VIDEO_DietDoctorPodcastwithRobbWolf(Episode24)

Dr.BretScher:WelcometotheDietDoctorpodcastwithDr.BretScher.Today,itismypleasuretowelcomeRobbWolfasmyguest.Now,RobbisoneoftheseamazingpeoplewhohasexperAseinsomanydifferentareasandIthinkyou'regoingtoseethatinourtalktoday.WecoverpoliAcs,wecoverthebiologyandchemistryoffoodscience,wecovertheemoAonsandthepsychologyofit.

Andofcourse,wecoversortofhowtoviewthesethingsfromadifferentperspecAvebecauseoneofRobb'smessagesthatIthinkissoimportantisthatweshouldn'tgetboggeddownalltheAmeinthespecifics,whetherit'sgeneAcsorwhetherit'snumberofcarbsorwhetherit'spaleoorketo,butsortofviewitfromahealthperspecAveandmakeitanindividualizedapproach,specificallywhenitcomestometabolichealthandcarbflexibility.

So,IreallyhopeyoutakeawaysomeofRobb'sperspecAvesandyou'reabletoincorporatethatintoyourlife,tosayokay,howdoesthisfitintomybiggerpictureofhealth.Now,RobbisaveryprolificauthorwithThePaleoSoluAonandWiredtoEat.He'sworkingontwonewbookswhichwe'llhearaliMlebitaboutattheend,andIcan'twaitforthosetocomeout.Andofcourse,he'sgotanumberofvideosonYouTubeandofcoursehiswebsiterobbwolf.com.

So,IreallyhopeyouenjoythisinterviewasmuchasIdidaboutthisjustwhirlwindofdifferenttopicsandtheperspecAveofRobbWolf.Andifyouwanttoseemore,youcanseeusatdietdoctor.comwhereyoucanseethefulltranscriptandofcourseallourotherinterviews.So,thanksandenjoythisepisode.RobbWolf,welcometotheDietDoctorpodcast,it'sapleasuretohaveyouhere.

RobbWolf:Thankyou,ahugehonortobehere.

Bret:Yeah,well,RobbWolftakesonalotofdifferentmeaningswhenpeoplethinkofwhoRobbWolfis,soIwanttostartwithwhoreallyisRobbWolfbecausesomeAmeswhenyoulistentoyouspeak,youcansoundlikeyou'reananthropologicalPhDoryoucansoundlikeyou'reabiochemistryPhD,oryoucansoundlikeyou'reafuncAonalmedicalpracAAonerwithyearsofexperienceoryou'retheCrossFitexpert.Youseemtobranchacrosssomanydifferentdisciplinesandwho'sRobbWolf?HowdidyougettothepointofhavingsomuchexperAse?

Robb:Oh,man...One-thankyou.SomegoodluckandIguesssomehardwork.So,Istumbledonthiskindofpaleodietconceptin1998aspartofahealthcrisisthatIhadanditwaskindof

thelastditch,youknow,rollofthedice,totrytodealwiththeulceraAvecoliAsthatIwasdealingwith.ButmymotherhadbeendiagnosedwithceliacdiseaseandawholecomplexofinterrelatedautoimmunecondiAons,lupus,rheumatoidarthriAs,Sjogren's,andnow,whenwekindoflookback,that'ssupercommon.

WeseethatalltheAmewherepeoplehavethesecomplexesofautoimmunecondiAonsbutattheAme,itwaskindofthisnovelthing.ButherrheumatologisthaddeterminedthatshewasreacAvetograins,legumesanddairy.AndwhenshetoldmethisattheAmeIwasaverysickveganandagain,theulceraAvecoliAsproblemandwhatnot.AndIsattherethinkinglike,shecan'teatgrains,legumesanddairy.Whatonearthdoyoueatifyoudon'teatthat,youknow?Imean,thedairywasn'tanissueformeattheAmebecausetheveganshAck,butIwaslike,grains,legumesanddairy,manthat'slikeagricultural.

Whatdidweeatbeforeagriculture?AndIwaslike,oh,caveman,Paleolithic,Paleolithicdiet.So,thisis1998andliterallyitwasastreamofconsciousnessandIhadheardthisterm"Paleolithicdiet"andIwentintothehouse,turnedonthecomputer,waitedforittobootupanddoitsthing.AndthentherewasanewsearchengineoutcalledGoogleandintoGoogleIputthetermPaleolithicdietandIfoundalotofmaterialfromthisguyArthurDeVanyandlessmaterialfromaguyLorenCordain.

AndIstartedinteracAngwithboththeseguys,IendedupshakingLorendownforaresearchfellowshipandspentsomeAmeatFortCollins.Andso,Iwasrightatthebeginningofthatsceneandthen,I'vealwaysbeeninterestedinkindofthestrengthandcondiAoningworld.Andin2001whenIwaspokingaroundonline,IfoundthisreallyweirdworkoutcalledCrossFitandtheywerereferencingthelow-carbdietsandpaleolithicdietataAmewhennobody,Imean,nobodytalkedaboutthisstuff.

Bret:Yeah,thisisbackin2001,right.

Robb:2000,2001.So,IendedupcofoundingthefirstCrossFitaffiliategymsintheworldandworkedwithCrossFitHQforanumberofyearsandso,I'vebeenreallyluckytobeatkindofthegroundfloorlevelofalotoftheseIguess,kindofmovementsthathavereallyarguablychangedtheworldthatweliveininalotofkindofways.So,veryfortunateinthatregard.

Andthen,Idon'tknowwhybutatareasonablyyoungagelikeinmyearly20s,IkindofsatdownandIthought,whataretheselike,bigpicturegoverningconceptsthathelpyouunderstandtheworld.AndI,formyself,Ikindofboileditdowntoeconomics,evoluAon,andwhatIwouldcalllikethermodynamics,youknow.

Imean,basicallyphysicsbutreallythermodynamicsbecauseofliketheenergyinputandenergyoutput.Ifsomeonesays,heyethanolisagreatfuelsource,youknowforcarbs,Iwouldsay,okay,welldoyougetmoreoutofitthanyouputintoit?AndtheysaynoandI'mlike,okay,thenit'snotagoodfuel.Andso,ifyou'reabletorunthingsthroughsomebasiceconomicslike

supplyanddemand,andyouknowefficientmarkettheoryandsomestufflikethat,itreally,inthingslikemoralhazard,likeifyou'regoingtosetupasafetynetforpeople,makesurethatitdoesn'tturnintoanoosethatkeepsthemtrappedthereformulAplegeneraAons.

LiketherearesomebasiceconomicstuffandthenusingthisevoluAonarytemplate,itdoesn'tanswerallthequesAons,butithelpsyouasksomereallygoodquesAonsabout,youknow,rangingfromhumanhealth,psychology,tomovementtoourcircadianbiology.Andlike,itreallygivesyoukindofanadvantageandso,I'mnotaparAcularlysmartguybutI'vegotkindofanoperaAngsystemthatIthinkgivesmeadisproporAonateadvantagewhenIlookoutattheworldandItrytofigureoutwhat'sgoingoninthat.

Andso,itledmetosomethingslikefuncAonalmedicine,likeCrossFit,likethispaleolow-carbtypeapproachandso,I'vebeenreallyluckyinthatsomeofmyearlymentorshelpedmeformthatkindofworldviewbasedineconomics,evoluAonandthermodynamicsandthenalsobeinginkindoftherightplaceattherightAmeandthenalsokindofworkedreallyhardwithsomeoftheseconcepts.

Robb:Yeah,that'sagreatwayyoudescribeitaboutthedifferentmodaliAesbecauseyoudopullfromsomanydifferentareasandIthinkthatreallyhelpsyourperspecAvebecausenomaMerhowmuchpeopleliketoputthingsinbucketsandputpeopleinbuckets,yousortofdefythatandsayhangon,we'renotallinbuckets.

So,you'reiniAallyknownasthepaleoguybecauseofyourPaleoSoluAonbook.Andthen,yousortofbecameknownastheketoguybecauseyoustartedtalkingabitmoreaboutketo.Butreally,itsoundslikeyourmessageisyoudon'thavetobepaleo,youdon'thavetobeketo,youhavetoapplytheprinciplesforahealthylifestyle.

Bret:Right,right.

Robb:Yeah.Andfolksforgetthatinmypaleobook,myrecommendaAonforthefirstthreemonthswasbetween30and50gofcarbsandthenstartAnkeringwithreintroducAonandwhatnot,andsoyouknow,eventhen,thefunnythingismyNorthstarhasreallyalwaysbeenthelow-carbsideofthisstory.ButusingthepaleoorientaAontothinkaboutbroaderpictureofthings,likeguthealth,circadianbiology,immunogenicfoods,andsothat'swherethe--maybethepaleo-ancestralhealthtemplatehasbeenreallyvaluableformeintryingtofigureoutsomekindoflogictreesfortryingtohelpfolks.

Bret:Right,andthatmakesalotofsense.So,whenyou'retalkingaboutpeopletryingtobehealthierandthechallengestheyovercome,soIthinkthat'swhatsortofleadstotheWiredtoEatbookthing.Andthat'sanotherpartofyourmessageandit'ssoimportant,youknow,thatthetypesoffoodsyoueatareimportant,right.Tryingtofindyoumacros,tryingtostayawayfromtheunhealthyfoods,youknow,gotowardsthehealthierancestortypefoods.Butthesocietywe'reinissortofstackingthedeckagainstus.

Robb:Absolutely.

Bret:It'smakingitmuchmorechallengingandthatwassortoflikethetake-homebehindWiredtoEat.So,whatledyoudownthatpathtosay,okaylet'stakeadetourfromthetypeoffoodstowhat'sgoingonemoAonally,what'sgoingonintellectuallythat'skeepingusfromachievingourhealth?

Robb:Youknow,inthefirstbook,ThePaleoSoluAon,IhadmaybeaparagraphrelatedtotheneuroregulaAonofappeAteandImademenAontothenoAonslikeadiponecAnandlepAnandghrelin,thesethingsregulateourappeAteandifweeatinacertainwaythenitcanimproveoursaAetyanditcanmakeiteasierforustobesuccessful.Butitwasreallylikeinaside.

Bret:Sothosearethehormones,justfordefiniAon,thatregulatesayifyourbodyishungry,yourbodyisfull,howthoseareregulatedbydifferentfactors.

Robb:Yes,yeah,includingsleepandexerciseandallkindsofstuff,yourgutmicrobiome,youknow,influencesthesethings.ButthenoverthecourseofAmethere'sbeenthiskindofmacronutrientwar,isithighcarb,isitlowcarb?Well,wehavetheKitavans,theylivedreallywellandeattonsofcarbs.ItriedtoeatthatwayandIfeltterrible,andmybloodlipidsgosideways,anditdoesn'tmaMerifit'ssweetpotatoesorriceorwhathaveyou...sowhat'shappeningthere?

Andso,overthecourseofAmeIthinkpudngsomeofthisideasaroundmetabolicflexibilityandindividualizedmedicineandsomefolksattheWhitesmanInsAtutedidareallyfascinaAngbitofresearchthatIbelievewaspublishedin2016.Theytook800people,putconAnuousglucosemonitorsonthem,didafullgutmicrobiomescreening,geneActesAng,fulllipidology,thentheystartedfeedingthesefolksdifferentmealandwhattheyfoundwastherewasmassivedifferencefrompersontoperson.

Andevenforasingleindividual,whitericemightnotbeabigdealbutabananawouldbe.Andyouknow,someAmesproducingnearlydiabeAcbloodsugarlevelsaferabananaversusacookie.So,therewasjustthismassiveindividualvariaAonbothintheamountsofmassofcarbsthatthepeoplerespondfavorablytoandthenagainusingthiskindofancestralhealthtemplate,whethernon-westernizedcultureseatalotofcarbsordon't,theliMlebitofdatawehaveonthemprovidinglikeoralglucosetolerancetests,theylookamazing.

Andthesepeopletendtobesmall,whichwouldskewtheoralglucosetolerancetestunfavorablyforthembecausethere'sjustlessvolumetodilutetheglucosein.Butforthesenon-westernizedpopulaAonsthathavebeentested,ahighbloodsugarnumberathoursoneandtwowas100or105,whichdon't--we'renotreallyconcernedunAlwestartgedngnorthoflikea160.

Bret:Right,itshowshowthesocietyandthenormcanchangesomuch.

Robb:Yes,so,whatitkindofdirectedmeto,wasacoupleofdifferentfactors.One,almostnobody,eventhoughyoucouldmaybemakeanargumentbecauseoftheamylasechainfrequencyandallofthisdifferentstuffthatmaybehumansshouldbeabletoeatasignificantamountofcarbs,andmaybecarbsplayedapreMysignificantroleinancestralhumanliving.

Buttoday,wejustdon'ttolerateitthatwell,likeingeneral;somepeopledobutmostpeopledon'tandthenifyouapplyastandardthatisconsistentacrosstheboardwithnon-westernizedpopulaAonsofwhatconsAtuteshealthybloodsugars,thenyou'reforcedtoeithereatverysmallamountsofcarbsorveryinfrequentlyorpost-exerciseoryouknow.ItstartsorderingsomestuffoutandwhatwefoundisthatifweAghtenthoseparameterswithaneyetowardstheneuroregulaAonofappeAtessothatpeoplecould,youknow,spontaneouslyreduceormaintaincaloricintakeathealthylevels.

Andthatwasdriveninlargepartbyfindingtheamountsandtypesofcarbsthatkeptthemwithin,youknow,preMyAghtbloodsugarregulaAonbecauseIthinkthatthatistheancestralnorm.ThesehugeexcursionsinbloodsugarwerenotnormalandwhatwelookatasbenignIthinkisanythingbutandisactuallymuchlowerinmagnitudeandduraAonthatisnotinjurious.

Onceyoustartrunningeverythingthroughthat,thatwaskindoftheframeworkforWiredtoEatandthenit,youknow--soithelpededucatepeopleonmaybethatbackgroundinformaAonandIthinkpreMypracAcallyhelpedpeopletowalkthrough,youknow,gedngtoaspotthattheycouldfindahealthyplaceinthat.

Bret:So,let'stalkaboutthatforasecondbecausethismetabolicflexibilityisabigtopicthatcomesup,youknow.Whenyou'retreaAngdiabetes,whenyou'retreaAnginsulinresistance,youreallyhavetobepreMystrictaboutavoidingcarbohydrates.Butpeoplealwaysask,"Isthisaforeverthing?,istheresomepointwhereIcanstarttointroducecarbsinahealthymanner?"

Andthat'swherethiscarbchallenge,thisconceptofmetabolicflexibilitycomesin.So,whatkindofadvicecanyougivetopeopleonwaystodetermineifyou'reatthatpointorhowtomonitoryourselftosayokay,ifittrysomecarbs,amIatapointwhereIcandothisinahealthymanner?

Robb:Yeah,ingeneral,iffolksgettoareasonablelevelofleanness,that'sprobablyadecentindicatorthattheymaybemoremetabolicallyflexible.WecandosometesAnglikeLPIRscore,lipoprotein,insulinresistancescore,whichisinteresAng.ItdoeseverythingthatlikethecrafpaMerndoesbutwithoutbeinghookeduptoaglucoseclampforlikesix-houratashot.

Andso,ifyourLPIRscorelookedgood,whichgoodformewouldbelike40orless,thenwecouldgetinandstartkindofkickingtheAresonhowfolksdowithcarbsandtheyusuallystartwithabouta50-gramamount.

AndifpeoplehavebeeneaAnghistoricallypreMylow-carb,thenIwouldrecommendjustAtraAngsomecarbsinsothatifthere'sanyphysiologicalinsulinresistanceinthebackgroundthat'sbeenkindofsparingglucoseforyouknow,must-haveresources,thenwecankindofshifthingsaroundandkindoftestthingsandseehowfolkslook,feelandperform,seehowtheirbloodglucoserespondsandthere'sjustkindofarealitythatsomepeoplewillregainsignificantheadroomwithregardstometabolicflexibilityandotherpeoplewillnot.

I'vebeeneaAngapproximatelyketogenic,peri-ketogenicfor20yearsnowandIhavetriedeverythingunderthesunandhonestly,it'sgoMenbeMerandironically,likeIstartedusingsomelowdoseloperamide,the--youknow,anA-diarrhealdrugalmostayearagoandthatfixedlikemaybetheremaining5%or10%ofkindofmyIBSstuffthatI'vehadandIcaneataliMlebitmorecarbsnow,youknow.Iprobablyhoppeditup10,15gpermealwherebloodglucoselooksgoodandit's--Iknowit'scrazylikepeoplearelikeohmyGod,youknow,likehemolyAcE.coliandallthestuff.

So,ifIgetfoodpoisoning,IactuallydisconAnueitthenbutit's--I'vedoneeverythingyoucanimagine.IfIdoareallyhardjiu-jitsusession,ifIlifweightspreMyhard,ifIdosomethinglikeCrossFit,Icanthrowsomecarbsinthebacksideofthat.It'suncleartowhatdegreethatreallydoesanythingfavorableformebecauseIactuallylikekindoffaMyandmoreproteinfoodsatthispointanywayandthere'slikestevia-sweetenedsugar,sugar-freechocolatebarsatthispointandsoI'mlikeokay,Ijustdon'tneedthatotherstuffbut--

Bret:So,whatnumbersdoyoushootfor,becauseyoumenAonedtheKitavansandthemoreancestraltypecommuniAesthattheirbloodsugaris100evenafertheyeatcarbs.Inoursocietywe'retalkingabout140,160,sowhatdoyouuseasyourguide,yourbenchmark?

Robb:Ithinklikeabout115,likeyoudon'twanttoseeanexcursionabovethat.Onehour,twohours,30minutes,likewe'dliketoseethewholecurveunderthat115,yeah,yeah.WhichisreallylowbutinteresAngly,mywifewhois40poundslighterthanIam,sheandIwilleatthesameamountofrice.LikewedidalotoftesAngonthisandpostedonsocialmedia.

We'lleatthesameamountofriceandshewilltopoffmaybe120.Imean,occasionallyshewillpopupto120.Minewillbe195andIhaveblurryvision,Ifeelhorrible,mymouthisdry,whichislikenodifferenceandyouknowwhat'ssointeresAngaboutthat?Shehasnolikeketoflu,shedoesn'thitawallgoinglow-carb,shewasa17thplaceCrossFitgamescompeAtor.WhatInoAcedisthatpeoplewhoarelegiAmatelywhatIthinkasmetabolicallyflexible,there'snowallthattheyhitgoingintoketosis.

Whereasfolkslikemethathavehadsomemetabolicbreakageatsomepoint,ifIgetintoathingwhereI'mdoingsomeexperimenAngandI'mdoingabitmorecarbfuelandthenIgobackintoaketogenicstate,it'skindofabrickwall.Like,I'vegottobetotallyonpointwithmyelectrolytes,I'vegota30-dayperiodwheremyVO2maxisdown,likemyworkoutputisdown.

WhereasNiki,she'llgoin,out,doesn'tmaMer,andshedoesn'tevennoAceacogniAveboostbeinginketosiswhereasIreallydo.

So,Ithinkhistorically,humanswentinandoutofketosisalltheAmeandbecausethey'remetabolicallyflexible,itdidn'treallymaMerbecauseitwasn'tlikehidngabrickwallwhentheyfirstdidit.ButIthinkwhenyouhavepeoplethattheirmetabolismsovertheirlifeAme,potenAallyhasbeenhabituatedtojustcarbohydrateintake,it'sareallygnarlytransiAonbutsomeAmesit'stheonlytherapeuAcintervenAonwecandothatgetsbloodsugarsatreasonablelevelsthatdrops,likethetotalinflammasomeloadandyouknow,makesthingsgenerallylookmuchbeMerandthepersonfeelsbeMer.

Bret:Youguysareliketheperfectcouple,thehighlight,thedifference,theindividualvariaAon.

Robb:It'sreallycool.IfwewerebothidenAcalinthatregard--

Bret:ItwouldbepreMyboring.

Robb:Yeah,butitwasareallycompellingstoryandevenpeoplelikeJoeRogan,we'rereallyfollowingthatandwe'rereallykindofjaw-droppedthattherewasthatbigdifferencebetweenus.

Bret:Yeah,soifpeopleareinterested,theygoontoyourYouTubepagebecauseyoudocumentedeverysingledayofthatseven-daychallengeandmore,sothatwasreallyinteresAng.So,you'vebroughtupexerciseafewAmes,soIthinkthat'sanimportanttoo,aboutcarbusebeforeandaferexercise.

BecauseIrememberyousayingyou'vebrokenmanyagoodmanbytryingtomakethemgolow-carb,ormanandwoman,Ipresume,withjiu-jitsutrainingandyouworkalotwithmixedmarAalarAsts.So,you'vebrokenmanyapersonbyhavingthemgolow-carb.Telluswhatyoumeanaboutthat?

Robb:So,IthinksomeofthesehighlyglycolyAcsportslikeCrossFit,boxing,jiu-jitsu,don'treallylendthemselveswelltoalikepurelyketogenicdiet,bypeoplesAckinginthatlike30to50gramsadaylevel.ButthisalsoreflectskindofmyDunning-Kruger,myAmedoneinDunning-Krugerland,youknow,likeMountStupidwhereyouthinkyou'vegotitallfiguredoutandthenyoustarttofigureouthowliMleyouknow.

AndwhatI'velearnedoverAmeissomeonewhoisfat-adapted,mayeat150to200gramsofcarbsadayandthey'resAllatatherapeuAcketogeniclevelbutthey'realsoprovidingenoughcarbs.Andthisisaguess,soI'mreallyguessinghere.Becausewhenwelookatmusclebiopsiesofpeoplethatareketo-adapted,themusclesrepleteglycogenpreMywell,buttheliverdoesn't.Andthat'slike,youknow,kindofthereasonwhyweendupinketosis.

AndIsuspectthatthere'sacentralgovernorelementpieceinourbrainthatsensesourenergyneedsandenergyavailability.AndwhatI'venoAcedisjustadding10,20gofquickacAngcarbslikedoingtheglucosetabletsfordiabeAcs.IfIdothat,ifIhaveathletesdothat,immediatelybeforeasession,what'sinteresAngistheirtotalbloodglucosespikefromthesessionislowerandIthinkthat'sbecausetheygetlessofanadrenocorAcalresponsetokindofdumpglucoseoutofanalreadyglycogen-depletedliver.

Andso,IthinkpartofwhereIbrokefolks,abigpiecewasIwasn'taMendingtotheirelectrolytesappropriately,theyneededfarmoreelectrolytes.ThatwasapieceIdidn'tdobutthenalsoIwasoverlystrictaboutwhatketosiswas.AndtherealityisifsomeoneisveganandeaAnga90%carbohydratedietbutthey'redoinganIronMantriathlon,they'reproducingketones,youknow.Thentheyswearupanddownthatthey'renot,buttheyabsolutelyarebecausethebodyistryingbyhookorbycrooktogetenergysubstrateanywayitcanandoneofthewaysthatitwilldothatisbyproducingketones.

So,apiecethatIdidn'tappreciatewaselectrolytesandanotherpiecewasthatketosiscanmeanalotofdifferentthingsdependingonthecontext,andhighworkoutputcan,youknow,changethecarbtolerancesignificantly.AndthenalsoappreciaAngthatsomeperi-workoutcarbohydrate,parAcularlyglucose,mayactuallyalleviatealotofthatglucocorAcoidpainthatweget.

Weseeitreallyprominentlyintype1diabeAcs.Youknow,wherethey'lldoahardworkoutandtheirbloodglucosemaygointothe200sandsothenyouhavetofigureoutastrategyofdowedosomeslow-acAnginsulinbeforeandyouknow,thiswholemiAgaAngstrategythere.

ButoverthecourseofAme,I'vejustrecognizedthatwecancyclecarbsaliMlebitsoonahardertrainingday,we'lldoparAcularlymorepreandpostworkout,we'lldoperi-workoutnutriAonlikethetargetedketogenicdiet.Andso,wejustdoaliMlebitoffiddlingandIfoundyouknow,wherenormally,say170-poundMMAathlete,theymaybeeaAng6or800gramsofcarbsadayandthey'reinflamedandthey'rehavinggutproblems.

Bret:6or800grams?

Robb:That'sthestandard,Imeanthat'swhatthesefolksdo.Wemightgetthem2or300gramsofcarbsandtheirinflammaAonislowandyouknow,whentheywakeupinthemorning,they'vegotadecentlevelofketosisoccurring.WemightthrowsomeMCToilinthemixtokindofgooseallthatstuff.ButbeingaliMlebitmoreflexibleonthatandreallyjustkeepingorientedtowardsperformanceandinflammaAonandrecovery.And,but,youknow,they'reatafracAon,thecarbohydrateintakethattheyhistoricallyhavebeen.Andreapsomebenefitsconsequently.

Bret:Soyou'redealingwithveryhighperformanceathletesdoingveryhighperformancetypeacAvitysotheso-calledaverageJoeouttherewho'sgoingtohitthetreadmill,hittheellipAcal,

dosomeresistancetraining,doyouthinkthesameconceptappliesoristheresortofaminimallevelofintensitythatyouneedtoworryaboutaddingthisextraglucose?

Robb:IthinkitvariesaliMlebitfrompersontoperson,likeIthinksomepeopleprobablydon'tneedtoaddperi-workoutcarbsatall.Idojiu-jitsufourorfivedaysaweekandIfind,ingeneral,ifIjustdo10,20g--sowhatIdo,IshowupatclassandIseewho'sthere.Ifthere'sabunchof22-year-oldcopsthatare,youknow,200pounds,andI'mlikeokay,justgoingtobeoneofthosedays,thenit'slike20gofcarbsbecauseIknowthatit'sgoingtobeafightformylifeifit'speoplemysizeandthey'reallwhitebeltsandIdon'tevenaddanythingtoitbecauseit'sgoingtobeagooddayforme.

Ithinkyoukindofmapwhattheexperienceisandyoucanplaywiththat.AndImeanit'sreallyanominalamount,youknow,thatfolksgetabenefitfrom.TheguysfromKetoGainsI'velearnedsomuchfromthem.TheywilldoaliMlebitofperi-workoutcarbs,youknow,10,20.20gramsisveryhigh,likethey'remorelike5gramsoraliMlebitofadoserightbeforetheworkoutanditseemsto--andagain,it'snotamuscleglycogenthing.PeoplegetpreMyspunoutaboutthat.Ithinkit'sacentralgovernorissuewherethebrainjustsenses,ohthere'saliMleglucosethere,we'regood,wecangetaferitaliMlebit.

Bret:Whataboutifyou'reusingfoodinstead?Wouldyourecommendlikeahandfulofberriesoryouknow,wouldyouevengolikeacerealorrice?LikewhatarethefoodequivalentsforthatglucosetabforthosewhowanttohavealiMle--?

Robb:IthinkaliMlefruit.Probablymoreliketropicalfruit,likethehigherglycemicindex,fasteracAngfruitbecauseyouwantittobepreMyquickacAng.Butagain,folkscanplaywiththat,youknow.Yeah,andagain,becauseketosisissodamneffecAve,likeit'sthemostunderuAlizedmedicalintervenAonintheworldrightnow,likeitisjustsuchapowerfultool.

Bret:That'sagreatcomment.

Robb:Butit'ssopowerfulthatpeoplehaveforgoMenthere'sthiswholeworldoflow-carbthat'slike50to150gofcarbsaday,whichisincrediblyhealthyandincrediblybeneficialandpeoplewillgoinandoutofketosisalltheAmeandIcouldencuragefolkstojustplaywiththingsandkindofseehowtheydo.Because,again,likeketosishasbeensovaluable,likeIwaslookingonPubMed.YoucanlookatthenumberofcitaAonsthathavebeenpublishedoverAme...

Anditstartsinthe1900slikeoneortwo,andaround2000youstartgedng--lastyeartherewere380like,it'sgoneexponenAalbecauseitaddressessomanydifferentissues,it'ssoeffecAve.Andunlikepaleo,likeIkindoflookatketoversuspaleo.PaleoiskindofliketheOldTestamentandthenketoiskindofliketheNewTestamentandIdon'tworryaboutallthatstuff,youknow,justdothis.Justgetyourbloodglucosetotheselevels,andthingsaregoingtobegood.Andingeneral,that'spreMyaccuratebutyouknow,it'sjustamuchsimplerintervenAon.

Ifsomebodysayswhataboutglutenintolerance...okay,we'llcheckthat...andyoucanAcktheboxonallthefoodintolerancestuffveryeasilybutit'snotthiswholelikecrazysonganddancerouAne,so,it'ssoeffecAvebutIthinkthatpeoplehavegoMenaliMleoverlywedoraliMleparanoidaboutthenoAonthatlike100gofcarbsfromwholefoodsources,fruitsandvegetablesisprobablynotabadideaforalotofpeople,parAcularlymoreacAvepeople,soIwouldplaywithperi-workoutcarbs.

Iwouldalsoplaywithyouknow,howdoyoufeelreintroducingaliMlebitoffruitsbeforeyourworkoutlikethat,likedoyousAlllook,feelandperformaswellorbeMer,doesyourA1clookgood,yourinflammatorymarkers,howdothoselook,howisyourdigesAon.Andifallthosethingsareonpoint,ItendtoleadtowardsmorelaAtudeinthedietversusless.

Bret:ForthosewhoaremoremetabolicallyhealthyandhavereachedaplateaustageandnotintheiracAvetreaAngsomethinglikediabetesorinsulinresistance?

Robb:Yeah,absolutely,yeah.

Bret:Okay.Ithinkthatwasagooddiscussionthereonexercisebecausesomanypeoplewonderhowtohandleglucosearoundexercise.Now,IwanttotransiAonaliMlebitmoretoWiredtoEatandsortofthesocietalpressuresofit'snotyourfaultnecessarily.There'ssomuchfromaphysician'sstandpoint,Icansaythatunfortunatelyit'sbeenoveradecadeofsubtlysayingit'syourfaultandyoujustdon'thaveenoughwillpower.

NotthatIeversaidthatthatsortofimpliedmessagethatyoucan'tsAcktothisdiet,butyou'vepointedoutthepsychologybehindorchestraAngpackagedfoodsandprocessedfoodstomakeitmoreaddicAve.Andyou'vetalkedaboutthedifferencesintextureandthedifferencesinsalt,whereyou'restuffed,youcan'teatanymore,oh,butherecomesachangetoourpaleMeandallofasudden,wecan.Imean,wasthiseye-openingandkindofrevelaAon,arevelaAontolearnallthisordidyousortofsuspectitfromthebeginning?

Robb:No,itwasabigeye-openerbecauseinmyearliercareerIwasatotal--topeople.Anditwaskindoflikejustdothis,youknow.Here'stheinformaAon,justdoit.Andwell,mykidsdon'twanttoeatthisway.MakeliMleJimmyeat,youknow,IwassonotappreciaAveofthecomplexiAesoflikenavigaAngasocialenvironmentandallthattypeofstuffandreallydidadisserviceforalotofpeople.

Like,IhelpedalotofpeoplebutitwasacrosssecAonofpeoplethatwerereadytogowhereastherewasanotherbiggroupofpeoplethatIhadsomeempathyandaliMlebitofcaringandIunderstandthisischallenging,Iunderstandthatyourco-workersaretryingtoundermineyou.Here'showwe'regoingtoaddressthat.Andso,yeah,Imean,itwasarevelaAonformeandit'sanembarrassing,painfulthingatthispoint,torealizeyouknow,kindofthewaythatIconductedmyselfearlyonbutagain,itwasthisevoluAonarybiologyframeworkthatbludgeonedmeintounderstandingthatthisisareallydifficultthing.

Ifyougointoa7/11,youhavemoreflavorandpaleMeopAonsavailabletoyouthananyPharaohofEgypt,TsarofRussia.Imean,otherthanrightupAllmaybelikethe1980sorsomething,liketheworldleaders,peoplewhocouldhavepressedbuMonsandannihilatedlifeonEarth,youcouldwalkoutyourdoor,gointoaconveniencestoreandhavemoreamazingflavoropAons.Andpeoplewillgetkindofhoity-toityandbelike,oh,that'salljunkandgivemeabreak,aTwinkieisn'tamazing,aSlimJimisn'tawesome,likecornnuts,youknow?Like,thesearephenomenal,right?

Bret:Theyhitallthedopaminereceptors.

Robb:Allthedopaminereceptorsandit'slikewellI'vejusthadsaltycrunch,wellI'mgoingtohavesweetandsour.Imean,youcancyclethroughallofthatstuff.AndifyoureallyappreciateacoupleofthingsoutofevoluAonarybiology,theopAmumforagingstrategy,andpaleMefaAgue.OpAmumforagingstrategyisthisnoAonthatyoutrytoobtainasmuchnutriAonaspossibledoingasliMleaspossible.AndthenthejuxtaposiAonwiththatispaleMefaAgue.

WegetboredwithanygivenfoodthatweeatbecausewewanttodiversifynutrientintakeandalsowewanttodecreasepotenAaltoxicantload.So,evenifyoufindalotofaparAculartypeoffoodlikeblueberriesorsomething,therearetoxicantsinthatfood.Andso,yourbodyjustsays,hey,I'mdone,atsomepointbutifyoucanmixandmatchflavorsandpaleMecombinaAons,youcanjustalmostinfinitelykeepeaAng.

Andthere'saguyAndrewZimmer,hedidashowManversusFoodanditwasagesagoIwatchedthisshowanditjuststuckinmyhead.Hedidthekitchensinkice-creamsundaechallengewheretheyliterallybringlikean8-poundicecreamsundaeoutinakitchensinkandhestartseaAngitandhe'smotoringalongandhe'sgottogetiteatenin,youknow,someamountofAmeandIdon'tknowwhattherewardis,it'slikediabetesoftheyearorsomething.

Bret:Likeat-shirtmaybe.

Robb:Yeah,yeah.Yougotdiabetesandat-shirt;youknow,goodforyou.Butheeatsmaybeathirdofthewaythroughandhestartboggingdown,andImeantheguyturnsvisiblygreenandyoucanseehimalmostretchingashetriestotakeanotherbite.

Bret:That'sawful.

Robb:Andthenheturnstothegalthatrunsthisshopandhe'slike,"Hey,canIgetsomeextrasalty,extracrunchyFrenchfries?"She'slike,"Sure."So,hetakesaliMlebreak,theFrenchfriescomeoutandheeatsaFrenchfry,takesabiteoficecream,eatsaFrenchfry.AndImean,hewasamassivepileofFrenchfries.IsatthereandI'mlike,that's2000caloriesofFrenchfriesbutthethingtotakeaway,soinstandarddieteAcsland,he--addingmorefoodshouldhavemadeitharderforhimanditdidn't.

Itmadeit,itwastheonlywaypossibleforhimtofinishthatsundae...itwasbyeaAngmorefood.Butyou'vegotthiscold,sugarysweetexperience,which,oncehispaleMefaAguesetin,itwouldcreateavomiAngresponse.Butthesalty,crunchy,umamielementoftheseFrenchfriesoverrodethatandthenhecouldjustplaythembackandforthandbackandforthandwasabletofinishthewholething.

Andifyoureallycanstepbackandlookatthatandunderstandthat,thenit'slikeoh,thisiswhythehyperpalatablefoodenvironmentisabastardtodealwith.AndhavinganexpectaAonthatpeoplehavelikeazilliondifferentfoodopAonsintheirpantryoryouknow,theygotoworkorfamilyfuncAons,likethatisalegiAmatelydifficultrealscenariotodealwith.AndwhatI'vefound,thefeedbackthatI'vehadisthatfolkswhohavehadeaAngdisordersorchallengeswithweightforyearstheyhadneverheard"couched"inthoseterms.

Theytookgoodengineering,goodevoluAonarybiologytobethiswayunAlnow.Andnowit'saliabilityandsosomepeoplehavegivenmereallypushbackonthewholenoAoninthatit'snotyourfaultlike,no,youneedtotakeaccountability.Onceyouareaware,thenthat'swheretheaccountabilitycomesin.Andthenthat'swhereyouaskyourself,doIwanttodowhat'snecessary,whichmeansdoingany-notyourbest-anythingittakestodoit.Ifyou'rereadytodothat,thenlet'sjumpinanddoitandifnot,okay,cool.

Nofoul,noharm,let'sfigureoutothermiAgaAngthings-canweimproveyoursleep?Canwegetyouexercising?Canwejustmaybe,AmerestrictedfeedingisareallyinteresAngway.We'renotgoingtolimitthetypesbutbygolly,youonlyeatbetween9and4that'sit,getaferit.Ifthosestrategieswork,therearesomeotherstrategiesoutthereandthemmaybewegetthepersonaliMlebithealthierandthenthey'relikeI'mreadytodosomefoodqualityshifs,youknow.

So,youknowwhereinthebeginningIhadaonetoolanditwasablunttoolnowIfeellikeI'vegotabitofaSwissarmyknifesowecandosomemorestuff.Butit'sthatoffloadingtheemoAonalresponsibilityandbaggagearoundourevoluAonaryheritage.Onceyoucangettothere,thenit'skindoflikeokay,there'ssAllhardworktobedone,there'ssAllchallengingsocialinteracAonsandwhatnot.Butit'sulAmatelyjustlikeI'mnotbroken,I'mnotweird,everybodyislikethis.

Bret:That'ssuchagreatexample.AndImean,IlovethaticecreamandFrenchfryexample.

Robb:It'ssopowerful.

Bret:Itshowshowpeoplesay,we'renotabombcalorimeter,we'renotatoaster,weareanemoAonal,living,breathingbeing,andyouhavetofactorthatintotheequaAonotherwiseyou'renotgoingtogetanywhere.Andthesethingsdidn'thappenbychance,Imeancompaniesaredoingthisonpurpose.

Bret:ImenAonedthatinmytalk,youknow.There'saDoritosrouleMeproduct.ItsayscauAon,somechipsareextremelyhotandwhatthey'vedoneiswithinonebag,youknow,ifweweretographthisout,thereareaveryfewextremelyhotchips,somemediumchipsandthensomemildchips.Andit'sinapowerlawdistribuAonandso,it'sthiskindofrandomizeddistribuAonthatmaximizesaddicAveness.AndIactuallywrotealeMertothosefolkslikehey,bychancedothechipsfollowapowerlawdistribuAonandIgotaresponseandthefirstresponsewas,"Hey,bytheway,thescienAstsinthefoodlabarehugefansofyourwork."

Bret:Thatmusthavemadeyoufeelrealgood.

Robb:Itwasamixedbagright.ButthetakeawayforfolkstokindofunderstandistheprocessedfoodmanufacturersarearguablymoresophisAcatedinevoluAonarybiology,evoluAonarypsychologythanweare.

Bret:Scary.

Robb:Theygetit.Andit'snotacontroversialtopicandthere'snotpissingmatchesoverhey,is50gversus30greallyaketogenicdiet,whichiswherewe,likeourcommunityjustspinsonthat.Theseguysarelike,hey,weunderstandevoluAonarybiologyandweunderstandhowtocreatethingstobeaddicAveandweunderstandopAmumforagingstrategyandpaleMefaAgueandhere'showwe'regoingtobypassallthatstuff.

So,whileweareinfighAngontheseliMledetailsandthesenuances,thesefolksarecreaAngfoodsthat--andyouknow,it'ssofrustraAngthatsomeoftheevidence-basednutriAonworldthey'relike,"Thesethingsaren'taddicAve."Andit'slikewhatplanetdoyouexistonandwhocouldyouhelp,youknow.Like,onlyfitnesscompeAtorsarguablyhaveneurosesaroundtheirfoodbecauseyouknow,theycan'tnotbeinlikecontestshapeallyear.

So,great!Yousucceedwithpeoplethatwouldsucceediftheylivedonthemoon.Awesome,thatprovesalot.Likecanyouhelpsomeonewho's500poundsgetbacktoametabolicallyweight?Like,showmethat,youknow?Andyoucan'treallydothatsuccessfullyoverthelonghaulwithoutsomeunderstandingofthiskindofevoluAonaryancestralhealthorientaAon.

Bret:GreatperspecAve.AndyoubroughtuptheissueofaddicAveness,canyouproveit'sreallyaddicAveandRobertLusAghasdonesomegreatworkaboutpoinAngouttheaddicAvenesstofood.ButIalwaysliketosay,definiAonornot,justtryandtakethatbagofDoritosorthaticecreamawayfromthat10-year-oldandtellmeifit'saddicAveornot,you'reinforafight.

Robb:Yeah,yeahandyouknow,whilethat'sgoingon,we're50yearsoutfromabankruptedeconomyintheUSduetodiabesityrelatedissues.Andthat'sjustthediabetessideofthis.Parkinson'sandAlzheimer's,whicharethenextwaveofmetabolicallydrivenissues.Diabetesissettobankruptus,butyoucanarguablymanagetosomedegreeadiabeAcwithdifferent

medicaAonsandwhatnot.Wecankickthecandowntheroadonthatfire.NeurodegeneraAvediseasesrequire24/7nursingcare.

Like,ifyouwanttoseeanabsolutehealthcaredisasterlikeyoujustproject20to25yearsdowntheroadwhentheneurodegeneraAveissuesthatwillemergeduetothesesanemetabolicunderpinnings,andthat'swheretheseevidence-basednutriAonpeoplelikeIjustwanttothroMlethembecauseit'slikeheythere,weneedtogetoutinfrontofthisbecauseyouknow,thebigindustries,thegovernment,kindofcollusionandallofthat,allofitissedngusupforadisasterandweneedaconcertedfront.

Whetheryou'rehighcarborlowcarb,IthinkwecouldagreethatprocessedfoodsarereallylegiAmatelyachallenge.Andthen,fromtherewecansortpeople.Okay,you'remorecarb-sensiAve,cool.Sweetpotatoesandoccasionallysomejunkfood.Buteventheoccasionaljunkfood,Imeanweallknowprobablysomeonewho'sanalcoholicandtheygettoaspotwherethey'relikeIcanhaveadrink,butIhaveone.

Buttheotherpeople,they'relike,Ican'tuselikeherbalAncturesthathavealcohol,it'sgottobeglycerine.Andweneedtorespectthat,that'sjustkindofareality.Andunlikeanalcoholic,someonewhohasfoodaddicAon,theysAllhavetoeatulAmately.So,howdoyounavigatethatthingandman,thewaysthatfamilyandco-workersinthissocietywilltrytoundermineyou,likethere'sanacAveprocess,tryingtopullyoubackintodisorderedeaAngorunhealthyeaAng,yeah.

Bret:There'sagreatcartoonwherethere'slikeaCEOofacompanyorsomethingsayingwe'regoingtotalkabouthealthintheworkplaceandinsAtuteawellnessprogram--ohandbytheway,there'scakeinthebreakroomtocelebratethebirthdaysthisweek.

Robb:Right.

Bret:AndI'mlikewaitasecond,cogniAvedissidencerightthere,yeah.

Robb:Yeah.

Bret:Itisallaroundus.Now,IwanttogobacktosomethingyoumenAoned.YoutalkedaboutAme-restrictedeaAng.So,ifyoucan'tmakeanydramaAcchangesinwhatyoueat,makechangesinwhenyoueat.YetatthesameAmeI'veheardyousaysomethingsagainstintermiMentfasAng,thatmaybethat'snottherightwaytogo.

Ithinkit'simportanttosortofdefinethedifferencesbetweenAme-restrictedeaAngandintermiMentfasAngandwhatyouseeasthegoodandthebadineachonebecausethatisaverypopulartopic,itcanhelpalotofpeople.Butwhendonecorrectly,andIthinkthat'sthekey.Wehavetorealizehowdoesthisfitintoourhealthylifestyle?So,giveusaliMle,acoupleminutesonthat.

Robb:Yeah,so,IwrotemyfirstarAcleonintermiMentfasAngin2005.ItwentinakindofsisterpublicaAontotheCrossFitJournalcalledthePerformanceMenu.Itwaslookingatsomestudiesinmiceandthemiceateonedayanddidn'teatonedayanditlookedlikethisbeauAfulmiddlegroundofbeingkindofanabolicandhealthy.Butalso,theygotthesamelongevityexpansion,healthexpansion,thatcrammedcaloricrestricAon;adequatenutriAondid.

Iwassuperjazzedonthis,releasedthisintotheCrossFitworldandthenIstartedseeingpeoplejustexplodebecauseyougetpeoplethatifyou,eveniftheancestralbaselineforacAvitywashigh,it'snotCrossFit,it'snotCrossFit5or6daysaweek.So,wehavetotakeeachoneofthesestressorsinthiskindofallostaAcloadasanindividualthingandthenstartaddingthemtogether.

Andifyou'redoingCrossFitonaconsistentbasis,man,you'redoingeverythingthatyourbodyisgoingtoadaptto.Youdon'tneedonemorehermeAcstressor,whichiswhatthatintermiMentfasAngis.WhatI'vefoundisthatthepeoplewhotendtogravitatetowardsintermiMentfasAngarealreadyaypeA,drinkingapotofcoffeeaday,doing6CrossFitworkoutsaweek.Theydohotyogaforarecoveryday;theyeat5gramsofcarbsamonth.Imean,thepeoplewhodoitarelikethistypeA,overthetop,they'rejustcrazy.

It'snotthetypeBpersonalitylikeacomputerprogrammerthat'smellowandnotsuperacAve.So,it'saverycontext-drivenstory.So,ifyouhadsomebodythatisinneedofimprovingtheirmetabolichealthandlosingweight,IthinksomethinglikeintermiMentfasAng,Ame-restrictedfeeding,which--I'veactuallykindofleanonsomeofBillLagakos'work,youknow,pudngmorecaloriesearlyinthedayandkindofrunningwiththatearliercircadianbiology.

So,kindoffrontloadingthecalories.So,ifwehadsomebodythatjustrefusestomodifythetypeoffoodthatthey'lleat,thenIthinkifwejustputsomelanelinesuptherethensayokay,eatwhateveryouwantbutonlyeatbetweenthishourandthishour,whatitdoesisitintroducessomedegreeofcaloricrestricAon.Like,theremaybesomeothermetabolicbenefitsfromeaAngearlierbutattheendofthedayit'scalorierestricAonandthatendsupbeinganetwinandsothatendsupbeingoneofthewisethingsthatwecanusetomovethingsdowntheroad.

OnthefasAngtopic,likepeoplearesogeekedoutontheautophagyandmTORandallthisstuffandthat'sallgreatbutworkingoutsAmulatesautophagy,drinkingcoffeesAmulatesautophagy,sidnginasaunasAmulatesautophagy.Now,lifingweightsmainlysAmulatesautophagyandmTORintheaffectedAssues,whichis,that'sgood,that'sallgoodthere.

ButifwejustwantglobalautophagysAmulaAonlike,inthebrain,wecandosaunaandwecandrinkcoffee,likeitcanbedecafcoffee,youknow.Andso,forlikeanagingpopulaAonandagingisanythingabove30,wherewehaveatendencytostartlosingmusclemass.Unlesswe'retriagingtheperson,priorityisgetthemtoloseasmuchweightaspossibleandimproveinsulin

sensiAvityallthat,thenwemightleanaliMleheavieronintermiMentfasAng,Ame-restrictedfeeding.

Butoncesomeonegetsreasonablyhealthy,andthisisapersonalbiasbut--Iwouldleanmoretowardstwoorthreemealsaday,lifweightsmoredaysthannotandrelyonautophagytocomeaboutfromourexercise,drinkingsomecoffee,doingsomesauna.

Andthenbyallmeans,oncepermonth,onceeverytwomonths,doaworkoutandthenfastforyouknow,threeorfourdays.Doafullbodylightstrengthtrainingsessionbecausethatbondsalmostalloftheleanmusclemassyoulost.Butasyougetolder,youknow,losingtwo,fivepoundsofmuscle,itisareallyhardproposiAontogetitback.

Andso,IseepeopledoingthingsoutoffearofmTORandcancerandtryingtogooseautophagythatisalmostguaranteeingsarcopeniaandyouknow,dyingduetohipfracture,andfallandfrailtyisn'tfunandcancerisn'tfun.ButIthinkifwe'renotovereaAngandifwe'resleepingenoughandwe'redrinkingsomecoffeeandwe'regenerallylivingwell,it'snotaguaranteeyoudon'tgetcancer,butit'snotaguaranteeyoudon'tgedngcancerdoingthefasAngeither,it'saguess.

Bret:Yeah.

Robb:ButIseeapotenAaldangerthereonlikethesarcopeniamusclewasAng.AndthosethingsagaincanbemiAgatedwithstrengthtrainingand,youknow,refeedcyclesandWalterLongotalkedaboutthat,thattherefeedisasimportantasthefasAngisandfrommyperspecAve,I'veseenpeoplegoaliMlebitcrazyonthisandanoverrelianceonfasAngaspartoftheweightlossstrategyinmyopinionit'schallenging,becausepeopledon'tlearngoodeaAnghabits.

Okay,soyou'refat,you'vegonefrom500to200,great.Youdidn'teatanythingduringthatAme.Whatareyougoingtodonowandwhathabitsdidyoucreateduringthatprocess?Arewejustgoingtogetintoasystemwherebyyougain50poundsandthenyoufastitoffandthenyougain25andfastitoff?Wealsoknowthatthat'snotparAcularlyhealthybecauseeachoneofthesebigdeltasinbodyweightitgetsprogressivelymoredifficulttolosetheweight,sowe'recausingsomemetabolicdamageinthatprocess.

So,youknow,whenwemakearecommendaAon,Ithinktheredoesneedtobeaneyetowardslikeokay...whatcouldbesustainableoutofthis?Andlet'slookatsome,youknow,secondaryandterAarythingsthatwecangetoutofthislikemusclemass,likeathleAcism,likecommunity,becausewefoundasportoranacAvitythatweenjoyandthatkeepsusintheseeconomictractorsmovingtowardssomethingthat'sgoingtohelpsolidifythishealthylifestyleversuslike,I'mjustamiserablepersonandI'mfasAngandIcan'thandlebeingaroundpeople.So,yeah.

Bret:Yeah,therewasalotthereinthatanswer.That'sagoodperspecAve.One,separaAngthosewhoarestrivingforlongevityversusthosewhoaretryingtosortofrepairtheirhealthandweightloss.TheissueofcommunityisinteresAngbecausenowtherearefasAngcommuniAespoppingupaswell.Butalso,theissueofwhatlessonsdidyoulearnandmakingsurethatifyou'refasAng,it'salreadypartofahealthynutriAonprogram,basicallyright,andthatyou'renottryingtodothattomakeupforotherwiseunhealthyeaAng.

AndyoubroughtupthetermsofautophagyandmTOR,soautophagyissortofthebody'scellularrecyclingsystem,cleaningupthedamagedcells,preferenAallyproducingthehealthycells,sAmulatedbyexercise,bycoffee,andIthinkthat'sinteresAngbecausethat'ssomethingthat'snottalkedaboutalotbecauseit'sreallytalkedaboutfromafasAngperspecAve.Todecreasethenutrientcenters.

Andthere'salwaysthisquesAonofthreshold,likewhatminimumthresholdisrequiredtotargetortotriggeradequateautophagy.Iwouldventuretosaythatwedon'tknowtheanswertothatquesAon.There'ssomeleveloffasAngwhenit's18:6,eaAngforsixhouraday,noteaAngfor18hoursaday,probablyisstarAngtogetsomeofit.

Resistancetraining,sonotnecessarilyenduranceorcardiotraining,resistancetrainingwithweightsisstarAngtogetsomeoftheautophagyandIthinkthat'sgoingtobeafascinaAngfieldofresearchknowingwhereyougetthebiggestbankforyourbuckandhowmuchdoyouneedtododowntheroad.

Robb:AndImaymodifymyposiAoninthenextfiveyearsandbemuchmorebullishonthefasAngbutrightnow,justthinkingaboutlookingatfolksthatdoagewell,theylifsomeweights,theydon'tovereatbutlikethiskindofyogafasAngcommunityI'veseen,justkindoflookingatthat,I'mlike,Idon'treallylikethatvectorawholelot,youknow.Andso,allofthatstuffthattheythrowoutthere,ItrytoinformitaswellasIcanwiththeresearch,butthere'sahugeamountofspeculaAonandpersonalbias.

Like,thesearethethingsIlike,coffee,lifingweights,Ilikejiu-jitsu,sothere'sthepersonalbiaspiecethatcomesinwiththat.So,Idothinkthatagain,thisiswhereaneconomicsperspecAvecomesin.Anythingthatwedohasarisk-rewardtradeoffscenariotoit.So,whenwe'relikeautophagy,youknow,okay,greatbutwhyandunderwhatcircumstances?WhatarewepotenAallygivingupontheotherside,youknow?JustasaliMlebitofbalancingthatstuffandthenthatcanhelporientourgoals.

Bret:Yeah,onceagain,agreatperspecAveonhowtoseethingsandhowitfitsintoahealthylifestylerather,youknow,it'satoolforahealthylifestyle,notanendinitself.

Robb:Right.

Bret:Andspeakingofthat,speakingoftheperspecAveofatool,IwantedtotalkbrieflyaboutgeneAcsandgeneActesAngbecausethat'sanotherthingthat'scomeupquiteabitrecently.AndpeoplereacAngtotheirgenes,specificallyinthelow-carbcommunity,reacAngtotheirgenesthatsayhowtheirbodyprocessessaturatedfats.

Whetherit'stheFTOgeneorthePPARalphaorthePPARgammaorAPoE,theseareallgenesthatareinsomewaylinkedinhowyourbodyreactstosaturatedfatsandpeoplecansay,I'vegotthismutaAon,thereforeIshouldnotgolow-carb,high-fatbecausethismutaAonsaysIwon'treactwell.I'veheardyouhavesortofabroaderperspecAveonthat,sotellmealiMlebit.

Robb:Yeah,andit'skindofcool.IhavethatlikefavorableFTOgenethatIdon'tintheorydowellwithsaturatedfatsanditwillmainlymanifestandseemstobeparAcularlyresponsivetodairy.So,I'vedonethisisocaloricstancewhereI'llweighandmeasurethefood,anddosignificantamountsofmyfatfrombuMer,cheese,cream.Andthen,myLDLcholesterolandmylipoproteins,Imainlyfollowthelipoproteins.

Like,atabaseline,myLDLPmightbe1000,1100,somewhereandwillkindoffloataroundthatrange.Two,threeweeks,Icandriveitupto26,2800eaAngmoresaturatedfat,especiallyfromdairyproducts.AndthenI'lleatmorealmondsandoliveoilanditplummetsbackdowntothat,youknow,1000,1100.What'sperplexingforme,andIthinkit'sacompletelyreasonablestatement,thatanindividualthathasanLDLparAclecountof2600who'sinketosis,sosupermodulatedinflammasome,alltheinflammatorymarkersarejustknockedwaydown.

Thatisacompletelydifferentpersonfromtype2diabeAcwitha2600--andIhavenoqualmsaboutthat.Andit'spossible,likePeterAdahasmadethepoint,thatLDLparAclesandLDLcholesterolarenecessarybutnotsufficientfortheatherogenicprocess.So,that'sapiecebutIseefolksthataremaybealiMlebitbrazenandcocksurelikeaslongasyouryourinsulinlevelsarelow,great,you'renevergoingtohaveaheartaMack.

AndIdon'tknowifI'mtotallycomfortablewiththat.Youknow,likeIwoulddoaCIMT,acoronarycalciumscan,Imightevendolikethe3Dimaging,andthen,ifwecomeoutthebacksideofthat,liketheearepeoplewhojustseesuperhighlipoproteincountfromanyflavorofaketogenicdiet,evenmoreofamonounsaturatediteraAon.There'sagreatpaperthatIjustreadonthebiochemistryoftheketosis,andketonebodiescanfeedbackthroughHMG-CoAandbeasubstrateforbothlipoproteinsandcholesterol.

Andsomepeople,theygetthatfeedbackloopanditlikelydrivesupcholesterolandlipoproteins.Thismaybewhysomepeoplewhoareanorexic,weseeexcepAonallyhighlipoproteinsandcholesterolinthesepeopleeventhoughthey'restarvingtodeath.Itdoesn'thappentoeverybody,butthisisoneoftheseoutliersandsothereisthisgenotypethathasthiselevatedketonelevelsthatabsolutelydriveuplipoproteins.

It'ssAllaquesAonastookay,giventhateverythingelseisgood,inflammaAonisgood,insulinisgood,there'salsosomepapersthatsuggestthatthemaindriverofcoronaryevents,ofstrokes,isactuallybloodglucosedeltas,likeyourbloodglucosegoeshighandthendropsandthenthatinflammatorycascadethatoccursistheprecipitaAngagent.So,ifthat'sthecase,andwe'renotundergoingtheseatherogenicprocessesbecauseofbloodglucosedeltas,isthatsAlldangerous?

So,thegeneActesAngiscoolbutit'slikeeachlayeroftheonionwepeel,Ifeellikeitjustmakesitthatmorecomplexandthatmanymore,youknow,kindoftogglesthatwe'retryingtovaryversuskindofjustlookingattheclinicaloutcomes;doyoulook,feelandperformbeMer?Domarkers,diseaseandhealthlookgenerallyfavorable?

ThereareacrosssecAonofpeople,thattheyreallyjustfeelgreatunderketosisbuthavewhatyouknow,inthatlipoproteinspecificrealm,doesn't--itlooksconcerning,likemaybetheirtriglyceridesandbloodglucosearegood.So,that'skindofthemainonethatI'velookedatiscertainFTOpolymorphismsmaybewoulddobeMerdoingmoremonounsaturatedfatsandyouknow,nutsandstufflikethatbutwedon'treallyknow.

Bret:Right,now,you'respeakingmylanguageabouttheevaluaAonoflipidsandcholesterolandcardiovascularhealth.Ithinkit'strue,thequesAonisunanswered,soitdoesn'tmeancloseyoureyesandforgetaboutit.Butthere'senoughofaquesAontosaythatyoudon'thavetonecessarilyreactandchangeyourlife.Wehavetofindoutwhat'srightforyouandmonitoryouandfollowallofyourotherparameters,likeyoumenAonedthecaroAdinAmamediathicknesstest,thecalciumscore,allyourotherlaboratorymarkerstomakesureyou'reprogressing.

TheotherinteresAngthingaboutgeneAcsthatI'veheardyoutalkaboutiswhydidthesemutaAonssurvive?DothesemutaAonshavesomesurvivalbenefitoratleastdidinthepast?Andthere'sareasonforthem,itcouldbeimmunemodulaAon,itcouldbethewaytheyaffectlipopolysaccharides,someofthetoxinsthatcomeintoourbody.AndifyouthinkaboutitfromthatperspecAve,thenallofasuddenyoudon'thavetoreactsoaggressivelyabouttryingtoworkaroundthesemutaAonsbutratherfigureouthowtheyworkforyou.

Bret:Right,andIthoughtthatwasaninteresAngperspecAveyouhad.

Robb:Yeah,sonotallofthecondiAonsare,someofthemarelegiAmatelylikepointdeleAon,youknowarandomevent.But,solike,celiacdisease,whenyoulookatthefolkswhoarepronetoceliacdisease,theyarelesslikelytohavesepAcevents,theyaremorelikelytofightoffawholehostofgutpathogensbecausethey'vegotawholecomparaAvelyelevatedkindofgutimmuneresponse,parAcularlyineosinophils,whichareusuallyassociatedwithparasiAcinfecAons.

Butthetrade-offisthatifglutengetsinanddisruptstheyouknow,zonulinsignallinginyourgut,thenthathyperacAvegutenvironmentisprimetoautoimmunecondiAons.So,itlookslike

celiacprobablydevelopedaswemadethetransiAonfromhunter-gatheringtojustlivinginsmalltowngroupsandjustlivingincloseproximitytoanimalswhereyougetlikeapoorsigntohuman,ducttohumanlikethiscrossreacAvitywithdifferentpathogensandthiswasanaMemptatyouknow,anaMempt--butitwasanadaptaAonforthepeoplewiththatcondiAon.

Itimprovedtheirsurvivalrates,andit'sinteresAng.There'savarietyofceliacthatdevelopedintheAmericasthatwasbasicallyunknown,butitwasanadaptaAonthatimprovesgutimmuneresponse.Butitwasonlydiscoveredmorerecentlybecauseyouknow,oftheseLaAnAmericantribesthathavethenbeenexposedtogluten,likeitwasanon-issueunAltheygotanenvironmentalexposurelikethat.

Bret:InteresAng.

Robb:AndtheyhadadifferentbutsimilaradaptaAonwhichsimilarlymanifestsinkindof,celiacdisease,HunAngton'sdisease,whichisaDNAbasepairrepeat.ThefolkswiththatcondiAontendtohavemuchhigherferAlityearlyinlife,theyhavefewerinteracAons.Theyaresuperbulletproofandwhat'sreallyinteresAngaboutthosegroups,thisappearstobeanoldadaptaAonandalso,wedon'tseewhatwecharacterizeasHunAngton'sdiseaseunAlrelevantlyrecentinhistory.

Bret:So,adegeneraAveneurologicalcondiAonthat'sdevastaAng?

Robb:Yeah,wedon'treallyseethatasafeatureofkindofclinicalmedicineeveninliketheVictorianera.Itjustwasn'tsomethingthatwesaw.Somethinghaschangedinourdietandourenvironmentthatnowistakingthisbenefitinyouthandturningitintoaliabilityabitlaterinlife.

AndIthinkthatnumberofthesecondiAons,liketheAPo-4Es,they'reclearlyofbenefitinavarietyofways,butthenwehaveenvironmentaltriggersthatarenowmakingthemliabiliAes.Thereally,kindofgnarlyandscarythingwiththeAPo-4EsisthatthesepeopletendtobemoreathleAc,maybealiMlemoreaggressive,footballplayers,MMA,boxing,youaredisproporAonatelylikelytobesuccessfulifyouhavethatgenotype.

Bret:FascinaAng.

Robb:Becauseyou'remoreathleAc,you'remoreaggressiveandyoualsohappentobemorepronetoproblemsduetotraumaAcbraininjury.Which,eventhetraumaAcbraininjurythough,likeit'salwaysprobablybeenathingbutwehavelowvitaminDlevels,wehaveapro-fatinflammatorydiet,wesleep2hourslessonaverageperdaysothere'salltheseotherthingsthatthengetpackedintothat.

Andso,thenumbersvarybutit'sabout20%ofwhatwemaybeexperienceishard-coatedgeneAcexpressionandtheother80%islargelyepigeneAcsdriven,youknow.It'showyou

sleep,whatyoueat,whetheryouexercise,ifyouhavelovingrelaAonshipsandallthatstuff.So,otherthanafewsituaAons,Ithinkthatthesethingsareshockinglymalleableandreallyproneto,youknow,usbeingabletomodifythem.

Bret:Yeah,IlovethatpointbecausesomanypeoplethinkonceyougetourgeneActest,thenyourdieiscastandthat'slikeyourfateinlifetoliveoutthesegeneAcs.It'snotthecaseyeah.

Robb:Yeah.

Bret:Iknowwe'vecoveredalotoftopicsandwe'rerunninglowonAme,butIwantedtogettotheworkyou'vedonewiththeRenoPoliceDepartment.

Robb:Oh,yeah.

Bret:AndthenaAveAmericancommuniAeswhereyou'vegoneintothesesecAonsandlikerevitalizedsortoftheirhealthandsavedmoney.AndIthinkit'ssoimportantfromapolicystandpointtoseetheimpactyoucanhave.Youknow,youreducedthediabetesriskintheRenoPoliceDepartment,yousavedthemmillionsofdollarsinhealthcarecosts,oratleastprojectedhealthcarecosts.

AndI'mcurious,one,aliMlerecapofthesuccessyouhad,two,sortofthechallengesyouhadandhowthiscanapplytoyouknow,thepopulaAoningeneralofmakingthesetypesofintervenAonstosavethegovernmentmoney,savehealthcaremoney,whatitmeansforinsurancecompaniesandsowecanpropagatethisfurthersoit'snotsmallsubsesofpopulaAons?

Robb:So,gosh.WhenIfirstmovedtoRenoeightoralmostnineyearsago,IwasintroducedtosomefolksthatweresuperinterestedinGaryTaubes'swork,theyhadhisbookandmybookintheirclinic.WhichatthatpointinAme,ifyouwentintoamedicalclinicandtheyhadanytypeoflikepaleoorlow-carb-itdidn'thappenliketheyburnedthesetypesofbooks,youknow.Theytoldmethattheyhadjustwrappedupatwo-yearpilotstudywiththeRenoPoliceandRenoFireDepartment.

Theyfound40peopleatriskfortype2diabetesandcardiovasculardisease.ThiswasbasedoffadvancedtesAngliketheLPLIRscoreandLDLPandwhatnotandalsoanextensivehealthriskassessment.Theyfoundtheseveryhighriskfolks,intervenedwithalow-carb,paleotypediet,triedtomodifytheirsleepandexerciseasbestastheycouldandthiswaschallengingtodoinapolice,military,fireandfireman.

Buttheyhadgreatsuccessandbasedoffthechangesinthebloodworkandthehealthriskassessmentnumbers,it'sesAmatedthecityofRenosaved22milliondollarswitha33to1returnoninvestmentprorataovera10-yearperiod,which,we'recomingontheendofthat,itactuallywasmuchbeMerthatwhattheiniAalprojecAonwas.

Andso,thiswasjustapilotstudyandthecityofRenokindofatlargeappliedthisprogramtotheirpoliceandfireandwhenIcameonthescene,Ithoughtman,33to1returnoninvestment.Ihadbeenmakingthiscasefor--whydon'tweseeMore'sLawinmedicine?So,liketheseelectronicgizmosthatwewereusing,theygetcheaperandbeMereverysingleyear.YoursmartphonegetscheaperandbeMereverysingleyear.

Everywherethatyouwillallowmarketstoinnovate,stufftendstogetcheaperandbeMer.ItbecomeseffecAvelyacommodity,likethere'satendency.Intheory,youriPhoneshouldbeeffecAvelyfreeatsomepoint,youknow,becauseofhowefficientthingsare,there'sreasonswhythatdoesn'thappen.TheonlywayweseeMoore'sLawoccurinmedicineistheplacesthatweseethatdonothavethirdpartyreimbursement.

So,plasAcsurgery,LasikisagreatexamplebecauseofveryquanAfiableoutcomesandLasikjusthadaninverseexponenAallikeit'sgoMencheaperandbeMeroverAme.Butmedicineatlargehasnot.Like,youknow,wepaymoreandmoremoneyandthingsaremoreandmoreexpensiveanditcostsusmoreandmore.

AndIthoughtthatwewouldbeabletotakethisthingandtakeitouttothemassesandbeabillion-dollarcompanyandgetmassiveadopAonandIwouldn'tsayit'sgonenowherebutwe'vehadverylimitedadopAon.Thefolksthathaveadoptedareself-insuredcapAves,they'rebusinessesthathaveputmoneyintheirowninsurancepooltoinsuretheiremployeesortheirworkersorwhathaveyou.

Andthesepeoplearefacingtherealcostsofhealthcare,whichareexponenAallyincreasing,sothey'reveryearsforwardintryingtofindsomethingthatisgoingtobeeffecAve.Manyfolks,parAcularlywithingovernmentalorganizaAons,they'reinthisthirdpartyshellgamewhere,ifyou'rethedoctoronthepaAentandsomebodyelseispayingforit,nobodyreallycareswhat,Idon'tcarewhatitcostsandtheinsurancecompanydoesn'twanttopayyouandsoyou'relike,wellthatguydoesn'twanttopayme,soI'vegottoincreasemycosttooffsetthatbecauseonethirdofthesethingstheydon'tevenlookatandtheyjustdenyitoutright.

So,youknow,tomatoeswouldbe$600apoundifwepaidfortheminathird-partypayerscenario.So,we'vehadsomesuccessthere,I'montheadvisoryboardfortheChickasawNaAon'sUnconqueredLifeprogramwhichisinteresAng.

WhatIhadenvisionedfortheRenoProjectwasanetworkofgymsassociatedwithdoctorsthatwouldprovideahubofcommunitysupport,talkaboutsleep,food,getexercise,youknow,workwithlocalCSAsandfarmersmarketsandyouknow,doallthistypeofstuff.That'swhatthesefolkshadputtogether.

So,weallloveconfirmaAonbias,soit'seitherconfirmaAonbiasandwe'rebothidiotsorit'sconvergentevoluAonwheretheysawexactlythesameproblem;they'reaself-insuredcapAve,they'refacingexponenAallyincreasinghealthcarecostsandwhentheysatdownandthought

aboutwhatdoweneedtodoaddressthis,thegovernorAnoatubbyandhissonshavecollecAvely--eachoneofthemhaslostover100poundsonaketogenicdiet,sothey'resuperboughtinonlikelow-carb,keto,ancestralhealth,theyliketheCrossFitmodelbecauseofthecommunityelement.

Andtheyhadputabunchofthepiecestogether,buttheyreachedouttousforsomehelp,sowe'vebeendoingsomeconsulAngforthem.TheyworkwithVirtaHealthalso.So,it'sreallycoolbutthebigchallengeshavebeen--ifyougotoalargecorporaAon,youdealwithanHRdepartmentthat'slikethiswallofyouknow,juststoneandglassandtheydon'twanttohearanyofthisstuff.Liketheyassumethatwe'retryingtoreducebenefitsandsoit'sbeeninteresAng.

Thesuccesswe'vehadisfrompeoplereachingouttous,they'reproacAveandthey'relookingforsoluAons.Iwillsaythisandit'sprobablygoingtogetmeinallkindsoftrouble,butwhentheaffordablecareactcameout,whentheystartedtryingtoconsolidatestuff,itmadewhatweweretryingtodotenAmesharder.ItmadeitmuchmoreonerousandIknowalotoffanshavekindofsocializedovermedicine.IwouldloveforallofthesemedicalenAAes;IwouldlovefortheretobetenAmericanmedicalassociaAonsthatallcompeteagainsteachother.

IwouldliketheretobesomuchmorecompeAAonandlikereallylike,okay,youguystreatcancer?Oh,yeah,wedotoo,let'scompeteandseewhowins,youknow.Andyoutake1,000peopleandyoudobestpracAcesbecausethecurrentmodeliskindofamonopolysothere'snotarealmoAvaAonforinnovaAononanylevelinparAcularonthiskindofgrassroutefundamentalhealthscene.AndifyouareafanofancestralhealthingeneralandyetyouarealsoafanofcentralizingmedicalpracAcesonlikeafederalgovernmentlevel,youarecudngyourownthroat.

Like,youshouldbeadvocaAngforhealthsavingsaccountsandformoreofyourmedicalprovisionstobeprovidedatalocallevelandnotatlikeafederalgovernmentlevelbecausethat'swhererealinnovaAonhappens,wherewe'vegotlotsofdifferentreacAonvesselsgoing--AndIknowI'mkindofgedngoffonaliMleofapoliAcalrantbutBillClintonwhenheenactedawelfarereform,hekickeditbacktothestates.

Heprovidedsomeparametersandhewaslike,youguyshavefivetoeightyearstofigureoutwhatyou'regoingtodo...go.Andsomeofthemweredisasters,someofthemweregreat,thethingsthatwentwellgotpulleduptoamorefederallevelanddisseminatedatabroaderlevel.Sowehad50differentreacAonvesselsinthatcaseversuswhenweenactedtheaffordablecareact.Itwasone.

Andthere'sthingsliketheSingaporehealthcaremodelwheretheyuseHSAsbothforpeoplewhoarewealthyornotwealthy,ahealthsavingsaccountiswhereyouputmoneyinit,it'syourmoney.So,poorpeopleinSingaporewhentheyreceivethatfinancialdisbursement,thatistheir

money.Butwhentheygototheirdoctor,everyprocedureislistedwhatthepriceis,whattheoutcomeis,whattheraAngsare,sothentheycanprice-shop.

AndifthatpersongetsabeMerjob,thatHSAgoeswiththem.So,they'renotcreaAngascenariowherethey're“disincenAvised”fromimprovingtheirpersonalfinancialscenario.Ifyoudie,thatHSAisinheritabletoyourfamily.AndI'mnotsayingthatisitorthethingthatweshoulddo--butbyGod,weshouldhaveacoupleofstateskickofftheAresonstufflikethat.

Andweshoulddosomeotherthingswherewecandecentralizethisprocessandthenitwouldalsoprovideanopportunityifwehad50differentstatesorevenifwewenttoalargemunicipalitylevel,it'sthepossibilitythatyouormeorsomeoneweknowintheketoancestralhealthscenegreaterthanwemighthavetheearofsomebodythat'sinacriAcalposiAonthatwecouldgetsomemovementinacitylikeReno,orChicagoorsomethinglikethat.

Andtheseeffectsaresopowerfulandsoeconomicallyimpacvul,ifwegetoneortwowins,thenit'sgoingtoreallyshiftheAde,we'regoingto--we'regoingtoseesomestuffchange.So,again,Iknowit'slikesupercontroversial,thesearethingsthatpeoplegetinfisvightsover...youknow.Whenpeoplearethinkingaboutmedicineandhealthcareandstufflikethat--againgiveitaliMlebitofathought,dowewantitbiggerordowewantitsmaller,amorelocalormoreunderalocalizedcontrol?

Atleastifsomebodyscrewsyouoveronthelocallevel,youknowwhotogotakeabaseballbattotheirkneesto...butifit'slikeCapitolHilliscoming,they'relikehereyougo,soyeah.

Bret:Ididn'texpectthattypeofapoliAcalresponsebutthat--

Robb:Metaphorical,ofcoursebutImeanthere'sjustmoreaccountabilityandtransparencyinsomethingthatfolksofendon'tappreciateaseveninthe,youknow,placeslikeSwedenandDenmarkandSwitzerland,moreofthegovernancehappensonthemoreofamunicipallevelthanlikethecentralizedlevelsolike,we'vegotitallbackwardsinthatregard.

Bret:Well,thepastfiveminutesofthatanswerjustshowsyourbreathofknowledgeandexperAsethatyoucanpullintogiveadifferentperspecAveforpeopletoseethings.So,wetalkedaboutthescience,wetalkedaboutthepsychologicalandemoAonalsideofit,wetalkedaboutthepoliAcsofitandtheimplementaAonofit.

So,tosortofroundoutthefactofhowbalancedyouare,youhaveyourtwobooks,ThePaleoSoluAonandtheWiredtoEat,andnowitsoundslikeyou'vegottwomoreintheworks.So,bringushomehere,giveusaliMleforeshadowingofthebookstocomeandhowpeoplecanlearnmoreaboutyouandhearmoreaboutwhatyouhavetosay.

Robb:Sure,yeah.So,I'mworkingonaketo-relatedbook.WelaunchedtheketomasterclassaliMleoverayearagoandit'sgonegreat.Like,we'vehadtensofthousandsofpeopleinthe

program.It'saverycuratedprocessandit'snotaone-size-fits-allapproach,it'sactuallyalotofkindoflogictreesandtriage.Whoareyou?Whatareyourgoals?Whatdoyouwanttodo?

Okay,basedoffthat,here'swherewego.Ifyourunaground,herearethequesAonstoasktofigureouthowtogoforwardandsoit'sbeenreallysuccessfulandwe'vetakenwhatwe'velearnedfromthemasterclassandpudngitallintoabook.AndI'mworkingonasustainabilitybookwithDianaRogers.SustainabilitytopicisabigdealbecauseIthinkwe'reinascenario,we'rekindoffighAnganasymmetricwarfarescenebutwe'reonthelosingside.

So,kindofthevegan,well,thevegans,they'lljustsaymeatcausescancer,meatcausesheartdisease,meatdestroystheenvironment.It'ssupercompellingandit'sanelevatorpitchanditsoundscompellingandit'spartofanepistemologythatisbeMerthoughtoutthanmostreligions,lieit'sjustsuperconAguousandmean-worthyandsAcky.

Andforyoutositdownandunpack"meatcausesheartdisease",it'saPhDdissertaAon.Like,it'ssuchanasymmetricwarfare.Theythrowthatoutthere,it'sscaryandit'sconfusing,it—

Bret:Thenitgetstheheadlines.

Robb:Itgetstheheadlinesandthenforyoutounpackthat--weeksoutofyourlife,yougottowrite,youhavetomake--We'retryingtoputtogetherthisbookwherewelookatthethehealth,theenvironmentalandtheethicalconsideraAonsofmeat.Andit'snotjustalow-carbbookbutit'smakingthecasethatmeatandanimalproductsareanindispensablefeatureofourfoodsystemandyouknow,ontheethicalconsideraAonveganismisnotabloodlessendeavor.

GrowncropsarenotabenignenAtyandGeorgiaEde'stalkwasfascinaAng--whenyoulookat--andsomeotherpeoplearetryingtolooklikethis--planetofthevegansisMonsantoandConagraonsteroids,that'sallthereislef.

Bret:AndsoildestrucAon.

Robb:AndsoildestrucAon,youknowandallthat.Andit'sacrazynoAonbutitmaybethatgrasslandsdoreallywellwithruminantsthatcoevolvedwiththemovermillennia,youknow.Andso,I'mgednginandkindoflookingatthecarboncapture,thiswholebigtermofnon-equilibriumthermodynamics,it'stheinputsandoutputsofawholesystem,andtryingtogiveapreMygoodaccounAngtothatbutalsoanaccessiblewaytohonorthesciencebutalsomakeitaccessibleforkindofalaypublicconsumpAon.

Bret:YouandDianaareadreamteamtoworkonthatbookandallIcansayisdoitwellandhurryupbecauseweneedit,weneedit.

Robb:I'mgoingtobeintoxicatedforprobablyamonthaferIgetthatbookdone,soIcan'twaittogetthatwrappeduptoo,yeah.

Bret:RobbWolf,thankyousomuchforjoiningme.

Robb:Hugehonor,thanks.