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Post subject: Michael Kelly's pressure point book Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2002 6:28 pm

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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

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Bill Glasheen

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 19991:01 amPosts: 16866Location: Richmond, VA ---Louisville, KY

I’m actually starting this book review before having read the book word byword, and cover to cover. Actually folks like me that have a lot of reading to dounderstand how to take a document and buzz through it pretty quickly –particularly if you are somewhat familiar with the subject. One can say it is acredit to Dr. Kelly that I could do so with such ease. The book is well organized,reasonably well illustrated, and speaks a language I’m familiar with –physiology. That’s not to say that someone from the school of chi would skipthrough so quickly – even with knowledge of the subject at hand. Dr. Kellywaters the material down a bit, but those without a science background willneed to fasten their seatbelts. As for myself, I was a fish in water.

The book starts out with a disclaimer. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Quote:

… No one should ever strike, grab, or otherwise attack the dim-mak pointsor nerves mentioned in this book because doing so can result in great bodilyharm or death. …

OK, so he kept his lawyer happy. Part of me wishes this society wasn’t solitigious – not because there isn’t danger involved, but because theoverstatement of risk causes the end user to ignore the warnings. To warnsomeone not to strike a “dim-mak” point is to eliminate contact sports as weknow them today. Our own kotekitae is as much a relic of iron shirt methods asit is a practical modern tool to condition the body for partner work. Tellingmartial artist not to consider working with this material is telling a pyro to stayaway from the matches in the kitchen cabinet. What is the risk here? Itcertainly isn’t as high as the impression this statement leaves, but it’s morethan what many pressure point instructors take into consideration as they wowtheir audiences with LFKOs (light force knockouts). Oh well…the lawyers arehappy now, and so the battle lines are drawn for the next lawsuit shouldsomeone incur harm and want remuneration.

The forward – as advertised – was by Earle Montaigue. For those not familiar

Uechi-Ryu.com • View topic - Michael Kelly's pressure point book http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?p=43824

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with him, check out his WebPages.

Tai Chi World

A quick look through the WebPages, and you realize you are in the land ofchi-sters. Check out the dialogue between Earle and folks wishing advice onmedical problems. This seems a strange bedfellow for someone that takes astrictly modern physiology approach to explaining the material in the book. Onthe other hand, it is the kind of bridge that must be built if there is any hopefor the educational light of day to reach those using surreal explanations forreal physical phenomena. I will admit to being amused by this final passage.<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Quote:

This book is an excellent companion to my two volume Encyclopedia ofDim-Mak

And so there’s the quid pro quo Earle and his buddy Wally Simpson – anAustrailian acupuncturist – will sell a few more books. In any case, a little bit ofstudy on the approach taken by Dr. Kelly in this material will reveal why thismarriage of convenience works.

To start with, one must clear the language issues. The terms dim-mak, kyusho,tuite, and pressure point are interchangeable here. With some folks, it isn’t. Inany case, the term dim-mak is choses for historical reasons, and to aleart thereader to the intent of the author.

WHAT THE BOOK IS ABOUT

This book attempts to give modern medical explanations for observedresponses to pressure point attacks that rely on the acupuncture meridiansystem.

This book – to some extent – assumes that many significant aspects of thatart work.

This book presumes that a pressure point strike is essentially a nerve strike.

WHAT THE BOOK IS NOT ABOUT

Nowhere that I could see does the book directly endorse the entire meridiansystem.

This book does not attempt to define striking points outside the traditionalpoints used in Chinese acupuncture and referenced in some “traditional”forms.

This book does not attempt to defend the concept of targeted sequentialstriking vs. simpler methods of combat and self-defense.

These distinctions are important, and are what give this work its identity.

The substance

After a general discussion, the book starts with concepts of neuroscience. If


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one is to understand the concept of one point activating or negating the effectsof another – one of the premises taught by the Chinese cycle of creation anddestruction – then one needs to pick up these concepts. Otherwise one mustrely on a system that – to my thinking – is archaic in comparison to what weknow today. The discussion starts with a review of the entire nervous system,and the role the autonomic nervous system plays in pressure point fighting.Then it gets into the important concepts: segmentation, reflexes, summation,facilitation, aberrant reference, and the nerve synapse.

From that point, Michael provides the mapping from the “old” (acupuncturepoints) to the “new” system, and the reason for the particular mapping.Several key tables put it all together in great detail. The points are tied to themajor nerve, the spinal level, and the organ potentially involved. Theneuroscience is the logic behind the structure of the tables. Then the issue ofmultiple (and setup) points are discussed.

Next the method of attack of a nerve is discussed. This is where form (localanatomy) and function go hand in hand. If one knows where the nerve is andwhat is nearby, then one can basically figure out the logic behind the attackmethod without having to memorize the reams of information in the “how to”books. Ahhh…a man after my heart. He must have detested (or pitied) some ofhis mindlessly memorizing fellow premeds as I did. In any case, the subsequentneurological processes and pathways subsequently involved are discussed.

Next, Michael defines the “Medical Knockout.” There’s a very important pointmade in this chapter, and gets into the whole “vasovagal” concept.<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Quote:

The mechanism of the pressure point knockout involves changes in theautonomic nervous system that cause a sudden drop in blood pressureleading to a loss of consciousness.

I find this most interesting for several reasons. First, it’s pretty easy for asystems physiology guy like me to understand. My graduate training involvedthe interaction of the various body systems. It’s “home” to me. But the secondimportant point here is that I believe someone like Bruce Miller might say “Truebut…that doesn’t define all knockouts.” His contention on several discussionboards is that certain knockouts happen too quickly for that to be the case.There is a “time constant” to these systems that would dictate a certain delayin-between stimulus and response. But some knockouts allegedly happen almostinstantaneously. Bruce claims that – in some cases – a more direct effect on thereticular activating system (RAS) of the brain (lights on or off…) comes intoplay. It is as if a circuit breaker is tripped. Michael discusses the role of theRAS, but to the degree that I have perused his book, I don’t find a discussion ofthis potential direct effect. The reason for the confusion is easy to understand;we cannot directly observe what is happening. But a biomedical engineer likemyself can see Bruce’s point. In any case, there are ways to test whether or notthis mechanism (vs. another) comes into play on any one particular KO.

In the next section, Michael discusses organ attacks. I know folks like Ian weredriven mad by discussions of body organ attacks on odd parts of the anatomy.The mechanism why this may be relevant is discussed. What ties it all togetheris the antagonistic control by the two elements of the autonomic nervoussystem on each of the organs. For instance, the parasympathetic nervous


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system stimulates digestion, whereas the sympathetic nervous systemstimulates the heart. Some points affect one specific organ more than the next,allegedly because of the anatomy (segmentation) of the spine and the specificorigin(s) of the nerves that innervate the organ in question.

The next two chapters are where Michael puts it all together. The basicconcepts are reviewed. Then specific sequences are discussed, and themechanisms behind the resulting behavior are explained. References are madeto typical martial sequences found in kata.

The final chapter is 6 pages on revival, and how that works. Frankly I thinkthere’s a key point in that chapter that perhaps is missed earlier in the book(unless I missed it in my brief scan). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Quote:

…slapping the spinal accessory nerve stimulates the reticular activatingsystem, thereby arousing the person from a loss of consciousness.

Can we think of this concept in reverse? Bruce Miller thinks so. Perhaps this iswhere a specialist in neuroscience (a bit of a black art with many openquestions) may have been of some use here. In any case, the revival section isboth vital and informative.

Why attempt a book like this? Why scare the chi-sters away with modernscience? Why add complexity to the pragmatic information gathered throughexperience by the ancient warrior? Michael has an answer. <BLOCKQUOTE><fontsize="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

Quote:

…one could use medical science to find the most effective dim-makapplications of a particular movement without experimenting on anyone. Ifan application seemed ineffective, one could slightly alter the technique tomake it more effective or search for a different application. Some mightargue that this could change how the traditional techniques are applied.While this may be true, it is relatively insignificant because change hasalways been a part of martial arts.

Amen!

My favorite part of the book is at the end – THE REFERENCES. No good modernmartial arts book should be without them, and this certainly is de rigueur inthe sciences. It allows the individual to do further research on statementsmade (and “footnoted”) in the text. It is the reason why I like historical booksby Steven Ambrose. It is the reason why I prefer a well-written book to a moviein many cases. And when I disagree with an author or form opinions that are myown, the structure of such writing allows me to do that in a manner that givescredit to the author that started the discussion in the first place.

In short, I like this book, I hope it is the start of many more like it. The martialarts are always in need of fine analytic minds.

- Bill


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Post subject: Michael Kelly's pressure point book Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2002 8:59 am

Post subject: Michael Kelly's pressure point book Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2002 3:35 pm

Post subject: Michael Kelly's pressure point book Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:26 pm

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited June 05, 2002).]

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T Rose

Joined: Thu Sep 24, 19981:01 amPosts: 468Location: Marlboro,MA US

Good Morning Bill,

Just a quick note to say thank you for your first review of this book. As youknow from other conversations my statement that "the whole body is a pressurepoint" kind of sums up my opions of the chi and pressure point techniques. Yet Iknow there is something there! Your statement that even "a blind squirrel cansometimes find a nut" summarizes my thoughts on chi and it's associatedtechniques. Jim Thompson gave me one of the best demonstrations andexplanations of chi that I have ever had (maybe the only one too).This doesn't mean that we (at our school) ignore this area. We teach/train in a'target based' training methology. We understand the practice of forcemultipliers. A book like this one seems to be a valuable reference. I will orderthis book where before I wouldn't have bothered to.

Thanks again,

T. Rose

[This message has been edited by T Rose (edited June 05, 2002).]

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jorvik

im doubtlessly better informed, but still none the wiser.the chi-sters, as youcall them, do seem to be strange bedfellows to a scientific study of anything.there may be a very obvious symbiotic relationship here though.as to this business of nerve strikes, the only conclussion that i have come toafter reading this thread, is to totally ignore them. I know a few good places totarget for good effect and i ll stick with them.anything more may very wellproduce good results but why break a nut with a nutcracker when asledgehammer will do?

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Bill Glasheen

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Quote:

why break a nut with a nutcracker when a sledgehammer will do?

Indeed, why?


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Post subject: Michael Kelly's pressure point book Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2002 5:39 pm


This is a philosophical discussion that the book doesn't touch, and it's just aswell. It would detract from the information that is present. But it's worth athread all its own. In fact...take a really good look at the question andmeditate on it like a good koan. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Quote:

We understand the practice of force multipliers.

The engineer in me likes the phrase "force multiplier." Electrical engineersoften use the term "gain." One can go through all the minutia of a book likethis, and miss some of the most important concepts. You nailed one of the bigones!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Quote:

there may be a very obvious symbiotic relationship here though

One could ponder this for quite some time. For the life of me, I can't figure outif Earle Montaigue is being pragmatic, selfish, clever, curious, collegial, or wise.It reminds me a bit of how Michael Gorbachev linked himself with the West andhelped catalyzed the destruction of the communist political life around him.What an enigmatic character! Nevertheless, relationships like these can causepivotal and historical change. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Quote:

im doubtlessly better informed, but still none the wise

Like fine wine, wisdom takes time. Whether you choose to "use" material likethis or not, it is out there. Our own physiology exists whether or not we chooseto understand it and make something with it. History marches on, whether ornot we choose to study it and reflect on it. There may be a time or a place or asituation where suddenly it makes sense to consider the material. Until then,each of us must make choices in life. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Quote:

When you come to a fork in the road, take it!

- Yogi Berra

- Bill

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Bill Glasheen

The thought occurred to me that it might be interesting to review the bookchapter by chapter. I have to tell you that - for me - it raised probably morequestions than it answered. That's not necessarily a bad thing. While it is


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Post subject: Michael Kelly's pressure point book Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2002 1:13 am



heavily researched, there seems to be a good deal of conjecture in places.That's understandable, given that Dr. Kelly wouldn't experiment on any of hisslaves to prove his points.

I will say that there are many assertions made that could be considered moreequivocal than the way articulated in the book. I'd love to dig in and draw someof the concepts out for discussion.

HOWEVER...

To do so would require two things.

1) I think it appropriate to ask the permission of the author to discuss his bookin great detail online. One could easily do one thread per chapter.

2) It would be useful to have AT LEAST a half dozen reasonably knowledegable(and chatty) folks in the discussion who have the book and have reviewed it. Iknow I'd absolutely like to have our guests from NY in the discussion -particularly budomaster.

Your call, folks.

- Bill

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TSDguy

Joined: Wed Feb 14, 20011:01 amPosts: 1835

OK, I'm sure I speak for the rest of the world when I say I want to see thishappen! It's high time something got discussed by people that know... anything.4000 years is it?

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Ted Dinwiddie

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 19991:01 amPosts: 538Location:Charlottesville,VA,USA

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

why break a nut with a nutcracker when a sledgehammer will do?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The nutcracker leaves one with something of value afterward. Thesledgehammer destroys all of the potential positive outcome.


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I went to a seminar given by Taika Seiyu Oyata last month. He brought up avery good point. Suppose an adversary comes at you. You respond and smash histeeth, break his jaw, and leave him unconscious and bleeding on the floor.What will the police think when they see it? How well did you protect yourselfif you left yourself that vulnerable in the end? What if your skill allowed you todefend yourself and control the adversary without destroying him? Do you notend up in a better situation?

Please note that I am paraphrasing with all respect to Taika.

This demonstration by Taika (73 yrs old?) and another I attended by ProfessorWally Jay (75 at the time) illustrated to me why going beyond the"sledgehammer" to the "nutcracker" was important.

There was a story I heard once about a young bull and an old bull looking downfrom a hilltop at a herd of cows...

------------------ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke

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T Rose

Joined: Thu Sep 24, 19981:01 amPosts: 468Location: Marlboro,MA US

hey bill .. Excellent idea. Although I am not 'in the know' about anythingconcerning chi (although during one chi demo where I was the lab rat, theexperiment conductor told everyone that I had 'great guardian chi' which kepthim from using his chi or something to that effect)I would like to volunteer forthis discussion. Just need to order the book now.. I believe in targeting as Istated before as a 'force multiplier'. What has turned me off from the pressurepoint, nerve attack crowd before is the reliance on chi, a very specific spot(usually the size of a nut), or a specific sequence. If you have ever whackedsome mutt humping your leg, then you will know that they don't always end upwhere you want them to be for your next meridian junction magical nervecomplex shutdown chi stopping finger probe. I like the concept of what Dr.Kelly is doing, presenting information for us to style flex.

Ted: We haven't met yet, hope someday we will. You put out a very thoughtfuland mature post. Sledgehammer for a nut is overkill, more like the right toolfor the right job. If some kid were attacking me I wouldn't hospitalize him/herif I could help it. Yet if attacked one must fight with total commitment. I havenever pretended or stated to be a moral or enlightened or better than avergagekind of guy. I see your point about dealing with police and civil actions aftersuch a social encounter. I am no Ueshiba and my skill level would proballypreclude me from dealing with someone in a manner as Prof. Jay would. Bylooking and learning joint manipulation, nerve points etc. we add another toolto our chest. The right tool for the right job yet the tool won't do the job foryou, it will just be a conduit for your skill.

Good Discussion..


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Post subject: Michael Kelly's pressure point book Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2002 1:31 pm

[This message has been edited by T Rose (edited June 07, 2002).]

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Bill Glasheen


Ted

Exactly my point.

That philosophical discussion happens on many levels. For instance, why is itthat the U.S. and the Soviets are now downsizing their nuclear arsenals? Whenwas the last time someone actually used a nuclear weapon? What HAS ourmilitary been using lately, anyhow? And if you are really itching to open up acan of whoopa$$ in this world whether on a personal or a global basis, what isavailable to use?

Everyone needs a sledgehammer in the toolshed, but it's not the tool you willuse on a daily basis. Nothing is worse than being powerless to defend yourselfbecause you are afraid of using excess force or afraid of the consequences ofyour actions. What of the teachers in the classroom being assaulted bystudents? Teachers striking back? What's an LA police officer going to do a weekafter a Rodney King incident? What of a U.S. military force fighting a globalenemy that hides in civilian neighborhoods? No matter how you cut it, there isno easy or single path to security.

- Bill

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Bill Glasheen


What about you, Uechiwoman? We need an acupuncture professional in thediscussion.

I've been sending out some feelers for a few others that I think might broadenthe expertise.

- Bill

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Sheol

Joined: Sat May 25, 20021:01 am

...So there you are, just standing there when the baddest hombre you can thinkof decides to take a piece of you. He might be armed. He might have friendsnearby. Escape is uncertain. You might be able to make one strike before hedoes. What do you do?


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Posts: 9

a) attempt to subdue utilizing a Dim Mak pressure point attack

b) make the good ol' "family jewel" attack

c) attempt to destroy his mobility with a strike at his knee, foot, or such

d) try to run anyways

e) make a bil-gee strike to his eyes in preparation for an followup

f) *insert action here*

I don't know anything about your opponent. He might be on drugs orintoxicated. He might look scrawny, bloated, or beefy. He might be a she. Is it acommon 'thug' or an experienced assailant? Who is your opponent? Why do youthink that your action will be effective on that person?

We can't choose our opponents in the real world. Maybe a pressure point attackmight work, but it might not do ANYTHING at all. For example:

A few weeks ago I was practicing stick-fighting techniques at a JKD kwoon butmy partner seemed to be having difficulties in executing it. The technique usespressure points on the shoulders and neck to draw the opponent down for afollowup. The problem was that even after the Sifu corrected my partner, itstill wouldn't work on me. The instructor thought I was resisting it, but Iindicated that I was pretty relaxed and was (correctly) not simply 'giving way'.

We tried it numerous times and it worked on my partner and on the Sifu but noton me. The instructor was now convinced that I was actively resisting and sothey tried the techniques with almost full force with (IMPORTANT) my consent.Since the techniques are part pressure-point and part mechanical, it worked,but only because I was not resisting. That the Sifu is slightly heavier than I am(by about 10 lbs.) and an experienced prison guard, was probably also a factor.It was strictly a mechanical compliance. If I was actively resisting, it wouldhave been a different story. Later on, I realized why.

About eight years ago, I was a competitive power lifter and would use suchheavy weights during my squat that the pores on my shoulder would actuallybleed, despite any padding I would use (including Manta Rays). I am convincedthat the sheer pressure of some of my lifts, over time, destroyed any sensitivityto such attacks on my shoulder, lower neck, and regions of my back. Thoseregions don't even bruise.

Now, most people aren't immune to those pressure-point attacks, but what ifyour opponent is? Also, people who have had traumatic injuries often lose somesensitivity in the region. My Spanish knife instructor was shot in his rightpectorial and has lost feeling in most of that area, though the muscles stillwork. I'd imagine that the pressure points in that area of his chest arecompletely 'dead'.

Pressure points have a place in martial arts theory, but actual techniquesshouldn't rely on them, especially those dubious ones. Yes, perhaps we don'twant to injure some punk kid, obnoxious drunk, or incensed woman, but


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neither must we dismiss someone as being "not a REAL threat", because wedon't know what form a would-be-killer might take.

So, does one adopt a strategy of 'escalation' or is it a 'gut instinct'? Perhaps it's acombination of the two. It's something to think about and discuss.

[This message has been edited by Sheol (edited June 07, 2002).]

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jorvik

my viewpoint of martial arts has always been that it is a last resort. when thetalking stops, when you cant run,that is when you need your martial art.i think i used a bad analogy before when i talked of sledgehammers andnutcrackers, because with hindsight i did mean a sledgehammer but i didntmean a nutcracker, i mean after all, a nutcracker was designed for the task athand, its tried and tested. it doesnt rely on meridians or chi. so i apologise forthat slip, i do agree with sheol though. i have done quite a bit of aikido andjujitsu, there are many pain holds that just do not work on certain people.the last thing to worry about if youre attacked, is your attacker.if you leavehim for dead, so what!! the police cant catch the criminals anyway ( nothingagainst the police, theyre usually under resourced and overworked) and evenwhen they do they only get probation.so id prefer to be judged by 12rather than carried by 6.could mr oyatas stuff work on a 25 year old thai boxer, well i would love to seethat.but somehow,i dont think i ever will.no, when alls said and done i ll stick with my sledgehammer!!

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LeeDarrow

Joined: Wed May 09, 20011:01 amPosts: 986Location: Chicago, IL USA

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by jorvik:im doubtlessly better informed, but still none the wiser.the chi-sters, as youcall them, do seem to be strange bedfellows to a scientific study ofanything. there may be a very obvious symbiotic relationship here though.as to this business of nerve strikes, the only conclussion that i have come toafter reading this thread, is to totally ignore them. I know a few good placesto target for good effect and i ll stick with them.anything more may verywell produce good results but why break a nut with a nutcracker when asledgehammer will do?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An excellent question, jorvik-sama!

One might be tempted to answer with "efficiency" or "speed of resolution of thefight" or "quick stop with minimal effort" but none of those short form answersreally deals with the meat of your question (no pun intended).

I guess it all comes back to the force continuum concept - applicable force thatmeets but does not exceed the level of danger to ones' self.


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If I can stop an annoying person from shoving me around by a simple kyushoapplication, such as a finger point to a nerve cluster (as opposed to uraken tothe temple, forinstance), I have not overreacted and, hence, limit my liabilityto some extent. Not to mention that I have expended little to no effort to slowor stop the problem and, perhaps, not even attracted the notice of thosearound me.

Strategically, making sure no one sees what happens is a good idea from anumber of standpoints - witnesses cannot even say for certain that I evertouched the guy. No one will try and "macho" their way in to take on the "badasset" karate-dude and no one will really be sure that anything at all actuallyhappened.

The second point, making sure that there is no invitation to generalize the fightinto a multiple opponent issue lowers the possibility of one haviong to expendMORE energy in dealing with a bunch of the offender's friends trying topiggy-pile on the karate-dude.

Hope this helps,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

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gmattson

Site Admin

Joined: Wed Sep 16, 19981:01 amPosts: 5972Location: Mount Dora,Florida

Very important points being made here. Even the most ardent kyushopractitioner will tell you that their techniques will not work on someundertermined percentage of the population. In my mind, this is like playingRussion Roulette with your life in a real fight. (And can you imagine trying tostop a real attack with a "no touch" knockout!)

I remember being told that "all traditional Uechi are kyushu strikes!" I'll justadd to that: "Hit as hard as you can and as often as needed to stop the attack!"

Guess that sounds like I prefer sledgehammer over nutcracker!=================================Just noticed Lee posted before me and mentioned dealing with a minimumthreat situation with a "nerve cluster" poke. This is great if the person reactsthe way you want him/her to! However, poking a person, looking for thatcluster, only to discover the proding is pissing him off real bad, might have theopposite results.

------------------GEM

[This message has been edited by gmattson (edited June 07, 2002).]

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jorvik


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Board index » Community Discussions » Bill Glasheen's Dojo Roundtable All times are UTC - 5 hours

could i ask a question of you mr. glasheen or one of the medicos/physiologistswho participate on this forum? i have seen pictures of tai chi people taking fullpower blows to the throat, with no apparent ill effect, they also have peoplejump onto their stomachs from the top of a ladder,how do they do this?i know its a trick, and one favoured by the chi sters but how do they do it?

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