war is only half the story: ten years of the … · the director of the documentary photography...

A conversation with Nina Berman, Christopher Capozziello, Jessica Hines, Andrew Lichtenstein, and Sara Terry

Moderator: Amy Yenkin

Recorded December 5, 2017

ANNOUNCER: You are listening to a recording of the Open Society Foundations, working to build vibrant and tolerant democracies worldwide. Visit us at OpenSocietyFoundations.org.

AMY YENKIN: I'm Amy Yenkin. And it's great to be back at the Open Society Foundations, where I had the privilege to be able to support the Aftermath Project for a decade when I was the director of the documentary photography project here. We're gonna-- just want to tell you a little bit about how the evening's gonna go. We're gonna watch a short video that gives you a sense of the breadth and the scale of the work-- that the Aftermath Project supported over 10 years.

And then-- I'm going to introduce a conversation with Sara Terry, the founder of the project, and the four photographers. And then we're gonna open it up to your questions. And in around 7:00, 7:15, we'll break 'cause there's a lot more food out there. And there are books to be purchased and signed and more conversation to be had. So let's begin with the-- the video.

(BREAK IN TAPE)

"WAR IS ONLY HALF THE STORY: TEN

YEARS OF THE AFTERMATH PROJECT"

TRANSCRIPT

2 TRANSCRIPT: WAR IS ONLY HALF THE STORY: TEN YEARS OF THE AFTERMATH PROJECT

AMY YENKIN: So tonight we're celebrating the-- 10th anniversary of the Aftermath Project and also the launch of a book that-- that-- recognizes the impact of that work and that features the many photographers who were supported over that decade. I'm just gonna introduce our panel. I'm not gonna give you their full bios 'cause you can read all that online. But I'm just-- I'm joined by-- grant winners and finalists Nina Berman, Andrew Lichtenstein, Chris Capozziello, and Jessica Hines, and founder Sara Terry, photographer and filmmaker.

So I'm gonna start with Sara actually. We met 12 years ago. About 12 years ago when you exhibited your work in Moving Walls. Moving Walls is the exhibit of the Open Society Foundations that you see outside. I encourage you-- just a side note. I encourage you if you haven't already to take a look at the current exhibition. The work that you had in Moving Walls-- looked at Bosnia after the war, after the reporters had left.

And that was the beginning of our journey. But it was also the catalyst for your creation of the Aftermath Project. And when the project started 10 years ago, and you approached me, and we discussed funding, I thought about the mission of the Aftermath Project and what I hope it would accomplish in the context of that media-- the media env-- vironment at the time you were starting it and-- and how that related to the coverage of kind of current conflicts. Not conflicts of long time past.

The project though, and if you saw from-- from-- the video and you'll hear actually tonight even more, it covered a much broader historical time period. And-- by supporting Aftermath stories of centuries past. So I'm just curious. Reflecting on your own work from your t-- work in Bosnia and the motivation you had to start the Aftermath Project, did you expect that the work you would be supporting would cover such a long historical frame? And in what way does the interplay of the past and the more current present enrich the conversation that you hope to spark by creating the Aftermath Project?

SARA TERRY: That’s a great question, Amy. I knew there was a reason you were the right moderator. Is this-- is this working? Can you-- is it--

AMY YENKIN: You have to push.


SARA TERRY: Push the button. There it is. High tech up here. Also watch me rub my stomach and pat my head at the same time 'cause I'm doing this very low tech, like, slide showing you some of my work from Bosnia. You know, I think I always had a sense that history was a part of Aftermath. You couldn't not be in the Balkans where, you know, the Battle of Kosovo Polje which is actually n-- what now, 600 years ago in some people's minds happened yesterday.

And-- I think as a repor-- when I was a reporter, which I was for many years before becoming a photographer-- I learned how-- and I was covering California. And I learned how the history of California actually shaped the state that California had become. It-- it-- it was developed in isolation from the American frontier. It was the first time the frontier happened in isolation. And I always thought that was amazing.

So I didn't have any idea though, you know-- what-- what photographers were gonna suggest, you know, or what they-- what kinds of aftermaths they were gonna be drawn to. It was always a surprise and always a delight to have the applications come in each year. To-- you know, to Danny Wilcox Frazier's Surviving Wounded Knee, which he could trace right up through, you know, sort of 150 years of history and-- and the impact of it.

And Andrew's work, American Memory, you know, which is, like, staggering and-- and revisiting sites of, you know, conflict. And-- and letting it be a comment on what we're seeing and not seeing. So-- I-- in-- in-- yes, I knew it would be big and historical. And-- it's always a surprise about what people-- you know, what-- what drove their stories. It-- it was a delight actually every year to come up with f-- five usually. A grant winner and four finalists or sometimes two grant winners and three finalists.

But to say, "This is-- this is how we see aftermath in the world today. These are-- this is what aftermath issues are." And they were from very sharp-- like, af-- like, Afghanistan had aftermaths. I remember somebody-- a photographer once wrote all pissed off kinda going, "Why did you give a grant about Afghanistan? Because, you know, that's-- that war is still going on."

And I was like, "Well, do you want to talk about the aftermath of the Soviet occupation, or the aftermath of the warlords tearing up Kabul after the Soviets were driven out, or the aftermath of-- to Louie Poulou's (PH) work recognizing the aftermath of the solider who's just been-- come off the battlefield?"

AMY YENKIN: Can you say a little bit more about the conversation that you were hoping to spark? It wasn't just-- in creating the project it wasn't just about funding photographers to do this kind of work. It was what collectively that would create and what kind of


conversation that would create.

SARA TERRY: So-- yes. Because this was born as an idea pretty much post 9/11-- and-- and in a time when all coverage-- and we were completely engulfed in conflict photography. And I remember wanting other photographers-- I-- I-- I wanted a conversation that-- I mean, it's our tag line. War is only half the story. That was the conversation I wanted to build.

That's why that video says, "One conversation." And-- because I-- so for me personally I think that war is-- is what defines our inhumanity-- even though there are individual acts of courage. I'm not disparaging those. But I think war is where we pretty much are our worst selves. And I actually think that aftermath is where-- at least there's the possibility of beginning to d-- to redefine what it means to be human.

And I think the stories that you hold up be-- are what we become. And if all we hold up are stories of conflict, or hatred, or-- I mean, just look at the news today, I think we become that. And so in-- in lifting up these aftermath stories, I-- I wanted to-- I wanted to remind people that-- once upon a time there was a Marshall Plan. You know, we had a war and we understood that you needed to help afterwards.

So it is all those things. So I feel like with 10 years of this at least there's this body of work by, like, these amazing photographers that-- that shows what it looks like. And-- and-- and so that was the conversation. And I-- and I feel-- I mean, I think other people are probably better-- better able to comment than I am because I'm biased about whether that conversation is emerging, whether-- you know, what impact it's having.

AMY YENKIN: Well, we'll definitely get to that. That's one of my later questions. But right now we'll turn to Andrew. And your work presents a series of landscapes that revisit important historical sites in American history, many long forgotten, that force us to confront ugly parts of our history and to consider what collectively all those stories tell.

You did extensive work and historical research that presented images and stories from-- markets where slaves were sold, the shores where slaves were brought into this country, sites of unspeakable violence towards native people, locations where workers died, but also sites of resistance, just to name only a few. I'm gonna quote something that you said. You said, "The first step towards healing is in acknowledgement. Without that it's impossible to move forward."

But right now sadly it feels that we're seeing the consequences of this in our own country. So your work comes at a very important moment. You've been working on this for a long time, but your book just comes out, it lands at this moment in our


time. We're in the midst of a battle today grappling with parts of our history that have been suppressed. It's playing out in part by the effort to preserve statues that memorialize individuals who-- committed horrors in the past.

And your work tells a different story than those statues. Yet it's not part of the dominant narrative. Your photographs are asking us to consider the act of public remembering versus the act of public forgetting. So I-- I'm curious how you see your work in the present context and how-- do you think it contributes to the de-- debate taking place today?

ANDREW LICHTENSTEIN: Well, that's a loaded question. I think l-- I think like a lot of photographers I'm just working on what's important to me. And the timing-- I don't want to call it irrelevant. Maybe it's just the timing that just happens. This-- I was thinking about these historical sites long before-- the debate over statues. And so when that became part of the conversation, it just-- it seemed like, "Okay, well, I've been talking about this for a while." And it's good that other people are talking about it, too.

I certainly think I'm-- I almost feel like-- in regards to the current state and this work I feel like it's more like the continuation project rather than the Aftermath Project. Because I'm not a war photographer. I don't go to war zones. And I give-- Sara so much credit for looking at this project and thinking that it would fit in. Because it's really not about war per se. It's about the-- internal hidden scars that all societies bear. But I'm looking at America.

And what we're win-- witnessing right now is these scars coming out into the foreground, into-- mainstream political debate. So I think that's just-- and I don't want to call it an accident. We certainly-- history is-- loaded baggage I would say. It's very heavy. And it's very hard to just discard it-- to say, "Well, we-- we never had slaves. It doesn't have any influence on our consciousness today," when I think every single person in this room knows that that's just not true. So I was just exploring ways to talk about that with a camera.

AMY YENKIN: And how have-- how-- what's been the response to your work if you can say? I mean, has there-- are people-- how are people engaging with it?

ANDREW LICHTENSTEIN: Well, I never really know that part-- honestly. I mean, I just do the work and put it out there. I don't know-- how people respond to it. I wish I could give you a good answer. Certainly I've had individual cases of people saying, "Oh, I'm so glad you


included that or you went there."

SARA TERRY: You-- you don't-- you can't underestimate the impact. So there's a lesson plan that goes with Andrew's work called American Memory. It was done by one of the senior-- lesson writers for Facing History and Ourselves. And it's-- so it's being used and moving through. And I-- just so you know, I mean, the number of times people s-- talk about your project, or the impact of it, or the thoughtfulness of it-- with a lot of the images in the Aftermath Project the captions matter.

We're not showing them to you tonight, but I'm just gonna take you through. Sorry to steal your-- you're-- you're being modest. This picture is all-- it's in museums. People have bought it. People show it and talk about it. And, Andrew, can you-- just say what-- if you read the caption-- and it's both in the Aftermath Project book that we did the year Andrew was the winner, but it's in his new book Remembrance, which was published by the University of West Virginia or Virginia?

ANDREW LICHTENSTEIN: West Virginia.

SARA TERRY: West Virginia. But can you tell-- just-- just talk about that one.

ANDREW LICHTENSTEIN: Well, this is-- these are women celebrating the inauguration of the last true leader of the Free Republican-- President Jefferson Davis. So they're in Montgomery waiting for-- it's the 150th anniversary of the inauguration of Jefferson Davis. So they're sitting on this bench waiting to participate in a rally.

And I stepped back, and I noticed downtown Montgomery is filled with civil rights monuments now. And the sign-- says, "This is where Rosa Parks boarded the bus." So I just f-- as a photographer, I mean, I'm kinda looking for layer-- historical layers upon historical layers.

AMY YENKIN: I'm gonna shift gears and turn to Jessica Hines now. Your work is deeply personal. It's a memoir that looks at the loss of your brother, a Vietnam vet who suffered from


PTSD and later committed suicide. You're recreating a narrative. As I understand looking at your work, you're recreating a narrative of his time both during and after the war. Trying to recreate that history and also examining your own story as a survivor.

Beyond the personal story, your work is deeply resonant for other veterans and their families, whether from Vietnam or from more current wars. Did you assume this to be the case when you embarked on this very personal project? And in what ways have you seen your work contribute to the longer, larger conversation around aftermath? And maybe when you're speaking, if there are certain images you want to stop on to talk a little bit about the image or the pr-- your process, that would be helpful.

JESSICA HINES: Sure. Well, no. I-- I-- I didn't expect-- I really didn't know what to expect when I started this. I-- I-- my project took me about 25 years to start because I was traumatized by the loss of my brother. And-- I'm still learning things about what happened. I just learned recently-- because I didn't go to the funeral. I couldn't. My mother I just learned also had not gone to the funeral. And so it was-- a very painful-- route to take.

And it-- and it evolved sort of serendipitously because-- a colleague was interested in the letters that-- he knew that I had. My brother had written from Vietnam. And-- so he wanted to share them with his class. It was a political science-- class about the history of the Vietnam War. And so of course I agreed. And-- and-- and having done that, I had to read the letters, too, right? And-- and so-- they had been on a shelf for-- for 25 years or so. And-- so I didn't even realize how much I had pushed all of that away.

I didn't-- I had-- I had a box. If you don't know the story, my mother put together a box of my brother's belongings. And-- so I had been carrying this around for, you know, more than, you know, two and a half decades and putting it on shelves and things. So I finally pulled it out and started to look through it. And I read all the letters. And when I did that, the letter stopped, and that was the end.

And suddenly, you know, I could hear his voice again. I was back in time. I was a child again. And then suddenly the voice stopped, and it was horrible again. And I thought, "Oh my gosh. You know, I-- I need to find something else." So I started to go through the box. And in the process I started to think that maybe I needed to photograph some of this. Because-- because I wanted to understand it. And this I the way I-- my mind works as a photographer, artist, is that by photographing things I pay attention and-- and I learn and express it that way.

And so-- but, no, I-- I didn't realize what might happen. It was just-- sort of a spontaneous thing that I had to do. And-- and I began it with black and white film. And-- and I thought I'd finish it rel-- relatively quickly. And it's turned into 11 years,


you know? So I-- I didn't realize that it would morph and-- and that so many changes would happen because the time passed. And I changed in that time.

And so-- my work evolved into chapters. But-- through-- throughout the years I think that-- people have-- have-- well, I've been able to engage in conversation with other people because-- partly because I sought it out. And I went to a reunion that was of my brother's company. And it was one of those serendipitous things, too, where-- it seems like in my life I would look something up and it's like, "Oh, that happened two years ago." Right? You know?

But I looked it up, and-- and it was coming in three weeks. And I thought, "Oh my gosh. Well, I have to go. I'm getting a ticket, and I'm flying up to D.C., and I'll go to the monument, and I'll meet these people." So I met a lot of the men who were in my brother's company. And they were so kind to me. They looked at the photographs that I had that I had had all my life basically. Since I was eight years old.

And I didn't know the meaning of what s-- anything really was. And also when I started the work, too, I scanned it. And-- and now that magic screen, you know, that we have these tiny little photographs, suddenly those images could be blown up on the computer screen. I could go into rooms and look and see what was in there. And it became a lot more real to me. So-- I-- I enjoy talking about it with people who have other missing relatives who have had this happen to them. I think it's-- it was healing for me. And I hope that other people when they look at it can feel a connection, that they're not alone.

AMY YENKIN: I just wondered if you wanted to add anything.

SARA TERRY: No, I-- so just in the context of the work of the Aftermath Project, I would add that Jessica's was one of the first bodies of work that wasn't strictly documentary or reportage. And we were always looking for broader expressions of these stories. And-- and-- in-- in particular this work spoke across so many and-- and then continues to resignate (SIC)-- res-- resonate as more losses have h-- have occurred for American families, as-- as they've lost loved ones through war or through suicide, you know?

So it's just-- and it's just a particularly-- if you have the time to go through looking at the chapters of Jessica's work and reading through those stories, I think they-- they're-- they're deeply personal and yet amazingly universal. So-- but it holds for me a special place in-- in our archives.


JESSICA HINES: I think the invisibility is-- is-- one-- one last thing I'd like to address, too. Is just because in starting the-- the project my great-- challenge was photographing something that doesn't exist anymore. And so I used photographs and re-photographed. And I went to Vietnam twice. I really wanted to learn more about what happened.

And-- and so this invisibility of-- of the fact that I had to take these different routes to make the pictures, it-- it also extends into the world because-- I think about now because of doing this work-- that when I'm in traffic and I see someone acting out or I see someone-- misbehaving in line somewhere, or somebody getting really upset, I think, "You know, that person very well could have just come off-- a boat from, you know, war." And they're in-- it's invisible. You cannot tell by looking at someone that they've suffered from post-traumatic stress or that they've been to a war. So it's invisible.

And they're all over. They're all amongst us. You walk down the street here. I bet you're passing so many veterans. Not just now but people from decades past. And those suicides, you know, from-- from the war. I went to-- the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall. And-- and, you know, it's such-- a small number when you think of all the suicides that actually took place later and are still happening just from that war alone. So it's this massive-- invisible current that runs through our-- our society that I wish people could pay more attention to and just be aware of.

SARA TERRY: Amy, I'll just toss you one other line about that, which is that virtually every Aftermath photographer is working out the problem of how do you photograph what isn't there. How do you show that? And every single one of these photographers-- I mean, if we'd had money every year to give grants to everybody, every single one would have had a grant because they've done it masterfully.

It is-- I say sometimes-- as-- of course conflict is dangerous. I have a huge respect for my colleagues who put their-- their-- selves on the line in conflict. But you know what the picture is. You know, you know, who's fighting, what's going on. You know the craziness and chaos of war. But to make a picture of aftermath, like, that's a whole other level of thought and visual, you know, skill. So-- every single one of 'em.

AMY YENKIN: Yeah. I mean, we're-- we're definitely seeing that in this panel tonight. 'Cause we've heard Andrew's work very much reflects that. And we're gonna get to get to Nina. And that's a part of that also. So-- but let's-- switch to Chris now. And you--


immersed yourself into the lives of KKK members-- on and off over a decade if I'm correct between 2002 and 2012 roughly. And I would say until the last year and certainly before the events of Charlottesville I might have looked at these images as kind of a frightening pic-- picture of a fringe part of this country, but that's not what I see now.

Now what the images reflect to me is-- is-- is terrifying about how this country has yet to deal with the legacy of slavery. And I'm wondering-- if you can talk about your experience working in that community but also reflect on how the events in Charlottesville and what we've seen over the last year-- does this change how you perceive your own body of work and what you saw at that time? And what role do you think your images play now?

CHRISTOPHER CAPOZZIELLO: Charlottesville was-- I was gonna be in Charlottesville, and I chose not to be there for-- personal reasons. And then it was-- that day was difficult because I had so many colleagues and friends-- that were down there. And I didn't know if they were okay. I-- I think that-- the Klan and other-- you know, white nationalist groups have a bigger voice today.

And that to me is-- also troubling in even sharing these pictures and in terms of giving these people a voice. However, I think that we learn a lot from stories and trying to understand how these people came to this place, why they believe what they believe. Narrative-- textual narrative is always very important to me because photographs are so silent, right?

These pictures are terrifying. And there's-- a photograph of a young guy pulling the hood over his head. And he's like, "Man, it's getting too tight. I'm getting big, man. Does it fit? How do I look, Chris in this one?" You know, and David (PH) looks like a little frightening to me, but, you know, he chuckled and I chuckled. And I was like, "I think it's fine, man." So-- humanizing people like this isn't, you know, something that-- I'm trying to do.

I'm trying to listen-- understand them better, and ask them questions that-- you know, because I want to understand. And, like, this guy David-- you know, through sitting down and having, you know, conversations with him, and-- and taping these, he-- he came to a point of saying, "I actually think the Klan has it wrong," and he ended up leaving. And he a couple months after our-- you know, our time together when I was-- working at a paper in Mississippi and happened upon-- I mean, I didn't really seek this out.

But-- you know, he sends me this email saying, "I-- you know, I thought about a l-- a lot about what you said, and I'm leaving." Which is really interesting because our job isn't th-- isn't to change them. It's to listen, and to report-- and hopefully to understand something a little more, to do our part in bringing more understanding.


And-- through that process, that-- those questions changed David. You know, racism now seems to have changed a bit.

The alt right, call it what you will, they have-- a different voice now. And, you know, what they will say about themselves is far different than what I think most of us in this room would feel about-- the Klan and what they stand for. How much of your question did I answer? (LAUGHTER)

AMY YENKIN: Is this-- is this work still out-- I mean, is it out there in circulation? People are-- how are-- are people res-- how are people responding to it?

CHRISTOPHER CAPOZZIELLO: So--

AMY YENKIN: And are you-- what-- are you-- are you trying to have it out there? Are you-- you worried? You know, you said that you-- you feel a little uncomfortable with it now. So--

CHRISTOPHER CAPOZZIELLO: Yeah. So, I mean, I've worked on and off for this since 2002. I photographed-- you know, I kinda go back. It's always been this thing that I go back to. And in the middle of photographing this I've worked on other-- other stories while I'm juggling that and assignment work. And so this has always been that thing that just kind of draws me back because I have these questions that can probably not be answered. "Why do you believe what you believe? And why do you do what you do?"

And that's-- you know, you need to be in therapy for that for a long time to get to the bottom of this. And-- David's mother was murdered by two black men who said that, you know, they did it because she was white in the wrong neighborhood. And those men went to prison. He never used that as a reason. He sort of, like, parroted what he'd heard about, you know, what the Bible says about racism and used, you know, Old Testament justification, which historically wasn't what, you know-- it meant.

I mean, I had studied perspectives on religion in college. And, you know, so I had understanding of what these things meant. And I-- then that allowed me to ask more questions of him. So-- number one, because I keep going back, I haven't published the work-- because I've had-- there have been experiences where-- there's a


photograph of-- the young boy with-- with the hanging doll. And sometimes I'm there with another photographer who's a friend of mine that's working on-- this story as well separately, but we'll go together.

It's a little bit safer. And he made a similar photograph of this. He's actually in the background. Like, get out of my frame, man. But he-- so he-- he comes over, makes a picture, gets it published, and publishes all this extraneous information about the boy. His name, his age. They had told us that they didn't want us to use that information. He put it out there. And the next time I went and saw-- that family and came back with a box of prints-- I said, "I had told you I'd do this. You know, and I came back to photograph as well."

And they pulled a gun on me, you know? And so because of that I haven't published this stuff because I come home, back to Connecticut, and I work on other things. And this is sort of like-- so long answer to your question, that I haven't published it yet. And, you know, so when I-- you know, as I continue, and secure more funding, and save my pennies from my assignment work, which is how I make my living, I'll go back and hopefully one day finish it.

But the problem for me was that David, he was like the central character in the very beginning. And then he's like, "Yeah, I changed my mind because of your questions." And I'm like, "You gotta give me a year, man. You-- like, change your mind a year from now." You know? So I've been looking for David again. But who knows what I'll find next, you know? So I kinda keep stubbornly going back.

SARA TERRY: I'll just-- so I'm-- I'm sort of enjoying going, "Oh wait. I'll say what this is in the context of the Aftermath Project." Chris's project was one of the first. It's before Andrew's historical project. I think year before Danny-- Wilcox Frazier's work in Pine Ridge. It was one of the first that came through as-- as an applicant to really grapple with the legacy of-- of slavery-- in the United States.

This is, like-- part of the conversation of aftermath is, "Here is what happens when you don't acknowledge the past." That's part of Andrew's project as well. But it's like-- it comes back. And when we were planning the panel for this year, I was like, "Whoa, hello. It's come back even--" you know, Chris's work even more so in this year. So it's-- and this image-- we-- we published-- in one of the-- the book that Chris was a finalist that year, we published a selection of I think maybe 12 or so images.

But this image is in our archives. It's in the-- it's in the 10th anniversary book. I think it's just, like, one of the most important ones we've ever, you know, been part of recognizing. And-- it-- it-- and you need to read the words with it because Chris is telling these kind of-- letting people speak in their own words about who they are or just describing the setting he was in.

So it's-- it's-- it's-- I don't know. There's a quality of depth to it and an-- and an


understanding, you know, or a context. It's not in any way forgiving. You know-- a picture like this is hardly forgiving. But it-- it-- to me this also is like, "Here is what it looks like." You know? Just imagine-- 19th century, you know, slavery. And here is what it looks like when we keep saying it didn't happen.

CHRISTOPHER CAPOZZIELLO: Yeah. And-- I think that-- the response-- as I've sh-- you know, shared it a little bit over the years is people are frightened. "I can't believe this is still happening." And that always kinda boggles my mind. How can-- of course these things are still happening. Of course people have terrible ideas of other people. Scapegoating is fun, right? If I can blame all my problems on those damn editors, right? If I can play-- if I can-- you know, the Hutus in Rwanda told stories about the Tutsis, you know?

Nazi Germany told stories about the Jews. In this country now there are certain people that tell nasty stories about gay people and about Muslims. And these stories, you know, they're not-- these are life stories. They're not bedtime stories. It's very dangerous. And when I spend time with them and I hear these stories, what's often very strange is that they're doing things that my family does.

They're sitting down eating hot dogs and hamburgers. And there's little kids running around playing. And so a lotta times there's this idea that it's fr-- extremely frightening all the time. And I'm hardly frightened. I mean-- this story about the guy pulling the gun on me, that was frightening, you know? But-- I mean, in that picture, you know, there's-- here's-- they're-- they're praying. I mean, if-- you know, for those of us who have walked through-- you know-- a church where people fervently pray, they're praying in very much the same way that I've always heard people pray.

You know, the next picture of the woman, you know, reading her Bible, she's n-- she's at this thing called the Klan National Congress. And I asked her if she's a member or-- and she says, "No, no, no. I live down the street. And I'm always very interested to hear what they have to say," which is interesting as well. And she said-- then she explains the gospel. She-- "You know Jesus?" she asks me. And she explains it all in a way that I've understood it to be and the way it's been told to me before.

And then she says, "But you know we're supposed to live separately than the blacks." So these-- you know, and it's-- all of these little sort of, like, vignettes, you know-- for me have brought understanding and-- and-- and compassion in some ways for David-- with what he went through and then later on made sense of it. And th-- and this guy-- this is-- you know, are they scary? Situations are.

But then David, who was once doing these stupid things, you know-- in my opinion, you know, he-- he-- he calls me when his son is born. He called me last year and said, like-- and there's, like, a twinge of racism still in this guy, right? He's like, "I'm really pissed off about this Black Lives Matter shit. Can you explain it to me?" And I'm like-- and he's like, "Don't all lives matter?" And I was like, "That's what they're saying,


man. That's what the movement is about."

And we had this very long conversation. And-- so he goes from someone that is-- you know, I'm photographing and trying to understand to someone who, like, literally calls me on Christmas, you know? And-- you know-- I was photographing him before I had a cell phone. And my mom didn't like that the Klan was calling the house. You know, like-- (LAUGHTER) so-- it's not-- the perception of, like, him being scary, he's laughing at me under the hood.

He-- I'm standing outside his trailer talking with him and David. And he runs away saying, you know, "You've never seen anything like this," 'cause I'm a Northerner. I grew up here. And then he comes running outside wearing his robe and hood thinking this is gonna be frightening. And, I mean, it wasn't. I was photogr-- I was with Klansmen. I kinda knew what I was gonna s-- you know, see. But the context is always different.

So then the text to share that-- is always-- that's something I've always enjoyed out of work of other photographers, is-- is having another layer of understanding instead of the quietness of this. And you read that text, and it gives you a little more insight.

AMY YENKIN: I find it frightening.

CHRISTOPHER CAPOZZIELLO: It-- I know it is. In many ways it is.

AMY YENKIN: So-- we're gonna now shift to Nina Berman. Your work is the last part of a long-term trilogy on the militarization of America today and the poisoning literally and figuratively of America by the military-industrial complex. Part one we showed in Moving Walls a long time ago. It was-- it gave voice-- you gave voice to untold stories of wounded Americans who are coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan. Part two, homeland, examined the militarization of life in the United States after 9/11.

And what we're gonna look at tonight looks at the toxic effect literally of U.S. military activity on American soil from unexploded weapons, to depleted uranium, radioactive particles. It's a legacy that dates from World War II to today that's poisoning our land. And here there-- as we've discussed there are parallels with Andrew's work in examining a history that's long been buried and suppressed.

And in your work you're asking viewers to confront the literal residue of American military activity. At the same time it feels you're issuing a call about the danger and


lasting impact of the present possibilities. I don't-- of-- of armed conflict that we face today whether in North Korea, in the Middle East, or elsewhere. That's worrisome to many people. And so I'm curious how you see your work both as a historical document as well as-- as a warning for the present and the future.

NINA BERMAN: Well, first I wanna really thank Sara Terry for giving me this opportunity to do this work because it was-- a whole new style of photography for me. I shot mainly four-by-five film, which I'd never shot before. So I needed to learn this process. I used an old camera from the 1950's. I struggled through this camera. I never could have even begun to have approached this subject if it wasn't for this grant because of the expense and the amount of very deep research.

So for me it was a kind of-- a history story. I call it acknowledgement of danger. And this-- refers to two things. 1) It refers to the lack of acknowledgement by the American government and in many ways the American military and the public to acknowledge the danger around them and the danger they've caused through military-- weapons production and testing and-- and to acknowledge the fact that we live in an economy which is-- a perpetual war economy.

And 2) acknowledgement of danger refers specifically to a form that you must sign if you go to a wildlife refuge in Indiana. This is something-- a weird little thing I discovered, which is rather than cleaning up-- unexploded ordinance, the military shifts the burden to Fish and Wildlife. And they turn it into a wildlife refuge. So this is-- a very paradoxical landscape.

Because on the one hand it's too contaminated for people to live on or for anyone to build on. So in that way it looks pristine. But on the other hand, when you enter it, it's actually poisonous and you could harm yourself. So you have to sign a form literally called n-- an acknowledgement of danger form to enter the space. And so these sort of-- you know, I'm trying to photograph things you can't really see. Toxic-- you can't see the poisoning in the ground. So how do you photograph it?

So for this, this is this wildlife refuge. They open it up to hunting a couple days out of the year. I found these-- hunters who hunted with old bow and arrows and just followed them through these woods that literally you can trip over unexploded ordinance. Then there's a whole section of Indiana, which is a closed zone. So you can't enter it, you can't build on it, you can't live on it, you can't develop it because of the depleted uranium.

So I took particular geographical locations connected to different wars and different forms of weapons production starting pretty much in New Mexico with the atomic bomb era and then going on to-- Whidbey Island in Washington State, which is the last one, which is the current-- I don't know if we have a picture of that.

(OVERTALK)


NINA BERMAN: Yeah. So I-- I-- yeah, so Whidbey Island. You might have seen recently-- this crazy story where Navy fighter pilots drew a penis in the sky. Anyone see that story? That's Whidbey. So these are-- these are growler aircraft that-- well, you-- you have to put ear-- earmuffs on when you walk in the neighborhood when they're flying because the sound is so unbelievable. And-- the Navy says that this is the sound of freedom and that this-- that this damage to the community on Whidbey Island is necessary because this is the only way that we can kill the terrorists.

So I start kinda with the atomic era. And then I end up in Whidbey Island. So it goes from the ground to the air. And in between I hit-- the Balkan wars. I hit the Vietnam War. And so for me it was just this s-- s-- kind of a monumental research project. And I realized about six months into the research that I could spend my entire life just photographing locations inside the United States.

There is very little research on this. There is almost no documentary photography or photojournalism work on it because it's very quiet pictures. And there's nothing, like, terribly sexy or, you know, immediately provocative. But for me it was, you know, as Amy said-- a kind of-- the third part of my-- this trilogy of my lifelong kind of-- conversation with the Department of Defense.

And so-- (LAUGHTER) yeah, so, like, right-- so-- so-- right here in this picture-- I'm in the closed zone. And you can't tell, but this bridge was created between the closed zone and the open zone. And the bridge was created so that vehicles could move in to-- collect the ordinance. But it-- it's quiet weird.

It's almost like the Chernobyl experience sometimes where you go in. You see this beautiful, beautiful place. Birds are flying. And you hear them. And the trees look gorgeous. But it's all poisoned, you know? And so-- there's big chunks of the American landscape that have been-- you know, sacrifice zones.

AMY YENKIN: Before I open to questions, Sara, you look eager.

SARA TERRY: I'm-- I'm really enjoying talking about each of them 'cause I don't get to all that often. So I'm proud of all of our grant winners. But I was particularly proud. So we've-- we've stopped giving grants at the 10th-year point. We're s-- seeing if there's a way to reconfigure and have funding from a different funder. Open Society was so incredible for partnering with us for so long. And Amy in particular made that happen. But at the 10-year point you sorta go, "Wow, how do we-- how do we say, 'This could be the last grant from the Aftermath Project'? What-- what's that-- what's that grant look


like?"

And-- Nina comes in with this amazing proposal. And you know it's the trilogy. It's the third part of a trilogy that I think is one of the most important post-9/11 bodies of work that's been done in America. And for us to be able to-- to fund something that-- that moves so deeply, that brought aftermath in such in an interesting way in an environmental combination with conflict. And I'd always wanted to find a way to do an environmental aftermath grant.

You know, here Nina brought the two together. And-- and Nina has this just, like, ferocious intelligence. And I'd be getting emails from her like, "Oh my God. It's here. It's here. It's here. I can keep going and I can keep going." I-- I-- I would have to say nothing made me prouder as the person who started the Aftermath Project than-- than this particular grant, to-- to bring this important of body of work to-- to a finish.

And one of my biggest regrets is that we didn't do an individual book-- for the year-- that Nina won because it's our-- our 10th anniversary book. So I just-- I just-- it-- it holds a very s-- every-- everybody has an important place in it, but this is-- a particularly special one for me.

AMY YENKIN: We're gonna open it to questions now. We're gonna bring a microphone out.

SARA TERRY: Thanks, Erik. That's Erik with the microphone.

AMY YENKIN: Thank you, Erik. Okay. Don't be shy.

SARA TERRY: You can-- could stand in line.

MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER #1: Hi Nina. Did you see--


NINA BERMAN: Hi.

MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER #1: --any effects of the depleted uranium in-- in the landscape itself?

NINA BERMAN: No, I didn't see any eff-- ef-- no effects other than-- so there are t-- two places for the depleted uranium. One was Indiana, and one was Concord, Massachusetts right by Walden Pond. And-- which was shocking and which the community itself has been engaged in. I mean, all these stories, it's-- they all follow the same pattern. Poison is discovered. Then it's denied. Then the company-- usually it's a military contractor. They've gone bankrupt, or they-- abrogate any responsibility.

And then the E.P.A. has to come in. And then it's a fight with the E.P.A. And so now the state of Massachusetts has certain cancer registry-- as a result of Concord. Can you prove that people have g-- gotten cancer from this? These things are super hard to prove. But what I saw was-- still the dismantling of this site, which was depleted uranium for the-- Balkan wars.

MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER #1: Thanks.

MALE AUDIENCE MEMBER #2: This also relates to the last-- series of photos. I was-- reflecting on Vieques and also on Love Canal, which not only the Hooker Chemical Company but the U.S.-- military was-- burying-- toxic materials. And then they had a school on top of it. And then I-- I recently read, and I don't know where we're at with this right now, that they were gonna redevelop this long after it was condemned and Lois Gibbs wrote her book and everything. So I'm curious if you were investigating other places like that as well and-- thinking of things internationally also. The-- kind of things that are going on in-- Russia or former Soviet Union.

NINA BERMAN: Sure. Thank you for mentioning Love Canal. You're one of the few people I've ever met that actually knows that Love Canal was a military issue. And-- I found this


information deep in a New York State legislative report from the 1980's. And so I wanted to go up to that whole Niagara area, which is really toxic. And it was-- you know, there was just only so many places and so much time. But what started me on this project-- well, there are two things. 1) 1987 I went to Vietnam. This was at a time when there were no U.S. diplomatic relations. And I saw the effects of agent orange.

And then in 2010 I did work on-- burn pit exposure. Burn pits are the open air pits that the U.S. government creates in all their big bases in Afghanistan and Iraq. And they're basically these most t-- horrible toxic sites. And I did stories on veterans who got super sick from burn pit exposure. And so this is what led me to sort of look at h-- kind of how tainted is the American landscape. But Niagara is a place-- that whole region is ripe for investigation. And they h-- really haven't cleaned anything up since World War II. It was a Manhattan Project site as well.

FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER #1: Apologies. (UNINTEL PHRASE)--

AMY YENKIN: Come to the-- to the mic.

FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER #1: Oh, sorry. Apologies. I was running a little late.

AMY YENKIN: That's fine.

FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER #1: So if it already came up-- I hope you're--

(OVERTALK)

SARA TERRY: It's okay.


FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER #1: But humor me for just-- a little quick recap.

SARA TERRY: We're totally casual here.

FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER #1: What are you planning on doing as kind of, like, continuing your work? I mean, I understand, like, the grant might be sunsetted or whatever. But I'm truly interested in hearing, like, what each individual artist, and photojournalist, and humanitarian-- I just spent a buncha time this morning in D.C. meeting with change makers in-- in D.C. about empathy and all of the different crazy things that-- that are going on in the world today and that have gone on. And so-- it's not just to talk about OSI and the grant itself. But each one of you, and how do you continue to do your work, and how can we continue to be a part of it.

SARA TERRY: I'll just tell you a little bit for the Aftermath Project. Definitely how we-- part of how it continues to live, regardless of what happens with-- the grant program, is our lesson plans, which are all available on the website. There's nine of them right now. And there'll be a 10th one. And I'm hoping to find the funding to actually put 10 out in the world. They're really important, amazing lesson plans. Facing History has got such an incredible track record with-- visual-- so it's visual literacy, but it's also historical literacy. So that's one way to live. Yeah.

(AUDIENCE MEMBER: UNINTEL)

SARA TERRY: It's high school and some-- it can-- some of it goes over into college. It just depends on-- on-- on sort of how you're teaching. In-- for-- for me I'm getting-- I'm-- I'm working more in America now. And stepping back from the Aftermath Project lets me go back to being a photographer again.

AMY YENKIN: And a filmmaker.


SARA TERRY: And-- and a documentary filmmaker. I'm working on-- I'm just really drawn to-- m-- my post-conflict work was in Bosnia and Africa. And I'm working now-- I'm really drawn to American stories, but I'm doing a documentary film and still photo project on-- mobile home parks, and the affordable housing crisis, and the fact that the wealthiest of the wealthy are buying them up as cash cows.

AMY YENKIN: Would you-- what are you gonna--

JESSICA HINES: I'd rather you come-- come back to me. I'm--

AMY YENKIN: That's fine.

JESSICA HINES: I'm not sure.

AMY YENKIN: Well-- Chris, it sounds like this work continues for you. You go in and out of it. Andrew, I don't know whether this is a closed chapter for you or just the book is published and it's a continuing project. And, Nina, I know it's a-- sort of a lifelong obsession. (LAUGHTER)

ANDREW LICHTENSTEIN: Well, I want to do-- I-- I want to start some-- I want to do something based on just being fed up with complaining. I mean, I just spent a year bitching and listening to everybody I know complain. And it's freaked me out. And I think there's a lotta people who are really doing a lotta amazing things-- to fight what's going on. And I'm not really interested in-- you know, the people-- the leadership positions or the people who we read about in the paper.

I'm interested in the people who are actually getting up and doing the work. And-- so


I'm gonna find some of them. So if you have any ideas, I want to be out here drinking for a half an hour (LAUGHTER) and coming-- I'll be collecting names and-- email addresses.

SARA TERRY: It's a good thing you already signed books. (LAUGHTER) Oh, and Nina. Do you want to--

NINA BERMAN: I mean, I've wanted to, you know, keep this project going. But I really need-- another researcher. I want to make a new American map-- which will take some time. And-- so I've put it aside. And I've worked on a few other projects that I finished up. And now my head is-- well, it's not clear. It's just stopped for a moment. And so-- but I have a Google Drive that's pretty awesome, with, you know, all these locations I still haven't visited. So hopefully one day I will fill up this map.

(OVERTALK)

JESSICA HINES: And I-- I can say I'm-- I am-- finishing my project-- with my brother, about my brother, my brother's war. And it's-- it's coming to a close. It's hard because I've worked on it for so long and it's been part of my life. I almost can't imagine not working on it. So it's-- it's-- it's difficult. But I know I want to make it a book. And that's my goal, my next step. I hope within the year-- that'll-- it will be finished and I'll move to another project that I hope I can make some sort of positive-- change if possible.

FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER #2: Hi.

AMY YENKIN: We'll-- we'll take one last question.

SARA TERRY: And I just have to stop because I want to acknowledge Elizabeth Herman, who’s


standing right here, is also an Aftermath Project finalist. And Glenna Gordon, please raise your hand, (APPLAUSE) is also an Aftermath Project finalist.

FEMALE AUDIENCE MEMBER #2: So these projects take a lot of time. And you can see how much time is put into them. And one thing that I've been thinking about is that now the news cycle is so fast that you can barely keep up with the present. And I love projects that are slow and take time, but they take time to also, like, consume and for people to sit with them.

How do you think this conversation can be injected into a faster-- is there a way to inject this conversation into a faster news cycle to make it so that stories of aftermath can be consumed in-- in-- in the current environment? Or is it just that it needs to run parallel to things that are going on today?

AMY YENKIN: That's a great question.

SARA TERRY: That's an amazing question. Why don't you all answer it?

AMY YENKIN: Yeah. (LAUGHTER) Any of you have an answer?

NINA BERMAN: Well, for instance, I was-- it was really important for me to find a current-- situation, location. So when I discovered Whidbey Island, an ongoing struggle where the community is actively trying to resist the expansion of the Navy and the takeover of the whole actually Olympic peninsula in northwest Washington and Puget Sound.

And so-- my problem is it's actually New York-Washington is really long distance. And if I had the time I would be out in Whidbey because that to me is really the-- kind of the crux of my issue right now. Like, what's happening there. And so when you-- I found that if you have something that's current, that's your opportunity to bring in the other examples and to show people, often activists who may not even know themselves, that, "Oh, I'm part of this ongoing struggle or ongoing story."

And often I would find people. "Oh, you have agent orange poisoning in the Passaic River in New Jersey. Do you know that it's also in St. Louis? And did you know that


it's also in Michigan?" And lots of times people don't even know that. So I think that you can connect communities by focusing on something that's current but bringing in some of the other maybe quieter aftermath stories.

ANDREW LICHTENSTEIN: Well, I'm kind of a reactionary. I-- I don't think anybody should talk about any news unless they've sat on it for 24 hours. So that pretty much gets rid of about 99% of what we hear and see on the internet and certainly on television. Just not interested. I think it's a lot of gibberish. I don't own a TV, but when I'm in some motel and I turn on the TV, I'm just shocked.

This is what people are watching? This is how they're absorbing their information? They don't-- have any idea what they're talking about. And it's not that they're stupid people. It's just that they're trying to beat the competitor. And-- so I think it's a very worthy notion to resist that. So I'm--

SARA TERRY: I think the--

ANDREW LICHTENSTEIN: --all for sitting on a story till you feel like you understand it.

SARA TERRY: And I actually think that's part of what-- where are you, Biz (SP)? The Aftermath Project-- I've-- I've-- I tried to do. I-- I-- I don't want to see a speed-up to insert into that news cycle. I am constantly in my own work and in the Aftermath Project talking about, "Could we slow it down?" I want to stop rushing, you know-- at-- at a two-inches-deep horizontal band where I understand nothing. And I want to create vertical spaces to consider and go deep with stories.

And-- and actually that's possibly one of my proudest accomplishments with this. I think we made a vertical space. Trying to figure out how to bring people into it, that's always a challenge. And that's-- I-- I-- I hope-- I hope we continue 'cause they'll be-- I hope there's a genius who can run the Aftermath Project who can make that part happen. But yeah. And-- before we end-- (LAUGHTER) yeah. Well, I-- she knows that I feel that way about her.


AMY YENKIN: Anyway. Well, let me--

SARA TERRY: But I want to say one thing about the book before you close up. So-- but I don't know if there's anybody else.

CHRISTOPHER CAPOZZIELLO: I think that the-- like, the consumption of news here, it's like we Americans consume it like alcohol. And we have this, like-- we put this spotlight on things. Then we move it somewhere else. And then we forget about that. And that's like what you've done with this, right? That's the beauty of it, is that when the spotlight moves, then what's-- now then what's going on over here? And-- and it's difficult, right?

I mean, you, and-- and-- and you, Glenna, and a lot of the other photographers in here, and those of us up here, we-- we want to look more deeply at things. And sometimes that's hard to do on a story that, you know, we are hired to do on a daily basis. You kinda-- you kinda skim the surface. But then to-- to go back in and you know. Like, then you start to peel layers back. And you-- you see complexities that you don't always see on a daily basis.

It's difficult to do that. And sometimes unfortunately we want to be shocked by this. You're in your hotel room, right, and can't believe that people are consuming this shit, right? And the-- the work that people are doing over decades brings deeper understanding. So it's-- it's sorta sad that-- I think that the majority of-- and, I mean, I have family members who are-- are-- you know, they have a very surface-level view of what's happening in the world. There isn't always depth, right?

JESSICA HINES: I can-- and I can say that I-- I appreciate your comment about the verti-- vertical strip-down into depth and-- and thinking about our world, and not-- not being in a hurry. I remember when-- when the little horizontal strip showed up at-- right after 9/11 is when the-- the news channels as I understand it-- remember it-- started to appear. But-- but we also have to remember the-- the news is a product. And it's being sold. And they're filling up the blank space, you know, in between the-- the commercials.

That's-- that's something we have to remember, too. And, you know, we're getting our news in so many different ways now-- that-- I-- I just appreciate time spent and-- and-- depth. And I-- I don't know what-- what the answer is to this. You know, how


do we solve-- the commercial value, you know, we put into the news and-- and a selling-- a selling point and instead get to really sharing what matters?

SARA TERRY: Can I segue into the book for a sec?

AMY YENKIN: You can segue into the book.

SARA TERRY: Can I do that?

AMY YENKIN: And then--

SARA TERRY: And then we'll finish.

AMY YENKIN: Then we'll close.

SARA TERRY: I just wanted to let-- so Nina Berman said this amazing thing at-- at-- Perry Photo (PH)-- with her own personal project-- new book, An Autobiography of Miss Wish, which is an amazing book. And she-- somebody-- and there's a lot of written things and a lot of-- material-- like-- journals and-- and things in the book. And-- Nina said, "Well, you have to read the book." And-- and I so resonated with that because that's true about the Aftermath Project. It's true in my own work.

And I love the idea of you have to read a photo book. Like, these are photo books, but you have to read them. And I think that’s-- we're inviting-- we're fighting against the scrambling of our brains that, like, is r-- reacting to likes, and, you know, hearts, and all that shit on social media and going, "No, read this." And 'cause there's text in there


that matters, which lead me to telling you about the Aftermath-- book that-- it is out here.

It's-- it's so deliberately done. It's not a chronology. I'm so proud of the book and-- and the-- what-- designer Tony Vanderheide (PH) and I did. Because we edited it to the poetry of Vyslavash Ymborska (PH). And you heard it in the video that started. And we absolutely cast out, "This was the grant year. This is the grant winner. It's a finalist. It's-- you know, a country, a topic, a project." And we edited to her poetry.

And the astonishing thing to me in considering that we were trying to build this conversation about war is only half the story is all of the images of the photographers speak to each other across all these, you know, ranges of topics. And they speak to the poetry. So read the book, you know? Read the imagery. Read the poetry that's in there. If you're a Kickstarter backer-- please take your copy tonight. We've got plenty here. And we're selling it for $40. Not 45. Give you a little discount if you get one here tonight. And they're signed.

AMY YENKIN: Well, thank you. I want to thank Nina, and Andrew, Chris, and Jessica. And I also want to thank Sara because Sara had this concept of an idea-- had originally funded, just was gonna be a one-year grant through an auction f-- provided by generosity of many photographers who contributed to it. And then really put her own career and work I wouldn't say on hold. But she's kind of a super woman and did both. But that's a big sacrifice to commit yourself to an organization for a decade when you're also trying to produce and put work out in the world. So I want to thank Sara for creating this project. And—thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

(OVERTALK)

SARA TERRY: Thank-- no, thank you guys.

* * *END OF TRANSCRIPT* * *

war is only half the story: ten years of the … · the director of the documentary photography...

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