· in the supreme com of sourh ¥rica (eastern oafe division) oase no.: co. 72/76....
TRANSCRIPT
IN THE SuPREME COm OF SOurH ¥RICA
(EASTERN OAfE DIVISION)
OASE NO.: CO. 72/76. GRAHAl"ST(JJN •
14th JUNE, 1976.
THE STATE
versus
S<:YrOMELA NDU!.\iANA AND FOUR OTHERS
VOLUJ'1i; 4-
(Pages ~57 _ 422)
LUIlBE RECORDINGS (PRErORIA)
._-_._._--_.
357 ",UI'E.
l'EE CaURi' RES Ul iES OIi 'li,E 14th JU!;E , 1976.
Dm HLUilGISELELI JOllG',nYSE 'SUPE : still unc.er oat.h :
}'URliiEa CROSS U:i,II1!INl' ICl, BY IlR SK\,TillA : 1 wGlnt. t;S t. o dea l
with the meeting which you referred t.o o.G (1 Gpecial mCf'til1G .
In the first. place, on '"hich dat.e e.o you Gay t.l:is :ncctinc ''';05
held? __ Illt.h Oct.ob er .
1 r.IUSt. t. ell you now t.ho t. Hccuscd \;0 . 3 , I. tlnd .5 stJy that. ,
you ore ,,'rong in !JoyinG that this mcet.ill£ .... hie;" you refer to ... S
013 (l. 13pcciol !:leeting , wus on tt,e liith October , 197;' , but. in
foct it "" as on "the l~th Oc t obet' I nnt ;}'ccr . Could ;iOU (IO)
be mokin6 a ~istakc? I do not. t.hink s o .
On ",'hich day of the ",Ieek ',l aG thin meetinc? __ 'l'u esday .
''':ell , ac c used 3 , 4 olld .5 inst ruct us that it. won on a
wedr::"sdoy . Gould you be maki!lt; a lQistuke oc;oin? __ 1 rio not
th ink so .
,,'hOl'e WIIS thio Iteet i ll£ held? __ In th(' Kl oof .
Are you c erta in abou t. Lhut.? Jlext La t.he Girl!;; ' hOfltel.
On the wo;; t o _ on t.h " roeod on tht' woy to {,lice? -- !l ot on
110 , off the \~ay but near the rand to Alice in other ( 20)
~:ord!; . -_ 'i el> .
Is there a kloof there? Eeco.us e my insLruction~ are tlwt
the kloof in fact i~ below the high school nnd belm'" t.he toi let
for boys , ~IJl"re the toil('t.s Jor boys ore ~i tl'ated . Is that
correct? __ '.L'hcrc is also 11 kloof .
in :i'IIE COl.il.'l: Is thrt. u d i l'f~rent klool-? __ 1 t.nk(' it that.
t he rood leading to tha t end is u kloof .
I do not unde rsteond t.il;Jt reply I nm ofreoia .
fIR Sh,iEYIYA ; I s the n ' !l kloof or not nNlr the c;i rll,; ' hostel ?
I c a ll that urea a klooL (30)
~!Jmt do you unoerst1lnd by !l kloo.!"? -- 'J'hut is wh e r e there i ~
11/ . ..
a river .
And is t.he ploce '",lIicll is neDl' the girls ' hostel or was
it rut.her ordinurily .I.'cfel'red to as t;lC kloof , at Eealdt own ?
No .
"fou '",i l l aGree that you are the only on,., .... "0 rf'icrs to
it. as a kloof? __ 1 ~ould ~Grce .
BY ~!iE COURt' : Ilhy de ;,'-ou call it. a kloof? __ It is because
there is a river there. It. is a flnt ure."l 'tIit.h 1) river .
f8 SK'..iE"!IYA : Belol,' t.h!" vill'l.Ge v:hicn is IIp thcrf! . I t.hink it
is coll .. d Linselihlc . __ !In . (10)
Ie thl" .... llny sprcia J ['<>a5 0n why j "OU r e f'O['['",d to t.his
llIee t ine; llS [\ epcci<Jl :;}cctinC? __ It I,'US bccousf' it. "I<:lG h e ld
during the .schoal OO.l s . !:eetinrs \1erC usunlly held on l1f'ek- endE .
And will you al1ree 'lit.h t:le alSO t.h.:lt this ~·H.' ('ti1l6 was
specifically held to dii3cui3s about. the pr::>ble::ls at. school ,
nUl:lely expulsions? And before you reply t.o t.hat. , ilnrl ulso
about. cOr:lplnints c oncerning new rules '''hich )}",d been introduced
by the principal ',.,hich he said he :nad bo t fro::l Kine William 's
'l'o .... n? ',lould YOIl nGree 1..1\01.. thi~; "'os callce specifically for
those two reasons bU5ically ? __ I (\0 not reme mber thc
sec o!ld point ; 1 e.€;ree about t.r.e firot one .
lind will you also aGree \,'ith !lie tho.t. thi s :neet.inG was
part.icul[l['ly ''''ell ot t ended? -- :lea .
( 20)
'i'he meet i flGl t.hot you referred to , ot.her meetin(js e xcept.
t.his on" \1hich you referr ed to as n cpeciol 'neetinc , t.he
aI/craG" number of persons "h~ nLtendeu t.hosc tlcctin[;s, hOlt
many were thf';Y? In ot.her wo1'ds , the Illc{'tinc at. i ' . E. ilnd the
two l,cp.t.inC;:; in t.he c c11<)r , ar; you said . __ 1 i~USt. corJ'ect you
on this IJoint. that ·"hen YOll 3oi(; t.wo ::Ic{'tin(;s i n t.he cellal'.
)~hcl'e wa!3 only onc ::Iect.in!; in tlw cel l ar . (30)
I 8::1 flO!'!"y . One of tho.se ::w('tin!;s was Int.C'r trll!1sfe n'cd
to/ ...
359 '",u, E .
to the kloof . __ Yes .
those ;neetinp; . - - 'rhe one Dt P. E. t here were very few .
;bout how many? Just an estimate . __ Eight .
I.'hDt about the onE in the cellar? 'there ~Ie re tlwny .
About how much on t.he overage? - - :;0 to 40 .
And wiult about t.h.:> one Vfh ich ~ .. 'Hl held ult.im'lt.cly at t.hc
kloof, as 'you say? __ ~7 to 30 .
And \-Iould you agree I>.'ith !flC if I 3D;}' that t il(> meeting
'.1hich you referred to as a speciul rllccting , had at least (10)
60 people present? Yes ,
And that aL this particu lar meet i ng 'lihich you refer to <,S
a special meetine, tile r€' -"ere ;nore nf''''' jHtl'sons than was the
case l'lith th", other mceti:1t;s , til", three tneeLingG in other words?
'I'here Here ne',1 people .
lIo , \1fu1. t 1 :neun is t his : the' number of n",',' prrson::: at
this pllrticul:lr meetinG 'lion !:lore t.han the number of new pers ons
in the other three Inf'ctings :..:hich you rpfpl.'r('d Lo . - - I ,)id not
notice that .
1I0w \-Iho ,/OJS the first. porson to spE'o'k Ilt t.his ':leeting? ( 20)
Accused 110 . 5. 3 I,nd whot precisely did hE' St.l:i? -- fir st.(Jrted by int.roduct.ioll
~hnt we should introduc e ourselves .
Yes? __ He told us that this was n special I:'leetinc; and he
told us 'that in this r:1e eLif'..(; we should ·.~rit e alit our grieva nc es
and send tIj"m t.o Nl.' Scbe . Our grievanc eG about the school ;
that people are heine; expelled without t anGible r eason .
Is tilat; all? Didn ' t he also ask wnethf'r anybooy present
there suspected anyone of beinG nn infor;n<"r? __ l 'h<'re W115 .
Did he OSlt that ? -- !]o . (0)
fly instruction f~'o:n nccu3cd Ho . 5 is Lha.t he cid in f<Jct
o:Jk / •••
)60 QUi E .
Could he hvvf' svid th8t? ilo you say t.h at h~ n('vc!' snid t.hot or don ' t. you rer.lember? - _ I do not rf'memof'r "that] ;',:ha t I r E;' ::lemhc r
is thot the p"rson who was ::;uspf'ct.ed 01 hf'.inc an infoIT.ler wa::;
SUSjJcct.ed by a.ccuscd Iio . 5 .
Ycs , that is corr ect . 110 . 5 rose and s<lid as 13 r esult of
!lo . 3 huvinG mode that remark . \Jill you nomiL t.h'lt?
not rf'mer.lber . - ---I do
iJo . 5 nOL'leo Sipho 11at.::;hemhOl.i at. thl;\t point . -- Yes , he
W.J:ll"d him . (10)
You D!jree t.hat it is ilo . 5 who mention(,(l th" nan'll' of
['iat.shc::lbozi? -- Yes .
BY l 'EE GOUR'l' ; lic sa i t t.h3t in_chief .
/'8 SJ;<.,IE1IYA : Oh, I see .
BY ~-,J!E COUR'l' : 110 . 5 told us thllt Sipho llatshet:1hol.i is not
trust ed .
liR CINEYlY" : Thank you , H' Loro . Do you know tll" cil'cumstonces
surrounding Il1tshcmhozi beinG suspec t ed? -- Yes .
'h'hot. ',wre the;;? -- It was heca.use Sipho l'iatshembozi ';/05
in Fo r'm fl . So for':;! ;.. ntudents 1..1:(>;.' din nOL J.i).:(' fir (20)
Richt,('r . l'hen I'll' HichtCl' did not tfQ.ch 1,11\:'.-:' j·fr ik aDmr , so he
Do yot: v.nm-l Benj(\!~in llur,i? (!-i() . 12 on t.l\e list . ) I do
not kn()\'.' him by the name of E~lljo.;~in . OUf' I rC::Je[!Jl,,,!· is
11\)u1e10 .
Is libu l(·10 ' s ::.;urn~m" l iusi? -- Yes .
I ar:l in:otruct.ed by th£' IJccused , I sef' the:,! ore nodding
t.!o('ir hpiJ.(is, but nf'nj(Jm:in llusi ~'ntl j·n)ul"lo liusi [II''' same :1 .. person . I am instructed ulno by Dccuserl ik, . 3 , 4 DnG 5 that S
l'ibu11'lo I~si 01' o<=nja:uin 110s i "lso G(l L UJl (It thot. ~1""et.inG ( 30 )
and flsk"d "'hJ flame infOl'r.ll'rs ort> beinG uc;,ten whilst othe rs
like/ • ••
361 ", Ur'E.
like for inst ance Dav i d Ii.:Jt.hi who bOB st('C of beine f enrf G. ,
'.'I c re left. alelle . Do :,-ou r emember that? - - r;n .
Did E~njam i.n Iiusi or ilbul"lo Hwi sp"1k 01" all? -- I do
no L 1' C' :I1" mbe r .
i,nd it is an [l r(>su1t of tlll:'; , in n t. ilf'r wo rds i3C'lljamin
thill nOI,/ not !:luke you rCrlemlJ er 1)(~ 1 ' h~ljl5 ? -- lio , J (;" not
(10)
Did he HI;:I:/ c onc e rninG th" expulsions . thnt sO".lrthilll,; I:Iust
be dene about it? J'f_d that thf' o:pulsions shoul d be stoppe d?
/,n(1 he then ('nquircd f r o,'!! members present whDt should be done .
Do ;j1U deny thb L he said no 01" that ncr tiJ~ ? __ I do not
rcm":n~('J.' him snyinc t h<l t.
'.;e11 , H(;aki sai': \,,11<1 1.. Ha . 5 ill f act did say tha t [\t this
:ne c tiq; . __ I do nO,!...S"Pl i t. , ..!.. only sa;> \..1. " 1,, I do /lot rC1.1c mOc r .
1:0 . 3 alSo deni('5 that at this l:lC CtinC h e said El n.nhine '1 <lbou t milit.or':i traininG . \';hnt. i:; Jour r Uletion t.o thn "L? -- ile
did .eIlY Uw. t . ( 2 0)
ilould it curpri!) e you i1' 1 told you tho.'\, N(!;ak i also -
firs1.1". 1 Idthdraw that . Did i:gaki at.\,cr:.c t his t:lcC't.ine;? __ '{es .
th" ::)('etin[,;s whiCh you a t t ended exc ept. \,h " Port Eli ~"b{' t.h one?
-- 1 did not [l ee him 1)t t he <llee LinG a\' LLe c ella r .
BuL you see him a L tltl:' oth{,J' Lwo , i n oLiwr words , Lhis one
which wo c a fJpe cial l~ectinG ano 1)150 Lhe one which was ulLi::ls tf'l"
hf?ld ilL Lhe k loof? __ Yes .
!;(;lJki was sp<'ciIieally [lakec , !leeor-dine; \' 0 ti ,e nat." <Ihic h
I hu ve here , who \, 1: 0 , .3 accused - n(J , so r !'.)' , iL l'jllS 11 ( 30)
(l tLiLude/ •••
562 ...:WE.
sttitudc about leaving the country was for ruil i tar;:i tl'uining
in the ~Ihole of the $ocond session fmd ': G{lki snid this : he
could not explain his ut.titude and he ·~·ent. further ano said
t hat ];0 . 3 never explained at any meet.ing in the second session
about what. his att.itude is concf'rnine: military trainil1G . \.Iould
it su r prise you to hear that?
BY l'IiE COUIU' : ~!hen d:'d he soy thDt? I '::0uld just like t.o
check my riotes . \ " ;),5 that :in- chief or in cl'OSS _ eXDCl illa tion ?
!'ll Sh,,\;Ei'IYA : 'lhat ~:as in- chief . lie '.-InS beine questioned by
my Len r nl'd jo'ri end . (10)
BY l'l!E COU<U' : Can you refer me t.o the passaE>e ?
UR SI:l,./EYI'iA : 1 am tryinG t.o r<>ff'r t.o Ill:!' not es . 1 IJa df>
s epflrate not.es , thl' onps r \oI~\S r eferrinG t.o .
BY 'i:,E CO URl' : !eo' nato l'f'<lcs : the utLituG.f> of ;';0 . 3 1 do not.
kno .... ' to',lOrds If'oving t.he countrJ . I do not. remember him Givinc
an i nlicotion . f-(y note does not. ref e r t. o :~ilitary Ll'(lininc aL
all.
!-Ill. S",,:EYIY;, : I j us I.. ..,allL La Get :;}~' 110Le . 'rile not. e "Jhich Cly
Lcal'ncd i'rienu hUG here iG t\)i::; : '.:hat was nccused !lo . ';:; ' s
uttitu ue Lo· .... uc{ls lC'!;lvLu6 the countCJ for mil itary tl'(lining ( 20)
- I ;;1m sorry - to under~o milit.ury t.raining dUl'inG t.h(' lotte!'
pal.'t and the reply by Hgnki ~.'Os : lis fur as 1 am concel'ned , I
cannot 53y ~'lwt hi,s atti t ude ~: c.s .
a'i l'HE COURl' : Yes , that followflo on a possar;e where he soid he
rem"wbcl'ed ::0 . 1 , 2 and <I ull SQ:y inC t.lw !. tlwy ~;cn" lcu vinG
t.he counLQ' to undnrGo military traiuiuG .
, Ill. [i1\' .... Eylyfl : I am sorry , 1 Cllnnot find. the pOlSG.:J(';e in my notes .
1 made :::;C'pllrc.te natcr; the rr .
IlY 'lliE COURI' : Yes, put. your question .
!iR 5K'.iEYIYll : Would it surprise j'OU tha t. llc;o ki docr; Dot (0 )
remr mbcl' nnythinc ulJOut llo . j CVCl' jwvir.C :lwnt.ion ",d militory
Lra ininc / ...
365
tt'uining at a mf'e~inG in t;h" second session?
,.!-1i-F..
irs _
j,nd ·::i ll it a1:;0 sur)Jl'ise yo!.; if 1 tell you Lhat :.[;nki
also silid something to t.he effect that. in the wholr of the
second half of Inst yenr at Ee61dtown he does no1- remember
un.ybody saying onything about milit ary truininG? -- Yes .
Did on:icne who was introduced. at this [)leetin!!; or who
introduced hinse1f, tha t is a ne' .. illcmber at :o€ctillgs , ever say
afterwarus , you knOH I<.'hen Lhe meetinG was about to end , lOok ,
I a;n happy to have been ilt. this meeting and 1,0 hear about the
(;000. aims of SASH? -- 1 (:0 not re::'lf':!1ber . (10)
lncidentally , c.enlillG with r:(;uki's evidence aGain , i:CDki
says that there wa.n ment i on of [!!ilitury trai:ling in the first
half of lasL ypur . I am jUGt put.ting ,you in th e pict.ur(' so
that it oops not. se"l:l th,tt r:Gakj IH'V[r ::;a id un,;rl.hinr; "bout
tlilit.;~ry tra in in::: . DI) ;you kr.ow 01' un./ peapl" "ith" r i1'.side
SAm·! or outsid(' S;:",s!! I·rho '.·j ere concE'l'n('(l abot.:t the fact. that
~h{'l'e \,'crl' many child!:'en Drouor] tilt' villnGcs therr> who ;1cre
herdln~ catl.l€' insteud of go inc t.3 scho:ll? - - 110 .
Would it surpril.le you if t.~erc IIE're such people in Sl,S!-l?
Yel.l . (20)
kell, do you knoh' of any pC'ople ei theL' in SAS!! 01' outside
s/,sn ~.'ho ~.'(' re students, I ar.l t~lkillG abouL students, ut
liealdto"m \·~ho ,;ere conc(rw'd rtbout llnn tll educa.t.ion , t.Jlf' qualit.j'
of Bantu education? __ i:o .
Would it >3urprise you o.(;ain Lf in 1'act the r" wer" people
"Iho 'llere concerned Dbout Ban1,u education in Si,SH? - - Yes .
Whut. <Ioout student s Bene rally .. leaviot; usiil " I\QW SA511 ,
"lore there {>ver any diseu::;cions abou t the qualit.;, of education,
tlw.t is Bantu educnLioll, 01. school? __ 1 do not. know.
WhDt ore :four views on Bantu educiJt.1oT'.? Or let me (30)
put it t his \~aJ' : do you like the 1'act Lhut you l1 '1d to Get
0./ •..
3(.11 ",uJ'E .
a spf'cinl lype of educalio:l? Yes .
Sa:; ~lhHt your cO::lplaint is Buoul B:mtu cG.u cl..llio:1 .
BYl'llE COUR'l' : lie said he had no cO::lplaint . You put ;,-our
question 1 think - b~couse he GDve thf' rl'ply _ you said · .... ha t
are your views about Bantu ec.ucat.ion , did ;,'ou like the fact
that 'you had to bet a spf'cial t')'T)e of education end his reply
was ,'Ips .
H,l; 81i· ... EII'U, ; I Uf:! sorry, I t hought. it ',IU ::> the o~her lola;;; around .
BY 'i' iiE <':OUih : Did you hove any cO::lpluint.s about Ba nt.u educa-
tion? -_ Yes .
\'bat. were t.hey? Thfl.t. is ','hat. Counsel '<rants t.o kno ... .
r'(y complaint against Bantu education is t!'wt the t.yp es of
educat ion i s not t he same .
(10)
;,s? -_ i 'here i::; Buntu educat.ion 81](1 \,here is educat.ion
for whites .
IIR Sr;1.:El;HA : I,/('ll, t>esioel;l youl'self , do you krV)H of <Jl'.yone
else who hf'ld t.h(> same vi"",1IJ t.hat you hove jus t. (>xl'ressed now?
-- 1 1J1ready ::;aid I do not )motY .
1.'<'11, i:Guid :lGain sidd th:,t. necused ];01;> . 3 (!nIl ~ cf'rtainly
had such vic':ls about Ba ntu educat.ion . lif' say::; they fel\' (20)
st.roI16ly abou t Ban tu f'rlucat.ion . i.nd thp.t in fact t.hey said
th i s Dt mc ctinr;s as ',,' el l. Would t.his surprise you? -- f :"_,:,, :, _nOn".l.o ;;;mClllb e"IJ
\..Iould it. surp r ise you if accused lIos . 3 ami i l in [act
did expt'llss such v ic\~s at. SASH meet.incs ? __ llo .
Still on t.his t.opic , do you kn0l1 of nn,y s tudl>nt..s who
ever €xprt'sspd a wish to GO a nd st.ud.)' O'H'J'Seas? III tliscu ssiom;
(,; e neral l y . __ Yes , 1 onc e heard 11 c onv ers ation, GPllcral
conv"'rsation .
Wes any of the ncc uscd nllyonf' of t.hoD!' persons ( 30)
involved in such conversation? __ Ilo .
Havel .••
365 ,N,-E.
Eave you ever hf'3rd of ;ony !:10etin[iS of S.\StI w!it'rE' people
present discussed and €-xprN,sed conc('rn about t.riba1ism? __ i;0 •
.,'ou1d it surprisE' you if t.her'· ~I(>re in fDct .. 1c p tings
there by SASH where thf'y uiscussrd qucstions like t.ribalism ?
No .
And '/J ould the 5al!le be the position ·/Ii\..h rc(;nrcs c.ivision
on a regiomil b:lsis? 1 be1ipve thl1.t nt I:('(lldtOl'ln t!lf>ir wer('
divisions '01) a 1'<:,(;iona1 basis :md student::; trnd'!d to Gat.iler
in terms of rE'gions olld students l'f'sent.rd thin . - - les .
Let us leave tll1l.t for a mOTn"nt . vo .you kilO'," of " (10)
IJcet.inG in Port Elizabeth ,·:hich '.ms held Ht. Park :"tal!iu:~? __ Yes .
'.; ere uny of the ac cused present ot t.h(1t. IJeetinl3?
',,'ho ~Ierc presen~ of tnt> accusE'd? -- 5, 4 and 5.
Yes • ., c.,
And 'IIou1d you say th1.lt 3 , 4 8:1.(! ::. p10yed un nct.iv·" rol e r i!1 this meetinG? - _ I can SHY 3.
Th":t \~ere concerned, isn't that so, about. thf' f;).ct. that
tlley were not at school , t.he,)' hod bCPI) expell ed at. school and
they wonted to (;;0 back to school <lnd be educat.ed . ls that.
correct? i10 .
And they were so concerned that at thot r::Iecting ( 20)
it wos the view that parents of the students in P. E. should
be approached so that the;,' coul e. go to the authoritie::l 81.
iiea1dtown and ask the:;') to re_ac!rnit you . -- SorJ'y, the ::Icetinr;
you are referrinG t o , is not the onl' 1 a1.t.er.ded .
1 alll rcferrinc; to the r.weLing: at Park .3t.Cldiu1I . 1 hDd not
ackee you <lbout. a oeetine; at :lome other Flace . - - I am talkinG
nbout t.he on!' r.lf'ctinr; at the j>(lrk . Such thil\Gs Wf'.l'e not
discussed .
1,.!h~\t ',!as disclJ::lscd at. t.hi:l r.leet.inG ut 1-'flrk St,.,dium , if
<.Inythillt;? DO)
OY 'tHE COURl' : 1s this tl:t> meetinG thai he /itt.cndrd?
lut/ . ..
366 ~.l!t. t. •
N,,1. :;ii'':F.1EA : j\t I..he l '8rk ot(Hliu:n, [1' ..... 01'<.1 .
bY 'li,y' GCIJR1 : lIid h fi' Bttt"!IQ Lht' :lIcetine; 1'1. .. ark ~t.ocium? _ _ 1:1'9 .
'lhf're it. ·"I.lS disc1,;sscd t ha t, we shou l d keep
t he ex istenc e of tl!l:! :!lovement i ll see n.'t . 'j.heo the othe r Lhing
1;'8S t hat other peoplf' should go and v is i t allother br1lllch in
Y.~lazakf'lf> . It was d"'cided that accused 1'0 . 3 ano 11 ami Vuyo
BS!f'ni should vis it t b)\.. SASH bL'anch .
'l'his was now at i-'ark Stadiu:c you say? -- Y"G .
And you SllY that the sa:u€' ttines you 1l.l'1' now 311'nLion i ng
weN' disc1.Is(l!'u in 8 me "tins: \;"hic11 1'1'85 hl'1d in .P . E . at (10)
Vuyo :&aleni ' s ho:ne? -- I do not knolo: , I ~.'es not present at a
meet ing at Vuyo 13.71 ",ni ' 5 home .
And you say tllllt thin mee t. inc; 01 course whic:'1 you at.lended
at Park S t.adiu:1l \~as t.cld _ ',I(H) i t held in l.he oi>l'n? -- [;0 .
',Jh('re ~I1lS it hflc? __ On t!ll' [)tand 01 the sLaciu"~ .
Yes, but it WDS public . l 'her€" er(' no c.oors tll('r(' , you
werE' si t t. i n(; on the Ior:ns providec. ti:l're . J5 tllat. correc t.?
Ycs .
imd Wh0 clsc ";as at. this 1it'''1.ing? ibdio Dippn , .. aikc
Faas , Afri c a Sulplo, Zllkill:' 11.<; 1. 'l"ho t. is a l l. "lid (20)
a ccuspd iio , 3 , 4 and 5 .
And anybody who 'llent past. th!'"rp the stac.iur.l , CQuld have
seen you sit tin6 t.h"re , Is tha t corrpct? __ )"1;'5 .
1 must snj" t.hot 1 fail to und('rst.und why anybody would
t he n soy t. hD "\. th e e x is t. ence of t.ha t. mpf't.illt:; should be k{"p t.
a sec r et .
thp people .
He L'H'Dr,t t ho"!' w(' should not. l.nlk about t.h1s t.o
\..'ould you Ilg r ef" 'lIit.h me whpn I 5a~' to you thot. it was
neve r S/\Sl-! ' s polic y that all I,."h i tes "ll p r e pnp:nip$ ()f tl.e IHack
pe r sons? __ Yes .
And t.his was st.at..,d even a t. IDPe t inGs . _ _ I do not
r pr.l(';nber! •• ,
(30)
367 .... U.r'E .
r Cl:lelllbf'I' .
Do you reI:letlbe r 1. l. e cny , t ho:> first. oa:,' \"/hen you C8:t'lE' int.0
court h(' :,c, ..... hen you refU5f'G to give f':vid"nce? __ Yes .
lOU ... ere asked '1IIu' t her you ev{'l' joined wh i lst ~L j:ealdtown
an organ isation , Olnd your reply was ' yes ' . __ Yps ,
'l'hen you '0'1('1'(> !lskf'd ldlat orr;anisation . YOJ; t!;l'n said SASi·i .
Yes .
You "'ere t hf'1l asked wha t fiflSr-t stood for ano yOU." reply to
t hat vias Blu c k consciOUSilf'SS . __ Yf's .
',;}jat did you Illean by t.l18 t 7 -- 'lh,,\. :neens that ;lOU (10)
mus t be c onscious of lou r c olour , of Df'inS Bla ck , and t hen you
should love your people and l i vf' in \,lldty "lith the::! .
And that i n facL you should involve yourselves after ha vi ng
don f' tha t .. (interVf'fi(>s)
BY 'lEE COlirtl' : Didn ' t you put this all t o hin, on'lhul'!JddJ"
1 h"vp a distinct. l'cc'Jllection of '111 th<>se qu('st.ions b~ill(l put
to him .
lirt Si-..,lE"iIY/, : 1J1e c k c:ms c iotlslIE'sS , 1,' Loro, t.he m<>~'ning of
Blac k c ons c iousllPSS ? iI ' Lord, I o:~ t.01c t.het. t.11", OIl f'S leading
up t o t.h.,s(' qu",stions I di6 ask , but. not t.h" sp"'cific (20)
QUest i ons abou t. ElHCk c onsciousn('ss .
5' '!hE GOUlr, :
11:1 Sr..~,!E'iI Yf.. :
BY 'tHE COUItl' :
I-1R SK'':F.YI Y A:
1 reme!lbel' all t hil:> int.roduct.ion beinG put. .
Bu t I did not ask him about Elflck conscious:less .
1E's, go on .
'l'hank you , WLord . Let. us no~: ceol ;Iit.h your -
I a1:l sorry _ tha t in fa c t you should involve ,)'oul'sE' l vel:> in t. h('
s tru~gle of the Bla c k people . __ Yes .
'1ho1, you should os far os possible )wlp wherE' you c vn?
Yes .
1'0 t.he ext.en t tim!.. in f ne t at one sL~,,;e S/,SiJ W<lS (30)
even thinkine; o f organising a r"€dinE; schrme Il l.. schoo18 wLE' r E'
t. hE' 1' '''/ ...
368 ... til'E.
thl>rp "las no feedinG schellP .
assist thp nolinn, I agref' .
":Les . sinc(' we ',Jere trying to
Let us deal wit.h ihf' ;nE'('tinfj ()f in !' - ~Iour first .'JPcling .
On which dot.e do you say this :l1!'eting 11'>18 helli? -- 19th
Sept.ember .
And your decision t.o join SAS!l 1 t.eke it ,,'as befa:'€' that.
day . -- Yes .
llecause of discussioml you had hlld ;.;itll Gqujel« . __ Yes ,
... nd t.his discussion 'dUS only bct. ... ('en t.h e t.wo oJ you . --Yes .
uid Gqajf'la say at. 1my St.;;!;f' t.o you wiwt t.ype of (10)
organis<lt.ion hI' want.ed you to join \';)Wll hf' spokf' to you? -- i~e
said a st.udent.s ~ovement .
I,nd hp bave you t he a ims of courSe , wit.hou t. :nentioning the
n a.!:!€' of the stud .. nt ~ovem('nt . Yes .
And he Jlen1..i(')ned thf' two aims to you tho'\, you hove just
g iven to t.he Court . __ Yes .
;,nd ,you sa,y that GqajE'la ~:(l.s a clos(' friend of yours . __ Yes .
You ',;ouIr1 expf>c~ hi:n not to r.ljr;leuci ;IOU . -- 110 .
IOU ',-I ould e xpec-:,. him also to confide in Y(lu? __ 'ies .
T~Tho 1lccOlUpanica you to this r:lf'ctine? Accused llo . (20)
3 and 4 _ 1 ',;as a cc ollpanied by only accused Ho . 4 .
I.i(>re you al'>.kine; a mistake whE'n ;"ou ",TI'e ~pntioning accused
11o . 3? __ 1"S . t., .... ,
Accused No . 4 only? __ Ycs .
well , my i nst ruct ion rrom accused No . 4 is tlm1. he did llot
acco:npany you in the sense tha t he 'Ilent t o ff'teh you fro_1I ,your
ho~(' to GO t o a meeting . 1J0 you ogrep 'di"\.ll t het? __ j,ecused
Ho . 4 ',;os in the COin;13ny of Gqajeln .
qy im,1.ructions from accused Ilo . I; are thE'S" that you <lnd l.+
Gqaj<>la ;tieL him on till' way ,end you 1.hf'n ,,11 wal'{t'c (30)
Lo!;cthcr . ;1(W1. do y::.u SHY to that? Gould it. lwvf' hopp(>nec.
that/ ...
'69 3, l.t-E .
thD\. wey? -- No .
Wha t. type of , C1.J)" ""HS t.his? was it , clf'ul' CiJ~' , , ra ill'y
dB;'", 0 cloudy day? __ I co not. rf'.'lIE'IJbpl' .
Could it have been drizzling? __ 1 t.l'Jink it ,~aB jus t after
rain .
BY 'i'EE coual ; 'h'ha t. ·;.'us your qupstiO:l?
I'a Sh'..;EYUJ. : Could it havp be('n drizzlinG ? -- 1 t.hink it, ~!as
after r a in .
When you E'nt.ereo i h€' cel lar , as you Bey, ""herE' this
:neetinG ~:as held , did an.?l.>oGJ soy any t.hing ? - - "les . (10)
!""ho? __ Accused No. I .. and Gqajela .
'';ho.t did they BUy? -- A!tIan<lla (it :nNlnS strengt.h)
Did the;.' sa:; it. t ogether a t. the same ti::Jc? __ Ho t
simultaneo\J:31y .
You do :"lot knnw ·.~ho said so fil'S'!.? __ Ho .
ISn 't t his e usuo. l form of Gr eet-ins nNlac.a'y~ among :/oun6
people? tic t. ne c es siJ.rily sD,":dng ' A~~11lld18 ' in ~.hozu , but saying
' Fo'"rer ' . in f-ngl i sh . Isn ' t it b usual thing? -- Lo .
'.:",11, 1 hove hEUrc. it bf'i:lg used . t'nJ"wc:; , I (;:0 not giving
evidcncp . '~; hflt is the next. t.hing which happened ef t pI" (20)
you ent.ered thi~ c ellar?
y,.,~? -- 'l"bp!} a sent; was sung .
Only Olle ~ons:? \.JPI"P UH? rp athpr sonGs ",Illich \;rre sung
thnt dny? -_ 'I here ",'pre .
Songs like? _ Um~onto .
Yf>s? f"Juyibuye E Afrika .
Yes? '1'hat. is 1111.
Ever been at a meet..ine; where H\o:osi Sikilf'le j frikIJ IHI5
also sung at. a meet.ing by SASH? __ 110 .
!"iould it. surprise you if 0 1.. .1 SJ\L/-l mpf'ting h}:osi ~ikilele( :;: \
Afrik1J was SUIl!;':? _ _ !lo .
iJo/ • ••
370 ::.,!Jj-E .
lIo you know of any me{'t.ing wh e re - do you kno~! a son!!;,
firstly, by t!1(> narn'" holy l..> p irit. :~us t c o;!!e dowf!? __ les .
~'h is is D SOllg ~.'hich is usually sUllg at Sell meetings . Is
that. correct? -- Yes .
'l'he next line of t his song r eae s ' knd Afric<l will be
saved' . Is t.hnt c o t'cect? -- Yes .
I aro instruc1.ed by a l l t.h E' a ccus E'd that this song wos also
sO::::Jet.imes ·sunC; a t SJlStJ mf'l'tings . __ I t waH never sung nt thE'
meetings which 1 attendee .
";(luld it surprisl' yrJI.I if this PlJr~icular S Oll g ,
"l'h" Hol y Sp irit. must C(lm!" (1()' .. :n ' was " v"r fiUtlE: e t. i< GASH
meeting ? -- Ho .
(10)
,,:hy was Gqaje1D expe ll!::d? __ Ee "';as a t the gi rls hostel
at nigh t \\'hich is r egard ed as un offence by t.he scJ,ool
lluthorities . So now he assault ed another gi rl t.h e re a t. t.he
$chool , sayinG t.hat she acted in a Sill y manner t.oward~ him
at the Gi rls' host.f'l at niGht .
Ho·,~ Gqajelu is you r friend . -- 1('6 .
Do you know whether tIll' fact that h (' was expelled ever
worri('d hi:a? -- Yl's . (20)
f,nd do you kno~1 \\'h(>ther he ., .. ould hav e liked t o go on wit.h
his educaticn ? __ Yes .
hnd in fact Gqoj!'la hod a sister 'Iho .,:as in Br)t.sl"ana or
was rithpr a teacher or II social work"!: . Isn ' t t.ha t so? 1
t.hink he must hov E' dis cussed t.his '~'ith you becausf' you .;e re
friends . __ He nf'ver t.old :1le abou t it. t.hat h is sister "'US in
Botswnna . HI' only t.old me tha t. his sist.eL' ~!8S in Zambi!J .
Did h ... t.ell you "Iha t. his sis t er was coin!:; in ~I' r:lbia ?
lie V)ld ~ e tha "\.. she was teaching .
And d i d hI" also t.ell y.ou tlwt. his sist.f'r ',las ',11'11 (30)
trav"'ll('d in thf> c oun trip s in I Lricfl? __ rio .
'l ha t./ ••.
3?l '5o U:rE .
~'hat she had ::1/)0Y cont!lcts? -- he only sRid zhf' is
pt'o:!linen t.
BY 'diE GQURl' : he only said shC' "'1JlJ ? -- ¥l'o:DiIH.nt .
Yrooinent? -- Yes .
1m. SK' ... EYli·J.. : Didn 't. h ~ also 58:; thut. she knew of sou rc es , you
know, abou t scholarships or bursari f's ? -- GqaJpl o !lir.ls .... lJ?
les, in discussion . 'l 'ha L t.h e sist"r knew . _ _ i.o , he
nev e r told ::It' .
Did t::e f' ve r express a wish t.hat. he ~lOuld have loved to go
and join th l;' sister? -- lie once said that . (10)
Did he tell you how close t h .. rf'lat.i ollship w«s between
himself and his sister? -- He told I~e thot. he ' ... ·05 olde r t.IHin her .
Let us j ust c ont inu e and comple t. e abou t. thf' r.l,,{;ting in the
cell a r . YOI.: say that t.hen t here ,.;us sir,gi:-.g and so on . __ Yes .
An,yt.l:inG else hESicclJ sinGir:c? -- Y('fL
j.,·hat (lIse? __ Accusec 110 . 3 s t. ooii up and s,Ji d nn:c01lers
shou l d introdu ce thf'Dselves .
Yes ? __ So we stood up and '.1E illtl"Oducf'a OUI'SplV('5 .
Ldd en,:,l!Od,y s ay anyt1line ... [t.('r you 1w.<.l inl.r"Jo'ucf·d you r _
selv(,s? __ Y{,5 . (20)
Yes, ~!hat ~Ias so i d ? __ bo:neon(' said - 1 do not. kn')w his
na;ne - that it. is cn rk hFl'f', 11 candlf' 15hol..16 iJ .. l it awi he
enquired if t1lere h'8S anyonE' ~Ii~h a t orc!l .
Isn ' t tha t SOI:lf'onp Ho . 5 in flJc1.? lJian 't tio . 5 pf' r hap s
say t.hat look, it is too cork herf' , 1 sha ll [;0 aIle fet. c h a
candle? __ He declured hi:ns e li eI 1. er 1.hn 1. so.'Debody .
But t.hi 3 so:neboc.y did not ask hi:n t o go end r{'tch a c <lndl e?
Yes .
You say tha t of course ]{gak i '::es pn·scnt. at. this :;!('et.inc?
1;0 . (30)
BY '~jiE COUiU : Lid 111' say LJI1lL?
llll; . . .
372 .... L~ E .
;.)[l SK .• EYIYA : I t1111uGht. hf' said SQ ,
BY 1'li1': GO"JR1 : I (10 not thin": you ehnulc put i \.. to him unlf's6
hf' (iid . ;.ccoraing 1,1) mJ 110t,P$ IH' did not .
IIR HUiJ.Eil. : H ' LaI'd, if I may bf' of assist-nace , tht"' witnf'ss 's
evicence in that lle;uki was not prf'st'nt ill thE' CE'1':'8 r llnd <I t
thp meeting ill Port. Elizabeth . 'lhose e L'e t:l-€ t~·:o !:lEe ex"'res s ly
pxcluded .
Dr ~hE (;CUffi : Yes , and in h i s evidpllcc _ in_ch i E'f he .~pnt i oned
a lot of '.U::les and Hguk i ~!as not u~onGst t.hc~ . ~ou !'Just be
cnr('ful hoI'; Y('U phrus{' your qUpstiOllS. 'iliis is th ", (10)
second OCC'lSiQll upon ",hieh 1 heve had t o remind you the t the
l<!itnf>ss did not say ""hat you say he said . '.i'bat is no t []
per;nissihle way of cl'oss- exur.1inin5 .
fiR SK' .... EYHA : I am instruc t ed by - "HIS 'i'~'81a prf'spnt.? -- 1 do
not. even }:no'll '.iyela .
'~thot about fllricR SuleIo? __ lie was prpser:t. .
Do you kno'~' a person knOl·m e.G llkululo '.l.'yalr;? __ lin .
\!ell, 1 am instrtctl'o 111Ut. '.I.'yal<J w,",s in fact prf's("nt 9 t
this :nef'tins in th(' c ellar . Africa 5ul1'10 CO you lmo'''; hi::!?
Yes . (20)
'.iss he present at this :Ilef'ting? __ Yes .
~hat acout 16jov~?
And l:aninzi Nxuh ?
lip ',,'05 present .
1 do not know hi:n .
BY '2IJE COUiU' : You do not know him or ;"Oll do not. kno·,.' i f he I-Ial)
prelJent ? _ _ I do not. know him .
Ha 5!:' .. E1: IY f, ; '~hnt. about Goyiss , ','US hI" present? _ _ "ips .
Now nn/bocy el!.lE' SUI 1lllJ' t.hine f'lse 1't. this 'llf'et.ir::g? __ "ips .
'..iho? __ Geyisa .
wha t did he say? __ lie r ecit.ed "' poem called Garimp i.
Of coursE' you [Joy t hat you do n o t kno'" wh,..,thrr (0)
this Wor{~ is n Xhoza l'1Ord Ot' sOr:le o tlH'r lansucgf' . __ I do lloL
kIlO~I/ • ••
373 .. ,li.'E .
know .
" Is i\. Gari[~pi or Gari ulbi ? ItJi - :"_ p_ i .
Do you kn(l'll of a Kenian 'II'oro kno'll"n as '~a ~'i;:)lli'? i;o .
Are you all II' to say ~Ihot the words of tbis poem 1-1E'l."'e? --
I hu.ve said I uo not remer.[b!;r the actual ',~ords .
I f I suy 1.0 you t hnt on e of the v('rc;('s of ~JlI'1. pOf":n r('I)c.s
thus : I am ill se8J:c h of II :1)an . Do yo")lJ H['iree I·:ith LJwt firstly?
lIo you rl'::ember t hat? Ho .
" .. hat kind of a man ' . \.10 you I.'emrmb!'l' I.llose ~Ior(]s inside
this pOCUl? __ Yes , maybe 1 ',Jill be able 1.0 l.'ellf.:'!Ilbcr if (10)
you have read all thE' v erses af> a ·,lholE' .
Yes, l(>t Ine jus t ge t t he whole VE'l.'se t hen :
" I 8::l in search of a i"lnn
1. ;;H>n with the hei:irt of a stO!1e
I, :nun to whO:Il pol i tics is 1.h(' If'IlSL
u.nd struGsl!; t he r:los t . "
Can you rel:H' mber t ha t? -- I can rernemoE'l' bt:t; not as the words
Gould it hu.v" bern fro:11 1.hos" ·.-Iordn, t he v{'rs'" which 1
have just rcad tn you, that you camE' t..o this crmclusion . (20)
namely tlwt thil> poeJl IWS a calli!lg to blHck Jl('n t o stand up
and figh t f~ r our l·Qrrfll1.h{'rs ' l a nd? __ If you l"PiHl fur\.he r
ilnd complete that VIol'Se, I l'IQuld say t.hut is whDt y'lU have
JUSt sa irl .
T~' f'll, thaI. is al~ I havf' about tl.", pnrJl .
BY 1. liE COl,,11' : Is thnt the I-I hole poem? Is tlwt WhDt. ,you ore
put t inG to him?
£"1 ~:i{f, COUtu : 'l 'he wi1.nf'ss S[)ys if Y0U rNld t.h(' ~lhoIr· poem ,
you will find thot -,Ih(lt lw says is C(}J:l'CCL . (0)
Ha S"'1,,EY1'iA; 11 0, this is no\. th(' 1-1ho1(' pO('r:l , it is D vrrse .
1/ ..•
374
I am askinG :'"OU l<I'h f't.hf'r ;:H'l'i!0P13 .rroJ] Lhes", words you could
not hove COlle to t he conclusion whicl • .you l.'aid you CUll(, \'0 .
YF'S , l>ut. his r f'pl,Y is if ,you l'f'l)cl fur'l.!ler
and co:~plptf' t. hat verse , c'lmplf't.E" t.he PO!>r:I , I wou ld D'JJ' 'that.
it. is .
J-m t:h"l-.EY I YA ; \..' f' vlil l hnvp th" '~'hole pOf':lI 18t..I:r , btl\. at tb~
(Qor:Jf'nt \,'P do not h ave th " 1,'hel£' pOf':n .
In 'l'liE l.;o(J[n : l'here is no po i n t in put:l"ing to hill OJ:f' V("I'Se
and tbf'n saying to hill does "his jus tify the c'Iic:i.enc f' ',:hi::: h
you Gave in- chief which is the effec\' (')1' yOU I' crot;5- (10)
examinat i on . The '"itnesG roays yes , but 'there ore o t he l' verses .
HR SK'riEl.'I'lA : I r eali(;e t. hif< and I c a nllot. t.oke it ICny further
on thal. 'l'he point I wan t. t o ask hir:J Dbovt reoll~' v:as \·:hether
in fact this is the san!' poc:n lI' i1.11 1.he:;.- ;.;or(:s, so th:Jt ',e
nre trying 1. 0 I!;f> t th" ;Ihol e poe'~ .
BY 'l'JiE GOU!?l' : Yes . but you hav e h .. rl your on:s ' .. :er thus far fro~1
him .
J~S li'Lord pltosps . ;Ill;,-booj! rIse 1.>1oIi6 all.,lhint;
,,15(> at. l.hi.(; mc<>tint.;? __ Yec .
Y('s, ~Jhn f'lst? __ hccuseo \;0 . if . it ( 20)
\'"hut.. dir} he say ? __ ~hn1. hf' had b"!'!l t? I, l ic!' and he
cOllscicntis(d tll{- llUl'3es .
BY 'lliE (;OU'~l : 'lh", ll"Jrs('s o r IJ !1'Jr:w? __ I t.hink 1.' .. 10 nu rses .
I"~ SJ-...,,:EYlYA : Is tha t all ? YN; .
Lid you gf't the i:::Jpression thDt. No . 4 ; i8S g i ving a report
on what h e had bf>f'n osked t.o do in 101 previous .'llPf't.ing? __ Yes .
I s 1.hat. all t.hat 110 . I; said v.t this :OPf't.inG? __ Yes , t.hat
I Gtill r elll!'rnbel' him GDying .
llOybody else 13aid 8nything ? __ Khol ,'J>;il!' "J.'I'tO .
'lhat i13 til" ;:Hlll ~'ho t;UV~ t 1)(> l'(>port [,bf")ut 'li::1!.Jt<no ? (30)
Yes .
ofside:;/ ••.
.,LJ F. .
Besides him , o llJb odj· els e [l o i d n:l;,"t.hinr; n1. l.his m'" \.in(;?
__ I do not. rc:nc;nbeI" .
I,ny of l.h" I;l.ccused sDid <In,}'t.hing a 1. this m€' f' .. inc ':" __ 'leB .
Yes, which uccu~('d? jcccused !lo . 3 .
I';hat. did he slly? __ Iw propos~d 1.1l"t. t.h" :~c'"'t.ins should be
]s .. hat. all? -- iie Gll ie when co ing 1,.0 l.ile uOl'."Ili1.0rics
""' c shou l d· no t.. GO in croups .
Is thut Illl? -- Yes .
;Inybody elsf' suiu Iln,ythinc, uny of t he I;lccusf'd SDid (10)
anythil"'..[ ot this meetinc;? -- j,ccusca ,lo . 3 . :i(' t."ld U1> about
the two phases .
·ics? __ 'l'h"t. is tr.f' fi~'st. phnsf' t.a ',.,c conscious ond the
sec('nr. phose> to }pnve l.he cnuntFJ for ::lilitllr;j trn inin5 .
lleetinG IH' spokf' Ilbout :oilitl1r.)" trDil~ilb a t' 0 1,. I.;.n;; at.hl r
to that ? __ 1 did not deny - 1 no not IlG l'f'e .
lie als" denies ~vcr r.l"n1.iflllinc; on;lthin[; about l".:o phases .
WhlJ1. is your revction t.o l.hnt? __ 1 do !lf)1. ag r ee . (20)
He says thClt at t.his r:lr>eting und in mony o1.her i.:J p t1.ings of
~AEj·j he uhwy r. s1.ress!'c. t n!' foct tha t you stu(lents mUH t. I p~ rn
about. t.he- people 's problem£; Olle nbout; l.h" !,!;cnrr1J l si tuo1.ion in
South ,fricu . wna1.:s you r reaction to l.ha t ? -- Yes .
/,nn hr> Dlso soys l.hnt h" suid t h{lt. wiwn you have known
abou t t he problc;:zs of peop le in vDrious erelJs aile places , ,)'ou
;!lust involvt' Y0ursclf 1>;; tryinc; t.o help . '~Jn.t is your l'eaction
to t.hat? __ Yr>s .
Could h e perhaps I:HV{> soie this at. Lh i s ."Il!?"tinG bu t. t. ha1.
)'ou co.nnot rC'lIwmber \,,,het.h"r h" s a id i t. or noL? __ Y"s ,
it Could have been said .
111/ •••
(}O)
376 ' iLl E.
rE' you abl<l jll."rf.apc: in · .... hat lOI1(;uagf' Bccuz!'d 110 . 3 '..: az
speakinG a1. that mef'tint;? If you cannot., Gay so . __ b!" :::Iixrd .
An d he could have (>v(>n used l..!J.c · .... or e ' u:nDbalazn ' ? -_ 1
do not re~ember .
BY 'l'liE COU,n' : 1.~hat does t he ~i ord -n ron?
Nil Sll.~~EYIYA : .s tru{Ssl ing Or struGGle . 1 <l" n o t kno~1 "bou\, th~
Interpre t er . __ Yes , 1 scre E' , tl'Lord .
31 'I'JJE t:O~lc~' : You !in;, ;JOu cannot n :m€:;)ber ? __ IPS .
Hi? ShwE'iIY:, : Could anybody at t his ~pet.ing have tls('d (10)
tha t ~rord ' urnzabelazo '? -- 1 do not re:tlE':nuer .
Is t.hat ,,11 thBt you reIll€"llb('r ',.;h i eh 1;0 . 3 said at t his
Or do YOll say tha t he could not hovp said tl:1,Ythin!: else?
-- 1 do not remember .
'.,'rIl , 'you r :ner.lOry is vpr:; 61101'1,. . B{'c<!use on I h1." " "3 - it may 0(> Wednesdil,y . I 8:n n ot st:rp - you said thflt. occused
No . ;; said tllet thp ;nf'eting W'J:'> not 1'01.' b~b i f's but for ::!f'n
and thllt j'OU should l~~f'p th" '-.xist"llcP of tll!> ::IPf'tinG a Sf'cret .
(20)
Is it possible that h~ actually :'lever said thos~ words or
that you arc mixing thot being said by somebody <'lse .... ith what.
in f<Jct wos said 'by thl' accuspd? lie nid say thut .
he hi:nself? Y(,3 .
well, he denies t h'lt he said tha t Lh e meet.ing is n()t for
bab i es bu~ for men .
'..iould this be a eonv<"nient. stage 1'01' You r Lord:.lhip?
BY 'l!:~ CQUH'J.' : Yes , 1 U:tI just.. tryinc; t.o find my notes in
regard to t !m t point <;0 find out. which ::If'eting .
3
I'm SK".EYHA : It is after he hod lis t ed the names of t.he (30)
persons \o'h o we!-'" 1'1'Csen t Dt the meeting . '.ihe firs t :lleeting , t he
very/ ...
~
3'17 ilil. . Vf'I"'j i'iL'St :~f'ctin6 .
BY 'rIlE t:OL' lh' ; lie li~ted ttf' nam"'s and lilf'n llf' c<Jid _ th e
witnf'ss said that 1lIf'E'tinc is not. for babies but for men and.
w, zhoulu kl'f'p t h, ex istE!lCe of the r.l eet.iu[; secret . 'lilat was
00 t h, C]tl! Jlmf' t..tw t. he said l!:o t .
'l'HE GO UR'J. AlJJ OUHLS ~CR lEI" 'lEE ('CLi(~ ,U",lJiJi':!;S .
DO!! IlLtil;aISEJ.,}:l"l JOi;0'.'lY.::iE <, t1: 'E ; >slill ur:o,;e r oatt~ :
Fliju'EER (;nOSS- D.AlUi:J~'_IOI: B1 In, Lr;"~;Enli\ : J ust. l''':1in6 'ne ogu in .
I put to you that 110 . 3 npni<"s, sa;yine t b('l. t hat [;1",I' 1.i.l1G in .3 th e cpll"r -"'[,5 nn t f'll' bnbi"s but for lI<"n . L,lln ;-'QU (0)
rer.lf'rIlb E'l' whf'ther hf' s~id tti5 0:: n o t o r c 1J n't you rf'::1!"r:ber?
-- I r e;ne!llber t hat he ~id say that .
1$ there anything else No . 3 said a t. tilis oJl'f'ting ?
''; e chould k!? ep th e existencE' of til .. mf'" tin(5 U S<'>Cl' f' 'l, .
Your o'nelllol'y dot'S not Sf''';;] 'l,(, 1.>., .so cood t. odb.Y . Is Lh<J t; so?
( 20)
\.1'11, you c nnnot l'f';;]p:rtb€'l' ::>o;~" Ulille; \ .. thich « 1 5<) ,'Iou said
on the 9t h o f this :lionth hpl'e in c ourt . __ \,':1/> L?
constitut.ion or.d tha L if unyone wonLS it , he J~USt. ebt."in i L "5 £1'0::1 hi~1 or 1' ccc;se() 110 . II or Gqujf'lLl . __ "if's .
You cannot r f':1'If'Tl10e:r this 'tlhich 'you s a id Oil thp 9 th . __
I rE't:lf'mbE'r now .
imd Nould you u@;::-ef' ... i t. h r.w Li.« L '~'hE>lI you I!f' ve "vidence on
th ... 9 th, you ,<Iprp 6 i v int; E>vidf'l1c<,> ubout pv(' nL::> ,·,h ich occurr ed
and t hings ',liJich ~: e re said lasL ::;/'8 r? __ ·ir-s . (30)
Is th~L ull th!' pa rt ~:hich _ ul1 t:lOt. whic h \·;;J.S ple-yed
by/ •..
3'78 ... La . •
by <lccus(>d 110 . :3 [It tl:iu ::If'I'ting? jlarl"ly ·,:h<, t. ;r-r,u b~ v <> sa i d
in court t.od oy and ~JhiJt 1 :>oid YOIJ t.oduy 101(;ot.? -- l tG .
I,lf!ll, you uls o sllid on 'lhursdIlY , the 9 t.h, tha t. r;0 . ~.
stood c: p and int roduCEd Gayisa as the po.;> t. eJ SASH. Il id t.hn t
in fac t happen? -- Ye~ .
'lou hov<> I;lso forgott.en a bou t thaL. - _ I f you s",id in t he
tha t you ';"erl' told t o say so:nE'thing about oceus eo iio . 3' .
BY '1llE COl' R'l' : I do not fo llow tha t r eply . _ _ CounsE-l said
when 1 sp oke of Gllyis[: i n t.h" bpginninG he W i S told t.o (10)
talk, I to ok it thu t 1 !J1.ld iJl r !'ady :lI('nti(]:l<>ci thet t!c c uspd No . ;,
t old Guy isa to speak .
1m SK'':EYIY,, : VeFj well , ',oj E ;..ri ll (';0 on t.o the next poin t. .
Bes id es t.he a ccuse d , a nyonf> of the accuSf'd . (l i d flnybouy FIse
S;lf!ak nt this mef'tiue;? __ Yes .
~;ho spok€'? __ 'l'hf' :ne:nbcrs inL r ouucint t.he:~r; (>lve~ .
Yes, 1 U[~ talk in~ about. peop l e ',;hn 5po%e at t his .1Ipe t.i lJE; .
- - I do no t. re~~~ber .
You 0.0 not c"mf'r.lbf'r tlllyllOu,)' f'lse r; !\.;rillG any t hiug ? Ho .
'J ell , I ~Iill rn:nin<'i :' OU (l5uin . You nls o said on (20)
thf' 9 th tha t Gqajf' l fl r;t ood up (HId l;(l.i(1 accused :5 :mG s (l id
!' vprything :md thot th e r" was no USE' f or him to say anything 1-and tr.a t th", only thing to do no,,' was t o bO for mi litnr;,'
train ing . Yes .
Ha ve you a lso IOr(;ott en that? _ _ YI's .
And would you acret" with .111' , ll CCOL'oing to :;01.; , that this
is unlllwfu l ? __ 1 GO not know l aw .
... · ('11, ] thou6ht ;' fl U said at. SOi'l(, ct~Gf' of yot: I' ('via(, llc "' ,
in any cas e I Cflnnot :'f'r:J!'mb!'r p r ec is f'ly whf'n , that. Lr GO [or
:nilita ry t.rainin~ ou t.s ide the bord(>rs of' Cnuth Afl'icfi (30)
is il l eGal 0 r unlawfu l. __ 1 01' t.alking Ilbou t. tt l' J(l Ct 'that I
h(lve / • . •
379 .... l l E.
h<lVC foq;ottpn sO:llpLhing \,Imt i s un10.,;ful.
1 dc !lo t foIl",',; ;"ou . " nyway , ,'!ouIt: :JOU oGre!' ,"'iL)) In" 1. :)(11.
t.his is a very ilnportent. nS1J P ct. of this cPos",? _ _ ies .
Hl: 'lliE Got,Hn' : ~' ho.t. (;cuns('1 t:lpans is 00 you HGr"" t.ha t thin
talk about :nilitar;i t.n!.ining is 0. very i:llpo rt.ant llSpcct 01 t.his
cas e ? -- Yes .
Gqujel<l sDic t.hiz, (l cc o roinc t. o you ano. It>,wing it. out. bt>cuuz"
(;qajela is ,,'01,: 1' persor:al fri('lHi? -- !;cl .
J,nc who bet\'!een ()ccuseo 3 und GqajlOlu npoke fir::;t.? (10)
"ccused 110 , 3.
\:"11, a ccus ed 1:0 . 3 , 4 a nd 5 instructpd ::1(> Lhat. you have L the order of the seqi.l(!lce '..:rong . I o.rJ inEtrucL f'C furt.h"r t.ha t .J
before Gqnjpl(l spokp ,
in 'lliE COliHl : 'iha t is 'I!hat. he ::;,<,id .
11.:1 Sf:'.:ErIY;, ; lio . 3, Ij ' Lo1'd .
BY TilE {;ou:n' : Yeo , tiwt is >"'!lP.t lip said ,
HII CK'~'EYnA : I at:l sorr.:.- , 1 mean G-q()j('la r>pokr b<'r<H'C hr did , 3 th!;lt. is 1:0 , 3. -- Ho . ( 20)
And he inst.ruct.s me furt.h"r 1llld t.hiB is r>uppor~ ed by 4 and
5 , Lhat lio . 3 in f!;let stood up t.o CA ll !Oqcje l a t.o orde r for
tho; type of talk which he ',185 indulginG in . __ Ho .
I.nd he says t.hat he c almed hiln U:)Wll Ulltl ht' 30 iu t.o hil~
that. if l\uyoodJ doubted tl1l1 polie:;.' of LA",!,! a nd h e ',: <1S no t. su I'C
about it., t.hat. som"'booy must. eit.IH'r SN' a n;.' r:l ('r.lb('l' of the
f x ecu tive or GO t o Kine: 1.Jillin:o ' s 'l'o '..: n . Ano h'" fUrLh f' r s uy s
that the 1Jer:Jon 'dho in fact sp01(p about miliLliry ~I'[linin(!; at
that r:1cctinc; is Gqojf'1<> . __ Gqoj"l" f1ls1"1 ~ilO':'"
liY '.iIlE (;O !;R~ : '"hltt :,bout.. th" Iirst. p'_' rt '}f thp q,u"s Li all ? DO)
'..ius it S(l id t:I,') t. if 'lJ(,IbodJ' doubLtO t h t jJolicy ,,1' G/,[dl OllO ','!1}S
Pont i •••
;:>80 ",LlE.
not !Jure nbouL iL , ho> :!lust :;f' (' D '~"nb{'r ')f the (;; (>cl)ti,,(' o r
go to King "illil1::1 ' s 'l'm·m? -- I CO ~()t l·cmc:::!":.>er ~hllt .
liR Sh.'1.EYIYJi : '';eIl , l;CCI)!;(>u 110 . 3 - 1 am Gorl';; , I "Iith"l'<"~' that..
\.:as J':Cninzi :lx ula prespnt ot this :neetinc;? __ I Jl~lve ulrcacy
said 1 do not even kno\~ him .
Well , uccused i10 . 3 ceni"!; thut he E8id POCOlll p should t:;et
a copy of t)w constitution "'ith"1' frO::1 t.i:.1 or fr(l:n ):0 . Ie. or
frOi~ Gqaj('>l~ , [:0 , 1 Brn sorry, h" said thot COiJip$ o[ \..ho
constitu'tion are obtainable from the secretary of the orbaniso
tion and t.hnt in fact Gqaje1a ~IIUJ the sf'cl'etlll'J . li ' Lord, (10)
I.%1 sorr:l . I I)1J beinG C'lr1'ected by :n~ L~ar!1(c fr iend J. .. re
that in fact th(' secretul-''y ',:as \'0 . 4 . 1 /Jm son';,' . -- Gqajeln
was not the secre ta rJ .
1 am sorr y , 11e ',lUS the vicc-pres ident 1 rcr.:te~lb {' r .
BY 'lliE COUR~ ; Yes , but thf' qU('HLion is that all thu" I'WS said
about constitutions is that the-,)' ilr~ ob tuina ble fl'O[:l t.he
In ot.he r words t.ha t. you u r e wro!'lt; Ir.'hen you S(lY
that accused 1;0 . 3 s~id plCopll' could (;('t. ,] copy of the consti_
tut.ion fror.! hi~ . ',:hat. do you Sr'.y t.o that? __ lie said J rom
him, either Gqaje la or till' sf'cretllry ,
Hit SK',:EYlY,\ ; lOU npv('r <:1('n ti 011(,o. on ;'::-i'\(';:O t.Iw fuel.. that
const.itutior.s coulo be obt{,in(,bl(' from Lh,> .uccrf't.:rr:; .
131 'l'EE COUR.L' : On'l·hursQay . it,' !lo\," rel.!cs as fo110 .. '$ : He
told us that the 1l0VE'!lE'!'lt i as its 0,,'11 cOllstil..ut.io!1 and if
somebo6.y wHnts one it is obta i nublf' from him or !io . 4 or
Gqajela ,
fiR SK'..jEYlYA : 'l'hnt is rni!1.c also .
(20)
BY TIlE COuiU' : NO~I the qu('s tion i!' t.h<lt all Fri ri(l.:r he !1"'JP1'
mentiollP<l?
I·m. DK\jEYI'iA : 'l:hat. eopi!;'s of const.it.lIli ons ;!re obt<lina ble (.:i0)
from the s('cret;,ry ,
BY 't'i iE COUR~' : I .",
;.81
BY 'I liE GOURJ.' :
Jfi{ S[I.riIYA : Yes, h'" ':leS .
" 'tilE GOl..ll:l.' : 'i'hf'n how c~m you put ,your qUf'st.ion like t.hat?
lIH EK',jF:IlYA : 'l'he sllsgest ion 1 [1m pU1;tin€: to him is tha t no
name was mentioned •. (intf'rvenl's)
BY TEE cOUlr.l. :
must be careful. lou know this is t.h e t.hird tit:lC' 1 hcvf' had
to pull you up about th'" fOl';!! in whicil you 1're put t.inC 'your
questions . 'lou !:lUG\. te ca reful ho';; you put. your qUf's tions .
Hi1 SK'"EYIYA : Ii' Lol'!~ , ' .. Hh r('sp('ct , 1 pu t th..- laGt (10)
question the way Lho t I put H beC(lUSf' the witness hi':lsrIf said
it could be {';ot froUl so and so or iroD til (' secret:,r:,' . He used
the word secretary, tte \,itness . j,nd 1 suy t.hat hI" "lentioned
the word secretllry . . • (intervenes)
BY lllB GOlJRJ.' : ,'0, he i:lpntioned j;o . I; und hI' sa;,'s ilo . 4 is th"
secretary . Isn ' t thiE hair split.tine?
1'1.1 SK' . .;EIIYA : h.ccUSE'd 110 . , vIso a.(nirs that. hr introuuced
Gayisa as th (> poet. of Si\clJ. 1,.hat 00 you say to thllt? - - He
did say so .
Aoo I c orrect in sayinG that LA8Ji m"r.1bt::'s (It Heo1dto ..... n(20)
regarded th'" branch a t K.ing hi11i"r~ ' s 'l'o~m as being t hf'ir
hl'ad quart ('!:s sort of1 __ I do not know .
Did you think L}l; t tllP brar:ch 1}t KinE \:i11i(loo'6 '1'o· .. n kne,;"
r::Jore about SASIJ than the branCh 1J.t H(>a1dto~m? -- I did not ~
knm1 of the br1iZleh ill KillG Wi11i'1In's 'i'Clwn .
Di,1 you ever c omp to I<:now of til .. existence of thp br;;tlleh
at King William ' s 'l'own I!t illly stvC'" last J'f'(lr? __ I oi,1, yes'.
,\t whut staGe did you hE'at' thia? __ ':ill!' ti::1" \'/(> iJl<d gone
to King '..iilliam ' s ~own . It I,ms :Jl.l'3elf, Gr;aj<>l1J , r iol jova ,
accu!;ed 5 , 1\ and 5 . (30)
You Enid th!lt Itll\·n:ma enid a prayer 0.t. the ene of this
r.1f'eLil1(;/ •••
382 'fur:: .
meetins . - - Yes .
Do you .::'eine1!l;;'tH' L:!(, Cist. of .;hat that. pr<l~'('r cont.ained?
Ilot the exact ,,·orcG . 1 rem€'o:!ber lelll;t .
Can't you re~ler.1b~r even the Giot of ''':~I)t he s a id? __ Ee
said God will 1185iot us . he r equ f st.eG tiod to assist us to
liberate our3elves .
.. nd in the othel' mo:cting "lliich you a t.tend ee. , ',.iat. it no r:~wl
prDc licc to ('l1d ,. r.l"'c t.iI)G by jH'('Y('l' ? -- Yel> .
hnd the Gist of tho proyel' in efl ch instcnce 1 ouppos(' ,
\~"s the s;)me an th'" 0:1(' l'Jhich :"'()V ]env<> just civon tllp (10)
Court . __ Y('I; .
Anythinc else ""hi.c!) t:o . 3 :.;aid "t. this r:lcet i nc; ? - _ If
nOr.Jeoody ':/0:11,,5 t.o 101)\1(" h(' muct S",f' thf px ccutivo .
l('S , anyth inG el se?
BY 'tEE COURi : ""hOll y':lU sny J e«vl', wh",t 00 you m~t'n? -- L('llv('
t.he count t'y .
Nil Sr..~,!EYl1!, ; Yes , is that. all? __ Yes .
Didn ' t accused II:> . 3 also t. ell you t.hat. wnf':1 you come
back ft'o:) crosoinc tr.t: border , you ',~ill bcco;nc frf'c<jol:l (20)
Ann diun ' t. ilf' 1'130 s ay , o<ccoruins t.o ;iou, t.h:<t. ;tOll we r l;'
eit.her to go t.o flo7.l)l:1bique or Bot.sW<lnll ? _ _ Yes .
Is t.his on" of 'th(' foct.s which you lIS- V\" forGot.t.en? __ Y"8 .
I mllst put it 1,,0 you [,sain that Iio . :; deniE's e ve r sayinc
this nt this mp('tinc or 1;'1.1.. fl.ny o th"l' l:1E'ct.ins ___ i!o .
I will 1'l'peat. l1hat 1 put. to YOll corlip r on . 1 soid 1,,0 you
earlier on nc cllsrd i:o . :;, <lrnif's f'Vf'l' sn~; i!!;:; 1', t. t.11i[1 1'1"(-t.il')(,; :5 that. peopl e nllOuld Co !'ut. 01' t il" countr.! for T'1ilit~r~' traininG
(30)
fiGhters to fiGht \Ihit.cs in Sput.h .... rL'iC'l Hlld LhnL tiwy could
ci th rr/ . . .
that. .
Dn you know ~/hcn i-Ioz'-'.r.llliquc nt.t.lliw'rl its i:lUepCl"1l:cnc('?
I think 1 '::)711 •
::!ist.nke ; it v:llS lust y~"r in Junr . _ _ At, 1 have t.."!ic, ] think,
1 !Ira not surr. .
Do you know ',lll"th('r in fact l'!c?,'l11biqu(' had bases !\.,r
people to tr1lin in thp.1.. country \·;i1..11 [\ vic",- 1.0 rf'-t.urn to (10)
South Africa? - - 1\0 .
1 am sue;gcsting -"0 you that 1..h{> only ti1.'l(, v/ht'n tI'.pre hoa
been tvlk of liozambique beinG a bn~e for ~Ihnt ar(' rcf('!'.!.'pc to
as terrorists , is onll rec('ntIy ; even then it \'1:)8 l'lith rC'[;ard
not. know thnt .
for South ,.fricanl.: to go D.nd trnin tiu'!'!' nnu ceel" bOCk te>
South .ifrica to fiCht hl'I'f'? __ 110 .
Anj'l"iny , I a-n su[:;r;esti/lE to ::,0,,-, that I.!:erc vlcre (20)
never any such C'J::1p ia Bot::;wona . let us :1':1\'! (1enI l'li trl your
(intcrV!'l,,"S)
BY '~- llE COl-H'.!.' ; I,,'ha~ is yo].;!: r<?pIy ? __ I co not kllO""! .
/<iR Sh'1:EYI'L~ ; Let WJ :10,/ dcul with ~' our mef'tinc which vias held
in l ' . E. ;,re you ubI(' t.o T('t:lcral)E'r:' th" d"t.<> 011 ~Ihich Lids !.1('Ctinc:
was held? __ Ho .
J.re you o.bl~ to rcmerJber tllf' nonth in ~Ihich it. l'ILlS hc16.? __
Yes .
lihich month W<J.S i-t? __ ilov('f.,l.lt''r .
,\nd '",-ho were pl'o~<>nt at tr. il) m"t'tinc? -- It I'/I'S
myo!'lf, occUIlPd 3 , 'I , 5 , l'[Ji]<;c jo';1<18, Afric<l SuIr·10, 1\.·"1(;io Lippa ,
I1nd/ •••
_~ lii.-E .
,-,!'ttl wher(' ',101l th is mr>('tip.g held? -- In II s oc e"l' fi(ld in·
P . E . , nlr): r.~8dium .
Did anybony say anythinr; at thiG ;:jr .... t inc ooout ::lHiLory
traininG? -- Yc~ .
Any of the RCCUC«:? 1:0 .
,-i[' u';ul next \litli your F:lCctinc ~Ii:ich '.HlIl ~U?JlOIl"(! t o Of)
(10)
BY tEE COUIn' : '1'.11(> ~:itn('ss hus b(>rn on hin r"' .... t Clll (loy . If
he wonts to :-;it down a t any steGc and. continue hi!'. cv i <.lcncr'
[]it t i ng . I have no 00, ection . - - YCIl .
HR Sh~,'EYIY.' : ~/ho t \1 (1 :; the uste that 'Lhi:; ::J"ctiI'-G I-I U~ hol6.? --
loth October . 4, ,
li"lsondo , Ilbu1 elo Husi.
G'lo.j f'10 in r"ct. ·,m:. intoxicat.~d t:wt. d ... ~' . I:; thnt ( .20)
correct? __ Yen .
Y01.: haJ b':l"n tOGcth"r ~liL h G'1aj "l;1 in t.he carl if' r pnrl of
that dny ? __ :ics .
And at some staCe I-lith Vo . ;, as ';;r l l. -- :L .... c .
'J.'he r f) ~!ere 1l00le two Girll' aillo sittine ;-lich ,i'ou t h"rc
near the t.oilet!) of the ~.'hite staff tlf'::lUf'L'S . __ les .
\-:here precisely 'lias this 11('et inc hr:l(\? -- In t;ilf' klllor
ncar l..h(' strf''l.fI1 . bCIJille thf' r\lc"r'~' ficl(l .
;~d ~/h0 s poke a~ 'Lh iH m{'rlinc? __ !_c cu ~ ed i:o . II . 4 '..Ihat (lid he say ? __ ii rot.ly h .. to ld Ull that the DO)
president <:lnd the vic c- prcpiurnt or(' not avo.iln'blf' , 00 he is
GOiIlG/ ••.
"nd Zuki1c li:;i.
A!1U \'Iller" ','WI) t!li!> rn(>pt.il'.{) h('10.? -- In a soce,..!· i"ifld in·
P . E . , I'ark GLadium .
Did anyborl~' Gay .<)nythill[, at this 1.1('('tinc about mi1iLory
traininG? -- "[CG .
Yes . who \-I'll> it? __ VU;jO l;al(,l~i.
llPld in tlu~ ce11t<r but which was lot,·)., h,..1<1 (11., Llw k!(}r)f .
Yes . (10)
BY.1liE CO{jH'I.' : l'he witnes:> !IUS b<'en on lliil f€,..t all <ley . If
he \~<Jnts to ;1it down at 3n.:/ sttlG(' r,nd crmtinue hioS evidEnce
Gil,til'-& , I hnv€" no oi.l,jecti 'lI) , __ ~('a .
Hhllt ',1.:1 ::; th" <late thut t1li:; :~<>('tjnc \'iue h~lo.? --
I; th October . 4, )
Kent:;hcp ~ , i,nuil" 1.t:~Jd , 51;:!t ... I!kobind.(' , lloH\1abi::;i 'iako, 5 ikuns i
Hasondo , Ilbul e10 I'ius;:' ,
G'1lJ.j('l<J in foct. wac intoxicated t~nt ur\~' , l:J LhnL ( 20 )
correct? __ Yee ,
tho t do:;? __ Yes ,
And nt f.;ome otacc ~Iith i:o . 5 1).:> ,:('11. __ ·""G .
'i'hcr~ v.' c r e so::)c two ci rlr; 1;!.lso sit-t.ine wit.h .lOU t.1:r' I'~
ncnr t.he Loi1eV: of 1..)1(" ~.;hite sLuff C1.(,l':'I)J1'l"s . __ "(ea .
\:here p"cciscly wnB this l~(>eLinc; j)<'ld? __ In the kloof
lI"'ar t.hf"> St.t'f">!lffl , 1)(>f1iu(' thl' ruCh~' J'ic1<1 ,
?ncl who croke ul t.hir; "-I('('t.i.ne? __ .,ccu;;ed ,:0 . 4 . 4-What did he s~,y? __ ~'irctly h'" told uc tlwt. t.ll,· (30)
P resiu-.mt. and the vicc_ pr(':Ji(if:>nt a l'(' no(, ava.i1uLlc , GO he is
Goil1(; / •• •
(\ IJ.i. :, °
Go i nG to tukc the stand an,] h!' rur~ll('r tolu us that :;inc(' some
of t l1(> members G.id not know thr c!'(l!l(;" of VCllU"', nothinG of
i mportanc e will 1.>e sn i d . So he fUl'ther told u:; nbout the
illack mun ' s otruer;l" , that it :::t,!rtccl 101lG QCO un(t ,II:' are not
the anl;, prople \-Iho n!'", struGGlinG . 'l'h ... rr Are pcopl ... \·!ho
r.:hould ke('p 1,br spirit of 1,11" scco!vl pr..'o<:" thot 1-10 nunt
So 'de y lcllV"
the country for milita::y 1,ruininG . i:" tolu m; 1..;nt ir s0:llrboG.,Y
is con::;i(lr rinG tn ::;t:l~~r n jJl[l~ , \1" uw;t i!1tro(!ucr ~ll" pl".y 1..0
the i~";;Jberr.: !Co t.l"ln1.. thf'jO ct1n st.;.:.:;e til!' p]~'~ if n"crr;s~'·..; . (10)
otond up bnd tnlk .
thnt there is !10 ti:nc for (l pla~· t~S ·,if> :11'(" npprr)<lchinc ~he
exa:ns . :';0 tho-: thine of th~ pl"J we:; .9. lailUl·" .
'.;hot ('lo,,? __ linen toku !,tn~ i v.:;k~·(l (!u'.lut :10.,; to l,..avc
th(' country , he told :lim that hf' :nusl,. contact tiw f'xccutiv(' . 4-10 th3t all?
i/o , 4 spok(' of a 1'hl1Sp7- - 1t is :l" \/lt0 in :>oJiIl{; the ,":Illu:;e . I
spoke of th(' plw6e 3S h" "told us about. t!", militor;, (20)
traini nG . Because I hay!"' r.card that that was the 3f'Coac.. phase .
l_'1:/tllir.C; elsp said bJ u.ccuscd 1.'0 . 3 ? -- Accuopr] ilo . ;;
·,,·os not 1.1If'rc .
I ctl!l sorl'~', accused [:0 . II . __ no, I (if") not ~"Ll'Clb(>l· .
ot thL:; meet.inc or ot :.ny otho· Clcct.inc . lie suys th'lt if h'"
l!Ient.iOllf'O nl'lwd st:'uGG"lc in any r.lOctill() , i"L 1·I:;lS al'w~·:; in tJJis
t e r :n , nllT:lel~' ; if tllf' .souLh Ai"l'icnn GOYl'l'l1:1Cl!t f!ol's n:::.t sol'.'.'
inevitable . 1 do not rC::Jc:nbpr hi;~ t;o,/inc SQ . (.;;0)
If hf': hod 30i(\ ~o would you \)(> sl lrpriscd ? j;o .
Vol ...
306 '!.thE .
li(J you I:nol'l ; !hcr'(' !'lo , ;:, hud Gone to 011 Lhi;; (;' ;1:;? -- I
h<::ura th"t he il-::Iu con" i!O:a<' ,
lind do ~,ou know whether accllsed il(}r; , 3 ulid I~ hD.d fit aJlj'
steGe laRt yet').' been at KinG ;"'illiam ' s 'i'OI'/Il? !.,lith D. vif'w of
visitinG the branch of Sf,Sri nt r:inc williol~ ' !J ~o\m . -- Eo .
I '.:<'11 , acc u3€:d Ho . 4 denies sayi~ (It this L'Icctinc bJ'
i~PIYl-IlI3 that if cnybo6,i' \wntru to INlvI' tt>.c c<)t;ntr:,- for
mllltnry trDllunc . must EO Ilnd (l('C Lilc {'::ccu~ivf' . __ He sil i d
n ' LoI'd. , I do not !mm'i , unles;; my not.r3 nrc incol'rf'ct ,
co .
l<IilCn he 1300'1C ('vio"nc<" cOI1CCnillG this [:wctin[; on t!w S" ~h (10)
hihlself did sprat: 1)bout "lilitlJr;l trc.inin:::; , but ;/OU onl~·
mcntionerl hi", ncc0rdinG to <'lJ' not ... , only i:l1"!1 :' ou ~1'.;r tlwt he
replied to ;Itoyi , wh ... n 1:1..o;,.-i s Coid h'y.-! cnn ;i OU I f nve the counLry
.:md he saie peopl" cOljl<l GO t.o tlw ('xccut.iv<' nnd b~ ;'l.c.vised by
them.
B'{ 'i'I:E COU!U.' : Do you UndCl'Rtnn,: tli" qu('st.i(m? __ lio .
Whcn :;011 Gave (>viarnc" last J:hU1'3C2 ~' L!11 you ::laid 11(,:5 that
r'al:u l!toyi then as~:cd hot; can \'IC l ~aVf: t.he countl'..> nnd your
reply , nccortlinG to '",:' llot~ , WJS i!o . l~ c(lid he could GO ( 20)
to the executive und the;..' ~Iill odviGC you . 1':0\'1 CO:.illGcl says
to you you never said unythinc about 11ilitnIJ' traininG, you
only Dcntionl'd 1<><lvil1[; the count:::.:: .
In SK\lE'iIY /, : 'What is your reO-ction to t.hu t? __ Ib;:rbc 1
fo reot to sa,Y r:'Iilitary t r (;ininG .
t.o I correct in nnyinc thnt so:nc p"oplf' · ... e rr intcrl'!::rtcd in
l!'D.villG til(' countrj' only Ior educntion (llId llothinc "l:w? __ Por
p.ducation , inclucJinc; military Lrainins . ..
Th(>L'C are Gom!' \·:ilo :.'oulc Co for both , LhC't·!, <Ire :::O I~C '.-iho
Hould onl:,' GO .for nilit<:lry traini~ un(l Lh C'J.'c llr~ 1;QW' (30)
~Iho ~Iould only CO for "'oucnti .... ll . Or <101" ~ y ou know? - - I do
not/ •••
only . __ Y"::l, I dQ 1101, ;,noY: .
nl ~j:'.IE"[1:t:, ; You also silid 011 the 9th tlwt Vuyo Bnhni you
had hcard vl<".l::> t:-.o orunnillinc - orc;<..nir;;cl' of thl' G"curit;;
s('curity cO:;lMittec .
ihat' i::l t.!""!" not'" \'Ihiell I ll'''vc and th'lt. is thl: not,:, \'Ihich
~ Lcal"l1ct' 1'ril'no. lWG llere ,,150 . In "n~; ('v('nt , '.": hat. •• __ 1
jU(lt ::la id he ;'[(1.:) Lhc orcnni:;o:-r oI S/;f;i!!, he ' .. :0:;; p1'~;"1nr:; (10)
a purt i ll the Gccurit;r cO:1::littec .
BY 0:..'111": COUlli' : l:.ec ordillG to r.v n:>tf' ;"ou m'ir1 VUj'O :.b10ni waG
t he orGaniser of the ~ecuri:. .. ;,· ,~or.1:ni'~t( f.. -- I (laid security
1m S\\1.:E'In:,l : In nn; .... "vent. , 1 [In inctl'Uct<:'C, t.hat VU;'0 I3alrni
was oJ:"::;nnisillG secret.ar~· of 5A::<Jl. _ _ I r;;nid 1:(' \18(l or;:;a.niscr
I.lnd secu ri t.y con:::1i t tc ·~ n,.,ml.H; r .
"J
Did 1'0 . 3 evcr ;':>I"csi()e- at (]n~' I.lc,.,til~ \·:hj.ch yo\.: o.t.t.rllldev'3
in his c aDoc i ty ilS p,;:·~.sidcnt ? -- :':..2:..:
Did ::0 . 4 ev,'l' ,,~t. in his Ci 'I"ICii.y c::; such <JS the:
S('Cl'ctar;y (11.. ;). rlcctin:; l"Ihjch ::;0\1 a~t.('nd.('c ? 110 .
(20)
I.;-
iiO'.1 , 0]"1 the- <;1,11 9,£'1i]"1 _ 1" nm l'"j-rL'illl,; VI t.1l" n01..e:J ()f t.1l"
9th , this it. <lIter tl:~ \'lit ll"GS I,r)(,:, tictll1.. ·:Ii'Ll"::. Ow ~'rcor,(~
r.]entio!\('(l V\fyO &\l<:'l1i as thl' ol"G"nj.::;cl' of tl: ... scc\ll'i"L~' cr:'~mil,:"'"
'L'II('1'",.ftf'l.' lip :""'P0K"0 about 5inxo i1nd th('n the llrxt qurnt.ion whicil
I havr <lOI1n is referl.'inC to these pf'rsons : Did tl'cy act .'."ot
any of t he ::)c c tinGc that you attended and the !"cp1~' \:0:3 no . I
do not know i1" !"Jy ·notl' it: COrl'''ct .
CO)
tho pocition.s _ tll'"':/ did n,..L net in ,\Il./ nJ" Lh,.. T''' I"'.il,i')ll l:; in
th,, / ..•
~.
of t.he di3cip1in1lrJ cO:~!lIitt.C'c, VU~'Q 13"11('ni ',:0::: tile ore' >li3('r
aspect _ 3i1l..'0::0 1/D,S on the di:::cipliJV'ry ccr.l:1itt..('(~ . ': 0'1 l" .... nt en
to ::my they d i d not act in "n.)' of ~hf'se pO::litions in t.il"
l1eetinss thnt you att'Jnlt.oHl .
1m SI\"v!EYIY;" : liOl'! do :'-OIJ recoIl~i1c ~our l'Cply 11hen ~h[\t ( 10)
qU<'lltioll ~laG put to you on 'J,'hursua;, to ~lhtJ.t ;"(ll] t.zvc E~id
towy .lbout Ho . 3? (inaudible _ IIr G):-.. :(>yi,','o and thf' Illter_ 3 pretc r spcakins Si!11] ltc_ncou::;J.~r) in hi:; cop.lcit;.' ' lS toile
prc(;ldcnt . -- I too!~ it tll,lt he spo).:f' firstly at that r.1<:etinc .
BY i'I IE COUi1T : ;10 , but COl1nSf'l S['ys ;"0\: h~V(l no'': Given tW}
confl i ctinc :l.uz':lcrz . 1." \mnt3 1.0 lmOl'! h0\-1 JOu cnn rrconc ilr
your '1..1-)0 nnSl-lcr ::l . GOt.11lH'1 "n;,'s on 'i'hur::ldnj' :;ou :::nid uc cuscc.
flo . 3 neve r ne tre. [l~ prC' o idcnt ot t'.I'.J 1~('('ti:lG Itilich you
Ilttended and tOGfl.;t you ;';f1:J he did ... ct IlO president r..t 3. r:lCetill[;
tlhich you ottcr:ded . liol-l COUll!;"]. on,l O l!N! do you (20)
re c onc ile those tllO O,llOIl f' l'O ? __ I diu not underoto.nrl thr qUN;tio
prop er ly .
1m SKwEYlYA : Which '11:CBtion ? __ \~h!'thn' 11" did "c-~ 1\0 ~he
pr(>sid.cnt . So nOl-! I ueny the Inct that llf' (.tct.ed 0.3 tlJ('
prcG i den t .
BY 'I'HE GOUib.' : 01' llo . il he Gaill hI" ncv('r G01'! hiq (lCL in this
e(.tpccit;y . '': jWl''-'' l!:., I~O conIliet. Lhcr" .
L"t UG nOl'! cOlll \'!itll ;"OUI' ('virlf'nc" rccnrli illC
Yr'lU peopl", Lo l"nv" for TIotOt!l.\llu . HOI'! corn'cL II~(' if 1 Wl) ~Irollr~ .
l ilC' / • • •
The i:'lpr('Gsion I Got fror:l J')U in l:f'c~n'd to til" Il!,pr')uch ilJ
G/l1"J~l!l conc~l.'nin;:: tili" t.r:il' ~'m i; t.hat (j'1[l,irl~l lwu HPP!.'Q,1C1iCU
you at 0)1'1 tlt{lC;C Gnd spokr, t.o :rou about iJot~Kana c.lla then he
tlpokc to IJ.ccus cd llo . 5 on fI diffCL'ont ')ccnsinn nh0U"L tile G('I1}C
tiline; ,
BY 'olE!': COUR.r , '~110 ~Jl""k" ~o ,:0 . 5,
1m m\~:; EJTi;, : G'1l'~d(l .
BY 'i'iIE COUib' : I t,. llOt ' (31);"8 : 1 t).rn 1:(1(l (J. c<)nv{>J:~ation \:it.h
s
(Ie)
n-I 'II'" (;Ou:rl : .,1"t. (>r thr:t , 1 , 1;0 . :;; , ;:~,11l( r~joWl . :.itcnlc-:;.
Gqajrl:l. th en had n co;wcr::; ation .
IIR Sl\',-!EYE,I. : 'llwt ir.; 130 _ I nf.! Gtill ~:it.lj thr firG\' nppro/;ch .
Am I cOl'r r ct ill ::'Hl;" il'l[; tlwt \:hen Gfp.j'."l~- ]J(j,j 'tf"pl'o::d"r)ci vou
oriGinnl1:r , !w apprO'lCll'_"l Y(1) on U f:ifJ'Cl'cnt occ '.'.::;ion nllU not
'1.1.. tllf' S1'.mc 'LiIJC 1)S l'l;lCIl lH' Upp1'o,lcl:"d 'lccufl<"d /.<1 . 5? __ 1
1'13l\t t o corrf'ct 'Lhir: ~oil"jt nUOllt l.lot.IHrnn:\ .
Yes? __ He did 1\:>1.. tell U:3 th.1 t. ':.' (' \;"1'(' Goinc to lletSl/o-nB .
lie told us t.imt :;" \-)(,'r'C lrl'lvinc the countl',! .
( 20)
qU!~ .s tion? __ 'i'O 'Lhe I'Jrcon(l port of ;"01H' <l\i('r;tion, ] n[,;l:','rd th'lt
he oppro? chcu me at differcnt stnsc!] Hith accused Lo . ;; .
ilot·; , <knlinc fir:Jtl:,. '.-lith G'1"jcI.;~ 'r.; 1ppro:lch .... f JOllr~;('lr .
1..1'(' ;,-ou nbl" to rrI:lNlb0r 11hrn _ I om ::l orr:' , ;.:ou ::;r id tl.i :; ',WG
on t he 7tl' Octobcr _ (, t '" YOl' 0],1" to r(':1(,;;]1:o'l' l.'lier"c )1 .... :,0.',1 ;-,ou ?
'iCfl ,
' .. :h('re 1'11\0 it ? __ At M/ dormit')"j _
\)id hc cnml' t o jon? Y(':3 .
~'ou to GO out 0f the COUl\tl~.i? __ 1 '.-ms his intir.:l-lr' CO)
fri"n<.1 . Go 'j lC I'mnLC'd I~C tc nCCO::ltlIUl;:! hi!:l . So IIr told :1" tll'lt
nn/ •••
"ljJ E .
am a best friend of hiG awl I:c l"Ioul{; be vcr;; plf';;s('(l if I woulc.
a6re~ to I"Ihat he '.'1:;1::; C;oine; t o tell me . lJld then he told 1~"
thnt l,y t hen he wns prcp31'f'd 1,0 Inwc the coulltr.!' _ Sr;> I
under:;tooa thnt he w.!s pl'cpal'Nl Lo GO for ::JilitDl'J tro.inin.c; .
without him mentioninc this fact? -- lcs .
Beeo.use thi::; had been rJE'ntioncd ['1, :nc~tintis . __ "ies .
Of courGe 1"he ::;0.:1" hold::: \·:i'~h hi:; ::)cctinc 1"o~('th<:r ·.1ith
your:::;cl.f nnd Ilccuscd ;!o . ;; dnd G'1o.jt'la _ =f\ I->:i.jovn . I .-:l"IJ
Gorrj . -- Sorry , 1 (10 not. lln{l'.'!'otnnu the '1\1(':;t.iOll .
Did G'pjcl.:r n"ver m<"'lti0n :~ilit.:J.~· ~r'1i!li.!l!; ,1~~ ::;uc:\ (10)
((bout in other \)01'0.:::; c;oinC out ryi" th~· count.l 'J on"; .jOU :>nd 1..h.
~::;t of the pe"pl!' u'J<bccu 'Lhnt tlti~; \.:.~:; f(11" f.!i.li-:..'ll';· Ll'·.inin;:;
be(1)uof": tId::; b.o.d bc(')} decide d ,,1, .lOrl.WI' :.l' ... ~t inc::; . -_ ... 'his 1
undf'rstood ·.··hen h!' npproa.chf'd :1(' aloil" .
BY 'l'IIE COUlL' : Juct .t'c?cnt tha~ . __ 1 unllcr:;tooc th..1'~ the til:1c
he upproached !;;c ulone .
I~ L>r;'\iE"IIYJ, : I :l(,C . O. K. , fair enouGh . lit Lh"t Gtc..C0 COl'
ho· .. 1 long h .. ").d u'1njd." b~en 01.11. of ochool? j:'nr hOH loJ1C had he
bef'n c}'l)(;ll"d fror.'l ::eo.ldto~m?
3 l"Ienb3 .
I thiJll~ it ~m:l n1:.out (20)
fond fron ~'OUl' obsi'rv~'tion of hi;:) .::nd f rom your tnH:lnc;
to hir:J nr; your friend , dio you Get the in9.r,~:;sion tJVlt he ':.'[,.:l
Gettinr:; fructr(ltC'd by the fnet that he '.'ms not 01. ochool? 1
did not 1..o.\:e it like :"hat . n('enuse hr Got I..h(' i\('rl1ic-'io'1 tl)
writp his fin'll C)UtFllS , :l0 he should hev" u[;('(1 tivlt tim; in
otu<iyinc; for hinoclf .
Btlt hf' \/1'0 n('vcrt)wlccc precluded f"!.'0~.1 ~\t\..rlH1inG clDs::;ro .
Is that \;h~, \.. ,lOll f11'C COll\"('~ in~~? __ 1:,.. 1:;:C p!'(,cludf'u fl'orn
attendinG clw;c"::; . · (;;'0)
--I ...
'lc U~ E.
I (]i<i not sr.:! ",:ith his Grnl'1rV" .
• Iith who ,!os he sta;:,"inc at 'l'3hoGH? __ lir ,-II1G bcinc
r.cco:.1:nodoted .
Do j"OU knovi the people' \'lith who:,' h<' '::~G ctnj"inc? __ "i('G .
lh you lmoH whethfT tlv.:r(' \·;nG un.l rf'lotionslti.", b ... t\-,'("'n
thoil(~ pc()i)le and hil.'ls('lf , ,;qi.ljcln? -- :i:her!' ':iUC no rrlntion
1-1110 arrane;cll that Gqujrla m'lst stay lhf'rc , if yO\l (10)
jwo~/? __ It WD.S another fricnd of hi!; ~:ho 11013 Gl"" in.,:; t.h~'rc at
'l'zlIoco. ·
Of courGC you and Gq.:1,i("1.:1 :·.'C1'(' in the enlOe eJ "13~: Pl" <H:l
1 Hr:mr;, or you ',Icr(' doinG til!"' ::;011(" Gtnn6.0. roo " -- Yee .
Durin{; the fin"1 yrar at iIr':\lu1.nHn . -- Yes .
l~nd you ','if'rE' 'If.10l1{:; 'lilt,.. 110r;t Gcnior "tu(l('nt::; .in o'~hr r
wordz . __ Yes .
Includinc Cq<Jjrlo . • __ YE'G .
hi:; Iel1011 ctuJentG ccnerally? __ Host they lOVf'tl him . (20)
Leo , rul(i h" \':U3 influ!lntial [10 \1(' 11 . __ I connot ~;ly
he l"IIJG influcntio.l.
1i0l'/ did. lio . 5 , o.CCUr-CIl. ilo . .5 COrle 1.;0 I~ert 5V'nlc.,· G'1'.'j"l~'
h'hen i;herC' \"I~S thi::; toIle IIbout l('~vinc the countrJ ? __ 1 ~
culled him 1"1.'0:0 his dor~,it.ory .
Fro1.:l uorrnitory Ho . 2? __ lio .
It/ instruc tion:; urc that you collre. him fro", dor:1itory
Ho . 2 . __ Ho .
Froln ~Ihich dOl'mitor:r did ~'QU cnIl lrim? __ j 1'0f.1 dormitory
1I0 . 10. DO)
In o.ily ('v ent , 'lhEn you CI:<I'1" to hir:l, ::(1t.J tolo. hi"'! that
Stanley \!Unt('d to ~<C<C him . I~ th'J.t corrcct? __ Yc~ .
And it 1":03 thcn you, accused i:o . :;, und GqajclD tOGcther .
Yes .
f..nd am I correct in snyinc tilnt GrFljclr' sBid -this or
30Mcthinc; to this ('ffcet : I shall he c ~'o:.;:; iIlC or :::!<i:Ji'i1'.C th!;'
country mid he asked if occu3c(1 ]~o . :;, ',:cs p:ocfKlrcd of-tC'cr
h;Jd :laid that he ho.o. alrc~u:J ~pokcn to YOtl . -- Ie3 .
money . -- ilo .
(lISa asked him ho\'l nuca r.10lW;:" he IWll 011 '111 '1 . __ ]:0 .
Yes .
And the next thinG I'lhich lJnS snid by Gqr,jclQ is thnt
ho
5 (10)
tOl:lOrrOl"!, c.ccord.i.n.G to you , -tnnorrOl'/ .... v .... ni:lG ~.!(' 1'rc lrnvinc .
BY 'I'1,E COUR::;' : 'l'omot'rOl'1 mornin::; ':1" arc l('l)vin~ .
GO nnu p'lck you r thinr;s for to.,Ol'1.'()\! ' S journc;:.' . lie :3.1i<1 (20)
that .
BY ' .. 'lIE COVill' : Ilo , he ~airl ; GO and pnc\: ~'our 'thines for
tomorrol'I ' 3 journey to leave the countr-J for ::Iilitur-J traininc .
I'm SJ{\.IEYIYIt : I havc those 0.0 questiom.; , Iollo1,o;iJ!G specific
questions . Did he GUy \-Ihat jourllc!Y? 1'10":1 t.he rep1.y \'1;1:..0 : ':"0
leave the countr;:: . I,..'hat for? In other I-I01'<.1s it it; t.hl.'ouGh
qucotions folloHin;; on th(' dcscrip'tioll about the r.Jc('-tinr. .
~E COLaf : 1eo , EO on .
Hit SK',iETIYA : Thank yO.l , lI ' lord . Ln . 5 U(Ili{',s tlll't ;~{'fjLion ,'ns
mudc 01' milito.ry t rnininc \,;lien ;10U , G'lnjell.l find hius"]_f ( jO)
r.J ~t at the vCl''lmlnh . Can ~'Otl GUy hr in \:{'OllC iI' Lhn.t. , that I"H)S
r.l:\id/ •••
~.UiE .
{lnd JbjOVLl thc!] )p£t and thrn G'lujelll th('ll :opol;c '~c ~ll of you
tOGether and t hut there: WlC no ot.her second t.im~ Vlhcn ~'ou rJ€t
t o di!;; cuss t hic . -- 'i lle! l'roscc uto r he e nid I ;~u;:;t lIot tUlk
Gqajclu .
1001: . I cannot rC:M:;1bcl' l~J Lcarnf'd I ~'i(nd 5.1yi:1::"; "tlIi. at
t he b e!Ginr.inc , I \'I8 S thl'n to1<1 not to st-J:::-t this f,:::-or:l the'
bq;il\J1 in~ . (10)
IlY l'I ;F. c.:OUi"<l' : Yes , t]1'\1. is q\.Jito correct . ',';hr.n ~'ou :;t~lrt e (l
t o !;;pea1; froc the beGinninG , :;OU lie]''' told. not 1.0 Give the
cont ents of ~'ou~' c O)l"cr:Jutioll Vlit.h Gq;:-J"le . YOll •. ( Interprntel'
intct'Pre t iJl!~ ;,-t, the :J1':ne time) (in::tudibl,,) . • your rlc"tinc .
Yoo nude it qu i te c lenr to me ,,' {Iny rut .... tiuo.t 1.1l0):c ~.'D :J only
ono meet i nc at \'Ih i c h yO\! an ,1 uccusfHl lfo . 5 ;'mol i:san e Ji:J.jov Cl
end Gqn jela ',~ as p r es ent unu h:);a • c ont'e)':oa t ion ami you ';Ie r c
o.st en ubout t..he c ont.. ant::; of thl't cOll",C')':-:"t..ioI'_. }"" cnid.
Gqujel.:::t spoke , he !3(li<1 : tOllOrl'<1'.-J 11 .... '['llil'S \'!{' ill''' Ipo.vinC and
you s pecif i cfllly said D. c c li s(,d lio . ;., w ;..::; prl'.!3cn1; . Iou ( 20 )
',lent on to cuy GqoJelr\ said Co ;'lIlU pnci: your t hincs .for
t omorrow's ~ou rnc:r t o leuvn 1.iw c ountry fo r militur,y t r.:::t i n i nc .
You wcrn [l. !;;J;ed '\~hn"L iro . 5 'c r(';'lcti('oll \WS (lna you :::;11i(1 Un . 5
HaD exc ited . So "Lhe (jucction Ilhich i s bf'inG ;Jut.. to ~'Ol1 crcmc
to me t o bn fully justifi00 ami it ic tllnt \'I}:f'll ,)'ou cav e this
evidcnc c l .')st TllUrclk~' ;YOIl cnve t Lc iI1prC'I;lJion thu1. t r.f're \'iDG
onc tJ('c tinc only a t \Thie h .:::tll f our of ;y ou \larc !lr~'Gcnt . liOl!
Counsel io oUGGcstinc to you tlwt JOll ,,1''' Ci\'in.: (U.r:"l'o"nt
(>vi(lc nc e I,oda.)' und hE' ll[lntc to 'mml ',Ilq . __ It li ~\C iJecausc I
",'us tol a no t to sta r t f r o!:] t h e beCinninc , ? 1m. Sf.;'.,JEiIYi, : An;.n·,n y , ic i\, po~:oibl(· UW,t, :;ou m";, llnl~.- ,;
ni;:;tukr / ..•
(0)
;.cLE .
lJir;tu'{(~ . So.:r ~o i£ J'OU ,,11:" no'\.. llr.l:inc " nisL,"':" ill U'-Ui... I~:.ILL( r .
fhaL JUU aro tr<Jllsposinr" if I nQ~ l1S0 th,~ 'L ;I01'u , thine:; ',Ihici)
wore snid ~!hcn it W!S '1ll1y ;,/our:;01£, Gqajcla or Jbjoyu in tho
room and ::;o;:;i~ tlw.t thv.t w:::; :]ui(1 ::hcn till" fou.:.' of JOu net,
inclurlill,S [,ecwH,d i;o . :;? Or OlUt I r ilL _LL 1..0 ;:iOU tlJ~ ,t OU arC'
[urLher tran::!"ocint:; ':;il"i..'--Y<:l' H'-IS ~;; i<1 in " 1\: of '\..! ..... ,...(' k'"
:~cf:Li!lGs a.llU ~'ou ;:tr'(~ c;;o.:,inG Lh."", t. tr.inkillG "that this \'1<13 S1li(;
at the tiiQ~ tlhen you had COJ:.P to coIl nccu:.; .... o I!o . 5 . jend
p1rn::;0 U0 not Get ")c 1"iI'ont; . 1 c~::;\Jmc tlwt. this thiI'-G l::n; :J<lid
nt :';01:10 Gtc[;P. or anoth~r, out I Ur:l ::;nyillG that.. it ilJ (10)
posr;iblB tl\:,t.. ~'ou (UP LX'nnspocinr; JOU kno\! , I-!hnt \·.'uc ::;oid at
one !!IoetinG , for onochC'r . Con YC'J be !1o!-:inc su ch ~\ r:lir:tnl:e?
Ye s .
WO~; therr: n t..11:1" ~lhr'n :'ou , ['CC\; :;r-" U() . ~ , G'l<"'.j .... l .'l :":"'.d
N:ljov<J 1.'''l'C' 1'!:llkinr:: , o'(,;lk:i.n::-; tl10t ~r (nl \.' cr(C I~O,~l1'""; to Dl .. m r :;?
1, ,'011, in [""ct ~'ou <~ l'f' Iw:: inc; .~ ' r:ti:::t;-..."c . ;.})out til[' rO.1d
in ot.her ', lOr([s . __ ic~ .
I trll:!? it t h3t ~'Oll carJlot d('n~' thut -Lhcrl' ':
tOGether? -- 1-:0 .
And ':!ilS there on,:! tal}: by Gfpjl'la 1..llCl.t if ~'ou Got out of
the countr;( JOu liill not.. b"" involveo in ..... n~. [.li13,tr r;; t..r .... i.ni!1[;,
but tllDt you Iwulu b" involved in ()(iucntl.on only? If .;'0'.1
CUlUloL l'cr.1c:'lbcr , ~n.: .. JOU CUl'J10t l't::Ic!':lher . If you ncver ::;o.icJ
that un;; YOI) m::veT.' G~id t.imt . -- He !l()'1().l.' :.::Ltid th~t L~cLtu~;C
pinchinG hi::1 . /If' ca.nnct \t:ll1~ fe:;t , Ill" thrn :.;a.id if ~:ou (10)
cannot r.1O::C it nOH , l'fLo,t ;'1.1.'1' yO:.1 Goine: to ":'0 in .i'::-onL . b",cuuGe
there in front thrrc i:; no child . If ;you c1.';; nml herl' . .so
he \'iould not hOevP :;.')ic th1\t if hr t;aid WI" '>IC:::"C' onl: .. coine for
<'duc"ltion .
r€'llctr>d whrll 110 . 5 r.lrr,tinll"d t'\bmlt tiliG pinchinc of h is l'ect
rcm('!:Iocr .
point \tI1C1'(, ~ou s,'.i<l UnL G,!(.l,i"l:' cOllld n"t h<'v" GPo::rn nbout
the fac t.. 1..l1n1.. i:o . 5> or tlJ.nt rc\·~h('r J'ou were only r;ninc out for
educ<l;tion and nnthinc; pl~e . And ;"OU Gnid tl!nt yOl l SIl;; LhiG
bccnuGc Gqo.jl'ln r.lentioncd Go:tl!'thinc nb",lt the t.ncl~i":J , t:". :;0'1
put it, I prc:Jut'lp. tcnniG GhoCG , of _ Hhich I:crr:> b('inf,~ I;onl V,I
Uo . 5 . __ ilo, it ,"ms ;"ccuscd Hfl . 5> \"'ho 3ul(1 sO.'l1"thinc "'.bout
tackie~ .
y,,:; . uno Gqo.jcL .... so.iLl 1)1 .. 1.. 100" , ~'ou cOr.l!)lnin .'!bout.. Lucldr-::;
pinchinc .you, ;;ou I~no\( , but. thinG::; ;;n: .. " !~c1ch huruf'r in CO)
front 01' ~Jord:J to t..hot ef.fcc1.. . Rrr.)f'r'lU"l' th'lL? __ '(('S .
not ]WVp. spol;cn nbout ;:;ntl co in'.: 0l:t for t;(:t:c .... tion •• (intcrvo'nr:::
131' 'l'j,E COVR' .. ' : Did he :JrlJ that ? He ::;aid c~ecific"'ll;i th."\!.o
Gqajclo Goid the:,' Hf'rC [:oin.:; [or r.1i1itary trv.inin.:; .. LOll put it
to hi::J that ~WG thcrt' tnlk 1'roll1 Gq;oj,'lC'l. th"t if :"011 ]f<;"1V(, Lhf'
country you Hil l noL be, involv"u in milit'll:-;l tr"li!1in:: , .'011
thnt :tOll ill'/) rcfc:::rin:: to ..
j'B ::H:',IEIIJ:A : ~hcn]1« ~ai\i no, then 11" ~aitl 'or C~ '\I(\') .
BY ' . .:liE CO UR.J.' : (10)
qu('stion . Do j'OU i"ce 1,,11("' diff"l'cncc? '.lour '1t>(:'!;t\.o!'. ,""'e : l' tlS
the talk not about education end. h(' 3,'i6; no, the tt,ll: ~n:.; !lot
this :;;to:'y H'OOHt the t(tckics .
HR Sf:: -'EnYA ; I talw tl;f' p oint , H' LorG- . I tt' ir.st!'1.lction.s fro:n
accused i)o . 5 is 1..11=)1" in ["c1.. l'q ' I ....... !O di,l ~,p .... cifir.,..l1:, S;"\~' that
you peopl(' \Hluld not b", involve", in nilitar,:,' t~·''''ini~ . ',ihat ,io
you :J ay to th:·t ? -- Jl~ did not t,(\~' that . ~
And nol.' "\,0 C<"' b().ck n 11it . Do ;you kn01'l Georr;c i:~~eQliL ? No .
i~' ybC' I (to not !elm·! t1".("' n",-I,1(' C('orGc . ( 20)
Do ;;ou l-:;llC\'1 hi!:: rurcnto or hi::; fntlwr? vo YOll kno\'1 \'lhQ"\'
hr. doen? Is his father u teacher?
BY 'i';iE GOUR:" : He hes been o.s1:cd three questions . You ]Wc.
better nnGI;cr each in turn . Do :tOll knolY h:is fotl:f>r? __ I GUy
the nDme Georce I do no~ know . 1~"'.;rL ("' .you .. r(' tnlJrinr; uLout
Ayo.nca liccolD .
HI? SK'liEYIYA : Sorry , 1 :. c(' 1.hc accu[;f'c blVC 1111 nn<luerl tl":,o:t
i\Yonda iJGcola and GeorG!: l!ccolo. is on(' awJ "\'1.(' Gamc f.cr:Jon .
I till t'~lkin;:; :lllOU"\, yand~, !'Gcola .
lJ'{ 'J.' !:E COGR..' : '1'])(' ll ' xt qu.-.::;ti'lIl iG <'0 ",011 k!'o':1 ld~l f"~l:"r? ( )O :
lie> .
J.'J ... / •.•
a teacher 0.1-' not? -- lb .
r:Jeeti~ ~Ihicll l'lao held in l ' . E. t';hich ymlt"eferr€'(! t.o? - - lio .
\Jo.s llfl ther!' nr C~'1 ' t. ;:.:nu L'l'i"'Wnocr? -- 1,,, \'m~; not .
~p€cicl !:Icetinc? -- 1 1iG not sC'c hi~ .
And \·ihot nbout thc r~eetinG \fhich 'Ii<1S :::uppo:::cd to be held
in t.hr c e l lnr and l:hieh \';0:1 tlltir.:t"tel:y h('I(; at t.hc ):1,)'"Il ?
(10)
lie :"ou l:Il()\! \.!J!e' the' l' hr \'/'1:": ill S:,;:;/j 1"11' not? __ I (' iii no L
you t.lmt 'leCw3('<l Uo . ;; nnd II \·/Ot\l6 -:;n}:f' 'yOll t.o Eil\i; · . .Jil linm ' G "3 TOlm to lill,l men to tlm1Sport you as In!' 'l.G t],(, iJO.t-Qo;' . :;'0 you
dey that 1:0 . :;; o.n,l II liQuId tol:O u~ to til'u ','illic."I ' ::: ~'Ol-m .
Ye::: , than!~ you , ll ' Lonl . "cct::::cd iro . ;. instr\lct.s
IlO that he did not 1:!lO,: tl~,:tt occus,,{l ilon . ;; 8r.(i 1~ \':cre (20)
involveo in flIlJ I"II.JY in :;our "scaj.lnc."G "Iith liJjnvfl: Gq(ljf'la and
himself until t.h" lIf;'xt morninG ;·Ih"n hI' :::;0.".) t.hcL"I coine \·ri th y01l .
\Jlmt llo :IOU S<lY to that? __ 1\0:' did kno~l .
\Ihat r.m.k('s you Gay that , that hf> h.:J.d kno\-m prryiously ;
that. is previous to Uw ;:Jorninc \·!h('n .<:011 left ? __ 1 rCi".';~bcr
Coine to hi::! in the aorlJito):"'"J ... no. hf' cave me 50 c('nts .
who is thin now ? -- .~ccuoC'd 1:0 . 3 .
!n THE COUR..' : !Jut t.h.1t i::; not the '1u('stion . ~.Th.::.t in P1)t to
YOU in tll'lt nccuscd 110 . :;. ::;-').~i::; hf' doc:::; not. l:nO\'! _ h(' diu not
know that he \'i(l!'; involved in nn (':::; c"P~\o(' \·:ith 1;0:> . ;. ( 30)
and I~ ane i'lajovo onu Gqajela until 1..11" next. mo~'niJ1G . '1'11'11.. is
tl:('/ • ••
<;
~,tTE .
t he qu~stlon that. i:; beinG put 1.0 ~ou . -- I G:";'· h e ,li d !:no·.I .
YeG , out. Coun::;el wont.:; to k.'lo\·! I-Illy ~ou GD:: t1:,,1.. . __ J3ec ;1l.,sc
he told DC til" 50 c enb; co:;,I('~ fr()l1 J e .ffrl';' iikololnbl1 ilS r>
cont l ·ibution .
But ;.Iou SH~· HccufH.'d lio . 3 Ci'V!"" y ou t.h" 50 c<'nt.:3 and COl.;nscl
say:; No . 5 \Jill say that. h(' di(i. r.ot. T:no·:1 u:J,:, 1.hinc; 1100tl1. this
busillC3S until the next r~orninG oboUL \;03 . :; unr1 I • • -- i..>tanl"y
v'1.ajcla. tolot us, all of u s aUQut. tl!ir; . • 4 ~:h( prev LOlli; nicl.1· .
And ,·:h <'r(' ~leH.> JOu 1 .. hrn l1'"' 1..010 ;:, ou thin? -- \~f'D. l' ( 10)
the rlorhli tol')- .
I,nd 11110 ·,·H"1'C tlwrc- Whf'll 3t.:m]c? v<p j <' l o. said tJ .is ? -- It.
l'CCUGcd 1:0 . 5 d('nic-G L!wt tJ, ",- t. i::: co . ', .'ha.t i s you r
r eaction to thflt ? __ I do neL der.;! .
r·i.q Sl\.\ iEYIYA : You s ay th,.,t ~Ih('n VCCVC0U II- had l"ft - i:L Kine
Will iam ' s TOIm nOI·;, hac left t.o Co .... ml (;[:1 1 sor.!(' 1.lI')~b"rs of
SASIi at i\i~ ·.li11inl1 ' s 'l 'own , you , OCCUG(, tl 1' 0 . :;. a nd accu~; cu
Iio . :;" a ccordinG to ::tJ note, \/(1it ea at m~-Iek>~e 's Dottle (20)
Store . __ ,"no I-njovn .
Accu3 ed ilo . ~ dcnic3 that YOIl vlHit E'u :;1t W<:II Ok'·iC 'S Cottl t'
S1..o!"o . lk ::;uYG th'-'.t :'OU l "ff'r{' :;: rezt~uriln t. th('rr G()::rr'"di\{'r" .
BY THE COURT : 1!(';;Ir \~ll cr('?
1'111 SII'JEYli/, : IfN).r (\ r("!lt.mu'unL, 0 c,:11"(' . __ Stil l n rnr UlC":
lik'fckl-lc BoHle S1..ore .
',icrc you ll to.mlill{; ncnrC'r D. !·C!lLa.ll~'on1..7 __ lrG .
You SHY thnt no . II rtrriv",l and told ~' ou th:>t. h'Q '-';.-:"cutivc
r.lCmbe r3 I'lill c om,.. l"Lol.' olld th;1\. i n f ,lCt t il" !,f'r,",on::l I1PT' .... l' !""ntly
.... ho cluimcd to be ex.e·:ut. ivE' l1('mb('rG, l\.iri eOFlt' . __ :irs . (;"0)
! I OO '> ~ . Z.
l!k\tC'lme Bottle Store .
:,ou people? -- First :ntroduction .
Did you knol1 then? __ 110 .
Ycs , .... 'hat 110re the intro<luc'tiOlW? -- 'J'hcy wcre told: our
names .
And did the 'lila Gentlemen <.110 0 Liv e ~nll thci!' m!~K:; 7 __ 'iI'G .
1I"ro you able to rcmel~"brr their )llH:l<JS or t hr na ue of ony
on<" of tll"m ? -- Ho .
I,ould you he oo1.c to r"co(;ni:; (' !ul,:;OrlC oJ ~hf'f! iI ~-O ll (10)
saIl thcm? -- I thinl: (;0 .
1,eeusen Has . >, , ond , de~' that any two such p<"rsons
came . -- I still sn..;. thf'Y did COIl t' . ,\.w,S
Ime 3 ond 4 s~ that th!O'~' had Com' to SCI" 0 nan to :,,; ct
his advice and thc .... t this Mon $[\i11 Uwt 'you ppopl<' In\\st GO hnck
nnd (';0 back to Jlco.lctol1n . ilid onybod3 cive 0 repor~ about the
fac t t hat you should in foct imr;lCdiately Co "OQc»: to 1 ! <' ~ldtO\m
a t allY stuc;e in oth{;'l' Hords ~Ihcn you \ol e re at Kine \·iilliuCl ' s
TOI-tn tho next dny? __ Yes .
"!h;y didn ' t you tnkc the advice , you p€oplc?
Stnnlc.l Gqa.jelD. said ~;e ealUlot turn boel: .
1 ......
(20)
Yen, G'pjelo. ",.: ;::$ Lhe biG boy in the ~Jholc 0ffo ir . Isn ' t
that so? He ... .'(\$ uI'Gi!l.G thC" peoplc to do ecrLflin Lhines to GO
~Jitll hill and so on . Iu tha t corr':,et? - - Ye::; .
You 1-;ere blindly follo·.1inc him HiLhouL ('ven 1"h in' : inc . __
I can say ::;0 .
And that accused 3 am] 4 will sn~" 1"h.:.lt they ~lc1'~ dis-1
.. 4 courac;od by other pcrJon::; as ~Icll u.t "in::; I-iillio;,'s '10\-!11 to
(';0 out oI the country . In oLll("r \Jortl.::; , thc~" \·/c1'c o.sl:od to
d i ::;coUl'aGC you people , i]o . 3 Lind 4 w'"rc [cr.;kcd to (50)
discouroGc you , Gqujelu, accu:::cd r:o . 5 antl l ..... j ov n . t,;'cn you
rc:ncmbt: !"/ •••
401 ",ul E .
r'.:l:l8:,10cr th!)i'l c;ivinc ~uch :\ ('cpor't? If JOu C31'JIO:, l'~:J("'hcr ,
:::.ny no . -- ':i:hcy did not ci'lr :Juch " I'''P'''::-c .
wb"t. io thr n'l!~'" of thi.:::, 1:<<3.1 '~p~' in j)urb(cn, vlhn lm:> sniu
IhjoWl , r;rpjr la Clno 'Icct::>rd iJn . >, ~''' 11 ml::::t. CO h'lc:' io :::,chool ?
__ 1 do not l:n(M hiG na;'lf .
lJid .'lou Be .. hir'l nt all ? -- :.0 .
l.'llnre did you i'n~' ~ :,!ith o.c c\lscd LOG . :; and flo? __ '"he'll ,'(,
l1('r" hikinG ("'In our \'i<lJ :;., Ebi.:l'\Y , (10)
Bl o(,I<IIontcin , he i mlic o. t fd ':lith ~10r,lD to tlli:.> cffrct : h" d~r,::;
not lil:<: Lllr 1001: oi thin.:;::; ;:n,l t:!.~t hI' i::; no lc!l.[,cr prrpD.rru
to GO Oil . You do not di:;puLc tlwt , I V:!~( it . __ 1 uo not
nu\, coulti hp. 1mv" :.>oid it? __ 'i:hinr.s l i1:" w'hnt '~h,d. hc
did not Ii!;"' ?
.';aid Oli:::; ? (;(lun:::;pl r;,,;,"::; to y011 t,];:::1. accordinG to occu:J('d :10 .
J , he Dnid 01.. liJ.ocrlfontC'in tll!lt. i;r Ciill not Ii::\, the 1001, (20)
of thine"; Olin thl1,t l~(' no 10nGrr i::; pr"pul'<>d to C" on . 110'.1 you
\1('11. c ould he h",vc 3(1i(1 it? __ I do not thin': 30 .
11lOC(!'Iiont<"in ohou~ Lurll i l1(; i>(,eJ:? __ "'i.(O~ .
tUrninG b!lc'~? __ 1 kmlH il .
It i:::; 1[),)":::;('l£ .
I tHkc it th'lt, you ul:::;o
I do not unders \.nnc. ~'ou v-y th(1 look of th1.n~G . ( .:-,0)
Look , ~'ou or(' olrco<ly encounterinc probl<:'mG . ~'il:f'tJ~"
:;OU/ •.•
;lOU cont' t.o Einc \·lilliQ:;j ' o i'ovm , oo."'Ic ?~opl" adyls!' ~"ou ther~
to GO bnck nnd the;; :;l) cc ific o.ll~· ::In;; you I.1U3t Co bad: t.o Gchoo l ;
you CO:ntl0t find any t.ranspo rt. , you cannot. find on::"bod~" t o help
you , you ll!Jv(' no r.loncj , :;'ou cone t.o ,<:ul'cn:::;t.olm (llld ~'ou c:1n
onl; .. cet R30 frQ::] '.I.'n;,bo . iou diu not kno~1 \:hcthcr J'ou ·. :ould
be £1010 to ou ccc od in Gett.lnG to your d(""ot.ination . -:Jid thos e
1'act"rs hBvn 3TQ influcnc!' on .jour df'ciilins Lh?t 1",.,'- hf'r<' , T
\; ilnt to t urn buck nOH ? __ Y('s , I can 30.;1 so .
And thoae Joct.or~ also o.ffcetcc ;;lccus l'd ;!o . ~. . You
comiot d"ny thnt , I t.:ll:c it . -- Ho . ( 10)
',.1:-,:/ do ~'ou c :x:! co?
B::: ""'HE COURi' : lIc is oc!'('cing \': i t )) :'"OU ·.Inr:n he 30::1;; no .
You Il C~{ hin if hI' COil dc!\," it . hI' says no , he c unnot .
I'll SI:liEYIY;I; Oil, Inn :Jerr:; . J.rl(; :.ou o.lGO sn:.: th",t t~l" r"o.son
~Ihich ITIo.cn you to a (>c:_c" to tu.en b«c\; , ~- ou yourcc1f , is th:J.t yotl
thouCht 8.iJout ,/our pal'cn t:; . f~n<'. \-:hCll :"ou nc!:cc. uc c us cc ,:0 . :,
u!w,t he thou'::;!lt , he .::::~i(l tilot 11" (\1:00 thouGht about his parcntG .
;101-: 1 Iwnt to kno\'/ fr-:lr1 you ~'iH't.hc.!: t hiiJ '.'D3 i ll 4-o ct 1J[l,id b~l
accu:oed 1;0 . 5 and :Iou or Hl\f"\..her in 1'oct /01.1 'Ire pre~tminc ,
1'rom the fnct .)'01.1 ~'OI, r.::;cl!· th()lJCht about your pnrcnt::; . ( 20)
Ill) did '::;("1 .
'.:c11 , "ccused ,10 , 5 opnies tlw\.. ;\" ever ,~entio:lf'd his
parentG a s tl r eason for t urning back or for l·w.ntinr; to turn
back . __ lie did taU: about it . '.f.; ev ('n Lo.lked ouou\.. hiG
Gr undl1othcr .
\iho.L (1\d hf' suy nbouL his Grrmdmothcr? -- i:c said ]Jis
Gr(\nn,~o~hcr 'elQUld bl) very much '.'IOrricd bec8.uG" hin GrancTJo i.h"r
lilo:,,(1 hill v <:'>r"J much .
And I SUppOGC hp ';!oul(l not JUlVC Ji~{'d to l{'[]v" ·.!i'...hout
hie Gl.':111n,y ' c pcrrli ccio:l . DQ you ~::1 0 , .. 1 \-;hrLhCl' or !lot he (30)
Got his p,"lrcnts ' perClission? __ I do not. thinJ, he '.'IOuI"; GO {lD
fnr/ •• .
f ar as telli~ his pa r ents about t.hi::; .
Bnd :/OU t old your par<.'_nt s that. JOu \'/pr0 ICDv_lll{';? __ ;10 • .
And before j'OU left had you thQt;cht obout ~'O J.;':: p;~rcIlts ;;t
all ? -- llo .
I.nd j'OU s o;:/ t hat on your '.:;1-:; b()ck fro:1 l:i~lbcrlc.:, I.-hen
you COMe to Kine Vi IL.o ';! ' :; ~'own , you t.her" ;;Jct accuscG Ira . 3?
Yes ,
And. (l ccuscd Ha. :) told you obout.. the fact \'h<..1. I t(' '.-/0::;
fran EHst London ; tl:ot he' had l:1('t 11 fJ;)n called liJ."undisi onol
that U.is "lnll hod pro:liscd that Dr CQul,i [lrrf'n~<:' t.!12.t (1 0)
j"OU C<lJ) be t,nlCf'1l Ot!"!., of t.he countr:! for milit.ary tl·n.ininG .
n nd that education also \"10,,16 be incluoie(' . __ YeG .
At this point .'101l 81101"1('0 Jou r ':,illincn"G::; to CO) if this
f:1 3n cou10 a.r;::anc" this . Is th ,.,,: .. COl'l'''ct? -- Yes .
tlwt. look lKr!' , YOl' ure cone."rnr,: about. :,our po rent::: . ', ou
hod h;::rdly l'c;"Jchcc your ho;:] £! nt th.'lt GLace' . Is that so ? Ye5 .
I.'ho t. had ha.p;:>cncd to the raet tho.t J"OU \[er e '.Iorri ce ubout
;"ou:).' .lXll'Cnt.G ? __ It 'Iulcd up b l ;;""cr .
YO.3 .
'.iho told :i:amy 1..11._0. 1.. ./ou tn(l ,'c cu81'd ;;" . 5 lwei ,'rcid'd to
t urn buck? __ Gqujel:J .
You \~ore not the:-f' \'IILen G<Joj(>lrt tolcl '1'0.;:1:; t.hic.? -- l(>s .
Could J'Oll disput.e it if 1 :'''Y thot. , ,~nd tlms .... (H'C r:JJ
inst r uct ions , t llnt thr t'cnl l' ""o s on ~!hj' CCCDS"a Jio . 5 tl:L'Df'(l
bu c i: , ~ms llCc"use h ... (;ot. Hint'l on the \"I[~ th.:l.t you peorl r ~; c r"
GoinC fo r criliter:; -~raiuinG Gno not (or c,jucatiou? __ I 00 not
think so .
-------'.Jell cou l d thet have been thr reo::;(l:J. or don ' t ~'ou ( 30)
l~n O~I? -_ t riO not l:no0
j,ccu::;c'.l/ . , .
--;;;1-:: •
Accusco l~o . 3 01::;0 d<:>nies th~ L \'rilf"ll L" Clot ;'·OU 01. Kine
\; illiat:l ' s 'i'OHU t.oc;(>th('r ~liLh accuc-cQ. 1':0 . 5 , h(' told ,you t.hot 3 you ~lhoul<1 k-':'I'p it. a Gocn:-t about t.h" f act. thnt he \'las Givine
(l rf'port <:bout h<lvinc 301'11 sotlcbod;,.· ot Eost london . ..,hat. i::;
;"'O\1!' reaction to that? __ 1 bcr: ~lOU~' p:.:rrinn?
.70U . ',Ihat do .70U sC\.7 to that? -- l:c :;oid co .
',1('11; HCClised no , 4 olso denics tni'lL ~o\o SpOkf to hir.l
and tola hi~ tl:l.lt you had cpokcn 1;0 1;0 . ;; ~ccu::;cd '1n(:
thot 1:0. 3 I"lCCUBCO h'Jd 3aio t.o yoI.' pcoplr thut .Iou :!lUSt. keep
it i) Sf'eL·"t. that he Cav(' you (lome infoL"oJ;,tion abo1Jt <l :Jan ill
E3:H, london . ilc ocr.ios thot you sPO;~() t.o hi::1 :l!:>out tho.t..
I did not !.lpf'1ll~ to hi.:! al;out t.ho c oerce; .. 01' JI1·vnci.isi in En::;t
london . 1 tol!! hbl noovt our ;iou rncy .
;,nc :,ou told hin to }~('('P timt a ::,('c j'('t 7 i'f' tola :.lC not;
to 1.."11 Br:.l'bo()~' about it .
Hell, .::Ieeur; f'd 1;0 . I~ deni r .::; ~htlt he told you not to tell
tln;(ood,/ tllJolit the fcet that. :;OU >,('oplc hac GonE' h[lli".I~l;;· on
:;our ;ILlJ' out of the country . __ lIe did so . (20)
C0!.1prmy '11' GqLljel;:o _ :10 , llO , you and 5 b"cnU3e Cq"l;jf'ln !'..nd
rm:w.int'c! in l:imoC'rlc.7 - ;iOU and 5 thOL a ;H"rnOn nr'IH'C Ilfundi::;i
had I;nilt that hI:' could help soml' of ;;'ou p"opl"t to G"" out. of
the couJC:tx-y 1"or l:Iilitilry t.raininc . ~lhllt 00 you sa:' to \'hnt.?
He said [0.::" rnilit.e.l."~' tr'oininG uno ('euent-ion .
Ganeemi,nG the I~eetinc; \':hich you ref"r:rcd to 03 a npcciol
meetinG und OOilo('rnin:; t.he fact tha\, you en;,.' tlwt. Ho . II
ncco:npunieu you to look for (J venue- ',!i1('n JOu OCCiU,N\ on t.he
klao! [In " prop!'.::" v('nu{' , lio . I~ in:>truets 1:1" thot therC' (jO)
is no such tilil'r; . :'ihot. do you soy t.o thut? __ II~ did \'(>11 ill"
to/ •. ,
40~ y,Ll Eo
to ilccol.1Jlilny hi:.1 to Icc;':; for tllr V"IlUf> .
lio . 4 enye tlmt U'VC.l' 1:"p)Jcllcu . __ ;mu 'Lhc ol.her thinG T'
for(;ot , Ke 1:) ( t Bikunsi IbnonllO on t,he ~;n ;y und he told hi:~ to
acc ompany us and h" i:id so .
I Dr.! in8truct('(~ fro::l LIl" vccue('d :10'.-1 thut hr' 1:no"e nothinG
ntout t1:1;.t UG ',; c11, iJ.bout InGonuo u r; \·:('11. -- Ee did SD:J GO .
Goncrrninc; tilie q)('ciol 'l]('rtin,::; D.Gn::'n '.we "n,/bo":,,' c1(ctr:r.
to do t!l" 'typinC of tlK let t er? -- Yeo .
(IO)
And Hho ~ws t hot sO::J eo ocy? -- It:-plrln , ;"u'ilonikelC' IIr.;tnm:1n .
Lug-ol'lan!) or Jt;:o~itlna ? - - j·COI·mna .
'.iU3 he pre-sent ut the ::u)('tir.G? __ Yr:s .
when you :~u<1c t.hi:; off('r of :"our hand GlnvrG , tL(' UG(' of
YOU.l' hand Gloves , \-!h"re <Ud you :~o.k" tt . .'lt offer? __ ; , 1. t,hut,
mect i nr.; .
:ro . 5 :'Wy5 t.1w t ;le connot re:aembcr I~e('tine ;rou whcn you
told hi;;'! about U ::Je.ss cGc fro;!! '.L1l::lj' J.~' tlti C~ to I-1h:.1'1.. you should
nay if the police do .. ·isH you . ' .. hrre did ~'ou neet? -- 1 Clct hin
ill th" 'I cld 1,('01.' -th .... c irls ' h')ntcl . (20)
;.nd hOI;' lonG ~rtpr ~ioU had r cturn('Ll .1id you 11('('"\' him?
And c~n J'OIl r".",lfmocr '\ill(' r10ntb \"Jhcn JOu :Jet hl ~ '? -- 1- ~hin>:
it ~mG "<1rly in r:ovcr:fuf'r , I am not. :Jure .
l.ius t1\f'r" Rllybod.;y thcr<' ',lith ~'f)u ? __ 1 '.;~e eitt.inr; toc;ct]l c r
I"l i th '1':)1:),1' lI,:i:lti .
'.!hcrc? -- In thD.t field .
HOll did it come IIbout thot ~ccu :J ed ./10 . 5 c ~,:::r to be ·,lit.h
you ? Did yOel cnll ],in or did :Iou 130 to him? __ He C1I::10 t.o ut,
whil e He \"I ere 5i t ting there .
Acc used Hos . 5 , 4- tlnd 5 al:'>o deny thut th.::y lold (30)
:Iou or nn;"body els e tha t. 11 meet.ing ',-:11ich ;;ou sa;; \'/(.15 in : '0 1'1,.
Eli2.abeth/ •••
... u.cE.
Eliz;;lbet..h, i t.. s existence !)lust be kept a secret. . __ Aec\l:;ed
lIo . 3 said so .
You say that your clooc friena \o,'us St.anl!.'y Gqajela.
Yr-ll , occuscd Nos . 3 , 4 and 5 suy that they were not..
particularl.! close to you . What is your l·N.l.ct-ion to t hat. ?
ot.her Nords, the,)' \H're not particul"'l'ly friendly \'0 you . '~'hey
said t.hat they 'Jere kno, .. ,inc you us a student and prnbnbly
comine froCl the sa:lle place nnd so on ano so on . __ I deny "Lhat .
In ar.y event , you \'Icre ,'1 senio!:' to all the ["ccm;cu in
fact. Is th"t correct ? fit schooL You "nd Gq'Jjclu . (10)
Yes .
j.nd at. Henldtovill lust year I'WS t.herc any other ClilSS of
s eniors to r:latric? -- lIo .
So you to/ere senior students in other '.wrds? __ Yes .
J..nd ',Iould you uGree wit.h l:Je t..hat senior student.s had a
lot oJ influ ence on junior students at sChool? __ iio .
ri'Lord , llt this stuge I:l:l'y I request not t.o cOr.lpl ete my
cross- exll!:lination . I havc to al l intent" lind purposes cO;:lpl pt.ca.
but it. is aGlol- in on \~hot transpired ·.dtl! tin: ~Iitnt:ss ll!:;nki {lna
what the :...t{lt -.:: decic,-.::s on ~he witnr-s:.; Ikllpni . (20)
BY 'lHE COUH'l ' : '.!hnt is your fil'SL point. in refj:ord t.o I!gaki ?
1m 5!{\oIEYlYA ; It just aepcnus \~htJt hoppclIs . ~lh Dt. 1 want to put
any points aft.er Hgaki has cOlllpleLcd his cvidel!c e , in ot.her
words .. (int.ervenes)
BY ~.'liE COUlu' : Ye .. , 1 1·01l01~.
f'ul; [;;l\l,,'EYIYA ; r. nd also I'!hethcr the St.ate _ thc occond point
concerns Boleni .
BY 'L' J,E GOUltl ; I for r ecord pllrposes :~!lke u nl)tc tll(Jt. ;;lour
furt.her cross_ pxaminatinn Dri:.;illG out of til('> l'uct t.hot.. ct'oss-
eXHminot.ion of ilitlcni is not. cOlOplf'ted, If.; r ese r\{('Q. (30)
1U'_ E7.ld'[li! Nl'I QIJ! •..
407 ,{LiJ'E .
RE_EZ;"rrr:IN1'10i; B'l lL't liUUElI. ; Do you relnc!:Jbe r Wllf'1l brill!;
cross - examined (lbout. YOUl' {'c[us;:)l La tenLif,)'? YNl .
'lou were Dsked, !lmong oLlieI' t.ilinl,';s, I'lhy you did not tell
the captain dOI;n belol' befol'c ~'ou were called up , t.l~at you did
not l'II;mt t.o give ev i dellc!' . uo you rCl:l'''mb(l l' that? __ Yes .
'i'hcll a question I'as put to you : Did you ~Iellt. to come out
ond pCri'ol'l:I here in court . Do you remember thut qUE's t.ion?
Yes .
Your amHler wus ~'(>s . _ _ Yes .
whDt do you [!Ienn by the \.;ord 'p c rforr:J' ? I.'hut do you (10)
unde r stand from that word ? ''']hut. do you m",m to tell the Gourt
~Ih(ln you say you wDnted to perform in court.? I mcont. that I
WUIltpd to state here if I wWlt.ed to t';ive evid.enc" .
Did you mean anythinc; else? No .
L?U gave evidC'nee today abou t the l!l ee~inG in 1'01'1,.
Elizab~t;h ~,'hich t.ook placl' in t.1l" lra'k Ct,adu1:l . __ Yes .
You said that you were sit.t.ing t here , 1 understand, on
the seats !:lode for npectatorc . Is the:t correct? - - Yez .
flnd you said olljbody ~Iol'<inr; pnst. i.hu t place coul(l nee
~Ihat 1:8S Goine on . __ Yes , one c ould s ee us sittinG there . ( 20)
1'0 what. extent would one gossinc th(>l'c coule hc hoor' l'-'h8t
was being s ... id t.here? __ '.Ie I,ero tolkillG 60ft.ly . One> could not
just hear .
how far from the place whoI''' you weI''! holdi ne; t.hic t:leetinG .
at' what is th", neares t distance IJ pcrGon puss i ng by ~Iould come
to you ? Could you pe:-haps point out in court I,hat is "he
nearest i' casual passer_by Hould PIli;;S you? -- From where 1 sit
up to thut bot t le on ";hat desk .
BY 'i'IiE GOUlh' : 10 to 12 paces .
NR l'llJLLEH : lJicJ OJ1yon'" , an,Y stt'tln6P person in fact
pass thf'rc while you were liuvinE; this t'loe tinG or not?
1{/1O~1/ •••
(50)
I co 110
408
kno~.' .
I want '~o ref(>:!.' :.ou now , it was PI.l"t to you that. Decuned .
ilo . 5 only p;ot ~Iind of your purpose of lel)ving t h(' country for
Ildlit. ryrJ' traininG on t he way . Do ;fou rcm(llllb~r that? - - Will
you pl"'D.se repeat "the question?
It was put to you t hut only <:uri nc the jOUl'!lCj' <lid nccuocd
iio . 5 Ge t wind or · .... ll1lt - of yout' int. c ntiOJ1 . the CrO\lP ' O
inter.i,ion t o uoderGo ;rili t ary truinlnc . - - Yes .
J '.1 llnt to know fro::! you at what _ ~Ihat. is thp [h's t, the
earlies t staGe that it became explicitly npP1H'ent t hat (10)
the pu rp ose ,·ws for militur:' traininG? - - It beC8r.)€ c J ear at
the til!'le I-Ih"n GqaJela approached me .
Approached you? Yes .
!10w tilth r egard to accused No . 5 . what h'ould you s ay -
when ,,"ould you s ay was the ea rliest staGe I-Ihen it WEtS
unambiguously made clear? - - '1'0 him I think it became clear
.. 'hen we were on our woy to lHa incy . It could. beco;ne clcfJr t o
him ot thf' time GqajellJ "'85 tellinG me becouse he told him t ha t
\-Ie o r e leavinG the cOLlltry o nd IJt ~he ;nf'etings we were told t o
l"ovl' th(' count.ry for military tr<lininc . ( 20)
''''hot din Gql) jf'la say won trw pUrpODe fOl' th i s journey
when he spo1<e in t.he pr esence of Ilccuseo 1:0 . ~ ? __ He only told
h i m that we are goinc away, leaving the country .
Dr l 'liE COURt' : You r.l(' I!t;~oned on I) numb er of occanirmn t his
question of military tra ining . W'11S the LYre of h1ilit.llr~'
training ever specified? -- It was not expla ined .
Mtcr Gq"jela told you tho1- you ~!er<> coine to r:;et. militory
tra i l\inG , ond you ~ier~ on your ~0urney , di d you ever os].: whet
WOS Goil\C to huppen specifically to :,.-ou , ~.'h<Jt <;ori" of Ll'ainin(!
you were 50inC t.o Ul\derco Dnd who was Goin5 to cive it. ( 30 )
to you ? -- 1-:0 .
\~(,l'cn ' 1,./ •••
40')
!.eren ' 1. you in1.ere131.c<.l?
kno',,' about Um1. ill front .
" t.,1 E ,
Di<in ' 1. ,You wonder whether fOI' exa'~j.Jl(> you ,,;ould be Given
e machine_Gun or ",'hether you would 01' t auc;ht ho',., to lay il
Ivno- o.ine or \!hcth'n you I<ould be taught how to fl,Y un
aeropll!n" or wh!!.t Wil5 c;oir.r; to hilpp<>n? -_ I thollCl1t of
::lachine_Gun nnd handline: of e CUll .
Y"5, ' but did you ey"r bothnr to osk Gqlljeln ,,,hether in
filct you ,;ould be given a Gun? __ ilo .
:.ccused r,o , 5 , did he ever 8.llk fo:, oeteils vs to (10)
just ,rhat was GOinG to happen? -- I do no t !.'e:.ember hi!ll (Iskins ,
1:0 dr!U'ilER .. UI:bl'lOi.! .. .
liil i-:l.lLLE«: II ' lord , may J call as th ... next .ritnes5 Ge0r(,;e
AYllnda llr;colf' .
GEO;",:; "YMliJ/, t;GCOL,; , Sliorn sta1.es : O,hrou[;h Int"Ll'l'e1."r)
EXMJl,NI-IO;l '-'I lIE! ;;r" l,Ef! : '.her<:, arc you L'csidinc at l.t.e ~o:llcnL?
liel'c in GL',:"ilornstown .
lio , nOl'~alJ'y . __ In ,\licc .
Are you <ltHndinr; scnool thi::: ,;'(''''1' 01' not? __ 'ies , (20)
'';hcre: -- lJhloelUc !liCh ochoo1.
t;here i:; that? __ In Ed{l.lILSane .
In ',Ihich sL(lIICllrd nrc you ut the [;lo,llcnt? - - 10'('01 ~ .
Il:l K1";'; , 1-1 ' 1ord , could the "itncs", :;peak IIp 0 bit?
13Y 1'J!E COUitl' , Ask him , Hr lnterpr .. ter, to .<;pe:Jk loudly .
For::l 5, what s t andard is that ? __ 5tana:n..1 10.
What is yOUl' ace? __ 1 am 17 .
1m r"II.!LLEil : '.'11'>'1. :;chool o]i,\ you ottcna lost .I-car? __ \iealdtown .
III what stundaril were you then? __ -,,'om II , s~;J,ndo.rd 9 ,
"'hat orG,..nis(!tiom; >,,'re there for students at
lie31dtown ]ns t yern:? __ filer(' W(lS un SCI. vnd S:,~II .
"'''1'e/ •..
(30)
,.~('OLi, •
of ::>I,sn .
'" hell did you beco;)c "' metlbf'r? - - IIt. -thc end 01" !!;'.trc h .
liow l(lnG did you remain .' m('mbf'r1 - - I stoppf'll in AUGust ,
end of ,\UCllSt" .
lis mf'mber d i d you et;Lend meel,.inss of this ol'51misetion ?
__ 1 did ottpnd so~e .
\;·ha t. ·do you I~eon ""h'!D you soy ' 1 did att.end s(l:l!e '?
I cid not. at.t.end ot.hE'rs . During wp-e-J.: _ er.do I used to (-Co hOr.le .
I,.,ha t dOE'S SAS I-I - v lwt do the letters SASH mean? (10)
Gnu t li . fricen Stuc.cnts ' l'Iovc;:\cnt .
when di6 you hellr of SALH for t!ie first. ti;:;c1 __ At.
Lov ednle .
who't "'00 iH'ppenint; at. Vw(d<Jle? _ _ '111(' r.:; \'iOO oport.o therf' .
Yes? __ i.t, tl'ic end of this sports ::If>f'tinG &0to::J.da j,duk_ /
wana nnd l'atl'ick 'lwindi cnlne to ;O€ \'ihile 1 ~ms sittinc on
n benc h .
who is Sot ollclu ? - _ Accused iio . 1.
Yes , /joe \'lh(!I .. did t.hey do witl'-, you or ~Iha-t did th'~;y s ay
to you ? _ _ 1.>otomela I;dukmma said i'at.=:ick · .... windi woule (20)
like to open a branch . lir- said i;:Jtl'ick .~\-:indi ~I"uld like him
( Sot..o:llf'lo) to open a b r anch i n l:e"lu\..own nnd h" ask<-d L~" if I
'.'I ould not like \..0 ~oin and be a member .
t,.;os it o'>xplained what.. SAl:i j·! was 1;'11 <1oout.? __ 'ies .
\;'ho explained ? -- .ra t rick ,,<-"I i nu i.
""hat did he slJy ? __ He s a i d th is iG an ol,::;nnioa ti on f or
hi(;h school s t udent s a:Jd sec ondary schools .
And what 118S i t to co ? What wc> r e its aims? - - I t "!DS to
help the- Blac k people 0':" build i ng sc hools fo r th~m <,nd also
pOo r peop le . (30)
I,nd Whfl\.. \·IOS your a t titudl' fit tr.u t stace t. mrnl'Gs an
orcanisation/ ••.
411
olomi!::ution like SA::':H? jio\·! d i d YOt' fe"1 ·~l.)()ul. ::;uch on
or{;oni.'".iHtion? __ 'ro m" i.t opp f'or~d 1,0 b" 0 cood t.hine .
Whot. is l.he next thinG you know about. proe r f:Zf, r:w.d t> with
forninG this branch of BASI';? -- In He~:tldto·..m ?
Yes . -- A b r a nc h 100PS for;:wd .
On whilt day WbZ thin .sport r.lcct.inr;? \"hot d6'y of thc ~Ieek?
I -- It was on a Cn.turday .
\ih en was the first instanc e ~Ihf'n you firs t - tht>1" ,you
kno\-! of thllt this t-uhject ~Ias flgain token Jurthpr at liealdtOl·m?
On Nond(:ly . (10)
I~·hat happened th"ll on lion()u.:r? -- Aft"r studies Sot omcl0
asked me to wait for him .
Yes, and I,hnt did. you do? -- 1 rn10illr>d there reading a
book .
'h'hE' r f' \\·08 that? __ In Q c ll:ssrOOr:l , il . B.
Yes? -- Sotomeln c alae bnck I,ith Vvyo J"ck. 1 rema ined
sit.t.in~ there I)nd t alk ing about thing;; 1-Ihich we.!.''.' happen ing .
Who is Vuyo Jvck ? __ ilCC liSf' C Ho . 2 .
hl(l what diu you tulk ,:;bou~ ? -- VUJ o vock stlirl - [l cCU Sf' d
);0 . 1 'hen introd"," "OOU"" No . 2" "" p".,on "ho (ZO)
\ is (lssistil1£ him in rormin~ th{' brunc h i n iicalut.o',m .
Yes vnc then? \;iDS t he re anyt .hi ne discussed ? __ i:e
ciscussed political m~t t ers .
Was un,y thine tha;; you remember discussf'd about hO\i to
GO about fO.FJling this branch in [act., this br<..lnch of SASI·j?
I do not r(,1nf'mber .
What kind of politics was discuss ed? -- 1n Jact he vms
tryinG t o show .:le t.lw t therf' W()S nothinc; ~lro1l6 1"11 t h l.his SAGtl
o r ganisutioll . AG 1 have s1)id 1 (lIn afraid of joini!lG t.hi s
o I"TInnisat ion .
1")"h:,- w(.'re you £lf I'a i d ? __ I \-; us fJf r'l"licl of polit.ics .
''';Iw t./ • ••
(30)
IH2 ;:liC:OLl, .
What of pol it.ics scored you? t:hut aspect.? - - bveryt.hing
which concerns polit.ics , an;y movelDent that 'h'BS in politic.,; .
But vlhy? __ Br-c$l.ISC you are follr:)werl O:l.r1 you get. ;'lrrf'st,"d .
'.,'hat did accused No . l , Sotomela , sOJ "\,0 c onv inc e :;o.U )
did he explain it? thu"\, there b nothill(; wronc '"ith SI\::;l'! N' h()\-]
-- Ile told me that this movement had Im0' e~5 ~;ho pro.to;>ct tllC
mem:;(,l'G and so I n eed not fear .
lJo you remember ~n.rthinG else he said at tho"\' occl)sion
aboul. Sf,S!! ' s politics'1 __ Accused !:o . 1 us ked ClC if I 1':ne',; of
any people whom I tL'Uf;t ':Iho woulu li\.:.e to join this (10)
organi.sation .
',,'hat n o:nes did you men1.Oion to him ?
llkululeko Simco , ilrnoQ!1 (li;;'o ; I.hosc I.h1'f'C.
50ndi.lc Khctele,
1..Jhat did he S~' '~hen .You t old hir:J nbout t.hE's!' people?
He said he ;l"Ould i~ept them .
AI(lthinG else you rer.lehlfJ"r said durinc \"11i:> discussi:m ? - -
tlo , I do not rcme:nlJer .
Whut ti.:ne of the df Y WD.S this discussio!l b"inB held? (20)
It wns cfter study .
1l0\~ lu'..e if; that. rno~p 01' l('ss? - - I[ter 4, so,:wt.hinG to 5.
SJ\SH? _ _ 'i'hf're 118S a meeting held on a ;"ri{:o.y .
Lid an.:rthinr; t8ke plucc lal"r on t.hut t1o:1dn;i' you told u'"
ubout? __ i ,[ t. e r SUi)per I went t.o l.i::; t.cn to t he rndio . nt l.he
t ennis court. .
',. ho went to listen to the radio? __ 11. \'II)S occusf'd jio . 1 \
and 2 , myself , l,xula and J'ikisa .
wha t time ~18S that ~orc or l .... 13S? - - :-.bou t 7 . (50)
whose radio did :rou use? __ It was uccusee ;10 . l ' s r adio .
Do/ •••
413
lJo J'ou remember ',\'1l1d. t.nis radio 10okNl. like? __ Yel) .
Can ; ... ou uescribe it.? __ It hue n br'o\\n cover .
I,nlt.hing e l se yOJ reme!:lbcr ollout the rodio?
small portable radio ( i ndicates the size) .
iH 'i'liE couar : 'l'hat is Dbout 12 inches Deross .
1m l'jtllLER ; \-;hfJt pl:oct'am did ;;0U li:,t.en to? - - [bdio <:'>]mb i a .
Yes , 3n~;thing clse? __ lIe \~'lS crit i cised becnuse he "'ent
to tIl(' uni t ed na tions . iiol;!J in[j o>lsc .
lI othi nG (olse about tJatanzima or wns nothing "'lnc (10)
suill over the pro!;ro:n? -_ It. 1-185 .... nly rhl:mzil~Q \'ino \·m5 beine;
cri ticised .
'''hul did you do ';!hen the proGnlin ('need? - - I l'lent back
to thc cl assroo;~ and Ilo . 2 sn i o he ~ .. os Goin6 bo.ck t.o t.he L doral tor;,' .
You lnld u~ about a meetine; . '-"hen wos lhe fi.l.'st ml'etinc
held lhnt you know of? __ It \"iUS on U ~' ridny .
!low lone afte r thi s incident at the tennis court. '.1hen you
listened to the radi o? _ _ It \·!Os in the SO!:lC week .
I'in.)' I shO\"I you a rudio , Ei:I1IBl'l' I? Hove;;; look at ( 20)
it plN1SC . __ Y(>5 , I see i t .
Do you recogni5e that? - - It is cimilnr to the onc w'"
Iin t. encd to .
I also Hunt ;/011 to look at EXlil BI',L" c_ . Have ~'ou seen that
before? __ 110 .
HOI-I , 110W did you learn to know about this first meetin(;
on thet i<'ri<iDY ? __ I wos laId by uccus ,-.d ;<0 . I that lhC'l'c (
W;;;$ (';oing t.o be n meetinc .
Wlwn \;erf' yOll t.old by nccuced Ho . 1 nbou't. lhis r.l,,-.line ?
It was on the ,r'ri(Ja;,' af t er supp~r . ('0)
Yes, nlld did you GO to t.he ;~eetin6 ? - - Yes .
/.Jid/ • ..
~.
l.!id anyone IJ.ccompal1,)' you? __ I I'.'c:Jt, there alone .
Where ' .. :as this mcpt.inl:? - - l~ ',~(lS 0/1 t.he V(ll',!ncul! of tht
pl'im<l l'Y.
,"rimar'y school? -- 'f co .
',Iho tonk pal' t in thi3 mCftinG or ,~ho attcnu€'d? -- Accused J
t:o . 1 , ilo . 2 , I!lJ'self , iluuoile KIHl'I..f"le , ',,' ilborforc e Sir-..xo, 1-nXlllu , Bpnson Gi yo .
liO'1l aid this llH,' etinG proceed? liow !lid it start? -- 1,,' e
sat cmm thE're and t.hen tit 7 o ' clock t.h!;' r;Jdio ~IDS s,vit.ch02C on
and then II progrDr.J wa:.; listell"d to . It Has c.bout the (10)
bus boycott. in HDt.al. 'those pI'ople t!ere being: prais('<1 for
thf' part that they tnok ill boycot.tinc t.Jwt . ~'her('arl..f'r \'le
introduced one ;:mother.
BY l'hE COURI' : when you answer the quelJ1...ions, <.Ills\','e1' 3S if you
arc l..alkinS to the people ill the back 1'01'" 'lheJ "lso wa ll t to
hear ~Ihat you are sayins . Yes .
You S(lJ th('y w('re beine; preised I01' tho part theJ took
i n boycol..tinC the bus~s ? -- yc~ .
IlR !i'LiLLER: In (20)
Xhoza .
lio',: lonr; did you lis'Len to ti)(' radio? __ unt il half past
s~v~n .
;,nd thell? __ Then we introduced onc ano ther .
lio;'l did you do that? __ One \~ou l d l3'ive his nal~e . EDCII
say it is I.! gooe thing to. join t.his mover.lent flnd holp those
','ho are in need .
How did th'" pf'l'SCnC present know ti lDt tilf"J 1'1(' re Lo
in trodu c e tilcms('l ves ? [,ccused i:o . 1 sUGcested thut ",; 0 ShOUld "
introduce ourselves . (30)
At that. st(lGo did he ~ay anythinc cis"' ? -- i:othinc els,-.
Iw/ •••
;1"(':01i, .
11(' s1Jid .
i,Iter the intro<iuctiom' ',/C re made , ',1hnt .fol lo;·! "',i ? _ _ i;c
expln ined ahout SilSIJ and its air.ls ,
Who e xpla i nf><l ? __ Accused Ho . 1.
"nd II'hal. kind of eXplan(i\'ion did h(' (;i"(' <Jbou t "M,h? __
He l'!8S mentioninG its o.i01S .
C<lll you rem<)!!Ibcr tohe D.i,~ c he mentioned ? __ Yes .
\"hu L 'were t.ll(~y? _ '~ o help i n build inG schools , t.o. help
those iu need , fund ruisiIlg I.<nd ot.her projects in helping 1.:_'
(If)
I
/,fter he had exp)<lil1cd this , (lid JlP mJy ;:,nythinc; e l se t.ho \'
you Ci'ln remember? __ 1'0 .
\Jas there any reaction in t.h" cectin!> 0. 5 to ,..hat he had
said? -- The r e was no r eaction .
1;a5 ~lflyt.hinG ('lsI' - did allJ-thil'G <)15(' toke pillce vt, this
meetinG? __ liothiu!; else _ ',.:e dispc rs '-c _
lhut I"W!; on a ~' l'ioay, HS ;;ou sa i e _ Yes .
";hen ~I1lS t he w'xl, r.lept.inc thu\, ~' (lU {ltt~ndcd? -- It \~a s
on Eo S<lt.uro'l'y _
Hm-I lone 8ft.er tllis "ridl1;;? -_ 'd',.. nf'Xt. d:l.} _ (20)
How ilio you k now about t his meet.ins? -- I ~.' '''~; 1.01,; b J-
Sinxo _
',ihere was this meetinC held ? -- It IHIS in the rucby field .
\'ihn\' rucb.:.' field"? __ i-i"'al dt.o~m ruGhy .field .
I,/llat time ~~u!) it. he ld? - - !'a!Jt. '7 - bl' tueen 7 011<! [" _
Vid you 50 to the venu e alone 01' did anyone UCC O<!lim/)y you ?
-- 1 W!lS [l CCOL1'p(;llied Ly SillXo .
'..'as t his st.ill ill !i:H~h 0.1.' lal,l> llorch , 'dou l<1 you sQ.;)' , o r
W;:l,S i t in ;,pril? _ _ It was the be(;inning of j,priL
Can you e!;:J in tell us how t.his .. eeting proc eeded II'Oll (30)
the r:lement you arl'ived? It. \103 opened \~ith a prayer .
By / __ _
~.
by Io;hor.:t? __ 1 do not rc:nc:.1bGl:' .
J.'h"n introductiollS lICTf' r:wde ; "'Jcll p(>n'ion introduc(>d
llii~S('l[ .
] sl..i11
rCr.1('!~lJer BNle . I ,
" \
Giyo , I;~aki , Ilxulu ; I do no~ L'e;~ember toll", ot\; crs . ·';uyo llaleni,
"-here were quite u fe;.; ne1; persons at this !:lee-ti:1b ' (10)
Did you see tl".e rudio at thut .'ncetillg? __ Y"s , thct'C
was .
t, pror;rn:n 'lies l istened over it .
''':hat progrur.l ',,,as t!lut? It \;a5 broadcastinG fro:n ,"Hobia .
.It t what stace die you listen to this l'acio? i3,:.1'o1'e this
pruyer :md int;t'oG.uct.ion or aftf! l'wards? __ I think beror" the
intl'oduction .
Can you rel'lrG'lbcl-' what. the proGram ,,"as abou1.. ? __ I uo no't
remember . (20)
Jay 1 brine you back 'then . lOU sDid you 1ist.l:ned ~o thf>
radio, t.her" "o'las 0. preyer, th("re l~o.S t.hi::o intrOc.llctior. . __ Yes .
What rf)llo~lI:,d the intl"oc1uction? __ :rxpl!Jnutif)n 1"!1l!3 r.1ode
for the new Cenbel'fl Donut SAEri .
Will j<"lU just repeat 'that. plcosc? -- Explctna1..ion W,""; made
about SAS~! t.o th!' new ~f'mbf'rs .
',Iho madp this exp11lno.tior. ? - - Sotome1u lidukwamJ ,
Ho . 1.
uccus ed I
"'hD.'t did he IOU::"? __ He W!.lS t"11in(; the ne~! r.l("mocrs about
the oitls . ( ;;0)
"le5? __ If<> .".OS ass i st.ed Ii:! 1lc c used 110 . 2 .
·,ihat. did accused ;.0 , 1 say abou t. the (;ims? __ lie m'.-flLionec
of t.he aii:ls , the build:'.ng oJ." schools, etc .
"nd uccUSAd 1:0 . 2 , what did \If:' say? __ He t.ulked und said
you must. be prepared to suffer for your own pf"ople , to serv'"
them and sacrific" .
Did he soy hO\'1 one tins to suffer or in ~Ihat ~!":i one could
exp"ct; to suffer? -- I. person mist b~ prcpU{'ml to suU'rr ,
l>'hct11e1' he is sufferinG in uny manner .
13't 'dIE COlllfL' : I CAnnot hear , 1 8m sorry . __ ~'o suffrr in 8n,),
mOlUwr . (10)
IU{ H\jLLEa ; ·.'hllt did he suy about s"l'vice? -- !ie i>'l :l.O t! !"l"rson
must servp his prople .
JlO~I? By doinl! what? -- To help those \·.'ho arE' in nAed
of help .
Vid he say anythinG else? -- lle t.hen said Some of t.he
thinGs i:; to skip flnd (';0 t o other I:fric an stotes .
Did he rJt'y \-Iller" one - to 11i1ich countries one \·/Oule.. sl:ip?
bot.swana uno then 50 up~:ords, furth e r north .
Did h" suy \"Ihut route ("Ine \"Iould take to c;o to BotCtH)Ila?
You start. from t.he head qua.rters a. t King , then y ou So (20)
to Durbon , then you (';0 out .
l4hy , accordinG to acc used 1';0 . 2 , \'Iould one s]':ip th<'
border? I-.'hat could one do ? ~:o bf~ t r ainee..
'f o be trainpd in ~ihat? In weapons .
What kind of weapons? __ li ic;htinc; , !:lilit.(J.ry \·Ienpons .
For I-Ihat l'eason. woulf. onp ulIGcrGo this tr'Jinine? 1,:lllJt
would O:lC clo ~Iith this? what should one do once on'" has
completed thi!;; traininr;? __ '1'0 com!:' und libe r<1t'" hi s people
here .
Ho'",,? -- By (;ue rillu. wH rfare . (30)
Did he explain 8n:tthing elsE' , U',u t il> accusl'd 1:0 . 2 ? __ I
60/ ...
1118
do n'lt. rl:r:l"mber anyt.h inb els" .
'" jVlt WUH accus()o :10 . l' oS t'cact.ion to t.l,is l>i)l-cCh ')5 fiJr
us you could see? __ lie also dio some explui:lillG that he knew
about. 51,Sf-] .
BY 'l'll;:; COVH~' ; '..Jh[!t do you mean b;,' t.hat? __ lie assisted ill
t his and ~Ienti(lll,",d th" h"ud quarters in King in <"wclitsh<: .•
rom ifu],LE,, ; Did he hove uny COin:.J "jlt on t.his r:m_ttcr of skipping
th e borders, as you soy, tmd uncp-rc;:oing this trllinine;? __ Be
sai<i that \':es t.ll(' nwin object of it .
Did 'you ('ver s"e a const.itu t.ion of ~hSIl? A \-:rit,t.en (10)
o r Ii typed constitution? -- I did s(,p it .
\,"as this aspect of fikippinc; til" c ountr'J <:Inc undcq;o ing
military traininG r .... ferrcd to in thiG typed constitution or
not? __ lio .
Di d an,yOil(> else .speak 01. t.his r:H~f'tinc ;you have j llS t been
test.ifyinG Dbout.? __ 110 , I do not rf'f.l H1ber en,)' ot"hfr PU"SOll
tall-:ine; .
the :nannpr you suic, "~that t"hen [01101/1"'0 t het. you cun rH:l"'lnlJfr?
It \"las succpst.ed Lhat. tf:P .sonsu should be suns .
"~"ho SU{;(;f'sted thot? -- 'tho.se which we r e suns in t hat
prOGram which we used t.o listen to on t.hf' r ad io .
But who sUGgested that.? __ I ~~t wa..§. Si ~!ln U£....!
am not mist.nkcn .
( 20)
~ihat songs did he refer t.o? What ar(> the nB-ml'S of the
sOI1GZ? -- ,"",yibuye E Afrika .
Cun you remember --;he name of Dny other song ? __ Yes, therr:
WBS unother sonG but I do not knQI"J its nanf' .
l,iha t "d el'e t)-lCSC l>oncs about ? __ 'l1l0.sc vlerc t.he son(;s ~!hich
were sung in tllo5'3 proBruIDs . (0)
.!rr...!liE COliiU : "iE'S . tlH' Prol>ecutor says \'!!wt W f- r~ theJ abou t?
I-.jwt/ • ..
419
'~'nat ... : ere thr contents of t.hf' rlr)ngs? __ I.?yibujc E "l'ric:I ,
Africa should return .
r-:..'l j-fuLLER : Do you l'er.let:'lber what. t.he ot her song \~I.1S I.=bout? __
Vo!'strr will cry 'rlhen we caDle back .
Hepc(!1, tn;;;1, plpase . -- Vars1,er wou1t'l cry I,h"'ll \'1(' C O I~C bac;'; .
'l'hose wer e the songs tlhich ~'Iere SUlle there .
Af t ~ r ... his , ... he sug{;est.ion was %I.dc th«t t.h"se sonc;s be
sunG, whnL Look place on t.his ~,eet. i nt; ? __ I do not, l'e:JleC1bel'
an,Ythins ('Is€' .
Lid t.he Jl<>cting close as l'ur as .i'ou c un rc~c ::1.b",r? (IO)
__ I think an f' xcc utive ::ilLs .ili£.t.ed i f 1 em not. Clist.2k~.
Are 'you sure about that, t.hat t.he executive '.res elected
a t this meeting ? -- I think so , I am not sure .
\..e will come to that just now . A[1,er the election , as you
l'eC1f' l:lber it , \~hat t.ool: place ? -- A SUbSCl'ip1,io!1 fee ',laS
rnen1,ioned as 50 cent.s and 30 c en LS mon1,hly .
'cnything eIs!'!? __ It \~IlS sllid ~ hlJt 1,1'.e const.it.ution c ould
be Got fl'o:n t.he head qua rters in t.hp res ion .
fly ~Iho!!l was it snid? -- By tlccu8"d Iln . L
ilny t llin!:;; else? -- I do not rC[!Jf';:Jbcr a~thing else . (20)
liow d i d the meeting end ? __ Uy prayer .
(.;an you re:.lember who said ~he pr .. yer? -- I do n:) t, remember .
(.;an you re!!lember b r oadl ,Y speaking 1 lih:Jt. the c on1, en1,s of t.hl'
prayer was? -- Jehovah 's c;uidance was r eques t ed to (;uide us in
all t,ha t Wf' '.1 e l·e doing .
110· ... , you ment ioned t.h e executive . '~'ho had what. posi t.i on
i n the eXE'cut.iv c ? -- !.ccused Ho . 1 was t he president. , t. he
vic e- prE'sident I<'as a ccust;'d Ho . ) , i'ikulu ] eko S i nxo was t. he
trel1surcr (l sBisl. ('d by Andile I~c;a;ci , a ccused iio . : was ~he
orgcnising sf'c ret.ar,Y Dssis t f'd by 'lu;;o Ealeni. and
adt'li tional r:wmb ers . Benson (;ij'~ and o;,·self .
(30)
t,.' '15 / ., • ~~. ''"~"'' t,,_ ....
...". U .,d.L.:/
420 i,uCOl~_ .
It- I-Ia5 accuGed 1;0 . -4 .
or el("cted as ors;allisi:lg secre~ary? -- ilc I-!OS th!> person to Co
and collect. the const.Hut.ion in KinG .
BY i.l,E COUR.l' : '"hy was lH" elected o:.'e;anisin(l sPcl"(t-arJ?
Ii:~ Jil;LI,ER ; \-Ihy not l'O ~' instancr yout"Self? -- It \':IlS s:;1(! he
tillS t.he person who was goint:; to t.nlve l fo r this orGBniS(1tion .
Can you rer.lember any other specific :ll"'etinc t.hat. j'o" had
attended ? Yes .
' ... ·hen WD.S that meeting? HOI-I soon nIt.er this Llcet.inG (10)
that ~:ou have just testified auout? -- 1 1111 no t sure, but.
that was art-er 'l'uso hat! announced in the ball l.r.:Jt. therl;;- were
ot her peopl!' who ar€' tll isl ead ing othe r studcnt-G b~' list!>ning to
t he radio , listening to progr(l:~s "hich are not- prop<>r .
And then a :ne("t.in~ 1"105 held? __ Yps .
Gon you remember .,·here? __ It ,iDS also held in t.he 1'ielo .
',,'lHlt happened a t. th"!t r.lce,;ins? firstly , Ithat. t.im€' was it
held morc or less ?
ijO~1 !lDny persons wcre present <11" thi!l meet.inG? -- 'l'h(> satlc
people who ·.1 f'rf' present ll/lC ot.hers . J.hf"ru ~Icre 01150 (20)
ne\'1 membprs .
llY '.i'liE GOliR'i : when you SEty t he sane pcoplf' l'lna \'lerE' pr{'s"nt ,
do you mean pl'f'sent a t. tht' previnus mef>ting or pr(>scnt I-ihere?
J,t prev i ous meetin!)s .
lEt HULLEil. ; now did t his meeting st!lrt? __ \;' ith IJ pray!?.I.' .
By I-Iho:n? __ I 00 not rAmc:nber whet.her it was Etccused No . 4
or not .
what. 'I.'a~ the dut.c of t.his lleeting 1lI01'e or l eGS ? -- I do
not,. rf':nernber cl ea l"ly, but it was in April.
Vid you pray in any sp<>ciDI way, in any speciul (30)
bodil~' at titude? -- 1 do not follow the question .
Lid/ •.•
421
Did .'Iou sto nd o r si t. .l.ll allY <;pecial "IIvy whil"t. p1'<1;;ing 1
I \~as stnndill6 on my rt'et. {Ind ra is ed the righ't fisi" .
lifter t.he praye r? t 'hen a discuusioll about ·",het 'i'u so
had said . It l<I'as Sons of ,\friel> were llf'Il'Lioned . I \,'ho r.lentioned this? __ Ac cu sed 110 . 1.
I.'hat did he s<"jI about t he SO!1S of AfL' iea ? Le sa i d 'l'veo
di5!ikes thf' l "{lc t ~Ili:lt th e;/ h«ll jus t arrived t here iiI" ~'CS
occu sill(; him by a cc used _ 'l 'USO Krwnlla IlC CUS£,U accus"d ;;n . 1 01'
mislcedinc t hE' o1.h-:r5 .
Yes , was ~.'uso Kew(!lla pr£'srnt. ?
rnef'tinG , he said t h i s ~n tllf' hnll, in Lhf' c inins - hull .
Y"5 1 __ It was sUGGesl.'<'d that. pooplf' should 'l!e elec ted
so "L ha t. t hey should l;!;o ana SPl:'ul: "\,0 tht' ::'0115 or I f .L'ica .
was snlone elected? -- Accused lie . 4 and a ccused i\"o . 1
were e l ected . 4
'Hhat next took pla ce on this lilef''ti!"!G? -- f ccused i;o . 4
thf'n (;1.Jv!' ,n e xplanation ubout phose 1 ene. phase 2 of ~/,SH .
wha t did ho "Y w"' phasf' l? -- 31act.:: consciousness,
awarf'nes s .
4-
Iwa rnll('ss of '"ho t? - - Of you r beiIl{;: black . ( 2 0)
l.nd ph8se 2 ? -- 'l:he ~ w,s t o undergo r:J.i litary \..1'ainin6 · 4-where ? -- III t he African ztates .
• ' lJa t kind of r:lili-;aL'Y t raining ? -- ',.j<ll' tuctics .
Di e. h" mention where t his trnining ,;8S to be undergone?
In c ountries J i::e Una n'lique .:wd o ther " f1'ican stat"s .
Di d he expla in \~ha:t one who had c.ecidcd to undnrcc this
t1'ainine; , h3d to do? In other words what s t EePS had such a
p" r S0n to t ake if hf' wan t f'd to undergo tI',-1iniIl6 ? -- i'o .
Did r.e say what o:J.e h ud to do nfter co:nplt' tillg tn!' tra inir.[~
',,'ould c O.ne ond liberate the iHucks by fiGhting . (30)
By fightinc in wlJa\.. malm,,1'? -_ In £:; \I(ril18 wll1'l"ore .
I..ho/ •• •
422
',iho of t he accus ec .... 'E'!'E' p r esent at. t.hi:: meetinc;, if <lo.;' ?
!,par t.. f rom DCClHl'i'() Ho . 1 tlmt. y ou have
Ho . 4 ? __ 1:0 . 2 unc. 3 ,",ere present .
[,n,er IIccused 1:0 . 4 hao f.xp1aillNi these t.. \o.' O phaselS , oid he
SDY a!1;1 thjnc el s e ? -- j,ccus ed ;;0 . 3 olso t..1J1keo bboU L b1uck
Is l..ha 1.. al"te:' acc1.:sed i'o . 4 ' s speech or be1'or~? -- Yes .
JUter or before ? __ !<Ctf'r .
'. h a t did he sa:; about Black c onsciousness? __ he suid one
should lik'" l". irtse1f a ne. not takE' himself as an infe r i or . ( 10)
Vio he say fin,y t.hinF; e l s e about '.l ims of ~.A::>II? __ 'lIw t.. uni t.~,
in the orsDn i s·1t i on .
Anyth:inc cls" , -- ""thillS clsf> .
Do you rE';;]cmber o!\yone f'l.:>e $,.,yi11[; on~'t hin!;; D C this
particula r t:Jp.e tinc ? __ il" , t.h",re is 1I0Lhi!J(; "ls(' 1 co!'! rl'In"muf'l' .
1Jt) you rE'rnf:':tlb!'r how t hE' rn"et i n[: ~';)S Cl OSEd? -- l.'it./1 <"
pL'a;"f'r .
by whot:l ? -- 1 do not remember whether it. ~'as accusec !;o .
4 or not. .
( 20)
'/(1L U,W, 5/ . ..
Collection Number: AD1901 SOUTH AFRICAN INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS, Security trials Court Records 1958-1978 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg ©2012
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