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A320 accuracy check

Hi,it is said in the FCOM that the check is valid provided the distance difference isless than 3 miles (1 mile for approach). no mention of difference in bearing

!hat if the bearing difference is ", #$ or %$&

8th May 2010, 19:20#2

(permalink )

hetfield

'oin ate Mar #$$*+ocation Choroni, sometimesosts 1,1$-

ont/nderstand.

More thanone orethree miles

off is off.0ts thatsimple.

9th May 2010, 00:41 #3 (permalink )

dmiral3%*

'oin ate '/l #$$-+ocation 2ermange 34osts 154

s a M67M6 is the preferred !a to fi8 the position b the FM9(no 29), onl M6 val/es might be mentioned. :he second bestconventional fi8 is ;earing7M6, that is !hat o/ are referring to.0ts been a !hile since 0 have been on the 3#$, and 0 dont haveaccess to a ma/al, b/t !e and compared the

;earingpointer and the M6 to the FM9 map. istance acc/rateand pointer pointing at the t/ned station ? acc/rac check ok.

@ic


foff

'oin ate pr #$$5+ocation !orld!ideosts #1

lets take an e8ample then.FM2C sas =O>7M6 ;C is located bearing 1"$&7#$ nm b/t ra!data are 1*"&7#1nm. according to FCOM a check is valid ifdistance difference is less than 3 nm b/t doesnt sa anthing

abo/t difference in bearing. the above test is then valid or not (1"& of bearing diff A 1 nm of distance diff)


iaB @ot s/re if its correct, b/t o/ co/ld calc/late the distancebet!een the t!o points (ra! data and FM2C) in this case abo/t

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'oin ate /g #$$-+ocation DEge 14osts "#

".%%nm !hich is more than 3... then again, that might be lookingat it in an overl mathematical !a


fredgrav

'oin ate Ma #$$-+ocation 0talge ##osts 1"%

G/ote

FM2C sas =O>7M6 ;C is located bearing 1"$&7#$ nm b/tra! data are 1*"&7#1nm. according to FCOM a check is valid ifdistance difference is less than 3 nm b/t doesnt sa anthingabo/t difference in bearing. the above test is then valid or not (1"& of bearing diff A 1 nm of distance diff)

:he acc/rac check is done both on distance and bearing1. DISTANCE: compare @=0 distance !ith FM distance on @or check !ith FM >O2 page error shall be less than or e/al to 3@M (1 @M on approach).2. BEARING: Check that the needle (ra! data) overlies thecorresponding bl/e navaid smbol (FM comp/ted).

Hope that helps,fredgrav

10th May 2010, 03:06 #7 (permalink )

@e/pielot

'oin ate pr #$1$+ocation lterac =alleosts 13

G/ote

!hat if the bearing difference is ", #$ or %$& G/ote

2. BEARING: Check that the needle (ra! data) overlies thecorresponding bl/e navaid smbol (FM comp/ted).

hmm.....meaning no difference allo!ed

10th May 2010, 07:22 #8 (permalink )

foff

'oin ate pr #$$5+ocation !orld!ideosts #1

thtats the point

10th May 2010, 07:36 #9 (permalink )

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Hopef/ll some simple ans!ers for an irb/s novice here

Jmk#

11th May 2010, 12:20 #15 (permalink )

r/dderr/dderrat

'oin ate Oct #$$5+ocation DEosts #35

Hi Jall,

0f o/ are not @=igating to a !apoint beca/se o/ haveselected a Heain2 ? then it cant appl an constraints beca/se itma never get there.

Last edited by rudderrudderrat : 11th May 2010 at 12:22. Reason: spelling

11th May 2010, 12:30 #16 (permalink )

Jall Mk#

'oin ate ec #$$4+ocation melbosts %%*

ok tn8s >/dd 0 g/ess that means seeing as !e are no! inheading mode lt constraints !o/ld normall onl be associated!ith a pre installed flt pln in the MCD right 0 0magine that an+: constraints that need to be considered (from the previo/s fltpln ro/te) !o/ld have to be man/all selected b the pilot on theFCD :hats the !a 0 am forming a pict/re here !ith all this.0f the +at nav is then reset to managed as in back to!ards the fltpln does the O C+; revert back to managed C+; a/tomaticall

ll fascinating st/ff, eah 0 kno! 0 gotta get a life right Jellam abo/t to /ndertake a b/s co/rse A so far this pre st/d st/ff

0ve been doing has left me !ith a head f/ll of st/ff that !o/ldchoke a bro!n dog

Jmk#

11th May 2010, 13:39 #17 (permalink )

foff

'oin ate pr #$$5

+ocation !orld!ideosts #1

b design o/m/st have amanaged lateral

mode to have amanaged verticalmode. thats !h!hen o/ goheading, initialC+; or 69, bothmanaged modes,cant bemaintained. then

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reversion !ith atriple click toselected (Knotmanaged) mode,ie O69 orOC+;. coming

back to @=doesnt implcoming back tovertical managedmode previo/slengaged. o/m/st rep/sh toengage again themanaged verticalmode

si!" Al#i#u$e Aler#er a# Tra!si#io!

On less sophisticated aircraft !hich do not have bells and !histles tonotif pilots that the aircraft is passing or approaching the transitionaltit/de7level, has anone heard of the basic altit/de alerter being set tothe transition altit/de7level so the a/dible chime acts as a reminder toset the altimeter to standard or G@H or vice versa n pros or cons(dangers) of /sing this method

24th April 2010, 15:06 #2 (permalink )

:/.11%

'oin ate Feb #$$5+ocation /striage 3#osts 1%"

Jhile 0 onl havefirst?hande8perience on fe!airliners, 0 havenever heard of analert anno/ncingthe passing of thetransition altit/de.0n m opinion,s/ch a sstem!o/ld be plag/ed!ith one ma

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terrain sit/ationaro/nd the field.For e8ample, in=06 it is at "$$$ft!hile a fe! milesf/rther east,

H/ngar /ses1$.$$$ft. 00>C,0nnsbr/ck has1$."$$ft andnearb 9alBb/rg/ses %$$$ft. 9o 0think it is s/fficientto have the trans.alt noted on thecharts for instantreference ? theseare on the oke

an!a !hendeparting7arriving.9ame !ith the:ransition +evel,!hich takes theG@H and O: intoacco/nt on top ofthe :rans. lt. andis delivered b :C/s/all either via:09 or in adescent clearance.@o!, setting the

:rans. lt in theltit/de lert9stem !o/ld leadto t!o thingsfirstl, the airplane!o/ld level off atthe selected alt.,!hich it is nots/pposed to domost of the time.9econdl and mostimportantl, this

leaves theprobabilit for alevel b/st at theact/all clearedlt7F+. >esettingthe selectedltit/de to !here:C !ants Io/ togo after transition

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so/nds rathererror?prone. 0ncase it might beforgotten to s!itchaltimeters right atthe correct

altit/de7F+, thisaction is linked tothe Climb andpproach checksin m compan toprovide a s/btlereminder and thissstem seems to!ork

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;est bet is to make it part of the depart/re7arrival briefing andget the @F to call : on reaching7passing. 9ome companies /seM9 as the trigger to set standard !hen cleared to a F+ ondepart/re.

Jhilst in the descent set G@H (mabe alread have G@H set on

the standb altimeter !hen o/ initiall get :09) and go intoapproach checks when advised to descend to an altit/de b :C.


MD3$$1

'oin ate 'an #$$4+ocation D9osts #%#

No# a! issue %i#h s#a!$ar$ TA&T'

rather than the bespoke :7:+s favored b some.


gala8 fler

'oin ate ec #$$#+ocation G/abog =alle,D9ge "-osts 1,31-

Glue(all

0 agree and cannot /nderstand !h so man pilots are h/ng /pon changing over 6NC:+I at the :+v or :. '/st change to G@6!hen assigned a level and G@H !hen assigned and altit/de.9imple and prevents level b/sts. 0F :C changes their mind andreclears to a level or altit/de, change back, as appropriate.

2F


eckhard

'oin ate Ma #$$"+ocation Franceosts 1#"

9pot on 2F.

0 have al!as done the same as o/ s/ggest. 0f o/ have a thirdstandb altimeter, o/ can al!as leave it on G@H /ntil o/ arethro/gh :.lt, in case o/ need a /ick check on o/r altit/deafter o/ve set 9:.

One small nerd gripe M /nderstanding is that 1$13.#7#5.5# isnot G@6, it is 9tandard ltimeter 9etting.

G@6 is the reading on the altimeter !hen o/ are on the airfield!ith 9: set. 0n other !ords, G@6 is the press/re altit/de of theairfield.

0ve never /sed it b/t apparentl its p/rpose is that it ma be

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/sed at times of ver lo! atmospheric press/re !hen it ma beimpossible to set G@H. :he airfield broadcasts the G@6 and o/set 1$13.#7#5.5# and add the proced/ral heights to this val/e inorder to fl the approach (0 think). Has anbod else come acrossthis


Jhatsit oingno!

'oin ate pr #$1$+ocation DEosts "

G/ote

;oeings (-3-, at least) have an +: 092>66 indication ifo/ are still in G@H if o/ pass the transition level on climb o/t.:he reverse is tr/e on descent.

0m not s/re !hich -3- o/ fl 0mbracableCr/nk b/t on the one 0 flthe +: 092>66 message onl appears !hen there is a differenceof more than #$$ feet bet!een captains and f7os altimeters.

0f o/ pass transition altit/de !itho/t setting 9: then the G@H orGF6 setting !ill t/rn amber and become bo8ed, and like!ise ondescent the 9: !ill t/rn amber and become bo8ed if o/ forget tochange at transition level.


0mbracableCr/nk

'oin ate Oct #$$*+ocation earborn,

Michigan, D9osts 5

Io/ are correct. :hanks.


capt. solipsist

'oin ate Mar #$$5+ocation pre?dep areaosts %1

'/st do !hatever is in o/r 9Os. 0f o/ do it often eno/gh, thechances of forgetting it decreases.

9ame principle applies !ith prepare cabin for landing commandsd/ring descent. Once o/ do it often eno/gh, o/ onl forget it

half the time, not 5$ of it

n!a, thats !h there are # badl?paid pilots in the cockpit to

remind each other !hat the themselves have forgotten


harro!ing %he! #o cha!"e)

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'oin ate Oct 1555+ocation ;risbanege ""osts 5#

gala8 fler and gl/eball0f :C ask for o/r altit/de or level passing for separationp/rposes, !hat !o/ld o/r dela in response be


JingoJango

'oin ate 9ep #$$-+ocation DEosts 3#5

Je operate in e8actl the manner 2l/eball and co have stated. 0t!as also the !a i !as trained from as earl as C+ and 0>.

;/t re o/r /estion abo/t reporting level7ltit/de passing. Jeal!as have the standb altimeter set on the local G@H so aglance at that !o/ld give an immediate ans!er to :Cs /estion.

6g epart/re clearance is to a F+, at a sensible phase of the

depart/re o/ set standard. :his !o/ld be !ell belo! the :.Handed over to radar and the ask for passing altit/de. 9o a lookat the standb !o/ld give o/ the ans!er !itho/t an kind ofdela !hich o/ talk abo/t. 0 cannot recall ever being cleared toan altit/de and then for :C to ask for a report of m passinglevel.


gala8 fler

'oin ate ec #$$#+ocation G/abog =alle,D9ge "-osts 1,31-

s *i!"o *a!"o sas, besides at belo! : levels, the climb rate!ill make an report obsolete in moments an!a :C does not

need a altit/de passing report !ithin 1$$ feet. 0t !o/ld take adifference bet!een G@H and 9: of ." inches to be a factor.

2F


fireflbob

'oin ate '/n #$$1+ocation @ottingham, DEosts #,$#*

G/ote

0f :C ask for o/r altit/de or level passing for separationp/rposes, !hat !o/ld o/r dela in response be

harro!ing, mabe the r/les are different in /stralia b/t here is!hat the DE does?

From the DE 0?

:he vertical position of an aircraft at, or belo!, an :ransitionltit/de !ill normall be e8pressed in terms of ltit/de. :he vertical

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2nd May 2010, 12:59 #17 (permalink )

eckhard

'oin ate Ma #$$"+ocation Franceosts 1#"

:hanks 2l/eball,thats ho! 0/nderstand it as!ell.

G@6 ma also be of/se d/ring ver highatmosphericpress/re, altho/ghone proced/re that 0sa! told pilots toset the /pper limitof G@H on thealtimeter and if all the aircrafthave the samealtimeter setting.

0 think most modernaltimeters aread.,on ecember31, 15*4. gatais located innorthern9iberia. :he!eather !asclear and ver

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cold at the time,!ithtemperat/resbet!een ?%$&and ?"4&.

:he lo!estpress/re evermeas/red !as#".*5 inches(4-$ha), seton Oct. 1#,15-5, d/ring:phoon :ip inthe !esternacific Ocean.:hemeas/rement!as based on aninstr/mentalobservationmade from areconnaissanceaircraft.

n!a, 0 agreethat G@6 is incommon /sage tomean1$13.#7#5.5#, b/tcommon /sagedoesnt make itright '/st look at allthe s/permarketcheck?o/ts !ith 1$items or lessdisplaed Ho!man times haveo/ heard pilotsrefer to tracking aradial from an@;

0 am realisticeno/gh to admitthat the risk ofmis/nderstanding issmall in the case ofG@6 and that itdoesnt reallmatter. +ang/ageevolves and all that,

8/19/2019 15may10 v4

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b/t it still grates abit

ct/all, impreciselang/age can havesafet

reperc/ssions. :hean?ir -#- at :F@hit the terrain in theholding patternbeca/se thecontroller said, :/rnleft instead of, +eftt/rn.

Jhat he meant !as,6nter the hold, andonce established, fl

a pattern !ith leftt/rns.

Jhat the an?ircre! /nderstood!as, Jhen o/reach the beacon,enter the hold bt/rning to the left. tragicmis/nderstanding.

0 once had a co?pilot

!ho read o/t part of a 90 as follo!s:/rn at the latter of 1"$$ft or # M6.He didnt see the

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6nglish becameconf/sed over themeanings ofprescribed andproscribed.

OE, rant over. 0llcra!l back /nderm rock

Ca# C Circli!" /a!oeuvre

Hi ll,Fling a Cat C tpe aircraft and !as !ondering is there a standardcircling manoe/vre or does each man/fact/rer have their o!n version of perfection 0m referring specificall to circling to the opposite end of the0 r/n!a. 0 kno! the break off is %" degrees b/t for ho! long and is

that ad

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is that ad

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18/80

;OC er rd/a ad strae/s 'oin ate Mar #$$$+ocation DEosts 11,1*-

9ince !e kno! nothing abo/t /arefellah it is !orth ca/tioninghim7her that :erps allo! onl 1.-nm from the end of allr/n!as for their minima as opposed to %.#nm for ansOps.

Cicling can be determineda) on prescribed tracks

b) !itho/t prescribed tracks?refer to individ/al airfields to find o/t.

0n broad br/sh terms0f a) o/ are e8pected to follo! the tracks0f b) then as long as o/ stick to the sighting r/les, prescribedarea and minim/m heights o/ can fl ho! o/ like aro/nd thefield.


Bonnair

'oin ate '/l #$$-+ocation :he @etherlandsge #*osts %*

:hanks for the addition.


gatb/sdriver

'oin ate /g #$$#+ocation so/th englandosts 1-*

0 believe :6>9 /ses #" degrees O; !hilst @?O9 /ses #$.

For -"- (for /s)

6stablish on 0 2r n flap #$ (if 0+9 remember not to arm pp).On reaching circling alt in alt hold set M alt. Jhen vis/al breakoff %" degrees for %" secs (can do 4$74$). o!n!ind, abeam thethreshold fl for 3secs71$$ (!e /se L7? 1sec71kt H7:). 9tart base!ith grad/al descent (3?%$$7min). Flap 3$.

M to be flo!n is the one associated !ith the initial 0 flo!n.


Checkboard

'oin ate /g 1554+ocation 68?pat /ssie inthe DEosts 1,%$4

Fling a Cat C tpe aircraft and !as !ondering is there a standardcircling manoe/vre or does each man/fact/rer have their o!nversion of perfection

@o, each compan /ses the man/fact/rers advice in theman/fact/rers training doc/ment, then changes it according to thee8perience (or lack of) of the training department.

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0m referring specificall to circling to the opposite end of the 0r/n!a. 0 kno! the break off is %" degrees b/t for ho! long and isthat ad

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final.

Jith regard to timing of the do!n!ind leg. :he timing polic !as anold one from co/ntless ears back !hen bad !eather lo! levelcirc/its sometime enco/ntered 0MC d/ring parts of the do!n!indleg. 0n those cases timing !as the method /sed depending on

height and it !as acceptable to go 0MC b/t for short periods onl.Hence timing. 0n those das a circling M hadnt been inventedand it !as a case of preflight st/d of relevant aerodrome chartsand familiarit !ith the terrain.

Jith the advent of M6 or availibilit of a reliable distance aid,there is nothing to stop o/ from e8tending do!n!ind to keep!ithin the limits of %.# nm circling M (0CO). fter all that is !hthe distance limit is p/blished as part of aircraft categories. 0t isanother stor altogether if o/ are /nable to keep the aerodrome insight beca/se of red/ced visibilit. missed approach !o/ld haveto be cond/cted. ;/t if visibilit is not restricted, then /se the e8tra

distance do!n!ind to avoid the problem of being too high on baseand final for a stabilised approach.

Jith a relativel high circling M there is a mth that at night o/can descend belo! the circling M (potentiall dangero/s /nlesso/ kno! e8actl the position of the critical obstacle that dictatesthe M) at an time do!n!ind or base in order to s/it the profileof o/r aircraft tpe. :he designers of the p/blished circling Mco/ldnt care less abo/t o/r profile descent problem. 0t thenbecomes o/r problem and the v/lt/res a!ait o/r c/stom if o/choose to drop belo! the p/blished M at night /ntil safelensconced on final.


>I>-34Tdriver

'oin ate '/n #$$*+ocation 60osts 31

nother /estion !ith regard to circling manoevre and protectedareas.

ans Ops sas o/ m/st sta !ithin %.#nm of the thresholds of allr/n!as. oes that mean that the controlling a/thorit m/stens/re this area is kept clear from other aircraft

For e8ample, isa, =O> M6 pproach $% +eft, circle to land >##>ight, /pon breaking right for a left hand do!n!ind, to!ercleared a compan aircraft to take off on >## >ight. 0ve noproblem !ith this as !e !ere do!n!ind at this point andobvio/sl f/ll vis/al !ith airfield and terrain.

M onl problem !o/ld be if, as !e broke right decided to goaro/nd, and the go aro/nd proced/re (for arg/ment sakes) !asstraight ahead on $% +eft, then !e co/ld potentiall be in conflict!ith the a7c taking off

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0s the controller correct to allo! the aircraft to take off


;OC er rd/a ad strae/s 'oin ate Mar #$$$+ocation DEosts 11,1*-

0 cannot see !hat the prolem is ? the controller !aited /ntil o/!ere on a divergent track, es 0f o/ then decided to carr o/ta g7a, o/ !o/ld t/rn the shortest !a back onto the centreline of $%+ to fl the g7a, b !hich time o/ !o/ld have been !ell clearof the o/tbo/nd track, and, of co/rse, carring o/t a vis/almanoe/vre, the controller !o/ld no do/bt e8pect o/ not to hitthe departing.


Checkboard

'oin ate /g 1554+ocation 68?pat /ssie inthe DEosts 1,%$4

Hmmm rett poor post, Tee E

G/ote

@ot necessaril so ? especiall at night !here gro/nd feat/resma not be discernible and it is impossible to see if o/ aremaintaining safe terrain clearance of %$$ ft (Cat C).

:he %$$ terrain clearance for vis/al manoe/vring in /stralia is fordaytime only , as 0 recall.

G/ote

Once o/ deliberatel elect to descend belo! the p/blishedcircling M on do!n!ind or base, o/ are entirel responsiblefor o/r o!n terrain clearance. Onl a co/rageo/s pilot !o/ldrisk descending on base /ntil o/ are established !ithin theapproach spla.

@ot so, the !hole point of vis/al circling, is that o/ are maintainingvisual terrain clearance. Jith that terrain clearance (i.e. seeing thegro/nd ? o/ ma descend safel. 6ver flight has to get prettclose to the gro/nd to land

G/ote

0n some co/ntries a 0 or =909 ma be seen on base leg b/tobstacle clearance not g/aranteed /ntil !ithin pl/s or min/s 1"degrees either side of e8tended r/n!a centre?line. 9hortans!er ont descend /ntil on final.

9ee above. :hat statement is simpl not correct.

G/ote

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Jith regard to timing of the do!n!ind leg. :he timing polic!as an old one from co/ntless ears back !hen bad !eatherlo! level circ/its sometime enco/ntered 0MC d/ring parts of thedo!n!ind leg.

:iming a circ/it is not /s/all polic ? it is a tehni!ue. Co/ntlessears back m/st mean 15#$ or so @I aircraft circling !hoenco/nters 0MC (even in 15#$) is no longer vis/al circling

G/ote

0n those cases timing !as the method /sed depending onheight and it !as acceptable to go 0MC b/t for short periodsonl.

9ee above ? sill comment.

G/ote

Hence timing. 0n those das a circling M hadnt beeninvented and it !as a case of preflight st/d of relevantaerodrome charts and familiarit !ith the terrain.

Ies ? in 15#$, or before ? is this a histor lesson

G/ote

Jith the advent of M6 or availibilit of a reliable distance aid,there is nothing to stop o/ from e8tending do!n!ind to keep!ithin the limits of %.# nm circling M (0CO).

Jhilst a /ick look at some guidane is OE, o/ appear to beass/ming ever M6 is located at the landing r/n!a thresholdhere

G/ote

Jith a relativel high circling M there is a mth that at nighto/ can descend belo! the circling M (potentiall dangero/s/nless o/ kno! e8actl the position of the critical obstacle thatdictates the M) at an time do!n!ind or base in order to s/itthe profile of o/r aircraft tpe.

0t is not a mth ? it is approved proced/re Io/ descend accordingto o/r descent profile. s o/ have the r/n!a, or lightsassociated !ith the r/n!a in sight, o/ have a straight line ofsight, !hich K no terrain in bet!een for a standard descent.

G/ote

:he designers of the p/blished circling M co/ldnt care less

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abo/t o/r profile descent problem.

@o, the dont. :hats beca/se the circling M is for irling ? thedescent to the r/n!a is not circling.


capt. solipsist

'oin ate Mar #$$5+ocation pre?dep areaosts %1

Checkboard,

Io/ beat me to the p/nch.

Cheers


:ee 6mm 'oin ate '/n #$$*+ocation /straliaosts %43

G/ote

:he %$$ terrain clearance for vis/al manoe/vring in /stralia isfor daytime only , as 0 recall.

:hanks for that info. 0 !as /na!are that the Cat C circling of %$$feet above terrain7obstacle did not appl at night. 0n that case !hatis the mandator terrain clearance (if an) at night d/ring circling:he sarcastic reference to the 15#$s in o/r other replies indicatesa degree of immat/rit. Eindl refrain.


3-"-"

'oin ate pr #$$"+ocation /straliaosts *%$

G/ote

G/ote0n some co/ntries a 0 or =909 ma be seen on base leg b/tobstacle clearance not g/aranteed /ntil !ithin pl/s or min/s 1"degrees either side of e8tended r/n!a centre?line. 9hortans!er ont descend /ntil on final.9ee above. :hat statement is simpl not correct.

From 0 /stralia

@ote 1. :?=909. :he night aBim/th spla is normall increased to

3$ degrees to permit :?=909 to be visible on base leg. Ho!ever,obstacle clearance is not g/aranteed /ntil the aircraft is !ithin theapproach obstacle clearance s/rface. ccordingl, :?=909 sho/ldnot be /sed for approach slope g/idance /ntil the aircraft is aligned!ith the r/n!a.


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aterpster

'oin ate pr #$$5+ocation 9an Clemente, Costs %5

G/ote

9ince !e kno! nothing abo/t /arefellah it is !orth ca/tioninghim7her that :erps allo! onl 1.-nm from the end of allr/n!as for their minima as opposed to %.#nm for ansOps.

China irlines learned that the hard !a in Eorea a fe! ears ago.

:he :6>s circling criteria are abs/rd and have been held in disdainb all safet e8perts for ears. rg/ments have been made beforethe F for improved criteria.

Finall, the F did approve greatl improved circling criteria inChange #1 to :6>s b/t /nending F politics are keeping thosechanges from being p/blished.


3-"-"

'oin ate pr #$$"+ocation /straliaosts *%$

G/ote

s o/ have the r/n!a, or lights associated !ith the r/n!a insight, o/ have a straight line of sight, !hich K no terrain inbet!een for a standard descent.

Circa 15*$ a @M -$- fle! into a mo/ntain at night on descentinto ;ali. :he cre! reported airport lights in sight on descent.Ho!ever, the airport lights s/ddenl disappeared from vie! d/e toterrain bet!een aircraft and airport. :he cre! of the -$- tho/ght it!as a momentar clo/d and contin/ed descent. :he !ere !rong.


Checkboard

'oin ate /g 1554+ocation 68?pat /ssie in the DEosts 1,%$4

fter the Monarch iperChieftain disaster, in !hichthe aircraft fle! into thegro/nd !hile circling atnight, the /stralian 0!as changed so thatdescending to a %$$ vis/alterrain clearance at night!as prohibited ? all circlingat night m/st be at the

circling M, /ntil aconstant descent to ther/n!a is commenced.

0ve been a!a from OB fora !hile, so dont have thereference.

15#$ refers to the Air

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Navigation Act of 1920.

Jhen 0 said :hatstatement is simpl notcorrect. 0 !as referring to

the ont descend /ntil onfinal. statement. @ot verclear, 0 kno!.

Last edited by "he#board :$th %pril 2010 at 1&:40.

CAT II CAT III aroches

When shtin! a "A $$ r $$$ appra%h, Why is it

s i&prtant t dis%ntin'e the appra%h i the

standy alti&eter sh*s a +a!

28th -epte&er 2009, 15:48

#2

(permalink

)

Microb/rst#$$#

'oin ate Mar #$$"

+ocation Dh... Jhere !as 0

osts 33-

0 think it

is beca/se

if there is

a CH6CE

::

ca/tion

o/ have

to go

aro/nd

refering to

the 9:;I

::.

Other!ise

o/ have

to

compare

!ith the

0>3

attit/de

b means

of

s!itching,

finding

!hich of

28th

-epte&e

r 2009,

16:05

#3 (permalink )

al!as

halff/ll

'oin

ate '/l

#$$5

+ocation

DE

osts "

:he stb

ltimieter is/sed as a

reference

dat/m sho/ld

o/ loose

either the left

or right

ltimeter.

:herfore, if

o/ loose the

stb o/ have

nothing tocompare the

remaining #

against.

6g. Io/ are

fling a Cat#

or 3 and the

FOs lt is

different from

the Capts o/

sho/ldcompare all

three, the #

!hich are

reading the

same are

correct ? the

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the 1 and

# is the

rog/e 0>

and go

aro/nd

referring

to the

health

one.

0 think.

lease can

someone

confirm

odd one o/t

sho/ld not be

follo!ed.

Hope that

makes sense

28th

-epte&e

r 2009,

16:30

#4 (permalink )

>: "

'oin

ate

'/n #$$$

osts

4#"

lease specif

tpe a7c and if

this is o/r

9O or aman/fact/rers

instr/ction. On

the a7c 0ve

flo!n 0 have

no idea !h

this sho/ld be

the case. 0ve

flo!n ;oeing

tpes, both

Cat # basic,

Cat 3 A ;.:hese !ere

both 3 7 fail

operational A #

7 fail passive

a7c. :here are

monitors on all

the relevant

sstems. On

the Cat 3; a7c

the a/toland

monitor !o/ldchange +and 3

? +and #. :hat

!as the

trigger. tin

flag !hich

might not be

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spotted !o/ld

not be a

reason on its

o!n to abort

the approach

if memor

serves me

!ell.

More info

please.

+or%ar$ slis o! a e# sa+e ))

0s it str/ct/rall safe to perform a for!ard slip (f/ll r/dder deflection) on a

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have FM limiting or !arning statements for the sstems affectedso that the f/ll Xaero limitY can be /sed. lso see aircraftsY limit re=a P ma8 speed for f/ll scale control deflection.

:here sho/ld not be an str/ct/ral problem /p to the limitingsideslip angle (possibl defined b phsical r/dder limit 7 airspeed

sched/le). s !ith other str/ct/ral limits there is a margin ofsafet, b/t historicall, the r/dder re/irements did not f/ll coverreversed or high dnamic forces th/s most aircraftman/fact/rers p/blish !arnings 7 advice on these s/b

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airspeed shedule*. %s +ith other strutural limits there is amargin of safety, ....

0 !o/ldnt be prepared to bet on that, especiall if the manoe/vre isbeing enacted in response to a s/dden depress/riBation and7or a

need to initiate a /ick emergenc descent. 9omething alread!ent badl !rong !ith o/r aircraft are o/ that confident that thesame event ? !hatever it !as ? didnt disr/pt the nice tidconditions ass/med for the str/ct/ral design calcs @ever mind thatthere is al!as the iss/e that for certification there is al!as theoption ? certainl for considering handling limits ? to define vario/saircraft responses as deterrent ? and high lateral accel ma beone of those. 9o the O6M and a/thorit ma have satisfiedthemslves that no one in their right mind !ill do e8actl !hat isno! being attempted.

6ven =a 0d take !ith a pinch of salt ? es, there are margins in thestr/ct/ral calcs in terms of D+7++ factors ? b/t those are also there

to acco/nt for things like an imperfectl flo!n manoe/vre comparedto the perfect design case, or errors in the calcs, or repairs to thestr/ct/re, or fatig/e !eakening the str/ct/re, or .... '/st beca/setheres a margin in a cert re/irement, certainl does not mean itsall going to be there to rel on for an given event.

Io/d have to have a blood good reason to be aggressivelsideslipping a s!ept !ing transport.

G/ote

Originall osted b u"ilis#ic A!ius 'he most important onern regarding sideslip is fuel tan#

unporting and engine upsets-at extreme sideslip autoignitionmay help,...but the air entering,... may be so lo+ energy that it +ont matter,...of ourse as you said it depends on the spseifi %M limits,...as far as aerodynamic issues these are mostrelated to instrument indications [if uncorrected]

etc ...not strength

but attaining the pratial slip limit on a /et to me seems...

0d agree !ith that last sentence, b/t not the bit in bold. 9ideslip ist/rned into an effective increase in angle of attack on the lee!ard!ing, in terms of margin to the stall. 9ideslipping a s!ept !ingaircraft to its limits is not something o/ sho/ld be doing lightl.

:here co/ld be some e8tremel nast aerodnamic characteristics!aiting to bite o/.

nd !ith respect to control reversal ? o/ dont even need repeatoscillations. :he art #" manoevres dont even appl a single f/llthro! reversal. 0f o/ stamp on a pedal, !ait /ntil f/ll sideslip, thenstamp to come back ? as opposed to

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attached. ;/t no?ones promising o/ that.

1st May 2009, 00:59 #6 (permalink )

/gilistic nim/s

'oin ate ec #$$*+ocation :he @o:rangression Uoneosts 1,1-"

:hanks, /7S for the clarification

that post of o/rs closes the book on

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6speciall above =a, !here theres no need to be able to appl f/llr/dder.

1st May 2009, 16:34 #10 (permalink )

9@932/pp

'oin ate Oct #$$"+ocation D9osts #,#"-

:he haBards of slips in a s!ept !ing airplane have been to/ched/pon, b/t there are iss/es beond control to be considered. control reversal has been mentioned, b/t in the sense of a pilotrapidl reversing control inp/ts. :his can be dangero/s, b/t anaerodnamic reversal ma also occ/r.

0ve slipped one t/rbo

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:hat brings /p the /estion then, can one simpl slip it once andbe safe 9etting aside the aerodnamic effects of slips in a s!ept!ing config/ration, one m/st ask

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bracket broken on those airplanes, /ntil the !ere /pgraded andpilots !ere enco/raged to stop slipping so m/ch.

0 mention that beca/se even a small, light airplane !hich iscommonl slipped can face str/ct/ral problems, and theresno!here near the load on a small airplane as there is on a large

airplane. Ho!ever, as the airplane gets bigger the proportion ofthe attach bolts and brackets doesnt increase accordingl. ;igairplanes have bigger brackets, bigger fittings, bigger bolts...b/tnot so m/ch as o/ might think...and certainl not in proportionto the increased area and loads that can be developed in/ncoordinated flight.

dd to that the /neven airflo! into engines, the potentiall drasticchange in airflo! over s!ept !ings, and controllabilit iss/es,theres little to be gained. Jhen one slips a s!ept !ing airplane,one isnt increasing drag so m/ch or losing lift ones transferringit from one !ing to the other. 0f one applies spoilers or speed

brakes, on the other hand, one is increasing drag, and this is farmore effective.

nother consideration for performing a slip at a time s/ch as anemergenc descent is control a/thorit and deflection. erforminga slip at high altit/de from cr/ise speeds ma not even bepossible. 0n the ;?-%# for e8ample, o/r controls are locked o/t!ith onl the inboard ailerons available, and r/dder travel islimited !e cant p/t m/ch control a/thorit into a slip and cantcreate m/ch of a slip. :heres a lot of !ing o/t there to t!ist andfle8, and the o/tboard ailerons are locked o/t for this ver reason.:he !hole airplane fle8es to a m/ch greater degree than manpeople realiBe, an!a, and bending it aro/nd even more isnt in

anbods best interest.

0 s/bmit that slips are best left to s/perc/bs, b/t 0 s/bmit thatslips arent so good for s/perc/bs, either. 0ve been fling agairplanes and fire airplanes along !ith other bigger e/ipment forman ears no!, and 0 !ont slip an ir :ractor or a romaderinto a fire or over a po!erline, either. 0 /sed to...b/t having seen!hat 0ve seen from a mechanics perspective, those das arepast.

1st May 2009, 18:02 #11 (permalink )

clive!atson

'oin ate Mar #$$5+ocation olandge ""osts *-

Z/ote[especiall if the manoe/vre is being enacted in responseto a s/dden depress/riBation and7or a need to initiate a /ickemergenc descent.Z/ote[

Mad Flight 9cientist, the p/rpose of an side slip is !o# to givema8im/m rate of descent, it is merel /sed to increase >O !hilelimiting airspeed, and in a variet of tpes it aids for!ard vie!.

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Jith the greatest of respect therefore, 0 s/ggest that o/rscenario of an emergenc descent is an /nlikel /se of themano/vre.

'ohn :/llimore ? m recollections of all C/b variants are clearldifferent from o/rs, altho/gh 0 !o/ld readil agree that the

:iger, 9tampe and itts do it m/ch better :he secret is to get thespeed do!n before one starts slipping.

@ever had the need to tr it in a O!hile limiting airspeed, and in a variet of tpes it aids for!ardvie!. Jith the greatest of respect therefore, 0 s/ggest that o/rscenario of an emergenc descent is an /nlikel /se of themano/vre.

/g/listic Jith even 2>6:6> respect to o/, and the 2>6:69:of respect to Mad Flt 9cientist (JHO 0 E@OJ, E@OJ9 H09 9:DFF), 0s/ggest o/, MI have missed the point 0 !as tring to

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make......#ha# (ei!" #ha# #he si$e sli a!ouvre %oul$ (e o+li##le use i! #he sce!ario o+ a! eer"e!cy $esce!#.

He (and o/) sho/ld kno! that side slip mano/vre !o/ld rankamong one of the most SE'ESS mano/vres to consider if theMO9: rapid rate of descent !as needed. :his !as the O@+I point 0

!as tring to make ? nothing more ? nothing less, and certainlnothing that re/ires comple8 thinking.

0f he (MF9) tho/ght that rapid rate of descent !as derived fromside slipping, then he !as J>O@2, b/t 0 dont think he !ads/ggesting that

2nd May 2009, 05:37 #14 (permalink )

9@932/pp

'oin ate Oct #$$"

+ocation D9osts #,#"-

G/ote

Io/ mechanics m/st sometimes think pilots are a little thick0t seems to !ork both !as. Mechanics think of pilots as verlimited in their capacit, and pilots tend to see mechanics as thelo!er class. 9adl, !here 0 fall into both categories, 0 fill a speciallo!er?tier role beneath either part in !hich 0 can !alk b/t notche! g/m at the same time, can recogniBe a t!elve?point sockett!o o/t of three times, b/t not on the same da !hen ta8ed !ithfling a localiBer.

2nd May 2009, 09:55 #15 (permalink )

glad rag

\;\ div]

'oin ate /g #$$-+ocation dont forget ladisappearancesosts *15

;rilliant and tho/ght provoking post 9@932/pp.

G/ote

Most pilots !o/ld be rather shocked, 0 imagine, to find o/t

8/19/2019 15may10 v4

36/80

Je had one ver senior Captain !ho /sed to train (and perform)these for!ard slips for e8cess height red/ction, on a some!hatreg/lar basis.nd in a 3$$L passenger airplane.Management got !ind of this, and contacted the man/fact/rer,!ho promptl dispatched a compan test pilot o/t to o/r location,

!ith act/al data obtained from certification testing.>es/lt@O pilot ever again for!ard slipped the airplane.

4th May 2009, 17:37 #17 (permalink )

/gilistic nim/s

'oin ate ec #$$*+ocation :he @o :rangression Uoneosts 1,1-"

,uo#e:

Clive *a#so!6

/7S cer#i+ies transport aircrafthe kno!s allabo/t that st/ff

'T: 0 meantcertificated,... 0m

Certified ,...bt!Io/ O9 and 2F hadme spilling m coffee

in the Obstacle

:hread the best

0m

8/19/2019 15may10 v4

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(perhaps a rapid emergenc descent or depress/riBation, or like in the case ofir Canada Flight 1%3 aka the 2imli 2lider)

0m asking this beca/se 0ve read some!here that the r/dder in a heav

8/19/2019 15may10 v4

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sched/le). s !ith other str/ct/ral limits there is a margin ofsafet, b/t historicall, the r/dder re/irements did not f/ll coverreversed or high dnamic forces th/s most aircraftman/fact/rers p/blish !arnings 7 advice on these s/b

8/19/2019 15may10 v4

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same event ? !hatever it !as ? didnt disr/pt the nice tidconditions ass/med for the str/ct/ral design calcs @ever mind thatthere is al!as the iss/e that for certification there is al!as theoption ? certainl for considering handling limits ? to define vario/saircraft responses as deterrent ? and high lateral accel ma beone of those. 9o the O6M and a/thorit ma have satisfied

themslves that no one in their right mind !ill do e8actl !hat isno! being attempted.

6ven =a 0d take !ith a pinch of salt ? es, there are margins in thestr/ct/ral calcs in terms of D+7++ factors ? b/t those are also thereto acco/nt for things like an imperfectl flo!n manoe/vre comparedto the perfect design case, or errors in the calcs, or repairs to thestr/ct/re, or fatig/e !eakening the str/ct/re, or .... '/st beca/setheres a margin in a cert re/irement, certainl does not mean itsall going to be there to rel on for an given event.

Io/d have to have a blood good reason to be aggressivel

sideslipping a s!ept !ing transport.

G/ote

Originall osted b u"ilis#ic A!ius 'he most important onern regarding sid eslip is fuel tan#unporting and engine upsets-at extreme sideslip autoignitionmay help,...but the air entering,... may be so lo+ energy that it +ont matter,...of ourse as you said it depends on the spseifi %M limits,...as far as aerodynamic issues these are mostrelated to instrument indications [if uncorrected]

etc ...not strength

but attaining the pratial slip limit on a /et to me seems...

0d agree !ith that last sentence, b/t not the bit in bold. 9ideslip ist/rned into an effective increase in angle of attack on the lee!ard!ing, in terms of margin to the stall. 9ideslipping a s!ept !ingaircraft to its limits is not something o/ sho/ld be doing lightl.:here co/ld be some e8tremel nast aerodnamic characteristics!aiting to bite o/.

nd !ith respect to control reversal ? o/ dont even need repeatoscillations. :he art #" manoevres dont even appl a single f/llthro! reversal. 0f o/ stamp on a pedal, !ait /ntil f/ll sideslip, thenstamp to come back ? as opposed to

8/19/2019 15may10 v4

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+ocation :he @o:rangression Uoneosts 1,1-"

???no! 0 reall kno!

1st May 2009, 03:05 #7 (permalink )

8/19/2019 15may10 v4

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/pon, b/t there are iss/es beond control to be considered. control reversal has been mentioned, b/t in the sense of a pilotrapidl reversing control inp/ts. :his can be dangero/s, b/t anaerodnamic reversal ma also occ/r.

0ve slipped one t/rbo

8/19/2019 15may10 v4

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8/19/2019 15may10 v4

43/80

the attach bolts and brackets doesnt increase accordingl. ;igairplanes have bigger brackets, bigger fittings, bigger bolts...b/tnot so m/ch as o/ might think...and certainl not in proportionto the increased area and loads that can be developed in/ncoordinated flight.

dd to that the /neven airflo! into engines, the potentiall drasticchange in airflo! over s!ept !ings, and controllabilit iss/es,theres little to be gained. Jhen one slips a s!ept !ing airplane,one isnt increasing drag so m/ch or losing lift ones transferringit from one !ing to the other. 0f one applies spoilers or speedbrakes, on the other hand, one is increasing drag, and this is farmore effective.

nother consideration for performing a slip at a time s/ch as anemergenc descent is control a/thorit and deflection. erforminga slip at high altit/de from cr/ise speeds ma not even bepossible. 0n the ;?-%# for e8ample, o/r controls are locked o/t

!ith onl the inboard ailerons available, and r/dder travel islimited !e cant p/t m/ch control a/thorit into a slip and cantcreate m/ch of a slip. :heres a lot of !ing o/t there to t!ist andfle8, and the o/tboard ailerons are locked o/t for this ver reason.:he !hole airplane fle8es to a m/ch greater degree than manpeople realiBe, an!a, and bending it aro/nd even more isnt inanbods best interest.

0 s/bmit that slips are best left to s/perc/bs, b/t 0 s/bmit thatslips arent so good for s/perc/bs, either. 0ve been fling agairplanes and fire airplanes along !ith other bigger e/ipment forman ears no!, and 0 !ont slip an ir :ractor or a romaderinto a fire or over a po!erline, either. 0 /sed to...b/t having seen

!hat 0ve seen from a mechanics perspective, those das arepast.

1st May 2009, 18:02 #11 (permalink )

clive!atson

'oin ate Mar #$$5+ocation olandge ""osts *-

Z/ote[especiall if the manoe/vre is being enacted in responseto a s/dden depress/riBation and7or a need to initiate a /ickemergenc descent.Z/ote[

Mad Flight 9cientist, the p/rpose of an side slip is !o# to givema8im/m rate of descent, it is merel /sed to increase >O !hile

limiting airspeed, and in a variet of tpes it aids for!ard vie!.Jith the greatest of respect therefore, 0 s/ggest that o/rscenario of an emergenc descent is an /nlikel /se of themano/vre.

'ohn :/llimore ? m recollections of all C/b variants are clearldifferent from o/rs, altho/gh 0 !o/ld readil agree that the:iger, 9tampe and itts do it m/ch better :he secret is to get the

http://www.pprune.org/members/294311-clivewatsonhttp://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4899102&noquote=1http://www.pprune.org/4899294-post11.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/372145-forward-slips-jet-safe.html#post4899294http://www.pprune.org/members/294311-clivewatson

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speed do!n before one starts slipping.

@ever had the need to tr it in a O!hile limiting airspeed, and in a variet of tpes it aids for!ardvie!. Jith the greatest of respect therefore, 0 s/ggest that o/rscenario of an emergenc descent is an /nlikel /se of themano/vre.

/g/listic Jith even 2>6:6> respect to o/, and the 2>6:69:of respect to Mad Flt 9cientist (JHO 0 E@OJ, E@OJ9 H09 9:DFF), 0s/ggest o/, MI have missed the point 0 !as tring tomake......#ha# (ei!" #ha# #he si$e sli a!ouvre %oul$ (e o+li##le use i! #he sce!ario o+ a! eer"e!cy $esce!#.

He (and o/) sho/ld kno! that side slip mano/vre !o/ld rankamong one of the most SE'ESS mano/vres to consider if theMO9: rapid rate of descent !as needed. :his !as the O@+I point 0!as tring to make ? nothing more ? nothing less, and certainl

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nothing that re/ires comple8 thinking.

0f he (MF9) tho/ght that rapid rate of descent !as derived fromside slipping, then he !as J>O@2, b/t 0 dont think he !ads/ggesting that

2nd May 2009, 05:37 #14 (permalink )

9@932/pp


G/ote

Io/ mechanics m/st sometimes think pilots are a little thick

0t seems to !ork both !as. Mechanics think of pilots as verlimited in their capacit, and pilots tend to see mechanics as thelo!er class. 9adl, !here 0 fall into both categories, 0 fill a speciallo!er?tier role beneath either part in !hich 0 can !alk b/t notche! g/m at the same time, can recogniBe a t!elve?point sockett!o o/t of three times, b/t not on the same da !hen ta8ed !ith

fling a localiBer.

2nd May 2009, 09:55 #15 (permalink )

glad rag

\;\ div]

'oin ate /g #$$-

+ocation dont forget ladisappearancesosts *15

;rilliant and tho/ght provoking post 9@932/pp.

G/ote

Most pilots !o/ld be rather shocked, 0 imagine, to find o/t

8/19/2019 15may10 v4

46/80

>es/lt@O pilot ever again for!ard slipped the airplane.

4th May 2009, 17:37 #17 (permalink )

/gilistic nim/s

'oin ate ec #$$*+ocation :he @o :rangression Uoneosts 1,1-"

,uo#e:

Clive *a#so!6 /7S cer#i+ies transport aircrafthe kno!s all abo/t that st/ff

'T: 0 meant certificated,... 0m Certified ,...bt!

Io/ O9 and 2F had me spilling m coffee in the

Obstacle :hread the best

0m

8/19/2019 15may10 v4

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e8tend into :MNF+6N !ith an increased tempenvelope. Io/ can ass/me a temp hotter than:MN, b/t o/ cant operate if the act/al temp ishotter than :ma8.

M/tt

22nd -epte&er 2008,14:46

#3 (permalink )

Flightetent

Onl half a speed?brake 'oin ate pr #$$3+ocation rag/ege 3#osts -""

: ma8 is ma8 O: for given conditions. 0t is possible to have thered/ced thr/st setting, indicated !ith : fle8, higher than this.

9etting : fle8 K *"&C, o/ are saing to the aircraftHe, no! please give me

8/19/2019 15may10 v4

48/80

F.

22nd -epte&er 2008,14:59

#5 (permalink )

0:CU

'oin ate 'an #$$1+ocation /straliaosts -1*

G/ote

takeoff thr/st m/st not be less than #" percent f/ll rated thr/st.Ho! can o/ act/all determine this

:he FCOM or FM might specif a minim/m @1 or 6> for fle8.

@1 or 6> is proportional to :hr/st.

22nd -epte&er 2008,18:08

#6 (permalink )

F6 Hopp

'oin ate 9ep 1554+ocation U/richge %1osts 4$#

6mbraer incl/de ma8 fle8 temp tables. :his is the #" red/ctionor

8/19/2019 15may10 v4

49/80

23rd -epte&er 2008,23:30

#9 (permalink )

9lick

'oin ate Mar #$$1+ocation +ondon D.Eosts -4

ont kno! if this helps (;oeing) #" Ma8 red/ction in thr/st forthe :7O thr/st rating /sed for the takeoff.

For e8ample on >anairs 4$$ there are t!o thr/st derates. :heengines are #*E and the have #%E and ##E derates lineselectable in the FMC. :he #" applies to the derate /sed. 9o##E derate !ith a #" thr/st red/ction !o/ld be a lot, mabe asm/ch as %$ of the engines rated #*E thr/st. ;/t beca/se o/are /sing ##E derate its legal. One of the man reasons forderates.

s far as kno!ing !here #" is the FMC protects for that(9miths). lso in the ;oeing performace 0nflight section G>H o/can see the ma8 temp that !o/ld generate a ma8 #" red/ction

for #*7#% and ##E takeoffs. :he FMC !ill accept a higher temp fortakeoff b/t the thr/st red/ction !ill not e8ceed #"

;est >gds

30th -epte&er 2008,06:12

#10 (permalink )

m/tt

'oin ate 9ep 1555+ocation M6

osts 3,*##

Flightetent, irb/s filed a Certification >evie! 0tem !ith'7F, the !ere iss/ed !ith a cover note permitting the /se of Fle8 to %$. 0t doesnt appl to all their aircraft nor enginecombinations, the partic/lar flight man/al !ill sho! theappropriate limits.

M/tt

30th -epte&er 2008,07:08

#11 (permalink )

Flightirector-

'oin ate '/n #$$4+ocation india

ge #5osts #5

9peedbird,

Io/ are correct that :fle8 cannot be higher b more than #" ofO:. ;asicall, the re/irements for a fle8ible take off are

1. :fle8 is ] O:#. :fle8 is ] :ref 3. :fle8 is \ or K :ma8fle8

For 3#$ onl :ref K 09L3$, :ma8 K 09L%$, :fle8 K 09L""(:ref and :fle8 !ill var accordingl for 315 and 3#1).

http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4416664&noquote=1http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4416664&noquote=1http://www.pprune.org/members/30311-slickhttp://www.pprune.org/members/8504-mutthttp://www.pprune.org/members/254529-flightdirector7http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4429486&noquote=1http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4416761&noquote=1http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4416664&noquote=1http://www.pprune.org/4416761-post9.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/344140-flex-temp-requirements.html#post4416761http://www.pprune.org/members/30311-slickhttp://www.pprune.org/4429486-post10.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/344140-flex-temp-requirements.html#post4429486http://www.pprune.org/members/8504-mutthttp://www.pprune.org/4429537-post11.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/344140-flex-temp-requirements.html#post4429537http://www.pprune.org/members/254529-flightdirector7

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9imple e8ample airfield elevation 3$$$ ft.

??] # deg C per 1$$$ ft lapse rate K 3 8 # K * degrees C??] 1" degrees standard temp at sea level K 1" ? * K 5 degreesC??] :fle8 from above K "" L 5 K *% degrees C, this means that

o/r fle8 temp for take off sho/ld not e8ceed *% degrees (#" ofrated thr/st or :ref). :his is the last ro! of fle8ible temp o/ !illsee on o/r >:OJ chart corresponding to that partic/lar :OJ.

:ma8 for the above e8ample !o/ld be K 3 8 # K * degress C

??] %$ L * K %* degrees ( at %* degrees O: o/ cannot takeoff )

0 hope this helps

Cheers

30th -epte&er 2008,10:45

#12 (permalink )

Flightetent

Onl half a speed?brake 'oin ate pr #$$3+ocation rag/ege 3#osts -""

:hank o/, M/tt.

30th -epte&er 2008,14:51

#13 (permalink )

mcdh/

'oin ate Mar #$$$+ocation 62:;ge *3osts -3*

On o/r nice ne! fleet of minib/ses, !e are /p to a :ma8 fle8 of09L*$ so a 9+ :7o at :ma8 Fle8 gives a Fle8 of -" degrees andan @1 of circa -4 (FF of app8 #8#4$$kg7hr). s the actransitions from the :7o to the Clb hase, the @1 increases (%$to #" i g/ess) to circa 4%. oetr in motion

Cheers

mcdh/

30th -epte&er 2008,18:58

#14 (permalink )

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m/tt

'oin ate 9ep 1555+ocation M6osts 3,*##

F+ightirector-, o/r follo!ing statement of G/ote

Io/ are correct that :fle8 cannot be higher b more than #"of O:.

is incorrect, please read the rest of the thread and o/ !ill see thatirb/s operate to ?%$ thr/st red/ction

G/ote

(:ref and :fle8 !ill var accordingl for 315 and 3#1)

.... Dmmmmm, are o/ s/re abo/t this

M/tt

Last edited by mutt : 60th 7eptember 2008 at 1$:60.

30th -epte&er 2008,19:18

#15 (permalink )

o!n :hree 2reens 'oin ate Ma 1555+ocation DEosts 111

M/tts correct. @e! 66Cs standards for the 33$ (:rent --#)e8tend the ma8im/m Fle8 allo!able higher than the standard#". :rent 66C 13.$L if 0 remember correctl.

4th .%ter 2008, 07:42 #16 (permalink )

Flightirector-

'oin ate '/n #$$4+ocation indiage #5osts #5

ear M/tt,

Je operate =#-#"?" 06 engines on o/r aircraft. 0 !o/ld g/essthat :ma8 fle8 !o/ld differ on CFM engines. 0 m/st sa that 0 am/na!are of the the %$ thr/st red/ction as !e onl operate!ithin the range of #", hence m previo/s post.

9econdl, im not s/re of the tpe of engine o/ g/s operate,ho!ever 0 am certain that the :ref on 315 is 09L3$ and on the3#1 is 09L1". :ma8fle8 on the 315 is 09L*" and on the 3#1 is09L%".

0m /ite s/re these !o/ld var on the man/fact/rer.

4th .%ter 2008, 12:38 #17 (permalink )

0:CU

'oin ate 'an #$$1+ocation /stralia

G/ote

Originall osted

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osts -1*b Bari#o!e rrr, not !uite,at least not a1:1 relationship.

roportionalit isnot 6/ivalence

0 sa again... @1, or6>, is proportional to

;*e# Cra!ki!";

0f 0 /nderstand correctl, !et cranking is !here f/el is introd/ced into theengine !hile is t/rning (/nder starter po!er) b/t not ignited correct

0ve heard this is /s/all for maintenance p/rposes b/t !h is it done, /nder

!hat circ/mstances

:hanksObi

15th Mar%h 2009, 19:09 #2 (permalink )

Fargoo

'oin ate Mar #$$"+ocation 6ngland

osts %5$

0ts one !a ofp/rgingpreservation fl/idsfrom an engine

thats been instorage.0f o/ !ere to gofor a normal startrather than doingthis o/ /iteoften end /p !itha hot start or evena tailpipe fire.


Obi Offiah

'oin ate '/l #$$*+ocation +ondonosts *%

:hanks Fargoo

0s this action /s/all performed b the pilots or the maintenancepersonnel, i.e !o/ld an installed engine ever be !et cranked

8/19/2019 15may10 v4

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:D>0@

'oin ate Feb #$$#+ocation /kosts 54%

+eak checking of components do!nstream of the + cock

On the other hand irb/s have an oddball sstem !here theengine sho/ld not be cranked /nless the components are !et 06l/bricated.Io/ have to trip a C; to fool the engine and keep the H valveclosed. so !et cranking still remains dr if o/ kno! !hat 0

mean.


Fargoo

'oin ate Mar #$$"+ocation 6nglandosts %5$

G/ote

:hanks Fargoo

0s this action /s/all performed b the pilots or themaintenance personnel, i.e !o/ld an installed engine ever be!et cranked

8/19/2019 15may10 v4

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osts %%- f/el filter drain and t/rning on the boost p/mps.Jet cranking is /sed !hen a ne! engine is installed.>> call it an oil circ/lation and f/el drain test. Io/ !et crank theengine /ntil f/el comes o/t the 0@

'oin ate Feb #$$#+ocation /kosts 54%

G/ote

:o do a leak check on f/el components, o/ spra chalk d/st onthem, and r/n the engine at high po!er. :hen open it /p andcheck. Io/ m/st /se high press/re f/el, the f/el press/re atcranking speed is not eno/gh.0 cant think of an reason to do it at other times than a ne!installation.

epends on the siBe of the leak.

Had e8perience of discovering a significant f/el leak from a 265$

FMD (or is it FCD HMD 0 forget ) d/ring a !et ccle. Mark 1eeball !as good eno/gh at cranking speed. >/nning an engine at

high po!er is not al!as an option d/ring a #hr t/rnro/nd.


Obi Offiah

'oin ate '/l #$$*+ocation +ondonosts *%

:hanks for the responses everone.0d been tring to get some information abo/t !et cranking forsometime and 2oogle searches !erent ver helpf/l. 0 g/ess its/ite esoteric beca/se its largel a maintenance process. On theother hand theres alot of info abo/t dr cranking, b/t this is7can

be part of the nat/ral starting process of an engine to 0 thats/nderstandable.

:hanksObi


http://www.pprune.org/4794164-post8.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/366112-wet-cranking.html#post4794164http://www.pprune.org/members/46562-turinhttp://www.pprune.org/4795652-post9.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/4795652-post9.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/366112-wet-cranking.html#post4795652http://www.pprune.org/members/146996-obi-offiahhttp://www.pprune.org/4796025-post10.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/4796025-post10.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/366112-wet-cranking.html#post4796025http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4795652&noquote=1http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4794164&noquote=1http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4792614&noquote=1http://www.pprune.org/4794164-post8.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/366112-wet-cranking.html#post4794164http://www.pprune.org/members/46562-turinhttp://www.pprune.org/4795652-post9.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/366112-wet-cranking.html#post4795652http://www.pprune.org/members/146996-obi-offiahhttp://www.pprune.org/4796025-post10.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/366112-wet-cranking.html#post4796025

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gro/ndfloor

'oin ate @ov #$$-+ocation Dp frontosts 13$

0f o/ have tried a normal start and it didn_t o/ ma have hadan inadvertant !et crank. 0t is =0:+ that o/ check the f/el hasdrained o/t, sa! a longranger helicopter b/rn o/t it_s engine inspectac/lar fashion after an ignitor bo8 fail/re !as fi8ed

23rd Mar%h 2009, 23:21 #11 (permalink )

ero:ech

'oin ate '/n #$$"+ocation D9osts 113

Hi,

:/rin (post %), 0f 0 am not mistaken ;oeing maintenance man/alsalso state similar cranking proced/re (opening spar valve A hpsov, p/ll the C;...) for dr cranking7motoring.

9teve 9!edish, 0 am not familiar !ith >> engine b/t 0 am!ondering ho! the preservation oil can be p/rged do!nstreamthe + f/el filter

:hank o/>egards


@epotisim

'oin ate Feb #$$-+ocation o!n Dnderosts 4*

0 !o/ld s/ggest !hen 9teve refers to preservation oil he !o/ld bereferring to the f/el sstem inhibiting fl/id !hich is an oil like

s/bstance. @ot engine oil that o/ ma be thinking of.


ero:ech

'oin ate '/n #$$"+ocation D9osts 113

Hi,

@epotisim, thanks for o/r e8planation, b/t 0 !as refering topreservation oil as stated in m previo/s post.0 g/ess 0 need to e8plain m /estion since it seems not clear.

:he goal of !et cranking after ne! engine installation is to p/rgereserva#io! oil from the entire engine f/el sstem (thro/gh f/el

noBBles). 0f o/ open + f/el filter drain as mentioned b 9!edish9teve, ar# of the preservation oil !ill come o/t from the drainfilter, the rest of the preservation oil !ill sta inside other enginef/el components (do!nstream + f/el filter).

s 0 said before 0 am not familiar !ith >> engines b/t 0 ass/meits engine f/el sstem is not completel different than othersstems (26 or J...)

http://www.pprune.org/members/203304-groundfloorhttp://www.pprune.org/4809717-post11.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/4809717-post11.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/366112-wet-cranking.html#post4809717http://www.pprune.org/members/114083-aerotechhttp://www.pprune.org/4810689-post12.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/4810689-post12.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/366112-wet-cranking.html#post4810689http://www.pprune.org/members/165834-nepotisimhttp://www.pprune.org/4811513-post13.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/4811513-post13.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/366112-wet-cranking.html#post4811513http://www.pprune.org/members/114083-aerotechhttp://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4810689&noquote=1http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4809717&noquote=1http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4796025&noquote=1http://www.pprune.org/members/203304-groundfloorhttp://www.pprune.org/4809717-post11.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/366112-wet-cranking.html#post4809717http://www.pprune.org/members/114083-aerotechhttp://www.pprune.org/4810689-post12.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/366112-wet-cranking.html#post4810689http://www.pprune.org/members/165834-nepotisimhttp://www.pprune.org/4811513-post13.htmlhttp://www.pprune.org/tech-log/366112-wet-cranking.html#post4811513http://www.pprune.org/members/114083-aerotech

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:hanks>egards


;eeline

'oin ate '/l #$$-+ocation DEosts %5

6ngines can also /se the f/el as a servo(m/scle) force on a lot ofcomponents driving them to the commanded position via ato//e?servo motor.

:hese components !hen replaced re/ire a leak check !itho/tthe engine r/nning so a !et?crank is performed. :hese servolines are tapped off before the main f/el sh/t?off valve. :he trickis to get the f/el to the engines !itho/t flooding the comb/storchamber as the + valve is /s/all linked in series !ith the Hvalve from the Master s!itches.

/lling a circ/it breaker as previo/sl mentioned can fail safe the

+ valve open !hilst keeping the H valve closed. :hecomponents can be leak checked or in the case of the irb/s CFMthe F6C can perform a f/ll f/nction check.

irb/s engine r/n check list has all the scenarios 0 perform on adail basis incl/ding !et and dr ccles, b/t 0 do not hold anelectronic cop of this man/al, mabe somebod co/ld help Obi!ith this


@epotisim

'oin ate Feb #$$-+ocation o!n Dnderosts 4*

OE ero:ech to ans!er o/r /estion. :he onl !a to p/rgepreservation fl/id do!nstream of the + f/el filter on a >> is to do

a !et spin and send it thro/gh the f/el noBBles.


HJE#1M

'oin ate Ma #$$1

+ocation M/mbai, 0@0osts 33$

O/t here !e call it J6: MO:O>0@2.....:he 6ngine is motored bthe 9tarter,the 0gnition C;s are p/lled o/t A f/el levers moved topermit f/el flo!.@ormall done to p/rge the preservative fl/id or

for checking f/el thro/gh the FCD.

0ts al!as follo!ed b a >I MO:O>0@2,before 6ngine start/p toavoid a HO: 9:>:.regdsM6+.

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m/d/ckace

'oin ate Mar #$$5+ocation D9

ge 3"osts %1-

Ds/all done post engine change, 0n reference to leak checkan obvio/s one !ill be discovered. lso on most

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58/80

:om.

Last edited by tom9929 : 2nd tober 2008 at 1&: .

3rd .%ter 2008, 00:13 #3 (permalink )

flingins

'oin ate @ov #$$3+ocation Casablancaosts -$

Obvio/sl al!as fl the aeroplane the !a o/r compan !antsto to. :he are paing o/r !ages, after all

Having said that, an O60 0+9 is the same as a #6O 0+9, e8cept the9traight?0n pproach O60 Checklist in the FCOM7G>H re/ireso/ to dela the selection of CO@F FD++ /ntil o/re establishedon the final approach path.

0f o/ elect to do a CO@F 3 landing, CO@F #, then 2ear o!n,then CO@F 3 !hen established on the final approach path is the

orthodo8 techni/e. :his techni/e also avoids /nneccesar +72@O: OJ@ C>C and Master Jarning.

4th .%ter 2008, 11:39 #4 (permalink )

;earcat

'oin ate '/n 155-osts **1

i detest airlines that reinvent the !heel....airb/s recommend s7eils f/ll flap....if there is an intermediate level off there is a checkre consideration of /sing flap 3.

this b/ll of selecting f3 then p/tting the gear do!n is /sing nonstd techni/es in a non normal enviornemnt..........is an accident

alread on the !a.

5th .%ter 2008, 14:27 #5 (permalink )

irb/sTa3#1

'oin ate 9ep #$$"+ocation F+34$osts 1*"

!ell said, bearcat.

15may10 v4

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