lower caste,

the untouchables, dalits. The way I see it is the

lack of fear on the part of the offenders. They

know our judicial system, they know the

political support they get and they know how

to get out of the punishment and therefore

there is this lack of fear in the atmosphere

created especially in India where they know

how to escape the law and avoid the

punishment. And it is this lack of fear which is

where I think we all have a major role to play. I

describe it as the lack of fear of God, and this is

totally in the influence of religion on people.

This influence is decreasing day by day, and

this is giving rise to increasing crime. I don't

know why, I always feel that when they do not

feel that they are doing something ultimately

wrong, (upar wale ko javab dena hai), that fear is

totally gone away. So we have to reestablish

the religious way of thinking, the fear of god

which people have totally done away with.

The one who has fear of god would never do

any such thing; forget about of the fear of

society, forget about the fear of court, forget

about the fear of police, we are talking about

the higher authority and the justice of the law

karma. The one who believes the law of karma

can never engage in these kind of activities. So

all these other sanctions, whether it is court of

law or society or whatever, all of them have

their own limitations and we know that they

are not working. The question is indeed about

Divine Justice. If we really bring people into

that level of the fear of god - upar wale ko jawab

dena hai - like in Islam they speak of - kayamat


key din jawab dena hai - so every religion has this

law of Karma, whichever religion you talk

about. So if that can be established properly,

the fear of god can be brought back to the

hearts of people. Muje bhagwan ko jawab dena

hai, aur kisi ko dena yana dena- So this can be

brought down to the people through

education. So those who are in the field of

education, should strive to give that feeling to

children right from the beginning, through

value education. That is where we can train the

child right from the beginning to respect

everyone without caste discrimination nor

religious discrimination. Value education, I

feel, will play a very important role in

changing the situation.

Q: Prosper: Is the divine justice, we are discussing,

in this life or only after this life? And the divine

mercy we are discussing, is it in this life or only

after this life?

A: Bomie: When we talked about Divine

Justice or Mercy, these are not only in this life

but beyond it also. All of us talk about that. It is

not only in the physical plane but also in the

spiritual plane. So whatever we do here in

terms of karma or bad deeds, we have to carry

forward after this life; that is why we can get

divine justice. So mercy is also in both the

places; we are looking at mercy in terms of

physical. When I do something wrong to you

then I talk about divine justice; but if by my

thought process I do wrong then I ask for

divine mercy; there is no other way I can ask

for mercy.

A : Maulana Zaheer Abbas: This you can see in

day to day life. We commit a lot of sin severy

day, but we are enjoying everything given by

God. He never withholds anything from us.

We are getting our food, getting our water,

after committing a lot of sins in this world. This

is a good example of mercy, that God does not

stop what he is giving to us. We must realize

what we are doing and what we are getting.

Q: Peter: Why is it that Religion is going down?

You also spoke of the need for education, but is

education, in fact, responsible for religion going

down? You say we need to be educated, they say we

need to be good people, but where is the God factor?

So, I have a simple question for all of you: Why is it

there no fear of religion, no fear of God in today's

society compared to yesteryears? Is education

responsible for that?

A: Fr. Caesar: The question is not very clear.

Really speaking, it is the religious practices

that are going down, and perhaps it could be a

good thing. It could be that there is less of

rituality and more of sincere religion, which

after all is believing in truth and justice; so that

could be a very good thing. If we are becoming

more educated and giving a secular

perspective, in that sense there could be less

religiosity and more genuine spirituality. I

would say that this is very good development.

A : Prof. Shilpa: I don't see it as a deterioration

in the religious perspective, because always

religion is considered important. But by

nature we are becoming more self-centered

with education, more competitive rather than

living in cooperation. And that is starting on

the level of the family. In the family itself,

parents are making their children more

competitive. They always want their child to

be first every where. And another thing is that

earlier there were many children, where they

learnt the concept of sharing things. Now there

is no one to share with; there are no cousins, no

family members, even to share in the same

event. So people are becoming more self


centered. Education is giving good values, but

this self centeredness, this loneliness is killing

our culture, and that is more the responsibility

of the entire society, the family setup, the

religious order. Leaders in every religion, I am

sure, are afraid why people are not coming to

the temples and churches, is it because they

don't have time, though they have time for

other things. It is not that earlier people had

more time and now we have no time. It is that

we are becoming so selfish, we have time for

ourselves, but we do not have time for others.

Q : Fr. Dolreich: You mentioned that people we do

not have time for church or for other religious

practices and Prof. Harsha also mentioned

sometime back that it is the lack of fear, of God that

is responsible in a certain way for increasing crime

taking place in our country. Now, in some

religions, namely, Christianity, Islam, and also in

Zoroastrianism, what sometimes puts fear in

people is the whole idea of hell. Is this good?

A: Bomie: In Zoroastrianism it is rather

complicated. We believe that the soul passes

through different stages in life. And when the

soul has done something wrong, in this life,

then the soul has to take rebirth and atone for

what it has done. It is an existence on various

levels, with each level to achieve a particular

goal. And therefore there is the concept of hell

but not in those very terms. It is a matter of

going from one plane to another, one level to

another. Can one remain on this earth

eternally? Yes, it could be!

Q : Fr. Dolreich : In the book of Genesis we read :

"God saw all that he had made and indeed it was

very good". Is "eternal hell" also included in the

good things that God has made in the beginning?

A : Fr. Caesar : On a personal note, I am always

scared of Fr. Dolreich! He was my student but

his questions used to make us go round in

circles! The Book of Genesis belongs to what is

called pre-history; it doesn't tell us about

historical events. History begins only with

Abraham 1800 yrs BC. Butyes, it does mention

about heaven and hell. So hell is what they call

a real possibility in the sense that it is there

somewhere to make us behave on this earth so

it is there as a kind of a threat. Whether there is

really somebody in hell or not, nobody is sure.

Not even whether Judas is in hell.

Q : Fr. Dolreich : Dr. Radhakrishnan, who was

the first President of India, made a critique of

Christianity saying that in Christianity you get

only one chance. If you do good you go to heaven

and if you do evil you go to hell. And the same in

Islam. Whereas in Hinduism and other religions

they speak of reincarnation. In this concept you find

a little more of compassion in that you get many

chances. Initially if you don't do well in this life

then you have the law of Karma take place and then

you get some more chances. The question that I am

wish to ask of religions that speak of karma, is what

motivation would be there for me for better behavior

in this life? I am sure that I can get some more

chances later on to redeem myself!

A : Prof. Harsha: Well he is a philosopher and it

is good to question and question. That is what

everyone should be doing all the time in this

scientific world. I feel we have to accept the

scriptures critically, as we have heard from Fr.

Caesar's speech. It does not really matter

whether you have the next birth or not,

because kya pata? kissne deka hai? And that is

what the younger generation is now-a-days

questioning: whenever you tell them

something, what is the proof? And we are

helpless, because we do not have proof

whether there is heaven or hell; whether there


is the next life. Therefore now-a-days there is

this questioning in every religion; it must

happen and it is good it is happening. We have

started saying, "Jo be swarghai sab yehi hai". It is

not only after death that we are going to get

whatever reward or punishment. For example

Valmiki, it was not after death he became

Valmiki; in this life itself jo be milana hai, yehi

milana hai. It becomes very speculative Milega

toh milega who knows? So to answer these

philosophical queries we will have to really

start reinterpreting the scriptures in such a

way that it serves the purpose for which they

were meant. The purpose is to guide humanity

in the direction of morality. And if that is the

purpose to be served, it does not really matter

whether you have one life or hundred lives.

What matters is that in this life with me at the

moment, I do not know whether I am going to

take birth again or not. But I have to be as

perfect as possible. Moksha as self-realization,

is now interpreted as self-actualization in this

life. You perfect yourself as much as possible

and actualize your potential, and that is the

ultimate goal of your life. So in that sense if we

reinterpret with evidence, almost all religions

will serve the purpose, otherwise religion is

becoming only dogmatic and rigid. Talk about

hell doesn't matter because ultimately what is

this whole concept of hell.... we should be

afraid of it and stop behaving in the wrong

manner, stop sinning. So the idea is like telling

the child to get out of the house…. We know we

are not going to do it but that has to be told to

the children in such a way that the child

really feels that "ho sakta hai. Agar woh darrra

hega; ho baccha control mein rahega; agar katam

ho jayega control chalajayega". So ultimately all

these theories whether there are n number of

lives or whether there is heaven or hell or

whatever, we cannot satisfy the rational

queries of the scientific minded people. What

we have to tell them is that irrespective of

the consequences we must be good.

Q : Sr. VandanaFHIC : In inter-faith marriages,

the children do not know which religion to

follow. So how can we give them the fear of God?

Often they grow up as atheists.

A : Prof. Harsha : Now here we have to reach a

particular point where we say, how does it

matter which religion the child belongs to?

Ultimately we all belong to the religion of

humanity. So we have to cross the borders. It is

already happening with inter-religious

marriages, and it is the best thing to happen. It

is the best way to go beyond our boundaries.

We can no longer remain in our own wells! You

know, in India we have this concept of

'kupanduk', which is the frog in the well! Now

all these years in traditional societies we were

all in our own wells and felt safe and secure,

and we thought that was the whole world. We

have now come out, with multi-cultural and

multi-religious societies in which we live. We

come out of our wells and we see totally

different kinds of people, rituals and

practices, and we start wondering "what will

happen to our culture"? But nowwe have to

cross the boundaries and assimilate a global

culture. We have actually reached the stage of

"Vasudeva kutumbakam", which means the

entire world is one family; and of course in the

family there are many differences and

everyone fits with each other. It is not that

everyone is same in the family; we are all

different and we adjust ourselves, we are

ready to compromise. If we can compromise

within the family then why can't we

compromise in society? So when the child says

I do not know what religion I belong to, it is

fine! Let him not belong to any organised

religion, but let him be religious, as Fr Caesar


said. Religiosity will come up in the child as an

urge from within. Even if the child ultimately

turns to atheism, the cultural and spiritual

need will come up and it will be satisfied, but

not with any particular religion. I like to refer

to two types of religion, one with a small 'r' and

the other with a capital 'R' which is like an

umbrella term including in itself all religions.

What ultimately matters is that the child

becomes a good human being. It does not

matter which path he chooses as we would talk

about different religions as different paths

leading to a common goal, of morality and

spirituality.

Concluding remarks: Fr. Dolreich

My dear friends, I must say that all of us have

partaken of a very rich and warm sharing by

all the panelists here. I would like to end with a

short story and a question. During one of his

wars, Napoleon was very angry when one of

the soldiers who had deserted his regiment

was brought in front of him; he went ahead

and gave his sentence. He said the soldier had

deserted his comrades fighting on the battle

field and that he deserved to die. The soldier's

mother came and pleaded with Napoleon, and

asked him to have mercy on her son, because

he was her only child. Napoleon retorted that

her son had deserted his comrades and so he

did not deserve mercy. The soldier's mother

quickly replied: "If mercy was deserved, it

would not be mercy."

As we leave this hall this evening, I would like

to leave you with this question: God has been

merciful to us; in what way can we be merciful like

God?

Transcription by

Fiona Fernandes, Marie D’Souza

A One - YearRUDIMENTARY COURSEinINTER-RELIGIOUS DIALOGUEfor Catholic Adults

Meant specially for :l

Communitiesl Parish IRD Cell

Membersl Teachers of Value Education

in Schools

Animators of Small Human

2016- 2017


Requirements

A Prayer Table covered with a table cloth.

A standing cross decorated with flowers.

Seasonal flowers well decorated around the

samai, and, if possible, around the hall.

A samai to be lit. Invite the

A Paschal candle with the Paschal candle stand.

Candles for everyone present.

Keep the Koran and ZendAvesta, the Holy Book of

the Parsees at hand.

English, Marathi and Hindi Bibles to be kept ready.

While the samai is being lit, the choir can sing the

hymn :

Let there be Light shared among us,

Let there be light in our eyes,

May now Your light sweep this nation,

Cause us to arise.….

Introduction

For Christians, Easter Sunday celebrates one of

the greatest days in the history of Christianity.

The great gift of Easter is hope - Christian hope

which makes us have that confidence in God, in

the ultimate triumph, and in God's goodness and

love, which nothing can shake. Easter

commemorates the beginning of new life and is

the most important Christian festival, and the

one celebrated with the greatest joy. Without

Easter there would be no Christianity. It forms

part of God's plan for the salvation of

humankind.

Silent reflection

Leader : We pray that the Easter light of life,

hope and joy, will live in us each day; and that we

will be bearers of that light into the lives of

others. Gracious God, we praise you for the light

of new life made possible in our world. We

praise you for the light of new life that continues

to shine in all our hearts today.

READINGS

Leader : In silence, we now listen to various

Readings from some Holy Scriptures.

dignitaries and the

Parish Priest to light the samai.

INTER-RELIGIOUS GATHERING FOR EASTERDeeJeMÙekeâleeSBcespeheesMe mes {keâer Skeâ cespe]hetâueeW mes mepee ngS Skeâ Ke[e ›etâmeSkeâ meceF& hetâueeW mes mepeer, nes mekesâ lees meYeeIej Yeer hetâueeW mes mepee nes ~ ØepJeefuele keâjves kesâ efueS Skeâ meceF& ~ Øeefleef‰le JÙeefòeâÙeeW leLee heuueer hegjesefnle keâes, Gmes ØepJeefuele

keâjves kesâ efueÙes Deecebef$ele keâerefpeÙes ~ heemkeâe keâer ceesceyeòeer, heemkeâe ceesceyeòeer kesâ mšQ[ kesâ meeLe ~ kegâjDeeve leLee heejefmeÙeeW keâe heefJe$e-«evLe pesvo-DeJemlee heeme nes ~ Deb«espeer, efnvoer leLee ceje"er yeeFefyeue lewÙeej jKeW]

meceF& keâes ØepJeefuele keâjles meceÙe ieeÙekeâJe=vo ØekeâeMe hej DeeOeeefjle keâesF& GheÙegòeâ Yepeve iee mekeâles nQ]

ØemleeJevee¡eermleerÙeeW kesâ efueÙes, F&mšj jefJeJeej keâe meceejesn, ¡eermleerÙe-Oece& kesâ Fefleneme ceW cenevelece efoveeW ceW mes Skeâ nw ~ F&mšj keâer ceneve osve nw DeeMee - ¡eermleerÙe DeeMee, nceW F&Õej ceW, Debeflece efJepeÙe ceW leLee F&Õej keâer oÙeeueglee Deewj Øesce ceW, Jen efJeÕeeme efoueeleer nw, efpemes keâesF& efnuee veneR mekeâlee ~ F&mšj, veJepeerJeve kesâ DeejcYe keâe mcejCeeslmeJe Deewj ¡eermleerÙeeW keâe meye mes DeefOekeâ cenlJehetCe& lÙeesnej nw, leLee yengle Deevevo hetJe&keâ ceveeÙee peelee nw ~ F&mšj kesâ keâejCe ner ¡eermleerÙe-Oece& nw ~ Ùen ceeveJe keâer cegefòeâ kesâ efueÙes, F&Õej keâer Ùeespevee keâe Skeâ Yeeie nw ~

ceewve cevevešerkeâekeâej : nce ØeeLe&vee keâjles nQ efkeâ F&mšj keâer peerJeve-pÙeesefle, DeeMee Deewj Øesce nj efove nceejs meeLe jns ; Deewj nce Gme pÙeesefle keâes, otmejeW kesâ peerJeve ceW ues peevesJeeues Jeenkeâ yeveWies ~ ns ke=âheeueg F&Õej ! nceejs mebmeej ceW veJeerve peerJeve keâer pÙeesefle keâes mebYeJe yeveeves kesâ efueÙes nce lesjer ØeMebmee keâjles nQ ~ nce veJeerve peerJeve keâer pÙeesefle kesâ efueÙes lesjer ØeMebmee keâjles nQ pees Deepe Yeer, nceejs peerJeve kesâ Ûecekeâ jner nw ~

hee" DeiegDee : Deye nce, Meevle nes keâj kegâÚ heefJe$e Oeeefce&keâ-«evLeeW kesâ efJeefYeVe hee" megveWies ~


Readings from the Holy Bible :

l John: 3 : 19-21 (in English.)

l Luke: 11 : 34-36 (in Marathi or Hindi)

Silent reflection.

Leader : We now hear a reading from The

Bhagavad Gita. (Arjuna to Krishna)

O Krishna, it is right that the world delights and

rejoices in your praise, that all the saints and

sages bow down to you and all evil flees before

you to the far corners of the universe.

How could they not worship you, O Lord? You

are the eternal spirit, who existed before Brahma

the creator and who will never cease to be, the

Lord of the gods, you are the abode of the

universe. Changeless, you are what is and what

is not, and beyond the duality of existence and

non-existence.

You are the first among gods, the timeless spirit,

the resting place of all beings. You are the knower

and the thing which is known. You are the final

home; within your infinite form you pervade the

cosmos.

You are Vayu, god of wind; Yama, god of death;

Agni, god of fire; Varuna, god of water. You are

the moon and the creator Prajapati, and the great-

grandfather of all creatures. I bow before you

and salute you again and again.

You are behind me and in front of me; I bow

to you on every side. Your power is

immeasurable. You pervade everything; you are

everything.

The Bhagavad Gita - 11:36-40

Silent reflection

Hymn: He is Lord, He is Lord, He is risen from

the dead and He is Lord.

The Ayat an-Nur (Arabic: "the Sign of Light") is the

40th verse of the 24th sura of the Qur'an, Suraan-

Nur.

Or like utter darkness in the deep sea: there

covers it a wave above which is another wave,

above which is a cloud, layers of utter darkness

heefJe$e yeeFefyeue mes hee"l Ùeesnve 3 : 19-21 Deb«espeer ceWl uetkeâme 11: 34 - 36 ceje"er Ùee efnvoer ceW

ceewve cevevešerkeâekeâej : Deye nce YeieJeodieerlee mes hee" megveWiesDepeg&ve ves keâne - ns ke=â<Ce ~ Deehe kesâ veece kesâ ßeJeCe mes mebmeej nef<e&le neslee nw Deewj meYeer ueesie Deehekesâ Øeefle Devegjòeâ nesles nQ ~ ÙeÅeefhe efmeæ heg®<e Deehe keâes vecemkeâej keâjles nQ, efkeâvleg DemegjieCe YeÙeYeerle nQ Deewj FOej-GOej Yeeie jns nQ ~

ns ØeYeg ~ Deehe yeÇÿee mes Yeer yeÌ{keâj nQ, Deehe Deeefo œe°e nQ, lees efheâj Jes Deehekeâes meeoj vecemkeâej keäÙeeW ve keâjW? ns Devevle, ns osJesMe, ns peieefVeJeeme ! Deehe hejce œeesle, keâejCeeW kesâ keâejCe leLee Fme Yeeweflekeâ peiele mes Yejs nQ ~

Deehe Deeefo osJe, meveeleve heg®<e leLee Fme ÂMÙepeiele kesâ hejce DeeßeÙe nQ ~ Deehe meye kegâÚ peevevesJeeues nQ Deewj Deehe ner, Jen meye kegâÚ nQ, pees peeveves ÙeesiÙe nw ~ Deehe Yeeweflekeâ iegCeeW mes hejce DeeßeÙe nQ ~ ns Devevle ¤he ~ Ùen mechetCe& ÂMÙepeie Deehemes JÙeehle nw ~

Deehe JeeÙeg nQ leLee hejce efveÙevlee Yeer nQ ~ Deehe Deefive nQ, peue nQ leLee Ûevõcee nQ ~ Deehe Deeefo peerJe yeÇÿee nQ Deewj Deehe Øeefheleecen nQ ~ Dele: Deehe keâes npeej yeej vecemkeâej nw Deewj hegve: hegve: vecemkeâej nw ~

Deehe keâes Deeies heerÚs leLee ÛeejeW Deesj mes vecemkeâej ~ ns Demeerce Meefòeâ ~ Deehe Devevle heje›eâce kesâ mJeeceer nQ ~ Deehe meJe&JÙeeheer nQ, Dele: Deehe meye kegâÚ nQ ~

YeieJeodieerlee 11:36-40

ceewve ceveveYepeve : Jen ØeYeg nw Jen peer G"e nw (Ùee keâesF& GheÙegòeâ Yepeve)

kegâjDeeve keâer metjn Deve vetj (pÙeesefle keâe efÛevnb) keâer ÛeueermeJeeR DeeÙele

Ùee efHeâj pewmeer DeeBefOeÙeeefjÙeeB nQ, Skeâ ienjs mecegõ ceW~ efpemehej Skeâ uenj ÚeF& nw, Gmekesâ Thej Skeâ Deewj uenj , Gmekesâ Thej yeeoue~ len -hej len DeBefOeÙeejerÙeeB peceer nQ~ peye Dehevee neLe efvekeâeues lees Gmes osKe ve heeÙes~ efpemes Deuueen ves ØekeâeMe ve efoÙee, Gmekesâ efueÙes keâesF& ØekeâeMe veneR~


one above another; when he holds out his hand,

he is almost unable to see it; and to whomsoever

Allah does not give light, he has no light.

Silent reflection

The Hymns of Zarathustra. Ahunuvaiti Gatha,

Yasna 31 (Stanza 7)

He who in the First Beginning thus thought: Let

the glorious heavens be clothed in light; He by

His supreme understanding created the

principles of Truth and Light; Enabling mortals

thereby to maintain the Good Mind. O Wise

Lord, O ever-the-same Ahura, by Thy Holy Spirit

make these realms flourish.

Silent reflection

INTERCESSIONS

Leader : Dear brothers and sisters, God in his

infinite wisdom has put us in a world where

people of all faiths, religions, castes, and creeds

live. Help us to make this world a place to live in

peace and harmony. Heavenly Father listen to

our prayers and yearnings.

Response : O God of the Universe be our help

and guide.

1. We pray for the gift of love for the people of

the whole world. Res.

2. We pray for people who work for peace, not

war. Res.

3. We pray for our leaders that they work for the

good of our nation. Res.

4. We pray for women who are victims of

atrocities. Res.

5. We pray for all our children that they become

responsible citizens of this great country.

Res.

Leader : O Almighty and merciful God, you have

always helped us whenever we have called to

you. Stand at our side at all moments of our life.

Be with us and guide us at every moment of our

life. Be our help and guiding light now and

forever.

End with a suitable Bhajan.

John A. Misquitta

Kalyan (West)

ceewve ceveve peejeLegmleje kesâ Yepeve, DengvegJeeÙeleer ieeLee, Ùeemevee 31(heo 7)Jen, efpemeves ØeLece Meg¤Deele ceW Leer meesÛee: ÙeMemJeer mJeieeX ceW pÙeesefle keâe peeS; Gmeves Deheveer hejce mecePeoejer mes melÙe Deewj pÙeeesefle kesâ efmeæeòeeW keâer jÛevee keâer; leeefkeâ cejCeMeerue Deewj DeÛÚs ceve keâes keâeÙece jKe mekeWâ~ ns efJeJeskeâer ØeYeg ! ns meoe meceeve Dentje! heefJe$e Deelcee kesâ Éeje Fve #es$eeW keâes Heâueves- Hetâueves os~

ceewve ceveve ceOÙemLeleeSB

DeiegDee: efØeÙe YeeFÙees Deewj yenvees ~ F&Õej ves Deheves Demeerce efJeJeskeâ Éeje nceW Fme mebmeej ceW jKee, ÙeneB meye OeceeX efJeÕeemeeW peeefleÙees b Deewj celeeW kesâ ueesie jnles nQ ~ nceW Fme mebmeej keâes Ssmeer peien yeveeves ceW meneÙelee os, peneB meye Meebefle Deewj cesue efceueehe mes jn mekeWâ ~ ns mJeieeaÙe efhelee nceejer ØeeLe&veeDeeW Deewj ueeuemeeDeeW hej OÙeeve os ~

peyeeye : ns meejs efJeÕe kesâ F&Õej, nceejer meneÙelee Je nceeje ceeie&oMe&ve keâj1. nce meejs mebmeej kesâ ueesieeW kesâ efueS ØeeLe&vee keâjles nQ efkeâ Jes

Øesce keâe oeve heeSB peJeeye: 2. nce Gve ueesieeW keâes efueS ØeeLe&vee keâjles nQ pees Ùegæ kesâ efueS

veneR Meebefle kesâ efueS keâeÙe& keâjles nw~ peJeeye: 3. nce Deheves vesleeDeeW kesâ efueÙes ØeeLe&veekeâjles nQ efkeâ Jes je°^ keâer

YeueeF& kesâ keâeÙe& keâjW ~ peJeeye: 4. nce Gve efŒeÙeeW kesâ efueÙes ØeeLe&vee keâjles nQ pees DelÙeeÛeej men

jneR nw~ peJeeye: 5. nce meye yeÛÛeeW kesâ efueÙes ØeeLe&vee keâjles nQ efkeâ Je Fme ceneve

osMe kesâ efpeccesoej veeieefjkeâ yeveW~ peJeeye:

DeiegDee : ns meJe&Meefòeâceeve Deewj oÙeeueg F&Õej~ peye Yeer nceves legPes hegkeâeje, letves nceejer meneÙelee keâer, peerJeve kesâ nj heue ceW nceejs heeme jn~ nceejs peerJeve ceW meoe nceejs meeLe jnkeâj, nceeje ceeie&oMe&ve keâj~ Deepe Deewj meoe nceejer meneÙelee keâj Deewj nceejer ceeie&oMe&ve keâer pÙeesefle yeve pee ~

Deble ceW keâesF& GheÙegòeâ Yepeve

DevegJeeokeâ : heer. Skeäme. mJeeceerceerje jes[ (hetJe&)

d i a l o g u e€¦ · d i a l o g u e the bombay archdiocesan commission for inter-religious ......

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