transcript: 3rd public hearing of the senate blue ribbon committee on the $81-m money laundering...
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COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERSAND INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)Tuesday, March 29, 2016Page 2
GUESTS/RESOURCE PERSONS:
Hon. Nestor A. Espenilla Jr. - Officer in Charge, Bangko Sentralng Pilipinas (BSP)
Atty. Emmanuel F. Dooc - Member, Anti-Money LaunderingCouncil (AMLC)
Ms. Julia Bacay-Abad - Executive Director, AMLC SecretariatMr. Eugene Manalastas - Chief Operating Officer, Philippine
Amusement and GamingCorporation (Pagcor)
Mr. Manuel Huberto B. Gaite - Commissioner, Securities andExchange Commission (SEC)
Mr. Lorenzo V. Tan - President and Chief ExecutiveOfficer, Rizal Commercial BankingCorporation (RCBC)
Atty. Ma. Celia Fernandez-Estavillo- Head, Legal and Regulatory AffairsGroup, RCBC
Mr. Raul Victor Tan - RCBCMr. Reymart A. Marbella - RCBCMr. Romualdo S. Agarrado - RCBC
Mr. Nelson V. Tan - President and CEO, BDO Unibank, Inc.Atty. Alvin Go - Chief Legal Counsel, BDO Unibank, Inc.Ms. Rebecca Torres - Chief, Compliance Office, BDO
Unibank, Inc.Atty. Reynaldo Maclang - President, Philippine National Bank (PNB)Mr. Emmanuel Gomez - Branch Manager, PNBMs. Salud Bautista - President, Philrem Service Corp.Mr. Michael Bautista - PhilremMr. Kam Sin Wong a.k.a. Kim Wong - Eastern Hawaii Leisure Company Ltd.Mr. William So Go - Centurytex Trading
Atty. Silverio Benny Tan - Corporate Secretary, Solaire Resortand CasinoAtty. Jomini Nazareno - External Counsel, Romulo Law OfficesMs. Angela Ruth S. Torres - Former Customer Relations Officer
RCBC-Jupiter BranchAtty. Rene Saguisag - Former Senator; Counsel for Ms. Maia
Santos-Deguito
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COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERSAND INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)Tuesday, March 29, 2016Page 3
SENATORS’ STAFF
Atty. Nicholai Noel Lazaro - O/S GuingonaMs. Judith Lee - O/S GuingonaMr. Dante Xenon Atienza - O/S GuingonaMs. Giselle Anne Campos - O/S GuingonaG.H. Ambat - O/S GuingonaMs. Khristine Joy E. Pulumbarit - O/S GuingonaMr. Alemar I. Mosquito - O/S RectoMr. Joseph Irvin Obenza - O/S RectoMs. Michel Palma - O/S Recto
Ms. Kristel Castronuevo - O/S RectoMs. Rikka Sotto - O/S RectoMs. Mini Dumalaog - O/S A. CayetanoMs. Liselle Lucas - O/S A. CayetanoMr. Nyl Mendoza - O/S EnrileMr. Doni Capuyan - O/S OsmeñaMs. Vina Panes - O/S OsmeñaMr. Claro Sampaga - O/S OsmeñaMs. Kathreena Tam - O/S OsmeñaMr. Arnyl Madayag - O/S Osmeña
Ms. Judith Mijares - O/S OsmeñaAtty. Alain Baguisi - O/S AngaraMs. Margie Manlunas - O/S AngaraMs. Hazel Villarba - O/S AngaraMr. Shielo Reyes - O/S AngaraAtty. Lutgardo Barbo - O/S PimentelAtty. Valery Joy Brion - O/S PimentelAtty. Maria Patricia Rebaño - O/S PimentelAtty. Dona Paula Mendiola - O/S PimentelAtty. Catherine Manahan - O/S Pimentel
Atty. Harold Ian Bartolome - O/S PimentelAtty. Daniel Solomon - O/S PimentelMr. Ryan Martin Macalatan - O/S PimentelMs. Ma. Clarissa Lopez - O/S BinayMr. Ricardo Calimag - O/S BinayAtty. Czarina Dee - O/S SottoAtty. Sheela Millera - O/S SottoAtty. Hector Villacorta - O/S SottoMs. Cecile Palines - O/S AquinoMs. Joan Narvaez - O/S EjercitoMs. Sheryl Vargas - O/S EjercitoMs. Ayn D. Nepomuceno - O/S EjercitoMr. Dominic Lacbayo - O/S Legarda
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COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERSAND INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)Tuesday, March 29, 2016Page 4
SENATE SECRETARIAT:
Atty. Agapito Rene S. Conchu - Director III, Assessment andMonitoring Service, Blue RibbonOversight Office Management(BROOM)
Atty. Sarah Lou Arriola - Director III, Investigation Service,BROOM
Ms. Josephine DG Herrera - Director II, Investigation Service,BROOM
Atty. Fritzie Jane Aduna - Staff, BROOM
Ms. Divina Gracia Ramos - - do –Ms. Remedios Amor Abagon - - do –Mr. Eustaquio Pacapac - - do –Mr. Leonardo Ramirez - - do –Ms. Anna Leah C. Catimbang - Committee StenographerMs. Maribel P. Mendoza - - do –Ms. Jeanne M. Baisa - - do –Ms. Jo B. Cadaing - - do –Ms. Rosemarie J. Ortiz - - do –Ms. Cindell B. Gealan - - do –
Ms. Helen S. Gayapa - - do –Ms. Merlene J. Palaganas - - do –Ms. Nida A. Mancol - - do –Ms. Sherill M. Villadiego - - do –Mr. Rommel P. Alger - - do –Ms. Cecilia T. Sotto - - do –Ms. Christine M. Nery - - do –Mr. Ronnie Cabañero - Legislative PageMr. Menardo T. Bago - - do –Ms. Amity Caragay - - do –
Ms. Laarni Vidal - - do –Ms. Abigael Olson - - do –Mr. Reginald Mendoza - - do –Mr. Eric Jalandoon - - do -
(For complete list, please see attached Attendance Sheet.)
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COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS ANDINVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)Aliccatimbang I-1 March 29, 2016 11:43 a.m. 1
AT 11:43 A.M., HON. TEOFISTO L. GUINGONA III,CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE, CALLED THE HEARINGTO ORDER.
THE CHAIRMAN. This hearing of the Senate Blue Ribbon is
hereby called to order.
Good morning everyone. I understand we have some new
resource persons. Let’s get through with the administrative
requirements.
But first off, let me acknowledge the presence of the Senate
Minority Floor Leader, Senator Juan Ponce Enrile--good morning, sir;
Senator Tito Sotto--good morning, sir; Senator Serge Osmeña, the
Chairman of the Committee on Banks--good morning, sir; Senator JV
Ejercito--good morning, sir; Senator Bam Aquino--good morning, sir;
Senator Koko Pimentel--good morning, sir; Senator Ralph Recto--good
morning, sir.
We have some resource persons who are new. I would like the
comsec to administer the oath. Comsec.
MR. CONCHU. Could we request all the guests who are
appearing for the first time to take their oath, please?
Please raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in this investigation?
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COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS ANDINVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)Aliccatimbang I-1 March 29, 2016 11:43 a.m. 2
Please say it. [The resource persons who took their oath are Ms.
Nepomuceno, Mr. Marbella, Mr. Agarrado, Mr. Valerio, Ms. Ratcliffe,
Mr. Wong and Ms. A. Torres. All responded in the affirmative.]
Thank you. Please take your seats.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Thank you.
We will start with the Chairman of the Committee on Banks.
Senator Osmeña, I think you have some questions.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good morning everybody. We understand that Ms. Deguito is
not here today. And that former senator Rene Saguisag would like to
make a statement on her behalf.
But can we just make it short, Mr. Senator? Would you like to
just tell us why Ms. Deguito is not here and when she will be able to
appear? Can you hear me well, Rene?
MR. SAGUISAG. Kagalang-galang na Tagapangulo at mga
kasapi ng Lupon ng Lasong Bughaw, magandang umaga po. Kahapon
po ako ay nagpahatid ng isang liham na nagsasaad kung bakit ako
nandirito, napakiusapan over the weekend ng counsel of record, Ferdie
Topacio at kasama niya, na tumayo ngayon dahil out of the country to
discharge a commitment made earlier. They are just asking kung
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COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS ANDINVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)Aliccatimbang I-1 March 29, 2016 11:43 a.m. 3
maaaring a weeklong respite and then they are ready to continue
cooperating as they have done before.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Senator.
MR. SAGUISAG. And so I need not read this dahil nakakabit na
sa ating record.
SEN. OSMEÑA. No longer but we did read it and we would like
to thank you. I think the Committee would be willing to allow Ms.
Deguito that respite. But it’s not a weeklong respite. It’s a two
weeklong respite kasi isama mo na iyong Holy Week. Our last hearing
was on March 17. So if you will guarantee that she will be here the
next hearing…
MR. SAGUISAG. Kung mapauunlakan at mapagbibigyan po
kami, we’ll be more grateful than we can say. So itutuloy po namin
ang pagtulong sa Lupon to get the facts and relevant matters. So
makakarating po iyan sa mga kasama kong manananggol na siyang
counsel of record ni Maia Deguito.
SEN. OSMEÑA. All right. I’ll leave it that to my colleagues.
THE CHAIRMAN. I think we could grant that so that after next
week then we can expect Ms. Deguito to appear.
Okay. Our next hearing is Tuesday, next week.
MR. SAGUISAG. Maraming salamat po.
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COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS ANDINVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)Aliccatimbang I-1 March 29, 2016 11:43 a.m. 5
brought up again the fact that the Bank Secrecy Law protects the
integrity of the individual accounts. Correct?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes, there are several laws,
Your Honor, that cover the deposits.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Yes. Name those laws.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. The General Banking Act, we
have the AMLA Act, there’s the Bank Secrecy Law and the FCDU Law.
There are four laws, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Now, that’s for an account owned by a person,
right? We understand that RCBC already has found out that those five
accounts including Picache’s don’t exist. Those persons don’t exist. So,
therefore, there is nothing to protect. There is nobody to protect.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Your Honor, we have actually
consulted with our external counsel and the advice is, the wording of
the Bank Secrecy Law covers the deposit itself. So even if the account
holder, for example, would be fictitious, first, there has to be a court
order determining that. But even if, the bank secrecy still applies to
the deposits. We are very cooperative. We would like to discuss the
details. And we are actually sharing what information we have with
the AMLC and the BSP. But we are unable to discuss details of specific
deposits and accounts unless there is a…
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COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS ANDINVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)MPMENDOZA II-1 March 29, 2016 11:53 a.m. 1
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. …There are specific cases, Your
Honor.
SEN. OSMEÑA. All right. So in this specific case, if we go into
executive session, you will be able to share those things with the
Committee?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor. We still have
our obligation in executive session.
SEN. OSMEÑA. So what’s the plus in going to executive session
for the Committee? Because we have to be transparent with the public
and all our hearings are open to the public.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes, Your Honor. Your Honor,
we have done our best to be transparent to the extent that the law
allows us. But especially in cases of dollar accounts, only the written
consent of the depositor will allow us to divulge the information. We
are mindful of this … obligation.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Now, who is the depositor in this specific case?
Would the depositor be—who?
You want the consent of the depositor, the depositor does not
exist so whose consent do we get?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Your Honor, even if we would
like to—we see the loophole in the law and we hope that with this
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hearing, you will be able to address that loophole because we really
are unable to divulge despite the absurd situation.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Since these funds we agree were stolen from
the Bank of Bangladesh, would you not consider Bangladesh bank the
depositor?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Your Honor, no. Under the law
that would not be the case and I don’t think that there is definitive
proof that would allow us.
SEN. OSMEÑA. So, therefore, you’re saying, Atty. Macel, if I
steal your money and I deposit it in an account, no one can look into
that account to determine whether it was Macel’s money or not? As to
amount, the date it was deposited, wala.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. If it’s a peso account, Your
Honor, and there is a court case with respect to that amount, we can
discuss it in court.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Ano’ng court case? Wala pang court case;
investigation lang.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. But in Senate hearing, sir, on
investigation the law does not allow us to speak about these deposits.
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COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS ANDINVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)MPMENDOZA II-1 March 29, 2016 11:53 a.m. 4
SEN. OSMEÑA. Teka muna. Pag hindi natuloy—if the notice
from New York had arrived earlier and the funds were not remitted out
of Jupiter into somebody else’s account, wouldn’t you, the bank, have
had the obligation to stop payment?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. If there is a freeze order from a
court, Your Honor, yes.
SEN. OSMEÑA. No. Without a freeze order, don’t you use your
judgment and stop payment at any point?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. In general, Your Honor, if it’s a
request for freeze, the best that banks could do under the current laws
would be to allow the parties, the person questioning the sending of
the funds and the account holder to speak. But the bank itself does
not have the right that it has under a freeze order. So we cannot
return the funds unilaterally in that case. That is what the law allows
us. We really just operate that way, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Hindi. Ano ang gagawin ng bangko, bangko
ninyo, dumating iyong hold order, you got a notice from the Bank of
Bangladesh, you got a notice from the Federal Reserve Bank of New
York? You know, I’d like to inform the body that we hacked a US
bank, not we, but the hackers hacked a US bank that is why it is now
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federal crime and that’s why there has been bigger hullabaloo because
tinamaan ang New York.
So we would like to know from you what would you have done if
you had ample notice?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. If we have ample notice, in any
case, the only rights that are given to us would be to file an STR, a
suspicious transaction report, and—
SEN. OSMEÑA. Pero itutuloy ninyo iyong remittance?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. We can hold it for a period.
SEN. OSMEÑA. No, no, no. Tell me what you would do, don’t
tell me what you can do.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Under the law, we have not
been given any right to retain the funds, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEÑA. I am afraid many bankers would disagree with
you but I guess you’re arguing from your point of view.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor. It would be—
SEN. OSMEÑA. Ako ang bangko, somebody stole money from
Senator Bam’s account, say, one million pesos, then Bam tells me,
“That’s my money, can you stop payment? Do not make it go any
further.” If I were the bank, I would be obligated to stop payment. I
may not give the money back to Bam until he proves it’s his.
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MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes.
SEN. OSMEÑA. But definitely, I would stop payment.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. I understand the logic, Your
Honor. But unfortunately, the laws do not reflect the rights that you
are explaining. It would be—for example, if a supplier sold a tractor to
a buyer and—
SEN. OSMEÑA. If you have proof that there is legal transaction,
of course, you’ve got reason.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. …If there is proof—
SEN. OSMEÑA. But if there is no legal transaction—I stole
Bam’s money and I was just transferring the money to somebody else
and I don’t have any legal transaction with that somebody, there is no
trade, there is no payment for services…
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes.
SEN. OSMEÑA. …you would have to question me first, “Teka
muna.”
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes. Then we would slow down
on the processing.
SEN. OSMEÑA. In the meantime you would have to stop
payment, right?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes.
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SEN. OSMEÑA. Okay.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. We would slow down on the
processing and make the parties speak. But may I finish my example?
SEN. OSMEÑA. But you will stop payment?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. We would slow down.
SEN. OSMEÑA. No. Don’t tell me slow down because I don’t
know what slow down …
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Effectively, it would have the
same effect.
SEN. OSMEÑA. …either this goes through or this does not go
through. Isang pindot lang iyan.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Effectively, it would have the
same effect, Your Honor. But may I just go back to my example. If I
sold the tractor—
SEN. OSMEÑA. It will not have the same effect and you’re not
being very candid with the Committee.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. I am very candid, Your Honor,
on this.
SEN. OSMEÑA. So what do you mean, you can stop it? You will
stop it, don’t you?
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MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. For a temporary period only,
Your Honor, just to allow the parties to speak.
SEN. OSMEÑA. I don’t care if it’s temporary or permanent. But
you will stop it until you can do some confirmation?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEÑA. You won’t?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. The laws do not allow us that
right. And I would like to finish my example.
SEN. OSMEÑA. I have talked to several bankers, top bankers,
and they said, “Yes, they would exercise their discretion and stop it.”
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Your Honor, perhaps you would
like to speak with others in this hearing but that is not our reading of
the law. And if I may just finish. If I sold a tractor to someone and
there is a payment order—
SEN. OSMEÑA. So RCBC is different?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor. All banks have
the same obligations and rights under the same laws.
SEN. OSMEÑA. But I did ask those banks. And they would stop.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Then—
SEN. OSMEÑA. Teka muna, ninakaw iyong pera. It’s the
discretion of the bank president or whoever to stop.
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MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEÑA. So what is the use of the compliance situation?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. That is why, Your Honor, it
would be good to amend the law to give more teeth to the banks.
SEN. OSMEÑA. You’re blaming us now.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, sir, I am not.
Even the regulators do not have that authority, Your Honor. I
wish that it would be the case because it would make our jobs easier
and it would not put us in a position where there is logic in what you’re
saying and we cannot follow.
SEN. OSMEÑA. So you are telling the whole world that, “Send
your money to the Philippines because we cannot stop the transmittal.”
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor. I am not—
SEN. OSMEÑA. It will go straight to the casino or to the
remittance company—to the casino.
All right. Now, I would like to ask also another question or go
off on a related to that. Every bank has a threshold amount by which it
is warned to examine the incoming deposit because it’s very
suspicious, right? In past hearings, wala kayong threshold account
amount.
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MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Sir, if—actually that would be
the subject of our request for executive session. If that’s the
procedure, our operations head is here and he can discuss the details.
SEN. OSMEÑA. No. This is nothing secret. I mean, you either
have a threshold amount or you don’t and you have already—
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. We have a threshold amount.
Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEÑA. What is the threshold amount?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. At that time, sir, it was ₱1
billion.
SEN. OSMEÑA. One billion pesos?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Or roughly $20 million?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. More or less.
SEN. OSMEÑA. More or less. So if it was less than that, you
don’t go up to higher ups?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Even with the threshold, Your
Honor, there is no requirement to elevate it to senior management. It
is still at the settlement’s department.
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SEN. OSMEÑA. That’s very interesting. So $20 million, you
don’t elevate it to senior management. Let me—I want Mr. … Tan to
respond to my question.
Mr. Tan, continuing my line of questioning of Atty. Fernandez. At
what amount would you have been forewarned—should you have been
forewarned or alerted by your officers?
MR. L. TAN. As Atty. Fernandez mentioned, Your Honor, we
have a one billion threshold. …/mpm
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COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS ANDINVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)JmBaisa III-1 March 29, 2016 12:03 p.m. 1
MR. L. TAN. …one billion threshold.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Pesos?
MR. L. TAN. Yes. And most CEOs don’t hear anymore about
these remittances. Like in the case of RCBC, we probably had 50
remittances of one billion or more the past three years and we don’t
hear about these remittances, you know, because most of the time we
are either in meetings or out of the country. We only hear about it
when there is a problem.
SEN. OSMEÑA. And like in this case, you didn’t hear about it,
so now you have a problem.
MR. L. TAN. Well, I found out when it became an issue.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Answer my question, you didn’t hear about it
and this became a problem. I thought compliance rules meant for you
to be adequately forewarned.
MR. L. TAN. No, sir. They raised the issue to me, but after the
funds had left already.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Yeah. But if you had gotten the issue raised
before the funds had left.
MR. L. TAN. I will still rely on the inputs from our Compliance
and our Legal Department on what we can do, sir.
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SEN. OSMEÑA. That doesn’t answer my question. What would
you do, you will pass the decision to them?
MR. L. TAN. Well, we always base our decision, sir, based on
what we can do under the law and our existing policies.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Well, Atty. Fernandez just said that you would
not stop it because you are not allowed to stop it under the law.
MR. L. TAN. That’s right, sir.
SEN. OSMEÑA. All right. Would you have picked up the phone
and call the Central Bank governor instead and said, “I’ve got a
problem”?
MR. L. TAN. Well, under bank secrecy, our obligation, sir, is to
file the appropriate STR report and let the AMLC deal with the—
SEN. OSMEÑA. That means a few days delay. Like in this case,
it took you several days to file the suspicious transaction report.
MR. L. TAN. Under AMLC policy, sir, you are given 10 days to
submit the STR report and under regulation—
SEN. OSMEÑA. That’s right. And by that time, the money is
long gone as we saw.
MR. L. TAN. Yes, that’s the—
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SEN. OSMEÑA. But I would like to know, based on the
practices of RCBC, at what point would you have been alarmed—at
what point would your officers have had to go up to the CEO and say,
“Boss, I think you really have to take a look at this”? What would that
amount be?
MR. L. TAN. Well, it’s probably when instincts kick in, sir. I
don’t think it’s the amount. They go to us for a business decision from
time to time, but—
SEN. OSMEÑA. In this case, Mr. Tan, you have four accounts—
dormant accounts, absolutely no economic activities: $6 million, $20
million, $25 million, $30 million, totaling $81 million, and they did not
go to you and say, “Chief, these four accounts, all dormant, suddenly
received this P1 billion average each.”
MR. L. TAN. No, sir, they did not go to me because—
SEN. OSMEÑA. Okay. Should they have gone to you?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No.
MR. L. TAN. Well, we have existing—
SEN. OSMEÑA. Ms. Macel.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Sorry.
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MR. L. TAN. We have existing policies on controls, Your Honor,
and as CEO, you assume that their responsibilities are being done.
SEN. OSMEÑA. All right. Now, supposing $100 million each
had been deposited into the account, they would have not gone to
you?
MR. L. TAN. I think in that case, they would have gone to me.
I mean, it’s like the difference between lending a 50-million clean loan
versus a billion clean loan. Instincts come in.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Ayan, so mayroon kang threshold amount. I
am trying to determine what’s the threshold amount, you said it’s
about $22 million. And so, if you had 100 anonymous fake accounts
and they each received $22 million or less, it doesn’t come to the
CEO’s attention?
MR. L. TAN. That’s why in my opinion, Your Honor, thresholds
can only give you protection at a certain point because people will find
out what your threshold is and then they will remit below that. I
mean, that happened when we started filtering OFW remittances. The
limit was 10,000, so some people were remitting 9,000, you know, 10
times or 40 times.
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SEN. OSMEÑA. That’s right. But we are not talking about
$10,000 here.
MR. L. TAN. I think what will really catch dirty money would be
having intelligent systems in your bank, like what you have in global
banks today. I mean, even if you have modern software, you still
need instincts to kick in—your compliance people, your operations
people, your sales people—they all have to use their judgment.
SEN. OSMEÑA. You know, if all the other banks have threshold
amounts of $1 million, $2.5 million, maximum of $5 million, yours is at
$22 million, you are way out of line vis-à-vis your other peers from the
banking community.
MR. L. TAN. Your Honor, I think it depends on the size of your
bank. You know, our total assets as of yearend was P530 billion, so I
think one billion was a reasonable amount at that time. Now, because
of this experience—
SEN. OSMEÑA. Mr. Tan, the banks I talked to were all much
bigger than RCBC and they all have threshold amounts of that—one
million, 2.5 million.
MR. L. TAN. Well, again, Your Honor, it’s a balancing act. If
you lower the amount, commerce will be affected because some of
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these remittances are meant to pay certain obligations. Like if you are
dealing with the capital market—
SEN. OSMEÑA. Only for RCBC? I mean, you were president of
the Bankers Association of the Philippines for two years, so surely you
knew exactly what the other banks also were doing, what their
thresholds...
MR. L. TAN. Unfortunatley, Your Honor, we don’t share notes
on thresholds and things like that. But some banks have similar
systems—
SEN. OSMEÑA. Would have the AMLA compliance been one of
your concerns as president of the Bankers Association of the
Philippines?
MR. L. TAN. Yes, sir. And I think RCBC was compliant with
AMLA policies. I think what happened here is some judgment error
from the people on the ground. I think if you look at our systems, we
have been applying six sigma principles in our processes. We have
foreign consultants that look at every process of the bank and we have
16 products that we sell to every consumer and every corporation.
Remittance is just one of 16, Your Honor. I mean, banks have a
thousand processes. If you decide to change the whole kitchen of a
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bank, you have to go through 1,000 processes, and this is one of
them. I think what happened here is we had the IT controls, the
human controls. But unfortunately, it failed in the end, in the
execution.
SEN. OSMEÑA. And it would fail again because, as Atty.
Fernandez responded, she would not have stopped the transaction
from going through.
MR. L. TAN. We had made changes to our present system to
prevent this from happening again. And if you ask my opinion, Your
Honor—I mean, it can happen again. The Philippine banks have to
upgrade to cognitive systems. We have to look at our employee
behavior—what time they go in, what time they go out, what they do
outside. We have to look at transaction behavior. Only computers can
do that because if you have a bank and you envision to have 20
million, 40 million customers times “x” number of transactions per
second, there is no way you can have human intervention along the
way. You must combine the people and IT.
SEN. OSMEÑA. But the other banks have human intervention.
MR. L. TAN. Well, Your Honor, it’s like a Formula 1 race, right?
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SEN. OSMEÑA. Not as a standard, but at a certain level, they
have human intervention. Like I said, the threshold amounts are $1
million. Now, since these banks are 10 times bigger than RCBC. Their
volume is much, much bigger.
MR. L. TAN. It’s a balancing cost-efficiency and speed, Your
Honor. I mean, in our business, you have to balance cost-efficiency,
speed and control, right? I mean, the global banks, they were hit with
Bernie Madoff—Four years, they were in the books of the largest US
bank, right?
SEN. OSMEÑA. Yes.
MR. L. TAN. Nick Leeson brought down a hundred-year old
institution because of poor controls. This happens because—it’s just
like racing a Formula 1 race, you either invest in a Ferrari or McLaren
and have the best driver to drive it. You need both. We have six
levels of training program. And yes, we are sorry this happened, but,
you know, it’s human error, human judgment or intentional.
SEN. OSMEÑA. We are trying to determine—That’s precisely
we appreciate your comments and the Committee is trying to
determine whether human judgment was indeed the main culprit…
/jmb
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SEN. OSMEÑA. …main culprit in this case or the compliance
rules of RCBC severely lacking. But tell me something.
Again, may dumating na $100 million, one account, no
justification, no legal, no trade, no services. Wouldn’t that get up to
you?
MR. L. TAN. Well, if the systems are working, I mean, given
our present system—
SEN. OSMEÑA. Well, we assume that they are working…
MR. L. TAN. Yes, someone—
SEN. OSMEÑA. Would it have reached you?
MR. L. TAN. Give me a chance, Your Honor. Someone should
really go down there and ask—
SEN. OSMEÑA. Not “should.” I want to ask you: Would it have
reached your level?
MR. L. TAN. It depends, Your Honor. If it’s a multinational
company with, you know, that reasonable level of business volume, I
don’t think it will reach me. But if it was a—
SEN. OSMEÑA. Now, if it’s a multinational company and this is
in the normal process—I’m Shell Corporation, I have an RCBC account,
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I normally have transactions, the hundreds of millions of dollars a
month, of course, it’s going to be not.
But here, I’m talking about a specific situation where it’s an
inactive or dormant account. It’s that $500 in deposit, it suddenly
receives $100 million.
MR. L. TAN. Well, a perfectly working internal control system, I
would hope it really does not need to go to a CEO. The control should
kick in—
SEN. OSMEÑA. No, you’re speaking in hypothetical terms. I’m
asking you if $100 million had been deposited to the account of, I give
you one name, Lagrosas, would you have been alerted under your
current process?
MR. L. TAN. No, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEÑA. You would not.
MR. L. TAN. Yes.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Two hundred million dollars, would you have
been alerted?
MR. L. TAN. Well, again, if the people feel—
SEN. OSMEÑA. No, not “if.” Would you have been alerted
under the circumstances?
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MR. L. TAN. There’s no policy written that it needs to go to me.
SEN. OSMEÑA. No, I’m not talking about you. You’re talking
about judgment, you’re talking about having trained your people to
use their judgment. Correct because a lot of these are judgment calls.
So I’m asking you what would their judgment be? May dumating
$200 million, isang account $500 ang deposit, dormant. Wouldn’t I
run up to my boss and say, “Boss, what do I do with this?”
MR. L. TAN. Well, I’m hoping that, you know, the compliance
people and—
SEN. OSMEÑA. No. Would they have come up to you or not?
Don’t hope.
MR. L. TAN. I would think that the group head and the
compliance people should be able to solve that problem.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Themselves?
MR. L. TAN. Yes, sir.
SEN. OSMEÑA. All right. If the amount were $400 million?
MR. L. TAN. Well, again, if it’s extraordinary or unusual,
probably they will—
SEN. OSMEÑA. How extraordinary can that be? How
extraordinary do you want it to be?
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MR. L. TAN. It’s really based on experience, Your Honor. I
mean, you know—
SEN. OSMEÑA. Yes, and so? Let’s be more specific. We’re not
sophisticated bankers so we’d like to know what would be that warning
sign that would alert your people to tell you that something fantastic is
happening?
MR. L. TAN. If it’s beyond reason or, you know, beyond the
ordinary course of the—
SEN. OSMEÑA. Would you consider $400 million within reason
or beyond reason?
MR. L. TAN. Your Honor, we just raised $400 million last year,
right? And since it’s going to RCBC, I don’t think the banks would
question something like that.
So, you know, if it’s to a “Mr. Juan Dela Cruz” who’s a salaried
employee, I think it would raise alarm bells in the bank.
SEN. OSMEÑA. I’m talking about a dormant account with
US$500 suddenly receiving $400 million.
MR. L. TAN. Well, the appropriate procedures would kick in,
Your Honor. You know, the STR report and things like that—
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SEN. OSMEÑA. Yes, I know. But you’re always talking
hypothetically. I’d like you to tell me, would $400 million have alerted
your boys to tell you, “Take a look at this because—”
MR. L. TAN. I think eventually they will inform me. But I don’t
think, you know—
SEN. OSMEÑA. Eventually?
MR. L. TAN. Yes. I don’t think they’ll have to inform me the
same day.
SEN. OSMEÑA. If it were $800 million?
MR. L. TAN. I think 800 is really out of whack, you know.
SEN. OSMEÑA. You mean, it’s impossible.
MR. L. TAN. Well, no. I mean, of course, it will ring major
alarm bells, right?
SEN. OSMEÑA. And you would be informed?
MR. L. TAN. I think at the end of the day, they will inform me.
SEN. OSMEÑA. At the end of what day?
MR. L. TAN. At the end of the day when the remittance came
in.
SEN. OSMEÑA. So if the remittance came in at eight o’clock in
the morning, you’ll only find out at night.
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MR. L. TAN. Based on our present system, yes, sir.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Oh my! Well, at this point, Mr. Chair, with your
permission, perhaps you’d like to—
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, yes. We have here a table. Will you
hold this please?
As we all know, the amounts involved was $950 million, okay.
Eighty-one million dollars went through the system, went to RCBC.
And another $20 million was the subject of a stop order by the Federal
Reserve on its way to Sri Lanka. We’re talking about 35 payment
instructions totaling $951 million.
Now, five payment instructions went through. This one covers
the 30 payment instructions that did not go through. What is notable
here is that all payment instructions were created on the same day,
February 5, 2016. What time? All 30 payment instructions totaling
$850 million were created in two seconds—12 midnight and 51
seconds (12:00:51) to—12 midnight, 51 minutes and 51 seconds
(12:51:51), 12 midnight, 51 minutes to 52 seconds (12:51:52). Two
seconds, $850 million payment instructions were created.
Now, it’s all stated here that the beneficiary bank or the bank to
which the payment instructions were to be sent, the $850 million, all
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of it, is in the name of RCBC. All of it, $850 million. And then from
RCBC, the $850 million would have gone to the five fictitious
accounts—Ralph Picache, Michael Cruz, Jessie Lagrosas, Alfred Vergara
and Enrico Vasquez. Five fictitious accounts, each having $30 million
payment instructions, $30 or $20 million. And then after that,
another five names, the same names. So it goes round and round by
succession. Iniikot-ikot lang, succeeding names.
So that is what we see and that is what would have happened if
the Federal Reserve Bank of New York honored the payment
instructions. Luckily, because of their diligence, they did stop these
30 payment orders.
In fact, the Federal Reserve sent a Telex or as message to the
Bank of Bangladesh and they were asking the following information:
No. 1, they say, “We would greatly appreciate if you could provide us
with more information on these transactions, specifically please
provide the following: No. 1, full information of the beneficiaries—
Alfred Vergara, Jessie Christopher Lagrosas, Michael Cruz, Enrico
Velasquez, Ralph Picache.” Then they go on and said, “Please include
their occupation, connection to the originating party which is the Bank
of Bangladesh, and the website reference, if possible.
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Then No.2, “What is the professional relationship, if any,
between the five individual beneficiaries;” Then, No. 3, “Full details of
the underlying goods or services covered by these payments.” I
suppose… /jbc
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THE CHAIRMAN. …I supposed—they supposed that these were
for the purchase of goods or services. So they were asking details.
And number four, which is very intriguing, why are these payments
that represent repayment of institutional loans being made to these
individual beneficiaries. So, in other words, they were wondering why a
central bank is dealing with individual beneficiaries. As we all know,
central banks do not deal with individuals. So what is remarkable here
is that had it gone through, it would have all—850 million or 951
million minus the 20 million for Sri Lanka would have all gone to RCBC
and then into the accounts of the fictitious persons. That would be
the line of reasoning that Senator Osmeña was trying to cull.
Senator Osmeña.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Mr. Tan.
MR. L. TAN. I think in that case, Your Honor, it will elicit a
different reaction from the people below.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Different reaction—what reaction would that be?
MR. L. TAN. Well, because the amount is so outrageous. I
mean, it’s like a credit card that averages a thousand dollars a month
then all of sudden it’s charging a hundred thousand. You know, it will
be a different reaction from the team.
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SEN. OSMEÑA. That’s right, Mr. Tan, as a matter of fact. This
was a credit card that didn’t even average a thousand dollars a month,
it averaged zero a month. So that’s why the Committee wanted to
learn from you what would have triggered a stop payment on the part
of RCBC and I guess you are saying that it would only have come up to
all in all $950 million. Pag dumating doon, mag-i-stop ka na ng
payment?
MR. L. TAN. No, Your Honor. You know, even in the 81, we
had hold orders that were implemented right--
SEN. OSMEÑA. Which 81? You mean, the original deposits?
MR. L. TAN. Yes.
SEN. OSMEÑA. You had hold orders?
MR. L. TAN. Yes.
SEN. OSMEÑA. But you see the money went through. And
we’re trying to find out when will you act to stop the payment. And,
obviously, you said, “Well, $81 million, it’s up to my lower guys to
determine whether it should come up to me.” But at $850 million, it
will definitely be brought to your attention. And you are not telling
the Committee whether you would have executed a stop payment or if
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you would have allowed the $850 million to go through because the
law does not allow you to stop the payment. We would like to know.
Would you like to respond, Mr. Tan?
MR. L. TAN. Well, you know, I’d like to discuss details of what
happened in that specific transaction, Your Honor, but again because
of bank secrecy, we cannot disclose--
SEN. OSMEÑA. No, we are not talking about a specific
transaction any longer, Mr. Chairman, because these amounts did not
go through. They were held by New York, US$850 million all supposed
to have been transmitted to RCBC. In the same manner that the first
four accounts were from New York. Kaya tinatanong ho ng Committee
kailan ba kayo mag-a-aksyon? When will you take action under your
internal rules?
MR. L. TAN. Those transactions were subjected to the end of
day review, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEÑA. End of day?
MR. L. TAN. Yes.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Kapag dumating ng 8:00 o’clock in the
morning, itutuloy ng branch manager mo iyan and the money would
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have been long gone—long gone, goodbye before it comes to you at
the end of the day. That’s very poor compliance.
MR. L. TAN. There is a person from head office that looks at
end of day transactions, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Kaya nga tinatanong ko, if you wait till the end
of day, the money would have been remitted already. That’s exactly
what happened in this case. Ms. Deguito got the notice around 10:50—
11:20--11:30—11:40—11:50 tinuloy iyong—and sent it to Philrem.
MR. L. TAN. There are supposed to be two controls. One is
money arrives at the branch, the branch manager’s job is to do their
KYC procedures and policies. Then at the end of the day, at the
settlements department, someone looks at the summary of
transactions then they start noticing big transactions like this one.
SEN. OSMEÑA. “Uy mali, get it back.” There was an order from
AMLC pero it was too late. How much will be freeze there, $60,000?
Please do not nod your head; you’ll have to speak into the mike,
Ms. Abad.
MS. ABAD. Your Honor, just around—as far as the four account
holders are concerned, just around US$68,000.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Three thousand dollars?
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MS. ABAD. Sixty-eight thousand…
SEN. OSMEÑA. Sixty-eight thousand dollars?
MS. ABAD. …dollars were left for those four accounts.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Tingnan mo, you froze it. You froze a $68,000
but you wouldn’t freeze $81 million, that’s what you are telling us.
Yes.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Your Honor, actually that was
a judgment call that we made notwithstanding the limitations that we
had under the law. We decided to just return the funds.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Kayo naman, oo.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. It’s true, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEÑA. You won’t stop 81 million but you are so proud
that you stopped the $68,000.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Your Honor, as we explained,
when a request for freeze came in and I believe I explained it relative
to the William Go accounts last time, we sent notice to the branch to at
least find out what is what about, to find out more. It wasn’t a freeze
order from a court. And, unfortunately, within 30 minutes, the branch
manager implemented the deposits to the William Go account. So
that’s really what happened, Your Honor.
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SEN. OSMEÑA. Yes, that’s why what I was asking
hypothetically, if you had learned and you had been alerted of this,
would you have put a stop to it? Even if it’s a temporary stop for one,
two days until you can validate.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Kasi if you had done your homework, you put
a stop to this, siguro in less than two hours you will find out that those
four accounts were fake.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes. Your Honor, in that case,
it would be elevated to me and, probably, I would have made a
judgment call to stop it despite the possibility of being sued by the
account holders. It would have been elevated to me and I would have
made that judgment call.
SEN. OSMEÑA. We are recommending to Mr. Tan to appoint
you as executive vice president in charge of compliance.
In any case, Mr. Chairman, we would like to inform the
Committee that we received this information from the Bank of
Bangladesh through the kind efforts of Ambassador Gomes. And if we
have an official transmittal letter from Mr. Badrul Haque Khan, General
Manager of the Accounts and Budgeting Department, Bangladesh Bank
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(Central Bank of Bangladesh). And they verified that they sent us this
list with the amounts involved, the names, the date, the account
numbers. I would like to submit this to the Committee for its records.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. At this point, we would like to
acknowledge the presence of the ambassador of the People’s Republic
of Bangladesh, His Excellency John Gomes, good morning, sir. Good
morning, Your Excellency. Thank you.
Okay. Let us now go to Mr. Kim Wong.
Mr. Kim Wong, paki--
MR. WONG. Your Honor, pwede ba po ako magbigay ng
opening statement ko?
THE CHAIRMAN. Oo, sige. Hindi naman siguro masyadong
mahaba, ano?
MR. WONG. Hindi naman po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Kasi mas gusto namin iyong ikwento
mo iyong kung ano ang nangyari. Pero please proceed, go ahead.
MR. WONG. Thank you po.
Ako po si Kam Sin Wong. Kim Wong po ang tinawag sa akin ng
mga kaibigan ko po. Fifteen years ago, naimbestigahan na din ako ng
Senado. Pero hindi po ako ang Kim Wong…/rjo
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MR. WONG. …ang Kim Wong na nili-link sa drugs. Sa
katunayan, hindi po ako nakasuhan at wala din po negative findings
ang Senado sa akin po.
Nandito po ako para sabihin ang aking nalalaman sa issue na
money laundering na iniimbestigahan ng inyong Committee.
Marami pong akusasyon laban sa akin at sa maraming
malalaking tao, nandito ako para sabihin ang totoo at sabihin ang
aking nalalaman.
Itong negosyo namin sa casino, mayroon po kaming rules.
Kailangan magsabi ng totoo kahit anumang mangyari.
Una, wala akong kinalaman sa pagpeke ng bank documents para
pumasok ng pera sa bansa. Hindi ko alam ang pinagmulan ng $81
million.
Pangalawa, dalawang foreigners ang nagpasok ng $81 million,
isa sa kanila ay matagal nang labas pasok sa Pilipinas at kilalang
junket agent at high roller. Para makatulong sa mga imbestigador,
ilalagay ko sa isang sealed envelope ang kanilang pangalan at kopya
ng passport at isa-submit ko sa Committee.
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Pangtatlo, si Maia ang nagpeke ng sinasabing limang bank
accounts. Isang foreigner lang po ang ni-refer ko kay Maia. Mayroon
po akong pangalan at litrato po.
Pang-apat, si Maia at Philrem ang gumawa ng lahat ng paraan
para mailabas ang pera sa bangko.
Panglima, noong lumabas ang freeze order, tinigil ang paglaro ng
mga players sa Midas at Solaire. Sa aking pagkakaalam, may
natitirang more or less P40 million sa Midas, more or less 100 million
po sa Solaire. Four point six three million dollars nakalagay sa isang
junket sa Solaire, at more or less $70 million ay hindi nakarating sa
casino at sa mga foreign players.
Pang-anim, sa kabuang $81 million na sinasabing ipinasok sa
RCBC, more or less $63 million ang pumasok sa Solaire at Midas
Casino. Ang balanse, more or less $17 million sa pagkakaalam ko po
ay na kay Philrem.
Maraming salamat po. Handa po akong sagutin ang inyong mga
katanungan.
THE CHAIRMAN. Sandali po. Sinabi mong 70, one-seven
million dollars?
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MR. WONG. One-seven po. Seventeen po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Nasa Philrem?
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Mr. Kim Wong, punta muna tayo sa
ano, iyong pagbukas ng accounts. Pakikuwento naman saan nangyari
ito at kailan nangyari?
MR. WONG. Palagi po akong kinukulit ni Maia para mag-open
ng account sa RCBC dahil wala naman po akong negosyo sa RCBC.
So isang araw nakita ko siya, nagkita kami, sabi ko, “O kung
gusto mo, mayroon akong player may utang sa akin gustong
magbukas ng account.”
So more or less may—hindi ko ho alam, dumating iyong player
ng 10, siguro 11 or 12 ng May 2015 pumunta ho si Maia sa office ko sa
Midas po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Si Maia pumunta sa office n’yo?
MR. WONG. Opo. Apat po sila, iyong tatlo po nasa labas. Ako
po at saka iyong junket ko po ay nasa loob ng office.
THE CHAIRMAN. So sa loob ng kuwarto tatlo lang kayo?
MR. WONG. Opo. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Ikaw, si Ms. Maia Deguito at saka iyong—
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MR. WONG. Junket ko po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Iyong junket operator?
MR. WONG. Opo, iyong sinasabi ko pong naka-seal po, nasa
envelope iyong passport.
THE CHAIRMAN. In the sealed envelope.
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Bago noon, by the way, I’d like to
inform everyone in the Committee that Bloomberry has submitted a
report—is Bloomberry around? Yes—Submitted a report to the
Committee and I’m instructing the Comsec to reproduce the copies
with the request of Bloomberry to keep the identities confidential.
MR. S. TAN. Your Honor, our request is to keep the
confidentiality of the junket operator. We believe the Committee
should expose the name of the--well, Ding Zhize, the guy who brought
in the funds and the 18 players who played the non-negotiable chips
that were purchased out of the funds that we received from Philrem,
Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay, then.
Pinangalanan iyong pangalan, do you confirm sino ba itong mga
ito?
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MR. WONG. Ito po iyong malaking junket operator po.
THE CHAIRMAN. So sino iyong kasama mo sa kwarto na
kasama ni Maia?
MR. WONG. Iyong sana ipapangalan ko po “John,” kung puwede
po?
THE CHAIRMAN. O sige, for now John para matuloy yung
kuwento. Sige, pakikuwento anong nangyari?
SEN. ENRILE. Sandali lang.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Bakit hindi mo masabi ang pangalan noong
junket operator? Bakit kailangang ilagay mo sa envelope at naka-seal
at ibibigay mo sa Committee?
MR. WONG. Ay sasabihin ko po kung iyon ang request n’yo po.
SEN. ENRILE. Aba’y kailangan…
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. …sapagkat bakit—
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Pakisabi na lang para matapos na.
MR. WONG. Opo, sir.
SEN. ENRILE. Sandali lang, ano. Sandali lang.
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Mayroon bang nagsabi sa iyo na kailangan ilagay mo sa sealed
envelope iyong mga pangalan?
MR. WONG. Opo, kasi po—
SEN. ENRILE. Sino ang nagsabi?
MR. WONG. May kausap po ako na mga maghahanap po sa
mga tao na ito, ang gobyerno po natin sa Pilipinas sana maitago para
mahanap po nila. Pero kung gusto ninyong sabihin ko, sasabihin ko
po.
SEN. ENRILE. Dapat sinabi mo doon sa immigration na huwag
ninyong palabasin itong mga taong ito kung nandito.
Nandito ba iyong mga tao?
MR. WONG. Supposed to be po dapat hindi po nakalabas kasi
po noong March 7 po sinabi ko sa abogado ko po kausapin ang AMLC,
kumbaga makatulong kami. Noong wala namang response ang AMLC
so iyong Solaire, March 10, hinuli niya lahat ng tao. Lahat ng kuwarto,
lahat ng pera’t chip hinuli ho nila kaya lang wala naman po kaming
magawa kaya nakaalis ho lahat.
THE CHAIRMAN. O sige, sige. Teka muna. Teka muna, let’s
put things back in perspective. Umpisa tayo doon sa pagbukas ng
account, doon muna tayo. Doon muna tayo.
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MR. WONG. Hindi po, gusto niya po buksan o hindi?
THE CHAIRMAN. Hindi, sabihin mo na. Sabihin mo na.
Iyon nga, sasabihin mo kung sino iyong kasama mo doon sa
kuwarto. Sabihin mo na.
SEN. ENRILE. Sabihin mo. Sabihin mo na sa publiko para
malaman kung sino iyong mga tao na iyan. Kailangan na malaman
kung sino ang central personality.
MR. WONG. Shuhua Gao.
SEN. ENRILE. Huh? Ano?
THE CHAIRMAN. Shuhua Gao?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Sua Gao?
MR. WONG. Shuhua Gao. Ito po iyong passport niya po,
puwede ko ho ibigay ho sa inyo.
SEN. ENRILE. Isulat mo. Isulat mo.
SEN. SOTTO. Mr. Chairman, may we have the Sergeant-at-
Arms to get a copy of the—
SEN. ENRILE. Alam mo hindi ako nakakabasa—
SEN. OSMEÑA. Mr. Chair.
THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Osmeña…/cbg
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THE CHAIRMAN. ...Senator Osmeña.
SEN. OSMEÑA. I think, for the record, the family name should
be the one that we use. Iyong family name niya Gao, hindi ba?
MR. WONG. Gao, opo, opo.
SEN. OSMEÑA. G-A-O.
MR. WONG. A-O.
SEN. OSMEÑA. Okay. Thank you.
MR. WONG. G-A-O po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Gao. Okay.
SEN. ENRILE. Sino si Shuhua Gao?
MR. WONG. Sir, matagal na po ito nag--junket agent ko po,
almost eight years na po.
SEN. ENRILE. Kilala mo siya, huh?
MR. WONG. Kilalang-kilala ko po. Matagal na pong nag-o-
operate sa—
SEN. ENRILE. Sandali lang, unti-untiin natin.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Kilala mo siya?
MR. WONG. Kilala ko po.
SEN. ENRILE. Ayon. Taga-saan siya?
MR. WONG. Taga-China po.
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SEN. ENRILE. Saan sa China?
MR. WONG. Sa Beijing po.
SEN. ENRILE. Beijing?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Han?
MR. WONG. Ano po?
SEN. ENRILE. Han, H-A-N? Han siya? Ang ethnic niya Han?
MR. WONG. Ano ho iyon?
SEN. ENRILE. Pabayaan mo na. O sige.
THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Minority Floor Leader, let us allow him to
make his story first.
SEN. ENRILE. Taga-Beijing, huh?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Kailan unang pumasok sa Pilipinas iyan?
MR. WONG. I think 2007 po. Labas pasok po ito.
SEN. ENRILE. May record sa Immigration?
MR. WONG. Opo. At eto po puwede po itanong po sa Solaire
nakapaglaro na po ito ng--natalo po ito ng 450 million po.
SEN. ENRILE. Naglalaro sa casino ito?
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MR. WONG. Opo. May record po sa Solaire po, puwede hong
tanungin. Natalo po ito ng 450 million po kaya po siya may utang sa
akin.
SEN. ENRILE. Two hundred fifty million pesos?
MR. WONG. Four hundred fifty million pesos po.
SEN. ENRILE. Four hundred fifty.
MR. WONG. Four hundred fifty po.
SEN. ENRILE. Sa isang gabi?
MR. WONG. Hindi po. Actually naglaro siya po one week. Nasa
record po ng Solaire nanalo ng 250 tapos napakiusapan kong maglaro
tapos natalo ng 250 na natalo pa ulit siya ng 450. Kaya umutang ako
sa Solaire, sabi ko, “Bigyan ninyo naman po ng credit, gustong
maglaro.” So, binigyan naman ako ng credit ng Solaire na 450 million
po.
SEN. ENRILE. Kailan iyon?
MR. WONG. I think 2000--early 2000 o late 2014 po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Senate Minority Floor Leader, can we just
let him finish first and then--
SEN. ENRILE. Yes, I will reserve my right to question--
MR. WONG. Opo.
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THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, all senators will have the right to
question.
O sige, ako naman facilitator lang, ano?
So, anong nangyari? Sino ang nandoon sa opisina?
MR. WONG. Eto po, si Mr. Gao.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. So, tatlo kayo?
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Anong nangyari?
MR. WONG. Sabi ni Mr. Gao kay Maia magbukas po ng account,
sabi ko, “Refer kita.” Gusto ni Mr. Gao na dollar. So, sabi po ni Maia
kailangan corporation, corporate ba. Kasi hindi pa ho ...
THE CHAIRMAN. Corporation.
MR. WONG. Kulang ang mga tao ko po. So, hindi ko
masyadong maintindihan. So, sabi ni Maia kailangan limang tao para
gumawa ng isang company para magbukas po ng account.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Tuloy mo.
MR. WONG. So, sabi ni Gao, “Bakit ang hirap yata magbukas
ng account?” So, sabi ni Maia, “Ako na ang bahala.” Tapos ay
nagmamadali din po ako umalis. So, sabi niya po siya na ang bahala.
Pagkatapos po--
THE CHAIRMAN. Sige, ituloy mo.
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MR. WONG. Hindi ko po masyadong matandaan, two to three
days tumawag siya, ang sabi niya, “Kailangan ng $2,500.” So, sabi
ko po, “Sandali, tatanungin ko muna kay Mr. Gao.” So, sabi niya,
“Ipadala na lang.” So, sabi ni Mr. Gao ipadala. So, pinadala 2,500 po
kay Maia. Iyon po ang nangyari.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
MR. WONG. Opo. Iyong sinasabi niya po na limang tao ko
noong sa Senate hearing, nadinig ko po, hindi po totoo iyon.
THE CHAIRMAN. Na may ibang tao, kayong tatlo lang?
MR. WONG. Wala naman po akong ... sinabi niya limang tao,
hindi po totoo iyon.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. So, ano pa ang nangyari after that?
MR. WONG. Wala na po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Wala na.
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Doon tayo sa February 5. May
nangyari ba sa iyo tungkol sa mga nangyari dito sa money laundering?
MR. WONG. February 4 ho--
THE CHAIRMAN. February 4. Okay.
MR. WONG. Opo. Dumating po si Mr. Gao, sabi niya iyong
mag-i-invest sila sa Pilipinas kasi ang hirap ng casino sa Macau at
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isasara nila iyong kompanya para madala, mag-invest dito sa junket sa
Manila. So, sabi ko, “Sige, sino ba ito?” Ang sabi niya, “Matagal na
itong kaibigan, si Ding.” Si Mr. Ding po. Iyong sinasabi niya po siya
po iyong nag-receive ng one point three million six hundred fifty.
THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ding. Sino si Mr. Ding?
MR. WONG. Ding Zhize.
THE CHAIRMAN. Ding Zhize.
MR. WONG. Iyong sinasabi po ni--
THE CHAIRMAN. Ano ang nationality ni Ding Zhize.
MR. WONG. Macau po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Macau. Okay. Sige, tuloy mo para matapos
mo na ang lahat ng gusto mong sabihin, ikuwento mo lahat and then
we will ask questions.
Sige, tuloy.
MR. WONG. So, sabi ko, “Sino nga ito?” Sabi niya, “Sigurado
mag-i-invest dito.” “O sige,” sabi ko, “Tingnan natin kung...” Ang sabi
niya may papasok silang malaking pera. Ang sabi ko, “Tingnan natin.
Pag may pera dumating--“Iyon ang casino rules namin.” Pag may pera
po, iyon ang totoong salita. Iyong mga sabi-sabi lang, hindi ho kami
naniniwala doon. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
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MR. WONG. Next day dahil nagmamadali ako--so, next day,
morning, ang sabi niya, “Magkita tayo sa Solaire.” Sabi ko, “Sige po.”
THE CHAIRMAN. Sino ang nagsabi sa iyo magkita kayo? Sige.
MR. WONG. Dalawa po sila.
THE CHAIRMAN. Si?
MR. WONG. Si Ding po at saka si Gao.
THE CHAIRMAN. Si Ding at saka si Gao. Okay.
MR. WONG. Oo kasi sabi niya po may darating na pera. O sige,
ang sabi ko, “Sige.” Tawag po ako kay Maia, ang sabi niya, “Wala po.”
Di wala. Ang sabi ko sa kanila, sabi niya, “Tawag ka pa,” sabi noong
dalawa. Sige, tawag ulit ako. Ang sabi ni Maia ang kulit ko. Ang sabi
ko, “Ang kulit nitong dalawa.” Tapos tawag na naman ulit ako. Mga
ilang tawag po, wala po.
THE CHAIRMAN. February 4 ito?
MR. WONG. February 5 ho, morning po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Ah, February 5 na.
MR. WONG. February 5 po, morning po. Tapos dumating ho
ang almost one something--
THE CHAIRMAN. In the afternoon.
MR. WONG. Opo. Tumawag sa akin si Maia, “O, may dumating
$6 million.” Sabi ko, “Okay.” Sabi ko sa kanilang dalawa may
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dumating ho $6 million. O, sabi ko, “Maia, kung may dumating $6
million, ipadala mo na lahat sa Solaire.” Ang sabi niya, “Sige.” Tapos
tumawag ulit siya, “O, may dumating pa, 25.” “O, ‘di sige, ipadala mo.
Kung puwede, ipadala mo sa Solaire.” O, tumawag ulit, “O, may 30
pa, may 20 pa.”
THE CHAIRMAN. Lahat ito million?
MR. WONG. Opo. So, ibig sabihin lahat ho iyon, iyon ang 81
million po. Ang sabi niya, “Huwag mo na akong kulitin...”
THE CHAIRMAN. Dollars ito, ano?
MR. WONG. Opo. “Huwag mo na akong kulitin basta may
darating sa Solaire.” Sabi ko po, “Kung puwede naman po makikiusap
ako na sabi nitong player sana kung iyan mapadala mo sa Solaire at
may cash.” So, ang sabi niya gagawan niya ng paraan po. So, sabi
niya antayin na lang. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Tuloy pa. Ano pa ang nangyari?
MR. WONG. Dumating na lang mga 6:30--
THE CHAIRMAN. --6:30?
MR. WONG. --6 to 6:30 ng gabi. Sabi sa akin ng--
THE CHAIRMAN. Of February 5? 6:30 ng gabi sa February 5
ito?
MR. WONG. Opo.
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THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
MR. WONG. Sabi po sa akin ng Solaire, “O, boss, may
dumating na doon sa player mo kay Ding Zhize.” Ang sabi niya
Philrem ang nagpadala.
THE CHAIRMAN. Sino po?
MR. WONG. Philrem ang money changer.
THE CHAIRMAN. Philrem. Okay.
MR. WONG. Ang sabi ko, “Sino ba iyon?” Tapos dumating po si
Mr. Concon po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Sino si Mr. Concon?
MR. WONG. Concon Bautista po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Ah, iyon, Concon Bautista.
Ikaw iyon.
Okay.
MR. WONG. Dumating po siya, sabi niya--
THE CHAIRMAN. Anong oras itong dumating?
MR. WONG. Magse-seven siguro po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Magse-seven ng gabi na.
MR. WONG. --6:30, ganoon po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Sa Solaire?
MR. WONG. Opo.
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THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
MR. WONG. Sabi niya, napakiusapan siya ni Maia na tulungan.
Sabi niya, “Hindi dapat ako makialam diyan.” Si Maia ang nagkulit na
pakiusapan siya. So, sabi ko, “Thank you po.” So, sabi ni Concon,
iyong pinapo-produce ni Maia na pera na-produce niya P80 million po,
dala niya po.
THE CHAIRMAN. One-eight o eight-zero?
MR. WONG. Eight-zero million pesos po.../hsg
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MR. WONG. Eight-zero million pesos po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Eighty million pesos po.
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
SEN. SOTTO. Dinala niya?
THE CHAIRMAN. Dala niya?
MR. WONG. Opo, ng tao niya.
THE CHAIRMAN. Cash, dala niya.
MR. WONG. Yes po. Tapos sabi niya, iyong kakulangan na 20
million, dadalhin ni Maia.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
MR. WONG. Twenty million pesos po.
So dumating si Maia po—
THE CHAIRMAN. Mga anong oras dumating?
MR. WONG. Iyong base po sa record po ng Solaire, iyong
sasakyan niya po vinaley (valet) po is 7:57:35 seconds. Ito po iyong
sa Solaire po, sasakyan po ni Maia po. [Mr. Wong shows a picture.]
THE CHAIRMAN. Ayun. So may CCTV snapshot.
MR. WONG. Opo. Mayroon pa pong iba pa.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay, So 7:57, halos mag 8 o’clock na rin?
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MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
MR. WONG. Hindi, vinaley ho (valet). Ibig sabihin mas maaga
siyang dumating kasi kinuha pa ito.
THE CHAIRMAN. Kinuha, okay.
MR. WONG. Bale ho pagbaba.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay, sige.
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay, ituloy ninyo po.
MR. WONG. Tapos po, sabi ho ni Concon, itong 100 million
dapat may receive iyan. Syempre, ‘di ba po? So ibinigay ko po iyon
kay Weikang Xu na password po. Iyong Weikang Xu na sinasabi
ninyong—
THE CHAIRMAN. Teka, sabi mo 100 million.
MR. WONG. Opo, in peso po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Bakit naging 100 na?
MR. WONG. ‘Di ba 80 plus 20 po, 80 million plus 20 million?
THE CHAIRMAN. Sinong nagdala noong 20?
VOICES. Si Maia.
MR. WONG. Si Maia po.
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THE CHAIRMAN. Pinapaklaro ko lang. So okay.
SEN. ENRILE. Cash iyon?
THE CHAIRMAN. Cash iyon, Mr. Kim?
MR. WONG. Cash po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
MR. WONG. Mayroon pong patunay iyan, itong cash na
pagdating po dahil nagmamadali iyong player ko, sila Ding, si Gao,
tsinek-in (check-in) ko. Kasi mayroon po kaming rules na usapan.
Basta lahat ng pera pumasok dito, ang usapan dito lahat lalaruin sa
casino.
Kasi ang casino po, kami, mayroon kaming gentlemen
agreement. So ito dineposit (deposit) ko po, mayroon pong picture na
February 5, 8:07, inakyat ko po sa isang junket, 100 million. At pwede
po i-check sa Solaire.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. You are showing us a picture of—
MR. WONG. Tinanggap po iyong 100 million, patunay iyan.
THE CHAIRMAN. Na tinanggap iyong 100 million sa Solaire?
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Iyong picture na iyan, galing sa
Solaire din? Iyong ipinakita mo, galing sa Solaire iyan?
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MR. WONG. Mahirap hong sabihin. Pero ito ang patunay.
THE CHAIRMAN. Hindi. Saan kinuha iyon?
MR. WONG. Pati oras po, may oras po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
MR. WONG. May date ho, February 5.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay, sige. Ituloy mo.
SEN. ENRILE. Sinong kumuha noong picture?
MR. WONG. Ako po.
SEN. ENRILE. Ikaw?
MR. WONG. Ako po.
SEN. ENRILE. Marunong ka talaga.
THE CHAIRMAN. Sige, ituloy ninyo po.
MR. WONG. Opo. Nai-deposit sa junket na po tapos kumain
kami.
THE CHAIRMAN. Sino kayong kumain?
MR. WONG. Kami ni Concon pa at saka si Maia.
THE CHAIRMAN. Si Maia, si Concon at ikaw, kumain?
MR. WONG. Oo. Sa Korean restaurant po, sa Kiwa.
THE CHAIRMAN. Kiwa.
MR. WONG. Opo.
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THE CHAIRMAN. Korean restaurant, sa Solaire din iyon?
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
MR. WONG. Tapos po, February 9, ako po ang kumuha sa
bahay ni Concon ng 100 million—cash—pesos.
THE CHAIRMAN. February 9?
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. One hundred million pesos cash.
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Sa bahay nino?
MR. WONG. Ni Concon po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Concon Bautista ng Philrem?
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
MR. WONG. At three million dollars po.
THE CHAIRMAN. So 100 million pesos and three million
dollars?
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. All in cash?
MR. WONG. Opo.
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THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
MR. WONG. February 10, kumuha po ako ng two million
dollars sa bahay niya.
SEN. SOTTO. Dollars?
THE CHAIRMAN. Iyong two million, ano iyon, dollars?
MR. WONG. Two million dollars po at saka 100 million pesos,
February 10.
THE CHAIRMAN. One hundred million pesos?
MR. WONG. Opo. February 14 po, kumuha ako ulit ng isang
100 million. So total po, 400 million—100 million sa Solaire, 300
million sa bahay niya at saka five million US dollars cash.
THE CHAIRMAN. So 400 million cash?
MR. WONG. Hindi. Iyong 100 dineliver (deliver) sa Solaire;
300 million, kinuha ko po sa bahay niya—
THE CHAIRMAN. On three dates, anong date iyon?
MR. WONG. --9, 10, 14.
THE CHAIRMAN. --9, 10 and 14.
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
MR. WONG. At saka five million dollars ho, cash.
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THE CHAIRMAN. Five million. Tapos anong breakdown ng
five million? Kailan mo kinuha iyong—sabi mo may three, may two,
ganoon ba iyon?
MR. WONG. Oho. Isang February 9, three million; February
10, two million dollars po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
MR. WONG. Ito pong umpisa ito, itong dollars po, kasi iyong
300 million na kinuha ko, nai-deposit sa junket. Itong dollars po,
gustong kunin nitong mga junkets—si Gao at saka si Ding—medyo
doon nag-away na ho kami kasi po ang gentlemen agreement, walang
kukuning cash. So wala ho sa rules. So noong kinuha, kaya naging
4.63 million iyong natira ko sa isang junket po, iyong nasabi ko, dahil
nag-aaway na po kami. Kinuha niya 370,000 so nagagalit na ako kasi
wala hong usapang kukuning cash.
Kasi itong negosyo namin, usapan lang, tiwala. Sabi ko, “Niloloko
ninyo ako.” Sabi ko, “Talunin ninyo muna lahat ng pera na nasa
Solaire, saka ninyo na lang kunin ito.” So kaya naiwan po iyan—4.63
million dollars po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
SEN. SOTTO. Naiwan saan?
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THE CHAIRMAN. Naiwan saan?
MR. WONG. Sa isang junket po sa Solaire, naka-safekeeping po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Hanggang ngayon, nandiyan pa?
MR. WONG. Nandiyan po. Kung gusto ninyo—sabi ko nga,
gusto ko ngang dalhin dito. Payo lang sa akin ng abugado (?) ko
masama po iyon.
SEN. SOTTO. Mr. Chair, ano lang—just to inform the public
the public ano.
THE CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.
SEN. SOTTO. Marami ang nagtatanong, ano ba iyong junket
operator? Ano iyong junket player? At ano iyong junket na binabanggit
mo? Ano iyon? Paki-esplika ngang mabuti.
MR. WONG. Opo. Ang junket operator po, katulad ko, sa
Cagayan Economic Zone po, Eastern Hawaii Leisure Company Resort
with a casino license. Ang junket operator po, ibig sabihin, kailangan
sa iyo ang dealer, sa iyo ang fare—lahat ng junket operators, ibig
sabihin, kailangan foreigner. Hindi ho pwede ang local na tao, hindi
pwede po maglaro. Bawal po. Lahat po kailangan manifest.
SEN. SOTTO. “Money first”?
MR. WONG. Opo.
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