tramps: arresting dallas police

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COMMIHSION EXHIBIT No. 13aA-C ont inued

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COMMI8810N EXHIBIT No. t:Jfi8-Continued

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CoMMIIISION ExmnJT No. 1358-Cont lnuod ·

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dDD, ' · U. n a . u14r -put • f , .u .tultc• O h h l .

COMMIBSION EXHIBIT No. 1368-Continued



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69

PU:S

IOEilT

Sco:\li

IISS

ION

ON THE

ASS: SSIN: TI GN OF P 1 ~ ' S D . E N r ; . KENNEDY

Dnll[.S , rexrsfhursc r y, .p r i l 9, 196411:30 .M.

The Presi cnt s Crnrunission met, u r s u ~ n to

rece6 s, ~ t 11:30 ~ m i n the office of t he U. S.

_ t torney , 301 Po s t office Bui l d ing, Bry8n r nd Ervcy

f t r e e ~ s Dallas , Texrs .

PRESENT :

Dnvi d Bel i n, St : Counsel

Helen Lridrich, Repor Le r



I Cl () c E . .) T N r: c·

',, 1:

"- -

.• ;l. ]3..:;1, :{:.

1 1 you ~ nl l1i :· tsc y em,,

" ' ' 1 ~ 1 : : ; 1 1 "

3 h: n · · ~ · Do you solei,ln1y ~ ; · : e : · · ~ o t e l l Lhe: t ,·u,:h. hn

4 ~ h o l e t ~ u [ h rnC nothing buc the .PULh. so helD you

5

6 I do.

7

8 r.J"fl • Y( 'U •• J'lC • · ; '·" r•t l r- (. ' .::J ·- - ' . _. -·- ' you

9

s tc··1 i·IR. H. TCN.SSS: D. V. IL l lmess, i 1 . 1 ~ s ')Ol icc

11

12 B:SUN:

13

14 MR. BELIN: Is th;, l in D: lL s',

15 l·IR. lLTJlESS: Yes. s i r .

16

17 DDll:.s ?o icc D e u r r t m c n ~18 >IR. IL T::NESS: : " e r ; c ; e ~ n of •)o] ice .

19 ~ H . B::<:LIN: Ilo ·: long h: vc you been 1•:il:h ~ h e2

21 i·El.. I F ~ C : : : : N . G S S : Li t t l e over 17 yc:·rs.

:. R. BBLIN: H•.)l'.' I)Jr: : . re yuu, s i r "

23

24 ;.m. W ~ L I N : Dtc: you go to ;_;clwoJ l w ~ · e in D: 11:

25



Re: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENTJOHN FITZGERALD KENNEDY,

NOVEMBER 22, 1963, DALLAS, TEXAS

C a l l e r

61 Patrolmen G. W. TEMPLE and

R. E. VAUGHN

Conversat ion

We have informat ion from the

agent out he re a t T P. Said

t ha t the t r a in i s s topped on

the overpass , the t r i p l e over -

pass ; t ha t t he re was a person

jumping a t the n in th boxcarfrom the f ron t ·engine. Said

he i s h id ing in a ca r .

Dispa tcher (HULSE and M DANIEL) I s the t r a i n stopped t he re now?

61 (TEMPLE and VAUGHN I m in behind the Texas School

Depos i tory . He has the t r a i n

s topped . He sa id it i s the

n in th ca r from the engine .

Gondola-type ca r ; sa id he i s

hunkered down ins ide .

Dispa tcher (HULSE and MCDANIEL) Any squad Elm and Houston

392 Criminal Inves t iga t ion

Divis ion)392 Criminal n v e ~ t i g a t i o nDivis ion)

Dispa tcher (HULSE and MC DANIEL) 392 Criminal Inves t iga t ion

Divis ion) , did you r ece ive t h a t

informat ion?

392Criminal

Inves t iga t ion

Divis ion) 10-4 . En rou te .

Dispa tcher (HULSE and MC DANIEL) 10-4.

241 Patrolman J P HOLLINGS

WORTH

361 Criminal Inves t iga t ion

Divis ion)

- 94 -

241 (HOLLINGSWORTH) en rou t e .

361 Criminal In v e s t i g a t i o n

Divis ion) en route .



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y: u

·. n .:

r l l( _ _ - - .

I i ( 1.1 I . 1 (' '·- . ·.. I h y

<.I'III

Then c.itc: you :.roun< tho b ~ c ' ; :

fhei1 V/h t j _ ( ~ you ~ o · )

I l :ent b:cl: ~ o L . h : f r o n ~ . : n•.

to 0'(:' t' '

t lw

to s owe f ~ · e i g - h l :

le<:vins cu: of ~ h e F .,· '·o r oD

f · e· 1· rrh1·L : . ~ ._, c2rs t h r t ~ e r e l c ~ v i n g the y: ··

. 1 le _ ' \· ·e (''Cl;· : 1. Oll f - · e1 ' 'h'· ·- . - t-. - b 1. . \ ..:. :

I'<>' in the·,·e, n( \Ye IJUllec' some peo; Jle of f of there

:.nn took :;hem ,:o the sl:: ~ i o n .

;·.rrL IL i ..: . LC:SS: T r ~ HlDS : ncl hoboes.

HR. I t ' ;_:·:tmss: Yes I s i :r.

~ f f i . B ~ L I N ?hen ~ h ~ t ~ i d you ( ~ o ?

T h ~ t wrs 211 my : :ss: ignmcnt, be-



83

1 le.vin :; , to my l ~ n o \ ? ct ge. in a l l the: rrer1 t-here.

2 • ·e h" 1.. seve :,f' 1 off icers w o - ~ ' c i n g in L he- t r e ~ .

3 i•IR . B.ZLIN : Do you knor: whe cher or not . nyone

4 f ounr1 ny suS ) i c i ous peoole of r ny kind or nr. cure

6 ; J11 . H.'.1 CNESS : Yes, s i r . \1e nmc e some rrrest:s,

7 I ryut some neonle in .

s H::l . BELIN : \1 e,,e t hese v: h" t you c ~ 11 hoboes or

9 r n n s •J

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H/ 1 1 \ N E ~ S Yer:, s i r .

l·lR . BELIN : :ere :::;11 h o s e c•ueEtioner1?

1·IR . rlr'.1IiliESS : Yec:;, s i r they \ :ere t ~ k e n to

che s ~ t i o n n d ouest ioned .

MR . BELIN : t. ny guns of r.ny lrinr1 founc ?

ff i . H: 1KNESS : Not to my l::: n owlec ge .

MR . BELIN: I v ~ n t to go bL ck to t h i s mos

.E'uin,? . Do you remembe1.· w h ~ t he snid to you " nd wh• t

you s ~ i to him ~ h e n you f i r s t s ~ w him?

MlL l . ~ u ~ E S S I we n c i n ch :: c crowd up h e r en c ~

: t.

he r rer· t he n · rs l ~ e d

d icl r nyone see ny

1l , ce where t he shots c ome from, . nc t here WPS nuni ·ent i f i ed nerson pointed to h im, s r id t his b oy

here s ~ : i t , saw t he s hots whe :;,e t he s h o s c :...me from.

L n he to ld me i t wns .·

f IR . BELIN: Then ... b j i ci he s::-r?



I• ~ T )• ~ - - I . •

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9 ~ m . B2LIN: 88cn t l 1 e ~ c e v e ~ s ~ n c e ?10 EvC?r since.

11

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13 BELIN: : ~ n l · 1 rr ~ 1 1 1 ~ '>_ . J. ... t > ,.

14 r , J C ) 0 ~ ' V l ' c l ' n u ihe Lrrff ic o f f i c a ~ s,\ , . . .L - - , - . . ) ~

IS from : L i.n nc' Fi.c

_~ l o n e ; ~ h e D: c·;r e

· · o u ~ eto ;m r r·

16 Hous on.

17 B ~ L I N : '.,'he;·e we::-e you : l'OUJY- 12:30 p.m. '

18:.JR. Il' 1:1ESS: . t M:-in ~ n c : Houston.

19:•1R. B2LIN: Cn the e ~ s t or w e ~ - s i ~ e of H ust

20:11. I-l'RI:li.2SS: ·:es. s ide of Houscon.

21 B E ~ I N : Di<:' you wrcch :he m o t o r c ~ t i e come

22

23.JR. R .1;:_i'IZ,SS: Yes, s i r .

24i·IR. B ~ L I N : , h e ~ · e •;:ere you •dwn you h e ~ - rc' the

25shn s ?



·r: i c: i ' i c h73

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a . ' - 1 • • '1:. c ( ,1_( you ~ o : f t e r you

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3 :.m. IF·l:·:NESS: ·.:hen I ~ ; Z \ 1 the f i r ; t s h o ~ ~ n c

14

IS

6 · o you m e ~ n by th::-t')

17 :.m. H:: I''.NE:i)S: ',.hen I h e : : - . ~ · ( Lhe f i r s t shot :·nd

8 s: .. ; the Jresiclent 's c:··,· :.lmost come to , stop ;,.nd some

19 of ~ l l 2 . ~ c n i : s 9i1.tng of f che c : r . I '.'.'Gnt brcli: ~ o the

20 i n L c ~ s o c ~ i o n to gee y motorcycle.

21 :rl. BZLIN: You were in the Jrocess of c:oing

22 th: · t \'.'hen you he:.rri the s e c o n c ~ : :w t h i rd sho t?

23

24 :.m. B.EL N: .he,·e cij.c1 the shol.s sounc li.l;e they

25



I; .

- .. .. •

T C OU l · l ' c

3 :- ..... l l\ .. 1..- -'- L •

5 Yes

6

7 I ··:en:

8 ch

9

1 Dy ~ h e · . : ~ : y th,, ) C O ) l e . '.'.llcn I

v:cn t i_n to c: h s ···e: hi_' t'• i l l '110 (F' 'Olll1'• A t ; ... ., '

12 :11. scmcr:n-c let ' u::; ~ o . n • i c ~ . c , c th:. th s h o ~ s . : c - . _ ~ e

4 :-EL K ~ L I N You me: n f:·om soiile p(J i.nt in f ~ · o n ; :

IS o f Llw

16 y co. .

17 l -lR. DEL IN: i)o you ~ - n o 1 · : who ~ h • 1 : someone Y . ~ s 7 ·

18 No, s i r .

19 ~ - I T t . B ~ ~ L I ? ~ :

21 I don t rcwcmbcr.

22 ; m B:SL IN:

23 I • cnt t o·:·n to I n c u s ~ r i : . l ~ o sec

24 i f I cou1cl see ::nyone flcci.ng : : h ~ t ; c·

25 .h; C ir yrm see·.·



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c:o chts fence

E2LIN:

H' S. BELIN:

B:SLIN:

~ : h ~ : t ( o you n 1 c ~ · n c ' ~ o s s - ~ h e s ~ L - - e e ~

C i _u -· l th ts ·,.·tghc hc:l C.

' 'r> · l l . .. . c:::: - v; n- ....... -' -J ......,, ' ·- ::::..

·c•.c-, .-- \...- .

You r . J O i n ~ l_ng o { pl::-ce b c . ; ~ v . r e e n

1 : : o u ~ - ~ ~be the ex tens ion of :i:lii1

~ h : - ~ < O C ~ _ : n ' tp·-

i·l1. Ii _1ICN:2;SS: Yes, to the D l ~ z ~ ~ r e ~ .

Y e ~ s i r

.. h:: i: ic; you fin: · t he re?

I founc : l i t t l e colored boy,

i:lco; ~ ; ; u i n . ¢ s who tolr: me he s:Y·; the shoes come fl Om

NcY ; you j u s t rJi c::t c out o l E t l e



7

2 Yes str

3

4 Is c -he o Pi · i n' ' 1..._ _ _ - _ . l • · noc: i i. on l h= y u m: .- c?

5

6

7 :· El

8

10 Y o ~ ~ , : :: ir I curncc

11 f.ffi. B SLIN:

12 -_ > .s _

14 on he kcl .: of my 3 •.·:heei l l l O ~ o r c y c l e : n : m ~ hi m in

16 MJ BELIN: Nov ycu Jacn ionc·· t h ~ you :out s or:1e

17 h ~ s18 Defore

19

21

22 :.1 1.. BELIN:

23 c \\ i h r. n o ~ r -t ton t 2 : 3 G 9 Hl. , 26 J to 53 J • 531

/ 24

25



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h:

.n I h: ve hiJ,l y:i. t.h me n Y.·.· : n. ·::c · C :C'C: l inc>;

\ ) T)-·:1 71-._T •l 1 o l ;_· .I • ..l. i o

1 ~ 1 · · · - - ~ i ) C r · ·--')• ·

,_ - __ < 1 I, t .

. _ J. . lr::.v 1:.:,

Yes, s i r .

the bl1t, in;>:

r· . ' ._: c 12 :3C ' ) :J. •·

off

T11 . 10 D1 ' 0 C C " 0 c:·o··· l . 1 1 ~ o-Ff ·hr.-'"- L- l \_ . . : :Ju i.___l "-''--- '· --- t·, . . .1.__.

you ·o·.·C{ .,.,1>. ~ _ ~ . . ~ ~ f - - I -· · 0 - ( ~ . i t A J

f · - - ~ - y ~ i . F Y e :. -ttly--sr. u; .. : .

- 0 ' 1 0 1g_ l ~ . ~ - . -·- l )

18 co h· ve ;he b ~ c k r y ~ t se: lee' off'?

19 ·rhe scu:J wrs r r iv ing by the

20 t:i.•,Je I o ~ of f my mo'cm·cycle. There W8S r l r e r d y

21 :c'(:tcion;·l_ squrC:s enroute .

22 MR. BELIN: How soon r f t e r 12:36 r:;.m., would yo

D s :y ~ h e but l ing wrs se r l ed of f?

24 I t w ~ : s s e ~ l ~ ~ of f then b c : c ~ _ u s e25 I .:: s b; he,·c n:.' c·:;o · oche·.· •.1211.



1 1) l} .,

3 Yes, s t r .

4

5

6 T n i ) C · 01.__ : \.... '-' -- n . -\ ()

8 pc T l ·;_)_-...J '_I - • J. , • By the ~ t m o you ~ 0 ~ : o u n o Lho

9 f c 'Clh l oJ the buil. ' ing

1 Yes, s t r , by c.-he ~ i n 1 e I 1ut

11 ~ h e ~ i ~ n c s ~ tn hi_s c: I . :ent 'UJ.\c' l cely ~ 0 ::he

12 Jy c':.

13

14 seruencG. you f i r s ~ ~ e n t to ~ h e brcl: of ~ h e b u t l ~ i _ n ~

16 ?·To, s i r .

17 Y·Ju l:e11 me r : h ~ h: n:1enec' ~ h e n .18 I

19 - - ; , ~ n : : · · : : : - n ~ to Jose th?_s r : t ~ n e s s .20 1 ] r i .ght .

21 So I took hi1n ~ o the c r ~ .22 :r1. B ~ T _ J I N : To 1nspect:or 2 ~ v y e r s e r r ?

23

24 ,,., s i ighi: in f• on c.

25



I

2

4 B ~ ; _ I _ I f :

6 .;he c: ,.r;

7

8 11···;c ',_, - \....

9 the :c

10 >11 BELIN:

I I

12..,

P • : ' io t r : . f f icn c .

13 J IL e on how 1om:

14 BELIN:

ISJ,·l.' ' ' ' · 1n C l l I ' i ]-' L '- _ ·'- ·

T . :--- .on ..

'jc you c: U

c hcn wh:: t i / y·Ju c'o''

. .:r s he: vy : · t L . i_Jile , ·n:

you hr: ,: l:o . , ; i -- c .. 0 o·e t:: ...... in .

,·· l l v ~ i .h-. -- - <·:. ....

in :· ny even c , r f ce • you

.: ' i• you 0 on ohC c : •.'io?

16 c f ~ e r you got the m:.n in che c : · : · ~

17

18

19

2

21

22

23

24

25

· . e l l - -

>lR. BELIN: The witness in the c: r, whet i ~you · ~ · · _ o

St ryed : t the b: ck o f t he bui lc ' -

tng unt i l I wrs rel ieved by s q u ~ .

;.m. BELIN:

: h2 b - l , . 1u _ .'. i.' J l g

So you then went to che brck of

Yes.



c · : ~ i ~ you see him there?

l·lR . IL rCN ESS : Yer, s i l .

3 '·P:L B'SLIN : rs he : : t h i s c< :?

4 MB . H. 1:.:NJSS : Yer-, s i r , he w•s by his c r :

5 ne r his c r .

6 ; m . BELIN: Do you len ow whe t her or not he hr r

7 gone i nsi <:e Lhe bui...lc'ing ye t?

8 ~ · I ~ 1 ~ C N I : S S No, s i r .

9

MR . B E L I ~You

m c ~ nyou l'on ' L know':'

1 L H/ T ~ N Z S S : Don't kl10\' ' v:he che r he l r c1 gone in

11 or not . ,' c tur.l ly , he s s t ~ n i ng here in f ront

12 t rk i ng inform:tion . Al l t he i n f o ~ ~ t ion wrs bcjng

funneled to Inspec to r ~ r ~ y e r4 MR . B.SLIN : Die you t e l l h im you hr cl witness

15 r r.t . H. l ~ E S S Yes, ~ i r

16 BEL IN: In his c :. r?

17 . IL R.::N:ESS : Yes, s i r .

18 MR . BELIN : t t h ~ : t t ime, h ~ c ~ che bu i l(:ing been

19 se r led off yet when you told h im h r ~ ?2 MR . JL) l 1CNESS : .' t t hn t time?

21 BELIN : \;he n you to ld Inspector Snwyer hr.t

you hr c r wit ness t h2 t sn id t he shot c r me from t he

3 bu i ld ing. uu to thr.r. p r r t icu lr .r moJ lent, hrd the f ront

24 9 ~ r t of t he bui ld ing been se r led off yet?

25 Yes, s i r .\ -



lr: i_ c· ~ ' l _ C i : 1' .

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

c:. u; ;c 1

'r--, 'T ~ ~ . r .J. l L J ~ ~ ~ •

11 - , - , . , _ r ~ - , ( _ ~ ., .\. • lit n J ,,J •

nn B 7 ~ L I N :

I o n ' ~ : n O \ \ .

1·1:1. B ~ ~ L TN:

]\in. n· -,-,-i'-' 1;->(1C< . NC.·· s ir , 1 on ' ' Lnow C:h:· t be-- . . _ _ 1 ~ . - - · J ~ ) , . _ ) c ,

t ( n ' rro U} : nc' t : : . 1 ~ < : ;_:o :.:hen .

ou of che bu: L ~ i.ng

No. I w ~ s i n t e ~ c s ~ c in g e ~ t i n g··oun• cO the b<·ck of chc buill . ing cO lil: l :C fUre i .v \ ' . ' ~ . S

:.n. B:6LIN:

Jlluny i s ~ h ~ · t you .'i(_n' t not ice •;:hc:.:he<·

CUIJli.ng in n< ouc-.: Dh you not i.cc, or •'i.ci you noc

noc:Lco '>'.'hccl1el' pecnlc were coming oul: of i:he bui lc ing

t h ~ . ~ time?

n · t 1 •• c•'- ..._}

0eve1·: l of f i ce r s : t -::he : l ·er,

l o t o f p eo p le r o u n c ~ . I ( o n t ln1ow wheth

they v:c·:c goinr; in OJ: ouc Ol noc. I cou1dn t s::y th2

Then you wen C r round to the b: ck of

MR.. R 1 ·:.t'l'ESS : Yes , s i r .

: Q B .LIN: : ~ s :nyonc :.•.·oun. i_n ~ h e b:cl: \'.'hen



I

• 2

3 :n D::LE: : f •.:h .. t bn _1 i n g ~

4

5

6 i:h: buiJ, ing ?

7

9\r , ,r ( 1· •• le-- c

-.._.; ,_) ' - ' \_, ._ f;cc I h ~ v b?cn

1 by ~ h e 11: cc milli .on iJaes. ~ h e l p:e .:he.·c ts the

11

12 You cr.n .: i 4Fhc nu:: c i in i t c ly

13 C ~ c \.·h: c f l o o r i:hc le<:;c woulc be-:-

14

IS ~ . I f t . 13:SLIN: I f you c<·n .:, I l :ouL c·rthe;: noc

16 h ~ / C you guess, buL i f you o :mm . T l .·ouJ.c: l i l ~ e to

17 h.· vc you s L: - ~ e .

18 I be l i eve t h ~ t i t

19 , - e _ · ~ · g e ~ . n t , nov.r o you knCY: · where

2

21

22 ;.m. BELIN: Between v:h:-; L f loors is the lc•.:ge?

23 ; J2l Hi. I:lESS: The l e c ~ g e is bet 1. een, over the

24 Six th Floor.

25



2

3

6

7

11

12

13

15

16

17

bu i

, rn.' .

•lil

= ~ l m ; s i t un

'l'(Y C l ln: nr .: . - __ •- . .._.. -

n

Yes.

:he:

t :' _ 'J: c un

. l .·'

' -

So t t , . OU l_r e n o : ' ~ · h nf _ lm s i -L

18 ~ o c s tnto the un1 1er9:ss , but sou:h of h exconsion

19 of .:::1m;

2

21 i .

22 :f:l. D:::L N: · : oul _ you h: vc been ' . ' : e ~ ; l: of the

23 :..:chool n, i l• ~ ' ' ) Q < i ( ' Q · · y Dt j i l . · - i nc rj_ .. .. -- - ..:. . ._: -- . u -. · - : > t h: t time?

24

25



.

3

4 i ITI B ~ i ~ T _ J I N :

L l lL - _:

6 l -ffi. H_· L : N ~ ~ S S : No s ir

7

9

10

11

12 ;.IR. r r : - , _ r r ~ ( : ...1..:..; ~ . c - . . 1 1 :_J.Ji... o No

13 MTI. B:G _J N

15 i: he l C ?

16 Yes, s i r .

17

18

19 Yes, s i r .

2

21

22 one of those f loors. He di(n l : c l e ~ . r l y i c e n ~ i f y it

23 s he s ; •: · m n 1·: it h h i ~ h - ~ o w e r e ~ r i f l e w ~ l k i n ~__.

24 rounci U:J t h e ~ · e .25



C i V I

0 · J_ •

2 No,

3 :.IR. B T ~ I ; I N :

4 I h· ve hi s

6 0i.( he s:.y : ny i:h'nc; c1sc?

7 No, Si l .

8 Is t h c e ~ o :nyching celso c h ~ ~ h ~ n e n c9 [:h: 0 C:.y ~ h : t m i r ; h ~ '.n zny ,,.: y bee :·clcv: nt c:o th ts

11No, s i_r

12 :n. B:SLIN:

13 s : - t u r ~ r y I ~ ~ : s ~ s s i g n · to

4 .1·,ous con, between Elm z n ~ Mrin.

15 Is the···e < nything e l se ~ h r t you i(

16

17 ·:·elevz,nt to thi s : • · c ~ of i .nquiry:

18 ;.JR. IL . ~ X N ~ ~ 3 S :19

: o<.m i:hcl C, ::nc I observed J ~ : c k Ruby : L the ent-:::--nce

20 of the _j; '.1 or.cn t lw ·:·e on Sr t ur( : y.

21):lR. m:LIN: You sr.w J ~ : c l < :1uby ner r the entrr nce

22f t l . . 1 C - . ..

o 1c J: · _ on ru l r y:

23Yes, s i r .

24MR BELIN: H:.s your s t ~ . t c m o n l : r L·c: r:y been



1 T ; · , ~ ~ ~ c1 ',_ .... ·- l

I

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

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22

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25

· .. ,J. l_ \ . . .

~ 3 u t y·· u

c•- - ..

L h c:ffcc

nyDnc else m· ..nyth ing e.l.sc t l l r ,

the t ~ > : ~ i o L:h: , - <;-• 1 1..., 1 .__ \_ h,.c been

· hen I - > • ~ . ; : . r1

l - - • ._, ,_ i_n

J ~ l the < :y befm·e, which

B.ST,JN: ny:l1inn· nlce- - ~ . . , -- .._, .

1 h ~ l: i s ; ll ,

: ::t DEL IN:

~ L I?·T: : .llby ~ . 1 1 or not 0

I h: . ;:: met hi m,

;,ne-.: .,·,ho he t;;; s, but oi:he·: th: n ch:·. , th:· t i.s : . l l .

; m B:SLIN: Is thc··c ny 0 he• ·c· th ing you c:-n

thin:: oi ··:he Lhe I h: v z s ~ ~ c - l_ l . 110•. L c m i g h ~



1

2

3

4

5 ( )

6 c: D

7

8

9

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13

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18

19

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CC Unc ; ,

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--' · - - - · · · · ~

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b') :: h .i ys.

I ,_,Ul j u s i .ve.

( , ~ · r · -_ ,.

. ~ ; ' '1'' < U 8 ' ' ' l.ve1 )-. ;__- ... - _, - ·, . . . .



REPRODUCED ~ ~ ~ T H : . ~ A T I O ~ ~ L : : : r : t E ~ · ·l'IARA AP

102-526 JFK 4CT)

DATE lb/211 L3

VETERANS ADMINISTRATIONS M R YBURN M E MO R I L VETER NS CENTER

BONHAM, TEXAS 75418

IN REPLY

R EFER TO, 522/116B

June 1, 1978

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN

This statement i s made on behalf of Mr. Seymour Weitzman on his

request and with his consent.

Mr. Seymour Weitzman, born January 28, 1922, in his capacity of

deputy constable of the Sher i f f s Office, personally and from close

dis tance witnessed the events that resul ted in the death of former

President John F. Kennedy. His testimony and account of what he

observed were collected by the Invest igators of the Police Department of Dallas, Office of the Sheriff of the Dallas County, and

the Warren Commission. His testimony is a ~ t t e r of record, and

he has no new or addit ional information to add to the statements

made a t that t ime.

Since that time Mr. Weitzman was t reated for emotional i l lness

for many years, and is presently a member of the Veterans

Administration Domiciliary at th is Sam Rayburn Memorial Veterans

Administration Center in Bonham, Texas. I t is of great importance

for his welfare and emotional well-being to excuse Mr. Weitzmanfrom par t ic ipa t ion in any further invest igat ions of the events

he witnessed; any information sought from him should be extracted

from his testimony and deposi t ions made a t that time.

r / /

Ute z ~ c ~Charles L a b u ~ a Ph.D.

Chief, P s y c h ~ l o g y Service

,

Show vaeran s full name, VA file number, nd social Jtcurity numher on ll correspondmce.

'.,



r ] I 1 3$

--

INVESTIGATION INTERVIEW S HEDULE

Ident i fying Information:

Name Roy Eugene VaughnAddress Route 1,

City/S ta te Midlothian Texas

Date_____________Place____________

,, J .. A '• 1 c .... ·- '--·

KENNEDY

Date of Birth._...;:.3/'-2=-4 -'/:....3::.;5:__________ M or s______1_l_c _______Social Secur i ty________________ Spouse______________________

Children________________

2. Physical Description:

Height__________ Color Eyes__ Hair_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

1'7eigh ~ Special Charac ter is t ics_ _ _ _ _ _ ___

Ethnic r o u p ~

•

3. Personal History:

a. Present Emp loyment=-------------------------------------

Address

-------------------------------------------elephone_____________ ____________

b . Criminal Record

1. Arrests___________

2. Convictions---------

4. Additional Personal Information:

a. Relat ive s) : Name ~Address_______________________

b . Area frequented: __________________

c . R e m a r k s ~ ~I n v e s t i g a t o r Harold Rose (, u v-f / [ ( ~ ; i . e _

Date 11 122/77

Form 14-B

(J r--_ __

ft

[

rI



';

t·ft

REPRODUCED T

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ~ S S S I N T I O N S KE ::;EDY

NAME Roy Eugene Vaughn Da te ime

Address Route l ace Midlo th ian , Texas

Telephonic i n t e rv i ew

I n t e r v i ew By I n v es t i g a to r Harold Rose

Roy Vaughn s t a t e d t h a t on November 22, 1963, he was

in p a t r o l working in a two man ca r . G.W. Temple was h i s

par tne r . They worked the South Dal las area . The a t e l unch

a t Vaughn s house and then were c r u i s in g i n the a rea o f

Hatcher and Colon ia l . They decided to swi tch over to channel 2

to see how the motorcade was coming a long and heard what sounded

l i ke mass confus ion. They switched back to Channel 1.

di spa tche r sen t a l l squads in the downtown a rea to Elm and

Houston, Code 3 (Emergency) . Someone on the a i r asked what

happened. The d ispa tcher sa id Signa l 19 (Shooting) invo lv ing

the Pres iden t . They proceeded to the a rea and pul l ed up on

Houston S t re e t , on the west s ide o f the T.S.B.D. Afte r Vaughn

and Temple got o u t o f the ca r , Vaughn l o s t t r a ck o f Temple.

Vaughn s tayed on the e a s t s ide o f the T.S.B.D. he had parked

the car on the curb on the e a s t s ide o f the T.S.B.D. A

se c u r i t y guard came ~ t o f the bui ld ing across from the T.S.B.D. ,

now the Museum, and had_a man in cus tody . The guard t o l d

vaughn t h a t he took the man i n to custody because he d i d n t

be long in the b u i l d i n g . The guard tu rned the man over to

I n t e r v i e w e r___________ :

SignatureU . /

Harold Rose(Typed)

Date T r a n s c r i b e d__ l c e l c . L / _ , 2 - 2 ~ / - 7 - - - 7 ___ by 1 :

(In.

·



•

•

f

_ R ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ : r ~ H E . ~ ~ T ~ ~ ~ : - ~ c ~ ~ - ~ E ) ; . ?.G 23 3

- ; : e l e ~ j Jnn

- 2 -

vaughn. vaughn took the man to the S h e r i f f s of f i c e and

turned him over to a deputy she r i f f (name unknown) . Vaughn

then re turned to the T.S.B.D. he heard someone say t h a t some

men had jumped i n to a box car down by Union Sta t ion . He t o ld

a Sergeant in front of the T.S.B.D. Vaughn, Bi l l Bass, Marvin

Wise and another of f i ce r (name unknown) ran down the t racks

for 3 or 4 blocks to the gra in ca r s near Union te rminal .

Vaughn climbed up and went to the rea r of a car . e looked

i n to an open ca r and saw th reemen

a t the opposi te end o f

the ca r , kind of ly ing down. Vaughn pul led h is revolver and

ordered the men ou t of the ca r . The men came out o f the ·car .

Bass and Wise took the men to the Sh er i f f s o f f i ce . a u g h n ~and the o ther o f f i c e r rode the Caboose back to the area of

the T.S.B.D. and got of f . Vaughn sa id t ha t he did not look

in any other gra in ca r . e s tayed in the a rea of the T.S.B.D.

and heard on po l i ce radio t ha t an of f i ce r had been sho t . e

c ou ldn t get h i s ca r out of the parking jam to go to Oak Cl i f f .

At some po in t , he went i n to the T.S.B.D. and was on the f loo r

where the r i f l e was found. e remained in the area of the

T.S.B.D. un t i l re l eased .

On Sunday, November,24, Vaughn was working r e l i e f .

Sometime in the morning he got a ca l l to go to the Pat ro l Off ice .

on the 2nd f loor of the Court Building. On a r r iva l , there

were severa l o ther of f i ce r s there . Lieut . R.S. Pearce came

in and t o ld him to see Sgt . P.T. Dean in the basement and ge t



I

REPRODU ED· · .....

- 3 -

his assignment. When Vaughn got to the basement Sgt . Dean

was busy and c ou ldn t t a lk to him. Vaughn t o ld Sgt . Putnam

what Lt. Pearce had t o ld him and Sgt . Putnam made the ass ign-

ments. Vaughn was ass igned to the ~ i n St r e e t entrance to

the basement. He was not to l e t anyone without a Press Pass

i n to the basement. As he s t a r t ed up the ramp he met a man

coming down. He chal lenged the man who produced i d e n t i f i c a t i o n

from the Department of Publ ic Safe ty . Vaughn went up the

ramp to Main St ree t , where he observed former Dallas po l i ce

o f f i c e r N.J. Daniels s tanding outs ide the Main St r e e t entrance

to the basement. He t a lked to Daniels a whi le . Later on

Sgt . P.T. Dean came up the ramp and t o ld Vaughn t ha t two

armored cars would come i n to the basement but he d i d n t n ~which s ide they were coming in . Vaughn checked severa l I . D . s .

An armored t ruck came and backed down the Commerce St ree t

s ide . The t ruck c o u l d n t ge t a l l the way down. Vaughn saw

what he descr ibed as confus ion in the basement. Vaughn saw

a po l ice car with i t s red l i gh t f l a sh ing , back up in the

basement and s t a r t up the Main St r e e t ramp. In the car was

Lieut . Pearce Sgt . Maxey and Sgt . Putnam. Vaughn had to s t ep

as ide to l e t the car out . Pr io r to Lt . Pearce s car coming

ou t , a man pul led up to t.he ent rance in a squad ca r . This

man was Tommy Chibol t , a mechanic in the pol ice garage.

Chibol t to ld Vaughn tha t he was supposed to check the parking

s i t ua t i on in the basement. Vaughn t o ld Chibol t to park the

car on the s t r e e t and he then l e t him walk down the ramp.

{



Itrt

REPRODUCED T THE

~ - ~ f ' ' • ... · . " ' " N ~ T . f ~ N : ' : . ~ - C - ~ I ~ E j c . ; (RG 2 3 3

• :14 • • •

- 4 -

Vaughn stepped back i n to the ent rance way a f t e r P e a rc e s car

went by. In a few minutes , Vaughn heard someone in t he base-

ment say, here he comes. There was mass confus ion and a

br igh t l i gh t came on in the basement. Shor t ly , t h e r e a f t e r ,

Vaughn heard a muffled noise and saw a s c u f f l e . He saw a

hand come out o f the crowd and another hand t r i ed to grab

the hand as i s t rugg l ing for a weapon. Short ly t he rea f t e r ,

a man broke loose from the crowd and s t a r t ed running up the

ramp toward Vaughn. A reserve o f f i c e r grabbed the man.

Vaughn drew h i s r evo lver . The man i de n t i f i e d himsel f as

Detec t ive D.M. Burgess , now deceased, was r e leased and came

up to Vaughn. He t o ld Vaughn t ha t a r e p o r t e r had shot Oswald.

aughn s tayed a t h is pos t . After a whi le , a man came up to

Vaughn and mentioned Ruby's name and sa id he wanted to t a lk

to someone. Vaughn took the man to the in fo rmat ion c le rk and

turned the man over to a de tec t ive . In a shor t whi le , Vaughn

was re l ieved . La te r in the day, Capt. Talber t ca l l ed Vaughn

and asked i he knew Jack Ruby. vaughn sa id t ha t he did know

Ruby. On Tuesday, November 26, Lieu t . Pearce ca l l ed Vaughn

a t home and t o ld Vaughn to come in and wri te a spec ia l repor t

on the inc ident . Tuesday and Wednesday, Vaughn worked ex t ra

with N C newstream. Sometime Honday o r Tuesday, Vaughn became

aware t ha t Ruby had supposedly en te red the basement through

the Main St r e e t ramp. Vaughn s t a t e d t ha t he ca l l ed N.J . Daniels

and asked him i he saw anyone go down the ramp when Lt . P ea r ce s

ca r came out o f the basement. Daniels t o ld Vaughn t ha t he

'·



1

;

·

j

• 3 •

j

.... . ~ ·

•

._ R E P ~ ~ ~ = 2 H E . ~ ~ T ~ ~ : - A R C ~ I V E ) . RG 23 3

INVESTIGATION INTERVIEW SCHEDULE

Id e n t i fy i n g In fo rma t ion :

Date 11/11 /77ame B i l l ~ Lee BassAddress 616 Ja rd in

C i t y / S t a t e Mesgui te , Texas

Place pa11as Pol ice Headquarters

Date o f Bi rth._----"'4.t..I.=1-'-7"'-/-"'3- :2'-----

Soc ia l S ecu r i t y

Phys ica l Descr iEt ion:

Telephone 285-3665

M o r s_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _Spouse.

Children.________

Heigh t Color Eyes___ Hai r

l ' leightEthn ic Group

S p ec i a l C h a r a c t e r i s t i c s

.< '

.Persona l H i s to ry :

a . Presen t Employment: p a l l as Pol ice oeQartment

Address

Telephone

b . Crimina l Record

l Arres t s

2. Convic t ions

Addi t iona l Per s o n a l Informat ion:

a . Rela t ive s ) : Name

Address.

b . Area f requen ted : _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __

c . Remarks: 3 ~ years on Dallas P.O.; p r e s en t l y ass igned to

Legal Liaison Unit .

In v e s t i g a t o r Harold Rose

Date 11/22/77 Form 4-B



t

- . REPRODUCED AT THE NAT.IONAL £. ARCHIVES

- ofo , .0 1 - ~ l l . n . . _ . . . 2 3 3 )

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS - Kennedy

NAME Bi l ly Lee Bass Date l l / l l / 7 7 Time 10:40 a.m.

Address 616 Ja rd in Place Dal las Pol ice Headquar te rs

Mesquite, Texas

In te rv iew:

.B i l ly Lee Bass s t a t ed . tha t on November 22, 1963 he was

ass igned to a one-man car in pa t ro l , e i the r number 21 o r 101.

He had come in to town in company with another of f i ce r name

unknown) to book a pr i soner . Off ice r Bass cannot remember i f

he drove h i s car o r the o ther of f i ce r drove. After having the

sub jec t booked, the of f i ce r s headed back to t he i r work area .

They stopped for the motorcade a t Cedar Spring.

After a r r iv ing back in t he i r area , they got in to t he i r own

veh ic les . He was c ru i s ing south on Harry Hines Blvd. near

Wolfe St ree t when the d ispa tcher came on the a i r and t o ld

Bass to repor t to Elm and Houston Code 3 Emergency).

Afte r d r iv ing severa l blocks, Bass asked the d i spa tcher what

the na tu re of h i s c a l l was. The d i spa tcher sa id e i t he r shoot ing

a t the President o r shots f i red a t the Pres iden t . The

d ispa tcher ordered a l l squads to r e por t to Elm and Houston.

Bass sa id t h a t he bel ieves he was one of the f i r s t un i t s

to a r r ive a t the scene. He parked h i s ca r headed nor th a t the

southwest corner of the T.S.B.D. He took the shotgun out of

the ca r . Everyone was running around in mass confus ion .

> •

In te rv iewer__ _ · _ v _ a _ G _ · ~ L ~ ~ ~ J ~ J ~ L ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - S igna ture )

Harold Rose

Typed)

Date Transcr ibed__ _l_/_2_2_/_7_7___ by am

In i



lb i l i ¥ -

•

[I

REPRODUCED AT TH NATIONAL ARCHIVES

-• • • . . . . . .. ' f•f , JIW'.l\ill ••=·RG 233)

Bi l ly Lee Bass In te rv iew ... page 2

Somebody pointed to the T.S.B.D. and sa id : He's still in the

bu i ld ing . Bass took a pos i t ion on the s.w. corner of the

T.S.B.D. so t ha t he could see anyone running out o f the bu i ld ing .

Somebody, Bass sa id it may have been Sgt . Dave Harkness ,

sa id three men ran down the ra i l road yard and got i n to a gra in

ca r . qave Harkness , Marvin Wise, Roy Vaughn and Bass ran down

the ra i l road t racks about one-quar te r mile to the gra in ca r s .

Roy Vaughn climbed up the l adder on one o f the cars and saw

th ree men huddled in the corner o f the f r e igh t car . Vaughn

ordered the men out onto the ground and t he men cursed a t

Vaughn. Off ice r Vaughn then jacked a she l l in to the chamber

of h i s shotgun, pointed it a t the men and ordered them ou t o f

the car . When the men got on the ground, they were given a

good pat-down for weapons - but none were found. The men were

marched up the r a i l r oa d t r acks to Elm St ree t , across the

f ron t of the T.S.B.D. , across the s t r e e t to the county jail

and turned over to a Deputy Sher i f f (name unknown). Bass

went back to the f ron t of the T.S.B.D. and shor t ly t he rea f t e r

heard a ca l l come over poLice radio t ha t an of f i ce r had been

shot in Oak Cl i f f . Bass s t a t ed t ha t he cou ldn ' t ge t h is c a r

out of the parking jam-up to go to Oak Cl i f f . e s tayed

around the area of the s.w. corner of the T.S.B.D. un t i l about

5 p.m. when an order came out fo r the day s h i f t of f i c e r s to

repor t to the garage .



- REPRODUCED T THE N TION L A R C H I V E ~ i• """ tt il ~ ( A G 233

Bi l ly Lee Bass In te rv iew page 3

To h is knowledge no o th e r boxcars were searched a f t e r

the three men were apprehended.

e observed t ha t the three men had hobo type c lo th ing on

but from the neck up were c lean shaven and had good ha i r c u t s .

The men did not say anything while being t aken to the

S h e r i f f s of f i c e .

1

II

f



REPRODUCED T THE

•••• CA (rtG 233.. _ .

INVESTIGATION I NTERVIEW SCHEDULE

den t i fy i ng Informat ion:

Name Marvin Lynn Wise

Address 7015 Overlook Qriye

Ci t y / S t a t e Dallas . Texas

Date o f Bir th__ 7 ~ 1 ~ 2 ~ 0 ~ / ~ 1 ~ 4 1 - ___________Soc ia l Secur i ty___________________

2 . Phys ica l Descr i r t ion :

Height

{ 7e gh t _

Ethn ic Group_____________

..J . Persona l His to ry :

Date__ l ~ l ~ ~ 1 ~ 4 ~ / ~ 7 ~ 7 _____Place Pal l as po l ice Headquar te r s

Telephone 381-7382

M o r s_______________Spouse____________________

Children-------------------

Color Eyes Hai r

Spec ia l Charac t e r i s t i c s_____________

a . Presen t Employment: ___ ~ a = l ~ l ~ a ~ s ~ P ~ o ~ l ~ 1 ~ c ~ e ~ ~ e ~ p ~ a ~ r ~ t ~ m ~ e ~ n ~ t _________Address_______________________________________________ _

Telephone._________________________

b . Crimina l Record

1. A rre s t s-----------2. Convic t ions___________

4. Addi t iona l Persona l In fo rma t ion :

a . Re l a t iv e s } : Name_________________________

Addr ess ________________________

b . Area f requented: ______________

c . Remarks: 19 years on Dal las po l jce Dept presen t ly ass igned

to In te l l igence Unit .

In v e s t i g a t o r Harold Rose

Date 11/22/77 For m 4 - B

~ - ~ ~ ~ ~

t



•

a;; : :a

NATIONAL A R C H I V E S ~ ~

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REPRODUCED T THE

, . ~ I t ~ ,,-,tf• W seA RG 233)

~ a r v i n Lynn Wise In te rv iew page 2

and was assigned to the west s ide o f T.S.B.D. He was s i t t i n g

in h is ca r and a man working in the Rai l road Bui lding waved

a t him. Wise and another of f i ce r (name forgot ten) were

t o ld by the man t ha t t h ree men got i n to a boxcar about four

o r f ive hundred yards down the t rack . Wise, in company with

Bi l l Bass, Roy Vaughn and Middleton, went to the boxcars

and took the men of f the boxcar . Wise s t a t e d the men ac ted

scared and he could smell wine on the brea th o f one o f them.

Wise took the men over to the S h e r i f f s of f i ce and, whi le

wai t ing to turn them over, asked the men for i den t i f i ca t i 9n .

Wise s t a t e d t ha t he be l ieves two of the men had documented I s ~:He wrote the i den t i f i ca t i ons down on paper and put them in

h i s hat . He tu rned the men over to the S h e r i f f s o f f i c e

(Deputy s name unknown) and went back to h i s radio . He

heard over the po l i ce radio tha t a policeman had been s h o ~ and

a little l a t e r heard t ha t it was J .D. Tipp i t . He was t o ld to

remain a t the T.S.B.D. and s tayed the re un t i l re l i eved . Wise

s ta ted tha t he put the paper with the t ramps i d e n t i f i c a t i o n

on it in his locker , where it remained for over a year . He

cleaned his locker o u ~ and j u s t a f t e r t ha t people began

asking him for the informat ion but he had thrown it ou t .

On November 24, Wise was or ig ina l ly assigned in the basement

behind a TV camera. Then he was moved to the corner of Elm

and St. Paul for secur i ty and to hold t r a f f i c when the armored



• S O. 2 3 3REPRODUCED T THE N TION L RCHIVES

-

Marvin Lynn Wise In terv iew . . . pa ge 3

ca r came by. He s t a t ed t ha t a f t e r a shor t while he heard

s i r ens . Sgt . Flusche t t e came by and sa id Oswald had been

shot . Wise and Off ice r Brock were sen t to Parkland Hosp i ta l .

Wise guarded the opera t ing room un t i l he was re l i eved and was

to ld by Sgt . Flusche t t e t ha t Jack Ruby had sho t Oswald . Wise

s t a t ed t ha t he knew Jack Ruby even before he became a po l i ce

o f f i c e r . e and his wife l i ked to dance and would go to

Ruby s Vegas Club. He s t a t ed t ha t Ruby was pro-law-enforcement .

Relat ive to the photograph showing Wise leading the

t ramps, be advised t ha t Wise s ta ted tha t he had an ea r

in fec t ion from swimming and had cot ton in it e s t a t ed t h a t

it probably was hanging ou t because he had run a good d i s t ance

and it may have come loose . e sa id tha t his doc tor then i s

still h i s doctor now: Dr. Kendall Moore 10611 Garland Rd.,

327-4584. Wise s t a t ed t ha t the odd looking shoes he was

wearing were in f ac t low-cut galoshes or overshoes . He

worked South Dallas ,and very few s t r e e t s were p a v e d - most

were sand and d i r t . e v.ore them because it had ra ined in the

morning and he kept them on.

.



•

Refere

1\.t.PKUULL.t..U Al Utt. 1V \AL A K L t l i \ o t ~ · -

I Y. n u... . tua H ttt1 ·'

0 ~ 3 1 1 6SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSIN

NAME. <-"a"'v'-'i"d"'-.:t.Y_,._,H,a"-"-r"'k""n.,e"'s"-s"'-----Date 10/26 /77 Time 9·20 a.m.

A d d r e s s 1 8 5 ~ Summit Pl a c e Dal las Texas

Phone: 214/821-5659

I n t e r v i e w : by J . P . Kel ly and Harold Rose

Harkness was i n t e rv i ewed a t 9:20 a.m. on 10/26 /77 a t the

County o f Dal las ? roba t ion Off ice on Thornton Expressway. He

s p e n ~ 27 years wi th the Dal las P.D. and has been r e t i r e d fo r

the ~ a s t four yea r s .

Harkness was ques t ioned abou t h is a c t i v i t i e s in

connec t ion with the JFK motorcade in Dal la s on 11/22/63.

Harkness road a th ree wheel motorcycle . He says t h a t h i s

func t ion on t h a t day was to supe rv i se the a reas Main t o F i e ld

S t r e e t s and Elm and Houston St re e t s on the parade rou te to

see t h a t no o b s t ru c t i o n s to the parade were pe rmi t t ed . J u s t

be fore the motorcade was due , a man su f fe red an e p i l e p t i c

se i z u re . We c a l l e d an ambulance from Park land for him. This

i n c i d e n t took place n ea r the pool on the West s ide o f Houston.

I went to the corne r o f Main and Houston and the motorcade

came by. I parked my b ik e and s t a r t e d to cu t diagona l ly ac ross

the g ra ssy a r ea when I heard t he sho t s . The Pres ident ' s ca r

s lowed, a lmost s topped . A second and t h i r d sho t came c lose

t o g e th e r . I co u ld n ' t tell where they came from. I went back

to my bike and drove to I n d u s t r i a l Blvd.

I n t e r v i ewer Q - ? 1 - : = - - - ~ - - · , / ( - ~ - - - - - - - - > : . . r - 1 - - - - ( S i g n a t u r e ) ?/

I d i d n ' t see any th ing

(Typed)

.

D a t e T r a n s c r i b e _ : l : : _ : l : : _ : / : _ 4 . : / ~ 7 : _7 by 1 j

( I m. t

(con t ' d . on pg. two)

l1



Ref ere

IU.YI(Ul LLI:.V Al l h t . ~ A l U ~ A L A l < ~ t 1 U t ~', ..... .. ... , ..... .· - 2 - t

•

t h a t way so I went back to the area of Elm and Houston.

There was a iittle colored boy. Euins was h i s name. He

was a school boy. He sa id he saw a r i f l e come from the

window o f the School Book Deposi tory. The boy gave no

d e sc r i p t i o n o f a person, he j u s t t a lked about the r i f l e .

I took him to the TS D and turned him over to Inspec tor

Sawyer; Harkness t o ld us .

Ei the r Sawyer o r Lumplain gave him an assignment to

sea rch the r a i l ro a d cars and he helped rous t the three

t ramps . He did not know t he i r names o r what happened to

them. They were taken to the Sher i f f ' so f f i ce . He r eca l l s

t h a t the names of two escor t ing pol icemen were Wise and Bass .

Harkness then t o ld us t ha t on Saturday morning, Nov. 23,

1963, he was again a t Houston St r e e t across from the county

j a i l . t was not known when Oswald was to be t rans fe r red

from Pol ice Headquarters to the county and they were guarding

the area in f ron t of the a l ley-way ent rance to the j a i l .

Jack Ruby came up and was at tempting to ge t pas t the po l ice

ba r r i e r s . Harkness, who knew Ruby, ordered him behind the

rope a t Elm and Houston S t r eeG d iag o n a l l y across the s t r e e t

from the TSBD. At tha t t ime, a lumber t ruck came by and

dropped a load of 2x6 ' s on the s t r e e t . While Harkness was

ye l l i ng a t the dr ive r , a man from C S News was s tanding

t he re watching Harkness ' discomfor t . He sa id : Don' t worry ,

Sgt . w e ' l l know when he ' s being t r ans fe r red long before you

d0

(con ' td . on pg. three)

l



~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - - . ~ ~ ~ . - _ ~ ~ : 2 ~ 1 : T . · .. ~ ~ ; ~ · , . . C : E : D : A : T : : T • H _ E ~ ~ N · A • T _ . I . i O t I N ; ; A L ' : ; ~ L i j A R i i c , ~ H f i l i v l i E a s J ~ ~ . ' : ~ : : - : _ : - _ - - - : - _,_._-. : : . : . · : · ~ ~ . .- --_-_--:--. ; .:-.

.:.. w ~ ; . ; . -

'Ii•

.iIl' -.

KENNEDY

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

Name

James Herbert Sawyer

Date5 24 78 Time 9:30AM

Address Rt. J. Box J92A Place3254 I rv ing Boulevard

Fr i sco , Texas Dallas , Texas

In te rv iew: Mr. Sawyer was in te rv iewed by Sta f f Inves t iga to r

Joseph J . Bas te r i a t h i s r e s t a u ra n t , Ja n s Coffee Shop, located

a t 3254 I rv ing Boulevard, Dal las , Texas. He has owned and ope ra t ed

t h i s r e s t a u ra n t s ince his re t i remen t from the Dal las Pol ice Depar t -

ment n 1967. Sawyer r eca l l s t ha t on November 22, 1963, he was

ass igned to be n charge o f a d e t a i l of men on the upper por t ion

of the Pre s ide n t i a l Motorcade. A few minutes a f t e r the Pres iden t .

had passed him, he heard over the radio t ha t shots were f i red from

the Texas School Book Deposi tory . Sawyer, who held the rank .of

Inspec to r , immediately rushed to t h i s b u i l d i n ~ and had t secured .

He· then organized a group of law-enforcement of f i ce r s from the

Dallas Pol ice Department , FBI, Secre t Serv ice and the S h e r i f f s

Off ice i n s t ruc t i ng them to f ind witnesses and poss ib le suspec t s .

These witnesses were brought to the S h e r i f f s of f i c e where a f f i -

d a v i t s were taken. Sawyer had a l so sen t a team to search the r a i l -

road yards as t he re were r e p o r t s t h a t shots may have come from

t ha t d i rec t ion · and also t was good inves t iga t ive procedure to

cover a l l sur rounding a reas . He r eca l l s h i s men f inding the t h ree

nte<viewe< i g n a t ~ ~Typed Signa tu re ~ e r i

Date t r ansc r ibed9 19 711

~ , . ; : $ ~ - < . . . ; ~i.;

iii .·

i

Il

.

· -0.. •

iII

By: ROSS Form 14 A.~ . : . : G · -. I

fII

. . ; ,_ .

· ~



AGENCY

RECORD NUMBER

RECORDS SERIESNUMBERED FILES

REPRODUCED T THE N TION L A R C H I V E ~ j f

JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM

IDENTIFICATION FORM

AGENCY INFORMATION

HSCA

180-10102-10056

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 006996 [PART 3 FOLDER 3 OF 7)

Date:OB/13/93Page:1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ORIGINATORFROM

TO

TITLE

DATEPAGES

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT

11/22/63120

SUBJECTSDALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENTRADIO; CHANNEL 1KENNEDY, JOHN; MOTORCADE

TIPPIT, J . ; SHOOTINGOSWALD, LEE; ACTIVITIES OF NOVEMBER 22-24, 1963; ARRESTOSWALD, LEE; MURDER BY RUBY

DOCUMENT TYPECLASSIFICATION

RESTRICTIONSCURRENT STATUS

DATE OF LAST REVIEW

OPENING CRITERIA

COMMENTS :

TRANSCRIPT

uOPEN IN FULL0

08/05/93

•

Radio ca l l s from 10;00am 11/22/63 to 6;00pm 11/24/63 channel 1 of KKB-364

Dal las Tx. Box 134.

\



}

•

,. D Mentzel

HulseMcDaniel

Mentzel

HulseMcDaniel

Mentzel

R. Hawkins

HulseMcDaniel

R Hawkins

HulseMcDaniel

Hawkins

H W Su11111ers

HulseMcDaniel

Sunvners

HulseMcDaniel

C R.Gilbreath

HulseMcDaniel

Gi Ibreath

HulseMcDaniel

J. T Smith• L. Hackney

ulsecDaniel

ackney

I

C h a n ~ E P R ? D U C E D AT THE NATIONAL ARCHIVE·S·

CALLER

9

Disp

9

Disp

9

211

Disp

2

Disp

211

221

Disp

221

Disp

Disp

Disp

32

Disp

32

91

9

CONVERSATl ON

What do you want me to do with the keys after I lockthat car up?

Just keep them until you contact 223

IO.Jt.

211

211

Captain Westbrook wants a photographer up here at theTexas Theater.

5b9 is supposed to be enroute.

Message received.

l

5b9 is 4oo block E lOth. He 1s out down there, he said.

10-4. Send him on up to the Texas Theater, 221. g

He 1s got his speaker on. I ve already left there.guess he 1 come on up.

Go back by and contact him. 49 ••••

Report to the City Hall Identification Bureau, pick upsome equipment, Take down to the scene of the earliershooting on Houston.

IO.Jt, I :56 p.m.32 ••••

32.

On Shorecrest at the end of the North-South runway,report to that location, 1:57 p.m.

IO.Jt.

____ ____

0

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Nww



HulseMcDaniel

SmithHackney

HulseMcDani e l

SmithHackney

G. W. TempleR. E. Vaughn

HulseMcDaniel

G. W. Templ eVaughn

HulseMcDaniel

TempleVaughn

HulseMcDanie l

c.t.n.

HulseMcDan ie l

C.I.D.

HulseMcDani el

J.P. Holl ingsworth

C.l .D.

Special Service

•

~ E P R O D U E D AT THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES 'c ' •

CALLER

Disp

32

Disp

32

61

Disp

61

Di sp

61

Disp

392

Disp

392

Disp

2 1

361

98

CONVERSATION

32••••

32.

Keep everyone moved out of that area when you arrive.

10-4.

61.•

61.

We have information from the agent out here at T P.Said that the train is stopped on the overpass; thetriple overpass; that there was a person jump ing atthe 9th boxcar from the front engine. Said he washiding in a car.

Is the train stopped there now?

I'm in behind the Texas School Depository. He hasthe train stopped. He said i t is the 9th car car fromthe engine. He climbed over the top of cars. Said he s

hovering down inside.

Any squad Elm Houston •••

392.

392, did you rece ive that information?

Io-4. Enroute.

10-4.

2 1 enroute.

361 enroute.

498 is going back.



REPRODUCED T THE N lLON L R L H l V t ~

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I NVESTIG TION INTERV IE tv SCHEDULE

.den t i fy i ng Informat ion:v

QJ

J

y ~Name

Address 7015 Overlook Qrive

Ci t y / S t a t e Dallas , Texas

Date o f Bir th__ 7 + , / ~ 2 ~ 0 ~ , _ 3 _ 4____________

Soc ia l Secur i ty

-------------------

11 / 14 / 77

Place D a l l a s POl jce Headquarters

Telephone 381-7382

M o r S

Spouse- - - - - - - ------------------hi ldren

2 . Ph?s ica l Descr ip t ion:

Height-------l 'Jeight

- - - - - - -Ethn ic Group

Color Eyes- - - - Hair---------

Spec ia l Charac te r i s t i c s----------

3. Per sonal His tory :

4 .

a. Presen t Employment: Dal las Pol ice Department

Address----------------------------------------elephone------------------------

b . Criminal Record

1 . Arres t s

2. Convict ions- - - - - - - -

Addi t iona l Persona l Informat ion: .

a. Rela t ive s ) : Name--- - - ·- ---· --

---------------------------Address

---------------------

b . Area f requented:

-----------c . Remarks: 19 ye rs on Dal las Pol ice

to In te l l igence Unit .Dept present ly assigned

Inves t iga tor Harold Rose

Date 11/ 22 / 77 Form 4-B

.



INVESTIGATION INTERVIEW SCHEDULE

Ide n t i f y ing Informat ion:

Name Bi l ly Lee Bass

Address 616 Ja rd in

Ci ty /S t a t e Mesqui te Texas

Date of B i r th__ 4 / ~ 1 ~ 7 / ~ 3 ~ 2 ~ -Soc ia l Secur i ty

------------------

2 . Phys ica l Descr ip t ion :

Heightr7e i ght________

Date 11 / 11 / 77

Place

T e l e p h o n e ~ ~ ~ = 4 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~M o r s ~ ~ ~ ~ Spouse____ ~ - - - - - - ~ - - - -Children - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ~ - -

Color Eyes Hai r----------• _ t •

Spec1a l C h a r a c t e r 1 s t 1 C f l _ ~ ~ - - - - - - - -Ethn ic Group-------------

.. f t ~ ~ ~l ~ t v

~ ---- 3. Persona l His to ry : ' · P ~

a . P resen t Employment: __ ~ ~ l ~ l ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ o · ~ ~ ~ · ~ ~ ~ t u w m e ~ n ~ t ~ - - - - - - Address------------------------------------------------Telephone________________________

b. Criminal Record

1 . Arres t s----------2. Convic t ions----------

.._ Addi t i ona Persona l Informat ion :

a . Rela t ive (s ) : Name~

Address-----------------------

b . Area f requented: ----------------c . Remarks: 2 3 ~ years on Dallas P.D. ; presen t ly assigned to

Legal Lia ison Unit .

Inve s t ig a to r Harold Rose

Da t e 11 / 22 / 77 Form 4-B

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R E P R ~ D U C E D T THE N TION L A R C H I V E ~. • -

w. F. l>y:wn J r

'1100 Riddle HoadA Jstin, Texas i ~ 7 5Business: (512) 476-3541

A M. Eberhardt

Rt. 411 Box 234Mesquite, Texas

(214) 286-7577

B

75149

Thomas .0. Trotman

Rt. 4t2 Box 165Kemp, Texas 75143(214) 498-5671

John C. Day3722 Shady Hollow

Dallas, Texas 75233(214) 337-2919

Marvin J . Wise1004 Lind sey Lane _ ~ IL . . ;Tylev," 'Texa·s 75701 _

592-2780

0{6p /W. E. (Pete) Barnes

Rt. ft2, Box 195Plano, Texa s 75074(214) 424- 3625

James H e r b ~ r Sawye r3260 Irving Bouleva rdDallas, Texas 75247Bu sines s: (214) 638-3692

Pattick T. DeanRt It 3, Box 521

Tyl e r, T cx:1s 75701(214) 566-1585

Billy Senkel

Rt 411 Box MP .3-139

Belton, Texas 76513

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Me - q u i Lt•, 'l. c x:ts 75149(21.4) 279 -4R47

Hiclt:JI·d M. Sims8 4 ~ 3 Swee twaterDa l la s , Texas 75228(214) 324- 4195

George M. DoughtyP. 0 . Box 28452Da l la s , Texas 75228

Robert L. Studebaker

1601 Pa peetePlano , Texas 75074(214) 423-9367

L. C. Craves

7 719 TillmanDallas, Texas 75217(214) 391-7011

Roy W. Walker3915 Bonni eview RoadDa l la s , Texas 75216(214) 374-3 1 44

M G Hall

P. 0. Box 215Avery, Texa s 75554

Johnni e B. Hicks

43 18 MatildaDa l l as, Texas 75206(214) 823- 8922

James R. Lea ve l le7703 Ri l l a AvenueDa l l as, Texas 75217(214) 39 1-2939

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0 ~ 3 1 1 6· :... .. : ;.• •. • SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSIN

NAME__ D ~ a ~ v ~ 1 ~ · d ~ ~ Y ~ · ~ H ~ a ~ r ~ k ~ n ~ e ~ s ~ s ~ ~ ~ Date 10 / 26 / 77 Time 9:20 a.m.

Address 8 5 ~ Summit Pl ace Da l l a s , Texas

. Phone: 214 /8 21-5659

In t e rv iew: by J ._P. Kel ly and Harold Rose

..H a r k ~ e ~ s was i n t e r v ~ e w e d a t 9:20 a.m. on 10/ 26/ 77 a t the

~ o u n t y o f _Dal las ~ r o b a t i o n Off ice on Thornton . E x p r e ~ s w a y He

- s p ~ n t : 27 years wi th the Dal las P. D·. and has been r e t i r e d f o r

t h e I?ast four years . .

Harkness was ques t ioned ab o u t ,h is a c t i v i t i e s in

connect ion wi th t he JFK motorcade in D al l a s on 11/ 22 / 63· .

Harkness road a t h r ee wheel motorcyc l e . He say s t h a t h i s

func t ion · on t h a t day was to superv i se th e areas Ma.in t o F ie·ld

S t r e e t s and Elm and Houston St r e e t s on the parade r o ute to

see t h a t no obst ruGtions t o the parade were permi t ted . ~ J u s tbe fore t h e motorcade was · due, a man u f f e r e ~ an e p i l e p t i c

se i z u re . We c a l l e d an ambulance from Park land fo r him. This

i nc iden t took place near the pool on the West s i de o f Hous ton .

I went to the corner o f Main and Hous t on and t h e mo to r c ade

came by. I parked my bike and s t a r t ed to cu t diagona l ly a c r o s s

the g r a ~ s y .a rea when I heard the sho t s . The Pres iden t s ca r

s lowed, almost s toppe d . A se-aond a nd t h i r d sho t came c lo se

t o g e th e r . I c o u l d ~ t t ~ ~ l where they came from. I we n t back

to my bike and drov e to Indus t r i a l Blv d .

In te rv iewer__ H _ : _ ~__ : A ; _ ; : ~ : : : : __ ~ A -~ (S igna tu re ) _

(Typed)

I d id n t s e e any th in g

Date Tra n s·c r ib e d_l_l_,/-4-/---_7 by 1 j

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KENNEDY ~ ~ ~ ~SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

NameJames Herbe.rt Sawyer Date 5 24 78 Time 9:30AM

Address Rt. 1 . BOx 1 9 2A Place 3254 I rv ing Boulevard

Fr i sco , Texas Dal las , Texas

In t e rv i ew : Mr. Sawyer was in te rv iewed by S t a f f Inves t iga to r

Joseph J . B as t e r i a t h i s r e s t a u ra n t , · J a n s Coffee Shop loca ted

a t 3 2 5 ~ I r v in g Boulevard Dal l a s , Texas . He has owned and opera ted

t h i s r e s t a u r a n t · s ince h is · re t i r ement from t he Dal las Po l i ce Depar t -

ment in 1967. Sawyer r e c a l l s t h a t on November 22 1963 he was .

ass igned ·to ~ e in charge o f a d e t a i l o f men on t he upper p o r t i o n

o f t he P r e s i d e n t i ~ l ·Motorcade . · A few . minutes a f t e r the Pres iden t .

. had passed h i ~ he heard o v ~ r t h ~ r a d i o t h a t s h o t s were f i r e d from

t he Texas School Book De.p o s i.t o r y . · Sawyer who h e l d t he rank .o f. . .

£nspec t0 r inunediately r u ~ h e d .tO . t h iS buildin<:f and had · it SeCUred •

He t h ~ n organ ized . a · group · o f·· l ~ w - e n f o r c e m e n t of f i c e r s from the

. . . ... . .t a l l a s . Pol i ce Depar tment··, FBI S e c re t· Serv ice arid the S h e r i ff s

. . .

Off ice i n s t ru c t i ? g t h .e m· to · f ind witnesses and poss ib l e suspec t s .

. . .

These ~ i t n e s s e ~ w ~ r e b r o u g h t t o the S h e r i ff s o f f i c e where a f f i -

; ;

d a v i t s were . t a k e n ~ S ~ w - Y ~ r had a l s o sen t a team to search the rail

road y a rd s as · t h e r e · ·were. r ep o r t s t h a t shots may have come from

t h a t d ~ ~ ~ c t i 6 ~ ;:xd a ~ t was good i nves t iga ·tive . procedu;e to

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~ ~ cover a l l surrounding a r ea s . ~ e r e c a l l ~ h i s men f ind ing the t h r ee: .. . • •. -:1

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Date t r an s c r ib ed6 19 7S

By: ROSS Form

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tramps: arresting dallas police

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