transcript of statements - sylvania

· · · · · · · PUBLIC HEARING

· · · · · IN RE:· PALMETTO PIPELINE

· · · · · TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

· · · · · · · ·March 10, 2015

· · · · · · · · · 5:05 p.m.

· · · · · · Screven County Library

· · · · ·106 South Community Drive

· · · · · · · Sylvania, Georgia

· · · Deborah K. Lingonis, RPR, CCR 2883.

·1· ·APPEARANCES:

·2· ·On behalf of Kinder Morgan:

·3· · · · · · ·JONATHON CHALLY, ESQ.

·4· · · · · · ·ANDREW MUTTER, ESQ.

·5· · · · · · ·King & Spalding

·6· · · · · · ·1180 Peachtree Street, N.E.

·7· · · · · · ·Atlanta, Georgia 30309

·8· · · · · · ·404.572.4705

·9· · · · · · ·[email protected]

10· ·On behalf of Kinder Morgan:

11· · · · · · ·ALLEN FORE

12· · · · · · ·Vice President, Public Affairs

13· · · · · · ·Kinder Morgan

14· · · · · · ·3250 Lacey Road, Suite 700

15· · · · · · ·Downers Grove, Illinois 60515

16· · · · · · ·630.725.3044

17· · · · · · ·[email protected]

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19· · · · · · ·BRIAN S. WILLIAMS, P.E.

20· · · · · · ·Director - Engineering

21· · · · · · ·Kinder Morgan

22· · · · · · ·1000 Windward Concourse, Suite 450

23· · · · · · ·Alpharetta, Georgia 30005

24· · · · · · ·770.751.4248


·1· · · · · · ·SWAIN M. GUZZARDI

·2· · · · · · ·Senior Agent II - Land & ROW

·3· · · · · · ·Kinder Morgan

·4· · · · · · ·1000 Windward Concourse, Suite 450

·5· · · · · · ·Alpharetta, Georgia 30005

·6· · · · · · ·770.751.4248

·7· · · · · · ·[email protected]

·8· ·On behalf of Georgia Department of Transportation:

·9· · · · · · ·Michael J. Bolden

10· · · · · · ·State Utilities Engineer

11· · · · · · ·Georgia Department of Transportation

12· · · · · · ·600 West Peachtree Street, N.W.

13· · · · · · ·10th Floor

14· · · · · · ·Atlanta, Georgia 30308

15· · · · · · ·404.631.1354


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·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·-· - -

·2· · · · · · ·(Pursuant to OCGA 15-14-37 (a) and (b), a

·3· ·written disclosure statement was submitted by the court

·4· ·reporter to all counsel present at the deposition and

·5· ·is attached hereto.)

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·1· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· Let's go ahead and get started.

·2· ·Thank you all for coming this evening.· My name is Jon

·3· ·Chally.· I'm with King and Spalding, and with me are

·4· ·Allen Fore and Brian Williams of Kinder Morgan.· We are

·5· ·here today to talk to you about the Palmetto Pipeline

·6· ·Project.

·7· · · · · · Palmetto Products Pipeline has filed an

·8· ·application with the Department of Transportation, an

·9· ·application for public convenience and necessity that

10· ·relates to this particular project.· We're here at the

11· ·DOT's request to hold, provide an opportunity for

12· ·public comment.

13· · · · · · It's a public hearing, as I said, conducted at

14· ·the DOT's request to provide you an opportunity to give

15· ·us comment on this particular project.· You can give

16· ·comment in multiple ways.· We have a court reporter

17· ·here who will be able to take oral comments from you

18· ·throughout the evening.

19· · · · · · We will have a short presentation.· Mr. Fore

20· ·and Mr. Williams will give you a short presentation on

21· ·the project and then the court reporter will sort of

22· ·open it up for discussion where if you have questions,

23· ·you can come up, state your name and your address so

24· ·that we have that for the record and then state your

25· ·comment related to the project.

·1· · · · · · In addition to this public comment meeting,

·2· ·you can provide written comments related to this

·3· ·particular project.· You can send that comment to me.

·4· ·My name and address is in the notice that informed you

·5· ·that we were having a meeting today.· You can also send

·6· ·that written comment to the Department of

·7· ·Transportation who will consider that.

·8· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· And to whom?

·9· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· Mike Bolden.

10· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· B-o-l-t-o-n?

11· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· B-o-l-d-e-n.

12· · · · · · Okay.· Now, as I said, what we're going to

13· ·do -- Well, let me back up.· We filed our publication,

14· ·or excuse me, our application for public convenience

15· ·and necessity.· The DOT is required to act on that

16· ·application within 90 days.

17· · · · · · So I would ask to the extent that you all have

18· ·comment related to the project you provide that comment

19· ·quickly.· We'll take it today, as we said, and if you

20· ·have written comment, please try to get that in to us

21· ·as quickly as you can.· Okay.

22· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· 90 days from what date?

23· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· 90 days from the date that the

24· ·notice of the application was published.

25· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· And when was that?

·1· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· February 26th.· Do your best

·2· ·to -- The notices were published in various different

·3· ·newspapers so the actual publication date varies. I

·4· ·would encourage you to submit a written comment within

·5· ·90 days of February 13th.

·6· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· 13th?

·7· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· That is when the application was

·8· ·filed and would give you the most comfort that the time

·9· ·period will not lapse.· Okay?

10· · · · · · So with that said, what we're going to do here

11· ·today is Mr. Fore and Mr. Williams are going to give a

12· ·short presentation on the project and then we'll open

13· ·up the floor for comment.· Okay?· Go ahead.

14· · · · · · MR. FORE:· All right.· Thanks, Jon.

15· · · · · · Allen Fore, vice president of Kinder Morgan,

16· ·and Brian Williams, our project director for the

17· ·Palmetto Pipeline Project and also Director of

18· ·Engineering.

19· · · · · · Thanks for coming out tonight.· We appreciate

20· ·your interest in our project.· And as Jon said, what we

21· ·want to do tonight is give you an overview of our

22· ·project, what our proposed schedule is, the purpose of

23· ·our project and to respond to your questions.

24· · · · · · We've done -- This is our third public meeting

25· ·similar to this that we've done in Georgia.· We've got

·1· ·two more yet this week.· And it really begins a

·2· ·discussion and dialogue with local communities

·3· ·throughout the three states that are part of our

·4· ·proposed project.

·5· · · · · · I will say at the outset too to clear the

·6· ·issue or at least address the issue of the battlefield

·7· ·because I know that's an important issue, we will be

·8· ·discussing tonight, we met with the mayor earlier

·9· ·today, and we are going to route around the

10· ·battlefield.

11· · · · · · (Audience clapping.)

12· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· We've identified an alternative

13· ·and we plan to do that.· We'll discuss that a little

14· ·bit more tonight.· But you have the commitment from the

15· ·company tonight that we made with the mayor earlier

16· ·today that we will be proposing an alternative around

17· ·the battlefield.

18· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· Will we get a written

19· ·commitment?

20· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· If you'd like.

21· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· Yes.

22· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· We certainly can.· We'll talk

23· ·about that in just a bit.· Okay?

24· · · · · · So let's start off with what our company is

25· ·and what we do and what we're proposing to do here in

·1· ·Georgia.

·2· · · · · · We are a pipeline transportation company, so

·3· ·we transport product from one place to another.· We

·4· ·have about 80,000 miles of pipe across the United

·5· ·States where we transport product.

·6· · · · · · We're the largest pipeline infrastructure

·7· ·company in North America transporting refined products

·8· ·such as what we're talking about tonight, gasoline and

·9· ·diesel.· We also transport natural gas and CO2 and

10· ·ethanol and other products.· So transportation.

11· · · · · · For the most part we don't own or sell the

12· ·gas.· We just transport it from one place to another on

13· ·behalf of customers.· What we're talking about tonight

14· ·is an expansion of our Plantation pipeline which is

15· ·pictured here.

16· · · · · · And the Plantation system has been in

17· ·existence for many years and is one of the major

18· ·providers of refined products to the southeastern

19· ·United States.· You can see here with the map beginning

20· ·in Louisiana and terminating up in the Washington, D.C.

21· ·area.

22· · · · · · This is a major provider currently.· This is

23· ·currently in service and has been delivering gasoline,

24· ·diesel and other products to the southeast and eastern

25· ·United States including the State of Georgia.· So this

·1· ·is going to be, what we're proposing, an extension of

·2· ·this system to bring some of the same products from the

·3· ·Plantation pipeline system into the State of Georgia,

·4· ·South Carolina and Florida.

·5· · · · · · And this is a little closer look at what we're

·6· ·proposing.· So on this picture the black line is the

·7· ·red line.· So the new piece of the project, the new

·8· ·build on project would be here (indicating), beginning

·9· ·in Belton, South Carolina, and terminating in

10· ·Jacksonville, Florida, and obviously coming through

11· ·locally here.

12· · · · · · We currently operate about 3,000 miles of pipe

13· ·in Georgia, and that's important because we're often

14· ·asked about our projects.· What is this?· What is it

15· ·going to look like, and what can we expect from your

16· ·company?· Well, I think a good example of that is our

17· ·existing infrastructure in the state and the 3,000

18· ·miles of pipe that we have.

19· · · · · · So we're transporting a lot of product through

20· ·85 counties in Georgia, and again an expansion of that

21· ·existing footprint is what this project is about.

22· ·Locally here in the county, too, we also have our

23· ·Southern Natural Gas system that's a natural gas line

24· ·and our Elba Express which is a new natural gas line as

25· ·well.

·1· · · · · · So those are two projects that already are in

·2· ·service or proposed to be in service.· It gives you an

·3· ·idea of what construction operation of pipelines look

·4· ·like and also the tax revenue that we're currently

·5· ·paying the taxing bodies here locally in the county.

·6· · · · · · Pipeline construction is a regulated process.

·7· ·So we're in the early stages.· Jon mentioned about the

·8· ·DOT process.· That's one part of it.· There are also

·9· ·several other federal and state agencies that are part

10· ·of the oversight process.

11· · · · · · So as we're talking here today we're just

12· ·beginning that permitting process.· So we're consulting

13· ·with the Army Corps of Engineers, U.S. Fish and

14· ·Wildlife Service, the applicable state agencies in

15· ·Georgia, South Carolina and Florida, and we'll need to

16· ·secure all of the permits applicable to our pipeline

17· ·before we can begin construction and ultimately go into

18· ·service.

19· · · · · · So understand that we still are today in the

20· ·early stages.· We've been talking about this project or

21· ·an iteration of it for several years, but we are just

22· ·in the beginnings of the permitting process.

23· · · · · · And part of that process is what we're doing

24· ·here tonight and we're doing in other parts of Georgia

25· ·is to talk about our project and get local input and

·1· ·that's what we want to do here tonight.

·2· · · · · · Brian, I'll turn it over to you to begin the

·3· ·overview of the project.

·4· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· Sure, thanks.· Again, my name

·5· ·is Brian Williams, project director for this project

·6· ·and an engineering director with Kinder Morgan.

·7· · · · · · The project that we're looking at, the

·8· ·modifications to the Plantation pipeline system and the

·9· ·construction of the Palmetto system is about a billion

10· ·dollar project.· And you can see on the Plantation map,

11· ·it's spread all across the southeastern U.S.

12· · · · · · The biggest part of that 1 billion dollars

13· ·will be spent on new construction.· The project is

14· ·about a 360 mile new built pipeline originating in

15· ·Belton, South Carolina, near Anderson, South Carolina,

16· ·near Clinton.

17· · · · · · Everybody's been to Belton?· Has anybody been

18· ·to Belton?· Okay.· There's one.· There is an existing

19· ·terminal community, pipeline terminal community in

20· ·Belton that is serviced by two pipelines that runs

21· ·through the southeastern U.S.· That's the Colonial

22· ·pipeline system and the Plantation system.

23· · · · · · Kinder Morgan operates the Plantation system

24· ·and that will be the source for this new 360-mile

25· ·pipeline.· There will be a new receipt facility off of

·1· ·that Plantation system built at Belton, which will be a

·2· ·tank farm and a pump station in that existing terminal

·3· ·community on a site where a former terminal has been

·4· ·dismantled.

·5· · · · · · Let's see, Palmetto Allen mentioned to you

·6· ·that this project has been kind of in the works or been

·7· ·talked about for a few years now.· One of the big

·8· ·pieces the way Kinder Morgan operates is we don't

·9· ·believe in the build it and they will come philosophy.

10· ·We only build a project if we have commercial

11· ·commitments to back it up.

12· · · · · · And in this case we held what's called an open

13· ·season where we advertised to people who ship petroleum

14· ·products that we're considering this idea and we asked

15· ·those people to sign up or subscribe to support the

16· ·pipeline.· That was conducted earlier.· That was

17· ·conducted in 2014 and that concluded around late

18· ·October, and we did receive enough commercial interest

19· ·and commitment to proceed with the project.

20· · · · · · The project is designed to handle up to

21· ·167,000 barrels a day.· We anticipate that the initial

22· ·capacity when we start running the pipeline would be

23· ·about 150,000 barrels a day, somewhere in that range.

24· ·So there's a little bit of room for growth in it.

25· · · · · · And I keep talking about the project and the

·1· ·pipe.· Let's go through a few basics for just a moment.

·2· ·What we're talking about installing is a pipeline that

·3· ·through the State of Georgia would be 16 inch in

·4· ·diameter.· It's made out of high strength steel.· It is

·5· ·coated, protected from corrosion and it's buried.

·6· · · · · · The federal DOT under their pipeline of

·7· ·hazardous materials safety administration requires

·8· ·pipes to be buried at least 30 inches.· Our typical

·9· ·burial depth is four feet, and the reason for that is

10· ·it permits farming activities to still continue on top

11· ·of it with less encumbrance.

12· · · · · · One of the things we do with all our of pipes

13· ·as I mentioned is that they're coated.· They're coated

14· ·with a type of epoxy that called fusion bonded, a very

15· ·strong durable material.

16· · · · · · And in addition to that we install an

17· ·electronic cathodic protection system that protects it

18· ·from corrosion where we actually drive electrons to the

19· ·pipe instead of having them come away from the pipe

20· ·which is like when rust hits it.

21· · · · · · Let's see, we mentioned the additional

22· ·facilities up at Belton.· They'll be the takeoff

23· ·facility and terminal.· There will be three additional

24· ·pump stations spread out along the route there roughly

25· ·at 90-mile station spacings.

·1· · · · · · We're still working through and finalizing the

·2· ·hydraulic calculations to site those stations.· And a

·3· ·little bit about it, those stations typically are size

·4· ·wise they're on about a two to five-acre parcel

·5· ·usually.

·6· · · · · · And Kinder Morgan's philosophy is when it's

·7· ·time to build something like that, we want to buy the

·8· ·property in fee.· We want to own that property rather

·9· ·than encumber somebody with a long-term easement on

10· ·that.

11· · · · · · The pipeline easement itself is something that

12· ·we pay for from a landowner.· The landowner continues

13· ·to own that land and grants an easement.· And the

14· ·easement width that we are proposing for this project

15· ·is a 50-foot permanent easement.

16· · · · · · One of the things we have looked at in siting

17· ·this project is we want to minimize impact along the

18· ·route.· And from our first layout of the project what

19· ·we did was site it along existing corridors, existing

20· ·utility corridors.

21· · · · · · And let's see if we can get back to another

22· ·map.· Originating at Belton the pipeline would be, the

23· ·new pipeline would be alongside an existing pipeline

24· ·corridor that runs from Belton to Augusta.· Then south

25· ·of Augusta along through here is mostly existing power

·1· ·line corridors.· That's mostly along Georgia Power.

·2· · · · · · There's a little bit alongside a railroad, and

·3· ·then from about Savannah to the west side of

·4· ·Jacksonville, most of that is along an existing

·5· ·pipeline corridor called the Cypress natural gas

·6· ·pipeline, and that's a pipeline that's owned and

·7· ·operated by Kinder Morgan.

·8· · · · · · And what we're talking about doing is abutting

·9· ·this new easement that we would acquire right alongside

10· ·those existing easements to minimize impact to

11· ·landowners.· Let's see, this one shows again a little

12· ·more detail on the route.

13· · · · · · Let me back up a second and talk about

14· ·schedule for a moment.· Allen mentioned that we are in

15· ·the midst of having some meetings in the State of

16· ·Georgia that's ongoing now.

17· · · · · · On route selection, we have a preliminary

18· ·route identified that's what depicted on these

19· ·drawings.· We also have some more detailed aerial

20· ·photos.· If somebody would like to see that kind of

21· ·thing after the meeting breaks up, those will be

22· ·available and you can come visit with us.

23· · · · · · So we select this preliminary route and what

24· ·we have going on right now is we are obtaining

25· ·permission from landowners to have survey crews go out

·1· ·and stake along that preliminary route.

·2· · · · · · One of the things that goes on with this

·3· ·initial survey piece is after the survey crews go out

·4· ·and set the stakes for the proposed route, we have some

·5· ·other surveys that will be conducted along the route.

·6· ·And those are wetland surveys, biological surveys for

·7· ·endangered species and cultural surveys and that will

·8· ·be all along the route.

·9· · · · · · And that's information we need to gather, and

10· ·that influences routing decisions.· Another thing is

11· ·just how property owners are in dealing with.· If there

12· ·are huge objections there, that can be a cause for

13· ·reroute or sometimes there are obstructions that we

14· ·don't see in the preliminary data.

15· · · · · · You know, we start off with like a Google

16· ·Earth map or aerial photos and you work from that, and

17· ·sometimes you find that things are changed in recent

18· ·times.· So we're going through the exercise now of

19· ·nailing down that route.· And we're targeting to start

20· ·construction about a year from now, spring of 2016 and

21· ·having the pipeline in operation by July of 2017.

22· · · · · · All right.· And here's the route through the

23· ·county as it was originally laid out.· And as Allen

24· ·mentioned earlier, we will be altering the route to

25· ·avoid the battlefield.· We've identified a preliminary

·1· ·alternative, but we really need to pursue that a bit

·2· ·before making that one publicly available.· But we are

·3· ·committing to all of you folks that we will be routing

·4· ·around the battlefield.

·5· · · · · · And this slide kind of depicts what pipeline

·6· ·construction is like.· We thought it might be helpful

·7· ·for people to have an idea of what goes on in the

·8· ·process.· And it starts off with survey crews and then

·9· ·clearing goes underway and then there's grading effort.

10· · · · · · And one of the things we do is we move the

11· ·topsoil off of the area that's going to be trenched

12· ·where the pipe will be laid in there because we want to

13· ·preserve that topsoil and bring it back across the

14· ·restored right-of-way proceeding.

15· · · · · · And then a trench is cut, and you see guys

16· ·putting in backfill material.· Pipe is -- they call it

17· ·stringing.· I don't know why.· It's just an old

18· ·pipeline term.· They lay it out in a long string I

19· ·guess.· And there's other things that you'll hear us

20· ·talk about.

21· · · · · · I'm sorry, I'll digress for a minute.· If you

22· ·ever hear people talk pipeline language, you might

23· ·thing they're very strange and I certainly did. I

24· ·hired on in this business in the early '80s, and I

25· ·thought it was really odd when they talked about a

·1· ·piece of pipe.· They didn't call it a piece of pipe.

·2· ·Does anyone know what that's called?

·3· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· Joint.

·4· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· Yes, a joint.· Geez, this is

·5· ·the '80s.· We just finished the '70s.· That's not what

·6· ·joint meant.· And then I found out that after they weld

·7· ·the pipe together and they coat it where those weld

·8· ·joints are, they coat it with dope.

·9· · · · · · Again, early '80s, just finished the '70s. I

10· ·thought I was going to have to learn a whole new --

11· ·Well, I did learn a whole new lexicon and they get the

12· ·dope out of the dope pot.· Sorry, that's my digression

13· ·for tonight.· I promise I'll be the only one.

14· · · · · · All right.· So the pipe is strung out along

15· ·the right-of-way, it's welded together, the joints are

16· ·coated, the pipe is lowered in, and then after it is

17· ·lowered in, the backfill goes in the ditch.· And in

18· ·rocky areas, they actually pull the rocks out of the

19· ·backfill before filling back over the line, and then

20· ·the topsoil is spread back over the line.

21· · · · · · And then seeding, seeding is applied according

22· ·to whatever the local requirements are, and that varies

23· ·by parts of the country that we're here in.· And we

24· ·always work with the local folks to help us on that.

25· ·So that's kind of a quick overview.· That's kind of

·1· ·what pipeline right-of-ways look like.

·2· · · · · · And you guys know driving around have probably

·3· ·seen these.· They look a lot like power line

·4· ·right-of-ways.· And I mentioned we have some pump

·5· ·stations, again two to five acres.· This is an existing

·6· ·pump station.· There's not a whole lot to them.

·7· · · · · · There's a little bit of valving and such where

·8· ·the pipe comes out of the ground.· There is usually a

·9· ·substation because the pumps are electrically driven,

10· ·an electrical building, and sometimes you'll have a

11· ·small maintenance building there.· And that's about it.

12· · · · · · All right.· Allen.

13· · · · · · MR. FORE:· Thanks, Brian.· So we anticipate on

14· ·this project a significant amount of construction jobs

15· ·related to it.· These will be jobs that will be at a

16· ·peak about 1200 construction workers throughout the

17· ·state.

18· · · · · · We also expect about 28 permanent jobs, so

19· ·these will be adding to our existing employee base in

20· ·the State of Georgia.· We also expect to increase our

21· ·property tax ad valorem tax payments to the state by

22· ·about 5 million dollars a year.

23· · · · · · The portion going to locally here in the

24· ·county and the local taxing bodies will be based on the

25· ·facilities miles of pipe that we have here in the

·1· ·county.· So part of that 4.9 million will be coming

·2· ·here as well, and this is also expanding general

·3· ·availability of refined products to the region which is

·4· ·important for overall energy infrastructure and energy

·5· ·security.

·6· · · · · · So there will be short-term benefits from a

·7· ·construction perspective, long-term benefits from

·8· ·supply and taxes and permanent jobs.· We have operated

·9· ·in Georgia for a long time.· Brian is headquartered in

10· ·Alpharetta which is our headquarters for the region,

11· ·and we are very proud of our commitment to communities

12· ·along our pipeline system.

13· · · · · · And I always say at public meetings like this

14· ·across the country that it's not about what we say

15· ·tonight.· It's about what you say when we're done with

16· ·this project.

17· · · · · · And the community leaders and the elected

18· ·officials and others I think on balance if you talk to

19· ·them would say that Kinder Morgan, we do what we say

20· ·we're going to do, we operate our systems in a safe and

21· ·efficient manner, and we're good corporate citizens.

22· ·And that's right now in Georgia and the communities

23· ·that we operate in.

24· · · · · · We also look forward to partnering with the

25· ·communities, investing in your communities, and we want

·1· ·to talk to the mayor more about that which means

·2· ·locally in addition to the tax revenues we're paying,

·3· ·these are examples of real time things we've done

·4· ·across the country, Savannah, Georgia, Mississippi and

·5· ·other states partnering with emergency responders in

·6· ·towns in a way that is beneficial to the community.· So

·7· ·we're going to be consulting with your community

·8· ·leaders on that.

·9· · · · · · So with that, Jon, that's our general project

10· ·overview.· As I said, this is the beginning of a public

11· ·dialogue.· We expect in addition to the public meetings

12· ·we're going to be having in the next couple of weeks to

13· ·have additional conversations, both public and private,

14· ·throughout the region.

15· · · · · · Also, all the landowners and I'm sure there

16· ·are several here tonight are going to receive

17· ·individual consultations and contacts with our land

18· ·agents to talk about the specifics of their property.

19· ·We'll also offer briefings to city and other officials,

20· ·county officials that want to know more about our

21· ·project as they see fit.· So we're committed to

22· ·learning and understanding.

23· · · · · · As Brian said, when we initially introduced

24· ·these projects, we talk about two major pieces.· One is

25· ·the commercial piece.· We've got to have certainty that

·1· ·customers, those who use this product and deliver it

·2· ·ultimately to homes and businesses need it and they're

·3· ·willing to sign up for long-term commitments that the

·4· ·moment this pipe goes in service they're going to use

·5· ·it.· So we had to be sure about that and we have

·6· ·received assurety on that.

·7· · · · · · The second is we have to be certain from a

·8· ·regulatory perspective.· So we have to design a product

·9· ·that the regulators can permit.· And while we think

10· ·we've done that right now, we know we can make it

11· ·better and we're going to be working over the next year

12· ·as we file for our permits and go through the

13· ·permitting process to do that.

14· · · · · · So it's at the federal, state and local level

15· ·learning more like we have here locally to make route

16· ·adjustments, to modify our project in small and maybe

17· ·in some cases larger ways to make the project the least

18· ·impactful as possible.

19· · · · · · We understand that these projects are

20· ·impactful, but we want to minimize those impacts as

21· ·much as possible and that's through public dialogue and

22· ·working with all of you.· So we look forward to that

23· ·and look forward to your questions.

24· · · · · · Jon.

25· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· Okay.· So what we will do is

·1· ·provide an opportunity for you all to make comments.

·2· ·As I said, we have a court reporter.· If you want to

·3· ·make a comment, we would ask that you come up and state

·4· ·your name and address to the court reporter and then

·5· ·turn around and make your comment to everyone in the

·6· ·room so that they can hear it.

·7· · · · · · I'd also add that we will be around,

·8· ·particularly Allen and Brian who you will more likely

·9· ·want to talk to, they will be around after the meeting

10· ·to answer specific questions that you may have.· You're

11· ·welcome to try to ask that question in the public

12· ·forum, but it may be easier to reserve that question

13· ·until you can talk directly to Allen or Brian.· Okay?

14· · · · · · So with that I'll open it up.· Raise your

15· ·hand.· I'm happy to -- This gentleman right here if you

16· ·come on up.

17· · · · · · MR. FITZNER:· My name is John Fitzner,

18· ·F-i-t-z-n-e-r, .· My

19· ·question is to you gentlemen, Kinder Morgan has --

20· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· I'm sorry, sir.· Can you please

21· ·state it so everybody can hear it.

22· · · · · · MR. FITZNER:· Okay.· Kinder Morgan has had 180

23· ·spills this -- had fires and explosions and fatalities

24· ·in 24 states from 2003 to 2014.· What is the guarantee

25· ·that this new pipeline -- You've already got one on the

·1· ·west of town.

·2· · · · · · Why don't you run it down the pipeline you've

·3· ·already got instead of impacting all this sensitive

·4· ·area through five major rivers and on the coast of

·5· ·Georgia?· That doesn't make any sense to me since

·6· ·you've already got an easement on the west side of

·7· ·town.· Why don't you use that?

·8· · · · · · And what are you going to do to protect us? I

·9· ·mean you've got all these spills and all these damages

10· ·you've had since 2014 to 2003.· I mean what's the

11· ·guarantee that something isn't going to happen?· You've

12· ·had it done in 24 states already.

13· · · · · · MR. FORE:· Okay.· I'll start with the general

14· ·comment about safety and statistics and information

15· ·that you all can access on your own to find out our

16· ·safety record and other companies.

17· · · · · · First, you can go to our own website at Kinder

18· ·Morgan dot com and we publish our safety record.· We're

19· ·the only energy company that actually does that.· So we

20· ·self-publish our safety record, and I know you'll find

21· ·that it is much the best in the industry.· It doesn't

22· ·say we're perfect and we don't have incidents, but it's

23· ·out there for everyone to read.

24· · · · · · The second is the U.S. Department of

25· ·Transportation, Office of Pipeline Safety, Pipeline

·1· ·Hazardous Material Safety Administration, it's called

·2· ·PHMSA, that is a lot to say, but the U.S. Department of

·3· ·Transportation, they regulate -- not the state, the

·4· ·federal government regulates the operations of

·5· ·pipelines.

·6· · · · · · They also publish on their pipeline reportable

·7· ·incidents from companies.· So you can go to that

·8· ·website and take a look at our company and other

·9· ·pipeline companies and how the industry reports.

10· ·There's no question that pipelines are the safest way

11· ·to transport energy, the safest way to transport.

12· · · · · · It doesn't mean that there isn't the

13· ·possibility of some issue, but if you look at companies

14· ·on balance and their overall record and what they do to

15· ·invest in a quality product and the folks who build

16· ·them like Brian, I think you'll see that Kinder Morgan

17· ·is the leader in the industry to make sure our

18· ·pipelines are safe.

19· · · · · · But, Brian, why don't you walk through the

20· ·specifics of what we do.

21· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· Sure.· Let's talk about that.

22· ·With the pipeline that we're talking about, we are

23· ·going to exceed the PHMSA requirements.· I talked to

24· ·you about burial depth, going deeper.

25· · · · · · One of the major cause of pipeline releases

·1· ·outside of facilities is from third-party damage.

·2· ·Going deeper helps that and Kinder Morgan has been a

·3· ·very active proponent and leader in an organization

·4· ·called the Common Ground Alliance.

·5· · · · · · Many of you may have heard of that.· You've

·6· ·seen the big Call 811 signs around town I'm sure, and

·7· ·that's a huge case that's made an impact so far in the

·8· ·industry.· It's been a very positive thing and we

·9· ·encourage that.

10· · · · · · I'd also add a couple of other places that I

11· ·recommend you go to look at for public information

12· ·about pipelines.· There's an industry group called the

13· ·Association of Oil Pipelines.· They put out a website

14· ·that's called Pipeline 101, great general information

15· ·about pipelines and it has some links to other

16· ·statistics you can get.

17· · · · · · One other thing is Kinder Morgan is committed

18· ·to doing things well when we install these lines.· At

19· ·our aboveground facilities, you saw that pump station

20· ·there, one of the things we do is we install concrete

21· ·pads with curbs around them now, containment, in places

22· ·where there might be a potential leak in the future

23· ·because we don't want to put anything on clean ground.

24· ·It's not good for you guys.· It's not good for us.

25· ·Okay?· So we do things like that.

·1· · · · · · We are making a commitment on this pipeline.

·2· ·Every pipeline has what's called block valves spaced

·3· ·periodically along the line.· And the purpose of those

·4· ·valves is if you need to stop the flow in a line for

·5· ·maintenance work, they can be closed and also, heaven

·6· ·forbid if there's an emergency, those valves can be

·7· ·closed to block the flow.

·8· · · · · · PHMSA does not require that those valves be

·9· ·remotely controlled.· Kinder Morgan is making the

10· ·commitment that those valves will be remotely

11· ·controlled by operators at our control center outside

12· ·of Atlanta and that is run 24/7.

13· · · · · · That's a commitment that we began making a

14· ·couple of years ago on some other projects because we

15· ·believe very strongly in being a proactive company.

16· ·That's a couple of the highlights.

17· · · · · · Another thing that we do is we install a

18· ·computer program that's called computational pipeline

19· ·measurement.· And it's a math program that looks at the

20· ·pressures along the pipeline and the meter flow rates

21· ·and let's you know, it alerts if it thinks you might

22· ·have a leak to investigate.

23· · · · · · And our operators are trained that when they

24· ·get that alarm, they shut down the line and they don't

25· ·restart until they know absolutely certain what they're

·1· ·dealing with.· So that's some of the things that go on.

·2· ·It's pretty much across the industry Kinder Morgan has

·3· ·stepped out beyond that with those containment ideas,

·4· ·with the depth of cover and with the automated remotely

·5· ·controlled block valves.

·6· · · · · · Okay.· Jon.

·7· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· Thanks.· Yes, ma'am.

·8· · · · · · MS. BONITATIBUS:· Sorry, I've got a doozy of a

·9· ·last name.· Tonya Bonitatibus, B-o-n-i-t-a-t-i-b-u-s,

10· ·

· · · · · My name is Tonya Bonitatibus.· I represent the

13· ·Savannah Riverkeeper.· I also tonight represent a group

14· ·called Push Back the Pipeline, a group of 25 concerned

15· ·citizen groups in three states that have joined

16· ·together.

17· · · · · · We have serious concerns about this pipeline.

18· ·I'll be perfectly honest with you, I take this

19· ·personally.· This is my river.· It is going through the

20· ·entire thing.· So beyond just representing the Push

21· ·Back the Pipeline group, this is a personal issue for

22· ·me.

23· · · · · · One of the things I think you have to keep in

24· ·mind is that our economy and throughout this entire

25· ·area is completely relying on this river.· We don't

·1· ·have a similar capacity left.· We don't have room to be

·2· ·messing around.· Every time you mess up or somebody

·3· ·else messes up, somebody else may be at the lake down

·4· ·in Savannah, we all negatively get affected by that

·5· ·especially in this area.

·6· · · · · · I want to go through some of the main things

·7· ·that I have heard and the main reasons.· Number one is

·8· ·this is not a public hearing.· This is being touted as

·9· ·a public hearing.· These comments are going back to

10· ·King and Spalding.· They're not going back to DOT.

11· · · · · · Do we have a DOT representative in the room?

12· ·Is there DOT in here?· There is one DOT representative.

13· ·Okay.· Are the comments going back to you guys?

14· · · · · · MR. BOLDEN:· Yes.

15· · · · · · MS. BONITATIBUS:· Okay.· Are they going to be

16· ·responded to through DOT?

17· · · · · · MR. BOLDEN:· This depends.

18· · · · · · MS. BONITATIBUS:· All right.· So that's one

19· ·thing.· The second thing is this is the beginning of a

20· ·phase.· They have a couple different permits.· But I

21· ·will tell you in Georgia it's kind of scary.· There's

22· ·not a lot of permits that they have to get especially

23· ·if they don't have to use eminent domain.· There's a

24· ·lot of questions about whether state permits would even

25· ·be required.

·1· · · · · · One of the big issues, another one that we've

·2· ·heard a lot about especially in this area, is there is

·3· ·no benefit to us here.· There is no reason.· In North

·4· ·Augusta we already have some of the cheapest gas in the

·5· ·United States in North Augusta.

·6· · · · · · I'd like to know how that's economically

·7· ·feasible, and then all through Sylvania, Burke County

·8· ·and these areas, how are we supposed to benefit?· We

·9· ·take all the risk and there is no benefit to us.

10· · · · · · The other one is the access to property.· I am

11· ·getting tons of calls about this, about the fact that

12· ·these pipelines are avenues for four wheelers, illegal

13· ·hunting, illegal trespass.· It's opening these people's

14· ·property up to all kinds of various activities.

15· · · · · · The other one is the loss of the use of the

16· ·land.· I know that you said that you can do ag on

17· ·there.· I have worked with a lot of pipelines

18· ·throughout the Savannah River.· I'm sorry, one of

19· ·them -- Yes, often it is a third party that crushes

20· ·these pipelines or cuts into them.

21· · · · · · But you say you dig four feet.· What about

22· ·settling.· These guys are digging it too.· It does not

23· ·take very much to cut into these pipelines.· And

24· ·traditionally what I have seen is it often takes a lot

25· ·longer than you say in order to know that these spills

·1· ·that are occurring.

·2· · · · · · An average spill that I see is 70,000 gallons

·3· ·before somebody wakes up and sees that it's spilling.

·4· ·Oftentimes it's much more than that.· And specifically

·5· ·I'm not talking about oil and gas here.· I'm talking

·6· ·about Palen and some of the other spills that I've

·7· ·dealt with on the Savannah River and in Brier Creek.

·8· · · · · · The other big one that I'm hearing is that

·9· ·nobody has talked to Effingham.· Effingham County has

10· ·reached out to you guys and wants to sit down and have

11· ·a meeting.· This pipeline goes through Effingham more

12· ·than anywhere else and they feel left out.· They need a

13· ·hearing.· They need a real public hearing.

14· · · · · · And then the big one that you've already

15· ·addressed is I'd like to bring up the sightline

16· ·institute report on Kinder Morgan and their safety

17· ·violations.· They're huge and there's lots of different

18· ·things in here that I'd like some responses back on how

19· ·your behavior has changed since 2012 when this came out

20· ·and why should we trust you here in this area.

21· · · · · · Thank you very much.

22· · · · · · MR. FORE:· So we'll try to address as many of

23· ·those, and you can remind us if we miss a few.· I'm

24· ·sure we will.· But the one that stuck out at the

25· ·beginning of what you commented was you're not sure if

·1· ·we need to secure state permits.· We certainly do.

·2· · · · · · We have multiple environmental permits that we

·3· ·need to receive from the State of Georgia in order for

·4· ·this pipeline to be in service.· So those as well as

·5· ·the federal U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and Fish and

·6· ·Wildlife Service to name a couple of agencies that all

·7· ·have to be part of the permitting process on the

·8· ·project.

·9· · · · · · Whenever we look at projects, as I said at the

10· ·beginning, we design a project that is permittable in

11· ·our view.· In other words, we know what the regulations

12· ·are.· We know the permits that we need to receive, and

13· ·we know generally what the regulators are looking for,

14· ·and we're trying to design a project that's going to

15· ·fit that.

16· · · · · · We wouldn't have announced this project

17· ·without what we believe is a project that the agencies

18· ·are able to permit.· That means that fits, exceeds the

19· ·standards that they put out.· So the process is just

20· ·beginning, but without question we have state and

21· ·federal permits that we need to secure.

22· · · · · · We propose projects.· At the end of the day

23· ·the regulators will tell us what we can and cannot do.

24· ·We're a company.· We propose to service customers.

25· ·They tell us what we can and can't do, and that process

·1· ·is just getting started.

·2· · · · · · Do you want to talk about some of the --

·3· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· Let's talk about a couple of

·4· ·things.· One is the young lady just referenced some

·5· ·average numbers on spills and acknowledged that those

·6· ·went well beyond just the liquid petroleum pipeline

·7· ·industry, and I appreciate that acknowledgment because

·8· ·that doesn't reflect what goes on in the industry.

·9· · · · · · In the liquid pipeline petroleum industry, we

10· ·have to report to the federal pipeline, Office of

11· ·Pipeline Safety, PHMSA, that agency we mentioned, any

12· ·release greater than five gallons.

13· · · · · · So if you look at our database online and if

14· ·you look at the PHMSA database online, you'll see a lot

15· ·of really small maintenance-related type things

16· ·related, if a mechanic messes up, rips something, those

17· ·kind of things show up.

18· · · · · · That's another reason for putting containment

19· ·around is because you will also see that almost all of

20· ·those releases in the database occur inside facilities,

21· ·and that's where you have things that can happen like

22· ·gaskets might leak or a pump seal might leak, things

23· ·like that.· And that's what we want to consider from

24· ·the outset and we do intend to consider from the

25· ·outset.

·1· · · · · · Another thing that has not yet been brought up

·2· ·is one of the technologies we use now for crossing

·3· ·rivers is much, much less invasive than the old methods

·4· ·where we would trench across the river, silt up the

·5· ·river, damage the banks and it takes a while to restore

·6· ·banks and such.

·7· · · · · · So we now back away from water crossings on

·8· ·either side and use a drilling technique called

·9· ·horizontal directional drilling.· And we actually go

10· ·down in an arc under the river and come up away from

11· ·it, and that is a much, much less invasive way of

12· ·installing a pipeline.· For us that's our standard

13· ·practice now.

14· · · · · · Let's see, what else did we have?

15· · · · · · MR. FORE:· Effingham County, I know we had

16· ·last week a couple of commissioners were at the public

17· ·meeting we did, and we committed at that meeting to do

18· ·a presentation to Effingham and we've been in

19· ·communication.

20· · · · · · Stephanie Johnson I think is one of the staff

21· ·people, the clerk at the county.· We've also called up

22· ·one of the commissioners.· So we will be doing a

23· ·presentation in Effingham.

24· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· Do you have a date?

25· · · · · · MR. FORE:· Not yet.

·1· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· Will we be notified?

·2· · · · · · MR. FORE:· Sure.

·3· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· How?

·4· · · · · · MR. FORE:· Whenever the county wants us to do

·5· ·it, they want to do some type of publication.· This

·6· ·will be a meeting that will be held however they want

·7· ·us to hold it.· It might be in conjunction with a

·8· ·county commissioner's meeting.· I don't know.· We

·9· ·haven't gotten to that detail yet, but it will

10· ·certainly be public.

11· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· Yeah, the gentleman back here.

12· · · · · · MR. HELMLY:· My name is James Helmly,

13· ·H-e-l-m-l-y,

14· · · · · · My first question is y'all failed to answer

15· ·the gentlemen's first question is why don't you go down

16· ·the existing easement?· My second question is you said

17· ·this is your easement that you will get that will go on

18· ·forever and you're doing service to the community.· So

19· ·you're not going to make any profit off the 167,000

20· ·gallons a day you pump through the line?

21· · · · · · And you're going to take property from us and

22· ·give us a one-time fee where you make forever profit on

23· ·every gallon you pump through the pipeline.· And from

24· ·what I've read under the code of Georgia you can just

25· ·about do what you want to do.

·1· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· Let's talk about the route

·2· ·first.· The specific question I believe, if I remember

·3· ·how it was phrased was why can't we instead of

·4· ·installing a new pipeline, why cannot we pump this

·5· ·liquid product down that existing pipeline and not do

·6· ·anything other than that?

·7· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· Existing easement.

·8· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· Easement.

·9· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· Right-of-way.

10· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· Okay.· Well, there's a really

11· ·good reason why you can't go through down though the

12· ·same pipe.

13· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· It's not the same pipe.· It's

14· ·the right-of-way.

15· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· The right-of-way, and that's

16· ·something that we would have to look at.· Quite

17· ·frankly, I'm not familiar with that easement.· I know

18· ·that we did look at doing the preliminary layout at

19· ·what made the most sense for us.· And through this area

20· ·the first glance we looked at was the Georgia Power

21· ·easement and being adjacent to that.

22· · · · · · MR. HELMLY:· Okay.· And the rest of my

23· ·question.

24· · · · · · MR. FORE:· The other part was about the

25· ·payment to the landowners, the one-time payment for the

·1· ·easement.· So if we have property as Brian mentioned

·2· ·that we need to purchase in fee for facilities, we will

·3· ·do that.

·4· · · · · · The negotiation with the landowner, and this

·5· ·is standard process for our company and generally for

·6· ·companies that are locating infrastructure, pipeline

·7· ·infrastructure, will do a baseline survey of property

·8· ·values in a particular area and that will be the

·9· ·beginning of a discussion point with the individual

10· ·landowner.· The property value and in the future the

11· ·property value will all be part of that discussion.

12· · · · · · So each landowner will have a negotiation with

13· ·our land agents on the value of their property, and

14· ·issues like you brought up can be discussed at that

15· ·time on a one-on-one transaction with our land agents.

16· · · · · · We as a company are committed to working with

17· ·landowners on the valuation of the property and how we

18· ·utilize the property during construction and

19· ·restoration.· It's a lengthy process and we want the

20· ·process to go well.

21· · · · · · And we deal with thousands and thousands of

22· ·landowners every day on our pipeline systems, our 8,000

23· ·miles of pipe, and it doesn't just end when we finish

24· ·our project.· This is a process that continues as you

25· ·mentioned.· So we want to make sure that the

·1· ·right-of-way is restored, that the landowner concerns

·2· ·are taken into account up front.

·3· · · · · · And again this is Brian and I up here in front

·4· ·of you talking, but I think also people talked about

·5· ·companies and records and what we do.· You can also

·6· ·look at what we do from a perspective of where we

·7· ·currently operate our pipe in the State of Georgia and

·8· ·how we've taken care of it, how we deal with landowners

·9· ·in the area, and I think that in many ways speaks for

10· ·itself.

11· · · · · · MR. HELMLY:· The code of a petroleum pipeline

12· ·where it says basically the petroleum pipeline, there's

13· ·several things in a row about the 20 Code.

14· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· Sir, I'm not exactly sure what

15· ·you're referencing.· I believe you're talking about the

16· ·Georgia law that pipeline companies --

17· · · · · · MR. HELMLY:· Petroleum.

18· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· Yeah, petroleum pipeline

19· ·companies to operate.· Your specific question though is

20· ·a little too general.

21· · · · · · MR. HELMLY:· Well, it says in what I read in

22· ·the 20 Code that really we can't keep you off our

23· ·property if you want to come in and survey, you can do

24· ·it if you read that.

25· · · · · · I didn't bring the 20 dash so and so and so

·1· ·and so.· But when you search it, it comes up with three

·2· ·of them that's specifically related to petroleum

·3· ·pipelines and, you know, what you can and can't do and

·4· ·come on the property and such things as that.

·5· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· What I would say in response is

·6· ·that Allen described the property rights his company is

·7· ·seeking here.· Those are easements.· Easements are

·8· ·defined.· They authorize the company to do certain

·9· ·things, and those are the rights that we would be

10· ·seeking from individual landowners.

11· · · · · · MR. HELMLY:· And will you use eminent domain

12· ·if the landowner decides not to take what you offer?

13· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· This is a project --

14· · · · · · MR. HELMLY:· Yes or no?

15· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· That's the purpose of the

16· ·meeting, isn't it, 22383, you have to hold the public

17· ·meeting before you can start condemning land.· So the

18· ·purpose of the meeting is so that you can exercise your

19· ·right of eminent domain.· That's why you're having

20· ·it.

21· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· Let's be fair.· The purpose of

22· ·the meeting, we are having this meeting at the DOT's

23· ·request because we are receiving the DOT's approval,

24· ·their conclusion that we are within the public

25· ·convenience and necessity.· That's why we're here.

·1· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· And to get that certificate you

·2· ·have to have that meeting which is the only reason you

·3· ·have it because 22383 says you have to.

·4· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· We're having the meeting for the

·5· ·reasons that we described earlier.· But I would say

·6· ·this.· If you have a specific comment, we can address

·7· ·it.· It doesn't do good for the court reporter for us

·8· ·to go back and forth.

·9· · · · · · What I would say in response to the

10· ·gentleman's question is that we're seeking easements

11· ·and that's ultimately what we need.· The project is --

12· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· That's not the answer.

13· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· I understand, but the project is

14· ·of significant importance though.· And there may be

15· ·instances where not all landowners are able to agree,

16· ·and we'll address that at the time it arises.

17· · · · · · MR. HELMLY:· And, yes or no, will you use

18· ·eminent domain?

19· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· I think that to the extent that

20· ·the --

21· · · · · · MR. HELMLY:· I think you said yes.

22· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· We will use the power that

23· ·Georgia law authorizes us to have to get the property

24· ·necessary to complete our project.

25· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· That's a yes.

·1· · · · · · MR. HELMLY:· To make the profits for your

·2· ·company at the expense of the landowners.

·3· · · · · · MR. ZIPPERER:· I'm Allen Zipperer,

5· · · · · · I'm pretty sure you were involved in the Elba

·6· ·Express and you remember me on that, right?

·7· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· I believe it was the Cypress

·8· ·matter, right.

·9· · · · · · MR. ZIPPERER:· Okay.· I'm going to tell you

10· ·guys how far it goes.· They come to you.· They offered

11· ·me a small amount of money offered for the lifetime use

12· ·of my land and I turned it down.· They came back down a

13· ·month later and offered me half that.

14· · · · · · So we had to hire lawyers and go to court to

15· ·try to get what was right.· That's how Kinder Morgan

16· ·treats the landowner because I'm one that you treated

17· ·that way, the Elba Express pipeline.

18· · · · · · So I mean I'm watching you stand up here

19· ·telling everybody what great corporate citizens you

20· ·are, but I'm a guy who had to spend a lot of money with

21· ·lawyers to get a pittance of what my land was worth.

22· · · · · · So I couldn't sit there no longer and hear you

23· ·talk about how good you are because I am one of those

24· ·guys that they took the land from.

25· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· I am one too.

·1· · · · · · MR. ZIPPERER:· Exactly.· And now you have a

·2· ·line in your agreement -- I know you're not familiar

·3· ·with it but I am because I have a copy of it.· You took

·4· ·a line, you took a 50-foot I think easement through our

·5· ·property for a 14 or a 16-inch pipeline and the right

·6· ·to put other existing lines as Kinder Morgan saw

·7· ·necessary.· Okay?

·8· · · · · · You already have an easement all the way to

·9· ·Florida.· Why don't you just get in that easement and

10· ·put your line down and leave everybody else alone?

11· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· Amen.

12· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· I can appreciate -- I

13· ·understand what you're saying.· I understand where

14· ·you're coming from.· We do not like to have results

15· ·like that.

16· · · · · · Now, as far as using the existing Cypress

17· ·pipeline right-of-way, we would need to spend some more

18· ·time taking a look at that one.· The route that we have

19· ·identified was again, like I told you, that is our

20· ·preliminary, our primary route that we're looking at is

21· ·the one that makes the most sense for us right now.

22· · · · · · Now, we're always open to looking at other

23· ·options.· And, you know, we did mention that we will be

24· ·paralleling the Cypress pipeline from Savannah

25· ·southward.

·1· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· We're Savannah north.

·2· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· I understand that.

·3· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· We don't much care about

·4· ·Savannah south.· We're Savannah north.

·5· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· I won't tell anybody you said

·6· ·that.· We'll be down in Brunswick later in the week.

·7· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· Okay.· Yes, sir.· For the benefit

·8· ·of the court reporter, she's having a little bit of a

·9· ·hard time hearing the comments that are made.

10· · · · · · MR. PUTNAM:· My name is Michael Putnam, and I

11· ·live at

12· · · · · · I have a number of written comments, many of

13· ·which have been expressed.· I am not a landowner in the

14· ·project area and I know that it must be tough for some

15· ·of you.

16· · · · · · I've had the great pleasure to travel through

17· ·the wetlands of the Savannah River and to fish in

18· ·various regions of that river.· I know folks here who

19· ·have hunted and fished in that area, some of them for

20· ·six, seven and eight decades.

21· · · · · · I don't speak to oppose the pipeline though I

22· ·know there are various environmental groups and

23· ·individuals here who will continue to oppose it as well

24· ·as landowners.

25· · · · · · I'm aware that during some 18 months of

·1· ·construction there will be significant deterioration

·2· ·and disruption of terrestrial and aquatic resources in

·3· ·the disruptions of all forms of natural recreational

·4· ·opportunities that these areas provide.

·5· · · · · · I've reviewed information provided by Kinder

·6· ·Morgan, the Plantation pipeline company, Palmetto as

·7· ·well as information by the various news outlets in the

·8· ·groups opposed to the project.· I really appreciated

·9· ·all the information I could find online, so that was

10· ·amazing to me once I started looking for it.

11· · · · · · A number of comments here have already been

12· ·talked about.· We the public will hold you responsible

13· ·for that pipeline's operation.· We know that there are

14· ·minor releases that are reported, but we know there

15· ·have been some major ones as well.· So we're assuming

16· ·that you're going to live up to your word on that.

17· · · · · · The information on the 360-mile project says

18· ·it will cost about a billion dollars.· Well, I'm not a

19· ·mathematician but that's something like 2.7 million

20· ·dollars a mile.· That's amazing.

21· · · · · · It also talks about a 50 foot right-of-way.

22· ·Well, there's 5,280 feet in a mile and there's 360

23· ·miles.· That's a tremendously wide swath of the

24· ·resources in the wetlands, riverbanks, river bottoms of

25· ·these three states.

·1· · · · · · I believe this project provides a wonderful

·2· ·opportunity to the three companies of this pipeline and

·3· ·its users to provide real leadership in the industry by

·4· ·respecting the resources they are allowed to use and

·5· ·the people who own and/or use them.

·6· · · · · · I believe the company should provide

·7· ·mitigation for the disruption caused during

·8· ·construction and for future operation.· The 27 million

·9· ·dollars or more I'm suggesting that something like

10· ·one-tenth of one percent of the pipeline cost be

11· ·provided for recreational and habitat improvements in

12· ·the construction area and for annual maintenance of

13· ·associated facilities.

14· · · · · · While construction equipment and employees are

15· ·there, you could provide new and/or improved access

16· ·road, recreational facilities both on sites, fish

17· ·cleaning stations and improve wildlife and fisheries

18· ·habitat.

19· · · · · · As you will receive millions of dollars

20· ·annually for the pipeline use, it is only reasonable

21· ·that you would provide funding for the maintenance of

22· ·such facilities and sites.

23· · · · · · It seems a minimal effort and a very, very

24· ·small percentage of the cost is needed to leave behind

25· ·a most positive legacy.· Improved recreation and

·1· ·fisheries opportunities would greatly benefit the area

·2· ·you are seeking to use.

·3· · · · · · In closing my question is what will you leave

·4· ·behind?

·5· · · · · · MR. FORE:· Those are good comments.· And I

·6· ·said at the beginning of the meeting, if you'll recall,

·7· ·is it's not about what a company says the first night

·8· ·they're talking about the project.· It's what folks say

·9· ·when we're finished.

10· · · · · · And I heard from a couple of landowners here

11· ·tonight that were not happy about their experience with

12· ·us before.· I'm not familiar with that, but it's

13· ·something that certainly I'd like to know more about.

14· · · · · · My job at the company is exactly what you're

15· ·talking about is our relationship with communities and

16· ·states throughout the country.· So we are committed to

17· ·that.· And take a look at our assets and what we're

18· ·doing now.

19· · · · · · Now, there are -- I don't dispute what was

20· ·said tonight, but usually our relationships with

21· ·landowners is well over 95 percent are resolved to the

22· ·landowner's satisfaction.· That's a pretty good number.

23· ·It's not perfect and we can do better, but it's a

24· ·pretty good number of landowners being satisfied with

25· ·what we have done and how we have treated them through

·1· ·the construction and operation process.

·2· · · · · · So what we commit to do is to being a company

·3· ·that is respected, and what happens here in this county

·4· ·in Sylvania and surrounding communities happens all

·5· ·across the country.· We don't live in a vacuum.· At the

·6· ·meeting here tonight there are folks who are opposed to

·7· ·the project.· What we do is scrutinized and reported

·8· ·not just by the regulatory folks but by everyone.

·9· · · · · · We build pipelines and operate pipelines.· So

10· ·unless we do it right here, it affects our entire

11· ·system so our reputation is very important.· And again

12· ·we're not a perfect company.· We're always striving to

13· ·be better but -- and that wasn't time to fall just as I

14· ·said that.

15· · · · · · But we're committed to working with all folks

16· ·including those who are not supportive of the project

17· ·to try to make this project better and to leave a

18· ·project that we can be proud of because it's important

19· ·to us, it's important to you, it's important to all the

20· ·stakeholders that are part of the project.· That's our

21· ·commitment.

22· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· Okay.· Yes, sir.

23· · · · · · MR. SMOAK:· My name is Dan Smoak,

· · · · · The reason I want to stand up here and say a

·1· ·few things and I'm probably going to take it as I'm for

·2· ·the pipeline.· This doesn't affect me.· I don't have

·3· ·any land.· It's not going to go through my property.

·4· · · · · · Two years ago I live on Highway 21 up here.

·5· ·When you see ten trucks go by with fuel in a day go to

·6· ·a hundred trucks a day, you start wondering what's

·7· ·going on here?· Well, it all comes down to one thing.

·8· ·Anybody ever hear of the Jones Act of 1920?· All right.

·9· ·It's also called the Merchant Marine Act of 1920.

10· ·These guys know what I'm talking about.

11· · · · · · MR. FORE:· Yeah, we're familiar.

12· · · · · · MR. SMOAK:· Okay.· And you're going to wonder

13· ·what in the world has that got to do with pipeline.

14· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· Must be a lot if they know

15· ·about it.

16· · · · · · MR. SMOAK:· It requires if anybody ships a

17· ·product from the port in the United States, it's got to

18· ·be put on an American-built ship, an American-owned

19· ·ship and an American-manned ship, which means you put

20· ·fuel on a ship in Houston, Texas, and take it to

21· ·Savannah, Georgia, it's got to be on one of them ships.

22· · · · · · They don't have no choice.· It's law.· It's

23· ·just for y'all to take into consideration.· That's why

24· ·I'm here to tell you.· And I often wondered what in the

25· ·world is going to happen with all their trucks, and all

·1· ·that's leveled out some.· It's not like it was.

·2· · · · · · But they come by seven days a week.· They haul

·3· ·hundreds of thousands of gallons of fuel through this

·4· ·county every single day, diesel fuel, gas, jet fuel. A

·5· ·truck comes right by my house.· Sunday morning at 9:25

·6· ·I get in my truck to come to Sunday school and there's

·7· ·a truck right behind me.· They don't ever stop, seven

·8· ·days a week.

·9· · · · · · All right.· The problem or what the situation

10· ·is in the 1950s there was a thousand ships out there.

11· ·By the year 2000 there was 200 ships.· 2014 there is 94

12· ·ships out there.· There's only 13 of those ships that

13· ·can haul fuel, only 13 ships.

14· · · · · · So what I'm saying is Colonial Oil down here

15· ·in Savannah I think was in the port of shutting down

16· ·because they cannot get fuel or didn't want to pay the

17· ·price.· All of a sudden they started going to Augusta,

18· ·Georgia, getting the fuel and shipping it.· And it goes

19· ·all the way through here, it goes all the way down

20· ·there, it goes to Richmond Hill.· I see the same trucks

21· ·come by my house down there at Richmond Hill.

22· · · · · · So that's something to think about, you know,

23· ·when you're talking about this, you know, the long

24· ·term.· And there's some sort of monopoly these shipping

25· ·companies got on them, you know.· You can Google it.

·1· ·That's what I did on some of this information. A

·2· ·couple of years ago I got interested in it, and I went

·3· ·back recently and looked up some more information, you

·4· ·know, to refresh my memory.

·5· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· So, David, what are you saying,

·6· ·that you think there will be less trucks hauling fuel?

·7· · · · · · MR. PUTMAN:· Well, currently all these -- I'm

·8· ·assuming some of these trucks may be going to Macon to

·9· ·get fuel.· Most of them are going to North Augusta to

10· ·get this fuel.· I mean they come through this county.

11· ·I mean, you know, if you don't travel Highway 21 you

12· ·probably don't see a lot of them.

13· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· I see them coming back by the

14· ·bypass where my property is.

15· · · · · · MR. PUTMAN:· They come through town.

16· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· Yeah.· They come through the

17· ·front of the house or they come through the back of the

18· ·house.· They hit me both ways.

19· · · · · · MR. PUTMAN:· I actually asked our county fire

20· ·chief one day, you know, are you prepared and he said I

21· ·believe we are, you know, if something bad happens.

22· ·And that's just something to think about.· This doesn't

23· ·affect me.· It doesn't go through my land.

24· · · · · · I just wanted to inform people of what, you

25· ·know, what's going on, you know, getting gas off of a

·1· ·boat versus getting it out of a pipeline.· You know,

·2· ·what's the long-term?· And I'm going to tell you

·3· ·Senator McCain, he introduced the law I think last year

·4· ·to get this law appealed.· It's 94 years old and it's

·5· ·still on the books and they've having to abide by it.

·6· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· Thank you.· Okay.· Further

·7· ·questions.· Yes, ma'am.

·8· · · · · · MS. ANDERSON:· My name is Jardene Anderson.

· · · · · We talked about the effective economics of

11· ·this pipeline it would create, but there's one thing I

12· ·still want answered.· This company has talked about

13· ·that they would move their line enough that it would

14· ·preserve the battleground.· But they didn't say where

15· ·they're going to move it to or how far they're going to

16· ·move it and how far are they going to move it.

17· · · · · · I want to know and I want it answered for the

18· ·record what impact will the pipeline have on the

19· ·battleground after all the dust settles?· Will there be

20· ·any impact on the battleground?

21· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· And Toccoa.

22· · · · · · MS. ANDERSON:· And Toccoa.

23· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· Okay.· We've moving the

24· ·pipeline.· I mentioned earlier we've identified an

25· ·alternate route.· We're not quite prepared to talk

·1· ·about that yet because one of the things we have to do

·2· ·is work with the property owners along this identified

·3· ·route.· And we have right-of-way agents out that are

·4· ·working on that now beginning this week, and after that

·5· ·we'll be able to publicize that route.

·6· · · · · · I will tell you that what we're looking at is

·7· ·moving well away from the battlefield, and also we're

·8· ·looking at doing one of those horizontal directional

·9· ·drills under Briar Creek at a point where the wildlife

10· ·management area is at its narrowest, okay, to minimize

11· ·impact there.

12· · · · · · And we have been talking with the E and R

13· ·folks about the wildlife management areas also because

14· ·we want to minimize impact in those.· Okay.

15· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· Are you saying it will impact

16· ·the battlefield or not?

17· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· No, sir.· We do not intend to

18· ·impact the battlefield.

19· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· Further questions?· Yes, ma'am.

20· · · · · · MS. BODDIFORD:· My name is Debo Boddiford,

21· ·D-e-b-o, B-o-d-d-i-f-o-r-d,

· · · · · I have a few questions and I wrote them down

24· ·so that way you'll make sure you answer them.· I want

25· ·to know where the so-called permanent jobs are going to

·1· ·be located.

·2· · · · · · Some of our families previously met with some

·3· ·Kinder Morgan folks.· Their number greatly varied from

·4· ·the number you all offered, and I want to know if any

·5· ·of those jobs will be in Screven County or anywhere

·6· ·near Screven County.

·7· · · · · · You mentioned the control center is in

·8· ·Atlanta, so I assume most of the jobs may be there. I

·9· ·may be wrong.· I'm sure there will be some at the

10· ·pumping stations perhaps in Augusta and Savannah but

11· ·I'd like to know that.

12· · · · · · Our family would like to know how much of this

13· ·gas that's going to be floating through our property is

14· ·going to be exported to the Savannah and Jacksonville

15· ·ports.· I'd like to know how often and how the pipeline

16· ·easement is inspected for leaks.

17· · · · · · And getting back to the easements that Kinder

18· ·Morgan already has for natural gas, on a previous map

19· ·you showed this pipeline already goes, the gasoline

20· ·pipeline already goes to Macon.· You showed a natural

21· ·gas pipeline that looked like it went to about

22· ·Brunswick.

23· · · · · · Why can't you follow your Kinder Morgan

24· ·existing natural gas pipeline from this area down

25· ·there?· Why are you encroaching on more, you know,

·1· ·landowners and getting in the wetlands of the Savannah

·2· ·River when you've already got easements?

·3· · · · · · I always had wondered in the past if maybe you

·4· ·cannot have gasoline and natural gas flowing side by

·5· ·side on the same easement.· But you said, you know, you

·6· ·told us you can because you've already got it going

·7· ·down into Florida.

·8· · · · · · So I mean, you know -- you said you don't know

·9· ·about this natural gas on the western side of Screven

10· ·County, but surely you know about the one that you've

11· ·already got on your map that you showed us on the

12· ·previous slide.· No, I got more questions.

13· · · · · · MR. FORE:· She's got more questions.

14· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· I'm sorry, I'm running out of

15· ·fingers.

16· · · · · · MS. BODDIFORD:· Well, I've got a list.

17· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· She's giving you the list to go

18· ·over.

19· · · · · · MS. BODDIFORD:· I'm giving you the list.· I'm

20· ·from a farming and a logging family, and they want to

21· ·know why there are load restrictions for crossing the

22· ·pipe.· I know you said you're going to bury it for four

23· ·feet and you act like you're going above and beyond.

24· · · · · · This is sandy soil and it's wet.· And you can

25· ·expect a good bit of erosion in many of the places

·1· ·you're going to put it in the Savannah River.· And you

·2· ·said man tends to create most of the leaks.

·3· · · · · · Well, you put a log truck out there on top of

·4· ·this or do you know how big farm machinery and how

·5· ·heavy it is these days and how deep those plows go?· So

·6· ·anyway that's just something else that we would like --

·7· ·I know my husband is back in the back and he would like

·8· ·an answer.

·9· · · · · · I also have just a statement that I'd like to

10· ·make.· As a former educator, I look at words and the

11· ·meaning of words, and you're here to obtain a

12· ·certificate of public convenience and necessity. I

13· ·looked up the word public in the dictionary.

14· · · · · · The word public in the dictionary says

15· ·concerning the people as a whole, open to and/or shared

16· ·by the people of an area or a region.· I don't think

17· ·you've met that with this at least for Screven County.

18· ·Convenience; that means sustainability or

19· ·accommodating, anything that saves or simplifies work

20· ·or adds to one's ease or comfort.

21· · · · · · Necessity means being required or

22· ·indispensable.· I don't think this has been required.

23· ·From what I've gathered we're not going to get a drop

24· ·of oil in Screven County or gasoline from this pipe and

25· ·I don't know if we're going to get any jobs.· So that

·1· ·means to me it's not a necessity, it's not required,

·2· ·it's not indispensable.

·3· · · · · · Convenience; in my family we try to do it the

·4· ·cheapest way we can, the shortest way we can.

·5· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· That's why they're not using

·6· ·that other pipeline.

·7· · · · · · MS. BODDIFORD:· So if that's the truth, why

·8· ·aren't you using existing easements that you already

·9· ·have.· Then you don't have to fight these battles and

10· ·have these meetings.· You know, kill two birds with one

11· ·easement.

12· · · · · · Getting back to the convenience where it's

13· ·supposed to add to one's ease or comfort, it does not

14· ·add to the comfort and the ease of the people of

15· ·Screven County to have our creeks, our wetlands and our

16· ·rivers that we so love, that we fish, to have them

17· ·potentially destroyed by a gasoline leak.

18· · · · · · It does not add to our comfort or it's not

19· ·suitable for you to put a pipeline through a

20· ·battlefield and I know you promised you won't.· We also

21· ·have Civil War, the battlefield sites.· We also have

22· ·Native American where they lived and where they're

23· ·buried.· We have a lot of things up the Savannah River

24· ·corridor that need to be considered.

25· · · · · · And as a mother and I hope a grandmother one

·1· ·day, it does not add to my ease and my comfort or the

·2· ·necessity for my children and my descendants to have to

·3· ·pay taxes on your easement forever but they're never

·4· ·going to be able to grow timber ever again.· So that

·5· ·doesn't add to my comfort.

·6· · · · · · So here's the questions.· Have at it.

·7· · · · · · (Handing document.)

·8· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· All right.· Ma'am, thank you

·9· ·for leaving us your questions because I was out of

10· ·fingers.

11· · · · · · All right.· Where will the permanent jobs be?

12· ·We talked about 28 jobs will be created by this

13· ·project.· There will be five pipeline controllers that

14· ·will work shift work to cover the operating console to

15· ·run this pipeline around the clock.

16· · · · · · There will be at least one pipeline scheduler

17· ·behind them to help them plan the deliveries and work

18· ·the schedule for how they run that pipeline.· Those

19· ·jobs are at Alpharetta, Georgia, outside of Atlanta.

20· ·Okay?

21· · · · · · And there will be -- there will be -- Let's

22· ·see, I think we've got one job or two jobs up in Belton

23· ·in the Savannah area.· We will have four jobs at a

24· ·terminal that will be built there, and there will be

25· ·another probably four jobs at a pipeline pump station

·1· ·and maintenance facility somewhere in that area.

·2· · · · · · We've not yet located that.· That will be

·3· ·co-located with one of those pipeline pump stations

·4· ·we've talked about.· And then there will be probably in

·5· ·south Georgia, there will probably be another one or

·6· ·two maintenance positions.· I haven't done all my math

·7· ·but that's fairly close.· So no, I'm sorry, here in the

·8· ·county we're not looking at any permanent jobs.

·9· · · · · · Now, one thing that Allen mentioned was we're

10· ·anticipating a very large construction workforce moving

11· ·through.· And when those folks do come through, they

12· ·spend money locally, they stay in hotels, they eat,

13· ·they buy gas, they buy goods and services.

14· · · · · · Let's see, how much of the gas is being

15· ·exported from Savannah and Jacksonville?· Well, what

16· ·the gentleman who was up here just a moment ago talking

17· ·about the Jones Act really hit on a key piece of this

18· ·because the customers who have committed to ship on

19· ·this pipeline, they are recognizing that Savannah and

20· ·Jacksonville markets are currently for the most part

21· ·served by marine.

22· · · · · · They're recognizing that that's getting

23· ·tougher and tougher to do and that's why they're

24· ·interested in bringing in a pipeline.· They also

25· ·recognize that in addition to the fewer number of

·1· ·vessels that when you have a hurricane whether it's in

·2· ·the Atlantic or in the gulf, it impacts shipments on

·3· ·the eastern seaboard because all of the petroleum that

·4· ·we're consuming here in the southeast comes out from

·5· ·the band from about Houston.

·6· · · · · · There's a little bit in Corpus Christi, huge

·7· ·production centers around Houston and Baytown, Baton

·8· ·Rouge all the way down to New Orleans and then a

·9· ·refinery over in Pascagoula.· That's where we get our

10· ·gas, our diesel, our jet fuel.

11· · · · · · And Kinder Morgan has no involvement in

12· ·exporting anywhere.· Our customers are not talking

13· ·about exporting, they're talking about importing, and

14· ·the facility that we intend to build south of Savannah

15· ·and probably will be a little south of Richmond Hill

16· ·where we will have the tank farm and truckloading is

17· ·landlocked.· It has no access to the port.

18· · · · · · How often and how is the pipeline easement

19· ·inspected?· There's a requirement from again that

20· ·federal agency PHMSA that at least 26 times a year, no

21· ·more than three weeks in between time an operating

22· ·company inspect that easement.· Most of us in the

23· ·industry pay a company to fly the right-of-ways for us.

24· · · · · · And in Kinder Morgan we try to -- we're

25· ·committed to hitting that regulatory requirement 26

·1· ·times a year.· Our goal is and we almost always do it

·2· ·is fly in those right-of-ways weekly.· We also have

·3· ·technicians who are out and about on that right-of-way.

·4· · · · · · They're the ones that would be meeting with

·5· ·people who want to cross the pipeline whether it's

·6· ·another utility who calls in through that 811 dig

·7· ·number or whether it is someone who is driving heavy

·8· ·equipment across this or harvesting timber.

·9· · · · · · And our local folks will meet with those

10· ·people, and typically to accommodate say a log

11· ·truckload, the weights and axle loading are provided by

12· ·the operator who wishes to cross the pipeline.· And

13· ·that's crunched through -- our engineer folks have an

14· ·analysis that they go through and determine how to

15· ·appropriately pad on top of the pipeline prior to

16· ·allowing that traffic to go across.

17· · · · · · Sometimes it can be done with an earthen pad.

18· ·Frequently in soils like we'll see around here I would

19· ·anticipate that we will have timber mats on top of the

20· ·line.· And then, of course, the depth of those timber

21· ·mats is based on the individual wheel loads.

22· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· At y'all cost or the customer's

23· ·expense?

24· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· Whoever wishes to cross us it's

25· ·at their expense.

·1· · · · · · Why can't Kinder Morgan natural gas easement

·2· ·from Macon to Brunswick be used?· Okay.· There's

·3· ·actually two different -- I'm very familiar with this

·4· ·piece of easement.· That is for an eight-inch products

·5· ·pipeline that serves the Macon and military base

·6· ·community down there.

·7· · · · · · That is only a 30-foot wide easement.· I am

·8· ·not personally familiar with one that goes down beyond

·9· ·that.· But I do know -- Excuse me, madam.· I do know

10· ·that the reason that the line originates in the Belton

11· ·community is because the customers who are interested

12· ·in supporting this pipeline are interested in

13· ·delivering in Augusta, Savannah and Jacksonville.

14· · · · · · And Augusta is the key to coming off or why we

15· ·come off up at Belton and have this route to catch all

16· ·of those locations.· There were alternatives that were

17· ·evaluated coming out of Bremen, Georgia.· Those results

18· ·actually in greater distances.· And, let's see, I know

19· ·in at least one of the options we looked at it would

20· ·involve actually more impact on non co-located

21· ·easements, in other words, more brand new easement

22· ·would be required.

23· · · · · · Let's see, what do we have?· We talked about

24· ·loads crossing.· And an acknowledgment that this is

25· ·sandy soils.· We do have to be very careful about

·1· ·people utilizing easements for four-wheeling.· And most

·2· ·property owners aren't interested in having

·3· ·four-wheelers run up and down the easement either

·4· ·because it's their property.

·5· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· They do.

·6· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· I'm sorry, the comment up here

·7· ·was but people do it.· Yeah, that's an acknowledgement.

·8· ·It's mostly a young male thing.

·9· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· Not necessarily.· Young girls

10· ·do.

11· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· All right.· Okay.· I think that

12· ·was it.

13· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· All right.· You had your hand

14· ·raised a number of times.

15· · · · · · MS. EVANS:· All right.· Thank you.

16· · · · · · MR. FORE:· Margaret Evans,

.· As mayor I was authorized to

18· ·preserve a proclamation, a resolution today for the

19· ·protection of the Brier Creek battle site and for the

20· ·graves.

21· · · · · · It's not necessary for me to read this

22· ·resolution, but I just want to thank you for your

23· ·consideration in this because the way I feel about it,

24· ·there are 150 men that are buried out there that lost

25· ·their lives in the battle of Brier Creek.· They gave

·1· ·their lives for us, and now it's time for us to defend

·2· ·theirs.· Thank you very much.

·3· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· So as I said, we'll be around

·4· ·later.· We're not shutting it down.· There's a handful

·5· ·of hands raised.· We'll go ahead and grab those, but

·6· ·then we want to remind you that we'll be around once

·7· ·the meeting is concluded to answer additional questions

·8· ·that you may have.

·9· · · · · · Yes, sir.

10· · · · · · MR. HICKS:· My name is Harry Hicks.· I'm at

11·

12· · · · · · I don't see a whole lot of young faces in this

13· ·room.· I mean I'm not saying that there's not.· I'm 65

14· ·years old.· I'm retired here in Screven County and I

15· ·love this place.

16· · · · · · In your history have you ever been -- Since

17· ·the '70s we've been watching these town meetings and

18· ·corporate guys come in and they give their spiel

19· ·knowing that you don't know anything.· And when they're

20· ·done, you've had your meeting.· How many meetings have

21· ·you watched on the news against these guys and when

22· ·they make promises and promises and promises and for

23· ·the most part the promises are never fulfilled.

24· · · · · · In this county they're talking about this --

25· ·And I'm really blind to all of us.· But the necessity,

·1· ·I don't see the necessity, the public necessity,

·2· ·because the one thing I noticed in this up here when

·3· ·they said something about benefits, well, first off was

·4· ·the 1200 jobs.

·5· · · · · · If you don't Kinder -- Kinder Morgan doesn't

·6· ·already have fully ample crews with trucks and tig

·7· ·welders and mig welders and heavy equipment operators

·8· ·and their own heavy equipment, you're sadly mistaken.

·9· ·So the number of those temporary jobs, they belong to

10· ·Kinder Morgan anyway for the most part.

11· · · · · · Them guys aren't going to come here and stay

12· ·in Sylvania and stay down here at the green cottage and

13· ·rent the green lamp motel and the swamp army depot.· It

14· ·happens time and time again.· They already know what

15· ·they're going to do.· It hasn't been brought to any

16· ·type of public referendum.· There has been no public

17· ·necessity demonstrated to this group for Screven

18· ·County.· There's been no public convenience and there

19· ·is no benefit.

20· · · · · · Now, what about the trucks?· And that's an

21· ·issue because, you know, with the pollution and all the

22· ·stuff that goes with the trucks.· But you think on the

23· ·other hand, that pipeline is going to limit a lot of

24· ·trucks.· And you know what that means to the suppliers

25· ·that are utilizing that pipeline.· They don't got to

·1· ·pay truck drivers.· They don't got to pay mechanics.

·2· ·They don't got to pay yards.

·3· · · · · · They don't have to do nothing except put it in

·4· ·the pipe and shoot it down the line, and that's going

·5· ·to eliminate a lot of jobs.· How many people in here

·6· ·know truck drivers around here?· A lot of truck

·7· ·drivers.· So, you know, where you can benefits it

·8· ·doesn't exist.· It's not going to exist in Screven

·9· ·County.

10· · · · · · And then it said that the other part of the

11· ·benefits was that the market at the terminals or

12· ·something to that nature, the only people that's

13· ·benefiting from the pipeline is the people that it's

14· ·emptying at the end and filling it at the start and

15· ·that's all you'll ever see.

16· · · · · · And I'm kind of surprised not knowing anything

17· ·about it why there hasn't been any kind of public

18· ·referendum where they can just run through and get the

19· ·permits which they already are in the process of

20· ·getting, and you know sometimes and I'm not -- it's

21· ·tongue in cheek, some permits around here are awful

22· ·easy to get and with the state it's the same way.

23· · · · · · So when you think about it, what is the result

24· ·of this meeting to begin with except to satisfy what

25· ·they're required to do?· That's all that's happening.

·1· ·So if they got to go further, you got to find a way to

·2· ·take it there.

·3· · · · · · But it's been my experience in all the town

·4· ·meetings I've attended, and I'm not an activist. I

·5· ·just like to know what's going on in my community when

·6· ·big business wants to come in.· That's what you need to

·7· ·find out.

·8· · · · · · That's really all I got to say.

·9· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· I respectfully disagree with

10· ·you on the number of jobs that are talked about here.

11· ·There's 1200 temporary construction jobs that we're

12· ·looking at during the duration of this construction

13· ·period.

14· · · · · · There will be a number of pipeline

15· ·construction companies involved in building this

16· ·cross-country pipeline.· There are probably only about,

17· ·I don't know, two dozen, maybe three dozen good

18· ·cross-country pipeline spread crews in the United

19· ·States.

20· · · · · · Those guys are staffed by specialists who know

21· ·how to do that type of work.· And those are the guys --

22· ·the guys that we're going to see move in from some of

23· ·these companies that move all over the place, all over

24· ·the U.S., those guys are your superintendents and your

25· ·foremen and your crew lead type folks.

·1· · · · · · There will be local laborers hired because the

·2· ·contractors don't move those guys around.· That's just

·3· ·how it works.· So there will be some impact there

·4· ·locally.· Just a clarification, we don't use tig and

·5· ·mig welding.

·6· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· Whatever.

·7· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· We do weld.· And, you know,

·8· ·welding, sometimes I see welders come in from other

·9· ·parts of the country.· But also, you know, pipeline

10· ·welders are from all over the country, and I also see

11· ·contractors pick up local welders when they can pass

12· ·the pipeline certification testing particularly in the

13· ·station facilities you see.

14· · · · · · I do expect to see some local hiring.· I don't

15· ·know what that number is, and that's really something

16· ·that our contractors will be determining.· But there

17· ·will be some local impact as we move along.

18· · · · · · MR. FORE:· And the -- we shouldn't understate

19· ·the economic impact too.· And again we talked to folks

20· ·where we've built our pipelines and the chambers of

21· ·commerce that are part of a small business community

22· ·and we'll be part of the chamber of commerce here too.

23· ·The small businesses that service hundreds of

24· ·construction workers in an area benefit.

25· · · · · · It's millions of dollars to them.· It's tax

·1· ·revenue to them from a sales tax perspective and the

·2· ·taxing bodies.· So it is a significant local impact but

·3· ·temporary.· But we're talking six months to a year of

·4· ·significant impact, and the more services that a town

·5· ·has, the more likely the pipeliners are to temporarily

·6· ·reside in that particular area.

·7· · · · · · So this county and where you were located,

·8· ·you're going see a significant economic impact over a

·9· ·short period of time.· I mentioned before the longer

10· ·period is the taxes.· So we're estimating about

11· ·$700,000 a year in ad valorem taxes to the county

12· ·taxing bodies.

13· · · · · · That doesn't mean the county is going to get

14· ·every bit of that, but the school district or whatever

15· ·taxing bodies we pass through where the pipe actually

16· ·passes, that will be a distributed on an annual basis.

17· · · · · · That's not a one-time payment.· That's once

18· ·we're in service based upon the value of the pipe

19· ·itself.· It will be paid each year to the local taxing

20· ·bodies.· So a short-term economic impact from the

21· ·construction process, long term from taxes.

22· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· All right.· If there's no further

23· ·questions, we'll conclude.· I saw one hand fly up at

24· ·the end.· Go right ahead.· Come on up.

25· · · · · · MR. ATTAWAY:· Joseph Attaway, A-t-t-a-w-a-y,

·1· ·

· · · · · · These people are talking about buying your

·3· ·land.· We talked about environmental risk.· We talked

·4· ·about benefits the jobs will bring.· If you go to their

·5· ·website, you can actually see a listing from that

·6· ·wonderful U.S. Department of Transportation.

·7· · · · · · The pipeline has a material safety

·8· ·administration emergency response guideline that lists

·9· ·some of the chemicals that will be going through these

10· ·pipelines including benzene which is know to cause

11· ·cancer, anemia, decreased blood platelets.

12· · · · · · They mentioned ethanol, the vapors of which

13· ·can cause dizziness or asphyxiation without warning and

14· ·are heavier and can actually sink to the ground and

15· ·collect in your basement.

16· · · · · · Some chemicals that are on the contaminant

17· ·candidate list meaning that there risks that they don't

18· ·actually know what the risks are including Halon 1011,

19· ·which is a fire extinguishing fluid to be used to put

20· ·out a fire in the case of unfortunately an explosion,

21· ·which these things do happen, hexane which is a

22· ·gasoline component, methanol, a gasoline additive, and

23· ·a chemical called NDEA which is also a gas additive.

24· · · · · · And frankly they just don't know the dangers

25· ·of these chemicals, but anytime I see something that

·1· ·says cancer, today is the birthday of my cousin

·2· ·Caroline Morgan Eiser (phon).· She would have been 23.

·3· ·Unfortunately, she died at the age of 21.· She died of

·4· ·leukemia, a very aggressive form of cancer.· The

·5· ·diagnosis to death was 13 days.

·6· · · · · · So anytime you see something that's going into

·7· ·our water, into our wildlife, into our soil and plants

·8· ·and it's a cancer-causing agent that's a known

·9· ·carcinogen, we need to be extremely careful.· Now,

10· ·there are guidelines under the Federal Water Pollution

11· ·Control Act that will penalty action that will state

12· ·how much we can be paid according to a settlement from

13· ·the government if there is an accident.

14· · · · · · But my question to you gentlemen is when

15· ·someone, my child or grandchild, my niece or my nephew

16· ·comes down with cancer from a chemical pumping through

17· ·your pipeline, what can you do about it?· Thank you.

18· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· Don't run off.· Okay.· Thank

19· ·you.· I do appreciate your concern.· And what this

20· ·young man has just listed for the most part are

21· ·constituents of gasoline and we're all aware of that.

22· ·We all know that we do need to be very careful around

23· ·gasoline.

24· · · · · · You did mention methanol.· That is no longer a

25· ·constituent of gasoline.· You did mention a fire

·1· ·fighting agent, Halon, that's now banned, that

·2· ·particular one.· It worked really well so it's now

·3· ·banned and we have to use other things.

·4· · · · · · You know, I don't want to minimize -- I don't

·5· ·want to minimize risk.· This pipeline that we're

·6· ·talking about moving will move different grades of

·7· ·gasoline.· We're consuming those today.

·8· · · · · · It will move one grade of diesel.· That's

·9· ·on-road diesel, ultra low sulphur diesel, and it will

10· ·move some denatured ethanol.· Denatured ethanol is a

11· ·blend material that is blended.· It's an oxygenating

12· ·gasoline at the end-user terminals.· Right before it

13· ·goes in the truck, you go to your gas station, it's

14· ·blended in, and that is at the direction of the federal

15· ·EPA by the way.

16· · · · · · And denatured ethanol is just, it's an ethanol

17· ·that typically in the petroleum industry is denatured

18· ·by adding -- you take a hundred proof alcohol and then

19· ·you put 2 to 3 percent gasoline in it.· That's to keep

20· ·people from drinking it.· Pardon?· It sounds like a

21· ·shame, right?· I'm sorry, that's the federal EPA

22· ·mandate.

23· · · · · · So, no, I do not want to make light of what

24· ·goes through a pipeline.· This young man did mention

25· ·and referred to the Open 90 regulation which talks

·1· ·about how emergency response is to be conducted.

·2· · · · · · Our company is very committed to that.· We

·3· ·train for that.· All of our field personnel are trained

·4· ·to the 40-hour or 25-hour hazardous materials

·5· ·technician level and then every year they have an

·6· ·eight-hour refresher training on that.

·7· · · · · · So thank you.· Thank you for that concern.

·8· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· Can you just clarify one more

·9· ·thing about heavy equipment and four-wheelers possibly

10· ·going over the pipeline and harming it.· I mean were

11· ·you mentioning that a four-wheeler could do some damage

12· ·to a pipeline?· So then why can people farm over it?

13· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· Okay.· Good questions.· All

14· ·right.· Heavy equipment, the restrictions there we

15· ·talked about padding.· Typically heavy equipment cross

16· ·at 90-degree angles and minimizes the impact loading,

17· ·the impact and the loading over a pipe.

18· · · · · · Four-wheelers, pipelines don't like

19· ·four-wheelers because they typically rut, they destroy

20· ·the vegetation, and it leads to rutting.· And if you're

21· ·hilly terrain particularly, it leads to gullies and

22· ·washouts.· So that's something we don't like.· That's

23· ·one of the things that our aerial patrol looks for.

24· ·That's one of the things our guys out driving the

25· ·right-of-way routinely look for.

·1· · · · · · And our guys driving the right-of-way try to

·2· ·work with landowners to stop four-wheelers from

·3· ·running.· They've tried all manner of things.· If

·4· ·anyone has a foolproof method, please talk to me after

·5· ·this.· Let's see, you had one more question and it was

·6· ·about heavy equipment, four-wheelers?

·7· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· Well, just, you know, log

·8· ·trucks if we want to get in to log our timber.

·9· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· Right.

10· · · · · · THE AUDIENCE:· You know, how are we -- We're

11· ·going to have to pay, I mean, for every road that goes

12· ·into our property we're going to have to pay for pads

13· ·to be put down so trucks can go over the pipeline?

14· · · · · · My husband is a fertilizer dealer and his

15· ·trucks weigh, they're very heavy especially loaded.

16· ·And they're going to be going over fields potentially

17· ·if there's any farming done over the pipeline.

18· · · · · · How is he supposed to know the exact route of

19· ·the pipeline through every field and know to go at a

20· ·right angle to it.· What if it doesn't work out?· Do

21· ·you know how heavy combines are?· I mean I don't

22· ·understand how that is supposed to be accomplished.

23· · · · · · MR. WILLIAMS:· Okay.· Those are great

24· ·questions and good concerns, and I do see combines run

25· ·routinely over our line in the midwest and just

·1· ·finished one.

·2· · · · · · This gentleman just hit on a key thing.· He

·3· ·said combines ain't heavy at all or aren't heavy at

·4· ·all.· The wheel loading is not that bad.· And that's

·5· ·the key thing is how much pressure do they actually put

·6· ·on the ground as they cross.· And you can take a heavy

·7· ·vehicle as long as it has lots of wheels and low impact

·8· ·due to that, low pressure loading.

·9· · · · · · But what I'd like to do is if you have

10· ·specific concerns about the types of equipment I'd be

11· ·happy to discuss those with you afterwards and how we

12· ·routinely work those.· Okay?

13· · · · · · MR. CHALLY:· Well, we thank everybody for your

14· ·time and for coming out this evening.· That will

15· ·conclude the public comments portion of the meeting.

16· ·If you have further questions, please come up and ask

17· ·them.· Thank you.

18· · · · · · (Proceedings concluded at 6:45 p.m.)

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·1· · · · · · ·The following reporter and firm disclosures· · ·were presented by me at this proceeding for review by·2· ·counsel:

·3· · · · · · · · · · ·REPORTER DISCLOSURES

·4· · · · · · ·The following representations and disclosures· · ·are made in compliance with Georgia Law, more·5· ·specifically:· · · · · Article 10(B) of the Rules and Regulations of the·6· ·Board of Court Reporting (disclosure forms)· · · · · OCGA Section 9-11-28 (c) (disqualification of·7· ·reporter for financial interest)· · · · · OCGA Sections 15-14-37 (a) and (b) (prohibitions·8· ·against contracts on a case-by-case basis)· · · · · I am a certified reporter in the State of Georgia.·9· · · · I am an employee or independent contractor of· · ·Tiffany Alley Global Reporting and Video ("Tiffany10· ·Alley Global").· · · · · I have been assigned to make a complete and11· ·accurate record of these proceedings.· · · · · I have no relationship of interest in the matter12· ·on which I am about to report which would disqualify me· · ·from making a verbatim record or maintaining my13· ·obligation of impartiality in compliance with the Code· · ·of Professional Ethics.· I have no direct contract with14· ·any party in this action, and my compensation is· · ·determined solely by the terms of my agreement with15· ·Tiffany Alley Global.

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·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·CERTIFICATE

·2· ·STATE OF GEORGIA:· · ·COUNTY OF CHATHAM:·3· · · · · · · ·I hereby certify that the foregoing·4· ·transcript was taken down, as stated in the caption,· · ·and the colloquies, questions, and answers were reduced·5· ·to typewriting under my direction; that the transcript· · ·is a true and correct record of the evidence given upon·6· ·said proceeding.· · · · · · · I further certify that I am not a relative or·7· ·employee or attorney of any party, nor am I in· · ·financially interested in the outcome of this action.·8· · · · · · I have no relationship of interest in this· · ·matter which would disqualify me from maintaining my·9· ·obligation of impartiality in compliance with the Code· · ·of Professional Ethics.10· · · · · · I have no direct contract with any party in· · ·this action and my compensation is based solely on the11· ·terms of my agreement with my employer.· · · · · · · Nothing in the arrangements made for this12· ·proceeding impacts my absolute commitment to serve all· · ·parties as an impartial officer of the court.13· · · · · · · This the 17th day of March 2015.14

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17· · · · · · · · · · · ·Deborah K. Lingonis, RPR, CCR 2883

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·1· · · · · ·TIFFANY ALLEY GLOBAL REPORTING & VIDEO·2· · · · · · · FIRM CERTIFICATE AND DISCLOSURE·3·4· ·Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video represents that· · ·the foregoing transcript as produced by our Production·5· ·Coordinators, Georgia Certified Notaries, is a true,· · ·correct and complete transcript of the colloquies,·6· ·questions and answers as submitted by the certified· · ·court reporter in this case.· Tiffany Alley Global·7· ·further represents that the attached exhibits, if any,· · ·are a true, correct and complete copy as submitted by·8· ·the certified reporter, attorneys or witness in this case;· · ·and that the exhibits were handled and produced exclusively·9· ·through our Production Coordinators, Georgia Certified· · ·Notaries. Copies of notarized production certificates10· ·related to this proceeding are available upon request to· · ·[email protected]· · ·Tiffany Alley Global Reporting & Video is not taking this12· ·deposition under any relationship that is prohibited by· · ·OCGA 15-14-37(a)and(b).· Case-specific discounts are13· ·automatically applied to all parties, at such time as any· · ·party receives a discount. Ancillary services such as14· ·calendar and financial reports are available to all· · ·parties upon request.1516171819202122232425.

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