truth and reconciliation commission amnesty … amnesty hearing transcripts - page 1 of 199 truth...
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TRC AMNESTY HEARING TRANSCRIPTS - http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/index.html Page 1 of 199
TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
AMNESTY HEARING TRANSCRIPTS
JOHANNESBURG - 6 (8 - 10 June 1998)
Hlasa, Mporeng, Thadaku PART 1, PART 2, PART 3
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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
AMNESTY HEARING
DATE: 8TH JUNE 1998
NAME: PITSO JOSEPH HLASA
APPLICATION NO: 2739/96
DAY: 1
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CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?
MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, this is the resumed hearing of the matter of Hlasa,
Mphoreng and Thandakubona. You'll remember it was heard in April this year but
was aborted by reason of fact that the microphones and hearing machinery wasn't
working properly. I think a little bit of evidence was lead but it was virtually
unintelligible and I think you Mr Chairman, decided to virtually start today day
novo.
The next of kin are now represented by Mr Ameen who will put himself on record.
MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman, I appear for the next of kin in this application. My
name is Saleh Ameen: S-A-L-E-H
A-M-E-E-N.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you start all over again please?
MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman, I appear for the next of kin of the parties involved in
this matter. May name is Saleh Ameen. For the record, I act on instructions of the
Legal Aid Board.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, let's just formalise it. Today is the 8th of June 1998,
resuming the applications of:
Pitso Joseph Hlasa, spelt: H-L-A-S-A, application
number 2739/96
Motlana Atasios Mphoreng, spelt:
M-P-H-O-R-E-N-G, application number 2740/96
Mxolisi Ernest Thandakubona, spelt:
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T-H-A-N-D-A-K-U-B-O-N-A, application number
2745/96
Mr Tloubatla, you are appearing for all the applicants?
MR TLOUBATLA: I'm appearing for all the applicants, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
Mr Ameen, we are starting now, only now at a quarter to twelve because you had
wanted to consult with your clients by reason of the fact that you got instructions
some time last week. Are you now ready to proceed or what is the position.
MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman, I got instructions very late on Thursday and these
were confirmed again on Friday. I was not able to consult with my clients over the
weekend. I have started consulting with them, I have taken statements from them. I
was busy going through the application, a copy of which was provided to me in the
middle of the morning today. I have not completed that process yet but I'm happy
for the evidence to be led and once
the applicants have completed their evidence, I will then cross-examine them after
I have consulted with my clients in order not to hold up the proceedings for the
morning.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, do you have a problem with that?
MR BRINK: No, I don't.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla?
MR TLOUBATLA: I do not have any problem Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will then proceed on that basis. Mr Tloubatla?
MR TLOUBATLA: I thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I will start by
leading Mr Hlasa, Mr Pitso Joseph Hlasa. He is Sotho speaking, I don't knew
whether there is an interpreter.
PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: (sworn states)
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa, you are one of the applicants in this matter. Firstly I
will go through your statement that you submitted to the TRC and then we'll go, I'll
lead you therein.
In paragraph 1 of your statement - that will page 4 of the bundle Mr Chairman, you
say that:
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"The political conflict between AZAPO and the UDF, the United
Democratic Front, had reached unprecedented levels in 1986. The
conflict started in the Eastern Cape"
Can you briefly tell the Committee firstly what happened in the Eastern Cape. You
say that it started in the Eastern Cape and it reached unprecedented levels. What
happened in the Eastern Cape?
MR HLASA: Yes, I have mentioned earlier on that there was a problem in the
Eastern Cape and that was in 1985, between AZAPO and the UDF. Members of
AZAPO were accused in many ways. It was about ideological differences between
AZAPO and UDF.
Now the main issue was the exclusion of whites by AZAPO and UDF on the other
hand felt that the white people might be of help in the struggle but this then spread
because of the Cradock 4 who disappeared. There were now accusations that the,
the conflict started just there until the conflict spread to Gauteng in early 1986.
MR TLOUBATLA: In, that is where you were staying, you were staying in
Soweto at the time? Where you staying in Soweto at the time?
MR HLASA: Yes, I stayed in Soweto at that time.
MR TLOUBATLA: Can you briefly outline, you know give us a brief outline of
the conflict around Soweto at that time, what was happening and how did you
conduct yourselves. Was there any violence, what happened?
MR HLASA: When this started in Soweto there were certain areas that were
controlled by UDF and some were controlled by AZAPO. For instance my area
which is Orlando East was predominantly controlled by BCMA and even the high
schools. I'm now referring to Bona Orlando High, Silelekela and Lufenze Girls
School.
Most students were not members but because the school was situation in an area
controlled by BCMA, we used to have meetings. I remember at one stage the then
Transvaal President of AZAPO. He was a teacher, and his presence there helped a
lot and there were other areas then like Diepkloof and Orlando West and these
were predominantly ...[indistinct] and there were areas that we shared, like Dlamini
1 and Dlamini 2. They were Black Consciousness Movement and others were
UDF.
Now after this tension has reached Soweto it was quite difficult for one to leave his
own area to go to another. I would not leave my area and go to Diepkloof. Yes, I
would do that under certain circumstances, wearing just private clothes, not any
organisation's clothes.
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Now there was a problem in Dlamini. There were fights and comrade George
Oukop's house was attacked. He was the Secretary General at that time. We found
ourselves having formed a group to go and assist because in Orlando, I mentioned
earlier on that we were Black Consciousness Movements, there was not threat as
such, like in other places.
CHAIRPERSON: You mustn't be too fast because we are trying to write what you
are saying.
MR TLOUBATLA: You also mentioned that some of you were permanently
displaced by this violence, can you elaborate on that? Were you personally
displaced and then when you say displaced, can you just explain what you mean?
MR HLASA: When I refer to permanently being displaced, there were some
comrades that I can mention like Thebogong Komezulu. His house was burnt and
Lerato, I do not remember Lerato's surname, they were in Zola. Lerato was a
member of AZAPO.
It happened that we tried to accommodate them in Orlando because their areas
were fighting, for instance Dlamini and Sinawani and Alexandra. We held camps
in Orlando for the sake of accommodating them so that they can have shelter over
their heads, trying to find food for them so they don't starve. Those people were
permanently displaced, they did not have homes.
Now the main reason again for these camps was to protect because when we
walked one by one we found ourselves in problems during the attacks, that is the
meaning of displaced, permanently displaced.
MR TLOUBATLA: These camps that you are talking about, how were they run? I
want you to explain the camps. In other words, in the camps what did you do and
who was in the camps?
MR HLASA: The displaced comrades and local comrades would be in these
camps. The camps were made for the sole reason of protection and we tried to
make the comrades understand what the policy of the organisation was. It was not
for us to out and attack the people, we had sit a certain spot and defend ourselves,
not to leave.
Political education was also involved. We were engaged in many other activities of
the organisation, that we would not engage in when we are not together. Those
were the activities at the camps.
MR TLOUBATLA: How big were the camps? In fact, let me put it this way, how
many camps do you know of and how big were the camps, in other words in terms
of people who were inside the camps?
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MR HLASA: These are not the military camps as such, these are houses. For
instance, the community of Orlando East was very sympathetic and there were
houses that we used.
In some of these houses you'd find that, well some of us stayed at our homes but at
night we would be 40 but when we disperse at night about 15 members would be
left behind. I can count at least five houses in Orlando East where such camps were
conducted. During the day we would be in large numbers.
Some of us who resided in Orlando East would be together during the day and at
night we would leave for our homes. If you felt very secure to sleep at your house
you were entitled to do that.
MR TLOUBATLA: And what was the specific reason for camping as you were
camping, what was the main reason for people to have to come together to come
and protect themselves?
MR HLASA: The main reason to conduct these camps was to defend ourselves as
such from the UDF. Many people were attacked at night, many houses in Dlamini
were attacked at night. Houses in Zola were attacked at night. Comrades were
arrested if they were found in smaller groups, for instance one or two but if you are
in a large group you are in a position to defend yourself.
The other thing that was done in the camps was the political education as I've
already eluded earlier on, to carry forward the aspirations of the organisation. That
is basically that, yes to take forward the programmes of the organisation and to
protect ourselves from the UDF.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by saying: "Comrades in small groups would
be arrested"?
MR HLASA: Not to be arrested as such. If we are two and we want to go to
Diepkloof and one recognises you, that you are a member of AZAPO, you would
land in danger. They would capture you and anything could have happened at the
time, they might have killed you, interrogate you, comrades from the UDF and its
alliances, SOYKO and SOSCO.
MR TLOUBATLA: You also mentioned that the homes were burnt down and so
on, do you know of any specific homes or parents that were either subjected to this
violence or homes that were burnt down?
MR HLASA: Yes. I said already that Thebogong Komezulu's house was burnt and
Lerato's home was also burnt. Ghots Lingani's home was very lucky because
information leaked before they could come and burn the house, then we organised
ourselves and we camped at that house.
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To verify whether it was truth, the whole issue of attack was true, we went to
Moletsane High and we indeed found them. They were quite a few of them. We
went back to the ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just a minute. I think you should allow your counsel to
lead you. The question which he asked you was: "Give examples of houses which
were burnt" and to which you should have said: "Komezulu's house, Lerato's
house, Lingani's house" and then wait for him to guide you.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Will you take charge of your client and direct him according.
MR TLOUBATLA: I thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Because he is just flowing and we have difficulties in following
him.
MR TLOUBATLA: You also mentioned - on page 5 Mr Chairman, of the bundle. I
think it's paragraph 3 there"
"Meetings were held in vain regarding the violence"
Do you know of any meetings? Did you attend any meetings and who were the
people who were attending those meetings?
MR HLASA: Yes, there were meetings that I attended. I explained in my
application that I remember very well there were many people, Mr Aubrey
Mkwena who resided in Orlando East was member of the UDF and there were
several meetings with him. I remember Mrs Sesulu, she worked at Doctor Asvat's
surgery. There were meetings there as well.
People such as Seti Mzibuko and Amanda Kwadi were discussing this whole issue.
The person who spoke on behalf of the Dlamini people was Kenneth Fitla. Now
there were meetings held on different times, discussing this issue. I remember our
leadership talking to Mr Tutu when this spread from Eastern Cape, so that this can
come to an end but it didn't.
MR TLOUBATLA: On page 6, paragraph 3, you are saying that - page number 6
of the bundle you are saying that:
"It was the policy of our organisation to avoid retaliation
at all costs, however my attitude changed completely
after the death of comrade Sipho Komezulu in Zola"
Can you briefly just tell us about the death of Komezulu, what happened?
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CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to interrupt you and go back to paragraph 3. What was
the purpose of these meetings?
MR HLASA: It was to get rid of the violence that existed. It appeared that there
was no relationship between UDF and ourselves with regards to politics. They
must have been aware at that time that the local struggle can be fought with whites
included and it was not our vision, we saw whites as part of the problem but you
must understand then that this violence had left Port Elizabeth and it was now
spreading to our area. Now the main issue here was the difference in ideology.
...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: The meeting was between which group and which group?
MR HLASA: Between UDF and AZAPO.
CHAIRPERSON: Now these people that you mention here, from which grouping
were they? You've just spoken about Archbishop Tutu for a while.
MR HLASA: Ja. These were members of the UDF. Mr Aubrey Mkwena, Mrs
Sesulu, Amanda Gwadi, Seti Mazibuko. SOSCO was a subsidiary of UDF,
SOSCO was following the characteristic ideology.
CHAIRPERSON: So these people were from UDF and/or its affiliates or its
associates?
MR HLASA: That's right.
CHAIRPERSON: Was the purpose of this meeting then to try and bring peace
between your organisation and its affiliates or associates on the one hand and the
UDF and its associates or affiliates on the other hand?
MR HLASA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Did it then succeed in doing that? Did the meeting then succeed
in doing bringing about peace?
MR HLASA: No, it did not because these meetings took place at the leadership
level. I do not believe that the grassroots level of these two organisations
understood exactly what was taking place up there but what I believe was
discussed up there was not put into practice down here.
CHAIRPERSON: So the conflict continues, the meetings notwithstanding?
MR HLASA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
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MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
MR MALAN: Sorry, just before you proceed, may I just ask, at these meetings,
you said you were present, who were the leadership of AZAPO present at these
meetings?
MR HLASA: Let me start at the meeting held at DOCC in Orlando East. I
remember well Mr Mabaso was there, comrade Jefferson Lingani was there,
comrade Sisi Baloi, I think she was the administrative secretary of the
organisation, she was present. There was a meeting held at Doctor Asvat's surgery
in Dlamini. The late Tiny Motlago was present at that meeting, comrade Sam
Siyema was present. I do not remember the others very well because this took
place many years ago but I have given you a few names of those who were present
at these meetings.
MR MALAN: And you were present at both meetings?
MR HLASA: I was present at these that I've mentioned but not as part of the
leadership.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
MR TLOUBATLA: You have mentioned specifically two meetings, are these the
only meetings that were held with the leadership of both organisations or were
there more meetings?
MR HLASA: There were more meetings held at the national leadership level but
they were not futile.
CHAIRPERSON: They were futile?
MR HLASA: They were not of importance.
MR TLOUBATLA: On paragraph 6, there is a paragraph numbered 3 there, you
say that:
"It was the policy of the organisation to avoid retaliation
at all costs"
When you say there was a policy to avoid retaliation, were there any specific
instructions to avoid retaliation and from whom did such orders come from, that
you must not retaliate?
MR HLASA: I remember the late comrade Muntu Miyeza addressed us and he told
us not to try and attack the comrades in the UDF, he said we must wait for the
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leadership to give an instruction so that we can act thereafter but the whole
leadership of AZAPO and AZAZIM discouraged us from retaliating.
You will understand that many comrades who died in Soweto were members of the
BCM. It was because we didn't retaliate, we always waited for the leadership to
hold meetings and come back to report. It has been the policy of the organisation
not to act without instructions from the leadership.
MR TLOUBATLA: You also mentioned that your turning point was after the
death of comrade Sipho Komezulu in Zola:
"This funeral became our turning point, for me and the
others who always advocated for retaliation and attack
as the best form of defence"
Now can you briefly just tell us what happened? How did comrade Sipho
Komezulu die or meet his death and then what happened at his funeral?
MR HLASA: Many things were committed by members of the UDF and we just
ignored them. Sipho Komezulu was on his way to work and he was kidnapped. He
was working for a trade union in Nuhaza. He was kidnapped in the morning and it
was only after a few days that he was discovered. He was brutally murdered and
his corpse was covered with stones.
I say it's a turning point because it was the first comrade to be brutally killed.
While organising for his funeral in Zola, I was out with, it was after the night vigil
on the day of the funeral, when we came back comrade Komezulu's coffin was
burnt, it was thrown in the street, there were no mourners and the fence was down
and this affected me a lot.
I did not understand how it came about that a person be killed and to be killed the
second time in the coffin on the day of the funeral. We went to the graveyard
Avelon. We left with this partly burnt coffin to bury him. We came back after the
ceremony and we walked through Tladi Molesani. The comrades from the UDF
attacked us because we were now going back home and there was no convoy
anymore, they attacked us.
The car that was severely attacked was one that was transporting the late Martin
Mohau. He had been released a few months before the funeral and he was also
brutally killed on the same day of the funeral. We lost Martin Mohau. He'd just
been released a few months from Robben Island.
Myself, I realised that the position of the organisation not to retaliate would not be
of any assistance to me because I've witnessed people dying brutally and we've
been waiting for the leadership to tell us what steps to take. On the other hand the
UDF was continuing with the series of attacks, now this was my turning point.
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MR TLOUBATLA: You also mentioned there that you were attack by SOSCO
members. These people, how did you know that they were SOSCO members?
Were you able to identify them?
MR HLASA: In those days you'd identify a person and his organisation by the type
of songs they sang. You'd be in a position to tell that these are UDF or these are
AZAPO because songs that are normally sung are those belittling the other
organisation.
There were UDF T-shirts, they were RMC, Release Mandela Campaign T-shirts,
SOSCO T-shirts, AZASO and SOSCO T-shirts, those were associates of UDF. So
we identified by those T-shirts and we identified by the songs. We also identified
them by their locality. If I was in Kladi I would know that this is a stronghold of
UDF.
MR TLOUBATLA: You were burying one of your comrades, that is Sam
Komezulu and then you are coming back from the funeral and then another
members is attacked, Martin Mohau is attacked and killed but why did you not, or
did anybody approach the police regarding these matters?
MR HLASA: I do not know anything about the police. I don't know whether
anyone reported this to the police but there were reporters always because you'd
even see incidents in the newspapers. I don't know how the police got hold of the
information, whether it was the parents who reported or the organisation, I do not
really know.
MR TLOUBATLA: Now coming to the specific act for which you are applying for
amnesty ...[intervention]
ADV BOSMAN: Might I just come in here with a question to clarify?
MR TLOUBATLA: Certainly.
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Hlasa, you spoke about the meetings that were held between
the two leadership, were these meetings held after your comrade - if I can just get
his name, was killed or was it soon after that or before that time? Do you
remember?
MR HLASA: It was before the killing. The conflict was still in the Eastern Cape, it
was not yet in the Transvaal.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa, now coming to this incident for which you are
applying for amnesty, do you remember the date on which the four members, the
four young men were killed?
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MR HLASA: I do not remember the date but I think it was in 1986 in August.
MR TLOUBATLA: Did you at that time know the names of the people that were
killed?
MR HLASA: I did not know them. I only knew them when I got hold of this
document.
MR TLOUBATLA: Alright. Can you in detail now tell us how you got into the
whole incident, where it started, what you did and so on? Just start from the time
when you started being involved in this attack.
MR HLASA: Comrade Jefferson Lingani stayed in Orlando West and we got a
report that his house was attacked and burnt with petrol bombs. He was in Orlando
West, he came down to Orlando East where we had our camps and he got hold of a
few comrades and they went back to clean the remains of the burnt house.
There was also an anticipation of a further attack. Now they armed ...[intervention]
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa, just slow down, don't be so fast.
MR HLASA: Okay.
MR TLOUBATLA: You say who came to report to you about Mr Lingani's house?
MR HLASA: He personally came to Orlando East the following morning to report
that his house had been burnt. He came to Orlando East because he knew there
were camps and he would be assisted and he told the comrades and they went to
clean the remains.
MR TLOUBATLA: Did you personally go and - I mean, did you go to his house to
go and clean that house?
MR HLASA: I did not got. I stayed behind because I was fixing a car, the clutch
plate was not functional.
MR TLOUBATLA: And do you know which people went to go and assist in the
cleaning of the house of Mr Lingani?
MR HLASA: I know some of them, Motlana, Spieu, Kanu and Kadelolelanga, the
brother to Jeff. Those were the members. I do not know who else was with them.
MR TLOUBATLA: Alright. So you remained behind, you were fixing your car
and what happened next?
MR HLASA: At about half past two to 3 o'clock if I remember very well, Nkolisi,
Speedo and Kabelo came to me. They told me that they had been to Jeff's place and
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now they were back to come and wash but they caught up with some members,
with some culprits and they were at the DOCC.
They told me that those people were kept at the DOCC, so I should rush to see
them, then we all left and we found them at Orlando at the DOCC building. We
took them and put them into the car. We had two cars, it was a Mazda and my car,
a Chevrolet and we drove with them to Orlando West to Jefferson Lingani's house.
They were told to get inside the house. I remember that I remained behind because
the car was dirty, so I had to clean off the oil. Now the comrades took them into
the house to ask them questions.
MR TLOUBATLA: How many people were - let's say, for the want of a better
word, kidnapped in that form?
MR HLASA: Six people, there were six.
MR TLOUBATLA: Aright, and then I think they were taken into the house. You
didn't personally go into the house and then what next happened?
MR HLASA: I did not personally go into the house but I know they were being
asked questions as to who burnt the house, on whose order, such questions. I did
not ask them anything but later on I heard that a decision had been taken that these
boys were members of SOSCO and they were present when the house was burnt
and we had to take them to Showela where they would be killed because a decision
had been taken already that, yes, we are being killed. Now as AZAPO, we will
have to kill as well.
MR TLOUBATLA: Just one second, don't rush. Do you know, do you personally
know why these boys had to be interrogated at Lingani's house? What was the
purpose of interrogating them there?
MR HLASA: It was to verify that they are members of the UDF and to find out
whether they took part in the burning of Jefferson's house. That was the main
reason for interrogating them, and to find out on whose order they committed that
act.
MR TLOUBATLA: Did you personally verify whether these people were UDF
members or SOSCO members, whatever organisation? Did you, on your personal
level, did you verify that?
MR HLASA: I had a lot of confidence in the people who were interrogating them.
I did not go in because I knew that I would not tolerate asking questions, that is
why I decided to wash a car. I left everything in the hands of those who were
asking questions. Jefferson was one of the leadership and I was sure that he would
come up with a decision based on who they were and it was verified that they were
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members of the UDF. The thing that I did not verify was whether they took part,
but yes, I verified that they were members of the UDF but about taking part, I did
not.
MR TLOUBATLA: So thereafter, I mean they were taken into a house, they were
interrogated, what happened next?
MR HLASA: Late, at about 5, 6 o'clock members of the leadership arrived and
they spoke to the people who conducted the interrogation to get the report from
them. At about 7 to 8 o'clock they said they must be taken and be killed. They said
we should choose our own place. We went to comrade Glen's house who was also
part of the leadership in Showela. ...[intervention]
ADV SIGODI: You mentioned that about 5 or 6 o'clock some members of the
leadership came and they spoke to the interrogators, do you know the names of
those members of the leadership who came?
MR HLASA: Yes, I remember. It was the late comrade Sam Siyema and the late
comrade Tammy Moglegwa.
ADV BOSMAN: Where were you when the leadership interrogated the victims?
MR HLASA: The interrogation took place inside the house. I was outside but in
the yard.
MR TLOUBATLA: So you remained ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just a minute. Did the leadership themselves interrogate
these people or did they just get a report from the people who had previously been
interrogating the victims?
MR HLASA: The leadership got a report but I have explained that the person
whose house was burnt was also part of the leadership. He was at the BLAKO, it
was a black ...[indistinct] union and he was in the leadership.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know, was he the only member in the leadership who
interrogated these people or did other members in the leadership also interrogate
them?
MR HLASA: He is not the only one, Kabelo Lingani was his brother and he was in
the National Executive of AZAZIM. I think he was the publicity secretary and part
of the branch leadership was also in charge.
CHAIRPERSON: Who said these people should be killed?
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MR HLASA: I would not exactly say who said that they must be killed but it was
the general understanding within the organisation that if we have verified that a
person has committed an act, we can deal with him in an appropriate way.
MR MALAN: Could you please explain this to me because you say the policy was
not even to retaliate and I think you say in your statement that at that day it became
clear to you that the policy was wrong and you decided to retaliate and now you
tell us it was a general understanding in the organisation that people should be deal
with. Can you explain that to me?
MR HLASA: These things happened in different time spans. There was an
understanding within the organisation that if you feel you are under pressure and
there are people who have done something wrong you can deal with them. But
later as the attacks continued, I remember comrade Montumeza in particular, he
said:
"We do not mean you should just, you shouldn't do
anything. If you are being attacked and you are in a
position to defend yourselves, do it. Defend yourselves
in a way that will suit you". Now I do not know who
took out an order on that day but the understanding was
already there, that you should defend yourselves in any
way possible.
MR MALAN: I'm not sure that I understand you. You made it clear to us that the
policy was, that defence was not to go out attacking but sit - I think you used the
word sit in the translation, and defend yourselves, that's why you got together and
stayed together not go out.
Now this instance, if I understand you correctly, you went out to find these people,
you took them to the house, interrogated them and then killed them. Isn't that very
different from the police?
MR HLASA: It's not true, we did not go out and look for them. Well, I was not
present when they were caught but I got a report that the comrades were moving
from Orlando West to got to Orlando East to go and wash and when they were at
the turnoff at DOCC they realised that they did not buy a newspaper on that day. It
was a normal thing to read a morning as well as an afternoon newspaper, so they
wanted to go to Orlando Police Station to buy a newspaper.
On their way towards the bottle store buying a paper, they recognised - that was
the report, comrade Jefferson recognised these six boys who were part of a group
that was singing in his area, that's how they were caught. We did not go out and
hunt them, they were caught because they were seen. It is not true that we went out
for them. That is how they were caught and they were interrogated and it was part
of our defence.
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CHAIRPERSON: You don't seem to understand the purpose of this question, I
must explain it to you. You see, there are two possibilities. The one possibility is
that you acted in killing these people, you did so without getting instructions or
authority from your leadership.
The other possibility is that you got such instructions from the leadership, so really,
either you got instructions from the leadership on that particular day to kill those
people or you didn't. And the question is, if you did get orders or instructions or the
go-ahead from your leadership to kill them, who were those people, who were
those people in the leadership who told you to kill these people?
MR HLASA: The leadership did not say to us: "Kill", but I have explained that
there were negotiations that failed. Now the leadership compromised and said we
should defend ourselves in any way possible so that the organisation may go on
with its activities.
On the day of this particular incident, I explained already that I was not part of the
people who interrogated the victims. The understanding that I got from the
comrades who were inside the house was that these people were going to be killed.
I had faith in my comrades, I knew that they would not take such a decision
without the concern of the leadership. Maybe the people who were inside might be
in a position to give a better explanation.
I'm saying it was a general decision but they might put it specifically, who gave
orders because I was not inside.
CHAIRPERSON: Was there a general anger following the attack on Mr Lingani's
house?
MR HLASA: Yes, but when these people were caught emotions were a little bit
down.
CHAIRPERSON: But was there still some anger?
MR HLASA: Yes, anger is anger. We wondered what was it that these people
wanted from us, it wasn't an avenge.
CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it so that right from the beginning when you people went
out to go and interrogate these people, the general feeling was simply that: "Well,
today we are going to kill these people"?
MR HLASA: No, it wasn't our feeling. We interrogated them to verify as to
whether they were present and they took part in the burning of the house and
whether they were members of SOSCO and on whose command they committed
the act. After the interrogation it was discovered that they were members of UDF
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and then the decision was taken to revenge as members of AZAPO so that in future
no-one attacks us, no-one takes an advantage of us.
CHAIRPERSON: Well you say the decision was taken but that's what
Commissioner Malan asked you, who took that decision?
MR HLASA: I explained that the leadership came but I do not know who among
the leadership took out such an order. I was outside fixing a car.
CHAIRPERSON: So you answer is that you personally Mr Hlasa, you don't know
who took that decision, except to say that it was the leadership?
MR HLASA: That's my answer.
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Hlasa, who conveyed to you that these people had to be
killed, do you remember?
MR HLASA: Kani told me to start the ignition of the car because we were going to
Showela to kill these people.
CHAIRPERSON: We're not asking you who asked you to start the ignition of the
car. Committee Member Bosman's question has nothing to do with the ignition of
the car, she simply asked you: "Who told you that these people had to be killed"?
MR HLASA: It's Ikaneng.
CHAIRPERSON: Please try to speak to the questions which are being put to you,
thank you.
MR MALAN: May I just ask here again, you say that what was verified was that
they were members of UDF but do I understand you correctly that it wasn't verified
that they were indeed part of the group and it wasn't verified that they burnt the
house, simply that they were members of UDF?
MR HLASA: I was talking for myself because I asked a question: "Guys, are you
sure these are members of the UDF"?, then it was confirmed but I was not sure as
to whether they were part of the group that burnt the house.
ADV BOSMAN: Why were you not sure Mr Hlasa? What worried you that you
asked that question?
MR HLASA: I did not interrogate people, I was outside. When I asked the
question, the question was directed to a comrade who was coming outside. I asked
a comrade a question.
ADV BOSMAN: Why did you then not ask him whether they took part in the
burning of the house? I mean, that was really the important question to ask.
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MR HLASA: I did not want to know whether they took part in the burning of the
house, I wanted to verify that they were members of the UDF so that we can set an
example with the members of the UDF. Not that I was acting because they took
part in the burning of the house, I was acting because they were members of the
UDF and it was the UDF that we were fighting.
ADV BOSMAN: So if you were told that they had not taken part in the burning of
the house, would you still have killed them to make an example of them? Did you
understand the question?
MR HLASA: I understand your question. As long as we had a confirmation that
they were members of the UDF, that was fine. The conflict between these two
groups was not about what you did, it was about belonging to the other
organisation. Now it wasn't the main issue. The burning of the house was not the
main issue, the main issue was being members of the UDF.
MR MALAN: Mr Hlasa, I'm not sure that I understand you again. You say you
killed them simply because they were members of the UDF, it was a question of
which organisation?
MR HLASA: I'm now telling you about my participation in the killing of these
people.
MR MALAN: Let me just take it further from that. Are you saying that you were
killing UDF members and UDF members were generally killing AZAPO members,
was that the conflict?
MR HLASA: That is what I mean.
MR MALAN: And were you part of that conflict?
MR HLASA: That is correct, I was.
MR MALAN: Was this the first killing or were you involved in other killings?
MR HLASA: This was the first to kill a person but it was not the first to defend the
comrades in other areas. We went out to places such as Randfontein, Dlamini and
Alexandra and there would be a shootout. I don't know whether people died in
those incidents but I do not remember handling people in the way we did with
these ones.
MR MALAN: And then, just a last question. Did you ever find out who gave them
the instructions to burn the house? You said you wanted to find out were they part
of the UDF, were they part of the group that burnt the house and on whose
instructions. That was the major theme of the interrogation, so did you ever find
out who they got their instructions from?
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MR HLASA: I did not find out, I don't know whether other comrades did. I have
testified already that I did not interrogate them, I only verified that they were
members of the UDF.
MR MALAN: No, but if I heard you correctly you said you didn't go in with the
interrogation because you were, you felt that you wouldn't be able even to tolerate
and that's why you stayed outside, because of your anger. You weren't waiting on
the outside to just get a report, you were so angry that you clearly wanted to kill
them, if I understand your evidence correct, you wanted them to be killed, that's
why you didn't ask for any further information, simply that they were members of
the UDF, isn't that so?
MR HLASA: That is not so, I did not wait outside because of anger. I was cleaning
the car because it was full of oil. It's not anger that made me stay outside. I said I
did not even want to get inside to interrogate them because I knew they were
involved and I would not stand what was going to be said inside. I cannot say my
attitude was similar to that of other comrades.
MR MALAN: This is a new development, you say you knew that they were
involved. You didn't even want to interrogate them because you knew they were
involved, is that what you're telling us?
MR HLASA: That is not what I want to tell you. If I discovered that they were
members of the UDF, I didn't get in because I knew that if I discovered that they
were members of the UDF something would have happened.
MR MALAN: I heard the translation saying: you didn't go, you were cleaning the
oil and you didn't go in because you knew that they were involved, you had no
need of the interrogation, you knew they were involved
MR HLASA: No.
MR MALAN: That is what the interpreter said to us.
MR HLASA: I did not go inside because I was washing a car outside, that is the
first reason. The second reason, I was avoiding the fact that if I discovered that
these were members of the UDF, that was going to make me very furious, that is
my reason.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Mr Hlasa, you also told the Committee that much as this was your first killing or
an incident where people were killed, nevertheless you were involved in some
other incidents where you had to protect your members. Can you - you spoke about
Randfontein, Alexandra and I think Dlamini or something. At Dlamini, I mean at
Randfontein, who were you defending and what happened there?
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MR HLASA: We had our comrades there, comrade Xlomiso was the then
President and they used to phone us and tell us that we're being attacked and we
would go and assist. Every time when we arrived we would find them in a group
and the members of the UDF would come and fight us and we would defend
ourselves. That is an incident in Randfontein.
There is yet another incident at comrade Jeff's place in Moletsani. We defended a
house that was going to be burnt because members of SOSCO arrived and they
found people inside the house, it was ourselves. I do not know whether they were
many. We shot and they dispersed.
In Alexandra we went to comrade James Chauke's house. There was fighting and
we defended the house. After we had left they came back and burnt the house. I
think the comrades were weakening just after we left.
MR TLOUBATLA: In these incidents where you were defending these properties
or the lives of these people, what used to happen? Was there just a shootout in the
streets? You know, you are just simply saying you went there, you defended, I just
want the specifics. How did the defence go about?
MR HLASA: We received a telephone call from Alexandra. Sometimes
information would leak that tonight there's going to be an attack, then we went to
Alexandra and we stayed at James Chauke's house and they arrived at night and we
had firearms. We would not even wait for them to arrive at the house, we would
shoot just to repel them. I did not aim because I was not trained in the use of
firearms, we would just shoot so that they run away. This also happened Kabelo
Lingani's home in Moletsani. If there is anyone who was injured I do not know but
we shot. I shot until the magazine was empty and they wall ran away.
MR TLOUBATLA: That is before this particular incident, was the general pattern
that you adopted? You waylaid them in a specific house and they would come and
then you'd start shooting, was that the general pattern you followed?
MR HLASA: Yes. When we had information we would be in a position to defend
the house. If we didn't get information the house would be burnt or people would
die.
CHAIRPERSON: Were there many such incidents which occurred when you had
some confrontation with members of UDF and its affiliates?
MR HLASA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And in some instances, was property damaged and/or people
killed?
MR HLASA: Yes, property was destroyed in many instances.
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CHAIRPERSON: And did some of these incidents take place before the killing of
the victims, of your victims?
MR HLASA: All these activities took place before the incident that brings me
here.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you see the burning of Lingani's house as part of the
continuous conflict between AZAPO and UDF and its affiliates?
MR HLASA: That is correct, it was a continuation of the conflict.
MR TLOUBATLA: Before I even continue, you personally and your family, were
you ever affected by this, by the violence?
MR HLASA: Yes. My mother relocated to East Rand, she left Soweto.
MR TLOUBATLA: What had happened when your mother was compelled to
leave Soweto to the East Rand?
MR HLASA: She was afraid of the attacks and the harassment from the Security
Branch.
MR TLOUBATLA: These attacks or counter attacks on each other, did they
always invariably happen at night or did some of the incidents happen during the
day?
MR HLASA: Many of them happened at night but I remember there was an
incident that took place at Sinawani during the day, it was around 4 or 5 o'clock.
MR TLOUBATLA: That incident, what happened at that incident that happened
during the day at four?
MR HLASA: We had a meeting at St Hilda's Church and they came to attack us.
Fortunately we had firearms and we defended ourselves, we shot and they ran
away.
MR TLOUBATLA: When you say you shot when you defended yourself, you
mean you shot, I mean you fired shots at their direction and they ran away?
MR HLASA: We shot at their direction.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then, this incident, although it happened during the day,
didn't the police intervene or something, let's say this specific one at St Hilda's
Church?
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MR HLASA: The police didn't even arrive. I think the uniformed police were
aware of the situation and they were afraid of coming in but the security branch
used to come into such situations.
MR TLOUBATLA: Let's go back now to this incident at Lingani's house. The
interrogation, you say you didn't participate in the interrogation of these boys
personally, but do you know how the interrogation was conducted? Did you get
information thereafter how the interrogation was conducted?
MR HLASA: I do not know.
MR TLOUBATLA: And thereafter, after the interrogation had stopped, your
leadership had come in, what happened, where did you go?
MR HLASA: We put them in two cars and we drove to Showela at comrade Glen's
house who was part of the leadership at that time. From comrade Glen's house they
were taken in two groups. The first group, I was in the first group even though I do
not remember who the members of the first group were. We left with them and we
went to the veld. That's ...[intervention]
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa, I just want to find out something. When you
transported these people, Jeff's or Lingani's place, were is it and where did you
travel to?
MR HLASA: Jefferson Lingani's house is in Orlando West. We left Orlando West
for Showela.
MR TLOUBATLA: And the distance, what kind of distance are we talking of
between Lingani's house and Showela?
MR HLASA: Plus minus 10 kilometres.
MR TLOUBATLA: Fine. When these people were ...[indistinct] I mean, I suppose
that you were the owner of one of the cars in which they were travelling or they
were transported, you probably must have seen these boys when they were put into
your car, is that so?
MR HLASA: Yes, I saw them.
MR TLOUBATLA: Did they look normal or were they injured, were they
bleeding, were they crying, what was the, how were they?
MR HLASA: It looked like they've been assaulted.
MR TLOUBATLA: Alright, and then from Lingani's house where did you go to?
MR HLASA: Went to comrade Glen's house in Showela.
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MR TLOUBATLA: Right. On your arrival there, what did you do? Did the
interrogation continue, what happened when you arrived at the destination?
MR HLASA: There was a caucus and it was discussed, the way forward and it was
decided that they should be killed immediately because it was already late.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then amongst yourselves ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]
INTERPRETER: The Chairperson's mike was not on.
CHAIRPERSON: Where is the caucus taking place, is it at Glen's house or
somewhere else?
MR TLOUBATLA: At which house did you go?
MR HLASA: The caucus was at Glen's house. I think we were in the kitchen and
they were in the dining room.
CHAIRPERSON: Why to Glen's house, why were they taken to Glen's house?
MR HLASA: I do not remember, but what I do remember is that Glen was one of
the leadership.
CHAIRPERSON: What position did he hold?
MR HLASA: He was in BLAKO as well.
ADV BOSMAN: What was your position at the time Mr Hlasa?
MR HLASA: I did not have any position, I was just a member.
ADV BOSMAN: I think in you application ...[intervention]
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.
ADV BOSMAN: In your application if I remember correctly, you say that you
were a general commander? If you can just go to page 1. It says there:
"State capacity in which you served in the organisation"
and I see you qualified there saying:
"From 1990"
So at that time you had no position, is that correct?
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MR HLASA: I did not have a position as yet. I was still inside the country and that
was in 1986.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask, when I asked of Glen's position in the leadership you
said he was a member of something, what did you say?
MR HLASA: BLAKO. Black General Workers Union.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it affiliated to AZAPO?
MR HLASA: Yes, it was.
CHAIRPERSON: And firstly, what position did he hold, do you know?
MR HLASA: I do not remember, I only remember Jefferson Lingani's position. He
was the Labour Secretary of AZAPO.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we were at a point where you said you caucused there at
Glen's house and then a decision was taken that it was getting late, these people
should be killed.
MR HLASA: That's what I said. We then left to search for a sport where they
would be killed.
MR TLOUBATLA: Yes, can you proceed then, what happened?
MR HLASA: We came back and we took the first group of three. I had explained
already that I do not know their names. We left with them and we went to the veld
outside Showela. We were three and they were three, each one of us shot one of
them. I do not remember among the people we shot, who it is exactly because I
was told later that two of them survived. We went back to the house and the second
group left with the remaining three.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you in this first group who took out the deceased?
MR HLASA: Yes, I was in the first group.
CHAIRPERSON: You must tell us what happened there at the scene.
MR HLASA: We loaded them in the boot of the car and we drove to the spot and
we parked the car next to the house and we offloaded them. We had guns, each one
of us had his own gun and we took one, one from them and then we went up the
hill and we made them stand on the edge and we shot them there and they fell. We
left them and we drove back and we gave guns to the other comrades and they took
the next group. I wouldn't know then what happened with the second group.
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MR TLOUBATLA: In your first group, with whom were you?
MR HLASA: I do not remember very well who the members of the first group
were. I remember that I was in the first group and I was driving but I know that the
people who shot was myself, Matlana, Kani, Speedo. I do not remember the others.
I remember the ones I've mentioned, I don't just remember in which groups we
were.
CHAIRPERSON: You know Mr Hlasa, you want amnesty but you must remember
that there's a price you pay for getting amnesty if you are to get it. You've got to
tell us in particular what your role was in a particular incident.
I notice that you have the tendency of speaking in general, you have a tendency of
not telling us what you did. In your evidence you keep on saying this: "We did
this, we took the people to Glen's house, we took them out of the car, we took them
to the hill, we shot them, we went back, that is not good enough. If you - you know
for you to get amnesty, you have to embarrass yourself by publically telling us of
the horrible things you did, then so be it. That is the price you must pay if you are
to get amnesty.
And if these people have to know about the horrible things you did as an individual
then so be it, then people must hear about what you, Hlasa as an individual did.
You can't keep on using a general language and say: "We took people into the
car, we took them to the hill, we turned back". That is not good enough for the
purpose of these proceedings. You must tell us what you did, do you understand?
For one, I don't think that it was just a question of we taking them out of Glen's
house, you must have dragged them, pushed them and they said: "No, please don't,
it's not us who did this", you said: "No, we are going to kill you anyway" and they
tried to resist, we took them out, we opened the boot, one of them did not want to
get in, we kicked him in his stomach, we pushed him", why don't you tell us these
things? We are here to hear those things.
You can't just come here and say: "We took people out of the house, we put them
into the boot of the car, we took them to the hill, we shot, we came back and
another group went off. They took them there, they shot them and they came back.
I'm beginning to have serious problems with the way you are giving evidence. You
must give us details of what you did, make a full disclosure. Didn't they tell you
that you must make a full disclosure if you want amnesty? You should please do
that, it is the price you pay for getting amnesty. Do you understand?
Now, these people you had taken to Glen's house, the caucus that they be killed,
what happened? And you must lay emphasis on your personal participation.
MR HLASA: I think I am telling the truth because when we took these people
there was no resistance, we had guns and it was evident to them that if they resisted
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we would shoot them. They did not know that they were going to be killed. We
pointed the guns at them and told them we are going to such a place and they
cooperated because we had guns.
When we left comrade Glen's house to take them to a spot where they would be
killed we pointed the guns at them, they did not just freely walk. We pointed the
guns at them, we loaded them into the boot and they realised that there was no
chance of running away. I don't know what was in their minds. I explained that we
left and then we reached the identified spot. I would not lie and say I was with so
and so.
I remember the people who took part in the shooting but I would not remember
who was with me. I don't want to make a mistake of naming someone who was not
with me. I know I shot. Gabie, Speedo and Motlana shot. I do not remember
because this happened a long time ago, 1986. I only remember ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just a minute, you are a little bit too fast. You say you
shot who and who?
MR HLASA: Myself, Ganie, Speedo and Motlana. Speedo is Mr Thandakubona
and Mr Ikaneng.
CHAIRPERSON: So those are the people you went with?
MR HLASA: Yes, these are the people I was with but I know one of them was not
in the car driven by myself but I do not remember well who it was.
CHAIRPERSON: I got only two names, Ganie, Motlana and did you mention
another name?
MR HLASA: Mr Thandakubona.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR HLASA: We went up the hill and I shot one of them and I shot him once. The
comrades with me shot once and they fell and we went back.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa, I just want to find out, when you were caucusing at
Glen's house, what is it that you were specifically caucusing about?
MR HLASA: The caucus was about what to do. The decision was already taken
that they be killed but we had to find a spot and plan our movement. The first car
was supposed to take three of them and they be killed, come back, then firearms be
handed over to the next three so that they can also do their part.
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ADV BOSMAN: Mr Hlasa, when the first person was shot you went back alone
and surely the other two must have heard that shot and they must have seen that the
person was not with you anymore?
MR HLASA: We made them stand on the edge next to each other and then we
stood behind them and we shot. I did not shoot an leave. I shot him, he fell, the
next one shot, he fell and the third one shot and the third person. All of them were
lying down there. We did not go to confirm whether they were dead, we just took it
that they were dead and we came back.
ADV BOSMAN: Sorry, I misunderstood you the first time, sorry.
MR TLOUBATLA: Alright, I think the question - perhaps just to take it further,
coming back you had taken people out and now you are coming back and those
people are no longer in your company, that is the victims. What was the reaction of
the other victims, the ones that had been left behind? How did they take that?
MR HLASA: We were asked whether we shot them and we responded: "Yes" and
it was decided who are the next three to go: "take your guns, go" and that was that.
MR TLOUBATLA: Perhaps you don't understand my question. Basically I want
the reaction of the victims, not your comrades or your friends.
MR HLASA: I would not know their reaction but I already told you that the
comrades were in the kitchen and they were in the dining room and they did not
know that the three of us went with the three of them. We were in separate rooms. I
would not know what their reactions were.
CHAIRPERSON: So did you yourself speak to any one of these victims at any
time?
MR HLASA: When we arrived at Glen's house it was not necessary really to speak
to them but it was to inform that: "Even though you do not give us information you
are going to shit". That is what I told them.
MR TLOUBATLA: You were carrying about three people in your car when you
drove to Glen's house, how did you, in the first place, where were they, were they
in the boot as you were travelling to Glen's house and how did you take them into
the house itself?
MR HLASA: They were in the boot. We drove the car into the yard and we opened
the boot and they got out of the boot and into the house.
CHAIRPERSON: How many people were in your boot?
MR HLASA: ...[end of tape]
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CHAIRPERSON: ...[start of new tape]
MR HLASA: It was a Chevrolet 4.1
CHAIRPERSON: Did they all manage to fit into the boot?
MR HLASA: Yes, they had no choice.
CHAIRPERSON: And before shooting them, from Glen's house right up to the
point where they were shot, did you personally speak to any one of them?
MR HLASA: I did not say anything specific to them, I just told them to tell us the
truth. If they were not telling us the truth they were going to shit. That's what I told
them if I remember well.
CHAIRPERSON: So up the hill there you did not, before shooting, you did not say
anything to anyone of them?
MR HLASA: Nothing Sir, I did not say anything.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you personally assault any one of these victims?
MR HLASA: No-one Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Not even once?
MR HLASA: Not even once.
CHAIRPERSON: You never touched any one of them?
MR HLASA: I did not touch one of them.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloublata, would this be the appropriate stage to adjourn
until 2 o'clock?
MR TLOUBATLA: I think so Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll adjourn until 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: (s.u.o.)
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MR TLOUBATLA: We were at a point when you told us that you shot these
people and then they fell down a ravine or something like that and then after
shooting these people what did you do?
MR HLASA: We went back to Glen's house and we reported that we shot them
and the second group took over. I explained already that they were six in number.
We took the first three and our fellow comrades took the last three.
MR TLOUBATLA: During the lunch adjournment I was consulting with
Thandakubona and then he mentioned that he personally didn't participate in the
shooting itself, he was involved but nevertheless the shooting in itself he was not
there, what do you say to that?
MR HLASA: I said this took place in 1986 and many things happened thereafter, I
would not perfectly remember everybody who was there but according to my
recollection I thought he was there. I would not refute that we took part in different
ways.
MR TLOUBATLA: The firearms that you were using, who supplied those
firearms?
MR HLASA: Some of the firearms we bought. I remember well, it was in the
morning of the burial of comrade Khomezulu. I was not there, we went to the East
Rand to fetch the firearms. ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry to interrupt you, the gun that you used that day, they're
asking about the gun you used that day, where did you get it from?
MR HLASA: The firearm that I had with me had been in my possession for quite
some time and I think it was bought in East Rand. There is another one that was
taken from a security guy that was shot in Orlando. I do not remember where the
others came from but we bought most of them.
MR TLOUBATLA: Can you just sit back a little bit, just sit back because you are
disturbing the mike, sit back. What I want to know is, alright, they were bought,
were they bought by yourself or somebody within the organisation supplied the
firearms, that's what I want to know.
MR HLASA: People were assigned and given tasks within the organisation, that
you and somebody else will go and find us firearms. If I remember well, two of the
comrades that have applied for amnesty were given the task of getting the guns.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla, I don't know if there is a misunderstanding
between your client and the interpreter. A pertinent question has been asked: "The
firearm that you used to shoot, you personally, the firearm that you used that day,
where did you get it from"? And then he answered to say that he had been having
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that firearm for a long time before that, but that doesn't tell us where you got the
firearm from. The questions still stands: "Where did you get the firearm from that
you used that day"? Where did you get it from?
MR TLOUBATLA: Who gave it to you?
MR HLASA: The firearms that we used were the property of the organisation. It
was not mine per se, it belonged to the organisation. I know of the firearms that
were disarmed from the security personnel. Some were bought in East Rand. I have
explained already that when we arrived on the morning of Khomezulu's burial we
were out to buy firearms, that cannot be an individual's property.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that your answer to the question?
MR HLASA: Yes, that is my answer.
MR TLOUBATLA: Perhaps just to clarify it a little bit, you say the firearms were
bought, did you have money, did you take out money from your pocket to go and
buy those firearms or did somebody give the money so that these firearms could be
purchased?
MR HLASA: Branches collected money and bought firearms, each branch would
collect money for its own defence. These were not individuals firearms, they
rotated.
MR TLOUBATLA: So the firearms ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Tloubatla. What kind of weapon did you shoot your
victim with, was it a pistol or a revolver or an AK47?
MR HLASA: It was a pistol.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to ask you for the last time, where did you get that
pistol from?
MR HLASA: I would not specifically say I got it from somebody but I do
remember firearms were bought for the organisation.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you get it from the Dutch Reformed Church?
MR HLASA: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, where did you get it from Sir?
MR HLASA: We took the firearms from the organisation.
CHAIRPERSON: Which organisation?
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MR HLASA: AZAPO.
CHAIRPERSON: Why should we have such a great difficulty in simply getting
from you: "Where did you get the weapon you used from"? "I got it from
AZAPO". Mr Tloubatla?
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
And then, after using the firearms, who was responsible for the safekeeping of the
firearms or did you keep them with you individually? What happened with the
firearms?
MR HLASA: We kept them individually but if there was anything in Alexandra,
maybe a problem, we would borrow them to other people but you'd know exactly
who you lent your firearm to.
MR TLOUBATLA: Alright.
ADV BOSMAN: One moment please Mr Tloubatla.
Mr Hlasa, did you regularly carry a firearm with you?
MR HLASA: Regularly I had a firearm.
ADV BOSMAN: And the particular firearm you used on this day, how long had it
been in your possession?
MR HLASA: It was quite some time. I took part in many incidents, I think three or
four incidents if I remember but it had been a long time having that gun with me.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.
MR MALAN: May I just ask, can you remember who you gave the gun to when
the other three went out? You say you handed them the firearms, the second group,
and then they went out to kill the other three. My question is -it seems you're not
getting the drift of it, if I heard you correctly you said that after the killing of the
three, when you returned you reported and you gave the firearms to the other three
and they went and they killed the next three people.
MR HLASA: I think I did not hand my gun, it was with me. When we arrived I
think comrade Kabelo and comrade Mxolisi Thandakubona went to Dlamini to
look for other firearms and when we arrived, they had returned already.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa, just to take you slightly back, besides the leadership
of the two organisations, that is UDF and AZAPO, were any other efforts to try
and quell this conflict that was existing between the two organisations? Were there
other efforts from the community?
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MR HLASA: I remember a Priest such as Reverend Siwoka, they tried to intervene
in this violence but they did not succeed.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa, I have got a press cutting here which says - it is
dated April 1986, The Sowetan, and therein they're saying:
"Priest in Bid to end Conflict: Clerics on the Westrand
yesterday said they were trying to end a bloody conflict
between members of, affiliates of the United
Democratic Front and the Black Consciousness
Movement".
I would like you to look at this, would this be part of the efforts that would be
waged by the Priest to try and quell this conflict?
MR HLASA: I think it's one of them because it refers to the situation in Bekkersdal
and Randfontein. Those were the two areas which were violent.
MR TLOUBATLA: Alright, I also have ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Tloubatla, is there a date on that publication?
MR TLOUBATLA: On the publication, yes, it's The Sowetan of 1986, April 1986.
CHAIRPERSON: Shouldn't we have it as an Exhibit?
MR TLOUBATLA: Ja, definitely the - but even though I was intending to make
copies and a bundle for the Committee, so that when I am addressing then I'm
going to hand it in.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, other people may want to use it during cross-examination.
MR TLOUBATLA: It can be taken in, it can be used yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So we'll have it as Exhibit A.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Sir.
I have got another publication, it's: Die Burger dated the 29th November 1986. It
says:
"Four members of the student council in Soweto who
are affiliated to the UDF were yesterday by a interdict of
the Witwatersrand Supreme Court prohibited to attack
the Secretary General of AZAPO, Mr George Oukop, or
to damage his property" ...[transcriber's own translation]
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You mentioned Mr Oukop in your evidence repeatedly, is that, was this arising
also out of the conflict that you had with the other organisations?
MR HLASA: This is written in Afrikaans and I did not quite understand it.
MR TLOUBATLA: Well, it simply says that Mr Oukop obtained an interdict in
the Witwatersrand local division of the Supreme Court to interdict some people
from either assaulting him or destroying his property, that is people affiliated to the
UDF.
MR HLASA: I remember that, it referred to Kenneth Fitla and them.
CHAIRPERSON: That will be Exhibit B.
MR TLOUBATLA: I also would like to refer you to The Star of 9 June 1986 and
then the interview was given by, in fact it's Bishop Desmond Tutu who was quoted
at the funeral of Mr Delisa Matjoba and he was also condemning the violence
between the two organisations, that is AZAPO and the UDF affiliated
organisations. That is The Star of June 1986.
MR HLASA: It is not only in this article, Bishop Tutu has many articles where he
pleaded that the black on black violence stop because it was senseless.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he also referring to the conflict between BCM and UDF?
MR HLASA: Yes, he was referring to that.
CHAIRPERSON: We will it as Exhibit C.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then Mr Chairman, I would refer to two more
publications, they others I'll use during my address to the Committee. This was a
Sowetan publication of Tuesday, May the 27th of 1986 and apparently The
Sowetan undertook a survey:
"In a snap survey the man in the street yesterday
appealed for peace between the warring political groups
in the black community. The appeal comes in the wake
of an alarming increase in violence between the UDF
and the Azanian People's Organisation and Inkatha"
Are they referring to the type of conflict that was, that is this particular publication,
is it referring to the type of conflict that you both had, that is AZAPO and the
UDF?
MR HLASA: Look at the date, it is May 27th, it was at the time when violence was
very strong in Soweto. Yes, I agree with this article.
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MR TLOUBATLA: And then I have here also a publication that is The Weekly
Mail dated the 18th of December 1986, do you know the late Mr Mhieza?
MR HLASA: Yes, I know him very well.
MR TLOUBATLA: And at that time, what position did he hold in your
organisation, that is AZAPO?
MR HLASA: He was the National Publicity Secretary.
MR TLOUBATLA: I'm going to read from The Weekly Mail of the 18th of
December 1986 and I'm quoting one of the paragraph there. It says:
"Mhieza says AZAPO has its own code of conduct
which all our members subscribe to and deviances are
viewed in a serious light, however where and when the
need arises for our members to defend themselves, their
family and property, they should do so with means
commensurate with the danger they apprehend"
I've just quoted from what Mr Mhieza said, that was in December 1986. You spoke
about ...[intervention]
MR HLASA: Can you please repeat, I did not understand what you said?
MR TLOUBATLA: Mhieza says:
"AZAPO has its own code of conduct which all our
members subscribe to and deviances are viewed in a
serious light, however where and when the need arises
for our members to defend themselves, their family and
property, they should do so with means commensurate
with the danger they apprehend"
Did you get it now?
MR HLASA: Yes, that is correct, he once mentioned that. I mentioned earlier on
that the organisation's positions was not to retaliate but if we were under pressure
we were supposed to defend ourselves according to the situation.
CHAIRPERSON: That would be Exhibit E I guess.
MR TLOUBATLA: According to the publication, that publication came, I mean
that statement was in December 1986 and the incident that we are talking about
now occurred in August 1986. Can you perhaps explain when that type of order
was given?
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MR HLASA: I do not remember but within the organisation we knew already that
if we were being attacked we were supposed to defend ourselves, but I wouldn't
specifically know when the order was issued out. The newspapers say it was
December.
MR TLOUBATLA: Alright, ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla, can you ask your assistant to take those copies of
the Exhibits and circulate them to Mr Ameen please?
MR TLOUBATLA: Let's say the general order now that I'm talking about where
you are called upon to defend yourself and property, how was it communicated to
you? Let's say to you personally, were you called aside in one private room and
told that this is what the organisation wants or expects of you? How were such
orders communicated to you?
MR HLASA: Individuals were not called. Such people planned that in meetings
and took out their feelings about the violence.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa, the act of killing those young boys, for whatever
reason it was, that they had destroyed your comrade's property or threatened his
life, do you think under the circumstances that the act itself, was it warranted, was
it commensurate with what they had done?
MR HLASA: I have explained already that their acts were piling up until such time
that we decided to take an action. We never thought that violence would go as far
as Orlando.
ADV BOSMAN: You said that their acts were piling up, who do you mean, these
boy's acts?
MR HLASA: ...[inaudible]
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike was not activated.
MR HLASA: Yes, I'm referring to the acts conducted by the UDF.
ADV BOSMAN: And not the boys that were killed?
MR HLASA: No, not the boys, acts conducted by the UDF and not particularly
these boys.
MR TLOUBATLA: Do you know Mr Hlasa that for you to be granted amnesty
that your act must be politically motivated, in other words there must be a political
motivation. What political motivation was in this act that you conducted? What did
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you hope to achieve in terms of, politically, that is your organisation and your
members?
MR HLASA: I was hoping to send forth the message to the members of the UDF
that we can also defend ourselves, that was point number one. Point number two, if
we were able to protect our members then our organisation was going grow. If we
have members and we don't defend them they became disillusioned and resign. We
were protecting our organisation to grow like any other organisation. We wanted to
exist freely, we wanted to practice our political right freely. We were sending the
message.
ADV BOSMAN: In what way did you make it clear that it was the AZAPO people
who had killed these boys? How did the community know it was an AZAPO
murder?
MR HLASA: The community would not know it was AZAPO but we know that
the UDF was going to know that AZAPO killed them. I can give an example with
Fana Umshlongo who was kidnapped and killed. We did not scratch our heads, we
knew that he was kidnapped by the UDF, he was killed by the UDF but it was hard
luck for the community to know but those were lucky enough would have known.
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Hlasa, I don't understand, you said that you also intended to
let your membership grow, now certainly your membership would come from
members of the community? Did you know think that the community should know
about this in order to impress them to become AZAPO members?
MR HLASA: We used to go out to the communities and lay before them the
political objectives of AZAPO. When we recruited people we did not tell them
about UDF, we told them about the aims and objectives of AZAPO. If people had
joined us already it was difficult to fully identify themselves with us because of
this violence that even appeared in the newspapers, the conflict between AZAPO
and UDF. So it was important for us to protect our organisation and its growth.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Mr Hlasa, how many - I mean, after how many days were you arrested after the
killing of these boys?
MR HLASA: I do not remember, I think two or three days thereafter. I was
arrested two or three days thereafter and I was sent to Morroka Police Station.
MR TLOUBATLA: Alright. When did you go into exile?
MR HLASA: After appearing at the Protea Magistrate's Court we were sent to the
Johannesburg Central Prison for about a week and the South African Council of
Churches helped us with bail, we were bailed out and we skipped the country. It
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was myself - it was after three weeks when this happened, it was myself Motlana,
Jeff and Thandakubona, we skipped the country for exile.
MR TLOUBATLA: Who assisted you into going into exile and what was the
reason for that?
MR HLASA: Let's put it that way, AZAPO assisted us to go into exile. The reason
for that was that when we were arrested at Protea the case was regarded as a
criminal case and the organisation felt that it was difficult for them to rescue its
members and we had to go. It was a choice of an individual whether you wanted to
go or not and we expressed our feeling of leaving and then we left this country.
MR TLOUBATLA: Did you join any organisation when you were in exile?
MR HLASA: Yes, we joined the Black Consciousness Movement of Azania.
MR TLOUBATLA: Can you describe what you, I mean your activities when you
were in exile?
MR HLASA: We arrived at different times in Botswana. I think I arrived much
later than the two comrades who have applied and I went to Dukwe in the camps
and many comrades were there and I participated in the activities or the
organisation. I remember before I was trained I was the Secretary of Welfare. I was
actually looking at the welfare of the comrades and later on I went to Zimbabwe
...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute. Did you - during your exile, did you at all times
take part in the programmes of the BCM and were you an active member of BCM?
MR HLASA: Yes, I was the Secretary of the Welfare and later ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Just answer my question. During the whole period while you
were in exile, were you a member of a political organisation until you came back?
MR HLASA: Yes, that's correct.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
And then into the country, when did you come back to the country, into the
country? When did you come back?
MR HLASA: When I finally came back - I don't understand your question clearly,
but when I finally came back it was in 1994. It was in September of 1994.
MR TLOUBATLA: You also mentioned something about training, did you
undergo any military training when you were abroad?
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MR HLASA: Yes, I received a military training. I spent 11 months in Libya, 1989
until early January. After 11 months I went back to Zimbabwe.
MR TLOUBATLA: So you were at all times in the organisation, in your
organisation?
MR HLASA: All the time.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman, I think that will be all unless there is something
specific that the Chairman would like me to perhaps elicit from the witness.
CHAIRPERSON: At the time of the incident, was he a member of AZAPO?
MR TLOUBATLA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: For how long before this incident had you been a member of
AZAPO?
MR HLASA: Before this Showela incident, it had been a year and a half.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
Mr Ameen, what do you plan? Do you want to defer your cross-examination?
MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman, I would like to defer my cross-examination. I just
want to know, would the other two be giving evidence as well, the other two
applicants?
CHAIRPERSON: That is true.
MR AMEEN: I suggest that they be allowed to give their evidence and then I'll
cross-examine all of them if we could finish that by the end of today Mr
Chairperson.
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Hlasa, how old were you at the time of the incident?
MR HLASA: I was 22 years old.
ADV BOSMAN: And what was your level of education?
MR HLASA: JC.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.
ADV SIGODI: And what was your occupation, were you employed or were you
unemployed?
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MR HLASA: No, I was not, I was in the organisation.
MR MALAN: Sorry, were you full time in the organisation at the time of this
incident, is this what you're saying to us?
MR HLASA: Yes, it was the early stage of the formation of the youth of Azania.
MR MALAN: So what was your responsibility?
MR HLASA: I was responsible for organising, I was working under the Organising
Committee.
MR MALAN: So were you appointed organiser of AZAPO?
MR HLASA: Yes, for the branch.
MR MALAN: Did they pay you?
MR HLASA: No.
MR MALAN: Where did you get your livelihood from?
MR HLASA: I was still under the care of my parents.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say you did not know any of the six people?
MR HLASA: Even today I do not know them, I only saw their names on the papers
this morning. Well, I did not care much to look them in the newspapers.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, do you prefer to put questions before Mr Ameen?
MR BRINK: ...[inaudible]
CHAIRPERSON: Well put questions if you want to.
MR BRINK: I've just got one Mr Chairman, it depends on the answer, maybe two
or three.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK: I wonder if you can tell me please Mr
Hlasa, am I correct in understanding your
evidence that Ikaneng Nani took part in the interrogation of these youths?
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MR HLASA: Yes, Nadi took part as well as the comrades who have applied for
amnesty.
MR BRINK: Was it Ikaneng Nani who told you that the youths had admitted being
UDF members, after interrogation?
MR HLASA: Yes, it's Nani and he said one of them had a T-shirt written RMC on,
Release Mandela Campaign. This was an affiliate of UDF.
MR BRINK: Was Ikaneng Nani an active members of AZAPO?
MR HLASA: Yes, he was.
MR BRINK: What position did he hold?
MR HLASA: He did not have any position.
MR BRINK: Was he an ordinary member?
MR HLASA: He was an ordinary member.
MR BRINK: And am I correct in understanding your evidence that he gave the
instruction to - I amy to wrong so correct me if I am, he gave the instruction that
these youths should be taken out and killed?
MR HLASA: He did not give instructions, he was not a senior member of the
organisation.
MR BRINK: He took part in the killings though?
MR HLASA: Yes, he took part.
MR BRINK: You see, I think what the Committee really wants to know is who in
fact, as an office bearer in AZAPO, gave an order that these youths must be killed.
MR HLASA: I'm the first to testify today, maybe the other comrades would come
and testify better. Those who took part in the interrogation, they would say and
explain who gave them instructions.
MR BRINK: You never made any enquiry from anyone as to where the
instructions had come from?
MR HLASA: I made investigations now when we adjourned for lunch.
MR BRINK: And what did you find?
MR HLASA: I was told Tiny Motlago and Sam Siyema gave an instruction.
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MR BRINK: Did you not know that before this hearing today? I mean you have
had ample opportunity to make these enquiries and you do it in the lunch
adjournment, approximately an hour and a half after the hearings had started today.
I find that very strange Mr Hlasa.
MR HLASA: I knew that instructions were taken out by the organisation, who in
particular I did not know.
MR BRINK: But you say you know now?
MR HLASA: Now I know.
MR BRINK: Thank you.
MR MALAN: May I just follow up on that. If I understood your evidence correctly
you didn't know of any instruction, you only knew that if the interrogation would
show that these people were UDF people, if that could be confirmed they would be
killed, that was the evidence you gave us.
MR HLASA: Not to be killed but to deal with them. If there was a proof that they
were members of the UDF we were to deal with them, not that if we proved that
they were members of the UDF we were going to kill them, it's not like that.
MR MALAN: So when did you for the first time learn that they were to be killed?
MR HLASA: ...[inaudible]
MR MALAN: Sorry, let me assist you in this because really I get confused now. I
think you told us you were working on the car, you were cleaning it because there
was oil, you didn't take part in the interrogation, when they came out you were told
to put on the ignition, to turn the ignition because these people were to be killed,
that was your evidence. ...[indistinct] and you say Nani told you that. And you
went to the other house, you had the caucus in the kitchen, you arranged and you
went out and you did the shootings in the two sessions.
MR HLASA: Ja, ...[intervention]
MR MALAN: Sorry, this is the point I want to get to, you never had an order to
kill, this is what you are saying, you were ready to kill. They were ready to be dealt
with, you were told to put on the ignition, it was just communicated to you that you
must drive, "we're going to kill these people"?
MR HLASA: No, that is not true, an instruction was taken out that these people
were going to be killed, we should start the car and go. Truly, we would not kill
them in Orlando West because the area was predominantly UDF.
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When Kani went out of the house he said: "Let's go, we're going to kill these
people", "whereto"? and the answer was: "We're going to comrade Glen's house.
We arrived at comrade Glen's house, they were put in the diningroom and we
caucused in the kitchen. The instruction was already issued out to be killed. The
caucus was about how and where, those were the two issues for the caucus in the
kitchen.
MR MALAN: But again if I understand you correctly, you never had any
knowledge of any specific instruction, you were simply told by Nani: "Put on,
we're driving away to this other house, these people are going to be killed"?
MR HLASA: That's what he said. He said an instruction had been issued out, an
order was taken out that they be killed. He even gave me a reason, he said they had
been tortured already and we can't just leave them.
MR MALAN: Did he say they had to be killed because they were tortured?
MR HLASA: No, because they were members of the UDF.
MR MALAN: Now where does the torture story, where does that part fit in?
MR HLASA: He told me that they were tortured during the interrogation and they
told the truth and it was confirmed they were members of the UDF, that's how
torture is involved in this, he was explaining to me now.
MR MALAN: Did he say to you that there was the RMC T-shirt, one of them had
an RMC T-shirt, is that what you said?
MR HLASA: Yes, he explained that.
MR MALAN: ...[inaudible] give evidence that they were wearing various T-shirts,
UDF T-shirts, Release Mandela Campaign T-shirts, did you tell that to us earlier?
MR HLASA: No.
CHAIRPERSON: I think it was in a different context.
MR MALAN: Okay, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: You may stand down Mr Hlasa, we will proceed to call one of
your colleagues with the understanding that we are not through with you yet, you
must still come back so that Mr Ameen can put some questions to you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
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AMNESTY HEARING
DATE: 8TH JUNE 1998
NAME: MR MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG
APPLICATION NO: 2740/96
DAY: 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla, your next witness?
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I am going to call
upon Mr Atasios Motlana Mphoreng.
MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Mr Mphoreng, you made a statement wherein you are applying for amnesty for the
killing of four youths in Showela on the 1st of August 1986, is that so?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct.
MR TLOUBATLA: In the first paragraph of your statement you say that:
"The political conflict between AZAPO and the UDF
reached an unprecedent level in 1986. In Johannesburg
in particular it got very ugly when some of our members
were brutally killed and set alight by student members
alliant to the UDF"
and you mention Khomezulu, Martin Mohau and Mr Buks Leo(?). Can you briefly
tell us how the situation was then, that is during this period of around the 1st of
August 1986? That is the relationship between you and the UDF affiliated
organisations.
MR MPHORENG: In 1986, especially here in Johannesburg, it was a general thing
that the UDF and AZAPO were in a state of war. What clearly showed this was
that in that year AZAPO lost many prominent members and among members we
lost in AZAPO I can mention comrade Sipho Khomezulu who stayed in Zola.
Comrade Khomezulu was very prominent in the organisation and it had not been
long since his return from Robben Island. Comrade Khomezulu was killed by
members of the UDF Alliance, SOSCO because he was a member of AZAPO.
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CHAIRPERSON: What does this SOSCO stand for in full?
MR MPHORENG: Soweto Student Congress.
MR TLOUBATLA: Were you at the funeral of Mr Sipho Khomezulu?
MR MPHORENG: I did not attend the funeral because, but I was at the night vigil.
MR TLOUBATLA: The night vigil, did it go uninterrupted? Were there any
incidents at the night vigil of Sipho Khomezulu?
MR MPHORENG: There were no problems if I remember very well.
MR TLOUBATLA: You also mention Mr Martin Mohau, do you know how he
was killed?
MR MPHORENG: Martin Mohau was a comrade in AZAPO and he had not been
back from Robben Island for a long time, when they came back from the cemetery
at Avelon, comrade Mohau was killed by members of SOSCO.
MR TLOUBATLA: How did you establish that the people who killed Martin
Mohau were members of SOSCO?
MR MPHORENG: I have explained earlier that it was general knowledge in 1986
among the community in Johannesburg that there was a conflict between UDF and
AZAPO. Comrade Martin if I remember well, had an AZAPO T-shirt and that's
how they identified him.
MR TLOUBATLA: You mention in your second paragraph that you were
permanently misplaced, can you give us some more information on that? Were you
personally misplaced, how did you live, where did you stay and then any other
members of the organisation that you know that were misplaced and where did you
stay?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mphoreng, are you fully conversant with Sotho? Is that your
mother tongue or is there any other African language that you more conversant
with? The interpreters want to know whether you are fully conversant with Sotho.
MR MPHORENG: I'm comfortable in Sotho and Tswana.
CHAIRPERSON: What is your mother tongue?
MR MPHORENG: Tswana.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, well maybe you should - what language have you been
speaking, I haven't been listening? Were you speaking South Sotho or Tswana all
along?
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MR MPHORENG: Tswana.
CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Yes? I had to interrupt because there was a
complaint from the interpreters that they can't hear you clearly.
Yes Mr Tloubatla?
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
The last question was, you are speaking of misplacement, that you were misplaced
and I want you to give us more details about the misplacement. Who was
misplaced and then where did those people stay, how and so on.
MR MPHORENG: I have mentioned that ...[intervention]
MR TLOUBATLA: Just take it slow, don't be fast okay, so that we can follow you.
MR MPHORENG: I have mentioned earlier on that in 1986 I was a member of
AZAPO and in that year AZAPO and UDF were fighting. As a member of AZAPO
it was not safe for me as well as other comrades of mine to stay with our families,
that is why we were misplaced. That is why we had camps where we could stay,
thinking that we are safe in those camps. Unlike staying in our respective homes
because you sleep alone at home and it's not safe in that way.
CHAIRPERSON: The interpreter uses the word misplaced, I think they are saying
displaced.
INTERPRETER: Thank you Chairperson.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
You home, where was it at the time and then where were you staying to try and
avoid these attacks from your opposition organisation?
MR MPHORENG: In 1986 I stayed in Orlando East and I went to stay in one of
our hide-outs in some parts in Orlando East far from home.
MR TLOUBATLA: You also mention, that is on the second page of your
application, that is page 15 of the bundle, you say:
"Parents were killed because they fathered members of a
wrong political organisation"
You mention Khomezulu, Sitlejani, Lingani's houses were burnt down. Do you
know of any particular parents of members of your organisation who were perhaps
harassed or killed, that is the parents who were either harassed or killed simply
because they were the parents of members of your organisation?
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MR MPHORENG: The parents that I remember who were killed in 1986 because
their children were members of AZAPO, I remember Mr Jacob Lingani. Mr Jacob
Lingani was killed because his children were members of AZAPO. I remember Mr
Buks Leo who was also killed because his child was a member of AZAPO. In Zola
I remember an incident where Lerato Sitlejani's was burnt down because Lerato
was a member of AZAPO at that time.
MR TLOUBATLA: You further mention that:
"In avoidance of retaliation and bloodshed we were
continuously on the run and appealed to key leaders of
the UDF to control the situation"
When you say you were continually on the run, what was happening, can you
explain that?
MR MPHORENG: We are members of AZAPO, which is a political organisation
which had discipline and a political programme. Most black people were part of
our political programme, that is why it took us time to realise that we were
supposed to defend ourselves by killing in other instances because members of
SOSCO were black people. Before they became members of UDF - I will put it
this way, before we had problems with them we were displaced at all times, trying
to run away from them, trying to avoid conflicts.
MR TLOUBATLA: When you say you were continually or continuously on the
run, would I be correct or is that, what you mean? In other words that you didn't
keep one place, you didn't stay at one place all the time, is that the meaning that I
should put into that?
MR MPHORENG: In English I would say we were nomadic because we did not
stay at one place, the reason for that being that of security measure. If it could have
been identified, our hiding place would be in danger and that is why we were
nomadic, not staying in one place.
CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed to something else Mr Tloubatla, are you
reading from, where are you reading from in leading your witness Mr Tloubatla?
Are you reading from the statement which is an Annexure?
MR TLOUBATLA: Yes. This bundle, I don't know whether the Chairman has got
this ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: Where precisely are you reading from?
MR TLOUBATLA: Page 15 of the bundle.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you have a copy of what is being read to you?
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MR MPHORENG: I have it Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: This is a letter that you wrote to the Truth and Reconciliation
Commission?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct, this is my statement.
CHAIRPERSON: And it is not dated is it?
MR MPHORENG: No date in my statement Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: That signature on the last page, is that your signature?
MR MPHORENG: That's correct, this is my signature.
CHAIRPERSON: Has this letter been written by yourself, is this your own
handwriting?
MR MPHORENG: This is my handwriting Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm that what stands in this letter is the truth? Do
you confirm the truth thereof now under oath?
MR MPHORENG: I confirm.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Tloubatla?
MR TLOUBATLA: Yes, thank you.
You are mentioning in your statement that a meeting was attended by the late
Doctor Asvat and Mrs Sesulu at the doctor's surgery ...[indistinct], do you know of
any other efforts by the leadership nationally, either of UDF or AZAPO, to try and
control this violence that was between the two organisations?
MR MPHORENG: The meeting that I remember very well was a meeting between
Doctor Asvat who was a prominent leader of AZAPO and Mrs Albertina Sesulu
who was also a prominent leader in the community at that time. This is a meeting
that I remember very well, a meeting trying to bring an end to the problems
between UDF and AZAPO,
MR TLOUBATLA: Besides this - before I even go into that, did you attend this
meeting personally?
MR MPHORENG: Yes, I attended.
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MR TLOUBATLA: Besides this meeting, are you aware of any other efforts from
the leadership of the community or from any other members of the community to
try and control the violence that was going on?
MR MPHORENG: Churches were involved if I remember very well because this
was a community problem, a problem that affected the whole community.
Churches took part, trying to solve the problems of the day. I remember Reverend
Sibedi was involved in trying to solve this. If I remember well, Archbishop Tutu
got involved in some of the cases, trying to stop violence.
MR TLOUBATLA: At the time, how old were you Mr Mphoreng, in 1986?
MR MPHORENG: I was 21 years old.
MR TLOUBATLA: What was your occupation?
MR MPHORENG: At the time of the incident bringing us here I was a full time
member of the organisation. I
was involved at the branch level in Orlando, I was the
secretary of the organisation.
MR TLOUBATLA: You were not employed in the sense of receiving payment,
salary and so on?
MR MPHORENG: I was unemployed.
MR TLOUBATLA: Okay. Now coming to the incident of the killing of these boys
at Showela, can you tell us how you got involved, who came to you, what
happened, just from the very beginning.
MR MPHORENG: After Jeff's house was burnt down in Orlando West, Jeff came
to Orlando at one of our hide-outs. It was in the morning when he arrived, I think it
was round about half past six to 7 o'clock in the morning, and he briefed me that
his house had been burnt.
After briefing me, I left together with him to Orlando West. Indeed when we
arrived the curtains were burnt to ashes and the paint was also burnt and the
blankets were burnt. He briefed me and he told me that petrol bombs were thrown
into the house and they even shot into the air.
MR TLOUBATLA: With whom was he when he came to give you a report?
MR MPHORENG: When he came to fetch me he was alone.
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MR TLOUBATLA: And then, was it just the two of you that went back to his
house?
MR MPHORENG: He found me with a certain boy at our hide-out but this boy
was not a member of the organisation, that is why we did not take him with, we left
him and I left with Jeff.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then you went back and what did you do when you went
to his house?
MR MPHORENG: When I arrived at his house I found two comrades and we tried
to clean the bedroom, yes, the curtains were burnt down and some of the blankets
were also burnt down and we cleaned the room.
MR TLOUBATLA: The house, was it still standing normally, was it okay except
that there had been some burnings inside?
MR MPHORENG: Yes, at that time the house was still standing. The main
bedroom was the only room affected or was the room affected.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then you started cleaning the house and then, what
happened thereafter?
MR MPHORENG: Other comrades arrived in the process of cleaning the house.
Probably news had spread already that Jeff's house was attacked. It was a tradition
within AZAPO that when one of your comrades is in trouble we had to go and help
him, now comrades were coming during the course of the day and leaving.
MR TLOUBATLA: Do you know who could possibly have alerted the other
comrades to come in and check at Jeff's place?
MR MPHORENG: I don't know but I think it's Jeff himself.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then you stayed there until when?
MR MPHORENG: I spent the whole day at Jeff's place, I left at night.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then during the day when you were there, except Jeff,
any other members of the organisation with whom you were there that you can
recall?
MR MPHORENG: When I arrived at Jeff's place in the morning I found comrade
Sam and comrade Tammy already there and during the course of the day, comrade
Pitso comrade Thandakubona and comrade Nani arrived. Yes, when I arrived I also
found comrade Kabelo.
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ADV BOSMAN: What time of the morning was it that you arrived at the house
that had been burnt?
MR MPHORENG: If I can remember very well it was about 10 minutes to seven.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then you spent the whole day, were there any
disturbances whilst you were there for, let's say from members of UDF?
MR MPHORENG: While busy cleaning Jeff's house I think about 15 or 20 boys
passed and they were singing intimidating slogans and the impression that I got at
that time and the suspicion at that time as that yes, these are members of AZAPO.
ADV BOSMAN: At what time was it that the boys passed? How late was it when
they passed?
MR MPHORENG: This happened at about half past eleven, a quarter to twelve.
ADV SIGODI: Sorry, did you say that this group belonged to AZAPO or to UDF?
MR MPHORENG: I said, when we were busy cleaning a group of boys, and I
suspected that these were members of SOSCO, they were singing intimidating
songs.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you.
Did they just - they sang walking past the house where you were, they didn't do
anything?
MR MPHORENG: They sang, passed, and went back and sang, passed, and went
back and we just ignored them because we were cleaning.
MR TLOUBATLA: So in other words they were going up and down the street in
front of this house?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct, they were singing up and down.
MR TLOUBATLA: Can you recall perhaps how many times they went up and
down the street?
MR MPHORENG: I do not remember how many times but it was a few times, I
can't remember whether it was five or six times but I do remember they were
singing up and down.
MR TLOUBATLA: Okay, then you were there, you were cleaning and ultimately
what transpired?
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MR MPHORENG: After cleaning I did not leave for Orlando, I remained behind.
During the day comrade Kani and comrade Ernest went to Orlando, I think they
were going to wash and after 30 minutes or 45 minutes after they had left they
came back with certain boys who were in the car.
When they arrived with these boys in the house I managed to identify that these
boys were among a group of boys singing intimidating songs.
MR TLOUBATLA: When they came back, who came back and with how many
boys was he?
MR MPHORENG: If I remember well, there were six in number.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then who was travelling with those boys?
MR MPHORENG: They were with comrade Pitso, comrade Joey, comrade Kani
and comrade Jeff.
MR TLOUBATLA: Okay. Then they arrived there, you are at the house and then
what happened?
MR MALAN: Sorry, were all six of them with the four comrades in one car?
MR MPHORENG: They used two cars.
ADV BOSMAN: How did you identify them as having been part of the group that
sang the intimidating songs?
MR MPHORENG: While we were busy cleaning I went out now and then because
it was scary because AZAPO and UDF were fighting. If you saw a group of people
you would not rest and I identified them, I saw them, that they were in the group of
people singing.
ADV BOSMAN: How big was the group that was singing?
MR MPHORENG: In 1986 during the conflicts, the youths, the school children
were the most involved in the conflict, now the people who were singing were my
age.
ADV BOSMAN: No but I don't mean their size I mean how many people were
singing in that group, how many people were in the group?
MR MPHORENG: I mentioned earlier on that there might have been 15 to 20, I'm
not sure about the exact number.
ADV BOSMAN: So how did you distinguish these six people, on what did you
distinguish them?
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MR MPHORENG: The six suited the description of the people I saw.
ADV BOSMAN: But what were the distinguishing factors, what was special about
them that you remembered these six out of twenty people?
MR MALAN: If I may just add on here, give us the description of the six people
then.
MR MPHORENG: You would normally identify a person by the kind of clothes,
that helps a lot in identifying. If a person is wearing a red jersey ...[intervention]
MR MALAN: Mr Mphoreng, I asked you a specific question please, I asked you to
give us a description of these people, not on how one would normally identify
people. The question that Advocate Bosman put to you was: "How did you identify
these six amongst the 15 or 20"? Your answer was: they fitted the description of
the people you saw, now we want to know why did you know that they were there?
What did you see on them, was it their faces, was it their clothes, if it's there
clothes, what was the clothes, how did you know that those six were among the
15?
MR MPHORENG: I have problems as to how I identified them exactly but what
happened was that these boys, these six boys who were in the company of our
comrades were among a group of the boys singing intimidating songs.
ADV SIGODI: I just want clarity on this aspect. In your response you said that
they fitted the description, were they described to you or did you see them, did you
identify them?
MR MPHORENG: Nobody identified them to me, I saw them myself.
ADV SIGODI: So when they were brought to you, did you see the people you had
seen or did somebody describe them to you, because the word that was used by the
interpreter was that they were described, they fitted the description. I just want to
clarify the interpretation between the word: "description" and: "identification".
MR MPHORENG: Nobody told me that it was them, I saw them myself.
CHAIRPERSON: You see, I understand you perfectly but the problem is that the
confusion came because you yourself Mr Mphoreng, used to the wrong words to
express yourself. In your own language you said: "basuti description", you said so
instead of simply: ...[no translation]
I don't know why you used that word, when in fact what you meant simply that
they looked like the same people who passed on earlier on. You must be careful in
using words because they can cause a unnecessary confusion.
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MR MPHORENG: Yes, Judge, I agree with you, I should have used the word:
"They were like those I saw in the group".
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Mphoreng, these people were brought to you there and
then can you just go on from there, what happened, where did you take them to,
what did you do with them?
MR MPHORENG: They were six and we split them in two groups, three were
taken to the one room and three were taken to the other room and thereafter we
started with the interrogation. I was personally involved in the interrogation.
MR TLOUBATLA: I want you to give us a detailed description of how you went
about interrogating them, that is particularly yourself. How did you go about
interrogating them?
MR MPHORENG: I said earlier on that I strongly suspected that these boys were
members of SOSCO, now when we interrogated them I was actually confirming
my suspicion. This is how we interrogated them: I severely assaulted them. If I
remember very well I was using hangers(?), I was using bottles, I was kicking
them, I was beating them with my fists.
During the interrogation I observed that two of these boys had UDF T-shirts on,
one of the T-shirts was printed: RMC, which is Release Mandela Campaign, the
other T-shirt was UDF. As I was busy with one of them I got the information that
yes, indeed they were members of SOSCO and they had been instructed that
members of AZAPO are the enemies and they must be killed.
MR TLOUBATLA: Did they, during that interrogation, did they mention who
gave them such instructions to assault members of AZAPO?
MR MPHORENG: One of the victims in the group that I interrogated mentioned
that Masichaba - I think her surname was Luate, Masichaba was a prominent
member of the UDF, now one of the boys informed me that Masichaba told them
that members of AZAPO are not right, they just need to be killed. That is the
information that I got during the interrogation.
MR TLOUBATLA: Would you agree with me that because of the pressure, the
assaults that you were inflicting on them, the answers might not necessarily have
been correct but they had said to please you as the interrogators?
MR MPHORENG: I have mentioned that there was a conflict between AZAPO
and UDF, we were not fighting as individuals and that is why these members of
UDF, when they got hold of AZAPO they killed him. An example is that of Martin
Mohau, they killed him just because he was a member of AZAPO and the same
applies to Sipho Khomezulu.
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MR MALAN: Will you please answer the question that was put to you.
Will you repeat that question please Mr Tloubatla?
MR TLOUBATLA: Would you agree with me that because of the pressure that
you had exerted on these boys, some of the answers that they gave you may not
necessarily have been true but they were just simply said in order to try and
appease you as the interrogators? In other words, some sort of confession through
force might not necessarily be true. Do you agree with me on that?
MR MPHORENG: Yes, I fully agree with you.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you. And then - right, you interrogated them, you
assaulted them and then what happened thereafter?
MR MPHORENG: I assaulted them with hangers and bottles and as I was busy
one of the victims names Oscar confirmed that they were members of SOSCO and
that they received an order from Masichaba Luarte that members of AZAPO were
enemies.
MR TLOUBATLA: Who was with you during this interrogation of these boys?
MR MPHORENG: I was with comrade Nani Kani, I was with comrade Kabelo and
Jeff was also present.
MR TLOUBATLA: It was just the three of you in the whole house all the time?
MR MPHORENG: It was not the three of us, I've mentioned the people who were
with me in the room. Remember we split in two groups, the three victims were in
this room where I was and the other three in the other room.
MR TLOUBATLA: What I want to know is, in total - that is the people that you
would regard as your comrades who were assisting you in interrogating these
people, who else was there and how many people were there?
MR MPHORENG: The people who were with me when we interrogated these
comrades were myself, Kabelo, Jeff, Pitso, Kani and Joey.
MR TLOUBATLA: So you proceeded to interrogated them and until when did you
interrogate these people?
MR MPHORENG: We interrogated them for almost the whole afternoon until it
was getting dark.
MR TLOUBATLA: Okay. What happened when it became dark?
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MR MPHORENG: Comrade Sam Siyema arrived together with comrade Tammy
Moglegwa. These two comrades were prominent leaders of our organisation. When
they arrived we briefed them about the situation and after briefing them an order
was issued out, they said: "Yes, we hear your report, now must happen is that these
boys be killed". What I'm trying to say it, I received an order from the two
comrades at that time.
MR TLOUBATLA: Just to clear something, if my memory serves me well, I
thought you mentioned that when you were called to Jeff's house you and arrived
there you found Tammy and Sam or something like that, I don't know whether I
was correct.
MR MPHORENG: Yes, you read me perfectly well, it was in the morning when I
found comrade Tammy and comrade Sam but they left during the day and they
came just towards sunset.
MR TLOUBATLA: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the Pitso that you mentioned, is that the applicant?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct.
MR TLOUBATLA: Alright.
CHAIRPERSON: That is - what did you say about him? When you were asked as
to who was present during the interrogation, you said something like you were
divided into two groups and then you mentioned some names and you mentioned
him. I don't quite follow in what context you mentioned him.
MR MPHORENG: The reason why I mention his name is that he was in the same
yard where the interrogation took place.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. He was not present during the interrogation, isn't that
what you said?
MR MPHORENG: I have mentioned already that we separated and went in two
rooms, I did not see him in the room where I was.
CHAIRPERSON: Now why are you giving us his name? If he was not part of the
interrogation why are you giving us his name?
MR MPHORENG: I mentioned his name because when these boys were caught up
in Orlando East one of the cars that was used was his.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, we'll check the record.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
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So when Sam and Tammy arrived, what happened, that is in the evening now?
CHAIRPERSON: You briefed them and later they said that these people must be
killed and you are saying that, you say they said to you: "Yes, we hear you but
these boys must be killed" and you said that for that reason that is why you say that
you received an order from the two comrades to kill, is that what you are saying?
MR MPHORENG: I said an order was taken out by comrade Tammy and comrade
Sam, these are the two comrades who arrived when it was getting dark. They were
prominent leaders of the organisation and we briefed them as to what happened
during the day. We told them about the information that we got out of the victims
and it was then that an order was issued out that these people be killed.
MR TLOUBATLA: Just to deviate slightly, in your application or in your
statement wherein you apply for amnesty for the killing of the security guard - I
beg your pardon Mr Chairman, I just want to refer to something ...[intervention]
MR MALAN: The loose statement.
CHAIRPERSON: Why are we moving to something else now?
MR TLOUBATLA: Now I just wanted to refer to something specific Mr
Chairman, I'll leave it out for the moment. I can't find that statement anyway.
At B you said that comrade Tammy and comrade Sam gave you an order to kill
these people and then what happened thereafter, what did you do? What was the
next action that you took?
MR MPHORENG: After comrade Tammy and comrade Sam gave out an order we
implemented the order. The order was that these members of SOSCO be loaded
into the boots of the cars and kill them thereafter.
We took them and we went to Showela. I was involved and I had a firearm. When
we arrived at Showela I had Oscar with me and I grabbed him from behind by his
belt. We arrived in an open veld in Showela and I implemented the order, I shot
Oscar.
MR TLOUBATLA: You mentioned that you grabbed Oscar by the belt, shot him
and so on, did you know these boys before? How did you know that the person you
were grabbing by his belt was Oscar? Did you know these boys before?
MR MPHORENG: I did not know him before but during the interrogation his
name cropped up because I was actually dealing with him, that's how I knew it was
Oscar. I did not know him before, it was only during the interrogation that I got to
know him.
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MR TLOUBATLA: Before you went to Showela - I want your role, the role that
you played, how did you transport these people, how did you manage to get them
into the cars?
MR MPHORENG: It was clear after the order was issued out, that we had to force
them. We just packed them into the boot and we drove to Showela.
MR TLOUBATLA: Perhaps you don't understand my question. You can literally
pick a person up and dump them in a boot, alternatively you can give him an
instruction: "Get into the boot", what I want to know is, how did you do that and
you personally, did you perhaps stand back and keep quiet and somebody ordered
them to go into the cars? What was your role in getting these people into the boots
of the cars?
MR MPHORENG: I grabbed Oscar by his belt from behind and I pushed him and
roughly pushed him into the boot, others did the same.
MR TLOUBATLA: Alright, ...[intervention]
ADV SIGODI: Do you remember how long this interrogation took?
MR MPHORENG: It took a long time. If I remember, I think they arrived at about
3 p.m. at Jeff's place until it was dark.
ADV BOSMAN: Why did it take so long to interrogate them? I mean, all you
wanted to know was whether they were members of SOSCO and who gave the
instructions.
MR MPHORENG: It took time to interrogate them because they did not confess
quickly. One other thing is that we were waiting for an instruction from above,
from the senior members of the organisation as to yes, we have information from
these people, they confirm that they are members of SOSCO, what should be the
next step then, that is why it took so long.
ADV SIGODI: And where were the other people, I mean in which room were they
in the house, the other three?
MR MPHORENG: I'm not sure as to the measurements but Jeff's house was an
ordinary four roomed house but it wasn't a long distance, it was just a short
distance.
ADV SIGODI: So they were in the next room?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct.
ADV SIGODI: And you were busy assaulting them in one room?
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MR MPHORENG: Yes, the interrogation carried on even in the other room.
ADV SIGODI: Were they screaming?
MR MPHORENG: If I remember well, they did not scream.
ADV SIGODI: Did you hear screams from the other room?
MR MPHORENG: I did not hear screams from the other room.
ADV SIGODI: And how badly injured were they when you took them into the
boot of the car?
MR MPHORENG: They were badly injured because we interrogated them for a
long time with bottles, with hangers, those are the things that I used.
ADV SIGODI: But they did not scream?
MR MPHORENG: I do not remember Chairperson, whether they screamed or they
did not scream but there is a probability that they screamed because we were
interrogating them.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Alright. From - okay, even before we get there, what I want to know is, what was
the need for you to interrogate them? I mean they had been picked up, you say you
were sure that they looked like the people you saw during the course of the day
walking up and down, singing songs, what was the need, can you perhaps explain?
What was the need for you to interrogate them any further, why didn't you just
simply execute them?
MR MPHORENG: The reason to interrogate them was that during the morning I
had a strong suspicion that they were members of SOSCO because they were
singing intimidating songs, intimidating and belittling our organisation but at the
time I did not have facts that they were members of SOSCO.
Now with the interrogation I was trying to confirm my suspicions and the
information clearly came out during the interrogation that they were members of
SOSCO and one other point, some of them had T-shirts of Release Mandela
Campaign and the UDF T-shirts. Two of the SOSCO members in the room where I
was, one had a UDF T-shirt and the other one an RMC T-shirt.
MR TLOUBATLA: If these boys had told you that they were not members of UDF
or SOSCO or so on, what would you have done after having assaulted them?
CHAIRPERSON: Well sorry, maybe they did. Didn't they tell you at some stage
that they were not members of UDF or SOSCO?
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MR MPHORENG: At the beginning of the interrogation they said they were not
members but as the interrogation went along they confirmed that they were
members of SOSCO.
CHAIRPERSON: Now we can get to the next stage of Mr Tloubatla's question.
When they told you that they were not members of UDF or SOSCO, what did you
do?
MR MPHORENG: I think our enemy was clear and it was a general knowledge
that the UDF was fighting with AZAPO. Now the fight was between the members
of the UDF and the members of AZAPO. We were not only fighting ordinary
members of the community, we were fighting members of UDF as AZAPO.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether the interpretation could be inaccurate but I
thought I asked you: "When they told you that they were not members of UDF or
SOSCO, what was your reaction, what did you do"?
MR MPHORENG: When the interrogation began and they told us they were not
members of SOSCO, we did not agree with them because at that time we had
already seen that some of them had T-shirts aligned to the UDF which was an
organisation we were fighting.
CHAIRPERSON: Now, I didn't ask you whether you agreed with them, I asked
you - and this is for the third time, I asked you: "What did you do, if anything"?
MR MPHORENG: We harshly interrogated them and we assaulted them.
CHAIRPERSON: Why, why did you assault them? I mean they tell you: "We are
not members of the UDF or SOSCO, why do you assault them"
MR MPHORENG: The reason for us to assault them was because they were not
telling us the truth, it was clear that they were lying because during those days you
did not just wear an AZAPO T-shirt if you were not a member of AZAPO, you
would not put on a UDF T-shirt if you were not a member of the UDF.
ADV BOSMAN: Were you not more concerned with the issue of whether they
were members of SOSCO? It seemed as though you were more interested in
identifying them as SOSCO member, is that not so? That is what I gathered.
MR MPHORENG: We were more concerned with whether they were members of
the UDF which was aligned to SOSCO.
ADV BOSMAN: Then why did you assault the people who were wearing UDF T-
shirts?
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MR MPHORENG: The motivation for the interrogation was that in the morning
these boys sang intimidating songs and they belittled our organisation. Now they
were found in Orlando in the vicinity of some of our comrades and they released
the information that they were going to reconnoitre the houses of some of our
comrades so that they can be attacks that evening.
In the interrogation they mentioned that the reason for going to Orlando was to
reconnoitre the area to identify houses so that in the evening they can be attacked.
Parents were being killed, they were being harassed because their children
belonged to AZAPO.
ADV BOSMAN: I don't really follow you now Mr Mphoreng, exactly why did you
assault them? First I got the impression, and I may be wrong, but I got the
impression you were assaulting them because they were SOSCO members, you
wanted the to acknowledge that they were SOSCO members, then you indicated
no, you wanted them to acknowledge that they were UDF members and I asked
you then: "You knew they were UDF members, some of them, because they were
wearing the T-shirts, why did you assault them", now I get the impression you
were assaulting them because you wanted to know about their indication that they
were reconnoitring to identify house to attack. Could you just clarify this, I don't
follow.
MR MPHORENG: One of the reasons to interrogate them, we wanted to know
exactly who gave them orders to burn our homes and to kill our leaders, we were
not just assaulting them. That the members of the UDF was not the only reason for
the interrogation, we also wanted to know who issued out orders, who sent them to
kill our members of burn homes of members of our organisation.
ADV SIGODI: Did you ask them if they were responsible for burning Jeff's house?
MR MPHORENG: Yes, we asked them.
ADV SIGODI: And what was the response?
MR MPHORENG: The information that we got from Oscar is that he was present
when Jeff's house was petrol-bombed.
MR MALAN: Mr Mphoreng, Advocate Bosman put the three answers to you
which you gave at various stages, you say one of the reason that you gave for the
interrogation and the assaults was that they released information on the
reconnaissance in the area to those comrades of yours that brought them in, is that
correct?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct.
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MR MALAN: Now, if they were already have given to your comrades bringing
them in, the information that they were doing these reconnaissance trips, why
would they have to be assaulted in order to admit that are of UDF? Why would
they deny the UDF or the SOSCO ties if they before that already admitted to
reconnoitring for the purposes of bringing attacks to the homes of comrades?
MR MPHORENG: According to us, that information was insufficient, we wanted
to know exactly who sent them, who sent them to attack members of AZAPO, to
burn down homes of AZAPO members.
MR MALAN: Let me try this again. You say they voluntarily gave the information
that they were on these reconnaissance trips but at the same time they had to be
assaulted and beaten in order to admit that they were of the UDF, that they were
affiliated to UDF?
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman, I wonder whether I should not object to that.
MR MALAN: I'm trying to find out if you could help me, if I understand it
incorrectly then please help Mr Tloubatla.
MR TLOUBATLA: I don't think the word voluntarily was used, I don't know
whether it makes any difference.
MR MALAN: No, sorry, let me withdraw the word voluntarily indeed
...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: It makes a lot of difference.
MR MALAN: That wasn't used but what was indeed, evidence was given if I
understood that correctly, and the witness can correct me if I'm wrong, that one of
the reasons for the interrogation was that they released information on these
reconnaissance activities to the comrades that brought them into the house even
before they were interrogated and it was to get further information on that that they
were interrogated. That was one of the reasons advanced to Advocate Bosman on
here question.
Now my question is, despite divulging this to the comrades that brought them
there, this is before any assault as I understand it, why do they now suddenly deny
even membership or affiliation to UDF and that acknowledgement, that confession
has to be beaten out of them - to follow your own questioning at an earlier stage
Mr Tloubatla.
MR MPHORENG: All the information that we got from members of the SOSCO
was retrieved during the interrogation. As a member of AZAPO I disbelieved that
information, I felt that it was insufficient, we wanted to know exactly where the
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orders came from, we wanted to know who sent them, we wanted to know why
they were executing that.
MR MALAN: Did they tell you?
MR MPHORENG: Yes, they told us.
MR MALAN: Will you share that with us please?
MR MPHORENG: They mentioned Masichaba's name who was a prominent UDF
leader, she lived in that area.
MR MALAN: Was that the only name?
MR MPHORENG: That is the name I clearly remember.
MR MALAN: Were there no other names?
MR MPHORENG: I only remember the name of Masichaba, I don't know whether
in the other group names were mentioned.
MR MALAN: Did they admit to having burnt the home that you were cleaning up
after the bombing?
MR MPHORENG: Yes, they agreed.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by that?
MR MPHORENG: They agreed that they were present when Jeff's house was
petrol-bombed.
CHAIRPERSON: That is not what you said a short while ago, you said only Oscar,
you said Oscar is the one who admitted that the was present.
MR MPHORENG: I mentioned Oscar's name because he is the one I interrogated a
lot.
CHAIRPERSON: Well you know it's not the same thing. If you say Oscar
admitted, it's not the same thing as saying that, as the answer that you have just
given now. You must listen to yourself when you give evidence.
I think maybe we could adjourn here.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
AMNESTY HEARING
DATE: 09 JUNE 1998
NAME: MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG
HELD AT: JOHANNESBURG
DAY 2
______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSO
N: It's the 9th of June, we are continuing the same matter. Mr Tloubatla?
MR TLOUBATLA: With due respect Mr Chairman I think I maybe lost a little bit
in the sense I can't remember where we stopped last time. My assistant is
unfortunately not here.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry that's your point where we stopped, according to my
recollection although it was really not the thrust, the thrust of the evidence was at
the point where I admonished the witness to listen to himself as and when you
testify because we were at a point, it was on a point where I told him that earlier on
he had said that it Oscar said that he was the one, the only one who was present
when the attack to place and yesterday later on, in the late afternoon, when we
were about to adjourn he conveyed to us that, all of them said that they were
present when the attack took place, but I don't know whether that was at the time
the main direction, I think there was a main direction, that was an (indistinct). I
think the main thing was about - let me not commit myself.
MR TLOUBATLA: I think I can recollect slightly, I think we were at a point when
he was telling us how they took them from the house into the cars and we were at
that point.
MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Mphoreng do you recall yesterday I
asked you how were these boys taken into the cars and I even put they question
were they not resisting and so on?
MR MPHORENG: I remember that question and I answered as follows: I said I
said I grabbed Oscar by the belt behind when we took them to the cars. I pushed
him roughly into the boot. Other victims were also pushed in the same manner into
the boot.
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MR TLOUBATLA: Just to take you a little bit back, you were saying that during
the interrogation you assaulted them with wires, hangers, bottles and so on. I just
want you to give us the detail as to how did you assault them, I mean with a bottle
one can hit one with a bottle, one can stab one with a bottle. How did you assault
them with that assortment of weapons?
MR MPHORENG: This is how I assaulted Oscar: I hit him with a bottle on the
head until it broke and thereafter I stabbed him with the same bottle and I assaulted
him again with a hanger. I think he was bleeding already because the bottle had
broken. I stabbed him with that bottle.
MR TLOUBATLA: Alright. You then put them into the car and then the car in
which you were travelling, who else was there with you except the victims?
MR MPHORENG: The people who were with me were comrade Sam Siema (?)
who was the driver and comrade Tamee who was seated in the front passenger seat
and myself seated in the back seat.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then where did you go to from Orlando West?
MR MPHORENG: We went straight to Shawella (?) if my memory serves me
well, that is where we shot them.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Tloubatla where is the first applicant Mr Hlasa?
MR TLOUBATLA: He had not yet arrived sir, I don't know. I did indicate that he
hasn't arrived.
CHAIRPERSON: Is he in custody or what?
COUNSEL (?): No he's not.
CHAIRPERSON: Well as long as he's (indistinct) he's on his own, I don't think he
will have any problem. I got concerned because for a moment I thought he was in
custody or something so if it is through fault of no one else then well that's alright.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. I'm sure Mr Mphoreng you were
listening when Mr Hlasa was speaking here yesterday and then he told the
committee that you first went to another comrades house in Shawella before you
went to go and shoot them. Do you recall that?
MR MPHORENG: I recall that.
MR TLOUBATLA: Now the question is, what he said is it true that you went to
another comrades house before you went to go and shoot them, where you were
(indistinct) in the kitchen?
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MR MPHORENG: We used two different cars to go and shoot these people. The
car that I was in went straight to the spot where they were shot.
MR TLOUBATLA: So your group didn't go to Shawella?
MR MPHORENG: If I remember very well, our group did not go to the comrades
house, the car that I was in went straight to the spot where we shot them.
MR TLOUBATLA: But do you know the comrade that Mr Hlasa was speaking
about yesterday? The house in Shawella, I forgot the name, Glen yes. Do you
know that house, did you ever go there that evening.
MR MPHORENG: If I remember very well our group did not go to comrade
Glen's house.
MR TLOUBATLA: Alright then tell us what you actually did when you arrived
where the people were shot?
MR MPHORENG: When we arrive at the spot where they were shot we parked the
car opposite to the open space, we got out of the car. Comrade Tamee (?) opened
the boot. After opening the boot I took out Oscar, still grabbing him by his belt
behind. We went to a spot where I shot him and this was a sort of a hill. Now I put
him on the edge. If I remember well I shot him with three bullets on the head. After
shooting him I pushed him towards the bottom of the hill slope.
MR TLOUBATLA: Did you witness the shooting of the other three boys?
MR MPHORENG: Yes I witnessed that.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm not clear, what three boys are you referring to because if you
say the other three boys then it means that you are referring to the other group.
MR TLOUBATLA: The other group yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Does he understand you the same way? The question is when
the other three boys were shot by Hlasa and others, when they were shot did you
see that?
MR MPHORENG: My answer was directed to the boys who were in our car, not
those in Hlasa's car.
CHAIRPERSON: The other two I imagine because you shot one, obviously you
witnessed that one and if you wanted to know about the remaining in your group
he would have said the other three so I thought when your lawyer speaks of the
other three you are referring to those who were shot by Hlasa and others. Did you
see that?
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MR MPHORENG: (indistinct)
CHAIRPERSON: No, just answer my question. Did you see the other three people
when they were shot by Hlasa and others?
MR MPHORENG: No I did not.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, thank you very much, that was my
question basically.
CHAIRPERSON: But, sorry. Do you know whether or not the people you shot was
at the same point where the other three were shot by Hlasa and somebody else,
were also shot, because both of you speak of up the hill, the ravine and the like?
MR MPHORENG: We're talking of the same place, but there are distances
involved in this. The other group might have shot at this spot and the other group
about 10 meters from the first spot.
CHAIRPERSON: Now if there was no meeting at Glen's house to (indistinct) and
to finalise as to how these people were to be killed and where, then how come that
they happened to be shot at more or less the same spot? Was it agreed previously
and if so where?
MR MPHORENG: I was implementing and order from Orlando West. An order
had been taken out already that these boys, members of SOSCO, were going to be
shot and we were going to shoot them in Shawella, that is what I remember very
well.
CHAIRPERSON: I see, thank you.
MR TLOUBATLA: When you were given the order to shoot these boys, did the
order also include the place where you had to shoot them?
MR MPHORENG: Yes the order included the spot.
MR TLOUBATLA: But you personally didn't witness the shooting of the other
three boys, not the ones with whom you went?
MR MPHORENG: No I did not see them.
ADV BOSMAN: Just a moment. Mr Mphoreng how was the spot identified, how
was it described when the order was given?
MR MPHORENG: They said we were going to Shawella which is an open space,
in other words it was an outside area, it was outside Shawella.
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ADV BOSMAN: Was there any mention of the hill or the ravine or did you just
choose that by your own accord?
MR MPHORENG: The people who took the decision, who gave the orders as to
where the deceased had to be killed, did they also accompany you to the spot
where these people were killed or did some of them accompany you?
MR MPHORENG: The people who were with me in the car, comrade (indistinct)
and comrade Sam Siema (?) were the people who took out an order.
CHAIRPERSON: They also went with you to the spot where the people were
killed or shot?
MR MPHORENG: Yes, I left with them.
MR TLOUBATLA: I thank you Mr Chairman. The other boys, that is you say you
shot Oscar and then you push him down the hill - the others, the other two, did you
see how they were shot and would you describe how they were shot?
MR MPHORENG: When I took Oscar from the boot the second victim was taken
by comrade Tamee, the third victim was taken by comrade Sam. We went to the
same spot. After shooting I went back to the car, on my way to the car I heard
gunshots. Now the impression that I gained at that time was that comrade Tamee
and comrade Sam were shooting the last two victims.
MR TLOUBATLA: After killing those boys and then where did you go?
MR MPHORENG: After killing these boys comrade Tamee and comrade Sam
dropped me at Orlando East and one of our hideouts.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then how many days after this incident were you
arrested?
MR MPHORENG: If I remember well, I was arrested after two if not three days.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Mphoreng I just want you to give us the background to -
you know a slight background to this violence that existed between your
organisation and the UDF. In fact even before I come to that, there was a question
if you will recall yesterday where you seemed to - was there any difference, in fact
you use UDF, SOSCO so interchangeably one doesn't know which is which. Was
there any difference between SOSCO and the UDF. Did you regard the people of
SOSCO as different people, did you regard the UDF as a completely different
group that has got nothing to do with SOSCO?
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MR MPHORENG: According to the political organisation structures, this was the
situation: UDF was the mother body and SOSCO was the student wing of the
UDF.
MR TLOUBATLA: So in your dealings, or let's say in this conflict, did you
differentiate between the UDF or SOSCO?
MR MPHORENG: UDF and SOSCO were one thing, the only difference was that
SOSCO was a student wing of the UDF.
MR TLOUBATLA: So what ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence, you attitude towards UDF and
SOSCO, you really regard them as one thing. In fact you just referred to SOSCO,
you see SOSCO as being UDF and as I understand the trend of your evidence you
see them as being one to such an extent that sometimes when you refer to a
member of SOSCO you simply refer to him as a UDF member because they're the
same thing?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Do you have an idea as to when
exactly did this conflict between AZAPO and the UDF associated organisations
commence?
MR MPHORENG: This is how I recall the start of this conflict: the conflict
between UDF and AZAPO started in Port Elizabeth in the Eastern Cape, I think the
conflict was worse in that area because that is where most of our comrades were
killed. If I remember very well some of the members of the UDF were also killed.
That is where the conflict started and later on it came to Johannesburg and Soweto.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla I think you went into the background in details
yesterday, you even handed up some documents. What you could ask your client
though, perhaps you could ask him whether, apart from what the previous
applicant has said with regard to the background, whether there's anything more or
anything new that he wants to add onto that one. Maybe he's got his own personal
perspectives which may come on to a new dimension of the conflicts. But really it
doesn't help a lot for him to repeat the same thing what the (indistinct) said.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. We had Mr Hslasa yesterday telling
us about the background, where it started and what was happening in other parts of
the country. Mr Mphoreng do you perhaps have any other aspects that you can -
perhaps even other examples that you would like to mentioned in as far as this
conflict between AZAPO and the UDF were concerned?
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MR MPHORENG: Thank you very much Chairperson. Some conflicts that I
remember, I remember the one at the Teflo (?) University. There was a time where
Lymon Mbasa and Tamee (?) were attacked at the University at the North. They
were going to address the Azanian Student Movement. They were attacked by
AZAZCO. At that time AZAZCO was an organisation related to the charterists, in
other words it was also a charterist organisation. The other incident that took place
if I remember very well, it was at the University of the Western Cape. Comrade
Lymon Mbasa was a prominent leader of AZAPO at that time, it was in 1985 if not
early 1986. He was attacked because he had gone to that university to address the
students of an organisation that was related to AZAPO. He was attacked by
members of AZAZCO.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Mphoreng one of the incidents actually that you have just
described - Mr Chairman I will hand in, I think I've got a press cutting here, it's
from the start date of the 23rd of April 1985.
MR MALAN: Mr Chairman if I may just come in here. As far as I'm concerned I
accept that there was conflict between the UDF, its junior or affiliated
organisations. This conflict, to my knowledge, apparently started in the Eastern
Cape, it moved virtually country wide, I'm not aware of Natal but certainly in other
Provinces it was there and I don't know what Mr Ameen (indistinct), but I certainly
don't dispute the fact that there was and we can save a lot of time, there was
conflict between those two organisations indeed.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I don't think I'm going to go into
detail, it's just the he mentioned something and it happens that I've got actually a
press cutting, I thought I'd ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Do you have enough copies for everybody there?
MR TLOUBATLA: Unfortunately not, I will make them during the ...
(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Where does it relate, to which incident does it relate to?
MR TLOUBATLA: It relates to the attack on members of AZAPO at the
University of the North.
CHAIRPERSON: When was that?
MR TLOUBATLA: This was the 23rd of April 1985.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, we'll have that. I wouldn't like to ask Mr Ameen what
his attitude is at this stage, I don't want to put him in a very difficult position, I
don't want him to commit himself at this stage. It may be that he has not finalised
his consultation. I think let's have it up as EXHIBIT F?
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MR TLOUBATLA: Exhibit ja, I'm not so sure if it's F.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes it will be F, yes. What's the date Mr Tloubatla?
MR TLOUBATLA: It's 23 April 1985, it's from the Star.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Tloubatla.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Mphoreng did you see the article, the one in the Star, the
one that I gave it to you?
MR MPHORENG: I saw the article. Yes, I've seen the article and it confirms what
I've just said.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then lastly, these guns with which you were shooting
these boys, where did you get them. Who supplied you with the guns?
MR MPHORENG: Comrade Tameen (indistinct) gave me the gun that I used, he
was my leader, he gave me that firearm.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then after - alright, let me rather put it this way - when
did he give you the firearm and how long did you keep that firearm?
MR MPHORENG: In early 1986 I received para-military training in Zaminie, this
lasted for 2 weeks. This was just a short course and I was trained as to how to use
firearms such as 3.8 which is a revolver, 3.7 Magnum and 9mm firearms. During
that period, because of the conflict of the war, I had the firearm with me all the
time. This was the firearm provided by comrade Tamee.
MR TLOUBATLA: Who was giving you the para-military training and where was
this?
MR MPHORENG: The training was in Zaminie (?). I was trained by comrade Sam
Siema and comrade Tamee (indistinct).
MR TLOUBATLA: Is it true that after this incident you actually went into exile?
MR MPHORENG: That is true.
MR TLOUBATLA: And did you joint any organisation, which organisation and
what did you do?
MR MPHORENG: I joined the military wing of the BCMA which is AZANLA,
Azanian Liberation Army.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then, yes just tell us, what did you do in the AZANLA?
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MR MPHORENG: I skipped the country into Botswana, we went to the BCMA
organisation and immediately thereafter we joined the military wing, which is
AZANLA and we got a further training.
CHAIRPERSON: Because of the tenuous, if any, relevance of his activities post
the incident, I don't think we need to go into details.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I won't go into any details further
but - when did you come back to the country?
MR MPHORENG: It was in 1984, 1994 in August, I am sorry.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman I think that will be all for the moment, I don't
have any further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you can just say, throughout your period in exile, were
you involved in the programmes and activities of BCM or AZANLA?
MR MPHORENG: I was involved in the activities of BCMA and AZANLA
throughout my exiled life.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TLOUBATLA
CHAIRPERSON: How do you think or what possible political purpose would the
killing of these boys or boy have served?
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson yes there was a political purpose for the killing of
these boys. Before these comrades were killed,
I was a member of a political organisation called AZAPO. AZAPO was a political
organisation and it had a political programme of conscientising the people about
the political situation in the country. There were conflicts between AZAPO and the
UDF, now our work of conscientising the people and teaching them the politics of
the country and making them aware of the cruelty of the apartheid regime. We did
not manage to carry forward our political programmes because there were no-go
areas. We could not go to areas such as Pafeni, Mpumalong, Dumi (?) because
these places were dominated by the UDF - places such a Diepkloof also. Now we
had to commit this act so that we can recruit people to join our organisation which
is AZAPO, to join in large numbers to fully understand the political situation at
home without any fighting.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you through Mr Tloubatla?
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MR TLOUBATLA: I'm through sir.
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mphoreng didn't AZAPO and the UDF have a sort of
common goal in that they were fighting against the apartheid regime?
MR MPHORENG: According to my political knowledge there was a common goal
between AZAPO and UDF, but the difference between the two organisations was
that there strategies to fight the apartheid regime were not the same, that is where
we differed with the UDF. We believed that the political problems in this country
were problems affecting mostly the Black people. The Black people were supposed
to be in charge of their own freedom. We did not see White people as having
contribution in this whole problem because they were part of the problem.
ADV BOSMAN: And today how do you feel, is AZAPO still in existence and is
the UDF still in existence and is there still this essential difference in approach?
MR MPHORENG: Things have change politically, we have a new government
elected by the people in their majority. AZAPO still exists, but there is no UDF
anymore.
ADV BOSMAN: And how do you feel about AZAPO's position in the community,
are you still at loggerheads with other groups within the community? When I say at
loggerheads I mean is there still strife between AZAPO and other groups in the
community? The reason why I'm asking you this question Mr Mphoreng is that the
Amnesty Committee must also take into consideration whether amnesty in a matter
like this would benefit the whole reconciliation process and I'm trying to ascertain
what you feelings are at the moment.
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman wants to know is, we know there will always be
political parties and no the same parties and the like, we accept there will always
be opposition in politics, contests for turf and all that but we want to know whether
there is still violent strife going on. Violent conflict between the two groups as it
were?
MR MPHORENG: Thank you Chairperson. I have mentioned that things have
changed. We have a new government elected by the majority of the people. There
are no conflicts anymore between AZAPO and UDF. The fights that we
experienced in the early '80s are no more.
ADV BOSMAN: Do you feel that the killing of these victims had in fact served
any purpose?
MR MPHORENG: Yes I believe the killing of these boys served a certain purpose.
We were members of a political organisation and we had to defend our members
and defend our organisation. There's no person who'd join a political organisation
and thereafter not be provided with security.
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CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink do you want to put questions now or after Mr Ameen?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK: Mr Chairman I'll do it now, I'll be
very brief. I want to go back to the interrogation of these six youths. You wanted to
find out whether they were supporters of UDF or members of UDF?
MR MPHORENG: We wanted to know whether they were members of UDF and
SOSCO.
MR BRINK: Right and on your evidence they admitted to being members or
supporters of UDF or SOSCO after they'd been beaten up?
MR MPHORENG: After I had assaulted Oscar he agreed that he
was a member of SOSCO.
MR BRINK: And the other people there, the remaining five, were they also beaten
up as a result of which they said they were supporters or members of SOSCO?
MR MPHORENG: According to the reports that I got from comrade Tamee and
comrade Sam Siema and comrade Cadalo (?) who were part of the interrogation,
they told me that the boys they assaulted agreed that they were members of
SOSCO.
MR BRINK: Now lastly, I just want to be absolutely clear, who gave the order that
these six youths should be murdered?
MR MPHORENG: I got the order from comrade Tamee (?) and comrade Sam
Siema.
MR BRINK: Can you tell me what their position was in AZAPO, what office they
held. Were they senior to you or were they ordinary members such as you were?
MR MPHORENG: Comrade Tamee (?) was a senior leader of the organisation. He
was in the national leadership of Azanian Student Leadership and comrade Sam
Siema was a senior member in AZAPO but I do not quite remember his position
but he was a very senior person in AZAPO.
MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Mphoreng.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen?
MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman I would prefer to defer cross examination. If the last
applicant could be heard, I will have a short consultation with my clients and then
cross examine all three of them.
CHAIRPERSON: Shouldn't we now go back to the initial procedure.
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MR AMEEN: We could, if I could have a short adjournment just to consult with
them, I won't be long.
CHAIRPERSON: Let me just confer with my colleagues.
MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Ameen, before you proceed. Mr Tloubatla it will be
recalled that your client has also made an application for amnesty in respect of the
killing of somebody who is believed was a security guard. Now you haven't led
evidence in chief on that and we are of the view that at any rate that particular
matter is not yet ripe for hearing, by reason of the fact that we are not satisfied that
proper investigation into the matter has been done. We feel extremely
uncomfortable to adjudicate on the particular application or aspect of you client's
application at this stage and unless you'd argue otherwise ... (inaudible - end of
tape) such time that some reasonable effort shall have been expended in the
investigation of certain aspects of the incident. You will of course no doubt diarise
the matter and keep the TRC on it's toes to (indistinct) the matter as soon as
possible so that your client's should have the matter disposed of. I do not believe
that the Amnesty Committee or the TRC would just indefinitely refrain or fail to
investigate the matter properly and thereby prolonging your client's agony. I think
you'd be entitled to demand of them to round up the investigations within a
reasonable time and have the matter set down, but for now unless you convince us
otherwise, we are of the view that that particular leg of your client's application,
that is his application in respect of the killing of the person I've referred to should
be stood down indefinitely.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman thank you. I do agree with Mr Chairman in that
respect, wholeheartedly I've got no problem. We have discussed the matter with
my learned colleagues and we might actually address the committee on the matter
later on but for the moment I think if the matter is stood down indefinitely I am
quite comfortable with that, I have no problems.
CHAIRPERSON: Does that apply to the third applicant as well?
MR TLOUBATLA: No it doesn't affect Mr Hlasa, it doesn't affect him at all. He
was not involved in that matter.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thandakubona is not involved either?
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thandakubona. I think Mr Thandakubona is involved. Yes
he is.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa is not involved in the security ... (intervention)
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CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Thandakubona and Mr Mphoreng are involved.
CHAIRPERSON: That is correct. We will therefore stand down both the
applications in respect of that particular incident and for the record and in order to
make issues quite clear, one of the considerations why we would like to place on
record that we are not adjudicating that incident today, one of the reason why we
want to place it on record is to leave the door open for the matter to be heard by a
differently constituted committee and therefore that's why we want to (indistinct)
have it off the rest of the proceedings.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen please proceed.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr
Mphoreng you've given evidence to this committee and your evidence can broadly
be divided into two parts, one which deals with the political conflict which you
spoke so much about and the other about the incident itself as a result of which you
are now applying for amnesty. Is that correct?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct.
MR AMEEN: Now let us go to the incident itself, let's confine yourself for the
moment just to the incident. When these six youths were first apprehended, were
you a part of the group of people that apprehended them?
MR MPHORENG: I was not part.
MR AMEEN: Where were you at the time that they were
apprehended?
MR MPHORENG: I was at Jeff's house in Orlando West.
MR AMEEN: I want to put it to you that there were two survivors out of the six
and that, depending on which one of them or both of them that testify, they will say
that the three applicants, that is the three of you present today applying for
amnesty, were the three people who actually accosted them near the Presbyterian
Church in Orlando and that a gun was pointed at them and that they were taken
under gun point to two cars about two streets away. What do you say to that?
MR MPHORENG: I agree that they were accosted in Orlando, but when they were
apprehended I was not present.
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MR AMEEN: Under threat of gunpoint again, they were forced to get into the two
cars and they were brought to you comrade Jeff Lingani's (?) house where they
found a group of about ten or eleven young men busy painting the house or
engaged in an activity which seemed to say that they were busy painting the house.
You were at the house at the time. Do you agree with that?
MR MPHORENG: There were people cleaning the house.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen, sorry, it's not clear in my mind. Are we here - is the
witness and yourself talking about two different things when you speak of being
accosted and apprehended.
MR AMEEN: No Your Worship it's the same thing.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright so Mr Mphoreng when this people were - you admit that
this young boys were arrested near the Presbyterian Church at gunpoint. You agree
with that?
MR MPHORENG: I agree with that.
CHAIRPERSON: But are you saying that you were not there or are you saying you
were there at that stage when that happened?
MR MPHORENG: When they were arrested at Orlando East I was not present.
CHAIRPERSON: Now when you say it is true that they were accosted in the
manner that Mr Ameen has said, why do you say, were you told by somebody that
that is in fact what happened and now you agree with it?
MR MPHORENG: What I agree with is that they were arrested at Orlando East
and some of my comrades had firearms. At that stage I was in Orlando West. My
comrades told me what happened.
MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chair. Alright, these youths were then brought to the
house and there were these other men who were present in the house. They will say
that they were taken into the kitchen of the house where there was an assortment of
weapons, including guns, an axe, iron bars a motor car aerial. Is that true?
MR MPHORENG: I request the Amnesty Committee to understand that we are
talking about an incident that took place twelve years back, it is therefore normal
not to remember all the details related to that incident. Nevertheless it doesn't mean
those things did not happen.
MR AMEEN: You have given quite detailed evidence about for example the
political conflict, remember all of that. By your own account you were involved in
a vicious assault on at least one of these youths and you don't remember the things
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that I'm talking about, that these weapons were there. Have you not thought of
these things during the course of your application for amnesty?
MR MPHORENG: I am not saying I do not remember some of the details, yes it is
true there was a firearm that was handled by me, yes it's true there was a bottle,
there was a hanger. Those are the details I remember well.
MR AMEEN: Was there a motor car aerial there as well?
MR MPHORENG: Those I details I cannot remember.
MR AMEEN: Now in the kitchen, were you the only one who assaulted these six
youths or were there others with you?
MR MPHORENG: When the assault started I was not alone. I have mentioned
earlier on, I do not remember whether we assaulted them in the kitchen or in the
bedroom, but I remember it was in the bedroom, it was myself, Kabelo ...
(intervention)
MR AMEEN: Could you just confine your answer to what happened in the kitchen
first please. I'll ask you again, in the kitchen were you the only one who assaulted
these youths or were there others with you who assaulted them?
MR MPHORENG: I do not remember well whether they were assaulted in the
kitchen but I remember they were assaulted in the bedroom.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you assault anyone of them in the kitchen?
MR MPHORENG: There is such a probability that I participated in the kitchen, as
well as in the kitchen, but the one that I remember well is the incident in the
bedroom.
CHAIRPERSON: But you do not recall assaulting them in the kitchen?
MR MPHORENG: It might have happened that I assaulted someone in the kitchen,
but this is something that happened twelve years back, I would therefore not be in
a position to remember all the details, it had been a long time since this incident,
but there is such a possibility that I started assaulting them from the kitchen to the
bedroom.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Ameen.
MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chair. I put it to you that the assault in the kitchen
took place for at least - for between an hour and an hour and a half, that people of
your group restrained these youths by holding them, stripped them of their
clothing, took away their money, their shoes, expensive shoes, expensive clothing,
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took away their watches and that they were given old clothes in return and that
they were restrained and assaulted, beaten with iron bars and the buts of guns and
the axe. Does that detail jog your memory, can you remember that?
MR MPHORENG: Mr Ameen if I say I do not remember what happened in the
kitchen, I do not mean this did not happen at all. It is possible that it might have
happened in general, they were heavily assaulted, yes I might agree, it might have
happened. If I say I do not remember it happening I don't actually mean it did not
take place.
MR AMEEN: In this group that were busy ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, sorry to interrupt you Mr Ameen. This question has two
legs, you have answered the first leg. The first leg of it was whether assault did
take place in the kitchen. Now you have told us that you don't remember assault
taking place in the kitchen. The second leg of the question is, which you haven't
responded to, which I think you should, is that this people were restrained in the
kitchen area for about one and a half hours, their clothes taken away, their watches
and they were given old clothes. That is the second leg of the question. Were their
clothes taken away from them, given old clothes, watches taken away, expensive
shoes taken away? That is the second leg of the question.
MR MPHORENG: Can I ask Mr Ameen a question before answering this. Is he
referring to three people?
MR AMEEN: Whether six or three or two or what, any number of people that you
remember had their clothes taken off or away from them, their watches, any
number of them.
MR MPHORENG: Truly speaking I do not remember whether such a thing
happened but still it does not rule the probability that it happened.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that it is possible you've forgotten that
somebody had his clothes taken off his body, his watch taken away, his shoes
taken away? Are you saying that you might have forgotten that?
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson I do not remember well, but I do not disagree that
it might have happened.
ADV SIGODI: Sorry, if their clothes were taken away and their watches and their
shoes, what would have been the purpose of taking away their clothes?
MR MPHORENG: I mentioned earlier on that I do not recall such an incident but I
am not disputing the fact that it might have happened, but I do not recall it
happening.
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ADV SIGODI: You're not answering the question. You say you do not dispute that
it might have happened, therefore you are saying there is a possibility that it might
have happened. What I'm asking is, if there is this possibility and you foresee that
it's something that could have happened in your presence, but you've forgotten
about it, what do you think would have been the purpose of taking away the shoes,
the watch, the clothes and stripping them?
MR MPHORENG: If ever it happened, if people are engaged in a state of war any
means brutal is used to get information. It might be one of the reasons why their
clothes were taken away from them.
ADV SIGODI: Where would you have obtained the old clothes from?
MR MPHORENG: I am talking of the probabilities, I'm not talking of something
that I am sure of, that is why I cannot give you a clear indication as to who, where
they got the clothes from, the old clothes.
ADV SIGODI: Do you remember what the victims were wearing that day?
MR MPHORENG: I do not remember.
MR MALAN: May I just ask you, what did Oscar, what was he wearing that day?
MR MPHORENG: I do not remember what kind of clothes he had on that day.
MR MALAN: Do you remember that he wore a belt?
MR MPHORENG: Yes, he had a belt.
MR MALAN: But you can't remember the clothes?
MR MPHORENG: I do not remember, I don't remember what kind of clothes they
were but he had clothes on.
ADV SIGODI: When the victims were brought to you, you said you could
remember them from the clothes that they wore when the were walking up and
down the street. Do you remember that?
MR MPHORENG: I remember.
ADV SIGODI: Do you remember who was wearing a T-shirt with an RMC
written, Release Mandela Campaign?
MR MPHORENG: The one who had an RMC Campaign T-shirt was in the other
bedroom with Oscar but on top of the T-shirt he had a shirt.
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ADV SIGODI: And do you remember who was wearing a T-shirt with a UDF
sign?
MR MPHORENG: Yes, he was also in the room with Oscar, they were three in
that room.
ADV SIGODI: But you can't remember what Oscar was wearing?
MR MPHORENG: Oscar had clothes, but I cannot remember the details as to what
kind of clothes they were.
ADV BOSMAN: Was he wearing a watch, was Oscar wearing a watch?
MR MPHORENG: I do not remember.
MR AMEEN: I put it to you earlier that the six youths had been kept in the
kitchen, assaulted, restrained, clothes taken off, all of that for about one to one and
a half hours and thereafter they were moved, separated into two groups and were
moved into two bedrooms. Is that correct?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct, they were split up into different rooms.
MR AMEEN: And you were in the group which has Oscar in that group, of which
Oscar was a part?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct.
MR AMEEN: Now you testified yesterday that you did not know these six youths,
that they were not know personally to you, that you had recognised them as being
part of a group which had been chanting and singing in front of Jeff Ngani's (?)
house, you didn't know them personally. Is that correct?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct, I did not know them personally.
MR AMEEN: How then do you keep referring to Oscar as if you know him
personally. You've referred to him in the way you manhandled him, in the way you
held him by his belt and in the way you pushed him into the boot and in the way
you took him personally and shot him. Tell me how you know him personally. Did
you know him personally?
MR MPHORENG: I did not personally know Oscar. During the interrogation I
came to know about his name, when I was interrogating him I got his name.
MR AMEEN: Did you get the names of the others during interrogation?
MR MPHORENG: I mentioned yesterday that I concentrated a lot on Oscar, that is
the reason why I remember him.
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MR AMEEN: Explain to this committee why in particular you concentrated on
Oscar. There were six people altogether, all of them according to you had been
seen as being part of the group which had intimidated you people and which
according to you had been responsible for burning your comrade's home. Why
chose on one of them in particular?
MR MPHORENG: The reason why I concentrated on Oscar - we split them up in
two groups because we wanted to do a thorough job. We didn't want to interrogate
them haphazardly, we had to separate them in two groups. The first group was in
the other room and we were in the other room and I assigned myself to Oscar and
other comrades of mine assigned themselves to the other victims. There isn't a
more specific reason. We wanted to make a thorough job that is why we split up.
MR AMEEN: So let me understand this clearly. You and your comrades spent
between an hour and an hour and a half beating them up in the kitchen, stripping
them and then you separate them to do a more thorough job. All you wanted to
know from them was whether they were members of the UDF, that is all you
wanted, an answer to one question.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you are mis-stating the evidence, that is not the evidence.
The evidence is not that all they wanted to know was whether they were UDF, the
evidence was they wanted to know if they were UDF, who had given them
instructions, if anybody, who are those people and so on and so forth.
MR AMEEN: My apologies Mr Chairman. I will rephrase that. One of the things
that you wanted to know was whether they were members of UDF. You have
already spent an hour, an hour and a half beating them up and then you separate
them again to make a more thorough job. What did you hope to get. Did you get
the answers by that time already?
MR MPHORENG: Mr Ameen I have details for what happened in the bedroom, I
will confine myself to those details because I remember them well. The reason
why we took such a long time to interrogate them was because they did not provide
information at the same time. It took them time to take out the information, that is
the reason why it took us long to interrogate them.
MR AMEEN: Can you remember Oscar now, as you sit can you picture him?
MR MPHORENG: Yes I can picture him.
MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman I have been given two photographs, there are four
people in these two photographs by my clients, Oscar is one of the people here. I
ask permission to show these photographs to the applicant and for him to identify
Oscar?
MR MPHORENG: I can recognise Oscar on this photo.
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MR AMEEN: And which one is he?
MR MPHORENG: The witness is pointing ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen you can approach the witness to satisfy yourself as to
what his identification is.
MR AMEEN: The identification is correct, ja. Now, in the bedroom you asked -
there were three people in your group or of the six youths, you and people with you
had divided them into two and you had three of them. The three of them I put it to
you was the late Oscar, Msilana and Mbulelo. Is that correct?
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just repeat the names?
MR AMEEN: The late Oscar, Msilana and Mbulelo.
MR MPHORENG: Repeat your question sir, I did not get it?
MR AMEEN: Part of the group of six youths, you took three of them with your
comrades into one bedroom and the three youths who were with you were the late
Oscar, the lat Mbulelo and the late Msilana?
MR MPHORENG: I do not know the other names of SOSCO members, I only
know Oscar.
MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman I would have a little bit of a difficulty here, I'm not
going to proceed on cross examining him on what happened in the bedroom
himself because I do not have any instructions on that. I will be putting a fair
number of questions on what happened in the other bedroom to Mr Hslasa. I will
now proceed from the time they then took the youths away from the house.
ADV BOSMAN: Can I just ask one question before you proceed please?
MR AMEEN: Thank you advocate.
ADV BOSMAN: Just tell my why Mr Mphoreng did you particularly assign Oscar
to yourself or let's look at it differently, how were these victims assigned. Who
assigned them or did each of you pick a victim to interrogate?
MR MPHORENG: We decided ourselves at that time, myself and the comrades
who were with me at that time.
ADV BOSMAN: Why then did you assign yourself to Oscar?
MR MPHORENG: It automatically happened. I don't think I have a specific reason
why I got into that room where Oscar was because we were splitting up, others got
into the other room and others went into the other.
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MR MALAN: Sorry just before you proceed again Mr Ameen, just on the question
that was put to you by Mr Ameen that you were found painting that house, you
said you were cleaning that house. Were you also repainting some of the walls or
anything. Was paint involved?
MR MPHORENG: The house had been burnt down, the curtains were burnt down
now there was smoke.
MR MALAN: The question was a straightforward question, can you remember
that part of the cleaning up was painting, that's the only question, it's a simple yes
or no.
MR MPHORENG: We were not primarily going to paint, we were going to gut the
house and be with the comrade because his house had been burnt.
MR MALAN: Mr Mphoreng the question is, were you also painting, even if that's
a small part of it, were you painting?
MR MPHORENG: I do not remember anything about painting, I do not remember
whether paint was there.
MR MALAN: Are you saying that there was not paint or is it possible that some of
the others or yourself might have been painting?
MR MPHORENG: There is such a possibility that some of us were painting, but I
do not remember.
MR MALAN: Thank you Mr Ameen.
MR AMEEN: Thank you. Mr Chairman with your permission I just want to retrace
and raise two issues which I have failed to do and which I want to bring up now.
The survivors who are present today will also say that there was drinking of liquor
while they were being assaulted by the group that was assaulting them. Was there
liquor on the premises and was there drinking by you people?
MR MPHORENG: I did not use liquor in 1986. There might be a probability that
there was liquor.
MR AMEEN: The bottle which you used with which to assault Oscar, what bottle
was it?
MR MPHORENG: I do not remember whether it was a beer bottle or a cooldrink
bottle, but it was a bottle.
MR AMEEN: How bit was it, what colour was it?
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MR MPHORENG: It was a big bottle but I do not remember the colour, I do not
want to commit myself but I do not remember the colour, it was a big bottle.
ADV BOSMAN: Where did you get the bottle from, do you remember that?
MR MPHORENG: It was in the house.
ADV BOSMAN: Where in the house was it, one doesn't usually keep a bottle in
the bedroom or was it in the bedroom?
MR MPHORENG: I think I found the bottle in the kitchen.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. During the interrogation of Oscar and the other two
in the bedroom, did the other people who were with you drink in the process of
interrogation?
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson this incident happened twelve years ago. This is
one of the details I do not remember very well, but there is such a probability,
maybe some of them were drinking.
CHAIRPERSON: Now you must tell me, on what basis do you reach that
probability? Why do you think that could possibly have been true?
MR MPHORENG: I bring it in because some of my comrades were drinking in
1986, they used to drink.
CHAIRPERSON: Drinking during interrogation, would it not be something that
you should really remember?
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson I do not remember.
MR AMEEN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mphoreng we, what has struck us during your evidence is
that you time and again use the word probable or probability and do you
understand there is a difference between possible and possibility on the one hand
and probable and probability on the other hand. Do you appreciate the difference?
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson can I please withdraw those words so that I
express myself thoroughly.
CHAIRPERSON: So that you express yourself well?
MR MPHORENG: Yes.
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CHAIRPERSON: Well you see you must be careful in using words the meaning of
which you are not very sure because you would mislead us unintentionally but still
you would mislead us. Yes Mr Ameen.
MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman I have a bit of a problem with that. He has used those
words in relation to the evidence relating to clothing earlier on. As I sit here I
cannot recall specific examples but he definitely has used them. Does he want to
correct all that previous evidence. I also want to put it to the witness that when he
has pressed on certain matters he uses one of two techniques, either not
remembering or saying that it is probable and conceding that. Now part of the
purpose of this hearing is to establish the truth and to have full disclosure from
him. These are matters I have to raise in my address but I think I should draw them
to the attention of the committee and to the witness at this stage.
MR MALAN: Chair perhaps if the interpreters could help us, because on occasion
there was reference to the concept of possible, now did the interpreters use
different words in interpreting it or was it put in the language, in the Tswana that
he's giving evidence in, in two different forms. We need in a sense a reference to
the original language of the witness.
INTERPRETER: Chairperson the witness used words, two words possibility and
probability and each time he uses probability the interpretation came out as
probability, each time he uses possibility the interpretation came out as possibility.
MR MALAN: Thank you very much Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen I don't know, you may decide what to do but I think
for my part, I'm not terribly worried or perturbed or merit to whatever meaning the
witness may attach to the word probable because even to some lawyers, the
concept of probable or probability is a very difficult one so I'm not very keen to tie
a witness to a technical meaning of the word probable.
MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman I would go along with that.
CHAIRPERSON: When you say - well let me ask you this, just to clear this once
and for all. It was put to you that these people were assaulted in the kitchen. What
is your answer to that?
MR MPHORENG: When I started assaulting these people we were in the bedroom
not in the kitchen, but there is a possibility that they might have been assaulted in
the kitchen - let me say, if I say I do not recall having been assaulted in the kitchen,
I do not dispute that, I remember what happened in the bedroom that is where I
was involved.
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CHAIRPERSON: So whenever you use the word probable or probability, we
should understand you as conceding that it is possible, such and such a thing could
have happened?
MR MPHORENG: The word that I am using now it is correct, it happened in the
kitchen but I remember the details of the bedroom where I took part.
MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now, let us go to the burning of the
house. You've described the house as having been burnt. Earlier today you
described that it was gutted, can you tell us exactly how badly the house was burnt,
if it was burnt because my clients, the two survivors, will say that on that day they
did not notice any signs of burning, any signs that the house had been burnt that
day. They did hear that the house was burnt a few days after the assault, on the
Tuesday following the assault?
MR MPHORENG: In the morning when I arrived at Jeff's place, after I he had
informed me that his house was burned, it was not the whole house that was
burned down, the bedroom, the main bedroom, was burned down, the curtains
were burned down and when the house is burning there will be smoke and that is
why there was smoke on the walls. Maybe it's the reason why one of the witnesses
say there was painting, but I do not recall that point clearly.
MR AMEEN: Now you've testified that you were given order to kill these youths
and that the two people who gave you ... (inaudible - end of tape). Is that true? The
two people I'm referring to are comrade Sam and comrade Tamee.
MR MPHORENG: Comrade Sam and comrade Tamee gave me an order that these
comrades from SOSCO be shot. Now the order was issued out after sunset. When
they arrived we brief them, we told them that they were comrades from SOSCO
and we gave them the information that we got from them.
MR AMEEN: Could you just bear with me Mr Chairman?
MR MALAN: While Mr Ameen is looking at his notes, who gave you the order,
Sam or Tamee or did they speak simultaneously?
MR MPHORENG: They did not speak simultaneously but they gave me orders.
MR MALAN: But the order to shoot and kill somebody, you need one order from
one person. Why would two have given you the order?
MR MPHORENG: The order came out from the two of them, they were my
commanders. Can I explain further that comrade Tamee and comrade Sam were
underground members of AZANLA, that is why I keep on saying that they are the
two who gave me orders.
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MR MALAN: No Mr Mphoreng my question is, somebody said to you go and kill
these youths or go and kill Oscar or whatever your order was. Somebody told you
that. It couldn't have been both of them speaking at the same moment. It would
probably not have been both of them giving you an order. One of them would have
said it or at least said it first. Who said it first, can you remember?
MR MPHORENG: Comrade Tamee (?) spoke out and it was confirmed by
comrade Sam who said yes, it must happen.
MR MALAN: Why is it so difficult to get that information out of you?
MR MPHORENG: Maybe I did not understand your question.
MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman if I can get some assistance from the committee. My
impression was that the evidence given by Mr Mphoreng earlier, I can't find it in
my notes, was that comrade Sam and Tamee were present when the assaults took
place. Is that the understanding of the committee?
The evidence by him in particular.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm not sure, my vague recollections have been perhaps not
when the assault took place, but when the interrogation took place, I'm not sure I'll
have to check on that.
MR TLOUBATLA: Perhaps I could come in slightly. I remember asking that very
same question to Mr Mphoreng. What he mentioned specifically was that when he
arrived at the house Tamee and Sam were present, but they subsequently left and
came back later but in terms of when they left and when they came back I don't
think I took it further than that. But I remember, that's what I asked him.
ADV BOSMAN: If I can assist you Mr Chairman, according to my notes, the
applicant said that Nani and Kabela were with him and Jeff was also present and
the other three in the other room were Pitso, Khani and Joey. This is what my notes
say. A little further on he says particularly that Sam Siema and - I missed the name
- arrived later, I take that was (indistinct).
MR AMEEN: Okay. Alright just to clarify your evidence, can you tell us when
comrade Sam and comrade Tamee arrived at Jeff's house. They had been there
earlier in the morning when it was discovered that the house was burnt, they then
left. Now the youths had been brought to the house - from that time up to the time
they left, can you tell us at which point comrade Tamee and Comrade Sam arrived?
MR MPHORENG: When I arrived at Jeff's place in the morning I found comrade
Sam and comrade Tamee already there but they left for the day, they were not
present. They came back the second time when it was getting dark.
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MR AMEEN: Did they participate in the interrogation?
MR MPHORENG: When the interrogation took place comrade Sam and comrade
Tamee were not present. We were the interrogators, yes they arrived a little later,
we brief them and they came in and when they got in they just kicked them but the
better part of the interrogation was conducted by ourselves.
MR AMEEN: Now the interrogation is over, the assaults are over, you've received
your order to kill these youths and you are now preparing to execute your order.
Your comrade Hlasa, the first applicant, testified yesterday that all six youths were
taken, and you were present when this happened, that all six youths were taken to
comrade Glen's house in Shawella. You have given a different version, that you
took them directly to the spot in Shawella where they were killed. How do you
explain that difference, both of you were part of the same squad carrying out the
order to kill, we have one version from Mr Hlasa and we have another version
from you. Which is the correct version?
MR MPHORENG: When I said we went straight to the spot where we shot these
comrades and on the other hand comrade Hlasa saying they went to comrade's
house, it takes me back to what I said earlier on that we are relating an incident that
took place twelve years ago, I remember taking them straight to the spot where we
shot them and comrade Hlasa recalled having gone to comrade Glen's house but I
remember going straight to the spot, but there is a possibility that we went to
comrade Glen's house but I do not remember it clearly, it's human to forget. This
happened twelve years back.
MR AMEEN: Mr Mphoreng it's a very simple and straightforward question, an
answer with a yes or a no. Did you or did you not go to comrade Glen's house with
the youths that were with you.
MR MPHORENG: I did not go to comrade Glen's house.
MR AMEEN: Are you then saying that comrade Hlasa is lying?
MR MPHORENG: I am not saying he is lying, I said there is such a possibility that
I forgot that little detail, I do not remember it well.
MR AMEEN: He also said that the reason for going there was to caucus on how to
carry out the order because comrade Glen was a senior member of an AZAPO
affiliated union. Yet you say that you had already received orders on how to do the
killing from comrade Sam and comrade Tamee. Can you explain that?
MR MPHORENG: When we left Orlando West an order had already been taken
out that we were going to Shawella, but the exact spot where they were supposed
to be killed was not clear and I was just following the order at that time.
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MR AMEEN: My clients, the two survivors, will say that they were taken, that all
six youths, the two of them and the four deceased were taken to a house in
Shawella, they did not know whose house it was but they were taken to a house in
Shawella and from there they were taken to an open veld near a beer hall where
they were shot. What do you say to that?
MR MPHORENG: I do not dispute that it happened, but I do not recall it.
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mphoreng there was also testimony by you co-applicant, Mr
Hlasa, yesterday that when the order was issued it was said that they have already
been hurt, something to that effect, and now they must be killed. Do you recall
that?
MR MPHORENG: I recall that, I recall that they were injured.
ADV BOSMAN: Can you more or less just formulate what was said about them
having been hurt? Can you more or less remember the words that were said that
they have already been injured or hurt?
MR MPHORENG: I remember that they were injured because of the interrogation,
I saw them that they were injured and I also took part in the interrogation.
ADV BOSMAN: No but what I'm referring to is that Mr Hlasa said somebody, it
may have been the two leaders, had said: they have now been injured so now they
must be killed. Do you recall that?
MR MPHORENG: What I remember is that these people were killed because of an
order issued out by comrade Tamee and comrade Sam, they were not killed
because they were injured already, we were just implementing an order issued out
by our senior members.
MR MALAN: You are saying you don't remember having ever heard any words on
the line: they have been injured now, badly injured, they must now be killed. You
don't remember such words?
MR MPHORENG: I do not remember those words, I remember the order being
issued out.
MR AMEEN: You also testified yesterday that the youths who were being
assaulted did not scream when they were assaulted, that they just took the assault
passively. You didn't use the word passively, but they just took the assault without
screaming. Do you still stand by what you said?
MR MPHORENG: I still stand by what I said. I pointed him with a gun, I said
once you scream I'm going to shoot at you. I did not want him to scream so that the
neighbours could hear what was happening.
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MR AMEEN: The survivors will testify that there was loud music being played on
the radio and that this sound of the loud music stifled their screams or covered up
their screams, that they were in agony, that they were in pain, that they did respond
by screaming and trying to protect themselves. What do you say to that?
MR MPHORENG: There is that possibility that the music was playing high.
MR AMEEN: Mr Mphoreng, let's not dice with each other, let's not play with each
other. This is a serious matter, you come up with possibilities each time. Tell us
yes or no. Was the music playing loudly, were these youths screaming when they
were being assaulted? The more - can I just encourage you - the more honest your
answer, the more disclosure you make, the more clear your answers, the better
your chances of getting amnesty.
MR MPHORENG: I agree the music played high.
ADV SIGODI: How badly was this house burnt?
MR MPHORENG: (no interpretation).
ADV SIGODI: Was it burnt by means of a petrol bomb?
MR MPHORENG: Yes, we found petrol bombs.
ADV SIGODI: And was it, did it come in through the roof of the roof of the
window, through the roof or through the window, the petrol bomb?
MR MPHORENG: The windows were shuttered, it means therefore that the petrol
bombs went through the windows.
ADV SIGODI: And was it electrified this house? Did it have electricity?
MR MPHORENG: I do not remember well, but I believe there was electricity. Let
me put it this way, there was electricity.
ADV SIGODI: Are you sure?
MR MPHORENG: I do not have full evidence as to whether there was electricity
in the house, I'm not sure.
ADV SIGODI: Where Jeff stayed or the area, was it electrified then or was it not
electrified?
MR MPHORENG: There is electricity in Mpumalong.
ADV BOSMAN: Was it there then, was there electricity in Mpumalong then?
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MR MPHORENG: Yes there was electricity then.
ADV SIGODI: Do you know if the petrol bomb destroyed the electricity?
MR MPHORENG: I do not remember that point Madam.
ADV SIGODI: And this radio that was playing, do you still remember it?
MR MPHORENG: I mentioned earlier on that there was music, now it takes us
back to the point that Jeff's house was electrified. ADV SIGODI: Thank you.
MR MALAN: Could you just on the question - you were asked how badly was the
house damaged by the petrol bomb and your response was petrol bombs, you
referred to more. How many petrol bombs were used in this attack?
MR MPHORENG: I do not know how many petrol bombs were used.
MR MALAN: Do you know whether it's more than one?
MR MPHORENG: I think it was more than one, but I do not know how many
there were.
MR MALAN: Did you see any remains of a petrol bomb, how did you know it was
a petrol bomb?
MR MPHORENG: There were broken bottles smelling petrol.
MR AMEEN: Mr Mphoreng can I ask you, where is Jeff Lingani today?
MR MPHORENG: Jeff he lives somewhere in the Vaal.
MR AMEEN: Does he know about this application of yours for amnesty?
MR MPHORENG: Yes he knows about it.
MR AMEEN: And did you or your attorney try and get hold of him to support this
application by giving evidence here today?
MR MPHORENG: According to my knowledge Jeff has applied for amnesty.
MR AMEEN: Comrade Sam and comrade Tamee, where are they?
MR MPHORENG: They have since died.
MR AMEEN: Being and adopting a very cynical attitude, I put it to you that you
used their deaths to say that they are the ones who gave you orders. That you
actually did not receive any orders from these people.
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MR MPHORENG: It is true that I found my orders from comrade Tamee and
comrade Sam. The people who were active in politics in those years know comrade
Tamee (?) and comrade Sam Siema. Comrade Tamee was the leader of the
Azanian Student Movement, he was involved in politics. The two of them were
underground members of AZANLA.
MR AMEEN: Can I interrupt you. I am not questioning their political credentials,
I'm putting it to you that you are being opportunistic, you know that they are dead,
you know that they cannot be called here to give evidence and you are using their
senior positions within the organisation to say that you were given orders by them
and so absolve yourself of an extremely cowardly deed, a criminal deed. What do
you say to that?
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson what Mr Ameen is saying is not true. What
happened was a political situation, unfortunately comrade Tamee is dead and I do
not involve him just because he is dead. I got the orders from comrade Tamee and
comrade Sam.
MR AMEEN: What I can't understand is that if the order was given for these
people to be killed and the order were included to say go and kill them in Shawella,
your colleague the first applicant has testified that they still went to, not a member
of AZAPO, comrade Glen, who was a senior member of an affiliated organisation,
someone outside of the organisation, for guidance on where to kill. I put it to you
that your version is not true, that you are lying to this amnesty committee.
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson I have told the full truth. Mr Ameen sees it
differently because - I am aware that the TRC will consider your application if you
give a full disclosure. I have given a full disclosure, I have even given out who
gave instructions.
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Ameen can I just come in here please. Tell me Mr Mphoreng
when comrade Tamee and Sam, when they left that morning did they say that they
would be coming back? You told us that they left and they came back later, when
they left did they say where they were going?
MR MPHORENG: When they left they did not tell us where they were going to
but the indicated that they will come back to check the situation.
ADV BOSMAN: Now if they had not come back, these people were badly injured,
what would you have done?
MR MPHORENG: I was a trained soldier, I worked through orders. An order of
killing a person it's a serious order, I would have never taken that decision on my
own.
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ADV BOSMAN: Who else would you have consulted. Let's just - I know it's
hypothesis, but let's assume they were arrested on their way and they could not
return and you were there sitting with these six seriously injured persons, what
would you have done about it?
MR MPHORENG: If they had not come back we were going to consult with other
senior members of our organisation, would have explained to them the situation
that we have members of SOSCO here, they have given us information, what do
we do then.
MR MALAN: Could I just ask you here, you say killing a person is serious and
you work through orders, you're a trained soldier. At the time, according to you
evidence, if I remember correctly, you said you had two weeks para-military
training by comrades Siema and Tamee. Is that correct, you didn't have any other
formal training when you say you were a soldier?
MR MPHORENG: That is the only para-military training I had received then.
MR MALAN: Yes and if you took it seriously and only operated on orders, who
gave you the orders to manhandle the youngsters and to attack and assault them
and hit them with a bottle and break the bottle and stab him with the bottle, who
gave you those orders?
MR MPHORENG: When comrade Tamee and comrade Sam trained me in the
early months of 1986, they had taught me that if there were issues involving people
I shouldn't take decisions on myself but with orders such as interrogating people,
assaulting them those are decisions I can make on my own. There was a general
order from the senior leadership of the organisation to defend ourselves because
the UDF was fighting with AZAPO at that time. Such orders were issued out by
senior members of AZAPO organisation.
MR MALAN: So are you saying then to us that the assault and the hitting of at
least Oscar with the bottle and stabbing of him with the broken bottle, those were
decisions that you took by yourself, you acted on your own, it wasn't under
instructions. Is that what you're saying?
MR MPHORENG: Let me put it this way. The top leadership issued out a general
order ... (intervention)
MR MALAN: I heard about the order please Mr Mphoreng, I understand that, I
understand the broad order that you could take the decisions yourself. Now the
assault that was a decision that you took yourself in terms of what you believed to
be the broad mandate?
MR MPHORENG: It was a decision taken by myself ... (intervention)
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MR MALAN: So the assault on the youths wasn't an assault in terms of order, but
in terms of this broad mandate of self defense? I just want to get the frame of the
political background which you sketched to us.
MR MPHORENG: The comrades did not issue out an order to assault them, an
order was that they should be shot.
MR MALAN: Okay, so the assault was just your decision there on the spot?
MR MPHORENG: That order was related to the general order of the organisation.
MR AMEEN: Thank you. Mr Mphoreng I want to put it to you that the
information you say you got from the youths - and at least my clients who are now
the survivors of those six - they will say that they did not give you any of the
information you claim to have got from them, that they did not admit to being UDF
members, they did not admit to burning the house, they did not admit to (indistinct)
any other houses for purposes of burning or any similar information which you got
from them, the will deny that. What do you say to that? Is there a possibility that
that is true?
MR MPHORENG: I would not agree with what they say because we got
information out of them during the interrogation that they were members of
SOSCO and they burnt the house and the reason for being in the vicinity of
Orlando, they were going to (indistinct) for the purpose of attacking our homes
later that evening.
MR AMEEN: You said earlier in your evidence that comrade Sam and comrade
Tamee shot the other two youths in your group, you shot Oscar and the two of
them, Sam and Tamee, shot the other two. You were arrested with your co-
applicants and and (indistinct). Why were the other two not arrested? Do you know
if they were arrested?
MR MPHORENG: They were not arrested.
MR AMEEN: Right, why not, do you have an explanation for why they were not?
MR MPHORENG: It's because when we were being fetched by the police from
Protea for interrogation, we did not mention their names, we did not mention that
they gave us orders.
ADV SIGODI: Do you know - sorry Mr Ameen - do you know how the police go
to know that it was you who killed the SOSCO members?
MR MPHORENG: The police came to my hiding place with Jeff, they might have
known it from Jeff.
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ADV SIGODI: And why would Jeff not have mentioned Tamee and Sam, do you
know?
MR MPHORENG: I do not know, but what was happening was that when the
comrades were arrested, we did not give information related to our activities.
ADV BOSMAN: Who was arrested first, you or Mr Hlasa?
MR MPHORENG: I was arrested first, that was after Jeff.
ADV BOSMAN: And how did it come about that Mr Hlasa was arrested, who
mentioned his name to the police?
MR MPHORENG: When the police arrested me they had his name already, they
were searching for him.
MR AMEEN: Now, you had been questioned by members of the committee and by
your attorney about the purpose of the killing of these youths and the attempted
murder of the other two and you testified that you wanted to send out a message to
the community. I want to dispute that and I want to say to you that the reason you
killed these youths and attempted to kill the two survivors, was that you had
abducted them, very very severely assaulted them, taken away their clothes and
money and watches and shoes, all these are criminal acts and they were now so
badly injured that the only way that you wanted to escape the law catching up with
you was to execute them and that is what you and your co-applicants did. That this
had nothing to do with the political conflict which you so clearly remembered,
details of which you so clearly remember, yet details of this incident you have
chosen to forget or not remember. That is the reason you killed these people?
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson that is not so. Our act is not a criminal issue, it
was a political issue involving AZAPO and UDF. We did not just randomly shoot
these people, we confirmed their membership to SASCO after the interrogation.
Mr Ameen I do not agree with you when you say our activities were just criminal
activities, this was a political activity.
MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR AMEEN
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute, let me just find out from members of the
committee whether they've got any questions to put to the witness so that you
should have the last word in re-examination.
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MR MALAN: I have two brief questions. You gave evidence that when you went
to execute Oscar and the other two in your group, that you were the first to shoot
Oscar, before the other two youngsters were shot by Tamee and Sam.
MR MPHORENG: That is correct, that's how I put it.
MR MALAN: And you also gave evidence that after the shooting you turned back
to the car, after you had shot Oscar you walked back?
MR MPHORENG: I remember putting it that way.
MR MALAN: So you didn't witness the shooting by Tamee and Sam of the other
two victims?
MR MPHORENG: I did not witness that. I only heard gunshots on my way to the
car.
MR MALAN: Did you look back when you heard the gunshots?
MR MPHORENG: It was dark, even if I had turned back I would have not been in
a position to see what was happening.
MR MALAN: The three of you took the three youngsters out of the boot of the car
simultaneously, you walked them to the hill simultaneously. Is that correct, it
wasn't one by one, the three of you went together with the three youngsters, with
the three boys?
MR MPHORENG: When we arrived there I was the first to grab Oscar by his belt
and other comrades were coming behind with other victims.
MR MALAN: Alright and then you also gave evidence that the political purpose,
apart from conscientising the people, that you were teaching them the politics of
the country and that there were no-go areas. The impression of that purpose is not
one of a defense purpose, of a passive defense purpose but a very active one of
going out, almost like a strike force. Could you clear my mind there? There were
no-go areas, it was important for you to liberate those areas to AZAPO access or at
least then to switch it to make that no-go areas for the UDF. Was that the political
purpose?
MR MPHORENG: This was the situation: AZAPO was not on the offensive side.
When this conflict between UDF and AZAPO started our comrades from AZAPO
were mostly injured, now we were doing this to defend our organisation, to defend
our comrades. We were not on an offensive side, we were on the defensive side.
MR MALAN: I understand that but I talk about this specific action. If you believe
that you were defending yourselves I understand that but how were you defending
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yourselves, by passive resistance or by active intervention. I mean if the area's a
no-go area and you want to liberate that area or you want access to AZAPO in that
area, how can you achieve that goal by simply defending yourselves?
MR MPHORENG: We were defending ourselves as AZAPO, defending ourselves
so that we can have a political movement in the areas dominated by these people. I
have mentioned earlier on that when a person belongs to your organisation, such a
person must feel free and must feel protected.
MR MALAN: My question is this about your concept about defensive and
offensive activities. If an area for AZAPO is a no-go area, how do you get there,
how do you get in there, you get in there by moving in there and have some
activity and action there probably some domination, some occupation exerted,
show yourself, attack people. Isn't that what you were doing?
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson that is now how we did things. No-go areas were
very dangerous for our members. We were defending ourselves, for instance what
happened at comrades Jeff's place, we went there because his house had been
attacked the previous night ... (intervention)
MR MALAN: Was his house in a no-go area?
MR MPHORENG: The area was dominated by UDF.
MR MALAN: And then, just one question again. I have the same difficulty in the
sense as Mr Ameen. You're very clear on the political conflict, but you're not very
clear on the incident. I take it this was the only execution style killing that you
were involved in or was this one of a number in the sense that you simply haven't
applied for others. You don't have to answer this question but if this was indeed the
only execution style killing that you were involved in, wouldn't you have
remembered it much more clearly?
MR MPHORENG: I remember the main details of the act that brings me here. It
was the first incident that I took part in.
MR MALAN: Thank you Chair.
FURTHER CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman if I can
have the indulgence of the committee I've just had a look at the application itself
and there's a couple of questions I'd like to put from the application of Mr
Mphoreng and then there was - I've just been reminded about an aspect of the
interrogation which I want to put directly to Mr Mphoreng. Mr Mphoreng could
you please turn to page 16 of your application. ... (inaudible - end of tape) before I
do that, can I just ask you is that your handwriting?
MR MPHORENG: This is my handwriting.
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MR AMEEN: And you wrote this personally without any assistance from anyone?
MR MPHORENG: I was alone when I wrote this.
MR AMEEN: Thank you. You say here and I read: "In the course of the day as we
were cleaning the debris a group of about fifteen people kept on singing
intimidating songs and passed
intimidating remarks at us. They were ignored because confrontation was the last
thing we were looking for". Yet that very afternoon when these youths were
brought to you, according to your version, and I want to repeat this, you assaulted
them and then killed them. How does that tie in with your stated objective here that
they were they were ignored because confrontation was the last thing we were
looking for? In the morning you are not seeking confrontation, in the afternoon you
go all out to interrogate, abuse, assault and kill. Explain the change in attitude that
took place, that caused you to do this?
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson it was not AZAPO's programme to go around
assaulting and killing people. We were in a state of war that was between AZAPO
and UDF, now the reason why these comrades were assaulted in the late afternoon
and ended up being killed is that some of them were found in Orlando and they
agreed that they were going to (indistinct) our homes so that they come back in the
evening and attack us that is what made us change our attitude.
MR AMEEN: In the morning when your attitude was still that you were not
seeking confrontation, there was still a state of war between UDF and AZAPO. Is
that correct?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct.
MR AMEEN: In the afternoon - let me just go back a bit - if your attitude was not
one of confrontation it was one of reconciliation, it was one of making peace. Is
that not correct?
MR MPHORENG: When war takes place it's not easy to make a peace treaty ...
(intervention)
MR AMEEN: Can I interrupt please. Mr Mphoreng, in the morning you were not
confrontational, you did not want to look for confrontation. If I follow that through
it would be correct for me to say that you were reconciliatory in your attitude, you
wanted peace. In spite of that in the broad framework there was a state of war
between the two organisations. Would you agree with me on that?
MR MPHORENG: I agree with you.
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MR AMEEN: In the afternoon these youths are brought to you and you say that
they gave you this information which angered you so much that they were
(indistinct) and they were going to burn your houses. You had them in you power,
they were at your mercy. Could you not have extended mercy to them and spoken
peace to them and said look we've got you here, you are under our power, why
don't we talk peace. Could you not have done that. Did that ever cross your mind?
MR MPHORENG: The situation did no allow. During war you don't talk peace.
MR AMEEN: The point I'm trying to make is that that statement of yours in your
application that they were ignored because confrontation was the last thing we
were looking for is intended specifically to mislead this committee and does not
reflect you true intention or you true state of mind on that morning. I want to
proceed and go further ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: You must be careful with what you're saying because unless you
contextualise it, it could well mean that he didn't want - there were only about four
or five of them in the house and the last thing four or five people could have
wanted to have that morning was a confrontation with twenty people.
MR AMEEN: I take the point Mr Chair. I want to put it to you that as far as your
state of mind about confrontation is concerned, that that is not the case. Even
though there were fifteen to twenty people, you may not have wanted to confront
them, but had that been your intention of being non-confrontational, you would
have carried on that attitude of being reconciliatory when the youths were brought
to you in the afternoon and there were a lesser number of people to deal with. I
also not a factual inaccuracy in the second paragraph of that page. We have been
talking about six youths who were brought to the house and here, on the fifth line,
you say: "Within the vicinity of some of our homes in Orlando East the same faces
were spotted but the number had been reduced to four". Can you explain that
mistake? Second paragraph of page 16 Mr Chairman.
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson yes I see. This might be a detail that I have
omitted. I mentioned earlier on that this is an event that took place fifteen years
back. I cannot remember some of the things, I am saying four here instead of a
certain number. I did not clearly point out here, I have forgotten, this happened
many years ago.
MR AMEEN: I want to refer you to page 11 of your application.
MR MALAN: Sorry Mr Ameen, I find this very difficult. There must be a different
reason, clearly when you drafted this statement you weren't under the impression
that there were only four youths, clearly you must have known then - we're talking
about two years ago - you recollection from the time you wrote this letter till today
would not have changed from four to six. There must be a different reason maybe
it's simply a misprint, you wrote four instead of six but I don't believe for one
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moment that two years ago you would have written four, believing it to be four
whilst now being able to tell us about the two rooms and the groups of three and
three and the killing in three and three. Was it, it might have been a glaring
mistake, but not a different memory. Chair if I may just follow up with Mr
Ameen's permission ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I think let's give the witness - just read that paragraph to
yourself before we ... (intervention)
MR MALAN: Page 16.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson I see the point that is being referred to. I was
recollecting the event that took place in 1986. Yes there is a possibility that I was
not accurate with numbers.
ADV SIGODI: Sorry, at the time that you drafted this statement, did you know
how many people had died as a result of the shooting?
MR MPHORENG: Yes I knew that there were four.
MR AMEEN: With the permission of the Chair. Mr Mphoreng I refer you to page
11 of this application, point 12.c.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr - just a minute - I assume it's Mr Thandakubona, it is not
desirable that you should speak to the witness while he is in the process of
testifying. I have noticed that on one or two occasions you have said something to
him, you must not do that. Neither is it in the interest of anybody, not even in the
interest of the witness applicant himself, because you will just confuse him but at
any rate it's undesirable of you not to do that if you were in fact doing it and you
should refrain from doing that.
MR THANDAKUBONA: Sorry Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry I interrupted you Mr Ameen.
MR AMEEN: Not a problem sir. Page 11, point 12.c. If prosecution followed, on
which charge - now you've mentioned five counts of murder, two counts of
attempted murder. Now we know that of the five counts of murder the one relates
to a security guard which is not a subject of this enquiry, so that's four counts of
murder and two of attempted murder. There were two other people that you tried to
kill, they were part of the group that you brought there and yet in your statement
you made this material mistake, call it that. I'm putting it to you that you were
actually - while you were alone drafting this letter, your state of mind was that you
did not want to be fully open with this commission, with this committee. You've
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spent a fair amount of time on the political background and a little bit on the
incident itself and at the end of that letter you say that you are prepared to tender
your apology. You don't do that. You are willing to meet the family, but the
apology is not contained here. To me it shows a state of mind where you haven't
really acknowledged the extent of your wrong doing. On evidence you have given
before this commission, I put it to you that you really haven't understood the
purpose of this application.
MR MALAN: Mr Ameen, with respect, it's not necessary to be sorry in order to get
amnesty, it's necessary to make a full disclosure.
MR AMEEN: I withdraw that Mr Malan.
The last point that I want to raise ... (intervention)
ADV SIGODI: Sorry Mr Ameen don't you want an answer to what you've just put
to the witness, to the applicant?
MR AMEEN: If he will answer, yes.
ADV SIGODI: Yes, let him answer.
MR AMEEN: Thank you advocate.
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson can I please read the last paragraph of my
statement? I think this paragraph will respond to Mr Ameen's question. This is how
it stands, I will read it in English: "I want deeply and sincerely regret the incident
because precious human life was lost in line with the objective of the TRC it is for
this reason that I made a voluntary disclosure for the exact truth to be known. I am
ready and truthfully willing to meet the family of the deceased to tender my
apology. I've made a mistake and the paragraph that I want to respond is about this
one. I think the committee has that.
ADV SIGODI: Yes I would like to get your response in relation to your
application on page 11. In fairness to you, were you not charged with the - before
you left the country in the indictment with four murders and two attempted
murders. You had seen the indictment before you left, you appeared in court, had
you appeared in court before you left?
MR MPHORENG: Yes I appeared before the court.
ADV SIGODI: Had you been charged when you left?
MR MPHORENG: These counts, the counts that appeared here made us go to the
court.
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ADV SIGODI: I see because from what we have, it's four counts of murder and
two counts of attempted murder in the indictment that we've got on page 28. And
then you also add the security so perhaps is that why you put five counts of murder
and two counts of attempted murder in your application, in the formal application,
in the form? Can you look at your form, the one you submitted to the TRC. It was
paragraph 12.c, page 11 of the said bundle. Page 11. Because Mr Ameen I don't
know if I misunderstood you, you should have implied that he put five counts of
murder and two counts of attempted murder if he was involved in all of them
simultaneously, I thought that was the impression you gave to the committee, I just
wanted to clarify that for the record.
MR AMEEN: No, the five counts of murder includes the security guard and that's
not part of this hearing. So that's four count of murder for this hearing and two
counts of attempted murder, six people were involved. What I am saying is that he
saying that there were only four people in his letter, he only makes reference to
four people.
ADV SIGODI: Is that the discrepancy that you are trying to show?
MR AMEEN: Yes.
ADV BOSMAN: Can I just follow up on that. When did you learn for the first time
Mr Mphoreng that two people had survived the shooting, because I take it that you
were under the impression that all six were dead?
MR MPHORENG: I heard in Protea when we were arrested.
CHAIRPERSON: So this information on page 16, you got it from - did you get it
from your comrades or is it personal observation that people, some of them when
they were seen in the vicinity of Orlando East and the like?
MR MPHORENG: This is the information I got from the comrades.
MR AMEEN: Thank you. Right Mr Mphoreng I just want to go back to the assault
and the division of the groups into three, into two different bedrooms. You were
with one group of people, right ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Before you do that I'm going to ask you, of your survivors
where were they, in which group were they?
MR AMEEN: I'm coming to that Mr Chairman, the survivors were in another
group, were in Hlasa's group right, but I've just been instructed that there was
movement inbetween, interchange, that the applicant's were moving from one
group to another, that they did not confine themselves to one group and that is
what I want to put to him and I want to put to him certain other atrocities that he
has (indistinct) committed. Right, I put it to you earlier and I'm repeating that, that
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in your group at the start there was Msilana, Mbulelo and Oscar, all of whom are
deceased and that in Mr Hlasa's group, the first applicant, there were the two
survivors and Vuyani. I also now want to put it to you that there was movement of
people assaulting from one group to another and that you were one of the people
that was moving from one group to another and that in the course of this moving
from one room to another room during the assault, you used a plier on the genitals,
on the private parts of these youths, including the two survivors and that you used
it in such a way to cause them pain and degradation. Do you admit this, because
that is what they will say?
CHAIRPERSON: Who, him as an individual used the pliers?
MR AMEEN: As well as the others but him particularly, I'm directing the question
to him.
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson I agree we used brutal ways to get information
from these people.
CHAIRPERSON: The question is not whether you used brutal ways, the question
is did you use pliers?
MR MPHORENG: A used a pair of pliers.
MR AMEEN: Explain to this committee why you did not disclose that in your
evidence today, in your evidence yesterday, anywhere in your application?
MR MPHORENG: I did not mention yesterday but I admit that I used a pliers, a
pair of pliers.
MR AMEEN: Is there anything else that you have not disclosed that you may want
to disclose?
MR MPHORENG: I do not recall anything.
MR AMEEN: That is all from me Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: No before you leave that, Mr Mphoreng I think the previous
question was why did you not disclose this yesterday and today, why? In other
words he wants an explanation, Mr Ameen wants an explanation as to why
yesterday and today you did not tell us about this, the use of a pair of pliers.
MR MPHORENG: I cannot explain well why I did not mention it yesterday but I
admit though that I used a pair of pliers.
CHAIRPERSON: Who else used that pair of pliers to torture the victims?
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MR MPHORENG: I was with comrade (?) Nani and comrade Kabelo. Now there
is a possibility that they also used a pair of pliers.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by saying there's a possibility? Are you
saying that you don't remember whether they used it?
MR MPHORENG: I'm saying I do not remember whether they used it but I did.
CHAIRPERSON: Using a pair of pliers on the private parts of a person is such an
atrocious thing that I would have thought that you would be in a position to
remember whether they did use it or not. I mean before you did that you probably
had to remove their clothes, at least their pair of trousers? It's not a casual exercise
to press somebody's private parts with a pair of pliers. It's not like touching
somebody on his forehead with your finger, you've got to remove his pair of
trousers to reach his private parts and to open up his thighs. Now you're saying you
don't remember if those things happened.
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson I admit that I used a pair of pliers. I didn't mention
yesterday and this morning, but now I
admit.
CHAIRPERSON: And the other people, you say you don't remember whether they
used it, is that what you're saying?
MR MPHORENG: That is what I'm saying.
CHAIRPERSON: Did the other applicant, Hlasa, use it to your knowledge, Mr
Hlasa?
MR MPHORENG: Hlasa was not a part of the people who interrogated.
CHAIRPERSON: Now, if I may ask you, (indistinct) and when you applied or
tortured them in that way by means of pliers to their genitals, did they not scream?
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson I do not remember well that they screamed or not.
They might have screamed because a pair of pliers would put more pain.
ADV SIGODI: When you were using this pair of pliers, did you remove their
trousers?
MR MPHORENG: I don't remember whether I applied it on top of the trousers or
whether the trousers were put down, but it was used.
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mphoreng yesterday I got the impression that you were just
in the one room all the time. Do you now also admit that you had moved between
the two rooms?
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MR MPHORENG: The explanation that I gave before the committee yesterday
was that for the better part of the interrogation I was in the other room.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.
MR MALAN: Sorry I just want to get clarity, but you also did go to the, on
occasion during the interrogation to the room where the other three boys were. Are
you admitting to the statement put to you by Mr Ameen?
MR MPHORENG: I explained that for the better part of the day I was in this room,
but there is such a possibility that I went into the other room.
MR MALAN: Can you remember that you did go into the other room or can't you
remember it at all?
MR MPHORENG: I do not remember.
MR MALAN: Why do you remember that for the better part you were in this
specific room. The other parts, where were you then if you remember that only for
the better part and not for the full duration of the interrogation, you were in the
specific one room. Where would you have been for the lesser or worse parts, in
which room?
MR MPHORENG: I remember spending enough, a lot of time in the room where I
was.
MR MALAN: Can you recall ever having left that room during the day, during the
interrogation?
MR MPHORENG: Yes, I used to go outside or to the kitchen.
MR MALAN: For what purpose?
MR MPHORENG: To stretch my legs or even drink water.
MR MALAN: Can you recall that you went out to drink water?
MR MPHORENG: I said perhaps I went out for the purpose of drinking water or
stretching my legs, I do not remember specifically whether I went out to drink
water.
MR MALAN: Mr Mphoreng I think it's time you start answering the questions, I
asked you the question whether you can remember, whether you had at any stage
during the interrogation left the room. I think you said then yes you did on
occasion leave the room, you can recall that.
MR MPHORENG: I'll put it that way Chairperson.
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MR MALAN: Yes, in other words you did leave the room, you weren't there full
time during the interrogation, in that one room for the whole of the afternoon?
MR MPHORENG: I am saying for the better part of the day I was in the
interrogation room but there were moments where I briefly went out and went back
to the room.
MR MALAN: Now those moments that you briefly went out, can you recall them?
MR MPHORENG: I do not remember sir.
MR MALAN: How do you know that you were outside, why do you say that you
were out? You say that clearly without qualification, when I ask you about them
you say you don't remember them.
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson I do not recall how many times I went out but the
important point is yes, I went out but how many times I do not remember.
MR MALAN: Can you remember any single time that you went out for any
specific purpose?
MR MPHORENG: At one stage I remember I went outside, I mean completely
outside to get fresh air and thereafter I went back, it was also for stretching my
legs.
MR MALAN: Do you remember another time, for another purpose?
MR MPHORENG: That is the reason I remember why I went outside.
MR MALAN: Yes on this one occasion, I'm asking you can you remember any
other single occasion that you left because you say you left on a number of
occasions?
MR MPHORENG: I remember that occasion Chairperson, only that occasion.
MR MALAN: You also remembered earlier that you went to the kitchen. Did you
not say that?
MR MPHORENG: Yes I said that.
MR MALAN: So now you remember two occasions, one to go outside and once to
go to the kitchen?
MR MPHORENG: The first time I went to the kitchen and as time went on I went
outside to stretch my legs.
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MR MALAN: Can you recall that you ever went into the other room where the
other people were being interrogated?
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson I do not remember well whether I got into that
room but there is such a possibility that I did go into that room.
MR MALAN: I'm not asking you about the possibilities Mr Mphoreng, I'm asking
you about your memory. If you think back can you remember, even if vaguely, that
during that afternoon that you also went into the other room, either to look into the
other room or to participate in the assaults?
MR MPHORENG: I do not remember that it happened sir.
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mphoreng on how many people did you use the pliers?
MR MPHORENG: I used it on one person.
ADV BOSMAN: And was that on Oscar?
MR MPHORENG: Yes.
ADV BOSMAN: Now can you explain how these people in the other room knew
that you'd used the pliers, because they are the ones who came up with it today.
How did they come to know about it?
MR MPHORENG: Can you repeat your question, I do not quite understand it?
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mphoreng you say you only used the pliers on Oscar in the
room where you were in and today the two survivors said that you had used the
pliers and they were in the other room. Is that correct? Do you agree?
MR MPHORENG: What I remember very well is that I was with Oscar in the
room and other SOSCO comrades. I do not recall their faces at all. According to
some of the issues that came out during the cross examination it came up that those
who were with me in the room all died, that is why I remembered that, yes I used a
pair of pliers and I used it on Oscar.
ADV BOSMAN: My question is, how did the two survivors know if you had not
been in their room with the pliers, in the other room with the pliers. How did they
know about the pliers that you had used.
MR MPHORENG: I don't know how they came to know about that.
MR MALAN: Sorry Chair, I know you'd want to go for a break. You say ...
(intervention)
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MR AMEEN: Sorry. My understanding was that - just before you proceed with
your questions - my understanding was that when I put this to him, he actually
agreed with the way I put it to him that he had been going from room to room and
that he did use it. Is that a correct understanding? I just want to clear that with the
committee.
CHAIRPERSON: Well that could have been an impression but let me tell how I
understood this. You put it to him in the plural, you put it to him that according to
your instructions you used a pair of pliers on these people. You put it in the plural
and then I interjected and tried to find out what, are you referring to him as a
particular individual and his answer was, yes. Now he agreed to doing that so in
some sense you are right in saying that an impression was created that the pliers
was applied on more than one person because you had put it in the plural and his
answer was in the affirmative and for my part that impression stands until and
unless Mr Tloubatla deals with it in one way or another.
MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, sorry ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Of course that's just my personal impression.
MR AMEEN: Thank you. Sorry Adv Bosman, Malan.
CHAIRPERSON: The only thing on which he did not commit himself and simply
said it was possible was whether the other people had also used the pliers, then he
said it was a possibility.
MR MALAN: Chair I just wanted to know from Mr Hlasa, he said that he didn't in
his evidence yesterday - sorry, Mr Mphoreng - he said that in your evidence
yesterday and this morning you did not refer to the pliers, but you admit it now.
That is what you said, is that correct?
MR MPHORENG: I admit that I used a pair of pliers.
MR MALAN: My question now is did you remember only now or did you know,
did you remember before, that you used the pliers? Could I put the question
differently. Did you hide the fact from us earlier and now admit to it or what is the
reason?
MR MPHORENG: Chairperson I was not hiding out this point. If I intended to
hide it I would never have admitted to it now.
MR MALAN: You were asked about the taking off of clothes of people, giving
them other clothes. You say it was possible but you have no recollection. I mean in
any assault, in assaulting a person, you remember hitting him with a bottle on the
head but you don't remember applying the pliers. You don't remember taking off
clothes. I guess can you comment that, how are we to understand that?
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MR MPHORENG: I did admit that I applied a pair of pliers on a person and
whether I removed his clothes or I applied it whilst his clothes were on, but I
admitted that I used a pair of pliers.
MR MALAN: I will try a last time. Is it not more serious to use a pair of pliers on a
person's private parts than hitting a person with a bottle over his head and if I were
the torturer I think I would have remembered the more serious parts of the torture
and not the less serious. What is your comment on that?
MR MPHORENG: I agree Chairperson I did not mention yesterday but I am
mentioning it now and I am not under pressure that I mentioned it, yes it is an
important point to be mentioned.
MR MALAN: Sir, with your permission a last time. Why did you not mention it
yesterday?
MR MPHORENG: I did not mention it yesterday, I believe it's one of the
important points that must be mentioned.
CHAIRPERSON: I think we should adjourn now until 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mphoreng on the question of the
pliers. Did you use it, I mean on how many of the victims did you use that pliers?
MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: (s.u.o). I used it on one victim.
MR TLOUBATLA: There was a question that how could the survivors possibly
have know that you were using the pliers if they were not in the same room with
you. Do you have an explanation?
MR MPHORENG: I don't know how they knew.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Siema and Mr (indistinct) were not arrested in this
incident. Do you have an explanation why they were not arrested?
MR MPHORENG: It's because there names did not appear with those of the people
who had been wanted.
MR TLOUBATLA: But you personally knew that they were part and parcel of ...
(inaudible - end of tape). Why did you not mention this to the police?
MR MPHORENG: As members of AZAPO we were not supposed to disclose
information.
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MR TLOUBATLA: So this was a deliberate political act to try and protect Mr
Siema and Mr (indistinct)?
MR MPHORENG: That is correct, it was a way of safeguarding the information.
MR TLOUBATLA: When you left the country who was responsible for your
leaving the country?
MR MPHORENG: There is one comrade called comrade Max he was an
AZANLA operative. He was in exile at that time but he was here with a specific
aim of taking us to join AZANLA in exile.
MR TLOUBATLA: So do I understand you correctly that after this incident the
organisation intervened and removed you to go into exile?
MR MPHORENG: We were assisted by the organisation to go into exile.
MR TLOUBATLA: Now Mr Mphoreng, looking with hindsight, do you have
anything to say to the families of your victims. Is there any message, do you have
anything to say about this incident, in particular to the families of the victims? That
is with hindsight, looking now, seeing what happened just from a moral point of
view.
MR MPHORENG: What happened in 1986 should have never happened. It was
not our style to kill other people, it was just unfortunate that their children, their
brothers were killed because of the political problems that existed between UDF
and AZAPO. It is regrettable and very unfortunate that they lost their loved ones. I
know how they feel, I've also lost people very close to me in the past, I know the
pain of losing a family member and I understand the pain they are feeling and the
way in which their children died.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman thank you, I don't have any further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TLOUBATLA
CHAIRPERSON: You are excused, you can stand down Mr Mphoreng.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlasa would you please come back.
PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: We are calling you back because you only gave your evidence
in chief and Mr Ameen on behalf of the victims has not as yet had the opportunity
to put questions to you. It is for that reason that you have been recalled to the
witness box. Mr Ameen.
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CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Hlasa
in your evidence yesterday you said that meetings were held between AZAPO and
the UDF leadership to resolve differences. Is that correct?
MR HLASA: That is correct.
MR AMEEN: And that you personally attended two such meetings, not as part of
leadership, but as an ordinary member of AZAPO?
MR HLASA: That is true.
MR AMEEN: And you understood what was being discussed at these meetings?
MR HLASA: That is correct.
MR AMEEN: You also said that these meetings were not successful because the
people at grass roots level did not understand what was being discussed up there at
leadership level?
MR HLASA: That is true.
MR AMEEN: But you were present at these meetings and you understood
perfectly what was being discussed here and what the leadership of both
organisations were trying to achieve. Is that correct?
MR HLASA: That is correct.
MR AMEEN: You understood clearly that (indistinct) and violence was wrong and
that your own leadership disapproved of it. Is that correct?
MR HLASA: That is correct.
MR AMEEN: Now in your evidence in chief yesterday you also sketched to the
committee and to us here your role in AZAPO, the fact that you were a member, an
ordinary member, the fact that you were part of the organising committee, the fact
that you followed orders. In short, that you were a disciplined member of the
organisation. Is that true?
MR HLASA: That is correct.
MR AMEEN: And you prided yourself on that, that you were a disciplined
member of AZAPO?
MR HLASA: Correct.
MR AMEEN: And as such, you understood and felt yourself to be bound by the
policies and principles of AZAPO. You respected their policies?
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MR HLASA: That is true.
MR AMEEN: And one of their policies was that of non-retaliation. Is that correct?
MR HLASA: Yes, that's correct.
MR AMEEN: Now I want to refer you to page 6 of your application.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen I'm going to interrupt you and ask you something.
Where is you jacket Mr Ameen. I'm not necessarily saying put it on but I get the
impression that you leave it somewhere, at you office and just walk into the
proceedings without a jacket. Sorry?
MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman it is here.
CHAIRPERSON: In the courtroom?
MR AMEEN: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR AMEEN: Shall I put it on?
CHAIRPERSON: No you don't have to. We will give you that concession not to
put it on if you feel to hot, we will grant you that concession. I was getting
worried, I got the impression that you left it somewhere in the car or maybe just
walked here.
MR AMEEN: It's right here, I was formally attired.
CHAIRPERSON: No you don't have to put it on, we grant you that leave not to put
it on.
MR AMEEN: I appreciate that, thank you. I refer you to page 6 of your
application, which is a continuation of paragraph 3 of the letter which you have
written to the amnesty committee. I'm not going to read it in full, but in there you
describe the murder of Mgomezulu (?) and Martin Mihau (?) and you give specific
details of how these people were murdered and in the next paragraph you say:
"From then on my attitude was clear ...", in paragraph 4, "From then on my attitude
was clear, it was retaliation orientated", but there's nothing in your application
which says that this change, this change in your personal attitude was brought
about by a change in your organisation's policy. Is there?
MR HLASA: There is no such thing in my application.
MR AMEEN: So this change in attitude was a personal decision on you part to
attack who you thought were enemies of AZAPO, to avenge attacks on AZAPO. In
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short, to take revenge. You were not acting on orders, but you were acting from
what you felt was personally right. Is that correct?
MR HLASA: That is not correct. Within a political organisation we are people, we
are in large numbers, we have different emotions but at the end of the day all of us
have to agree on certain principles. There was a principle of democratic centralism.
If I did not believe or I did not agree that a certain action should be taken, it
wouldn't matter, at the end of the day all of us would have to engage, yes the
organisation was still that way but I was a member of the organisation and I was
supposed to follow the principles of the organisation.
MR AMEEN: But the principles of that organisation was non-retaliation. An
incident happened when two members were killed, nothing came from the
organisation to say the policy has changed and you then changed your personal
attitude and you say that: "From then on my attitude was clear, it was retaliation
orientated".
MR HLASA: Let me put it this way - let me not refer to a principle because it puts
me, it gives me a problem. Let me talk of the code of conduct of the organisation.
Each member was supposed to follow this code of conduct. I have explained that in
some of the principles of the organisation there was that one referring to
democratic centralisation that even if you did not agree with what the other people
were saying, but if the majority of the people would have said something it would
have taken that line. Now the leadership itself was the majority, if the leadership
told us not to do so it means we would have follow what they said. I explained
yesterday that when time went on even the leadership, through the publicity
secretary of AZAPO, explained that the situation is different, the leadership was
not going to tell the followers what to do. They were supposed to defend
themselves in a way appropriate. I explained yesterday that even comrade Muntu,
the late comrade Muntu, did explain this.
MR AMEEN: Now just going back a bit to those meetings. When you were present
at meetings at which two organisations were trying to resolve major political
differences which had resulted in a lot of violence, yet understanding that, knowing
what the leadership was trying to achieve, you, given the first opportunity, took
part in a series of actions which resulted in a great deal of aggression and the
murder of four people and attempted murder of two others, knowing that at
leadership level people were trying to resolve differences. You were not defending,
you had six helpless youths whom you had at gunpoint. The survivors deny that
they agreed or admitted that they were members of SASCO or that they were
(indistinct) or any of the others things that they are supposed to have admitted. You
had them at your mercy ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Let's make it less complicated please. the question is, on the one
hand you say you were involved in negotiations trying to bring peace and yet you
took part in the killing of people. How do you explain that?
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MR HLASA: Let me explain. I think I gave two meetings that I recall. There had
been meetings, many. I even mentioned that even the ministers of religion on the
other side were trying to bring end to this violence. Leadership was talking but the
situation on the ground did not change. In other words things were happening here
on the ground and we would not just fold our arms and say we don't defend
ourselves. I have explained yesterday that there were many incidents which we
defended ourselves successfully. Now it was after a long time of talking,
unfortunately these ones were then captured.
MR AMEEN: When did you learn of the order to kill these youths?
MR HLASA: Whilst we were still at Orlando West.
MR AMEEN: At Jeff Lingani's house?
MR HLASA: That's correct.
MR AMEEN: And who told you about it?
MR HLASA: (indistinct) Nani told me about an order.
MR AMEEN: Right, I refer you to page 3 of your application, 11.b, where
particulars are requested of such order or approval and the date thereof and if
known, the name and address of the persons who gave such order or approval. You
talk here, your answer is: "The order was generally to defend every member of the
organisation". Your amnesty application is in particular related to these six youths,
four of whom were killed and you don't mention the order that you are told of.
Why is that omission, can you explain that omission?
MR HLASA: If you look at page 1 of this document and it's written form 1 and
there's my name, my surname, my first name and the address. This is my
handwriting, look thoroughly you'll see it's my handwriting. When you turn to the
next page which is page 2 and the last page which is the page you are referring to,
those two page are not my handwriting, but at the end on the page that you have
referred to is mine. There might have been a mistake, I did not realise it, I just
signed. To show you that there was a mistake, on point 12.c on which charges, they
have written five counts of murder, two counts of attempted murder. It explains
that I did not fill this form. On the docket it was written like this, five counts of
murder and two counts of attempted murder. These five counts of murder referred
to Mr Thandakubona and Mr Mphoreng because there were four counts of murder
and this matter only the security guard. It explains the discrepancy. This is not my
handwriting, I did not just see this.
MR AMEEN: If I can continue on this. There's a signature at the bottom of page 3,
above the word deponent. Yes this is my signature, it's mine.
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MR AMEEN: And according to the certificate after that, it says that the deponent
has acknowledged that he/she knows and understands the contents of the
declaration. This declaration was duly sworn to before me or solemnly affirmed
before me on this 10th day of May 1996 in Banks City and there's a South African
Police stamp there. You swore to this Affidavit and at the time you signed it you
signed it in front of a Commissioner of Oaths and by doing so you confirmed that
everything in that application or in this Affidavit was true and correct. You are
now telling this committee that there are mistakes in this application. You had
chance subsequently to go through this application, did you not pick it up, did you
not pick up these mistakes so that they could be rectified?
MR HLASA: It's not true that I had a chance subsequently to look at this Affidavit,
my attorney called me in after we have applied for amnesty, he told me that I had
to sign the documents. He told me that they were supposed to be stamped by the
Commissioner of Oaths. I remember I signed this document and I went to Bank
City Police Station. They just put the stamp on and they gave the documents back
to me. I do not remember whether this person who put a stamp here, read this
document to me. I think I took my lawyer into my confidence.
ADV SIGODI: When did you realise that there were mistakes in this application?
MR HLASA: Now, when it was referred to page 11 of Mr Mphoreng's application
and I realised that there were mistakes on mine as well.
ADV SIGODI: And did you bring that to your lawyer's attention?
MR HLASA: Yes, during lunchtime I told him. I told him that when Mr Mphoreng
was questioned about this five murders I realised that it also appeared on my form.
CHAIRPERSON: What are we busy with now Mr Ameen?
MR AMEEN: I beg yours?
CHAIRPERSON: What's the problem?
MR AMEEN: The problem is that the applicant has signed an Affidavit in which
he sets out his application. I referred him to paragraph 12, 11.b where he speaks of
a general order to defend members of the organisation. I asked him about specific
orders and my point was that that specific order, relating to the death or the killing
of the victims, of the four deceased and the two survivors, is not mentioned in here
and that he has not fully disclosed that and he now explains to the committee that
there's an error in this. I pointed out to him that he had sworn to this Affidavit and
all of that.
CHAIRPERSON: What transpires is that what is mentioned in 11.b is a general
order?
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MR AMEEN: That's right. What I'm saying Mr Chairman is that the question asks
for specific orders, now he's covered it with a general order and he hasn't
mentioned a specific order which he says he received, even if it was passed
through leadership, he doesn't mention it.
CHAIRPERSON: But he's mentioning it in he's evidence now. He mentioned it in
his evidence. What big problem - look at page 11 and page - what is the other page,
page what?
ADV BOSMAN: Page 7.
CHAIRPERSON: So where were you - where's that other form - someone else's
application form as well, Mr Mphoreng's application - Mr Hlasa's application,
where is it, page what? It's 3 and page 11, to me they're identical. It' not a
photocopy but word for word it's the same thing so it's quite obvious that they must
have sat with somebody who helped them complete this application forms,
probably maybe even to beat the closing date or the deadline, so really.
MR AMEEN: Alright. In your evidence yesterday you testified that you were not a
part of the group that assaulted the victims. I put it to you that survivors, my
clients, will say that you were a part of the group that accosted them near the
Presbyterian Church, that they were taken to Jeff Lingani's house in two cars, one
of which was a Chevy driven by you. What do you say to that?
MR HLASA: I would disagree with them. I remember well, on that day I was
fixing a car. When Mr Mphoreng and Mr Lingani, Mr Thandakubona arrived the
were driving a white Mazda 323 belonging to Mr Lingani. They told me they had
been at Jeff's place. I knew already that Jeff's house had been burnt and there were
comrades present. When they arrived they told me that they have arrested some
members of SOSCO, they were rounding and they captured them, they told me to
come and assist quickly. I did not hesitate ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Somewhere along the line you know, you can't just go on and on
like that. You've answered the question, they put it to you that you were there when
these people were arrested and you said no I deny that. Now you just go on and on,
you must stop somewhere Mr Hlasa you know, you must restrict yourself to
questions. Mr Ameen.
MR AMEEN: Thank you. When the victims were brought again by yourself and
your two co-applicants to Jeff Lingani's house, they were taken into the kitchen
and they were assaulted there by yourself and your co-applicants. Is that correct?
MR HLASA: That is not true.
MR AMEEN: When exactly did you get involved in the murders, at what point in
this whole incident did you get involved?
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MR HLASA: I became involved when a decision was taken as to where would
they be shot at. I remember it was myself and comrade Glen who went out to
identify a spot and we came back, we gave a report to the other comrades and it
was at comrade Glen's house.
MR AMEEN: Comrade Sam and comrade Tamee, were they at the premises or at
Jeff Lingani's house when the order was given or when you learned of the order
from (indistinct), as far as you know, were they there?
MR HLASA: They were present at Jeff's house, I only saw them late in the
afternoon at about half past five to six o'clock.
MR AMEEN: And when this order was given did you approach them or question
them about it? As to the reasonableness or otherwise of this order.
MR HLASA: I did not question the order.
MR AMEEN: Now I'm going to go back and I'm going to spend some time just
putting things to you, you have already denied that you were in the house, but just
for the record, my clients will say that you were one of the people who assaulted
them in the kitchen with a range of weapons which included guns, iron bars, and
axe and a motor car aerial, that you were one of the group that stripped them of
their clothing ... (intervention)
ADV SIGODI: Sorry Mr Ameen, do you want an answer to that, I think we must
take it step by step.
MR AMEEN: Thank you.
MR HLASA: I disputed the fact that I interrogated them. There would be no reason
to dispute that I have interrogated a person and yet concede that I killed a person. I
did not participate in the interrogation because I had my own problems fixing a car.
MR AMEEN: You particularly used iron rods on the survivors. Is that correct?
MR HLASA: That is not correct, it's a mistake in identity perhaps.
MR AMEEN: The two groups - or when these people were divided into two
groups in the houses, you were part of the group of comrades who took the two
survivors and one of the others into a bedroom and you further assaulted them
there?
MR HLASA: That is no correct.
MR AMEEN: You blindfolded at least one of them. What do you say to that?
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MR HLASA: Truly speaking I remembered the issue of blindfolding because one
fellow appeared and said his brother was blindfolded. I remember at Shawella in
the dining room one of the was blindfolded, I think comrade Vayli Indebela (?),
who has since died, was doing the final interrogation.
MR AMEEN: Now, after you received the order and the youths were now being
taken to Shawella, where were they taken to first, specifically where were they
taken to. All six of them, can you just describe that for me again?
MR HLASA: The six of them were taken to comrade Glen's house.
MR AMEEN: Can you stop at that point please and say, just explain something to
me. You heard your second co-applicant, Mr Mphoreng refer to the fact that only
three of them, that is those that were with you, were taken to comrade Glen's house
and the other three who were with him were taken directly to the spot where they
were killed in Shawella. There's a clear difference in the versions given by the two
of you. Who is telling the truth?
MR HLASA: I believe Mr Mphoreng had made a mistake, he explained that he
cannot remember things well. I was driving a car, they were in my car, my car was
driving at the front and the other car came behind and the other one was outside.
When we went to identify the spot, we used the car that was outside. We came
back and reported to the other comrades that is why even when he referred to the
spot of killing he referred to the spot I also talked about.
MR AMEEN: Now comrade Glen was not a member of AZAPO, he was a member
of a union affiliated to AZAPO. You had to senior members who had given the
order to kill with you, comrade Sam and comrade Tamee. Why would you people
take these youths to comrade Glen's house when the leadership was with you?
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman I wonder whether I can interrupt? I can't recall
clearly the evidence that Glen was not a member of AZAPO, but what I know is
that it was mentioned that he was holding a particular position in the union that is
affiliated to AZAPO but not that he is not a member of AZAPO, that I didn't hear.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm not so sure, Mr Ameen how sure are you ... (intervention)
MR AMEEN: Yes, what Mr Tloubatla is saying is correct. I think the evidence is
that he was not one of the leaders of AZAPO but that he was a senior leader of the
Black Union - some workers union which was affiliated to AZAPO. Is that
correct? Alright, to put the question to you again, you had two senior members of
AZAPO who had given you the order to kill, they were with you, why then did you
have to go to comrade Glen's house who was not a leader of AZAPO but was a
leader of a union affiliated to AZAPO. What was the purpose of that?
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MR HLASA: I do not understand why do you separate the union from AZAPO. Mr
Mphoreng mentioned today that when he referred to SOSCO he was also referring
to UDF. When you talk of Black and AZAPO you're talking of one thing.
MR AMEEN: The caucus in comrade Glen's house, who was present at that
caucus?
MR HLASA: We were about six or seven. I was present, I was in the kitchen when
the discussion was on and we were told to go and look for a spot. We were about
six or seven but the rest of the comrades were in the dining room and the others
outside.
MR AMEEN: So you then left the six youths there with some of the other of your
comrades and you and comrade Glen then went to look for the spot where these
people were going to be executed?
MR HLASA: That is correct.
MR AMEEN: And how far away is this spot from comrade Glen's house?
MR HLASA: Plus minus five kilometres.
CHAIRPERSON: I noticed that, unlike yesterday, today in the witness box you are
putting on and testifying behind very dark glasses. Is there any special reason for it
or are you afraid that if we see your eyes we may see that you are perhaps not
telling the truth or you are telling the truth?
MR HLASA: That is not so, there is no reason. I can take them off.
CHAIRPERSON: I just wanted to satisfy myself whether there is any particular
reason why you are testifying today behind such very dark glasses, because
sometimes it is useful to, in a tribunal, to be able to look a witness in his eyes as
part of general methods of trying to assess the credibility of the witness. Can I ask
you something, why did you people from me Lingani's house take these boys to Mr
Glen's house?
MR HLASA: When (indistinct) got out of the house he told me that we were
heading for Shawella, it meant that an order had been issued out already that these
people be killed. I did not ask him why because I did not take the order direct from
the people who issued it out.
CHAIRPERSON: So as far as you're concerned, you don't know why you people
had to go to Glen's house first, even though a decision has already been taken to
kill these boys, you personally don't know why you had to go to Glen's house?
MR HLASA: I personally do not know the reason why.
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CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen.
MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now when you took - right, were all six
together taken, all six of the youths who were going to be killed, four of them were
killed, two survivors, were all of them taken together to the spot or were they taken
separately?
MR HLASA: They were taken separately.
MR AMEEN: The one group of three was taken by Mr Mphoreng, comrade Sam
and comrade Tamee. Is that right?
MR HLASA: I do not recall comrade Tamee and comrade Sam taking part in the
killing, but I remember comrade Mphoreng was involved, comrade Thabo Matlala
(?) was involved.
MR AMEEN: They went first and then you took your group of three?
MR HLASA: No, our group went first.
MR AMEEN: Your group went first. Who accompanied you, which of your
friends accompanied you taking the three people to their deaths?
MR HLASA: It was myself, comrade Tamee and comrade Thabo.
MR AMEEN: And who is comrade Thabo?
MR HLASA: He is not present here and he'd never been arrested.
MR AMEEN: The third applicant, Mr Thandakubona, was he any part of these
people with you that went to the spot to kill these people, to kill the youths?
MR HLASA: No.
MR AMEEN: And he was not part of Mr Mphoreng's group?
MR HLASA: That is correct.
MR AMEEN: If I can just get some assistance from the committee. He's also
applied for amnesty for the same murders, four counts of murder and two of
attempted murder, but he has not been part, according to the evidence here, Mr
Thandakubona.
CHAIRPERSON: Well I don't know, we can't (indistinct). Where is his
application?
MR MALAN: Is that really relevant at this stage Mr Ameen?
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MR AMEEN: There's just something I want to get clear in my mind, but it's fine.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright.
MR AMEEN: Coming to the scene of the murder, and your killing of these three
people and attempted murder of the two, how did you shoot them, what did you do.
When you took them there you were in the car, they were in the car, tell me what
happened, tell the committee what happened?
MR HLASA: ... (inaudible - end of tape) ... once. I might have indicated yesterday
that I do not recall who it was and I won't know who did I really shoot and then I
pushed him towards the bottom of the hill slope.
MR AMEEN: I'm going to put it to you that the three people, two of them are
survivors here, were ordered to get out of the car and were ordered to run towards
the old Shawella beer hall, a disused beer hall. They were ordered not to look
sideways and they were ordered when they reached the wall to sit with their backs
facing the wall, that is they were facing you. Is that correct?
MR HLASA: Repeat your question sir?
MR AMEEN: At the spot where the two survivors and one of the deceased was
going to be killed, that is the three people that were in your group destined to be
killed. When you reached the spot where they were going to be killed they were
ordered out of the car, they were ordered to run towards the old Shawella beer hall,
a disused beer hall, they were ordered not to look sideways and when they reached
the wall they were ordered to sit with their backs towards the wall, facing you?
MR HLASA: I was not in that group. I was in the group that went to the hill, they
were shot and they fell to the bottom of the hill slope. I don't know (inaudible)
second shooting took place.
MR AMEEN: May I just clarify something with my clients (indistinct)? Thank you
Mr Chairman. I just clarified something with my clients, they say that there was -
one of them was shot once, he survived, the other was shot three time, he received
three bullets in his body, he survived, but he was also shot a further seven time,
seven bullets were fired at him but those bullets did not hit him and that they are
adamant that they were made to sit the way I described to you earlier, their backs
towards the wall of the Shawella beer hall, facing you?
MR HLASA: I have explained which group I was in.
MR AMEEN: Was it the first group or the second group?
MR HLASA: It was ... (inaudible)
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MR AMEEN: That is correct, they will say it was the first group.
MR HLASA: They say they were blindfolded, his hands were tied up, I would
really urge them to tell the committee how they came to know about that they were
in the first group.
MR AMEEN: At that point they were not blindfolded, their hands were not bound,
they were not blindfolded.
MR HLASA: When were their hands tied up?
MR AMEEN: Their hands were not tied and they were not blindfolded.
MR HLASA: Well I would not dispute that because it's only yesterday when I
learned about the blindfolding issue and I remember there was one in the dining
room who was blindfolded but I am saying I was in the first group.
MR AMEEN: After the shooting was completed they heard you congratulating
yourselves on having done a good job?
MR HLASA: I dispute that. I do not know whether the committee would like me to
expand on this? Yesterday I did explain that I trained in Libya for 11 months and I
went up until I was a general. I trained more than 200 people, I know a reaction of
a firearm, if I shoot you with a firearm, whether you are wearing a bullet proof or
not, you will react and if a person had been shot without a bullet proof on he would
not have heard that.
MR MALAN: Excuse me Mr Hlasa are you saying you didn't congratulate each
other?
MR HLASA: I do not see a reason why we would shoot at people and to wait, we
would be - I remember after shooting I went back to the car and my comrades shot
and they followed. To stand there and congratulate ourselves is - nothing like that
happened.
MR AMEEN: I want to take you back to yesterday's testimony. At some point in
the course of your evidence you mentioned that there was anger on your part, that
there was anger. Can you recall that?
MR HLASA: I recall that.
MR AMEEN: And that this was at the point when the youths who were killed and
the two survivors had been brought in for interrogation. You used words to the
effect that if you participated in the interrogation, something would happen. Can
you recall that?
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MR HLASA: That is correct.
MR AMEEN: Can you expand a bit on that, what did you mean when you said that
if you would participate something would happen?
MR HLASA: I explained my position as an individual. I said I could not tolerate
the killings that were happening anymore, now what held me was the court of
conduct of AZAPO. I have told you already that there was this principle of
democratic centralisation. Even though I was an individual and not agreeing with
what the majority were saying because they were outnumbering me, I would have
... (intervention)
MR AMEEN: We are at the point when the boys are being interrogated, the youths
who were killed and the two survivors are being interrogated. You are very angry
and you've told this committee that if you would have participated in this
interrogation, something bad would have happened. I want you to explain what
you meant by that something bad. Just confine yourself to that.
MR MALAN: Mr Ameen, sorry, my recollection and my notes are a little
different. His reference to his inability to tolerate was advanced as a reason for not
going in and participating in the questioning. He said there that when they arrived
he stayed outside, they arrived in the two cars, one of which was his, he stayed
outside and he cleaned the oil and he didn't want to go in because he said I knew I
would not tolerate it. I'm not sure that we have the same time, I may be mistaken.
CHAIRPERSON: Taking the lead from Adv Malan, what would you not have been
able to tolerate at the time that the youths were being interrogated. You remained
outside, you said you would not have been able to tolerate. What would you not
have been able to tolerate?
MR HLASA: It would be difficult to explain what is it that I would not tolerate.
We are not the same emotionally and I felt that I should not go in.
CHAIRPERSON: Well let me tell you how we understood you, to save time. We
understood you to convey that you didn't want to go in there because had you gone
in there you might have been very angry and perhaps harmed them or assaulted
them or done something terrible to them, that is how we understood you. Are we
right in so understanding you or are we wrong?
MR HLASA: That is correct Chairperson.
MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
MR MALAN: While we're at this point Mr Ameen. You arrived there
simultaneously with the youths, the six victims arriving there because in your
evidence yesterday you said you put them into two cars, the Mazda and your Chev.
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You say you had to clean, the car was dirty, you had to clean the oil therefore you
did not go in. Is that correct?
MR HLASA: That is the main reason that held me outside.
MR MALAN: Just a follow up question on this. And for the whole time that the
interrogation took place you remained outside, you never went into the house. Is
that correct?
MR HLASA: That is correct. If there was anything I wanted inside the house I
went in, for instance soap, even eating.
MR AMEEN: Two organisations were at war. People who had harmed your
organisation, these youths, who alleged to have harmed your organisation were
being interrogated and yet you busied yourself with cleaning oil in a car. How long
did that take you because this interrogation lasted for a good few hours?
MR HLASA: I do not recall how long it took me but it was quite a long time.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR AMEEN
CHAIRPERSON: Even after finishing with your car, after you'd finished cleaning
your car, you nonetheless did not go to go and interrogate them?
MR HLASA: I did not go inside. There were other comrades outside who were not
part of the interrogation, I was just chilling around with them.
CHAIRPERSON: You were not the only person outside?
MR HLASA: No.
ADV BOSMAN: I just want to interfere please. Did you hear any loud music being
played?
MR HLASA: There was music but only normal level.
ADV BOSMAN: Did you hear any screams?
MR HLASA: I do not recall hearing screams.
ADV BOSMAN: You heard the evidence of Mr Mphoreng, yesterday he testified
in what manner these victims were tortured. Does it surprise you then that you did
not hear screams?
MR HLASA: It does not surprise me because when these people were captured
they were six captured by one person. It would not surprise me because even when
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they were captured there were six captured by one person and it was about past two
to three in the afternoon.
ADV BOSMAN: But you heard Mr Mphoreng testifying that he used a pliers and
applied it to the private parts of the victims, would you not have expected screams?
MR HLASA: There is a possibility that when a person is being tortured with a pair
of pliers would scream, such a possibility exists that he would be ordered not to
scream.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla. ... (indistinct)
ADV BOSMAN: No questions.
MR BRINK: No questions Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla, any re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Hlasa
today with hindsight, looking and examining this particular event, what would be
your message, if any anyway,
be to the families of the victims or how do you look at the whole incident and what
can you say perhaps to the families or to the nation as a whole?
MR HLASA: I would start first by saying the conflict of the past between Black
organisations was an unfortunate incident. As members of AZAPO we did not
perceive Black people as our enemies, we knew that we were fighting White
people. The loss of life, Black man's life, is something that disturbed us a lot, that
is why we also took so long to decide upon the life of a Black person. Therefore
I'm saying please forgive me, I have come before this committee to tell the only
truth, to tell what I know. If there is anything that I did not know, it's not because
I'm hiding it.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I haven't got any further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TLOUBATLA
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if I may just ask him. Do you know where the Shawella
beer hall is?
MR HLASA: I know where it is.
CHAIRPERSON: How far is that beer hall from the spot where you say you shot
these people?
MR HLASA: It can be metres, not a kilo, but metres.
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CHAIRPERSON: About how many metres, could it be from the wall behind me up
to that wall or whatever distance you can, please indicate?
MR HLASA: It's can be 20 - 25 metres.
CHAIRPERSON: I see. Is there any fixed particular object at the spot where you
shot these people? It may be a difficult question but I'm trying to find out whether
you shot them, where you shot them was next to a toilet or next to something, a
house or an old house?
MR HLASA: There were electric pylons but I have indicated that it was a hill but
there was nothing fixed except those electric pylons.
CHAIRPERSON: Well that is why I asked you that questions because on the,
some of the facts accompanying the (indistinct) they say they were shot at a beer
hall so I just wanted to see whether perhaps that description for convenience or a
matter of preciseness. So you say it was about 25 metres from a beer hall, from the
beer hall in Shawella?
MR HLASA: That's correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising from my question regarding to the beer
hall?
MR TLOUBATLA: Nothing, no Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.
Shall we have the next witness Mr Tloubatla? You are excused Mr Hlasa, you can
stand down please.
WITNESS EXCUSED
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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
AMNESTY HEARING
DATE: 09 JUNE 1998
NAME: MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA
HELD AT: JOHANNESBURG
DAY 2
______________________________________________________ADV SIGODI:
Will you testify in English or Xhosa or Zulu?
MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: For the benefit of the interpreters, in what language are you
going to testify Mr Thandakubona?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I'm going to use (indistinct)
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I am a Xhosa who grew up around here.
CHAIRPERSON: Well I'm just asking you because I don't want later with a
situation where there is some argument as to what precisely you said, whether you
meant it or you did not mean it. We want you to use the language that you best
command and having said that we leave that to you to decide which language you
want to use, but use the language that you best command to avoid problems later
on. Very well then. Mr Tloubatla here again this applicant had made an application
in respect of the murder of a security guard and likewise we will stand down his
application in respect of that particular incident, we will stand it down indefinitely
for the same reasons as we've already mentioned and bearing in mind again the fact
that a differently constituted committee may hear his application in respect of that
particular incident so we want to leave it neatly out of the present proceedings.
What are your full names?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I am Mxolisi Ernest Thandakubona.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla.
EXAMINATION BY MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr
Thandakubona is it true that you have applied for amnesty for the killing of some
four boys on the 1st of August 1986 and the attempted killing of another two?
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MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes I was present.
MR TLOUBATLA: I am going to concentrate on the events of the day, on that
particular day. It is common cause that you had a comrade by the name of
Jefferson Lingani. Is that so?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.
MR TLOUBATLA: And that his house was either damaged or burnt, whatever but
that is also common cause that something had happened to his house. Is that so?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.
MR TLOUBATLA: At what time did you know that Mr Lingani's house had been
damaged?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I was sleeping with comrade Ghani (?) that day at one
of the houses that used to be our hideout but the comrades knew what places were
used as hideouts. Jeff came to us, woke us up at dawn, around 3 or 4 in the
morning. He knocked at the door and we refused to wake up, we hid ourselves
because we were tired and we did not want to leave at the time. Jeff then left. He
went to other places to ask for other people.
MR TLOUBATLA: There is something that is not amusing, but sort of you know,
it's attracting my attention, you keep on taking off your hat. Did you have to leave
by hiding yourselves all the time, you're talking of a hideout?
MR THANDAKUBONA: We were leading a kind of life of hiding out because we
were fleeing from the police and the UDF members. The UDF was of course the
opposite camp that was fighting us.
MR TLOUBATLA: So did your comrade Jefferson come back later and what time
was that when he came back?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes Jeff did come back. It was round about half past
eight, nine o'clock. We had just come back from buying breakfast at the shop and
when we entered the gate he was just arriving himself as well. We did not cook the
breakfast, we got into the car and we went to his place to assess the damage.
MR TLOUBATLA: How many of you left that hideout of yours to go to
Jefferson's place?
MR THANDAKUBONA: It was myself, Ghani and Jeff, that was when we were
going to his place.
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MR TLOUBATLA: And then on your arrival at Jeff's place, who did you find
there?
MR THANDAKUBONA: When we arrived I saw people like Kabelo, Dick, Vayli
was also present, Mklana as well. Those are the people we found when we arrived.
I may have forgotten other but I am sure about these ones. These are the ones that
we found when we arrived.
MR TLOUBATLA: So it was quite a number of your comrades at Jeff's place, it
was quite a sizeable number?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes there were several comrades that I found there, they
were trying to help by cleaning and establish how much damage has been caused
and we were guarding because we feared that the people might come back during
the day.
MR TLOUBATLA: I see also, that is in page 21 that is page 1 of your application,
you say on the second paragraph, the second sentence you say: "It started when
comrade Jefferson Lingani's house, who was a member of AZAPO, was petrol
bombed for the second time". In fact I think it's for the first time that we hear that
the same house was petrol bombed for the second time?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Would you please refer me to the paragraph, what page
is it on? I'm referring to the paragraph that you've just read.
MR TLOUBATLA: In the bundle it's page 21 but otherwise it's page 1 of your
application, the second paragraph, the second sentence.
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct. I concur with what I have written
here because you know Jeff was a prominent member of AZAPO, prominent
leader, he was well known he could not hide himself, he was within the Soweto
Eleven that was arrested during the 1976 riots and he resided in the UDF area. The
area in which he resided was predominantly UDF and that was not for the first time
that he was attacked, he was attacked for the first time but nothing happened. He
reported the matter and this was for the second time that he was attacked and his
house was burnt, that's when he called for help from his comrades.
MR TLOUBATLA: Before this particular incident, was Jeff's house petrol
bombed, how long before this particular incident?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I would not know exactly the month but it was not
something that had happened a long time ago, it was around within three months I
think. Three months had not lapsed when this second attack was launched.
MR TLOUBATLA: Right, you arrived there and then with the other comrades,
what did you keep yourselves busy doing there after arriving at Jeff's place?
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MR THANDAKUBONA: We were cleaning the house, cleaning up the broken
glasses and making sure that the place was clean, that is what we did at the time
and guard the place so that in the event of these people coming back we would be
there.
MR TLOUBATLA: Is there anything that happened during the course of the day
whilst you were there that you can perhaps tell us?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes something did happen. As we were busy cleaning
and moving around people were walking past and singing and their songs were not
the kind of happy songs, they were actually communicating to us at the time. The
kind of songs sung and the T-shirts worn were the kind of songs and T-shirts that
would identify one's political stance and therefore one would identify them as
SOSCO or UDF.
MR TLOUBATLA: You heard the other co-applicants when they were testifying.
Are you saying that they just passed there, they walked past the house and then
was it the end?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes they walked past singing and they came back again.
It was an up and down movement that happened several times whilst we were still
there. We ignored them.
MR TLOUBATLA: Then, except that particular incident of these people singing
up and down, then what happened thereafter?
MR THANDAKUBONA: After that I would say during the day around past two to
three, I indicated to Ghani that I wanted to go and take a bath. We requested Jeff
and he said no let's wait and take guard and we requested him that he release us
and he then offered to take us home so that we could take and bath and he would
wait for us. When we left Orlando West we took the direction towards the Orlando
stadium, driving under the bridge. We took a right towards the police station and
we would take our left at the library and on turning at the turnoff Jeff indicated that
he had forgotten a paper and he made a U-turn back towards the police station to
buy a newspaper and before he parked his car and he said: "Here are the boys." and
on looking I could identify some of these boys. We bought the newspaper, we saw
these boys walking up towards the station and we followed them. They took a
passage, they were talking and pointing and when they approached nine and
eleven, that is nine hundreds and eleven hundreds numbers in Orlando, we stopped
them ... (intervention)
MR BRINK: Chairman I'm sorry to interrupt. I wonder if my learned friend can
just get his witness to get to the point. I don't think it really matters which nine
hundred or eleven hundred rows and buying newspapers and things, quite
irrelevant with respect, can we get to the point?
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CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear that Mr Thandakubona we are here especially to
hear about the manner in killing of the certain six people, we're not so much here
about the newspapers and the buying of newspapers, we're here about the killing
and assault of six people. Let's talk about that, that which we are here for. You
understand the point? Thank you.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Thandakubona then at what
stage did you intercept this youths?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Around three in the afternoon.
MR TLOUBATLA: The place, where was it?
MR THANDAKUBONA: It was at the passage.
MR TLOUBATLA: And after you intercepted them?
MR THANDAKUBONA: After stopping them Ghani remained behind with a gun,
guarding them, Jeff and myself went to pick up comrade Pitso (?) and on arrival
we indicated to comrade Pitso that we had now apprehended the boys. We started
his vehicle and we went to eleven and we brought them into the two vehicles and
we drove them to Jeff's house in Orlando West.
MR TLOUBATLA: What time was it when you arrived now back at Jeff's place?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I didn't have a watch but I think it was around the same
time, three or past three but I cannot commit myself to the exactness of the time.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then after arriving there can you tell us what did you do
on arriving there? You in particular and then you can tell us about the others, but
basically we want you activities after this boys were brought into that house.
MR THANDAKUBONA: When we arrived we got out of the vehicle and went
into the house and the damage was indicated to them and the interrogation started.
We wanted to know ... (intervention)
MR TLOUBATLA: Where did the interrogation start, where did you do it. You
heard questions from Mr Ameen, the victim's lawyer saying that people ...
(intervention)
MR THANDAKUBONA: The interrogation started in the kitchen.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then you also heard that they was made to undress and
then left naked and then assaulted at the - would you confirm that, is that what
happened, where they undressed, all of them?
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MR THANDAKUBONA: I do not remember anybody naked but yes they were
beaten up. I do not remember anybody being undressed.
MR TLOUBATLA: Ja, just tell us then you started assaulting them in the kitchen
and then where did you go to - as it is said that you went into the bedrooms, is that
what happened?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I was not stuck to one room in which the interrogation
was taking place. There was one person whom I was beating in the kitchen. I went
to another bedroom and I was moving between the bedrooms beating them up,
assaulting them, that's how I can put it.
MR TLOUBATLA: Can you recall any specific weapons that you used when you
were assaulting this boys. Any specific weapons that you specifically used when
you were assaulting the boys?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I used my bear hands mostly, fists and (indistinct),
kicking them.
MR TLOUBATLA: Just out of interest, before I forgot this point, how old were
you then at that time?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I was 20 years old.
MR TLOUBATLA: Okay. So you never used any specific weapon, the pliers, a
hammer, an axe, the part of a gun or anything, you just used your hands?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes if my memory still serves me well, I used my bear
hands. I did not have a gun on that particular day.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then, until what time did you assault this boys and torture
them?
MR THANDAKUBONA: They were assaulted for quite a long time. They were
assaulted until dusk.
MR TLOUBATLA: Were they crying, asking for help and when you were
assaulting them what specifically did you require them to do or to say?
CHAIRPERSON: You are asking a very compound question, were they crying, did
they ask for help. What are you looking for? I think take it in instalments. Did they
scream for help?
MR THANDAKUBONA: People in pain react, they cry. As their cries could not
be heard by the immediate next door neighbours, the person next door did not
know what was happening.
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MR TLOUBATLA: And then as you were assualting them, what is it that you
wanted them to do, what is it that you were asking them to do? In other words the
reason for the assault.
MR THANDAKUBONA: First of all we assaulted them because we wanted to
know who their leaders were. Immediately when we found a T-shirt associated
with the UDF we confirmed that these are the people - we wanted to know who
gave them instructions, that is why we assaulted them.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Mphoreng you mean that at that time you didn't know who
were the leaders of the UDF, at that time. You say you asked them who were their
leaders, didn't you know the leaders of the UDF at that time?
MR THANDAKUBONA: We knew prominent UDF leaders but we basically
wanted to know who organised them in Orlando West and we also wanted to know
where their camps were.
CHAIRPERSON: In other words you wanted to know who their leaders were, if
any, who had ordered them to do this thing. Is that what you're saying?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then ultimately just tell us what happened after you now,
let's say now late just before you had to leave that house, what happened?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I will refer to myself. On that day I'd say during the
weekend Kabelo's car broke down or - and in the evening we had to go and pick
the car up. He had to use it. Kabelo and myself took Jeff's car, drove to town to
pick up this other vehicle. We came back with the vehicle. Kabelo drove his
Renault, went straight to Orlando West. I went to Orlando and I followed him to
Orlando West and when I arrived the Chev had already gone, that is the first group.
I came across comrade Sam at the door and I asked him what was happening now
... (intervention)
ADV SIGODI: Please Mr Tloubatla try to control you witness then we can take
notes and follow.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you, thank you Madam. Right you apparently went out
with, with whom did you go out?
MR THANDAKUBONA: With Kabelo.
MR TLOUBATLA: And you later came back. You say that the Chevrolet had
already left. Did I understand correctly?
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MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct, that is when we came back from
town, the Chevrolet has left already.
MR TLOUBATLA: Right and did you also, did you follow the Chevrolet and
which car were you using and with whom were you when you followed the
Chevrolet?
MR THANDAKUBONA: We were not following the Chevrolet. When we arrived
it had already left. When I arrived there was this Renault Nine, the one that we had
picked up from town and I was using Jeff's white vehicle.
MR TLOUBATLA: Okay. Right, let me rather put it this way. We have been told
by you co-applicants that they went to Glen's place. What I want to know is did
you ultimately get to Glen's place in Shawella?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes I did go to Glen's place in Shawella.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla just a little bit to be fair to the witness because
later on it may be put to him that he didn't say certain things. Let him complete the
picture he's trying to give us. He arrives from town - you arrived from town and I
suppose you mean arriving, when you say you arrived in Orlando I assume you
mean arriving at Jeff's house?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I can say I made a mistake, when I referred to Orlando I
meant that I just made a turn at Orlando and proceeded to Jeff's place.
CHAIRPERSON: Arrived at Jeff's place?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: In the Renault?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I was driving Jeff's Mazda at the time.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright. How many cars were there at Jeff's house?
MR THANDAKUBONA: There was this one Renault, the one that we had just
picked up from the garage in town.
CHAIRPERSON: The Chevrolet had already left at the time with three others who
were in the boot?
MR THANDAKUBONA: The last thing, what about the boot?
CHAIRPERSON: The Chevrolet had already left with three boys who were in the
boot?
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MR THANDAKUBONA: When we arrived we were told that the Chevrolet had
already gone to Shawella and we too should follow.
CHAIRPERSON: Follow in which car?
MR THANDAKUBONA: They were loaded into Renault Nine, accompanied by
comrade Sam, I don't know who else was present. I remained behind and followed
in Jeff's Mazda and in the company of Jeff himself and this Mazda did not have
any one of these victims.
CHAIRPERSON: You Mr Thandakubona?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes myself and Jeff left his house for Shawella in his
Mazda.
CHAIRPERSON: The Mazda then followed the Chev or at least drove to
Shawella?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And the other three boys, you say they were in the boot of the
Renault.
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes if I still remember very well, they were loaded into
the boot of the Renault. I was there at the time, I did see them being loaded into the
boot of the Renault.
CHAIRPERSON: Then you drove to Shawella and you arrived at Shawella I
believe?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes we did arrive at Shawella.
CHAIRPERSON: Take it further from there, what happened there.
MR THANDAKUBONA: We found the Chevrolet parked outside and the Renault
had also arrived. We were expected to get into the house and establish what was
happening. Indeed we went into the house.
CHAIRPERSON: Just take it slow just to allow us to make notes and so on but
give us the details, they're quite all right but just take it a bit slower.
MR THANDAKUBONA: Okay.
MR MALAN: Sorry, was this now Jeff's house at Shawella?
MR THANDAKUBONA: No.
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MR MALAN: Which house, you went into what house?
MR THANDAKUBONA: That is Glen's house.
MR TLOUBATLA: Alright you arrived there and then ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry I'm going to interrupt you, I'm sorry about that. I don't
understand how can three people have been in the boot of a Renault Nine?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I don't know Chairperson. They fitted well in the boot,
there was nothing they could do.
CHAIRPERSON: If my knowledge of vehicles doesn't let me down, it's a very
small car surely?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes, the boot of the Renault Nine is spacious, a little
spacious because it proceeds inwards. There was nothing the boys could have
done, they had to fit into the boot.
CHAIRPERSON: You then went to Glen's house?
MR THANDAKUBONA: That's correct.
MR TLOUBATLA: Right, when you arrived at Glen's house in Shawella, do you
recall who you followed there?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I still remember very well. People that I saw there on
arrival were Glen, the owner of the house, his friend, Madrix, that's his name and
he was with his girlfriend, comrade Pitso was also present, comrade Ghani as well.
The whole group from Orlando West was now at Glen's house now everything was
being conducted at Glen's house.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then what is it - anything specific that you discussed, that
is let's say with the group or something that was said to you?
MR THANDAKUBONA: When we left Orlando West I had knowledge already
because comrade Sam had already told me that these boys were going to be killed.
When we arrived at Shawella I already had that knowledge except to say I didn't
know what spot they were going to be killed at. When it was being discussed as to
the killing spot, Jeff requested me to accompany him to Dlamini where guns had to
be fetched from other comrades so that we should be in the position to defend
ourselves, after the killing, in the event of these people coming back to attack us.
We indeed went for these other guns, we could not find them, the people that we
wanted were not there and then we went back into the house and on arrival, I
wanted to know what the next step would be and it was indicated that everything
was finalised. I then understood that that meant that the boys had now been killed.
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ADV BOSMAN: Where were the boys were at this stage, when all this was taking
place, the victims.
MR THANDAKUBONA: What are you referring to?
ADV BOSMAN: When you came back where were the boys, did you see them, the
victims?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Are you referring - are you asking in which room of
Glen's house these boys were, in the boot of the car or where. Would you please
explain?
ADV BOSMAN: ... (inaudible) clear to me, according to your evidence, whether
they got out of the cars, whether they were taken out of the boot?
MR THANDAKUBONA: They were taken out of the boot into the house.
ADV BOSMAN: ... (inaudible)
MR THANDAKUBONA: I think I remember, that is if I am correct, I think we
had already blindfolded them from Jeff's house into the boot at Jeff's house, the
reason being that we did not want them to know where they were or where they
were being taken to.
CHAIRPERSON: So when you left with Jeff to go to Dlamini, they were still
blindfolded?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I can testify that I did see one of them lying down being
asked the final questions, his eyes still blindfolded.
CHAIRPERSON: And then you say when you came back from Dlamini with Jeff,
after you failed to find the guns, when you came back you were told that
everything had been done and finished with and to you and then you understood
that to mean that the boys had already been killed?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Was everybody still there at Glen's
house? I mean when you were told that now the mission has been accomplished,
the boys had been killed.
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes they were still present. We arrived at the time when
everything had been done. When we arrived I thought that we were still going to
kill the boys but I learned that everything had been done, the boys had now been
killed.
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MR TLOUBATLA: And then from there, what happened, where did you go?
MR THANDAKUBONA: We then dispersed. It was indicated that now that we
had accomplished our mission we dispersed to our respective places. We left the
Chevrolet behind because it could not move anymore. We tool the Renault and the
Mazda, we went to Kabelo's place to establish or check out as to whether his home
has been attacked or not and later on we were dropped off at Orlando and that was
now at night.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman I think, okay just one last thing. Did you also go
into exile after this incident.
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes I went to exile with my very same co-applicants,
my comrades.
MR TLOUBATLA: Any specific thing that you were doing, were you part of the
organisation and what were you doing and when did you come back?
MR THANDAKUBONA: When we left the country we were actually were
collected by a comrade at Tamee (indistinct) in Dlamini, we went to Botswana and
we went to a refugee camp and that is where found other comrades at the camp. I
was trained on certain military activities and I ended up being commander of that
very same camp. At that very same time I had been shot in another place, isolated
from this incident, and I then went to Zimbabwe where medical treatment could be
given to me properly, right up to the time when Samora Michelle died.
CHAIRPERSON: We are not interested (indistinct), we are not getting there. Did
you then come back into the country at some point?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I came back in 1994 in August.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman I think that will be all from me. I don't have any
further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TLOUBATLA
CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until tomorrow, half past nine.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION ON 10 JUNE 1998 - DAY 3
MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: (s.u.o.)
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CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen.
MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Thandakubona you testified yesterday
that you were not part of the group of people who had accosted the six youths. Is
that so?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.
MR AMEEN: When was the first time that you saw these six youths on that day?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I saw them for the first time when they were walking up
and down singing.
MR AMEEN: And how did you identify them?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I was able to identify them because of the clothes they
were wearing. I will try to remember. I recognised people who were wearing grey
flannel school uniform and there was one who was wearing something like a brand
(indistinct) trousers, white shirts, that's how I can remember that these were the
people that we saw at Orlando West earlier on.
MR AMEEN: So, there has been testimony earlier by your co-applicants that some
of these youths were wearing T-shirts. Do you remember that?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes I do remember that.
MR AMEEN: Then why didn't you mention it just now when I asked you what
they were wearing?
MR THANDAKUBONA: You will remember that they had worn the T-shirts
underneath and a shirt on top, not that they were just wearing the T-shirts.
MR AMEEN: So if they were wearing these T-shirts under their shirts, you could
not have seen them as they were walking up and down, you could not have seen
the T-shirts that they were wearing because they would have been covered with
their shirts and their blazers probably?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.
MR AMEEN: So the evidence given earlier by your two co-applicants that they
recognised these youths by the T-shirts they were wearing is incorrect?
MR THANDAKUBONA: It is true, you see the T-shirt story comes when we were
in the house.
MR AMEEN: But the point - when these youths were allegedly marching up and
down in front of Jeff Lingani's house?
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CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether anybody said that, that they identified
them by their T-shirts which they had been seen wearing during the time when
they were going up and down the street?
MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman that is my impression.
CHAIRPERSON: I do recall that they said that amongst the people who were
singing and going up and down the street, some of them had some T-shirts but I do
not recall of a piece of evidence which says precisely these six people were also
identified because at the time when they were going up and down the street they
themselves, the six, to also were having T-shirts. It isn't that - there is no such
evidence. Evidence that we have linking them with the T-shirts - what the evidence
which says they had T-shirts on was the evidence which said they had T-shirts on,
they discovered they had some T-shirts on while they were in the house, the T-
shirts were worn inside the shirts.
MR AMEEN: Alright thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm trying to say to you there is evidence that among the people
who were going up and down the street, there were people who had T-shirts on, but
the evidence did not go so far as to say precisely the six were also seen having T-
shirts while they were going up and down the street.
MR AMEEN: Okay. Now ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: ... (inaudible). Yes Mr Ameen.
MR AMEEN: Thank you. Now going back to the point where these youths were
accosted. You testified that you were not present. The two survivors that are here
today who will give evidence later on will say that you were among the three
people who accosted them and took them to two cars parked two streets away. That
they were put into those cars under gunpoint and that they were taken to Jeff
Lingani's house or to a house which turned out to be Jeff Lingani's house. I'm just
putting that to you.
MR THANDAKUBONA: It is true that I was present at the time when they were
apprehended for the first time and taken into these two vehicles. We took them to
Jeff's house. I concur with that, we also had a gun.
MR AMEEN: And they were taken under gunpoint?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes they had already seen that we had a gun so they
would not try to flee.
MR AMEEN: Now, you testified that you took part in the assaults on these six
youths at Jeff Lingani's house and that you only used your palms, your fists and
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your feet, that you did not use any of the weapons which were at the house in the
assault. I want to put it to you that the two survivors will say that you did assault
them but not in the way that you described, that you did use those weapons that
were there, the guns, the iron rod with which to assault them.
MR THANDAKUBONA: If you still remember very well I did indicate yesterday
that as far as I remember, I was in the kitchen and the someone that I really did
assault in the kitchen I went into another room, beat another one up and assaulted
another one in another room, but most of the time I was using my bear hands and
feet. I did not have a gun that day. It may have happened that I borrowed it from
someone and used it to assault them.
MR AMEEN: So you are prepared to concede that you did use those weapons, if
not all the time, at least some of the time.
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes I would agree with that.
MR AMEEN: There was also evidence yesterday, not by you but by one of the co-
applicants when it was put to him that a pliers was used on the private parts of
these youths. You recall that evidence?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes I do recall that evidence.
MR AMEEN: Can you tell this committee whether you were one of the people
who used the pliers on the private parts of these youths?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I did not use a pair of pliers but I know that one of us
did use a pliers.
MR AMEEN: Did you see the pliers being used?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes I did see him use it.
MR AMEEN: Can you describe to the court how it was done? Sorry, to the
committee.
MR THANDAKUBONA: He was actually doing something like if he was piercing
him with the pliers. The victim has his clothes on, he had his pair of trousers on at
the time.
ADV SIGODI: Sorry. Who did you see using the pliers?
MR THANDAKUBONA: It was comrade Motlana.
MR AMEEN: That is a reference to Mr Mphoreng?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that's correct.
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MR AMEEN: Right.
ADV SIGODI: Was he the only one who was using the pliers?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that's the only person that I saw using the pliers at
the time. As I have indicated before I was not stuck to one room, I was moving
between the rooms assaulting people.
ADV SIGODI: How many pliers were there, was there only one pair of pliers?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I only saw one pliers.
MR AMEEN: I'm going to give you a description which my clients have given me
of how the pliers were used and that description will include that you were one of
the people that used the pliers. Now what they will say is that when they were
given the old clothes they were given, with the old clothes, flexible curtain wiring
with which to keep their trousers tied to their waists. Do you agree with that?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I have a problem with that because I did indicate
yesterday that I do not remember seeing a naked person in the house. What clothes
were taken off were only the shirts so we were able to see the T-shirts that they had
worn beneath.
MR AMEEN: They will also say that once their trousers fell to the ground, after
they were ordered to untie this wire, this curtain wire, they were restrained and
pliers were applied to their private parts and as they screamed one or other of you
would take over from the person applying the pressure and say: "This is not how it
should be done", or words to that effect and then that person would take over
applying pressure. Can you recall that?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I did not see that.
MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman if I can just note for the record that according to my
clients they are not certain whether the third applicant was part of the group that
actually fired shots at the spot where the four were killed and on that basis I'm
going to stop my cross examination, I'm not going to put any further questions to
him. There would be no further point in that. If I can just continue on the aspect of
the motor cars that were involved in transporting them. You say that a Renault was
used to transport three of the youths to comrade Glen's house?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.
MR AMEEN: And you said that three of them were put into the boot of the
Renault?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that's what I said.
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MR AMEEN: Now, what kind of Renault was this, was it a four door car or was it
a five door hatchback?
MR THANDAKUBONA: It was a Renault 9 TSE, a sedan.
MR AMEEN: Alright. My clients will say that there was no Renault there, that
they were taken to comrade Glen's house in a Chev and in a Mazda 323?
MR THANDAKUBONA: They are making a mistake because at the time on
leaving the house to the boot, people were blindfolded and they could not therefore
testify here that the car was not a Renault. I was able to see because I was not
blindfolded. They did not see the Renault when we brought them in. We fetched
the Renault from town during which time they were in the house and they could
not have seen it when we arrived. They are making a mistake here.
MR AMEEN: And in what car were they taken from comrade Glen's house to the
scene of the killing?
MR THANDAKUBONA: The one car I know to have been used, if I still
remember very well was the very same Renault.
MR AMEEN: Okay.
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Ameen can I just come in here? Why were the victims
blindfolded?
MR THANDAKUBONA: We did not want them to see where they were going.
ADV BOSMAN: But you had them in your power now Mr Thandakubona, you
had guns, they were badly injured, on the evidence that was given here and you
had them fully in your power. Could they have escaped?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I would say that under such circumstances this is what
usually happens. One can do anything to a person to humiliate him because he is
now subdued.
ADV BOSMAN: Am I understanding you correctly then that the blindfolding was
part of humiliating them and not so much as to prevent them from seeing where
you were going. Is that what you are saying?
MR THANDAKUBONA: No, both of these acts were actually such that they
should not see where we were going and the second question is such that such
things happen when people are under such circumstances.
ADV BOSMAN: My difficulty is Mr Thandakubona that my impression was that
some of your co-applicants indicated that not all of them were blindfolded and you
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say they were all blindfolded and I don't understand the reason why because you
had them in your power. It was not necessary to blindfold them. If you could just
try and clarify?
MR THANDAKUBONA: In so far as the first question is concerned, as to the
argument that my co-applicants are saying they were not blindfolded, I did indicate
yesterday that when I arrived at the place the Chevrolet had already left with the
first group. I am talking here about the group that left during my presence. The
people who had remained behind were actually waiting for us to bring this other
car from town.
CHAIRPERSON: How do you know the Renault was used to take them to the
scene where they were shot because you were not there, you had gone to Dlamini
to go and look for guns?
MR THANDAKUBONA: The Mazda was not there and the Chevrolet was not
used because it had a pressure plate problem and therefore it was not used to take
them to the spot and the only car that was available was the Renault.
CHAIRPERSON: So actually, because the Renault was the only car left there
which would have been mobile, for that reason you - it's your conclusion that they
must have used the Renault?
MR THANDAKUBONA: No that's what the comrades told me when I came back,
they indicated to me that the Renault was used to take them to the scene where
they were shot.
CHAIRPERSON: I see, thank you.
MR AMEEN: While you were at comrade Glen's house can you recall one of the
survivors sitting behind me, or escorting one of them to the toilet in comrade
Glen's house?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Which one are you referring to?
MR AMEEN: I'm referring to Mr Kgase.
MR THANDAKUBONA: I think I still remember him from when we were still
growing up, at the time I think we were still young. I saw him for the first time in
Jeff's bedroom, he was in the main bedroom at Jeff's house ... (intervention)
MR AMEEN: Can I interrupt you please? I'm asking you whether in comrade
Glen's house you escorted him to the toilet or not, yes or no?
MR THANDAKUBONA: No, I don't remember that.
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MR AMEEN: Because that is what he will say, that you were the one who escorted
him to the toilet, that he was not blindfolded at comrade Glen's house and that the
two cars used to transport them to the scene of the killing were the Chev and the
Mazda.
MR THANDAKUBONA: I might be making some mistakes somewhere, this
happened a while ago, it's been long now since it happened. I can therefore
undoubtedly testify that it is otherwise, but as far as I remember Jeff and myself
had left to look for a gun in Dlamini and when we came back everything had been
done, that is how I remember it.
CHAIRPERSON: May I interrupt you? You said something in your evidence
something which, if I understood you correctly, you conveyed that you grew up
with Mr Kgase or known him while you were still young or something to that
effect. Did I misunderstand you?
MR THANDAKUBONA: No we did not grow up together, I was seeing him
actually for the first time that day. I was explaining that I remember him, I saw him
that day, I was seeing him for the first time in Jeff's bedroom, I was just explaining
how I met him for the first time now that I'm seeing him again today. We did not
grow up together.
CHAIRPERSON: I need to understand that what you're actually conveying was
that at that time the two of you were still young
and still growing up, not necessarily that you said that you grew up with him and I
think it didn't come quite clearly to me, but anyway I understand you now.
MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman no further questions, that is it.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR AMEEN
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink.
MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman. The note I have on your evidence in chief
was that when you arrived at Glen's house, you became aware that these people
were to be killed. Do I make a correct note or not?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I said when I heard for the first time that these people
were going to be killed, I discovered this when I arrived at Jeff's place meeting him
at the door. When we went to Glen's place I had this knowledge already.
MR BRINK: Do you know who gave the order that these people should be killed?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Comrade Sam told me when I arrived at Jeff's place.
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MR BRINK: But you didn't take part in the planning of these murders?
MR THANDAKUBONA: No I did not take part in the planning.
MR BRINK: And apart from the torture of these men you were merely a passive
participant, so to speak, in the further conduct of the operation?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I would not say I did not assault them as much because
they were really injured that day, we assaulted them badly, I too was present. In
some instances however I would not be there during the assault. This does not
mean that I would not do it if I were present.
MR BRINK: Now I understand you're being frank enough to say you took part in
the assaults, but you had absolutely nothing to do with the planning or the
execution of the murders?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.
MR BRINK: Thank you.
ADV BOSMAN: Do you know how it came about that police arrested you, who
gave your name to the police?
MR THANDAKUBONA: It was Jeff, he brought police where I was sleeping.
ADV BOSMAN: Were you then accused of having taken part in the murder?
MR THANDAKUBONA: We were charged, all of us equally.
ADV BOSMAN: With murder?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.
ADV BOSMAN: Were you not surprised because you hadn't participated in the
murder?
MR THANDAKUBONA: When we made our statements I indicated to the police
but he indicated to me that I was telling a lie, I was going to testify in court and he
then wrote down what charges he wrote.
ADV BOSMAN: Do you know why Sam and Tamee's names were not mentioned
to the police? Let me just put it differently. Do you know whether to whom you
referred as comrade Sam and comrade Tamee, do you know whether their names
were mentioned to the police?
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MR THANDAKUBONA: We refused to give their names to the police, it was not
easy to divulge such names to the police. These were prominent names in the
organisation.
ADV BOSMAN: But all the other members who were not leaders, their names
were mentioned. Is that right or can't you say?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Jeff was the first person to be arrested and then he gave
these names to the police and we too were arrested and that was the end of it, we
did not give the police any other name.
CHAIRPERSON: Who was, was there somebody in the name of Sam amongst
you, other than Sam Siema. Was there another Sam?
MR THANDAKUBONA: No.
MR MALAN: Why was Sam and Tamee's name not given to the police but Glen's
name indeed was given? Sorry I understand you
as saying that Sam and Tamee's name weren't given to the police because it wasn't
easy to divulge the prominent members in the organisation. Is that what you said?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I am saying that we did not identify their hideout to the
police.
MR MALAN: But you did identify Glen's place to the police?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Glen's name came up because the survivors had already
indicated to the police that they were taken from Orlando West to Shawella where
they were finally shot. The police wanted to know the one house to which we went
to Shawella.
MR MALAN: But weren't they blindfolded according to your testimony?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I have indicated earlier on that the first car left with the
first group and I do not know whether the first group was blindfolded or not but
during my presence I still remember one person blindfolded from the house right
into the boot of the car.
MR MALAN: But you were very adamant that Mr Kgase was blindfolded there
that he couldn't have seen when he was taken to the house of Glen. Is that correct?
MR THANDAKUBONA: No not that he was blindfolded, I'm saying I did see
someone blindfolded, that is if you still remember very well. I said I saw him for
the first time in the bedroom during the day.
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MR MALAN: Mr Ameen put it to you that he will give evidence that he was taken
from Glen's house to the scene of the execution in the Renault, not in the Renault
but in the Chev and the Mazda, they were taken in those two cars and you
responded that he could not have seen because he was blindfolded. Isn't that
correct?
MR THANDAKUBONA: No.
MR MALAN: Then let me just taken two other matters. The issue of the use of the
Renault to take them to the scene where they were killed. Wasn't the Chev used to
take them from Jeff's house to Glen's house?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes the Chevrolet was used from Jeff's place to Glen's
place.
MR MALAN: And you gave evidence that it wasn't used from Glen's place to the
scene of the killing because it had a problem with the pressure plate. Is that
correct?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes I did say that, that they did not use the Chevrolet
from Glen's place to the scene of murder.
MR MALAN: And then just one other question. On the evidence it's seems as if
these youths were apprehended somewhere between two and three o'clock in the
afternoon and that they were being kept and assaulted and tortured to somewhere
between seven and eight, in evidence before us. That's on average about five hours,
could be less but on all evidence it seems not be less than about three to four hours.
All the time of which they were assaulted according to the evidence. Now why did
this continue for so long?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I don't know. I think because there is an exaggeration of
time here because I remember they arrived at Jeff's place at round about three in
the afternoon and they then left for Shawella, not around seven, it was dusking, it
was shortly after dusk. It was August at the time and the sun would set sooner than
in summer. Yes they were assaulted for a long time, that's correct, we wanted
information from them.
MR MALAN: And the information that you did get from them, when did you get it
from them, early in the assault, late in the assault, in the middle of the assault.
After you had the information did you keep on assaulting them?
MR THANDAKUBONA: If I still remember very well, before Kabelo and myself
went to fetch the car in town the interrogation had already been completed and that
was round about five in the afternoon. We had to rush to town because the closing
time at the place where we were supposed to pick up the car was half past five.
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MR MALAN: So are you saying that at five o'clock there was no further assault,
since five o'clock till they were taken to comrade Glen's house?
MR THANDAKUBONA: When I left I think there was no assault going on but I
would not testify as to what happened during my absence.
MR MALAN: Can you just briefly summarise for us. What information did you
get form these youths and in what stage during the assault. What did you discover
first, how soon, what did you discover last and when did you get that information?
MR THANDAKUBONA: When we arrived and I saw this UDF T-shirt so that I
concluded that these are the people with whom we were at war and we then started
to find out as to seeing that they are UDF and SOSCO members, who are these
people giving them instructions to burn people's house, membership of AZAZIM
and killing leaders of AZAPO. This is what we were trying to find out from the,
who their leaders in their areas were. It took some time for them to finally give us
the names of some of the people.
MR MALAN: So you did not get any information from them that they indeed did
burn comrade Jeff's house, that they specifically were responsible for the burning?
MR THANDAKUBONA: I would not say that there's anyone who told me that,
but comrade Motlana indicated to me that the one person he was assaulting did
agree that he was the one involved in the burning of Jeff's house.
MR MALAN: When did he tell you that?
MR THANDAKUBONA: This is something that I had known since I have been
living together with him or since I have been interacting with him over the years.
MR MALAN: So this is way after the - you didn't find that out on that day already.
You didn't know of it on that day. You only learned that from what Motlana since
after the arrest. Is that what your answer comes to?
MR THANDAKUBONA: No I thought you wanted to know as to for how long I
have known this information. I knew this when I arrived at Orlando when we
arrived coming back from town.
MR MALAN: When you went to fetch the car?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.
MR MALAN: So did Motlana then tell you that one of the persons that he
assaulted agreed that he did burn comrade Jeff's house?
MR THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.
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MR MALAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla.
RE-EXAMINANATION BY MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Just
one last question Mr Thandakubona. Do you
have any message to the families, what is your attitude now looking at it, at the
whole incident, with hindsight, now with maturity after having grown, what would
you say?
MR THANDAKUBONA: The things that happened are so painful, maybe people
died innocently and this was all because there was this squabble, the conflict
between the different organisations and this would be enough for a person to be
killed. I know myself that we would be arrested for carrying out the horrendous
deeds. I would like to say that things happened in a very very bad way. We
believed that the political system was going to change. I acknowledge as well that
innocent blood was shed, I beg for apology.
MR TLOUBATLA: No further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TLOUBATLA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla do you have witnesses to call or is this your case.
MR TLOUBATLA: This is my case Mr Chairman but the only thing that I've been
requested by my clients is that should the committee wish to call AZAPO itself or
any officials, they will be available but otherwise we are closing our case.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja well if (indistinct) we should do that, of course it should be
understood that we do not run the case for the
applicants.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you that will be the case for the applicants, there is
nothing ... (inaudible - end of tape)
CHAIRPERSON: There is some confusion to an extent about the name Sam,
particularly as used in the indictment and at some point it could give the
impression that Mr Mphoreng is also known as Sam and for that reason we would
like to have Mr Mphoreng back into the witness box. Mr Mphoreng would you
please come back?
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MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: (s.u.o.)
CHAIRPERSON: Are you also known as Sam?
MR MPHORENG: Sam is not my name.
CHAIRPERSON: I see, alright thank you. I don't know if anybody would like to
put questions, in fact I was asking this question within the context of the
indictment, in particular the summary of material facts or substantial facts because
there is a name which appears, Willie Edward Ndebele, Sam and then (Atasios
Mphoreng) and ordinarily one - if there's some confusion here because if one had
to apply the rules of grammar superficially one might think that Atasios Mphoreng
means Sam but if you apply the rules of grammar strictly, if that were to be the
case there would have been no comma after Sam so for that reason I thought that
this witness should come back and if there is anybody wanting to ask him
questions in that regard. Mr Brink?
MR BRINK: No thank you Mr Chairman.
MR TLOUBATLA: No questions Mr Chairman, thank you.
MR AMEEN: None from me either Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen you will appreciate that this aspect is of some
importance, with regard to the proposition that you made. You made to the
applicants yesterday or day before, you suggested to them that they are only
incriminating or mentioning the name of Sam and Tamee because they are dead so
it would appear that in fact the name of Sam was mentioned, not for the first time
at this proceedings, but most probably as long ago as when, at the very least, the
indictment was put up.
MR AMEEN: My understanding is that the references to comrade Sam and
comrade Tamee were to those two people who are deceased by these applicants
and not to one of them.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, not one of them but I'm saying that you put it to the
applicants that - you suggested to the applicants - you remember, you opening
words: "If I may be sinister", "cynical" I'm sorry, your words were: "If I may be
cynical".
MR AMEEN: I remember.
CHAIRPERSON: You remember those words?
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MR AMEEN: Yes I remember.
CHAIRPERSON: And then you went on to suggest that Sam and Tamee were not
involved, were not incriminated in some way but that they had just been put in now
because they are dead.
MR AMEEN: Right.
CHAIRPERSON: Or perhaps to be more precise with your suggestion, I had
understood that you were suggesting that they were just in general being
incriminated now that they are dead. I thought you went that far, but I'm told that
you're merely saying that - you were restricting your remarks to the giving of the
order.
MR AMEEN: To the giving of the order, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: You did not want to go so far as to suggest that they are just
being incriminated generally because they are dead. It's not what you're saying?
MR AMEEN: If I can just summarise what my understanding is. As far as the two
survivors are concerned, comrade Sam and comrade Tamee - according to
evidence of Mr Hlasa he was accompanied by comrade Sam and comrade Tamee
and that is those three comrade Hlasa, Sam and Tamee, the late Sam, the late
Tamee killed three of them.
CHAIRPERSON: Two.
MR AMEEN: No killed three.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, yes as you see it, yes.
MR AMEEN: Can I just check this?
CHAIRPERSON: Well the number doesn't really matter, it doesn't matter, yes.
MR AMEEN: Alright. And my point was that they were now being incriminated
because they were dead and that this reference to Sam in these, in the summary of
facts is probably to one of the applicants here.
CHAIRPERSON: Well you must be wrong. Well that's precisely the point that the
witness was coming to testify. You remember I asked the previous witness -
amongst the all of them, the whole group that committed this crime whether
besides Sam Siema there was any other Sam. Mr Thandakubona said there wasn't
any other Sam and then for a moment we thought that, looking at the summary of
facts, Sam could possibly - one could possibly say Sam was Mr Mphoreng and
that's why he came in to say that Sam is not his name. So the only Sam being
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incriminated here, because there is a Sam incriminated in the indictment, are you
aware of that? Paragraph 6, page 33 if your bundle is paginated. You see paragraph
6?
MR AMEEN: Yes, the 4th line of paragraph 6.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes it says: "Pitso, Sam, Kabelo and Glen took this people and
then went to go and shoot them". On the evidence before us who is Sam?
MR AMEEN: On the evidence before us it is only comrade Sam Siema.
CHAIRPERSON: That's right.
So it would mean that - I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, we have made no
findings as yet, it will mean that we will have to treat with caution you argument or
you suggestion that Sam Siema is only being incriminated now.
MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman would Mr Brink be able to help us in that respect
whether Sam was actually - who the reference is to Sam there in terms of ...
(intervention)
MR BRINK: Mr Chairman the papers I have are exactly the same but I noticed that
as well and I've overscored in yellow this question of Sam being possibly Atasios
Mphoreng, the second applicant in this matter but I can only going by the evidence
being led and it appears clearly the Sam who was involved in this matter was not
one of the applicants.
MR MALAN: May I just ask of Mr Ameen?
MR AMEEN: On page 1 of - on page 32, paragraph 1 there is a reference to Sam
in the 7th line, Sam, Atasios Mphoreng.
CHAIRPERSON: That is what I've been talking about. You remember when I
referred to rules of grammar a short while ago well I was referring precisely to this.
MR AMEEN: But using that Mr Chairman, with respect, then that reference to
Sam in here and in the summary of facts would be to Mr Mphoreng?
CHAIRPERSON: But that's the whole point, I called him in, that's why I brought
him in and he says it's not him. And another thing is if you say that - look at the
very sentence you're looking at, would you have put a comma there after Sam?
MR AMEEN: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Ordinarily I mean.
MR AMEEN: Ordinarily no, I wouldn't have.
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CHAIRPERSON: I'm just raising that because we are talking construction here,
constructing a sentence. I mean in terms of strict rules of grammar you wouldn't
say Sam, and then bracket because once you say that I could just as well ask you
why then why can't Atasios Mphoreng not be the next person, (indistinct) why
can't he be? Once you disregard that, the basic rule of grammar, the significance of
that comma, once you disregard that then I can just as well as you why don't you
disregard it at the end of the second bracket. I mean you can't pick and choose the
construction you want to have.
ADV BOSMAN: By the same argument of course one could ask the question, I'm
just sort of throwing this out, one could ask the question but then why, by the rules
of grammar, are there brackets around Atasios Mphoreng, so it does present some
difficulty but if one goes on reading then within the context it would appear as
though the brackets are the error.
MR MALAN: Chair if - I don't think this will take us much further but clearly in
the mind of whoever drafted these summary of facts, Sam and Mphoreng was the
same man, comma or no comma because Mphoreng's name does not appear
anywhere else in the summary of facts. But if I may ask Mr Ameen ...
(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No it does.
MR MALAN: Where does it appear again in that paragraph?
CHAIRPERSON: ... (inaudible)
MR MALAN: Yes that's right, he refers to but the reference to those people
involved are in the first paragraph at that stage and Mphoreng gave evidence that
he was involved, but all I'm arguing is we need to sort that out in our own good
time we won't take it further from the intention of the drafter here what really was
said there.
CHAIRPERSON: In case people did not appreciate why I called in this witness, I
called this witness to place the evidence on record that he is not Sam, and he has
said he is not Sam and we are not about to call him Sam when he says he is not
Sam so if - I'm going back again in case anybody missed the significance of that
please say so. If need be we should call back the witness.
MR AMEEN: I think let's call back the witness and ask him exactly what the
situation is.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because if you don't put questions to him and he comes in
the witness box and he says I am not Sam then we can't just say well you are Sam.
Well did you want to put questions to him in that regard?
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MR AMEEN: In that regard ... (inaudible)
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes please, unless you intend to call the Attorney General
who drafted this thing?
MR MALAN: Chairman may I just ask Mr Ameen when the statement was put to
the witness yesterday about the convenience of the death of Sam and Tamee, was it
put to them that the victims will give evidence that these two people weren't
involved at all at any stage, or was it put to them that they did not give orders at all.
Can you just clarify that to us?
MR AMEEN: The victims are not certain about the identities of Sam and Tamee
right, and the way I intended it was that these two were dead and that has been
confirmed to me by Mr Tloubatla, that comrade Sam and comrade Tamee are
deceased and what I was saying to the witness was that he was using them, because
they were deceased, to say that these two were the ones that had given us orders to
kill when there were other people, other leaders who could have given orders.
MR MALAN: They are not saying that these two people weren't involved at any
stage?
MR AMEEN: No they do say that they are involved, yes I am aware of that.
CHAIRPERSON: Then there's not problem I think, then there's no problem. Then
it is almost common cause that the Sam and Tamee were also involved in the
killing of the people. If it's not common cause, at least your clients don't dispute it.
MR AMEEN: To put it crudely or to put it commonly what I was saying to them
was that they were passing the buck onto people who had died.
CHAIRPERSON: But your point will stand whether or not this is Sam or not. In
that case your point will stand whether Sam Siema is the only Sam or not. So in
that case do you still want to put questions?
MR AMEEN: There's no reason for that no.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR AMEEN: Simon Morris Mr Chairman.
MR SIMON MORRIS: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Simon on the 1st of
August 1986 you were a scholar ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute. For the record, Mr Ameen for
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the victim Mr Morris. Yes Mr Ameen.
MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Morris on the 1st of August 1986 you
were a pupil at Madweleni (?) High School in Orlando West?
MR MORRIS: I was a pupil at Madweleni High School doing Standard 10 in 1986.
MR AMEEN: And on that particular day school was disrupted at round about nine
or ten in the morning?
MR MORRIS: Yes there were disruptions, particularly in our school because
soldiers came to assembly and then they dismissed us to go home.
ADV SIGODI: Sorry Mr Ameen. Mr Morris what language are you going to give
your evidence in?
MR MORRIS: I'll prefer English.
ADV SIGODI: English, okay.
MR AMEEN: The other five victims, the survivor, Mr Sekano and the four
deceased, were they attending the same school with you?
MR MORRIS: Yes correctly because Mr Sekano Kgase was doing Standard 6 at
that time and the other four ... (intervention)
MR AMEEN: Just confine yourself to ... (intervention)
MR MORRIS: Okay.
MR AMEEN: They were attending the same school with you?
MR MORRIS: Yes the same school.
MR AMEEN: And after school was disrupted, you met in the course of the day?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
MR AMEEN: The six of you?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
MR AMEEN: And from the, aside from your normal activities, you played football
until about two o' clock?
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MR MORRIS: From the school we went home, to our respective homes, and then
we met again about eleven o'clock because Vuyani used to go to his home on
Fridays so he stayed with my neighbour which was Msilana Sishange.
MR AMEEN: Right. And you played - from then on you played football until
about two?
MR MORRIS: Not particularly football, we played tennis in the street.
MR AMEEN: Right. And then which part of Orlando was this in that you were
playing?
MR MORRIS: We were playing in our street just nearby our homes.
MR AMEEN: And after you finished playing, where did you go to?
MR MORRIS: As usual Vuyani used to go to his mother at Orlando East. He asked
us to accompany him to his home.
MR AMEEN: That is all six of you went to his, were going towards his home?
MR MORRIS: Ja.
MR AMEEN: Now at some point on the way to his home you were accosted. Can
you tell the committee who were you accosted by. Just who were you accosted by?
MR MORRIS: I think the first applicant and the second one because the first
applicant produced a firearm just at the passage, you mentioned the church, the
Presbyterian Church. They came out of the passage, it was about I think 60 metres
from Vuyani's home.
MR AMEEN: Mr Morris who accosted you.
MR MORRIS: Mr Hlasa, I don't know if it's Hlasa or (indistinct)
MR AMEEN: Was he accompanied by any other people?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
MR AMEEN: Who was he accompanied by?
MR MORRIS: The other two.
MR AMEEN: The other two?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
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MR AMEEN: Right. How were you accosted?
MR MORRIS: Mr Hlasa came forward and asked for a cigarette and all of us did
not smoke, we said we didn't have a cigarette.
MR AMEEN: Right.
MR MORRIS: And then from there he produced a firearm and said we have burnt
a house in Orlando West. We said no and then from there the other two
accompanied him, they surrounded us.
MR AMEEN: And where did they take you to?
MR MORRIS: At gunpoint we were told to prove our innocence so we went with
them through the passage, through other two streets and then at the corner of the
second street that is where we met a group of other people.
MR AMEEN: And what happened at that point?
MR MORRIS: We were forced at gunpoint to enter the cars because we were
trying to - they said we must go to that house and prove our innocence.
MR AMEEN: What cars were these?
MR MORRIS: The Chevrolet 41 which was red in colour.
MR AMEEN: Right and the other?
MR MORRIS: And a Mazda 323 because if I remember correctly the number plate
of the Mazda was CKL2, I think 2 something but it was CKL.
MR AMEEN: Right. All six of you then were taken in these cars to a house?
MR MORRIS: Yes we were taken to a house in our street.
MR AMEEN: Right, and what happened at that house?
MR MORRIS: When we entered the house of the person who alleged that we burnt
a house, the cars went to the backyard. We were told at gunpoint to come out. We
came out of the cars. Mr Mphoreng was also taking out the gun again, we were
forced into the kitchen where we met - when we entered the kitchen we found
about nine to eleven men, seemingly they were painting.
MR AMEEN: And did this house bear any signs that it had been petrol bombed or
burnt?
MR MORRIS: There was no sign.
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MR AMEEN: Right. What happened once you got into the kitchen?
MR MORRIS: When we entered the kitchen they said they were waiting for us.
MR AMEEN: Right, and then, what happened then?
MR MORRIS: The torturing started because the kitchen did not have any furniture.
There was a table there with about four to five guns with magazines, there were
also hunting knives, there was an axe, there was an aerial, a car aerial and then we
were told to strip down, we did that. We were given old clothes ... (intervention)
MR AMEEN: Can I just remind you, were there any iron rods on the table?
MR MORRIS: Yes, yes there were iron rods. Our money was taken, watches were
taken, the running shoes, because all of us had running shoes, were taken and if I
remember correctly the very same guy took my running shoes.
MR AMEEN: The very same guy, that is who?
MR MORRIS: This one.
MR AMEEN: Is that the first applicant, who are you pointing to?
MR MORRIS: I'm referring to the first applicant.
MR AMEEN: Mr Hlasa?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
MR AMEEN: Right.
MR MORRIS: And as I was wearing a tracksuit, because I was a player of Keiser
Chiefs, he even took the top of the tracksuit. We were given old trousers and we
were also given the curtain wires to fasten the trousers. Well the torturing then
continued from there.
MR AMEEN: How long did this continue in the kitchen?
MR MORRIS: In the kitchen I think it is more than one to two hours.
MR AMEEN: Do you want to give the committee more details of the torture?
MR MORRIS: Yes definitely. At one point we were told to stretch our arms, just
like Jesus Christ when he was on the cross, and then they will take a but of the gun
and then hit you on the ribs. At another point we were told to close our eyes and
then they will hit you on the face with the iron rods. At one stage we were told to
lie down and then they will stamp on top of your head.
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MR AMEEN: With their feet?
MR MORRIS: Yes. At one point, I think I remember correctly, the other guy, I
don't know his name, he said he was practising his boxing skills on my body. I
think it was so terrible when one remembers. I'm surprised that they are saying
they can't remember the details.
MR AMEEN: Were you, did you scream?
MR MORRIS: Yes a lot.
MR AMEEN: The people who were with you who were being tortured with you,
were they screaming?
MR MORRIS: Yes all of us screamed.
MR AMEEN: You mentioned - no you didn't mention. Was there any music
playing in the house?
MR MORRIS: The music was playing so high, probably to make the neighbours
not to be aware of what was happening inside the house.
MR AMEEN: At what stage were you removed from the kitchen?
MR MORRIS: We were then divided into two groups.
MR AMEEN: Of how many?
MR MORRIS: Of three.
MR AMEEN: Who was in your group?
MR MORRIS: In the bedroom which was in it was myself, Sekano and Vuyani
Nkomo.
MR AMEEN: Sekano is the other survivor?
MR MORRIS: Yes. We then entered that bedroom, it was the front bedroom facing
the street. We were then tortured again because they told us we did not come up
with the right answers, which answers I don't know because even today I don't
know why we were tortured, why some of us died and why maybe today I'm here
because they don't give us the right answers.
MR AMEEN: What - they obviously wanted information from you. Can you
remember what information they wanted?
MR MORRIS: They said we burnt a house, the house, that particular house.
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MR AMEEN: And you saw no signs of burning?
MR MORRIS: No. Even the burning we never knew about the burning of the
house. Even the activities that they claim we were SOSCO members, they must be
embarrassed to call us SOSCO members because we were never involved in
politics.
MR AMEEN: What other information did they want from you?
MR MORRIS: They said who were causing trouble in the location. We did not
know who were the people causing trouble.
MR AMEEN: Did you or any of the others who were abducted or kidnapped that
day, give them information about going around (indistinct) houses?
MR MORRIS: No.
CHAIRPERSON: I didn't understand the other sentence about SOSCO. Is you
evidence that you were not members of SOSCO at all or is your evidence that you
were members of SOSCO but SOSCO was not involved at all in politics?
MR MORRIS: We were never involved in politics.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you members of SOSCO?
MR MORRIS: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR AMEEN: Continue about the torturing in the bedroom.
MR MORRIS: At some stage we were told to lie under the bed to sleep because
this was the last day for us, that's what they said. We got into the bed, I think it's a
small bed, we pretended to be sleeping.
MR AMEEN: That is under the bed?
MR MORRIS: Under the bed. Music was still going on, playing very high and
some of them were drinking at that stage because as they frequented in the
bedroom one will hear that they are drinking beer because there was also beer in
that bedroom. And at one stage I was called out because the other guy said:
"(indistinct), I then came out. I was told to lie on top of the bed, I did that. They
took a plastic, a black plastic and tied it around my head. I don't know what type of
material they used to beat my head but it was so painful that I even end up, I did
bite the plastic in order not to suffocate.
MR AMEEN: When you say material, it was an object?
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MR MORRIS: Yes it was an object.
MR AMEEN: A hard object?
MR MORRIS: Yes. He then accused me again of playing for a team which he
doesn't like.
MR AMEEN: When you refer to he, who are you referring to?
MR MORRIS: I'm referring to this chap.
MR AMEEN: That is Mr Hlasa, the first applicant.
MR MORRIS: Ja. He asked me about the activities in Kaiser Chiefs. I then said
that I was a second division player. He then went on asking me why did I play for
this kind of a team because he hated the team, but at that stage I couldn't answer
because remember I was from the plastic, I just kept quiet. And then I was taken to
the kitchen where I met Mbulelo Mabena.
MR AMEEN: And who is Mbulelo Mabena?
MR MORRIS: Mbulelo Mabena is deceased now because he died on the very same
day.
MR AMEEN: He was one of the six of you?
MR MORRIS: Yes. We were instructed to draw up a list of our names and our
addresses because what they said to us they were going to negotiate with our
parents that we are released. They wanted money for us in order to get released.
We then wrote down the list because we though we were going to be released. We
wrote down the list then we gave them the list and then tortured again, went back
to the bedroom, got under the bed and slept again.
MR AMEEN: You were ordered to get under the bed or did you do that
voluntarily?
MR MORRIS: There was no option Mr Ameen because when we were abducted in
Orlando East, if we were really activists we could have ran away, or if you know
that you have done something wrong you always try to hide or run away. We did
not do that, does it come to your mind when somebody does wrong and then just
helplessly without fighting back, we did not fight back.
MR AMEEN: Mr Morris what happened after that.
MR MORRIS: After that I think it was getting dark, maybe between the hours of
seven or eight.
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MR AMEEN: Can I interrupt you and just ask you ... (intervention)
MR MORRIS: There's something I forgot Mr Ameen, my apologies. There was
one incident which happened and I think the third applicant is part and parcel of
that. Where I was told to stand up before getting under the bed, that is when I was
from the kitchen. They said I must untie this wire, this curtain wire.
MR AMEEN: Around your waist.
MR MORRIS: Yes, I did that. Automatically the trouser would then go down
because the trouser did not even have a zip. They then went to the private parts
with a pliers, taking turns in - I don't know what I can call it, torture and they
seemed to enjoy it very much because the one would say no you did not do it well,
give it to me I will do it much better. The other one will then say this is not the way
to do it because there was one stage where the scrotal sac - I hope you understand
what I am saying because the two balls - the one person was trying to just to open
this pliers and then crush it.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry ... (inaudible) crushing the balls?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
MR AMEEN: Were they actually crushed or was he trying to do that?
MR MORRIS: Fortunately as the balls are moving voluntarily maybe he got the
part where the ball was not at that stage.
CHAIRPERSON: I think we understand, I didn't mean actually crush, I just meant
pressing.
MR AMEEN: Right, continue. When did this assault stop?
MR MORRIS: There was a time when I started crying very loudly and was told to
shut up because the other guy whom I did not know said if I keep on screaming he
will blow my brains out and I saw that this was a real gun, it was not a toy gun.
MR AMEEN: How old were you at that time?
MR MORRIS: I was nineteen years old.
MR AMEEN: When did this assault stop?
MR MORRIS: It stopped, I think it took about ten to twenty minutes.
MR AMEEN: That's with the plier?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
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MR AMEEN: The whole assault from the time you were taken into the house, into
the kitchen, into the different bedrooms, when did that stop. The assault and the
interrogation?
MR MORRIS: Do you mean the duration of ... (intervention)
MR AMEEN: Yes the duration of the whole ...
MR MORRIS: When we accompanied Vuyani it was around past two to three.
Possibly when we entered the house it was maybe it was five past three or ten past
three and possibly when we entered or when we moved out of the house it was
about past seven, maybe quarter past or ten past or even half past seven.
MR AMEEN: But it was after dark?
MR MORRIS: Ja.
MR AMEEN: Now up to the point where you are now being taken away from this
house, is there any other material fact or factor that you want to bring to the
attention of the committee?
MR MORRIS: Can you ask that question again?
MR AMEEN: Up to the point where you are being taken away from the house, is
there any other material point that you want to bring to the attention of the
committee?
MR MORRIS: When we were taken out of the house we got instructions that when
we move out of the house we must face down, we must not look on the sides. We
went out and got into the boot of the car.
MR AMEEN: Now were any of you six blindfolded when you got out of the
house.
MR MORRIS: From my sake I don't remember.
MR AMEEN: Were you blindfolded?
MR MORRIS: No not.
MR AMEEN: Which car boot were you ordered to get into?
MR MORRIS: I believe maybe it was the Mazda.
MR AMEEN: And who was with you?
MR MORRIS: In my group?
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MR AMEEN: In your group.
MR MORRIS: In my group it was myself, Sekano Kgase and Vuyani Nkomo.
MR AMEEN: And Vuyani's a deceased?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
MR AMEEN: Or one of the deceased?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
PANEL: ... (inaudible)
MR MORRIS: It was myself, Simon Morris, Edwin Vuyani Nkomo and Sekano
Kgase.
CHAIRPERSON: Earlier on you said that the third applicant started applying the
pliers on you. Who is the third applicant?
MR MORRIS: The third applicant I think is the middle one.
CHAIRPERSON: Just point him out.
MR MORRIS: The middle one.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes indeed you have pointed out Mr Thandakubona.
MR AMEEN: Yes thank you Mr Chairman. All three of you were put into the
boot?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
MR AMEEN: And you were then taken to a house. The applicants have given
evidence that it was comrade Jeff's house. Did you know whose house it was and
where this house was?
MR MORRIS: We did not know who this house was and even the place at that
stage ... (intervention)
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Ameen you said comrade Jeff's house.
MR AMEEN: Sorry my apologies, comrade Glen's house. Thank you Madam
Chair.
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MR MORRIS: Yes we were taken to a house. Personally I was taken from one car
when we entered the yard at the backyard, I was taken from one boot of the car to
another boot of the car.
MR AMEEN: How long were you at this house in the boot of the car at this house?
MR MORRIS: They took some time, about fifteen to twenty minutes.
MR AMEEN: Were you the only person in the boot?
MR MORRIS: I remember Vuyani was called to go into the house, inside and then
when I was in the second they put - because we came out of the boot of the first car
and then I don't know what happened to Sekano, but Vuyani was instructed to go
into the house and I was instructed to get into another boot of the car.
MR AMEEN: Right, so of the two cars, how many cars were there at that point?
MR MORRIS: Probably there were two cars.
MR AMEEN: Right. And you got into the boot of the second car, you were there
in the boot for some time?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
MR AMEEN: And then what happened? You were alone in the boot at that stage?
MR MORRIS: I was alone and the music was also playing very high at that stage
and Vuyani came back, he was bleeding. He could not talk, his was swelling, his
face was swelling.
MR AMEEN: And was he also put into the boot of the same car with you?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
MR AMEEN: Which car was it?
MR MORRIS: I don't know the model of the car because remember we were told
to get out of the car, not to face on the sides and get into another boot of a car.
MR AMEEN: You were then in the boot with Vuyani?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
MR AMEEN: For a while and then you were drive away from there?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
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MR AMEEN: When were you removed from the boot or when did you get out of
the boot?
MR MORRIS: When we reached a, I think it looks like a open veld. We were told
to come out of the boot and again not to look on the sides.
MR AMEEN: Alright. Both of you were taken out of the boot?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
MR AMEEN: Was Vuyani able to get out himself or did you help him or how did
he get out?
MR MORRIS: He struggled because when he came out of the house, as I said his
was swelling, his face was swelling. I tried to ask him what were they saying to
you these people. He could not talk.
MR AMEEN: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until half past eleven.
MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
SIMON MORRIS: (s.u.o.)
EXAMINATION BY MR AMEEN: (cont)
Mr Morris at the break or just before the break we were at the point where you
were now being taken to the scene of the murders. Tell us which of the victims was
in you car with you and tell us how ... (inaudible - end of tape).
MR TLOUBATLA: ... (inaudible) not something serious, I was just concerned
whether the witness is still under oath.
CHAIRPERSON: You are still under oath isn't it Mr Morris, you understand that?
Thank you. Mr Ameen.
MR AMEEN: Right. We were at the point when you now reached the scene of the
murders, you had been taken out of the car. Can you continue from that point?
MR MORRIS: The car stopped at a certain point and when we got out I saw that it
was a veld. When the boot was opened we were told to come out but look down
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but Vuyani was struggling because he seemed to have had injuries, maybe in the
back or maybe the hands because ... (intervention)
MR AMEEN: Which other victims was with you?
MR MORRIS: I was with Vuyani Nkomo inside the boot and I think Sekano was
just inside the car parked in the back seat. We got out, we were told to run towards
a wall.
MR AMEEN: There were three of you?
MR MORRIS: Yes. They said to us, do you see that wall? We looked up and we
saw a wall. They said I want to run from here and if you try to run away we will
shoot you. With barefoot because the veld I think it was not used for some time,
we ran towards the wall. As we reached the wall they picked up spots on the wall,
just like if Vuyani is going to be here, myself in the middle and Sekano on the right
hand side and we were told to lie down and face them.
MR AMEEN: You use the term lie down. What you actually mean to say is that
you were ordered to sit?
MR MORRIS: We were ordered to sit down?
MR AMEEN: In what position?
MR MORRIS: Is it possible to demonstrate to you? Can I take of my jacket
because it's going to disturb me, I know it's not correct.
They were asked to sit down with their backs to the wall with their faces down.
CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me we are beginning to have problems with the
sound system again, it seems as if only one mike at a time is able to operate from
the audience.
MR AMEEN: After the three of you were seated in the manner you've just
demonstrated, what happened then?
MR MORRIS: The three of us, there were also three men one on each and Hlasa,
Mphoreng were also there with the other person, I don't know the other person.
The first shot came out of the gun of I think Hlasa, he shot Sekano.
MR AMEEN: Continue.
MR MORRIS: They then went to the left hand side because I was in the middle
where they shot Edwin Vuyani Nkomo. They then came to me. At that point it was
a matter of life and death.
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MR AMEEN: For you?
MR MORRIS: Yes, because I could hear the shots and also the scream. Hlasa them
came to me at point blank because they were shooting at point blank. He shot me
once in the leg, on the right knee just near the joint. I felt nothing because the
bullet went in through the left hand side of the knee went out through the right
hand side of the knee. I thought I was not shot because I could feel nothing.
Mphoreng then said ... (inaudible) - this dog is not dead. He tried to shoot but the
shots missed me, I don't know how, there were four shots because the gun was
pointing at me and I was not shot. I tried to move because they said: "Can you see
this person is moving, give me that gun", because the gun which was used I think it
jammed, it could not go on shooting so they changed the gun and also the
magazine, if it is the magazine because I don't know whether those are magazines
or not, I only saw it on TV. The other shot then went through my left hand - I don't
know if it is possible that I can show it to the committee? At that point I tried to
block the bullet with this hand and it went in here, it went out this side.
CHAIRPERSON: It went through your left wrist?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
MR AMEEN: Just above the left wrist.
CHAIRPERSON: Just above the wrist.
MR MORRIS: Yes and then it went out here. They seemed to be worried because I
was continuously moving because I felt my hand was so weak now. Unfortunately
when I tried to turn my head because I was facing this side, I tried to move to see if
they were still there. That was when I was shot on my right cheek. The bullet went
in here.
MR MALAN: That's your left cheek?
MR MORRIS: Yes, the left cheek. It went in and stayed just next to the ear here
because it stayed there I think for about seven days. At that point I could not see
anything because the face was swelling. Fortunately the left eye was still operating
because even if the face was swelling, I tried to fight this death. The only thing that
I saw was stars. It's terrible that I have to come to this commission and tell about
the truth when the victims or the people who committed this cannot say the truth.
MR AMEEN: Mr Morris the other three victims, do you know how they were
killed?
MR MORRIS: Is it in the other group?
MR AMEEN: In the other group.
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MR MORRIS: No, I only saw their photographs when I was first, I think after the
incident by a Sergeant - I don't know whether it is Sergeant or Warrant Officer
Diedericks from Protea, where I had to go and write a statement. He showed me
the photographs of the other three and at that stage I think Oscar Mlangeni was still
alive because he was shot but he was not dead at that time, he died about twenty
eight days after the incident in a coma.
MR AMEEN: Right. Is there anything else you wish to add?
MR MORRIS: After being shot in the left cheek I was missed again by about seven
bullets because the other one said: "We must finish this dog, this dog is still
moving" and through God I think because if it was not for God I was not going to
be here. So I was missed by four bullets from there they congratulated themselves
that they have done a good job. They then went to the car.
MR AMEEN: Before they went to the car and after or around the time that they
congratulated themselves and before the shooting was over, at some point they
asked you to take a message to someone. Can you tell the commission about that
message.
MR MORRIS: The message was specifically to be conveyed by Sekano Kgase
because they said to Sekano Kgase he must convey the blessings and the greetings
to their leader Steve Biko.
MR AMEEN: After they left what did you do?
MR MORRIS: After they left I felt that I was still alive because even if I saw stars,
I could only see stars, because even today I only see stars in my face, I called up
Edwin Nkomo, he did not answer. I then called up Sekano Kgase, he answered. He
then said to me: "Let us try to run away". I then insisted to him let us check Edwin
Nkomo if he's still alive. That is when I felt that I was shot in the leg because I was
feeling the pain because of the cold and also the bleeding of the leg. I went to
Edwin Nkomo, he was dead because when I felt his pulse in the arm and also the
heartbeat it was not there. I felt, I touched the head, it was only blood that I felt and
he was dead.
MR AMEEN: What did the two of you do then?
MR MORRIS: I said to Sekano he must take my hand, my right hand because I
could not see and I was struggling with my right knee. We then moved from the
spot, from there I said to him: "Which place is this?", he said: "I don't know".
Fortunately we saw the house, the corner house. We went into the yard of that
house and as we entered the house or the yard there were some people maybe who
stayed in that house, outside they were just talking.
MR AMEEN: And did you get assistance at this house?
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MR MORRIS: We tried to communicate to this people but they were speaking
Shangan, it was possibly it was Shawella, but fortunately we were able to convey
the message through Zulu - (inaudible). They then started asking questions, where
are you from because they were surprised this kids with old clothes, where do they
come from bleeding. We entered the kitchen of that house and if it was not the
mother of that house I could be dead by now because I was now feeling the pain of
the swelling wound in the head ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: I think you should direct your client Mr Ameen.
MR AMEEN: Thank you. Mr Morris the shooting is over, you've now come to this
house, from here you've managed to get assistance and you were taken to hospital.
MR MORRIS: Ja the mother of that house phoned our homes and also the hospital.
MR AMEEN: Right, you were then taken to hospital?
MR MORRIS: We were then taken to hospital but we also insisted that they must
also go and check the person Edwin who was in that veld.
MR AMEEN: That is the evidence Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR AMEEN
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr
Kgase you say that you left school that day at approximately nine o'clock?
MR MORRIS: Firstly I'm not Mr Kgase, I'm Mr Morris.
MR TLOUBATLA: Sorry, I beg your pardon sir. Mr Morris what time did you
leave school that day?
MR MORRIS: The school was dismissed about nine o'clock.
MR TLOUBATLA: And then right until the time when you were apprehended by
these people, were you with this six friends of yours?
MR MORRIS: From the school we went to our respective homes, except Vuyani
Nkomo who went with Msilana Sishange and from there we then met again at
about eleven o'clock where we organised a tennis ball and started playing. Round
about two o'clock Vuyani asked us to accompany him to his home in Orlando East.
MR TLOUBATLA: You probably heard the evidence of the witnesses, I mean the
applicants, who say that there was a time when a group of about fifteen to twenty
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people were running up and down Jeff Lingani's house or walking around there
chanting songs, intimidating songs, were you a part of that group?
MR MORRIS: No sir.
MR TLOUBATLA: At the time of this incident, when this incident happened, did
you know Jeff Lingani?
MR MORRIS: No.
MR TLOUBATLA: Where were you staying?
MR MORRIS: I was staying in Orlando West at (indistinct) Street.
MR TLOUBATLA: So you never saw these people who were singing up and down
this street where Jeff Lingani was staying?
MR MORRIS: No I have no idea about that.
MR TLOUBATLA: At school, at your school Madwaleni (?) were you also a
member of SOSCO?
MR MORRIS: No.
MR TLOUBATLA: Are you aware whether SOSCO was very active at the school?
MR MORRIS: I have no knowledge of that sir because we were school going kids,
I think I was also involved in tutoring classes in our school so I don't know about
the activities of SOSCO or any other group that was involved.
MR TLOUBATLA: You were in your Standard 10, is that not true?
MR MORRIS: Yes sir.
MR TLOUBATLA: Tell me were you aware of, generally in the community, this
massive conflict that was going on between the two political groupings AZAPO
and the UDF?
MR MORRIS: I was not aware because I think at 1986 my aim was just to finish
school and then go either to varsity or to a technikon.
MR TLOUBATLA: How old were you during 1986?
MR MORRIS: I was born in 1967 and I think it's about nineteen years old.
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MR TLOUBATLA: Would you say that when you were interrogated, assaulted at
Jeff Lingani's house, the people who were assaulting you were they very older than
you or were they perhaps your age group?
MR MORRIS: They were older than us.
MR TLOUBATLA: I'm sure you heard the evidence of one of them, that is Mr
Mphoreng, he says at the time he was twenty years.
CHAIRPERSON: But twenty years and nineteen years are not the same sir. There's
a difference of one year there.
MR TLOUBATLA: But one would say it's the same age group, wouldn't you?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, probably of the same generation but not the same age. Now
the question is not the same age, the same age group?
MR MORRIS: Yes they might be the same group.
MR TLOUBATLA: Did you at that time know anything about the organisation
SOSCO?
MR MORRIS: I always read in the newspapers because as a Standard 10 pupil you
are asked to maybe summarise and article or maybe write out something
concerning the debates or that, but the activities of SOSCO or any other group I
don't have no knowledge of that.
MR TLOUBATLA: Did you know anything about AZAPO at that time?
MR MORRIS: I only knew that it was an organisation.
MR TLOUBATLA: I want to refer you to some article. This is an article dated the
24th of November 1986, it was in the Sowetan.
ADV BOSMAN: Is that already an exhibit Mr Tloubatla, not.
MR TLOUBATLA: No, not an exhibit Maam.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you have copies for us Mr Tloubatla?
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman unfortunately I only have this but I can make
them available later on.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla our rules of procedure dictate that anybody using
any document will, in advance, make enough copies and furnish all other interested
parties with a copy of that particular document and you've been springing on us
one document after the other since Monday and you didn't make copies of us and
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you are going to be the only one who is reading that document and putting
questions to the witness. Whether you'll be reading that correctly or accidently
(indistinct) out of context, nobody knows. We are all at your mercy and I think this
is really undesirable.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman, under the circumstances perhaps I will reserve
this to a later stage and when I have enough copies I'll ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Well there may not be a later stage, I think just go on let's see
what happens. There's not going to be a later stage, we must finish this case today
if not before one o'clock.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you sir. I've got an article here it says, I'm just quoting
somewhere in the middle: "This latest wave of killings has horrified the
community. Earlier this year the community was similarly shocked when six
youths, members of the Soweto Student Congress were shot near Shawella after
they had been kidnapped. Four of them died".
CHAIRPERSON: Give us the details, the date?
MR TLOUBATLA: That is 24 November 1986.
MR MALAN: And which paper are you quoting?
MR TLOUBATLA: The Sowetan. Mr Morris I'm referring to the highlighted
portion of the newspaper, can you see that?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: It will be Exhibit G. Do you have any explanation why anybody
would refer to your group as members of the Soweto Student Congress or
something like that?
MR MORRIS: I have no idea about that because what the journalists are writing,
they are writing about something which maybe they get it from somewhere
because I have no knowledge of one time when I met a journalist and talked to a
journalist. Whether he calls us SOSCO members or what, I don't know where he
gets it from.
MR TLOUBATLA: Did you, after this incident, did you subsequently perhaps
make any enquiries as to who Jeff Lingani is?
MR MORRIS: No sir because after the incident I think I suffered a loss, I could not
write the very same year. I went to school the following year, I failed because I
could not recover correctly so whoever this Jefferson was or what he did I did not
even care about that because I don't know why we were shot, why some of us died.
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MR TLOUBATLA: I'm going to refer you to yet another press cutting, it is the
Star date is the 26th of October '86 ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Should this be returned first?
MR TLOUBATLA: Ja, I'm just - listen to me and I'm going to ask you a question
about this. It says: "On Monday night Mr Thabo Lingani ...", sorry. Just one
moment Mr Chair ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Haven't you got any spectacles Mr Tloubatla?
MR TLOUBATLA: I read better without my spectacles sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Then why do you put them on at all?
MR TLOUBATLA: I can see a hazy view of you when I don't have them but the
reading I ... (intervention)
MR MALAN: Perhaps a better view?
MR TLOUBATLA: Alright let me just, because the article is long I'm not going to
read all about it, I'm going to just give you the background to it. Basically Mr
Thabo Lingani - they're talking about Mr Thabo Lingani, Mr Thabo Lingani is the
father of Mr Jeff Lingani, they were staying in Moletsani in Soweto so he was
kidnapped and he was killed, that was subsequent to the incident in which you
were involved so it's basically about that, about Jeff Lingani's father, right.
CHAIRPERSON: If you can't read it, can't you ask your assistant to read it
otherwise bring it here, let's read it to the witness because you are trying to
summarise it and it may not be an accurate summary of what stands there.
MR TLOUBATLA: I can read perfectly sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Well then read it to the witness and didn't you mark the portion
which is supposed to be important to you or highlight it?
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you sir. "It all started eight weeks ago in Orlando West
in Soweto when six young school boys were abducted and driven during the night
to an open veld in Shawella Township where they were shot and then set alight.
Four of the youngsters died and Mr Lingani's other son, Jefferson, was
immediately linked to the abductions and shootings. Reprisal were swift, the
following night Jefferson's house and another next to it were fire bombed, causing
extensive damage. Later a bus was driven into the ruins to complete the effect.
Jefferson was arrested to answer a number of allegations including murder. He was
granted bail but has since disappeared and speculation is that he has left the
country. A warrant for his arrest is held. His house was near the homes of the
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youngsters who had been abducted and shot. It is in this neighbourhood where a
well known former Soweto Student, Mr (indistinct) was also lived". In Mr
Lingani's killing, revenge was the most likely motive. His abductors were looking
for Jefferson and not finding him decided on a member of his family. "And over
the past months ..." that is a quotation, "... over the past months we received
telephone calls threatening us to expect anything". I'm referring to this article in
particular, as you can see immediately after this incident, there were very serious
reprisals, revenge killings. Mr Morris do you know who avenged the death of your
friends, you know your injuries and who are those people who went out to go and
kill Jeff Lingani to avenge what you went through?
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Tloubatla now if I understand it correctly it was an inference
that the journalist drew there, I don't think it's fair to put it to the witness that it was
in fact a revenge killing unless I misunderstood the reading because I did not have
it before me.
MR TLOUBATLA: Well Madam Bosman it's true that some of them are
inferences, but we are basically working on inferences. I mean it is my basic
understanding that the witness will either deny any knowledge of that but some of
these things are basically based on rumours, on inferences and all that and it is my
understanding that the killing of Mr Lingani it was a direct sequel after the incident
in which they were involved.
ADV BOSMAN: I think it would be fair to put it to the witness that it was a direct
sequel and ask him whether it was a reprisal and whether he knows about it.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Maam, I'll do so. Right, in October, just about two
months thereafter, Mr Lingani's father was killed the way it is described in the
newspaper. It is obviously as inference that it was a reprisal killing, in fact even the
newspapers are putting it that way. Do you have any knowledge as to who could
possibly have avenged what you went through?
MR MORRIS: With respect sir I have no knowledge of what you are talking about
because if you mentioned the bus and the burning of the (indistinct), I was
discharged at Baragwanath on the ninth of August 1986 and from there, because of
I could not go on writing because at Baragwanath I was taken to St Johns where
my eyes were tested and the one doctor prescribed me that I should learn to read
braille because I was not going to cope up with the exams so the decision was then
to consult my father and mother. From there on ... (intervention)
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you I think that is sufficient but ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla can I have the date of that newspaper?
MR TLOUBATLA: He has got it with him. Thank you. Mr Morris it is my feeling
and I want to agree with the newspapers that you know these two incidents, that is
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your incident where you were killed, I mean where your friends were killed and
you were so much tortured, they are so closely linked that it is my feeling that the
inference that I'm making that it was to avenge what you went through. Do you see
it the same way as myself?
MR MORRIS: With respect sir again I think when you say it is your feelings, you
have a right to say it is your feelings and even the journalists have a right to write
whatever they want to write about their own feelings but ... (intervention)
MR TLOUBATLA: No, I want your feelings, I know our feelings I can ...
(intervention)
MR MORRIS: Yes. I think it is the first time that I see that newspaper article.
MR TLOUBATLA: Yes but please understand me, do you agree with me, do you
agree with the newspaper that this was definitely to avenge what you went
through?
MR MORRIS: I have no knowledge of that sir.
MR MALAN: Could I ask you Mr Morris, did you have knowledge of the death of
Mr Lingani, of Jeff's father?
MR MORRIS: No sir.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
MR TLOUBATLA: I'm going to take you further on this matter. The reason
basically why I'm putting this feeling of mine to you, it's simply to say that you are
not telling the commission the truth when you say you knew nothing about
SOSCO, you knew nothing about the rivalries between these two organisations
because there it is, somebody went out of his way to go and avenge what you went
through, that's why I am putting this through to you, that you personally are
definitely not telling the truth.
MR MORRIS: With respect sir, can you then put the questions to prove that I'm
not a SOSCO member or even my friends who died because they cannot answer
for themselves now. We are the only two that survived so we can relate what
happened. So if you are saying to me that I am not telling the truth, with respect I
must convey my apologies to you.
CHAIRPERSON: Let's handle this in a different way. On the face of it this article
is relevant and important and we are here to seek the truth and must get to it by all
means. The other people, the five do you know whether any one of them was a
member of SOSCO?
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MR MORRIS: No, no sir.
CHAIRPERSON: You don't know?
MR MORRIS: I know that they were not even a member of any single
organisation.
CHAIRPERSON: How can you know that?
MR MORRIS: We used to go to stadiums because we grew up from childhood. On
Fridays we used to play soccer at the grounds late in the afternoon and also
Mondays and on Saturdays we used to go to Wits Saturday School which was
conducted by - I don't know, Wits Saturday School and then as a soccer player,
either Saturday or Sunday I was required to do my duties at Keiser Chiefs and the
others would then follow me maybe to come and see where I'm playing.
CHAIRPERSON: The impression you give us is that you in particular was totally
uninterested in politics?
MR MORRIS: Yes sir.
CHAIRPERSON: That may or may not be so, but isn't it so, don't we know that we
all know that since 1976 high school students have demonstrated clear interest in
political activism. Am I right in my statement?
MR MORRIS: You are right, but not all students are involved or are interested in
politics.
CHAIRPERSON: And you were in Standard 10?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And again, I preface my question to you by saying it may or
may not be so but we do know, don't we, that Matric students in many instances
were in fact in the forefront of student politics. Isn't that so?
MR MORRIS: They might be but not all of them.
CHAIRPERSON: And we do know, don't we, that particularly in Soweto there was
a lot of political activism amongst students. Isn't that so?
MR MORRIS: Yes that was so.
CHAIRPERSON: Now I want to know from you, was there political activism in
your school?
MR MORRIS: I have no knowledge of that sir.
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CHAIRPERSON: How big is the school. Does is not comprise of hundreds of
students?
MR MORRIS: It comprises of hundreds of students but all the students are not
doing the same activity because as I said earlier on that I was involved as a tutor,
we did not have teachers so we used to help each other tutoring so whatever
happened outside, whatever happened in other classrooms, it was not our business
sir.
CHAIRPERSON: So is it your evidence that as far as you know, there has not be
political activism at your school?
MR MORRIS: No sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that your evidence?
MR MORRIS: Yes sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well, then let us look at this ... (intervention)
ADV SIGODI: Just a matter on that aspect of political activism. Why were you
dismissed at nine o'clock that morning?
MR MORRIS: There were I think trucks or even delivery vehicles which were, I
can say they were looted by other schools in our vicinity so the police went from
one school to another school, they then came to us when we had assembly. We
were then instructed to go home on that Friday.
ADV SIGODI: So the students from your school were not involved in the looting
or ... (intervention)
MR MORRIS: No, we had assembly at that point and the soldiers just came in. At
the assembly they talked to our principle. We were then told by one teacher that
the school is dismissed because the soldiers were saying the gate must be closed
and teachers must go home so we went home.
CHAIRPERSON: During your days as a student at that school, was there ever a so-
called school boycott?
MR MORRIS: I have no knowledge of that.
CHAIRPERSON: If it had been there I would expect you to know.
MR MORRIS: If it had been there maybe it was going to be there, but I have no
knowledge of that sir.
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CHAIRPERSON: Sometimes we have problems expressing ourselves, when you
say you have no knowledge of that, I'm not sure whether you are saying as far as
you're concerned it did not happen or whether you're saying it might have
happened, but I don't remember.
MR MORRIS: It did not happen.
ADV SIGODI: Just on the aspect of the boycott, you've just said that you were
tutoring?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
ADV SIGODI: Why were you tutoring?
MR MORRIS: I was tutoring maths at our school.
ADV SIGODI: Why?
MR MORRIS: We did not have a Standard 9 and Standard 10 teacher so the
material that we got from Wits Saturday School I used to bring it to our school and
maybe other classmates duplicate the material because we didn't have teachers for
two years, specifically maths and physics.
ADV SIGODI: Did you have teachers for other subjects?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Now let me ask you questions about this article which Mr
Tloubatla showed to you. It implied that after what happened to you, there was
retribution. In other words it was a revenge carried out on Lingani or Lingani's
father.
MR MORRIS: Yes that is what the article is saying.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. It said the following night Jefferson's house and another
next to it were fire bombed etc, etc and later a bus was driven into the ruins to
complete the fact. Now this was quite something, this was quite a huge destruction,
the house was petrol bombed and from there a bus driven over it to make sure that
it's flattened.
MR MORRIS: At that point I was still at Baragwanath ICU.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes and in fact I don't think that any of the six of you could
have been responsible for that.
MR MORRIS: Yes sir.
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CHAIRPERSON: But if you, know that we know that you the victims could not
have been involved at all, if you are not attached to some kind of organisation or if
you're not attached to some kind of a large organisation, who possibly could have
done this in revenge. That is the crux of the question?
MR MORRIS: Well I don't know who could have possibly done that because as
I've mentioned earlier that being not involved in politics, one cannot account
maybe for the newspaper article which was written or may the events which took
place after we were shot because we were even surprised, we were shot we were
asked questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes I hear you, you say you don't know, but I'm just putting it
across to you that this is the context in which it has been put to you.
MR MORRIS: Yes that is the context.
MR MALAN: Chair may I just ask Mr Morris, why could it not have been one of
the UDF organisations that came with this reprisal ... (inaudible) being aligned to
AZAPO, having made an attack on youngsters. The question is put to you from the
article. Is it an unreasonable inference to see it as a revenge or retaliation?
MR MORRIS: That is what the article is saying it says a retaliation, from who I
don't have any knowledge of that sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Tloubatla.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just something. Did you - Mr Tloubatla asked you
whether you had knowledge of this huge conflict that prevailed between AZAPO
and UDF and you said you did not
have such knowledge?
MR MORRIS: Yes I did not have such a knowledge.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you really be serious about that when we see articles in the
newspapers that even church people were called in to mitigate, to try and resolve
that. Wasn't such a conflict really a matter of public knowledge to anybody, to
everybody in the area?
MR MORRIS: It can be a matter of public knowledge but to me personally I have
no idea of what was going on because even the article I asked from - I saw an
article at Mr Tloubatla's desk today, youth killed - do you remember Mr Tloubatla?
MR TLOUBATLA: Yes.
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MR MORRIS: And then I just saw the headlines because at school now, I'm a
teacher now, I think looking at the headlines and also the summary you tend to ...
(inaudible).
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Tloubatla?
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman thank you. I am going back to this (indistinct) of
political activity, particularly amongst the six of you. You say you are certain that
all the six of you, none of them were involved in any political activity. Are you
saying that?
MR MORRIS: Yes I'm saying that.
MR TLOUBATLA: And you also admitted that you personally, you were not
involved in any political activity?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
MR TLOUBATLA: Can you preclude the possibility that one of your friends could
have been involved, could actually have been a member of some other
organisations?
MR MORRIS: No, no one in our group as growing up kids. The only thing that we
liked I think it was clothes and school, not politics.
MR TLOUBATLA: Are you saying that none of your friends were in any way
involved in any political activity?
MR MORRIS: That is what I'm saying, none of us were involved in politics.
MR TLOUBATLA: But did your friends or in allegiance to you says that whatever
they did they had to report to you such that you had to know, even if you were not
involved in politics.
MR MORRIS: There was no report of such happenings.
MR TLOUBATLA: Perhaps you don't understand my question. My question is,
did they owe you so much allegiance that despite the fact that they knew that you
were not involved in politics, they would even report to you if they were involved
in any political activity?
MR MORRIS: They were not involved in politics, they were not involved in
politics and because the other four ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just a minute. I think you may be advised to say not as far
as I know because you must remember in 1986 for example, some of these
organisations were banned and people who were members thereof did not disclose
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that. The ANC was still banned, the PAC was still banned, they were operating
underground and you know there were many people who were members of such
organisations, confidentially or secretly or underground. I don't know whether you
really want to insist that, to put your head on the block and say they were never a
member of any organisation. Don't you think you should qualify your answer by
saying as far as I know.
MR MORRIS: If it goes to a point of putting my head on a block, I'll do that
because I'm saying they were not involved in politics, I cannot say as far as that
because I have no knowledge of that. That is an assumption which I will be
making, but I'm saying they were not involved in politics as I was also not
involved in politics.
CHAIRPERSON: Well there you are Mr Tloubatla he's putting it in the strongest
possible terms. He's prepared to put his head on the block for it.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Right, now let's move on to your
school. Was there any political activity at your school at the time?
MR MORRIS: No sir.
MR TLOUBATLA: I'm putting it to you that that school will be the most
extraordinary school in 1986 in Soweto not to have any form of political activity. I
am putting it to you. Do you have any response to what I'm saying?
MR MORRIS: Yes I do have a response. What I'm putting back to you sir, with
kind respect, is that there were no politics in our school.
CHAIRPERSON: Any student movement?
MR MORRIS: No sir.
MR TLOUBATLA: Do you know whether any of the students at Madweleni High
School were perhaps involved in political activity, even if it's outside the school?
MR MORRIS: No I have no knowledge of that sir.
MR TLOUBATLA: And you can't exclude the possibility that some of them were
involved in political activity?
MR MORRIS: I cannot account for what I don't know sir, just what I know.
MR TLOUBATLA: In as far as your knowledge goes, do you know of any
schools, except yours, any high school in Soweto at the time where there was
hardly any political activity?
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MR MORRIS: I have no knowledge of that because our focus was just only going
through the high school and then going either to a university or technikon.
MR TLOUBATLA: Do you know whether generally, around that time, students
particularly your age were very active in politics?
MR MORRIS: Yes they might have been active in politics, but not us, specifically
not myself and other.
MR TLOUBATLA: I don't refer to you, not you not your group basically, I'm
saying generally, students in general in Soweto around that time who were very,
very active in politics?
MR MORRIS: That could have happened but not in our school.
MR MALAN: Mr Tloubatla do you have anything specific to put to the witness on
disruptions in his school at that time and if not, should we proceed with this kind of
questioning?
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, no. I'm going to put it to you for the
last time Mr Morris you are not honest to this commission. You are not telling the
truth when you say particularly at your school that there were not politics at all,
that students were not involved in political activity. I put it to you that you are just
simply saying this to try and paint some image of a very innocent, disinterested
citizen or student who was abducted by some thugs. That's basically what you're
trying to give to this commission and you're not truthful to yourself and to us all?
MR MORRIS: Kindly, with respect sir, are you putting these words into my
mouth, are you saying I'm telling the truth - I'm telling lies in fact?
MR TLOUBATLA: I'm saying so, particularly with political activity at your
school.
MR MORRIS: Yes, I've said no. If you have any other questions that makes you to
doubt whether I'm saying the lies or maybe I'm saying not the truth, then why don't
you ask other questions because I'm saying to you I'm putting my head on the
block on this one because even at now I'm not involved in politics. Should I say
now because of the climate of the country I'm involved in politics?
MR TLOUBATLA: I'm talking about your school at the time, not you personally.
MR MORRIS: Yes.
MR TLOUBATLA: Please refer to that.
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CHAIRPERSON: Your answer is that when you say your school was not involved
in politics, you are not lying, you are telling the truth?
MR MORRIS: Yes sir.
CHAIRPERSON: There's your answer.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now let's move on to the assaults on
you at the house of Jeff Lingani. You told us in detail how you were assaulted but
one specific assault that I want to refer to, you say you were hit with an iron bar.
Which part of the body were you hit with that iron bar and how severe was it?
MR MORRIS: When I was hit with the iron bar it was in the bedroom when I was
blindfolded with the plastic. I was then hit in the body with an iron bar. When I
came back from the kitchen again I was then tortured with a plier.
MR TLOUBATLA: So with the iron bar you were hit - which part of the body
were you hit?
MR MORRIS: The iron bar was applied randomly, so if it hits the body,
automatically the head will also be affected because they were just hitting like that,
if you are using maybe a stick.
MR TLOUBATLA: Sorry, with this iron bar you were hit all over the body. Is that
how I understand it?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
MR TLOUBATLA: Was it hard?
MR MORRIS: How can I say it is soft Mr Tloubatla?
MR TLOUBATLA: No.
CHAIRPERSON: In all fairness to yourself Mr Morris the - when you speak of the
iron bar is it the object which was used to hit you when you were blindfolded?
MR MORRIS: Yes sir.
CHAIRPERSON: You actually didn't see but you conclude that it must be the iron
bar which you saw in the kitchen?
MR MORRIS: Yes, after being blindfolded I then bit the plastic, as I inhaled the
plastic went to the face ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: And you were later able to see that it was an iron bar.
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MR MORRIS: It was taken out because I was suffocating and I saw it was an iron
bar.
CHAIRPERSON: It was an iron bar.
MR TLOUBATLA: When I say hard I don't mean the iron bar, I mean was it
applied hard on your body. In other words - how do I put it to you?
MR MORRIS: Yes it was hard.
MR TLOUBATLA: Did you sustain any injuries as a result of that iron bar?
MR MORRIS: There'a a lot of injuries which I sustained because my legs cannot
function correctly presently, my left arm is also weak because when I tried to block
I sustained injuries. My cheekbones where I have the lower gums are not strong
enough.
MR TLOUBATLA: Right, why I'm specifically asking this particular question is
that it's an iron bar, you say it was applied hard on various parts of your body
including your head, but what surprised me is that you're not even sporting a scar
on you face to show that you received this hard iron bar on the face?
MR MORRIS: Yes I don't have a scar because we don't heal the same. Our
antibodies are not working to heal wounds the same way. You can be surprised
now that I was shot in the head but you cannot point where I was shot. So does it
surprise you?
MR TLOUBATLA: Yes I'm surprised. Alright. In any event we are not for one
moment saying that you were not assaulted but basically all what I want to - I'm
putting this to you that do not try and exaggerate. In other words you are
exaggerating some of the assaults.
MR BRINK: Mr Chairman I'm not sure, with respect, this line of cross
examination is getting anywhere. It's common cause there were assaulted, it's
common cause there were very seriously assaults. Common cause that pliers were
used to the man's testicles now to say that he's exaggerating a seriousness of
assaults is really time consuming and not helping this committee with great
respect. He must stick to the point. Whether this man is lying about torture, he can't
be because it's common cause, whether he's lying about have survived a murder, he
can't be. Let's move on please.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'm thankful to Mr Brink for the - at
least to bring me back to where we are. As I said that the applicants are not
suggesting that you were not assaulted, but let me move on to this other situation.
When you were apprehended by the applicants in Orlando East, did they mention
any specific reason why they are apprehending your group?
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MR MORRIS: The reason that they apprehended us, they said we burned a house
in Orlando West.
MR TLOUBATLA: Alright. During the course of your interrogation, during the
course of your assault and humiliation were you ever asked about your political
activities?
MR MORRIS: They said to us we were causing trouble in the location. We said
what kind of a trouble is that. They then accused us of liking too much school.
MR TLOUBATLA: So what I want to - in fact my question is - let me be more
specific, did they ask you about the UDF, whether you are members of the UDF,
whether you are members of SOSCO, whether you are members of COSAS,
whether you are members of political organisations that were operating in Soweto
at the time?
MR MORRIS: We were told that we were members of the UDF, that is what we
were told, we were not asked.
MR TLOUBATLA: Okay, that's how you understood it, it doesn't matter. And now
the next question that I want to ask you. Did they ask you about whom you are
receiving your instructions, that is on a local level within the UDF or whatever
organisation they are accusing you of belonging to?
MR MORRIS: Sir I don't know what kind of and instruction are we talking about
because we said to them at Orlando East that we never burned the house, we even
said to them inside the house, in the kitchen that we never burned the house. We
even said to them in the bedroom that we have never burned the house, even in that
place where they mentioned Glen's house, (indistinct) we have never burned a
house.
MR TLOUBATLA: But from what transpired, my observation is that they didn't
believe you at all, nothing whatever you said they didn't believe you that is why
they proceeded with what they did. Am I correct?
MR MORRIS: They might have proceeded with the beating or the torturing maybe
because they enjoyed it. We were just helpless as we are helpless now.
CHAIRPERSON: Really the question is, he's saying to you that it seems that
despite what you said that you were not UDF, you did not burn the house, it would
seem that they did not believe you, that is why they eventually shot you.
MR MORRIS: They went on torturing because we said no, all of us we were taken
to two groups (indistinct).
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CHAIRPERSON: But do you think they believe you when you told them look we
didn't burn this house, we are not UDF, do you think they believe you?
MR MORRIS: I don't know sir.
MR TLOUBATLA: You also mentioned that - you know you mentioned specific
people, particularly in the house that this one did this, this one did this. Right,
when you entered that place, how many people were there in that house?
MR MORRIS: As I've said earlier on that when we entered the house there were
about nine to eleven men inside.
MR TLOUBATLA: Quite a number of faces?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Morris don't you think it is possible to confuse faces in
that situation under that type of pressure?
MR MORRIS: You can confuse a face but you cannot confuse a person who has
shot you, you cannot you. And the person who is now torturing you personally,
you can not.
MR TLOUBATLA: Do you recall the face or the name of the person who
personally shot you?
MR MORRIS: I was shot by Hlasa.
MR TLOUBATLA: Right.
MR MORRIS: One shot which went through my knee, he fired to shoot but as I
said earlier on the bullets just went aside and Mphoreng also shot me because the
gun was not working very well, it jammed.
MR TLOUBATLA: Okay. In all you were fired, you mentioned about eight shots
that were fired at you.
MR MORRIS: I was hit by three, missed by seven.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa only fired at you once and shot you through the
knee, is that what you're saying?
CHAIRPERSON: He's not saying that.
MR TLOUBATLA: I'm sorry.
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CHAIRPERSON: He's saying it was Mr Hlasa who shot him in the knee. He
wouldn't know whether among those other seven shots Mr Hlasa also shot, so don't
put as if he said Hlasa shot him only once and never again. He's not saying that.
MR TLOUBATLA: I misunderstood him Mr Chairman, I'm sorry. Right, except
Hlasa who shot at you, any other person that you recall who shot at you?
MR MORRIS: It was Hlasa, Mphoreng and the other person, I don't know who this
person was.
MR TLOUBATLA: This place where you were shot at ... (intervention)
ADV SIGODI: Sorry, just on that aspect. You say you don't know the other person
who shot you?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
ADV SIGODI: Is it because you cannot remember or is it because ... (intervention)
MR MORRIS: It's because he's not here.
ADV SIGODI: But if were to be shown to you, you'd be able to remember him?
MR MORRIS: I think I would.
ADV SIGODI: Because I think it's easier for you to remember Hlasa and
Mphoreng because they are here?
MR MORRIS: No.
ADV SIGODI: Why particularly the two of them?
MR MORRIS: Hlasa was the first one who apprehended us at Orlando East, who
used the firearm. The other two were following behind, the two applicants, the
other two applicants and when we entered the house of maybe the so-called
Jefferson Lingani, I don't know the person whether it' the right name, he was also
the one who was having a gun in his hand forcing us to enter the house so I cannot
forget that person.
ADV SIGODI: That is Hlasa the first applicant. No I'm just asking about the third
person whom you do not seem to be able to remember. Why is it that you cannot
remember him?
MR MORRIS: We were shot by three people and the other person stayed at the
car.
ADV SIGODI: What role did he play?
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MR MORRIS: Who?
ADV SIGODI: The third person.
MR MORRIS: The third person. I have no knowledge of the role that he played.
ADV SIGODI: So is it easier to remember the roles that the two applicant's played
because they are here and then you cannot remember the role that the other person
played because he is not here?
MR MORRIS: No Maam you must remember that when I tried to turn, because I
was facing that way, the first bullet went into the right knee, the second one I tried
to block and then when I tried to move, to move my head because I was feeling
pain, I could not see that person.
ADV SIGODI: Ja but I mean he was also part of the group that was torturing you
throughout the day, wasn't he?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
ADV SIGODI: And for people who had been torturing you maybe you could have
even picked up their names?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
ADV SIGODI: And you don't forget such an incident, don't you? So what I want to
know is who is this third person, why is it not easy for you to remember the third
person if he also took part in torturing you?
MR MORRIS: I don't know his name, I just don't know his name because Hlasa
was the first one who shot the first shot ... (intervention)
ADV SIGODI: If Hlasa was not here, would you have been able to remember his
name?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
ADV SIGODI: Why particularly?
MR MORRIS: Because he was the one who came out of the passage and said:
(indistinct), give me a cigarette and we said we are not smoking.
ADV SIGODI: Okay.
MR MALAN: You're so sure that you would have remembered Mr Hlasa's name,
but in the beginning of your testimony you couldn't remember his name, you
referred to him as Hlese and it was asked?
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MR MORRIS: Yes I said it was Hlasa or Hlese, that's what I said.
CHAIRPERSON: This names, the first applicant we know now is Joseph Hlasa
and the second applicant is Mphoreng. When did you know their names?
MR MORRIS: During the interrogation they would then call each other because
the other name which cropped up during the interrogation it was the one of Kabelo,
I don't know (indistinct) and also Pitso. Even the one of Joseph.
CHAIRPERSON: The one of the people that you can't remember, was it not Pitso,
was it not Kabelo, it wasn't one of those?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Morris do you know who's Pitso?
MR MORRIS: Pitso I think is the second person.
MR TLOUBATLA: Who is that?
MR MORRIS: Who is it, no Pitso I think is Joseph, it's Hlasa, Joseph.
MR TLOUBATLA: Are you certain?
MR MORRIS: Yes, I'm certain.
MR TLOUBATLA: Right. You know basically you are correct by saying Pitso is
Mr Hlasa but I picked the fact that you're just simply guessing on names?
MR MORRIS: No sir.
MR TLOUBATLA: Now because you say, you mentioned that during the
interrogation or during the time when you were making statements the name of
Pitso, the name of Hlasa, the name of whoever came out as often as all that.
(indistinct) you were making a difference between Hlasa and Pitso. Do you
initially it was not the same person?
MR MORRIS: No.
MR TLOUBATLA: It triggered now that after I had asked you the question?
MR MORRIS: No, I don't confuse their names, no.
MR TLOUBATLA: Right, and I'll tell you that you didn't pick up the name of
Hlasa in, when they were taking there, definitely it's not possible because even in
their statement, if you could look at the statements, ... (intervention)
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MR MORRIS: I don't have their statements.
MR TLOUBATLA: Ja, they refer to him as Pitso, that is among his friends he's
known as Pitso and even in the statement they mentioned the name Pitso, so you
couldn't have picked the name Hlasa from their conversation.
MR MORRIS: If my memory is serving me correctly, I think I could have picked
out the wrong name but my memory serves me well.
MR TLOUBATLA: You are just simply referring to him now simply because he's
here in front of you, that's basically what it is. I put it to you that in that situation
where there are so many people, you are under such tremendous torture, definitely
your memory, you vision, everything is impaired so terribly that you are bound to
confuse not only faces but names as well.
MR MORRIS: But there are things that you cannot forget. There are things that
you cannot forget.
MR TLOUBATLA: Just lastly, just to wind up the questioning. This place where
you were shot. How well lit was it?
MR MORRIS: It was dark.
MR TLOUBATLA: Very dark isn't it?
MR MORRIS: Yes.
MR TLOUBATLA: And you are able, in that darkness, to see that Pitso is firing a
shot at me, Mphoreng is also firing a shot at me and how do you do that? How do
you manage that?
MR MORRIS: Yes I said earlier on that I tried to move the face and even the first
shot I was looking at the person but I could not feel whether I was shot or not
because I was told to sleep after being shot, the first shot so when moving I tried to
move and then when I tried to block the bullet with my hand, that is when I can say
I see this person, I can identify this person.
MR TLOUBATLA: The point where they were standing and the point where you
were sitting, how far I mean what's the distance?
MR MORRIS: Is it possible to demonstrate it to you?
CHAIRPERSON: Listen, just a minute. Mr Tloubatla unless you tell us the
importance and the relevance of this question, I'm not going to allow that question
because your client's don't deny that they shot these people, except Mr
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Thandakubona who says he wasn't there and as far as I can recall, this witness so
far hasn't said that Mr Thandakubona was there.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Does it matter whether the witness makes a mistake in saying
that Hlasa shot me, it was Hlasa who shot me in the leg and whereas in fact he was
shot by Mphoreng or some other person or by Sam or somebody. What difference
does it make, they were all on a common purpose, they acted on the base of
common purpose in killing these people, it doesn't matter who shot what.
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I don't think it's really material.
Alright, just one little detail then. At Shawella, at this house where you were taken
to, were all the victims taken out of the cars into the house or were just some of
you taken into the house?
MR MORRIS: When we reached that place I was taken from one boot to another
boot and I tried to move, while I moved from one boot to another boot Edwin
Nkomo was instructed to get into the house.
MR TLOUBATLA: So in other words all what you know is that Vuyani was
instructed to get into the house and you remained in the boot of the car?
MR MORRIS: I was first taken out, Vuyani second and then Sekano the third one.
MR TLOUBATLA: So you don't know of any other person who was taken into the
house, that is among the victims?
MR MORRIS: I was told to face down, not to look on the sides but I could hear
that he was instructed to get into the house.
MR TLOUBATLA: You don't follow what I'm saying. I say except Vuyani, you
don't know of any of the victims that went into the house?
MR MORRIS: Yes I cannot account for that sir.
MR TLOUBATLA: I have no further question sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TLOUBATLA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bink?
MR BRINK: No thank you Mr Chairman.
ADV SIGODI: Just one little aspect. Were any of you wearing UDF T-shirts?
MR MORRIS: No, no Madam no.
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ADV SIGODI: Thank you.
MR MALAN: May I just follow on that. Nobody had a UDF T-shirt on under their
clothes?
MR MORRIS: None.
MR MALAN: And nobody was given as old clothes a UDF T-shirt to put on?
MR MORRIS: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, when this - we were told that you were interrogated
because they wanted to know whether you were members of UDF or whatever and
we were told you were assaulted in the process. You yourself have said to us that
you were assaulted an questioned whether you were UDF members. What I want
to know from you is, in the process of interrogation is there a time when anyone of
you admitted that they were UDF members or SOSCO?
MR MORRIS: No there was no time when one of us said he's a member of the
UDF, there's not time. The answer was always no, no, no.
CHAIRPERSON: Despite this severe assault, none of you under pain, even if it
were to be under pain, admitted that they were UDF?
MR MORRIS: No sir.
CHAIRPERSON: In the process of being assaulted, were they not trying to force
you to admit that you were UDF?
MR MORRIS: They were trying to do that but we said no.
CHAIRPERSON: You, despite the severe pains, despite the pliers for example on
private parts, it was never admitted by either you or anyone of you that you were
UDF members?
MR MORRIS: No sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, let me sum you up. Your evidence is not to us as follows:
This people wanted us to admit that we were UDF, we denied, they assaulted us
very badly with iron bars, pliers and all that and because of that we admitted that
we're UDF because we were under severe pain. That is not your evidence? You
evidence is that pain, notwithstanding, you never admitted that you're UDF
members?
MR MORRIS: Yes sir.
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CHAIRPERSON: Well is it likely though, I mean you were so severely assaulted,
you were even screaming so that the neighbours could hear and they were forcing
you to be a UDF member. Isn't the likelihood that you would, all be it under pain,
you would admit that you're UDF members?
MR MORRIS: No, no.
CHAIRPERSON: Anyway that's not your evidence you've said. Do you want to re-
examine Mr - Mr Tloubatla what's the problem?
MR TLOUBATLA: I wanted to follow up - perhaps I can - there is something I
wanted to follow up based on the questioning now.
CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you converse it yourself during the proceedings?
MR TLOUBATLA: Well it's simply because it is following up on the cross
examination of Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: This issue of assault was conversed tremendously by anyway
let's hear what you want to say.
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TLOUBATLA:
Mr Morris despite the fact that you were separated, you were in different rooms,
are you saying that none of the other victims admitted that he was a member of
UDF?
MR MORRIS: No one admitted.
MR TLOUBATLA: How can you say that if you were not in the same room?
MR MORRIS: When they took turns the other people then said your friends are
saying you are UDF members, what do you say and then we would say no and then
the interrogation goes on again and again.
MR TLOUBATLA: (indistinct)
NO FURTHER QUESTION BY MR TLOUBATLA
MR MALAN: Mr Morris Mr Ameen in his cross examination of some of the
applicants put it to them that there was no evidence of the house having been
bombed when you get there. You confirmed this and you refer to the painting but
he also put it to the applicants that your version is that the house indeed was
bombed subsequent or at some later stage this house was bombed. Who told him
that, did you know that Jeff's house was bombed later?
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MR MORRIS: That is what we heard when I was in hospital but I have no
knowledge of that.
MR MALAN: One of the Exhibits, I think Exhibit H, that Mr Tloubatla held out to
you, the Star of the 26th of October 1986, he read there and he talked about the
reprisals and that the house the following night was bombed. Is your recollection
that that refers to that following night, the bombing?
MR MORRIS: No I don't know sir.
MR MALAN: You don't know when?
MR MORRIS: Yes, it was when I was admitted at hospital, I think it was on Friday
(indistinct) Sekano, I then met my father and then on Saturday he came back with
my mother and also on Sunday even the whole week.
MR MALAN: This question of the bombing and which house it is, I just want to
ask you a question or two about that still. The house of Jeff, I remember correctly
evidence was given that that was an ordinary four roomed house?
MR MORRIS: Yes sir.
MR MALAN: It had only two bedrooms or would it have had a third bedroom?
MR MORRIS: I don't know because the houses in Orlando West are not the same.
We have three roomed house, we have five roomed houses.
MR MALAN: I think Mr Tloubatla if you can assist me in memory I think the
evidence was that it was a four roomed house?
MR TLOUBATLA: Yes with a - the toilet is inside the house if I'm ...
MR MALAN: My question really relates to the two bedrooms. You say that the
bedroom within which you were assaulted or tortured, there was no sign of a
burning or a bombing?
MR MORRIS: No sir, no.
MR MALAN: And you have no knowledge of the second bedroom of what that
looked like?
MR MORRIS: No.
MR MALAN: You were never into the second bedroom?
MR MORRIS: No.
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MR MALAN: And in the kitchen there was no sign of a bombing?
MR MORRIS: No.
MR MALAN: You didn't see glass anywhere over the place?
MR MORRIS: No, no sir.
MR MALAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen?
MR AMEEN: No, no questions.
CHAIRPERSON: It may be a convenient stage to adjourn and then maybe start at
quarter to two. Mr Ameen?
MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman I've consulted with my client, the second victim will
not be testifying this afternoon. I do not think that his testimony, if he does testify,
will take the matter any further and that is it from our side.
CHAIRPERSON: Well then that would conclude these proceedings and do you
propose to submit a written argument?
MR AMEEN: Yes Mr Chairman, I discussed that with my colleague and I suggest
that we be allowed to do that within a period of whatever is a reasonable time.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla?
MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I confirm everything that has been
said by my learned friend and in as far as the submissions are concerned, I'm also
confirming that.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink do you prefer to make oral submissions because you
can do now if you want to quickly make oral submissions?
MR BRINK: No Mr Chairman I'm not prepared at this stage to make oral
submissions.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright.
MR BRINK: In so far as the time is concerned, today is the 10th of June, possibly
if submissions could be lodged with the Amnesty Committee by not later than say
Friday the 10th of July, would that be enough time for you.
MR AMEEN: That suits me.
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MR TLOUBATLA: That will be sufficient time.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla when do you think you can deliver you written
argument?
MR TLOUBATLA: Probably within 2 weeks or so, I will be able to do that.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you just give us the dates there because we (indistinct) a
date.
MR BRINK: 2 Weeks would be the 24th of June, but then allowing for postal
delays - they can fax them.
CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute. What date are we getting there Mr Brink?
MR BRINK: 2 Weeks from today will be the 24th of June, Wednesday the 24th.
CHAIRPERSON: And what's the next Monday?
MR BRINK: The next Monday is the 29th?
CHAIRPERSON: Of June?
MR BRINK: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla would you see to it that we receive your written
argument by the 29th?
MR TLOUBATLA: Ja, I think it is possible. (indistinct) that I can't produce, if I'm
sending it out on the 24th and whether it will be there by the 29th and in fact I don't
know how or where we're going to send it?
MR BRINK: If the written submissions could be sent, as I indicated to you earlier,
to the Executive Secretary, Amnesty Committee, 106 Adderly Street, Cape Town.
MR TLOUBATLA: That will be possible.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes we note the 26th of June Mr Tloubatla and will you then,
before you ... (intervention)
MR BRINK: 29th.
CHAIRPERSON: 29th I'm sorry. Before you, or at least at the same time as you
will be sending them to us, will you please give a copy to Mr Ameen so that he can
have a week to finalise his own (indistinct) he may wish to say something about
your written argument? So Mr Ameen you (indistinct) the following week then?
That will be the first Monday of July.
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MR BRINK: That will be the 6th of July.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink please do take the telephone numbers and particulars
of both Mr Ameen and Mr Tloubatla, very often we have difficulties later in
contacting the attorneys concerned.
MR BRINK: I've got that Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Well we will reserve judgement then in this case until we
receive written argument. And before we formally adjourn we would like to thank
everybody who was involved in putting up these proceedings and perhaps also in
particular we appreciate the co-operation we received from the public. Cases of
this nature are very difficult, they bring back old memories and open wounds
which have temporarily healed and sometimes you understand why people from
the audience or the victims sometimes they behave in the way that they've been
doing but it needs to be mentioned that we appreciate their co-operation, they've
been very co-operative and we appreciate that. Thank you very much. We will now
adjourn and resume as soon as possible to start with the next matter.
MR BRINK: Yes, Mr Chairman I understand that counsel for some of the
applicants just wish to have a word with you in chambers before we proceed with
the next application.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes alright.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS