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silphPSSilverMemberJr.Member

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whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?on:October31,2011,08:15:30AM

(thispostisedittedtorephrasemyquestion,becausenowtwothreepeoplemisunderstoodit!i'llgetitrighteventually..!)

idon'tknowifthisisa"stupid,unpractical'question,buti'vealwayswonderedaboutit.

whatarethereasons(whichi'mguessingareallonlyhistoricalreasons?)thatmajorscalewithnosharpsandnoflatsbeginswith'C',insteadof'A'?

themajorscalewithnosharpsandnoflatsstartsonanotethatwecallC.whyisthisnotecalledC,insteadofitbeingcalledA?

supposeiwassomeprehistoricguyplayingaroundwithastringedinstrument.supposethatimagicallydiscoverasystemoftwelvepitches(roughlycorrespondingtoourequaltempered12tones)thatdeliverpleasingtones,andthatilikethissystemsomuchthationlyeverusethissystem.ìthendiscoverthatapatternofnotesinaTTSTTTSpatternsoundssuperpleasing,andicallsuchasequenceofnotesa"majorscale".ìsoonwillthenrealizethattherearetwelvesuchmajorscalespossibleusingmysystemoftwelvepitches.ìalsorealizethatit'sagoodideaifideem/one/ofthesetwelvemajorscalesasthemost"basic"scale,andthatinameallnotesnotpartofthisone"basic"scaleas"flatsandsharps".thisisagoodidea,becauseiseethatalltheothermajorscalesarecreatedbyusingflatsandsharps,andnowihaveauniquewayofidentifyingalltwelvescales,andalsowouldhavefoundawayofreferringtoalltwelveofmypossiblenotes.thissoundslikeagooddealtome!`sonowallthat'slefttodoisassignnamestoeachnoteofmy"basic"scale.idecidetousethelettersofthealphabet.

obviously,iwouldchoosetonamethenotesmymost"basic"scalestartingontheletter'A'.



now,mylittlehypotheticalfantasyaboveiscloseenough(i'massuming)tohowthingsactuallycameabout.atanyrate,iamassumingthatifiaskwhatthemost"basic",and"simple",and"mostfundamentalstartingpoint"forascaleistous,itwouldbethemajorscalewithnoflatsandsharpsinit.tous,itistheCmajorscale.

myquestion:whyareweusinganamingsystemthatnamesthemostbasicscalestartingwiththeletter'C'?!itseemsarbitrarythatthenameofthefirstnoteofthemostbasicscaleweuseis/C/,insteadofA.whyC?

Doyoufindthispostuseful?Yes/NoLogged

pianoplayjlPSSilverMemberSr.Member

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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#1on:October31,2011,08:39:29AM

Goodquestion.Idon'tknowbutI'lltrytoanswer.Becauseeverymajorscalefollowsthesamepatternietheintervalseperatingthenotesinascaleapplystoeverymajorscale.ForexampleinCmajorscaletheintervalseparatingCfromDwouldbeatone,right?andsoonuntilwereachEtoF.heretheintervalisasemitone.FromFtoBitwouldbeatonethatseparateseachnote.FromBbacktotonicCwouldagainbeasemitone.HencethispatternislikeTTSTTTS(TisfortonewhileSisforsemitone).Sothat'swhyCmajordoesnothaveasharporflat.ThispatternappliestoeveryMajorscale.IknowIhaven'texplaineditveryclearandproperly,butIhopethishelps.


Avigilanteisjustamanlostinthescrambleforhisowngratification.


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no,no,thatwasn'twhatiwasasking,actually!iwasn'tasking"why,ifyoustartonthenoteonthepianocalled'C',andmakeamajorscalestartingonthatnote,doyougetascalethathitsonlythewhitenotes".

myquestioninsteadwas,"whyisthenotethatwecall'C'onthepiano,actuallynotcalled'A'instead?".ortoputitdifferently,whenyou'relearningtoread,youstartwiththeletterAbutwhenyou'relearningmusicyou(verystrangely)don'tstartwithA,butinsteadstartwiththeletterC.



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Ohsorry.maybethatCisoneof3notesthathave7octavesand8notesandthemiddleofthepianohappenstobewhereCishenceeveryonelearnswheremiddleCis.Isthisananswertoyourquestion?




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no,i'mafraidthatisn'taddressingmyactualquestion!imaybeexplainingitnotwellenough,andyouareinteprettingwhati'mwritinginameaningthati/didn't/realizei'msaying,lol!

idon'tmean*literally*"whydopeoplelearnmiddleConthepianoastheirfirstnote".

letmetryaskingmyquestionmoreprecisely:iconsidertheCmajorscaletobethemost"simple"and"basic"scale.certainly,that'showit'sconsideredtobeinoursociety,wheneveranyonelearnsanythingaboutmusictheory:`westartwiththeCmajorscaleasourfirstmajorscalewelearn.itisconsideredthemostsimpleofthemajorscalesallothermajorscaleshaveasharporaflatinit.`welearnminorscalesonlyafterlearningmajorscales.welearnthataminorscalestartsonthe6thdegreeofamajorscaleorwelearnthataminorscaleisamajorscalewiththe3rd,6th,and7thflattened.

therefore,theCmajorscaleisthemost"simple"and"basic"scalethatwelearn.

so,itdoesn'tmakesensethatthis"basic"scalestartsonC.whyC?itseemscompletelyarbitrarytome!theonlynonarbitraryletternameforthemostbasicscaletostartseemstobe'A'.

so,myquestionis:itseemstomakemoresensethatthenotewecall'C'onthepiano,wouldinsteadbecalled'A'.whyisn'tit?whyisitactuallycalled'C',insteadofanythingelse?

hopefullymyquestionisclear,now..!





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OhnowIgetitbutIdon'tknow.Igiveup.whydon'tyouhaveagoatyourquestion?



michael_langloisPSSilverMemberSr.Member

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Quotefrom:silphonOctober31,2011,08:15:30AM

idon'tknowifthisisa"stupid,unpractical'question,buti'vealwayswonderedaboutit.

whatarethereasons(whichi'mguessingareallonlyhistoricalreasons?)thatthemajorscalewithnosharpsandnoflatsbeginswith'C',insteadof'A'?

AreyouaskingwhyCDEFGABisconsideredmajor,whileABCDEFGisnot?Itmighthelptoclarifyyourquestion.

Mike



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mygoodness,imustreallysuckataskingquestions,lol!

no,that'snotwhati'masking.iknowwhyCDEFGABCisamajorscaleandwhyABCDEFGAisaminorscale.

i'minsteadaskingwhythenotewecallCisinfactcalledC.itwouldmakemoresensetomethat,givenit'sthestartingnoteofthemostbasicscale(iethestartingnoteofthemostbasicscalebeingthestartingpointoflearninganymusictheory),thatitshouldbecalledthesameletterasthestartingnoteofthealphabet:A.itseemscompletelyarbitrarythattheletternamesofthepitchesarewhattheyare,andiwanttoknowwhyCwaschosentobethenameofthepitchthatwecallC.

ireallyhopemyquestionisclearnow!


allthumbspianoPSSilverMemberJr.Member

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Ithinkheisaskingwhythenotesonthepianoweregiventherespecificnames,likewhyisCthenotebeforethe2blackkeysinsteadofA?WhyinhistorydidtheynottunethepianoinawaytomakeAthenotebeforethetwoblackkeysandgoupfromthere.IfyoudrawoutthepianoandlabelthekeysandtrytoformscalesbasedonAbeingbeforethe2blackkeysIthinkyoumightendupwithnaturalnotesontheblackkeyswhichwouldbestrange.Idon'tknowIdidn'ttryitbutIthinkFwouldenduponablackkey.Iguessitwasthemostorganizedwaytodoit.



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@allthumbspiano:

lolthanksforassuringmethatyouunderstandmyquestion!

well,ifweadopttherulethatEtoFisasemitone(ienonoteinbetween)andthatBtoCisasemitone,thenyes,Fwouldenduponablackkey.butofcourseifwe'renamingthenotebeforethetwoblackkeysasbeing'A',thenwewouldn'thavethatrule!instead,therulewouldbethatCandDwouldbeasemitoneapart,andGandAwouldbeasemitoneapart.thatis,thekeyboardwouldlooklikethis:

A[A#/Bb]B[B#/Cb]CD[D#/Eb]E[E#/Fb]F[F#/Gb]GA



Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#10on:October31,2011,01:58:46PM



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HereisareasonIcanthinkofbutismostlikelywrong.TheCmajorscalehasnosharpsorflats,thisscalewascreatedbeforethepiano.Whentheycreatedthepiano(orwhateversimilarinstrumentbefore)theywantedallthesharpsandflatstobeontheblackkeys.SincetherearenosharpsorflatsinCMitbecametheonewithnoblackkeys.Thescalethatyoushowdoeshavesharpsandflatsontheblackkeysbutitlookslikethe3rdintheAmajorscalewhichshouldbeaC#isinsteadonawhitekeyofD.



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ohdear,maybeyou/don't/understandmyquestion,afterall,allthumbspiano!letmebringuptwothingsyoujustwrotetoshowwhy:

Quote

TheCmajorscalehasnosharpsorflats,thisscalewascreatedbeforethepiano.

that'sfinebyme,thethoughtthatthescalewithnosharpsorflatstobecreatedbeforethepiano(orinmywords,i'mokaywiththethoughtthattherewasascaledeemedso"basic"thattheonlyideaofsharpsandflatscameaboutbyaskingwhatnoteswere/not/inthismost"basic"scale,andthatthis"basic"scalewascreatedbeforethepiano).butthewhole/point/ofmyquestionis:

supposei'mamusicianguyinventingcoolstuffliketheideaofascale,andi'msomeonewholivedwaybeforetheageofthepiano.nowsupposeicreatedamajorscalethatideemtobethemost"basic"and"simple"scale,andiwantedtousethelettersofthealphabettorefertothedifferentnotesofthescale.then,iwoulddefinitelynamethenoteslikethis:ABCDEFGA

thereisnoreasoniknowofwhyi'ddecidetobegintonameitstartingwithC!andsoidon'tunderstandWHYthemost"basic"scalewasevernamedstartingwiththeletterC!

Quote

The[keyboard]thatyoushowdoeshavesharpsandflatsontheblackkeysbutitlookslikethe3rdintheAmajorscalewhichshouldbeaC#isinsteadonawhitekeyofD.

but,again,thewhole/point/ofmyquestionisthatifyoutakethemost"basic"and"simple"majorscale,andwanttoassignnotestoit,thentheAmajor(yes,major!)scalewouldbe:ABCDEFGA,andthere*wouldnotbeanotethateverexistedcalledC#*.

you'resayingthatthe3rdintheAmajorscaleshouldbeaC#,butit'sonlyaC#in/our/namingsystem(ietheonethatstartsonC).inthenamingsystemusedbythekeyboardiposted:

A[A#/Bb]B[B#/Cb]CD[D#/Eb]E[E#/Fb]F[F#/Gb]GA

,thethirdoftheAmajorscaleindeedisC.(countitusingTTSTTTS!'A'isthefirstdegreeatoneupfromthatisB,whichisourseconddegreeandatoneupfromthatisC)

i'mfeelingalittleuneasy,becauseitseemsthatiamhavingalotoftroubleexplainingwhatmyquestionIS.you'rethethirdpersoninarowwhoi'veseemedtohavecausedtomisunderstandmyquestion,anditmakesmedoubtmycapabilitiesofcommunication...!

doyouseewhati'mtryingtoask,now,allthumbspiano?ordidinotquiteclarifyenough?



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Sorry,Ithoughtyouwereaskinginreferencetothepianoandnottothescalesthemselves.I'mnotsurehoworwhatlanguagetheyoriginallycreatedthescalesinthoughsoIcan'treallyanswerthat.ButIamcuriousaboutitthough.



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I'mthinkingitevolvedfromwhenscaleshadacompletelydifferentorganization.Iknowtheyusedtohavescaleswithlessnotesinthemandmaybeatthattime'A'wasthemostbasic.Asitevolvedandtheydividedthescalesfurtherthatiswhenthesharpsandflatsgotadded,'C'endingupwithnone.HereisaninterestingreadbutIdon'tthinktheexactanswerisinthere.

http://www.midicode.com/tunings/greek.shtml

LikeIsaid,Ithinktheyalreadyhadan'A'scaleofsomekind(notasweknowittoday)soitwasstuckbeingcalled'A'eventhoughwhentheydivideditupintomorenotesitendedupnotbeingthemost



basiclikethe'C'.Notsureifthisisright,justatheory.


mcdiddy1PSSilverMemberSr.Member

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FromwhatIwastold,musicalnotationoriginatedfromamonknamedGuidod'ArrizowhotaughthisstudentstosingsolemnizationsymbolsbasedonahymnaboutSaintJohnBaptistcalledUtqueantlaxis.

EachofthelinesbeganwithasymbolsuchasMi,So,Lawhichiswheresolfegeoriginatedfrom.Solfegeisbasicallysyllablesthatrepresentthemusicalmajorscale.

FromthataftertheymethodbecamemorepopularintheRenaissanceandbegantogrowmoreorganizedandsystemizedusinghexachords.Hedevelopedmuemonicdevicecalledthe"Guidonianhand"wherethesolfegesymbolswheregivingletternames.

Singersweretrainedforawhiletousethesebasicsixnotescales,avoidingthetritonebecauseitwasconsideredthedevil'schord.FromthereGuidodeveloped3typeofhexachordscales,onebeingcalledthenaturalstartingonCwiththehalfstepbetweenEandFetc.JeanPhilippeRameauwrotehisTreatiesonHarmonywhichwasusedbyFriedrichWilhelmMarpurgtodescribethemusicofBach.Fromtheredevelopedthesetwoindividualdescribedthisgrowingtrendoftonalization,dominants,resolutionsandessentiallyaremajor/minortonalsystemwhichwasbasedoncenteringofatonicnoteorkeynotewhichiswherewegetourkeysignaturesfrom.AftertheRenaissancetotheBaroqueperiodtheuseofstaffbegantobeusedtomakereadingeasierandclefswereintroducetogivelinesmeaningtodifferentpeople.Clefsbasedonthecommonregistersofsingersandinstrumentshence,Bass,tenor,sopranoclefsetc.TheclefsbegantobeusedtoindicatethekeyortonalitiesofpieceandbegantospreadasacommonwaytonotatemusicIamgivingthecliffnotesversion,itisreallyadeepcomplexmusicologyquestions.Butifyouwanttoknowthefullstorylookup:guidonianhand,musicaficta,Utqueantlaxis,.IguesstheevenshorteranswerisbecauseofGuido,solfege,andhissystemoftrainingsingers.


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Likemostthingsinmusic,thedevelopmentwasgradualandisstillongoing,andwentinlurchesasothereventshappenedinhistory.WesternmusicstartsoutfromtheearlyChristianchurchwhichborrowedbothfromtheGreeks,whohadfiguredoutsomeharmonythings,andtheJews,fromwhomtheygottheideaofchants.TheGreekintervals,speakinggenerally,ledtowardthese"modes".Thechantsweresacredandwerenotsupposedtobechanged,andwentalongthemodestoo.Itwasalloral,andittookforeverfortheboystomemorizeonechantaftertheotherbycopyingthemastersingers.Thosechantswerealongthose"modes".Thiswentonforhundredsofyears.AfterthecollapseoftheRomanEmpirethedifferenttownswerelikeislands.

ThencametheestablishmentoftheHolyRomanEmpire,whichtriedtounitallChristendom,andtodosotheritualsandsoforthhadtobeunified.Howdoyoucommunicatethingsifyouhavepoorroads,noradio,telephoneorInternet,andeverythingisoral?Writingistheanswer,sothewayofwritingwasimproved,andwaysofwrittenmusicwerealsobeingsoughtbytheexistingpowers.Charlemagnewasgivenamandatebythepope,ifIremembercorrectly.

Meanwhilemonksandscholarswerealreadytryingwaystomaketeachingstudents(tomemorize)thesechantseasier.Youcouldmakealittlesquigglearoundamainnotetoshowhowthenotesdancearounditoverheregoinghigherandlowersotheneumesdancingaroundasinglelinegotinvented.Itwaslikeaquickmemoforthingsthatwerememorized.

D'Arezzi'srevolutionwastolookatthestructure(thatwasalreadyinuse)underneaththatmusicandheisolatedthenoteswiththeirrelatedintervalsofa"scale".HegavethemthenamesDoReMietc.fromthatchantweallknowabout.TherewerespotsonhishandwhichrepresentedtheDoReMietc.sohecouldpointtothe"note"andthesingerscouldsingit.Thewritingsystemcamefromthistoo.Hedidnotinventthemodesortheintervalstheyalreadyexistedinthemusic.

Uptothenpeoplehadtomemorizeentireportionsofchants.Theideathatyoucouldsinganote,anothernote,andanothernote,andcreateachantoutofthissuccessionofnotes,wasmindbogglingthatyoudidn'thavetohearsomeonesingitfirst.Theideaoflookingatasheetofpaper,singnoteafternote,andendupsingingachantyouhadneverheardbeforetotallyblewtheirminds.Wetakeitforgranted.SincethepoliticalagendawastounifytheEuropeanChristianworld,partlyviathereligiousrituals,therewasalotofsupportforspreadingthissystem.Thereforeitcouldtakeoff.Thetimewasripeforit.

Oncetherewasawayofwritingmusic,ideascouldalsogetalotmorecomplexanditdevelopedfromthere.Andisstilldeveloping.


keypegPSSilverMemberSr.Member

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Silph:WhatifitdidstartonAoriginally?HistoricallythetwomodesthatcontinuedweretheIonianwhichisourmodern"majorscale"andtheAeolian,whichisourmodern"naturalminor"scale.Somaybethenaturalminorwasthemorenormaloneonceuponatime.WecouldturnitonitsheadandconsiderthatasignatureofonesharpisthesignatureofEnaturalminor,andthatGmajoralsosharesitssignature. (Iwonderiftheminorwasinfactconsideredmorenaturalonceuponatime?)



Actually,howdidthealphabetnamescomeabout?WealwaysonlyhearaboutthehistoryofDoReMi.


MaylaPSGoldMemberSr.Member

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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#17on:November01,2011,04:05:13AM

.


"Thegreatestthinginthisworldisnotsomuchwhereweare,butinwhatdirectionwearemoving"~OliverWendellHolmes

birdbrainPSSilverMemberNewbie

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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#18on:December10,2011,06:58:17AM

MywifeisKorean.ShespeaksDoReMinotABC.Wehavefuntryingtolearnnewsongstogether.


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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#19on:December15,2011,10:53:35PM

thisisadifficultquestiontoanswerwithoutdelvingintohistorytoomuch..

IwouldsayaplausibleansweristhatwhoeverfirstdiscoveredoratleastworkedonintervalrelationshipsandusedletternamesasopposedtosolfeggionamedthefirstnoteA,andproceededtofindthenaturalminorscalebeforethemajorscale.

butthatstillseemsprettyunlikelytome..Iwouldassumeagreatnumberofpeopleworkedontheideaandthatitdevelopedovermanymanyyearsthiswouldhavetobethecasegiventhegreatnumberofhistoricaltuningmethods/temperments..butthenhey,itsnotasifthiswouldhavebeenworkedoutonapiano,morelikelythevoiceormaybeanearlyfretlessstringinstrumentofsomekind.Thekeypointaboutthatbeingthatthoseinstrumentscanaltertheirtuningassuchontheflywhiletheyareplaying...whichleadsmetobelievethatamoveabledosystemwouldhavecomelongbeforeABCdid.

Idon'tknowjackaboutthehistoryofthisthoughsojustignoremyramblings.



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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#20on:February06,2012,07:39:02AM

Anotherimpossibleexplanation:

Perhapsthisisalljustcoincidence.Idon'tknowmuchaboutthehistoryofthekeyboardandhowtheletteringofthenotescametobesothisisjustpurefuriousspeculation.PerhapsinancienttimesthemostnaturalscaleisnotCbutanothernotee.g.b.Maybeinthosetimesthenote'c'isactuallycalledbbecausemaybetheydidn'tinventnamesfornotes.

Justmytheoryofcourse.Atheory.Andatheoryisalwaysspeculationthatisnotproventrue.

JL



indespairPSSilverMemberJr.Member

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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#21on:February06,2012,07:02:07PM

FromwhatIunderstand,theobjectofthequestionisthenomenclatureofthenotes.Accordingtopresentconvention,middleC(C4)isanynotewithafundamentaltoneoffrequency261.6HzandA4isthatwith440Hz.Thequestionasitappearstomemaymeanoneoftwothings:

a)Whydowecallanotewithafundamentaltoneoffrequency261.6HzMiddleCorC4andnotA4?

or,b)Whydowetunethemiddlewhitekeyofapianobeforethetwoblackstosounda261.6Hztoneandnot440Hz?

Tosummarize,whatisthecumulativehistoryofthetonalsystemusedtodayinmostmusicandit'snomenclature?




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Quotefrom:indespaironFebruary06,2012,07:02:07PM





Ithinkitjustcomefromtradition.Thenotenamesarenotdeterminedbyfrequencynorismerelyarbitrary.Ithinkthehistoryofthenotenamewasalreadydiscussedinthepreviouspost.WhatIhaveheardistheinEuropemusicianstunetoadifferentAfromthatinAmerica.SoIdonotthinkthefrequenciesareuniversallyusedeverywherebutcomesfromthegeneralareafrequencythathasbeenpassedon.



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Quotefrom:indespaironFebruary06,2012,07:02:07PM





I'dsaytheOPistalkingaboutA).AtlastIthinkIunderstandtheOP'squestion....



j_menzPSSilverMemberSr.Member

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ThefirstpersontocallnotesbyletternameswasamonkandmusictheoristcalledBoethius.HismusicaldiscourseDeInstitutioneMusicawaswritteninthe6thcentury.

Atthattime,"A"wasthelowestnoteusedinmusic,oratleastchurchmusic.Thewholeofmusicwasdividedintovarious"modes",inheritedfromtheGreeks,andtheideaofthemodern"scale"didnotreallyexist(althoughthe(present)Ionianmodecorrespondstothemajorscale,modaltheoryalsounderwentsomerevisoninthetimesinceBoethius,andthecorrespondencewiththemodesdescribedbyhimcouldbecontested).

Aparrallellineofdevelopment(asdescribedbykeypeginanearlierpost)gaveusthesolfa(doremifasollatido)system,whichcorrespondstothemodernscale.Theputtingofthesetwolinesoftheoreticaldevelopmenttogetherresultedin"C"beingthebottomnoteoftheallnaturalsmajorscale.

Interestingly,themodernstandardpianostillhas"A"asit'slowestnote.


"Whattheworldneedsismoregeniuseswithhumility.Therearesofewofusleft"OscarLevant


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Quotefrom:j_menzonFebruary09,2012,02:53:52AM

Interestingly,themodernstandardpianostillhas"A"asit'slowestnote.

MaybethatisbecausetheletterAisthefirstletterofthemusicalphabet.





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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#26on:May31,2012,08:49:21AM

Idon'tunderstandwhyyourquestionisgettinganswersbasedonmusicaltheoryorhistorywhenitisbasedinetymology.Whatthequestionbeingaskedpeople,iswhy"c"asopposedtoanythingelse?Takentoridiculouslengths(toproveapoint),whynotdogorcat?


p2u_PSSilverMemberSr.Member

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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#27on:May31,2012,09:07:11AM

Quotefrom:boop4onMay31,2012,08:49:21AM


I'vemadethatuprightnow,butmaybeithastodowiththefactthatthenote"C"isclosesttothe"Center"ofthekeyboard?It'salsothe"Center"ofourtonesystembecausetherearenoaccidentalsinthescale,soit'stheeasiesttolearntheorywise.P.S.:Manycountriesdonotuse"CDE",butsay"DoReMi"instead.Thismaybepartoftheconfusionthatarosewhilesomepeopletriedtoreply.AlsokeepinmindthatmanyboardusersarenotnativespeakersofEnglish.

Paul


Accountdiscontinued.Nomorepearlsbeforeswine...

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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#28on:June01,2012,10:50:46PM

Quotefrom:boop4onMay31,2012,08:49:21AM


Didyoueverlearnthealphabet?Thelettersformanorderedlistthatpeopleinmanycountriesrecognize.Ifyouhavea6yearoldwhoistakingtheirfirstevermusiclessonyoudon'tneedtotellthemthatBcomesafterAbecausetheyalreadyknow*cough*unlesssomeyahoodecidesHshouldcomeafterAdestroyingthewholepointofthelabels*cough*.Itisjustthesameasifnumberswereusedaslabels.LogicallythereforAmustbethestartingpointofthesequence.Thatwasalreadydefinedbeforeitwasappliedtomusic.Sotheanswertothequestioncanonlybehistorical,insofarasthereisananswer.


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Interestingquestion.ActuallytwoinawayHowdidthelinesandspacesonthestaffgettheirlettername?Andwhynotmakethemostplainnotation,nosharpsorflats,A.And...howdidthenotesonakeyboardgettheirlettername?

Iwouldguessitevolved,justchance.I'llseeifIcanfindanything.NotationcameaboutfromtheCatholicchurchright?Toomanyhymnstokeeptrackofsotheystartedwritinginlittlemarks.Thenalinetodifferentiatethoselittlemarks.Thenanotherline.Neumes.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neume

AndIwonderifithassomethingtodowithclefs.

TheactualpitchestoA440waslowerinthepast.I'mnotsurewhatthenumbersare,butI'vehearditwassomethinglikeaminorthirdlowerthanwhatwehavetoday.Pitchkeepsrising.Iheardwe'reheadingtowardA442.

IalsoremembersomethingaboutourmoderngrandstaffcomingfromFrance....Darnit...Lostmypost.

Guidoputneumesonastaff.Howdidthatgettothemoderngrandstaff?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staff_(music)"Francesoonbegantoincorporatefivelinesintoitsmusic,whichbecamewidespreadbythe16thcentury,andwasthenormthroughoutEuropebythe17thcentury.Thenamesofthestaffinsomelanguages,suchastheItalianpentagramma,reflectstheimportanceoffivelines.In1342,thefirstmusicstaffwasmade.Itconsistedoffourlinesandthreespacesinsteadofthemodernfiveandfour.FivelinesstaffwasmadeinItalybyUgolinoofForl."

Lookslikehedidit.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugolino_of_Forl%C3%ACButweneedmoreinfo....


Timespentwithpianosisneverwasted.


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It'sbeingapaintomodifypostsnow....

OxfordMusicOnline(NewGroves)Underthisentry....UgolinoofOrvieto[UgolinodiFrancescoUrbevetanoUgolinusdeUrbeveteri](b?Orvieto,c1380dFerrara,2331Jan1452).Italiantheoristandcomposer.2.Theory."ItisclearthatUgolino,whilenotmentioningauthorsmorerecentthanJohannesdeMuris,hadstudiedtheworksofProsdocimusdeBeldemandis...""TheonlydifferenceisthatUgolinobeganoncratherthanGandsplitthesemitonesBCandEFintoequalhalves.Prosdocimus'sandUgolino'sdivisions,resultinginfiveflatsandfivesharps,weretohaveconsiderableinfluenceonlate15thcenturytheoristsinItaly.AsignificantsourceforthespeculativeportionsoftheDeclaratio,likewiseunnamedbyUgolino,hasbeenidentifiedastheanonymousQuestionesonmusic(FPnlat.7372),perhapswrittenbyapupilofBiagioPelacaniorsomeoneinhiscircle.Ugolino'streatise,thoughlessoriginalthanwasoncethought,wasneverthelessinfluential,especiallythefirsttwobooks."BonnieJ.Blackburn,author

Sohedidit,popularizedit.Whoknowswhyhepickeditthewayhedid.Iwouldguesshewasbuildingonotherideas,butwhyhedecidedtoswitchpitcheslikethat...Whoknows?




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Here'sabitaboutwhyit'saGandFclef..."(v)Clefs,staves,legerlines.TheFandCclefs,positionedsoastoavoidlegerlines,weresupplementedfromthe14thcenturywiththeGclefandabassGorgammaclef(fixingbassG),inordertoallowfurtherexplorationofthetrebleandbassregisterswithoutthenecessityforlegerlines."fromarticle,Notation,III,4:Mensuralnotationfrom1500authors,GeoffreyChew/RichardRastallOxfordMusicOnlineThatdoesn'tanswerwhyit'sCandnotAthough.Lookslikethat'sstillUgolino'sinfluence.



zzivauriPSGoldMemberNewbie

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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#32on:June02,2012,01:11:49AM

Becausecisthespeedoflight.


fleetfingersPSSilverMemberSr.Member

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Iattendedachildren'smusicclasstheotherday,andtheteachersaidthatthemostnaturalintervalforchildrentosingisaminorthird.Thatsurprisedme...Ithinkofmajorkeysandintervalsasbeingmorenatural,intermsofhowtheysoundandtheirpredictability.MostteachersIknowteachthemajorscalesfirst.Maybethatisnothowitalwayswas.Maybeminorscalesusedtobemorecommonandnatural.Thatwouldmakethemostsensetome,anditwouldanswerthequestionbeingaskedbecauseinthatcase,the"mostnatural"scalewouldbeAminor,notCMajor.





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Alsointeresting.

Theymightbetalkingthe"Ursong."Solsolmilasoooolmi.



cudoPSSilverMemberNewbie

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whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?

Later,inthemiddleages,Dorianmodewasdesignated"modeno.1",notforitsauralqualities,butforitsmathematicalsymmetry.Takeanynote,andcalculateperfect5thsaboveandbelowit,untilyouhavea7notescale.ThisgivesyouDorianmode:

Goingupwardinfifth:Dx3/2=AAx3/2=EEx3/2=GGoingdownwardinfifth:Dx2/3=GGx2/3=CCx2/3=F.

Puttingthemallinthesameoctave,keepingthestartingnoteatthecentre,sothatnonoteismorethana4thaway,youhave(bottomtotop)ABCDEFG:

(Yousometimesneedtoinverta5thtoa4thintheotherdirectiontoremaininthesameoctave.)

Nowimagineyouhavenonoteletterstostartwiththeyhaven'tbeeninventedyetsoyougiveletternamestoyour"perfect"scalestartingonthebottomnote:

ABCDEFG.212212

Bingothat'swherewegetournotenamesfrom.Theyweren'tgiventoAeolianmode,butto"hypodorian",whichisdorianstartinga4thbelowitstonalcentre.Andthereasonitstartsa4thbelowisthe"holy"symmetryofthediagram,theelegantsimplicityofthederivation.


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Quotefrom:nystulonJune01,2012,10:50:46PM

Didyoueverlearnthealphabet?Thelettersformanorderedlistthatpeopleinmanycountriesrecognize.Ifyouhavea6yearoldwhoistakingtheirfirstevermusiclessonyoudon'tneedtotellthemthatBcomesafterAbecausetheyalreadyknow*cough*unlesssomeyahoodecidesHshouldcomeafterAdestroyingthewholepointofthelabels*cough*.Itisjustthesameasifnumberswereusedaslabels.LogicallythereforAmustbethestartingpointofthesequence.Thatwasalreadydefinedbeforeitwasappliedtomusic.Sotheanswertothequestioncanonlybehistorical,insofarasthereisananswer.

Sothatiswhy"Themostbasicscale"startsonCandnotA...Explainthattoasixyearold.Orme.TheonlyintelligentanswertothequestionmustbethatAminororAaeolian,isthe"mostbasicscale".


gn622PSSilverMemberFullMember

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ITHINKtheynamedthekeyslikethatsincetheveryfirstkeyinthepianoisA,sotheotherkeyswerenamedaccordingly .



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Quotefrom:bojo1onOctober20,2012,01:36:14PM

TheonlyintelligentanswertothequestionmustbethatAminororAaeolian,isthe"mostbasicscale".

Theyweren'tgiventoAeolianmode,buttohypodorian.




asuhaydaPSSilverMemberSr.Member

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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#39on:November05,2012,08:35:21PM

IthinkyourmakinganinvalidassumptionbystatingthatCMajoristheonlynaturalscale.Itmostcertainlyisnot.WesternmusicwasnotoriginallyderivedonMajor/Minorconfigurations,ratheronmodes.Gregorianchantusedmodes,notMajor,Minorscales.

Theconceptoftempermentdidnotmakeitswayintowesternmusicuntilthelate1600'sandwasn'tfullyrealizeduntilthemid1700's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_temperament

Idon'tthinkthattheoriginalkeyboardsweretunedthewaytheyaretoday.So,Ihatetosayitbut,Cmajoriswhatitis.It'saproductoftheevolutionoftheinstrument.Ibelievethattheyweresimplynotthinkinginthosetermsbackaroundthetimethattheoriginalkeyboardswereinvented.ANDTHEYAIN'TCHANGIN'ITNOW!haha!

Ihopethismakessense.


~ifyouwanttoknowwhatI'mworkingon..justaskme!


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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#40on:November07,2012,12:20:41AM

Idon'tthinkthepitchmattersforwhathe'sasking.

Naturalbeingnosharpsorflats.

WhyuseamajorscalestartingonCforascalewithnosharpsorflats?WhynotAinstead?

Orbasicallywhyaretheletternamesassignedtothestaffandkeyboardthewaytheyare?

I'dgowiththeevolutionideatoothough.Tradition.Thereareotherthingsthatdon'tmakesensebutthey'restilldonebecausethat'showit'salwaysbeen.



sasuke_10PSSilverMemberJr.Member

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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#41on:November15,2012,07:43:39PM

Thetone"la"isnamedA,becauseA4(Aonfirstoctave)=440Hzexactly.


colourPSSilverMemberNewbie

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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#42on:January24,2014,01:03:02PM

http://www.theoreticallycorrect.com/MusicFiction/

JustthoughtI'dthrowthisintothemix!


timothy42bPSSilverMemberSr.Member

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Thankyouforpostingthatlink,itwasveryinteresting,andapplieddirectlytotheOPsquestion.

Atleasttwoofusunderstandhisquestion!


Tim


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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#44on:January25,2014,01:07:26AM

Didanyonewadethroughthatlink?Iglancedthroughitbutdidn'tseetheanswer.





cn75PSSilverMemberNewbie

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Hereistheansweryouhavebeenlookingfor:Informertimeswhenchurchmusicwasveryimportant,themostbasicscalewhichservedasthebasisfornamingthekeyswasn'ttheCmajorscale.ItwastheeolianscalewhichisidenticaltoourAminorscaleandthereyouhavethekeysABCDEFGintheorderofthealphabetstartingwithA.GreetingsfromGermany.


F.Chopin:NocturneOp.32No.1E.Satie:FantaisieValseC.Stephan:PrludiumF.Chopin:ValseOp.64No.2

kalirrenPSSilverMemberFullMember

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Relatedquestion:WhydoGermanscall"H"whatEnglishspeakerscall"B"?


Beethoven:AndieFerneGeliebteFranck:SonatainAMajorVieuxtemps:SonatainBbMajorforViolaProkofiev:SonataforFluteinDMajor

cn75PSSilverMemberNewbie

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Re:whydoesthemostnaturalscalestarton'C',insteadof'A'?Reply#47on:January27,2014,08:52:52AM

TheGermanscallflats"Bs"andsharps"crosses".Asaconsequence,"B"inGermanalwaysmeansBflat.Sowejusttookthenextletterofthealphabetthatwasn'tyetinuseandthatwas"H".


F.Chopin:NocturneOp.32No.1E.Satie:FantaisieValseC.Stephan:PrludiumF.Chopin:ValseOp.64No.2


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Quotefrom:cn75onJanuary25,2014,01:59:18PM

Hereistheansweryouhavebeenlookingfor:Informertimeswhenchurchmusicwasveryimportant,themostbasicscalewhichservedasthebasisfornamingthekeyswasn'ttheCmajorscale.ItwastheeolianscalewhichisidenticaltoourAminorscaleandthereyouhavethekeysABCDEFGintheorderofthealphabetstartingwithA.

Imustdissapointyou.Itcan'tberightwhatyouraretellingus.WhenthenamesABCDEFGwhereintroducedbyGuidoofArezzoin1025therewerenoIonianandnoAeolianscaleatall!AeolianandIonianwasintroducedbyGlareanin1547.BeforethatdatetherewereonlyDorian,Phrygian,LydianandMixolydianwithitsrespectivHYPOscales.

AgainthestoryIbelieveit'sthetrueone:

Inthemiddleages,Dorianmodewasdesignated"modeno.1",notforitsauralqualities,butforitsmathematicalsymmetry.Takeanynote,andcalculateperfect5thsaboveandbelowit,untilyouhavea7notescale.ThisgivesyouDorianmode:

Goingupwardinfifth:Dx3/2=AAx3/2=EEx3/2=GGoingdownwardinfifth:Dx2/3=GGx2/3=CCx2/3=F.

Puttingthemallinthesameoctave,keepingthestartingnoteatthecentre,sothatnonoteismorethana4thaway,youhave(bottomtotop)ABCDEFG:

(Yousometimesneedtoinverta5thtoa4thintheotherdirectiontoremaininthesameoctave.)

Nowimagineyouhavenonoteletterstostartwiththeyhaven'tbeeninventedyetsoyougiveletternamestoyour"perfect"scalestartingonthebottomnote:



ABCDEFG.212212

Bingothat'swherewegetournotenamesfrom.Theyweren'tgiventoAeolianmode,butto"hypodorian",whichisdorianstartinga4thbelowitstonalcentre.Andthereasonitstartsa4thbelowisthe"holy"symmetryofthediagram,theelegantsimplicityofthederivation.


dedolencePSSilverMemberNewbie

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^Interesting.Thatsupportsmyoriginalguess,whichwasthatthepianotooktheshapeitdidorganically,havingtoconformtotheorythatwasalreadyestablishedandsophisticated.WhileitwouldhavemadesensetocallCmajor"A,"itonlywouldmakesenseinthecontextofpiano,nottheoryasawhole.


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