the following transcript of lorne poulin’s interview on€¦ · are ex-officio game officers...
TRANSCRIPT
The following transcript of
Lorne Poulin’s interview
on
Memories and Music (broadcast November 8, 1981)
was created by the Sudbury Public Library as part of a
Summer Canada Project
in 1982.
SUDBURY PUBLIC LIBRARY
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11 EMORIES & IvlUSIC 11
INCO LTD . CIGH
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
INTERVIEWEE : Lorne Poulin POSITION : Staff Sergeant ,
R. C. M. P .
DATE : 1982 INTERVIEVlER: Gary Peck
TRANSCRIBER: TAPE NilllBER:
Bonnie Savage 167
DATE OF THAN.: May 1982 SU~1ER CANADA PROJECT
THENE : 50- year history of R. C. M. P . in Sudbury , November 7 , 1931 - November 7 , 1981
G.P . Hello , I ' m Gary Peck , your host on I'1emories and Music presented at 1 : 00 p . m. by Inco Metals Company . This week my guest will be Staf f Sergeant Lorne Poulin , and we ' ll be talking about the Royal Ganadian f·1ounted Police . In general the history of the force and in particular the fifty year history in Sudbury . Join Lorne Poulin and myself Sunday at 1 :00 when Inco Hetals presents Memories and f.lusic on Stereo 92 . 7 CIGH Ff.l .
G.P . Welcome to the interview portion of Memories and Music , today our guest is Staff Sergeant Lorne Poulin , and welcome to the program Mr . Poulin . Ah , Lorne , you ' re involved with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and perhaps you could share with us , - well what prompted you to go into the force , to join the R. C. M. P . ? Start there .
L.P . Well to tell the truth , I ' d never even heard of the Mounted Police before I got interested in it when I was in high s chool . I thought a Hounted Policeman was somebody that rode a horse and wore red serge and I was very surprised to be on a train one day and see somebody wearing a brown outfit and I didn ' t know who he was , and that got me interested , and I found out he was a Mounted Policeman .
G. P . How old were you at the time?
L. P . I was eighteen .
G. P . '. Eighteen . Did you have an interest , - well even prior to that age in terms of going into some police force? I think many boys have a fasination with that , but is
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it , - wa s i t a car eer you actua lly thought you mi ght ent er as a young person .
Well , I was ver y int er ested i n the militar y as such . My father had been i n t he Lake Superior Regi ment * in , Thunder Bay dur ing the Second World War , and I was k lnd of a military background ah , a r my cadet s , air cadet s , that sort of th i ng , and I had applied f or the Officer Trai ning i n the Mil i tary at Kingston and I , - then , -when I got out of school , - and I a lso appl i ed f or t he force and fort unate l y , or unf ortunatel y , the R. C.M. P . took me f i rst .
Now , was your training in Reg ina?
Ah , in both places .
Regina and Kings t on?
No , no , in Ottawa .
Ottawa and Reg ina?
Yeah , it started out , six months in Ottawa , and then the second part traini ng was three months , no , f i ve mont hs in Regina .
mmhh . I can r emember when I was , - must have been about twelve , - we were in Regina , and I , I watched , - had the opportunity of watching the R. C • • P . going through the exercises . It seemed to me to be very rigorous training .
Yes , i t was . Nowadays of course they don ' t , they don ' t have the r i de , the equitation part of it and I received my equitation tra ining i n Ottawa , although they were t ea ching you to ride in both places at that t i me . Since then ah , or , ' bout ten , twelve years ago , they stopped giving the ride to everybody and now only the people who are goi ng i nto the Musica l Ride r eceive trai ning .
What \vere the r easons for that change ah , - changing roles of the R. C. M. P ., - cost •••• ?
Cos t , changing roles and what not . I always thought that it was , it was a good thing . Churchhil l s a i d , "the outside of the hor se , is good for the inside of the man ," and I thought it was good training .
*The Regiment originated on 3 July 1905 , when a regi ment of infantry designated the "96th The Lake Superior Reg iment " on Dec . 1905 , was authorized with headquarters a t Port Arthur . It was redesignat ed : "The Lake Superior Regiment ", 15 Harch 1920 .
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G. P. Very colourf ul too , wasn ' t it?
L.P . Yes .
G. P . Very colourful aspect of the history .
L. P . Yes .
G.P . What type of work is the R. C. M. P . involved in today?
L. P . Well it ' s k ind of a broad question , ah , you can divide it into three general areas : federal law enforcement , provincial law enforcement , and municipal law enforcement . In ah , ten of the , of the , er , eight of the ten provinces and the territories , we are the provincial police force , and in many municipalities we are also the municipal police force . It ' s only in Ontario and Quebec that all we do is federal law enforcement . So in these two provinces we ' re spread kind of thin , and we have huge areas to look after . The Sudbury Detachment Ar ea for instance , looks after the whole of the district of Sudbury , district of Manitoulin , and most of the district of Par ry Sound . So , ••••
G. P. The force operating out of Park Street ••••
L. P . Oh , I ' m sorry .
G. P . • ••• would be responsible for areas north of Chapleau?
L .P . Yeah .
G.P . As far west as Manitoulin and , including Parry Sound district ?
L. P . Yeah , right down to I'1acTier .
G. P . That ' s very extensive territory .
L. P . Yes .
G. P . Also part of Georgian Bay , I would assume?
L. P . Yes , right to the American border on Georg ian Bay , yeah .
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That is a large t erritory . How many men do you have ?
Ri ght now , we have a s t aff of eighteen men , and four civil servant s .
NOW , you ' ve outlined the broad areas of involvement . f1unicipally , what type of work would you be involved in?
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L. P. Not in ••••
G. P . Not in Ontario so it ' s mainly federal. What type of activities would the force be involved in , in this area .
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In our Detachment , we are divided up into a number of sections , a specialist if you want to call them , we have a security service section . You ' ve all heard about the McDonald commission , and what not .
Well- read document across the country .
Right . Ah , we had two men in the , - that do security service investigations here , and ah , their area not only encompasses just the areas that just gave you but all of North- East ern Ontario , so they have quite an extensive area . Then we have a National Crime Investigated Unit , - and when I t alk about National Crime , I mean , I ' m meaning syndicated crime , organized crime . And their area is also all of North- Eastern Ontario . Then we have a drug section , and we have a general investigative section which looks after a myriad of federal laws , for instance there ' s customs , and exise and income tax , explosives , aeronautics , there ' s some fifty or sixty different federal laws that they look after . We have one man on a , what we call a Mi gratory Bird and Canada Shipping Act Enforc ement .
They link those two together?
Yeah , well most Migratory Bird enforcement is done from a boat , so they link them t ogether . And they come at different seasons , you ' re enforcing the Canada Shipping Act which in this area doesn ' t mean shipping it means small boats . So we ' re looking after the small boats during the summers and then we are also looking after t he migratory birds , - the ducks , and the geese , - in the spring and in the fall .
mmhh . Now you ' d be working in concert with the Provincial Government and t e Ministry of Natural Resourses anyways .
L. P . mmhh . Oh yeah .
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V/hat , - actually what is your i nvolvement regarding the Migratory Bird Act so there isn ' t overlap with Natural Resourses ?
Well there is an overlap ••••
There is?
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L. P . • ••• yeah . We are ex- officio game officers under the Ontario Federal , ah , - Ontario Game and Fish Act . Like wise , the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resourses enforcement officers are ex- officio enforcers er , - peace officers under the Migratory Bird Act .
G. P . So that in fact if , if someone wer e hunting illegally you could lay a charge .
L. P . Yes . During the fall , at the start of the hunt ing season for instance , \.,re share our facilities . vie make two man patrols , one of our officers and one of theirs and that sort of thing .
G. P . mmhh . It seems like you have quite a busy , - quite a large territory and I ' m sure the force is quite busy . You mentioned earlier that ah , in addition , you ' re planning a celebration , - a fifty year history of the R. C. M. P . in Sudbury . First we ' ll turn the program over to Doug McLaughlin , and then we ' ll come back and tal k about that history . Our guest today on Memories and Music is Lorne Poulin . In j ust a few moments we ' ll continue with our interview .
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(MUSIC )
Welcome back to the interview portion of Memories and Music . Our guest t oday is Staff Sergeant Lorne Pouli n and we are talking about the Royal Canadian Mounted Police , and the history of that force in Sudbury . Commencing with , - I think you had indicated , - 1931?
1931 , seventh of November .
So you ' re celebrating right now , you ' re celebrating fifty years history in this community .
Yes .
Earlier you ' d talked about the various activities of the R. C.M. P . and had commented that , - well what is one of the major activities of the R. C.M. P . ? The major one as you would see it .
Well we ' re getting more and more into commercial crime .
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And ah , • • • •
What do we mean by commercial crime , ah , - that crime associated with businesses? Fraud?
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L.P . Well , from our point of view we , we ' re looking more at fraudulent bankruptcies , fraudulent obtaining of grants , federal grants , - things like unemployment insurance , LEAP grants , DREE grants , that sort of thing .
G. P . That can be fairly extensive I would think?
L. P . Yes .
G. P . A fair amount of r esearch just documenting the abuse .
L .P . For instance , we had a case that went here a while ago , that involved two men for eight months . And that ' s all they did was work on that one particular case . Of course \ve can ' t do it all by ourselves • •••
G. P . mmhh .
L . P . • ••• we have to hire accountants , local accounting f i rms to help us . We are trained in some accounting , and what not , but to act ually put a set of books together and , ••••
G. P . To go through it with a fine - toothed c omb , that ' s another story .
L.P . And it ' s usually a second set of books that we ' re looki ng for , and that sort of thing .
G. P . Their hard to find I ' m sure .
L.P . Right .
G. P . Now , back in 1931 , I doubt the force had to concern themselves too much , - if at all - with the types of programs you ' re tal king about , and the kind of abuses that you were just mentioning , in terms of federal programs . Is tha t a fair assumption?
L. P . Yeah , I would think so . Probably back in 1931 , - I don ' t know exactly why they opened the detachment here , but they opened a one- man detachment in 1931 , - a fellow by the name of Constable Pink . They opened up a , kind of a , one- room office building in a , in a , building called the New Ontario Building on Durham Street which I understand was just about three hundred yards from the C. P . R. station . What his duties were , I don ' t know . I would imagine back in those days he was mainl y concerned with custom ' s violations . He would be an exofficio custom ' s officer . He would be looking at , at ah , federal l a\'ls like excise . I think they had quite a bit to do with that was during the depression , and I think they had quite a lot to do with trans i ents on the C.P .R. and that sort of thing.
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G.P. mmhh . NO"J the initial building was , - or the office I expect , - was as you indicated , in the Ontario Building . Currently you are on Sparks Street . Now what has happened in the mea.ntime . You ' ve made a few moves .
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Well in , - around 1940 , - we went to the old federal building on the corner of Elm and Durham which is now the Woolworth ' s Building . We \vere there until 1958 .
So that building would be the very attractive old stone post office that we used to have in this community .
That ' s right .
And I ' m sure many of our audience will recall that .
Yeah . I think we were on the sec ond floor there . In 1957 they decided they were going to build , - what we call our modular building , - their own building , - the forces ' own building . We had a modular plan that we built all across Canada . So they bought land in New Sudbury , - and got contract , - and started building it , but in the meantime I think there was somet hing , - either they told us to vacate the old federal building , or something ••••
What year was this?
That would be in 1958 .
I think they were tearing it down .
Probably they were tearing it down and we had to get out of the old federal building before our new building was finished . So as a result , we moved into the new federal building on Lisgar Street for about six or eight months . And then in January of 1959 , we moved into our building on Sparks Street .
mmhh . You mentioned the force began with one individual . It ' s grown over the years ? Have you ever had more people than you have now? More on your force?
No .
Did it peak during a particular period of time ?
No .
No .
It peaked i n different sections . Remember I talked about the different sections we had ••••
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G. P . Right .
L. P . • ••• and I mentioned that we had two men in security service . Well a t one time we had as high as seven in security service . But the duties and the population have changed and the different kind of crime that have changed over the years and as a result , some sections have expanded and others have shrunk , but over all we ' ve increased the size of the detachment quite a bit .
G. P . No , I ' m quite interested in the early history of the R. C. M. P . What were their uniforms like? Were they the , - back in 1931 , - were they the uniforms we r ecognize today associated with , - well the mounted R. C. H. P .
L. P . Ah , ••••
G.P . Fairly similar?
L.P. • ••• it was around 1920 that we stopped using the red serge , boots , and britches , uniform with the Stetson .
G. P . Very colourful though .
L.P . Yes , - that you know , - that we , - that everybody thinks of when they think about the R. C. N. P . We started using a brown serge jacket , - again a riding jacket but open collar , not the high collar that t he red serge had , -along with boots , and britches , along with riding boots . But we also developed black boots and long pants as a working uniform , because that red serge , you j ust can ' t keep it clean .
G. P . No .
L. P . And we ' ve used that ••••
G.P . It ' s so easily identified .
L.P . • ••• right . But we ' ve used that right straight through until about 1965 or ' 66 at which time nearly everyone in Ontario went to civil ian c lothes , and that ' s why you don ' t see too many R. C. M. P . uniforms around in Ontario nowadays .
G. P . I haven ' t seen one for quite awhile , except in Ottawa and Parliament Hill .
L. P . Right .
G. P . Lorne , I think you have a list there of the various individuals , - I ' m not sure what their titles were , -
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but those who \'lere in charge of the local detachment here . Starting with , - I think you said , Sergeant ••••
L. P . Constable Pink .
G. P . • ••• Const able Pink .
L. F . There was a fellow by the name of Corporal ••••
G. P . vlhat years are we t alking about ?
L .P . Well , ' 30 , ' 31 , was Pink .
G. P . So he was only in for one to two years .
L. P . One year , yeah .
G. P . ~as he in the R. C •••• - Do you have much data on him at your local detachment ?
L. P . I do know that he ' s deceased now ••••
G. P . Ri ght .
L.P . • ••• and that he was , - vThen he was here he was single . His regimental number was 10199 which means he would probably have joined the force sometime around 1923 , -he would have had to wait about eignt years service when he got in there .
G. P . Do , - does the force have photographs of him?
L.P . I have , - I have one photograph .
G. P . You have one photograph . Do you have photographs of most of the individuals who ran the detachment ?
L. P . Unfortunately not .
G. P . No .
L. P . No .
G. P . Maybe that ' s something that we ' ll be able t o pick up later on in the program and perhaps some of our audience might be able to help us out . The other people following Pink?
L. P . A fellow by the name of Traves , and I think his first name was Harry*, Vias here from ' 33 to ' 35 . And then from ' 36 to ' 39 , a Corporal Turner , and I don ' t have
*act ually Howard
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too much on either one of those , a l though I kn ow both of them are deceased . They , - this Turner a ctua l l y had a lot more service than Pink . He probably joi ned t he f or c e around 1919. The next N. C. O. in charge of the detachment was a f e l l ow by the name of J . D. Burger , and he was here during the war years ' 40 to ' 44 . He is also deceased but an inter esting thing was from 1952 until 1962 he \vas the Chief of Police here i n the city of Sudbury , - prec eeded ••••
G. P . Chief Shilliday .
L. P . • ••• Chief Joe Shilliday. From ' 45 t o ' 49 we had a Corporal ( James ) Berryman who is also deceased ; ' 50 to ' 52 , a Corporal (Walton) Routledge ; ' 53 for a very short time was a Sergeant Eric Schell , - was the f i rst Sergeant we had here . Eric is sti ll alive and he wil l be comi ng to' our celebration next week . And then after him was a fellow by the name of Ernie Cubitt , Sergeant Erni e Cubitt , ' 56 to ' 58 , - he is also coming ; from ' 59 to ' 63 was a Sergeant Merv Li nden , and Merv is retired from the force now and he is living in Hali_ax and he works for the Department of National Revenue there ; from ' 64 to ' 65 there was a Sergeant R. W. Malloch , and he had red hair so everybody cal led him "Red " I guess . Red is also retired from the force , and he is a golf pro dO\vn in Gananoque . He ' s not coming back to the celebration , he ' s going on vacation he told me . From ' 66 to 1970 was Staff Sergeant Al Gosswell , that ' s the first Staff Sergeant that we bad here . Al is out of the force now . His son is quite vTell knovm in the c ity here , - Ron , who is with one of the T. V. stations here and is now running the Burger King on Barrydowne . Al and his wife are coming back to the celebration. From 1971 to ' 72 was a Sergeant Dunc Donald who is out of the force and living in Ottawa ; and then in ' 72 I came along .
G. P. , You ' ve been here as long , if not longer than anyone? Is that ••••
L. P . Yes , I ' ve been here longer than anyone .
G. P . So how many have there been approx imately , - were there about eight or ten ?
L. P . Fourteen .
G. P . Fourteen . r·1ath is not my strong point . About fourteen . Alright we ' re going to t urn the program back to Doug McLaughlin , and when we come back we ' ll talk about the celebrations that you have planned . First we ' l l hear from Doug McLaughlin .
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(MUSIC )
Welcome back to the interview portion of Memories and usic . Staff Sergeant Lorne Poulin is our guest and we ' ve been talking about the Royal Canadian Mounted Police . The l'-iounted Police have been in Sudbury since 1931 and in f act on November 7 , the force will be celebrating fifty years of history . Lorne , I understand you have , have fairly elaborat e celebrations associated 1rlith the upcoming week .
Well I guess the ir pretty elaborate . NOW , we didn ' t start out to be that .
That ' s often the case isn ' t it .
I was reading a book ah , you ' ve probably discussed it on your program before , "Tvlel ve 0 ' Clock and All is 'dell" written by E . G. Higgins here in the city . It ' s a victorial history of the law enforcement in the Sudbury district , and mainly about the Sudbury Police Department .
nd I was amazed to discover that the force was started here on the seventh of November , 1931 , and I had found that book , and sort of plant ed a little seed in my mind , and I said , "well you kn01rl , we should have a l i ttle celebration to show that we ' ve been here for fifty years " and maintained kind of a low profile usually here , and I thought show the people that we ' re still here and we ' ve been here for fifty years , and ••••
Alive and well.
• ••• let ' s show the people what we do and see what we can do . So we started out with that in mind and its ballooned t o what we have planned for the vleek .
NOW, you ' ve had over a hundred and fifty people ••••
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• ••• associated with the local detachment during the fifty years .
They have been stationed here , yeah .
Now , you indicated the celebrations have mushroomed , -the plans have mushroomed . I understand there is something associated with Civic Square right now , for example .
Ah , no , not Civic Square .
Ah , not Civ •••• , - I , - right , the New Sudbury Plaza .
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L.P. ~ ight . We got in touch with our public relations a-ranch , and I wa s , - asked them what can you do to help us out . Wel l I said we ' ve got lot s of displays . So we said send us some up , and they did , - and we got seven tons of displays . ha ha ha .
G. P . These are associated with the force in general?
L. P . Yeah , they show duties of the force , something about our trainin and something about our public relations branch . vle ' ve got displays , there , - electronic displays and slide shows for the kids , - one called lIyou be the Witness , 1I for instance where you look at a picture , and then the picture was blanked out , and you ' re asked a question on the picture , and you try to remember or recall what went on in the picture and guess , and then the right answer comes on . Very popular with the k ids .
G. P . I ' m sure it would be .
L. P . We have another one . It ' s "You be the Policeman , 1I and you ' re shown a scene and given a situation report as to what is happening ; it ' s a bank robbery or it ' s a neighbours dispute or something , and there ' s a whole list of action that could be taken and you decide on vJhat would be the appropriate action , and then you press a button and they t ell exactly what ••••
G. P . So these are hands - on displays .
L. P . Yeah , sure . And the kids get a great kick out of them . We have quite an extensive drug display , and a very beautiful display on migratory birds . We have, there must be thirty di ferent stuffed birds there .
G. P . So when you were talkino about tons of material you weren ' t necessarily , - you were not exaggerating .
L. P . No I wasn ' t .
G. P . Well I ' ll have to get over and see t hat display . Lorne what do you have planned in terms of , - well encouraging people to corne back . Of course a number have moved on , will be unable to come back ; a, number have died of course over the years , but what do you have planned?
L. P . Well , we went to the force historian in Ottawa and vie asked him to research for us , the names of the people who had been here , and we , - he looked up where they are now . 'Je frote them all a letter and invited them to corne back to Sudbury for a little celebration. We are getting sixty , - a little over sixty people who are coming back out of the hundred and fifty , who are still alive .
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G. P . Sixty?
L. P . Yeah .
G. P . Now , on November the seventh , - are you , is that you ' re going to have the celebration .
L. P . Yes . We' re starting out , - most of the people are arriving on the Friday night . We ' re having a little get together , re - acquainted party at the Sheraton Caswell . The next morning we ' re having a bus tour , for all the guests , of the city , - because a lot of them have not seen Sudbury in many years . They ' re going to take in the University and Copper Cliff and the Cambrian College , and the newer parts of the city , and Ramsey Lake and what not ; ending up at the City Hall , - at the Civic Centre , - we ' re going to go into the Civi c Centre and Chairman Davies is going to make a presentat i on to the force there , and he ' s also going to have a little presentation on some of the things that have happened to the city and is going to happen in the next few years like the Science Centre and what not ; a little slide s 01 for the people .
G. P . ight .
L. P . We ~ re going to have a little luncheon after that at the Knights of Columbus Hall just across the street from the Civic Centre and then in the evening we ' re going to have a reception , and a regimental dinner and dance .
G.P . And I imagine throughout that time , there ' s go ing to be a fair amount of swapping of tall tales ••••
L. P . I would imagine .
G. P . • ••• associated with the force . Now that ' s the place to be with a tape recorder , ha ha ha , I would think ••••
L. P . That ' s right , yeah .
G.P . • ••• the later on in the evening , the better the stories I imagine .
L.P. Yeah , that ' s right .
G.P . Lo_ne , I think "'ve ' re going to , - vie ' 11 wrap up this section of the interview portion . Vlhen we c ome back perhaps we could , - you could share with us , ways i n which our audience could help out because there are certain items you might be looking for .
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L. P . Right .
G. P . First we ' ll turn the program back to Doug r'lcLaughlin .
(NUSIG )
G. P . Vlelcome back to the interview portion of Nemories and ~1usic . Lorne Poulin has been our guest and Lorne we have just finished talking about the celebrations you have planned for November the seventh to commemorate fifty years of the R. G. M. P . in Sudbury . We have quite an extensive list ening audience , and in what ways could they help out ?
L.P . Well , 1tJhen we wrote all these men that had been stationed here , we asked them t o dig up any old photographs and what not that they might have and bring them along , send them to us so we could display them and have a chat about them . We researched locally at The Sudbury Star . Unfortunately , a lot of their old records , - especially on the 10unted Police at least , -had been destroyed . So I would hope , I would ask t hat anybody locally that might have a picture , an old picture , an article r egarding some of the people who had been stationed here or the force in general here . If they could drop that off at the offic e , 1310 Sparks Street , or just give me a call , I ' d be glad to come out and pick it up , so that we could borrm'll it and use it during the celebrat ions to display it .
G. P . Sure , and then return it as you were indicating .
L.P . Sure , yeah .
G. P . So you ' d be looking for newspaper clippings actually you ' d be looking for correspondance , diaries if , -vlouldn ' t that be great if some existed , - and ""ho knows some may well exist , - and photographs as well . Anything at all . R. G. M. P . memorabilia .
L. P . Ye s .
G. P . So there ' s a challenge to our l istening audience , and actually we ' ve found through this past year , whenever we ' ve offered that challenge that in some cases items have surfaced. So let ' s hope that ' s the case with the R. G. N. P .
L. P . mmhh .
G. P. ~lell on behalf of Inco Metals and our listening audience , thank you very much for agreeing to be interviewed today .
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I have certainly found the story of the R. C.M.P. in this area uite interesting and I ' m sure our audience has as well . Best 0 good luck on your celebrations .
L.P. Thank you .
G.P. Thank you .