16280. ntsangani - historical papers, wits university · 16280. ntsangani conference of the youth...

16280. NTSANGANI

conference of the Youth league - - there were many Minute Books which we could not find, and other docu-ments as well, of the New Brighton Youth league; and I recall Mene at one of these meetings reporting that most of the material he had was in the hands of the police.

BEKKEB Js Well, just to pinpoint this particu-lar minute book, this report is dated the 9th November, 1954. Would this meeting of the Executive Committee have been held within a week or ten days or a fortnight after that date?— No, my lord, that would have been about two or three days after.

Two or three days after the 9th November?— Yes; I think this meeting was on a Thursday - - I am not quite sure - - then the Executive I think was held some time on a Saturday or Sunday.

Well, within ten days affects the minute book ?—Yes.

Well, make enquiries, Mr. Trengove, as to whether you've got such a minute book.

MR. TRENGOVE t Yes, my lord. You haven't yet told the Court whether there was anything in this document contrary to A.N.C. policy?— I've already said that I am not in a position today to say so, unless I refresh my memory from the documents.

RUMPEF J; Well, let me put it this way; when you discussed the report during the executive committee meeting, was any objection made against the report on the ground that it ran counter to A.N.C. policy?— I don't know, my lord; I don't recall that; all that I do recall is that this report was not re-garded by the executive as being a report reflecting the

16281. NTS AM3ANI

1 activities of the Youth League. That I remember specifi-cally.

MR. TKSMJOVE S I want to put a few passages to you, Ntsangani, from this report.

MR. PLEWMAN objects to cross examination on this 5 document in view of Mr. Trengove's statement that if the Crown were in possession of s ame it would have been put In.

RUMPEF J; He can put the question without shewing the document. Were you present at that Executive 10 meeting where this report was discussed?— Yes, I pre-sided, my lord.

You presided?— Yes, my lord. Who else were present?— All the members of the

Executive. 15 MR. TREMJOVE % After stating that this was a

report on behalf of the Secretariat of the outgoing executive committee, and dealing with the address of Sisulu, warning people against political careerism. Will you look at line 10 on that page, the paragraph 20

starting 'Black politics in South Africa are grossly deterred by the Anarchist policies of academic politi-cians who follow the teachings of a renegade Trotski. Trotski we shall all remember was an egotist in the Peoples Democracy of Russia where he was exposed as a 25 careerist using the struggle of the people for his own ends. He fled and established what he called the Fourth Internationale with Tito, another careerist. In South Africa and Ceylon his followers are known as men of the non-European Unity Movement. These men of the Fourth 30 Internationale are the main springboard for issuing dis-

16282, NTSANGANI

rupted ideas in the national liberatoiy movement, but if their strategy is intelligently analysed it will be discovered that once they have no political line of action against the oppressor, but instead concentrate on individualistic vituperation of national leadership.' Now,you had that difficulty in the African National Con-gress, that academic politicians were trying to undermine the liberation movement0?— I don't know what's the meaning of academic politicians.

Weil, intellectuals?— That intellectuals were trying to undermine a . .

Your liberation movement?— Would you please repeat the question?

You had that problem, that amongst your own people academic politicians, learned people who just talk politics but do nothing about it, that they were under-mining your national liberation struggle?— Well, person-ally my attitude towards these people was not that they were undermining the people - - if we are s-oeaking about the people Ihave in mind - - it was not that they were undermining the freedom struggle waged by the congresses, but that in fact they are people who for reasons known to themselves would not come into our ranks and fight with us, and I constantly invited them to come and join our ranks. That was my attitude, and I think that was the attitude of most of my colleagues.

We'll see just now what kind of invitation you extended to these people. Will you just follow there the sub-paragraph which comes next, 'The role of the Trade Unions'; just have a look at that. He goes on and

16283 NTSiLNGANI

deals with the role of the Trade Unions. Have you got that sub-paragraph?— Yes„

Now just four lines before that, after dealing with the oppressed people, he says? 'We for this reason and many others fight our national oppression and exploita tion as a working class. Is it any wonder then that we are striving to establish a classless society in which there are neither masters nor slaves„1 Have you got that passage?—Yes<>

That is also what you were doing, were you not - trying to establish a classless society in which there were neither masters nor slaves?— I don't think the African National Congress was fighting for that. The African National Congress was more concerned with the oppression of this particular section of the population of South Africa, which I call the non-whitesand because one would find within that section doctors, professional men - - the question of class with the African National Congress does not exist, We work day in and day out with all classes of people«

Would this statement be contrary to A.N.C. policy, as you understood ix?— Certainly I would say so*

S 3 there was this in the report which was contrary to A,N„C0 policy as you understood it?— Yes, I should thine that was one of the reasons why we re-jected this report.

Oh, I see, now you remember this was one of the reasons for its rejection because it was contrary to A.N.C. policy?— I think so, that this could have been one of the reasons.

16284. NTSANG-ANI

1 Then ne deals with the role of trade unions.

Now you were also very interested in the role of trade unions in the liberatory movement, were you not?— In what way?

I want to ask you? you were interested in the 5 role of trade unions in the liberatory struggle, were you not?— As a worker I was interested in building up a powerful trade union to fight for my rights, and as a member of the African National Congress I was interested in removing the disabilities, more particularly of the 10 African people and the other oppressed sections.

You made quite a number of speeches in which you attacked capitalism, and the capitalist society, is that correct?— I attacked the capitalist society, as I see it in South Africa.

15 Ntsangani, you didnrt think that capitalism

meant only an inequality in franchise?— I don't under-stand the question-

You said this morning that you thought capitalism - your experience of capitalism was that one man had the 20

vote and the other man did not have the vote. That was what you thought capita] ism was?— I said this morning that as far as I understand capitalism in practice in South Africa, it means the oppression of a certain sec-tion of the population. I went further to say that is 25 the section I refer to as being the non-^vhite section. That is how I understand it in South Africa.

And that oppression consisted of political and economical oppression?— I don't know about the economical oppression because I would say by economic oppression I 30 would mean that this section as workers do not get the

16285. NTSMGANT

worth of their labour. That's how I would interpret economic oppression. In other words, the Government of the country are not prepared to fix a minimum wage for instance as suggested by the A.N.C. of £1 a day.

And land, the possession of land, is that econo-mic oppression? Is that economic oppression that you find in a capitalist society?— I don't know; I think as I've said already I have not studied these things, economics and such like things - - I am more concerned with my freedom, the right to vote. Then, of course, when it comes to land the African people in South Africa have no land. They have no land anywhere in South Africa

Ntsangani, you have referred to countries overseas as capitalist countries?— Which countries are those that I referred to?

I don't know; I want you to tell me; you've referred to capitalist countries which are breaking up overseas, and capitalist countries overseas which are oppressing people?— In all my speeches I referred to capitalism in the country and in the continent, and my reference thereto was more particularly concerning countries like Kenya, where the Kenya people were as oppressed as we are in South Africa.

Which was the capitalist country there?— A country which had interests in Kenya to my knowledge was Great Britain.

Now, this report then, at page 4, deals with the immediate tasks and duties of the branch, and then at paragraph 5 it deals with the enemies 'of our progress'?— On what page is that please?

1628 6, NTSANGANI

Page 3992 of the record, at the bottom, line 22?— Yes, I've got it,

Read the passage there - - 'First our duty is to deal, as is to be expected there are a host of enemies to our s truggle from within and without. A brief refer-ence to them would be interesting. First our duty is to make people realise the recognition of their common enemy, and organising ourselves with this fact in mind against the enemy regardless of political convictions, beliefs and attitudes. Those then who are as oppressed as ourselves but make a special hobby of attacking the National Liberatory Movement as the enemy of the people, and must be eradicated root and branch, even if this involves the supreme sacrifice. They are more dangerous than the oppressors, because they stab us in the back.'

those enemies in your midst who are attacking the National Liberation Movement, according to this report,

they must be eradicated even if it involves the supreme sacrifice. Now you know what that means, don't you, Mr. Ntsangani?— It means sacrifice-, I don't know what he had in mind by that,

Well, did you ask him? Did you call him to task for this report?— We read the report - - and may I say firstly that even this portion had not been read yet when the speaker was interrupted by Mr. Kepe. . . I think then r/hen this was taken up by the executive there were many things, and this may have been one of the things we pointed out . . .

What does this mean to you, Ntsangani, where it says 'The men in your midst, the enemies in your midst must be rooted out, eradicated root and branch, even if it involves the supreme sacrifice'?— As I say I don't

16287» NTSANGANI

know what he meant by the supreme sacrifice, but to me what this conveys is this: we have men within Congress who pretend to be true Congressmen? yet their activities do not show that they are. Their activities in fact are such that they show us beyond reasonable doubt that they are working for the destruction of the African National Congress. Such as I referred to this morning for instance, men who would be employed by the Government „ . . .

That we know; we know you have spies and traitors in ycur midst?-— I think here then Mr. Mqota was dealing with such people.

Quite, I accept that, but this phrase 'They must be rooted out, eradicated root and branch even if this in-volves the supreme sacrifice' ; what does that mean?— Let me say first that I agree with him when he s ays these people must be done away with, from the African National Congress; we don't need such people, they are much more dangerous inside, than the Special Branch men. But when he hoes further and says "even if it means the supreme sacrifice' that I don't understand,.

You don;t want to understand, Ntsangani, because this type of thing is being propagated from political plat-forms of the African National Congress, and then you say it could not have been said because it has a violent ten-dency, but when :..t'-s i.n a report then you say you cannot understand it. You know what this means, the supreme sacrifice?— Mr, Trengove, no matter how you interpret that we decided that this report cannot be presented to the general meeting, and I have already said to you that one of the things was this, that resulted in our decision..,,

I want to put it to your Ntsantgani, that

16268. NTSANGANI

this report with its implication of violence, and that your other speeches with implications of violence, you now try to get away from because you haven't got the courage to say that that was the attitude of your organisation?— I am afraid, Mr. Trengove, you are not informed about the activities of the African National Congress. Here Mr. Nqota was speaking out his mind and we rejected, as I have already said? this report on the grounds that it had nothing appertaining to the activities of the New Brighton Branch, and I went further to say that this may have been one of the very things which we thought are not suitable to propagate to the membership. And that in itself is or shows beyond reasonable doubt that we know where we stand. Our speeches - I have interpreted them to the

best of my ability - as far as I'm concerned have nothing to do with this; they don'tcome anyway near what is writ-ten in that report.

What, is this too violent" — I don't know. It depends on the interpretation„

I see - You never tried to find out from Mqota what he meant when he said this, when he wrote this? That is my worry now; I cannot recall everything that took place at that tb eting0 As I have said from the very beginning it is possible that we trie d to find out about certain meanings of certain expressions of views here, and on those grounds we may have . . .

KENNEDY Js Do you remember if Mr Mqota was present at that executive meeting?— Yes, he was present at that meeting.

Was there no expression of approval or dis-approval about the general trend of this report?— My lord,

16289. NTSANGANI

as I said already the executive came to the conclusion after having considered the whole report that this was not the type of report which could be presented to our members. And these things he says here, this one for instance, may have been one of the things.

Were there not a number of things which were objectionable to the executive ? — That is my point, my lord, there were a number of things; this may have been one of them.

Don?t you remember?— It would be difficult for me to say this and that and that and that, my lord, But generally speaking we rejected the entire report.

And after you had rejected it, what happened to the document?—Well, to my knowledge he took the docu-ment .

Mqota?— I think Mqota took it; I'm not quite sure, but I think he took it, because it was never read at the meetings again,

I don:t suppose you can assist us in saying how it came to be found in Mene's possession?— I think, my lord, it was because Mene at the time was the assistant secretary. Probably after the meeting, or in fact when he was still at the meeting, he gave this document to Mene - - whether he did so, my lord, I don't know but it it is possible he may have done.

RUMPFF J; I would just like to know from you whether this annual general meeting referred to in this document was the general meeting of the branch, or the Eastern Cape region?— It was of the New Brighton branch, my lord.

The New Brighton Branch?— Yes, my lord.

J

16290. NTSANGANI

What other functions did Mqota hold, or what other positions did he hold in the Youth league?— At this tine?

Yes?— I think this meeting was after the annual conference of the Youth League - - I think he was elected to the executive in June, 1954, and I'm not sure about his membership of the Cape Youth League Executive - I think that was after this, I think it was in 1955. Yes, he was not in the Cape Executive, he was in the National Execu-tive of the Youth League and the Branch Secretary, my lord.

I'm just looking at the heading of this re-port, it says Secretarial Report submitted to the Annual General Meeting of the African National Congress Youth League, 9th November, 1954?— Yes, my lord . . .

You say this is a branch meeting?— That was a branch meeting, my lord; I'm more than sure of that. It was not a Provincial nor a National Conference, it was a branch meeting, a meeting of the New Brighton Branch.

And was this held on the 9th November, 1954?— It could be, ray lord, I'm not sure of the date, but I think it was on that date.

You say while the mating was being held the secretary was asked to present his report, to read his report?— I called upon the secretary to present a secre-tarial report, but I must say before I did this I en-quired from him whether in fact he had prepared the se-cretarial report. Now this was because he had not attended executive meetings for some time owing to ill-ness - - he suffers from T.B. my lord. It was only then that he told me that the report was ready.

Until the general meeting you did not know

16291. NTSANGANI

that there was a report?— In fact we took it for granted that the secretary was preparing this report and that it would be submitted to the executive on the Monday, the same week - before the general meeting.

Yes, but at what time of the day was this annual general meeting?— It was in the evening, my lord.

What time did the meeting start?— I would not be in a position to say at which time, but we used to start our meetings between 7 and 8 o'clock.

Now, I may be wrong, but judging from the other secretarial reports generally, is the secretarial report a report really on behalf of the executive?— It should be on behalf of the executive, that is why the executive has to consider it before the general meeting.

There is no separate report on policy and on activities from any other member - a report from any other member of the executive although there may be an address by the chairman or the president; is this the only report? The only report on the activities generally - the secretarial report?— Yes, the secretarial report is supposed to reflect the activities of a particular branch.

Yes. Now, judging again by other reports that I've seen, the executive on provincial or national level, may also in its report, in the secretarial re-port, deal w .th international matters?— Yes; more particularly I would say one would expect that in a provincial or national report, but not on the branch lev el.

Why not?— Because, my lord, the membership onthe branch level are more affected in matters affecting

1 6 2 9 2 c NTSANGANI

the people in that particular branch. They are not very much concerned about international politics as it were.

You say the s ecretary got up and started reading this report?— Yes, my lord.

And he read for some time when somebody from the floor made an objection?— Yes.

You had not seen the report before?— No, none of the members of the executive - but I would not say the assistant secretary had not seen it.

Yes.,.?— But other members of the executive, until it was read at the meeting, had not seen it.

Had this happened before, that a secretarial re-port at an annual general meeting was read before the executive had approved of it?— Not that I know of, my lord. It may have happened but I don't recall.

Prom the point of view of practice, I assume its somewhat unusual, for the secretarial report purports to be the report on behalf of the executive?— Yes, it is very unusual; in fact I think that was one of the reasons why an objection was raised immediately, my lord. Because this particular member who raised the objection is a member of the Executive«

Had Mqota been secretary since the year before, or had he taken over?— Mqota was secretary from June, 1954, up to the end of the year.

So he had not prepared the secretarial report previously?— No, my lord, the previous reports had been prepared by Mr. Bareng (?) who left Port Elizabeth then.

Now, seeing that this was the first secretarial report prepared by Mqota, didn't the executive think it necessary to go over the report before it was read to the

1

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10

full meeting?— We had no time for that, my lord; in fact I think that was one of the reasons why I asked him whether he had already prepared a report.

When did you ask him that?— At the meeting. At that general meeting, my lord.

When, "before this meeting, was the executive committee meeting, the last one before this meeting?— We had a last executive committee meeting on a Monday, or Tuesday.

Was it a few days before the annual general meeting?— Yes, that was a few days before the annual general meeting. I think it was on the Tuesday, I'm not quite sure though.

Was the matter of the secretarial report then not raised on that executive committee meeting?— I can-not recall but I think it was raised; in fact it must have been raised.

If you can't remember say so, because its many years back?— I can't recollect.

You say it would have been raised^ if the executive meeting was only a few days before the annual general meeting then I take it it would have been raised, the secretarial report?— Yes, I think the matter was raised.

Did he have his report then, or not?— As I say, my lord, Mqota is a sickly manP he was not at the executive meetings for about three or four weeks. This matter of the secretarial report that he had to prepare "jas conveyed to him by his assistant, that was V. Mene. And I don't know whether . . .

Was Mqota not present at the last executive

15

20

25

16294o NTSANGANI

committee meeting before the annual general meeting?—No, he was not present, my lord.

Yes, but the assistant secretary was present?— Yes, I think he was present0

You think so?-— Yes, he was present. Now didn't you think it advisable, before the

annual general meeting started, for the executive committ to have a look at the report, that same evening before he read it?— In fact that's what one would have expected should be done by the executive, but again, considering the time at which this meeting started — people come to work late, some at half past six or seven o'clock - -it is possible . . .

Was he at the meeting; Mqota must have been at the meeting?— Yes, he was at the meeting.

Yes; he must have been to have read the re-port?— Yes. What I'm trying to convey, my lord, is that the executive had no time to consider such matters at the meeting- before the meeting started, because of the fact that each and every member of the executive would not be at the meeting in time,, due to late coming from work and suchlike thingss

Chen what about the chairman having a look at the report, the secretarial report, seeing that the secretary had not been at any executive meetings for some time - ho had as it were lost contact with the executive; now the report is produced?— Well, my lord, as I already said I merely asked him whether he had prepared the report, because the message was sent to him through his assistant, and I don't think I deemed it necessary to go through the report because more or les

16295° NTSANGANI

he knew what type of report to prepare.. Was the report which he had, was that a typed

report or a written report?— It was not a typed report. It was a written report.

A written report?— Yes, ray lord. In other words it might have been the document

which you saw?— Yesa In manuscript?— Yes « What was your practice at this time in regard to

the reports - - you didn't roneo them?— Yes, my lord, they werec

Before the general annual meeting?— Yes. Generally?— Yes. Were all the other papers in connection with this

annual general meeting typed?— Yes, in fact I personally cyclostated my own presidential address - I think a day before.

Yes,...?— For circulation among the members. When you cyclostyled your own address, didn't

you think about the secretarial report?— I must have thought about it, my lords but I think again what came to my mind was that it could be cyclostyled for circulation...

It could have been done by anyone?— Yes. MR. TEENGOVE: The branch didn't lose confidence

in Mqota as a result of this report; they re-elected him on the executive?— The membership in my observation lost confidence in him as secretary.

Oh, I see. RUMPFF J; I didn't follow that?— I said, my

lord, that the branch members lost confidence in Mqota as secretary, That is as far as my recollection goes

16296, NTSANGANI

1 I see. By the way what was the membership about

of the New Brighton Branch at this time?— Of the Youth League?

Yes?— In 1954 I think the membership was betweai 150 and 200; in fact the Youth leagues have very small

5 memberships. . »

MR. TRENGOVE; You see, after this passage I've referred you to, he deals with a second eneny of progress - he says, secondly, as we are struggling in a capitalist society . . .?— I'm sorry, at what line is that please? 10

BEKffiR J: Line 6, page 3992. MR. TRENGOVE; Thank you, my lord. 'Secondly, as

we are struggling in a capitalist society there can be no doubt that the capitalists are influenced in thinking of a great deal of oar fellow brethren, and this has 15 resulted in a germination of capitalistic tendency in the circles of the oppressed.' Then he deals with the establishment of a class called the 'National Bourgeosie' and says? 'In all capitalist societies the distribution of wealth is so neatly organised as to create a middle 20

class among the oppressed. This class is what we com-monly refer to as the National Bourgeosie, a class of civil servants, traders and shopkeepers, professional and businessmen as well as intellectuals. The disruptive activities of the National Bourgeosie is easily offset 25 by the preponderant weight organised unity crystallised in the will of the majority'. So you see he seems to have the same attitude towards intellectuals and a pos-sible disruotive effect of intellectuals that you had when you made this one speech, where you warned spies, traitors

l

16297. NTSANGANI

and intellectuals who don't carry out Congress policy. Did you find in the African National Congress that this National Bourgeosie, - shopkeepers, civil servants, in-tellectuals - had a disruptive effect on the National liberatory movement?

MR. FISCHER; My lords, might I point out that the witness has denied that he ever criticsed intellec-tuals .

RUMPFF J: Yes; he did not concede that he had used the term . .

MR.TRFfrCrOVE: It's the same attitude as the attitude reflected in the speech alleged to have been made by you?— No, it's not. I have told you al-ready what my attitude was towards intellectuals, and what I think the attitude of the African National Congress is. And nobody will be expected, speaking in the name of the African National Congress, to attack those people whom we claim to be part and parcel of the oppressed peo-ple., teachers, shopkeepers and suchlike.

Why does Mqota does it; he knows the African National Congress policy? He knows that policy as well as you do?— I:ve already told you one thing, that this report was not accepted, and I went further to say that although I am not in a position to recollect what actual-ly took place at this executive meeting - - I went further to say these may be some of the things which the executive considered unfit to be presented to the membership.

Then there is a paragraph dealing with the American plot, to see world hegomony, at page 3994, line 4. , Now, after dealing with the fact that America had displaced Britain in the leadership in the Colonial world

16298. NTSANGANI

he deals with the way America was strangling certain countries financially, and then he comes to the follow-ing conclusion, after naming various countriess 'The world cycle is complete. America has laid the foundation for an international conspiracy whereby she intends using national state to engineer her plot for world hegomony.' Do you see that passage?— Yes, I see it.

Now that was A.N.C. attitude towards interna-tional affairs, was it not? That America was the leader of the Imperialist group in the West?— I don't know, I heard individuals saying that, my lord, but I wouldn't go to the extent of saying that was A.N.C. attitude; I would say that was the attitude of some of the members. I have never heard Congress as such expressing an opinion of that nature.

Ntsangani, you know Congress reports; there is not a Congress report emanating from the National body over the period 1952 to 1955 that doesn't attack America as the leader of the Imperialist war camp in the West; you know that, Ntsangani?— As far as my memoryserves me, my lords, I think I and others have attacked America because of its support to the South African Government in other words supporting the racial policies of the South African Government, and beyond that I wouldn't say in fact there were members of the African National Con-gress whowent beyond that.

Then he concludes his report with a passage very much the same as that in Isizwe, on the war of attrition. 'In conclusion allow me to quote Ma-ets-se Turn (?), when the enemy advances we retreat. When he retreats we pursue. When he is tired we attack". Do you

16299 NTSANGANI

know Ma-ets-se Turn?— Yes, I have read about him in the newspapers.

Who was he?— He was the leader of the Chinese people.

The Chinese Communists?— I don't know; all I know is that he was the leader; he may have been the leader of the Chinese Communists, but all I do know is that he was the leader of the Chinese people.

Yes, and this sums up what the African National Congress was trying to do in this country, these words of Ma-ets-se Turn quoted by Mqota; it sums up exactly what you were trying to do in this country?— Trying to do what?

Take over the Government by these methods?— No African National Congress member ever said that we were going to take over the Government and all these things. Where do you get that from?

Mr. Ntsangani, you can't ask me any questions.

(COURT ADJOURNED)

1&300. M.B.F. NTSANGANI.

ON RESUMING AT 9.45 a.m. on the 18th AUGUST I960. (EVIDENCE RECORDED BY MEANS OF A SHORTHANDWRITER) MILNER BONAKELE FRED NTSANGANI. still under oath: CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TRENGROVE:(COTD):

Yesterday I was dealing with this report V.M.15 5 by Nqota. I see that Nquta was also a member of the

National Executive of the African National Congress? Yes he was elected to the Executive in 1955.

V/hich is after this report? That would be about a year after this report. 10

And at this very meeting where this report was delivered I think you said yesterday he was re-elected as a member of the executive, although not as secretary?—-Yes that was the position.

There is one passage in this document that I still 15 want to refer to, which is on the first page, the third paragraph. It says, "When this executive committee took over from the organising committee the future looked ex-tremely bleak in the field of day to day politics. I have no fear to say it now looks worse. Fanatical cut-throats 20 have now access to power in ruling class circles, and it is their avowed policy to stay masters of the beloved Africa so dear to us." Now who would these fanatical

cut-throats be? Well, I don't know what Mr. Nquta had in mind, but I may say, as I have listened to your reading 25 the report (which of course we agreed that it was not accepted at the general meeting) I should think he was referring to the Nationalist Party Government.

The "fanatical cut-throats"? Yes, that would mean to me the Government which is determined to destroy the 30

oppressed people. That is all it means.


By any means? By any means, of course.

Just before I step off this document, there are certain passages in this document which you say you don't know what Nqota meant, but I take it this report was read at your meeting... 5

BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF: Portion of it. MR. TRENGRQVB (CONTD): Portion was read, where this docu-ment was subsequently discussed at your Executive meeting, I take it that you read the report at the time, and

questioned Nqota about it? I think I pointed out yes- 10

terday that today I am not in a position to remember what the discussion was which was conducted on this point, but only that we agreed in the Executive that this type of report cannot be presented to the general meeting. BY MR. JUSTICE KENNEDY: 15

I take it it must have been read by somebody in the Executive, because otherwise you could not arrive at any conclusion about it? Yes I think it was read by the secretary himself or his assistant.

Aloud to the executive? To the members of the 20 Executive, yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TRENGROVE (COTD):

Was Nqota asked to explain certain passages that he quoted? Yes, he was asked, but as I said yesterday, I would not be in a position today of knowing which por- 25 tions he was asked to explain.

You see because I want to put it to you that you do not remember which portions he was asked to explain because you never called upon him for an explanation. There is nothing in this report that you don't agree with? 50

I don't know as to whether you want me to say to you


one hundred times that the entire Executive did not agree with what is contained in that document.

I see. In fact, that is why I said yesterday, the Executive decided not to present this type of a report to the membership, and I think that is all I can 5 say. Nothing more than that.

You said yesterday that Mr. Matje was the editor or publisher of Isizwe. I think he was your Provincial Secretary in the Cape of the African National Congress? Yes, Mr. Matje was the secretary of the Cape Province 10 from 1952 to 1954, that is before he was ordered to resign.

And sometime after 1952 he was also co-opted to the National Executive of the African National Congress?

I do not know, but I recall that Dr. Njongwe was a member of the Executive, but I do not remember at any 15 stage Mr. Matje becoming a member of the National Executive.

I have a report here, a 1955 report, at Bloem-fontein (LIM 81) which at page 24 gives the names of the Executive members co-opted and the r.ame of R.M. Matje appears. That would be the member of the Provincial 20 executive in the Cape? I must say here that Mr. Matje was banned immediately after the Provincial Conference of the Cape in 1954,

I am referring to the period before that. I am coming to that. And therefore could never have been 25 co-opted to the National Executive in the year 1954.

I did not say that he was. I don't know as to whether I misunderstood you, Mr. Trengrove. You are reading a report of the 1955 conference?

Yes. rt'hich implies to me that Mr. Matje must 30 have been co-opted sometime in 1954?


I am sorry. I might have mislead you. The report at page 24, Annexure "C" says 'Executive members elected in 1952' and then it gives the names of 21 members elected, and then under that the names of executive mem-bers co-opted amongst others Reshe, Hutchinson and R.M. 5 Matje. That would be possible.

That is the Matje? That is R. Matje. You said yesterday that the one National Conference

that you were at was the conference held in Port Elizabeth

in June 1955. Do you remember? That was the conference 10 held in Port Elizabeth I think it was in April 1955, a special conference to discuss Bantu education.

A National Conference? Yes. Was that held at New Brighton? No, It was held

at the Moslem Institute. 15 Where is that? It is in Port Elizabeth. In New Brighton? No, it is in town, not in New

Brighton. You know this Provincial Conference of the African

National Congress which was held at Korsten in June 1955 20 Exh. A.17? Yes I was a delegate for the New Brighton Branch to the conference.

I see from a copy of the report, I am quoting from the translation G„1065 (I take it that report was in Xhosa) and there is a paragraph dealing with Mr. Robert 25 M. Matje. Provincial Secretary. I have got that.

And the effect of that report is really that in the Eastern Cape the name of Matje really means Congress? Matje and Dr. Njongwe are really symbolic of Congress in the Eastern Cape? How does the translation read? 30

No, I am putting it to you that that is the


effect of the translation? It is not at all. In fact my reading of the Xhosa version of this report does not in actual fact say Matje was Congress.

Well, what does it say? It says in Xhosa, it shows appreciation for Congress. 5

You mean appreciation of what Matje has meant to Congress in the Eastern Cape? Of what Matje has done for Congress. I just wonder if Mr, Trengrove would allow me to explain here. Matje was the most energetic of all the secretaries we have ever had in the Cape Province. 10 And this portion of the report in fact, only that sentence "by itself, written in Xhosa, appreciates this amount of work that has been done by Mr. Matje for Congress.

We accept that. But it does not mean that Mr. Matje or Dr. Njongwe is Congress. It does not mean 15 that.

I accept that. Now Ntsngani, I just want to refer to some of the meetings that you dealt with in your evidence. And the first meeting was the meeting of the 13th June 1954, page 9632 Volume 48. Now Segoni was one of the 20 most constant attendants on behalf of the Special Branch at your meetings over these years 1952 to 1956, wasn't

he? In fact all the Special Branch men were.

But I am talking about Segoni particularly? Yes, he was. 25

He attended meeting after meeting at New Brighton is that correct? Yes.

And what is Segoni? Is he a Xhosa? No, he is not, to my knowledge.

What is he? I don't know. He could be a 30 or a Pondo.


You don't know? He is not a Xhosaj in fact, he does not know the Xhosa language. He speaks a con-coction of Xhosa, Pondo, Zulu and so on. BY MR. JUSTICE KENNEDY:

I thought he said he was a Xhosa? No, he is not 5

a Xhosa. Well, he said under oath that he was a Xhosa, as

far as I know. Well, we can say he is a Xhosa. I may be mistaken. He said that his home language

was Xhosa. I do not deny that he said it. 10 But you contradict him? Yes, in this that he

Gomes from Umzimkulu, and in that part ofthe Transkel... They are mostly Bacas ? Yes and Pondos and

Zulus, and they speak a concoction of these languages. They don't speak proper Xhosa. 15 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TRENGROVE (CTD):

At this meeting of the 13th June 1954, page 9632, Nkalipi spoke, and you spoke after him. One of the things that Nkalipe said at the meeting was that "there is no evil or Satan that surpasses the way that the Europeans 20 are treating us." Would that be a type of statement which it would be proper to make at African National Congress meetings, to tell the non-White people there that there is no evil or Satan worse than the way the Europeans are treating them? Do you think that that would be condu- 25

cive to good racial relationships? Such expressions, in fact, being uttered in Xhosa language, would only mean this: that one has not to look for hell somewhere else, but they were in hell in South Africa.

On account of the way that the Europeans are 30 treating you? I am coming to the point. One has to


look at the manner in which the African people more par-ticularly are being hindered by tte authorities, the manner in which the unjust laws are applied to them. BY MR. JUSTICE KENNEDY:(to Mr. Trengrove)

Do you wish this witness to give an interpretation 10 of the evidence given by Nkalipi? No, I am asking whether he would agree with that type of statement being made. WITNESS; I would agree with it in the light of the inter-pretation which I give to it.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TRENGROVE:(COTP) 10 That the Europeans must be blamed for the hell

that is being suffered by thenon-whjfce people? Because they have the vote, they elect this irresponsible Govern-ment, therefore they are to blame.

And do you think that that would improve the feel- 15 ings of the non-white people in Port Elizabeth to the white people? Why do you make that type of statement? One would not only end with that statement, because that would be in the course of explaining the set-up in South Africa; showing the people the so-called responsible electorate, 20 which is purely white,* how they go to the extent of electing such an irresponsible, viscious Government. And go further to show the people the manner in which they can fight against...

(MR. JUSTICE KENNEDY: I really don't know what this is 25 all about, having regard to the simple question.

MR. JUSTICE RUMPFE: He is explaining it.) MR. TRENGROVE: I just want to know whether this type of statement you think will improve the relationships between 30 the whites and the non-whites in this country? Mr. Trengrove, I am getting to the statement. Because I have listened to many speeches, not only Nkalipi,using such

16307. M.B.E. NTSANGANI.

phrases, but one cannot only use that phrase alone. He goes further to explain what he means by this phrase only. Now those are the types of explanations which do not appear in the reporting of these Special Branch men. No res-ponsible member of Congress could ever stand on a public 5 platform and say: "To hell with the Malan Government" without substantiating his argument, without elaborating by what he means by saying "To Hell with the Malan Government."

Your own speech- you admitted that you had in your speech referred to the tin of paint incident at Port Eliza- 10 beth, but you said that you were trying to show the people that the Government at all times was prepared to arrest people in a manner which was foul and brutal. That was your object? To exhibit to the people the brutality of the Government towards non-whites when they are arrested? 15

That was your object? One does not only end there again, Mr. Trengrove. BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER: Was that your object? It was the object, but I did not end only with that statement; by itself it is meaningless. One has to show, and I think I did it 20 several times - not only myself, but all the other speakers-why this Government in fact does these things, more par-ticularly to the African people. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TRENTROVE (CONTD):

Why does the Government do that to the African 25 people? Because it does not regard the African people as human beings. In fact we have been treated worse than dogs in this country.

Did you want the public in Port Elizabeth to understand that? In fact... 30

{Interrupting) Did you want the people at Port


Elizabeth to understand that? I am coming to that point. BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF: We may save time if you could answer that shortly, and then go on to explain. We wanted the people to understand why these things areebeing done to them and how they can fight back, to remove these disabil- 5 ities. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TRENGROVE (CONTD):

What disabilities? This brutal treatment? How to remove that? That is the disabilities like the Pass Laws which result in this treatment. 10

You say you referred to this tin of paint incident and other members too, in many speeches on many occasions for this purpose? Yes, it was not the only one. There are many other incidents we referred to similar to this one of the tin of paint. 15 BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER:

At the time did you have any belief or view as to why these two people stole the tin of paint? Y es I did.

What was your belief at the time? My belief at the time, and I think I still hold that belief, is that 20 the African people firstly...

No - you believe two men stole a tin of paint? Y es.

Did you have any belief why they stole that tin of paint? I am getting to the why, your Lordship. 25 They are underpaid, As a result of their being under-

paid they resort to stealing. That is to add to the little income they have. This stealing in fact is not something that is within them, it is something which has been created by the co nditions in which they live. 30


what I really want to know is did you at any time think they stole the tin of paint because they were starving,

hungry? My referring to these two men stealing this tin of paint, I went further than that in all these meetings, to explain that these are not the only two men who do this 5 sort of thing.

I think I am asking a question which you can answer without an explanation. </hen you made this speech, this speech here, according to the Crown evidence you are alleged to have said: "These two men stole a tin of paint on 10 account of starvation." Did you think that, or did you believe that? Yes, I said it, and I believed it, but the point I am trying to explain is that I did not only say that. That was not the only thing I said about it. I went further to explain that these are not the only people. 15

One would find the majority, more particularly of the African youth, doing these sort of things. Not because they want to do them, but the conditions in which they live, the low wages they are paid by their bosses, force them to resort to stealing. 20

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TRENGROVE (CONTD): Could one ever regard the people who lost their

lives in this tin of paint incident as having lost their lives in the battle against the evil forces of Fascism? Was this part of the struggle against Fascism? Sacrifi- 25 cing lives in these riots? No we did not reagrd the eleven people who died as what you say we regarded them as. (MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF: Just repeat the phrase.)

As 'having given their lives in the battle against the evil forces of Fascism?' No, that was not 30 air attitude. Our attitude was that these people are the


victims of a brutal, vicious Government.

Have a look at this edition of Isizwe, October 1955. P.D.N.168. If you turn to the previous page you will see it is an article headed "Tin of Paint Costs Lives.

Yes I see it. Just read the last paragraph of that article.

"All glory to those who have perished?" Yes. Just read it aloud. "All glory to those

who haveperished in this noble struggle, all glory to those who remain true, to those martyrs who have made the supreme sacrifice in the battle against the evil forces of Fascism."

You see, in that article published by Matje he seems to suggest that these people gave their lives in the struggle against Fascism. Why? Why would Matje do a thing like that if it is not African National Congress

policy? I explained yesterday that this journal is not a journal of the African National Congress.

That you have explained. I am not asking you that. And whatever is contained in this journal cannot be

associated with the African National Congress. These are the views of Mr. Matje as an individual. And one would not find a single document of the African national Con-gress using these words as regards these eleven people who died.

That bioscope that was burned down there that night, did the police burn it down? I did not hear the question?

The Rio Bioscope that was burned down, did the police burnit? Our people say that in fact Government 3< agents were at work that night. They incited more par-


ticularly the younger men to commit such acts. We never said the police did it.

So you say that the riot there was really incited by the Government,the burning down of the buildings, the overturning of cars and the burning of them and so on, was 5 incited by the Government? The Government agents, that was our belief, incited some of our people to commit these acts. BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER: On what was that belief based? That belief was based on the same belief we had of the 10 cheesa-cheesa army, and that the Government would use such acts to incite our people to commit such acts with the intention of blaming the African National Congress, holding them responsible for these acts. Our attitude was exactly the same on this question of the burning of the Rio Bioscope, 15 etc.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TRENGROVE (CONTD): You would not say that these riots are spontaneous

riots by the poeple?—- Not by the people - they could be spontaneous, being engineered by the Government agents. 20

Now at the same time there was a riot at East London. Do you remember that? Also in the Eastern Cape. You remember the East London riot? Yes, it was a few days after...in fact there was a disturbance at East London a few days after the disturbance in Port Elizabeth. 25

V/here a nun was murdered. Do you remember? You read the papers in the Eastern Cape? Yes.

And just after that there was a riot at Kimber-ley? There was a disturbance at Kimber^, yes.

It was also a riot? I call them disturbances. 30


Was your attitude that they were all engineered "by

the Government? Yes, that was my attitude, and I think also the attitude of many of my colleagues.

I see. This Youth League Bulletin issued in the Transvaal 1.J.M.63 B, there is an article at page 3: "shoot- 5 ing practise on Africans." The secaid paragraph reads: "During the last quarter of this epochmaking year 1952 we have observed punctuated onslaughts and devastating murders by police in their attempt to quell spontaneous riots throughout Africa,but surely these brutal attacks on inno- 10 cent freedomloving people will really to nothing to alter these inevitable uprisings. Instead they are going to make the masses of the people more indignant and hence more uprisings will be precipitated by the actions of these blood-thirsty police." And then it refers to the shooting 15 of innocent Africans under the Malan Government, the Smuts Government, and' in the mine strike, the May Day celebrations, Port Elizabeth, Kimberley and East London. Would you

agree with a passage like that? ! don't agree with this that appears in this Bulletin. 20

What don;t you agree with? Well, as I read it it . refers to these incidents, I am merely confining myself to the Port Elizabeth, East London and Kimberley incidents -it refers to them as "inevitable uprisings". My belief is that in fact these disturbances were engineered by 25 Government agents, and going further on this document, this does not represent the view of the African National Congress, nor of the African National Congress You&h League as such. This is the view of tie individual who wrote that "Shooting Practise on Africans." 30

It is not published under the name of any indi-


vidual. You know that. But surely an individual pub-lished this?

No. African National Congress Youth League published it. But this never came, like any other Congress Bulletin, it never came to the Provincial Executive of the 5 African National Congress Youth league for approval to say: "This is good stuff. It must be dished out."

This was African National Congress attitude, and it was your attitude! That goes; to show how ill-informed you are about the African National Congress. 10

In your speech that you dealt with you also re-ferred to the fact that the Government of this country has caused the Africans to be wild? Your attitude is that the actions of the Government have caused the feelings of the Africans to increase in bitterness against them? Is that 15 correct, Ntsangani? I said it yesterday that these inter-pretations are totally wrong.

It was not your attitude that the Africans were being incensed by Government action? What do you mean by incensed? 2U

That they were becoming impatient by the way the Government was treating them, the African masses? If you want me to explain...

(Interrupting)No, I am asking you, is that your 25 attitude? .c. or speculate on what I said particularly

on that sentence, not only at that meeting, or various meetings, I will do so.

Answer the question! Did you hold the belief that the African masses were becoming incensed by the way the Government was treating them? My attitude was that 30 the African people are very tolerant.


BY MR.JUSTICE KENNEDY:

Why don't you answer the question? Did you hold

the view that the African people were becoming incensed or

angered "by the actions of the Government? The answer is

yes or no. Then I prefer the word "angered." They were 5

becoming angry.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TRENGROVE (COTD):

In this speech you also deal with Kenya, and also

in many other speeches. I just want to ask you one or two

questions in connection with all these references that 10

you used to make to Kenya. You in the African National

Congress accepted the position that the people in Kenya were

busy with a liberatory struggle? Under the leadership of

the Kenya African Union, which was led by Jomo Kenyatta

which had nothing to do with the Mau-Mau activities. 15

Why these constant references in your speeches to

the liberatory struggle in Kenya? Why at meeting after

meeting constantly refer to the liberatory struggle in Kenya?

It was because we were more than convinced that Govern-

ment spies amongst our people were busy propagating for 20

the adoption of the methods used by the Mau-Mau in Kenya.

That is why we referred to the cheesa-cheesa army in South

Africa..we were trying to uproot that sort of bad propaganda.

Was your attitude that in Kenya the Government was

using violence against the Kenya people? Yes. 25

And that amongst the Kikuyu the Mau-Mau were re-

taliating by also using violent action? I think I stated

yesterday that my attitude, and the attituae of most of my

colleagues, was that the Mau Mau was a concoction of the

Government... 30

I was not asking that. I am coming to the point.


The Government merely used the Mau Mau to commit these acts

and thereafter would say the Kenya African Union is respon-

sible .

BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF: Your belief was that there were no

Mau Mau so-called, and that there were no atrocities commit- 5

ted by the Mau Mau, but that the Government there falsely

suggested that there were Mau Mau committing atrocities?

No, my belief was that there were Mau Mau but they never

existed as an organisation of the African people. They

existed as a creation of the Government. I don't know 10

whether that explains it?

You mean it was your belief that there were people

who committed atrocities? Yes.

But then the Government pretended that this was an

organisation? I don't know if I fully explained it. 15

My belief was that the Mau Mau in fact was a creation of

the Government, and that these people were incited to

commit these violent acts.

Oh I see. You say in the same way as you thought

here the Government had agents to incite the people here, 20

there originally there was no Mau Mau but the Government

created the Mau Mau by inciting the people to commit the

atrocities? Yes„

I see,

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TRENGROVE (CONTD): 25

So that all the murders against white settlers

in Kenya were being committed at the instigation of the

Government by black Kenya inhabitants? Yes. The Govern-

ment did it with the sole purpose of trying to smash the

Kenya African Union, 30

But the Kenya African Union itself did not resort


to any violence or force in resisting the Government on-slaughts? No, not at all. In fact the leaders of the K.A.U. more particularly Jomo Kenyatta and the others from time to time deplored the violence committed by the Mau Mau. And they expressed the view I am holding, that the Mau May 5 was a creation of the Government. In fact that would he explained more if one were to refer to the confession made by one of the star witnesses in the -trial of Jomo Kenyatta to the effect that he was bribed by the authorities to give false evidence against the K.A.U. and more particularly 10 against its leaders.

You don't accept the position, then, that there was a war in Kenya? a war between the liberating forces and the Government forces in Kenya? I stated the position clearly yesterday that there was a political battle between 15 the Kenya African Union and the authorities on the other hand.

Just purely on a political plane? Purely political.

But that was not the view that the African 20

National Congress held of the Kenya situation? As far as my understanding of the Congress leadership speakers goes, that was the view.

Now one thing you all did in your references to Kenya when you made these speeches was to point out the 25 similarity of the position between the Kenya people and the non-white people in this country? that your struggle was basically the same struggle, with the same objects?

Their one objective was to free themselves«. BY MR. JUSTICE BEKKER: Were the two struggles the same? 30


I beg your pardon?

Was there a parallel in your opinion between the

struggle in Kenya and the struggle in South Africa? My

opinion wqs that the African people in Kenya wanted to

free themselves just as we also in this country want to 5

free ourselves.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TRENGROVE (CONTD):

Now in your references to Kenya, your speeches, you used to point out to the people how land was a question for which people were fighting in Kenya and that your 10 people in South Africa were also fighting for land? BY MR. JUSTICE RUMPFF: You mean inter alia? Yes.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TRENGROVE (CONTD):

One of your struggles was for more land, and the

Kenya people were fighting for that, like your people? 15

That is how I jmderstood it.

You also explained that you were fighting for the

franchise and they were fighting for the franchise in Kenya?

— — Yes that is how I understood it.

In your speeches you pointed out how Yomo Ken- 20

yatta started schools in Kenya and how the Government

tried to suppress those schools and that gave rise to

friction? The establishment of schools as such never

gave rise to friction.

Didn't you in your speeches refer to the fact that25

Yomo Kenyatta tried to establish schools for his people

and that the Kenya Government was against that? Yes,

that we said.

And you showed how the South African Bantu Edu-

cation Act was being imposed on the African people against 30

their will? Yes„

16318 M.BiP. NTSANGANI.

And you showed how as a result of Government action in Kenya the myth of the Mau Mau was being created by the Government, whereas in this country you told the people how the myth of cheesa-cheesa was being created by the Govern-ment? Yes. 5

The African National Congress at all times ex-pressed its full support for the people in the Kenya struggle?

Insofar as the struggle was led by the Kenya African Union, yes.

And you showed how the people in Kenya were a 10 defenceless people against the Government which had at its disposal an amy and a police force to suppress and oppress them? And that in this country it was the same thing, also a defenceless people against the Government? Yes, the Kenya African people had no firearms under the leader- 15 ship of the Kenya African Union.

And I put it to you that the African National Con-gress used to tell the people that what was happening in Kenya was the retaliation by these defenceless people, and justifiable retaliation because they were being attacked 20 by the Government - they were entitled to retaliate in the way that they were? That is far from the truth.

In this African LodestarSAM,9 there is an article on Kenya. This theory of how the Mau Mau came into being in Kenya, being a Government invention, where did you get 25 that theory from? I got this theory from general discussions with my colleagies, reading of newspapers..

What k:.nd of newspapers? The Evening Post, New Age, u-- nration and some overseas papers I sometimes got from Matje and Dr. N;iongwe, and also extracts of speeches by 30 leaders of the Kenya African Union, more particularly Yomo

t.


Kenyatta.

Where did you get those? They appeared in the daily

press in the coun try. More Particularly New Age.

Because in an article "Is it Genecide?" this

theory that you have set forth is set out, and then it con- 5

eludes at page 4: "History is being made in Kenya. It

is a history of brutality and blood" and "How are the

defenceless people of Kenya defending themselves against

this barbarism set loose? They are using all the methods

that a people in their position must necessarily resort to 10

retaliation, strikes, boycott of business, the people are

fighting back.'" This article seems to suggest that a

defenceless people would not only be entitled but justified

in retaliating, and that was happening in Kenya? Does

that article suggest that the people in fact retaliated 15

by committing any acts of violence? Because if I understood

you correctly, it suggested the means of retaliation.

You can read this for yourself. If that is your

explanation you can say so. (Witness examines report).

(MR. JUSTICE KENNEDY: Where is this in the record? 20 S.A.M. 9, page 3126).

WITNESS: At the end of this it says: "How are the defence-

less people of Kenya defending themselves against this

barbarism set loose? They are using all methods that a

people in their position" (that is people who have no arms) 25

and it suggests the methods, "Strikes, boycotts of business."

That is how they are fighting back, by boycotts. It

does not suggest that they were fighting back by arms.

Your reading of the article is totally wrong!

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TRENGROVE (CONTDS): 30

Then there is an article in another Lodestar,

Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812

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