Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruThe National Assembly for Wales

Cofnod y Trafodion The Record of Proceedings

Dydd Mawrth, 24 Chwefror 2009Tuesday, 24 February 2009

24/02/2009

CynnwysContents

3Cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog

Questions to the First Minister

33 Datganiad a Chyhoeddiad BusnesBusiness Statement and Announcement

40 Datganiad am y Grŵp Gorchwyl ar yr Iaith Gymraeg ym Maes Iechyd a Gwasanaethau CymdeithasolStatement on the Welsh Language in Health and Social Services Task Group

54 Datganiad am Bythefnos Masnach Deg~Statement on Fairtrade Fortnight

65 Datganiad am Gnydau GMStatement on GM Crops

79 Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order

80 Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Awdurdodau Lleol (Ffioedd Chwiliadau Eiddo) (Cymru) 2009Approval of the Local Authorities (Wales) (Charges for Property Searches) Regulations 2009

85 Adroddiad Blynyddol Cynllun y Sector GwirfoddolThe Voluntary Sector Scheme Annual Report

101 Cyfnod PleidleisioVoting Time

Yn y golofn chwith, cofnodwyd y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y Siambr.Yn y golofn dde, cynhwyswyd cyfieithiad o’r areithiau hynny.

In the left-hand column, the proceedings are recorded in the language in which they were spoken in the Chamber. In the right-hand column, a translation of those speeches has been

included.

2

24/02/2009

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 1.30 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd (Dafydd Elis-Thomas) yn y Gadair.The Assembly met at 1.30 p.m. with the Presiding Officer (Dafydd Elis-Thomas) in the Chair.

Y Llywydd: Galwaf y Cynulliad i drefn. The Presiding Officer: I call the Assembly to order.

Cwestiynau i’r Prif WeinidogQuestions to the First Minister

Availability of Allotments Argaeledd Rhandiroedd

Q1 Mohammad Asghar: Will the First Minister make a statement on the availability of allotments in South Wales East? OAQ(3)1727(FM)

C1 Mohammad Asghar: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am argaeledd rhandiroedd yn Nwyrain De Cymru? OAQ(3)1727(FM)

The First Minister (Rhodri Morgan): This year marks the centenary of the start-up of the first ever piece of allotment legislation, which is the Small Holdings and Allotments Act 1908. One hundred years later, some local authorities have long waiting lists for allotments, and they need to give serious consideration to providing more land for this excellent purpose.

Y Prif Weinidog (Rhodri Morgan): Gan mlynedd yn ôl i eleni y daeth y darn cyntaf erioed o ddeddfwriaeth rhandiroedd i rym, sef Deddf Tyddynnod a Rhandiroedd 1908. Gan mlynedd yn ddiweddarach, mae gan rai awdurdodau lleol restri aros hirfaith am randiroedd, ac mae angen iddynt ystyried o ddifrif darparu mwy o dir at y diben ardderchog hwn.

Mohammad Asghar: Allotments are likely to become more popular as people realise the value of fresh food. I am pleased to hear about a National Trust initiative to provide land for this purpose. My colleague Leanne Wood carried out a survey of Welsh councils and found waiting lists for allotments with waits of up to nine years. I have been contacted by villagers from Shirenewton in Monmouthshire who are campaigning for land once used as allotments to be reinstated and not sold off by the council. Will the First Minister, as a keen supporter of a local farmers’ market, remind Monmouthshire council about its duty to provide enough allotments for the people who want them?

Mohammad Asghar: Mae rhandiroedd yn debygol o ddod yn fwy poblogaidd wrth i bobl sylweddoli ar werth bwyd ffres. Yr wyf yn falch o glywed am gynllun gan yr Ymddiriedolaeth Genedlaethol i ddarparu tir at y diben hwn. Cynhaliodd fy nghyd-Aelod, Leanne Wood, arolwg o gynghorau Cymru a chanfu restri aros am randiroedd lle’r oedd yn rhaid aros hyd at naw mlynedd. Mae trigolion pentref Drenewydd Gelli-farch  yn sir Fynwy wedi cysylltu â mi. Maent yn ymgyrchu dros adfer tir a arferai gael ei ddefnyddio ar gyfer rhandiroedd yn hytrach na’i fod yn cael ei werthu gan y cyngor. A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog, sy’n un o gefnogwyr brwd marchnad ffermwyr leol, atgoffa Cyngor Sir Fynwy am ei ddyletswydd i ddarparu digon o randiroedd i’r bobl sy’n dymuno’u cael?

The First Minister: I do not think that I should comment in detail on the Shirenewton issue. I indeed support farmers’ markets and participate in the enjoyable practice of growing my own food on an allotment. Where local authorities have long waiting lists, such as the one that you mentioned, with waits of nine years here or three years

Y Prif Weinidog: Ni chredaf y dylwn roi sylwadau manwl ar fater Drenewydd Gelli-farch. Yn wir, yr wyf yn cefnogi marchnadoedd ffermwyr ac yn mwynhau mynd ati i dyfu fy mwyd fy hun mewn rhandir. Pan fo gan awdurdodau lleol restri aros hir, megis honno y soniasoch amdani, gyda phobl yn aros naw mlynedd yn y fan

3

24/02/2009

there, I am sure that everyone would agree that that is far too long and that authorities should be encouraging a practice that is good for people’s health in terms of the benefits of the physical activity of digging and the dietary benefits of fresh, possibly organic, food. People can learn from more experienced gardeners and find that it is a co-operative activity. Where there are waiting lists, local authorities should be trying to do something about them.

hon neu dair blynedd yn y fan acw, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai pawb yn cytuno bod hynny’n rhy hir o lawer ac y dylai awdurdodau lleol fod yn annog arferion sy’n gwneud lles i iechyd pobl, boed hynny yn sgil gweithgaredd corfforol megis palu neu’n sgil manteision dietegol bwyd ffres ac organig, o bosibl. Gall pobl ddysgu gan arddwyr mwy profiadol a gweld ei fod yn weithgaredd lle gellir cydweithio. Lle ceir rhestri aros, dylai awdurdodau lleol fod yn ceisio gwneud rhywbeth yn eu cylch.

William Graham: Would you join me in commending Newport City Council on taking pains to ensure that the site of all allotments in the city are listed on its website and ensure that people who want an allotment or want advice on the subject can find that easily?

William Graham: A ymunech â mi i gymeradwyo Cyngor Dinas Casnewydd am gymryd camau i sicrhau bod lleoliadau holl randiroedd y ddinas wedi’u rhestru ar ei wefan ac i sicrhau bod pobl sy’n dymuno cael rhandir neu’n dymuno cael cyngor ar y pwnc yn gallu dod o hyd i hynny’n hwylus?

The First Minister: I think that that is right. I do not say that every local authority in Wales has a waiting list, as only some have responded. Twenty years ago, allotments were seen as a bit old-fashioned, and people wanted to turn them into leisure gardens. All of a sudden, at the same time as the interest in organic food started to increase, people wanted to go back to this practice, which had its heyday just after the second world war, with the original purpose of growing their own fruit and vegetables. Some local authorities have a good record. However, we want to collect information from those local authorities where it is claimed that they are not responding to the recent increase in interest, and which they should be trying to encourage.

Y Prif Weinidog: Credaf fod hynny’n iawn. Nid wyf yn dweud bod gan bob awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru restr aros, oherwydd dim ond rhai sydd wedi ymateb. Ugain mlynedd yn ôl, tueddid i edrych ar randiroedd fel pethau hen ffasiwn braidd, ac yr oedd pobl am eu troi’n erddi hamdden. Mwyaf sydyn, yr un pryd ag y dechreuodd y diddordeb mewn bwyd organig gynyddu, yr oedd pobl am ddychwelyd at yr arfer hwn, a oedd yn ei anterth yn y cyfnod yn syth ar ôl yr ail ryfel byd, gyda’r pwrpas gwreiddiol o dyfu eu ffrwythau a’u llysiau eu hunain. Mae gan rai awdurdodau lleol hanes da. Fodd bynnag, mae arnom eisiau casglu gwybodaeth gan yr awdurdodau lleol hynny lle honnir nad ydynt yn ymateb i’r cynnydd diweddar mewn diddordeb—diddordeb y dylent fod yn ceisio’i annog.

Sandy Mewies: I think that this must be happening all over Wales because, in Delyn, there are queues of people who want to take over allotments, but either the land or cash is not available. Will you and your Cabinet colleagues consider whether there are any ways in which you can help in this matter, perhaps by releasing small pockets of land in Assembly Government ownership, or by encouraging local authorities to realise that this is a sustainable pillar for everyday living?

Sandy Mewies: Yr wyf yn meddwl ei bod yn rhaid bod hyn yn digwydd ledled Cymru oherwydd, yn Delyn, ceir rhesi o bobl sy’n dymuno cael rhandir, ond bod naill ai’r tir neu’r arian ddim ar gael. A wnewch chi a’ch cyd-Aelodau ar y Cabinet ystyried a oes unrhyw ffyrdd y gallwch gynorthwyo â’r mater hwn, drwy ryddhau pocedi bychan o dir dan berchnogaeth Llywodraeth y Cynulliad efallai, neu drwy annog awdurdodau lleol i sylweddoli bod hyn yn biler cynaliadwy ar gyfer byw o ddydd i ddydd?

4

24/02/2009

The First Minister: It is simply a matter of having the initiative to catch up with the change in public taste over the past 10 years. People want fresher food, therefore they want to see allotment land retained for allotment purposes, or replaced by better allotments if, for whatever reason, a patch of allotment land has been earmarked for housing. Using the land for another purpose is fine, so long as you replace that land, show a bit of initiative and respond to public taste—in every sense of the word—in this area.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mater ydyw o gael y symbyliad i gyd-fynd â’r newid yn chwaeth y cyhoedd dros y 10 mlynedd diwethaf. Mae ar bobl eisiau bwyd sy'n fwy ffres, felly mae arnynt eisiau gweld rhandiroedd yn cael eu cadw at ddibenion rhandiroedd, neu'n cael eu disodli gan well rhandiroedd os, am ba reswm bynnag, yw rhan o randir wedi’i glustnodi ar gyfer tai. Mae defnyddio’r tir at ddiben arall yn iawn, ar yr amod eich bod yn cael tir newydd yn ei le, yn dangos ychydig o fentergarwch ac yn ymateb i’r hyn sydd at ddant pobl—ym mhob ystyr o’r gair—yn y maes hwn.

Businesses in North Wales Busnesau yn y Gogledd

Q2 Brynle Williams: What are the Welsh Assembly Government’s plans to assist businesses in north Wales? OAQ(3)1704(FM)

C2 Brynle Williams: Pa gynlluniau sydd gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i gynorthwyo busnesau yn y gogledd? OAQ(3)1704(FM)

The First Minister: Businesses in north Wales will benefit directly from the Assembly Government’s success in using the windfall gain from the rise in the value of the euro and drop in sterling. Some 50 projects based in north Wales have already been identified out of the 215 projects that are getting £128 million of this additional windfall funding.

Y Prif Weinidog: Bydd busnesau yn y gogledd yn elwa'n uniongyrchol o lwyddiant Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wrth ddefnyddio'r budd annisgwyl o'r cynnydd yng ngwerth yr ewro a'r gostyngiad yn y bunt. O’r 215 o brosiectau sy’n cael £128 miliwn o’r arian ychwanegol annisgwyl hwn, mae oddeutu 50 o brosiectau yn y gogledd eisoes wedi’u dynodi.

Brynle Williams: As you are aware, the construction industry employs thousands of people in Wales, yet Welsh businesses are missing out in the tendering process for public projects because they are not big enough. I have been contacted by several construction companies and civil engineering companies in north Wales that are deeply concerned that not only will they not be able to tender for the largest schemes, but, as subcontractors, they will not be able to absorb the cost of the work. There is evidence of subcontractors having to wait two to three years for money in the past. Welsh firms have the skills to carry out the work, so do you not think that they deserve a fair chance to tender for these projects? Much of this has to do with the setting up of the framework contract, but it is having a serious effect on businesses in north Wales.

Brynle Williams: Fel y gwyddoch, mae’r diwydiant adeiladu’n cyflogi miloedd o bobl yng Nghymru, ond er hynny, nid yw busnesau o Gymru'n llwyddo yn y broses dendro ar gyfer prosiectau cyhoeddus gan nad ydynt yn ddigon mawr. Mae amryw o gwmnïau adeiladu a chwmnïau ym maes peirianneg sifil yng ngogledd Cymru wedi cysylltu â mi yn mynegi pryder gwirioneddol na fyddant yn gallu tendro am y cynlluniau mwyaf, ond na fyddant chwaith, fel isgontractwyr, yn gallu amsugno cost y gwaith. Ceir tystiolaeth o isgontractwyr yn gorfod aros dwy i dair blynedd am arian yn y gorffennol. Mae cwmnïau o Gymru’n meddu ar y sgiliau i wneud y gwaith, felly oni chredwch eu bod yn haeddu cyfle teg i dendro ar gyfer y prosiectau hyn? Mae a wnelo llawer o hyn â sefydlu’r contract fframwaith, ond y mae’n cael effaith ddifrifol ar fusnesau yn y gogledd.

5

24/02/2009

The First Minister: Where we have large contracts in the public sector, I do not think that anyone should believe that we do not have companies of a size to carry them out. Sometimes there will be a project that an individual company will be too small to carry out, in which case it may be able to get work as a subcontractor. You are certainly right to point to the fact that there has been a unilateral lengthening of the terms of payment from the old maximum of 30 days to sometimes as much as 90 or 100 days, which, in effect, screws the subcontractors out of the game, because you will not, these days, get the finance from the bank to cover you for the 100 days that you are waiting to get paid—previously, it would have been 30 days. We do not allow that to happen for framework contracts, but, undoubtedly, it happens elsewhere.

Y Prif Weinidog: Lle mae gennym gontractau mawr yn y sector cyhoeddus, nid wyf yn meddwl y dylai neb gredu nad oes gennym gwmnïau o faint i fynd â hwy rhagddynt. Weithiau, ceir prosiect lle byddai un cwmni unigol yn rhy fach i’w gyflawni, ac mewn achos felly efallai y bydd modd iddo gael gwaith fel isgontractwr. Yr ydych yn sicr yn gywir i dynnu sylw at y ffaith bod telerau talu ar un ochr wedi mynd yn hirach, o’r hen uchafswm o 30 diwrnod i gymaint â 90 neu 100 o ddiwrnodau weithiau. Mae hyn, mewn gwirionedd, yn atal yr isgontractwyr rhag cymryd rhan, oherwydd y dyddiau hyn, ni chewch yr arian gan eich banc i dalu am y 100 niwrnod yr ydych yn aros am dâl—yn y gorffennol, byddai wedi bod yn 30 diwrnod. Nid ydym yn caniatáu i hynny ddigwydd gyda chontractau fframwaith ond, mae'n digwydd mewn mannau eraill heb os.

Janet Ryder: The One Wales Government has offered rate relief to many small businesses, but, during a recent surgery in Brymbo, a local businessman, whose business has a rateable value of £5,000, contacted me and was surprised to hear of the relief on offer. Are you satisfied that the Welsh Assembly Government and local councils are doing enough to pass on the information to small enterprises in areas such as north Wales?

Janet Ryder: Mae Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un wedi cynnig rhyddhad ardrethi i lawer o fusnesau bach. Fodd bynnag, mewn cymhorthfa ym Mrymbo yn ddiweddar, cysylltodd gŵr busnes lleol, a oedd â busnes â gwerth ardrethol o £5,000, â mi, ac yr oedd yn syndod ganddo glywed am y rhyddhad sydd ar gael. A ydych yn fodlon bod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a chynghorau lleol yn gwneud digon i drosglwyddo’r wybodaeth i fentrau bach mewn ardaloedd megis y gogledd?

The First Minister: I hope that there is no problem in people being able to access the information that they need to be able to get the rate relief to which they may be entitled. We have two rate relief schemes and believe that they are successfully meeting need. The smaller the company, the bigger the element that rates will form in its annual costs, therefore we have tended to concentrate our rate relief on very small companies. We know that it has benefited many post offices and small shops and so on. We believe that those rate relief schemes are successful, but, as with any new scheme, it will take time before companies are aware of what they might be entitled to, and we hope that, via web-based or local-authority-based information systems, companies will ensure that they do not miss out on any rate relief for which they are eligible.

Y Prif Weinidog: Gobeithiaf nad oes dim problem o ran gallu pobl i gael mynediad i wybodaeth y mae ei hangen arnynt i allu cael y rhyddhad ardrethi y mae’n bosibl bod ganddynt hawl iddo. Mae gennym ddau gynllun rhyddhad ardrethi a chredwn eu bod yn diwallu'r angen yn llwyddiannus. Po leiaf y cwmni, y mwyaf yw'r elfen y bydd yr ardrethi'n ei ffurfio yn ei gostau blynyddol, felly yr ydym wedi tueddu i ganolbwyntio ein rhyddhad ardrethi ar gwmnïau bach iawn. Gwyddom iddo fod o fudd i lawer o swyddfeydd post a siopau bach ac ati. Credwn fod y cynlluniau rhyddhad ardrethi hynny’n llwyddiannus, ond, fel gydag unrhyw gynllun newydd, bydd yn cymryd amser cyn y bydd cwmnïau’n gwybod am yr hyn y gall fod ganddynt hawl iddo, a gobeithiwn, drwy systemau gwybodaeth ar y we neu drwy systemau gwybodaeth awdurdodau lleol, y bydd cwmnïau’n sicrhau

6

24/02/2009

nad ydynt yn colli'r cyfle i gael unrhyw ryddhad ardrethi y maent yn gymwys i’w gael.

Eleanor Burnham: There are issues around training and the flexibility of training for small companies. I was talking to a local builder last week, and he explained to me the need for short, flexible courses. He went to Stockport for a particular course, because he could not get it at the local further education college. What is the Welsh Assembly Government doing about this, particularly in view of the fact that many further education colleges—and colleges of the very best quality in the whole of Britain happen to be in my region—have had an awful lot of redundancies across the patch in the last six to eight months?

Eleanor Burnham: Ceir problemau sy’n ymwneud â hyfforddiant a hyblygrwydd hyfforddiant i gwmnïau bach. Yr wythnos diwethaf, yr oeddwn yn siarad ag adeiladwr lleol, ac eglurodd imi fod angen cyrsiau byr, hyblyg. Aeth i Stockport ar gyfer cwrs penodol, oherwydd nad oedd y cwrs ar gael yn y coleg addysg bellach lleol. Beth mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru'n ei wneud am hyn, yn enwedig a chofio bod llawer o golegau addysg bellach—ac mae colegau o'r safon uchaf un drwy Brydain i gyd yn digwydd bod yn fy rhanbarth i—wedi wynebu cryn dipyn o ddiswyddiadau ledled y dalgylch yn y chwech i wyth mis diwethaf?

The First Minister: It is both an advantage and a disadvantage for north Wales that it has some really good further education colleges, but because the population of the north-west of England, which is next door, is so much larger than the population of north Wales—it is 13 times greater—there will be specialist courses available in Bolton or Stockport that are not available in north Wales. I remember going around a bakery in Coedpoeth some years ago, and great admiration was expressed for the support that the bakery had had from Yale College and the other colleges, but it tended to have to send staff to Stockport for bakery courses. To be honest, we cannot guarantee that we can transfer every specialist course available in a region of 7 million people, as in north-west England, to north Wales, which has just over 0.5 million people.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’r ffaith y ceir colegau addysg bellach gwirioneddol dda yng ngogledd Cymru yn fantais ac yn anfantais, ond gan fod poblogaeth gogledd-orllewin Lloegr, sydd drws nesaf, gymaint yn fwy na phoblogaeth gogledd Cymru—mae’n 13 gwaith yn fwy—bydd cyrsiau arbenigol ar gael ym Bolton neu yn Stockport nad ydynt ar gael yng ngogledd Cymru. Cofiaf fynd o amgylch becws yng Nghoedpoeth rai blynyddoedd yn ôl, a mynegwyd cryn edmygedd at y cymorth yr oedd y becws wedi’i gael gan Goleg Iâl a’r colegau eraill, ond yr oedd yn tueddu i orfod anfon staff i Stockport er mwyn dilyn cyrsiau pobi. A bod yn onest, ni allwn warantu y gallwn drosglwyddo pob cwrs arbenigol sydd ar gael mewn rhanbarth o 7 miliwn o bobl, fel yng ngogledd-orllewin Lloegr, i ogledd Cymru, sydd ag ychydig dros 0.5 miliwn o bobl.

1.40 p.m.

The Economy Yr Economi

Q3 Lesley Griffiths: What is the Welsh Assembly Government doing to help to boost the Welsh economy? OAQ(3)1717(FM)

C3 Lesley Griffiths: Beth mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ei wneud i helpu i roi hwb i economi Cymru? OAQ(3)1717(FM)

The First Minister: Businesses across the Welsh economy are being boosted by the recently announced £48 million ProAct scheme, the £35 million invested in the business innovation support programme, and our £25 million Enterprise Networks

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae busnesau ym mhob rhan o economi Cymru’n cael hwb gan y cynllun ProAct a gyhoeddwyd yn ddiweddar, sy’n werth £48 miliwn, y £35 miliwn a fuddsoddwyd yn y rhaglen cefnogi arloesedd busnes, a’n prosiectau Rhwydweithiau

7

24/02/2009

projects. Information about all those measures is easily available to businesses and individuals through the Welsh Assembly Government’s website, under the heading ‘Leading Wales out of recession’.

Menter gwerth £25 miliwn. Mae’n hawdd i fusnesau ac unigolion gael gafael ar wybodaeth am yr holl fesurau hynny drwy wefan Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, dan y pennawd ‘Arwain Cymru allan o’r dirwasgiad’.

Lesley Griffiths: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. We are all aware of how banks are not servicing our small and medium-sized enterprises with the credit that they so desperately need. The European Investment Bank has increased its support for SMEs in Europe by making €30 billion available over the next three years, enabling banks to make credit more rapidly available to them. Unfortunately, only three UK financial institutions have signed up to participate in the scheme. Will you join me in encouraging businesses that have recently been declined credit to lobby their banks to sign up to the EIB scheme now, to take full advantage of what is on offer? Do you also agree that Welsh firms have a right to access that assistance, and that UK banks have a moral duty to enable them to do so?

Lesley Griffiths: Diolch ichi am yr ateb hwnnw, Brif Weinidog. Mae pob un ohonom yn ymwybodol nad yw banciau’n rhoi credyd i’n busnesau bach a chanolig—credyd y mae dirfawr ei angen arnynt. Mae Banc Buddsoddi Ewrop wedi rhoi mwy o gymorth i fusnesau bach a chanolig yn Ewrop drwy sicrhau bod €30 biliwn ar gael dros y tair blynedd nesaf. Bydd hyn yn galluogi banciau i sicrhau bod credyd ar gael iddynt yn gynt. Yn anffodus, dim ond tri sefydliad ariannol yn y DU sydd wedi cofrestru i gymryd rhan yn y cynllun. A ymunwch â mi i annog busnesau y gwrthodwyd credyd iddynt yn ddiweddar i lobio eu banciau i gofrestru ar gyfer cynllun Banc Buddsoddi Ewrop yn awr, i fanteisio'n llawn ar yr hyn a gynigir? A gytunwch hefyd bod gan gwmnïau o Gymru hawl i gael mynediad i’r cymorth hwnnw, a bod gan fanciau’r DU ddyletswydd foesol i’w galluogi i wneud hynny?

The First Minister: This is the $64 trillion question in every respect. We all know that three of the big high-street lenders—the Royal Bank of Scotland, Barclays Bank and the Bank of Scotland, which is part of HBOS—have picked up on the EIB scheme, which is partly guaranteed by Government. On the other hand, there is evidence that the money is not yet flowing out to companies, even from those three banks. They may be engaging in negotiations, but they do not have the money yet. I agree entirely that we should be commending the scheme to the other six major lenders in this country, including Lloyds TSB, HSBC, Clydesdale and Yorkshire banks and Northern Bank. They should get in on the act. However, the first step is to ensure that the three banks that are already a part of the EIB-backed scheme release some of that money, as that will put huge competitive pressure on the six major lenders that are not yet participating.

Y Prif Weinidog: Hwn yw'r cwestiwn $64 triliwn ym mhob ystyr. Gwyddom oll bod tri o’r prif fenthycwyr ar y Stryd Fawr—Royal Bank of Scotland, Banc Barclays a Bank of Scotland, sy’n rhan o HBOS—wedi sylwi ar gynllun Banc Buddsoddi Ewrop, sy’n cael ei warantu’n rhannol gan y Llywodraeth. Ar y llaw arall, ceir tystiolaeth nad yw’r arian yn llifo i’r cwmnïau eto, hyd yn oed gan y tri banc hynny. Efallai eu bod wrthi’n negodi, ond nid yw'r arian ganddynt eto. Cytunaf yn llwyr y dylem fod yn cymeradwyo'r cynllun i'r chwe phrif fenthyciwr arall yn y wlad hon, gan gynnwys Lloyds TSB, HSBC, banciau Clydesdale a Yorkshire a Northern Bank. Dylent hwythau ymuno. Fodd bynnag, y cam cyntaf yw sicrhau bod y tri banc sydd eisoes yn rhan o'r cynllun a gefnogir gan Fanc Buddsoddi Ewrop yn rhyddhau rhywfaint o’r arian hwnnw, oherwydd bydd hynny’n rhoi pwysau cystadleuol anferth ar y chwe benthyciwr mawr nad ydynt yn rhan o'r cynllun eto.

The Leader of the Opposition (Nick Bourne): Good afternoon, First Minister.

Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid (Nick Bourne): Prynhawn da, Brif Weinidog. Byddwch yn

8

24/02/2009

You will be aware of the statement made by the chief constable of South Wales Police, Barbara Wilding, on the policing of the M4. She has voiced concerns, which are echoed by many others, including the Chair of the Enterprise and Learning Committee, Gareth Jones, about the economic consequences of closing the M4. For every hour that it is closed, it has been calculated by some to cost £1 million to the Welsh economy. There is an issue with policing the M4: from 6 April, we face the possibility of police services being withdrawn in relation to minor accidents, the retrieval of debris and directing traffic. The Welsh Assembly Government has had several years in which to sort this out. Why has it not done so, and what are you doing now?

ymwybodol o’r datganiad a wnaethpwyd gan brif gwnstabl Heddlu De Cymru, Barbara Wilding, ynghylch plismona'r M4. Mae wedi mynegi pryderon, a ategir gan lawer o bobl eraill, gan gynnwys Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Menter a Dysgu, Gareth Jones, am y canlyniadau economaidd sy’n gysylltiedig â chau’r M4. Am bob awr y mae ar gau, cyfrifir gan rai bod hynny ar gost o £1 miliwn i economi Cymru. Ceir problem gyda phlismona'r M4: gan ddechrau ar 6 Ebrill, wynebwn y posibilrwydd na fydd gwasanaethau’r heddlu ar gael ar gyfer mân ddamweiniau, casglu malurion a chyfarwyddo traffig. Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi cael blynyddoedd lawer i gael trefn ar hyn. Pam nad yw wedi gwneud hynny, a beth yr ydych yn ei wneud yn awr?

The First Minister: You should not transfer the entire responsibility for ‘sorting it out’ to the Assembly Government, because there are two funding streams for the police, balanced between the Home Office and us, and the budget-setting process, in which South Wales Police is involved, is under way right now. The South Wales Police Authority will have to make up its mind about the precept increase that it wants included in the council tax this coming year. That involves a delicate negotiation, and different views were expressed at the last meeting of the police authority. It is for the authority to make those decisions, and I do not want to get involved today in anything that will upset the careful democratic process involved. It is for the different people on the police authority to make their minds up about the increase that they want for next year.

Y Prif Weinidog: Ni ddylech drosglwyddo'r holl gyfrifoldeb dros 'gael trefn’ i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, oherwydd ceir dwy ffrwd gyllido ar gyfer yr heddlu, a gydbwysir rhwng y Swyddfa Gartref a ninnau, a’r broses pennu cyllideb, y mae Heddlu De Cymru’n rhan ohoni, sydd ar droed yn awr. Bydd yn rhaid i Awdurdod Heddlu De Cymru benderfynu ar y cynnydd yn y praesept y mae am ei gynnwys yn y dreth gyngor yn y flwyddyn nesaf hon. Mae hynny’n golygu negodi’n gynnil, a mynegwyd gwahanol safbwyntiau yng nghyfarfod diwethaf awdurdod yr heddlu. Mater i’r awdurdod yw gwneud y penderfyniadau hynny, ac nid oes arnaf eisiau bod yn rhan o ddim byd a fydd yn cynhyrfu’r broses ddemocrataidd ofalus sy’n gysylltiedig. Mae angen i'r gwahanol bobl ar awdurdod yr heddlu benderfynu ar y cynnydd y mae arnynt ei eisiau ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf.

Nick Bourne: I note that you suggest that it is not just the responsibility of the Welsh Assembly Government, but Barbara Wilding laid it firmly at your door. She talked about inconsequential meetings with the Minister for Finance and Public Service Delivery and the Minister for Social Justice and Local Government over the last year, and about the failure to make any progress, despite months of meetings and countless presentations and papers. While you seem to realise that this is a serious issue that has to be addressed, is the Assembly Government looking at the fact

Nick Bourne: Nodaf eich bod yn awgrymu nad cyfrifoldeb Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n unig ydyw, ond gosododd Barbara Wilding y mater yn benodol wrth eich drws chi. Soniodd am gyfarfodydd heb fod yn ganlyniadol gyda’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid a Chyflenwi Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus a’r Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Leol dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, ac am y methiant a fu i wneud unrhyw gynnydd, er y misoedd o gyfarfodydd a’r amryfal gyflwyniadau a phapurau. Er eich bod, i bob golwg, yn

9

24/02/2009

that, in England, the Highways Agency picks up the costs of the retrieval of debris, minor accidents and directing traffic, which does not happen in Wales? Our police forces are therefore disadvantaged. What are you doing about that serious imbalance?

sylweddoli bod hwn yn bwnc difrifol y mae angen cael trefn arno, a yw Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn edrych ar y ffaith mai, yn Lloegr, yr Asiantaeth Priffyrdd sy’n talu am gostau casglu malurion, mân ddamweiniau a chyfeirio traffig, ac nad yw hynny’n digwydd yng Nghymru? Mae ein heddluoedd felly dan anfantais. Beth ydych yn ei wneud am yr anghydbwysedd difrifol hynny?

The First Minister: You will accept that, in throwing our views back and forth across the Chamber, we should be careful not to get involved in the current meetings on the police authority percentage budget increase for next year. I know that the chief constable has expressed trenchant views on the subject, and she has said how she intends to react if the force does not get an increase above a certain level.

Y Prif Weinidog: Byddwch yn derbyn, wrth daflu ein safbwyntiau yn ôl ac ymlaen ar draws y Siambr, y dylem ochel rhag dylanwadu ar y cyfarfodydd presennol ynghylch canran cynnydd cyllideb yr awdurdod heddlu ar gyfer y flwyddyn newydd. Yr wyf yn gwybod i’r prif gwnstabl fynegi safbwyntiau miniog am y pwnc, ac mae wedi dweud sut y mae’n bwriadu ymateb os na chaiff yr heddlu gynnydd sy’n uwch na lefel benodol.

You talked about the Highways Agency being responsible for the motorway network in England and asked why the situation in Wales is not similar. We all know the reason: the motorway network is so much smaller in Wales. English motorways probably amount to almost 1,000 miles of road and so it is worth having dedicated traffic police, but it would make no sense whatsoever to have a separate highways agency set up for the 60 miles or so of motorway that we have in Wales. It is wrong to suggest that the entire burden of policing the motorways has been lifted from police forces in England while the burden in Wales all falls on the adjoining Gwent Police and South Wales Police forces—and I do not think that Dyfed-Powys Police is affected—with no adjustment in the budgets. You could argue over whether the adjustment in Wales is sufficient, given the comparability factors with the English police authorities, but that would be about the detail of the split between highways authorities’ and police forces’ budgets in England.

Yr oeddech yn siarad am yr Asiantaeth Priffyrdd yn bod yn gyfrifol am y rhwydwaith traffyrdd yn Lloegr a gofynasoch pam nad yw’r sefyllfa’n debyg yng Nghymru. Yr ydym i gyd yn gwybod y rheswm: mae’r rhwydwaith traffyrdd cymaint yn llai yng Nghymru. Mae’n debyg bod traffyrdd Lloegr bron yn 1,000 o filltiroedd o ffyrdd ac felly mae’n werth cael heddlu traffig penodol, ond ni fyddai’n gwneud dim synnwyr o gwbl sefydlu asiantaeth priffyrdd ar wahân ar gyfer oddeutu 60 milltir o draffordd sydd gennym yng Nghymru. Mae’n anghywir awgrymu bod holl faich plismona’r traffyrdd wedi cael ei godi oddi ar heddluoedd yn Lloegr a bod y baich yng Nghymru i gyd yn disgyn ar Heddlu Gwent a Heddlu De Cymru—ac nid wyf yn meddwl yr effeithir ar Heddlu Dyfed-Powys—heb ddim addasiad yn y cyllidebau. Gallech ddadlau a yw’r addasiad yng Nghymru’n ddigon, ac ystyried y ffactorau y mae modd eu cymharu ag awdurdodau heddlu yn Lloegr, ond byddai hynny’n ymwneud â manylion y rhaniad rhwng cyllideb yr awdurdodau priffyrdd a’r heddluoedd yn Lloegr.

Nick Bourne: This is a fundamental issue, and I make no apology for continuing to press the point. You say that discussions are continuing, and they may be sensitive, but they should have been under way for the past

Nick Bourne: Mae hwn yn fater sylfaenol, ac nid wyf yn ymddiheuro am barhau i wneud y pwynt. Dywedwch fod trafodaethau’n parhau, ac efallai eu bod yn sensitif, ond dylent fod wedi bod yn mynd rhagddynt dros

10

24/02/2009

two years. The point remains—and this should be aired in the National Assembly for Wales—that Welsh police forces are being disadvantaged by the funding situation vis-à-vis England, and that is not helping the Welsh public. According to Barbara Wilding, we are facing cuts in police numbers. The South Wales Police force has seen a reduction of 186 officers this year, and faces a further 125 cuts next year if something is not done. That would take us down to the level of police numbers in 1974 when Harold Wilson was in Downing street. That is a serious prospect, so I continue to press you, First Minister. I do not want the details of the negotiations; I want you to say that this is an issue that should have been addressed but you are addressing it now, and I want you to give us a rough guideline as to how you are addressing it.

y ddwy flynedd diwethaf. Erys y pwynt—a dylid datgan hyn yng Nghynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru—mae heddluoedd Cymru dan anfantais oherwydd y sefyllfa cyllido o’i chymharu â Lloegr, ac nid yw hynny’n helpu’r cyhoedd yng Nghymru. Yn ôl Barbara Wilding, yr ydym yn wynebu toriadau o ran niferoedd swyddogion heddlu. Mae Heddlu De Cymru wedi gweld gostyngiad o 186 o swyddogion eleni, ac yn wynebu colli 125 arall y flwyddyn nesaf os na chaiff dim ei wneud. Byddai hynny’n mynd â ni i lefel niferoedd swyddogion heddlu 1974 pan oedd Harold Wilson yn Downing street. Mae hynny’n ddifrifol, felly yr wyf yn parhau i bwyso arnoch, Brif Weinidog. Nid oes arnaf eisiau manylion y trafodaethau; mae arnaf eisiau ichi ddweud bod hwn yn fater y dylid bod wedi delio ag ef ond yr ydych yn delio ag ef yn awr, ac mae arnaf eisiau ichi roi canllaw bras inni o sut yr ydych yn delio ag ef.

The First Minister: The problem is this: in the run-up to a budget-setting meeting, the chief constable put a point of view to the South Wales Police Authority. That was not accepted at the first meeting, and you will all have read about that in the newspapers. The budget meeting was therefore deferred for another couple of weeks. In the meantime, a view was expressed by the chief constable, but she is not the budget-setting body; that is the South Wales Police Authority. Our responsibilities in relation to the possible capping of that authority have also been expressed by the Minister for social justice. At a time when it is about to have another go at setting the budget for the South Wales Police Authority, I am not anxious to express a view here that could bias those negotiations. It is for the South Wales Police Authority to decide whether it accepts all or part of the case that has been made by the chief constable.

Y Prif Weinidog: Dyma’r broblem: yn y cyfnod cyn cyfarfod gosod cyllideb, cyflwynodd y prif gwnstabl farn gerbron Awdurdod Heddlu De Cymru. Ni chafodd hwnnw mo’i dderbyn yn y cyfarfod cyntaf, a byddwch i gyd wedi darllen am hynny yn y papurau newydd. Yr oedd y cyfarfod ynghylch y gyllideb felly wedi cael ei ohirio am ychydig o wythnosau. Yn y cyfamser, mynegwyd safbwynt gan y prif gwnstabl, ond nid hi yw’r corff sy’n gosod y gyllideb; Awdurdod Heddlu De Cymru yw hwnnw. Mae’r Gweinidog dros gyfiawnder cymdeithasol hefyd wedi mynegi ein cyfrifioldebau yng nghyswllt posibilrwydd rhoi cap ar yr awdurdod hwnnw. Ac yntau ar fin rhoi cynnig arall ar osod y gyllideb ar gyfer Awdurdod Heddlu De Cymru, nid wyf yn awyddus i fynegi barn yma a allai ogwyddo’r trafodaethau hynny. Awdurdod Heddlu De Cymru sydd i benderfynu a yw’n derbyn achos y prif gwnstabl yn ei gyfanrwydd neu’n rhannol.

Irene James: Do you agree that a high-quality transport infrastructure is the key to boosting the Welsh economy? As you will be aware, I have been campaigning for some time for the opening of the Newport spur of the Ebbw valley rail line. I recently asked the Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport for a firm date on

Irene James: A ydych yn cytuno bod seilwaith trafnidiaeth o ansawdd uchel yn allweddol er mwyn rhoi hwb i economi Cymru? Fel y gwyddoch, yr wyf wedi bod yn ymgyrchu ers tro byd dros agor cainc Casnewydd rheilffordd Glyn Ebwy. Gofynnais yn ddiweddar i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros yr Economi a

11

24/02/2009

when that spur will open. He answered by referring me to the Wales transport plan. I took another look at that document and was not surprised to see that, as on my first reading, there was no firm date. Can you give me a clearer date for when that spur might open?

Thrafnidiaeth am ddyddiad cadarn ynghylch pryd bydd y gainc honno’n agor. Atebodd drwy fy nghyfeirio at gynllun trafnidiaeth Cymru. Edrychais ar y ddogfen honno drachefn ac nid oedd yn syndod imi nad oedd dyddiad pendant, fel yr oeddwn wedi’i ganfod wrth ddarllen y ddogfen y tro cyntaf. A allwch roi dyddiad cliriach imi ynghylch pryd y gallai’r gainc honno agor?

1.50 p.m.

The First Minister: My understanding is that there are three major steps that we would all like to see happen, but the timing is as yet uncertain. The one thing that is certain is the rebuilding of Newport station. That £19 million contract has been let. I am not sure whether work has started yet, but it is a major contract that will massively improve the gateway to Wales via Newport and the Gwent valleys in which you have an interest. The next stage is the Newport spur, which depends on the completion of the work to renew the signalling between Newport and Port Talbot, which represents a huge investment by Network Rail of some £400 million—the largest ever investment in the railway system in Wales. When that has been completed, it becomes possible to start designing the complicated crossover at Gaer and Maesglas to take trains from Newport up to the Gwent valleys to link with the Ebbw valley railway. The third stage is to get the link at the top end, from Ebbw Vale Parkway station towards the centre of Ebbw Vale. I will ask the Deputy First Minister to write to you about the timing of those stages.

Y Prif Weinidog: Caf ar ddeall yr hoffem i gyd weld tri cham mawr yn cael eu cymryd, ond mae’r amseru’n ansicr ar hyn o bryd. Yr un peth sydd yn sicr yw ailadeiladu gorsaf Casnewydd. Mae’r contract £19 miliwn hwnnw wedi cael ei roi. Nid wyf yn siŵr a yw’r gwaith wedi dechrau eto, ond mae’n gontract mawr a fydd yn gwella’r porth i Gymru drwy Gasnewydd a chymoedd Gwent yn fawr iawn, sef ardal sydd o ddiddordeb ichi. Y cam nesaf yw cainc Casnewydd, sy’n dibynnu ar gwblhau’r gwaith i adnewyddu’r signalau rhwng Casnewydd a Phort Talbot, sy’n cynrychioli buddsoddiad enfawr gan Network Rail gwerth oddeutu £400 miliwn—y buddsoddiad mwyaf erioed yn y system rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru. Pan fydd hwnnw wedi’i gwblhau, bydd yn bosibl dechrau dylunio’r man croesi cymhleth yn Gaer a Maesglas i fynd â threnau o Gasnewydd i fyny i gymoedd Gwent er mwyn cysylltu â rheilffordd Glyn Ebwy. Y trydydd cam yw cael y cyswllt yn y pen uchaf, o orsaf Parkway Glynebwy tuag at ganol Glynebwy. Gofynnaf i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog ysgrifennu atoch am amseriad y camau hynny.

The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats (Kirsty Williams): First Minister, Welsh companies continue to struggle during these difficult economic times. Having new orders and work to do would enable them to keep workers on their books. You have announced a number of capital investment programmes to help Welsh businesses to build their way out of this recession, yet there remains concern that the practice of bundling and issuing framework contracts works against those Welsh companies, preventing them from bidding for those contracts. Last month, you stated that unbundling had stopped in September, but,

Arweinydd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru (Kirsty Williams): Brif Weinidog, mae cwmnïau Cymru’n parhau i’w chael hi’n anodd ymdopi yn ystod y cyfnod economaidd anodd hwn. Byddai cael archebion newydd a gwaith i’w gyflawni yn eu galluogi i gadw gweithwyr ar eu llyfrau. Yr ydych wedi cyhoeddi nifer o raglenni buddsoddiad cyfalaf i helpu busnesau yng Nghymru i adeiladu eu ffordd allan o’r dirwasgiad hwn, fodd bynnag, ceir pryder o hyd bod yr arfer o fwndelu a chyhoeddi contractau fframwaith yn gweithio yn erbyn y cwmnïau Cymreig hynny, gan eu hatal rhag rhoi cynnig am y contractau hynny. Fis diwethaf, dywedasoch

12

24/02/2009

earlier this month, Andrew Davies, Minister for finance, said that stopping unbundling was not the way forward as that presented a risk to good value for money. Could you please clarify your Government’s position on bundling and framework contracts? What are you doing to make it easier for Welsh businesses to build Welsh homes, Welsh schools and Welsh hospitals?

fod dadfwndelu wedi dod i ben ym mis Medi, ond, yn gynharach y mis yma, dywedodd Andrew Davies, y Gweinidog dros gyllid, nad rhoi’r gorau i ddadfwndelu oedd y ffordd ymlaen gan fod hynny’n rhoi gwerth da am arian yn y fantol. A allech egluro safbwynt eich Llywodraeth am fwndelu a chontractau fframwaith? Beth ydych yn ei wneud i’w gwneud yn haws i fusnesau Cymru adeiladau cartrefi, ysgolion ac ysbytai yng Nghymru?

The First Minister: It will vary from sector to sector. In the health sector, the proposal to achieve all the benefits through the ‘Designed for Life: Building for Wales’ framework contract will continue as before. Therefore, smaller companies will not expect to be able to gain access to unbundled contracts, but they may be able to get access to subcontracts much more than would have been the case previously. For other contracts, we are looking at the potential for unbundling to see the extent to which that could benefit small and medium-sized construction firms in Wales. That is to ensure that they are not taken out of the sports by not being able even to bid, let alone win the bid.

Y Prif Weinidog: Bydd yn amrywio o un sector i’r llall. Yn y sector iechyd, bydd y cynnig i gyflawni’r holl fudd drwy’r contract fframwaith ‘Cynllun Oes: Adeiladu ar gyfer Cymru’ yn parhau fel ag o’r blaen. Felly, ni fydd cwmnïau llai yn disgwyl gallu cael gafael ar gontractau wedi’u dadfwndelu, ond efallai y bydd yn haws o lawer iddynt gael gafael ar is-gontractau nag o’r blaen. Ar gyfer contractau eraill, yr ydym yn edrych ar botensial dadfwndelu i weld i ba raddau y gallai hynny fod o fudd i gwmnïau adeiladu bach a chanolig eu maint yng Nghymru. Hynny yw er mwyn sicrhau na chânt eu rhwystro rhag rhoi cynnig am fid, heb sôn am ennill y bid.

Kirsty Williams: Could you clarify how you intend to monitor that process for contracts outside the NHS, please? On the NHS, do you think that it is a reasonable practice for Welsh companies to lose out to multinational companies who gain those contracts, take their cut of the money, and then subcontract the work to the very Welsh businesses that were unable to bid in the first place? They get their cut, Welsh taxpayers line those companies’ pockets, and Welsh workers, if they are lucky, get to provide the labour. Do you feel that that is a satisfactory way forward for the Welsh economy?

Kirsty Williams: A allech egluro sut yr ydych yn bwriadu monitro’r broses honno ar gyfer contractau y tu allan i’r GIG os gwelwch yn dda? Gyda’r GIG, a ydych yn meddwl ei bod yn arfer rhesymol bod cwmnïau yng Nghymru’n colli cyfleoedd i gwmnïau rhyngwladol sy’n ennill y contractau hynny, yn cymryd eu cyfran o’r arian, ac wedyn yn is-gontractio’r gwaith i’r union fusnesau hynny yng Nghymru nad oeddent yn gallu cyflwyno bid yn y lle cyntaf? Maent yn cael eu cyfran, mae trethdalwyr Cymru’n rhoi arian ym mhocedi’r cwmnïau hynny, ac mae gweithwyr yng Nghymru, os ydynt yn ffodus, yn cael darparu’r llafur. A ydych yn teimlo bod hon yn ffordd foddhaol ymlaen ar gyfer economi Cymru?

The First Minister: You said that they provide the labour, but that is normally what happens in a construction contract. Therefore, I am unsure of the nature of your criticism. I recently visited the site of the £175 million-worth Ystrad Mynach hospital, which is probably the biggest building site in Wales at the moment. It is true that a Dutch company

Y Prif Weinidog: Dywedasoch eu bod yn darparu’r llafur, ond dyna’r hyn sy’n digwydd fel rheol mewn contract adeiladu. Felly, nid wyf yn sicr o natur eich beirniadaeth. Yn ddiweddar bûm yn ymweld â safle ysbyty Ystrad Mynach sydd werth £175 miliwn, sef y safle adeiladu mwyaf yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd, mae’n debyg. Mae’n

13

24/02/2009

has the contract—BAM Construct UK Ltd—but there is a huge variety of Welsh subcontractors working there at different levels. The labour on a construction contract represents the guts of the contract. I understand that a number of Welsh companies will benefit from that. If a company in Wales has developed into a large multinational that can build large hospitals, that is fine. They should bid and they should get the contract. However, we have to be assured that we can build not only one hospital, but a series of hospitals, so we want a good partnership with companies that have experience of building hospitals. There is no disadvantage, then, to Welsh companies in being able to access subcontracts provided that there is no breach of the theory that they will have to wait 90 or 100 days for their money, as I said earlier to Brynle Williams.

wir mai cwmni o’r Iseldiroedd sydd â’r contract—BAM Construct UK Cyf—ond ceir amrywiaeth enfawr o isgontractwyr o Gymru’n gweithio yno ar lefelau gwahanol. Mae’r llafur ar gontract adeiladu yn cynrychioli calon y contract. Caf ar ddeall y bydd nifer o gwmnïau o Gymru yn elwa o hynny. Os yw cwmni yng Nghymru wedi datblygu’n gwmni rhyngwladol mawr sy’n gallu adeiladu ysbytai mawr, mae hynny’n iawn. Dylent gyflwyno bid a dylent ennill y contract. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni fod yn sicr y gallwn adeiladu nid yn unig un ysbyty, ond cyfres o ysbytai, felly mae arnom eisiau cael partneriaeth dda gyda chwmnïau sydd â phrofiad o adeiladu ysbytai. Nid oes anfantais, felly, i gwmnïau o Gymru o ran gallu cael gafael ar is-gontractau ar yr amod nad oes torri’r theori y bydd yn rhaid iddynt aros 90 neu 100 diwrnod am eu harian, fel y dywedais yn gynharach wrth Brynle Williams.

Kirsty Williams: First Minister, it seems as though Welsh building companies that have been building public buildings in our nation for many decades are now to be relegated to the position of subcontractors. Surely you can understand how that may be difficult for some companies to understand. The matter is not helped when your Minister for finance says that these criticisms of the process are little more than whingeing by companies that were not good enough to win the contracts in the first place. Is this the business-friendly face that you want your Government to present?

Kirsty Williams: Brif Weinidog, ymddengys bod cwmnïau adeiladu yng Nghymru sydd wedi bod yn codi adeiladau cyhoeddus ein cenedl am ddegawdau bellach wedi cael eu diarddel i safle isgontractwyr. Siawns y gallwch ddeall pam y gall hynny fod yn anodd i rai cwmnïau ei ddeall. Caiff y mater ei waethygu pan ddywed eich Gweinidog dros gyllid bod y beirniadaethau hyn o’r broses yn ddim ond swnian gan y cwmnïau hynny nad oeddent yn ddigon da i ennill y contractau yn y lle cyntaf. Ai dyma’r wyneb cyfeillgar i fusnesau y mae arnoch eisiau i’ch Llywodraeth ei gyflwyno?

The First Minister: I am trying to think of a time over the past 40 or 50 years when I have driven past a building site in Wales at which a major new hospital was under construction, and when a Welsh-based building company was the main name on the construction industry signboard. I do not ever recall seeing a Welsh-based building company in charge of the contract, to be honest, given the nature of the Welsh building industry. Your assertion that this is something new is misplaced. Given the partnering approach that we are using for health service and hospital construction, I think that that is perfectly proper. We need to monitor it to make sure that Welsh firms are not disadvantaged when it comes to getting

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr wyf yn ceisio meddwl am amser dros y 40 neu 50 mlynedd diwethaf imi yrru heibio safle adeiladu yng Nghymru lle’r oedd ysbyty mawr newydd yn cael ei godi a chwmni adeiladu o Gymru oedd y prif enw ar arwydd y diwydiant adeiladu. Nid wyf yn cofio imi erioed weld cwmni adeiladu yng Nghymru yn gyfrifol am y contract, a dweud y gwir, ac ystyried natur diwydiant adeiladu Cymru. Mae eich honiad bod hyn yn rhywbeth newydd o’i le. Ac ystyried y dull gweithredu partneriaeth yr ydym yn ei ddefnyddio ar gyfer y gwasanaeth iechyd ac adeiladu ysbytai, yr wyf yn meddwl bod hynny’n hollol iawn. Mae angen inni ei fonitro i wneud yn siŵr nad yw cwmnïau yng Nghymru dan anfantais pan ddaw’n amser

14

24/02/2009

subcontracts. We also need to make sure that, having got the subcontract, they are not screwed by the main contractor by being made to wait far too long for their money. It is part of the partnering scheme with the big contractors that they do not do that on our hospital construction programme.

ennill is-gontractau. Mae arnom hefyd angen gwneud yn siŵr, ar ôl ennill yr is-gontract, nad yw’r prif gontractwr yn manteisio arnynt drwy wneud iddynt aros yn rhy hir o lawer am eu harian. Mae’n rhan o’r cynllun partneriaeth gyda’r contractwyr mawr nad ydynt yn gwneud hynny ar ein rhaglen adeiladu ysbytai.

David Lloyd: A wnewch chi ymuno â mi i groesawu gwaith da y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth wrth hyrwyddo economi Abertawe ar yr adeg anodd hon? Mae mwy na 100 o swyddi wedi eu creu gan gwmni Admiral yn SA1, a gwelwyd buddsoddiad o £7.5 miliwn mewn unedau diwydiannol ym mro Abertawe.

David Lloyd: Will you join me in welcoming the good work of the Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport in promoting the economy of Swansea at this difficult time? More than 100 jobs have been created by Admiral in SA1, and there has been an investment of £7.5 million in industrial units in the Swansea borough.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr oeddwn yn hapus i glywed y newyddion hynny, yn enwedig oherwydd yr oeddwn yn Abertawe ar y diwrnod y gwnaed y cyhoeddiad bod 119 o swyddi ychwanegol i’w creu gan Admiral. Cwmni yswiriant o Gaerdydd ydyw, ond yn awr mae un o’i ganolfannau mwyaf, gyda mwy na 1,000 o bobl yn gweithio ynddi, yn SA1 yn nociau Abertawe. Fel y digwyddodd, yr oeddwn yn Abertawe ar y diwrnod hwnnw ac felly yn gallu dathlu ar y cyd â phawb yno. Mae’n galonogol clywed newyddion da pan ydych yn cael newyddion drwg bron bob dydd yn y papurau dyddiol ac ar y radio a’r teledu. Yr oedd yn gam ymlaen ac yn llygedyn bach o oleuni yn y tywyllwch yr ydym wedi cynefino ag ef yn ystod y chwe mis diwethaf.

The First Minister: I took great pleasure in hearing that news, especially as I was in Swansea on the day on which the announcement was made that Admiral was to create 119 new jobs. It is an insurance company based in Cardiff, but now, one of its largest centres, with more than 1,000 people working in it, will be in SA1, which is in Swansea docks. As it happened, I was in Swansea on that day and I could therefore celebrate jointly with everyone there. It is encouraging to hear good news when you hear so much bad news on an almost daily basis in the newspapers and on the radio and television. It was a step forward and a glimmer of light in the darkness that we have become accustomed to during the past six months.

Employment Opportunities Cyfleoedd Cyflogaeth

Q4 Angela Burns: Will the First Minister make a statement regarding current employment opportunities in Wales? OAQ(3)1703(FM)

C4 Angela Burns: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am gyfleoedd cyflogaeth yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd? OAQ(3)1703(FM)

The First Minister: Since devolution, there has been a net increase of 124,000 jobs in Wales, which is an increase of some 10 per cent compared with an 8 per cent rise in the UK, and that is after allowing for the weakening that we have seen recently owing to the sharp global economic downturn. The Assembly Government is responding to sustain employment opportunities to the greatest extent possible.

Y Prif Weinidog: Ers datganoli, bu cynnydd net o 124,000 o swyddi yng Nghymru, sydd yn gynnydd o oddeutu 10 y cant o’i gymharu â chynnydd o 8 y cant yn y DU, ac mae hynny ar ôl caniatáu am y gwanio yr ydym wedi’i weld yn ddiweddar oherwydd y dirywiad economaidd byd-eang llym. Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ymateb i gynnal cyfleoedd cyflogaeth i’r graddau mwyaf posibl.

15

24/02/2009

Angela Burns: You and I share the same concerns about the reduction in the number of jobs available in Wales, which is why I wish to bring to your personal attention the case of a constituent of mine in Whitland, Carmarthenshire, who has a proven track record as a businessman, who operates a business in the area now and who wishes to expand. Following the expansion of his business, he would be able to offer a further 14 jobs. I know that 14 jobs may not sound much, but Whitland has lost 100 jobs in the past six months, so 14 jobs are very necessary. The stumbling block is our current planning laws. My constituent has appealed and made subsequent requests for development. He has been looking for sites all around Whitland and the area surrounding where the jobs are currently located, but he cannot move the business too far away because, if he did so, more people in Whitland would lose their jobs. There is no suitable property for him to use and he therefore needs to develop a site. Carmarthenshire County Council has come back to him and said that, while it appreciates what he is trying to do, especially for the economy, it cannot do anything because it is being stymied by the Welsh Assembly Government’s current laws. I have brought this matter forward on a number of occasions, as the Record will show, and so I am asking whether you, First Minister, would care to look at it. I ask you particularly to see whether you can move positively on the consultation on housing and development in rural areas, as that might be able to help my constituent. Fourteen jobs are 14 jobs in a very hard-pressed town.

Angela Burns: Yr ydych chi a minnau’n rhannu’r un pryderon am y gostyngiad yn nifer y swyddi sydd ar gael yng Nghymru. Dyna pam mae arnaf eisiau tynnu eich sylw personol at achos un o’m hetholwyr yn Hendy-gwyn ar Daf, Sir Gaerfyrddin, sydd ag enw da fel gŵr busnes, sy’n rhedeg busnes yn yr ardal nawr ac sy’n dymuno ehangu. Yn dilyn ehangu ei fusnes, byddai’n gallu cynnig 14 o swyddi eraill. Gwn nad yw 14 o swyddi’n swnio’n llawer, ond mae Hendy-gwyn ar Daf wedi colli 100 o swyddi dros y chwe mis diwethaf, felly mae 14 o swyddi’n angenrheidiol iawn. Ein cyfreithiau cynllunio presennol sy’n ein rhwystro. Mae fy etholwr wedi apelio ac wedi gwneud ceisiadau dilynol i ddatblygu. Mae wedi bod yn edrych am safleoedd o amgylch Hendy-gwyn ar Daf i gyd a’r ardal gyfagos lle na cheir swyddi ar hyn o bryd, ond ni all symud y busnes yn rhy bell oherwydd, petai’n gwneud hynny, byddai mwy o bobl yn Hendy-gwyn ar Daf yn colli eu swyddi. Nid oes dim eiddo addas iddo ei ddefnyddio ac felly mae arno angen datblygu safle. Mae Cyngor Sir Caerfyrddin wedi dod yn ôl ato ac wedi dweud, er ei fod yn gwerthfawrogi’r hyn y mae’n ceisio ei wneud, yn enwedig ar gyfer yr economi, ni all wneud dim oherwydd ei fod yn cael ei rwystro gan gyfreithiau presennol Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. Yr wyf wedi cyflwyno’r mater hwn droeon, fel y bydd y Cofnod yn ddangos, ac felly yr wyf yn gofyn, a fyddech chi, Brif Weinidog, yn edrych arno. Yr wyf yn gofyn ichi’n benodol i weld a allwch symud yn gadarnhaol ar yr ymgynghoriad ar dai a datblygu mewn ardaloedd gwledig, gan y gallai hynny helpu fy etholwr. Mae pedair swydd ar ddeg yn 14 swydd mewn tref sydd dan gryn bwysau.

The First Minister: I certainly agree that 14 jobs in Whitland are not to be sniffed at, at the moment. However, I cannot comment on a matter that may end up going to appeal under the planning regime. I am most mystified by what the local authority said about this issue, namely that we are in some way responsible for it turning down a planning application. Local authorities turn down or pass planning applications. They are entirely responsible for those decisions, but the matter can then go, on appeal, to the Planning Inspectorate. If your constituent

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr wyf yn sicr na ellir cymryd 14 o swyddi yn Hendy-gwyn ar Daf yn ysgafn, ar hyn o bryd. Fodd bynnag, ni allaf roi sylwadau ar fater a all fynd i apêl dan y drefn gynllunio. Yr wyf wedi fy nrysu gan yr hyn a ddywedodd yr awdurdod lleol am y mater, sef ein bod mewn rhyw ffordd yn gyfrifol am ei benderfyniad dros wrthod cais cynllunio. Awdurdodau lleol sy’n gwrthod neu’n trosglwyddo ceisiadau cynllunio. Nhw sy’n gwbl gyfrifol am y penderfyniadau hynny, ond wedyn gall y mater fynd ymlaen, i apêl, i’r Arolygiaeth Gynllunio. Os yw eich

16

24/02/2009

believes that he has reasonable grounds for appeal, he should appeal, but I do not think that I should comment beyond that. We are not sitting next to the planning committee of Carmarthenshire County Council or any other county council telling them which applications to pass and which not to pass.

etholwr yn credu bod ganddo reswm rhesymol dros yr apêl, dylai apelio, ond nid wyf yn meddwl y dylwn roi sylwadau y tu hwnt i hynny. Nid ydym yn eistedd wrth ymyl pwyllgor cynllunio Cyngor Sir Caerfyrddin nac unrhyw gyngor sir arall yn dweud wrthynt pa geisiadau i’w pasio a pha rai i beidio â’u pasio.

Alun Davies: Many of us, from all parties, are probably spending time talking to employers and businesses about how the Government can help to sustain employment and to create new employment opportunities.

Alun Davies: Mae’n debyg bod nifer ohonom, o bob plaid, yn treulio llawer o amser yn siarad â chyflogwyr ac â busnesau ynghylch sut y gall y Llywodraeth helpu i gynnal cyflogaeth a chreu cyfleoedd cyflogaeth newydd.

2.00 p.m.

Employers that I have been talking to in Mid and West Wales are clear that they want to see the Government making strategic investments in the future to underpin a strong economic base that will sustain Wales when we come out of the current economic downturn. I welcome the investment in the enterprise networks and in the business innovation support project. Would you agree that it is through these sorts of projects that we will maintain current employment in industry and manufacturing in Wales but also invest in a future vibrant economy?

Mae cyflogwyr yr wyf wedi bod yn siarad â hwy yn y canolbarth a’r gorllewin yn glir eu bod am weld y Llywodraeth yn buddsoddi’n strategol yn y dyfodol er mwyn ategu sylfaen economaidd gadarn a fydd yn gynhaliaeth i Gymru pan ddeuwn i ddiwedd y dirywiad economaidd presennol. Croesawaf y buddsoddiad yn y rhwydweithiau menter ac yn y prosiect cymorth arloesi i fusnesau. A gytunech mai drwy brosiectau o’r mathau hyn y byddwn yn cynnal y gyflogaeth bresennol mewn diwydiant a gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru a hefyd yn buddsoddi mewn economi ffyniannus ar gyfer y dyfodol?

The First Minister: I am glad that you made that last point. That is sometimes forgotten. We all accept that there is a need for a survival package, and that is what ReAct and ProAct are all about—they are an attempt to minimise the impact of today’s problems on people who have been made redundant or who are currently threatened with redundancy—but we also have to be aware of what will happen when the upturn comes. Are we going to be ready for the upturn? Are we going to be as competitive as possible, to take advantage of the low pound and the high euro when the upturn comes? When markets and orders return, we have to be in there with new products and processes and advanced communication systems, whether that is via broadband or more conventional methods. We must ensure that we have the right skills and are ready for the upturn when it happens.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr wyf yn falch ichi wneud y pwynt olaf hwnnw. Anghofir hynny weithiau. Yr ydym oll yn derbyn bod angen pecyn goroesi, a dyna holl bwrpas ReAct a ProAct—maent yn ymgais i leihau effaith y problemau presennol ar bobl sydd wedi’u diswyddo neu sydd dan fygythiad o golli eu swyddi ar hyn o bryd—ond rhaid inni fod yn ymwybodol hefyd o’r hyn a ddigwydd pan ddaw’r gwelliant. A fyddwn yn barod am y gwelliant? A fyddwn mor gystadleuol ag sy’n bosibl, er mwyn manteisio ar werth isel y bunt a gwerth uchel yr ewro pan ddaw’r gwelliant? Pan fydd marchnadoedd ac archebion yn ailgodi, rhaid inni fod yn barod â chynhyrchion a phrosesau newydd a systemau cyfathrebu datblygedig, boed hynny drwy fand eang neu ddulliau mwy confensiynol. Rhaid inni sicrhau y bydd y sgiliau iawn gennym a’n bod yn barod am y gwelliant pan ddaw.

17

24/02/2009

Leanne Wood: I am sure that you will agree that public sector jobs are the most secure, particularly in the current economic climate. A new public-private partnership unit has been established, and I am concerned that this development could lead to more private sector involvement in public services in Wales. Are you concerned that the potential expansion of PPP in Wales is potentially dangerous, particularly in terms of the security of public sector jobs? Furthermore, would you be prepared to give an undertaking that people who are currently working in the public sector in Wales will not be transferred to the private sector as a result of work undertaken by the new public-private partnership unit?

Leanne Wood: Yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunwch mai swyddi’r sector cyhoeddus yw’r rhai mwyaf diogel, yn enwedig yn yr hinsawdd economaidd bresennol. Mae uned partneriaethau cyhoeddus-preifat newydd wedi’i sefydlu, ac yr wyf yn pryderu y gallai’r datblygiad hwn arwain at fwy o ymwneud gan y sector preifat mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. A ydych yn pryderu y gallai’r ehangu posibl ar bartneriaethau cyhoeddus-preifat yng Nghymru fod yn beryglus, yn enwedig o ran diogelwch swyddi yn y sector cyhoeddus? At hynny, a fyddech yn barod i addo na fydd pobl sy’n gweithio ar hyn o bryd yn y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru’n cael eu trosglwyddo i’r sector preifat o ganlyniad i waith gan yr uned partneriaethau cyhoeddus-preifat newydd?

The First Minister: That is not the purpose of the public-private partnership unit. It has been set up to ensure that where you have a public-private partnership, as with energy from waste or anaerobic digester schemes, where a consortium of local authorities will apply to us for a lot of assistance to support the scheme, that consortium of five, six, 10 or however many local authorities and us as the Government, from whom they are requesting major capital subsidy and sometimes a revenue subsidy over 20 years, are not taken to the cleaners by bidders coming in from the private sector. It may be a bit of a one-off for us but those bidders may have dealt with 20 such schemes, so they will know more about it than we do. We want to ensure that we are an intelligent customer, balancing out the relationship between the private provider and the public sector commissioner.

Y Prif Weinidog: Nid hynny yw pwrpas yr uned partneriaethau cyhoeddus-preifat newydd. Mae wedi’i sefydlu i sicrhau, lle y ceir partneriaeth cyhoeddus-preifat, fel cynlluniau troi gwastraff yn ynni neu dreulwyr anerobig, lle y bydd consortiwm o awdurdodau lleol yn ymgeisio i ni am lawer o gymorth i gynnal y cynllun, na fydd y consortiwm hwnnw o bump, chwech, 10 neu ba nifer bynnag o awdurdodau lleol a ninnau fel y Llywodraeth, y gofynnant am gymhorthdal cyfalaf mawr ganddi ac weithiau gymhorthdal refeniw dros 20 mlynedd, yn cael ei flingo gan ymgeiswyr sy’n dod i mewn o’r sector preifat. Gallai fod yn gynllun eithaf anarferol i ni ond gallai’r ymgeiswyr hynny fod wedi delio ag 20 o gynlluniau o’r fath, felly byddant yn gwybod mwy amdano nag yr ydym ni. Yr ydym am sicrhau ein bod yn gwsmer deallus, yn sicrhau perthynas gytbwys rhwng y darparwr preifat a’r corff sy’n comisiynu yn y sector cyhoeddus.

Further Education Addysg Bellach

Q5 Nick Bourne: Will the First Minister make a statement on the provision of further education in Wales? OAQ(3)1719(FM)

C5 Nick Bourne: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am y ddarpariaeth addysg bellach yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)1719(FM)

The First Minister: Further education, both 16-19 education and post-19 education, forms an important and integral part of the Welsh education network, and we are

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae addysg bellach, sef addysg 16-19 ac addysg ôl-19, yn rhan bwysig ac annatod o rwydwaith addysg Cymru, ac yr ydym wedi ymrwymo i sicrhau

18

24/02/2009

committed to ensuring that the network remains vibrant and effective. That is why we have committed additional funding during the economic downturn that is accessible by the further education sector.

bod y rhwydwaith yn aros yn ffyniannus ac yn effeithiol. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi neilltuo cyllid ychwanegol yn ystod y dirywiad economaidd y mae’r sector addysg bellach yn gallu mynd ato.

Nick Bourne: The First Minister will be aware of the serious and sustained criticism of his Assembly Government’s decision to cut the funding for further education at a time when training and skills are needed most. The further education sector is also peeved and disappointed to say the least that it has not been involved in the economic summits—representatives of FE have not been present at those. Does the First Minister intend to reverse that decision and does he intend to put more funding into the FE sector at this time, when it needs it most?

Nick Bourne: Bydd y Prif Weinidog yn ymwybodol o’r feirniadaeth ddifrifol a chyson o’r penderfyniad gan ei Lywodraeth Cynulliad i dorri’r cyllid ar gyfer addysg bellach ar adeg pan fo’r angen mwyaf am hyfforddiant a sgiliau. Mae’r sector addysg bellach wedi digio hefyd ac wedi’i siomi, a dweud y lleiaf, am nad yw wedi bod â rhan yn yr uwchgynadleddau economaidd—nid yw cynrychiolwyr addysg bellach wedi bod yn bresennol yn y rheini. A yw’r Prif Weinidog yn bwriadu gwrthdroi’r penderfyniad hwnnw ac a yw’n bwriadu rhoi mwy o gyllid i’r sector addysg bellach ar yr adeg hon, pan fo arno’i angen fwyaf?

The First Minister: It depends what you mean by ‘put more funding into the FE sector’. We have made more funding available for the FE sector, but it has to win it. We put £48 million of funding into ProAct, half of which is for training and, therefore, the FE sector can bid for that £24 million. Likewise with ReAct, although it is harder there, because people will come in ones and twos to apply for ReAct funding and not in batches. However, if institutions are flexible enough, they can react to ReAct, and some are already doing so. You will have seen Coleg Gwent’s advertisements about ReAct, which say something like ‘Facing redundancy? How can Coleg Gwent help you?’. Coleg Gwent clearly sees this as a potential market.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’n dibynnu ar beth yr ydych yn ei olygu wrth ‘roi mwy o gyllid i’r sector addysg bellach’. Yr ydym wedi darparu mwy o gyllid ar gyfer y sector addysg bellach, ond rhaid iddo’i ennill. Rhoesom £48 miliwn o gyllid at ProAct, y mae ei hanner ar gyfer hyfforddiant ac, felly, gall y sector addysg bellach ymgeisio am y £24 miliwn hwnnw. Yr un modd yn achos ReAct, er ei bod yn anos yn hynny o beth, gan y bydd pobl yn dod fesul un a dau i ymgeisio am gyllid ReAct ac nid yn llwythi. Fodd bynnag, os yw sefydliadau’n ddigon hyblyg, gallant ymateb i ReAct, ac mae rhai’n gwneud hynny eisoes. Byddwch wedi gweld hysbysebion Coleg Gwent am ReAct, sy’n dweud rhywbeth tebyg i ‘Yn wynebu colli’ch swydd? Sut y gall Coleg Gwent eich helpu?’. Mae’n amlwg bod Coleg Gwent o’r farn bod hon yn farchnad ddichonol.

We have put £20 million into sustaining the apprenticeship system. Again, that is not putting money into the FE sector, but it is putting money indirectly into the sector, provided that applicants win the contracts, to sustain apprenticeship programmes and to respond to redundancy, or the threat of redundancy, under the ProAct scheme.

Yr ydym wedi rhoi £20 miliwn at gynnal y system brentisiaethau. Unwaith eto, nid yw hynny’n gyfystyr â rhoi arian i’r sector addysg bellach, ond mae’n golygu rhoi arian yn anuniongyrchol i’r sector, ar yr amod y bydd ymgeiswyr yn ennill y contractau, i gynnal rhaglenni prentisiaethau ac i ymateb os caiff swyddi eu dileu, neu os bydd bygythiad i’w dileu, dan y cynllun ProAct.

Christine Chapman: During the current economic downturn, the extent to which

Christine Chapman: Yn ystod y dirywiad economaidd presennol, mae’r graddau y gall

19

24/02/2009

further education has a role to play in working with business has become even more apparent. What is the Welsh Assembly Government doing to ensure that further education maximises its potential to work with companies and, in particular, to take advantage of the ProAct scheme, which is being rolled out across Wales? What assurances can you give me that the Welsh Assembly Government will monitor further education’s uptake of ProAct?

addysg bellach chwarae rhan wrth gydweithio â busnesau wedi dod yn amlycach byth. Pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn eu cymryd i sicrhau bod addysg bellach yn cydweithio â chwmnïau i’r graddau mwyaf posibl ac, yn benodol, i fanteisio ar y cynllun ProAct, sy’n cael ei roi ar waith ledled Cymru? Pa sicrwydd y gallwch ei roi i mi y bydd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn monitro'r modd y bydd addysg bellach yn defnyddio ProAct?

The First Minister: ProAct would generally cover the 19-plus age group, and the £20 million that we put into the programme for sustaining apprenticeships would cover the 16 to 19 age group, which makes up the core activities of FE. There should be a balance between what is done for the 16 to 19 age range and the 19-plus group. There is roughly a similar sum of money available, because half of the ProAct scheme is for training—in theory, there is £24 million extra there and, I think, £25 million for sustaining the number of modern apprenticeships. It is a bit early to monitor this, but we will be looking at it later in the year, in order to see to what extent FE has managed to get a good and fair share of the additional money that we are pumping in.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yn gyffredinol, byddai ProAct yn cynnwys grŵp oedran y rhai sy’n 19 oed ac yn hŷn, a byddai’r £20 miliwn a roesom at y rhaglen i gynnal prentisiaethau’n cynnwys y grŵp oedran rhwng 16 a 19 oed, sy’n rhan o weithgareddau craidd addysg bellach. Dylid dal y ddysgl yn wastad rhwng yr hyn a wneir dros y rhai yn yr ystod oedran rhwng 16 a 19 oed a’r grŵp sy’n 19 oed neu’n hŷn. Mae swm gweddol debyg o arian ar gael, gan fod hanner y cynllun ProAct ar gyfer hyfforddiant—mewn egwyddor, mae £24 miliwn ychwanegol yn hwnnw a £25 miliwn, yr wyf yn credu, i gynnal nifer y prentisiaethau modern. Mae braidd yn gynnar i fonitro hyn, ond byddwn yn edrych arni’n ddiweddarach yn y flwyddyn, er mwyn gweld i ba raddau y mae addysg bellach wedi llwyddo i gael cyfran dda a theg o’r arian ychwanegol yr ydym yn ei roi.

Jenny Randerson: You have just raised the issue of the £20 million apprenticeships package. There is a bit of a fog surrounding the exact amount that will be available from that £20 million. Can you confirm that the total funding is indeed £20 million? I gather that this is, in part, made up of European structural fund money. Is that the case? If so, how much is the Welsh Assembly Government putting in? How much of that £20 million package will be available for FE colleges, and other training organisations, to bid for? As it is a total package, how much is going to be available for colleges and training providers?

Jenny Randerson: Yr ydych newydd godi mater y pecyn o £20 miliwn ar gyfer prentisiaethau. Mae ychydig o ansicrwydd ynghylch yr union swm a fydd ar gael o’r £20 miliwn hwnnw. A allwch gadarnhau bod cyfanswm y cyllid yn wir yn £20 miliwn? Yr wyf yn casglu bod hyn, yn rhannol, yn cynnwys arian o’r cronfeydd strwythurol Ewropeaidd. A yw hynny’n wir? Os ydyw, faint y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ei gyfrannu? Faint o’r pecyn hwnnw o £20 miliwn a fydd ar gael i ymgeisio amdano gan golegau addysg bellach, a chyrff hyfforddi eraill? Gan ei fod yn becyn cyfan, faint ohono a fydd ar gael i golegau a darparwyr hyfforddiant?

The First Minister: The £20 million package is for the recruitment of new apprentices. It is not possible to set a reserve proportion for FE providers, as there will be other work-based providers that will be

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’r pecyn o £20 miliwn ar gyfer recriwtio prentisiaid newydd. Nid oes modd neilltuo cyfran ar gyfer darparwyr addysg bellach, gan y bydd darparwyr eraill sy’n seiliedig ar waith a fydd yn ymgeisio

20

24/02/2009

bidding for it—we have not said that half will go to FE and half to work-based learning providers. You asked how much of the £20 million is Welsh Assembly Government money, and how much is European money: it is one package. We put the bid in through the Welsh European Funding Office, and, provided that it meets the rules that have been agreed between WEFO, which is an arm of the Assembly Government, and European structural funds, you cannot then make a distinction, as that will depend on the intervention rate. We are currently negotiating what we believe may end up as an improvement in the intervention rate. It would be wrong of me to try to argue the toss on that. Clearly, we want the intervention rate to be as generous to us as possible, so that we can start expanding schemes.

amdano—nid ydym wedi dweud y bydd hanner yn mynd i addysg bellach a hanner i ddarparwyr dysgu seiliedig ar waith. Gofynasoch pa faint o’r £20 miliwn sy’n arian o eiddo Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, a pha faint sy’n arian Ewropeaidd: mae’n un pecyn. Cyflwynasom y cais drwy Swyddfa Cyllid Ewropeaidd Cymru, ac, ar yr amod ei fod yn unol â’r rheolau y cytunwyd arnynt rhwng Swyddfa Cyllid Ewropeaidd Cymru, sy’n gangen o Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, a chronfeydd strwythurol Ewropeaidd, ni allwch wahaniaethu wedyn, gan y bydd hynny’n dibynnu ar y gyfradd ymyrraeth. Ar hyn o bryd, yr ydym yn negodi’r hyn a fydd, yr ydym yn credu, yn gyfradd ymyrraeth well yn y pen draw. Ni fyddai’n iawn imi geisio dyfalu ynghylch hynny. Wrth gwrs, yr ydym am i’r gyfradd ymyrraeth fod mor hael â ni ag sy’n bosibl, fel y gallwn ddechrau ehangu cynlluniau.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Hoffwn groesawu’r datganiad ynghylch y cyfleoedd i sefydliadau addysg bellach gynnig am yr arian ychwanegol hwn, sy’n cyfateb â’r hyn mae’r Gweinidog yn Llundain, John Denham, wedi ei wneud. Mae wedi rhoi swm penodol i addysg bellach ar gyfer yr union waith hwn, sef delio gyda diweithdra ac ail-hyfforddi pobl, er mwyn iddynt gael cyfle i fynd yn ôl i’r gweithle. Yr wyf wedi clywed cwynion a chonsyrn gan Goleg Sir Gâr ynglŷn a’r sefyllfa, ond bydd gan golegau addysg bellach ledled Cymru y cyfle, wrth wneud ceisiadau am yr arian ychwanegol hwn, i wneud yn iawn am y diffyg yn eu cyllidebau.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: I would like to welcome the announcement regarding the opportunities for further education institutions to bid for this additional funding, which corresponds to what John Denham, the Minister in London, has done. He has given further education a specific sum for this work, to deal with unemployment and people’s retraining, giving them an opportunity to return to the workplace. I have heard complaints and concern from Coleg Sir Gâr about the situation, but further education colleges throughout Wales will have the opportunity, by applying for this extra funding, to make up for the funding deficit.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr wyf yn deall yr ofnau sydd gan Goleg Sir Gâr a cholegau eraill y mae canran eithaf uchel o’u gwaith yn ymwneud ag oedolion ifanc sydd yn hŷn na 19 oed. Po fwyaf yw’r ganran sydd wedi ei fuddsoddi gennych mewn cyrsiau i bobl hŷn na 19, y gwaethaf yw’r setliad presennol. Po fwyaf yw’r ganran sydd gennych yn y grŵp 16 i 19 oed, byddwch yn gwneud yn llawer gwell o ran y fformiwla newydd. Dyna broblem fawr Coleg Sir Gâr, ond fel y dywedasoch, mae ganddo gyfle yn awr i gynnig am ganran uchel o’r arian newydd sydd ar gael drwy broses dendro ProAct a’r £20 miliwn ar gyfer prentisiaethau.

The First Minister: I understand the fears of Coleg Sir Gâr and other colleges that do quite a lot of their work with young adults post 19. The higher the percentage invested in courses for people post 19, the worse the present settlement. The higher the percentage you have in the 16 to 19 age group, you will do much better with regard to the new formula. That is Coleg Sir Gâr’s big problem, but as you said, it has an opportunity now to bid for a large percentage of the new funding that is available through the ProAct tendering process and the £20 million for apprenticeships.

2.10 p.m.

21

24/02/2009

Jeff Cuthbert: First Minister, will you join me in congratulating The College Ystrad Mynach, which, last week, was awarded the Make Your Mark Award for Enterprise by Siôn Simon MP, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Further Education? Do you agree that further education will be a key partner in delivering many important European structural funded projects, such as Skillbuild and Reaching the Heights?

Jeff Cuthbert: Brif Weinidog, a wnewch ymuno â mi i longyfarch Coleg Ystrad Mynach, y dyfarnwyd iddo’r Make Your Mark Award for Enterprise yr wythnos diwethaf gan Siôn Simon AS, yr Is-ysgrifennydd Gwladol Seneddol dros Addysg Bellach? A ydych yn cytuno y bydd addysg bellach yn bartner allweddol wrth gyflenwi llawer o brosiectau pwysig sydd wedi’u hariannu gan gronfeydd strwythurol Ewropeaidd, fel Adeiladu Sgiliau a Reaching the Heights?

The First Minister: Yes, I do congratulate The College Ystrad Mynach. It is a college that I have been to myself for various prize giving evenings. It is a college with a lot of go about it, and the students’ appreciation of staff’s work for them, and vice versa, is a marked feature of that college. It is well led, and everybody there participates to a high degree. I am not surprised that they have won the Make Your Mark award. They should be going from strength to strength, despite the current economic downturn.

Y Prif Weinidog: Ydwyf, yr wyf yn llongyfarch Coleg Ystrad Mynach. Mae’n goleg yr wyf wedi bod ynddo fy hun ar gyfer gwahanol nosweithiau gwobrwyo. Mae’n goleg sydd â digon o fynd ynddo, ac mae gwerthfawrogiad y myfyrwyr o waith y staff drostynt, ac fel arall, yn nod amgen ar y coleg hwnnw. Mae dan arweiniad da, ac mae pawb yno’n cyfranogi i raddau mawr. Nid wyf yn synnu ei fod wedi ennill y wobr Make Your Mark. Dylent fynd o nerth i nerth, er gwaethaf y dirywiad economaidd presennol.

Apprenticeships Prentisiaethau

Q6 Joyce Watson: What action is the Welsh Assembly Government taking to support apprenticeships in Wales? OAQ(3)1708(FM)

C6 Joyce Watson: Pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n eu cymryd i gefnogi prentisiaethau yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)1708(FM)

The First Minister: In addition to the £20 million, which we discussed earlier, to ensure the availability of quality training for learners during the economic downturn and to meet employers’ skills needs, now and when the economy recovers, an additional £25 million has been made available to fulfil the ‘One Wales’ commitment to increase apprenticeship numbers.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yn ogystal â’r £20 miliwn, a drafodasom yn gynharach, i sicrhau bod hyfforddiant o ansawdd da ar gael i ddysgwyr yn ystod y dirywiad economaidd ac i ddiwallu anghenion cyflogwyr o ran sgiliau, yn awr a phan fydd yr economi’n gwella, mae £25 miliwn ychwanegol wedi’i ddarparu i gyflawni’r ymrwymiad yn ‘Cymru’n Un’ i gynyddu niferoedd y prentisiaethau.

Joyce Watson: This week is national apprenticeship week, when we recognise and celebrate the important role that apprenticeships play in the economy. There is renewed interest in apprenticeships at the moment, because we recognise the fact that they can help us to meet the economic challenges facing us now and in the future—a subject that was discussed at yesterday’s meeting of the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body committee that is

Joyce Watson: Yr wythnos hon yw wythnos genedlaethol prentisiaethau, pan fyddwn yn cydnabod ac yn dathlu’r rhan bwysig y mae prentisiaethau’n ei chwarae yn yr economi. Mae diddordeb o’r newydd mewn prentisiaethau ar hyn o bryd, gan ein bod yn sylweddoli y gallant ein helpu i ateb yr heriau economaidd sy’n ein hwynebu’n awr ac yn y dyfodol—pwnc a drafodwyd ddoe yng nghyfarfod pwyllgor y Corff Rhyngseneddol Prydeinig-Gwyddelig sy’n edrych yn fanwl

22

24/02/2009

looking at this issue closely. You indicated in your answer that apprenticeships are receiving renewed support from the Assembly Government and the Labour Government in Westminster. What discussions have you had with your Westminster colleagues about the Apprenticeship, Skills, Children and Learning Bill and its possible impact on Wales?

ar y mater hwn. Dywedasoch yn eich ateb fod prentisiaethau’n cael cymorth o’r newydd gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad a’r Llywodraeth Lafur yn San Steffan. Pa drafodaethau yr ydych wedi’u cael gyda’ch cymheiriaid yn San Steffan am y Mesur Prentisiaethau, Sgiliau, Plant a Dysgu a’i effaith bosibl ar Gymru?

The First Minister: I personally have not had any such discussions, but Jane Hutt and John Griffiths have been in close contact with the relevant UK Government Ministers. There is still a big agenda to pursue in the matter of apprenticeships, perhaps especially in trying to ensure that people understand that the traditional vision of apprenticeships as being in construction and engineering for boys, and hairdressing and beauty for girls, is now way in the past; you can get an apprenticeship in call-centre operation and business administration, as John Denham made clear when he spoke this morning.

Y Prif Weinidog: Nid wyf fi fy hun wedi cael unrhyw drafodaethau o’r fath, ond mae Jane Hutt a John Griffiths wedi bod mewn cysylltiad agos â’r Gweinidogion perthnasol yn Llywodraeth y DU. Mae agenda bwysig i’w dilyn o hyd ar fater prentisiaethau, yn enwedig efallai o ran ceisio sicrhau bod pobl yn deall bod y weledigaeth draddodiadol o brentisiaethau fel rhai ar gyfer adeiladu a pheirianneg yn achos bechgyn, a thrin gwallt a harddwch yn achos merched, wedi darfod ers talwm iawn; gallwch gael prentisiaeth mewn gweithredu canolfannau galwadau a gweinyddu busnes, fel yr eglurodd John Denham pan siaradodd y bore yma.

Andrew R.T. Davies: First Minister, on apprenticeships, you have touched on various aspects of the support that the Welsh Assembly Government is offering, but one of the dilemmas facing many people is that, because of the economic climate, halfway or three quarters of the way through, their apprenticeships are being terminated. One of the support measures that you offer is a £50 per apprenticeship support package for employers to carry on with the apprenticeship. When will this support package kick in, and more importantly, which budget will that support money come from?

Andrew R.T. Davies: Brif Weinidog, ynghylch prentisiaethau, yr ydych wedi cyfeirio at amryw o agweddau ar y cymorth y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ei gynnig, ond un math o gyfyng-gyngor sy’n wynebu llawer o bobl yw bod eu prentisiaethau’n cael eu terfynu, hanner y ffordd neu dri chwarter y ffordd drwodd, oherwydd yr hinsawdd economaidd. Un o’r mesurau cymorth yr ydych yn eu cynnig yw pecyn cymorth o £50 am bob prentisiaeth er mwyn i gyflogwyr barhau â’r brentisiaeth. Pa bryd y bydd y pecyn cymorth hwn yn dechrau ac, yn bwysicach na hynny, o ba gyllideb y daw’r arian am y cymorth hwnnw?

The First Minister: You are right to point out that the difficulties that have always occurred in the past during recessions can sometimes have a devastating impact on the recruitment of new apprentices. The apprenticeship system became sadly run down during the 1980s and the early 1990s, and we are determined that that will not happen during the present recession. It is hard to recreate the apprenticeship culture once it has been almost destroyed. We are rebuilding it now, but it is hard to do during a

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’n briodol ichi nodi bod yr anawsterau sydd wedi codi bob amser yn y gorffennol yn ystod dirwasgiadau’n gallu cael effaith drychinebus weithiau ar recriwtio prentisiaid newydd. Dirywiodd y system brentisiaethau, gwaetha’r modd, yn ystod y 1980au a dechrau’r 1990au, ac yr ydym yn benderfynol na fydd hynny’n digwydd yn ystod y dirwasgiad presennol. Mae’n anodd ail-greu diwylliant y prentisiaethau wedi iddo gael ei ddinistrio bron. Yr ydym yn ei ailgodi’n awr, ond

23

24/02/2009

recession, because employer-based apprenticeships—that is, those that are on employment terms, where you start at 16 or 17 as an employed apprentice—are much harder to maintain when the construction industry is in the sad state that it is in now, and the same applies to large parts of manufacturing, though luckily not to aerospace. Our answer, then, is to recruit more foundation apprentices where we carry the full cost for the first year. Then, having done nearly all the theory that they will need to complete their apprenticeship, we can offer them to an employer a year later, after a full year in college. We think that that is the best way to ensure that we do not let the apprenticeship system go down just because the economy has taken a downturn.

mae’n anodd gwneud hynny yn ystod dirwasgiad, gan fod prentisiaethau sy’n seiliedig ar gyflogwyr—hynny yw, y rheini sydd ar delerau cyflogaeth, lle y byddwch yn dechrau’n 16 neu’n 17 oed fel prentis cyflogedig—yn anos o lawer eu cynnal pan yw’r diwydiant adeiladu yn y cyflwr truenus y mae’n awr, ac mae’r un peth yn wir am rannau helaeth o’r diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu, ond nid am y diwydiant awyrofod, yn ffodus. Ein hateb ni, felly, yw recriwtio mwy o brentisiaid sylfaen lle y byddwn yn dwyn yr holl gost am y flwyddyn gyntaf. Yna, ar ôl gwneud bron yr holl waith theori y bydd ei angen arnynt i gwblhau eu prentisiaeth, gallwn eu cynnig i gyflogwr flwyddyn yn ddiweddarach, ar ôl blwyddyn lawn yn y coleg. Credwn mai dyna’r ffordd orau o sicrhau nad ydym yn gadael i’r system brentisiaethau gael ei cholli o ganlyniad i’r dirywiad yn yr economi.

Mohammad Asghar: First Minister, there has been criticism recently of the Olympics Delivery Authority for providing only 30 places for apprentices out of its workforce of more than 3,000. This is one tenth of 1 percent of the UK average of 3 per cent, and I hope that we are meeting or exceeding this average in Wales. I welcome the recent announcement that the Welsh Assembly Government is planning to make a further £20 million available to help firms recruit more apprentices. This is vital so that companies have the skills they need when there is an economic upturn. The Assembly funding is subject to support from European funds and I would like to ask the First Minister when this is likely to be given the go-ahead.

Mohammad Asghar: Brif Weinidog, yn ddiweddar bu beirniadaeth i Awdurdod Gweithredu’r Gemau Olympaidd am ddarparu dim ond 30 o leoedd i brentisiaid mewn gweithlu o dros 3,000. Dim ond degfed rhan o 1 y cant o lefel gyfartalog y DU o 3 y cant yw hyn, a gobeithiaf ein bod yn cyrraedd y cyfartaledd hwn yng Nghymru, neu’n rhagori arno. Croesawaf y cyhoeddiad diweddar bod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n bwriadu sicrhau bod £20 miliwn ychwanegol ar gael i helpu cwmnïau i recriwtio mwy o brentisiaid. Mae hyn yn hollbwysig fel bod gan gwmnïau’r sgiliau y mae eu hangen arnynt pan geir gwelliant economaidd. Mae cyllid y Cynulliad yn amodol ar gefnogaeth gan gronfeydd Ewropeaidd a hoffwn ofyn i’r Prif Weinidog pryd mae’n debygol y bydd hyn yn digwydd.

The First Minister: It will certainly be going ahead very shortly. If it is not going ahead now, it will certainly be going ahead on 1 April, but I will make sure that John Griffiths writes to you to clarify that point.

Y Prif Weinidog: Bydd yn sicr yn digwydd cyn bo hir. Os nad yw’n digwydd eisoes, bydd yn sicr yn digwydd ar 1 Ebrill, ond sicrhaf fod John Griffiths yn ysgrifennu atoch i gadarnhau’r pwynt hwnnw.

Health Services to Welsh Prisons Gwasanaethau Iechyd i Garchardai

Q7 Peter Black: Will the First Minister make a statement on the provision of health services to Welsh prisons? OAQ(3)1718(FM)

C7 Peter Black: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am y ddarpariaeth gwasanaethau iechyd i garchardai yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)1718(FM)

24

24/02/2009

The First Minister: The responsibility for commissioning health services in public sector prisons sits with the relevant local health board. LHBs, in partnership with the prisons, provide the majority of health services and aim to raise the standard of healthcare to match that available in the community outside.

Y Prif Weinidog: Cyfrifoldeb y bwrdd iechyd lleol perthnasol yw comisiynu gwasanaethau iechyd yng ngharchardai’r sector cyhoeddus. Byrddau iechyd lleol, mewn partneriaeth â’r carchardai, sy’n darparu’r rhan fwyaf o wasanaethau iechyd ac maent yn ceisio codi safon gofal iechyd i gyfateb i’r gofal iechyd sydd ar gael yn y gymuned y tu allan.

Peter Black: May I draw your attention to an article written by the Labour MP for Bridgend in The House Magazine on 9 February, in which she refers to the fact that an inreach community adolescent mental health service is not available in Parc prison. This is in contrast to the provision in England where prisoners have this provision and where extra funding has been provided to extend it. She has been told by the UK Government that this is the responsibility of the Welsh Assembly Government. She writes:

Peter Black: A gaf dynnu eich sylw at erthygl a ysgrifennwyd gan AS Llafur Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr yn The House Magazine ar 9 Chwefror, lle mae hi’n cyfeirio at y ffaith nad oes gwasanaeth iechyd meddwl cymunedol mewngymorth i’r glasoed ar gael yng ngharchar y Parc. Mae hyn yn wahanol i’r ddarpariaeth yn Lloegr lle mae carcharorion yn cael y ddarpariaeth hon ac mae cyllid ychwanegol wedi’i ddarparu i’w hymestyn. Mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi dweud wrthi mai cyfrifoldeb Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yw hyn. Mae hi’n ysgrifennu:

‘vulnerable children are being denied a service they have a right to receive, and one that is provided to children in England. Welsh children in Parc are suffering emotional pain and long-term suffering.’

mae gan blant agored i niwed hawl i dderbyn y gwasanaeth hwn, sy’n cael ei ddarparu i blant yn Lloegr, ond nid ydynt yn ei gael. Mae plant o Gymru yn y Parc yn dioddef poen emosiynol a dioddefaint hirdymor.

Do you agree with that assessment, First Minister, and what are you doing about it?

A ydych yn cytuno â’r asesiad hwnnw, Brif Weinidog, a beth yr ydych yn ei wneud am y peth?

The First Minister: Not in detail, no, but we do agree that there is a need to resolve the continuing deficit in child and adolescent mental health service provision at tiers 2, 3 and 4 for the young people held in the young offender institution attached to HMP Parc. The adult prison, of course, provides its own health service, but my understanding is that mental health services are provided only on an inreach basis at the moment into the YOI attached to Parc prison.

Y Prif Weinidog: Nid yn fanwl, nac ydw, ond yr ydym yn cytuno bod angen mynd i’r afael â’r diffyg sy’n parhau yn narpariaeth gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl plant a’r glasoed yn haenau 2, 3 a 4 i’r bobl ifanc a gedwir yn y sefydliad troseddwyr ifanc sy’n gysylltiedig â Charchar EM y Parc. Wrth gwrs, mae’r carchar i oedolion yn darparu ei wasanaeth iechyd ei hun, ond yr wyf ar ddeall mai dim ond ar sail mewngymorth y darperir gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl i’r sefydliad troseddwyr ifanc sy’n gysylltiedig â charchar y Parc.

Helen Mary Jones: Further to your response to Peter Black, First Minister, I am sure that you would agree that the level of service is not as it should be at the moment. Would you also agree that this is one of the difficulties that is caused by the fact that even though many things that affect youth justice are

Helen Mary Jones: I ddilyn eich ymateb i Peter Black, Brif Weinidog, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddech yn cytuno nad yw lefel y gwasanaeth fel y dylai fod ar hyn o bryd. A fyddech yn cytuno hefyd bod hyn yn un o’r anawsterau a achosir gan y ffaith bod nifer o bethau sy’n effeithio ar gyfiawnder ieuenctid

25

24/02/2009

devolved, youth justice itself is not. We have a ‘One Wales’ commitment to consider the possibility of devolving youth justice. Are you in a position to give us a statement this afternoon or would you possibly be able to write to me about any progress that we have been able to make in this regard?

wedi’u datganoli, ond nid cyfiawnder ieuenctid ei hun? Mae gennym ymrwymiad ‘Cymru’n Un’ i ystyried posibilrwydd datganoli cyfiawnder ieuenctid. A ydych mewn sefyllfa i roi datganiad inni brynhawn heddiw ynteu a allech o bosibl ysgrifennu ataf am unrhyw gynnydd yr ydym wedi gallu ei wneud yn hyn o beth?

The First Minister: A case was made regarding the point you make about the CAMHS deficit as regards Bridgend, and it was submitted to us in December. We have not yet determined that in conjunction with the Prison Health Partnership Board for Bridgend. Likewise, there is a further complication in that forensic child and adolescent mental health services, not only for the youth offenders institution attached to Parc and the Hillside secure children’s home, is also under consideration. Some of the resources made available for CAMHS development in 2009-10 for Wales as a whole will support that work. Progress is being made and we have a case for consideration at the moment on tier 2 and 3 child and adolescent mental health services.

Y Prif Weinidog: Gwnaethpwyd achos ynglŷn â’r pwynt a wnewch am y diffyg CAMHS ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr, ac fe’i cyflwynwyd inni ym mis Rhagfyr. Nid ydym wedi penderfynu ar hynny eto ar y cyd â Bwrdd Partneriaeth Iechyd Carchar Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr. Yn yr un modd, ceir mwy o gymhlethdod gan fod gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl fforensig plant a’r glasoed, nid yn unig i’r sefydliad troseddwyr ifanc sy’n gysylltiedig â’r Parc a chartref plant diogel Hillside, hefyd yn cael eu hystyried. Bydd rhai o’r adnoddau sydd ar gael i ddatblygu CAMHS yn 2009-10 yng Nghymru gyfan yn ategu’r gwaith hwnnw. Mae cynnydd yn cael ei wneud ac mae gennym achos i’w ystyried ar hyn o bryd ar haen 2 a 3 gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl plant a’r glasoed.

On the wider issue of youth justice, the conundrum is whether you can separate youth justice from justice as a whole. If you are responsible for youth justice, do you have to be responsible for adult justice? Can you see youth justice as being more attached to the social justice responsibilities that we already have or is it interwoven so firmly with probation, prisons and the courts system, which are not devolved, that it cannot be taken out? That is the problem.

O ran mater ehangach cyfiawnder ieuenctid, y benbleth yw a allwch wahanu cyfiawnder ieuenctid a chyfiawnder yn gyffredinol. Os ydych yn gyfrifol am gyfiawnder ieuenctid, a oes rhaid ichi fod yn gyfrifol am gyfiawnder oedolion? A allwch ystyried bod cyfiawnder ieuenctid yn fwy cysylltiedig â’r cyfrifoldebau cyfiawnder cymdeithasol sydd gennym eisoes, ynteu a yw wedi’i blethu mor dynn â’r gwasanaeth prawf, carchardai a’r system llysoedd, nad ydynt wedi’u datganoli, fel nad oes modd eu gwahanu? Dyna’r broblem.

2.20 p.m.

You will be aware that the Welsh Affairs Committee of the House of Commons recommended five or six years ago that youth justice should be devolved, but there has been no action on that. The issue is where the dividing line will be, and whether the move from the present dividing line will be for the benefit of the children that you are trying to assist.

Byddwch yn ymwybodol bod Pwyllgor Materion Cymreig Tŷ’r Cyffredin wedi argymell bum neu chwe mlynedd yn ôl y dylid datganoli cyfiawnder ieuenctid, ond ni wnaethpwyd dim am y peth. Y broblem yw ym mhle y bydd y llinell rannu, ac a fydd symud oddi wrth y llinell rannu bresennol o fudd i’r plant yr ydych yn ceisio eu cynorthwyo.

Jonathan Morgan: First Minister, three Jonathan Morgan: Brif Weinidog,

26

24/02/2009

reports have been published this month which highlight the continuing failure of the health service to provide adequate healthcare for prisoners and young offenders across the United Kingdom. For example, in England, most primary care trusts during 2007-08 had not even completed an assessment of the health needs of prisoners in their area. Can you give an assurance that where it is relevant in Wales, the health boards that are responsible for the areas where there are prisons do a better job than their counterparts in England?

cyhoeddwyd tri adroddiad y mis hwn sy’n rhoi sylw i fethiant parhaus y gwasanaeth iechyd i ddarparu gofal iechyd digonol i garcharorion a throseddwyr ifanc ledled y Deyrnas Unedig. Er enghraifft, yn Lloegr, nid oedd y rhan fwyaf o ymddiriedolaethau gofal sylfaenol yn ystod 2007-08 wedi cwblhau asesiad o anghenion iechyd carcharorion eu hardal, hyd yn oed. A allwch roi sicrwydd, lle y bo’n berthnasol yng Nghymru, y bydd y byrddau iechyd sy’n gyfrifol am yr ardaloedd lle ceir carchardai yn gwneud yn well na’r byrddau cyfatebol yn Lloegr?

The First Minister: I do not think that I would go that far, Jonathan. Before prison healthcare was taken out of the hands of the prison service—and I am thinking of old public sector prisons such as Cardiff and Swansea, and not new private prisons such as HMP Parc—it was an appalling cinderella service. The improvement has been massive since then. That also implied that responsibility was transferred to the Assembly Government as regards public prisons in Wales, with the exception of Parc prison. There are other much wider social issues that we must address, which goes back to my attempt to answer Helen Mary Jones’s difficult question. If there are mental health problems that afflict prisoners, you must consider the wisdom of the sentencing policy that involves many with severe mental health problems being sent to prison in the first place, when what they may need is mental health treatment outside of prison. I cannot answer that question, but we must accept that sentencing so many people with mental health problems to prison in the first place is a fundamental issue.

Y Prif Weinidog: Nid wyf yn credu y byddwn yn mynd mor bell â hynny, Jonathan. Cyn i ofal iechyd carchardai gael ei dynnu o ddwylo’r gwasanaeth carchardai—ac yr wyf yn meddwl am hen garchardai’r sector cyhoeddus megis Caerdydd ac Abertawe, nid carchardai preifat newydd megis Carchar EM y Parc—yr oedd yn wasanaeth sinderela gwarthus. Bu gwelliant aruthrol ers hynny. Yr oedd hynny hefyd yn awgrymu y cafodd y cyfrifoldeb dros garchardai cyhoeddus Cymru ei drosglwyddo i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, ac eithrio carchar y Parc. Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â materion cymdeithasol llawer ehangach, sy’n mynd yn ôl i fy ymgais i ateb cwestiwn anodd Helen Mary Jones. Os ceir problemau iechyd meddwl sy’n effeithio ar garcharorion, rhaid ichi ystyried doethineb y polisi dedfrydu sy’n anfon llawer o bobl â phroblemau iechyd meddwl difrifol i’r carchar o gwbl, a hwythau ag angen, o bosibl, triniaeth iechyd meddwl y tu allan i’r carchar. Ni allaf ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw, ond rhaid inni dderbyn bod rhoi dedfryd o garchar i gynifer o bobl â phroblemau iechyd meddwl yn fater sylfaenol ynddo’i hun.

Low-cost Home Ownership Perchentyaeth Cost Isel

Q8 Mark Isherwood: Will the First Minister make a statement on the availability of low-cost home ownership in Wales? OAQ(3)1728(FM)

C8 Mark Isherwood: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am argaeledd perchentyaeth cost isel yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)1728(FM)

The First Minister: We strongly support home ownership and low-cost home ownership in Wales, and we are taking a number of steps to support it during a difficult housing market. During 2007-08, 484 low-cost home ownership units were provided by housing associations in Wales.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr ydym yn cefnogi perchentyaeth a pherchentyaeth cost isel yng Nghymru, ac yr ydym yn cymryd nifer o gamau i’w gefnogi mewn marchnad dai anodd. Yn ystod 2007-08, darparwyd 484 uned perchentyaeth cost isel gan gymdeithasau tai Cymru.

27

24/02/2009

Mark Isherwood: You will be aware that, at a UK level, the Communities and Local Government Committee in Westminster has called for more low-cost affordable homes to be built to meet current and future need, while the Assembly Government’s four-year target in Wales of building 6,500 homes up to 2011 may not be met. Therefore, what action is your Government taking to turn the empty homes consultative project with local authorities into an empty property rescue scheme, while recognising that Shelter Cymru states that although there are possibly 88,000 households on waiting lists, there are a minimum of 24,000 homes in Wales that have been empty for more than six months, and possibly by looking at the more regional approach that has been piloted in Kent and providing incentives for better regional joint working between different authorities and registered social landlords?

Mark Isherwood: Byddwch yn ymwybodol, ar lefel y DU, bod y Pwyllgor Cymunedau a Llywodraeth Leol yn San Steffan wedi galw am adeiladu mwy o dai fforddiadwy cost isel i fodloni’r angen presennol ac angen y dyfodol, tra bo posibilrwydd na chaiff targed pedair blynedd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yng Nghymru o adeiladu 6,500 o gartrefi erbyn 2011 ei gyrraedd. Felly, pa gamau y mae eich Llywodraeth yn eu cymryd i droi’r prosiect ymgynghorol cartrefi gwag gydag awdurdodau lleol yn gynllun achub adeiladau gwag, gan gydnabod bod Shelter Cymru’n datgan bod efallai 88,000 o aelwydydd ar restri aros, ond bod o leiaf 24,000 o gartrefi yng Nghymru sydd wedi bod yn wag ers dros chwe mis, ac o bosibl drwy edrych ar y dull mwy rhanbarthol a gafodd ei dreialu yng Nghaint a darparu cymhellion ar gyfer gwell cydweithio rhanbarthol rhwng gwahanol awdurdodau a landlordiaid cymdeithasol cofrestredig?

The First Minister: Our line has been that we accept that low-cost home ownership units under the section 106 agreements are not as available now as they were during a booming housing market. Therefore, we have switched the emphasis to social housing grant-provided homebuy schemes for low-cost home ownership. That is the only sensible thing to do during a housing downturn, because you have no leverage with private housebuilders who are reluctant to build anyway, therefore you cannot say, ‘You can only build here if you give us 100 low-cost units’. It would not be sensible to pretend that you have a negotiating power that you do not have during a housing downturn. It is a difficult time for low-cost home ownership, and I will ask Jocelyn Davies to look at the point that you made about Kent and reply to you directly. However, it is much easier to do regional-based assessments of demand and supply where you have a complex network of transport links—in and around London and the home counties—but it may not be as easy to do this in some parts of Wales.

Y Prif Weinidog: Ein safbwynt yw ein bod yn derbyn nad yw unedau perchentyaeth cost isel dan gytundebau adran 106 ar gael i’r un graddau nawr ag yr oeddent mewn marchnad dai ffyniannus. Felly, yr ydym wedi symud y pwyslais i gynlluniau cymorth prynu tai cymdeithasol gyda grantiau ar gyfer perchentyaeth cost isel. Dyna’r unig beth doeth i’w wneud yn ystod dirywiad marchnad dai, gan nad oes gennych ddim dylanwad dros adeiladwyr tai preifat sy’n gyndyn i adeiladu beth bynnag, felly ni allwch ddweud, ‘Ni chewch adeiladu yma oni bai eich bod yn rhoi 100 uned cost isel inni’. Ni fyddai’n ddoeth cogio bod gennych bŵer negodi nad yw’n bodoli yn ystod dirywiad marchnad dai. Mae’n gyfnod anodd i berchentyaeth cost isel, a gofynnaf i Jocelyn Davies ystyried y pwynt a wnaethoch am Gaint a’ch ateb yn uniongyrchol. Fodd bynnag, mae’n llawer haws cynnal asesiadau rhanbarthol o alw a chyflenwad os oes gennych rwydwaith cymhleth o gysylltiadau trafnidiaeth—yn ardal Llundain a’r siroedd cartref—ond efallai nad yw mor hawdd gwneud hyn mewn rhai rhannau o Gymru.

The Severn Bridges Pontydd Hafren

Q9 Michael German: Will the First Minister outline any conclusions that he has drawn on

C9 Michael German: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog amlinellu unrhyw gasgliadau y

28

24/02/2009

the feasibility study into the use of debit and credit cards on the Severn bridges? OAQ(3)1729(FM)

mae wedi dod iddynt ar yr astudiaeth ddichonoldeb i ddefnyddio cardiau debyd a chredyd ar bontydd Hafren? OAQ(3)1729(FM)

The First Minister: It is not for me to draw conclusions, because it is not a matter that has been devolved to Wales. The final report has not yet been submitted to the Department for Transport Ministers who have that responsibility. The Highways Agency is involved in preliminary discussions with banks on the possibility of introducing the use of credit cards. These include detailed operational, technical and contractual issues.

Y Prif Weinidog: Nid fy lle i yw dod i gasgliadau, gan nad yw hwn yn fater sydd wedi’i ddatganoli i Gymru. Nid yw’r adroddiad terfynol wedi’i gyflwyno eto i Weinidogion yr Adran Drafnidiaeth, a’u cyfrifoldeb hwy ydyw. Mae’r Asiantaeth Priffyrdd yn cael trafodaethau rhagarweiniol â banciau ynghylch posibilrwydd dechrau defnyddio cardiau credyd. Mae’r rhain yn cynnwys materion gweithredol, technegol a chytundebol manwl.

Michael German: First Minister, I am sure that you agree that the present system of paying by cash only or by TAG is antiquated and not in keeping with the best transport policies of Wales. It also acts as a brake upon development in Wales when you have these dreadful queues of people who are required to pay cash to get into Wales. The problem, as I understand it, is that the banks will charge for the use of a debit or credit card. Is this the primary reason for the length of time that it is taking to introduce this provision? If so, are you prepared to make representations to your Government on the fact that this is important to the economy, tourism and to encouraging better travel in Wales?

Michael German: Brif Weinidog, yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn cytuno bod y system bresennol o dalu mewn arian parod yn unig neu TAG yn hen ffasiwn ac nad yw’n cyd-fynd â pholisïau trafnidiaeth gorau Cymru. Mae hefyd yn gweithredu fel brêc ar ddatblygiad Cymru pan mae gennych y ciwiau erchyll hyn o bobl sy’n gorfod talu ag arian parod i ddod i mewn i Gymru. Y broblem, cyn belled ag y deallaf, yw y bydd y banciau’n codi tâl am ddefnyddio cerdyn debyd neu gredyd. Ai dyma’r prif reswm am yr amser y mae’n ei gymryd i gyflwyno’r ddarpariaeth hon? Os felly, a ydych yn barod cyflwyno sylwadau i’ch Llywodraeth am y ffaith bod hyn yn bwysig i’r economi, i dwristiaeth ac i annog gwell teithio yng Nghymru?

The First Minister: I do not have to make representations to my Government because I am the First Minister of it, so I do not have to worry about that side of things at all. If you mean the Westminster Government, I am sure that we would be able to do that, either via the Secretary of State for Wales or separately. However, you are right to point to the fact that the administration charges are one bone of contention. The banks say that the company operating the Severn bridge crossings will have to pay the administration charges. Although you would normally say that the use of a debit or a credit card is far cheaper to administer than cash, it is not necessarily on a net basis when you already have the employment of people to deal with the cash. Therefore, you do not actually get rid of any individuals by doing that. You still

Y Prif Weinidog: Nid oes rhaid imi gyflwyno sylwadau i fy Llywodraeth gan fy mod yn Brif Weinidog arni, felly nid oes rhaid imi boeni am hynny o gwbl. Os ydych yn sôn am Lywodraeth San Steffan, yr wyf yn siŵr y gallem wneud hynny, naill ai drwy Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru neu ar wahân. Fodd bynnag, yr ydych yn gywir pan ddywedwch fod y costau gweinyddol yn un asgwrn cynnen. Mae’r banciau’n dweud y bydd yn rhaid i’r cwmni sy’n gweithredu’r drefn ar gyfer croesi pont Hafren dalu’r costau gweinyddol. Er y byddech fel arfer yn dweud y byddai defnyddio cerdyn debyd neu gredyd yn llawer rhatach i’w weinyddu nag arian parod, nid yw o reidrwydd ar sail net pan yr ydych eisoes yn cyflogi pobl i ddelio â’r arian parod. Felly, ni fyddwch mewn gwirionedd yn cael gwared ag unrhyw

29

24/02/2009

have the same number of individuals but they are collecting less cash. That is what the argument seems to revolve around.

unigolion drwy wneud hynny. Bydd gennych yr un nifer o unigolion, ond byddant yn casglu llai o arian. Mae’n ymddangos mai dyna graidd y ddadl.

Nick Ramsay: I am pleased to hear that the First Minister does not have to make representations to his own Government. However, will the First Minister do all that he can to make sure that the Westminster Government is aware of the full level of concern on this issue? My constituents think that it is outrageous that, in this day and age, it is impossible to pay with a debit or credit card on the Severn bridge. At this time of economic difficulty, this is just compounding the problems of people trying to enter Wales.

Nick Ramsay: Yr wyf yn falch o glywed nad oes rhaid i’r Prif Weinidog gyflwyno sylwadau i’w Lywodraeth ei hun. Fodd bynnag, a wnaiff y Prif Weinidog bopeth a all i sicrhau bod Llywodraeth San Steffan yn ymwybodol o lefel lawn y pryder yng nghyswllt y mater hwn? Mae fy etholwyr yn meddwl ei bod yn warthus, yn yr oes sydd ohoni, ei bod yn amhosibl talu â cherdyn debyd neu gredyd ar bont Hafren. Yn y cyfnod hwn o anhawster economaidd, mae hyn yn cymhlethu problemau pobl sy’n ceisio dod i Gymru.

The First Minister: I agree. A decision needs to be made. I understand that, having set up a working group in November 2007, the report was received in October 2008. The report established that the use of credit or debit cards was feasible. The argument is simply who pays the administration charges; is it the banks or the concessionaire company? That argument should be resolvable and it should have been resolved by now. However, I will pass on the views of the Assembly to the Minister for transport.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr wyf yn cytuno. Mae angen gwneud penderfyniad. Yr wyf yn deall, ar ôl sefydlu gweithgor ym mis Tachwedd 2007, y cafwyd yr adroddiad ym mis Hydref 2008. Yr oedd yr adroddiad yn dweud bod defnyddio cardiau credyd neu ddebyd yn ddichonadwy. Y ddadl, yn syml, yw pwy sy’n talu’r costau gweinyddol; y banciau ynteu’r consesiynwr? Dylai fod modd datrys y ddadl honno a dylai fod wedi’i datrys erbyn hyn. Fodd bynnag, rhoddaf wybod i’r Gweinidog dros drafnidiaeth am safbwyntiau’r Cynulliad.

Blaenoriaethau y Flwyddyn Priorities for this Year

C10 Gareth Jones: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am ei flaenoriaethau ar gyfer y flwyddyn hon? OAQ(3)1706(FM)

Q10 Gareth Jones: Will the First Minister make a statement on his priorities for this year? OAQ(3)1706(FM)

Y Prif Weinidog: Heb amheuaeth, ein prif flaenoriaeth yw arwain Cymru drwy’r dirwasgiad presennol a pharatoi busnesau Cymru ar gyfer y cynnydd yn lefel yr economi pan ddaw. Yn y cyfamser, byddwn yn bwrw ymlaen â’n hymrwymiadau yn ‘Cymru’n Un’ ac yn gwneud defnydd llawn o’r pwerau i ddeddfu a gawsom drwy Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006.

The First Minister: Our top economic priority is to lead Wales out of the current recession and position everyone in the business community in Wales for the economic upturn when it occurs. Meanwhile, we shall press forward with our ‘One Wales’ commitments and make full use of the legislative powers that were conferred on us under the Government of Wales Act 2006.

Gareth Jones: Er bod yr adroddiad diweddar gan Estyn yn tynnu sylw at nifer o arferion da y gallwn fod yn falch ohonynt, a gytunwch fod angen, ar frys, i edrych eto ar y ffordd y dysgir y Gymraeg fel ail iaith yn ein hysgolion os ydym am wneud cynnydd tuag

Gareth Jones: Although the recent Estyn report draws attention to a number of examples of good practice that we can be proud of, do you agree that there is an urgent need to look again at the way that Welsh as a second language is taught in our schools if

30

24/02/2009

at y nod o ddod yn genedl wirioneddol ddwyieithog?

we are to move towards the aim of becoming a truly bilingual nation?

Y Prif Weinidog: Derbyniaf, 100 y cant, yr hyn yr ydych wedi canolbwyntio arno, sef bod adroddiad Estyn, yn gyffredinol, yn un eithaf calonogol o ran safon addysg yng Nghymru. Y gwendid a ganolbwyntiwyd arno oedd dysgu Cymraeg mewn ysgolion drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg. Hwyrach mai’r hyn sydd wedi digwydd—unai drwy gynneddf hollol naturiol neu oherwydd bod y Cynulliad wedi’i sefydlu—yw nad yw pobl sydd â’r Gymraeg yn iaith gyntaf naturiol bellach yn llifo i mewn i ddysgu Cymraeg mewn ysgolion sy’n dysgu’n bennaf drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg. Mae’r cynnydd yn nifer y rhieni sy’n dewis addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg i’w plant yn gwanhau’r llif hwnnw hefyd. Mae’n rhaid inni wneud rhywbeth am y sefyllfa. Nid yr ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg yn unig sydd â diddordeb mewn safon dda o addysgu Cymraeg. Pe na bai hynny’n wir, byddai hollt rhwng disgyblion yr ysgolion Cymraeg a’r rheiny sy’n dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg.

The First Minister: I accept, 100 per cent, what you have focused upon, which is the fact that the Estyn report was, in general, relatively encouraging in terms of the standards of education in Wales. The report focused on the deficiency as regards the teaching of Welsh in English-medium schools. Perhaps what has happened—either as a result of the Assembly’s inception, or because it is quite natural that this should be the case—is that people who have Welsh as their natural first language are not flowing into English-medium schools to teach Welsh. The increase in the number of parents choosing Welsh-medium education for their children also weakens that flow. We have to do something about this. It is not only the Welsh-medium schools that have an interest in high-quality Welsh-language teaching. If that were not true, there would be a gap between pupils in Welsh-medium schools and those who learn through the medium of English.

2.30 p.m.

Alun Cairns: The First Minister talks about his priorities for this year; we have heard about his priorities for almost 10 years now. The reality is very different. In Wales, you are more likely to wait longer for an operation, more likely to leave school with fewer qualifications, more likely to go to a poorly funded university, and more likely to be unemployed. That is the record of your priorities over the past 10 years. Which will you focus on to at least try to make a difference on one of these issues, because, under your administration, public services in Wales are much worse than they are in England?

Alun Cairns: Mae’r Prif Weinidog yn siarad am ei flaenoriaethau am eleni; yr ydym wedi clywed am ei flaenoriaethau am bron i 10 mlynedd erbyn hyn. Mae’r realiti yn wahanol iawn. Yng Nghymru, yr ydych yn fwy tebygol o ddisgwyl yn hirach am lawdriniaeth, yn fwy tebygol o adael yr ysgol â llai o gymwysterau, yn fwy tebygol o fynd i brifysgol sy’n cael ei hariannu’n wael, ac yn fwy tebygol o fod yn ddi-waith. Dyna record eich blaenoriaethau dros y 10 mlynedd diwethaf. Pa un y canolbwyntiwch chi arno i geisio o leiaf gwneud gwahaniaeth ar un o’r materion hyn, oherwydd, o dan eich gweinyddiaeth chi, mae gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru yn llawer gwaeth nag ydynt yn Lloegr?

The First Minister: You have given us a very good description of the Tory legacy that we inherited. What you have not done is to refer to the point that I made earlier that, despite the weakening of the economy in the recent recession, there are now 10 per cent more jobs in Wales than there were at the beginning of devolution. There are 124,000

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr ydych wedi rhoi disgrifiad da iawn inni o’r etifeddiaeth a gawsom gan y Torïaid. Yr hyn na wnaethoch mohono oedd cyfeirio at y pwynt a wneuthum yn gynharach sef, er gwaethaf y gwanhau ar yr economi oherwydd y dirwasgiad yn ddiweddar, mae 10 y cant yn fwy o swyddi yng Nghymru yn awr nag

31

24/02/2009

more people in work now than when we started almost 10 years ago. The comparable figure for the UK as a whole is 8 per cent, which shows that it has done extremely well, but, being up 10 per cent, we are at the top of the league, and not as you describe. That is where you want to take us if you ever had any chance at all of getting anywhere near the levers of power.

ydoedd ar ddechrau datganoli. Mae 124,000 yn fwy o bobl mewn gwaith yn awr na phan ddechreuasom bron i 10 mlynedd yn ôl. Y ffigur cymaradwy i’r DU gyfan yw 8 y cant, ond, gan ein bod ni ar 10 y cant, yr ydym ar frig y gynghrair, ac nid fel y disgrifiasoch chi. I’r fan honno y dylech chi ein harwain os byth y cewch chi unrhyw gyfle o gwbl i fynd yn agos at awenau grym.

Mick Bates: Perish the thought. Mick Bates: A’n gwaredo.

The Presiding Officer: Order. Where have you all been for the past week? [Laughter.]

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Ble buoch chi i gyd dros yr wythnos diwethaf? [Chwerthin.]

Mick Bates: We have been trying to beat the recession, of course. First Minister, many of the issues of the recession are beyond your control, but something that you could do to help to resolve a great deal of the rural housing problem is to release Government land so that small plots could be used to build affordable housing or even as allotments to grow vegetables. I have been asking for this for six years, and every time the Government gives me platitudes, saying that it agrees. In fact, in 2007, you had a land release protocol, but, as yet, nothing has been released. Will you undertake to ensure that my constituents in Ceinws, who have been trying for 10 years to use Government land to build affordable housing and industrial units, will get some satisfaction within the next 12 months at least? Will you undertake to ensure that the protocol works to release land to help to resolve many of the problems in our communities?

Mick Bates: Yr ydym wedi bod yn ceisio trechu’r dirwasgiad, wrth gwrs. Brif Weinidog, mae llawer o broblemau’r dirwasgiad y tu hwnt i’ch rheolaeth, ond rhywbeth y gallech ei wneud i helpu i ddatrys llawer o’r broblem tai yng nghefn gwlad yw rhyddhau tir o eiddo’r Llywodraeth fel y gellid defnyddio lleiniau bach o dir i godi tai fforddiadwy neu hyd yn oed fel rhandiroedd i dyfu llysiau. Yr wyf wedi bod yn gofyn am hyn ers chwe blynedd, a bob tro mae’r Llywodraeth yn rhoi ystrydebau imi, gan ddweud ei bod yn cytuno. Yn wir, yn 2007, yr oedd gennych brotocol rhyddhau tir, ond, hyd yma, nid oes dim wedi cael ei ryddhau. A wnewch chi ymrwymo i sicrhau y bydd f’etholwyr yng Ngheinws, sydd wedi bod yn ceisio defnyddio tir o eiddo’r Llywodraeth ers 10 mlynedd i godi tai fforddiadwy ac unedau diwydiannol, yn cael rhyw foddhad o fewn y 12 mis nesaf fan bellaf? A wnewch chi ymrwymo i sicrhau bod y protocol yn gweithio i ryddhau tir i helpu i ddatrys llawer o’r problemau yn ein cymunedau?

The First Minister: You are right to say that some of the levers in relation to correcting the recession are outwith my control; in fact, as far as I can see, they are almost outside anybody’s control. I will be raising some of these issues in a meeting with the Prime Minister tomorrow, and I am sure that he will be raising them with President Obama when he meets him the following week. Who has the ability to create the right kind of release mechanism in the banks to ensure that credit starts to flow? On rural housing, I will look into the particular issue of how early we can see the release of Forestry Commission or other publicly owned land. I am disappointed

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr ydych yn iawn i ddweud bod rhai o’r ffactorau sbarduno er mwyn cywiro’r dirwasgiad y tu hwnt i’m rheolaeth; yn wir, hyd y gwelaf, maent bron iawn y tu hwnt i reolaeth unrhyw un. Byddaf yn codi rhai o’r materion hynny mewn cyfarfod gyda Phrif Weinidog y DU yfory, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd ef yn eu codi gyda’r Arlywydd Obama pan fydd yn cwrdd ag ef yr wythnos ddilynol. Pwy sydd â’r gallu i greu’r math iawn o fecanwaith rhyddhau yn y banciau i sicrhau bod credyd yn dechrau llifo? O ran tai gwledig, byddaf yn ymchwilio i fater penodol pa mor fuan y gallwn weld rhyddhau tir o eiddo’r Comisiwn

32

24/02/2009

if what you say is true; you are right to refer to the length of time it has been since Carwyn Jones, as I think it was, made the relevant announcement some years ago. There should have been progress by now.

Coedwigaeth neu dir arall sydd mewn perchenogaeth gyhoeddus. Yr wyf yn siomedig os yw’r hyn a ddywedwch yn wir; yr ydych yn iawn i gyfeirio at y cyfnod o amser a aeth heibio ers i Carwyn Jones, credaf mai ef ydoedd, wneud y cyhoeddiad perthnasol rai blynyddoedd yn ôl. Dylem fod wedi gweld cynnydd erbyn hyn.

Datganiad a Chyhoeddiad BusnesBusiness Statement and Announcement

The Counsel General and Leader of the House (Carwyn Jones): I have one change to report to this week’s planned Government business. Today’s statement on tourism has been postponed until the next meeting. In its place, Jane Davidson, the Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing, will be making a statement on Fairtrade Fortnight. However, business for the next three weeks is as set out in the business statement and announcement, which can be found in the agenda papers available to Members electronically.

Y Cwnsler Cyffredinol ac Arweinydd y Tŷ (Carwyn Jones): Mae gennyf un newid i’w gyhoeddi i fusnes y Llywodraeth fel y’i cynlluniwyd ar gyfer yr wythnos hon. Mae datganiad heddiw ar dwristiaeth wedi cael ei ohirio tan y cyfarfod nesaf. Yn ei le, bydd Jane Davidson, y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Thai, yn gwneud datganiad ar Bythefnos Masnach Deg. Fodd bynnag, mae’r busnes am y tair wythnos nesaf fel y’i nodwyd yn y datganiad a’r cyhoeddiad busnes, sydd i’w gweld yn y papurau agenda sydd ar gael i’r Aelodau yn electronig.

Alun Cairns: In view of the strong statement made by the chief constable of South Wales Police and the Assembly Government’s responsibility for the highways in Wales—particularly for trunk roads, but most importantly for the M4 and motorway networks in Wales—what plans does the Assembly Government have to table a motion for a debate so that these vital funding issues, which must be settled by April, can be discussed in order to inform decision makers how funding should be settled?

Alun Cairns: Ac ystyried y datganiad cryf a wnaethpwyd gan brif gwnstabl Heddlu De Cymru a chyfrifoldeb Llywodraeth y Cynulliad am y priffyrdd yng Nghymru—yn enwedig am y cefnffyrdd, ond yn fwyaf pwysig am yr M4 a’r rhwydweithiau traffyrdd yng Nghymru—pa gynlluniau sydd gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i gyflwyno cynnig am ddadl fel y gellir trafod y materion cyllido tyngedfennol hyn, y mae rhaid eu setlo erbyn mis Ebrill, er mwyn helpu’r rhai sy’n gwneud y penderfyniadau i benderfynu ar y setliad cyllido?

Carwyn Jones: I do not think that I can go beyond the answer given by the First Minister. It is a matter for the police authority to set the budget. It is a matter for the chief constable to operate within that budget. It would be unfortunate if, for some reason, the police were not carrying out their statutory duty. I trust that it will not come to that.

Carwyn Jones: Ni chredaf y gallaf fynd ymhellach na’r ateb a roddwyd gan y Prif Weinidog. Mater i’r awdurdod heddlu yw gosod y gyllideb. Mater i’r prif gwnstabl yw gweithredu o fewn y gyllideb honno. Byddai’n anffodus pa na bai’r heddlu, am ryw reswm, yn cyflawni ei ddyletswydd statudol. Hyderaf na ddaw hi i hynny.

Joyce Watson: Has the Leader of the House received a request from the leader of the Welsh Conservatives recently asking for questions to the First Minister to be moved to

Joyce Watson: A yw Arweinydd y Tŷ wedi derbyn cais gan arweinydd y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn ddiweddar yn gofyn am i gwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog gael eu symud i

33

24/02/2009

a Wednesday? I understand that, over the weekend, David Cameron invited the Scottish Tory leader, Annabel Goldie, to attend shadow Cabinet meetings in London on Tuesday afternoons. This was nakedly and deliberately designed to exclude Welsh representation from the shadow Cabinet table, since Mr Cameron would know full well that such meetings clash with questions to the First Minister here. What consideration, if any, have you, as Leader of the House, given to helping the Welsh Tory leader to deal with this example of social exclusion at the top of the party?

ddydd Mercher? Deallaf fod David Cameron, dros y penwythnos, wedi gwahodd arweinydd y Torïaid yn yr Alban, Annabel Goldie, i fynychu cyfarfodydd Cabinet yr wrthblaid yn Llundain ar brynhawniau Mawrth. Bwriadwyd hyn yn amlwg ac yn fwriadol i allgáu cynrychiolaeth o Gymru oddi wrth fwrdd Cabinet yr wrthblaid, gan y byddai Mr Cameron yn gwybod yn iawn y byddai cyfarfodydd o’r fath yn gwrthdaro â chwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog yma. Pa ystyriaeth ydych chi, fel Arweinydd y Tŷ, wedi’i rhoi, os rhoddwyd ystyriaeth o gwbl, i helpu arweinydd Torïaid Cymru i ddelio â’r enghraifft hon o allgáu ar frig y blaid?

The Presiding Officer: Order. The Leader of the House has no responsibility for the Welsh Conservatives.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Nid oes gan Arweinydd y Tŷ unrhyw gyfrifoldeb o gwbl am y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig.

Carwyn Jones: I have been asked whether a request has been made to me. I can confirm that a request has not been made. However, I am sure that there are many of us in this Chamber who would offer support to Nick Bourne in his attempts to deal firmly with the anti-Welsh Members of Parliament and wannabe Members of Parliament that he has in his own divided party. I have great sympathy with him, given that it seems that Scotland is being treated far more favourably than Wales by the Tory party. Of course, that is something that we have been used to over the past 20 or 30 years.

Carwyn Jones: Gofynnwyd imi a oes cais wedi cael ei wneud imi. Gallaf gadarnhau nad oes cais wedi cael ei wneud. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn siŵr fod llawer ohonom yn y Siambr hon a fyddai’n cynnig cefnogaeth i Nick Bourne yn ei ymdrechion i ddelio’n gadarn â’r Aelodau Seneddol gwrth-Gymreig a’r Aelodau Seneddol isio-bod sydd ganddo yn ei blaid ranedig. Mae gennyf lawer iawn o gydymdeimlad ag ef, ac ystyried bod yr Alban yn ôl pob golwg yn cael ei thrin yn llawer mwy ffafriol na Chymru gan y blaid Dorïaidd. Wrth gwrs, mae hynny’n rhywbeth yr ydym wedi arfer ag ef dros yr 20 neu’r 30 mlynedd diwethaf.

Kirsty Williams: Will the Leader of the House schedule time for his colleague, the Deputy First Minister, Ieuan Wyn Jones, to make a statement on the future of the community transport concessionary travel initiative? This project was set up by the previous Labour Government, which recognised the value of providing transport to vulnerable groups in rural areas. The Leader of the House will know that the pilot project is due to end in March, but we have not had a decision from Ieuan Wyn Jones regarding the future of the project. This has led to people being issued with redundancy notices and to the project clients not knowing how they will access transport following the end of March. Would you agree that this is a shabby way to treat those members of staff and client groups and that we need a statement from the Deputy

Kirsty Williams: A wnaiff Arweinydd y Tŷ drefnu amser i’w gyd-Weinidog, y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog, Ieuan Wyn Jones, wneud datganiad ar ddyfodol y cynllun trafnidiaeth gymunedol teithio rhatach? Sefydlwyd y prosiect hwn gan y Llywodraeth Lafur flaenorol, a oedd yn cydnabod gwerth darparu trafnidiaeth i grwpiau sy’n agored i niwed mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Bydd Arweinydd y Tŷ’n gwybod bod y prosiect peilot i fod i ddarfod ym mis Mawrth, ac nid ydym wedi cael penderfyniad eto gan Ieuan Wyn Jones ynglŷn â dyfodol y prosiect. Mae hyn wedi arwain at roi rhybuddion dileu swyddi i bobl ac nid yw cleientiaid y prosiect yn gwybod sut y gallant gael gafael ar drafnidiaeth ar ôl diwedd mis Mawrth. A fyddech yn cytuno bod hon yn ffordd sâl o drin yr aelodau staff a’r grwpiau cleientiaid

34

24/02/2009

First Minister as quickly as possible, so that he can be scrutinised on the findings of an evaluation project and on his intentions with regard to continuing to provide transport to vulnerable groups in rural areas?

hynny a bod angen datganiad gan y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog arnom cyn gyflymed â phosibl, fel y gellir craffu ar gasgliadau prosiect gwerthuso ac ar ei fwriadau ef o ran parhau i ddarparu trafnidiaeth i grwpiau sy’n agored i niwed mewn ardaloedd gwledig?

Carwyn Jones: I can inform Kirsty that an evaluation has been completed. The report looks to present several options, which are being considered carefully by Government. A decision will be made soon and will be communicated to Members shortly.

Carwyn Jones: Gallaf hysbysu Kirsty fod gwerthusiad wedi cael ei gwblhau. Mae’r adroddiad yn ceisio cyflwyno amryw o opsiynau, sy’n cael eu hystyried yn ofalus gan y Llywodraeth. Gwneir penderfyniad yn fuan a chaiff ei gyfleu i’r Aelodau cyn bo hir.

Bethan Jenkins: Following Gordon Brown’s comments this week, which is eating disorders awareness week, that treatment for eating disorders is sometimes provided late, when things have gone too far, the eating disorders charity, Beat, published hospital admission figures that revealed a disturbing rise in the number of people admitted with anorexia. Would it therefore be possible, in light of such evidence, for the Government to make time for a debate on eating disorders services in Wales?

Bethan Jenkins: Yn dilyn sylwadau Gordon Brown yr wythnos hon, sy’n wythnos ymwybyddiaeth o anhwylderau bwyta, fod triniaeth ar gyfer anhwylderau bwyta weithiau’n cael ei darparu’n rhy hwyr, pan fydd pethau wedi mynd yn rhy bell, cyhoeddodd yr elusen dros anhwylderau bwyta, Beat, ffigurau derbyn cleifion i’r ysbyty a oedd yn dangos cynnydd brawychus yn nifer y bobl sy’n cael eu derbyn i’r ysbyty gydag anorecsia. A fyddai’n bosibl, felly, yng ngoleuni tystiolaeth o’r fath, i’r Llywodraeth ddarparu amser ar gyfer dadl ar wasanaethau anhwylderau bwyta yng Nghymru?

Carwyn Jones: It would be difficult to find time for a debate, although it is an extremely important issue, as I am sure that all of us here would concede. If you raise the matter with the Minister for Health and Social Services, I am sure that she will provide you with information, either in person or through correspondence. The issue that you raise is important, and if it is the case that the statistics show that more and more people are being affected by eating disorders, that would be a cause for concern. I am sure that the Minister for health would be able to provide you with full information on that.

Carwyn Jones: Byddai’n anodd canfod amser ar gyfer dadl, er ei fod yn fater eithriadol o bwysig, fel yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai pawb ohonom yma yn cytuno. Os codwch chi’r mater gyda’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, yr wyf yn siŵr y gwnaiff ddarparu gwybodaeth ichi, un ai’n bersonol neu drwy ohebiaeth. Mae’r mater a godwch yn bwysig, ac os yw’n wir fod yr ystadegau’n dangos bod anhwylderau bwyta’n effeithio ar fwy a mwy o bobl, byddai hynny’n destun pryder. Yr wyf yn siŵr y gallai’r Gweinidog dros iechyd ddarparu gwybodaeth lawn ichi ar hynny.

Jonathan Morgan: Will the Leader of the House schedule a debate in Government time on the state of services in Wales for people who have suffered a stroke? The Leader of the House will be aware that Dr Tony Rudd has concluded a thorough assessment of services in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. His conclusion is that services in Wales were scandalously bad. In fact, they were the worst services in any part of the United Kingdom. Will the Assembly

Jonathan Morgan: A wnaiff Arweinydd y Tŷ gynnwys dadl yn amser y Llywodraeth ar gyflwr y gwasanaethau yng Nghymru i bobl sydd wedi cael strôc? Bydd Arweinydd y Tŷ yn ymwybodol fod Dr Tony Rudd wedi cwblhau asesiad trylwyr o’r gwasanaethau yng Nghymru, Lloegr a Gogledd Iwerddon. Ei gasgliad yw bod y gwasanaethau yng Nghymru yn gywilyddus o ddrwg. Yn wir, dyna’r gwasanaethau gwaethaf mewn unrhyw ran o’r Deyrnas Unedig. A wnaiff

35

24/02/2009

Government schedule a debate on this important matter? It would be irresponsible if the Minister for Health and Social Services and the Government were to simply ignore the issue.

Llywodraeth y Cynulliad gynnwys dadl ar y mater pwysig hwn? Byddai’n anghyfrifol petai’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a’r Llywodraeth i wneud dim ond anwybyddu’r mater.

Carwyn Jones: I am sure that the Government will not be in a position to ignore any points that you make, because you have the opportunity to raise them here, in questions, and in correspondence. Bearing that in mind, I trust that you will do so.

Carwyn Jones: Yr wyf yn siŵr na fydd y Llywodraeth mewn sefyllfa i anwybyddu unrhyw bwyntiau a wnewch, oherwydd mae gennych gyfle i’w codi yma, drwy gwestiynau, a drwy ohebiaeth. Gyda hynny mewn golwg, hyderaf y gwnewch chi hynny.

2.40 p.m.

Eleanor Burnham: Cwestiwn arall ynghylch dyfodol trafnidiaeth gymunedol a’r tocynnau mantais sydd gennyf. Yr ydym i gyd yn pryderu am hyn. Mae pobl wedi siarad gyda fi yn ddiweddar am Gonwy fel esiampl o’r hyn a fydd yn digwydd. Darparwyd gwasanaeth yno drwy’r gronfa hon, ac, wrth iddi ddod i ben, mae’n achosi problemau ofnadwy i bobl fregus, pobl hŷn a phobl anabl ac ati. Yr ydym yn cymryd y gallu i deithio o gwmpas i weld y meddyg neu’r deintydd yn ganiataol. Mae’n annerbyniol y bydd y bobl hŷn a bregus hyn o dan anfantais ofnadwy. Gofynnais gwestiwn am hyn i’r Gweinidog yn y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal y bore yma, gan fy mod yn poeni am hyn, fel yr ydym i gyd—a byddwn i gyd yn hŷn yn fuan. Dylem wneud rhywbeth am hyn yn awr. Felly, yr wyf yn pwyso arnoch, fel y gwnaed ynghynt gan ein harweinydd, Kirsty, i weithredu o ran y mater difrifol a phwysig hwn.

Eleanor Burnham: I have another question about the future of community transport and smartcards. We are all concerned by this. Recently, people have spoken to me about Conwy as an example of what will happen. A service was provided there through this fund, and, as it comes to an end, it is causing terrible problems for vulnerable people, older people and disabled people, among others. We take the ability to travel around to see the doctor or the dentist for granted. It is unacceptable that these older and vulnerable people will be disadvantaged so severely. I asked a question about this to the Minister in the Committee on Equal Opportunities this morning, because I am concerned by this, as we all are—we will all be old before long. We should do something about this now. Therefore, I urge you, as our leader, Kirsty, did earlier, to take action on this grave and important issue.

Carwyn Jones: Mae’n wir i ddweud y bydd Kirsty’n gorfod aros tipyn o amser eto i fod yn hen. Fodd bynnag, mae hefyd yn wir i ddweud bod pawb yn y Siambr yn gobeithio mynd yn hen. Rhoddais ateb i Kirsty Williams ar y mater hwn, felly cyfeiriaf yr Aelod at yr ateb hwnnw.

Carwyn Jones: It is true to say that Kirsty will have to wait quite a while yet before she is old. However, it is also true to say that everyone in the Chamber hopes to grow old. I responded to Kirsty Williams on this issue, and so I refer the Member to that answer.

Brynle Williams: A oes amser i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth wneud datganiad i’r Siambr ar sefyllfa’r A55? Yr wyf yn cael cwyn ar ôl cwyn bod y ffordd yn cael ei chodi neu fod rhyw waith yn cael ei wneud yng nghanol y ffordd. Mae anawsterau o hyd ar hyd yr A55. Mae dau ar hyn o bryd, o Lanelwy i ben y Rhuallt—dim ond 3 milltir

Brynle Williams: Is there time for the Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport to make a statement to the Chamber on the position with the A55? I have received complaint after complaint about the road being opened or some other works being undertaken on the road. There are always problems on the A55. There are two works under way now, from St Asaph to

36

24/02/2009

sydd rhyngddynt ac mae dwy dagfa yno yn awr. A allwn gael datganiad a fydd yn rhoi rhyw amcan o bryd fydd y gwaith hwn yn darfod? Mae wedi mynd ymlaen ac ymlaen, ac nid yw’n amser hir ers inni gael trafferth yn Llanfairfechan, lle oedd y ffordd wedi cau i un lôn yn unig. Mae hyn yn creu anawsterau i bobl a busnesau. Hoffwn, os yw’n bosibl, i’r Gweinidog roi datganiad ar hyn yn y Siambr.

Rhuallt Hill—there are only 3 miles between them and there are two bottlenecks there now. Could we have a statement giving an estimate of when this work will come to an end? It has gone on and on, and it is not long since we had difficulties at Llanfairfechan, where there was only a single lane. This causes problems for people and businesses alike. If possible, I want the Minister to give a statement on it in the Chamber.

Carwyn Jones: Credaf ei fod yn gywir i ddweud ei fod yn bosibl edrych ar safle we’r Llywodraeth er mwyn darganfod pryd ac am ba hyd y bydd gwaith yn digwydd ar heolydd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Os nad yw hynny’n gywir, mae’n bosibl gofyn cwestiwn am amserlen y gwaith ar yr A55 i’r Gweinidog.

Carwyn Jones: I think that I am right in saying that you can look at the Government’s website to ascertain when any roadworks will be carried out on Assembly Government roads, and what their duration will be. If that is incorrect, you can always ask the Minister a question about the timescale for the A55 roadworks.

Mick Bates: I have been contacted by a great many deeply concerned people, many of them disabled, regarding the threat to services in our deep rural communities. Those services are provided by many volunteers: for example, dial-a-ride services from Newtown. As two of my colleagues have mentioned, those services are under threat, which threatens the rights of many who live in rural Wales, because of your Government’s inability to make an announcement that it will provide the funding for these services to continue. I heard your rather trite response to my leader and Eleanor Burnham that there will be a statement, but I wish that you would take on board the urgency of the need for this statement and to provide the funding to continue to provide what is an essential and life-saving service in rural Wales.

Mick Bates: Mae nifer fawr o bobl sy’n pryderu’n ofnadwy, llawer ohonynt yn anabl, wedi cysylltu â mi ynglŷn â’r bygythiad i wasanaethau i gymunedau ym mherfeddion cefn gwlad. Mae’r gwasanaethau hynny’n cael eu darparu gan lawer o wirfoddolwyr: er enghraifft, gwasanaethau galw’r gyrrwr o’r Drenewydd. Fel y mae dau o’m cyd-Aelodau wedi crybwyll, mae’r gwasanaethau hynny o dan fygythiad, ac mae hynny’n fygythiad i hawliau llawer o bobl sy’n byw yng nghefn gwlad Cymru, oherwydd anallu eich Llywodraeth i gyhoeddi y bydd yn darparu’r cyllid er mwyn i’r gwasanaethau hyn barhau. Clywais eich ymateb digon tila i’m harweinydd ac i Eleanor Burnham y ceir datganiad, ond yr wyf am ichi sylweddoli mor daer yw’r angen am y datganiad hwn a darparu’r cyllid fel y bydd gwasanaeth sy’n un hanfodol ac yn achub bywydau yng nghefn gwlad Cymru yn parhau i gael ei ddarparu.

Carwyn Jones: You made the same points as Eleanor Burnham and Kirsty Williams. I do not want to repeat my answer, but I will add that, if you look at the ‘One Wales’ commitments, you will see that there is a commitment to invest in community transport services. As I said before, the Deputy First Minister will set out how we plan to do this in the national transport plan.

Carwyn Jones: Gwnaethoch yr un pwyntiau ag Eleanor Burnham a Kirsty Williams. Nid wyf am ailadrodd fy ateb, ond ychwanegaf, os edrychwch chi ar ymrwymiadau ‘Cymru’n Un’, y gwelwch fod ymrwymiad i fuddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau trafnidiaeth gymunedol. Fel y dywedais o’r blaen, bydd y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn dangos sut y bwriadwn wneud hyn yn y cynllun trafnidiaeth cenedlaethol.

Jenny Randerson: I have several matters Jenny Randerson: Mae gennyf nifer o

37

24/02/2009

that I would like to be raised in Plenary. First, you will be well aware that, sadly, last week, there was an announcement of a considerable number of job losses in both Cardiff and Newport because of the problems at Panasonic. There have been other announcements of job losses since we last met here, and it would be useful if we were to have the opportunity of an oral ministerial statement so that we could ask the Deputy First Minister about a number of issues from our various perspectives in relation to the continuing problems associated with the fallout from the credit crunch and the economic downturn.

faterion yr hoffwn iddynt gael eu codi mewn Cyfarfod Llawn. Yn gyntaf, byddwch yn ymwybodol iawn y cyhoeddwyd, yn anffodus, yr wythnos diwethaf, nifer sylweddol o golledion swyddi yng Nghaerdydd a Chasnewydd oherwydd y problemau yn Panasonic. Cyhoeddwyd colledion swyddi eraill ers inni gyfarfod yma ddiwethaf, a byddai’n fuddiol pe caem gyfle i gael datganiad llafar gan y Gweinidog er mwyn inni allu holi’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog ynglŷn â nifer o faterion o’n hamrywiol safbwyntiau yng nghyswllt y problemau parhaus sy’n gysylltiedig â chanlyniadau’r wasgfa gredyd a’r dirywiad economaidd.

The second point that I want to ask you about is the postponement of the debate on tourism. Tourism is a vital part of the Welsh economy, and the tourism industry in Wales is not doing well in comparison with that in the rest of the UK. The downturn last year was worse in Wales than it was in the rest of the UK. I am concerned that the debate has apparently been postponed until after Easter. Perhaps you could give us some firm information on when we will get the opportunity to question the Minister concerned on tourism.

Yr ail bwynt yr hoffwn eich holi yn ei gylch yw gohirio’r ddadl ar dwristiaeth. Mae twristiaeth yn rhan hollbwysig o economi Cymru, ac nid yw’r diwydiant twristiaeth yng Nghymru yn gwneud yn dda o’i gymharu â gweddill y DU. Yr oedd y dirywiad y llynedd yn waeth yng Nghymru nag yr oedd yng ngweddill y DU. Pryderaf fod y ddadl, yn ôl pob tebyg, wedi’i gohirio tan ar ôl y Pasg. Efallai y gallech roi rhywfaint o wybodaeth gadarn inni ynghylch pa bryd y cawn gyfle i holi’r Gweinidog dan sylw am dwristiaeth.

My third point relates to the report issued today on contaminated blood products. You may be aware that this is an issue that I have raised on numerous occasions here, and I have been consistent in calling for our own Government inquiry on the subject, with a view to ensuring the fair treatment of those who have contracted diseases as a result of contaminated blood products. The report out today, which deals with the issue on a UK-wide basis, is seriously critical of the Government at the time and, indeed, of Governments ever since. The relevant issues are being taken up in Northern Ireland and Scotland. Do you agree that it is time that the Minister for Health and Social Services here took our share of responsibility and dealt with the issues stemming from the problems that occurred so many years ago? I would be grateful if she would issue a written statement at the very least, if not come here with an oral statement, on the findings of that report.

Mae fy nhrydydd pwynt yn ymwneud â’r adroddiad a gyhoeddwyd heddiw ar gynhyrchion gwaed halogedig. Efallai y byddwch yn ymwybodol bod hwn yn fater yr wyf wedi’i godi yma ar nifer o achlysuron, ac yr wyf wedi bod yn gyson wrth alw am ymchwiliad gan ein Llywodraeth i’r pwnc, gyda’r bwriad o sicrhau bod y rheini sydd wedi dal afiechydon yn sgil cynhyrchion gwaed halogedig yn cael eu trin yn deg. Mae’r adroddiad a gyhoeddwyd heddiw, sy’n ymdrin â’r mater ar lefel y DU gyfan, yn feirniadol tu hwnt o’r Llywodraeth ar y pryd ac, yn wir, o Lywodraethau ers hynny. Rhoddir sylw i’r materion perthnasol yng Ngogledd Iwerddon ac yn yr Alban. A gytunwch ei bod yn bryd i’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn y Llywodraeth hon ysgwyddo ein rhan o’r cyfrifoldeb a delio â’r materion sy’n deillio o’r problemau a ddigwyddodd flynyddoedd maith yn ôl? Byddwn yn ddiolchgar petai’n cyhoeddi datganiad ysgrifenedig, o leiaf, os nad yn dod yma a gwneud datganiad ar lafar, ynghylch canfyddiadau’r adroddiad hwnnw.

38

24/02/2009

Carwyn Jones: First, on job losses, the Deputy First Minister is available to answer oral questions in the Chamber and written questions. We recently had a debate on the economic situation, in which Members had the opportunity to raise such issues.

Carwyn Jones: Yn gyntaf, ynghylch colli swyddi, mae’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog ar gael i ateb cwestiynau ar lafar yn y Siambr a chwestiynau ysgrifenedig. Yn ddiweddar, cawsom ddadl ynghylch y sefyllfa economaidd, lle cafodd yr Aelodau gyfle i godi materion o’r fath.

Secondly, on tourism, it is a statement rather than a debate that has been postponed, and that has been done to allow us to insert some legislation into the Assembly’s programme. That is not to say that tourism is not taken seriously by the Assembly Government, because it is. It is not just one of the major areas of economic development in Wales, but perhaps the major area. We will be looking to insert that statement into the Assembly’s programme as soon as possible.

Yn ail, ynghylch twristiaeth, datganiad, yn hytrach na dadl, sydd wedi’i ohirio, a gwnaethpwyd hynny er mwyn caniatáu inni osod rhywfaint o ddeddfwriaeth yn rhaglen y Cynulliad. Nid yw hynny’n golygu nad yw Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ystyried twristiaeth yn ddifrifol, oherwydd mae’n gwneud hynny. Nid dim ond un o’r prif feysydd datblygu economaidd yng Nghymru yw hwn, ond efallai’r prif faes. Byddwn yn ceisio gosod y datganiad hwnnw yn rhaglen y Cynulliad cyn gynted â phosibl.

On the report on contaminated blood products, it must be disturbing to have received such products some time ago, when screening was non-existent and when the HIV infection had not been widely identified. I am also aware, as you are, of the issues that have been raised in the meantime. Therefore, I will refer the matter to the Minister for Health and Social Services, and ask her what response she wishes to give to your request.

Ynghylch yr adroddiad ar gynhyrchion gwaed halogedig, rhaid bod meddwl am gael cynhyrchion o’r fath gryn amser yn ôl, pan nad oedd sgrinio ar gael a phan nad oedd yr haint HIV wedi’i adnabod yn eang, yn peri pryder. Yr wyf hefyd yn ymwybodol, fel yr ydych chithau, o’r materion sydd wedi codi yn y cyfamser. Felly, byddaf yn cyfeirio’r mater at y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, ac yn gofyn iddi pa ymateb yr hoffai ei roi i’ch cais.

Datganiad am y Grŵp Gorchwyl ar yr Iaith Gymraeg ym Maes Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol

Statement on the Welsh Language in Health and Social Services Task Group

The Deputy Minister for Social Services (Gwenda Thomas): I am grateful for the opportunity to make a statement on the work of the task group on the Welsh language in health and social services. It was established in 2000 in response to concerns about the lack of health services available for patients and their families through the medium of Welsh.

Y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Wasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Gwenda Thomas): Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cyfle i wneud datganiad ar waith y grŵp gorchwyl ynghylch yr iaith Gymraeg ym maes iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Fe’i sefydlwyd yn 2000 mewn ymateb i bryderon ynghylch prinder gwasanaethau iechyd a oedd ar gael i gleifion a’u teuluoedd drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.

Every day, health and social services professionals across Wales work hard to provide high-quality services. To many families, receiving high-quality care means having the ability to use services through the medium of Welsh, because they feel more at

Bob dydd, bydd gweithwyr proffesiynol ym maes iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol ledled Cymru yn gweithio’n galed i ddarparu gwasanaethau o safon uchel. I lawer o deuluoedd, mae cael gofal o safon uchel yn golygu bod â’r gallu i ddefnyddio

39

24/02/2009

ease in their own language. gwasanaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, oherwydd maent yn teimlo’n fwy cyfforddus yn eu hiaith eu hunain.

Gwn fod derbyn gwasanaethau iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn Gymraeg yn fwy na mater o gydraddoldeb yn unig; mae hefyd yn hollbwysig wrth wneud asesiad clinigol a rhoi triniaeth. Felly, yr wyf i a’r Gweinidog am gryfhau’r ddarpariaeth yn y sector i deuluoedd sy’n siarad Cymraeg.

I know that having access to health and social services through the medium of Welsh is not just a matter of equality; it can also be crucial to clinical assessment and treatment. That is why the Minister and I are committed to strengthening the provision for Welsh-speaking families in the sector.

2.50 p.m.

Mae llawer o bobl yn teimlo’n ansicr iawn pan fyddant yn dod i gysylltiad â’r sector, ac nid ydynt yn ddigon hyderus i ofyn am wasanaeth Cymraeg. Oherwydd hyn, teimlaf yn gryf fod y cyfrifoldeb i sicrhau gwasanaethau yn y Gymraeg yn cwympo ar ysgwyddau’r sawl sy’n darparu’r gwasanaeth ac nid ar y defnyddiwr. Sefydlwyd y tasglu i roi arweiniad a chyfeiriad i’r gwasanaeth ac i sicrhau fod gwasanaethau drwy gyfrwng eu dewis iaith ar gael i ddefnyddwyr yn gynyddol, ble bynnag y maent yn byw yng Nghymru.

Many people feel very vulnerable when they come into contact with the sector, and do not feel confident to ask for services in Welsh. Given that, I feel strongly that the responsibility for making sure that people are cared for through the medium of Welsh must rest with service providers and not with the user. The task group was established to provide leadership and direction to the service and to make sure that, as part of the wider drive to promote better health and social services, language choice becomes a reality for Welsh-speaking people, wherever they live in Wales.

Mae aelodaeth y tasglu yn cynrychioli trawsdoriad o’r gwasanaeth: cyrff statudol a gwirfoddol, darparwyr a rheoleiddwyr. Mae aelodau’r tasglu yn cydnabod bod llawer o waith i’w wneud ac felly penderfynwyd blaenoriaethu’r gwaith ar agweddau personol ar ofal, sef profiadau pobl sy’n defnyddio gwasanaethau, ac ar bedwar grŵp blaenoriaeth sy’n arbennig o fregus, sef plant a phobl ifanc, pobl hŷn, defnyddwyr gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl, a phobl sydd ag anableddau dysgu. Mae’r tasglu hefyd wedi nodi pedair thema allweddol ar gyfer y gwaith: cryfhau gwasanaethau dwyieithog, rhoi arweiniad, datblygu gweithlu dwyieithog, a hwyluso newid. Hoffwn sôn am rai o’r datblygiadau yn y meysydd hyn.

Membership of the task group is drawn from a broad cross-section of the service: statutory and voluntary organisations, providers and regulators. Members of the task group recognise that there is much to do, and so it has decided to prioritise its work on the personal aspects of care, namely people’s experience when using services, and on four priority groups, because they are particularly vulnerable, namely children and young people, older people, mental health service users, and people with learning disabilities. The task group has identified four key themes for its work: strengthening bilingual services, providing leadership, developing a bilingual workforce, and facilitating change. I will mention some developments in these areas.

Dangosodd adolygiad gan Fwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg bod gwasanaethau dwyieithog yn cryfhau os oedd ymddiriedolaeth iechyd yn cyflogi swyddog iaith Gymraeg. Oherwydd hyn, gofynnodd y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol i bob ymddiriedolaeth benodi swyddog iaith Gymraeg llawn amser ac i’r byrddau iechyd

A review by the Welsh Language Board showed that bilingual services had been strengthened where NHS trusts had invested in a Welsh language officer to work with front-line staff. Based on that evidence, the Minister for Health and Social Services asked all trusts to appoint a full-time Welsh language officer and asked local health

40

24/02/2009

lleol sefydlu unedau iaith Gymraeg rhanbarthol yn seiliedig ar y model llwyddiannus a oedd yn bodoli’n barod yn y gogledd. Mae peth pryder y byddai lleihau nifer y cyrff yn y gwasanaeth iechyd yn arwain at leihau nifer y swyddogion iaith. Yr wyf yn falch o gyhoeddi heddiw fy mod i a’r Gweinidog wedi cymryd camau i sicrhau na fydd ailstrwythuro’r gwasanaeth iechyd yn cael effaith andwyol ar ein nod o wella gwasanaethau Cymraeg. Mae’r Gweinidog wedi hysbysu prif weithredwr y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru ei bod am gadw’r lefel bresennol o swyddogion iaith yn y gwasanaeth iechyd. Dyna arwydd clir o ymrwymiad y Llywodraeth i gryfhau’r gwasanaethau sydd ar gael i siaradwyr Cymraeg a’u teuluoedd.

boards to establish regional Welsh language units based on the successful model already operating in north Wales. There is some concern that reducing the number of health service bodies will lead to a reduction in the number of language officers. I am pleased to announce today that the Minister and I have taken action to ensure that the initiative to strengthen Welsh-language services is not adversely affected by the NHS reconfiguration. The Minister has informed the chief executive of the NHS in Wales that the current capacity of Welsh language officers in the NHS in Wales must be safeguarded. This is a clear sign of this Government’s commitment to strengthening the services available to Welsh speakers and their families.

Rhan bwysig o waith y tasglu yw sicrhau bod yr Adran Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn rhoi arweiniad ar y mater hwn drwy bolisïau a fframweithiau cenedlaethol. Enghraifft ddiweddar o hyn yw’r gwaith a wneir ar y safonau gofal iechyd a’r canllawiau technegol er mwyn cryfhau eu dimensiwn o ran y Gymraeg. Yr wyf hefyd wedi cael trafodaeth gydag Autism Cymru er mwyn sicrhau bod y Gymraeg yn cael ei phrif-ffrydio yn y strategaeth awtistiaeth.

An important element of the task group’s work is ensuring that the Department for Health and Social Services shows leadership on this matter through national policies and frameworks. A recent example of this is the work being undertaken on the healthcare standards and technical guides, in order to strengthen their Welsh-language dimension. I have also had discussions with Autism Cymru to ensure that Welsh-language considerations are mainstreamed into the autism strategy.

Mae’r tasglu wedi gofyn i’r ddwy arolygiaeth ddatblygu canllawiau o ran arolygu gwasanaethau Cymraeg yn y sector. Mae gwaith pwysig hefyd yn mynd yn ei flaen i brif-ffrydio’r Gymraeg mewn rhaglenni cyfrifiadurol fel y cofnod iechyd unigol.

The inspectorates play a key role in assessing the quality of Welsh-language services. The task group has asked the two inspectorates to develop guidance on inspecting Welsh-language services in the sector. There is also important work going on to mainstream the Welsh language into information technology programmes such as the individual patient record.

Gwn o brofiad bod gair o gysur yn Gymraeg gan nyrs neu ofalwr yn gallu gwneud byd o wahaniaeth i lawer o deuluoedd. Am y rheswm hwnnw, mae’r tasglu yn gweld cryfhau sgiliau iaith y gweithlu yn un o’i brif flaenoriaethau. Nododd adroddiad Pwyllgor Iechyd, Lles a Llywodraeth Leol y Cynulliad ar gynllunio’r gweithlu yn y maes iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol fod angen cymryd camau i gynyddu nifer y staff sy’n gallu siarad Cymraeg yn y gwasanaeth iechyd. Mae’r tasglu yn rhoi sylw i hwn, a bydd yn edrych ar dair elfen: yr angen i ystyried sgiliau iaith

I know from experience that a word of comfort in Welsh from a nurse or a carer can make a world of difference to many families. That is why the task group has identified strengthening the Welsh-language skills of the workforce as one of its key priorities. That issue was highlighted by the Assembly’s Health, Wellbeing and Local Government Committee’s report into workforce planning in health and social care, which recommended that action be taken to increase the number of Welsh-speaking staff employed in the NHS. I am pleased to report

41

24/02/2009

Gymraeg wrth recriwtio staff; yr angen i ystyried sgiliau iaith fel rhan o’r broses o gynllunio’r gweithlu; a’r angen i gryfhau’r dimensiwn ieithyddol mewn hyfforddiant cyn-gofrestru. Bydd yr Asiantaeth Genedlaethol Arweiniad ac Arloesoldeb dros Ofal Iechyd yn cynnal adolygiad o’r addysg a gynigir yn Gymraeg yn y sector iechyd. Datblygiad sydd i’w groesawu yw’r cyhoeddiad diweddar y bydd Prifysgol Bangor yn cynnal cwrs therapi iaith a lleferydd dwyieithog i ôl-raddedigion. Mae’r tasglu hefyd wedi gofyn i Fwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg i ddatblygu canllawiau ar gynllunio sgiliau dwyieithog i’r gwasanaeth.

that the task group is taking up that issue and will be looking at three factors: the need to consider Welsh-language skills when recruiting staff; the need to consider Welsh-language skills as part of the workforce-planning process; and the need to strengthen the language dimension of pre-registration training. The National Leadership and Innovation Agency for Healthcare will be undertaking a review of the Welsh-medium education provided in the health sector. A welcome development is the recent announcement that Bangor University will be running a two-year postgraduate bilingual speech and language therapy course. The task group has also asked the Welsh Language Board to develop guidance on bilingual skills planning for the service.

Yn ddiweddar, cafodd cylch gorchwyl y tasglu ei ymestyn i gynnwys gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn ogystal â gwasanaethau iechyd. Cefais gyfarfod yn ddiweddar gyda’r cynghorydd Meryl Gravell, llefarydd Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ar wasanaethau cymdeithasol ac iechyd, er mwyn ystyried sut mae’r tasglu yn gweithio gyda’r sector. Bu inni gytuno y byddai’n fuddiol edrych i mewn i’r posibilrwydd o gynnal prosiect peilot ar gryfhau sgiliau dwyieithog y gweithlu iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Rhoddaf fwy o fanylion i chi am hynny cyn bo hir.

The task group recently broadened its remit to cover social services as well as health. I recently had a meeting with councillor Meryl Gravell, the Welsh Local Government Association’s spokesperson for social services and health, to consider how the task group works with the sector. We agreed that it would be useful to look into the possibility of running a pilot project on strengthening bilingual skills in the health and social services workforce. I will report further to you on that issue in due course.

I gloi, yr wyf yn falch o allu dweud bod y tasglu yn gwneud gwahaniaeth, ond yr ydym yn cydnabod bod llawer iawn i’w wneud o hyd. Yr oedd adroddiad diwethaf Cyngor Ewrop yn cydnabod bod cynnydd wedi’i wneud ond nododd hefyd fod y gwasanaeth Cymraeg yn y sector yn dal i fod yn fater o hap a damwain yn hytrach na’i fod wedi’i seilio ar gynllunio bwriadol. Mae’r tasglu’n rhoi arweiniad a chefnogaeth i’r gwasanaeth ar y mater hwn. Yr wyf yn ffodus fod gennyf aelodau ymroddedig a gwybodus ar y tasglu, ac yr wyf hefyd yn ddiolchgar i uned iaith Gymraeg yr adran iechyd am ei gwaith. Fodd bynnag, yn fwy na dim, hoffwn ddiolch i’r gweithwyr iechyd a’r gweithwyr gofal cymdeithasol, sef y rheiny sy’n cydnabod bob dydd pa mor bwysig ydyw i bobl allu trafod eu pryderon yn eu hiaith eu hunain. Drwy ddangos parch fel hyn, mae pobl yn wirioneddol yn derbyn gofal o ansawdd

To conclude, I am pleased to report that the task group is making a difference, but we recognise that there is still much to do. The most recent report from the Council of Europe acknowledged that progress has been made but noted that Welsh-language services in the sector continue to be a matter of chance rather than design. The task group provides leadership and support to the service on this issue. I am fortunate to have committed and knowledgeable members on the group, and am grateful to the NHS Welsh language unit within the department for its work. However, more than anything, I want to thank the health and social care professionals who every day recognise just how important it is for people to discuss their concerns in their own language. By showing people that respect, people will genuinely receive high-quality care.

42

24/02/2009

uchel.

Jonathan Morgan: I am grateful to the Deputy Minister for making her statement this afternoon. The Welsh Conservatives fully endorse the moves that have been taken to ensure that more people receiving health and social care services in Wales can do so through the medium of Welsh. I join the Deputy Minister in paying tribute to all those staff providing health and social care who do a huge amount of work to deliver services, often in difficult circumstances.

Jonathan Morgan: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Dirprwy Weinidog am wneud ei datganiad y prynhawn yma. Mae Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn cefnogi’n llwyr y camau sydd wedi’u cymryd i sicrhau y gall mwy o bobl sy’n cael gwasanaethau iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol yng Nghymru wneud hynny drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Ymunaf â’r Dirprwy Weinidog i roi teyrnged i’r holl staff hynny sy’n darparu gwasanaethau iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol ac sy’n gwneud llawer iawn o waith i ddarparu gwasanaethau, a hynny’n aml dan amgylchiadau anodd.

Deputy Minister, I know that you personally are deeply committed to ensuring that we can develop a wider range of services through the medium of Welsh for those people who wish to access them, but I am concerned about the rate of progress that we have seen. The task group was established in 2000. By the end of this year, nine years will have passed, and I feel that some of the progress has been a little on the weak side. I will outline my particular concerns. The Deputy Minister has said that the Government is doing whatever it can to ensure that the reconfiguration of the NHS will not have an adverse effect on its ability to deliver those services through the medium of Welsh and, in particular, that the work that has been done to invest in front-line Welsh language officers will continue. What we need to know is not just that current services will be safeguarded but how the seven new bodies will take this a stage further and ensure that more services can be accessed through the medium of Welsh. I accept that work is being done to safeguard what has been achieved so far, but, as the official opposition, we would like to see how the seven new bodies will take this a stage further.

Ddirprwy Weinidog, gwn eich bod yn bersonol wedi ymrwymo’n llwyr i sicrhau y gallwn ddatblygu ystod ehangach o wasanaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg i’r bobl hynny sy’n dymuno cael gafael arnynt, ond yr wyf yn pryderu ynghylch cyfradd y cynnydd yr ydym wedi’i weld. Sefydlwyd y grŵp gorchwyl yn 2000. Erbyn diwedd eleni, bydd naw mlynedd wedi mynd heibio, a theimlaf fod rhywfaint o’r cynnydd wedi bod braidd yn wan. Amlinellaf fy mhryderon penodol. Mae’r Dirprwy Weinidog wedi dweud bod y Llywodraeth yn gwneud popeth yn ei gallu i sicrhau na fydd ad-drefnu’r GIG yn cael effaith andwyol ar ei allu i ddarparu’r gwasanaethau hynny drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg ac, yn benodol, y bydd y gwaith sydd wedi’i wneud i fuddsoddi mewn swyddogion rheng flaen ar gyfer yr iaith Gymraeg yn parhau. Yr hyn y mae angen inni ei wybod yw, nid yn unig y bydd y gwasanaethau presennol yn cael eu diogelu, ond sut y bydd y saith corff newydd yn datblygu hyn gam ymhellach ac yn sicrhau y gellir cael gafael ar fwy o wasanaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Yr wyf yn derbyn bod gwaith yn cael ei wneud i ddiogelu’r hyn a gyflawnwyd hyd yn hyn, ond, gan mai ni yw’r Wrthblaid swyddogol, hoffem weld sut bydd y saith corff newydd yn datblygu hyn gam ymhellach.

3.00 p.m.

Secondly, you have rightly said that the inspectorates play a critical role in ensuring that health and social care services are developed in the right way in Wales. We have excellent inspectorates doing a difficult

Yn ail, yr oeddech yn llygad eich lle pan ddywedasoch fod yr arolygiaethau’n chwarae rhan allweddol wrth sicrhau bod gwasanaethau iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol yn cael eu datblygu yn y ffordd gywir yng

43

24/02/2009

job, and you have said that they are being asked to produce guidance on inspecting Welsh-language services in the sector. I would like an assurance that the inspection regime will not merely be a check that a relevant hospital, care home or a social services provider has a Welsh-language scheme but that it will check that they are capable of providing more services through the medium of Welsh. That is essential. If we are going to be certain that we are providing more services through the Welsh language, the inspectorate regime needs to have a way of testing that and cannot merely be a check of documents to see whether a Welsh-language scheme is in operation. I would be keen to hear how that will be improved.

Nghymru. Mae gennym arolygiaethau rhagorol sy’n gwneud gwaith anodd, ac yr ydych wedi dweud bod disgwyl iddynt lunio canllawiau ar arolygu gwasanaethau Cymraeg yn y sector. Hoffwn gael sicrwydd y bydd y gyfundrefn arolygu, yn ogystal â gofalu bod gan ysbyty, cartref gofal neu ddarparwr gwasanaethau cymdeithasol perthnasol gynllun iaith Gymraeg, yn sicrhau eu bod yn gallu darparu mwy o wasanaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae hynny’n hanfodol. Os ydym am fod yn sicr ein bod yn darparu mwy o wasanaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, mae angen i’r gyfundrefn arolygu gael ffordd o brofi hynny, a gwneud mwy na dim ond archwilio dogfennau i weld a oes cynllun iaith Gymraeg yn cael ei weithredu. Hoffwn glywed sut y bydd hynny’n cael ei wella.

You have rightly said that increasing the number of staff in the NHS who speak Welsh is an important aspect of delivering more services through the Welsh language. I welcome any move towards increasing the number of health workers and social care workers who speak Welsh, but is the Government considering allowing staff working in certain areas to pursue a language course as part of their continuing professional development? I am aware that, in certain parts of the NHS, it is difficult for healthcare workers to take time away from work to pursue a new skill. Nurses, for example, working in a GP practice can often find it difficult to take time away from the primary care setting to improve a skill. Ninety per cent of the people of Wales who access the NHS do so through the primary care sector, and if we are serious about improving the primary care sector’s ability to deliver services in Welsh, we have to see how those key workers can be afforded the time to pursue Welsh-language courses, as they may not have the time to do that work. I am keen to see how the Government will ensure that that happens. At the moment, it is not happening, and the Government needs to be a bit more imaginative about how this will be achieved.

Yr ydych wedi dweud, yn gwbl briodol, bod cynyddu nifer y staff sy’n siarad Cymraeg yn y GIG yn agwedd bwysig ar ddarparu mwy o wasanaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Croesawaf unrhyw beth a fydd yn helpu i gynyddu nifer y gweithwyr iechyd a’r gweithwyr gofal cymdeithasol sy’n siarad Cymraeg, ond a yw’r Llywodraeth yn ystyried caniatáu i staff sy’n gweithio mewn rhai meysydd i ddilyn cwrs iaith fel rhan o’u datblygiad proffesiynol parhaus? Gwn ei bod yn anodd, mewn rhai rhannau o’r GIG, i weithwyr gofal iechyd gymryd amser o’u gwaith i ddysgu sgil newydd. Er enghraifft, mae’n anodd yn aml iawn i nyrsys sy’n gweithio mewn practis meddygon teulu gymryd amser o’r lleoliad gofal sylfaenol i wella sgil. Mae naw deg y cant o’r bobl sy’n defnyddio’r GIG yng Nghymru yn gwneud hynny drwy’r sector gofal sylfaenol, ac os ydym o ddifrif ynglŷn â gwella gallu’r sector gofal sylfaenol i ddarparu gwasanaethau Cymraeg, rhaid inni weld sut y gellir rhoi amser i’r gweithwyr allweddol hynny ddilyn cyrsiau Cymraeg, gan ei bod yn bosibl na fydd ganddynt amser i wneud hynny. Yr wyf yn awyddus i weld sut y bydd y Llywodraeth yn sicrhau y bydd hynny’n digwydd. Nid yw’n digwydd ar hyn o bryd, ac mae angen i’r Llywodraeth ddangos ychydig bach mwy o ddychymyg er mwyn ceisio canfod ffordd o wneud hyn.

I notice that the Minister has been discussing with the Welsh Local Government

Sylwaf fod y Gweinidog wedi bod yn trafod gyda Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru

44

24/02/2009

Association how health and social services bodies, particularly those working to local government, will be able to expand the number of people who speak Welsh. It is a good idea, but we will need to see how the pilot project is going to work and what its aims and objectives are, because, unless it is meaningful, it may not provide the right sort of framework for those key workers to develop their linguistic skills.

sut y bydd cyrff iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, yn enwedig y rhai hynny sy’n gweithio i lywodraeth leol, yn gallu cynyddu nifer y bobl sy’n siarad Cymraeg. Mae’n syniad da, ond bydd angen inni weld sut mae’r prosiect peilot yn mynd i weithio a beth yw ei nodau a’i amcanion, oherwydd os nad yw’n ystyrlon, mae’n bosibl na fydd yn darparu’r math iawn o fframwaith i alluogi’r gweithwyr allweddol hynny i ddatblygu eu sgiliau ieithyddol.

Gwenda Thomas: I take your first point about what seems to you to be slow progress, and I have already said that I know that there is a lot more to do. Good services are being developed, particularly by the Welsh language officers who are already in place. We have seen quite a lot of progress there.

Gwenda Thomas: Yr wyf yn deall eich pwynt cyntaf ynglŷn â chynnydd sy’n ymddangos yn araf i chi, ac yr wyf eisoes wedi dweud fy mod yn gwybod bod llawer mwy o waith i’w wneud. Mae gwasanaethau da’n cael eu datblygu, yn enwedig gan y swyddogion iaith sydd wedi cael eu penodi’n barod. Yr ydym wedi gweld cryn dipyn o gynnydd yn y maes hwn.

You ask about the seven new health bodies. I am sure that this will be taken forward as part of the restructuring of the health service, and I believe that the Minister has given an unequivocal commitment to developing Welsh-medium services in the health service and in social services. The fact that there will not be a reduction in the number of Welsh language officers shows a clear commitment.

Yr ydych yn holi ynglŷn â’r saith corff iechyd newydd. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd hyn yn cael ei weithredu fel rhan o’r broses o ad-drefnu’r gwasanaeth iechyd, a chredaf fod y Gweinidog wedi rhoi ymrwymiad pendant i ddatblygu gwasanaethau cyfrwng Cymraeg yn y gwasanaeth iechyd a’r gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Mae’r ffaith na fydd lleihad yn nifer y swyddogion iaith yn dangos ymrwymiad pendant.

Your point about the inspection is interesting. Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales and Healthcare Inspectorate Wales made a joint presentation to the taskforce, and both inspectorates are absolutely committed to reviewing Welsh-medium services and the provision of those services. You say that you want assurances that they will not just be monitoring the implementation of Welsh-language schemes, but that is a matter for the Welsh Language Board. The inspectorates fully understand that, and they will be looking at holding a review of the services in order to bring back a report. They are also putting money in. They have shown absolute commitment in bringing back a message of what exactly is available and what we need to do.

Mae eich pwynt ynglŷn â’r gyfundrefn arolygu’n ddiddorol. Cyflwynodd Arolygiaeth Gofal a Gwasanaethau Iechyd Cymru ac Arolygiaeth Gofal Iechyd Cymru gyflwyniad ar y cyd i’r tasglu, ac mae’r ddwy arolygiaeth yn gwbl ymroddedig i adolygu gwasanaethau cyfrwng Cymraeg a’r modd y darperir y gwasanaethau hynny. Yr ydych yn dweud bod arnoch eisiau sicrwydd y byddant yn gwneud mwy na dim ond monitro gweithrediad cynlluniau iaith Gymraeg, ond mater i Fwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg yw hynny. Mae’r arolygiaethau’n deall hynny’n iawn, a byddant yn ystyried adolygiad o’r gwasanaethau er mwyn cyflwyno adroddiad. Maent yn buddsoddi arian hefyd. Maent wedi dangos ymrwymiad pendant i gyflwyno neges ynglŷn â beth yn union sydd ar gael a beth y mae angen inni ei wneud.

I fully agree with you about language courses. There are examples of excellent

Yr wyf yn cytuno’n llwyr â chi ynglŷn â chyrsiau iaith. Ceir enghreifftiau o gyrsiau

45

24/02/2009

courses being put on, some in Gwent, I am sure. I will give you a fuller answer on that point, with full examples of where language courses are being made available to staff and where staff are being supported and encouraged to participate in these courses.

gwych sy’n cael eu cynnig, rhai yng Ngwent, mae’n siŵr. Yr wyf am roi ateb llawnach ichi ar y pwynt hwnnw, gydag enghreifftiau llawn o gyrsiau iaith yn cael eu cynnig i staff a’r staff yn cael eu cefnogi a’u hannog i ddilyn y cyrsiau hyn.

On the point about primary care services, this is an opportune time to point out that the sector does not currently have to operate bilingually in line with the Welsh Language Act 1993. However, 90 per cent of the public’s contact with the health service is with primary care, so it is important that it responds to needs. Dr Chris Jones, chair of Rhondda Cynon Taf LHB, is leading the work of developing an all-Wales primary and community care strategic delivery programme. I have had two meetings with him, and looking at the provision of services through the medium of Welsh is high on his agenda. It has been agreed that the Welsh language will be included in the review of primary care, and he will shortly meet a small group to discuss the pertinent issues here.

Ar y pwynt ynglŷn â gwasanaethau gofal sylfaenol, mae hwn yn amser da i nodi nad yw’n ofynnol ar hyn o bryd i’r sector weithredu’n ddwyieithog yn unol â Deddf yr Iaith Gymraeg 1993. Fodd bynnag, mae 90 y cant o gysylltiad y cyhoedd â’r gwasanaeth iechyd yn digwydd ym maes gofal sylfaenol, felly mae’n bwysig ei fod yn ymateb i anghenion. Mae Dr Chris Jones, cadeirydd BILl Rhondda Cynon Taf, yn arwain y gwaith o ddatblygu rhaglen cyflawni strategol ym maes gofal sylfaenol a chymunedol ar gyfer Cymru gyfan. Yr wyf wedi cael dau gyfarfod gydag ef, ac mae edrych ar ddarparu gwasanaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn uchel ar ei agenda. Cytunwyd y bydd yr iaith Gymraeg yn cael ei chynnwys yn yr adolygiad o ofal sylfaenol, a bydd yn cyfarfod grŵp bychan cyn bo hir i drafod y materion perthnasol yn y cyswllt hwn.

On the last point, this is what the pilot project is all about. It is important not only to encourage staff to participate in courses, but that we identify staff who are able to converse in Welsh. People do not, in all cases, have to be highly qualified or have graduated. Being able to ask, ‘Hoffech chi gael dysglaid o de?’, or ‘Sut ydych chi heddiw?’—when offering them a cup of tea or asking them how they are—is sometimes as important to people as formal services. I am sure that you agree.

Ar y pwynt olaf, dyma beth y bydd y prosiect peilot yn ei wneud. Mae’n bwysig annog staff i ddilyn cyrsiau, ac mae’n bwysig hefyd ein bod yn gwybod pa aelodau o’r staff sy’n gallu siarad Cymraeg. Nid oes rhaid cael cymwysterau da neu radd bob amser. Mae gallu gofyn, ‘Hoffech chi gael dysglaid o de?’, neu ‘Sut ydych chi heddiw?’—wrth gynnig dysglaid o de iddynt neu ofyn sut maent—ambell waith yr un mor bwysig i bobl â gwasanaethau ffurfiol. Yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunwch.

Helen Mary Jones: I warmly welcome the statement, and I thank the Deputy Minister and the Minister for bringing this item forward and for the steps that they are taking. I am particularly pleased by the Government’s recognition of the fact that receiving services through the language of choice is not just a matter of rights or equality, as the Deputy Minister said, as it also has a demonstrable effect on health and care outcomes, especially for the vulnerable. Dr Dai Lloyd reminded me earlier of the fact that, as the result of a stroke, patients will

Helen Mary Jones: Yr wyf yn croesawu’r datganiad yn fawr, a hoffwn ddiolch i’r Dirprwy Weinidog a’r Gweinidog am gyflwyno’r eitem hon ac am y camau y maent yn eu cymryd. Yr wyf yn arbennig o falch bod y Llywodraeth yn cydnabod y ffaith bod cael gwasanaethau yn eich dewis iaith yn fwy na mater o hawliau neu gydraddoldeb, fel y dywedodd y Dirprwy Weinidog, gan ei fod hefyd yn cael effaith amlwg ar ganlyniadau iechyd a gofal, yn enwedig i bobl sy’n agored i niwed. Atgoffaodd Dr Dai Lloyd fi yn gynharach ynglŷn â’r ffaith y bydd cleifion

46

24/02/2009

often lose their second language altogether. If that person has Welsh as their first language, they will have to have their service through the medium of Welsh or they will not get a proper diagnosis. There are many other examples involving children or patients with learning disabilities for whom it is essential that they receive their treatment through the medium of Welsh, or their health outcomes will be negatively affected.

sydd wedi cael strôc, yn aml iawn, yn colli eu hail iaith yn gyfan gwbl. Os yw’r unigolyn hwnnw’n siarad Cymraeg fel iaith gyntaf, bydd yn rhaid iddo gael ei wasanaeth drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg neu ni fydd yn cael diagnosis cywir. Mae nifer o enghreifftiau eraill yn ymwneud â phlant neu gleifion sydd ag anableddau dysgu lle mae’n hanfodol eu bod yn cael eu triniaeth drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, er mwyn osgoi effaith negyddol ar ganlyniadau iechyd.

I also welcome the Minister’s and the Deputy Minister’s recognition that it is the responsibility of services to be proactive in offering services through the medium of Welsh. Just as the Deputy Minister said, many of us who speak Welsh will have good experiences of having received a word or two of comfort in Welsh and that making a world of difference. I also have family experience of taking a small, Welsh-speaking child to an accident and emergency unit and seeing three Welsh-speaking nurses but being offered the English-speaking one. When you have a small child who is upset, you do not think to say, ‘But I know that person speaks Welsh; please can I have them’, and you find yourself sitting there, translating for the nurse so that the nurse understands where the child is saying it hurts. We have to ensure that those services are offered proactively, and there are simple ways in which that can be done. Wearing the Welsh Language Board badge so that people know which staff speak Welsh is a simple way of doing that.

Yr wyf hefyd yn croesawu cydnabyddiaeth y Gweinidog a’r Dirprwy Weinidog bod gan wasanaethau gyfrifoldeb i fod yn rhagweithiol drwy gynnig gwasanaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Fel y dywedodd y Dirprwy Weinidog, bydd gan lawer ohonom sy’n siarad Cymraeg atgofion melys o gael gair neu ddau o gysur yn Gymraeg a hynny’n gwneud byd o wahaniaeth. Mae gennyf finnau brofiad teuluol o fynd â phlentyn ifanc Cymraeg ei iaith i uned damweiniau ac achosion brys, gweld tair nyrs a oedd yn siarad Cymraeg, ond cael cynnig yr un a oedd yn siarad Saesneg. Pan mae gennych blentyn bach gofidus, nid ydych yn ystyried dweud, ‘Ond gwn fod yr unigolyn acw’n siarad Cymraeg; a gaf fi siarad ag ef?’, ac yr ydych yn eistedd yno, yn cyfieithu er mwyn i’r nyrs ddeall lle mae’r plentyn yn dweud mae ei boen. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod y gwasanaethau hynny’n cael eu cynnig mewn modd rhagweithiol, ac mae ffyrdd syml o wneud hynny. Mae gwisgo bathodyn Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg er mwyn i bobl wybod pa staff sy’n siarad Cymraeg yn ffordd syml o wneud hynny.

I have been pleased with this Government’s commitment to ensuring that the current boards and trusts have Welsh language officers. However, for the sake of clarity, can the Deputy Minister confirm that the same requirement will be placed on the seven new local health boards? Also, can the Deputy Minister confirm that these Welsh language officers will be of a sufficiently senior level to be able to make and influence strategic decisions? Many of us have experiences of equalities officers that are at such a low level in their organisations that they are unable to make any real impact.

Yr wyf yn falch o weld ymrwymiad y Llywodraeth hon i sicrhau bod gan y byrddau a’r ymddiriedolaethau presennol swyddogion iaith. Fodd bynnag, er mwyn bod yn hollol glir, a all y Dirprwy Weinidog gadarnhau y bydd hyn yn un o’r gofynion ar gyfer y saith bwrdd iechyd lleol newydd hefyd? Yn ychwanegol at hyn, a all y Dirprwy Weinidog gadarnhau y bydd gan y swyddogion iaith hyn ddigon o statws i allu gwneud penderfyniadau strategol a dylanwadu arnynt? Mae llawer ohonom wedi gweld swyddogion cydraddoldeb sydd â chyn lleied o statws yn eu sefydliad fel nad ydynt yn gallu dylanwadu o ddifrif ar bethau.

47

24/02/2009

I urge Ministers to consider ensuring that a member of each local health board has specific responsibility for the delivery of the Welsh language scheme and to report on that. We have to ensure that there is a named responsibility to ensure that progress is driven forward.

Yr wyf yn pwyso ar y Gweinidogion i ystyried sicrhau bod gan un aelod o bob bwrdd iechyd lleol gyfrifoldeb penodol am gyflawni’r cynllun iaith Gymraeg a chyflwyno adroddiad am hynny. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod rhywun yn cael ei enwebu i fod yn gyfrifol am sicrhau bod cynnydd yn cael ei wneud.

3.10 p.m.

I very much welcome the commitment to building the need for Welsh language skills into recruitment considerations, pre-registration training and workforce planning. That is obviously essential. What steps can be taken to enable those staff who speak Welsh socially to develop professional confidence? Further to some of the points made by Jonathan Morgan, there is a question of people being able to learn Welsh, but there are some people—I include myself in this—who speak Welsh socially fairly confidently but do not have the confidence to use it professionally. Medical staff who have not been trained through the medium of Welsh may not feel able to work through the medium of Welsh. As we move this agenda forward, it will be very important that those members of staff are given the support that they need to cross that bridge and to build that confidence.

Yr wyf yn croesawu’r ymrwymiad i gynnwys yr angen am sgiliau Cymraeg mewn ystyriaethau recriwtio, hyfforddiant cyn cofrestru a gwaith cynllunio gweithlu yn fawr iawn. Mae hynny’n amlwg yn hanfodol. Pa gamau y gellir eu cymryd er mwyn galluogi’r staff hynny sy’n siarad Cymraeg yn gymdeithasol i ddatblygu hyder proffesiynol? Yn dilyn rhai o’r pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd gan Jonathan Morgan, mae angen galluogi pobl i ddysgu Cymraeg, ond mae rhai pobl—ac yr wyf fi’n un ohonynt—sy’n siarad Cymraeg yn gymdeithasol yn weddol hyderus ond nad oes ganddynt yr hyder i’w defnyddio’n broffesiynol. Mae’n bosibl nad yw staff meddygol sydd heb gael eu hyfforddi drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn teimlo’n ddigon hyderus i weithio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Wrth inni symud yr agenda hon yn ei blaen, bydd yn bwysig iawn bod yr aelodau hynny o’r staff yn cael y gefnogaeth y mae arnynt ei hangen er mwyn croesi’r bont honno a datblygu’r hyder hwnnw.

I was also very pleased to hear about the discussions with social services and the plans to bring forward a pilot scheme. Further to your response to Jonathan Morgan, Deputy Minister, are you able to tell us what the timescale will be for getting that pilot scheme off the ground? Having a successful pilot scheme, and being able to drive it forward, will be a very important step.

Yr oeddwn hefyd yn falch iawn o glywed am y trafodaethau gyda gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a’r bwriad i gyflwyno cynllun peilot. Yn dilyn eich ymateb i Jonathan Morgan, Ddirprwy Weinidog, a allwch ddweud wrthym pa bryd y bydd y cynllun peilot hwnnw’n cael ei roi ar waith? Bydd cael cynllun peilot llwyddiannus, a gallu ei weithredu, yn gam pwysig iawn.

I was very glad to hear the Deputy Minister acknowledge that there is still a lot to do. Do you agree, Deputy Minister, that having seven new LHBs will provide an opportunity for a fresh start and a more strategic approach, ensuring that the right staff are available in the right place at the right time? One problem in the past was that, with so many smaller organisations planning

Yr oeddwn yn falch iawn o glywed y Dirprwy Weinidog yn cydnabod bod llawer o waith i’w wneud eto. A ydych yn cytuno, Ddirprwy Weinidog, y bydd cael saith BILl newydd yn gyfle i ddechrau o’r newydd a chael dull gweithredu mwy strategol, gan sicrhau bod y staff priodol ar gael yn y man priodol ar yr adeg briodol? Un broblem yn y gorffennol, gan fod cynifer o sefydliadau

48

24/02/2009

services, it was difficult to take a strategic approach to the provision of services bilingually and through the medium of Welsh. Do you agree, Deputy Minister, that we are now in a position, at least with regard to secondary care, where the new, larger bodies should be able to take a much more strategic approach within their own areas and across boundaries?

bach yn cynllunio gwasanaethau, oedd ei bod yn anodd cael ymagwedd strategol at ddarparu gwasanaethau’n ddwyieithog a drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. A ydych yn cytuno, Ddirprwy Weinidog, ein bod yn awr mewn sefyllfa, o ran gofal eilaidd o leiaf, lle dylai’r cyrff newydd mwy allu mabwysiadu ymagwedd lawer mwy strategol yn eu hardaloedd eu hunain ac ar draws ffiniau?

Gwenda Thomas: I accept your first point on vulnerable groups, and I have mentioned the four vulnerable groups that are being prioritised by the taskforce. There are also examples of people with dementia; Jonathan mentioned this during a previous Assembly debate, when he spoke about his grandfather. I am sure that we all have such examples that we could share. It is important that these groups are prioritised; that is our intention. I have no doubt that the seven new LHBs will develop the commitment—that is what I would expect, and I am sure that that is what the Minister and the Welsh language officers would expect. Welsh language officers are in place, of course, and they will not be affected. I see language officials who have done excellent work, and I am sure that we will want that to continue. It is my understanding that local health boards will have to appoint a champion for the Welsh language and the language of the people of Wales.

Gwenda Thomas: Yr wyf yn cydnabod eich pwynt cyntaf ynglŷn â grwpiau sy’n agored i niwed, ac yr wyf wedi cyfeirio at y pedwar grŵp agored i niwed sy’n cael eu blaenoriaethu gan y tasglu. Mae enghreifftiau hefyd o bobl â dementia; cyfeiriodd Jonathan at hyn yn ystod dadl flaenorol yn y Cynulliad, pan siaradodd am ei dad-cu. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod gan bob un ohonom enghreifftiau o’r fath y gallem eu rhannu. Mae’n bwysig bod y grwpiau hyn yn cael eu blaenoriaethu; dyna’n bwriad. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y saith BILl newydd yn datblygu’r ymrwymiad—dyna beth y byddwn yn ei ddisgwyl, ac yr wyf yn siŵr mai dyna beth y byddai’r Gweinidog a’r swyddogion iaith yn ei ddisgwyl. Mae swyddogion iaith wedi cael eu penodi’n barod, wrth gwrs, ac ni fydd unrhyw effaith arnynt hwy. Gwelaf swyddogion iaith sydd wedi gwneud gwaith rhagorol, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwn yn dymuno gweld hynny’n parhau. Yn ôl yr hyn a ddeallaf fi bydd yn rhaid i fyrddau iechyd lleol benodi hyrwyddwr ar gyfer yr iaith Gymraeg ac iaith pobl Cymru.

I understand your point with regard to improving skills and developing professional confidence. Bangor University is developing this work, which I am sure that we would like to see being rolled out, with more courses being made available perhaps.

Yr wyf yn deall eich pwynt ynglŷn â gwella sgiliau a datblygu hyder proffesiynol. Mae Prifysgol Bangor yn datblygu’r gwaith hwn, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y byddem yn hoffi ei weld yn cael ei ymestyn yn raddol, gyda mwy o gyrsiau’n cael eu cynnig efallai.

I cannot give you a timescale on the pilot project today, but I will get back to you as soon as possible with the full details. I am delighted that we have been able to identify a pilot scheme to take forward and I will come back to members on that. Workforce development is, of course, part of the work of the task group, of which Rhian Huws Williams from the Care Council for Wales is an excellent member—she is very well informed on matters concerning the workforce and that is very much a

Ni allaf roi amserlen ichi heddiw ar gyfer y prosiect peilot, ond cysylltaf â chi cyn gynted ag y gallaf gyda’r manylion llawn. Yr wyf yn falch iawn ein bod wedi gallu clustnodi cynllun peilot i’w weithredu a byddaf yn cyflwyno mwy o wybodaeth i’r aelodau ynglŷn â hynny yn nes ymlaen. Mae datblygu gweithlu, wrth gwrs, yn rhan o waith y tasglu, y mae Rhian Huws Williams o Gyngor Gofal Cymru’n aelod rhagorol ohono—mae’n gwybod llawer iawn am faterion sy’n ymwneud â’r gweithlu ac mae hynny’n

49

24/02/2009

consideration for the group. ystyriaeth bwysig i’r grŵp.

Peter Black: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for the statement. I know that your commitment to this agenda is absolute and I am pleased that you will chair the reconstituted taskforce, giving it suitable gravitas to carry forward its agenda.

Peter Black: Diolch am y datganiad, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Gwn eich bod wedi ymrwymo’n llwyr i’r agenda hon ac yr wyf yn falch y byddwch yn cadeirio’r tasglu ar ei newydd wedd, gan roi iddo statws addas i weithredu ei agenda.

Like Jonathan Morgan, I am concerned, however, at the rate of progress on this particular agenda. The original taskforce, as Jonathan said, was established in 2001 by Jane Hutt, the then Minister for health, and it seems that we are now effectively in the process of a relaunch, possibly prompted by the reorganisation in the health service, but perhaps also by the fact that that agenda seems to have lost its way in recent years.

Fel Jonathan Morgan, yr wyf yn bryderus, fodd bynnag, nad yw’r cynnydd yn digwydd yn ddigon buan â’r agenda benodol hon. Sefydlwyd y tasglu gwreiddiol, fel y dywedodd Jonathan, yn 2001 gan Jane Hutt, y Gweinidog dros Iechyd ar y pryd, ac mae’n ymddangos ein bod yn awr, i bob golwg, wrthi’n ail-lansio. Efallai fod hynny wedi’i sbarduno gan yr ad-drefnu yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, ond hefyd efallai gan y ffaith bod yr agenda wedi colli’i ffordd braidd yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf.

Like Jonathan Morgan, I would urge you to approach the issue of education and training for people already in post so that they can improve their language skills. That may be one way forward to increase the range of professionals able to offer a service in the Welsh language, even if it is, as you say, simply a matter of offering someone a cup of tea or some words of comfort in Welsh. It is important that staff are able to do that, particularly where care is being provided in the community to elderly and vulnerable people. Being addressed in their own language, even if it is only a few sentences, offers some comfort and helps to establish a rapport between the care worker and the patient.

Fel Jonathan Morgan, hoffwn eich annog i roi sylw i fater addysg a hyfforddiant i bobl sydd eisoes mewn swydd er mwyn iddynt wella’u sgiliau iaith. Gallai hynny fod yn un ffordd ymlaen o gynyddu’r ystod o bobl broffesiynol sy’n gallu cynnig gwasanaeth yn y Gymraeg, hyd yn oed os nad yw hynny, fel y dywedwch, ond yn fater o gynnig cwpanaid o de i rywun neu ambell air o gysur iddynt yn y Gymraeg. Mae’n bwysig bod staff yn gallu gwneud hynny, yn enwedig lle y darperir gofal yn y gymuned i’r henoed ac i bobl agored i niwed. Mae cael eu cyfarch yn eu hiaith eu hunain, hyd yn oed os dim ond ambell frawddeg yw hynny, yn cynnig rhywfaint o gysur ac yn gymorth i sefydlu perthynas rhwng y gweithiwr gofal a’r claf.

My main concern about this agenda is how you are going to map the provision that already exists and put in place systems that will identify and address weaknesses. It seems that there is varied experience across Wales with regard to the provision of services through the medium of Welsh, and that is particularly the case when you consider the social care services available from local government, which I see you have recently brought into this taskforce. I welcome the fact you have done that.

Y prif beth sy’n fy mhoeni ynglŷn â’r agenda hon yw sut y bwriadwch fapio’r ddarpariaeth sy’n bodoli eisoes a sefydlu systemau a fydd yn adnabod gwendidau ac yn mynd i’r afael â hwy. Mae’n ymddangos bod profiadau pobl ledled Cymru’n amrywio o ran cael gwasanaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, a bod hynny’n arbennig o wir pan ystyriwch y gwasanaethau gofal cymdeithasol sydd ar gael gan lywodraeth leol, a gwelaf ichi gynnwys hyn yn ddiweddar yn y tasglu hwn. Croesawaf y ffaith ichi wneud hynny.

It is important that we identify weaknesses and put in place action plans to deal with

Mae’n bwysig inni adnabod gwendidau a sefydlu cynlluniau gweithredu i ymdrin â

50

24/02/2009

those. This is all part of the issue of how the new local health boards will interact with local councils—particularly when they no longer have coterminous boundaries—and of ensuring that the social care side and the health and community care side provided by the health service are working together, avoiding duplication and ensuring that services are available in English and Welsh where needed.

hwy. Mae hyn i gyd yn rhan o sut y bydd y byrddau iechyd lleol newydd yn rhyngweithio â chynghorau lleol—yn enwedig pan na fyddant yn cydffinio â hwy rhagor—ac o sicrhau bod yr ochr gofal cymdeithasol a’r ochr iechyd a gofal yn y gymuned a ddarperir gan y gwasanaeth iechyd yn cydweithio, yn osgoi dyblygu ac yn sicrhau bod gwasanaethau ar gael yn y Gymraeg a’r Saesneg lle bo angen hynny.

I welcome in particular your views on the commissioning of services. Clearly, it will be the job of the new local health boards to commission services, although I understand that the provider-supplier split no longer exists. What guidance will you issue to local health boards on how they deliver the services so that delivering those services through the Welsh language will be a major consideration when they come to designing them? In particular, there should be guidance on ensuring that that provision reflects the linguistic make-up of the community for which those services are being provided.

Croesawaf yn benodol eich barn am gomisiynu gwasanaethau. Mae’n amlwg mai gwaith y byrddau iechyd lleol newydd fydd comisiynu gwasanaethau, er fy mod yn deall nad yw’r rhaniad rhwng darparwyr a chyflenwyr yn bodoli rhagor. Pa arweiniad a roddwch i fyrddau iechyd lleol ynglŷn â sut y byddant yn darparu’r gwasanaethau er mwyn i ddarparu’r gwasanaethau hynny drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg fod yn ystyriaeth o bwys wrth iddynt eu cynllunio? Yn benodol, dylai fod arweiniad ynglŷn â sicrhau bod y ddarpariaeth yn adlewyrchu cyfansoddiad ieithyddol y gymuned y darperir y gwasanaethau hynny ar ei chyfer.

With regard to the new local health boards and their own Welsh language schemes, which they will get around to producing at some point, what priority will the Government be putting on the development of those language schemes as part of this reorganisation? When will the local health boards be required to provide the schemes, and will you require them to specifically address this issue as part of those schemes, including an action plan to address any weaknesses they identify as part of the development of the scheme?

Gyda golwg ar y byrddau iechyd lleol newydd, a’u cynlluniau iaith Gymraeg hwy eu hunain y byddant yn eu cynhyrchu rywbryd, pa flaenoriaeth y bydd y Llywodraeth yn ei rhoi i ddatblygu’r cynlluniau iaith hynny fel rhan o’r ad-drefnu hwn? Pa bryd y bydd gofyn i’r byrddau iechyd lleol ddarparu’r cynlluniau, ac a fyddwch yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol iddynt roi sylw’n benodol i’r mater hwn fel rhan o’r cynlluniau hynny, gan gynnwys cynllun gweithredu i fynd i’r afael ag unrhyw wendidau a welant wrth iddynt ddatblygu’r cynllun?

Gwenda Thomas: Thank you, Peter. I should point out that the taskforce that I chair has existed since 2007. Therefore, it is not something that I am proposing to set up; it already exists. It followed on from the hard work of the group set up by Jane Hutt. This work is very much a continuation of that work, and we have been able to learn a great deal from what went on then. However, I take your point about vulnerable groups. Of course, they have to be a priority. You referred to the mapping exercise. I am sure that someone will correct me if I am wrong,

Gwenda Thomas: Diolch ichi, Peter. Dylwn ddweud bod y tasglu yr wyf yn ei gadeirio wedi bodoli er 2007. Felly, nid yw’n rhywbeth yr wyf yn bwriadu’i sefydlu, mae’n bodoli eisoes. Daeth yn sgil gwaith caled y grŵp a sefydlwyd gan Jane Hutt. Mae’r gwaith hwn yn barhad o’r gwaith hwnnw i raddau helaeth, ac yr ydym wedi gallu dysgu llawer iawn o’r hyn a ddigwyddodd bryd hynny. Fodd bynnag, derbyniaf eich pwynt am grwpiau agored i niwed. Wrth gwrs, rhaid iddynt fod yn flaenoriaeth. Crybwyllwyd yr ymarfer mapio gennych. Yr wyf yn siŵr y

51

24/02/2009

but the proposed review by the inspectorate will include a mapping exercise to identify what is available and where, and the quality. Therefore, I look forward very much to the result of that work and the work that can be developed through the Social Services Improvement Agency.

gwnaiff rhywun fy nghywiro os wyf yn anghywir, ond bydd yr adolygiad arfaethedig gan yr arolygiaeth yn cynnwys ymarfer mapio i ddangos beth sydd ar gael ac ymhle, a beth yw ei ansawdd. Felly, edrychaf ymlaen yn fawr iawn at ganlyniad y gwaith hwnnw a’r gwaith y gellir ei ddatblygu drwy gyfrwng Asiantaeth Gwella’r Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol.

I take your point about the link between local authority social services departments and the new bodies, and I assure you that the taskforce is already looking at this, taking evidence and presentations from various officials on the rural health plan, for example, and other matters. We are looking to further develop the joint working between social services departments, local government more widely, and the new health bodies. It is my understanding that the Welsh language schemes developed by the new health boards will be a matter for the Welsh Language Board. We recently received a presentation from the Welsh Language Board on this and work is proceeding on the issue.

Derbyniaf eich pwynt am y cysylltiad rhwng adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol awdurdodau lleol, a’r cyrff newydd, ac yr wyf yn eich sicrhau bod y tasglu eisoes yn ystyried hyn, yn derbyn tystiolaeth a chyflwyniadau gan amrywiol swyddogion ynglŷn â’r cynllun iechyd gwledig, er enghraifft, a materion eraill. Yr ydym yn awyddus i ddatblygu rhagor ar y cydweithio rhwng adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, llywodraeth leol yn fwy eang, a’r cyrff iechyd newydd. Fel y caf ar ddeall, mater i Fwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg fydd y cynlluniau iaith Gymraeg a ddatblygir gan y byrddau iechyd newydd. Cawsom gyflwyniad gan Fwrdd yr Iaith ynglŷn â hyn yn ddiweddar ac mae gwaith ar y gweill yng nghyswllt hyn.

3.20 p.m.

Lorraine Barrett: Thank you for your statement, Deputy Minister, which I know is welcomed by everyone on the Welsh Labour benches. You talked about Welsh-medium services being crucial to clinical assessment and treatment. The point that I wanted to raise has already been raised by Helen Mary Jones, but I just want to reiterate the point about planning for Welsh-medium services in an area where you might expect higher demand. In terms of the issue of people who suffer strokes, I will refer to what happened to an elderly constituent of mine a few years ago. To the amazement of her family, the woman reverted to the Welsh language, which was all she spoke as a child. She was in an area where you would not have expected a high demand for Welsh-medium services. Can you ensure that this is taken on board by the taskforce because, with stroke patients particularly—and you mentioned dementia—the need for these services in a particular area could take you by surprise?

Lorraine Barrett: Diolch ichi am eich datganiad, Ddirprwy Weinidog, a gwn fod pawb ar feinciau Llafur Cymru’n ei groesawu. Soniasoch fod gwasanaethau cyfrwng Cymraeg yn hollbwysig ar gyfer asesiadau a thriniaethau clinigol. Mae’r pwynt yr oeddwn i am ei godi wedi’i godi eisoes gan Helen Mary Jones, ond yr wyf am ailadrodd y pwynt ynglŷn â chynllunio ar gyfer gwasanaethau cyfrwng Cymraeg mewn ardal lle y gallech ddisgwyl mwy o alw. O ran pobl sy’n dioddef strôc, cyfeiriaf at yr hyn a ddigwyddodd i un o’m hetholwyr oedrannus ychydig flynyddoedd yn ôl. Er syndod i’w theulu, dechreuodd y wraig ailddefnyddio’r Gymraeg, sef yr unig iaith a siaradai’n blentyn. Yr oedd yn byw mewn ardal lle na fyddech wedi disgwyl galw mawr am wasanaethau cyfrwng Cymraeg. A allwch sicrhau bod y tasglu’n rhoi sylw i hyn oherwydd, gyda chleifion strôc yn benodol—a chrybwyllwyd dementia gennych—gallai’r angen am y gwasanaethau hyn godi’n ddirybudd mewn ardal benodol?

Gwenda Thomas: I will take this Gwenda Thomas: Achubaf ar y cyfle hwn i

52

24/02/2009

opportunity to widen and expand on my reply to Helen Mary Jones. Unfortunately, workforce planning systems have not thus far collected data on the number of Welsh-speakers working in the national health service. However, action has been taken to address this through the NHS electronic staff record, which will, in future, include questions on the Welsh language skills level of NHS staff. The National Leadership and Innovation Agency for Healthcare will undertake a review of Welsh-medium education provided in the health sector in order to explore opportunities for increasing Welsh-medium education in the sector. I have already mentioned that I welcome the initiative by Bangor University. The availability of this data will help us to identify Welsh-speakers within the workforce, and to take account of the important point that you make.

ehangu ac i ymhelaethu ar fy ateb i Helen Mary Jones. Yn anffodus, hyd yn hyn, nid yw systemau cynllunio’r gweithlu wedi casglu data ynglŷn â nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg sy’n gweithio yn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol, cymerwyd camau i fynd i’r afael â hyn drwy gyfrwng cofnod staff electronig y GIG, a fydd, yn y dyfodol, yn cynnwys cwestiynau ynglŷn â lefel sgiliau Cymraeg staff y GIG. Bydd yr Asiantaeth Genedlaethol Arwain ac Arloesi mewn Gofal Iechyd yn cynnal arolwg o addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg a ddarperir yn y sector iechyd er mwyn archwilio’r cyfleoedd ar gyfer cynyddu addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn y sector. Yr wyf wedi sôn eisoes fy mod yn croesawu cynllun Prifysgol Bangor. Bydd sicrhau bod y data hyn ar gael yn gymorth inni adnabod y siaradwyr Cymraeg yn y gweithlu ac i roi sylw i’r pwynt pwysig a wnewch.

Y Llywydd: Diolch yn fawr i’r Dirprwy Weinidog am ei datganiad ac am y gwaith arweiniol a wnaiff yn y maes hwn, sydd yn agos iawn at ei chalon hi a’m calon innau, fel y gŵyr.

The Presiding Officer: I thank the Deputy Minister for her statement and for the innovative work that she does in this area, which is very close to her own heart, and to mine, as she well knows.

Datganiad am Bythefnos Masnach DegStatement on Fairtrade Fortnight

The Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing (Jane Davidson): It is now Fairtrade Fortnight, running from 23 February to 8 March, and I would like to highlight some of the activities taking place across Wales as well as our achievements over the past year when we became the world’s first Fairtrade Nation.

Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Thai (Jane Davidson): Mae bellach yn Bythefnos Masnach Deg, sy’n para rhwng 23 Chwefror ac 8 Mawrth, a hoffwn gyfeirio at rai o’r gweithgareddau sy’n cael eu cynnal drwy Gymru ynghyd ag at ein llwyddiannau dros y flwyddyn diwethaf pan ddaethom yn Wlad Masnach Deg gyntaf y byd.

The international fair-trade movement continues to grow and ensures a better deal for farmers and producers in developing countries. Around a quarter of the world’s population still lives in extreme poverty, on less than $1 a day, but fair trade allows some of the poorest farmers and producers in the world to trade their way out of poverty. A fair price is paid for their produce and additional support is provided for future development in their communities. This can make all the difference to families who would otherwise struggle to send their

Mae’r mudiad masnach deg cenedlaethol yn dal i dyfu, gan sicrhau gwell telerau i ffermwyr a chynhyrchwyr yn y gwledydd sy’n datblygu. Mae tua chwarter poblogaeth y byd yn dal i fyw mewn tlodi eithafol, ar lai na $1 y dydd, ond mae masnach deg yn galluogi rhai o ffermwyr a chynhyrchwyr tlotaf y byd i oresgyn y tlodi hwnnw drwy fasnachu. Telir pris teg am eu cynnyrch a rhoddir cymorth ar ben hynny i ddatblygu eu cymunedau yn y dyfodol. Gall hyn wneud byd o wahaniaeth i deuluoedd a fyddai fel arall yn ei chael yn anodd anfon eu plant i’r

53

24/02/2009

children to school, or have access to clean water and medical facilities. It is estimated that more than 7 million people in Africa, in Asia and in Latin America now benefit from fair trade.

ysgol, cael gafael ar ddŵr glân neu fanteisio ar gyfleusterau meddygol. Amcangyfrifir bod dros 7 miliwn o bobl yn Affrica, Asia ac America Ladin bellach yn elwa yn sgil masnach deg.

The Assembly Government’s support for fair trade has been set out in our sustainable development actions plans and schemes, and also forms a key part of our framework for action on international sustainable development and the Wales for Africa programme. In the last Government, we committed to supporting the campaign to make Wales the world’s first Fairtrade Nation, led by the Fair Trade Wales organisation with funding from the Assembly Government.

Mae cynlluniau a chynlluniau gweithredu Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ym maes datblygu cynaliadwy yn dangos sut yr ydym yn cefnogi masnach deg, ac mae’r gefnogaeth honno hefyd yn rhan allweddol o’n fframwaith ar gyfer gweithredu ar ddatblygu rhyngwladol cynaliadwy a’r rhaglen Cymru o Blaid Affrica. Yn y Llywodraeth ddiwethaf, ymrwymwyd i gefnogi’r ymgyrch i wneud Cymru yn Wlad Masnach Deg gyntaf y byd. Sefydliad Masnach Deg Cymru, gyda chyllid gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad a oedd yn arwain yr ymgyrch honno.

The Fairtrade Nation criteria were set in 2006. A panel of international fair trade sector representatives assessed Wales’s achievements against the criteria last year. Wales was then declared the world’s first Fairtrade Nation on 6 June 2008 at an international fair-trade summit held in Newport, at which 18 farmers from Latin America and Africa were present.

Pennwyd y meini prawf ar gyfer rhoi statws Gwlad Masnach Deg yn 2006. Bu panel rhyngwladol o gynrychiolwyr y sector masnach deg yn asesu llwyddiannau Cymru ar sail y meini prawf y llynedd. Cafwyd datganiad mai Cymru oedd Gwlad Masnach Deg gyntaf y byd ar 6 Mehefin 2008, a hynny mewn uwchgynhadledd masnach deg a gynhaliwyd yng Nghasnewydd. Yr oedd 18 o ffermwyr o America Ladin ac Affrica yn bresennol yn yr uwchgynhadledd honno.

Over 1,000 volunteers across Wales worked hard on the Fairtrade Nation campaign, and they continue to maintain and build on that achievement. To become a Fairtrade Nation, all Welsh local authorities and over half of all towns in Wales needed to have active fair-trade groups. All of our cities and 60 per cent of our higher education institutions needed to have fair-trade status. In addition, the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Assembly Government had to be using fair-trade products internally and promoting fair-trade externally.

Bu dros 1,000 o wirfoddolwyr drwy Gymru yn gweithio’n galed fel rhan o’r ymgyrch Gwlad Masnach Deg, ac maent yn dal i gynnal y llwyddiant a gafwyd ac yn adeiladu arno. Er mwyn dod yn Wlad Masnach Deg, yr oedd angen i holl awdurdodau lleol Cymru a thros hanner holl drefi’r wlad gael grwpiau masnach deg gweithredol. Yr oedd angen i bob un o’n dinasoedd a 60 y cant o’n sefydliadau addysg uwch gael statws masnach deg. At hynny, yr oedd yn rhaid i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ddefnyddio cynnyrch masnach deg yn fewnol, a hyrwyddo masnach deg yn allanol.

These, and other, criteria were met, but the work has not stopped there. Since last summer, two more local authorities have achieved fair-trade status, so over 60 per cent of counties in Wales now have this status. Eleven more towns have set up fair-trade groups, making a total of 69 fair-trade towns

Cyflawnwyd hyn oll a mwy, ond nid yw’r gwaith wedi dod i ben. Ers yr haf, mae dau awdurdod lleol arall wedi ennill statws masnach deg, sy’n golygu bod gan dros 60 y cant o siroedd Cymru y statws hwn bellach. Mae un ar ddeg o drefi eraill yng Nghymru wedi sefydlu grwpiau masnach deg, sy’n

54

24/02/2009

across Wales. Five hundred schools in Wales are now registered on the fair-trade schools scheme, which is around 25 per cent of Welsh schools, compared with 10 per cent of Scottish schools and 5 per cent of schools in London. By the end of Fairtrade Fortnight, all of our universities are expected to have achieved fair-trade status. In October last year, Arriva Trains Wales announced its significant decision to switch to fair-trade hot drinks on all of its services.

golygu bod cyfanswm o 69 tref masnach deg drwy’r wlad. Mae pum cant o ysgolion Cymru wedi cofrestru i fod yn rhan o’r cynllun ysgolion masnach deg, sef tua 25 y cant o holl ysgolion Cymru. Mae hynny’n cymharu â 10 y cant o ysgolion yr Alban a 5 y cant o ysgolion Llundain. Erbyn diwedd Pythefnos Masnach Deg, mae disgwyl y bydd ein holl brifysgolion wedi ennill statws masnach deg. Ym mis Hydref y llynedd, cyhoeddodd Trenau Arriva Cymru ei fod wedi gwneud penderfyniad arwyddocaol i ddechrau gwerthu diodydd poeth masnach deg ar ei holl wasanaethau.

Much of the work so far has been about raising awareness, but we hope to move the emphasis over time to linking consumers and fair-trade producers more directly. Through the Wales for Africa programme, the Assembly Government is providing funding for Welsh-led business advice and support to the Gumutindo Fairtrade Coffee Co-operative in Uganda. We will also be supporting the Bees for Development organisation to enable beekeepers in Cameroon to sell honey and beeswax through a Welsh fair-trade company.

Hyd yma, mae llawer o’r gwaith wedi canolbwyntio ar godi ymwybyddiaeth, ond gobeithiwn newid y pwyslais dros amser er mwyn creu cysylltiadau mwy uniongyrchol rhwng defnyddwyr a chynhyrchwyr masnach deg. Drwy raglen Cymru o Blaid Affrica, mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ariannu menter sy’n galluogi busnesau o Gymru i roi cyngor a chymorth i Fenter Gydweithredol Coffi Masnach Deg Gumutindo yn Uganda. Byddwn hefyd yn cefnogi sefydliad Gwenyn ar gyfer Datblygu i alluogi pobl sy’n cadw gwenyn yn y Camerŵn i werthu mêl a chŵyr gwenyn drwy gwmni masnach deg yng Nghymru.

Wales can therefore be very proud to celebrate Fairtrade Fortnight this year. Lots of activities will be taking place across the country, organised by local fair-trade groups, supporters and organisations, and supported by Fair Trade Wales. We will also be hosting visits from three fair-trade farmers during the fortnight, including a banana producer from Dominica, one of the Windward Islands, a tea producer from Sri Lanka and a coffee producer from Columbia. They will be attending, and speaking at, many of the events in Wales.

Felly, gall Cymru deimlo’n falch iawn wrth ddathlu Pythefnos Masnach Deg eleni. Bydd nifer o weithgareddau’n cael eu cynnal drwy’r wlad, wedi’u trefnu gan grwpiau masnach deg lleol, cefnogwyr a sefydliadau, gyda chymorth Masnach Deg Cymru. Byddwn hefyd yn croesawu ymweliadau gan dri ffermwr masnach deg yn ystod y pythefnos, gan gynnwys cynhyrchydd bananas o Ynys Dominica, un o Ynysoedd y Gwynt, cynhyrchwr te o Sri Lanca a chynhyrchwr coffi o Golumbia. Byddant i gyd yn bresennol ac yn siarad mewn nifer o’r digwyddiadau drwy Gymru.

Activities taking place in Wales include a fair-trade schools conference in Caerphilly, a banana relay across Ammanford, a world folk music evening in Llandudno and a great trade debate in the National Museum Cardiff, which I have been invited to chair. This has been organised by the UK Fairtrade Foundation and will involve some very interesting participants from the World

Mae’r gweithgareddau sy’n cael eu cynnal yng Nghymru yn cynnwys cynhadledd ysgolion masnach deg yng Nghaerffili, ras gyfnewid gyda bananas drwy Rydaman, noson o gerddoriaeth werin y byd yn Llandudno, a dadl fawr am fasnach yn Amgueddfa Genedlaethol Caerdydd. Yr wyf wedi cael fy ngwahodd i gadeirio’r ddadl honno, sy’n cael ei threfnu gan Sefydliad

55

24/02/2009

Development Movement, the International Policy Network and the author of The Economist’s Tale, Peter Griffiths. They will be debating the question: ‘Can trade be both free and fair?’

Masnach Deg y DU. Bydd y cyfranwyr diddorol yn cynnwys cynrychiolwyr o Fudiad Datblygu’r Byd a’r Rhwydwaith Polisi Rhyngwladol, ynghyd â Peter Griffiths, awdur The Economist’s Tale. Byddant yn trafod y cwestiwn: ‘A all masnachu fod yn rhydd ac eto’n deg?’

Another event that I am attending is a ‘go bananas for fair trade’ challenge at The Co-operative store in Porth on the morning of Saturday, 7 March. This is part of a UK record attempt for the largest numbers of fair-trade bananas eaten by as many people as possible over a 24-hour period, from noon on 6 March to noon on 7 March. Many groups in Wales will be taking part in this challenge and registering the results through the Fairtrade Foundation’s website, and I would encourage everyone, particularly Assembly Members, to get involved.

Digwyddiad arall y byddaf yn bresennol ynddo yw her ‘mynd yn fananas dros fasnach deg’ yn siop Co-op, Porth, fore Sadwrn, 7 Mawrth. Mae’r digwyddiad yn rhan o ymgais drwy’r DU i dorri’r record am y nifer fwyaf o fananas masnach deg i gael eu bwyta gan gynifer o bobl â phosibl dros gyfnod o 24 awr, o hanner dydd ar 6 Mawrth tan hanner dydd ar 7 Mawrth. Bydd nifer o grwpiau yng Nghymru yn cymryd rhan yn yr her, gan gofrestru’r canlyniadau ar wefan y Sefydliad Masnach Deg. Byddwn yn annog pawb, yn enwedig Aelodau’r Cynulliad, i gymryd rhan.

The Fair Trade Wales website has information about the activities taking place over Fairtrade Fortnight, so I ask Assembly Members to give their support to these activities wherever possible. I also wish to take this opportunity to thank Fair Trade Wales and the many hundreds of dedicated and enthusiastic volunteers who promote fair trade to their local communities and businesses.

Mae gwefan Cymru Masnach Deg yn rhoi gwybodaeth am y gweithgareddau sy’n cael eu cynnal dros Bythefnos Masnach Deg, felly, gofynnaf i Aelodau’r Cynulliad gefnogi’r gweithgareddau hyn os bydd modd. Hoffwn hefyd achub ar y cyfle i ddiolch i Masnach Deg Cymru a’r cannoedd o wirfoddolwyr ymroddedig a brwdfrydig sy’n hyrwyddo masnach deg yn eu cymunedau a’u busnesau lleol.

The slogan for this year’s Fairtrade Fortnight is ‘Make it happen. Choose Fairtrade’. Wales is demonstrating how even a small country can take big steps to bring about a big change. Our decision to support and promote awareness of fair trade is making a hugely important impact on the lives of third-world producers and their families.

Slogan Pythefnos Masnach Deg eleni yw ‘Gwnewch iddo ddigwydd. Dewiswch Masnach Deg’. Mae Cymru’n dangos sut y gall gwlad fach hyd yn oed wneud camau mawr er mwyn gwneud gwahaniaeth mawr. Mae ein penderfyniad i gefnogi a hyrwyddo ymwybyddiaeth o fasnach deg yn cael effaith aruthrol o bwysig ar fywydau cynhyrchwyr a’u teuluoedd yn y trydydd byd.

Darren Millar: Diolch am eich datganiad, Weinidog.

Darren Millar: Thank you for your statement, Minister.

During Fairtrade Fortnight, it is important that we take stock of where we are, and I am pleased that you have taken the opportunity to give us an update on where Wales is. I want to take the opportunity to reaffirm my party’s commitment to fair trade. We have always been supportive of the fair-trade initiatives that have been rolled out throughout Wales, and, like you, I was

Yn ystod Pythefnos Masnach Deg, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn sylweddoli yr hyn yr ydym wedi’i gyflawni, ac yr wyf yn falch eich bod wedi achub ar y cyfle i roi gwybod inni am y sefyllfa ddiweddaraf yng Nghymru. Hoffwn fanteisio ar y cyfle i ailbwysleisio ymrwymiad fy mhlaid i fasnach deg. Yr ydym yn wastad wedi cefnogi’r mentrau masnach deg a gyflwynwyd drwy Gymru. Fel

56

24/02/2009

incredibly proud that Wales became the first Fairtrade Nation in June of last year.

chithau, yr oeddwn yn hynod o falch pan ddaeth Cymru’n Wlad Masnach Deg gyntaf y byd ym mis Mehefin y llynedd.

3.30 p.m.

It was an incredible achievement and we need to give credit to Fair Trade Wales for its hard work in achieving this. For many people, fair trade used to mean poor quality products at twice the price. That is not the case now, of course. Things have moved on significantly, thank goodness. People are making a conscious choice to purchase ethically produced products. I am delighted that, in my constituency, as in many others across Wales, there is increasing support for fair-trade products. Both Conwy and Denbighshire County Councils are Fairtrade councils. Schools, colleges, businesses, churches and other places of worship across my constituency, as well as individuals, are buying fair-trade products and embracing the initiative. I assure the Minister and other Assembly Members that should they nip into my office at any time, they will be offered a fair-trade cup of coffee or tea. I cannot promise any bananas, but I could promise the occasional biscuit.

Yr oedd yn gamp aruthrol ac mae’n rhaid canmol Masnach Deg Cymru am ei waith caled yn hyn o beth. I lawer o bobl, arferai Masnach Deg olygu cynnyrch o safon isel am ddwbl y pris. Nid felly y mae erbyn hyn, wrth reswm. Mae pethau wedi gwella’n ddirfawr, diolch i’r nefoedd. Mae pobl yn gwneud dewis bwriadol i brynu cynnyrch a gynhyrchir yn foesol. Yr wyf wrth fy modd bod cefnogaeth gynyddol, yn fy etholaeth, ac mewn mannau eraill ledled Cymru, i gynnyrch masnach deg. Mae Cynghorau Sir Conwy a Dinbych yn gynghorau Masnach Deg. Mae ysgolion, colegau, busnesau, eglwysi ac addoldai eraill yn fy etholaeth, yn ogystal ag unigolion, yn prynu cynnyrch masnach deg ac yn cofleidio’r fenter. Hoffwn sicrhau’r Gweinidog ac Aelodau eraill y Cynulliad, os deuant i’m swyddfa ar unrhyw adeg, y cânt gynnig cwpanaid o goffi neu de masnach deg. Ni allaf addo bananas iddynt, ond gallwn gynnig bisged yn achlysurol.

What assessment have you made, Minister, of the impact of the current economic climate on fair trade in Wales, given that there is usually a premium to be paid for fair-trade products? I accept that there was a 43 per cent increase in fair-trade sales across the UK in 2008, which is encouraging, but what will we do to maintain that pace of increase?

A ydych wedi asesu, Weinidog, effaith yr hinsawdd economaidd sydd ohoni ar fasnach deg yng Nghymru, ac ystyried bod premiwm i’w dalu fel rheol am gynnyrch masnach deg? Yr wyf yn derbyn y bu cynnydd o 43 y cant yng ngwerthiant masnach deg ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig yn 2008, ac mae hynny’n galonogol, ond beth a wnawn er mwyn cynnal y cynnydd hwnnw?

What representations have you made to the UK Government and the EU about removing barriers to free trade? We all know that there are barriers—subsidies and others—that need to be removed. It would be interesting to get your perspective on that.

A ydych wedi cyflwyno sylwadau gerbron Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig a’r Undeb Ewropeaidd ynghylch diddymu rhwystrau i fasnach rydd? Gwyddom oll fod rhwystrau—yn gymorthdaliadau ac eraill—y mae angen eu diddymu. Byddai’n ddiddorol cael eich safbwynt ynghylch hynny.

I accept that advice and guidance are given through the public procurement processes on acquiring ethically produced products. Is there an opportunity to revisit that advice and guidance during Fairtrade Fortnight to see whether public sector procurement processes can be strengthened in order to give a helping

Yr wyf yn derbyn bod cyngor a chanllawiau i’w cael drwy’r prosesau caffael cyhoeddus ynghylch caffael cynnyrch sydd wedi eu cynhyrchu’n foesol. A fydd cyfle inni ailedrych ar y cyngor a’r canllawiau hynny yn ystod Pythefnos Masnach Deg i weld a ellid cryfhau prosesau caffael y sector

57

24/02/2009

hand to sourcing fair-trade products? cyhoeddus er mwyn rhoi help llaw o ran cyrchu cynnyrch masnach deg?

Jane Davidson: I know that we have always had all-party support for this agenda. The previous Assembly Government—strongly led by Rhodri Morgan in taking this initiative forward—deserves a huge amount of credit for working out the terms under which Wales became the world’s first Fairtrade Nation.

Jane Davidson: Gwn fod pob plaid wastad wedi cefnogi’r agenda hon. Mae Llywodraeth flaenorol y Cynulliad—dan arweiniad cadarn Rhodri Morgan wrth fynd â’r fenter hon rhagddi—yn haeddu canmoliaeth fawr am drafod y telerau a alluogodd Cymru i ddod yn Genedl Masnach Deg gyntaf y byd.

The price issue is an interesting one. I would not accept that fair trade is about poor quality, expensive products. However, there is still a common perception that you have to pay more for fair-trade products. It is a perception that we have to disabuse. In one leading supermarket, fair-trade coffee is £1 cheaper than the other leading coffee brands or gourmet brands. It depends on which product or brand you compare it with. That is an important message to get out. You can buy ethically at a reasonable cost and support the world’s poorest farmers and communities. That is a very strong message and that is why we have all-party support for it.

Mae mater y pris yn ddiddorol. Ni fyddwn yn derbyn bod ansawdd masnach deg yn wael a bod y cynnyrch yn ddrud. Fodd bynnag, mae cred gyffredin ar led bod cynnyrch masnach deg yn costio mwy o arian. Mae’n rhaid inni agor llygaid pawb ynghylch y gred honno. Mewn un archfarchnad flaenllaw, mae coffi masnach deg £1 yn rhatach na’r brandiau coffi blaenllaw neu gourmet eraill. Mae’n dibynnu pa gynnyrch neu frand y cymharwch ef â hwy. Mae honno’n neges bwysig i’w lledaenu. Gallwch brynu’n foesol am gost resymol a chefnogi ffermwyr a chymunedau tlotaf y byd. Mae honno’n neges gref iawn a dyna pam y mae pob plaid yn gefnogol.

When we have been looking at procurement, this fair-trade policy is advocated in all sectors in Wales. Organisations have to meet stringent criteria in order to be considered Fairtrade organisations. For example, local authorities need to have fair-trade groups in place, to have passed council resolutions, and to be delivering and promoting fair-trade products. If you consider all of the organisations involved, we are expanding fair-trade opportunities across Wales. We reflect this, of course, in the context of sustainable procurement, because fair-trade products are also about contributing towards sustainability.

Pan yr ydym wedi edrych ar gaffael, mae’r polisi masnach deg hwn yn cael ei bledio gan bob sector yng Nghymru. Mae’n rhaid i gyrff gyflawni meini prawf llym er mwyn cael eu hystyried yn gyrff Masnach Deg. Er enghraifft, mae’n rhaid bod gan awdurdodau lleol grwpiau masnach deg, a’u bod wedi pasio penderfyniadau yn y cyngor ynghylch masnach deg, ac yn cyflenwi ac yn hybu cynnyrch masnach deg. Os ystyriwch bob un o’r cyrff sy’n ymwneud â hyn, yr ydym yn ehangu cyfleoedd masnach deg ar draws Cymru. Yr ydym yn adlewyrchu hyn, wrth reswm, yng nghyd-destun caffael cynaliadwy, oherwydd mae a wnelo cynnyrch masnach deg â chyfrannu at gynaliadwyedd hefyd.

Leanne Wood: Thank you for your statement, Minister. There is no doubt that we all celebrate the fact that Wales has become the first Fairtrade Nation in the world. It is a fantastic achievement, and I am more than happy, on behalf of Plaid Cymru, to congratulate all the organisations involved in making it happen. In particular, I congratulate the fair-trade groups in South Wales Central, namely those at Penarth,

Leanne Wood: Diolch am eich datganiad, Weinidog. Nid oes amheuaeth nad ydym oll yn ymfalchïo yn y ffaith mai Cymru oedd Cenedl Masnach Deg gyntaf y byd. Mae’n gamp aruthrol, ac yr wyf yn falch iawn, ar ran Plaid Cymru, o longyfarch yr holl gyrff a fu ynghlwm wrtho. Yn arbennig felly, yr wyf yn llongyfarch grwpiau masnach deg Canol De Cymru, sef y rheini ym Mhenarth, Llanilltud Fawr, Caerdydd, Y Bont-faen,

58

24/02/2009

Llantwit Major, Cardiff, Cowbridge, Cardiff County Council, the Vale of Glamorgan Council, Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council, as well as the University of Glamorgan and Cardiff University.

Cyngor Sir Caerdydd, Cyngor Bro Morgannwg, Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf, ynghyd â Phrifysgol Morgannwg a Phrifysgol Caerdydd.

However, I am glad that the Minister recognises that the work cannot stop here. Fairtrade Fortnight is an excellent opportunity to raise awareness, not just about what kind of products are available, and where, but also about the politics behind the fair-trade movement. I am sure that you will agree that, although fair-trade products are more widely available today than they have been, there are too many communities in Wales that lack shops or outlets selling fair-trade produce. Towns and villages with a branch of the Co-operative are well-served, but unfortunately, it does not have outlets everywhere. I would therefore be grateful to know what the Government can do to encourage and enable more food outlets to stock fair-trade produce, particularly small, independent corner shops and the like. Reaching out to the large retailers is relatively easy, but reaching the small, independent shops will, I suspect, be more of a challenge.

Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn falch bod y Gweinidog yn cydnabod na all y gwaith ddod i ben fel y mae. Mae Pythefnos Masnach Deg yn gyfle gwych i godi ymwybyddiaeth, nid yn unig ynghylch pa fathau o gynnyrch sydd ar gael, ac ymhle, ond hefyd ynghylch y wleidyddiaeth sydd y tu ôl i’r mudiad masnach deg. Yr wyf yn sicr y cytunwch, er bod mwy o gynnyrch masnach deg ar gael heddiw nag y bu, mae gormod o gymunedau o lawer yng Nghymru lle nad oes siopau nac allfeydd yn gwerthu cynnyrch masnach deg. Mae trefi a phentrefi lle mae canghennau o siop y Co-operative yn cael gwasanaeth da, ond yn anffodus, nid oes allfeydd ym mhob man. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar felly o glywed beth gall y Llywodraeth ei wneud i annog a galluogi mwy o allfeydd bwyd i gadw cynnyrch masnach deg, yn enwedig siopau cornel bach, annibynnol a’u tebyg. Mae’n gymharol hawdd estyn allan at fanwerthwyr mawr, ond tybiaf y bydd yn annos cyrraedd siopau bach, annibynnol.

You said that around a quarter of the world’s population still lives in extreme poverty on less than $1 per day. That figure could well increase as more people are displaced as a result of climate change, the rise in global food prices, and war. It is a shocking statistic that a quarter of the world’s population is in extreme poverty, and shows that we cannot, and must not, rest on our laurels.

Dywedoch fod tua chwarter poblogaeth y byd yn byw mewn tlodi enbyd o hyd ar lai nag $1 y dydd. Gallai’r ffigur hwnnw gynyddu os caiff rhagor o bobl eu disodli gan y newid yn yr hinsawdd, y cynnydd byd eang ym mhrisiau bwyd, a rhyfeloedd. Mae’n ystadegyn syfrdanol bod chwarter poblogaeth y byd yn byw mewn tlodi enbyd, ac mae’n dangos na allwn orffwys ar ein bri, ac yn wir rhaid inni ochel rhag gwneud hynny.

Jane Davidson: I was reminded of the challenges of the climate change agenda in the context of fair trade at a recent debate with Oxfam. The Oxfam representative made it clear that climate change will not make poverty history, but will make it permanent. For example, I have outlined to Members a partnership in Uganda, supported by the Assembly Government, that currently grows coffee; if the area experiences more than a 2 degrees Celsius increase as a result of global warming, coffee will no longer be able to be grown in that region. These are the major challenges that we have to look at. We cannot

Jane Davidson: Fe’m hatgoffwyd ynghylch heriau agenda’r newid yn yr hinsawdd yng nghyd-destun masnach deg mewn trafodaeth ddiweddar gydag Oxfam. Dywedodd cynrychiolydd Oxfam na wnaiff y newid yn yr hinsawdd wneud tlodi’n hanes, ond yn hytrach bydd yn ei wneud yn beth parhaol. Er enghraifft, yr wyf wedi sôn wrth yr Aelodau am bartneriaeth yn Uganda, a gefnogir gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, sy’n tyfu coffi ar hyn o bryd; petai tymheredd yr ardal yn codi mwy na 2 radd Celsius oherwydd cynhesu byd eang, ni fyddai’n bosibl tyfu coffi yn y rhanbarth hwnnw mwyach. Dyma’r heriau

59

24/02/2009

divorce fair trade from climate change—we have to look at that relationship as a whole.

mawr y bydd yn rhaid inni eu hystyried. Ni allwn wahanu masnach deg a’r newid yn yr hinsawdd—mae’n rhaid inni ystyried y berthynas yn ei chyfanrwydd.

In terms of the Fairtrade mark for communities, towns and cities, one of the criteria is that fair-trade products must be used by a number of local businesses—estate agents, hairdressers, and so on—in addition to community organisations. That is important in getting over the message in the context of small shops. For universities, fair-trade foods have to be available in all campus shops, in all cafes, restaurants and bars on campus, and must be served at all meetings hosted by the university or college and its student union.

O ran marc Masnach Deg ar gyfer cymunedau, trefi a dinasoedd, mae un o’r meini prawf yn dweud y dylai nifer o fusnesau lleol fod yn defnyddio cynnyrch masnach deg—arwerthwyr tai, siopau trin gwallt, ac ati—yn ogystal â mudiadau cymunedol. Mae hynny’n bwysig o ran cyfleu’r neges yng nghyd-destun siopau bach. O ran prifysgolion, mae’n rhaid bod bwydydd masnach deg ar gael yn siopau’r campws i gyd, ym mhob caffi, pob bwyty a phob bar ar y campws, ac yn cael eu gweini ym mhob cyfarfod a drefnir gan y brifysgol neu’r coleg ac undeb y myfyrwyr.

There is a commitment to campaign for increased consumption of these products, and I mention universities because all our universities in Wales have achieved Fairtrade status as of this Fairtrade Fortnight. They send out important messages to the consumers of the future. People will develop their habits as adults at university, and so having that strong ethical input is important.

Mae ymrwymiad i ymgyrchu dros y cynhyrchion hyn i gael mwy o bobl i’w defnyddio, ac yr wyf wedi crybwyll y prifysgolion oherwydd mae pob un o brifysgolion Cymru wedi ennill statws Masnach Deg erbyn y Bythefnos Masnach Deg hon. Maent yn anfon negeseuon pwysig i ddefnyddwyr y dyfodol. Mae pobl yn datblygu arferion oes yn y brifysgol, ac felly mae mewnbwn moesol cadarn yn bwysig.

Mick Bates: I join others in congratulating the Government on its investment in fair trade, with Wales becoming the first Fairtrade Nation, and on the continued efforts to promote fair trade in Wales. Llanidloes, in my constituency, became one of the first Fairtrade towns, which met with great approval. The international dimension of this brings great credit to the Assembly and to Wales as a whole. I hope that this will continue, particularly in light of your last comments in response to Leanne Wood regarding climate change and its impact. It may be useful for us to learn more about the impact that fair trade has on those countries that produce fair-trade goods to ensure that the rights of women and children in work are addressed by the Fairtrade charter. That, in turn, will lead us to examine some of the practices and pricing in this country, which may need attention.

Mick Bates: Ymunaf ag eraill i longyfarch y Llywodraeth am fuddsoddi mewn masnach deg, ac mai Cymru yw’r Genedl Masnach Deg gyntaf, a’r ymdrechion parhaus i hybu masnach deg yng Nghymru. Daeth Llanidloes, yn fy etholaeth, yn un o’r trefi Masnach Deg cyntaf, a bu cymeradwyaeth fawr i hynny. Mae’r elfen ryngwladol sydd i’r mater hwn yn dwyn bri i’r Cynulliad ac i Gymru gyfan. Gobeithiaf y bydd hyn yn parhau, yn enwedig yng ngoleuni eich sylwadau diwethaf wrth ateb Leanne Wood ynglŷn â’r newid yn yr hinsawdd a’i effeithiau. Efallai y byddai’n ddefnyddiol inni ddysgu mwy ynghylch effaith masnach deg ar y gwledydd hynny sy’n cynhyrchu nwyddau masnach deg er mwyn sicrhau bod hawliau merched a phlant yn y gwaith yn cael sylw drwy siarter Masnach Deg. Bydd hynny, yn ei dro, yn peri inni archwilio rhai o’r arferion a’r prisiau yn y wlad hon, y mae angen inni roi sylw iddynt o bosibl.

3.40 p.m.

60

24/02/2009

Overall, it is good that we have done this. However, I would like to see more fair-trade products sold. That is possible. Leanne Wood said that small businesses need to be encouraged to sell fair-trade products, but, as a realist, I know that many people shop with large retailers. We could target those retailers to increase the number of fair-trade products sold in Wales. I have suggested previously, Minister, that by whatever means possible, whether a voluntary scheme or whatever, you could encourage our major retailers to provide details of the volume of fair-trade products that they sell each year in their stores. The Co-operative store is very good at that, but let us see what Asda, Tesco, Morrisons, Sainsbury and Waitrose do. That would aid the development of fair-trade products in this country and enhance the green credentials of our major retailers, which, very often, do a little bit but then everything fades away after a bit of publicity. Fair trade offers a way for us to use the large retailers to enhance that.

Yn gyffredinol, bu gwneud hyn yn beth da. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn weld mwy o nwyddau masnach deg yn cael eu gwerthu. Mae hynny’n bosibl. Dywedodd Leanne Wood fod angen annog busnesau bach i werthu cynnyrch masnach deg, ond, fel realydd, gwn fod llawer o bobl yn siopa mewn siopau manwerthu mawr. Gallem dargedu’r manwerthwyr hynny er mwyn cynyddu faint o gynnyrch masnach deg a werthir yng Nghymru. Yr wyf wedi awgrymu o’r blaen, Weinidog, drwy ba ddulliau bynnag a fo’n bosibl, boed yn gynllun gwirfoddol neu beth bynnag, y gallech annog ein prif fanwerthwyr i ddarparu manylion o ran faint o gynnyrch masnach deg y byddant yn eu gwerthu bob blwyddyn yn eu siopau. Mae siop y Co-operative yn dda iawn am wneud hynny, ond gadewch inni weld yr hyn a all Asda, Tesco, Morrisons, Sainsbury a Waitrose ei wneud. Byddai hynny’n cynorthwyo datblygu cynnyrch masnach deg yn y wlad hon ac yn gwella delwedd gwyrdd ein prif fanwerthwyr, sydd yn aml yn gwneud ychydig bach ond mae popeth yn pylu ar ôl ychydig o gyhoeddusrwydd. Mae masnach deg yn cynnig ffordd inni ddefnyddio’r manwerthwyr mawr i wella ar hynny.

I praised the international dimension of this, but I am painfully aware of what happens to goods and produce in Wales. I cite my campaign of many years to bring in fair trading for Welsh products, particularly Welsh milk. Minister, can you relate some of the particular rights and issues surrounding the Fairtrade logo to some of our products? In ‘One Wales’, there is mention of a local food procurement initiative, which I believe would improve the economy of rural Wales. Welsh milk has seen a decline in its value. Only recently, a major company—Arla Foods—cut the price and Dairy Crest has followed suit, as has Robert Wiseman Dairies. It is time that we balanced internationalism, to some extent, against what happens with some of our products. I hope that you will be able to address that in your response.

Canmolais yr elfen ryngwladol sydd i hyn, ond gwn yn iawn yr hyn sy’n digwydd i nwyddau a chynnyrch yng Nghymru. Cyfeiriaf at yr ymgyrch a fu ar waith gennyf ers blynyddoedd lawer i gyflwyno masnach deg ar gyfer cynnyrch o Gymru, yn enwedig llaeth o Gymru. Weinidog, a allwch gysylltu rhai o’r hawliau a’r materion neilltuol sy’n ymwneud â logo Masnach Deg â rhai o’n cynnyrch ni? Yng ‘Nghymru’n Un’ mae sôn am fenter caffael bwyd lleol, y credaf y byddai’n gwella economi Cymru wledig. Mae gwerth llaeth Cymru wedi gostwng. Yn ddiweddar iawn, bu i gwmni mawr—Arla Foods—ostwng y pris a gwnaeth Dairy Crest yr un peth, fel y gwnaeth Robert Wiseman Dairies. Mae’n bryd inni gydbwyso’r elfen gydwladol, i ryw raddau, gyda’r hyn sy’n digwydd i rai o’n cynnyrch. Gobeithiaf y medrwch roi sylw i hynny yn eich ymateb.

Finally, I am much taken with the competition to eat bananas. I can see that, potentially, even among the Members who remain in the Chamber now, there could be a

Yn olaf, fe’m gogleisiwyd gan y gystadleuaeth bwyta bananas. Gallaf weld, o bosibl, a hynny hyd yn oed ymhlith yr Aelodau sydd yn y Siambr ar hyn o bryd, y

61

24/02/2009

great banana-eating team. If the Minister is willing to lead it, I am sure that we could soon provide brother Brynle, Carl Sargeant and me, as rather large-framed people who, I am sure, would do you proud in such a competition.

gellid ffurfio tîm gwych i fwyta bananas. Os yw’r Gweinidog yn fodlon ei arwain, yr wyf yn sicr y gallem gynnig y brawd Brynle, Carl Sargeant a minnau, fel gwŷr corfforol a fyddai, yr wyf yn sicr, yn destun balchder i chi mewn cystadleuaeth o’r fath.

Jane Davidson: The international dimension is incredibly important and is the reason for the Wales for Africa international sustainable development initiative. It is that initiative that also helps to support the fair-trade agenda. However, fair trade goes much wider than our Wales for Africa agenda. It is critical that we look at the concept of sustainable development as the single organising principle for what we do and apply that across the piece.

Jane Davidson: Mae’r elfen ryngwladol yn hynod bwysig a dyna’r rheswm dros fenter datblygu cynaliadwy ryngwladol Cymru o blaid Affrica. Mae’r fenter honno hefyd yn helpu cefnogi agenda masnach deg. Fodd bynnag, mae masnach deg yn beth llawer ehangach nag agenda Cymru o blaid Affrica. Mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn edrych ar gysyniad datblygu cynaliadwy fel yr egwyddor drefnyddol sengl ar gyfer yr hyn a wnawn a chymhwyso hynny at bethau’n gyffredinol.

One critical issue when you talk about the rights of women or children is that, in order for a producer to qualify as a Fairtrade producer, it has to demonstrate that it does well by its staff. It acquires a social premium that is then used for a variety of things, including renewable energy. We have seen that social premium turned into renewable energy projects in some countries, as well as into the more traditional health and education opportunities.

Mae’n allweddol wrth ystyried hawliau menywod a phlant, er mwyn i gynhyrchydd gael ei ystyried yn gynhyrchydd Masnach Deg, ei fod yn gallu dangos ei fod yn trin ei staff yn dda. Mae’n cael premiwm cymdeithasol a ddefnyddir ar gyfer amrywiaeth o bethau yn sgil hynny, gan gynnwys ynni adnewyddadwy. Gwelsom y premiwm cymdeithasol yn cael ei droi’n brosiectau ynni adnewyddadwy mewn rhai gwledydd, yn ogystal ag yn gyfleoedd iechyd ac addysg mwy traddodiadol.

The Farmers’ Union of Wales strongly supports the message that, if you cannot buy local produce, you should buy fairly traded produce. That is a strong message that I hope all those who represent the land-use sector in Wales can support, because these are not generally competitive products: we do not grow coffee, tea or bananas here. Although there are now some 3,000 fairly traded products available, an agenda that runs those two aspects side-by-side has huge potential. We are committed to delivering our ‘One Wales’ commitment in the context of a food strategy, and my colleague, Elin Jones, and I would urge you to watch this space. If any Members would like to join me in Porth on Saturday, 7 March for the end of the 24 hours of banana eating, I would be delighted to see them.

Mae Undeb Amaethwyr Cymru yn gryf o blaid y neges y dylech brynu cynnyrch masnach deg os na allwch brynu cynnyrch lleol. Mae honno’n neges gref y gobeithiaf y gall pawb sy’n cynrychioli’r sector defnydd tir yng Nghymru ei chefnogi, oherwydd nid yw’r rhain yn gyffredinol yn nwyddau sy’n cystadlu yn erbyn ei gilydd: nid ydym yn tyfu coffi, te na bananas yma. Er bod tua 3,000 o nwyddau masnach deg ar gael bellach, mae potensial aruthrol i agenda sy’n gosod y ddwy agwedd hynny ochr yn ochr â’i gilydd. Yr ydym wedi ymrwymo i wireddu ein hymrwymiad yn ‘Cymru’n Un’ yng nghyd-destun strategaeth fwyd, a byddai fy nghyd-Aelod, Elin Jones, a minnau yn eich annog i ddisgwyl rhagor am hynny maes o law. Petai unrhyw Aelodau yn hoffi ymuno â mi yn y Porth ddydd Sadwrn, 7 Mawrth ar gyfer diwedd y 24 awr o fwyta bananas, byddai’n bleser gennyf eu gweld.

62

24/02/2009

Lesley Griffiths: Thank you for your statement, Minister. As you said, Wales is setting the pace globally by becoming the first Fairtrade Nation in the world. The coming two weeks will have an added significance and pride for the many thousands of people up and down Wales who support fair trade by purchasing products and promoting the cause. When it comes to fair trade, we are no strangers to groundbreaking in Wales. On 16 July 2003, Wrexham became the first fair-trade county borough to be established in Wales, and, a year later, we saw the launch of the Wrexham fair-trade guide. It would be remiss of me not to mention and pay tribute to the many volunteers, supporters and members of the Wrexham Fairtrade Coalition today. The movement has a great history, and there is a huge amount of pride in what has been achieved locally in my constituency of Wrexham. Minister, do you agree that Wales is really into the fair-trade habit with that kind of local support all over Wales, despite the economic downturn, and that, as a consequence, Wales will continue its support and campaign to achieve fairness for producers and farmers in developing countries?

Lesley Griffiths: Diolch am eich datganiad, Weinidog. Fel y dywedasoch, mae Cymru’n arwain y ffordd yn fyd-eang drwy ddod yn Genedl Masnach Deg gyntaf y byd. Bydd gan y pythefnos nesaf fwy o arwyddocâd a bydd yn destun mwy o falchder i’r miloedd lawer o bobl ledled Cymru sy’n cefnogi masnach deg drwy brynu nwyddau a hyrwyddo’r achos. Nid dyma’r tro cyntaf inni dorri tir newydd o ran masnach deg yng Nghymru. Ar 16 Gorffennaf 2003, cyhoeddwyd mai Wrecsam oedd y fwrdeistref sirol masnach deg gyntaf i gael ei sefydlu yng Nghymru, a, flwyddyn yn ddiweddarach, gwelsom lansio canllaw masnach deg Wrecsam. Byddai’n esgeulus imi beidio â chrybwyll a rhoi teyrnged i’r llu o wirfoddolwyr, cefnogwyr ac aelodau Cynghrair Masnach Deg Wrecsam heddiw. Mae gan y mudiad hanes gwych, a cheir balchder aruthrol yn yr hyn sydd wedi’i gyflawni’n lleol yn fy etholaeth i, sef Wrecsam. Weinidog, a ydych yn cytuno bod Cymru wedi magu’r arfer o brynu nwyddau masnach deg o ddifrif gyda chefnogaeth leol o’r fath ledled Cymru, er gwaethaf y dirywiad economaidd, ac, o ganlyniad, y bydd Cymru’n parhau â’i chefnogaeth ac yn ymgyrchu i sicrhau tegwch i gynhyrchwyr a ffermwyr mewn gwledydd datblygol?

Jane Davidson: It is true, and towns like Wrexham very much lead the way. Back in 2003, Fairtrade Fortnight would have been seen as an unusual initiative. Like you, I commend all the volunteers who have given of their time and effort over the years to bring fair trade to the mainstream, as it is now. The UK is one of the world’s leading fair-trade markets: 20 per cent of roast and ground coffee and 20 per cent of bananas sold in the UK are now from a fair-trade source. We have seen products branded with the Fairtrade Foundation’s trademark almost reach the £0.5 billion mark in 2007, and their value has been doubling approximately every two years, so we are still seeing a major opportunity for retailers to sell a product that is ethical. Therefore, I commend the people of Wrexham for continuing to support fair trade and all those across Wales with whom Members are working to ensure that when we have the statement on Fairtrade Fortnight next year, we will have carried on demonstrating that rapid improvement.

Jane Davidson: Mae’n wir, ac mae trefi fel Wrecsam yn arwain y blaen i raddau helaeth. Yn ôl yn 2003, byddai Pythefnos Masnach Deg wedi cael ei hystyried yn fenter anarferol. Fel chi, yr wyf yn canmol yr holl wirfoddolwyr sydd wedi treulio’u hamser a’u hegni dros y blynyddoedd yn dod â masnach deg i sylw’r cyhoedd ar raddfa eang, fel sy’n wir yn awr. Y DU yw un o brif farchnadoedd masnach deg y byd: mae 20 y cant o goffi rhost a choffi wedi’i falu ac 20 y cant o fananas a werthir yn y DU bellach yn dod o darddiad masnach deg. Yr ydym wedi gweld nwyddau ac arnynt nod masnach y Sefydliad Masnach Deg bron â chyrraedd lefel o £0.5 biliwn yn 2007, ac mae eu gwerth wedi bod yn dyblu, fwy neu lai, bob dwy flynedd, felly yr ydym yn dal i weld cyfle o bwys i adwerthwyr werthu nwyddau moesegol. Felly yr wyf yn canmol pobl Wrecsam am barhau i gefnogi masnach deg, a phawb ledled Cymru y mae’r Aelodau’n gweithio gyda hwy i sicrhau, pan fyddwn yn cael y datganiad ar Bythefnos Masnach Deg y flwyddyn nesaf, y byddwn wedi parhau i ddangos y cynnydd

63

24/02/2009

chwim hwnnw.

Lorraine Barrett: Thank you for the statement, Minister. Will you welcome the Assembly Commission’s commitment to fair trade, and to Wales attaining Fairtrade Nation status? We worked hard last year to ensure that our caterers came on board, and Charlton House, as I am sure you will agree, works extremely hard to provide as many fairly traded products as possible in its catering and in the refreshments provided in the Senedd and in the cafe. I remind Members that they are due to attend a brunch in the Senedd on 6 March, at which there will be smoothies and all sorts made with fairly traded bananas.

Lorraine Barrett: Diolch am y datganiad, Weinidog. A wnewch chi groesawu ymrwymiad Comisiwn y Cynulliad i fasnach deg, ac i Gymru’n ennill statws Cenedl Masnach Deg? Buom yn gweithio’n galed y llynedd i sicrhau bod ein harlwywyr yn cyfrannu at y nod, ac mae Charlton House, fel y cytunwch, yr wyf yn siŵr, yn gweithio’n hynod o galed i ddarparu cynifer o nwyddau masnach deg â phosibl yn ei wasanaeth arlwyo ac yn y lluniaeth a ddarperir yn y Senedd ac yn y caffi. Hoffwn atgoffa’r Aelodau eu bod wedi cael eu gwahodd i frecwast hwyr yn y Senedd ar 6 Mawrth, lle ceir smwddis a phob math o bethau wedi’u gwneud o fananas masnach deg.

I was going to ask the question that Leanne asked about businesses. Although you have no control over private businesses, I wanted to ask what you can do, as a Government, to encourage and support businesses that want to sell more fairly traded products, but I think that you have covered that, and Mick also raised it.

Yr oeddwn i’n bwriadu gofyn y cwestiwn a ofynnodd Leanne ynghylch busnesau. Er nad oes gennych ddim rheolaeth dros fusnesau preifat, yr oedd arnaf eisiau gofyn beth y gallwch chi, fel Llywodraeth, ei wneud i annog a chefnogi busnesau sydd eisiau gwerthu rhagor o nwyddau masnach deg, ond credaf eich bod wedi ateb hynny, a chododd Mick y pwynt hefyd.

3.50 p.m.

Jane Davidson: When the decision was made to go for Fairtrade Nation status, it is important to note that that was not just about the Government but about the National Assembly for Wales, too. The agreement that we have made as individual Members and through our commissioners in the context of the National Assembly for Wales is to use fairly traded products, including tea, coffee, sugar and biscuits, at internal meetings, to make an annual statement of opinion in support of fair trade, to ensure that fairly traded products are available at all catering outlets, and to promote Fairtrade Fortnight actively each year. The Assembly Commission and Assembly Members do that, and we need to continue to use the opportunity of Fairtrade Fortnight to demonstrate that the Assembly and the Government in Wales are leading by example.

Jane Davidson: Pan wnaethpwyd y penderfyniad i geisio ennill statws Cenedl Masnach Deg, mae’n bwysig nodi nad dim ond y Llywodraeth oedd ynghlwm â hynny, ond Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru hefyd. Y cytundeb yr ydym ni wedi’i wneud fel Aelodau unigol a drwy ein comisiynwyr yng nghyd-destun Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yw defnyddio nwyddau masnach deg, gan gynnwys te, coffi, siwgr a bisgedi, mewn cyfarfodydd mewnol, gwneud datganiad barn blynyddol i gefnogi masnach deg, sicrhau bod nwyddau masnach deg ar gael yn yr holl fannau arlwyo, a mynd ati’n weithgar i hyrwyddo Pythefnos Masnach Deg bob blwyddyn. Mae Comisiwn y Cynulliad ac Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn gwneud hynny, ac mae angen inni barhau i ddefnyddio’r cyfle y mae Pythefnos Masnach Deg yn ei gynnig i ddangos bod y Cynulliad a’r Llywodraeth yng Nghymru yn arwain drwy osod esiampl i eraill.

64

24/02/2009

Datganiad am Gnydau GMStatement on GM Crops

Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig (Elin Jones): Mae agwedd ragofalus Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru tuag at gynhyrchu cnydau a addaswyd yn enetig ar raddfa fasnachol yn cael ei thanlinellu yn ein hymrwymiad yn ‘Cymru’n Un’ i gyfyngu cnydau GM i’r eithaf yng Nghymru. Mae cytundeb barn am hyn ar draws pob plaid yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, ac mae’r safbwynt hwn wedi’i gefnogi ers tro byd. Bydd Aelodau yn ymwybodol o’r ffaith nad oes gennym unrhyw bwerau i wahardd cnydau GM ac yn gwybod ein bod wedi mabwysiadu’r polisi mwyaf cyfyngol sy’n gyson â’n rhwymedigaethau cyfreithiol.

The Minister for Rural Affairs (Elin Jones): The Welsh Assembly Government’s precautionary approach to genetically modified crop commercialisation is underlined through our ‘One Wales’ commitment to maximise restrictions on GM crops in Wales. This position has been supported by a long-standing consensus across all parties in the National Assembly. Members will be familiar with the fact that we have no powers to ban GM crops and that our position has been to adopt the most restrictive policy compatible with our legal obligations.

Ym mis Ebrill 2008, cyhoeddwyd adroddiad gan yr Asesiad Rhyngwladol o Wybodaeth Amaethyddol, Gwyddoniaeth a Thechnoleg ar gyfer Datblygu, sy’n cefnogi arddel agwedd ragofalus tuag at GM. Cyfrannodd dros 400 o wyddonwyr o bob cwr o’r byd at yr adroddiad hwnnw. Mae’r arbenigwyr hyn yn parhau i drafod manteision a bygythiadau posibl GM, ac mae gwaith ymchwil yn dangos lefelau amrywiol o ran y cynnydd a’r gostyngiad mewn cynhyrchiant. Bu i’r adroddiad rybuddio bod y gwaith o asesu’r dechnoleg hon ar ei hôl hi o’i gymharu â’r broses o’i datblygu, sydd yn ein gwneud yn fwy ansicr ynghylch y peryglon i’r amgylchedd, i iechyd pobl ac i’n heconomi.

A report by the International Assessment of Agricultural Knowledge, Science and Technology for Development published in April 2008 supports a precautionary approach to GM. The report is the product of contributions from more than 400 scientists from around the world. These experts continue to debate the potential benefits and threats of GM with research showing that there have been variable yield gains and declines. The report warned that the assessment of this technology is lagging behind the process of its development, thereby increasing our uncertainty about the risks to the environment, human health and our economy.

Mae ein hagwedd ragofalus, felly, heb newid ac yr wyf heddiw yn cyhoeddi fy nghynlluniau i gynnal ymgynghoriad llawn ar drefniadau ar gyfer cydfodoli. Mae’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd wedi datgan na ddylid diystyru unrhyw ffurf ar amaethyddiaeth yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, boed yn ffermio GM, yn ffermio traddodiadol neu’n ffermio organig. Yr wyf felly yn bwriadu cynnal ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus mewn ychydig wythnosau yn amlinellu cynigion i roi trefniadau cydfodoli ar waith rhwng cnydau GM, cnydau traddodiadol a chnydau confensiynol yng Nghymru.

Our precautionary approach therefore remains unchanged and, today, I am announcing my plans to undertake a full public consultation on co-existence arrangements. The European Commission has stated that no form of agriculture, whether GM, traditional, or organic, should be excluded in the European Union. I therefore intend to publish a public consultation in a few weeks’ time setting out proposals to put in place co-existence arrangements between GM, traditional and conventional crops in Wales.

Mae cydfodoli yn cyfeirio at allu ffermwyr i wneud dewis ymarferol rhwng cynhyrchu cnydau GM, cnydau confensiynol a chnydau

Co-existence refers to the ability of farmers to make a practical choice between GM, conventional and organic crop production, in

65

24/02/2009

organig, gan gydymffurfio â’r gofynion cyfreithiol ar gyfer labelu, a’r meini prawf o ran purdeb. Ni allwn ddiystyru’r posibilrwydd bod cnydau GM yn bresennol mewn cnydau confensiynol ac organig, ac efallai bod oblygiadau masnachol ar gyfer y ffermwyr sydd felly wedi’u heffeithio. Mae angen mesurau addas wrth dyfu, cynaeafu, cludo, storio a phrosesu cnydau er mwyn sicrhau cydfodolaeth. Nod mesurau cydfodoli yw amddiffyn ffermwyr sy’n cynhyrchu cnydau confensiynol ac organig rhag yr anfanteision economaidd a allant ddeillio o gael eu halogi’n ddamweiniol gan gnydau GM.

compliance with the legal obligations for labelling and purity criteria. The possibility of the presence of GM crops in conventional and organic crops cannot be dismissed, and may have commercial implications for the farmers whose crops are affected. Consequently, suitable measures during cultivation, harvest, transport, storage and processing are necessary to ensure co-existence. Co-existence measures aim to protect farmers of conventional and organic crops from the possible economic disadvantages of accidental contamination by GM crops.

Gellir gweld ein safbwynt o gyfyngu ar dyfu cnydau GM yng Nghymru drwy’r dull yr ydym yn bwriadu ei fabwysiadu o weithredu’r agweddau GM ar y gyfarwyddeb atebolrwydd amgylcheddol. Diben y gyfarwyddeb honno yw atal niwed mawr i’r amgylchedd drwy orfodi busnesau sy’n llygru i dalu am gostau atal ac adfer. Yn sgîl ein hymgynghoriad cyhoeddus y llynedd ar y gyfarwyddeb atebolrwydd amgylcheddol, bydd y cynigion yr ydym wedi’u gwneud mewn perthynas â’r agweddau GM ar y gyfarwyddeb yn dod i rym cyn bo hir drwy ddeddfwriaeth ddomestig. Bydd hynny’n sicrhau mwy o amddiffyniad i’n hamgylchedd yng Nghymru drwy wneud y tyfwyr a’r cwmnïau biodechnoleg, sef deiliaid y trwyddedau, yn gyfrifol am unrhyw niwed i’r amgylchedd nad oes modd ei ragweld y gallai cnwd GM ei achosi.

Our restrictive stance on GM crop cultivation in Wales can be seen through the approach that we intend to take on the implementation of the GM aspects of the environmental liability directive. The directive is aimed at preventing significant environmental damage by forcing businesses that pollute to pay for the costs of prevention and remediation. Following our public consultation on the environmental liability directive last year, the proposals that we have made in relation to the GM aspects of the directive will shortly be put into effect through domestic legislation. This will give added protection to our environment in Wales by making the growers and biotechnology companies, namely the permit holders, responsible for any unforeseeable damage to the environment that a GM crop might cause.

Y bwriad yw sicrhau bod y mesurau cydfodoli o dan reolaeth lem yng Nghymru. Bydd ein mesurau arfaethedig yn fwy cyfyngol na’r rheiny sy’n cael eu hargymell yn Lloegr a Gogledd Iwerddon. Hoffwn gymryd y cyfle i amlinellu rhai o brif nodweddion ein cynigion ar gyfer mesurau cydfodoli.

The intention is for co-existence to be tightly regulated in Wales. Our proposed measures will be more restrictive than those proposed in England and Northern Ireland. I would like to take a few moments to outline some of the key features of our co-existence proposals.

O ran trothwyon ar gyfer hadau, byddwn yn gwahodd sylwadau ynghylch a ddylid cadw at y trothwy presennol ar gyfer hadau o 0.1 y cant, gan fod llawer o wledydd yr Undeb Ewropeaidd wedi sefydlu pellteroedd gwahanu ar y sail honno.

On seed thresholds, we will seek views on whether the present 0.1 per cent default seed threshold should be retained, as in many EU member states, where separation distances have been established on that basis.

O ran atebolrwydd, byddwn yn cynnwys opsiynau ar gyfer gorfodi atebolrwydd llym

On liability, we will include options for imposing strict liability on GM crop growers

66

24/02/2009

ar dyfwyr cnydau GM ac yn cyflwyno cynllun digolledu gwirfoddol wedi’i ariannu gan y diwydiant. Efallai hefyd y bydd modd ystyried opsiwn ar gyfer cyflwyno cynllun digolledu statudol.

and introducing a voluntary industry-funded compensation scheme. Consideration may also be given to an option for a statutory redress mechanism.

O ran parthau rhydd o GM, byddwn yn gwahodd sylwadau ar ba mor briodol y byddai gwaharddiad statudol ar dyfu cnydau GM ym mhob un o’r ardaloedd cadwraeth statudol yng Nghymru. O ran cael cofrestr o gnydau GM, byddwn yn cynnig cofrestr genedlaethol statudol y bydd modd i’r cyhoedd ei gweld. I dyfu cnydau GM, bydd angen cofrestru â Llywodraeth y Cynulliad dri mis cyn plannu’r cnydau. Bydd disgwyl i dyfwyr ymgynghori â’u cymdogion er mwyn sicrhau eu bod yn cadw at y pellteroedd gwahanu, ac yr ydym yn cynnig hefyd y bydd gofyniad statudol i roi gwybod am hyn i bobl sy’n byw yn y cyffiniau ac i gymdogion sy’n dirfeddianwyr. Cynigir y dylid ei wneud yn ofyniad statudol i gynhyrchwyr GM gadw cofnodion ac i bawb sy’n bwriadu tyfu cnydau GM ar ffermydd gael hyfforddiant ar sut i’w trin.

On GM-free zones, we will seek views on the desirability of a statutory prohibition on GM crop cultivation in all statutory conservation areas. On a GM crop register, we will propose a statutory national register with public access. To grow GM crops will require registration with the Welsh Assembly Government three months prior to planting. In addition to the implicit need for consultation with neighbours, in order to ensure compliance with separation distances, it is also proposed that there will be a statutory requirement to inform people living in the vicinity and neighbouring landowners. It is proposed that record keeping should be a statutory requirement for GM producers, as will training for all on-farm handlers who have any intent to grow GM crops.

Bydd y mesurau caeau y byddaf yn eu cynnig yn seiliedig ar faint cae âr ar gyfartaledd yng Nghymru, sef llai na 3 ha. Byddaf hefyd yn cynnig pennu pellteroedd ynysu sylweddol rhwng cnydau GM a chnydau rhydd o GM, ynghyd â pharthau clustogi sy’n cynnwys rhwystrau paill neu faglau.

The field measures that I will be proposing are based on our average arable field size in Wales of fewer than 3 ha. I will also propose significant isolation distances between GM and non-GM crops and buffer zones, incorporating pollen barriers or traps.

Yr wyf yn ymwybodol fod ffactorau fel poblogaeth y byd yn tyfu, newid yn yr hinsawdd a chostau bwyd cynyddol wedi arwain at bryderon ynghylch diogelu’r cyflenwad bwyd yn y dyfodol. Mae mwy a mwy o drafod am y rôl y gall cnydau GM eu chwarae yn y broses o sicrhau diogelwch y cyflenwad bwyd. Nid wyf yn credu bod tystiolaeth glir fod gan gnydau GM ran i’w chwarae yn hyn o beth. Serch hynny, yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd pob plaid yn y Siambr hon yn ystyried y drafodaeth hon yn ddwys.

I am conscious that a growing world population, climate change and increasing food costs have given rise to concerns regarding future food security. The debate on the potential role that GM crops have to play in meeting food security has increased. I do not believe that there is any clear evidence that GM crops do have a role to play. However, all parties in the Chamber will, no doubt, be reflecting in depth on this debate.

Mae fy swyddogion yn parhau i gydweithio ag Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig mewn perthynas â’r gyllideb ymchwil a datblygu y mae DEFRA yn ei rheoli yng Nghymru a Lloegr. Mae hyn yn cynnwys GM a’r rhaglenni bwyd a ffermio cynaliadwy. Mae fy swyddogion hefyd yn

My officials continue to liaise proactively with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in relation to the DEFRA-managed England-and-Wales research and development budget. This includes GM and sustainable food and farming programmes. My officials are also engaged with the UK

67

24/02/2009

gweithio ar raglen Foresight y Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig sy’n cynnwys materion defnydd tir a diogelu’r cyflenwad bwyd. Bydd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn parhau i adolygu’r dystiolaeth, fel y gwnawn ym mhob maes polisi, i sicrhau fod ein hagwedd at GM yn dal i fod yn gytbwys a’n bod yn ystyried tystiolaeth newydd sy’n dod i’r amlwg.

Government’s Foresight programme, which includes land use and food security. The Welsh Assembly Government will continue to review evidence, as we do in all policy areas, to ensure that our approach to GM remains informed and takes into account new and emerging evidence.

Mae’r dystiolaeth gyfredol yn cefnogi parhau i arddel safbwynt rhagofalus, ac mae’n fwriad gennyf barhau i fabwysiadu agwedd mor gyfyngol â phosibl tuag at gnydau GM, sy’n gyson â’n rhwymedigaethau cyfreithiol. Edrychaf ymlaen at dderbyn sylwadau am y cynigion ar gyfer mesurau cydfodoli a fydd yn ein helpu i roi trefn briodol ar waith i reoli unrhyw drefniadau i ddatblygu cnydau GM yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol.

Current evidence supports the continuation of a precautionary approach and it is my intention to maintain as restrictive a policy approach to GM as is possible within our legal obligations. I look forward to receiving comments on the proposals for co-existence arrangements, which will help us to put in place an appropriate regime to control any future GM crop development in Wales.

Brynle Williams: Diolch i chi, Weinidog, am eich datganiad heddiw.

Brynle Williams: Thank you, Minister, for your statement today.

It is obvious that GM crops are a controversial subject, not just in Wales, but all over the world. There are a few questions that I would like to ask, Minister. When can we expect the public consultation on co-existence arrangements to begin, and when will the regulations be implemented? There are grave concerns about co-existence measures, as organic farming is expanding throughout the principality. What will the buffer zones be?

Mae’n amlwg bod cnydau GM yn bwnc dadleuol, nid dim ond yng Nghymru, ond ledled y byd. Mae gennyf ychydig gwestiynau yr hoffwn eu gofyn, Weinidog. Pryd y gallwn ddisgwyl i’r ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus ar drefniadau cydfodoli gychwyn, a phryd y bydd y rheoliadau’n cael eu rhoi ar waith? Ceir pryderon dybryd ynghylch mesurau cydfodoli, gan fod ffermio organig yn ehangu ledled y wlad. Beth fydd y parthau clustogi?

The other issue that I have noted is one of liability. What do you mean by ‘compensation money’? Will it be voluntary compensation? Will it be voluntary from all farmers in Wales or will it be top-sliced from the agriculture budget?

Y mater arall yr wyf wedi’i nodi yw atebolrwydd. Beth ydych chi’n ei olygu drwy gyfeirio at arian digolledu? A fydd y digolledu hwn yn wirfoddol? A fydd yn wirfoddol gan holl ffermwyr Cymru ynteu a fydd yn cael ei frigdorri o’r gyllideb amaethyddiaeth?

On the GM register, what would happen if I decided to grow GM crops and I farmed next door, effectively, to a registered organic producer? Would it be up to the Minister to decide who is permitted to grow crops in certain areas? Will the seed companies or the farmers be responsible for cross-contamination if it occurs and if litigation is brought about? That is our great concern.

O ran y gofrestr GM, beth fyddai’n digwydd petawn i’n penderfynu tyfu cnydau GM a’m bod yn ffermio y drws nesaf, fwy na heb, i gynhyrchydd organig cofrestredig? Ai lle’r Gweinidog fyddai penderfynu pwy sy’n cael tyfu cnydau mewn ardaloedd penodol? A fydd y cwmnïau hadau neu’r ffermwyr yn gyfrifol am groeshalogi os bydd hynny’n digwydd ac os dechreuir ymgyfreitha? Dyna yw ein pryder mawr ni.

68

24/02/2009

Finally, Minister, I welcome your precautionary approach to the GM problem, and I eagerly await your comments.

Yn olaf, Weinidog, yr wyf yn croesawu eich agwedd ragofalus at y broblem GM, ac arhosaf yn eiddgar am eich sylwadau.

4.00 p.m.

Elin Jones: Thank you for that list of questions. I apologise to you and to other Members because, although I am making a statement on my intention to consult, the proposals themselves are not yet fully out for consultation, although I have given a pretty full outline of them. Finding the answer to a number of Brynle’s questions will involve inviting people who are interested in this field to comment during the consultation process.

Elin Jones: Diolch ichi am y rhestr gwestiynau honno. Ymddiheuraf i chi ac i Aelodau eraill oherwydd, er fy mod yn gwneud datganiad am fy mwriad i ymgynghori, nid yw’r holl gynigion wedi’u dosbarthu ar gyfer ymgynghori eto, er fy mod wedi rhoi braslun eithaf manwl ohonynt. Er mwyn cael yr ateb i nifer o’r cwestiynau a ofynnodd Brynle, bydd angen gwahodd pobl sy’n ymddiddori yn y maes hwn i roi sylwadau yn ystod y broses ymgynghori.

With regard to a GM register, if Brynle Williams or anybody else were to decide to grow a GM crop, the proposal in the current consultation would mean that they would need to publicly register their intention three months in advance of planting or sowing.

Gyda golwg ar gofrestr GM, petai Brynle Williams neu unrhyw un arall yn penderfynu tyfu cnwd GM, byddai’r cynnig sydd yn yr ymgynghoriad presennol yn golygu y byddai angen iddo gofrestru ei fwriad yn gyhoeddus dri mis cyn plannu neu hau.

The environmental liability directive and the regulations that were consulted on at the end of last year, including the part on GM, put the responsibility for contamination and environmental damage as a result of planting GM on the permit holder, be that the farmer, the seller or the biotechnology company. I hope that I made it clear in my statement that Welsh Ministers do not have the power to ban GM crops from Wales if they are authorised at the European level. We are, therefore, through the environmental liability directive and its regulations, and now through the consultation on co-existence regulations, putting in place the most restrictive policy—I welcome Brynle’s support for the precautionary approach—so that we can ensure that conventional farming, which includes, for this purpose, organic farming, can be protected from any aspirations to grow GM crops in Wales.

Yn y gyfarwyddeb atebolrwydd amgylcheddol a’r rheoliadau yr ymgynghorwyd arnynt ddiwedd y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, gan gynnwys y rhan ar GM, rhoddwyd y cyfrifoldeb am halogi a difrod amgylcheddol o ganlyniad i blannu GM i ddeiliad y drwydded, boed hwnnw’n ffermwr, yn werthwr neu’n gwmni biotechnoleg. Yr wyf yn gobeithio imi egluro yn fy natganiad nad oes pŵer gan Weinidogion Cymru i wahardd cnydau GM yng Nghymru os ydynt wedi’u hawdurdodi ar y lefel Ewropeaidd. Yr ydym, felly, drwy’r gyfarwyddeb atebolrwydd amgylcheddol a’i rheoliadau, ac yn awr drwy’r ymgynghori ar reoliadau cydfodoli, yn rhoi’r polisi mwyaf cyfyngol ar waith—croesawaf gefnogaeth Brynle i’r dull gweithredu rhagofalus—fel y gallwn sicrhau y gellir diogelu ffermio confensiynol, sy’n cynnwys, i’r diben hwn, ffermio organig, rhag unrhyw ddyheadau i dyfu cnydau GM yng Nghymru.

Joyce Watson: It is right that our position on GM be informed by the best evidence available and that it should always take account of new evidence as it emerges. That said, I am pleased that you have used this opportunity to restate our precautionary approach to GM. Time has elapsed since the

Joyce Watson: Mae’n briodol i’n safbwynt ar GM gael ei bennu yng ngoleuni’r dystiolaeth orau sydd ar gael ac y dylai bob amser roi sylw i dystiolaeth newydd fel y mae’n dod i’r golwg. Wedi dweud hynny, yr wyf yn falch eich bod wedi defnyddio’r cyfle hwn i ailddatgan ein hymagwedd ragofalus at

69

24/02/2009

UK completed its large farm-scale trials in 2003, which concluded that GM crops had a damaging impact on farmland wildlife. In the light of recent news stories and the apparent confusion over the regulations governing how and where GM crops can and cannot be grown, I welcome the fact that plans for a full public consultation on the arrangement are in the pipeline.

GM. Mae amser wedi mynd heibio ers i’r DU gwblhau ei threialon helaeth ar ffermydd yn 2003, a ddaeth i’r casgliad bod cnydau GM yn niweidio bywyd gwyllt ar dir amaeth. A chofio storïau diweddar yn y newyddion a’r dryswch ymddangosiadol ynghylch y rheoliadau sy’n pennu sut ac ymhle y gellir ac na ellir tyfu cnydau GM, croesawaf y ffaith bod cynlluniau ar y gweill i gael ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus llawn ar y trefniant.

You mention the importance of labelling to ensure that consumers are informed of farmers’ decisions to grow GM, conventional or organic crops. I agree with this approach, and add that we need to improve on the current system.

Yr ydych yn sôn am bwysigrwydd labelu i sicrhau bod defnyddwyr yn cael eu hysbysu am benderfyniadau gan ffermwyr i dyfu cnydau GM, confensiynol neu organig. Cytunaf â’r dull gweithredu hwn, ac ychwanegaf fod angen inni wella’r system bresennol.

I am sure that you are aware that some businesses and organisations in the poultry industry are considering dropping their current self-imposed ban on GM soya feeds because of the extra costs in sourcing non-GM feed. Their argument is that other classes of livestock and dairy products in the UK are produced using GM feeds, about which the public is often unaware. Minister, have you held any discussions with the industry on this issue? Do you agree that products should be clearly labelled to inform consumers about all GM sourcing, be it for the crop itself or feed to be used in other ways?

Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn ymwybodol bod rhai busnesau a chyrff yn y diwydiant dofednod yn ystyried rhoi’r gorau i’r gwaharddiad y maent wedi’i osod eu hunain ar fwydydd anifeiliaid o soia GM oherwydd y costau ychwanegol sydd ynglŷn â chyrchu bwydydd sy’n rhydd o GM. Eu dadl hwy yw bod mathau eraill o dda byw a chynhyrchion llaeth yn y DU yn cael eu cynhyrchu gan ddefnyddio bwydydd GM, na ŵyr y cyhoedd amdanynt yn aml. Weinidog, a ydych wedi cynnal unrhyw drafodaethau gyda’r diwydiant ar y mater hwn? A ydych yn cytuno y dylid labelu cynhyrchion yn glir i hysbysu defnyddwyr am yr holl gyrchu GM, boed hynny ar gyfer y cnwd ei hun neu fwydydd i’w defnyddio mewn moddau eraill?

Will the consultation address the use of other herbicide-resistant varieties of crops? There are concerns that some of the new varieties of crops that are being developed using conventional plant-breeding techniques are potentially more harmful than GM crops, but, because they are being developed using conventional techniques, they are not subject to the same controls as GM crops.

A fydd yr ymgynghoriad yn rhoi sylw i ddefnyddio amrywogaethau eraill o gnydau sy’n gallu gwrthsefyll chwynladdwyr? Mae pryderon bod rhai o’r amrywogaethau newydd o gnydau sy’n cael eu datblygu gan ddefnyddio technegau bridio planhigion confensiynol yn fwy niweidiol, o bosibl, na chnydau GM, ond, am eu bod yn cael eu datblygu gan ddefnyddio technegau confensiynol, nad ydynt yn dod dan yr un rheolaethau â chnydau GM.

Elin Jones: Thank you for your support for the precautionary approach that the Government is adopting towards GM crops. There are regulations currently in place on traceability and labelling, although I have had

Elin Jones: Diolch i chi am eich cefnogaeth i’r dull rhagofalus y mae’r Llywodraeth yn ei fabwysiadu ar gyfer cnydau GM. Mae rheoliadau ar waith ar hyn o bryd ar olrhain a labelu, er fy mod wedi cael trafodaethau gyda

70

24/02/2009

discussions with a number of interested parties, including the GM Free alliance in Wales, regarding the need to improve labelling and information to consumers—whether the consumer is the farmer or the person consuming the food—on the GM content of any food or feedstuff. In general, this would be a matter for European consideration and not a matter to be considered on a Wales basis, in that we need to ensure that our consumers have confidence in labelling.

nifer o bartïon cysylltiedig, gan gynnwys y gynghrair GM Free yng Nghymru, ynghylch yr angen am well labelu a gwybodaeth i ddefnyddwyr—pa un a yw’r defnyddiwr yn ffermwr neu’n un sy’n bwyta’r bwyd—am y cynnwys GM mewn unrhyw fwyd neu fwydydd anifeiliaid. Yn gyffredinol, byddai hyn yn fater i’w ystyried ar lefel Ewropeaidd ac nid ar lefel Cymru, gan fod angen inni sicrhau bod ein defnyddwyr yn ymddiried mewn labelau.

On the issue that you raised in terms of the acceptability—or otherwise—of some conventionally bred crops, it is not an issue that has been raised with me or on which I have received advice. However, if you want to give me more information on some of your concerns on this issue, I would be very happy to listen and to respond in due course.

Ynghylch y mater a godasoch mewn cysylltiad â derbynioldeb—neu fel arall—rhai cnydau sydd wedi’u bridio’n gonfensiynol, nid yw’n fater sydd wedi’i godi gyda mi neu’n un yr wyf wedi cael cyngor arno. Fodd bynnag, os dymunwch roi mwy o wybodaeth i mi am rai o’ch pryderon ar y mater hwn, byddwn yn fodlon iawn gwrando ac ymateb maes o law.

Mick Bates: The Welsh Liberal Democrats recognise that the Minister has a good record on maintaining the most legally restrictive policy possible in relation to GM crops, and we praise the strong efforts being made to maintain this policy. The Welsh Liberal Democrats oppose the commercial growing of genetically modified crops, and we are proud of the cross-party support in the Assembly in 2000 to a motion to adopt the most legally restrictive policy possible in relation to GM crops.

Mick Bates: Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn cydnabod bod record dda gan y Gweinidog o ran cynnal y polisi mwyaf cyfyngol posibl dan y gyfraith mewn cysylltiad â chnydau GM, a chanmolwn yr ymdrechion mawr a wneir i barhau â’r polisi hwn. Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn gwrthwynebu tyfu cnydau sydd wedi’u haddasu’n enetig ar raddfa fasnachol, ac yr ydym yn falch o’r gefnogaeth drawsbleidiol yn y Cynulliad yn 2000 i gynnig i fabwysiadu’r polisi mwyaf cyfyngol posibl dan y gyfraith mewn cysylltiad â chnydau GM.

We remain deeply concerned about the way in which GM crops are grown around the world, and the ability of multinational companies that own the patents on GM seeds to make poor farmers dependent on a monopoly supplier. I urge the Minister to comment on that, in view of the fair trade statement that has just been made, and how we wish to maintain fairness in trade throughout the world.

Yr ydym yn pryderu’n ddirfawr o hyd ynghylch y modd y tyfir cnydau GM o gwmpas y byd, a gallu cwmnïau rhyngwladol sy’n berchen ar y patentau ar hadau GM i wneud ffermwyr tlawd yn ddibynnol ar gyflenwr monopolyddol. Anogaf y Gweinidog i wneud sylw am hynny, gan gofio am y datganiad am fasnach deg sydd newydd ei wneud, a’n dymuniad i gadw tegwch mewn masnach ledled y byd.

Clear labelling is needed on GM foods, particularly those that are imported. Is the Minister able to state that even tighter restrictions could be introduced on the content of GM in food? Currently, we have an internationally accepted contamination

Mae angen labelau clir ar fwydydd GM, yn enwedig y rheini a fewnforir. A yw’r Gweinidog yn gallu datgan y gellid cyflwyno cyfyngiadau caethach byth ar gynnwys GM mewn bwyd? Ar hyn o bryd, mae gennym lefel halogi sydd wedi’i derbyn yn

71

24/02/2009

level of 0.9 per cent. We have the best agri-environment policies and organic farming policies, but they could be under threat; that is why we welcome your proposal to consult on the co-existence policies that are in place here and in other parts of the world.

rhyngwladol o 0.9 y cant. Gennym ni y mae’r polisïau amaeth-amgylchedd a’r polisïau ffermio organig gorau, ond gallent fod dan fygythiad; dyna pam y croesawn eich cynnig i ymgynghori ar y polisïau cydfodoli sydd ar waith yma ac mewn rhannau eraill o’r byd.

However, will you, in the consultation, specify the distances that were proposed in the second organic action plan that runs from 2005 to 2010? For example, it was suggested that the separation distances between GM and organic holdings should be set at 4 km for beet crops, 8 km for maize crops and 10 km for oilseed rape crops. It is particularly important that the consultation gives consideration to the fact that different GM crops require different separation distances, because, otherwise, the good work that you and previous Government have undertaken in this regard could be threatened.

Fodd bynnag, a wnewch bennu, yn yr ymgynghoriad, y pellteroedd a gynigiwyd yn yr ail gynllun gweithredu organig sy’n rhedeg rhwng 2005 a 2010? Er enghraifft, awgrymwyd gosod y pellteroedd gwahanu rhwng daliadau GM a daliadau organig ar 4 km ar gyfer cnydau betys, 8 km ar gyfer cnydau indrawn a 10 km ar gyfer cnydau rêp had olew. Mae’n neilltuol o bwysig bod yr ymgynghoriad yn ystyried y ffaith bod gwahanol gnydau GM yn galw am wahanol bellteroedd gwahanu, oherwydd, fel arall, gallai’r gwaith da yr ydych chi a’r Llywodraeth flaenorol wedi’i wneud yn hyn o beth fod dan fygythiad.

4.10 p.m.

I am pleased to see that issues around a GM register and the need to notify all neighbours will be part of the consultation. How will you enforce that? For regulations to be trusted it needs to be known that they will be enforced, so will you, as part of this consultation, recognise the need for extra investment to enforce the results? What have you done on that issue?

Yr wyf yn falch o weld y bydd materion sy’n ymwneud â chofrestr GM a’r angen i hysbysu’r holl gymdogion yn rhan o’r ymgynghoriad. Sut y byddwch yn gorfodi hynny? Er mwyn gallu ymddiried mewn rheoliadau, mae angen gwybod y cânt eu gorfodi, felly a wnewch chi, fel rhan o’r ymgynghoriad hwn, gydnabod yr angen am fuddsoddi ychwanegol i orfodi’r canlyniadau? Beth yr ydych wedi’i wneud ar y mater hwnnw?

Similarly, is it possible to provide a timetable? As you say, you have only announced today your intention to consult, and have not published the consultation document. No clear date on when that will take place has been given, so there is no clear date for the statutory period of 12 weeks that would follow the consultation and there is no timetable for when you would aim to introduce the results of the consultation to protect the ever-increasing status of Welsh food, in the quality of which the Government has invested.

Yn yr un modd, a ellir darparu amserlen? Fel yr ydych yn dweud, nid ydych ond wedi cyhoeddi’ch bwriad i ymgynghori heddiw, ac nid ydych wedi cyhoeddi’r ddogfen ymgynghori. Ni roddwyd dyddiad pendant ar gyfer ei chyhoeddi, felly nid oes dyddiad pendant ar gyfer y cyfnod statudol o 12 wythnos a fyddai’n dilyn yr ymgynghoriad ac nid oes amserlen i ddangos pa bryd y byddech yn ceisio cyflwyno canlyniadau’r ymgynghoriad er mwyn diogelu statws cynyddol bwyd o Gymru, y mae’r Llywodraeth wedi buddsoddi yn ei ansawdd.

Elin Jones: Thank you, Mick, for your strong and continuing support for the view of the Government and the Assembly on growing GM crops in Wales. Part of what I

Elin Jones: Diolch, Mick, am eich cefnogaeth gadarn a chyson i farn y Llywodraeth a’r Cynulliad am dyfu cnydau GM yng Nghymru. Un agwedd ar yr hyn yr

72

24/02/2009

am announcing today is the putting in place of legislation following earlier Assembly decisions and votes. This is an appropriate time to put regulations on co-existence in place.

wyf yn ei gyhoeddi heddiw yw rhoi deddfwriaeth ar waith yn dilyn penderfyniadau a phleidleisiau cynharach gan y Cynulliad. Mae hon yn adeg briodol i roi rheoliadau ar waith ar gydfodoli.

You asked about the ability to consider wider political parameters in decisions on GM. It is important to stress that, while decisions at the European level on seed authorisation are currently taken based on scientific advice alone, it is this Government’s opinion that wider parameters should be used, allowing member states and the Council of Ministers to take decisions based on socio-economic and ethical factors, as well as the scientific considerations that are, quite rightly, always needed.

Holasoch am y gallu i ystyried paramedrau gwleidyddol ehangach mewn penderfyniadau ar GM. Mae’n bwysig pwysleisio, er bod penderfyniadau ar y lefel Ewropeaidd ar awdurdodi hadau’n cael eu gwneud ar hyn o bryd ar sail cyngor gwyddonol yn unig, mai barn y Llywodraeth hon yw y dylid defnyddio paramedrau ehangach, gan ganiatáu i aelod-wladwriaethau a Chyngor y Gweinidogion wneud penderfyniadau ar sail ffactorau cymdeithasol-economaidd a moesegol, yn ogystal â’r ystyriaethau gwyddonol y mae eu hangen bob amser, a hynny’n gwbl briodol.

The consultation will have proposals regarding separation distances between GM crops and conventional crops. The proposal will be to treat all non-GM crops in a way that does not differentiate between organic and other, conventionally grown, crops. This means that that the separation distances will be between GM crops and all other crops. The possibility of contamination is a consideration for both organic and conventional farmers.

Bydd yr ymgynghoriad yn cynnwys cynigion ynghylch pellteroedd gwahanu rhwng cnydau GM a chnydau confensiynol. Y cynnig fydd trin yr holl gnydau sy’n rhydd o GM mewn modd nad yw’n gwahaniaethu rhwng cnydau organig a chnydau eraill sydd wedi’u tyfu’n gonfensiynol. Ystyr hyn yw y bydd y pellteroedd gwahanu rhwng cnydau GM a’r holl gnydau eraill. Mae’r posibilrwydd o halogi’n ystyriaeth i ffermwyr organig ac i ffermwyr confensiynol.

The point regarding enforcement is important, and one that will have to feature in the final decisions on the exact nature of the regulations that we put in place. Enforcing those regulations is necessary if we are to make the whole legislative context meaningful. There will be a full 12-week consultation period once the consultation is published, which I hope will be in the next few weeks.

Mae’r pwynt ynghylch gorfodi’n un pwysig, ac yn un y bydd yn rhaid rhoi sylw iddo yn y penderfyniadau terfynol ar union natur y rheoliadau a roddwn ar waith. Mae’n angenrheidiol gorfodi’r rheoliadau hynny os ydym i sicrhau bod y cyd-destun deddfwriaethol cyfan yn ystyrlon. Bydd cyfnod ymgynghori llawn o 12 wythnos ar ôl cyhoeddi’r ymgynghoriad, a fydd yn digwydd, yr wyf yn gobeithio, yn yr wythnosau nesaf.

Leanne Wood: Thank you for your statement, Minister. I warmly welcome the Government’s continued commitment to maximising the restrictions on GM crops by following the precautionary principle. Wales has a growing organic, high-quality food sector, which has become an important aspect of our economy, as well as an important part of our tourism industry. I am concerned that the sector could be seriously undermined if

Leanne Wood: Diolch i chi am eich datganiad, Weinidog. Yr wyf yn croesawu’n frwd ymrwymiad parhaus y Llywodraeth i osod y cyfyngiadau mwyaf posibl ar gnydau GM drwy ddilyn yr egwyddor ragofalus. Mae gan Gymru sector bwydydd organig o ansawdd uchel sydd ar gynnydd, sydd wedi dod yn agwedd bwysig ar ein heconomi, ac yn rhan bwysig hefyd o’n diwydiant ymwelwyr. Yr wyf yn pryderu y gallai’r

73

24/02/2009

the strictest co-existence measures are not put in place. We have developed a niche market, a market that I sincerely hope will be sustained through the difficult economic times that we face. People are likely to feel an extra squeeze on their finances, and I hope that these strict measures can only help in that respect.

sector gael ei danseilio’n ddifrifol os na sefydlir y mesurau cydfodoli llymaf. Yr ydym wedi datblygu marchnad arbenigol, marchnad y gobeithiaf yn ddiffuant y caiff ei chynnal drwy’r cyfnod economaidd dyrys sy’n ein hwynebu. Mae pobl yn debygol o deimlo gwasgfa ychwanegol ar eu harian, a gobeithiaf mai dim ond helpu a all y mesurau llym hyn yn hynny o beth.

I welcome your intention to ensure transparency through a statutory national register that will be open to the public. I am hoping that this will send a clear signal to farmers that they have no right to plant genetically modified plants behind people’s backs.

Croesawaf eich bwriad i sicrhau tryloywder drwy gofrestr genedlaethol statudol a fydd yn agored i’r cyhoedd. Yr wyf yn gobeithio yr anfona hyn neges glir i ffermwyr nad oes ganddynt ddim hawl i blannu planhigion a addaswyd yn enynnol y tu ôl i gefnau pobl.

I accept your point that there are grave worldwide concerns about food security. Genetically modified crops are not the answer, at least not for us here in Wales. Climate change has already resulted in water shortages, and this, combined with Governments displacing food crops for biofuels and high oil prices, has seen food prices go up considerably recently.

Derbyniaf eich pwynt fod pryderon dwys ledled y byd ynghylch diogelwch bwyd. Nid cnydau a addaswyd yn enynnol yw’r ateb, o leiaf nid i ni yma yng Nghymru. Mae’r newid yn yr hinsawdd eisoes wedi achosi prinder dŵr, ac mae hyn, ynghyd â Llywodraethau’n disodli cnydau bwyd am fiodanwyddau, a phrisiau olew uchel, wedi peri cynnydd sylweddol ym mhrisiau bwyd yn ddiweddar.

I am sure that many Members share my concerns about this, but I share the Minister’s view that allowing genetically modified crops to be grown in Wales will not help to overcome that problem. I am not saying that we should not do anything about the global food crisis, but I would argue that our focus should be on cutting our carbon emissions and not on growing genetically modified crops.

Yr wyf yn siŵr bod llawer o Aelodau’n rhannu fy mhryderon am hyn, ond cytunaf â’r Gweinidog na fydd caniatáu tyfu cnydau a addaswyd yn enynnol yng Nghymru’n helpu i oresgyn y broblem honno. Nid wyf yn dweud na ddylem wneud dim ynghylch yr argyfwng bwyd byd-eang, ond fy nadl i fyddai y dylem ganolbwyntio ar leihau ein hallyriadau carbon ac nid ar dyfu cnydau a addaswyd yn enynnol.

I wish to conclude by drawing your attention to a vote that is due to take place in the European Commission on 2 March. This proposal would allow some countries to grow a form of genetically modified maize called MON810. Campaigners are calling for a re-evaluation of the safety MON810 and for the Council of Ministers to represent the public’s view on this and oppose the commission. I am only too aware, as you are, Minister, that Wales has no direct voice on the Council of Ministers, but I would be grateful if you could undertake to do all you can to ensure that Wales’s views on genetically modified crops are communicated to the relevant UK Minister with a view to opposing this move

Hoffwn orffen drwy dynnu’ch sylw at bleidlais sydd i ddigwydd yn y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd ar 2 Mawrth. Byddai’r cynnig hwn yn caniatáu i rai gwledydd dyfu ffurf ar india-corn wedi’i addasu’n enynnol, o’r enw MON810. Mae ymgyrchwyr yn galw am ailwerthuso diogelwch MON810 ac am i’r Cyngor Gweinidogion gynrychioli barn y cyhoedd ar hyn a gwrthwynebu’r comisiwn. Gwn yn iawn, fel y gwyddoch chi, Weinidog, nad oes gan Gymru lais uniongyrchol ar Gyngor y Gweinidogion, ond byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gallech ymgymryd i wneud popeth a allwch i sicrhau y cyflëir barn Cymru am gnydau a addaswyd yn enynnol i Weinidog perthnasol y Deyrnas Unedig gyda

74

24/02/2009

at an EU level. golwg ar wrthwynebu’r symudiad hwn ar lefel yr Undeb Ewropeaidd.

Elin Jones: Thank you for your comments, Leanne. I am pleased that Plaid Cymru is supporting the Government view on GM policy. With regard to confidence for producers, you are absolutely right to say that those producers who are very proud of their conventional or organic forms of agriculture might have invested heavily in developing and marketing their food product on the basis of its quality or organic status. Such producers need to have the confidence that they are able to protect that investment from any possibility of contamination from genetically modified crops. They need the confidence that, first, they would be informed of any intention to plant genetically modified crops in the vicinity and, secondly, that, should there be any environmental damage as a result of such crops, the liability will rest quite clearly with the permit holder of the genetically modified crops.

Elin Jones: Diolch am eich sylwadau, Leanne. Yr wyf yn falch bod Plaid Cymru’n cefnogi barn y Llywodraeth ar bolisi GM. O safbwynt hyder i gynhyrchwyr, yr ydych yn llygad eich lle pan ddywedwch efallai fod y cynhyrchwyr hynny sydd yn falch iawn o’u dulliau amaethu confensiynol neu organig wedi buddsoddi’n drwm mewn datblygu a marchnata’u cynnyrch bwyd ar sail ei ansawdd neu ei statws organig. Mae angen i’r cynhyrchwyr hynny gael yr hyder y gallant warchod y buddsoddiad hwnnw rhag unrhyw bosibilrwydd o halogiad gan gnydau a addaswyd yn enynnol. Mae arnynt angen yr hyder, yn gyntaf, y rhoddid gwybod iddynt am unrhyw fwriad i blannu cnydau a addaswyd yn enynnol yn yr ardal ac, yn ail, pe gwneid unrhyw ddifrod amgylcheddol o ganlyniad i’r cnydau hynny, y byddai’r atebolrwydd yn gorwedd yn gwbl glir gyda deiliad trwydded y cnydau a addaswyd yn enynnol.

Like you, I am not convinced that the introduction of genetically modified crops or any support for them should be the reaction to the possible food shortages that could affect the global community. That would be a knee-jerk and simplistic political reaction to the issue. I would not shut out any consideration of the technology in future, but at this point in time I am not convinced of its contribution to food production, and I therefore want to ensure that, in Wales, and within our powers in Wales, we are able to protect those farmers who are of a similar view to me in taking a precautionary approach to genetically modified crops.

Fel chi, nid wyf finnau wedi fy narbwyllo mai cyflwyno cnydau a addaswyd yn enynnol neu eu cefnogi mewn unrhyw fodd yw’r ffordd y dylid adweithio i’r prinder bwyd posibl a allai effeithio ar y gymuned fyd-eang. Adwaith gwleidyddol difeddwl a gor-syml i’r mater fyddai hynny. Ni fyddwn yn cau allan unrhyw ystyriaeth i’r dechnoleg yn y dyfodol, ond ar hyn o bryd nid wyf wedi fy narbwyllo ynglŷn â’i chyfraniad at gynhyrchu bwyd, ac felly mae arnaf eisiau sicrhau ein bod ni yng Nghymru, ac o fewn ein pwerau yng Nghymru, yn gallu gwarchod y ffermwyr hynny sydd o farn debyg i mi o ran cymryd agwedd ragofalus at gnydau a addaswyd yn enynnol.

4.20 p.m.

With regard to any voting that takes place within the Council of Ministers on any authorisation or safeguard action for genetically modified seed, discussions take place between the four countries of the United Kingdom in preparing the UK voting position in advance of any voting. As I said in response to Mick Bates, I am quite clearly of the view that scientific advice should be taken on any decision or vote relating to the

O ran unrhyw bleidleisio sy’n digwydd o fewn y Cyngor Gweinidogion ar unrhyw awdurdodi neu gamau diogelwch ar gyfer hadau a addaswyd yn enynnol, ceir trafodaethau rhwng pedair gwlad y Deyrnas Unedig wrth baratoi ar gyfer safbwynt pleidleisio’r Deyrnas Unedig cyn pleidleisio o gwbl. Fel y dywedais wrth ymateb i Mick Bates, yr wyf yn gwbl glir o’r farn y dylid cymryd cyngor gwyddonol ar unrhyw

75

24/02/2009

authorisation of genetic modification, and that we should have wider socioeconomic and ethical parameters before a decision is taken by any member state on how to cast its vote.

benderfyniad neu bleidlais ar awdurdodi addasu genynnol, ac y dylem gael paramedrau cymdeithasol-economaidd a moesegol ehangach cyn y gwneir penderfyniad gan unrhyw aelod-wladwriaeth ynghylch sut i fwrw’i phleidlais.

Alun Davies: I join others in welcoming this statement, if not, perhaps, the tone of the statement and everything that the Minister has said. I agree that genetic modification should not be seen or perceived to be a knee-jerk reaction, and the adoption of GM technology should not be seen as a knee-jerk reaction to climate change or to food shortages. However, you said in your last answer that genetic modification is a valid technology. For any government to take such an antagonistic approach to any valid technology is a disappointment in many ways.

Alun Davies: Ymunaf ag eraill heddiw wrth groesawu’r datganiad, os nad, efallai, naws y datganiad a phopeth a ddywedodd y Gweinidog. Cytunaf na ddylid canfod nac edrych ar addasu genynnol fel adwaith difeddwl, ac na ddylid gweld mabwysiadu technoleg addasu genynnol fel adwaith difeddwl i’r newid yn yr hinsawdd nac i brinder bwyd. Fodd bynnag, dywedasoch yn eich ateb diwethaf fod addasu genynnol yn dechnoleg ddilys. Mae i unrhyw lywodraeth gymryd agwedd mor elyniaethus at unrhyw dechnoleg ddilys yn siom mewn llawer ffordd.

I welcome the public debate on the matter, which will follow this statement today, and I hope that the Government will listen to that public debate with an open mind, and approach a public debate with an open mind.

Croesawaf y ddadl gyhoeddus ar y mater, a fydd yn dilyn y datganiad hwn heddiw, a gobeithiaf y gwrendy’r Llywodraeth ar y ddadl gyhoeddus honno gyda meddwl agored, a mynd i mewn i ddadl gyhoeddus gyda meddwl agored.

I visited the Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences on Friday and saw impressive presentations on the work that the institute does in Aberystwyth, and also on its ambitions for the future. IBERS is quite clear that it wishes to be a world-class research institution that can be compared with the best in the world. It was also clear that the current policy pursued by the Welsh Assembly Government will inhibit its ambition to be among the best in the world, perhaps not in the next few years and perhaps not in the short term, but certainly in the medium and long term. There is a direct contradiction between the stated ambition of the Government, which is to have an economy that is based on knowledge, and a policy that prevents the accumulation of knowledge. You cannot have it both ways. For too long, we have adopted an approach that has been rooted in what we call the precautionary principle. However, I think that, in fact, we mean conservatism.

Ymwelais â Sefydliad y Gwyddorau Biolegol, Amgylcheddol a Gwledig ddydd Gwener, a gwelais gyflwyniadau da iawn ar y gwaith a wna’r sefydliad yn Aberystwyth, a hefyd ar ei uchelgeisiau ar gyfer y dyfodol. Mae IBERS yn gwbl glir bod arno eisiau bod yn sefydliad ymchwil o’r radd flaenaf y gellir ei gymharu â’r goreuon yn y byd. Yr oedd yn amlwg iawn hefyd y bydd y polisi cyfredol a ddilynir gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn llesteirio’i uchelgais i fod ymysg y goreuon yn y byd, efallai nid yn yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf ac efallai nid yn y tymor byr, ond yn sicr yn y tymor canolig a hir. Mae gwrthddywediad uniongyrchol rhwng uchelgais gyhoeddedig y Llywodraeth, sef cael economi sy’n seiliedig ar wybodaeth, a pholisi sy’n atal cronni gwybodaeth. Ni allwch ei chael bob ffordd. Am yn rhy hir, yr ydym wedi arddel agwedd a gafodd ei gwreiddio yn yr hyn a alwn yn egwyddor ragofalus. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn meddwl mai ceidwadaeth a olygwn mewn gwirionedd.

I hope that you will approach the Gobeithiaf yr ewch i mewn i’r

76

24/02/2009

consultation, Minister, with a view to considering what is possible and allowing a public debate to take place. It will be a positive debate and it will ensure that the policy that we have reflects not only what is needed for the economy in the future and what our agricultural economy needs, but the perception of Wales. I believe strongly that Wales has to be perceived internationally to be a place where things get done and where things happen, and not a place where we seek to stop things from happening and to prevent things from being done. In addressing this policy, I hope that we will do so in a way that seeks to drive forward, not inhibit, research, and seeks to support our universities and higher education sector and, at the same time, seeks to explore the possibilities and the potential of GM technology.

ymgynghoriad, Weinidog, gyda golwg ar ystyried beth sy’n bosibl a chaniatáu dadl gyhoeddus. Bydd yn ddadl gadarnhaol a bydd yn sicrhau y bydd y polisi sydd gennym yn adlewyrchu nid yn unig yr hyn y mae ei angen ar gyfer yr economi yn y dyfodol a’r hyn y mae ar ein heconomi amaethyddol ei angen, ond y canfyddiad o Gymru. Credaf yn gryf ei bod yn rhaid i Gymru gael ei gweld yn rhyngwladol fel lle i fynd â’r maen i’r wal, lle mae pethau’n digwydd, ac nid yn fan lle ceisiwn atal pethau rhag digwydd ac atal pethau rhag cael eu gwneud. Wrth roi sylw i’r polisi hwn, gobeithiaf y gwnawn hynny mewn modd sy’n ceisio gyrru ymchwil ymlaen, nad yw’n ceisio llesteirio ymchwil, ond sy’n ceisio cefnogi ein prifysgolion a’n sector addysg uwch ac, ar yr un pryd, yn ceisio ymchwilio i bosibiliadau a photensial technoleg addasu genynnol.

Elin Jones: I hope that nothing that I have said thus far this afternoon has indicated that I would want to inhibit research. In my answer to Leanne Wood, I said that I—like most people here, hopefully—would not close my eyes entirely to the potential role that all new technology, and even GM technology, might play in the future. At present, this Government and I are not convinced that the argument for an open-door policy on GM introduction is there.

Elin Jones: Gobeithio nad oes dim yr wyf wedi’i ddweud hyd yn hyn y prynhawn yma wedi awgrymu y byddai arnaf eisiau llesteirio ymchwil. Yn fy ateb i Leanne Wood, dywedais na fyddwn i—fel y rhan fwyaf o bobl yma, gobeithio—yn cau fy llygaid yn llwyr ar y rhagolygon ac ar y potensial a allai fod i bob technoleg newydd, a hyd yn oed dechnoleg addasu genynnol, yn y dyfodol. Ar hyn o bryd, nid yw’r Llywodraeth hon a minnau wedi’n darbwyllo bod y dadleuon yn bodoli i gael polisi drws agored ar gyflwyno addasu genynnol.

Current research shows that consumers remain unconvinced about the role of genetically modified food in Wales. Although I, as Minister, have not discussed this issue with IBERS, I would say that IBERS has aspirations to be a world-class research institution. It already undertakes world-class research on conventional breeding, and it may well have aspirations for GM technology research in the future. If that is the case, it will need to make its case to the Welsh Government, because we will have powers of consent in relation to such research, and I am sure that the institute will make that case to me and to the Government at an appropriate time, when it is ready to do so. However, I am putting in place today a consultation on regulations that will allow conventional and organic farmers in Wales to be informed and to feel protected from the

Dengys ymchwil cyfredol fod defnyddwyr yn dal heb eu darbwyllo am rôl bwyd a addaswyd yn enynnol yng Nghymru. Er nad wyf fi, fel Gweinidog, wedi trafod y mater hwn gydag IBERS, dywedwn fod gan IBERS ddyheadau i fod yn sefydliad ymchwil o’r radd flaenaf. Mae eisoes yn gwneud ymchwil o’r radd flaenaf ar fridio confensiynol, ac efallai’n wir fod ganddo ddyheadau i wneud ymchwil i dechnoleg addasu genynnol i’r dyfodol. Os felly, bydd angen iddo gyflwyno’i achos i Lywodraeth Cymru, oherwydd bydd gennym bwerau i gydsynio i’r cyfryw ymchwil, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y gwnaiff IBERS ddadlau’r achos hwnnw i mi ac i’r Llywodraeth ar adeg briodol, pan fydd yn barod i wneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn sefydlu ymgynghoriad heddiw ar reoliadau a fydd yn caniatáu i ffermwyr confensiynol ac organig yng Nghymru gael

77

24/02/2009

effects of possible cross-contamination on their daily business arising from any farm in Wales deciding to grow any authorised GM product. That meets the aspiration of Assembly Members to have a proportionate approach that is within the legislative capacity of the Assembly, but within the overall framework of European legislation.

gwybodaeth a theimlo’n ddiogel rhag effeithiau’r croes-halogi posibl ar eu busnes beunyddiol a allai ddigwydd wrth i fferm yng Nghymru benderfynu tyfu unrhyw gynnyrch addasu genynnol awdurdodedig. Mae hynny’n ateb dyhead Aelodau’r Cynulliad i gael agwedd gymesur sydd o fewn gallu deddfwriaethol y Cynulliad, ond o fewn fframwaith cyffredinol deddfwriaeth Ewrop.

Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order

Alun Cairns: I wish to raise two points of order in relation to the descriptions of constituencies and of Assembly Members. The Deputy Minister for Regeneration, Leighton Andrews, today issued an important statement relating to the community facilities and activities programme. That statement contained a breakdown of grants being provided on a constituency level, which was helpful and effective. However, that statement listed the constituencies together with the names of constituency Assembly Members without any mention of regional Assembly Members. Furthermore, that statement also included incorrect names of constituencies. For example, Brecon and Radnorshire was referred to solely as Brecon; Carmarthen East and Dinefwr was referred to solely as Carmarthen East; and Dwyfor Meirionnydd was referred to as Dwyfor Meirionnydd and as Meirionnydd Nant Conwy. There are errors in the statement, and, therefore, I raise two issues as points of order: the descriptions of constituencies used; and, of equal importance, the status of regional Assembly Members and how they relate to each of their constituencies.

Alun Cairns: Hoffwn godi dau bwynt o drefn ynglŷn â disgrifiadau etholaethau ac Aelodau Cynulliad. Heddiw cyhoeddodd y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Adfywio, Leighton Andrews, ddatganiad pwysig ynglŷn â’r rhaglen weithgareddau a chyfleusterau cymunedol. Yn y datganiad hwnnw caed dadansoddiad o grantiau a ddarperir ar lefel etholaeth, a oedd yn fuddiol ac yn effeithiol. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd y datganiad hwnnw’n rhestru’r etholaethau ynghyd ag enwau Aelodau Cynulliad yr etholaethau heb unrhyw sôn am Aelodau Cynulliad rhanbarthol. At hynny, yr oedd y datganiad hwnnw hefyd yn cynnwys enwau anghywir ar etholaethau. Er enghraifft, cyfeiriwyd at Frycheiniog a Sir Faesyfed fel Brycheiniog yn unig; cyfeiriwyd at Ddwyrain Caerfyrddin a Dinefwr fel Dwyrain Caerfyrddin yn unig; a chyfeiriwyd at Ddwyfor Meirionnydd fel Dwyfor Meirionnydd ac yna fel Meirionnydd Nant Conwy. Mae gwallau yn y datganiad, felly, codaf ddau fater fel pwyntiau o drefn: y disgrifiadau o etholaethau a ddefnyddiwyd; a, lawn cyn bwysiced, statws Aelodau Cynulliad rhanbarthol a’r modd y maent yn gysylltiedig â phob un o’u hetholaethau.

The Presiding Officer: I am grateful to Alun Cairns for providing me with advance warning of these points. I will rush, no, not rush, but process gradually from this desk to view the statement quite urgently. The constitutional position is clear. Our constitution, under section 36(6) of the Government of Wales Act 2006, requires that Standing Orders include a code or a protocol to be drafted by the Committee on Standards of Conduct, as set out in Standing Order No. 1.13. My understanding is that the committee’s work on this protocol is at an

Y Llywydd: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Alun Cairns am roi rhybudd ymlaen llaw imi am y pwyntiau hyn. Fe ruthraf, na, nid rhuthro, ond symudaf oddi wrth y ddesg hon i edrych ar y datganiad hwnnw gyda chryn frys. Mae’r sefyllfa gyfansoddiadol yn glir. Mae ein cyfansoddiad dan adran 36(6) Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006 yn gofyn bod Rheolau Sefydlog yn cynnwys cod neu brotocol i’w ddrafftio gan y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad, fel yr amlinellir yn Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 1.13. Fy nealltwriaeth i yw bod gwaith y pwyllgor ar y protocol hwn

78

24/02/2009

advanced stage, and when that has been completed, the code will be brought to the Assembly for approval.

bron â dod i ben, a phan fydd wedi’i gwblhau, y deuir â’r cod gerbron y Cynulliad i’w gymeradwyo.

In the interim, before the making of the code, I expect all Assembly Members, which includes Ministers, to abide by the principles set out in Standing Order No. 1.13. They include the duty on Members to be accessible to the people of the areas that they represent, to allow members of the public to approach Members of their choice, and we have the clear statement in Standing Order No. 1.13 (iii) that:

Yn y cyfamser, cyn llunio’r cod, disgwyliaf i holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad, gan gynnwys Gweinidogion, gadw at yr egwyddorion a amlinellir yn Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 1.13. Maent yn cynnwys y ddyletswydd ar i Aelodau fod yn hygyrch i bobl yr ardaloedd y maent yn eu gwasanaethu, caniatáu i aelodau’r cyhoedd fynd at eu dewis Aelod, ac mae gennym y datganiad eglur yn Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 1.13 (iii):

‘all Members have equal status’, ‘mae gan bob Aelod statws cyfartal’,

and so on, in dealing with constituency cases. Therefore, the position is clear in Standing Orders and in legislation, and, for the further enlightenment of Members, I will refer to the latest addition of the white book, whose editor sits beside me on this presiding desk—I will not refer to him by name, as I would embarrass him. However, he is over there.

ac felly ymlaen wrth ddelio ag achosion etholaeth. Felly, mae’r sefyllfa’n glir yn y Rheolau Sefydlog ac mewn deddfwriaeth, ac, er mwyn goleuo Aelodau ymhellach, cyfeiriaf at rifyn diweddaraf y llyfr gwyn, y mae ei olygydd yn eistedd nesaf ataf ar y ddesg lywyddol hon—ni chyfeiriaf ato wrth ei enw, gan y byddwn yn codi cywilydd arno. Fodd bynnag, mae draw yn y fan acw.

4.30 p.m.

The February 2009 edition, in referring to this particular Standing Order and procedural rulings and precedents arising from it, lists a series of occasions on which I have stated clearly the equal status of regional and constituency Members. Any protocol that deals with this issue will take into account those principles, which have become the established practice of the National Assembly, as well as what appears in the Standing Orders and legislation. I will return to this issue if needs be when I have studied the matter further.

Mae rhifyn Chwefror 2009, wrth gyfeirio at y Rheol Sefydlog benodol hon a phenderfyniadau a chynseiliau gweithdrefnol sy’n deillio ohono, yn rhestru cyfres o achlysuron pan wyf wedi datgan yn glir bod gan Aelodau rhanbarthol ac Aelodau etholaethau statws cyfartal. Bydd unrhyw brotocol sy’n ymwneud â’r pwnc hwn yn rhoi sylw i’r egwyddorion hynny, sydd wedi dod yn un o arferion sefydledig y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, yn ogystal ag i’r hyn sy’n ymddangos yn y Rheolau Sefydlog a’r ddeddfwriaeth. Dychwelaf at y pwnc hwn os bydd angen pan fyddaf wedi astudio mwy ar y mater.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd (Rosemary Butler) i’r Gadair am 4.31 p.m.The Deputy Presiding Officer (Rosemary Butler) took the Chair at 4.31 p.m.

Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Awdurdodau Lleol (Ffioedd Chwiliadau Eiddo) (Cymru) 2009

Approval of the Local Authorities (Wales) (Charges for Property Searches) Regulations 2009

The Deputy Minister for Housing (Jocelyn Y Ddirprwy Weinidog dros Dai (Jocelyn

79

24/02/2009

Davies): I propose that Davies): Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order No. 24.4:

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 24.4:

1. considers the report of the Subordinate Legislation Committee laid in the Table Office on 3 February 2009 in relation to the draft the Local Authorities (Charges for Property Searches) (Wales) Regulations 2009; and

1. yn ystyried adroddiad y Pwyllgor Is-ddeddfwriaeth a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 3 Chwefror 2009 mewn perthynas â’r Gorchymyn drafft, Rheoliadau Awdurdodau Lleol (Ffioedd Chwiliadau Eiddo) (Cymru) 2009; a

2. approves that the draft the Local Authorities (Charges for Property Searches) (Wales) Regulations 2009 is made in accordance with:

2. yn cymeradwyo bod y Gorchymyn drafft, Rheoliadau Awdurdodau Lleol (Ffioedd Chwiliadau Eiddo) (Cymru) 2009 yn cael ei wneud yn unol ag:

a) the draft laid in the Table Office on 21 January 2009; and

a) y drafft a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 21 Ionawr 2009; a

b) the explanatory memorandum laid in the Table Office on 21 January 2009. (NDM4146)

b) y memorandwm esboniadol a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 21 Ionawr 2009. (NDM4146)

Members may be interested to know that the UK Government introduced the home information packs to improve the process of buying and selling a home and a property search is a mandatory part of each pack. However, while the legislation on HIPs is not devolved, the legislation governing local authority charges in connection with property searches has been devolved to the National Assembly.

Efallai y byddai’n dda gan yr Aelodau wybod bod Llywodraeth y DU wedi cyflwyno’r pecynnau gwybodaeth am eiddo er mwyn gwella proses prynu a gwerthu eiddo ac mae chwiliad eiddo’n rhan orfodol o bob pecyn. Fodd bynnag, er nad yw’r ddeddfwriaeth ynglŷn â’r pecynnau wedi’i datganoli, mae’r ddeddfwriaeth sy’n llywodraethu’r ffioedd a godir gan awdurdodau lleol yng nghyswllt chwiliadau eiddo wedi’i datganoli i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.

When purchasing a property, buyers need information on the building or its surroundings that may impact on its value or their desire to live in it. For example, buyers need an assurance that any previous building work has been carried out properly. Local authorities hold all of the data required to compile property searches, but there is a market in producing searches. Local authorities produce an official search and the private sector has an equivalent product that is known as a personal search. Local authorities also compile replies to formal inquiries in relation to properties using the property records that they hold. Personal search agents prepare similar reports, also using the property records held by local authorities.

Wrth brynu eiddo, mae angen gwybodaeth ar brynwyr am yr adeilad neu am gyffiniau’r eiddo hwnnw a allai effeithio ar ei werth neu ar eu hawydd i fyw ynddo. Er enghraifft, mae angen sicrwydd ar brynwyr bod unrhyw waith adeiladu blaenorol wedi’i wneud yn iawn. Mae awdurdodau lleol yn cadw’r holl ddata y mae eu hangen er mwyn cynnal chwiliadau eiddo, ond mae cwmnïau preifat hefyd wedi creu marchnad ar gyfer cynnal chwiliadau. Bydd awdurdodau lleol yn cynnal chwiliad swyddogol ac mae gan y sector preifat gynnyrch cyfatebol a elwir yn chwiliad personol. Bydd awdurdodau lleol hefyd yn llunio atebion i ymchwiliadau ffurfiol ynglŷn ag eiddo gan ddefnyddio’r cofnodion eiddo a gedwir ganddynt. Bydd asiantau chwilio personol yn paratoi adroddiadau tebyg, a byddant hwythau hefyd

80

24/02/2009

yn defnyddio’r cofnodion eiddo a gedwir gan awdurdodau lleol.

Private companies rely on having access to local authority-held data, but there have been problems with some local authorities providing access to data and some companies being reluctant to pay for it. Either way, it is the buyer who suffers.

Bydd cwmnïau preifat yn dibynnu ar allu mynd at y data a gedwir gan awdurdodau lleol, ond mae problemau wedi codi am nad yw pob awdurdod lleol yn darparu’r wybodaeth ac am fod rhai cwmnïau’n gyndyn o dalu amdani. Naill ffordd neu’r llall, y prynwr sy’n dioddef.

Where local authorities have decided to restrict access, private search companies have used insurance to cover for missing data. This has resulted in consumers not having all of the information on which to base what is perhaps the biggest financial decision of their lives. It can also increase costs if they are advised by a solicitor to obtain an additional local authority search as a replacement for a deficient personal search. There is also evidence that some search companies have used insurance to avoid paying for available data. That is not acceptable. Buyers are paying for it and expect, and should get, comprehensive information.

Lle mae awdurdodau lleol wedi penderfynu peidio â darparu’r wybodaeth, mae cwmnïau chwilio preifat wedi defnyddio yswiriant i’w gwarchod rhag data coll. Canlyniad hyn yw nad yw’r holl wybodaeth angenrheidiol gan brynwyr a hwythau efallai'n gwneud penderfyniad ariannol mwyaf eu bywyd. Gall hyn hefyd gynyddu’r costau os cânt eu cynghori gan gyfreithiwr i geisio chwiliad ychwanegol gan awdurdod lleol yn lle chwiliad personol diffygiol. Ceir rhywfaint o dystiolaeth hefyd bod rhai cwmnïau chwilio wedi defnyddio yswiriant er mwyn osgoi talu am ddata sydd ar gael. Nid yw hynny’n dderbyniol. Mae’r prynwyr yn talu am wybodaeth gynhwysfawr. Dyna maent yn disgwyl ei chael a dyna y dylent ei chael.

The regulations before you have been subject to extensive consultation. They are intended to clarify how local authorities charge for search data by establishing a framework that will ensure transparency and flexibility so that council tax payers do not subsidise the cost of searches. As a result, the UK Government has announced that the practice of using insurance for personal searches will end on 6 April 2009. Local authorities and the private sector have been notified so that they may adjust their working practices. As there will no longer be insurance cover for deficient searches, we must ensure that all searches are of a high standard. The underlying principle of the regulations is that authorities must make search information available to all on equal terms. Therefore, if it costs an authority £20 to produce the necessary data, it must charge a search company £20 for the data.

Mae’r rheoliadau ger eich bron wedi bod yn destun ymgynghori helaeth. Bwriedir iddynt egluro sut y mae awdurdodau lleol yn codi ffi am ddata chwiliadau drwy sefydlu fframwaith a fydd yn sicrhau tryloywder a hyblygrwydd fel nad yw’r sawl sy’n talu’r dreth gyngor yn cyfrannu at gost chwiliadau. Yn sgil hyn, mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi cyhoeddi y daw’r arfer o ddefnyddio yswiriant ar gyfer chwiliadau personol i ben ar 6 Ebrill 2009. Hysbyswyd awdurdodau lleol a’r sector preifat er mwyn iddynt addasu eu harferion gweithio. Gan na fydd gwarchodaeth yswiriant ar gael rhagor ar gyfer chwiliadau diffygiol, rhaid inni sicrhau bod pob chwiliad yn chwiliad o safon. Egwyddor sylfaenol y rheoliadau yw ei bod yn rhaid i awdurdodau ddarparu gwybodaeth am chwiliadau i bawb yn ddiwahân. Felly, os yw’n costio £20 i awdurdod ddarparu’r data angenrheidiol, rhaid iddo godi £20 ar gwmni chwilio am y data.

We have published draft guidance to assist local authorities to implement the proposed regulations. We expect buyers to benefit most

Yr ydym wedi cyhoeddi arweiniad drafft i gynorthwyo awdurdodau lleol i roi’r rheoliadau arfaethedig ar waith. Disgwyliwn

81

24/02/2009

from these changes. They should benefit from improvements in quality and a reduction in price. Private search companies will also benefit from improved access to data, so raising the quality of their product. Therefore, I commend the regulations to the Assembly.

mai’r prynwyr a fydd yn elwa fwyaf o’r newidiadau hyn. Dylent elwa yn sgil gwella’r ansawdd a gostwng y pris. Bydd cwmnïau chwilio preifat ar eu hennill hefyd oherwydd bydd yn haws iddynt gael gafael ar ddata, ac felly, bydd ansawdd eu cynnyrch yn well. Felly, cymeradwyaf y rheoliadau i’r Cynulliad.

Mark Isherwood: In writing to a constituent, the Deputy Minister noted that, if the regulations and guidance are approved, she would expect to see an improvement in the quality of personal searches and a reduction in the consequent cost to consumers when they come into force. I also note a statement from the Office of Fair Trading that there should be a level playing field for all concerned. We fully endorse that aspiration and principle.

Mark Isherwood: Wrth ysgrifennu at etholwr, nododd y Dirprwy Weinidog, os cymeradwyir y rheoliadau a’r arweiniad, y byddai’n disgwyl gweld ansawdd chwiliadau personol yn gwella a’r pris yn gostwng yn sgil hynny i ddefnyddwyr pan roddir y rheoliadau hyn ar waith. Nodaf hefyd ddatganiad gan y Swyddfa Masnachu Teg y dylai fod maes chwarae teg i bawb dan sylw. Cefnogwn y dyhead hwnnw a’r egwyddor honno i’r carn.

However, when this matter was considered by a Westminster committee, personal search companies expressed concern that not all of their costs would necessarily be taken into account. There was a time, before personal search companies came into being, when local authorities had, in effect, a monopoly on local searches in conveyancing. The personal search companies came into being because it was felt that, on occasion, that monopoly was abused by some local authorities, with a consequent impact on the cost to consumers. The personal search companies provided an improved service in many instances, both in price and turnaround times, and I believe that that was mentioned in an Office of Fair Trading report of 2006. Despite some concern that some local authorities initially adopted anti-competitive behaviour, the personal search companies grew to take a 50 per cent share of the market before the introduction of home information packs; since the introduction of the packs, their market share has grown to 70 per cent.

Serch hynny, pan ystyriwyd y mater hwn gan un o bwyllgorau San Steffan, yr oedd un o’r cwmnïau chwilio personol yn poeni na fyddai ei holl gostau o anghenraid yn cael eu hystyried. Cyn sefydlu cwmnïau chwilio personol, yr oedd gan awdurdodau lleol, mewn gwirionedd, fonopoli dros chwiliadau lleol ym maes trawsgludo. Sefydlwyd y cwmnïau chwilio personol oherwydd y teimlid bod ambell awdurdod lleol ar brydiau’n camddefnyddio’r monopoli hwnnw, a bod hynny wedyn yn effeithio ar y gost i ddefnyddwyr. Yr oedd y cwmnïau chwilio personol yn cynnig gwell gwasanaeth yn aml iawn, o ran pris ac o ran yr amser a gymerai i gwblhau’r gwaith, a chredaf fod hynny wedi’i grybwyll mewn adroddiad gan y Swyddfa Masnachu Teg yn 2006. Er bod rhai’n poeni bod rhai awdurdodau lleol wedi ymddwyn yn wrth-gystadleuol yn y lle cyntaf, tyfodd y cwmnïau chwilio personol i fachu 50 y cant o’r farchnad cyn cyflwyno’r pecynnau gwybodaeth am eiddo; ers cyflwyno’r pecynnau, mae eu cyfran o’r farchnad wedi tyfu i 70 y cant.

Personal search companies now fear that these regulations could severely damage or even kill off their sector, effectively restoring a monopoly to local authorities. That would carry the risk of poorer and costlier local searches, both for home improvement pack companies and consumers. It would possibly also add to unemployment.

Mae cwmnïau chwilio personol yn ofni’n awr y gallai’r rheoliadau hyn niweidio’i sector yn ddifrifol, neu y gallent hyd yn oed fod yn ergyd farwol, ac y byddai hynny mewn gwirionedd yn adfer monopoli’r awdurdodau lleol. Perygl hynny fyddai bod chwiliadau lleol yn waeth eu hansawdd ac yn ddrutach, i gwmnïau sy’n darparu pecynnau gwella

82

24/02/2009

eiddo ac i ddefnyddwyr. Gallai hefyd ychwanegu at ddiweithdra.

At Westminster, these regulations were considered by the Eighth Delegated Legislation Committee, but the House Commons did not vote upon them after that committee reached an agreement. We have the opposite situation here—the technical aspects have been considered by the Subordinate Legislation Committee, but the regulations have not, and yet we are being asked to vote on them. The concerns raised with us by personal search companies have not been scrutinised by the Assembly as a whole, although they may well have been considered by the Minister. We would have welcomed, and should have had, the opportunity to address those concerns before being asked to vote. We will therefore vote accordingly today.

Yn San Steffan, ystyriwyd y rheoliadau hyn gan yr Wythfed Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth Dirprwyedig, ond ni phleidleisiodd Tŷ’r Cyffredin arnynt ar ôl i’r pwyllgor hwnnw benderfynu. Mae’r sefyllfa sydd gennym yma’n groes i hynny—mae’r agweddau technegol wedi’u hystyried gan y Pwyllgor Is-ddeddfwriaeth, ond nid y rheoliadau, ac eto i gyd, gofynnir inni bleidleisio arnynt. Nid yw’r Cynulliad drwyddo draw wedi craffu ar y pryderon y mae’r cwmnïau chwilio personol wedi’u codi gyda ni, er bod y Gweinidog, o bosibl, wedi’u hystyried. Byddem wedi croesawu’r cyfle i roi sylw i’r pryderon hynny, a dylem fod wedi cael y cyfle hwnnw cyn bod gofyn inni bleidleisio. Byddwn felly’n pleidleisio’n unol â hynny heddiw.

Peter Black: I listened to Mark Isherwood’s arguments carefully, and I am a bit confused by them. Much of the information that he is talking about is already held by local authorities, and these regulations are drafted so as to clarify access to that information, and apply some kind of uniform standard. That is to ensure that everyone is clear as to what charges can be applied, and in which circumstances. That is a perfectly sensible way forward, particularly since the regulations stipulate that local authorities cannot make a profit on this, but can only cover their costs.

Peter Black: Gwrandewais ar ddadleuon Mark Isherwood yn ofalus, ac maent yn fy nrysu braidd. Mae llawer o’r wybodaeth y mae’n sôn amdani eisoes yn cael ei chadw gan awdurdodau lleol, ac mae’r rheoliadau hyn wedi’u drafftio er mwyn egluro’r mynediad at y wybodaeth honno, ac er mwyn rhoi rhyw fath o safon unffurf ar waith. Mae hynny er mwyn sicrhau bod pawb yn glir ynglŷn â pha ffioedd y gellir eu codi, a than ba amgylchiadau. Mae honno’n ffordd gwbl synhwyrol o fwrw ymlaen, yn enwedig gan fod y rheoliadau’n dweud yn benodol na chaiff awdurdodau lleol elwa yn sgil hyn, ac na chânt ond glirio’u costau.

The argument that local authorities are acting in an anti-competitive way, when the information is collected and held by them and by no-one else, is difficult to follow. Clarity as to what local authorities can charge for, and the way that that information can be accessed, is long overdue. These regulations provide that clarity, and a level of consistency that will help the personal search market. I do not see how personal search companies could lose out from this. If they are struggling, that may be more to do with the property market than with information and the actions of local authorities.

Mae’n anodd dilyn y ddadl bod awdurdodau lleol yn gweithredu mewn ffordd wrth-gystadleuol, oherwydd hwy a neb arall sy’n casglu ac yn cadw’r wybodaeth. Mae’n hen bryd sicrhau eglurder ynglŷn â’r hyn y caiff awdurdodau lleol godi tâl amdano, a sut y gellir cael gafael ar y wybodaeth honno. Mae’r rheoliadau hyn yn cynnig yr eglurder hwnnw, a lefel o gysondeb a fydd yn gymorth i’r farchnad chwiliadau personol. Ni welaf sut y gallai cwmnïau chwilio personol fod ar eu colled yn sgil hyn. Os ydynt yn straffaglu, efallai fod a wnelo hynny fwy â’r farchnad eiddo nag â gwybodaeth a gweithredoedd awdurdodau lleol.

83

24/02/2009

Jocelyn Davies: I thank Members for their contributions. Mark expressed concern that, historically, some local authorities had a monopoly in this regard, and that these changes might return us to that situation. I do not think that that is the case, and Peter explained why very well. There will be benefits for buyers because the information will now be complete and accurate.

Jocelyn Davies: Diolchaf i’r Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau. Dywedodd Mark ei fod yn poeni bod gan rai awdurdodau lleol, yn y gorffennol, fonopoli yn y cyswllt hwn, ac y gallai’r newidiadau hyn olygu ein bod yn dychwelyd at y sefyllfa honno. Ni chredaf fod hynny’n wir, ac esboniwyd hynny’n glir iawn gan Peter. Bydd manteision i brynwyr oherwydd y bydd y wybodaeth yn awr yn gyflawn ac yn gywir.

4.40 p.m.

There will be clarity about what local authorities will need to provide, and there will be a standardised service of a higher quality. If there is no need for insurance cover against incomplete information, there will be a lower risk for buyers, and search companies can offer that information. Of course, if a company had been supplying incomplete and cheap searches, it may face increased costs, but so be it, because it is the buyers about whom we are concerned.

Bydd eglurder ynglŷn â’r hyn y bydd angen i awdurdodau lleol ei ddarparu, a bydd y gwasanaeth yn un safonol ac o well ansawdd. Os nad oes angen gwarchodaeth yswiriant rhag gwybodaeth anghyflawn, bydd llai o risg i brynwyr. a gall cwmnïau chwilio gynnig y wybodaeth honno. Wrth gwrs, os oedd cwmni wedi bod yn darparu chwiliadau anghyflawn a rhad, mae’n bosibl y bydd yn wynebu mwy o gostau, ond dyna ni, oherwydd am y prynwyr yr ydym yn poeni.

Our system is different from that at Westminster. You are now considering these regulations. They have been tabled for almost a week—they were tabled last week. We are scrutinising them now, and I suppose that you could have tabled an amendment to the motion if you did not want to table an amendment to the regulations.

Mae ein system yn wahanol i system San Steffan. Yr ydych yn awr yn ystyried y rheoliadau hyn. Maent wedi cael eu cyflwyno ers wythnos bron—fe’u cyflwynwyd yr wythnos diwethaf. Yr ydym yn craffu arnynt yn awr, ac am wn i y gallech fod wedi cyflwyno gwelliant i’r cynnig os nad oeddech am gyflwyno gwelliant i’r rheoliadau.

I ask the Assembly to wholeheartedly support the regulations, because they will bring about improvements, and I am sure that the concerns that have been expressed will soon disappear once the regulations are in place.

Gofynnaf i’r Cynulliad gefnogi’r rheoliadau’n galonnog, oherwydd byddant yn gwella pethau, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y pryderon a fynegwyd yn diflannu’n fuan pan roddir y rheoliadau ar waith.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? I see that there is objection. In that case, I will defer voting until voting time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw cytuno ar y cynnig. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf fod gwrthwynebiad. Felly, gohiriaf y bleidlais tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Gohiriwyd y bleidlais tan yr amser pleidleisio.Vote deferred until voting time

Adroddiad Blynyddol Cynllun y Sector GwirfoddolThe Voluntary Sector Scheme Annual Report

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendment 1 in the name of

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw William Graham a

84

24/02/2009

William Graham and amendment 2 in the name of Peter Black.

gwelliant 2 yn enw Peter Black.

The Minister for Social Justice and Local Government (Brian Gibbons): I propose that

Y Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Leol (Brian Gibbons): Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

1. welcomes progress made in implementing the actions arising from ‘The third dimension’—a strategic action plan for the voluntary sector scheme;

1. yn croesawu’r cynnydd a wnaed wrth weithredu’r camau sy’n deillio o’r ddogfen ‘Y trydydd dimensiwn’—cynllun gweithredu strategol ar gyfer y cynllun sector gwirfoddol;

2. notes the action taken to implement the voluntary sector scheme in the period up to 31 March 2008;

2. yn nodi’r camau a gymerwyd er mwyn rhoi cynllun y sector gwirfoddol ar waith yn ystod y cyfnod hyd at 31 Mawrth 2008;

3. notes the publication of the voluntary sector scheme annual report. (NDM4147)

3. yn nodi bod adroddiad blynyddol cynllun y sector gwirfoddol wedi’i gyhoeddi. (NDM4147)

I am pleased to introduce this debate, which covers progress on ‘The third dimension’ strategic action plan and action taken to implement the voluntary sector scheme up to March 2008, and notes the publication of the voluntary sector annual report.

Yr wyf yn falch o gyflwyno’r ddadl hon, sy’n ymwneud â’r cynnydd a wnaethpwyd gyda’r cynllun gweithredu strategol ‘Y trydydd dimensiwn’ a’r camau a gymerwyd i roi cynllun y sector gwirfoddol ar waith hyd at fis Mawrth 2008. Nodir hefyd gyhoeddi adroddiad blynyddol y sector gwirfoddol.

Our voluntary sector scheme requires the Assembly Government, in consultation with the sector, to develop and maintain a separate action plan by which performance against the scheme can be monitored. We presented our strategic action plan, ‘The third dimension’—a strategic action plan for the voluntary sector scheme, during the Plenary debate on the annual report on the voluntary sector scheme on 13 November 2007. It asks Assembly Government departments to identify actions within their areas of responsibility that will enhance the contribution of volunteers, strengthen the contribution made through community development approaches, give citizens’ interests and concerns a stronger voice, promote social enterprise, and promote and support greater third sector involvement in the design, commissioning, delivery and evaluation of quality public services. It also identifies actions for the Assembly Government and the sector, including continuing support and funding for the arrangements that underpin the third sector

Mae ein cynllun ar gyfer y sector gwirfoddol yn gofyn bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, drwy ymgynghori â’r sector, yn datblygu ac yn cynnal cynllun gweithredu ar wahân er mwyn monitro perfformiad y cynllun. Cyflwynasom ein cynllun gweithredu strategol, ‘Y trydydd dimensiwn’—cynllun gweithredu strategol ar gyfer cynllun y sector gwirfoddol, yn ystod y ddadl yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ar adroddiad blynyddol cynllun y sector gwirfoddol ar 13 Tachwedd 2007. Mae’r cynllun gweithredu yn gofyn i adrannau Llywodraeth y Cynulliad nodi’r camau y gellir eu cymryd yn eu meysydd cyfrifoldeb er mwyn cynyddu cyfraniad gwirfoddolwyr, cryfhau cyfraniad drwy ddulliau datblygu cymunedol, rhoi llais cryfach i fuddiannau a phryderon dinasyddion, hyrwyddo mentrau cymdeithasol, ac annog a chynorthwyo’r trydydd sector i gyfrannu mwy at waith cynllunio, comisiynu, darparu a gwerthuso ansawdd gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Mae’r cynllun gweithredu hefyd yn nodi’r camau y dylai Llywodraeth y Cynulliad a’r sector eu

85

24/02/2009

infrastructure and a revision of the Assembly Government’s code of practice on funding.

cymryd, gan gynnwys parhau i gefnogi ac ariannu’r trefniadau sy’n sail i’r trydydd sector ac adolygu cod ymarfer Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ar gyfer ariannu.

Implementation of the strategy is being monitored by a sub-committee of the third sector partnership council, and it is probably worth noting that that is the formal successor to the voluntary sector partnership council, reflecting the change in the name of the sector, from the voluntary sector to the third sector.

Mae is-bwyllgor cyngor partneriaeth y trydydd sector yn monitro’r broses o roi’r strategaeth ar waith, ac mae’n debygol y byddai’n werth nodi bod y cyngor hwnnw’n olynydd ffurfiol i gyngor partneriaeth y sector gwirfoddol. Mae hynny’n adlewyrchu’r ffaith bod enw’r sector wedi newid, a’i fod yn cael ei adnabod bellach fel y trydydd sector yn hytrach na’r sector gwirfoddol.

Assembly Ministers are required to report on progress on implementing departmental actions during their biannual meetings with the third sector and are also required to report to the third sector partnership council. The revised code of practice for funding the third sector defines how we must act in providing funding for the sector, and what we expect in return. It will be updated regularly. We will continue to provide five-year core funding to county voluntary councils and volunteer centres across Wales, working with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and others to develop a comprehensive training programme for third sector organisations, trustees and volunteers.

Mae gofyn i Weinidogion y Cynulliad gyflwyno adroddiadau am y cynnydd wrth roi’r camau yn y gwahanol adrannau ar waith, a hynny yn ystod eu cyfarfodydd bob chwe mis gyda’r trydydd sector. Mae gofyn iddynt hefyd gyflwyno adroddiadau i gyngor partneriaeth y trydydd sector. Mae’r cod ymarfer diwygiedig ar gyfer ariannu’r trydydd sector bellach yn diffinio sut y dylem weithredu wrth ariannu’r sector, ac mae’n disgrifio’r hyn y disgwyliwn ei gael yn ôl. Bydd y cod hwn yn cael ei ddiweddaru’n rheolaidd. Byddwn yn dal i ddarparu arian craidd i’r cynghorau gwirfoddol sirol ac i ganolfannau gwirfoddol drwy Gymru, gan weithio gyda Chyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru ac eraill i ddatblygu rhaglen hyfforddiant gynhwysfawr i sefydliadau, ymddiriedolwyr a gwirfoddolwyr sefydliadau’r trydydd sector.

We also fund various projects through our grant schemes, including our various grant programmes to promote volunteering and other activities, such as the community facilities and activities programme and schemes managed on behalf of the Assembly Government by external organisations, such as the WCVA. However, we need to be more creative in funding the sector in the future, and we will need to consider other, more sustainable funding models, such as endowments and loan funding as well as procurement.

Yr ydym hefyd yn ariannu nifer o brosiectau drwy’n cynlluniau grantiau, gan gynnwys nifer o raglenni grantiau sy’n hyrwyddo gwirfoddoli a gweithgareddau eraill, megis y rhaglen i ddarparu cyfleusterau a gweithgareddau cymunedol a chynlluniau sy’n cael eu rheoli ar ran Llywodraeth y Cynulliad gan sefydliadau allanol, megis y WCVA. Fodd bynnag, mae angen inni fod yn fwy creadigol wrth ariannu’r sector yn y dyfodol, a bydd angen ystyried modelau ariannu eraill mwy cynaliadwy, megis arian gwaddol, a benthyciadau ynghyd â chynlluniau caffael.

It is obligatory for all Assembly Government departments, sponsored bodies, NHS bodies and others to follow the funding code of

Mae’n rhaid i holl adrannau Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, cyrff a noddir, cyrff y GIG ac eraill ddilyn y cod ymarfer ar gyfer ariannu.

86

24/02/2009

practice.

The code could also act as a model that we hope that other bodies, including local authorities, will wish to adopt. A key change in the code is the inclusion of a new section on procurement, explaining how the process works. It contains a clear, unequivocal endorsement of the principle of full-cost recovery, which the sector has been requesting for some time. As I have mentioned already, compliance with the code is monitored by the partnership council’s funding and compliance sub-committee, which demonstrates our commitment to ensuring transparency in our funding arrangements.

Gallai’r cod weithredu hefyd fel model y gobeithiwn y bydd cyrff eraill, yn cynnwys awdurdodau lleol, am ei fabwysiadu. Newid allweddol yn y cod yw cynnwys adran newydd ar gynaliadwyedd, yn egluro sut mae’r broses yn gweithio. Mae’n cynnwys cymeradwyaeth glir, ddiamwys o’r egwyddor o adennill costau llawn, rhywbeth y bu’r sector yn gofyn amdano ers tro. Fel yr wyf eisoes wedi’i grybwyll, is-bwyllgor cyllid a chydymffurfio’r cyngor partneriaeth sy’n monitro a oes cydymffurfio â’r cod, sy’n dangos ein hymrwymiad i sicrhau tryloywder yn ein trefniadau cyllido.

Volunteering is at the heart of third sector activities. We have set aside funding to run a public campaign to promote the value of voluntary activities, showing that quality volunteering opportunities are available for people who wish to take them up. We have asked the sector to help us to design that campaign, which we hope will help to attract volunteers over several years. We will link it with GwirVol, our youth volunteering partnership. We are committed to encouraging and enabling young people to volunteer. Communities across Wales will benefit as more young people are given the opportunity to express themselves as active citizens. In Wales, the Assembly Government’s support for the Russell commission’s recommendations has led to the establishment of a youth-led partnership of public, private and third sector organisations, under the name GwirVol. I will be launching GwirVol formally at the All Nations Centre, Cardiff, on 6 April.

Mae gwirfoddoli wrth galon gweithgareddau’r trydydd sector. Yr ydym wedi neilltuo cyllid i gynnal ymgyrch gyhoeddus i hyrwyddo gwerth gweithgareddau gwirfoddol, sy’n dangos bod cyfleoedd gwirfoddoli o safon ar gael i’r rhai sy’n dymuno manteisio arnynt. Yr ydym wedi gofyn i’r sector ein helpu i gynllunio’r ymgyrch honno, a gobeithiwn y gwnaiff helpu i ddenu gwirfoddolwyr dros flynyddoedd lawer. Byddwn yn ei chydgysylltu â GwirVol, ein partneriaeth gwirfoddoli gan bobl ifanc. Yr ydym wedi ymrwymo i annog a galluogi pobl ifanc i wirfoddoli. Bydd cymunedau ar draws Cymru yn elwa wrth i ragor o bobl ifanc gael cyfle i fynegi eu hunain fel dinasyddion gweithgar. Yng Nghymru, mae cefnogaeth Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i argymhellion comisiwn Russell wedi arwain at sefydlu partneriaeth o dan arweiniad pobl ifanc o gyrff sector cyhoeddus, sector preifat a thrydydd sector, o dan yr enw GwirVol. Byddaf yn lansio GwirVol yn ffurfiol yng Nghanolfan yr Holl Genhedloedd, Caerdydd, ar 6 Ebrill.

The ‘Voluntary Sector Scheme Annual Report 2007-08’ describes the achievements of the last year and includes many detailed examples of how we have worked in partnership with the sector. As well as giving an overview of our strategic approach, the many practical examples highlighted in the report indicate the constructive relationship that we are developing with the third sector and that the third sector is developing with us

Mae ‘Adroddiad Blynyddol Cynllun y Sector Gwirfoddol 2007-08’ yn disgrifio’r hyn a gyflawnwyd y llynedd ac mae’n cynnwys llawer o enghreifftiau manwl o sut yr ydym wedi gweithio mewn partneriaeth â’r sector. Yn ogystal â rhoi trosolwg o’n dull gweithredu strategol, mae’r llu o enghreifftiau ymarferol y tynnwyd sylw atynt yn yr adroddiad yn dangos y berthynas adeiladol yr ydym ni’n ei datblygu gyda’r

87

24/02/2009

and a wide range of other partners. trydydd sector ac y mae’r trydydd sector yn ei datblygu gyda ni ac amrywiaeth eang o bartneriaid eraill.

I also want to take this opportunity to update Members on the progress that the Assembly Government is making on implementing the recommendations of the Communities and Culture Committee in its report, ‘The Funding of Voluntary Sector Organisations in Wales’. I have written to the Chair of the committee, Janice Gregory, outlining progress to date. For example, the Wales Council for Voluntary Action has been commissioned to take forward several pieces of work, including a review of Welsh Assembly Government grant application forms and procedures, which was one of the committee’s main recommendations.

Yr wyf hefyd am achub ar y cyfle hwn i roi gwybodaeth ddiweddaru i’r Aelodau ar y cynnydd y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ei wneud yn gweithredu argymhellion ei Phwyllgor Cymunedau a Diwylliant yn ei adroddiad, ‘Ariannu Mudiadau yn y Sector Gwirfoddol yng Nghymru’. Yr wyf wedi ysgrifennu heddiw at Gadeirydd y pwyllgor, Janice Gregory, yn amlinellu’r cynnydd hyd yma. Er enghraifft, comisiynwyd Cyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru i symud aml i ddarn o waith ymlaen, yn cynnwys adolygiad o ffurflenni a gweithdrefnau ymgeisio am grantiau Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, a oedd yn un o brif argymhellion y pwyllgor.

That is also covered in amendment 2 and, consequently, we are in a position to recommend support for amendment 2. However, while we recognise the concerns raised in amendment 1, many of which are potentially material, we feel that it is too speculative at this stage, and we would not urge support for it. We will continue to engage with the third sector in a constructive way, looking particularly at the spirit of amendment 1, even if we are not in a position to support it at this stage.

Ymdrinnir â hyn hefyd yng ngwelliant 2 ac, o ganlyniad, yr ydym mewn sefyllfa i argymell cefnogi gwelliant 2. Fodd bynnag, er ein bod yn cydnabod y pryderon sy’n cael eu codi yng ngwelliant 1, y gallai llawer ohonynt fod yn berthnasol o bosibl, teimlwn ei fod yn rhy ddyfaliadol ar hyn o bryd, ac ni fyddem yn eich annog i’w gefnogi. Byddwn yn parhau i ymgysylltu â’r trydydd sector mewn ffordd adeiladol, gan edrych yn arbennig ar ysbryd gwelliant 1, hyd yn oed os nad ydym mewn sefyllfa i’w gefnogi ar hyn o bryd.

An important point raised by the committee was the need to review the means of providing funding to organisations that provide an all-Wales service to obviate the need for multiple grant applications. An equally important point was that about developing a central funding information portal. That work is being taken forward and I look forward to next year’s annual report, which can give some further detail on how these proposals are being realised.

Pwynt pwysig a godwyd gan y pwyllgor oedd yr angen i adolygu’r ffordd o ddarparu cyllid i fudiadau sy’n darparu gwasanaeth i Gymru gyfan i osgoi’r angen am geisiadau grant lluosog. Yr oedd y pwynt am ddatblygu porth gwybodaeth canolog ynglŷn â chyllido yr un mor bwysig. Mae’r gwaith hwnnw’n cael ei symud ymlaen ac edrychaf ymlaen at adroddiad blynyddol y flwyddyn nesaf, a all roi rhywfaint o fanylion ychwanegol am sut y mae’r cynigion hyn yn cael eu gwireddu.

In conclusion, by working in partnership with the third sector, we can continue to make a real difference to the lives of people who live in our communities. I therefore commend the annual report on the voluntary sector scheme 2007-08 to the National Assembly.

I gloi, drwy weithio mewn partneriaeth â’r trydydd sector, gallwn barhau i wneud gwahaniaeth gwirioneddol i fywydau pobl sy’n byw yn ein cymunedau. Felly, cymeradwyaf yr adroddiad blynyddol ar gynllun y sector gwirfoddol 2007-08 i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.

Mark Isherwood: I propose amendment 1 in Mark Isherwood: Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn

88

24/02/2009

the name of William Graham. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:

enw William Graham. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

expresses concern that the current economic climate could lead to a rise in demand for the third sector and a decline in available funding.

yn mynegi pryder y gallai’r hinsawdd economaidd bresennol arwain at gynnydd yn y galw ar y trydydd sector a gostyngiad yn y cyllid sydd ar gael.

As this report states, funding from public sector sources has been increasing; however, that is unlikely to continue. As stated in the Wales Council for Voluntary Action’s report, ‘The Third Sector and the Recession in Wales: Toward an Action Plan’, the recession could lead to a rise in demand for advice and counselling coupled with a decline in available funding. Citizens Advice Cymru has stated that, in the current economic climate, it expects the demand on its money advice services to increase substantially.

Fel y dywed yr adroddiad hwn, mae’r cyllid o ffynonellau sector cyhoeddus wedi bod yn cynyddu; fodd bynnag, mae hynny’n annhebygol o barhau. Fel y dywedwyd yn adroddiad Cyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru, ‘Y Trydydd Sector a’r Dirwasgiad yng Nghymru: Anelu at Gynllun Gweithredu’, gallai’r dirwasgiad arwain at gynnydd yn y galw am gyngor a chwnsela ynghyd â lleihad yn y cyllid sydd ar gael. Mae Cyngor ar Bopeth Cymru wedi datgan ei fod yn disgwyl, yn yr hinsawdd economaidd gyfredol, i’r galw ar ei wasanaethau cynghori ynglŷn ag arian gynyddu’n sylweddol.

4.50 p.m.

We heard the concerns of the Minister for Heritage last month, when he stated that the 2012 Olympics could cost Wales £100 million in lost lottery cash and consequential benefits, many of them delivered by the voluntary sector.

Clywsom bryderon y Gweinidog dros Dreftadaeth y mis diwethaf, pan ddywedodd y gallai Gemau Olympaidd 2012 gostio £100 miliwn i Gymru mewn arian loteri a gollir a buddion canlyniadol, y mae llawer ohonynt yn cael eu cyflwyno gan y sector gwirfoddol.

Much of the increased funding shown in this annual report is the result of voluntary sector organisations tendering to deliver services on behalf of the public sector. Mounting evidence confirms that the voluntary sector can deliver many public services more cost-effectively than the public sector, and at an equal or higher standard. The Minister for finance said that spending must now be focused on outcomes, which will require the increased separation of public sector commissioning from voluntary sector delivery. However, moves from grant funding to commissioning and procurement can disadvantage smaller, locally based organisations. The Minister must therefore seek and apply a flexible approach to contracting public service delivery that recognises the benefits of using locally based service providers.

Canlyniad mudiadau sector gwirfoddol yn tendro i gyflwyno gwasanaethau ar ran y sector cyhoeddus yw llawer o’r cynnydd o ran cyllid sy’n cael ei ddangos yn yr adroddiad blynyddol hwn. Mae tystiolaeth gynyddol yn cadarnhau bod y sector gwirfoddol yn gallu cyflwyno llawer o wasanaethau cyhoeddus yn fwy cost effeithiol na’r sector cyhoeddus, ac i’r un safon neu hyd at safon uwch. Dywedodd y Gweinidog dros gyllid ei bod yn rhaid i wariant ganolbwyntio ar ganlyniadau bellach, a fydd yn golygu mwy o wahanu rhwng comisiynu’r sector cyhoeddus a chyflwyno’r sector gwirfoddol. Fodd bynnag, gall symud oddi wrth gyllid grant i gomisiynu a chaffael achosi anfantais i fudiadau llai, lleol. Rhaid i’r Gweinidog felly geisio a chymhwyso ffordd hyblyg o osod gwaith cyflwyno gwasanaethau cyhoeddus ar gontract, sy’n cydnabod manteision defnyddio darparwyr gwasanaethau lleol.

89

24/02/2009

I understand that the process used for rural development programme funding has been raised with the Welsh Government as a key problem. There are major concerns that funding will be accessible only to larger organisations, as the system set up by the Welsh Government means that the payment is made only retrospectively. Smaller organisations can find that having to pay their project costs up-front is prohibitive. As the Wales Council for Voluntary Action has stated, the Welsh Government must ensure that this funding, and any other European programme funding, will not disadvantage the many smaller organisations that play such a valuable part in community life.

Deallaf fod y broses sy’n cael ei defnyddio i gyllido’r rhaglen datblygu gwledig wedi cael ei chodi gyda Llywodraeth Cymru fel problem allweddol. Mae pryderon mawr mai dim ond i fudiadau mwy y bydd cyllid ar gael, gan fod y system a sefydlwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru yn golygu mai dim ond yn ôl-weithredol y gwneir taliadau. Gall mudiadau bach ganfod bod gorfod talu eu costau prosiect ymlaen llaw yn rhy ddrud. Fel y mae Cyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru wedi datgan, rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru sicrhau na fydd y cyllid hwn, nac unrhyw gyllid eraill drwy raglenni Ewropeaidd, yn achosi anfantais i’r llu o fudiadau llai sy’n chwarae rhan mor werthfawr mewn bywyd cymunedol.

The UK Government has announced funding of £42.5 million to support the voluntary sector in providing advice and help to people most affected by the recession. Of that, the volunteer brokerage scheme for unemployed people to learn new skills for volunteering in their communities is the only initiative with funding attached to it that is applicable to Wales. Will the Minister tell us whether the Welsh Government has taken action to secure a share of that funding when it becomes available in April?

Mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi cyhoeddi £42.5 miliwn o gyllid i gynorthwyo’r sector gwirfoddol i ddarparu cyngor a help i’r bobl y mae’r dirwasgiad yn effeithio fwyaf arnynt. O hynny, y cynllun broceriaeth gwirfoddoli i bobl ddi-waith i ddysgu sgiliau newydd er mwyn gwirfoddoli yn eu cymunedau yw’r unig gynllun gyda chyllid ynghlwm wrtho sy’n berthnasol i Gymru. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddweud wrthym a yw Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gweithredu i sicrhau cyfran o’r cyllid hwnnw pan ddaw ar gael ym mis Ebrill?

Representatives at a north Wales rape and sexual abuse centre told me that the voluntary sector is not staffed by amateurs, but by extremely experienced and professional people. They have since told me that they are inundated with referrals from the police and health services, but they have no funding to help them to do that work. They added that their main funding will run out in July, and they are desperate. The situation was summarised by Flintshire’s domestic abuse panel, which reported a lack of sustainable funding for third sector posts, adding that intermittent grants are not enough for the specialist roles involved. Representatives of the domestic abuse safety unit on Deeside told me that they cannot plan, develop or fill identified gaps in the service, and that funders want things to be new and innovative, and do not recognise good practice. However, the key issue should be whether a programme is working. I said that to you in the debate on domestic abuse a few

Dywedodd cynrychiolwyr mewn canolfan treisio a cham-drin rhywiol yn y gogledd wrthyf nad ag amaturiaid y caiff y sector gwirfoddol ei staffio, ond â phobl hynod o brofiadol a phroffesiynol. Maent wedi dweud wrthyf ers hynny eu bod wedi cael eu boddi ag achosion a gyfeiriwyd gan yr heddlu a’r gwasanaethau iechyd, ond nad oes ganddynt gyllid i’w helpu i wneud y gwaith hwnnw. Ychwanegasant y bydd eu prif gyllid yn darfod ym mis Gorffennaf, a bod eu sefyllfa’n enbyd. Crynhowyd eu sefyllfa gan banel cam-drin yn y cartref sir y Fflint, a ddywedodd fod diffyg cyllid cynaliadwy ar gyfer swyddi trydydd sector, gan ychwanegu nad yw grantiau ysbeidiol yn ddigon ar gyfer y rolau arbenigol dan sylw. Dywedodd cynrychiolwyr o’r uned diogelwch cam-drin yn y cartref ar Lannau Dyfrdwy na allant gynllunio, datblygu na llenwi bylchau a nodwyd yn y gwasanaeth, a bod cyllidwyr am i bethau fod yn newydd ac arloesol, ac nad ydynt yn cydnabod ymarfer da. Fodd bynnag,

90

24/02/2009

weeks ago, but I repeat it now deliberately as the point is central. Similar concerns are replicated across the voluntary sector as many see their own fundraising efforts also hit by recession.

y cwestiwn a ddylai fod yn allweddol yw a yw rhaglen yn gweithio. Dywedais hynny wrthych mewn dadl ar gam-drin yn y cartref ychydig wythnosau’n ôl, ac fe’i hailadroddaf yn awr gan fod y pwynt yn ganolog. Mae pryderon tebyg i’w gweld ar draws y sector gwirfoddol wrth i lawer weld bod eu hymdrechion codi arian hefyd yn cael eu taro gan y dirwasgiad.

I am fed up with writing to Welsh Government Ministers on behalf of voluntary organisations that provide vital services and that face cuts and redundancies as their funding comes to an end, only to have Ministers write back passing the buck or telling me that future funding depends on the evaluations due after redundancy notices have been issued. Each of these organisations supports people who are at their most vulnerable, tackling the causes of the very problems in society that are expected to worsen as the recession bites. There are countless voluntary sector organisations across Wales in the same position. This is the result of a process-driven and short-sighted approach that is destined to add to the pressure on statutory service provision. Unless our voluntary sector receives sustainable funding for the core service delivery provided, the impact on the people of Wales will be devastating.

Yr wyf wedi alaru ar ysgrifennu at Weinidogion Llywodraeth Cymru ar ran mudiadau gwirfoddol sy’n darparu gwasanaethau hanfodol ac sy’n wynebu toriadau a dileu swyddi wrth i’w cyllid ddod i ben, dim ond i gael y Gweinidogion yn ysgrifennu’n ôl yn bwrw’r cyfrifoldeb neu’n dweud wrthyf fod cyllid yn y dyfodol yn dibynnu ar werthusiadau sydd i gael eu cynnal ar ôl i’r rhybuddion dileu swyddi gael eu rhoi. Mae pob un o’r mudiadau hyn yn cefnogi pobl sydd ar eu mwyaf bregus, gan fynd i’r afael ag achosion yr union broblemau mewn cymdeithas y mae disgwyl iddynt waethygu wrth i’r dirwasgiad frathu. Mae nifer ddi-rif o fudiadau sector gwirfoddol ar draws Cymru yn yr un sefyllfa. Canlyniad dull gweithredu annoeth, sy’n cael ei yrru gan broses, yw hyn—dull gweithredu sy’n siŵr o ychwanegu at y pwysau ar y ddarpariaeth gwasanaethau statudol. Oni bai fod ein sector gwirfoddol yn cael cyllid cynaliadwy ar gyfer y ddarpariaeth gwasanaethau graidd a gyflwynir, bydd yr effaith ar bobl Cymru yn enbyd.

Eleanor Burnham: I propose amendment 2 in the name of Peter Black. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Eleanor Burnham: Cynigiaf welliant 2 yn enw Peter Black. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

urges the Welsh Assembly Government to simplify the funding process for the voluntary sector by consolidating individual funding streams and promoting three year funding as the norm across the public sector.

yn annog Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i symleiddio'r broses gyllido ar gyfer y sector gwirfoddol drwy gyfuno ffrydiau ariannu unigol a hyrwyddo trefn gyllido tair blynedd fel y norm ar draws y sector cyhoeddus.

We are urging the Welsh Assembly Government to simplify the funding process for the voluntary sector by consolidating individual funding streams and promoting three-year funding as the norm across the public sector. That is for the obvious reason that these bodies spend a lot of their valuable time searching for and securing funding when they could be continuing to deliver the

Yr ydym yn annog Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i symleiddio’r broses gyllido i’r sector gwirfoddol drwy gyfnerthu ffrydiau ariannu unigol a hyrwyddo cyllid tair blynedd fel y norm ar draws y sector cyhoeddus. Mae hynny am y rheswm amlwg fod y cyrff hyn yn treulio llawer o’u hamser gwerthfawr yn chwilio am ac yn sicrhau cyllid pan allent fod yn parhau i gyflwyno’r

91

24/02/2009

wonderful services that they provide. gwasanaethau rhagorol y maent yn eu darparu.

I am sure that many of us have had first-hand experience of the voluntary sector; I certainly have in the past. Let us be honest: it is absolutely vital to service delivery in Wales. In fact, we seem to rely on it more and more for the delivery of essential services. In view of the economic climate, the WCVA has undertaken a recession survey in which it asks organisations to assess their future needs. It is timely and sensible planning on the part of the Wales Council for Voluntary Action. It recognises that, although charity shops may be experiencing an increase in trade leading to increased income, donations may be falling and demand for service increasing. The results of that survey will be released to a conference in April, and I believe that they will be crucial to the successful implementation of the Government’s plans.

Yr wyf yn siŵr fod gan lawer ohonom brofiad personol o’r sector gwirfoddol; yn sicr, yr oedd gennyf fi yn y gorffennol. Gadewch inni fod yn onest: mae’n gwbl dyngedfennol i gyflwyno gwasanaethau yng Nghymru. Yn wir, mae’n ymddangos ein bod yn dibynnu fwyfwy arno i gyflwyno gwasanaethau hanfodol. Ac ystyried yr hinsawdd economaidd, mae WCVA wedi cynnal arolwg dirwasgiad lle mae’n gofyn i fudiadau asesu eu hanghenion ar gyfer y dyfodol. Mae’n gynllunio amserol a synhwyrol ar ran Cyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru. Mae’n cydnabod, er bod siopau elusen yn gweld cynnydd efallai yn eu masnachu sy’n arwain at fwy o incwm, y gallai rhoddion fod yn gostwng a’r galw am wasanaethau’n cynyddu. Caiff canlyniadau’r arolwg hwnnw eu rhyddhau i gynhadledd ym mis Ebrill, a chredaf y byddant yn dyngedfennol o ran gweithredu cynlluniau’r Llywodraeth yn llwyddiannus.

We owe a huge debt to the magnificent voluntary sector in Wales, and we must pay the sector the respect that it deserves. With about 30,000 voluntary and community organisations and groups in Wales, it is obvious that their good efforts are providing invaluable support and assistance in our communities. We are all extremely grateful for the time and effort put in by all volunteers.

Mae arnom ddyled enfawr i’r sector gwirfoddol rhagorol yng Nghymru, a rhaid inni roi i’r sector y parch y mae’n ei haeddu. Gyda thua 30,000 o fudiadau a grwpiau gwirfoddol a chymunedol yng Nghymru, mae’n amlwg fod eu hymdrechion da yn darparu cefnogaeth a chymorth amhrisiadwy yn ein cymunedau. Yr ydym i gyd yn eithriadol o ddiolchgar am yr amser a’r ymdrech a gyfrannir gan y gwirfoddolwyr i gyd.

We welcome the opportunity to debate this matter, but I am afraid that we cannot support the first point of Carwyn Jones’s motion, because we do not believe that progress is being made. One glaring problem is the issue that I raised during the business statement earlier: community transport across north Wales. There is no point promoting it on the one hand and taking money away on the other. That is certainly what will happen. We need clarity on community transport, because it is provided for a very vulnerable sector of society. Many old and vulnerable people rely on community transport. That is one issue on which I would press the Minister, as I did this morning in committee.

Croesawn y cyfle i drafod y mater hwn, ond mae arnaf ofn na allwn gefnogi pwynt cyntaf cynnig Carwyn Jones, oherwydd nid ydym yn credu bod cynnydd yn cael ei wneud. Un broblem amlwg yw’r mater a godais yn ystod y datganiad busnes yn gynharach: trafnidiaeth gymunedol ar draws y gogledd. Nid oes unrhyw ddiben ei hyrwyddo ar yr un llaw a thynnu arian oddi arno ar y llaw arall. Dyna yn sicr a wnaiff ddigwydd. Mae angen eglurder arnom ynglŷn â thrafnidiaeth gymunedol, oherwydd caiff ei darparu ar gyfer sector bregus iawn o gymdeithas. Mae llawer o bobl oedrannus a bregus yn dibynnu ar drafnidiaeth gymunedol. Dyna un mater y byddwn yn pwyso ar y Gweinidog ynglŷn ag ef, fel y gwneuthum y bore yma yn y

92

24/02/2009

pwyllgor.

The motion considers the action taken up until 31 March 2008, which is almost a year ago. We are quite a bit later in the year than we were when we considered the previous year’s report and, at a time when the voluntary sector is changing rapidly owing to increased financial pressures, it is a shame that this report is now out of date, effectively. It includes many great things that we welcome, such as a grant of £60,000 to develop a sexual exploitation risk assessment in Wales and so on, but there are huge concerns that we must keep in mind. At the top of that list is financial pressure.

Mae’r cynnig yn ystyried y gweithredu hyd at 31 Mawrth 2008, sydd bron i flwyddyn ôl. Yr ydym gryn dipyn yn hwyrach yn y flwyddyn nag oeddem pan ystyriasom adroddiad y flwyddyn flaenorol ac, ar adeg y mae’r sector gwirfoddol yn newid yn gyflym oherwydd cynnydd yn y pwysau ariannol, mae’n drueni fod yr adroddiad hwn wedi dyddio erbyn hyn, i bob diben. Mae’n cynnwys llawer o bethau rhagorol yr ydym yn eu croesawu, megis grant o £60,000 i ddatblygu asesiad risg camfanteisio rhywiol yng Nghymru ac ati, ond mae pryderon enfawr y mae’n rhaid inni eu cadw mewn cof. Ar frig y rhestr honno mae pwysau ariannol.

Earlier, Mick Bates gave me a note reminding me of two key issues from his vast experience. The process of consultation is a burden for many voluntary groups. Reviews and consultation must be simplified and should not represent a burden. Local authorities were engaged very early on in the voluntary compacts, but now things do not appear quite so hunky-dory. Therefore, we need to press the Minister on how we improve the situation.

Yn gynharach, rhoddodd Mick Bates nodyn imi yn f’atgoffa o ddau fater allweddol o’i brofiad aruthrol. Mae’r broses ymgynghori yn faich i lawer o fudiadau gwirfoddol. Rhaid symleiddio adolygiadau ac ymgynghoriadau ac ni ddylent fod yn faich. Yr oedd yr awdurdodau lleol â rhan yn gynnar iawn yn y compactau gwirfoddol, ond nid yw pethau’n ymddangos mor gampus erbyn hyn. Felly, mae angen inni ddwyn pwysau ar y Gweinidog o ran sut mae gwella’r sefyllfa.

It is too early to tell what effect the recession will have on volunteering, but we know from listening to people and visiting voluntary groups that there is a huge impact. The WCVA is extremely concerned, which is why it has set up the recession survey that I referred to earlier. In Flintshire, the Welsh Assembly Government’s grants to the Flintshire Disability Forum charity have dried up, and that is just one example. As I have said, the community transport grants are another huge issue.

Mae’n rhy gynnar i ddweud pa effaith a gaiff y dirwasgiad ar wirfoddoli, ond gwyddom o wrando ar bobl ac ymweld â grwpiau gwirfoddol fod effaith enfawr. Mae WCVA yn eithriadol o bryderus, a dyna pam y sefydlodd yr arolwg dirwasgiad y cyfeiriais ato’n gynharach. Yn sir y Fflint, mae grantiau Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i elusen Fforwm Anabledd Sir y Fflint wedi mynd yn hesb, ac nid yw hynny ond un enghraifft. Fel yr wyf wedi dweud, mae’r grantiau trafnidiaeth gymunedol yn fater arall enfawr.

We must not take the third sector for granted. It is quite interesting that the name ‘voluntary sector’ has been replaced with ‘third sector’, and I wonder whether it is such a good thing. We must not forget that this work is voluntary and that all these people are giving of their valuable time voluntarily.

Rhaid inni beidio â chymryd y trydydd sector yn ganiataol. Mae’n reit ddiddorol fod yr enw ‘sector gwirfoddol’ wedi cael ei ddisodli gan y ‘trydydd sector’, ac yr wyf yn pwyso a mesur tybed a yw hynny’n beth da. Rhaid inni beidio ag anghofio bod y gwaith hwn yn wirfoddol a bod y bobl hyn i gyd yn rhoi o’u hamser gwerthfawr yn wirfoddol.

There is also an issue with the national lottery. The results of the Big Lottery Fund’s ‘Big Thinking’ consultation, which comes to

Mae ystyriaeth hefyd o ran y loteri genedlaethol. Bydd canlyniadau ymgynghoriad ‘Y Farn Fawr’ y Gronfa

93

24/02/2009

an end at the end of this month, will be crucial. Although I welcome the annual report, I feel that it is a bit out of date, and I press the Minister and the Welsh Assembly Government to put their money where their mouths are again, because the voluntary sector is absolutely crucial to the wellbeing of so many vulnerable people in Wales.

Loteri Fawr, sy’n dod i ben ddiwedd y mis hwn, yn dyngedfennol. Er fy mod yn croesawu’r adroddiad blynyddol, teimlaf ei fod wedi dyddio braidd, a phwysaf ar y Gweinidog a Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i roi ei harian ar ei gair, oherwydd mae’r sector gwirfoddol yn hollol dyngedfennol i les cynifer o bobl agored i niwed yng Nghymru.

Janice Gregory: I work regularly with a wide range of voluntary organisations that serve my constituents, from sports clubs to patient self-help groups, from arts organisations to groups that combat domestic violence, and from environmental groups to credit unions and social enterprises. Our lives would be much the poorer without them. As Chair of the Communities and Culture Committee, I meet volunteers from all around Wales. Knowing their work, I find it easy to believe that over half of the population is involved in volunteering.

Janice Gregory: Yr wyf yn gweithio’n rheolaidd gyda amrywiaeth eang o fudiadau gwirfoddol sy’n gwasanaethu f’etholwyr, o glybiau chwaraeon i grwpiau hunangymorth cleifion, o fudiadau celfyddydol i grwpiau sy’n ymladd yn erbyn trais yn y cartref, ac o grwpiau amgylcheddol i undebau credyd a mentrau cymdeithasol. Byddai’n bywydau yn llawer tlotach hebddynt. Fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cymunedau a Diwylliant, yr wyf yn cwrdd â gwirfoddolwyr o bob rhan o Gymru. O adnabod eu gwaith, gallaf yn hawdd gredu bod dros hanner y boblogaeth yn ymwneud â gwirfoddoli.

5.00 p.m.

I thank the Minister for mentioning the wonderful report that the Communities and Culture Committee published recently on funding for the voluntary sector. Having taken evidence from a wide range of voluntary groups from across Wales, I have seen that they acknowledge the work that has been done by the Welsh Assembly Government, particularly in terms of money for county voluntary groups.

Diolch i’r Gweinidog am sôn am yr adroddiad gwych a gyhoeddodd y Pwyllgor Cymunedau a Diwylliant yn ddiweddar am gyllid i’r sector gwirfoddol. Wedi derbyn tystiolaeth gan amrediad eang o grwpiau gwirfoddol o bob rhan o Gymru, yr wyf wedi gweld eu bod yn cydnabod y gwaith sydd wedi’i wneud gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, yn enwedig yn nhermau arian i grwpiau gwirfoddol sirol.

We should all be proud of the role that the Assembly has played in recognising the vital work of the third or voluntary sector, and in developing partnerships between Government and voluntary organisations. As the report demonstrates, their partnership continues to deliver results. The Government, along with its partners, has made the people of Wales central to its work, working together to meet their needs and choices rather than guarding our own little empires. It is a co-operative record of which we should all be proud.

Dylem i gyd ymfalchïo yn y rôl y mae’r Cynulliad wedi’i chwarae yn cydnabod gwaith hanfodol y trydydd sector neu’r sector gwirfoddol, ac yn datblygu partneriaethau rhwng y Llywodraeth a chyrff gwirfoddol. Fel y dengys yr adroddiad, mae eu partneriaeth yn esgor ar ganlyniadau o hyd. Mae’r Llywodraeth, ynghyd â’i phartneriaid, wedi sicrhau bod pobl Cymru’n ganolog i’w gwaith, gan gydweithio i ateb eu hanghenion a’u dewisiadau yn hytrach na gwarchod ein hymerodraethau bach ein hunain. Mae’n record gydweithredol y dylem i gyd fod yn falch ohoni.

The Assembly Government plays a key role in providing funding and co-ordination, but it would be a pity if the emphasis on

Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn chwarae rôl allweddol yn darparu cyllid a chydgysylltu, ond byddai’n drueni petai’r pwyslais ar arian

94

24/02/2009

Government funding in today’s amendments distracted us from the two-way nature of the relationship. My committee is particularly involved with the voluntary sector, but every Assembly committee and Government department has benefited from the advice and expertise of voluntary organisations. Politicians are good at systems and overall plans but the voluntary sector has always piloted and developed new approaches. Consider, for example, hospices, services for victims of domestic violence and credit unions; in the past, some politicians saw voluntary organisations as irrelevant or even as competitors. Today, we know that, just as Government can help and support the voluntary sector, the third sector has much to teach Government and public services.

y Llywodraeth yng ngwelliannau heddiw’n tynnu ein sylw oddi wrth natur ddwy ffordd y berthynas. Mae fy mhwyllgor yn ymwneud yn arbennig â’r sector gwirfoddol, ond mae pob pwyllgor Cynulliad ac adran o’r Llywodraeth wedi elwa ar gyngor ac arbenigedd cyrff gwirfoddol. Mae gwleidyddion yn dda am systemau a chynlluniau cyffredinol ond mae’r sector gwirfoddol wastad wedi peilota a datblygu dulliau newydd. Ystyrier, er enghraifft, hosbisau, gwasanaethau i ddioddefwyr trais domestig ac undebau credyd; yn y gorffennol, ystyriai rhai gwleidyddion fod cyrff gwirfoddol yn amherthnasol neu hyd yn oed yn gystadleuwyr. Heddiw, gwyddom, yn union fel y gall y Llywodraeth helpu a chefnogi’r sector gwirfoddol, fod gan y trydydd sector lawer i’w ddysgu i’r Llywodraeth a gwasanaethau cyhoeddus.

This debate provides an opportunity to celebrate that partnership, congratulate the Assembly Government on its role, and thank volunteers throughout Wales for their vital work. I hope that we can all join in that.

Mae’r ddadl hon yn rhoi cyfle inni ddathlu’r bartneriaeth honno, llongyfarch Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ar ei rôl, a diolch i wirfoddolwyr drwy Gymru gyfan am eu gwaith hanfodol. Gobeithio y gallwn ni i gyd ymuno yn hynny.

Peter Black: I start on the note on which Janice Gregory sat down, which is to acknowledge the work of volunteers across Wales and the important work that the voluntary sector—or the third sector, as it is now commonly known—is doing, not just in terms of providing a focus for many people in the community, but also in helping communities and in delivering vital services on the part of local authorities, health boards and other statutory authorities, making sure that they are delivered in good time and that they are of good value and of a high quality.

Peter Black: Dechreuaf ar y nodyn lle’r eisteddodd Janice Gregory i lawr, sef cydnabod gwaith gwirfoddolwyr ledled Cymru a’r gwaith pwysig y mae’r sector gwirfoddol—neu’r trydydd sector, fel y’i hadwaenir yn gyffredin bellach—yn ei wneud, nid dim ond yn nhermau darparu ffocws i lawer o bobl yn y gymuned, ond hefyd o ran helpu cymunedau a chyflenwi gwasanaethau hanfodol ar ran awdurdodau lleol, byrddau iechyd ac awdurdodau statudol eraill, gan wneud yn siŵr y cânt eu cyflenwi mewn da bryd a’u bod o ansawdd da ac yn rhoi gwerth da.

I think that we all acknowledge—the lottery issue, in particular, looms over us in this regard—that resources are becoming more and more scarce for the third sector. The huge amount of money being sucked out of Wales in order to fund the Olympic Games is hitting the voluntary sector particularly badly. Many organisations are struggling to maintain their core funding and a number of organisations have had to shelve plans for capital investment. Communities are losing out on funding due to that drain of money towards London for 2012. I know that there

Yr wyf yn meddwl ein bod ni i gyd yn cydnabod—mae cwestiwn y loteri, yn enwedig, yn hofran dros ein pen yn hyn o beth—fod adnoddau’n mynd yn fwyfwy prin i’r trydydd sector. Mae’r swm aruthrol o arian sy’n cael ei sugno allan o Gymru i dalu am y Gemau Olympaidd yn taro’r sector gwirfoddol yn arbennig o galed. Mae llawer o gyrff yn ei chael hi’n anodd cynnal eu cyllid craidd ac mae nifer o gyrff wedi gorfod gohirio cynlluniau i fuddsoddi cyfalaf. Mae cymunedau’n colli cyllid oherwydd y modd y mae arian yn draenio allan tua Llundain ar

95

24/02/2009

is very little that the Assembly Government can do about that, apart from protest, but it is still a pertinent fact and one that needs to be taken into account when we consider how services are delivered across Wales by local authorities and by other authorities funded directly by the Welsh Assembly Government. I hope that the Minister will be able to take cognisance of that. However, it is not just this Minister’s responsibility; it is the responsibility of all of Ministers in this Government to make sure that they are aware of the difficulties facing the third sector, and that, where services are being delivered by those organisations, they are able to deal with them.

gyfer 2012. Gwn nad oes fawr ddim y gall Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ei wneud ynglŷn â hynny, ar wahân i brotestio, ond mae’n dal yn ffaith berthnasol ac yn un y mae angen ei hystyried wrth feddwl sut y cyflenwir gwasanaethau ledled Cymru gan awdurdodau lleol a chan awdurdodau eraill a ariennir yn uniongyrchol gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. Gobeithiaf y bydd y Gweinidog yn gallu rhoi sylw i hynny. Fodd bynnag, nid cyfrifoldeb y Gweinidog hwn yn unig yw hyn; mae’n gyfrifoldeb ar bob Gweinidog yn y Llywodraeth hon i wneud yn siŵr eu bod yn ymwybodol o’r anawsterau sy’n wynebu’r trydydd sector, a lle cyflenwir gwasanaethau gan y cyrff hyn, eu bod yn gallu delio â hwy.

The issue that I wanted to particularly highlight was the protocol around funding for third sector organisations, particularly the idea that they should have a period of time to deliver what is required of them by that funding. That period of time is normally acknowledged as three years, but in some cases it is as long as five years. I know that the Government is working very hard to ensure that any funding that it puts in place for those organisations is delivered for a three-year period so that we can have some continuity. I also know that the Wales Council for Voluntary Action is doing a lot of important work in this respect.

Y mater yr oeddwn yn arbennig o awyddus i dynnu sylw ato oedd y protocol ynghylch cyllid i gyrff y trydydd sector, yn enwedig y syniad y dylent gael cyfnod o amser i gyflenwi’r hyn a ofynnir ganddynt am y cyllid hwnnw. Cydnabyddir fel rheol mai tair blynedd yw’r cyfnod hwnnw, ond mewn rhai achosion mae gyhyd â phum mlynedd. Gwn fod y Llywodraeth yn gweithio’n galed iawn i sicrhau bod unrhyw gyllid a sefydla ar gyfer y cyrff hynny’n cael ei gyflenwi am gyfnod tair blynedd fel y gallwn gael rhyw gymaint o ddilyniant. Gwn hefyd fod Cyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru’n gwneud llawer o waith pwysig yn hyn o beth.

However, when you look at funding from local government, you will see that there is a mixed picture. Although most local authorities are delivering in accordance with those protocols, there are always examples of where third sector organisations are missing out because funding is not available on that basis, or because funding is being cut back. I suppose that that is inevitable given that local authorities are under severe budgetary pressure, but we need to work much more closely with local councils to ensure that their protocols are robust and that, where they are funding third sector organisations, they follow the protocol to the best of their ability. In particular, where they have commissioned third sector organisations to deliver services, they should do so on a fair, equitable and consistent basis across Wales. That is not to say that I am inviting the Minister to interfere in the way in which local authorities conduct their work, but it is a dialogue that needs to

Fodd bynnag, ac edrych ar gyllid oddi wrth lywodraeth leol, gwelwch fod yno ddarlun cymysg. Er bod y rhan fwyaf o awdurdodau lleol yn cyflenwi’n unol â’r protocolau hynny, ceir enghreifftiau o hyd lle mae cyrff y trydydd sector ar eu colled am nad yw cyllid ar gael ar y sail honno, neu am fod cyllid yn cael ei gwtogi. Mae hynny’n anochel, am wn i, gan fod awdurdodau lleol dan bwysau cyllidebol difrifol, ond mae angen inni weithio’n agosach o lawer gyda chynghorau lleol i sicrhau bod eu protocolau’n gadarn a, lle maent yn ariannu cyrff y trydydd sector, eu bod yn dilyn y protocol orau y gallant. Yn enwedig, lle maent wedi comisiynu cyrff y trydydd sector i gyflenwi gwasanaethau, dylent wneud hynny ar sail deg, gyfiawn a chyson ar draws Cymru. Nid yw hynny’n gyfystyr â dweud fy mod yn gwahodd y Gweinidog i ymyrryd yn y modd y gwna awdurdodau lleol eu gwaith, ond mae’n ddeialog sydd angen parhau os

96

24/02/2009

continue if we are to achieve a level playing field for all third sector organisations across Wales.

ydym am sicrhau cae chwarae gwastad i bob corff trydydd sector ledled Cymru.

David Lloyd: Mae’n bleser gennyf gyfrannu at y ddadl ar gynllun y sector gwirfoddol, gan gydnabod cyfraniad allweddol y sector fel y gwnaeth eraill eisoes. Gan fy mod, yn fy amser rhydd, yn is-lywydd Cymdeithas Alzheimer Abertawe ac yn is-gadeirydd Crossroads, sy’n gofalu am ofalwyr, yr wyf yn llwyr ymwybodol o hynny.

David Lloyd: It is a pleasure to contribute to the debate on the voluntary sector scheme, and to acknowledge the sector’s key contribution, as others have already done. In my spare time, I am vice-president of the Swansea Alzheimer Association and vice-chair of Crossroads, which cares for carers, so I am well aware of that.

Felly, wrth gydnabod a llongyfarch y sector gwirfoddol ar ei gyfraniad allweddol, mae hefyd yn bryd inni dalu teyrnged i wirfoddoli fel endid iach ynddo’i hun—y glud hwnnw mewn cymdeithas. Nid unigolion ydym yn unig—gallwn hefyd gydweithio, fel yr esboniodd Janice Gregory. Mae nifer o adroddiadau wedi eu cyhoeddi ar y pwnc hwn—cyhoeddwyd adroddiad y llynedd yn olrhain cyfraniad ein cymunedau ffydd i’n cymunedau ac i’n heconomi. Mae’n heglwysi a’n capeli a’r gwirfoddolwyr sydd ynghlwm â hwy yn werth tua £100 miliwn i economi Cymru yn unig bob blwyddyn. Mae’r sector gwirfoddol yn darparu gwasanaethau o’r radd flaenaf. Mae’r dyddiau pan yr oeddent yn darparu paned o de a chysur yn unig bellach yn angof—dyma gyrff sy’n darparu gwasanaethau i’r un lefel o arbenigedd â chyrff statudol. Mae hynny’n gryfder ac yn wendid, gan eich bod yn gallu colli’r elfen wirfoddol iach honno.

Therefore, in acknowledging and congratulating the voluntary sector on its key contribution, it is also timely for us to pay tribute to volunteering as a healthy entity in itself—the glue within society. We are not simply individuals—we can also work together, as Janice Gregory explained. A number of reports have been published on this issue—a report was published last year that outlined the contribution of our faith communities to our communities and our economy. Our churches and chapels and the volunteers involved with them are worth £100 million to the Welsh economy alone every year. The voluntary sector provides services of the highest quality. The days when they provided no more than cups of tea and comfort are long gone—these people provide services on the same specialist level as statutory staff. That is a strength and a weakness, as you lose that healthy element of volunteering.

Mae pryderon parhaus am arian a chyllid sicr craidd ac ati. Gwyntyllwyd hyn yn adolygiad y Pwyllgor Cymunedau a Diwylliant y clywsom amdano gan Janice Gregory, y Cadeirydd, mewn adroddiad sydd yn werth ei ddarllen yn dilyn arolwg cynhwysfawr o’r holl faes. Clywsom gri o’r galon gan y sector gwirfoddol i fod yn bartner gwirioneddol gyda’r Llywodraeth, ac nid yn bartner arwynebol sy’n gorfod cynnig am arian o wahanol ffynonellau yn gyson—mae gorfod meddwl am y geiniog nesaf o hyd yn sugno amser ac egni ac yn ffrwyno datblygiad. Ni ddylai’r sector orfod derbyn sefyllfaoedd ariannol bregus flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn. Y gri o’r galon i’n pwyllgor oedd i’r Llywodraeth ystyried y sector gwirfoddol fel partner cyfartal gwirioneddol—partner sy’n rhannu gweledigaeth y Llywodraeth, partner

There are continuous concerns about money and secure core funding and so on. This was raised in the Communities and Culture Committee’s review that was mentioned by Janice Gregory, the Chair, in a report that is worth reading, following a comprehensive review of the whole area. We heard a heartfelt plea from the voluntary sector to be a real partner with the Government, and not a superficial partner that regularly has to bid for funding from various sources—having to always think about the next penny wastes time and energy and hinders development. The sector should not have to accept fragile financial positions year after year. The heartfelt plea to our committee was for the Government to consider the voluntary sector as an equal partner—a partner that shares the Government’s vision to achieve for the

97

24/02/2009

sydd am helpu Llywodraeth i gyflawni er mwyn pobl Cymru, a phartner sy’n teilyngu cyllid sicr craidd hirdymor os yw’n gweithredu yn genedlaethol, er mwyn ei alluogi i weithredu law yn llaw â’r Llywodraeth, tra’n cynnal ei annibyniaeth a’i elfen o wirfoddoli gwirioneddol.

people of Wales, and a partner that deserves secure long-term core funding if it operates nationally, to allow it to work hand in hand with the Government, while maintaining its independence and its real element of volunteering.

O glywed y dystiolaeth gref yn adolygiad y Pwyllgor Cymunedau a Diwylliant ac wrth edrych ar y cynllun sector gwirfoddol, bydd llawer o eiriau melys wrth sôn am y sector a digon o sôn am bartneriaethau, ond, 10 mlynedd ers datganoli, y neges i’r Llywodraeth, fel pawb arall, yw ei bod yn bryd cyflawni a thynnu at ein gilydd er budd pobl Cymru.

After hearing the strong evidence in the Communities and Culture Committee and in looking at the voluntary sector scheme, many warm words will be spoken about the sector and there will be plenty of talk of partnerships but, 10 years after devolution, the message to the Government, like everyone else, is that it is time to deliver and to pull together for the benefit of the people of Wales.

5.10 p.m.

The Minister for Social Justice and Local Government (Brian Gibbons): Inevitably in a debate like this, one of the most consistent themes is concern about money and sustainable funding. It is important that people remember that the Assembly Government contributes around £294 million to third sector organisations in Wales. It is a vast sum of money, which may seem to be a dramatic increase on previous estimates—although one of the reasons for that may be better accounting. Nonetheless, providing £300 million to the third sector, directly from Assembly Government departments, is a significant investment.

Y Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth leol (Brian Gibbons): Yn anochel mewn dadl fel hon, un o’r themâu mwyaf cyson yw pryder am arian a chyllid cynaliadwy. Mae’n bwysig i bobl gofio bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn cyfrannu tua £294 miliwn i gyrff trydydd sector yng Nghymru. Mae’n swm enfawr o arian, a all ymddangos yn gynnydd dramatig ar amcangyfrifon blaenorol—er efallai fod cyfrifo gwell yn un o’r rhesymau dros hynny. Serch hynny, mae darparu £300 miliwn i’r trydydd sector, yn uniongyrchol o adrannau Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, yn fuddsoddiad sylweddol.

That investment does not include money drawn down by third sector organisations from other sources, such as European funds. There is also a recognition that third sector organisations need to look at other ways of raising funds, rather than to depend on the traditional grant mentality. That is why the procurement process is so important, and that is why we, as an Assembly Government, and the third sector organisations themselves, are fully engaged in working with Value Wales to ensure that those organisations are at the races in terms of the procurement process that operates in Wales. Any major third-sector player that is not up to speed with the sell2wales and buy4wales schemes needs to look at its priorities. That is a key message from this debate.

Nid yw’r buddsoddiad hwnnw’n cynnwys arian a dynnir i lawr gan gyrff trydydd sector o ffynonellau eraill, fel arian Ewropeaidd. Cydnabyddir hefyd fod angen i gyrff trydydd sector edrych at ffyrdd eraill o godi arian, yn hytrach na dibynnu ar y meddylfryd grantiau traddodiadol. Dyna pam mae’r broses gaffael mor bwysig, a dyna pam yr ydym ni, fel Llywodraeth Cynulliad, a’r cyrff trydydd sector eu hunain, yn ymroi’n llawn i weithio gyda Gwerth Cymru i sicrhau bod gan y cyrff hynny siawns yn nhermau’r broses gaffael sy’n gweithredu yng Nghymru. Mae angen i unrhyw brif aelod o’r trydydd sector nad yw o gwmpas ei bethau gyda’r cynlluniau GwerthwchiGymru a PrynwchiGymru edrych ar ei flaenoriaethau. Dyna neges allweddol o’r ddadl hon.

98

24/02/2009

We are committed to providing three-year funding cycles; that is virtually the norm in terms of how we support the sector at the moment. Peter Black mentioned extending those three-year cycles to five-year or seven-year cycles, and there is certainly merit in considering that. However, we regularly meet organisations that are not part of the procurement or tendering processes at the moment, and to hear that you cannot get involved for five or seven years can seem a long time if you are not part of the process or the service delivery funding mechanism at that particular time.

Yr ydym wedi ymrwymo i ddarparu cylchoedd ariannu tair blynedd; dyna’r norm i bob pwrpas yn nhermau’r modd y cefnogwn y sector ar hyn o bryd. Soniodd Peter Black am ymestyn y cylchoedd tair blynedd hynny i fod yn gylchoedd pum mlynedd neu saith mlynedd, ac yn sicr mae rhinwedd mewn ystyried hynny. Fodd bynnag, cyfarfyddwn yn rheolaidd â chyrff nad ydynt yn rhan o’r prosesau caffael na thendro ar hyn o bryd, a gall clywed na allwch gael eich troed i mewn am bump neu saith mlynedd deimlo fel amser maith os nad ydych yn rhan o’r broses neu’r mecanwaith ariannu cyflenwad gwasanaethau ar y pryd.

A few points were made about the compacts. It is important that the partnerships that exist between the third sector and local government are sufficiently resilient in these difficult times. There is much anecdotal evidence that the compacts and the liaison groups that flourished at a certain time are coming under pressure. The concerns that Members have raised in relation to that are well-based, and we need to monitor that continuously.

Gwnaethpwyd ychydig o bwyntiau am y compactau. Mae’n bwysig fod y partneriaethau sy’n bodoli rhwng y trydydd sector a llywodraeth leol yn ddigon gwydn yn y cyfnod anodd hwn. Mae llawer o hanesion fod y compactau a’r grwpiau cyswllt a ffynnodd un tro yn dod dan bwysau. Mae seiliau da i’r pryderon y mae Aelodau wedi’u codi ynglŷn â hynny, ac mae angen inni gadw llygad ar hynny’n barhaus.

Dai Lloyd is right that faith groups make a significant contribution to our society, and there is a tremendous reservoir of goodwill among those groups. As an Assembly Government, we need to reach out and engage more effectively with them.

Mae Dai Lloyd yn iawn fod grwpiau ffydd yn gwneud cyfraniad arwyddocaol i’n cymdeithas, ac mae cronfa enfawr o ewyllys da ymysg y grwpiau hynny. Fel Llywodraeth Cynulliad, mae angen inni ymestyn allan ac ymwneud yn fwy effeithiol â hwy.

I had the privilege of attending part of the proceedings of the inter-governmental British-Irish Council last week. A number of third sector concerns were part of the reason why the council was meeting. Third sector councils from other parts of the home islands were very surprised with the level of engagement that we have with the third sector in Wales. We have partnership councils, we organise biannual meetings with Ministers where concerns can be raised, and we ensure that the sector plays a key role in procurement and service delivery. Many other third sector organisations would like to be able to have the relationship that exists in Wales with their Governments and administrations. Of course, that is not a reason for complacency on our part. The sector is facing difficulties, strains and stresses, and we need to recognise that.

Cefais y fraint o fynychu rhan o gyfarfod y Cyngor Prydeinig-Gwyddelig rhyng-lywodraethol yr wythnos diwethaf. Nifer o bryderon am y trydydd sector oedd rhan o’r rheswm pam yr oedd y cyngor yn cyfarfod. Yr oedd cynghorau trydydd sector o rannau eraill o’r ynysoedd hyn yn synnu’n fawr at y lefel o ymwneud sydd gennym ni â’r trydydd sector yng Nghymru. Mae gennym gynghorau partneriaeth, trefnwn gyfarfodydd chwe-misol gyda Gweinidogion lle gellir lleisio pryderon, a sicrhawn fod y sector yn chwarae rôl allweddol mewn caffael a chyflenwi gwasanaethau. Byddai llawer o gyrff trydydd sector eraill yn hoffi gallu cael y berthynas sy’n bodoli yng Nghymru gyda’u Llywodraethau a’u gweinyddiaethau hwy. Wrth gwrs, nid yw hynny’n rheswm dros laesu dwylo ar ein rhan ni. Mae’r sector yn wynebu anawsterau, straen a phwysau, ac

99

24/02/2009

mae angen inni gydnabod hynny.

The sector is facing a difficult time. It is too early to cast a shroud of doom over the sector as things stand, as amendment 1 suggests, but it is important that we maintain an active liaison with it and keep monitoring the situation, and are able to provide support if circumstances emerge that put the sector under increasing pressure. That point is well made.

Mae’r sector yn wynebu cyfnod anodd. Mae’n rhy gynnar tynnu llen tynged dros y sector fel y mae pethau, fel yr awgryma gwelliant 1, ond mae’n bwysig inni gadw cysylltiad gweithgar ag ef a pharhau i fonitro’r sefyllfa’n ofalus, a’n bod ni’n gallu rhoi cymorth os daw amgylchiadau i’r amlwg sy’n rhoi’r sector o dan bwysau cynyddol. Mae hwnnw’n bwynt da.

In conclusion, we all realise the key role that third sector organisations play in Wales. In his contribution, Dai Lloyd said that the third sector is part of the glue that binds us together and contributes to social cohesion in Wales. I fully agree with that, and it is incumbent on us all to give whatever support we can to the sector, to make this a richer and more vibrant country.

I gloi, sylweddolwn oll y rôl allweddol mae mudiadau’r trydydd sector yn ei chwarae yng Nghymru. Yn ei gyfraniad, dywedodd Dai Lloyd fod y trydydd sector yn rhan o’r glud sy’n ein cadw at ein gilydd a’i fod yn cyfrannu at gydlyniad cymdeithasol yng Nghymru. Cytunaf yn llwyr â hynny, ac mae’n ddyletswydd arnom oll i roi pa gymorth bynnag y gallwn i’r sector, i wneud hon yn wlad gyfoethocach a mwy ffyniannus.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is that amendment 1 be agreed. Is there any objection? I see that there is. Therefore, all voting on this item will be deferred until voting time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw bod gwelliant 1 yn cael ei dderbyn. A oes gwrthwynebiad? Gwelaf fod. Felly, caiff pob pleidlais ar yr eitem hon ei gohirio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

It is after 5 p.m., and so we can move straight to voting time, but does any Member wish the bell to be rung first? I see not, therefore we will move straight to voting time.

Mae wedi 5 p.m., felly gallwn ddechrau’r cyfnod pleidleisio, ond a hoffai unrhyw Aelod i’r gloch gael ei chanu’n gyntaf? Gwelaf nad oes cais am i hynny ddigwydd, felly awn ati i bleidleisio.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisiau tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.Votes deferred until voting time.

Cyfnod PleidleisioVoting Time

Cynnig NDM4146: O blaid 40, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 10.Motion NDM4146: For 40, Abstain 0, Against 10.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, Andrew

Bourne, NickCairns, AlunDavies, PaulGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickWilliams, Brynle

100

24/02/2009

Davies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGerman, MichaelGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, AnnJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, TrishLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRanderson, JennyRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWilliams, KirstyWood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion carried.

Gwelliant 1 i NDM4147: O blaid 15, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 35.Amendment 1 to NDM4147: For 15, Abstain 0, Against 35.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Black, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorCairns, AlunDavies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, AnnJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, TrishLewis, HuwLloyd, David

101

24/02/2009

Lloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment defeated.

Gwelliant 2 i NDM4147: O blaid 50, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0.Amendment 2 to NDM4147: For 50, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorCairns, AlunChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynDavies, PaulEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGerman, MichaelGibbons, BrianGraham, WilliamGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, JaneIsherwood, MarkJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, AnnJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, TrishLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMelding, DavidMewies, SandyMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanMorgan, RhodriRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri Glyn

102

24/02/2009

Watson, JoyceWilliams, BrynleWilliams, KirstyWood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.Amendment carried.

Motion NDM4147 as amended: that Cynnig NDM4147 fel y’i diwygiwyd: bod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

1. welcomes progress made in implementing the actions arising from ‘The third dimension’—a strategic action plan for the voluntary sector scheme;

1. yn croesawu’r cynnydd a wnaed wrth weithredu’r camau sy’n deillio o’r ddogfen ‘Y trydydd dimensiwn’—cynllun gweithredu strategol ar gyfer y cynllun sector gwirfoddol;

2. notes the action taken to implement the voluntary sector scheme in the period up to 31 March 2008;

2. yn nodi’r camau a gymerwyd er mwyn rhoi cynllun y sector gwirfoddol ar waith yn ystod y cyfnod hyd at 31 Mawrth 2008;

3. notes the publication of the voluntary sector scheme annual report;

3. yn nodi bod adroddiad blynyddol cynllun y sector gwirfoddol wedi’i gyhoeddi;

4. urges the Welsh Assembly Government to simplify the funding process for the voluntary sector by consolidating individual funding streams and promoting three year funding as the norm across the public sector.

4. yn annog Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i symleiddio'r broses gyllido ar gyfer y sector gwirfoddol drwy gyfuno ffrydiau ariannu unigol a hyrwyddo trefn gyllido tair blynedd fel y norm ar draws y sector cyhoeddus.

Cynnig NDM4147 fel y’i diwygiwyd: O blaid 50, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0.Motion NDM4147 as amended: For 50, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Andrews, LeightonAsghar, MohammadBarrett, LorraineBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorCairns, AlunChapman, ChristineCuthbert, JeffDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, AndrewDavies, JocelynDavies, PaulEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGerman, MichaelGibbons, BrianGraham, WilliamGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHutt, Jane

103

24/02/2009

Isherwood, MarkJames, IreneJenkins, BethanJones, AnnJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLaw, TrishLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMelding, DavidMewies, SandyMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanMorgan, RhodriRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyRyder, JanetSargeant, CarlThomas, GwendaThomas, Rhodri GlynWatson, JoyceWilliams, BrynleWilliams, KirstyWood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd cynnig NDM4147 fel y’i diwygiwyd.Motion NDM4147 as amended carried.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: That brings today’s business to a close.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Daw hynny â chyfarfod heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.18 p.m.The meeting ended at 5.18 p.m.

Aelodau a’u PleidiauMembers and their Parties

Andrews, Leighton (Llafur – Labour)Asghar, Mohammad (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Barrett, Lorraine (Llafur – Labour)Bates, Mick (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Black, Peter (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Bourne, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Burnham, Eleanor (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Burns, Angela (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Butler, Rosemary (Llafur – Labour)Cairns, Alun (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Chapman, Christine (Llafur – Labour)Cuthbert, Jeff (Llafur – Labour)Davidson, Jane (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Alun (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Andrew (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Andrew R.T. (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Davies, Jocelyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Davies, Paul (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Elis-Thomas, Dafydd (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Evans, Nerys (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Franks, Chris (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)German, Michael (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Graham, William (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Gregory, Janice (Llafur – Labour)Griffiths, John (Llafur – Labour)

104

24/02/2009

Griffiths, Lesley (Llafur – Labour)Gibbons, Brian (Llafur – Labour)Hart, Edwina (Llafur – Labour)Hutt, Jane (Llafur – Labour)Isherwood, Mark (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)James, Irene (Llafur – Labour)Jenkins, Bethan (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Alun Ffred (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Ann (Llafur – Labour)Jones, Carwyn (Llafur – Labour)Jones, Elin (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Gareth (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Helen Mary (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Law, Trish (Annibynnol – Independent)Lewis, Huw (Llafur – Labour)Lloyd, David (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Lloyd, Val (Llafur – Labour)Melding, David (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Mewies, Sandy (Llafur – Labour)Millar, Darren (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Morgan, Jonathan (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Morgan, Rhodri (Llafur – Labour)Neagle, Lynne (Llafur – Labour)Ramsay, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Randerson, Jenny (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Ryder, Janet (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Sargeant, Carl (Llafur – Labour)Sinclair, Karen (Llafur – Labour)Thomas, Gwenda (Llafur – Labour)Thomas, Rhodri Glyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Watson, Joyce (Llafur – Labour)Williams, Brynle (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Williams, Kirsty (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Wood, Leanne (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)

105