Reb Chaim Halpern gave divrei p‟seicha on behalf of the Union. He opened by

quoting the Chinuch on “shoftim v‟shotrim tiken l‟cho b‟chol sheorecho, that there is

a Chiuv on every town to set up a Beis Din.

He then brought the Choshen Mishpot describing the responsibilities of a Beis Din,

namely, Kashrus, Mikvaos, Botei Chaim, Pesach, and personal problems etc including

setting boundaries.

RC then continued bringing the mekoros of how to set up a town executive, whether

that is via elections or appointed by the Beis Din, etc. This town executive has to

work together with the Beis Din.

RC then described that amongst the responsibilities of the Union BD is that 9 of the

10 Dayonim sit together every Thursday night and discuss the issues and shailos that

have arisen and that every issue and question is discussed at length.

Reb Chaim said that many questions are asked by laymen of the community. He

explained to answer each of these questions a vast knowledge of Halocho is needed

which a layman cannot have and that the Dayonim use their knowledge to discuss and

decide upon the psak for each issue.

RC then set out one of the most basic tenets of the Union Beis Din. That being that

not one of the Dayonim has “any personal benefit” in any way or of any hechsher

given to any establishment and do not even take an interest or know of any financial

matters.

RC then tackled the issue of how a “kehilla” is defined. He brought the Shulchan

Oruch where it is stated that a kehilla is defined simply by the Burial Society that one

belongs to. IE that whoever wants to be buried in a Beis HaChaim run by a certain

kehilla is part of that Kehilla and has to adhere to every single thing that the Dayonim

of that Beis Din say.

RC then tackles the issue of “Shechutei Chutz”. He brought the Yorei Deoh where

many achronim, including the Chasam Sofer, the Taz and even here in England in the

recent past from Dayan Weiss, the Michas Yitzchok, that agree that any shechita that

is not the shechita of that Kehilla is considered Shechutei Chutz.

RC then said that every Kehilla has its own Chumros and went on to describe a few

Chumros that only the Union and Machzikei Hadass Manchester & Antwerp are

makpid on and for that reason, every member of a Kehilla may only buy meat from

his own Kehilla.

RC then laid out how the Union, from the outset was set up for both Golders Green

and Stamford Hill. How his father Reb Elchonon Halpern shlita is the Nosi of the

Union and is intrinsically involved in all matters of the Union and how important it is

that the Rabbonim of GG & SH can and do work together as one Kehilla.

RC then gave his divrie brocho and gave over the chair to the Chairman, Mr Mordy

Vorhand.

From here on in the report will be in Q & A format as was the case at the time.

MV (Chairman, Mr M Vorhand)

MOA (member of Audience)

MP (member of Panel)

Q: MV: Where does the income of the Union come from?

Mr Dovid Frand. The income of the Union is made up of 3 parts. Kedassia, the

AYBS and the membership of the Union. There are approx 90 shuls registered as

members, approx 2/3rds from Stamford Hill and 1/3rd

from NW London. The

representatives of these shuls meet twice a year. There are also audited accounts

drawn up.

Q: MV: There is a dire lack of Morei Hoiro‟oh here in NW London for shailos that

need to be asked in person. Will the Union arrange for there to be one of the Morei

Hoiro‟oh to be available for 1-2 hours a day to answer shailos?

Mr Dovid Frand. The Union has not yet done this. The Union did set up a Beis

Hoiro‟oh for general shailos in NW London which was unsuccessful as it was

underused. (Point disputed by MOA). We definitely might be willing to set this is

place for 1-2 hours a day.

Q: MV: Can you confirm that the main income of the Union to pay the Rabbinate is

from Kedassia? How many of the Rabbinate are on the payroll?

Mr Dovid Frand: There are 8 of the Rabbinate on the payroll.

Mr Shloime Sinitsky: there are 12.

Q: MV: Can you explain why there are 8 Rabbonim on the payroll to serve a Kehilla

of 2,500 when the LBD have 3.5 Dayonim to serve a much larger amount and also

deal with Mamzerus, Geirus and other world issues which the Union do not deal with.

Mr Dovid Frand. There are certain daily Shailos which are asked by our members

but not unfortunately by the majority of LBD members which need to be answered. In

fact our Beis Horo‟oh which is open in SH 8 hours a day and is in constant use.

MOA: These 8 Rabbonim are for Stamford Hill not NW London?

MOA: Surely it is the responsibility of the Rov of each shul to answer his

congregant‟s shailos

Mr Dovid Frand: There are many shuls whose Rov is not qualified to answer such

Shailos.

Mr Shloime Sinintsky. As Dayan Friedman and Dayan Grynhaus can confirm, a

large proportion of the shialos asked over the phone to the Beis Horo‟oh come from

NW London.

Q: MV: Through my research I understand that the income of the AYBS is approx

£250,000 per annum. Is that correct?

Mr J Lobenstien. Yes that is correct. Our expenses are made up on cemetery staff,

the office and particularly of transport as each levayo cost about £500-600

MV: Mr Mannes confirmed in the region of £300 for each levayoh.

Mr J Lobenstien. There are ongoing improvements to the cemeteries. For example,

the new wall around Enfield cost about £700,000 of which our costs were £180,000.

We also resurfaced the driveway which costs £135,000 due to using proper architects

and professional people and no money is squandered..

Furthermore there are expenditure which are not regular. For example with drainage

in both Enfield in the last few years cost us £40,000. Furthermore, despite three

experts in soil checking Cheshunt before purchase we have drainage problems there

too.

MOA: The amounts mentioned by Mr Lobenstien do not amount to much more than

one year‟s income? What about the decades of income that have not been accounted

for.

MV: Is there a marriage between the AYBS and the Union? What percentage of the

income from the AYBS go to the Union?

Mr J Lobenstien: 45% of the net profits goes to the Union. In previous years it has

been £40,000. Last year it was £15,000 and this year we have already paid out

£10,000 to the Union.

Q: MV: Mr Frand, It is common knowledge that in previous years Hasmonean have

been beneficiaries of the Union as set up by Dr Schonfeld. Id this continuing or are

there any mosdos that currently receive funds.

Mr Dovid Frand. No school currently received funds regularly from the Union.

There have been grants distributed from time to time. Here in Golders Green we have

given a grant to the Tiferes Shlome funfair of £1000. We also give grants to Beis

Brucha.

Q: MV. Because we are in the process of preparing to build our own full Mikva in the

shul grounds, would the Union be prepared to give a grant towards it?

Mr Frand. The Union see Mikvaos as one of the biggest priorities and would be

prepared to give grants to Mikvaos across London. The Union gave a grant of £50,000

over three years to the new Mikva on Hoop Lane. We were the only Kehilla who gave

any grant towards it.IY‟H we would be prepared to give a grant to your mikva.

Mr Lobenstien. The AYBS has also given various loans to the NW London Mikva

and will continue to do so.

Q: MV: Do the Rabbonite and the Union not see it as their Achrayos to try to reduce

the chicken and meat costs? When Mr Sinitsky came last time he welcomed how the

new milk reduced the cost of a bottle of milk. The Union seem to have no

responsibility in reducing the costs of staples.

Mr Sinitsky (in response to MOA). Kosher Deli sell whole chickens at a reduced rate

simply to attract customers. If you compare the costs of other items there or the prices

in any other LBD butcher the prices are similar to ours. Our chickens are slightly

higher wholesale due to the checking of Tzumos Hagidin, the slower pace of Shechita

etc.

MV: Is the Union interested in reducing costs. For example, one Moisod in Gateshead

shechted for themselves in Poland and reduced their own costs considerably. Would

the Union consider this?

Mr Sinitsky. We have started procedures to ascertain if going to Poland or elsewhere

would be considerably cheaper. I must stress that Kedassia do not set the prices in the

shops.

Mr Eckstien (MOA). I can confirm that I check my prices with LBD ones every

week. We are at comparable with the LBD butchers on chickens and cheaper on beef

to the extent that some LBD restaurants buy beef from me.

MOA: Westheim meat is much cheaper.

Mr Sinitsky: I would only compare with Kehilla Shechitas, not individual ones

without the costs of a Rabbinate etc. In Manchester for example, the wholesale price

for MH chicken is higher than ours.

MOA: You very aptly explained how your prices are comparable to other Botei Din

etc. But you didn‟t address the basic point that prices need to be reduced.

Mr Sinitsky. The prices are set by the shops. But as we showed, our wholesale price

is comparable to other shechitas as , obviously there are overheads.

MOA: Mr Sinitsky, you said to me after the last meeting that Rav Padwa said that the

shochtim cannot be under pressure, are the same Shochtim constantly, sleep in their

own beds at night. How now can you say that you might agree to fly them to Poland.

Mr Sinitsky. I didn‟t say that our Shochtim won‟t fly abroad. Our shochtim do work

not under pressure. For example, we shecht 600 birds an hour compared to 1100-1200

by the London board of Shechita. We are exploring the costs of shechting in Poland

but are not at that stage yet.

Dayan Grynhaus: Anyone from around the world who has ever visited the Kedassia

Shechita have been impressed by the relaxed atmosphere and that the Shochtim are in

charge. This is not the case elsewhere. The rabbinate are not involved or interested in

costs but we would never change anything or move anywhere else where the

Shochtim would not be in charge. We are prepared to look at moving if there would

be a considerable reduction in charge but under no circumstances would the

Rabbinate even consider reducing the level of the Kashrus in order to save money.

Q: MV: We understand that the Union shecht in an abattoir where they are then sent

to a company called munch meat. All invoices are sent by Kedassia. Does this mean

that Kedassia have a mark-up?

Mr Sinitsky. Kedassia have a small mark-up to cover the Shochtim, Hashgocha fee

and administration.

MOA: Reb Chaim Halpern told me last week that under no circumstance would the

Rabbinate allow the shochtim to go out to Poland to shecht.

Mr Sinitsky: Reb Chaim discussed this idea two weeks ago with me and he didn‟t

express that view.

Mr Frand. The question has been asked many times how Kedassia can be the

wholesaler as well. When the abattoir was not owned by Kedassia there was

reluctance on the part of the owner to making any changes or Hidurim. This obviously

is not the case anymore and the hidurim have increased massively. The kashrus is run

by the Rabbinate who do not involved themselves in the costs and so are free to set

any hidurim and changes without it effecting their ownership.

MOA: How can Eckstien sell his meat in Antwerp.

Mr Eckstien (MOA) Before I did this, the question was asked to the Rabbonim of

Antwerp exactly what I may and may not sell there. I do not sell any fresh meat in

Antwerp because of this, only worsht (cold cuts/salami), sausages etc which they need.

MOA: We are getting off the point. Reb Moshe Halpern put together this session to

explain what Golders Green gets from the Union.

Q: MV: What hashgocha does our bakeries here in NW London have and who are the

shomrim? Is it true that goyim take challoh?

Dayan Grynhaus: The Rabbinate set the levels of Hashgocha for each establishment

according to its individual requirements. One of the purposes of the Yotsei V‟nichnus

is to make the Bal Habos “mirsus” (scared). Obviously we cannot say or set times for

the bakeries to be visited as that would erode that. The mashgichim are …… and on

average each establishment 2-3 times a day.

I can give you a shiur on taking challoh. There are two parts to Challah. The

separation and the „kvass shem challoh‟ In all bakeries I have visited across the world,

as part of the ingrained system of baking, the goyim separate the dough in a special

pot which is then called challoh by the Mashgiach. Here in Chutz l‟Oretz, there are

various Halochos in Challoh why this is fine and why even challoh taken after eating

is kosher.

MOA: Do Mashgichim come in the middle of the night.

Dayan Grynhaus: Yes, checks are made regularly in the middle of the night.

MOA: Is it true that in a certain establishment it occurred that the goyim baked their

own items in the oven together with the pittot?

Dayan Grynhaus. Something like this are extremely rare but things can obviously

occur, we are not aware of this, but if anyone hears of such a question ever occurring,

we obviously want to be contacted immediately.

MOA: Why is Grodzinsky‟s not allowed to sell the new Milk in case he uses it for the

coffee machine. Surely if a goy can be trusted to take challoh, he can be trusted to use

only a certain milk for the coffee machine.

Dayan Grynhaus: A Goy cannot be trusted to do something he will not understand.

The challoh is ingrained in him as part of the system of baking like turning on or off a

machine.

Decisions are taken at Rabbinate level and none of the Rabbonim, as stated before,

has any negios.

MOA: “The basic point which was brought up before was why Reb Moshe organised

this whole meeting. How much a chicken costs, how much water in a chicken,

whether we allow the coffee, all can be explained and understood.

The situation that we‟re facing and I‟m not sure that the Rabbonim and other people

sitting here understand this, is that the kehilla here is growing year on year. The

Kehilla was set up as one Kehilla for Stamford Hill and Golders Green. The „metsius‟

is that the most of the people who live here in Golders Green are distrustful of some

of what goes on in Stamford Hill. The way that things are done in Stamford Hill are

different from here in Golders Green where a large proportion work in a professional

capacity. It‟s a basic feeling, speaking on the behalf of many that I have spoken to is

that we don‟t even know who many of you people (on the panel) are. We feel the

Union and Kedassia are a Stamford Hill organisation and we are, for whatever reason,

somewhat mistrustful of them. How many grants have the mikvaos in Stamford Hill

had? We are not convinced anymore that being one kehilla is the way forward.” (loud

applause from audience)

Mr Dovid Frand: Here in Golders Green you have many young Rabbonim. You

have the likes of Reb Chaim and Reb Moshe (Halpern). So far there has only been

one single request for a grant from Golders Green. In Stamford Hill there are four

Mikvaos, none built by the Union, and we gave grants upon request. IY‟H we will be

giving a grant to your Mikva. We are prepared to support you. It‟s all the matter of a

simple request.

Mr J Lobenstien. It is very important that these issues are being heard. In the AYBS,

the NW London Burial Society has indicated that they have no interest in

representation in the AYBS. We are prepared to involve NW London. We want the

co-operation of NW London because for us there is no such thing as a separation

between Stamford Hill and Golders Green.

MOA: Why is there no one from NW London here on the panel tonight?

MOA: If it is true that you do want people to join, I only hope that it is not already

too late. With the greatest respect to the Rov, most of those sending to the schools

now belong to Botei Midroshim who, although affiliated to the Union, have no

connection to it. There are many foreigners who have come here over the past 10

years. They don‟t know or care about the whole Union and Kedassia thing.

Mr Sinitsky: You have to understand that the same concerns you have here in

Golders Green, there are large numbers of Yungerleit in Stamford Hill who have the

same concerns. In the past few years, as you can understand, there has been very little

given out. We did give £10,000 to one Mikva in Stamford Hill which at a standstill

due to lack of funds.

MOA: I gave the Mikva as an example but that‟s not really what this is about. We see

the likes of Dayan Gelley and Dayan Abrahams around, they live in the area, are our

neighbours, we all speak to them and are in contact with day to day. These are the

people we feel have the answers. Then we say that we can‟t eat their meat, use their

Eruv. This community is growing closer, the shuls in the area are closer and there

aren‟t any more any staunch Union members under the age of 50 and unfortunately

there won‟t be any more so I wonder what the point of it is.

Mr Sinitsky. I work closely with Dayan Ehrentreu, Dayan Gelley and Dayan

Abraham on a number of issues. There are also a lot of other younger Rabbonim such

as Reb Chaim, Reb Moshe (Halpern), Reb Greenberg who are available to help

people with their questions.

MOA: I asked one of the Golders Green representatives on the Kedassia board why

he left and he said that the first 1.5 hours were about Stamford Hill and only a short

time about Golders Green.

Mr Sinitsky. I chair this meeting and we discuss the issues relating to Kashrus, not

the areas.

Q: MV: Reb Chaim said that the Kehilla is defined by being part of a Burial Society.

There are shuls which are affiliated to the Union for the AYBS but who are not part of

the Union and do not follow its Rabbonim. Surely to be part of the AYBS you must

belong to our shuls, not use the Eruv etc.

MOA: It has only recently been introduced that to be a member of the AYBS you

have to be a member of a Union shul. Therefore old members who pay their rights are

still included.

MOA: That‟s untrue. Ohr Chodosh is a new shul who all use the Eruv and they are

part of the AYBS.

MOA: Reb Chaim stood there and said that the mecha‟av on us is not use the Eruv,

not eat LBD meat in order to be buried in the AYBS Beis Hakvoros. That, Reb Chaim

said, is the mecha‟av on us. In which case, how can Ohr Chodosh and other shuls

which carry and have a Beis Din Rov and have no sheichus to the Union apart from

the AYBS be part of the AYBS?

Mr J Lobenstien. There is no rule in the Burial Society that people who carry in the

Eruv cannot be members.

MOA: Reb Chaim just said the exact opposite to what you‟re saying.

Mr Sinitsky. We need more time to discuss and answer.

Q: MV: One last question. Would the Union consider buying 100-200 plots in Eretz

Yisroel like the LBD have just done in Beit Shemesh?

Mr Dovid Frand: It could be considered.

MOA: Most Kehillos before Pesach offer some Matzos at a cheaper price to those

who need it. The Kedassia matzos are the most expensive. Would Kedassia consider

offering oil, wine, matzos etc for cheaper to those who need it. Oil costing 50p during

the year costs £8.00 for Pesach.

Dayan Grynhaus: We now have Hazelnut oil this year for wholesale £3.00 a litre .

Normal oil in the shops is £1.80. That‟s a very reasonable price. Kedassia have never

been involved in price fixing.

Mr Dovid Frand. One question submitted was why Kedassia don‟t lower the prices

in the shops. Then there was another question asked how we could sell to Tesco who

will undercut Jewish shops. If we sell to Tesco, market forces will reduce the prices

without setting prices. So what do you want us to do?

Kedassia Matzos start the 18 minutes from when the water joins the flour. That‟s 3

minutes less in each 18. We also have special extractors to remove the moisture and

particles in the air. Our costs are 6% more than other bakeries. That‟s why our matzos

are more expensive.

Thanks were then given to the Panel and from the Panel to the Chairman.