working group gt 1- 8 (cip / saami) - cip-bobp.org gt 1-8 may meetings 17.pdf6.5-284 norma –...
TRANSCRIPT
CIP/ SAAMI MEETINGS 2016/2017
Ø June 2016 (USA), attended by Mr. R. Mabbitt & Mr. S. Perry.
Ø JANUARY 2017 (USA), attended by Mr. R. Mabbitt
Ø MARCH 2017 (IWA, Germany) attended by members of the working group GT 1-8.
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The seventh meeting of the working group GT 1-8, chaired by Mr. Hancox was held on Friday the 3rd of March 2017. Attended by (10) CIP members and (8) SAAMI members. The following agenda items were discussed.
March 2017 IWA Meeting.
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Agenda Topics
Ø Presentation and questions Mauro Silvis Director of ANPAM- European proposed amendments to the Firearms Protocol.
Mr. M. Silvis delivered a PowerPoint presentation relating to the recent proposed amendments to firearms protocols in Europe, the main point being.
“All essential components of a firearm should be marked with a clear, permanent and unique marking and registered in the data-filing systems of the Member States in accordance with Directive”.
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� SAAMI/CIP new/ revised calibers
CIP
o 40-65 Win
o 45-110 Sharps
o 45-120 Sharps 3 1/4
o 50-70 Government
o 50-90 Sharps
SAMMI
o 6.5-284 Norma – Status of Nosler supplied V&P Test Barrels
o 280 Ackley Improved, SAAMI accepted January 2008
o 30 AR Rem, SAAMI accepted June 2009
o 20 Nosler, SAAMI accepted January 2017
o 22 Nosler, SAAMI accepted January 2017
o 24 Nosler, new cartridge/chamber introduction January 2017, review period open until June 2017.
o 6.5-300 Weatherby Magnum, SAAMI accepted June 2016 5
� 6.5-284 Norma – Status of Nosler supplied V&P Test Barrels
Mr. S. Perry gave an overview in relation to the 6.5-284 Norma project.
Nosler USA has approached CIP in order to ascertain the correct P-max produced for their ammunition under the CIP system of measurement. To obtain good results the tests will be conducted in a similar manner to that of SAAMI reference ammunition system e.g. there will be three independent CIP laboratories conducting the testing, each having the same barrels and ammunition from the same Lot.
The project will hopefully prove a good adjunct to the CIP “Best Ever” ring tests, where barrels produced by hammer forging will be used, as the barrels for the 6.5-284 Norma testing will be from a single producer, but still using a traditional reamer.
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� CIP/ SAAMI Head Space
Mr. R. Hancox informed the meeting participants that he had taken over the Chairmanship of the CIP Headspace Working Group with the sole aim of CIP bringing their maximum headspace tolerances into line with SAAMI’s target headspaces.
Citing the work CIP had previously conducted in relation to this matter, which had concluded that incrementing headspace from the CIP tolerances to SAAMI had no adverse effects.
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Here you can actually see SAAMI manufacturers target production headspace, which even for rimless calibres (the highest tolerance) would only effectively be 0.178 mm after firing. Rounded up, this figure is only 0.08mm above that currently accepted by the CIP. 8
CIP & SAAMI Steel Shot (and other non-lead) Regulations
� The data you are about to see represents the performance in velocity and momentum terms, of
the current shot shell products of Remington and Federal, supplied By SAAMI prior to the March 2016 CIP SAAMI meeting in Nuremberg. We were informed that this data supports Winchester’s then current products too.
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� The velocity column and the momentum column indicates in red those products which exceed the current CIP High Performance regulations for non-lead shot.
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� This includes 12-76 as well as 12-89 chamber length ammunition and other gauges.
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� This ammunition is safely used in the US and other non-CIP member countries in US made and other makes of shotguns and would be safe to use in similar guns in CIP member states.
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� The GT1-8 Committee wish to reconvene the non-lead working group for the purpose of revising the CIP regulations accordingly and decisions general which they believe to be over complicated.
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Ø CIP & SAAMI Steel Shot (and other non-lead) Regulations
Ø The current CIP regulation for 12 x 76 Maximum Velocity = 430 m/s (1411 fps) maximum momentum = 15.0 Ns
Ø The current CIP regulation for 12 x 89 Maximum Velocity is 430 m/s (1411 fps) maximum momentum = 19.0 Ns
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� Draft template/ protocol for sharing new cartridge introductions.
Mr. R. Bimson presented to CIP a copy of the SAAMI “Draft Template” which SAAMI use for new cartridge introductions. This matter had previously been discussed between Mr. A. Chabotier and Mr. R. Bimson as possible way forward for a conjoined CIP/SAAMI approach to sharing data when introducing new calibres in the future.
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� Bullet set back and bullet-pull force relative to cartridges used in tubular magazine rifles
SAAMI raised concerns over CIP produced ammunition that could be used in arms with tubular magazines e.g. the .44 magnum round, is often used for level action rifles as well as revolvers. SAAMI manufacturers who are familiar with this practise crimp the bullet into the case, so as to stop bullet set back when loaded into a tubular magazine.
Previous testing in the USA has revealed that in some instances the pressures produced from ammunition that has been subjected to bullet set back can be as much or even exceed Proof pressures.
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Ø Comparison with CIP P-max & SAAMI MPLM
Certain SAAMI calibres, have a higher MPLM than the CIP P-max, and are therefore likely to be manufactured with pressures very close to the CIP limit. This coupled with CIP Proof Houses pressure measurement variation could mean that whilst such ammunition would pass at one CIP Proof House it may fail at another. Mr. Hancox requested from SAAMI a list of calibres for which the SAAMI MPLM was higher than the CIP P-max so as to allow the CIP Proof House concerned with ammunition approval to concentrate on these calibres in particular.
The attached tables for rifle ammunition were prepared by Alan Serven of Remington. They can be accessed from the BOPB as they are attached to the meeting notes of the 2017 CIP/ SAAMI meeting in March.
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Centerfire Rifle Only Sorted by P(max) as a percentage of MPLM
(UPDATED 27-FEB-2017)
INACTIVE CARTRIDGE
ADDED 02-27-2017 SAAMI - - - - CIP Specs - - - -
Type Caliber P(max) as % of MPLM
MPLM Piezo, psi
P(max) (psi)
Pk (psi) Method Loc (in)
Pmax (bars)
Pk (bars)
Xducer Loc mm
CFR 405 WIN 75.3% 472 355 409 Drilled 0.98 2450 2818 25.00
CFR 221 REM FIREBALL 75.5% 615 464 534 Drilled 0.69 3200 3680 17.50
CFR 257 ROBERTS +P 86.5% 595 515 592 Drilled 0.98 3550 4083 25.00
CFR 22 HORNET 86.7% 502 435 500 Drilled 0.69 3000 3450 17.50
CFR 22-250 REM 88.2% 666 587 676 Drilled 0.98 4050 4658 25.00
CFR 416 RIGBY 88.4% 533 471 542 Drilled 0.98 3250 3738 25.00
CFR 35 WHELEN 91.2% 636 580 667 Drilled 0.98 4000 4600 25.00
CFR 338 LAPUA MAG 91.5% 666 609 701 Drilled 0.98 4200 4830 25.00
CFR 257 ROBERTS 92.9% 554 515 592 Drilled 0.98 3550 4083 25.00
CFR 470 NITRO EXP 93.2% 420 392 450 Drilled 0.98 2700 3105 25.00
CFR 270 WIN 93.6% 666 624 717 Drilled 0.98 4300 4945 25.00
CFR 338 RUGER CMPCT MAG 93.6% 666 624 722 Drilled 0.98 4300 4975 25.00
CFR 416 REM MAG 93.6% 666 624 717 Drilled 0.98 4300 4945 25.00
CFR 6MM REM 93.6% 666 624 717 Drilled 0.98 4300 4945 25.00
CFR 308 WIN 94.6% 636 602 692 Drilled 0.98 4150 4773 25.00
CFR 264 WIN MAG 95.1% 656 624 717 Drilled 0.98 4300 4945 25.00
CFR 300 WIN MAG 95.1% 656 624 717 Drilled 0.98 4300 4945 25.00
CFR 338 WIN MAG 95.1% 656 624 717 Drilled 0.98 4300 4945 25.00
CFR 300 AAC BLACKOUT 95.1% 564 537 617 Drilled 0.69 3700 4255 17.50
CFR 17 REM 95.4% 646 616 709 Drilled 0.98 4250 4888 25.00
CFR 280 REM 95.5% 615 587 676 Drilled 0.98 4050 4658 25.00
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CFR 30-06 SPRG 95.5% 615 587 676 Drilled 0.98 4050 4658 25.00
CFR 300 REM SA UM 95.8% 666 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 300 RUGER CMPCT MAG 95.8% 666 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 300 WBY MAG 95.8% 666 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 338 REM UM 95.8% 666 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 375 REM UM 95.8% 666 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 7MM REM SA UM 95.8% 666 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 7MM REM UM 95.8% 666 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 7MM WBY MAG 95.8% 666 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 9.3x62 95.9% 590 566 650 Drilled 0.98 3900 4485 25.00
CFR 7MM-08 REM 96.3% 625 602 692 Drilled 0.98 4150 4773 25.00
CFR 223 WSSM 96.9% 666 645 742 Drilled 0.98 4450 5118 25.00
CFR 243 WSSM 96.9% 666 645 742 Drilled 0.98 4450 5118 25.00
CFR 25 WSSM 96.9% 666 645 742 Drilled 0.98 4450 5118 25.00
CFR 270 WSM 96.9% 666 645 742 Drilled 0.98 4450 5118 25.00
CFR 300 WSM 96.9% 666 645 742 Drilled 0.98 4450 5118 25.00
CFR 325 WSM 96.9% 666 645 742 Drilled 0.98 4450 5118 25.00
CFR 7MM WSM 96.9% 666 645 742 Drilled 0.98 4450 5118 25.00
CFR 30 THOM CTR 96.9% 636 616 709 Drilled 0.98 4250 4888 25.00
CFR 458 LOTT 97.3% 641 624 717 Drilled 0.98 4300 4945 25.00
CFR 375 RUGER 97.5% 636 620 713 Drilled 0.98 4275 4916 25.00
CFR 300 REM UM 97.6% 666 650 747 Drilled 0.98 4480 5152 25.00
CFR 224 WBY MAG 97.6% 654 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 17 REM FIREBALL 97.7% 564 551 634 Drilled 0.69 3800 4370 17.50
CFR 243 WIN 97.9% 615 602 692 Drilled 0.98 4150 4773 25.00
CFR 260 REM 97.9% 615 602 692 Drilled 0.98 4150 4773 25.00
CFR 370 SAKO MAG (9.3x66 Sako) 97.9% 615 602 692 Drilled 0.98 4150 4773 25.00
CFR 220 SWIFT 98.1% 636 624 717 Drilled 0.98 4300 4945 25.00
CFR 375 H&H MAG 98.1% 636 624 717 Drilled 0.98 4300 4945 25.00
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CFR 376 STEYR 98.1% 636 624 717 Drilled 0.98 4300 4945 25.00
CFR 416 RUGER 98.1% 636 624 717 Drilled 0.98 4300 4945 25.00
CFR 308 MARLIN EXPRESS 98.3% 487 479 550 Drilled 0.98 3300 3795 25.00
CFR 338 MARLIN EXPRESS 98.3% 472 464 534 Drilled 0.98 3200 3680 25.00
CFR 300 PEGASUS 99.1% 656 650 747 Drilled 0.98 4480 5152 25.00
CFR 450 BUSHMASTER 99.1% 395 392 450 Drilled 0.98 2700 3105 25.00
CFR 6.5 CREEDMOOR 99.2% 636 631 726 Drilled 0.98 4350 5003 25.00
CFR 257 WBY MAG 99.6% 641 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 270 WBY MAG 99.6% 641 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 340 WBY MAG 99.6% 641 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 204 RUGER 99.6% 590 587 676 Drilled 0.98 4050 4658 25.00
CFR 7MM REM MAG 99.8% 625 624 717 Drilled 0.98 4300 4945 25.00
CFR 6.5-284 NORMA 99.9% 595 595 684 Drilled 0.98 4100 4715 25.00
CFR 7MM STW 100.2% 666 667 767 Drilled 0.98 4600 5290 25.00
CFR 8MM REM MAG 100.2% 666 667 767 Drilled 0.98 4600 5290 25.00
CFR 25-06 REM 101.0% 646 653 751 Drilled 0.98 4500 5175 25.00
CFR 458 WIN MAG 101.4% 615 624 717 Drilled 0.98 4300 4945 25.00
CFR 32 WIN SPL 102.6% 431 442 509 Drilled 0.98 3050 3508 25.00
CFR 500 NITRO EXPRESS 3" 102.8% 395 406 467 Drilled 0.98 2800 3220 25.00
CFR 222 REM MAG 104.1% 564 587 676 Drilled 0.98 4050 4658 25.00
CFR 6.8MM REM SPC 104.1% 564 587 676 Drilled 0.98 4050 4658 25.00
CFR 17 HORNET 104.6% 513 537 617 Drilled 0.69 3700 4255 17.50
CFR 222 REM 104.6% 513 537 617 Drilled 0.98 3700 4255 25.00
CFR 300 H&H MAG 104.8% 595 624 717 Drilled 0.98 4300 4945 25.00
CFR 303 BRITISH 105.2% 503 529 609 Drilled 0.98 3650 4198 25.00
CFR 6.5 x 55MM SWED 105.4% 523 551 634 Drilled 0.98 3800 4370 25.00
CFR 7X64 BRENNEKE 106.7% 564 602 692 Drilled 0.98 4150 4773 25.00
CFR 7-30 WATERS 107.0% 461 493 567 Drilled 0.98 3400 3910 25.00
CFR 30-30 WIN 107.7% 431 464 534 Drilled 0.98 3200 3680 25.00
CFR 7MM MAUSER 108.2% 523 566 650 Drilled 0.98 3900 4485 25.00
CFR 300 SAVAGE 109.8% 482 529 609 Drilled 0.98 3650 4198 25.00
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CFR 44 REM MAG 110.1% 369 406 464 Drilled 0.69 2800 3200 17.50
CFR 6.5 GRENDEL 110.2% 533 587 676 Drilled 0.98 4050 4658 25.00
CFR 223 REM 110.6% 564 624 717 Drilled 0.98 4300 4945 25.00
CFR 284 WIN 111.2% 574 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 45-70 GOVT 111.2% 287 319 367 Drilled 0.98 2200 2530 25.00
CFR 7.62 X 39MM 111.7% 461 515 592 Drilled 0.98 3550 4083 25.00
CFR 30 CARBINE 113.2% 410 464 534 Drilled 0.69 3200 3680 17.50
CFR 35 REM 116.3% 343 399 459 Drilled 0.98 2750 3163 25.00
CFR 444 MARLIN 119.5% 431 515 592 Drilled 0.98 3550 4083 25.00
CFR 44-40 WIN 141.2% 113 160 183 Drilled 0.69 1100 1265 17.50
CFR 8MM MAUSER 153.5% 359 551 634 Drilled 0.98 3800 4370 25.00
CFR 38-40 WIN N/E 167 192 Drilled 0.69 1150 1323 17.50
CFR 32-20 WIN N/E 305 350 Drilled 0.69 2100 2415 17.50
CFR 32-40 WIN N/E 341 392 Drilled 0.98 2350 2703 25.00
CFR 38-55 WIN N/E 348 400 Drilled 0.98 2400 2760 25.00
CFR 25-20 WIN N/E 392 450 Drilled 0.69 2700 3105 17.50
CFR 25-35 WIN N/E 442 509 Drilled 0.98 3050 3508 25.00
CFR 218 BEE N/E 464 534 Drilled 0.69 3200 3680 17.50
CFR 348 WIN N/E 464 534 Drilled 0.98 3200 3680 25.00
CFR 30-40 KRAG N/E 471 542 Drilled 0.98 3250 3738 25.00
CFR 250 SAVAGE N/E 529 609 Drilled 0.98 3650 4198 25.00
CFR 225 WIN N/E 566 650 Drilled 0.98 3900 4485 25.00
CFR 358 WIN N/E 587 676 Drilled 0.98 4050 4658 25.00
CFR 307 WIN N/E 602 692 Drilled 0.98 4150 4773 25.00
CFR 356 WIN N/E 602 692 Drilled 0.98 4150 4773 25.00
CFR 350 REM MAG N/E 624 717 Drilled 0.98 4300 4945 25.00
CFR 6.5MM REM MAG N/E 631 726 Drilled 0.98 4350 5003 25.00
CFR 240 WBY MAG N/E 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 30-378 WBY MAG N/E 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 338-378 WBY MAG N/E 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 375 WIN N/E 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 378 WBY MAG N/E 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 416 WBY MAG N/E 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
CFR 460 WBY MAG N/E 638 734 Drilled 0.98 4400 5060 25.00
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