7073

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK

3 ------------------------------------x 4 GENERAL WILLIAM C. WESTMORELAND,

5 Plainti'ff,

6 v. 82 Civ. 7913 PNL

7 COLUMBIA BROADCASTING SYSTEM, INC.,·

8 GEORGE CRILE, MICHAEL WALLACE and

9 SAMUEL A. ADAMS,

10 Defendants.

11 ------------------------------------x 12 January 16, 1985

13 10:00 a.m.

14

15

16 (Trial resumed)

17 (In open court; jury not present)

18 THE COURT: Good morning.

19 SA."1 ADAMS resumed.

20 THE COURT: Counsel, I have a note from one of

21 the jurors to the effect that a juror's relative or a

22 friend is in court today. So be advised accordingly as to

23 when the jury is not in the room.

24 Ready to proceed?

25 MR. DORSEN: Yes, your Honor.

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE r .... ' ~v ro ..... I1 .... .,. .. ,eu, v ....... v .. , v ..... . n""

Adams - cross 7074

1 THE COURT: Call the jury, please.

2 (Jury present)

3 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury.

4 JURORS: Good morning.

5 THE COURT: We will proceed now to the

6 cross-examination of the defendant Samuel Mams.

7 Mr. Dorsen, you may proceed.

8 MR. DORSEN: Thank you, your Honor.

9 CROSS-EXAMINATION

10 BY MR. DORSEN:

11 Q. Mr. Mams, I would like to first direct your

12 attention to the 1967 February conference in Honolulu. You

13 were in attendance there, weren't you?

14 A. I was, yes.

15 Q. Now, at that conference isn't it a fact that

16 MACV presented some numer ical estimates of sel f-defense

17 militia, secret self-defense militia, guerrillas, the

18 irregular category, as well as the political category?

19 A. My recollection is, having reviewed the

20 documentation at the time, that they did present a figure

21 for the political cadres at the time, what was described in

22 the briefing as a preliminary first-cut estimate of the

23 number of political cadres. Of irregulars, they did not.

24 Q.

25 A.

Are you sure of that, Mr. Adams?

Wha t' s tha t?

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPOR TERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE

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Adams - cross 7075

1 Q. Are you sure of that?

2 A. I am sure of that. I have reviewed my notes and

3 I am sure of that.

4 Q. Mr. Adams, I would like to show you Exhibit 269.

5 Is 269 a memorandum that you wrote, Mr. Adams?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. And did you wr ite it on or about November 9 ,

8 1967?

9 A. I did .

10 Q. I would like to direct your attention to page 2,

11 subparagraph b. Could you read that out loud, please?

12 A. Subparagraph b says: "An unpub lished MACV study,

13 the existence of which was surfaced in Hawaii in February

14 1967, based almost entirely on data of earlier years, wh ich

15 indicated there were 198,000 Vietcong irregulars, 13,000

16 mor e than carried in a draft study on irregulars dated 1

17 September 1967. The earlier study is probably more

18 accurate."

19 Q. Who a t tend ed

20 A. I would like to point out here, if I could, tha t

21 I said the existence of this study was -- surfaced in

22 Hawaii February' 67, which it was. We did not find out

23 about the study itself until a month or two later .

24 Q.

25 mean?

When you say surfaced, Mr. Adams, what do you

SOUT HERN DISTR ICT REPORTER S. U.S. COURTH OUSE

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Adams - cross 7076

1 A. The existence of the study surfaced, came to

2 light, the fact that this study existed. The number did

3 not come to light until sometime later. I believe it was

4 in late March.

5 Q. How did the number come to light in March, Mr.

6 Adams?

7 A. The number came to light -- at least, I found

8 out about the number in a -- I believe a draft cable sent

9 in March of 1967 from CIA headquarters to -- correction

10 sent from the Saigon station to CIA headquarters,

11 indicating that MACV J-2 had come up with a preliminary

12 study concerning the number of Vietcong irregulars, and

13 that it was preliminary and not yet published or official.

14 Q. And it was 198,000?

15 A. My recollection is it was 198.

16 Q. Did the number 198,000 surface at Honolulu?

17 A. The number 198,000 did not surface at Honolulu.

18 It wasn't until this later March one -- later March cable

19 came back. However, the existence that such a study was

20 being done, the existence of a study, surfaced at Hawaii,

21 as it says here.

22 Q. And who in Hawaii learned of the existence of

23 this study in February of 1967, Mr. Adams?

24

25 A.

THE COURT: To your knowledge.

TO my knowledge, I think that most of the people

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.S. COURTHOUSE

FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y. - 791-1020

Adams - cross 7077

1 who attended the conference knew that a draft study was

2 being worked on.

3 Q. And they knew, therefore, that it was likely

4 that a higher estimate of irregulars than was carried in

5 the OB was likely to be forthcoming?

6 A. That is correct, yes, sir.

7 Q. It was no secret, was it, Mr. Adams?

8 A. That -- yes, I believe in fact that the February

9 conference, the February 1967 conference, issued a report

10 which indicated that the size of the irregular force was

11 going to be increased, the size -- the estimate, irregular

12 estimate, was going to be increased, the size of the

13 political cadre estimate was going to be increased, and the

14 size of the admin service estimate was going to be

15 increased. There was no secret about that.

16 THE COURT: I am sorry. The first category that

17 you referred to, it wasn't clear whether you said that the

18 size of the regular or the size of the irregular would be

19 increased.

20 THE WITNESS: Irregular.

21 Q. Did any number surface for political cadre in

22 February 1967?

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A. A preliminary estimate I believe in the

ne ig hborhood 0 f 90,000 sur faced. It was labeled as just

that. It was a prel iminary estimate.

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Adams - cross 7078

1 o. Do you know who, other than the CIA, received

2 MACV's preliminary estimate of irregulars in or about March

3 of 1967?

4 A. I really couldn't say. I know I did.

5 o. So that as of March 1967, is it your testimony

6 that MACV had told the CIA that its preliminary estimate

7 for irregulars was 198,000?

8 A. As of

9 o. March 1967. Excuse me.

10 A. There was an indication, yes, that we had

11 there was an indication that there was a preliminary MACV

12 study in existence saying there were 198,000 irregulars.

13 o. And as of February 1967 is it your testimony

14 that CIA, DIA, and a number of other intelligence agencies,

15 knew that MACV's preliminary estimate of political cadre

16 was in the vicinity of 90,000?

17 A. I can't speak for, you know, CIA or MACV, CIA or

18 DIA. I speak for myself. I did.

19 o. Mr. Adams, do you recall seeing a trip report of

20 a Major Barrie Williams of the DIA using numbers in April

21 1967 similar to 198,000 for irregulars and 80 or 90,000 for

22 political cadre?

23 A. Prior to the broadcast, I saw no such report, no.

24 Q. Prior to the broadcast, however, you had been

25 talking to Major Williams, is that correct?

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.S. COURTH OUSE

FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK . N .Y. - 791.1020

Adams - cross 7079

1 A. Yes, I had.

2 Q. And had Maj or wi 11 iams told you in any of the

3 conversations you had prior to the broadcast that MACV had

4 communicated to him its preliminary estimates of 198,000

5 irregulars and 80 or 90,000 political cadre?

6 A. I recall no such conversation.

7 Q. Did you ask him?

8 A. Did I ask him. I don ' t -- I can recall no sUC" \:

9 conversation . Whether the subject came up or not, I don '~

10 know .

11 Q. You say you do not recall whether or not you

12 asked Barr ie Will iams whether MACV had communicated to h i m

13 in the early spr ing of 1967 that MACV had reache d

14 preliminary estimates of 198,000 irregulars and 80 or

15 90,000 political cadre? Is that your testimony?

16 A. That is my testimony, because for one thing, I

17 wa sn't an ywhere that I could talk to Barrie Will i a ms at t he

18 time, because I remember going back to headquarters in

19 February '67 and right after that I went out to Saigon and

20 spent the next -- spent the next two months, I think, in

21 Vietnam .

22 Q. Mr. Adams, I am asking about at any time prior

23 to January of 1982 did you ask Barrie Williams whether he

24 had learned from MACV of the prel iminary higher estimates

25 of irregulars of 198,000 and of political cadre of

SO UTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE

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Adams - cross 7080

1 something in the vicinity of 90,000 .

2 A. I don't recall ever having asked him that

3 subject, no, asked him about that.

4 Q. Mr. Adams, do you remember whether you and Mr.

5 Williams met together in Saigon in March or so of 1967?

6 A. In Saigon in March of '67?

7 Q. Correct.

8 A. 1 can't remember, no.

9 Q. Now, there came a time, didn't there, Mr. Adams,

10 when the CIA prepared a draft of what later became SNIE

11 14.3-67, is that correct?

12 A. That's correct, yes, sir.

13 Q. And tha t draft, first draft, was dated, wa s it

14 not, June 14, 1967 ?

15 A. Yes, sir, 1 bel ieve so.

16 Q. And Bobby Layton of the CIA was what, the

17 pr i nc i pa l draf t sman of that document?

18 A. As far as I know, he was. 1 bel ieve he was . I

19 don't know for certain. I bel ieve he was.

20 Q. And do you know when he started prepa r ing the

21 draft?

22 A. I really couldn't tell you. It obvious l y would

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be sometime before the 14th. It was a thic k piece of pa pe r.

Q.

A.

It t o ok wh a t, a month or longer, do you know?

I never asked him how long it took to write --

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORT ERS. U.S. COURTH OUSE

FOLEY SQU ARE, NEW YORK. N.Y. - 791.1020

Adams - cross 7081

1 how long he took to write the draft, which is, you know,

2 probably 40, 50 pages thick.

3 Q. Did you have any input into the draft?

4 A. I didn't write any of it, no. I remember Bobby

5 Layton called me up and asked me what numbers I thought

6 were appropriate to go into the draft.

7 Q. And you told him?

8 A. I am sure I must have. I don't know. I don't

9 recall, but I am sure I must have.

10 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that Bobby

11 Layton of the CIA did not take your views into account in

12 preparing the first draft of SNIE 14.3-67?

13 A. Well, I know he took my views into account.

14 Q. And isn't it true, Mr. Adams, that you have no

15 substantial disagreements with the draft SNIE l4.3-67?

16 MR. BO IES: Objection, your Honor.

17 THE COURT: As to form?

18 MR. BOIES: Yes, your Honor.

19 THE COURT: As to the time reference?

20 MR. BO I ES: As to the time reference and to

21 putting a 40-page document without specifying what he is

22 talking about.

23 THE COURT: Well, it's sustained at least with

24 respect to the time reference. You're asking him whether

25 he now has any substantial disagreement.

SOUTHERN DISTRI CT REPO RTER S. U.S. COURTHOUSE

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Adams - cross 7082

1 MR. DORSEN: Your Honor, if I may be heard

2 briefly on that. I can say it in front of the court. I

3 don't think there will be any problem. And that is Mr.

4 Adams has put his present belief as to the broadcast in

5 issue.

6 THE COURT: At least for clarification, you may

7 break it up into several questions.

8 MR. DORSEN: I will do that, your Honor.

9 BY MR. DORSEN:

10 Q. Let me ask you about the time period of 1967,

11 Mr . Adams.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you recall whether at any time prior to the

14 August session in Langley you had what you consid e red a

15 substantial disagreement with any of the drafts of the

16 proposed NIE?

17 A. I would have to see the propose d draft of t he

18 NIE to be able to answe r that one.

19 Q. Mr. Adams, didn't you answer that question at

20 your deposition?

21 A. I may well have.

22 Q. And wa sn't your answer "I don't believe I had

23 any substantial disagreements with the earlier dr af ts,

24 substantial di sagreements"?

25 A. I would have -- I would agree with that.

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPOR TER S. U.S. COURTHOUSE FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK . N.Y. _ 791-1020

I

Adams - cross 7083

1 didn't believe at the time that I had any substantial

2 disagreements. But for me to comment on that I would have

3 to see what you're talking about.

4 Q. Hr. Adams, that document isn't something that

5 you have not paid some attention to over the years, is it?

6 A. I have certainly read it, yes.

7 Q. In fact, isn't it a fact that for the last seven

8 years you have been doing very little else than working on

9 this matter, the question of the events in Saigon and the

10 order of battle dispute in 1967 and 1968?

11 A. In fact, I am doing a lot of other things. I

12 had a farm, a 250 acre farm, which I was working on. I

13 also spent a lot of time, as you suggest, on this subject.

14 However, I didn't read, reread, the 14 June 67

15 draft. The copy you have, I presume that you have, has a

16 lot of omissions in it, and so I d idn' t read that thing

17 thoroughly. If you want me to comment on it I would like

18 to see it, please.

19 MR. DORSEN: Hay the record reflect that I am

20 providing the witness a copy of 14.3-67, the first draft,

21 dated June 14, 1967, I believe. It's on the second page.

22

23

24 your Honor.

25 Q.

THE COURT: What is the exhibi t number, please?

MR. DORSEN: I am sorry. The exhibit is 392,

First, Hr. Adams, would you look at paragraph 37

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.S. COURTHOUSE

FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y . - 791.1020

Adams - cross 7084

1 of the draft. While the copy is a rather poor one, Mr.

2 Adams, isn't it accurate to state that the figure in the

3 draft was 80,000, with a proviso that there could be at

4 least as many -- I am sorry, Mr. Adams.

5 Why don't you tell me what your under stand i ng of

6 this paragraph is, which is obliterated, what the figure

7 was for the political cadre in the June 14 draft prepared

8 by Bobby Layton, to which you have testified you

9 contributed.

10 Maybe to help you, Mr. Adams, it starts on page

11 30922 and goes over to page 30923.

12 A. I see what you're talking about, page 37.

13 THE COURT: Paragraph 37.

14 A. Pardon. Paragraph 37.

15 As you can see, sir, there is considerable

16 the r e is only a little chunk of the paragraph on page 30922.

17 A lot of it is obscured down here. And the same is true up

18 here.

19 Q. Mr. Adams, why don't you read into the record

20 what you can of paragraph 37.

21 Am I correct that you saw this in its original

22 form? Is that right?

23 A. I don't really know whether I did. I assume I

24 did. I don't know.

25 (Continued on next page)

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Adams - cross 7085

Q. You didn't get it this way, did you, you didn't

get it largely obliterated, did you?

A. No, I didn't get it largely obliterated. But

that doesn't mean -- you know, the part that is missing.

Q. Why don't you make your best effort to read in

that paragraph, explain the words that you actually can

read, and if you recall, the words that are missing.

A. "The two remaining components of the communist

structure are the militia and the political OB. The latter

includes the communists ..... then blank part, "and the

leadership blank blank on front. Both of two main aus nel

to which extent from the nation blank the OB strength is

dif."

THE COURT: You misread the next line.

THE WITNESS: Excuse me, "the political OB

strength is dif blank unlimited data available there blank

80,000 personnel who should be include blank our

information concerning the strength of th blank blank

ca tcha11 ca tegory of poorl y armed and tra ined per sonnel

blank fragmentary. We believe however that there are at

lea ..... perhaps least ..... 125,000 people in the militia."

Q. When you're talking about the militia, or Bobby

Layton is talking about the militia, that is self-defense

militia and secret self-defense militia; is that correct?

MR. BOIES: Obj ection.

SO UTHERN DISTR ICT REPORTERS. U.S. COUR THOVSE

FOLEY SQUARE , NEW YORK . N .Y. - 791 · 1020

Ad ams - cross 7086

1 THE COURT: You may ask him his understanding.

2 Q. Mr. Adams, is it your understanding that the

3 125,000 figure contained in the CIA draft dated June 14,

4 1967 for militia consisted of self defense militia and

5 secret self-defense militia?

6 A. It may well, but I don't know for certain.

7 THE COURT: May I suggest that you -- I believe

8 I'm correct tha t this document is in e v idence, is it not?

9 MR. DORSEN: That is correc t .

10 THE COURT: May I suggest that you hold up in

11 front of the jury these two pages just to show them what

12 these pages look like so that they will understa nd why the

13 reading is so broken up.

14 MR. DORSEN: Yes, yo ur Honor.

15 (Pause)

16 Q. Mr. Adams, I believe you testified at some point

17 tha t the -- that MACV was not present at the June 2 3 , 1967

18 initial session of the SNIE; is that correct?

19 A. I don't recall whether I testified, but I do n 't

20 think they had anybody there, no.

21 Q. And the ~ilitary position was presented by the

22 Defense Intelligence Agency; is that correct?

23 A. There is a -- I attended that meeting of NIE

24 14.3, and I made a memorandum of conversation, a memorandum

25 concerning parts of what went on in that meeting, and I

SO UTHE RN DISTRICT REPORTERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE

FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y. _ 791-1020

Adams - cross 70 87

1 would like -- in order to determine whether -- who was

2 there, I would 1 i ke to be able to see my memo of

3 conversation.

4 MR. DORSEN: Your Honor, may I the record

5 reflect that I am providing the witness with a copy of

6 exhibit 421.

7 Q. Mr. Adams, will you look at exhibit 421. Is

8 that the memorandum that you prepared at or about June 23

9 of a meeting that took place on June 23 ?

10 A. That is correct.

11 MR. DORSEN: Your Honor, we would offer exhibit

12 421 in e v idence.

13 MR. BOIES: No objection, your Honor.

14 THE COURT: 421 rece i ved •

15 (Exhibit 421 for identification was receiv e d in

16 ev idence)

17 MR. DORSEN: Yo ur Honor, I would like to ask the

18 court's permission to have the witness read into the record

19 certain paragraphs at this time, namely, paragraphs 1, 2, 3 ,

20 6, 7 and 8 of the memorandum which he drafted.

21 For the record, the paragraphs we are skipping

22 at this time relates to administrave services, your Honor.

23 Q.

24 6, 7 and 8.

25 A.

If you could read, Mr. Adams, paragraphs 1, 2, 3,

I would like to take time out to read 4 and 5 ,

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Adams - cross 7088

if you please.

(Pause)

A. This is a draft memorandum for the record --

MR. BOIES: Excuse me, your Honor. Did Mr.

Dorsen say that the portions that he was omitting had to do

with administrave services?

MR. OORSEN: I believe I said that.

Q. 1, 2, 3 , 6, 7 and 8.

A. All right. This is a draft memorandum for the

record whose title is "Subject: NIE 14.3-67, the USIB

representatives meeting of 23 June 1967." USIB, I believe,

stands for United States Intelligence Board.

Up in the upper right-hand corner it indicates

that I was the drafter of this memorandum.

"1. General Collins, who was the Chairman of

meeting, announced at the outset that since the 'numbers

game' was the guts of the NIE, it should be disposed of

before proceeding to the estimate itself. He decided,

therefore, to attempt to get the representatives to agree

on strength, lose, and tonnage figures. Mr. Robert Layton

of the ONE staff had prepared charts (attached) for the

various representatives to put their estimates in. General

Collins then asked the various representatives to state

their cases.

"2. The battle was joined immediately. Mr.

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Adams - cross 7089

George Fowler of OIA read out the official OIA/MACV figures

stating that he saw no reason to accept any others."

Q. Could I stop you, Mr. Adams. Is what you're

saying there is that the Defense Intelligence Agency did

not want to increase the official estimates of the MACV

order of battle, that they were satisfied with the lower

estimates?

A. I don't know what I mean. Let me figure this

out. It says "Mr. George Fowler, OIA, read out the

official OIA/MACV figures, stating that he saw no reason to

accept any others." It sa ys wha tit sa ys •

Q. Please continue.

A. "Mr. La yton, on the other hand, read out the

estimates of VC strength based on figures contained in the

CIA memo entitled 'the Vietman situation: An analysis and

estimate' of 23 May 1967.

"3. A comparison of the OIA and CIA figures for

mid-1967 follows:"

Q. with respect to irregulars, Hr. Adams, am I

correct that -- I am skipping the NVA troops and VC main

and local forces, tha t the OIA est ima te was a hund red to

120,000, indicated "not broken down" and that the CIA

position is 60 to 120,000 guerrillas and 125,000 militia;

is that a correct reading?

A. It seems like one. I would notice here that the

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Adams - cross 7090

militia has a double asterisks next to it, indicating the

125,000 was a minimum figure.

Q. 11m I correct that the term "irregulars" Has a

single asterisks next to it?

A. "CIA did not add the two types of irregulars

because guerrillas and militia are so dissimilar.

Guerrillas are combatants, militia largely noncombatant."

Q. You wrote on June 23, 1967 that the "CIA did not

add the two types of irregulars because guerrillas and

militia are so dissimilar. Guerrillas are combatants,

militia noncombatants"?

THE COURT: You left out a word.

MR. DORSEN: Excuse me.

Q. "Militia largely noncombatant"?

A. I ce r tainly wrote this down. I don't know

whether it's expressing my views or whether I was

expressing the views of the CIA representatives --

so-called CIA position.

Q. It was at least one of those two and maybe both;

is that correct, Mr. Adams? If you can't answer that, Mr.

Adams --

A. That is correct. I would point out, however,

when I said -- I can see that in context here when I said,

"Guerrillas are combatants and militia largely noncombatant,"

I was talking about the fact that militia largely did not

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE

FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK . N .Y. - 791 .1020

Adams - cross 7091

1 mix in the fire fights. As I knew at the time, they laid

2 mines and booby traps, and in this sense, they were not

3 engaging in combat in the sense of being in a shootem-up;

4 however, they were doing actions which harmed Amer ican

5 troops.

6 As I said repeatedly, one-third of our

7 casualties came from mines and booby traps, which were the

8 principal weapons of the self-defense militia, yes.

9 Q. That is your interpretations of what you may

10 ha ve mean t by thi s footnote, but am I correct tha t you do

11 not k now what the CIA may have meant by that, if it was the

12 CIA's position as well?

13 A. I probably would have, because I knew Bobby

14 Layton knew what I knew, and he would have been thin ki ng i n

15 the same terms, probably.

16 Q. Why don't you please continue and read

17 pa r ag r a ph s 6, 7 and 8.

18 MR. BOIES: Is he to read paragraph 3?

19 MR. DORSEN: Thank you, Mr. Boies.

20 Q. Administrative services, does that indicates

21 tha t the the CIA had 75,000 to 100,000 and the OIl'. h ad

22 23,000, Mr. Adams?

23 A. Yes. It seems that's correct. I believe the

24 23,00 0 was based on the MACV order of battle figure . I'm

25 not sure, but I think so.

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Adams - cross 7092

Q. For political it indicated for the CIA 80,000

minimun and for the OIA 40,000?

A. That appears to be correct, yes.

Q. The totals are 456 to 541,000 for the CIA and

279 to 299,000 for the OIA?

A. That appears to be correct.

Q. And 279 to 299 is all categories in the OB; is

that correct?

A. 279 to 299,000 is correct. And I might add that

when I reviewed this in my notes, I particularly noted this

299,000 figure, which I later came to believe was the

ceil ing imposed by MACV

THE COURT: Mr. Adams, please restrict yourself

to answering the questions that are put to you .

THE WITNESS: All right, sir.

Q. Could you please continue with paragraphs 6, 7

and 8, Mr. Ad ams.

A. "6. Mr. Fowler stated that the OIA intended to

insist that the number of irregular ..... I presume

irregulars, ..... to be listed in the estimate should be

consistent with the MACV order of battle. Messrs. Adams

and Layton brought his attention to three high level VC

documents, all of which indicated that the number of

guerrillas was in the neighborhood of 180,000. Mr. Fowler

said that the documents were probably merely recording a

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE

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Adams - cross 7093

1 propaganda speech. Mr •••• " I think it is Layton,

2 " ••• observed, however, tha t one of the documents conta ined

3 a breakdown of guerrillas by region. It did not appear to

4 be a piece of propaganda. The undersigned observed that

5 the question of the number of irregulars had been brought

6 up last August and that the MACV OB is still the same now

7 as it was then."

8 Q. Mr. Adams, do you recall how old the documents

9 were that were referred to in that paragraph?

10 A. The documents referred to in that paragraph

11 there were three Vietcong documents which came into the

12 possession of American intelligence, captured doclmlents,

13 came into possession of American intelligence in, I believe,

14 early 1967, and they referred to sometime in 1966.

15 All three documents indicated that the number of

16 Vietcong guerrillas, according to documents, the Vietcong

17 documents was 180,000, which we, of course, noted since the

18 number listed in the OB for guerrillas at that time was in

19 the neighborhood of 35,000.

20 Q. Mr. Adams, is it correct that two of those

21 documents were notebooks, designated notebooks A and B?

22 A. Designated by whom, sir?

23 Q. By everyone in the intelligence community who

24 saw them, Mr. Adams, including MAC V and the CIA?

2S THE COURT: Are you asking whether once thos e

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Adams - cross 7094

documents had been captured the United States intelligence

people designated them notebook A and notebook B, or are

you asking whether the documents in their original form,

before they were captured, carried designations A and B?

Q. Do you know whether ir, o!i ther of those cases,

Mr. Adams?

A. U.S. intelligence did not refer to them as

notebook A and notebook B, U.S. intelligence, in general.

Q. Hr. Adams, I have here what purports to be --

which is a document called notebook A --

THE COURT: What is the exhibit number, please?

HR. DORSEN: 577 .

THE COURT: If it is not in evidence please

don't read from it.

MR. DORSEN: I'm sorry, your Honor.

A. I can't make heads or tails of this. It's black.

THE COURT: The re is no question.

Q. The question I would li ke to ask you, Mr. Adams,

is that one of the two documents to which Bobby Layton was

referring?

A. I have absolutely no idea, sir, because this is,

you know, it's almost black. I can't read it.

Q. Hr. Adams, I'd like to show you a retyped copy

of a cable which has been marked exhibit 703 A.

A. Yes.

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Adams - cross 7095

1 Q. will you please look at exhibit 703 A and I ask

2 you whether you have ever seen any version of that document

3 before?

4 A. Yes, I have.

5 Q. Do you recall whether -- does that refresh your

6 recollection as to whether Bobby Layton was referr ing to

7 notebooks A and note -- notebooks A and B at the June 23,

8 1967 session of the NIE?

9 A. Yes. Bobby Layton here --

10 Q. Could you answer the question whether it

11 refreshes your recollection, Mr. Adams. Was Bobby Layton

12 referring to notebooks A and B?

13 A. Bobby Layton wa s refer ring to three notebooks,

14 a nd no tebook A and no tebook Bare two no teboo ks • There is

15 also a third document he's talking about, which is

16 extraord inar ily important.

17 THE COURT: Please li~it yourself to answering

18 the question that is put to you.

19 THE WITNESS: Okay.

20 Q. Am I correct that Mr. Fowler stated that two o f

21 those three documents were propaganda speeches?

22 A. Mr. Fowler said that the doc uments were probabl y

23 merely recording a propa ganda speech. In that, Mr. Fowler

24 was in error because one of the three documents

2S TH E COURT: Just a second, pl e ase .

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Adams - cross 7096

1 have said before, and recently, that I ask you to listen to

2 the question that is put to you and simply answer that

3 question.

4 THE WITNESS: My problem, your Honor, is that --

5 THE COURT: The question was simply whether Mr.

6 Fowler said something about these documents that Mr. Dorsen

7 included in his question.

8 He was not asking you what your view was of the

9 documen ts, he was asking you what Mr. Fowler said.

10 THE WITNESS: I quite understand, sir.

11 THE COURT: Your answer to that question.

12 THE WITNESS: Mr. Fowler said the documents, the

13 documents referring to the three documents, were probably

14 merel y record ing a propag anda speech, and then it goes on

15 to say

16 Q. Mr. Layton sa id that perhaps one of them was not ?

17 A. It didn't say perhaps. It observed that one of

18 the documents contained a breakdown of guerrillas by region

19 and did not appear to be a piece of propaganda.

20 Q. Did not appear to be a piece of propaganda or

21 was not a piece of propaganda?

22 A. I am very familiar with the document -- it says,

23 "Did not appear to be a piece of propaganda" is what it

24 says.

25 Q. You disagree with Mr. Layton?

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Adams - cross 7097

1 A. I know very well --

2 THE COURT: Susta ined as to form. Your

3 quest ions are go i ng back and forth between what was sa id,

4 wha t Mr. Layton bel ieved, wh ich wa s not be a proper

5 question, and what this memorandum says in summarizing the

6 events, and please try to be more precise in your

7 questioning.

8 Q. Exhibit 703 A, does that also state anything

9 concerning the possibility that the notebooks are

10 fabr ications?

11 MR. BOIES: Objection, your Honor.

12 THE COURT: The question is whether this

13 document, 421, discusses --

14 MR. DORSEN: 703 A, your Honor.

15 THE COURT: 703 A, whether it discusses the

16 issue of whether those documents might be fabrications?

17 MR. DORSEN: That's the question, your Honor.

18 THE COURT: Overruled.

19 Q. 703 is a copy of a CIA cable, is it not, Mr.

20 Adams?

21 THE COURT: I'm sorry, 703 A is not in evidence.

22 I will sustain the objection.

23 Q. Do you recall any discussions, Mr. Adams, as to

24 whether notebooks A and B might be considered fabr ications,

25 or might be fabrications?

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Adams - cross 7098

1 A. I do distinctly, sir, because looking at this

2 document again I can see that I drafted it, and these two

3 documents -- two documents had shown up, both of them

4 indicating that the VC had 180,000 guerrillas, and it

5 naturally occurred to me that they might be fabrications,

6 and I was asking the MACV headquarters to give me an

7 opinion as to whether they were fabrications.

8 Later there was an answer saying they were not.

9 Their considered opinion was that they were not.

10 Q. You were not sure by looking at them whether

11 they were fabrications or not?

12 A. What I got -- I d idn' t get the documents

13 themselves. We didn't get captured Vietcong doclnents in

14 Vietmanese. What we got was a translation -- translation

15 reports, and naturally, every translation report we got was

16 in question, because you didn't know whether the thing was

17 genuine or not, and these documents were so important, I

18 thought, that I thought it was worth my while to do to ask

19 the Combined Document Exploitation Center that's the

20 place in Saigon that put these things out whether in

21 fact these documents appeared to be fabrications. That's

22 the discussion as reflected here.

23 Q. Wasn't there also a problem, Mr. Adams,

24 concerning the accuracy of the translation of these

25 documents?

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Adams - cross 7099

1 A. There was in fact -- there could have been a

2 potential problem in the -- concerning the translations of

3 the document, and, in fact, I made such a query to -- since

4 these documents were so important, I asked the Combined

5 Document Exploitation Center in Saigon, the MACV place that

6 translated these things, to look again at the documents to

7 see if they got it right.

8 Q. Isn't it the case that with respect to one of

9 the documents they couldn't locate the original document?

10 I'm not sure that's mentioned in that document,

11 Mr. Adams, but do you recall that there was a problem that

12 the or ig inal document could not be located, as to one of

13 those documents?

14 A. I couldn't tell you. I know there was an a n swer.

15 If I could see the answer maybe I could shed light on this.

16 I remember these were documents that were so important that

17 I thought it wa s important, first, to see whether they we r e

18 fabrications, and, second, to see if they were correctly

19 translated. There was a matter it was a matter of great

20 importance to me.

21 Q. The re was som e ambiguity, wasn't there, Mr.

22 Adams?

23 A. On the face of the translations themselves, yeah,

24 because all you get is this English translation of a

2S captured -- of what purports to be a captured Vietcong

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Adams - cross 7100

1 document, and I wanted to make sure, in this instance, that

2 these things were right; I mean, that, A, that they were --

3 whether or not they seemed to be genuine; and, B, whether

4 they translated properly.

5 So I remember I sent thi s query to the CIA

6 station, asking the CIA station to ta ke them, to take this

7 cable here, in essence, to the Combined Document

8 Exploitation Center to see whether these things were

9 fabrications or whether -- could be fabrications or whether

10 they were properly translated.

11 Q. And that was a problem, wasn't it, getting good

12 translations?

13 A. There was also a problem getting good

14 translations, sir. That's why I checked these.

15 THE COURT: Will you explain, please, what you

16 mean in this context by "fabrication"?

17 THE WITNESS: Okay. From time to time, the

18 Vietcong fabricated a document; in other words, made one up.

19 Typically, what they tried to do, for example,

20 if they wanted to attack point B, a little town over here,

21 at 3 o'clock in the morning, they might see that a document

22 came into our hands saying they were going to attack point

23 C over here at 4 0' clock in the morning, and they would

24 fabricate this document so that we would pay attention to

25 this area over here instead of the one they were actually

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Adams - cross 7101

1 go i ng to at tac k •

2 So from time to time they did fabricate

3 documents, and it was my concern here that for one reason

4 or another they might have fabr icated these documen ts.

5 Since they were such terribly important

6 documents, indicating had a the MACV -- indicating that the

7 MACV estimate of guerrillas was wrong by 500 percent, 600

8 percent, I wanted to check to see whether these things were

9 fabrications, could have been fabrications.

10 (Continued on next page)

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